Lectures part 2
by Srila Prabhupada

701107LE.BOM

Lecture Excerpt

Bombay, November 7, 1970

Prabhupāda: …śikṣāṣṭaka. Śikṣa means instruction, and aṣṭaka means eight. He has given us eight verses to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and I shall try to explain. Please hear attentively.

The first instruction is, the Lord says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. I think I have explained this several times. Again, repeatedly, just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa repeatedly. There is no, I mean to say, tiredsomeness. These boys, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours, they will never get tired. They will dance and they will chant. And you also, if you try it you will never get tired. Because it is not material. In the material world if you chant anything, any favorite name for three, four, or ten times, you will get tired. Yes. That's a fact. But because it is not material, if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra you will never get tired. The more you chant, your heart will be cleansed from all material dirty things. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And the problems of your life within this material world… These are simple words, but it requires lots of explanation. What is the problem of our life? That you do not know. The modern education never gives enlightenment what is the problem of life. That is indicated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that those who are educated, advancing in knowledge, they should know what is the problem of life. The problem of life is, as stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. One should always feel the inconvenience of taking birth, janma; mṛtyu, inconvenience of death; jarā, inconvenience of old age; and inconvenience of disease. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi.

So nobody is taking care. When they are diseased they think, "All right, I am diseased. Let me go to the doctor and he will give me some medicine, it will be cured." But he does not take seriously that "I did not want this disease. Why this disease is there? Is it not possible to make me free from the disease?" He never thinks. That means the intelligence is very low grade. Just like animal. Animal is suffering but it has no strength(?). It is brought before the slaughterhouse. If the animal is seeing that another animal is being slaughtered before him, but still he is satisfied with a morsel of grass. He will stand there eating this grass. This is animal. (end)

701110LE.BOM

Lecture Excerpt

Bombay, November 10, 1970

Prabhupāda: …but Vedas indicate that He is the supreme eternal, nityo nityānām. There are many eternals, many millions and trillions of eternals, but He is the supreme eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the supreme living creature. He is also living. He is not dead.

Devotee: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: If He is not living, how this world is working? We have no eyes to see. Bhagavad-gītā says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My superintendence." Background is God. Under His direction. In the Bible also it is said, "God created this." Yes. That's a fact. Not that there was, there might have been a chunk and it was spread like this and there was sun, there was… No. Actually sa aikṣata. In the Vedas also it is said, sa aikṣata, sa (indistinct). So these are Vedic injunction. But this is fact, God created. So we have to open our eyes to see. That is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is the process of cleansing your heart. If you cleanse your heart, then you will understand what Bible says, what Veda says. It requires to be purified. Just like a man suffering from jaundice, if you give him a piece of candy sugar, "Just taste it," he will say, "Oh, it is very bitter." But candy sugar is bitter? No. It is very sweet. And the medicine for jaundice disease is that sugar, that candy sugar. Modern science also prescribes, and it is prescribed in the Ayur Vedic medicine also. If he takes much quantity of this candy sugar water, then he becomes relieved from jaundice. And when he is relieved, then he says, "Oh, it is very sweet." The same thing. Same thing. So the modern disease of godless civilization, jaundice, can be cured by this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

701211SP.IND

Speech to Mahārāja and Mahārāṇī

and Conversations Before and After

Indore, December 11, 1970

Haṁsadūta: The following speech was recorded by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Gosvāmī Mahārāja at the Lal Bhag Palace before Their Highnesses Mahārāja Tukoji Rao Halokar, Mahārāṇī Sarmistha Bhai Halokar, on December 11, 1970 at five p.m. in Indore, Madhya Pradesh, India.

Prabhupāda: These are not legends. They are fact. Those who are not intelligent, they take it as legend. There are so many descriptions which is not within our experience-we take it as legend. Now, I gave some gentleman the example that the coconut tree, on the tree there are coconut and there are one-kilo water. Now, how the water is transported there? Where is the pipe? Where is the pumping? Because you have got experience if you want to get water high, you have to pump and you must have pipe. So where is the pipe and where is the pumping machine?

Indian man (1): In the tree.

Prabhupāda: So as you see, actually it is packed up nice, two pounds of water, very nice… And so nicely packed. How it has happened? What is the explanation of the scientists? According to their calculation, there must be pipe. There must be pumping. Somebody must be pumping. Where are all these? Then is it legend? It is fact. Now you explain how it is happening. If you are scientist, you explain how it is happening. Or you do that. Simply observation will not do. You must make experiment. You make a log standing like that, keep anything, and the, it, water must go.

Indian man (1): Keep the water there…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): And distill it.

Prabhupāda: Distill it. (laughter) Then your science will be all right. And where is that, your…? Then what is the value of your science? If you cannot explain which is within your experience and you set aside, "Oh, it is all legend," it is all foolishness. You have no knowledge about that. You admit that. How it is done, you cannot do it, or you have not attained to that standard of knowledge. You say that. Don't say it is legend. That is foolishness. You admit your weakness. If you are as equal, equal in intelligence, then explain how this water is being…

Indian man (1): I had one discussion. So I was given to understand that the pressure in the earth sends.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do it practically. Show. (laughter) No explanation will do.

Indian man (1): Only when a living thing goes into the earth, just like trees, then, only then, that thing can happen.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a living thing like that?

Indian man (1): The thing was made… That is nature.

Prabhupāda: Then the nature is more intelligent than you. So then there are many intelligent works of nature. You do not know.

Indian man (1): What is in the stars(?) is also nature.

Prabhupāda: So you have no full knowledge of nature. That's it. Then you cannot claim that you are perfect, your knowledge is perfect.

Indian man (1): This example is very interesting, coconut tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. So many things. But there is explanation in the Vedas, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working so wonderfully that it appears that exactly it is done by expert person. Now, take a flower, this flower. How nicely it is painted.

Indian man (1): Comes out of a green thing, red.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. And how perfectly it is made, coloring. The most beautiful. Nobody can suggest that further coloring this way would have been better. No. This is parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī. Automatically it is done. Automatically.

Indian man (1): And seasonal.

Prabhupāda: Seasonal.

Indian man (1): In one season the same thing will be done all the places.

Prabhupāda: All the place. In the season in millions of trees, immediately the same flower is coming out.

Indian man (1): What will bloom in summer…

Prabhupāda: So many things, there is no explanation. They cannot simply say… Bogus humbug things they can present, but there is no clear explanation. Even in our body. Now, these hairs are coming out, and what is the explanation of these rascals? These hairs are coming. You're cutting, and coming. Your energy. You do not know your energy, even, what is that energy by which the hair is coming. It is from your body. That means it is your energy. The energy is within you. You do not know how many hairs are there, although it is put in by your…

Indian man (1): Thousands, thousands of… (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is… Abodha-jāta. Therefore a living entity is called abodha-jāta, "born ignorant, born rascal, born foolish." Abodha-jāta.

Indian man (1): Abodha-jāta.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Abodha means no knowledge, and jāta means born. By birth he is fool, and he is claiming, "I am God." By birth he's a fool, and he's claiming, "I am God." Just see. This is illusion. This is the māyā. He cannot… He does not know how the hairs are growing, and he is God. Just see. "I am God." This has become a fashion, dangerous fashion. And these Māyāvādī philosophers, daridra-nārāyaṇa, this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa… Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he's Nārāyaṇa. Because you are within your coat, therefore you are coat. This is their argument. Because I am in the room, I am room. Is that very sound argument? Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he is Nārāyaṇa. Aiye.

Mahārāja. (Hindi) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] …gopeśa gopikā-kānta rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te. Your Highness, Her Highness, and Ladies and Gentlemen, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has a very intimate relationship with the kṣatriya family. Lord Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Long, long years ago He was speaking in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra that about many, many thousands of millions of years ago He spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to Vivasvān, the predominating deity of the sun globe. And from Vivasvān the sūrya-vaṁśa kṣatriyas are coming. From Vivasvān, Vaivasvata Manu, because Manu is the son of Vivasvān the sun-god. And from Manu, Mahārāja Ikṣvāku descended, and he is the original king in the Raghu-vaṁśa dynasty, wherein Lord Rāmacandra took His birth. Similarly, in the Candra-vaṁśa Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared. So from historical reference we see that when the Supreme Personality of Godhead appears on this earth, in this universe, He takes pleasure to appear in some kṣatriya family. And both Rāmacandra and Bhagavān Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared in kṣatriya families, and they acted as kṣatriya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. Kṣatriya king has got two functions. One function is to give protection and happiness to the good citizens, and another function is to kill the demons or the disturbing elements in the society. Lord Kṛṣṇa, the original form of Viṣṇu… Viṣṇu has got four hands. In two hands He has got the symbol of conchshell and lotus flower, and the other two hands He carries club and the cakra, sudarśana-cakra. So He wanted that a kṣatriya king like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira should rule over the world. That is the practically basic idea of the whole Mahābhārata and Bhagavad-gītā. So we are very much concerned to preach the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is without any malinterpretation. We cannot interpret on the words of God because religion means the words of God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. The principles of religion cannot be made by any human being as much as law cannot be made by the citizens. Law is made by the government. That law is accepted. That is obligatory. Similarly, religion means the words of God. Man-made religion has no value. The Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "Such cheating process or pseudo religion process is completely eradicated from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." Religion means obedience to the Supreme Lord. And the ruler and the king or the chief of the government is also accepted as representative of Nārāyaṇa.

There is a very nice incidence in this connection. Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was the prime minister of Nawab Hussain Shah, the then governor of Bengal, Pathan government. So when Sanātana Gosvāmī met Lord Caitanya, he decided to resign the government responsible post and take to this preaching of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Nawab, his most confidential representative was Hussain Shah. He was known as Sākara Mallika. Formerly the brāhmaṇa community was very strict. Because Sanātana Gosvāmī, although he was born in a Sarasvata brāhmaṇa family, he accepted the service of a Muhammadan king, he was rejected from the brāhmaṇa society, so practically he became Muhammadan. His name was Sākara Mallika, name was also changed. But this Sākara Mallika later on decided that he would propagate the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement started by Lord Caitanya. So when he wanted to resign, the Nawab was very much sorry, because he was right-hand man. He frankly said that "I am engaged with sporting and so many other proclivities, and you are my only representative to rule over the country. If you resign, then I shall be in great danger. I cannot accept your resignation." Then he said, "Your majesty, I am sorry. I cannot proceed any more. I shall retire from the service." Then Nawab said that "Then I shall punish you. I shall immediately arrest you. I cannot let you go." The answer of Sanātana Gosvāmī was that "You are king, representative of Nārāyaṇa, so whatever punishment you give, I shall accept." So that was the Hindu culture, that in spite of being punished by the king, he accepts the king as the representative of Nārāyaṇa. And actually, the Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He is the proprietor of everything. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the proprietor of… Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Therefore, to govern a planet there is representative of Kṛṣṇa. In the heavenly planets there is Indra. In the sun planet there is Vivasvān. In the Brahmaloka there is Lord Brahmā. Similarly, there are different planets and different representative of Kṛṣṇa.

So the Vedic civilization accepts the king or the ruler as representative of God, and he is given the… Not only in India. In other countries also, so far we know, in England also the royal family, the king and the queen is given respect as good as to the God. In every country, in Japan also. That was the system all over the world, the relationship between the citizen and the king. Gradually, with the progress of the Kali-yuga, Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the last kṣatriya king to give protection all over the world. And when he was cursed by a brāhmaṇa boy, his father regretted that "My dear boy, you have brought a scar amongst the brāhmaṇa society by cursing a king like Mahārāja Parīkṣit." So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was protected by Kṛṣṇa. He could counteract it, but still, he tolerated that punishment or the curse given by a brāhmaṇa boy. He immediately resigned from his royal throne, handing over the charge to his son. And he retired on the bank of the Ganges although he had only seven days' time to live. And during those seven days the whole Bhāgavata was recited. So, I mean to say, the royal family has got very intimate relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as soon as that was broken, because sometimes it breaks, the religious process declined and the royal power also declined. That is the whole history of the world.

Now, at the present moment we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement from the Western world so that people may become again happy and come to their original consciousness. And that is being accepted by the Western world. I have got within four years forty-two branches all over the world. In America especially, practically in every principal city I have got a branch. Especially in Los Angeles, and New York we have got the biggest temple. And in England also, London, we have got our temple, 7 Bury Place. When your Highnesses may visit London or New York or Los Angeles-most probably you visit London occasionally-I invite you to our temple at 7 Bury Place near the British Museum. It is very prominent place. And this girl in front of you, Śrīmatī Yamunā devī, she and her husband Gurudāsa is in charge of the temple. But because I have come to India, they are assisting me. She has seen the Prime Minister also, Indira Gandhi. She is very much impressed with the saṅkīrtana movement. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and patronization by the royal family is very old relationship. So I came especially in Indore to see your holinesses…, er, highnesses, that if you give us some shelter we can immediately open a branch of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I have brought with me forty American, European, Canadian students, and they will be exemplary teachers. You can see from their faces how they are advanced in spiritual consciousness, how they have accepted these principles of Vaiṣṇavism. They are no longer meat-eaters. They don't touch meat, egg, or fish, nothing of the sort. They have given up drinking habit or any kind of intoxications. They do not accept even tea, coffee and cigarette, and they do not take part in gambling, neither they have any illicit sex life. And they are observing ekādaśī days and other Vaiṣṇava festivals like Janmāṣṭamī, Śrī Rāma-navamī, and every temple, they are following the same principles. And gradually we are increasing the number. The Western boys and girls, my students, are all between twenty and thirty years old. You will find none of them more than twenty-five, twenty-six years old. So they are… In Japan also… Here is a Japanese boy also. So the world is taking very serious situation. All over the world they are appreciating. Your Highnesses will be pleased to see how many books we have published. Perhaps you have seen one of them, Kṛṣṇa. That is published in two parts. We have got our magazine, Back to Godhead, in five languages: English, French, German, and Japanese, Hindi, and Bengali. Of course Bengali is going to be out. Hindi is already out. So we are doing these activities, and we have a mind that we may open a center in a nice city like Indore under your patronization. Although I know that at the present moment the time is different, still, if you like, you can help us in so many ways. In our Indian parable it is said that "A dead elephant is also one lakh of rupees." Elephant, living or dead, still, it is valuable. Mara hati laksa (?).

So this movement, from very old days, beginning from that sun-god, and again five thousand years ago between Lord Kṛṣṇa and the Pāṇḍavas, the pious kings. So this movement has got very intimate relationship with the kṣatriya kings. So I would request Your Highness… Both, you are sitting. If you kindly give us a little place here in Indore, we can immediately start a nice center. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that,

yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā

sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā

mano-rathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ

[SB 5.18.12]

That "If anyone has got devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he develops all the good qualities." Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī. Because he was a devotee, he did not distinguish the king, whether he was Muhammadan or Hindu. He immediately accepted that "You are representative of Kṛṣṇa." That is the version. Arjuna, because he was a devotee, although he was in the battlefield, he was insulted, his wife was insulted, his kingdom was usurped, still, he said, "Better not to fight and kill my kinsmen." That goodness was not found on the other side, Duryodhana. Because Arjuna was a devotee, he was compassionate with his brothers, not to kill them. But Kṛṣṇa wanted that this fighting must go on because He wanted to install Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the pious king, on the throne. So therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and the support of the royal family is very old relationship. And at the present moment people need this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very badly. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world is going to hell. And you can practically see how they are changing, how this movement is changing character and mentality of the population. So I have come here. I wish that both of you will be kindly enough to patronize this movement to your best capacity.

Thanking you, Your Highnesses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Vande rūpa-sanātanau-raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. This movement is pleasing both to the dhīra and adhīra. There are two classes of men. Dhīra means those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and adhīra means those who are advancing in the process of sense gratification. So these two classes of men… Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we can please both classes of men, the dhīras and the adhīras. Anyone we invite. I have spread this movement not restricting them, that "You can enter in my class after being qualified." No. Whatever you are, come. Dhīrādhīra. You come, chant, have musical instruments, plays, enjoy, dance, take prasādam and go home. And if you like, you read literatures, if you are intelligent. So everything was given to them. And they are American boys and girls. They are intelligent, qualified. So they are coming.

Yamunā: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am trying to send this girl to Russia, Moscow, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Yamunā: But I think it is very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: Not… I don't… We got a invitation from Czechoslovakia. That is also Communist country, but there the people invited us to open a center.

Yamunā: The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra was number one in Czechoslovakia. We have one record. I just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa over and over, the mahā-mantra, and in that country it was the most popular of all records.

Prabhupāda: In Germany also. We sold fifty thousand records in Germany. And there is another record, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. That is also selling very nicely. And recently another record you produced? What is that?

Yamunā: Yes, that will be a long-playing record, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's name is Bhaja Hūre Mana, Mana Hū Re.

Prabhupāda: Ah, bhaja hūre mana, śrī nanda-nandana, abhaya-caraṇāravinda re.

Yamunā: And saṁsāra prayers, vande 'ham prayers.

Prabhupāda: So that is not yet out?

Yamunā: Well, from what I understood, Mr. Harrison wants to get it out before Christmas, but I have not heard from Śyāmasundara what has developed.

Prabhupāda: There is one boy, George Harrison. Perhaps you know his name. He is one of the Beatles.

Indian man (2): Harrison, yes.

Prabhupāda: Harrison, yes. He paid me nineteen thousand dollars for my publication work, and he is a very good boy. And he is helping in pushing on our record. He is very popular.

Indian man (2): Very popular.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And he has got to sing with him. Yes. [break] …in London I was guest in one of the Beatles' palace. They have got each one a big, big palace. So we shall all take leave, Mahārāja. Thank you. [break]

Yamunā: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: She likes our movement.

Yamunā: Well, she had to.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) And she has seen that house also.

Yamunā: She knows that we're something

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Eight to nine we have engagement.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: Tonight we have another engagement, eight to nine.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. So give me cold water. She is countrywoman. She is also American.

Yamunā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom she is coming? Where father's, father's house, this?

Yamunā: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So Muktānanda, how are you feeling? You are feeling all right?

Muktānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So give him kunti. Purchase kunti from the market. (japa) If that kind of mṛdaṅga can be purchased, you find out. That's very nice.

Revatīnandana: They have to be brought from Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: No, the mṛdaṅga which you played.

Revatīnandana: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: They're from Calcutta?

Revatīnandana: That's what it says.

Haṁsadūta: It's a very nice drum.

Prabhupāda: Calcutta, there are many good manufacturers of musical instruments. Bengal is famous for music and hair.

Girl: And hair.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Hair?

Prabhupāda: There is oil in (?). Bengali women, they have got hair like this. My sister had so bunch. (laughter) Black hair, and very long. So Bengal is famous for hair and music.

Devotee: Swamijī… (?)

Prabhupāda: Ah, no. This is for distribution of prasāda here. [break] …hungry, hungry man. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness man, never he is hungry. If you are hungry, come, enjoy. We are never hungry. We are overfed.

Yamunā: Yes. It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: We have to fast practically by feeding others. (laughter) You are after food; we are rejecting food. Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: Yes. We're having trouble avoiding it.

Revatīnandana: We're trying to reject it.

Haṁsadūta: I think all of us had thought when you called us to India, "Now we will have to starve." So we came, and there is so much to eat.

Revatīnandana: When we left New York City, the last Sunday, Ṛṣi-kumāra cooked a tremendous feast. So we ate until we couldn't move, 'cause we thought it was our last feast. We thought there'd never be any more prasādam. (laughter) Now we have to…

Prabhupāda: There was a famine in India in 1942, big famine. I particularly inquired among the disciples of my Guru Mahārāja, and even the remote village, they said that "We have no difficulty." No. And another, there was a havoc, earthquake, in Bihar sometime in 1933 or that… And one of our Godbrother, Mr. Munshi Chatterjee, when he heard that quarter is completely demolished, so he was in the office. He was thinking, "What shall I do by going home? There is no more home. Everything is…" Then he said, "Let me go and see." And when he came there, only his house was left. Only his house. All house dismantled. The only. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. That we have seen in many instances. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is never vanquished.

Devotee: Yes. We were thinking that he was getting special protection from the Lord.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. So be sincere, do your duty. You will never be in trouble. Never.

Himāvatī: All the members of this family are attracted to you, Prabhupāda. They are becoming more and more attracted every day.

Prabhupāda: But some of them are very envious that I went there with forty rupees, and I got so many boys and girls, children, they become envious. Profitable. They began to say, "Oh, it is profitable business." Is it not? So I said, "All right, I leave your country." If the Kṛṣṇa is there, I can make profit anywhere. All right. So you have to wait?

Haṁsadūta: They should come any minute.

Prabhupāda: So all our men are ready?

Haṁsadūta: We're all ready.

Prabhupāda: Four, six, eight, nine. Gopāla is sick? Just see how he is.

Devotee: He has a strong fever today.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then taking rest completely. Come on. Where the box are?

Haṁsadūta: I haven't prepared it.

Prabhupāda: You should prepare.

Haṁsadūta: They have to be at least three or four…

Himāvatī: Reinforce the handle so it's stronger.

Prabhupāda: You do one thing. Have you got rope?

Himāvatī: Rope? Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bring it. And do…

Haṁsadūta: Bring it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, rope.

Haṁsadūta: You mean put a… Yes, I'll be able to that.

Prabhupāda: This palace is nice.

Himāvatī: Yes. Run down, though. I noticed that the upholstery was torn.

Prabhupāda: It is very old.

Haṁsadūta: That knife, Prabhupāda? You have that knife?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can give to anyone in this way. Aiye… (Hindi) (end)

710216LE.GOR

Lecture at Kṛṣṇa Niketan

Gorakhpur, February 16, 1971

Haṁsadūta: Morning lecture, recorded the morning of February 16, 1971, at Śrī Kṛṣṇa Niketan, Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh.

Prabhupāda: In this connection, the comments of Śrīdhara Swami is very important. He is putting question, nānu sakṛd ucaritena nāmābhyasena kathāṁ sarva-pāpa-kṣayaṁ syāt, śraddhā-bhakty-avṛtyad eva adityader api vidhānāḥ. Śrīdhara Swami says that simply by chanting without any regulative principles, one becomes liberated. So how is that? So he replies himself also, "No, there are regulative principles." The idea is that chanting of the holy name is so powerful that it can immediately liberate the vibrator. But because he is prone to fall down again, therefore, what to speak of others who are following the regulative principles? This is the idea. It is not that… Just like the sahajiyās. They think that "If chanting is so powerful, I shall chant sometimes." But he does not know that after chanting, he is again falling down by willingly. This is willing, I mean to say, willful disobedience. Willful disobedience. Because I know that "I have chanted the holy name. Now my all sinful reaction of my life is now vanished. Then why shall I commit again sinful activities?" That is the natural conclusion. But if one concludes like this: "Now I have chanted, I have confessed my sinful activities in the church. Let me go now again, begin my sinful activities," such kind of willful negligence is very, very dangerous. Nāmnād balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. He's the greatest sinner, one who utilizes the holy name as a means of counteracting or neutralizing the sinful effects. They are very willful sinners. That should not be done. It is a fact that as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, your all sinful reaction of life is immediately neutralized or vanquished. But you should not do again. That is the idea.

Nānu sakṛd ucaritena nāmābhyasena kathāṁ sarva-pāpa-kṣayaḥ syāt, śraddhā-bhakty-avṛtyād eva vidhānaḥ. Tathā hi, sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan bhaktyā duḥkha-grāmād vimucyate. He's giving quotation from many scriptures in which it is stated, sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan… Sāyaṁ tri-sandhya, morning, noon, and evening, prātar gṛṇan, daily chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Sāyaṁ prātar gṛṇan bhaktyā, with devotion and faith, duḥkha-grāmād vimucyate. Duḥkha-grāmād means volumes of miserable condition of life. One can avoid volumes of miserable condition of life simply by chanting. Anudinam idam ādareṇa śṛṇvan iti. When it is stated anudinam ādareṇa, with great care and attention one should chant. Not that we should utilize the chanting of holy name for my sense gratification, that "I commit sin, and again I chant, and it will be counteracted. So again I chant, again I commit." No. That is not allowed. Anudinam. Śrīdhara Swami… Anudinam idam ādareṇa śṛṇvanti. Or śṛṇvan ādareṇa, with great care. Because the name, the holy name, and the person Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name-they are identical. So one should be so much careful and, I mean to say, faithful that as soon as you are chanting, you should know that "Kṛṣṇa is dancing on my tongue." Therefore how much careful and respectful we should be. It is very responsible(?).

Suppose Kṛṣṇa is here… Just like we offer so respectful obeisances to the Deity. Similarly, as the Deity is arcā-vigraha, incarnation… This Deity which you are worshiping as the arcā-vigraha, arcā means worshipable incarnation. Because we cannot see Kṛṣṇa with our present eyes, material eyes; therefore it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He has appeared before us in a form which we can see. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. It is not that Kṛṣṇa is different from this Deity. That is mistake. Those who cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa's potency, they think that this is idol, and therefore they say "Idol worship." It is not idol worship. The same example, as I have given many times, that the postbox, or mailbox on the street, it is post office. If somebody thinks, "It is a box…" It is a box, but it is a post office at the same time. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everything. The bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ kham… [Bg. 7.4]. Kṛṣṇa says, "My energy." As you cannot separate energy and the energetic, Kṛṣṇa is everything. So Kṛṣṇa can accept your service through everything. Don't consider that "This is metal." The metal is also Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should know bhūmi…, bhūmi… Metal, what is metal? Metal means earth. Kṛṣṇa says, first of all says, bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ: "They are My all energies." So from argument's point of view, Kṛṣṇa is everything. Therefore Kṛṣṇa can accept service through everything. So this Deity, vigraha, either made of wood, made of stone or earth or metal or painting, they are not different from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has got the potency to accept your service through this medium. So they are not pictures or they are not ordinary idols. You should never… Similarly, a sound vibration. Kṛṣṇa is present through sound vibration because the five elements, ākāśa, the sky… Sky, within sky, there is sound. So from argumentative point of view also, nobody can deny that this chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is not identical. It is identical. Because identical… Everything is identical.

So as soon as you approach the Deity or the name, you should know fully well that Kṛṣṇa is present. Kṛṣṇa is… Therefore we should worship the Deity with great attention, as much as Kṛṣṇa is present. And similarly, we should worship the holy name with great attention. We should not be inattentive. Suppose Kṛṣṇa personally comes, personally He is here. Suppose personally, as you think of personally, personally comes. If you do not become respectful, is that all right? No. You should be very much respectful. Even a respectable person, ordinary person, a big man or a rich man or a king comes, we become so much respectful. And what about Kṛṣṇa when He's present as arcā-mūrti or as the holy name? These are the realization point of view: Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His quality, His pastimes. When you hear about Kṛṣṇa, that is also Kṛṣṇa. Actually, when you are reading Kṛṣṇa book, Kṛṣṇa is fighting with demons, that is also His pastime. So Kṛṣṇa is present. So you should be very attentive and worship this hearing. Unless we come to this point, there is lack of realization what is Kṛṣṇa.

Anudinam ādareṇa śṛṇvan iti śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ dhyānaṁ harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Here also, explicitly mentioned, harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa's activities are all wonderful. As you read from the Kṛṣṇa book, He is fighting with many demons, and His activities are wonderful. Just like Kāliya-damana. A boy of five years old or six years old jumping in the Yamunā, and the great snake immediately coils Him, as if it will devour Kṛṣṇa. And from the shore, all the members of Vṛndāvana, they become fainted: "Now Kṛṣṇa is gone." But He was fighting with him and kicking on the head, and blood was oozing out from the mouth of the serpent. So these things are wonderful things-Bakāsura, Aghāsura, Śiśupāla, Kaṁsa. Kṛṣṇa was boy of sixteen years old when He was combating a very powerful wrestler, Cāṇūra. Everything… Everyone present, they thought it unlawful that "Kṛṣṇa is so young, and such a big stalwart and strong wrestler is engaged with Him for wrestling. This is not good. This is not good." In protest, so many people left the arena. And Nanda Mahārāja began to think, "I should have locked up Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana instead of allowing Him to come here. Oh, so much injustice." But Kṛṣṇa killed them. Not only killed them, the wrestlers who were engaged by Kaṁsa, He immediately dragged Kaṁsa from his throne and simply by fisting He killed him. There are so many wonderful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's activities are called adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. It is never expected to be done by any human being. How it can be done by a human being? He's all-powerful. He can do anything and everything. And because the persons with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore these Kṛṣṇa's activities are to them as allegories or mythology. Because they are rascals, they think it is mythology. It is not mythology. It is actual fact, but they are wonderful, because it is being enacted by Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore it is stated here, harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ, janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca tad-arthe akhila-ceṣṭitam ity adi asmin eva purāṇe tatra tatra pathyate. Janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca. Hearing about Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa's appearance, His so-called janma… Janma means birth. So Kṛṣṇa is unborn. He is nityo nityānām. He's… Just like we have no janma, we have no appearance. It is simply change of dress. It is not death. As it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā that vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]-if I change my dress, that is not my death. This is easily understood. Similarly, transmigration of the soul from one body to another, that is not death. But because we have no eyes to see the soul, how it is changing from one body… Just like we cannot see how the baby is coming to another body, childhood, boyhood. We cannot see. We see that the body is changing. No. He's changing from one body to another. That is the version of the Bhagavad-gītā. But we say that body's growing. Why body's growing? If the body has got any growing power, then why the body of a dead child does not grow? The body has no growing power. It is actually changed. But because… Just like in the spool of your film, there are many pictures. But because you see under certain condition, you see one picture. It is very easy to understand. Actually, the pictures are changing, different pictures, and we are seeing one picture. We are seeing the picture is moving in one picture. Similarly, this body is continuously, every moment, there is different body, different body, different body, every moment, but we are seeing one body. This is our ignorance. But we are changing body. Every moment we are changing body. The spool is going on. The exact example is that, like that, the film. Every second, changing one picture, one picture, one picture, one picture. And it appears that it is only one picture. One who does not know how the machine, cinematographic machine is working-the foolish persons-they say, they think that the picture is one and it is moving. No. It is changing. Similarly, the body is also changing. The exact example is changing of dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. That is the exact word used in the Bhagavad-gītā. So even for an ordinary living being, we cannot see how the body is changing, how the living entity is changing from body to another. It is so swiftly, every moment, every second, it is taking place. How you can see? So there is no death; it is simply changing.

So if for ordinary living entity there is no death, how Kṛṣṇa can be appearing and dying? No. Therefore, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. One who knows in truth how Kṛṣṇa is appearing, how Kṛṣṇa is disappearing, he is learned. He is learned in the spiritual science, and for him, as soon as he becomes learned, well-versed in the spiritual science, Kṛṣṇa science, he immediately becomes liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. Because one who has understood Kṛṣṇa in truth, he is liberated person. Therefore he is guru. Guru cannot be a conditioned soul. Guru must be liberated. Because without complete knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, without being free from the contamination of the three modes of material nature… One cannot understand Kṛṣṇa on account of his being engrossed with these three material modes of nature. And Kṛṣṇa says, "One who understand Me rightly, he becomes immediately free." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Just like we are changing our dress or our different bodies every moment, so Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā deham. The last change, last change… Ordinarily, those who are not liberated, those who are conditioned still, they die. Die means they change this body and accept another material body. Another material body. But one who is liberated by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he also changes his body and he accepts immediately a spiritual body. And so long he lives, that is also spiritual body. That is spiritual body in the (this) sense because that body is engaged in spiritual activities only. There is no material activity; therefore that is spiritual. The same example: the iron rod, although it is rod, because it has become red hot it is no longer rod; it is fire. Similarly, this material body becomes spiritualized when one is completely Kṛṣṇa conscious, because he has no more activity of this material body. His actions are… The same example, try to follow. When it has become so hot, red hot, that it is no more acting as iron rod, it is acting as fire. Similarly, and when he changes this body also, he immediately… Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Then he does not come in material body. Immediately, a spiritual body develops. As this material body has developed from the spirit soul, on the platform of spirit soul, similarly, what is the difficulty to understand a spiritual body can also grow? There is no difficulty. So our, this material body, everyone knows that it grows or it changes from one body to another because the spirit soul is there. Similarly, one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, as it is said by Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā deham: as soon as this body is given up, immediately, another, spiritual body is offered.

That spiritual body… Sanātana Gosvāmī has said that those who are being liberated from this material world, they are offered a spiritual body where Kṛṣṇa-līlā is going on. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Vṛndāvana-līlā, or as Kṛṣṇa manifested His different pastimes when He was present, that is going on eternally. As soon as He leaves this universe, in another universe His līlā becomes manifest. Kṛṣṇa is born… Kṛṣṇa is born here at Janmāṣṭamī, and as soon as Kṛṣṇa is taken to Gokula by Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa is seen in another universe, born again. Just like our sun. As soon as it rises at six o'clock or, say, five o'clock… So as soon as here five o'clock finished, in another place five o'clock begins. But it is going on. Ananta-cakra. The five o'clock is permanent. Anywhere, there must be some five o'clock. Anywhere, there must be six o'clock. Anywhere, there must be seven o'clock. Just like the twenty-four hours is going on. You cannot say that the sun's rising at five o'clock, because it is finished within your view, it is finished. No. It is not like that. The five o'clock is permanent to the sun. If it is so possible to a material thing, why not Kṛṣṇa? Therefore it is called nitya-līlā. Nitya-līlā means eternally Janmāṣṭamī is going on. Eternally everything is going on, eternally. So one who is liberated from this world and he is given the spiritual body, he's immediately transferred to the place where Kṛṣṇa's līlā is going on. Just like in Vṛndāvana, when Kṛṣṇa was present, all the Vṛndāvana-vāsīs, they were not ordinary men; they were liberated. They transferred to associate with Kṛṣṇa, practice. And after this complete practice, they were transferred to the Goloka Vṛndāvana. So therefore, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says about the boys, cowherd boys, playing with Kṛṣṇa, kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. "Oh, how much these boys have accumulated their pious activities! Now they are transferred here to play with Kṛṣṇa." Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ.

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā

dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena

māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa

sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ

[SB 10.12.11]

"Oh, these boys, it appears that they are cowherd boys playing with Kṛṣṇa," appreciating, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. "Oh, how much they have accumulated their pious activities so that now they have got chance to play with Kṛṣṇa personally!" They are not ordinary cowherd boys. So, similarly, all the gopīs, all the cowherd boys, they are not ordinary men. They've given chance after many, many births accumulating the devotional service. Devotional service so nice. In one life they can be benefited with that position as cowherd boy, as he likes-as friend, as gopīs. That is possible. Therefore, the devotees are so much austere, so much, I mean to say, penanceful, that "This life we shall attain this position." One is hoping to be Kṛṣṇa's friend, one is hoping to be gopī, one is hoping to be friends of Yaśodā. So everything is possible, pañca-rasa, the five rasas in Vṛndāvana. One is hoping to be a tree there, a grass there, a flower there.

So this is possible. So… And Kṛṣṇa says, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ mad-yājino… [Bg. 9.25]. "Those who are cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they come to Me. They come to Me." So where is the difficulty to understand the whole philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is very simple. Everything is there. We have to understand, and we have to be very serious and sincere. The thing is there.

Thank you very much.

Devotee (1): During the time when the living entity is transferred from one body to another, is he always fully conscious of the subtle facts?

Prabhupāda: Are you not conscious of your childhood?

Devotee (1): Am I conscious of… My body's being constantly changing?

Prabhupāda: You are conscious, but you do not perceive it.

Devotee (1): Can the living entity perceive the situation at this time, when he's being transferred from one body to another?

Prabhupāda: So why you are thinking… Are you not assured that you are not transferred? You are not sure? When there is practically it is happening, what is the reason of your being doubtful?

Devotee (1): There's no doubtful. It's just here. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So many things happening in your body; are you aware of all these things?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then, similarly, it is happening. Why do you ask such question? So many things are happening in your body. You do not know how it is happening. Therefore it is called prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. The nature is doing. You are completely in the hands of the nature. How, after shaving, how your hairs are growing, do you know?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It is completely under the hands of the nature. Similarly, everything is. As you cannot explain, cannot know how the hairs are growing, similarly, you cannot know how you are changing. It is, by nature, it is being done so nicely. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala… [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. It is taking place. A flower is fructified. Can you explain how it is fructified? It is taking place. The foolish persons, they say "Automatically." No. The machine is so expert that it is taking… The machine is working. The nature is working, but we are not so expert to understand. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. We are thinking it is taking automatically. No. It is not. It is taking very perfectly, and we are so ignorant that we cannot understand. We should always know our position, how much we are ignorant. I am claiming I am the… "It is my body." How your nails are growing, can you explain? Why there is no sensation in the nail? So many things you are unaware, even of your body. So how you can be aware that how your body is changing? You have to learn, therefore, from authorities, "It is being done." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra… [Bg. 2.13]. That is the process of knowledge. You have to know from the authorities how things are there. The person who is actually enacting, you have to know from Him. Otherwise, there is no possibility of knowledge.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

Prakṛti. You are walking, you are walking, and immediately you become paralyzed. But while walking you think, "I am walking. I am walking." You are not walking. You are walking under some mechanical arrangement with the help of the material nature, but you are thinking, "I am walking." In every step, in every action, you are completely dependent. Don't you think that "I am walking"? Now when there is some trouble or if the hands or leg become paralyzed, now if you are walking, then you repair it. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Why do don't you read this Bhagavad-gītā?

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

What is the meaning of this? Yantrārūḍhāni. Just like you are sitting on a carriage, and the driver is taking you anywhere he likes. You are just like that. There is no control how you are being taken. Yantrārūḍhāni. Yantra means just like carriage, a machine. You are sitting on a machine, and under the direction of the Lord, Īśvara… He is sitting in your heart. So māyā is driver, and Kṛṣṇa is dictating, "Drive this person in such and such body," and māyā is there, offering the body. Kṛṣṇa is seeing you, that you are doing, you require such and such body, and He's ordering māyā that "You give him such and such body." So māyā is offering you. You are simply under the control. You are simply thinking, "I shall do that, I shall do that," and everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's order. So you think of Kṛṣṇa; then Kṛṣṇa will give you another body, spiritual body.

Devotee (2): Every moment we are changing our body.

Prabhupāda: That is, the medical science says. Even medical science, they say the blood corpuscles are changing.

Devotee (2): But we don't feel it so much.

Prabhupāda: You don't feel so many things. That I have explained. That does not mean it is not taking place.

Devotee (2): No, I want to say, like at the point of death we are also changing to another body. Do we feel that then?

Prabhupāda: That I explained. You don't feel, even the change takes place. Yes.

Devotee (2): Even in death…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, you said that at the time of death, if one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's given a spiritual body. Is the spiritual body… You said it has been created. Originally, we had a spiritual body, and then we fell under the…

Prabhupāda: I don't say created. It develops.

Devotee (3): Oh. It's the same one that was an eternal body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As the material body has developed for your material consciousness, similarly, spiritual body will develop for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Devotee (3): And it's the same spiritual body that we had before we came into the material world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are one ten-thousandth part of the point. How this big body has developed? It has developed materially. Similarly, it will develop spiritually. What is the difficulty to understand? Is there any difficulty still?

Devotee (3): No.

Prabhupāda: You are one ten-thousandth part of a point, and you have developed a big body like elephant. (laughter) Or Brahmānanda Swami. (laughter) (chuckles) When he was getting fat, I was very much thinking that "This boy is getting fat." To get fatty is not very favorable for spiritual understanding. My Guru Mahārāja said. If you'll say some disciple is getting fat, he'll immediately say, "Oh, he is getting fat?" Yes. Spiritual life does not mean very fat. That is an impediment. That means materially he's becoming developed. (laughter) That's a fact. So we should not eat more to get fat. You should simply eat to keep yourself (chuckling) body and soul together. Not to get fatty. No. That's not good. Of course, we are not fatty.

Devotee (1): You told us about that Bhāratī Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāratī Mahārāja. (chuckles)

Yamunā: What was that?

Prabhupāda: My Godbrother, there was one Bharati Mahārāja. He was… (laughter) So Prabhupāda used to criticize, "Oh, this man is getting fatty." And actually, he was not very… Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. You have to take shelter; therefore you are marginal. You have to take shelter of the material energy or the spiritual energy. When you take shelter of the material energy, you materially develop. When you take spiritual energy, you spiritually develop. That's all. Therefore your position is marginal. Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Mahātmā, those who are mahātmās, they have given up. The Māyāvādī philosopher thinks that as soon as he has given up, liberated from the matter, now he has become God. No. You give up this material energy, you have to take up spiritual energy. Mahāmāyā, yogamāyā. Yes.

Revatīnandana: I've experienced that the more we know about these different processes, when we speak them, the people are impressed that we are understanding scientifically. So sometimes we ask a question, it is not so much out of doubt, but we just want to understand that…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That should be. Yes. That is good. Paripraśnena. Tad viddhi paripraśnena, praṇipātena, and sevayā. The questions should be put, guided by two principles: surrender and service. That is the way.

All right. (end)

710217LE.GOR

Lecture

Gorakhpur, February 17, 1971

Prabhupāda: …giving quotations from many scriptures about the supreme position of chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ dhyānaṁ

harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ

janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca

tad-arthe 'khila ceṣṭitam

Ity ādi asmin eva purāṇe tatra tatra pathyate. So we were discussing janma-karma. Janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's quality, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Kṛṣṇa's entourage, everything. Kṛṣṇa's abode, everything, they are one Absolute Truth. So any of these items you chant, it is as good as chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference. As in the material world there is difference between the object and the name or other paraphernalia, in the spiritual world they are all the same. That we require to understand. Because we have no spiritual understanding at the present moment, we sometimes are misguided, thinking… Just like Kṛṣṇa's pastimes with the gopīs, some rascal people take it as ordinary dealings between young boys and girls. But it is all transcendental. It requires, I mean to say, service attitude to understand this. The whole thing, the basic principle of understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness is surrender. Nobody can understand except one who has fully surrendered him… Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Sevonmukhe. One whose attitude is to serve, not to challenge, to him only, Kṛṣṇa is revealed, not to others. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. These blunt senses, material senses, they cannot understand śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi, beginning from Kṛṣṇa's name. Because devotional service begins from this chanting of Kṛṣṇa's name. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Not of others, only of Viṣṇu. People are imitating. There are so many imitations, that "Why Kṛṣṇa's name? Let there be Kālī's name be chanted." And there are so many rascals, they say that "Either you chant Kali's name or Kṛṣṇa's name, it is all the same." The śāstra does not say. Śāstra says, harer nāmānukīrtanam. Here is also Śrīdhara Swami quotes from śāstras. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ dhyānaṁ harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa's activities are all wonderful, adbhuta. No human being can do like that. Harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ, karmaṇaḥ, janma-karma-guṇa…, tad-arthe akhila-ceṣṭitam. At the same time, tad-arthe, for Him, for His sake, akhila-ceṣṭitam… Any endeavor for pushing on Kṛṣṇa's glories, that is also as good as chanting the holy name. When you go out for canvassing, for pushing on this movement, people may not see that you are not chanting and dancing. Suppose you are canvassing for a life member. That topic is also as good as chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra because akhila-ceṣṭitam. One's life must be dedicated simply for Kṛṣṇa's service.

So any way you do it, it is all the same. Absolute. Tad-arthe akhila-ceṣṭitam, ity ady asmin eva purāṇe tatra tatra pathyate. Śrīdhara Swami says, "In this Purāṇa, Mahā Purāṇa, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, these things are explained everywhere, as well as these things are explained in all other Vedic scriptures. Purāṇantare ca pāpa-kṣayaś ca bhavati smaratāṁ tam ahar-niśam iti. These are the authoritative statements; therefore, we have to follow the ācāryas. They pick up nice authorized verses from various Vedic literature and present before you. So Śrīdhara Swami says, purāṇantare. In other Purāṇas also it is stated, pāpa-kṣayaś ca bhavati smaratāṁ tam ahar-niśam. "Anyone who is always absorbed in Your thought, no material scene can effect him, cannot touch him." Pāpa-kṣayam. "And if he has any sinful activities in his past life, that also becomes nullified." Pāpa-kṣayam. Pāpa-kṣayaṁ bhavati smaratāṁ tam ahar-niśam. "Anyone who is always…" Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā that yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā: "One who is always thinking of Me within himself, he is first-class yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ [Bg. 6.47]. There is no need of speculating. Simply this easy process, thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. All big, big yogis, there may be, but a person who is always absorbed in thought of Kṛṣṇa within himself, he is greater than all such big, big yogis. Greater than the greatest yogi. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā. Mad-gata means his life is so molded that he cannot stay without thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Mad-gata. He has become absorbed. That is samādhi. Mad-gatenāntarātmanā śraddhāvān. Not for artificial makeshow, but śraddhāvān, with faith and love. Śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ sa me yuktatamo mataḥ.

But how this stage can be attained? This stage can be attained only by persons who have developed pure love of God. Just like… It is very easy to understand. If you love somebody, always you'll think of him. In this material world also, the so-called love… If a boy loves some girl or a girl loves some boy, naturally, he thinks always of him. So to think of Kṛṣṇa always means you must develop your love. That is there within yourself, everyone. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha. It is eternally truth, eternally fact, that you have got your love for Kṛṣṇa within yourself. Simply you have to revive. That process is easy, very easy. The chanting. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The glittering thing, Kṛṣṇa, or the Kṛṣṇa light. Kṛṣṇa light is within everyone. Nitya-siddha: eternally truth. But it is covered by material contamination. And by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra these nasty, dirty things will be cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. This is polishing. Polishing. Just like mirror, you polish; you can see very nicely the reflection of your nice face. Similarly, if you polish your heart by chanting, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, then immediately you develop your dormant love of Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as the dormant love of Kṛṣṇa is awakened, immediately you are liberated. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam.

Liberation means to get out of the blazing fire of this material existence. That is liberation. It is simply change of consciousness, that I am thinking in so many ways, my consciousness is polluted in so many ways. But when you think that you are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, that is your real constitutional position, then that very understanding makes you liberated, immediately. Pāpa-kṣaya bhavati smaratāṁ tam ahar-niśam. Tatraiva ca tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇu jagan-maṅgalam amhasā… Jagan-maṅgalam amhasā. Śrīdhar Swami gives his comment, tasmāt, therefore; sankīrtanaṁ viṣṇu jagan-maṅgalam amhasā. The world (is) full of sinful reactions. If this saṅkīrtana movement is pushed on there will be peace, there will be auspicity all over the world. It is not that we have introduced a new thing. It is sanctioned by the śāstras and accepted by the authorities. Tasmāt. He said, tasmāt sankirtanaṁ viṣṇu. Viṣṇu, not others. Not for the, of the demigods. Viṣṇu. Saṅkīrtanam viṣṇu jagat maṅgalam amhasā, mahatām api kauravya viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam ity ādi. It is not only good for the sinful persons. Those who are exalted mahātmās, they should not think… They cannot think. If they are actually mahātmās, they cannot think like that. But there are so-called mahātmās. They think that they are very much exalted, they do not require this saṅkīrtanam. Śrīdhara Swami says that this saṅkīrtana movement is not only for the persons who are sinful, but mahatāṁ api. Mahatāṁ api sarveṣāṁ. That is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Everywhere.

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā

mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ

tīvreṇa bhakti-yogena

yajeta puruṣaṁ param

So Śrīdhara Swami also says mahatām api kauravya viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam ity adina. Mahatām. Śrīdhara Swami says those who are thinking that "I am liberated, I am very exalted," that imagination is also not perfect. Unless one takes to this process of loving platform, there is no possibility of being liberated. And Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19]. Jñānavān, those who are speculating on knowledge, they are called jñānavān, jñānī. But that jñāna, that speculative knowledge is not sufficient to give you liberation unless he takes to devotional service. They may think that they have elevated themselves very high by speculating process, but unless they take to this surrendering process to Kṛṣṇa…

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

This is the verdict of all Vedic scriptures. Mahatām api kauravya… Samyak saṅkīrtanād eva mucyate. Samyak saṅkīrtanād eva mucyate. Simply imagining that "I have become liberated," that will not help. Māyā is so strong that simply your concoction that "I have become liberated" will not do. Not fanciful imagination. One has to take actual process for becoming liberated. That is done, here Śrīdhara Swami says, samyak kīrtanād eva mucyate. Simply by perfection of saṅkīrtana, one can become liberated. Not otherwise. Kiṁ ca tathasati kim api manvadaya dvadāsa, dvadāsadini smareyaḥ (?).

Now argument may be forwarded that if the simple process, simply by chanting the holy name, one becomes liberated, then why there are so many śāstras, manyadini? Manu is supposed to be the leader of giving all śāstras. There are twenty kinds of śāstras, dharma-śāstra. Vimsati dharma-śāstra. So what is the necessity of these dharma-śāstras? Actually, there is no need of dharma-śāstra. Kṛṣṇa also says the same thing. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. There are twenty kinds of dharma-śāstras, religious principles, in the Vedic literature, beginning from Manu, Parāśara, and other great, great sages. So here, Śrīdhara Swami is also putting forward the argument that if simply by chanting the holy name of God, one becomes liberated-even mahātmās also, they have to take to this process-then why, what is the necessity of so many, twenty kinds of dharma-śāstras? So from the conclusion of various Vedic literatures, there is no need of studying even the dharma-śāstras. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]? Sarva-dharmān means the dharma-śāstra also. Simply surrender. But people are so rigid and so, I mean to say, doggish, that they do not like to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. For them only, so many different ways of convincing. Otherwise, the whole purpose is to induce him to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vidyam. Kṛṣṇa says. All these Vedic literatures, they are meant for bending the stubborn atheist to come to this point. Therefore there are so many ways of… Otherwise, the ultimate goal is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and chant His holy name.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

710218LE.GOR

Lecture

Gorakhpur, February 18, 1971

Haṁsadūta: The following lecture was recorded the evening of February 17th, 1971, Śrī Kṛṣṇa-niketana in Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh. [break]

Prabhupāda: This is the real picture of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead: rādhā-mādhava kuñja-behari. Kṛṣṇa has no other business. Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya padam ekaṁ na gacchati. Kṛṣṇa means original Kṛṣṇa, or the ādi-puruṣaṁ, which is known as ādi-puruṣaṁ. He's always in Vṛndāvana, but He expands Himself as Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha, Pradyumna, so many, unlimited expansions. But the original form is in Vṛndāvana.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. These are the Vedic evidences. Kṛṣṇa Himself says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7].

That Supreme Personality of Godhead is always engaged in pleasure potency. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa. This is explained by Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī:

rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī śaktir asmād

ekātmānāv api bhuvi purā deha-bhedaṁ gatau tau

caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam adhunā tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptaṁ

vande rādhā-bhāva dyuti-suvalitaṁ caitanya saṁjñākhyam

[Cc. Ādi 1.5]

So Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, when He wants to enjoy, He exhibits His pleasure potency. He is Paraṁ Brahman. For brahmānanda, for enjoying the transcendental pleasure, here we see many, many great saintly persons, sages, they give up this material enjoyment for enjoying spiritual enjoyment, brahmānanda, which is known as brahmānanda. Brahmānanda means unlimited, unlimited ānanda. Here in this world, there is a reflection of ānanda, of brāhmaṇanda, but it is flickering, temporary. Therefore it is said in the śāstras, ramante yogino 'nante. Those who are yogis… Yogis means who are realizing transcendental position, they are called yogis. They may be divided into three categories: the jñānīs, the haṭha-yogīs, or the bhakta-yogī. They are all called yogis. So ramante yogino anante. Yogis' target of enjoyment is to touch the unlimited. Here there is no perception of unlimited pleasure. That is not. It is flickering. Rāmante yoginaḥ anante satyānande [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. That is real pleasure. Here the pleasure is like this, that you, somebody is offering that "You take these rasagullās, and after eating rasagullā I shall beat you with shoes." Here the pleasure is like that: "You eat rasagullā and then be beaten by shoes." Perhaps we have got all experience of this. But actual ānanda is brahmānanda, unlimited. Brahmānanda means unlimited. There is no… It is increasing. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. When you get to the… Everyone, we are seeking after ānanda. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Because Kṛṣṇa is ānandamaya, and we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, naturally we are also ānandamaya. But we have fallen in the circumstances where there is no ānanda. Those who are seeking after ānanda, they are under illusion, will o' the wisp. There is no ānanda. "Why there is no ānanda? There are so many things to enjoy." No. Kṛṣṇa says that this place is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. So how there can be ānanda? It is certified by the Supreme Personality of Godhead that it is duḥkhālayam, it is the place for miserable condition of life. So how there can be ānanda?

Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, "Those who are intelligent, they should always place before them four principles of miserable condition." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We should not be illusioned. We should know that there is, I mean to say, distresses when we take birth. We have forgotten. We do not know how much suffering we had to undergo when we were within the belly of our mother. It is very miserable condition. We had to remain there in packed-up condition like this in a bag, and it is suffocating. And because we are… At that time, the skin is very tender. There are many worms and germs within the belly, mixed up with stool and urine; they bite. We have forgotten that, the actual position. Anyone who knows how a child remains within the womb of his mother… The medical profession, they also know how much it is suffocating. Suppose you are packed up in a bag… It is simply by the mercy of God, Kṛṣṇa, that we can remain in that condition. If you are put again into that condition, you will immediately die. So we have forgotten what is the distress to remain in the womb of mother. And that also, sometimes a child is killed. At the present moment, advanced civilization, pregnancy is killed sometimes. So we cannot see even light. We die within the womb of a mother and again enter another womb. And it may be we die again. So just try to understand what is the miserable condition of birth. But because we forget, we think we are very happy. And again, not only that, as soon as we take birth, again a new chapter of life begins. Again you… Even after coming out of the womb, when we are little child we cry. There may be mosquito biting or bugs biting or something in the belly, troubling, crying. Mother is trying to pacify, but we are crying, crying. We cannot express. So these are the miserable condition of life. Kṛṣṇa says it is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. So under the illusion of māyā, as soon as we get out of the womb we forget everything, what we are suffering. And because the mother and relatives, they take on the lap, we forget. So this is the condition, miserable condition of birth. And similarly, miserable condition of death. When one is lying in coma, so many sufferings is going on, so many dreaming, the Yamadūtā is coming. Sometimes the man on the deathbed cries, he's so much suffering. But there is no remedy. Everyone is helpless. So that is the miserable condition of death. And then, janma-mṛtyu-jarā, old age. Just like we have now come to the old age. There are so many troubles. Sometimes heart failure, sometimes there is… So many troubles. You know, everyone. So janma-mṛtyu-jarā and vyādhi. So long we have got this body, you'll have so many diseases. So how you can get rid of these duḥkha? Therefore it is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. How you consider that "We shall make it adjusted"? That is not possible. Therefore it is the duty. This human form of life is meant for realizing what is my position.

Then Bhāgavata says,

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke

kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye

[SB 5.5.1]

The Bhāgavata says that this life, this human form of life, ayaṁ deha… Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means the human form of life. It is not meant for working hard day and night and live like a hog. The hog's life we have got experience. They eat stool, all day long working, and they have got some pleasure, sex pleasure, without any discrimination. A person who has no discrimination of sex life, who has no discrimination of eating, he is given the birth of a hog. He has to take the birth like a hog. Because our activities are judged by higher authorities. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. We are acting, but there is a higher authority who is judging our actions, what kind of actions. Because in the human form is an opportunity. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sitting in your heart along with you as friend and witnessing what you are doing. And if you are desiring unlimited sex life and unlimited eating without any restriction, then Kṛṣṇa gives you… Because the human society, it is not possible. There are so many restrictions even from social laws, political laws. But animal life, there is no restriction. Anyone can have sex life-the dogs and hogs on the street in open place-because they are animals. There is no law. But a human being, if he does so, then he is punishable. So why? Because human being. All the laws, all the books, are meant for human being. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, anādir bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela, ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Why these Vedas and Purāṇas and the Vedic literature there? It is for human beings, not for the cats and dogs.

So this human form of life should be utilized. In our, especially in India, the land of Vedic culture, we should utilize. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says that,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

In India, one who has taken birth as a human being, it is his duty to make his life perfect. Because there are so many, I mean to say, authentic literatures. So if we don't take advantage of these literatures, then we cannot make our life perfect. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises that you make your life perfect and distribute this Vedic knowledge to the whole of the world. Paropakāra. Paropakāra. You are meant for paropakāra, not for exploiting. That is the duty of the Indians. Unfortunately, neither we are inclined to make our life perfect by understanding the Vedic literatures… Therefore we are begging. Instead of doing paropakāra, we are begging. This should be stopped. And the essence of all Vedic literature is Bhagavad-gītā. So if we study Bhagavad-gītā as it is, our life will be perfect, undoubtedly. But unfortunately, we also misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā according to our own whims, and therefore we are misguiding. We cannot take the essence of Bhagavad-gītā, and therefore our, this human form of life is also lost, and we cannot do any welfare activities in the world.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, according to the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that make your life perfect and distribute the Vedic knowledge throughout the whole world. The time has come. This Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is in the foreign countries. And you can see simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and studying Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, how these boys and girls, they are in ecstasy. They are in the spiritual platform. You cannot expect such dancing and such joyful attitude in this material world. It is not possible. They are in the spiritual world. Yes.

māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

If you are situated in bhakti-yoga, avyabhicāriṇi, without any adulteration… The adulteration is most dangerous. Bhakti-yoga means,

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanam bhaktir uttamā

[Brs. 1.1.11]

Simply you have to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably, not unfavorably. Kṛṣṇa conscious, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious unfavorably, that is not bhakti. Just like Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was also Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. "As soon as Kṛṣṇa is born, please bring Him. Or inform me. I shall immediately kill Kṛṣṇa." When Kṛṣṇa was in the womb of His mother Devakī, Kaṁsa was Kṛṣṇa conscious. He could understand that "Kṛṣṇa is now… Because Devakī, she is now so much glowing." So he could understand. He sometimes wanted to kill Devakī; then he restrained himself, that "If I kill Devakī in pregnancy, it will be great, I mean to say, bad reputation." So he restrained himself. But therefore he was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but he was thinking of Kṛṣṇa unfavorably. So similarly, those who are reading Bhagavad-gītā unfavorably means in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is the principal factor, but anyone who is trying to kill Kṛṣṇa and reading Bhagavad-gītā, that is Kaṁsa's reading.

Indian man: Very good, very good.

Prabhupāda: That is not bhakti. That is going on. Great, great scholars, they are trying to kill Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad-gītā. So this has to be stopped. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this basis, that "Don't try to kill Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed. You will be killed. You will be killed. Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed." When I went to Western countries, they said that "God is dead." Here also, in our country so many people says that "Kṛṣṇa came. He is dead and gone. Now I am greater than Kṛṣṇa." So many rascal incarnations: "I am greater than Kṛṣṇa." You see. So this is going on.

So by this way you cannot be happy. You must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if you act like that, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We have to understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system, not whimsically: "I think," "It is my opinion." What you are, nonsense? Throw your opinion. This process should be given up. We should understand as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

[Bg. 4.2]

So we have to take, understand Bhagavad-gītā from paramparā system, not from the rascals! That will not do. So what is that paramparā system? That paramparā system… Take, for example, Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. How? Why He is speaking to Arjuna? Arjuna was not a Vedāntist; he was a military man. You do not expect a military man to be highly learned or Vedāntist. And He was talking to him when he was fighting, very busy hour. And still, Kṛṣṇa said, "I'll speak to you this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā because you are My devotee and dear friend." Therefore the first qualification for understanding Bhagavad-gītā is to become a dear friend of Kṛṣṇa. And if you are a Kaṁsa, what you will understand, Bhagavad-gītā? If your motive is to kill Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad-gītā… Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan says, when he is explaining this verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." He directly says. He's advising not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. "It is the unborn which is within Kṛṣṇa." He does not know, there is no "within," "without" Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. He has no knowledge. Still, he's trying to comment on Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to awaken the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness which is lying within everyone's heart. It is not artificial. It is not that I have spoken to these boys and girls in America and all over the world (and) with my speeches they have been enticed and they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. Nobody has such power that simply by artificial, by speaking, one can convert. That is not possible. The real, real mystery is, as it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta,

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is in everyone's heart, dormant. Every living entity. Because every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a father and son, there is natural affection; it is not artificial. Even there is misunderstanding between father and the son, and if they meet at a time after many years' misunderstanding, immediately the affection of father and son will act, immediately. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our affection for Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's affection for us is eternal. Kṛṣṇa is more anxious to reclaim us from this miserable condition of life than we are, because we are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yaḥ [Bg. 14.4]. He is the father of all living entities. We are part and parcel. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is very anxious. Therefore Caitanya-caritāmṛta kar says,

anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gelā

ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karilā

Just to remind us. Not only he has given us Vedas and Purāṇas to remind us that "Your position is different than you are thinking. You are thinking that you are a material product. That is illusion. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. You are brahma-vastu. You are part and parcel of Brahman…" Therefore there are so many literatures-vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]-just to draw your attention to come to Kṛṣṇa. Just to draw your attention, that "You are My part and parcel. You are My eternal son. Why you are rotting in this miserable condition of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]?" Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's advice is give up all nonsense engagement; simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa favorably, not like Kaṁsa or so-called scholars, but with natural affection for Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy. That is our program.

We are preaching all over this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement just to awaken their natural affection for Kṛṣṇa. And the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says,

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

We have to develop our natural affection. Natural affection. Just like a father loves the child, child loves the father. That is natural. At least, father loves the child without any thinking of renunciation. No. That is natural. Similarly, when we shall develop, awaken… Not develop; it is already there. Simply to awaken. How it is awakened? Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte. As you are coming here, if you try to hear the real fact of your relationship with Kṛṣṇa and yourself from the śāstras… Because ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karilā. We have to learn from the authorized śāstras, from the Bhagavad-gītā, from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, from Vedas, not from the rascals. Then you'll understand. Your real affection for Kṛṣṇa will be awakened and your life will be successful. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore advised: bhāgavata para giyā bhāgavata sthāne. We have to understand Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from the person Bhāgavatam, whose life is simply Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you'll understand Bhāgavata. Not from the professional readers. You cannot understand. Sanātana Gosvāmī has prohibited strictly. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtam, śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam. One, he is not Vaiṣṇava in his behavior, pseudo-Vaiṣṇava, Sanātana Gosvāmī says, even he speaks hari-kathāmṛtam, the message of Kṛṣṇa, it is not to be heard because he'll not present real Kṛṣṇa. He'll present adulterated Kṛṣṇa, or his business will be to kill Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

So this movement is cultural movement, Kṛṣṇa cultural movement. Of course, it is Indian movement, but it is not for only…, meant for only for the Indians. It is meant for everyone, because everywhere there are Kṛṣṇa's parts and parcels. (pause) (aside:) Sit down. So if we want to be free from the clutches of māyā, the formula is very simple. Formula is very simple. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. To become liberated, to become free from the contamination of this mayic illusion, or māyā… There are many yogis, they are trying to get out of the clutches of māyā, but the method is simple according to Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. You can try to get rid of, out of the clutches of māyā in different ways, but it is very, very strong. It is not so easy to get out of the clutches of māyā. But immediately He says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti: simply by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa. What is that surrendering? "Kṛṣṇa, I forgot You for so many births, from time immemorial. Now I surrender unto You. Please accept." This simple method. This simple method will make you liberated if you do it sincerely, without any, I mean to say, reservation. That we are teaching. Simply kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. And you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be perfect. Your life will be perfect. That is injunction of all śāstras, and especially Bhagavad-gītā, the Supreme Personality of Godhead teaching personally. Why do you say "There is no God. What is God?" I was surprised. When I was speaking in the Berkeley University, one Indian girl asked me, "Swamijī, what is God?" You see? I inquired from her, "Are you Indian? You are so misfortunate, you are coming from India-India is the place of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Lord Rāma-and you are asking me what is God?" So much degradation. Apan dhan vilaya ye vikram aje pare tyaje(?). (laughter) You see? So you should be careful now. You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously and you'll be happy. That is our propaganda.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

710223LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, February 23, 1971

Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a self-purification movement. The method is vibration of transcendental sound. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, this sound, is not material sound. It is descended from the spiritual world. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name-not different. Abhinnatvāṁ nāma-nāminoḥ. As in this material world there is difference between the name and the substance… If you are thirsty, then if you simply chant "water, water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You have to get the substance water. But in the spiritual world it is, being absolute, the name and the person whose name we are chanting, they are the same. Therefore by chanting this holy name of God, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa… Hare is addressing the spiritual energy of the Lord, and Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So by being in touch with the Supreme Lord and His energy directly, we become purified. Exactly like if you take one iron rod, put into the fire, it becomes warner, warmer, and at last it becomes red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron; it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly become in touch with the Supreme Lord by chanting His holy name, which is not different from the Supreme Lord, then you become spiritually purified. And as soon as you are spiritually purified, then all misunderstandings of this material world immediately vanquished. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Every living entity is conscious. The original consciousness is polluted by contamination of this material world. Just like water, when it falls from the cloud directly, it is clear and without any dirty things, but as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Again, if you decant the muddy portion of the water, it becomes again clear. Similarly, our consciousness, being polluted by the three modes of material nature, we are thinking one another as enemy or friend. But as soon as you come on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you feel that "We are one. The center is Kṛṣṇa." And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. There are 8,400,000 species of life in different forms. The father, the seed-giving father, is Kṛṣṇa, or the Lord, the Supreme Lord. By misunderstanding, we are thinking that "I am Indian, you are American," or "You are brāhmaṇa, I am śūdra," or "You are Hindu, I am Muslim." These differences are only designations. So as soon as we are freed from the designation-sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]-when we become nirmalam, clear-clear consciousness and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same thing-then all our misunderstanding is vanquished immediately. Then we can understand what is God, what I am, what you are, what is our relationship, and when we act accordingly, there is no controversy, no misunderstanding.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being spread all over the world on the scientific basis of Vedic culture. People are accepting. This Indian culture is being accepted all over the world. We have got fifty branches all over the world. Now we have come to establish some branches in India. We invite everyone. There is no discrimination that "You are such, you are such." Anyone can join us. And the joining method is very simple. Just like you have seen, even a small child can chant and dance. So our method is very simple. Please come, possible, try to understand little philosophy. Then you see how much it is effective, how you can feel transcendentally, how you can become advanced spiritually. The method is very simple, and we request everyone without any discrimination, never mind what you are: "Please come and join this movement and you'll be happy."

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Do any of the people from the press have a question to ask? [break]

Prabhupāda: …will be given from the Bhagavad-gītā, the standard book for spiritual science, or science of God. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. It is clearly stated… We are searching after God. Sometimes we question, "Where is God? Can you show me God?" Bhagavad-gītā has given clear explanation how we can see God in everything. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. "I am the taste of the water." When we drink water, we feel very much satisfied. The taste of water is so nice. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that taste." Now, if you are drinking daily water and you are tasting it, so how you can say that you have not seen God? If you have tasted that water, then you have seen God. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ: "I am the shining principle of sun and the moon." You are seeing every day the sunshine and the moonshine. How you can say that you have not seen God? So this is the science of God, how to see Him. Just like when there is smoke, you can understand that there is fire, although the fire is hidden, similarly, by the symptoms, how God is acting, how His energies are spread all over the world, if you study the energy of God, then you can see God, you can feel God, you can associate with God, and you become godly, or purified.

Guest: Detailed program?

Prabhupāda: Detailed program of this camp? That you can say.

Guest: I have the philosophy of the spiritual world. Comments on Bhagavad-gītā are given…

Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhagavad-gītā, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Fourth Chapter, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Kṛṣṇa says that "This system of bhagavad-bhakti-yoga was spoken first by Me to the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. "And Vivasvān, the sun-god, said this philosophy to his son Manu, and Manu said to his son Ikṣvāku." Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So from this formula, if we study Bhagavad-gītā, then taking the age of Manu, Vivasvān, Ikṣvāku, it becomes not less than forty millions of years. So Bhagavad-gītā is not a new thing. It is coming down from an age forty millions of years back. [break] And besides that, we are represented in Tokyo, in Canada, in Europe, in America, like that. We have got fifty centers all over the world.

Guest: What was the purpose of this festival here?

Prabhupāda: The purpose of this festival is to induce you to chant this holy name, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That's all.

Guest: How many branches in India?

Prabhupāda: At least Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi. Three branches. In Bombay we have got already an apartment on the Warden Road, 89 Warden Road. We are paying 2,500 rupees per month. Similarly, we have got a center in Calcutta, Albert Road, near Park (?) Station, Calcutta 16. Three, Albert Road. There also we are paying one thousand rupees rent. So now we are in rented house. Out of about five (fifty) centers all over the world, we have got about five centers which is our own. Otherwise, we are in the rented house. For our expenditure is very high. In each centers, according to Indian exchange, we spend not less than five thousand and up to twenty thousand per month. But we are pulling on by selling our literatures, books, and little contribution from the public.

Guest: List of all the names of your books.

Devotee: …called Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Where are the books? [break] Therefore we have to erect something. If I call in a ground, open ground, perhaps you'll not come. Therefore we require some temples. We are not concerned with architecture. We are concerned with spiritual life. We erect temple for worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (end)

710317LE.BOM

Lecture on Teachings of Lord Caitanya

Bombay, March 17, 1971

Prabhupāda: There are many sat-saṅga society, but in Europe and America, western countries, this is the only, and they have very kindly joined us. So to serve them is our first business. So, we are talking of teachings of Lord Caitanya to Sanātana Gosvāmī. Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was one of the very responsible minister in the (indistinct) government of Bengal. And as minister, he was a learned scholar both in Sanskrit and Arabic. So, he resigned his post as minister and wanted to join Lord Caitanya in his saṅkīrtana movement. He had some difficulties to get out of the responsible position. The Nawab, Hussain Shah was very much counting upon his assistance. Generally the Muhammadan kings, they were dependent on Hindu ministers. I have heard that in your this Bombay city, Aga Khan (?), his establishment for management were all Hindu officers. I do not know whether it is a fact. Is it a fact?

Devotee: It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They know that the Hindus can manage very intelligently. They're not extravagant. So, Sanātana Gosvāmī was favored by Lord Caitanya by instructing him for two months. He created two, three lieutenants for preaching His cult. One of them was Rūpa Gosvāmī, one of them was Sanātana Gosvāmī, the chief of the Gosvāmīs. And He talked with also Rāmānanda Raya, another stalwart. He was also statesman, he was governor of Madras on behalf of the then king of Orissa, Mahārāja Pratāparudra. He was very powerful king. The Muhammadans, the Pathans, they practically conquered all over India, but they could not enter Orissa. He was very strong king and in those days Madras was under the Orissa government. So, another responsible officer…. (aside) Stop this. How it is happening? You can close these doors. So, he was another big officer, governor, he also joined Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And these two brothers, Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī, they were ministers in the government of Hussain Shah, they also joined. And Raghunātha dasa Gosvāmī he was also a big zamindar, landlord, so he also joined. And a big scholar, he also from Madras side, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī. And Jīva Gosvāmī, he was also a very big scholar. He happened to be from Bengal. In this way six Gosvāmīs, they were immediate disciples of Lord Caitanya and Lord Caitanya's instruction to them…, directly gave instruction to Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī and Rāmānanda Raya. So one of the Gosvāmīs, Sanātana Gosvāmī, the Caitanya Mahāprabhu is instructing at Benares. So his proposition was that some people, my neighborhood people or my dependents, government officers, they call me as a learned scholar, paṇḍita.

Of course, it is a system in India that a brāhmaṇa is addressed as a paṇḍita because he is supposed to become a learned scholar. Brāhmaṇa's business is to study Vedic literatures and teach others also paṭhan pāṭhan. He must be scholar and he must make others also scholar. Not that he is simply remains a scholar, no, that is bad. Brāhmaṇa is so liberal that he wants to make others also scholar. paṭhana, pāṭhana, yajana, yājana. Yajan means worshiping the lord and yājan means helping others. Priest, you know, priestly business. Priest means he helps the householders how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Purohita. Purohita means one who does welfare activities for the householders. Purohita. Yajana yājana, Paṭhana pāṭhana, and dāna pratigraha. Brāhmaṇa business is to take charity from his disciples, followers, and again spend it for Kṛṣṇa's service. So, these six kinds of business is for the Brāhmaṇas and they are suppose to be very learned, paṇḍitajī. Brāhmaṇa's position is paṇḍita, so he was called paṇḍita. And he was actually paṇḍita but he presented himself as a fool although he was learned. He presented himself, "My dear Lord, people say that I am very learned but actually I do not know what I am, where from I have come, why I am suffering."

First of all, we do not know that we are suffering in every step. Why we are using this fan? Because we are suffering. Because the excessive heat we cannot tolerate, suffering. Similarly, in the winter season this wind will be another suffering. We have closed the doors tightly so that air may not come. Now the air is counteracting suffering and in another season the same air will be suffering. So, the air is the cause of suffering and it is the so-called cause of happiness also. Actually we are simply suffering, that we do not know. But we get information from Lord Kṛṣṇa that this place is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place for miseries. You cannot expect any happiness. That is our foolishness. That is our foolishness. We are trying to adjust things to become happy, but we are so foolish that we do not know there cannot be any happiness. This is called ignorance. This is called ignorance. Therefore Bhāgavata says parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāta. Abodha-jāta, every one of us born foolish. And we are acting in different ways to become happy, but we do not know that every step we are being defeated. We are fighting with the stringent laws of nature, struggle, but we are happy by some complacent thoughts that we have become happy, we are advanced. We are happy. We are becoming educated, we are advanced in science. But Bhāgavata says, "No, you are not advancing, you are simply being defeated, because you do not know how to get happiness. You are not trying for real happiness."

So, this ignorance is dissipated by the knowledge of the Vedas. Lord Caitanya therefore, has said, that Kṛṣṇa he will say, that because we are so foolish we have forgotten how to become happy, therefore Kṛṣṇa has made so many Vedic literatures. Ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa korila. So you should take advantage of these Vedas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says-we have already talked now-He says, sādhu-śāstra-kṛpāya yadi kṛṣṇonmukha haya. This is Bengali-I think you will understand-I will explain in English also. So, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's proposal is: by the mercy of sādhu, holy man, or saintly person, or devotee… Who is a sādhu? We know this term sādhu. Sādhu means saintly person. But actually there are different kinds of sādhus. Generally people accept a sādhu when he is dressed with the saffron garment, but there are different types of sādhus, mahātmā. Some of them may be jñānīs who wants to merge into the Brahman effulgence. And another sādhu may be yogis, those who are trying to-the same ambition-to merge into the supreme by finding out in the heart. Yoginaḥ, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. Dhyānāvasthita-manasā, by meditation, meditative mind, dhyānāvasthita-manasā dhiyāṁ paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. Yoginaḥ, they are trying to see the Supreme Personality of Godhead by meditative mind. That is yogi, and he is also sādhu. And bhaktas. Just like we have taken the path of devotional service to serve Kṛṣṇa at any cost. We don't think anything greater than the service of the Lord. That is the bhakta's position. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], that is bhakti. Simply to serve Kṛṣṇa favorably. Kṛṣṇa conscious, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how He will be satisfied. Not thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how I shall kill Him. That is Kaṁsa's Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kaṁsa was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but his business was to make plan how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Not that sort of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is ānukūlyena, favorable, how Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Although Kaṁsa's Kṛṣṇa consciousness helped him-he got liberation. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious unfavorably, still you get the immediate profit being liberated. For which the jñānīs and yogīs, they are trying hundreds of years. Kṛṣṇa is so nice that if you simply think that, "I shall kill Kṛṣṇa, I shall kill Kṛṣṇa."

There is a story in the Bhaktamarg grantha that one paṇḍita was reciting Bhāgavata and he was describing Śyāmasundara. Mother Yaśodā was decorating with all jewels very nicely to go with his cowherd boy friends, with the calves and cows. Śyāmasundara. And in the forest of Vṛndāvana. So, one thief was also hearing that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So he thought it wise, "Why not go to Vṛndāvana and get all these ornaments from these boys? (laughter) They are all boys, so either I can kill them or somehow or other cheat them, get these ornaments." So, that's a long story (indistinct). So, with that spirit he went to Vṛndāvana to find out Śyāmasundara to exploit Him, to take all the ornaments from Him. When he actually went to Vṛndāvana, he was finding out, "Where is Śyāmasundara? Where is Śyāmasundara?" Śyāmasundara came and, "Here I am." So, first of all he was (indistinct), "My dear boy, You give me all these ornaments I will give you nice thing." He said, "No, I cannot give you, my mother will be angry, no." (laughter) In this way then he decided that I shall take forcibly. In this way simply by the association of Śyāmasundara he became a devotee. That is the fact. Dhruva Mahārāja also went to worship Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṇa, to get the kingdom of his father. He was insulted by his stepmother that, "You cannot sit down on the throne, or on the lap of your father, because you are not born from my womb." So he took it very seriously. He went to his mother, "My stepmother insulted me like this." So, his mother said, "My dear boy, yes, it is a fact because you are not born from my…" What it is called co-wifes?

Devotee: Co-wife.

Prabhupāda: "…. womb. I'm unfortunate, you are born of my womb. So, so you cannot." Then, "I must have." The boy was very insistent, kṣatriya boy. "Then Kṛṣṇa helps you, then you can. Otherwise how, you cannot." Then he went to search out Kṛṣṇa in the jungle and he searched out. When he saw Kṛṣṇa he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42], no more I want it, no more I want it." This is the process. So, pure bhakti is without any desire, but even if you are filled up with desires, you go to Kṛṣṇa. Don't go to other demigods.

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā

mokṣa kāma udāra dhīḥ

tivreṇa bhakti-yogena

yajeta puruṣaṁ param

[SB 2.3.10]

Even if you have desires, not that anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], without any material desires. Generally we go to temple, to God, for some, for fulfilling some material desires. So, śāstra says even if you have got material desires, even if you are not śuddha bhakta… What to speak of śuddha bhakta, even if you are an enemy of Kṛṣṇa, somehow or other go to Kṛṣṇa. Go to the fire and you'll get warm. That is our propaganda. The Gosvāmīs recommend therefore, yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet. Somehow or other you just try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be successful. That is our propaganda. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, sādhu, śāstra, kṛpāya. A sādhu means devotee. That I was going to explain. A sādhu, there are different kinds of sādhus, but only the devotee, he is sādhu. It is explained by Kṛṣṇa himself, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He is sādhu. Even if you find some defects in him due to his former habits, but he is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, unflinching devotion, he is sādhu. He is sādhu. In spite of some defects. We must admit, even in fire there are some defects. Fire is so pure that anything impure you put into the fire, it becomes pure. Perhaps you know in our Hindu system if a one utensil becomes impure some time, you put it in the fire and it becomes pure. Is it not? Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In Bengal this is the system.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, fire is considered to be pure. Therefore any ceremony is done before fire-god. So, Kṛṣṇa says that even fire is so pure, still there are some defect, there is smoke. So, if you want to find out defect, you'll find out in fire also. But that doesn't matter, fire is fire. Similarly, a devotee, an unflinching devotee, without any other desires, who is dedicated to the service of the Lord, he is sādhu. So we have to take shelter of such sādhu. Ādau gurv-āśrayam. And sādhu will instruct you. Not by whims, but through śāstra. He is sādhu. Sādhu will never speak to you anything which is not in the śāstra. Sādhu, śāstra, and guru. And guru is bona fide spiritual master who follows sādhu and śāstra. Who follows his bona fide spiritual master and who follows the instructions of śāstra, he is guru. sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya. Narottama dasa Ṭhākura says that you have to act by accommodating the instruction of sādhu, instruction of śāstra. And you have to distribute. Because Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that these ignorant people who are being defeated repeatedly, such persons, they are being entangled in this materialistic way of life, in this material world. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva. He said, kṛṣṇa bhuli' sei jīva anādi-bahirmukha [Cc. Madhya 20.117]. Anyone who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, he is anādi bahir mukha. He is enamored by this external energy, material world. Just like in Bombay city everyone is working hard, very hard. Their mission is, "How I shall be able to construct a skyscraper building." That's all. Why they are working so hard? Their mission is that I must have a skyscraper house and good apartment and nice wife, nice children and bank balance, then happy. (chuckles) But he does not know how long these things will continue. Ten years, twenty years, fifty years, hundred years, then finished. Your skyscraper building, your nice wife, your apartment, your friends, everything that you have made(?), you do not know where you are going. That you do not know. There is risk. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty [Bg. 8.6], at the time of death everything will be examined. What are you going to be next? You have to accept another body. So that body will be created in this life. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi and that bodily structure will be formed at the time of your death. Just like if you leave this apartment, you'll have to go another apartment. So you have to select another apartment, good or bad. That will depend on your capacity, how much rent you are able to pay. Then you leave this apartment. Similarly, at the time of death by the superior arrangement, another apartment will be given to you, and immediately that is settled up, you leave this body and enter into that body. Daiva-netreṇa, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. That will be considered by your work. If your works are nice… That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā,

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

[Bg. 9.25]

So if you have prepared your life for going to the higher planetary systems, in the moon planet or sun planet or…, there are so many hundreds and thousands and millions of planets up, and similarly down, and similarly in the middle. Catur (indistinct), fourteen worlds. So, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. If you have developed sattva-guṇa then you will be allowed to go to the upper planets.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā

adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

[Bg. 14.18]

So, we have to see from the śāstras, therefore śāstras. So this is the position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explains that sometimes you are elevated to the svarga-loka, sometimes you are going to the naraka-loka. In this way it is going on, but this is not our good business. Now, suppose I am in this good apartment, say for six months, and next if I cannot pay the rent, I have no means, then I go, what is called? Jopri? (?) Eh? There are jopris (?) also in Bombay. So, not that because one is in Bombay, he is always in the skyscraper. He may be in jopri (?) also. So, everyone wants. So this is going on, (indistinct) narake. Sometimes in the heavenly planet, sometimes in the hellish planet, this is going on, but this business is not good. Na sādhu manye. Even if you get the body of the heavenly planet, what you get? There is also janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. You have to die there. Even Brahma dies. Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. So this is the process going on. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, sādhu-śāstra-kṛpāya yadi kṛṣṇonmukha. Our only business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That can be done simply by the mercy of sādhu. Therefore sādhus' business is, "Go from door to door and enlighten them." Mahad-vicalanaṁ nṝṇāṁ gṛhiṇāṁ dīna-cetasām. The sādhu's business is that he goes from door to door and tries to invoke Kṛṣṇa consciousness, dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In everyone's heart there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is in a sleeping state. Just like these European and American boys, unless there was Kṛṣṇa consciousness dormant, how it could be invoked? It is not sentiment. It was there. Our business was to, just to arouse. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citta koro ei udaya.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sadhu kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citta karaye udaya

This is the statement of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is already there but by hearing and purifying yourself, that consciousness comes. Just like water. Water is very clean. When it rains from the clouds it is very clean, but as soon as it drops on the ground it becomes muddy. So that muddiness has to be cleansed then water will come out again clean. Similarly, our consciousness is clean, Kṛṣṇa conscious, actually, originally, but because it is contaminated with the muddy things of the material nature, it is cloudy. So, this process-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare-is the cleaning, clarifying process, of the consciousness. Clarifying process. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you take to this clarifying process, then it will be just like as clear as mirror and you will be able to see your face nicely, what I am. Then you'll understand that I don't belong to this material world, I belong to the spiritual world, ahaṁ brahmāsmi; and when you realize that, then if you can act yourself as Brahman, then your life is successful.

brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

That is beginning of devotional service. So Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, sādhu-śāstra-kṛpāya yadi kṛṣṇonmukha haya sei jīva nistare. Nistare means he becomes delivered. If somehow or other he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, by the mercy of a sādhu, and by understanding the śāstra, if somehow or other he becomes lean to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is eligible for being delivered from this miserable condition of material life. Māyā tāhāre chāḍaya. Then this illusion, māyā, releases our light here now. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā,

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etaṁ taranti te

[Bg. 7.14]

This simple process that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa and māyā immediately gives you release, "Oh, no more. That's all right." (pause) Yes, any questions? So, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific, authorized and practical, and very simple. You all take to this and be happy. That is our program. If you have got any question, you can ask. (pause) We shall hold class here in the morning at about half past five, six and in the evening at seven, after seven. Any questions? (pause) Then have kīrtana. (end)

710326LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture at Cross Maidan

Bombay, March 26, 1971

Prabhupāda: I think it should be down little. All right. That's all. Yes. (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) So ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your taking so much trouble in participating with us in this great movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As I am repeatedly placing before you with all humbleness that this movement is very, very much essential, not only at the present moment, but also all the time. And specially in this age, Kali-yuga, the age of disagreements and quarrel. Kali-yuga means nobody agrees with anyone. Everyone has got his own opinion, however condemned it may be. And on that point everyone is prepared to fight with one. Therefore it is called Kali-yuga. So putting different theories, philosophical speculations, will not solve the problems of the world, because not only during this age, but in all other ages also, there are different philosophers, different scriptures. That is the law of this material nature. Here there is no oneness. Duality. This world is meant for duality. So it is called dvaita. Dvaita means duality. So Kṛṣṇa dāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, he says, dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna, ei bhāla ei manda saba manodharma. In the world of dualities, bhadrābhadra, "This is good, this is bad, this is nice, this is not nice," they are simply mental speculation because in this world nothing is nice. Everything is bad because it is not eternal. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya said, jagan mithyā, brahma satya. That's a fact. These, anything, the varieties of this world: temporary. That is the right word. It is not mithyā; it is temporary fact. The Vaiṣṇava philosopher says that this world is not false, but temporary, anitya. Anitya saṁsāra moha janmāile (?).

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said, jaḍa-vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava: "Advancement of material science is increasing the illusion of māyā." We are already illusioned, and if we go on increasing the illusion more and more, then we become more and more entangled. That is the nature. And so long we are illusioned, we shall put forward different theories, different philosophies, and different arguments. Therefore śāstra says, tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Simply by argument and reasoning, you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Because you may be very good, I mean to way, logician, putting forward nice arguments, but somebody may come who is better than you. He will spoil all your logic, and he will establish his own logic. That is nyāya-śāstra. In Sanskrit there is nyāya-śāstra. So they are taught how to defeat his opponent. Therefore the Absolute Truth you cannot understand by argument, by material dealings. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said,

panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo

vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām

so 'py asti yat-prapada-sīmny avicintya-tattve

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.34]

Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyaḥ. (microphone goes out) Just like in the material science they are trying to go to the moon planet or other planets also by certain standard of speed in the sputnik. (aside:) It is not working? (microphone comes back on) They are finding it difficult even to go to the moon planet, which is the nearest planet to the earth. And there are innumerable other planets. And the modern scientists calculate that the highest planet, if we want to go there, it will take the sputnik speed, which is running eighteen thousand miles per hour, in that speed if we go forty thousands of years, we can reach the highest planetary system within this material world. But so far the kingdom of God, which is called Vaikuṇṭhaloka, or sanātana-dhāma…, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nya 'vyakta 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That is sanātana-dhāma. There is-we get this information from the Bhagavad-gītā-the kingdom of God, where everything is permanent. Within this material world, everything is nonpermanent, temporary. Anything you take, it has got its creation, it stays for some time, it produces some by-products, then it grows, and then it dwindles, and then it vanishes. Anything you take. Just like our body. It is produced at a certain time by combination of the semina of father and mother, and then it grows, it stays for some time and it produces some by-products, then becomes older and older, and then vanishes. This is called ṣaḍ-vikāra, six kinds of changes of material world. So although it is temporary, we cannot say it is false. It is not false. That is the difference between Māyāvāda philosophy and Vaiṣṇava philosophy. The Vaiṣṇava philosopher takes the temporary thing, although temporary. They know how to make the best use of a bad bargain. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate.

anāsaktasya viṣayān

yathārham upayuñjataḥ

nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe

yukta-vairāgyam ucyate

That is the direction given by the Gosvāmīs. And the other side is:

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

phalgu-vairāgyaṁ kathyate

So phalgu-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya. Phalgu-vairāgya means inferior renunciation, or false renunciation. And yukta-vairāgya means actual renunciation. What is that difference? Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are giving up this world as false, māyā. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like sometimes we are criticized because we are using the advantages offered by the material science. Just like I am using this microphone. So the people may criticize, "If this world is false, the material world is false, then why should I take advantage of this material product?" They expect that those who are spiritualists, they should go to Himalayas, giving up, giving up everything material and meditate in a solitary place, in snow-covered area. But Vaiṣṇava philosophy does not think like that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. He does not recommend, although He was a sannyāsī, He was in renounced order of life. He gave up His family, beautiful wife, very affectionate mother, very comfortable home, very prestige, too much prestige of His personality in the society. He gave up everything. He was in the prime age of His youthful life, twenty-four years only, but He gave up everything.

tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ

dharmiṣṭha-ārya-vacasā yad agād araṇyam

māyā-mṛgaṁ dayitayepsitam anvadhāvad

vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam

[SB 11.5.34]

This prayer is offered to Lord Caitanya in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But although He renounced this material world, He is never unmindful of the conditioned souls. Therefore He says that

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

Or He wants that…, He predicted that "All over the world, as many villages and towns are there, this saṅkīrtana movement should be spread." That is the responsibility given to the human society of Bhārata-varṣa at least. Because we followers of the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, beginning from Rūpa Gosvāmī, who is giving us direction that nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Prāpañcikatayā… Anāsaktasya viṣayān. There are two use, two kinds of uses of everything. Just like this microphone is being used for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the same microphone can be used for singing a cinema song. So microphone is not bad, but as you use it for different purposes it is bad or good. Similarly, this world, or things which we accept for our maintenance of the soul, body and soul together, they are called viṣaya. Viṣaya means eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. That is viṣaya. So anāsaktasya viṣayān. We should not be attached to the viṣayas. Just like eating. Everyone is eating. You are eating, I am also eating. So what is the difference between you and me? The difference is that we who are engaged in the service of the Lord, we are eating for maintaining the body just to keep ourselves fit for working for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Another person, he is also eating. He is eating to satisfy his palate or with the aim simply to make the body stout and strong.

So nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. We should not give up anything. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not advice of Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. He never says (to) Arjuna that "You give up this fighting and go to the Himalayas and sit down silently there to meditate." Never He advises. We are following that. As Kṛṣṇa says, as Kṛṣṇa advises to Arjuna, yuddhyasva mām anusmaran… So long you are in this material world, you have to fight because this material world is called avidyā-karma-samjña anyā tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate. This energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, material energy, it is called avidyā-karma-samjña. Here the position is everyone is ignorant and he has to work for his maintenance. Even a small ant which requires a grain of sugar, he has to work also very hard. And the elephant who eats hundred pounds at a time, he has also to work. Even a rich man, he has also to work, and a very poor man, he has also to work. Therefore this material energy is called avidyā-karma-samjña anya. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy is that we have to work, but we should work for the best bargain. That is our philosophy. And that is taught in Bhagavad-gītā. There are, according to Vedānta philosophy, there are five kinds of interest, or arthas, pañcārtha. What is that? God, first of all to know what is God. Next, to understand what is jīva, or the living entity. Then, what is this material nature, or what is that spiritual nature. Īśvara, jīva, prakṛti. And then time-what is the time factor, past, present, and future. And then there is karma, activities. These five things, primary principles of philosophical speculation or philosophical understanding, are very clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: īśvara, jīva, prakṛti, kāla, and activities. So out of these five, īśvara, the Lord, the jīva, the living entities, the nature, prakṛti, and the time factor, as well as the…, they are eternal. They are not temporary. But the material energy is temporary. Actually, what is the difference between material energy and spiritual energy? The difference is material energy, the consciousness is different, and in the spiritual energy, the consciousness is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Just like the sky. The sky is one, but when there is cloud, it is called clouded sky. The sky is the same. The clouded sky is not different from the original sky, but the cloud has come and has covered the sun. Not the sun. It is not the actual term. The cloud has covered my eyes. The cloud cannot cover the sun. The sun is fourteen hundred times…, fourteen hundred thousands of times bigger than this earth. Now, how a cloud spreading over, say, one hundred miles or two hundred miles can cover the sun? It is not possible. It covers the eyes of us who are within one hundred and two hundred miles. So as the cloudy sky is not different from the original sky, it is simply covered, similarly, this material world is not different from the spiritual world, but it is simply covered. In ignorance we forget Kṛṣṇa. That's all. The forgetfulness is compared with the cloud. That is stated in simple Bengali poetry:

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as we forget Kṛṣṇa… Because we are eternally part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be any separation. There cannot be any separation between us and Kṛṣṇa because we are eternally related. But a cloudy thing, which is called forgetfulness, that comes between us and we cannot see, we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is diffi… Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. You will find in the Bhagavad-gītā that "I am not visible to everyone. Because yogamāyā, there is a curtain between Me and the material world, which is called yogamāyā." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, or devotional movement, is a process by which we can move that curtain and we can see Kṛṣṇa face to face. This is the process.

So prāpañcika. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says the process is anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ. You… We should be unattached to the material necessities of life. It is not that we shall neglect this body. Because a body is vehicle for understanding. So we cannot neglect it. Just like you take care of your car. You ride on your car. For business you go from one place to another. So you have to keep it fit so that it can move very nicely, it can carry out your order. Similarly, there is no necessity of neglecting this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yuktāhāra vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi. We do not say that "You don't eat," but we say that "You eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda, bhagavat-prasāda." You satisfy your tongue. You do not starve, but you satisfy your tongue by the foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposal. We do not say that "You don't sleep," but we say, "Yes, you sleep. But sleep as much as possible so that to keep your body fit." We do not say that "You don't have sex life." But you have, have it. Just like in this association you'll find my disciples. Out of them, there are many gṛhasthas. So there is no check that the woman and man should not mix. No. But they should mix together for producing Kṛṣṇa conscious children. You have seen the sample of one Kṛṣṇa conscious child. She's always dancing and she's always jolly. She's always jolly, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

So in this way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to Kṛṣṇize everything favorably. That is called śaraṇāgati. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That does not mean that it was told to Arjuna… So Arjuna did not give up his profession as a fighter, but he submitted to Kṛṣṇa. He Krsnized the fighting principle. He fought for Kṛṣṇa, not that he gave up fighting. In the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā he was a fighter, soldier. And at the end of his understanding Bhagavad-gītā he remained a fighter and a soldier, but his consciousness was changed. That is the difference. Similarly, the activities of this material world which is going on, we do not say like the Māyāvāda philosophers, that brahma satya jagan mithyā. According to the leader of Māyāvāda philosophers, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, his perfection of life begins when one takes to sannyāsa. The Śaṅkarācārya philosophers, they do not admit anyone as realized soul unless he has accepted sannyāsa. But Vaiṣṇava philosophy is not like that. Vaiṣṇava philosophy is that you may remain in any condition of life-it doesn't matter-but you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all.

īhā yasya harer dāsye

karmaṇā manasā vācā

nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu

jīvan muktaḥ sa ucyate

That is the direction by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Īhā yasya harer dāsye. One who is always anxious to serve the Supreme Lord… Because my natural constitutional position is to serve Kṛṣṇa. And because I am covered by the ignorance injected by the māyā, I am thinking, "I am servant of this, servant of my country, servant of my society, servant of my body." If not, "I am servant of my dog, of my cat." So that is my position. But actually I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. As I am thinking at present moment, "I am servant of this, servant of that," we have to give up this servant, servitorship or servitude, and we have to turn our face toward Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. Īhā yasya harer dāsye. Jīvan muktaḥ sa ucyate. Nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu. That is the direction of Rūpa Gosvāmī, that it doesn't matter in what condition of life you are now. You may be an Indian, you may be a European, you may be American, you may be Hindu, you may be Christian, you may be Muhammadan, but you should think that you are eternal servant of God, or Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa" is the right terminology what we mean by God. So that consciousness will save you. And that consciousness will make my life, this human form of life, perfect. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ, nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. The same thing, the same philosophy, as I have already explained, that there is no restriction in accepting the bodily necessities of life, but you accept so much only as it will help you to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't take less, don't take much. Accept properly. That is the law of nature. Nature does not allow you to take more or less. Just like salt. Salt is an ingredient which you want very badly in every, I mean to say, morsel of foodstuff. But if you take more salt, it will spoil the foodstuff, and if you take less, then it will not be tasteful. So you have to take salt simply as much as you require, neither more nor less.

So our main business should be how to improve in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So far other things are required, bodily necessities, that is recommended by Rūpa Gosvāmī, anāsaktasya: "Don't be attached." Don't take food, don't eat simply for satisfying your palate. That is called sense enjoyment. But you, just to keep yourself fit, just to keep your body fit for giving service to the Lord, you can eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda. And so far Kṛṣṇa prasāda is concerned, it is not very bad; it is very good. We offer… Of course, those who are followers of Vedic principles of life, they know how nice foodstuff can be offered to Kṛṣṇa. There are hundreds and thousands of varieties of fruits. There is nice grains also, there is nice milk also, there is sugar also. So you can prepare nice foodstuff on these ingredients which are considered sattvika, sattvikāhāra. Fruits, grains, vegetables, and sugar, rice, wheat, they are considered as sattvikāhāra. So you can prepare. Kṛṣṇa also says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. He can eat everything. Just like we have evidences from His life, sometimes He ate fire. Blazing fire in the forest, He ate up. So He can eat everything because He is God. He has got the potency of accepting anything. That is a different thing. But when He demands from His devotees, He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So we have satisfy Him from these groups. Patraṁ puṣpam means vegetables, fruits, grains; and toyam, water or milk, like that. And you partake the prasāda.

Sometimes I am questioned in European countries that "What is the difference between patraṁ puṣpam? That is also eatables. They are also vegetables. They have got life. Why do you ask us not to eat meat because they are living beings?" So answer is that it is not the question of living being. Every living being has to eat another living being. That is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Those who have got hands, they are eating the legless. Just like the vegetables. Just like cows, goats, or other animals, they are eating grass. The grass is also a living entity, but it has no legs. It is being eaten up by another animal which has got legs. Similarly, we are also a kind of animal with hands. We are eating another animal which has no hands. Similarly, those who are strong, even in animal kingdom or vegetable kingdom, those who are strong, they are eating the less strong. In this way the whole world is maintained by one animal is eating another animal or one living entity is eating another living entity. That is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. So you (we) are not interfering with the right of the living entities. A tiger has got the right to eat another animal. So we are not going to preach amongst the tigers that "You become vegetarian" or "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious." That is not our business. Our business is that we are inducing, we are entreating, we are requesting people that "You take Kṛṣṇa prasāda." That is our business. To become vegetarian or nonvegetarian is not very big business. We do not admit that vegetarians are very much pious and nonvegetarians are not pious. No. Not like that. We say that everyone is impious who is not taking foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is our view. Anyone. That is stated by Kṛṣṇa. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ: "Anyone who is eating foodstuff offered to Yajña, to Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa, he is diminishing his volumes of sinful life." Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt: [Bg. 3.13] "And anyone who is cooking for himself, not for Kṛṣṇa, then he is simply eating a lump of sinful life." It doesn't matter whether he is vegetarian or nonvegetarian. This is the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have to eat what is offered to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. If you simply work for Kṛṣṇa… That is called karma-yoga. One who is working simply for Kṛṣṇa, he is karma-yogī. You have got tendency to work. You have got tendency to flourish yourself by advancing industrialism. That's nice. You go on, do it. We don't forbid it. But do it for Kṛṣṇa. Make Kṛṣṇa center. That is the whole teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. You offer… Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi. "Whatever you do, it doesn't matter. Whatever you eat," yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi, "whatever you sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, give unto Me." Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people how to live in spiritual atmosphere, and then there will be peace and prosperity. Unless one is in spiritual life… Because factually we are spiritual entities. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the whole spirit, and we are His part and parcel. Just like a machine and there is small screw, a part of the machine. The screw, although it has no value, but because it is a part of the machine, big machine, if that screw is missing, you will have to purchase at any price. It has got value. The same screw, when it is without the machine, it has no value because it is only a small particle of the machine. Similarly, when we are out of the atmosphere, we are out of Kṛṣṇa atmosphere… There are many examples. Just like a fire and the sparks of the fire. They are of the same quality. If the sparks of the fire falls on your cloth, it will immediately burn. But the sparks of the fire and the whole fire is different in quantity. But in quality the sparks of the fire is as good as the fire. There are many examples. You can understand what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa or God. We are small. We are atomic small, and Kṛṣṇa is unlimitedly great. That is the difference. Otherwise, so far quality is concerned, Kṛṣṇa and ourself, the same. As the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, if we live always with Kṛṣṇa, then we are in spiritual life. If we always live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then in spite of our living in this material world we are called jīvan mukta, "liberated in this material condition." Jīvan mukta. He has got to die and take liberation. Even in this life he is liberated. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

He is already Brahman realized. Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, avyabhicāriṇi, without any deviation, twenty-four hours…" We are teaching these boys and girls… This function is meant for engaging them there twenty-four hours in Kṛṣṇa's business. They are going to outside for securing advertisement. It may seem equal that another man has got to secure advertisement and they have also got securing advertisement, but there is gulf of difference. They have gone for Kṛṣṇa, and others, they have gone for sense gratification. That is the difference. In this way you can mold your life in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you live in brahma-bhūtaḥ. You haven't got to try for becoming brahma-bhūtaḥ or you have to realize Brahman separately. You are already in brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Sa guṇan samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. These statements are in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is taught what is God, what is nature of God and who is God, and what are these living entities, we living entities, and what is our relationship. These things are taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to find out. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He says,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā-bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

So Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including all other demigods. Even Brahma, Lord Śiva, and even Viṣṇu, they are emanations from Kṛṣṇa. We have got in the Vedic literature how Kṛṣṇa is the original person. Therefore Arjuna accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. And the Gosvāmīs, the Six Gosvāmīs, they have analyzed Kṛṣṇa's characteristics, Nārāyaṇa's characteristics, Lord Śiva's characteristics, Lord Brahmā's characteristics. They have analyzed very scrutinizingly everything and they have found it that Kṛṣṇa is cent percent God. Nārāyaṇa is ninety-six percent God, Lord Śiva is eighty-four percent God, Lord Brahmā is eighty-seven percent God. Of course, those who have studied Vedic literature, especially the book named Bhakti-rasāmṛta sindhu which we have translated into English, Nectar of Devotion or The Science of Devotion… So you have to learn from the Vedic literatures what is God, what are the living entities, what is their relationship, what is our ultimate goal of life. But everything is very nicely and concise form is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. But we have to study Bhagavad-gītā as it is, I mean to say, directed. Not according to the whimsical commentators. Nothing should be studied which is against the principles of bhakti-yoga mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. As I have told you yesterday, Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg. 4.3]. "Because you are My pure devotee, because you are My friend, dear friend, therefore I am speaking to you Bhagavad-gītā, which is very mysterious." And that mystery is very nice. So in order to understand Bhagavad-gītā we have to learn it from the devotees. That is also not very difficult. It is not necessary that you have to find out a devotee. The devotee is already there, Arjuna. And if you simply follow the footsteps of Arjuna, if you simply try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as Arjuna understood, then your study of Bhagavad-gītā is complete. That is not difficult.

So as Arjuna said that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Personality." Śāśvataṁ puruṣa. He is accepted puruṣa. Puruṣa, the Supreme Lord, puruṣa; the bhokta, the enjoyer. And He's paraṁbrahman and pavitra, uncontaminated. Pavitra means uncontaminated by the material nature. Paramaṁ bhavān. And He is the rest of everything. Kṛṣṇa also says,

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagat avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ

[Bg. 9.4]

So everything is there. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am spread all over the world, all over the universe," avyakta-mūrtinā, "in My impersonal form. But everything is resting upon Me, but I am not there." These contradictory terms, how it is satisfied, how it is mitigated, we have to learn from a person who knows Kṛṣṇa. Not from others. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended one brāhmaṇa who went to see Him by writing some books and they were not in order. His secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī, disqualified, that "These books are not written the right order." He was surprised. He was supposed to be a great scholar of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but Svarūpa Gosvāmī nullified him that "You do not know anything." Then he advised him, because that person was very submissive, he advised him that bhāgavata paro diya bhāgavata sthāne: "Just try to understand Bhāgavata from the person bhāgavata." Person bhāgavata. There are two kinds of bhāgavatas. One is book bhāgavata, and there is another bhāgavata, who is person bhāgavata. Bhāgavata means in relationship with Bhagavān. To those who have dedicated their life… One who has dedicated his life only for the service of the Lord, Bhagavān, he is called bhāgavata.

So if we want to learn some specific subject we have to accept a proper authority or a bona fide teacher. Similarly if we want to learn the science of God, we have to approach a person who knows the science. Not that a casual person takes one Bhagavad-gītā and writes his comment and it goes on for some ulterior purpose. In that way you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. And Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is situated in everyone's heart. So as soon as you are actually a devotee… He is everyone's heart but He is silent. But as soon as one is devotee, one is inclined to serve Kṛṣṇa, at that time He gives him intelligence. He does not give intelligence… He gives others intelligence in a different way, as we want. Everyone, because we are free, so as we want. Because without sanction of Kṛṣṇa, we cannot do anything. Therefore one has to take sanction from Kṛṣṇa for doing anything. So for others He gives sanction, "All right. You do it." Because He will see. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you do it because He perceives that I must do it. So Kṛṣṇa gives the sanction. That is one sanction. But there is another sanction, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is sanction for the devotees. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Teṣām. "For those who are twenty-four hours engaged in My service." Satata-yukta. Satata means always, without any deviation. Simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, thinking everything in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is seeing one flower. You'll be surprised… This little girl, the other day we were walking in hanging gardens, and this little girl, as soon as she saw some flower, immediately she expressed her opinion that these flowers should be taken and made into garland for Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. She is being taught from the very beginning of her life how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So it is not difficult. It depends only on training. Even in this old age, and especially in this age this method is very simple. Simply we have to agree to accept it. That's all. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the simplest form of self-realization and advancement in spiritual life.

So Kṛṣṇa, as I was talking, that Kṛṣṇa is sitting in everyone's heart. And as soon as one is inclined to serve Him, He is also ready to respond immediately. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. One who is engaged twenty-four hours in His service, in Kṛṣṇa's service, bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam , not as a matter of routine… Of course, we have to begin as a matter of routine. But when you develop gradually love for Him, that is called prīti. Just like this Deity worship. Our students, first of all they are engaged in a matter of duty of devotional service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanam [SB 7.5.23]. This is called arcanam. But by worshiping the Deity he feels an attachment for service. That is natural. Tathāsakti. It is called āsakti. It will develop if you begin Kṛṣṇa consciousness at your home. Then you will feel at a certain stage an attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Āsakti. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅga.

adau śraddhā tato sādhu-

saṅga atha bhajana-kriyā

tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt

tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis

tathāsaktis tato bhāvas

sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ

prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ

These are the different stage. Now you are coming in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is called śraddhā, a little faith. And if you increase that faith… How it can be increased? By association with devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Sādhu means devotees. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Even these boys, these European and American boys, you do not find they are correct to the principle, still they are sādhu because they have engaged themselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. Even though you find cause, because they have forefather, their fathers, they did not teach anything. They are learning new. So even you find some fault in their activities, don't think that they are not sādhus. Kṛṣṇa said, api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Sādhu. Sādhu means those who are devotees.

So the symptom of a devotee is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And Kṛṣṇa is sitting in everyone's heart. As soon as He sees that "This particular living entity is very much interested in Me," teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam [Bg. 10.10]. Immediately dictate from within that "You do like this, you do like that." What is that dictation? Yena mām upayānti te. That dictation is favorable for advancing towards Kṛṣṇa. That dictation is favorable to advance towards Kṛṣṇa. Why does He say…., why does He do like that? That is His special favor. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

teṣām evānukampārtham

aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ

nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-(stho)

jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

[Bg. 10.11]

This is Kṛṣṇa's business. Responsive cooperation. As you advance, as you try to serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely, sevonmukhe ji jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. We cannot realize Kṛṣṇa or God by mental speculation or by material advancement. We have to render service to Kṛṣṇa. Then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased and He will give you dictation from within how we can make advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is the successful life of human form of existence.

Thank you very much. (end)

710331LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, March 31, 1971

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your participating in this meeting, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very much authorized. It is nothing like concocted mental speculation. It is authorized on the basis of Vedic knowledge, specifically, directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, five thousand years ago when there was no history of other religion. In the modern age, any religion you can take into consideration, they are not older than 2,600 years. But so far this Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, it was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra five thousand years ago.

We should consider what are the religion of the world 2,600 years ago because modern history cannot place before you any chronological list of religious evolution within 2,600 years. There was human society before 2,600 years. And what was their religion? We think, from Vedic evidences, the whole world was in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There was one God, Kṛṣṇa; one scripture, Bhagavad-gītā; one consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness; and one work, service of the Lord. From Mahābhārata, the great history of India, we can understand that up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the whole world was ruled by one flag, this Vedic culture. Gradually it deteriorated, as we have practical experience. Twenty years ago there was no Pakistan, but now Pakistan is existing. Similarly, the whole planet was known as Bhārata-varṣa. This Bhārata-varṣa name was after the king Mahārāja Bhārata, the son of Ṛṣabhadeva. Before that, this planet was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa. And after the king Mahārāja Bhārata-he was a great king-he also left his kingdom at the age of twenty-four years, very young boy, for searching after spiritual realization, self-realization. That is the way of Vedic culture or Indian culture. Not that up to the last point of our death we shall stick to the worldly affairs. The Vedic culture divides the whole society into four social orders and four spiritual orders. The four social orders is division of intelligence. The most intelligent class of men are called the brāhmaṇas. And next than the brāhmaṇas are the kṣatriyas. It is all calculated on the basis of intelligence. There are different kinds of people all over the world on account of more or less intelligence. So brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men. The scientists, the poets, the philosophers, like that. The religionists, they are called brāhmaṇas. And the administrator class is called the kṣatriyas, and the productive class are called the vaiśyas, and the laborer class, or the working class, is called the śūdra. That is natural division.

In the Bhagavad-gītā… We are trying to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to preach Bhagavad-gītā. We have not invented something, but we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Therefore, because we are presenting pure Bhagavad-gītā, people are accepting it very quickly. Unfortunately, before this in the Western countries there was so many translation of Bhagavad-gītā, but everyone's attempt is to make Kṛṣṇa-minus Bhagavad-gītā. They are commenting Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa; kingdom of God without God. That is their attempt. But we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. We are presenting in that way. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa in the Western world. When I first went there the people were saying, "God is dead." Exactly in the same way as in our country also. We have been misled by so-called leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. There is a statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

But actually we are misled by the so-called blind leaders. They have no vision what is the actual goal of life. Not only in a particular country-everywhere the same mischief is going on. Therefore, as a blind man, if he leads other blind men, there will be catastrophe, similarly, because we are led by blind men, the whole world is in catastrophe. Nobody is in peace. Everyone is unsatisfied in spite of so much material education, advancement of material education, because the missing point is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31].

So the Vedic literatures, the Vedic civilization, is pointing out to Viṣṇu. As you know in the Ṛg mantra, Ṛg Veda: tad viṣṇuṁ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Those who are actually intelligent, brāhmaṇas, they are looking after self-realization, making the target on the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. That is the missing point. In the Bhagavad-gītā we are taught by the Lord Himself to give us enlightenment, what is the aim of life. That aim of life the Lord Kṛṣṇa says Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The ultimate target of life is to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā's teaching. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam.

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ

vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd cāham

[Bg. 15.15]

Unfortunately, we do not understand or do not try to understand or do not like to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. If we try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then we have to accept a certain prescribed process. Not that because one is very erudite scholar academically, because one has got some degrees of the university he will be able to understand Bhagavad-gītā. It is not like that. Even a very layman, illiterate man, without any understanding of the Vedas, if he is a devotee, he can understand Bhagavad-gītā, whereas a person, very erudite scholar, with reputation, he cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. I shall cite one example when Lord Caitanya was traveling in the South India. When He was in the Raṅganātha temple of South India, one brāhmaṇa was reading Bhagavad-gītā, and his friends and neighbors knew that the brāhmaṇa was illiterate. He could not know even what is written there, but still he was trying to read Bhagavad-gītā. So some of his friends were criticizing him: "Hello, brāhmaṇa. How you are reading Bhagavad-gītā?" He knew that "They are criticizing," so he remained silent. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw that he was reading Bhagavad-gītā with transcendental ecstasy. He therefore approached him, "My dear brāhmaṇa, what you are reading?" The brāhmaṇa could understand that this gentleman, or this sannyāsī-Caitanya Mahāprabhu at that time was a sannyāsī-He was not joking. He was serious. So he informed Him, "My dear sir, I am reading Bhagavad-gītā, but I am illiterate. My Guru Mahārāja asked me to read Bhagavad-gītā a few chapters daily, although he knew that I am illiterate. So I am trying to read Bhagavad-gītā, but I cannot actually read it." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "But I sometimes see that you are in full ecstasy and sometimes you are crying." He said, "Yes, sir. I feel some ecstasy." "What is that?" He said that "As soon as I take this Bhagavad-gītā in my hand I feel that Kṛṣṇa is the chariot driver of Arjuna. So I feel that how Kṛṣṇa is kind that He has accepted a menial service of His devotee. He is driving the chariot and Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta: [Bg. 1.21] 'My dear Kṛṣṇa, Acyuta, please put up my chariot between the two soldiers.' And He is carrying out the order. So when I see that Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He can become an order carrier of His devotee, that is giving me feeling, and I am therefore crying." Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately embraced him and said, "My dear brāhmaṇa, you are actually reading Bhagavad-gītā." That is the fact. If after reading Bhagavad-gītā we do not realize what is Kṛṣṇa, what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, what is our duty towards Kṛṣṇa, and what is the ultimate goal of life, then it is useless study. It has no meaning. Therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa prescribed it, how to read Bhagavad-gītā. Don't try to read Bhagavad-gītā made by some commentator who has no knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. One who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he has no business to comment on the Bhagavad-gītā.

That is the purport stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You'll find in the Fourth Chapter, Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha (mahatā)

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

[Bg. 4.2]

So Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, this Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān spoke to his son Manu. And Manu, by his turn, spoke to his son Mahārāja Ikṣvāku." So if you take the history of Manu, then it becomes 400,000's millions of years ago Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So Bhagavad-gītā is not a new thing. If we accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, if we believe in the words of Bhagavad-gītā, or Kṛṣṇa, then Bhagavad-gītā is the oldest. It is not a new thing. It was long, long ago spoken to the sun-god Vivasvān. The sun-god, the president or the predominating Deity in the sun planet, is known as Vivasvān. So we have to study Bhagavad-gītā as it is by the paramparā system. As Śrī Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Not that whimsically somebody purchases a book from the market and he takes his pleasure to make an interpretation of his own intelligence. Bhagavad-gītā was spoken by Kṛṣṇa. He did not leave it for being interpreted by an ordinary man. There is no need of explaining Bhagavad-gītā in a different way.

Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā we understand the statements very clearly:

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

[Bg. 1.1]

The meaning is very clear. Dharma-kṣetre: the land of pilgrimage, the holy land of pilgrimage; kuru-kṣetre: the land which is known as Kurukṣetra. It is not fictitious. It is actual fact. Still there is Kurukṣetra, and people go there to perform religious ritualistic ceremonies. And in the Vedas it is written clearly, kurukṣetre dharmam ācaret. That is the statement of the Vedas. So from time immemorial this Kurukṣetra, land of Kurukṣetra is known as dharma-kṣetra. So what is the difficulty to understand dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately, some unscrupulous commentator says that "Kurukṣetra means this body." Where is the chance of interpreting like that, "Kuru-kṣetre is meaning body"? In no dictionary you will find that kuru-kṣetra is meant by body. Neither there is any chance. Interpretation is required when you cannot understand the word very clearly. In that case you can interpret. Just like the example is gaṅgāyāṁ ghoṣapali: "There is a neighborhood which is known as ghoṣapali on the Ganges." Now one may question how on the Ganges, Ganges is water, there can be a neighborhood? Then you can interpret that "It is not on the Ganges water, but it is on the bank of the Ganges." Then there is chance of interpretation. But when you can clearly understand that "The thing is like this: Kurukṣetra is a place, and that is a place of pilgrimage," why should you interpret that Kurukṣetra means the body? In this way Bhagavad-gītā is being misinterpreted. In the Ninth Chapter, when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], one great commentator, very erudite scholar, he says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa; it is to the unborn principle which is within Kṛṣṇa." But he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and he has the audacity to comment on the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa is not different from within and without. Kṛṣṇa, being Absolute, there is no such difference. As we have got difference, I, the spirit soul, is different from my body, but Kṛṣṇa is not like that. There is no such difference that Kṛṣṇa's soul and Kṛṣṇa's body. Kṛṣṇa is complete whole, pūrṇa. There is no such difference. The person who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, if he tries to comment upon the transcendental knowledge imparted by Kṛṣṇa, that is simply impudent. So in this way, if we try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then we become liberated, we become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the objective of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, "Arjuna, I am trying to deliver this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā unto you because you are My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam [Bg. 4.3]. "Without you, nobody can understand what is the mystery of this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge."

Therefore we should understand that Bhagavad-gītā is meant for a person who is a devotee and dear to Kṛṣṇa, not for the demons, who are against Kṛṣṇa. The demons are trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kaṁsa: his only business is making plan how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Just like Rāvaṇa: his only business is how to kill Lord Rāma. So there are two classes of men. One class of men is called demigod, devatā, and the other class is called demon. And who is demon and who is devatā? Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved deva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. One who is devotee of Lord Viṣṇu, he is called deva, demigod. All the demigods like Sūrya, Candra, Indra, and many others, they are all appointed servants of Kṛṣṇa. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, therefore, it is said,

ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya

yāre yaiche nācāya se taiche kare nṛtya

[Cc. Ādi 5.142]

Very simple language: "The only master, only īśvara, parameśvara, is Kṛṣṇa." That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā also:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is confirmed, ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Even Śaṅkarācārya, whom we call impersonalist, he has accepted in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead appearing as the son of Devakī and Vasudeva." Similarly, all other ācāryas-Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, and lately, Caitanya Mahāprabhu… Of course, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is both ācārya and Kṛṣṇa Himself. Apart from His being Kṛṣṇa, if we take the part which He played as ācārya, that is, He also accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. So we are to follow the ācāryas, not these casual interpretations, interpreters, to understand Bhagavad-gītā. Then we will be misled. We cannot understand. Because Kṛṣṇa says that "The mystery of Bhagavad-gītā will be understood by you because you are My very dear friend." So… "Because you are My devotee." So unless one is devotee, how one can understand Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa says plainly in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yas cāsmi tattvataḥ: [Bg. 18.55] "Only through devotional service one can understand." Although Kṛṣṇa has explained in the Bhagavad-gītā jñāna, yoga, karma, and other things, dhyāna, but He specifically recommends that simply by devotional service you can understand Him. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, the same thing is confirmed:

evaṁ prasanna-manaso

bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ

bhagavat-tattva-vijñānam…

[SB 1.2.20]

Bhagavat-tattva-vijñānam. It is a science. It is not a mental speculation or whimsical theorizing, that "God may be like this, God may be like that," and different philosophers will differ from one another. It is not like that. It is a great science. As two plus two equal to four, nobody can make it "Two plus two equal to five" or "Two plus two equal to three." Anywhere, science is science, fact. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā you cannot interpret differently. Just like "Two plus two equal to five"-that cannot be. You have to accept "Two plus two equal to four."

So if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you will be benefited. Our process of preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is only that we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. And you are practically seeing that all over the world this Bhagavad-gītā principles, Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord, is being accepted. All these boys and girls who are dancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, four years ago, four years back, they never heard of Kṛṣṇa. Of course, some of them knew Bhagavad-gītā, because Bhagavad-gītā is very widely read. But because Bhagavad-gītā was not properly presented, although for the last hundred or two hundred or more than that years, Bhagavad-gītā is widely read all over the world, there was not a single Kṛṣṇa-bhakta. But since Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, within four years there are hundreds and thousands of Kṛṣṇa-bhaktas. That is our point, that you present the thing as it is, without any adulteration. Just like milk, pure milk, if you supply, automatically there will be many customers. But if you sell milk adulteration, adulterating with water, you can cheat somebody for some time, but you cannot cheat all for all the time. That is not possible. So it is now necessary. It is India's culture. People are hankering after this culture, Kṛṣṇa culture. So you should prepare yourself to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then India will conquer all over the world by this Kṛṣṇa culture. Be… Rest assured. We are hankering after help from others. Our government men go there in America: "Please give us wheat. Please give us money. Please give us soldiers." Simply begging business. But here is a thing which (you) can give to them. Simply begging does not glorify your country. Try to give something to the others, to other countries. That is the mission of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (applause)

Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

We are meant for doing welfare activities to the whole world. We are not meant for exploiting. We have something to give to the whole world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the mission of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says, "Everyone who has taken birth as a human being of this, in this country, Bhārata-varsa…" Specifically He said,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Without being human being, nobody can perfect his life. Animal, they cannot make perfect his life. It is not possible. By nature they are stopped. But a human being, he can perfect his life. And especially in India there is treasure of knowledge, Vedic knowledge. Why you neglect it? And the summarized knowledge is Bhagavad-gītā. So if we simply try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we understand immediately the science of God. And because we are all parts and parcels of God, we are actually hankering after uniting with God. That is our seeking. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). God is ānandamaya, and we, being part and parcel of God, or Kṛṣṇa, we are also ānandamaya. But we are seeking ānanda in a different atmosphere, in the material atmosphere. Therefore we are being baffled. The only remedy is that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy.

So it is the duty of every Indian to understand this science. It is a science, and spoken by the Lord Himself, and understood by all the ācāryas. Kṛṣṇa says ācāryopāsanam. We have to understand things through the ācāryas. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. One who is not following the footsteps of the ācāryas, he cannot understand anything. Kṛṣṇa also says tad-vijñānārtham. No, Kṛṣṇa… That is said in the Kaṭhopaniṣad: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. So everywhere the same instruction is there, that "You approach a person who is coming in disciplic succession," evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2], "and try to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Your life will be sublime. Your life will be successful." That is our mission. We have given so many important books. We have got magazines. If you want to understand through intelligence and philosophy, we have got volumes of books we can deliver. You try to understand. If you simply read our book Kṛṣṇa in two parts, I am sure you will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, undoubtedly. Or if you feel that you cannot read or you have no money to purchase book, never mind. Lord Caitanya has given you very simple path: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. If you chant this mantra with faith and devotion, without any offense, but simply by chanting you will realize yourself, you will realize God, Kṛṣṇa, and your life will be successful. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. These are the statements of Vedic literature. Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one can cleanse his heart of all the dirty things. And as soon as the dirty things are moved, then you become liberated. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Immediately the blazing fire of material existence is extinguished.

These are the processes recommended in the Vedas. We are simply preaching the authorized principles of the Vedas, and we request you all to accept it. Not accept it blindly, but take it with all your reason and intelligence. Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta says,

caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra

vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra

It is not that we are forcing something. By force you cannot do anything. That is artificial. That is not… But it is a fact that in everyone's heart there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness because that is pure consciousness. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, naturally, just like father and the son, there is an eternal relationship. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we have got eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is now covered by the dirty things of māyā. But as soon as we remove, we cleanse these dirty things from our heart, then immediately we can understand what is Kṛṣṇa and what is our relationship with spirit.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Everyone's heart, there is Kṛṣṇa bhakti. Otherwise, how these Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Japanese, they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? We have Muhammadans also. Many Muhammadans, they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore it is to be understood that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or love for Kṛṣṇa, is existing in everyone's heart. It is simply to be awakened. Nothing more. How it is awakened? Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya. if you simply give your aural reception to the Kṛṣṇa kathā. Kṛṣṇa kathā means what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the Bhagavad-gītā, and Kṛṣṇa kathā means speeches and words which are spoken about Kṛṣṇa. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is also Kṛṣṇa kathā, and Bhagavad-gītā is also Kṛṣṇa kathā. One is directly spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa, end one is spoken by Lord, I mean to say, Vyāsadeva, the great saint Vyāsadeva, about Kṛṣṇa. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "You preach this Kṛṣṇa kathā to everyone and then you become a spiritual master under My order."

So if we strictly follow these principles, if we simply say what Kṛṣṇa says, what Kṛṣṇa desires… Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If you cannot do anything, simply speak to your friend, "My dear friend, please surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." You surrender first of all yourself and speak to others, "Please surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Your life becomes sublime and successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause) (end)

710406LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, April 6, 1971

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and gentlemen, we are very much thankful to you for your kindly participating in this great movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is especially meant for this age because for self-realization, although there are many methods recommended in Vedic scriptures, in this age the greatest common factor for self-realization is simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Actually, our miserable condition of life is due to our forgetfulness. As I said yesterday, day before yesterday, this material existence is a condemned position of the living entities, exactly like a criminal is placed in the prisonhouse. Now, the whole Vedic literature is meant for getting us liberated from this condition of life. So far Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, the same aim is there because at the ultimate instruction, Lord Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the ultimate goal. We have to come to that point, to surrender unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may take hundreds of years or hundreds of births, but unless we come to that point, our life is simply frustration. Śrama eva hi kevalam. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said,

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

[SB 1.2.8]

You can execute. You may have some particular type of religious system which you are following. It doesn't matter. But if that following your religious system, if you do not come to the point of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or if you do not become interested in the matter of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you should know it that your performances of all religious ritualistic ceremonies are simply waste of time.

So how to come to the point of surrendering to the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is taught in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. So I shall… I have given you some introduction to the Bhagavad-gītā, that this Bhagavad-gītā contains subject matter relating to God, to the living entity-īśvara, jīva-and prakṛti, and the time factor, and karma. Now, in the beginning, the six chapters in the Bhagavad-gītā are simply devoted to understand what is the constitutional position of the jīva. The living entities are eternal. That is stated in the Second Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ… [Bg. 2.13]. [break]… dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura [Bg. 16.6]. Asmin loke, in this world, there are two kinds of living entities, not only in human society but also in animal society, in trees, in plants, in… There are 8,400,000 species of life-aquatic, plants, trees, reptiles, insects, birds, beasts, then human beings, civilized human beings, noncivilized human beings. And altogether, there are 8,400,000 species of life, and they are divided into…[break]

…man's body. So… But I am the same. I can remember some of the incidences of my childhood, of my boyhood, of my youthhood. Therefore I am permanent. That is the real understanding of the living entity. These things have been explained very vividly. And in the Sixth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa recommended how to practice yoga. Yoga is the beginning of linking up our lost relationship with the Lord, yoga. Yoga means adding, addition or linking. Because we are now forgotten… The yoga system, any yoga system, means… Bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga-there are different names of yogas-but actual fact is how to link up our lost relationship with the Supreme Lord. That is called yoga. Yoga indriya-samyamaḥ. Indriya. Because we are being deviated from our eternal relationship with God, Kṛṣṇa, on account of our too much being engaged in sense gratification. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Lord says, Kṛṣṇa says, "Those who are too much after bhoga and aiśvarya, material enjoyment and material opulence," prasaktān āṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, "whose heart has been taken away by the process of sense gratification, for them, it is very difficult to be situated in samādhi." Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām. So yoga, yoga means to control the senses. Those who are too much in the bodily concept of life, for them, this haṭha-yoga is prescribed just to control the sense by some mechanical way. You sit down, āsana, prāṇāyāma, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, pratyāhāra. There are eight different stages of fulfilling the yoga practice and then coming to the position of samādhi. Samādhi means fully situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real samādhi. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gata-manasā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gata-manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. This is the definition of yogi. They are in meditation, and the mind, being absorbed in the thought of Viṣṇu, and yaṁ paśyanti yoginaḥ. The yoginaḥ, by controlling the senses, concentrating the mind upon Viṣṇu, they become yogi. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gata-manasā: mind is absorbed in the thought of Viṣṇu. That is perfection of yoga. So that is one method. Those who are too much, I mean to say, thinking of this body, for them, this haṭha-yoga system is prescribed. But the aim of that haṭha-yoga system is to see or search out the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, and by this yoga practice, by samādhi, one is situated constantly seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead Viṣṇu. That is samādhi.

But there is another method, supreme method. That will be explained in the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā. At the end of the Sixth Chapter the conclusion is,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

madgatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

"Anyone who is always thinking of Me within his mind," śraddhāvān, "not mechanically, but with faith and love," śraddhā, and bhajate-bhajate means bhaja sevayam, engaged in the service-"such person is the first-class yogi." That is recommended by Kṛṣṇa. And in the bhakti-yoga system, the same thing is also recommended:

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yam śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.38]

This is spoken in the Brahma-saṁhitā by Lord Brahmā. He says that "The devotee whose eyes are smeared with the ointment of love of Godhead…" Just like we sometimes use surma for clarifying our eyesight, similarly, one whose eyesight is purified… We have to purify the position of our senses in order to perceive. With our present senses, materialistic senses, we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, or God. It is not possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. He is not… Kṛṣṇa is not perceivable by our material senses. "Then why you are troubling so much, because you have nothing but material senses?" No. It can be purified. How it can be purified? By love of God. When you evolve your dormant love of Godhead, your vision becomes different. That is called premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. They are also yogis. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ [Bg. 6.47]. The same process. Either you go through the haṭha-yoga process or jñāna-yoga process, the ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa, ultimate goal is Viṣṇu. And if we miss this point, then… The Bhāgavata says,

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

So the verdict of all śāstras, Vedic literatures, is aiming how to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the version of all Vedas. So Kṛṣṇa here in the Seventh Chapter, recommending personally. Kṛṣṇa is teaching the process how you can understand Kṛṣṇa. You haven't got to learn some art and method how to understand Kṛṣṇa from anyone else. You can understand directly from Kṛṣṇa. That is the process. The Bhāgavata says, athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi [SB 10.14.29]. Without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the process. The Vedas also says, nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena: "One cannot understand the Supreme Soul simply by lecturing." Pravacanena. If one is very expert in lecturing, it does not mean that he has realized Kṛṣṇa. Na medhayā. Or if one has very good brain-a great scientist, great philosopher-he can understand Kṛṣṇa? Veda says, "No." Na medhayā na bahunā śrutena: "If one is very learned in Vedic literatures, he also cannot understand Kṛṣṇa." But one who is favored by Kṛṣṇa or when Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself to somebody, being satisfied with his devotional service, he can understand Kṛṣṇa; nobody else. Therefore the process ultimate comes to the bhakti-yoga. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find that nobody understands Kṛṣṇa.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

To understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, tattvataḥ, it is very difficult. Out of many hundreds and thousands of people one tries to make his life successful by spiritual advancement, by accepting so many processes, jñāna-yoga, karma-yoga, dhyāna-yoga. And out of many perfect persons…, or, not perfect. Out of many persons who have succeeded in such processes, one may understand Kṛṣṇa. That is difficult also. So without Kṛṣṇa's mercy… The conclusion is: without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is futile to explain Kṛṣṇa, to comment on Bhagavad-gītā, without being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. It is not that because one is very learned scholar or because one is very learned scientist or philosopher… Without any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible for him to understand Kṛṣṇa. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi [SB 10.14.29]. Na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Others, they may go on speculating for thousands and thousands of years; still, they will not be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the Seventh Chapter, He is teaching how to understand Kṛṣṇa, how to realize Him. That realization, He says,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

"My dear Arjuna, now I shall speak to you how you can understand Me thoroughly." Of course, it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa thoroughly. That is not possible. But still, as far as our knowledge is concerned, we can get an idea of Kṛṣṇa if we follow these instructions. Kṛṣṇa is unlimited; we are limited. Therefore, however we may become advanced, it is not possible for us to understand the unlimited. That's a fact. But still, we can understand to some extent by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, not otherwise. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mayy āsakta-manāḥ. One has to develop his mind being always attached to Kṛṣṇa. Āsakta. Āsakta means attachment. This āsakti is also not attained very easily, but there is a process. If we follow the process, as recommended by the authorities, then there is way. And one who is serious to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa, they must follow the methods prescribed by the mahājanas. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you follow the footsteps of great personalities, great ācāryas, then that is the way. You don't manufacture your own way. Then you will be frustrated. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. So who can be greater mahājana than Kṛṣṇa? All mahājanas, they are great devotees of Kṛṣṇa; therefore they have become mahājanas. Just like Svayambhū, Lord Brahmā, Nārada Muni… Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [SB 6.3.20]. Śambhu, Lord Śiva. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilaḥ kaumāraḥ, kapilo manuḥ. Kaumāra, the four Kumāras, Sanat Kumāra, Sunanda, these four Kumāras, and kumāraḥ kapila, Kapiladeva, the original propounder of Sāṅkhya philosophy, Kapiladeva; and Manu, you know, Manu-saṁhitā, the law-giver to the mankind, Svayambhuva Manu, Manu. And Prahlāda Mahārāja, whose instructions we were discussing in the morning. Prahlādo janaka-rāja bhīṣma, the grandfather of the Kurus. Vaiyāsaki, Śukadeva Gosvāmī; or Bali Mahārāja, a grandson of Prahlāda Mahārāja, he is also an authority. And Yamarāja, he is also authority. So we have to follow these authorities. Otherwise, dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām: we cannot understand the secrecy of religion. So all these twelve mahājanas, they are great devotees of the Lord. Therefore they have become mahājanas, authorized persons.

Now here Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā, taking compassion on the fallen souls of the Kali-yuga, He is personally instructing. How much fortunate we are. Although we are born in this age, fallen age of Kali-yuga, still, we are so much fortunate that Kṛṣṇa personally is taking interest how to teach us. He comes personally as He is, Lord Kṛṣṇa. And still, when He is misunderstood, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11], again He comes as a devotee, Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya was detected by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

He understood that Lord Caitanya is no other than Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, but He has appeared as a devotee just to deliver love of Kṛṣṇa to everyone. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Kṛṣṇa-prema, love of Godhead, love of Kṛṣṇa, one who delivers, one who gives in charity the love of Godhead, he is called mahā-vadānya, the greatest of all munificent persons. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. So there is a program of Kṛṣṇa. Sometimes He comes Himself, sometimes He comes as a devotee, sometimes He leaves behind Him instructions like Bhagavad-gītā, and sometimes He authorizes somebody to preach this cult. Of course, anyone who is a sincere devotee, he is authorized. That Kṛṣṇa, as Lord Caitanya, has said personally, āmāra ajñāya guru hañā tāra ei [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Our only business is to follow the superiors. Just like a faithful servant, if he simply follows the instruction of the master, then he is perfect. If he does not adulterate the instruction of the master, then he's perfect.

It is not that those who are preaching this Kṛṣṇa cult, they are all perfect. There may be many deficiencies. Any conditional soul has got four deficiencies naturally. He is to commit mistakes. However great man he may be, surely, because he is conditional soul, he'll commit mistake. You know. In our country Mahatma Gandhi, he was a great man undoubtedly, but he also committed mistake, so what to speak of us? A conditioned soul must commit mistake. And he must be illusioned. To accept something as something else, that is called illusion. Just like illusion, best example of illusion, is given that māyā-marīcika, to accept water in the desert. An animal sees that there is water in the desert, and being thirsty, he goes after the water, but the water also makes progress, and he also makes progress. In this way he dies. That is called illusion. Actually, there is no water, but he is fleeing after water. So for conditioned soul these are the defects. He is to commit mistake, he is illusioned, and he has got a cheating propensity also. Everyone is thinking in transaction that "I have cheated that man very nicely. In business transaction I have gained; he has lost." And of all the deficiencies, most important deficiency is that our senses are imperfect. We say, "I want to see God," but we forget that our eyes are so imperfect that I cannot see in the nearest eyelid. As soon as I close my eyes, I do not see the eyelid. This is the power of my seeing. Therefore we should not be so much proud of our seeing power that we'll say that "I want to see God. Can you show me God?" This is not possible.

So these four deficiencies of conditioned soul are there; therefore we cannot have perfect knowledge by our mental speculation. That is not possible. We have to receive knowledge from authorities. That is the process. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If we receive knowledge… Our process is that we are trying to receive knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the greatest mahājana, the greatest authority, and if we follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then we are perfect. The same example, as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

āmāra ajñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

This is necessary. It is not that you have to become completely perfect by following certain process. If you simply perfectly follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then you become perfect. Other processes, yoga, dhyāna, karma, jñāna… There are many processes to make oneself perfect, but even becoming perfect, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yoginām. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddhaye means perfection. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. Even you become perfect, still, it is doubtful whether you have understood Kṛṣṇa. This is the position.

Therefore the conclusion is that if you simply follow the perfect instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then automatically you become perfect, however imperfect you may be. That is our duty. It is not very difficult. Just like a child, a boy, a child. He's asking father, "My dear father, what is this?" An intelligent child questions like that. The father explains, "This is this," and the child accepts. Then his knowledge is perfect. But if he accepts the instruction of the father or mother, immediately he becomes perfect. There are many other examples. Just like a child wants to know who is father. The mother says, "My dear child, this gentleman is your father"-that is perfect knowledge. But if the child wants to research who is his father, it is impossible to find out. Similarly, if we want to know the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, or God, we have to take instruction from the supreme father, not speculating, just like by speculating we cannot understand our ordinary father without the instruction of mother. If you go on speculating, "He may be my father. He may be my father. He may be father," go on speculating, but you will never understand who is your father. But you accept the authoritative statement of your mother, that "He is your father"-that is perfect knowledge. That process should be accepted. Otherwise, our position is very precarious.

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi

na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ

sevonmukhe hi jihvādau

svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 17.136]

These, our present senses, are very blunt, imperfect. It is to be purified by sevonmukha, being eager to serve Lord Kṛṣṇa. Then our senses will be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means without any contamination. At the present moment our senses are contaminated. I am thinking in so many different consciousness. I am thinking in consciousness of nationality, community, society, friendship-so many ways-but without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore our consciousness is impure. We have to be freed from all the designated consciousness. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "I am not a brāhmaṇa. I am not a kṣatriya. I am not a sannyāsī. I am not a brahmacārī. I am not a gṛhastha." In this way He denied His identity to all these eight kinds of forms and stages, varṇāśrama. Then He said that gopī-bhartur pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa, who is maintainer of the gopīs." This is the identification of Caitanya [Cc. Madhya 13.80].

So we have to follow the mahājanas, great personalities or a great devotee like Caitanya Mahā…, that "I am also the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is our real identity. This is called mukti, liberation. As soon as we understand that "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa," this identification is ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am not this." Brahmāsmi, this concept of life, that "I do not belong to this material world. I am Brahman. I am spirit soul…" So without being spirit soul, how we can become servant of the supreme spirit? Just like without being fire, you cannot remain in the fire, similarly, without becoming Brahman, how we can serve the Supreme Brahman? So this is Brahman realization. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Now, after being purified, what is your position? Not that you become imperson. There are philosophers, that when one becomes identified with Brahman, he becomes immediately imperson. No. We keep our personality. We are never imperson. All of us are individuals. Kṛṣṇa is individual. We are sitting here. We are all individual. So we keep our individuality, but our senses become purified. That is called mukti. Bhāgavata gives the definition of mukti: mukti hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. What is mukti? Mukti means when one gives up his engagement, activities, hitvā anyathā rūpam, identifying himself with something material, and he is engaged in his own original, constitutional position, and that is called mukti. The original constitutional position is every living entity is a part and parcel of the Supreme Person. I have given you several times example. This is stated in the śāstras also. Just like this finger is my part and parcel of this body. It is the duty of the finger to serve the whole body. I want to do like that; the finger helps me. That is the duty of the finger. If the finger cannot do it, then it is to be understood that he is diseased. It is diseased. As soon as the finger cannot give me regular service, it is to be understood that it is diseased. Similarly, any person who is not giving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is diseased, materially diseased. He has to be cured. Therefore the śāstra says, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Just suppose I am a great patriot. I am giving service to my country. That's very good. But I am creating many enemies at the same time because there are other persons who are also interested in their country or community. Therefore that kind of service is not perfect. That is service with designation because I am thinking… I am spirit soul, I am Brahman, I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, or God, but I am thinking that "I am servant of this country, this community, this society, this…" so many things. So one has to become free from the designation. Then his senses will be purified. At that time, with that purified senses, when he renders service to the Lord, that is called bhakti. That is called bhakti.

Bhakti is not a sentiment. It is practical. It is practical, to engage… Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is certified by Kṛṣṇa as bhakto 'si, "My devotee." Does it mean that he was sitting idly? He has gone to Himalaya? No. He was serving Kṛṣṇa personally as a fighter. That is required. That is bhakti. Some gentleman criticized, "Swamijī, your bhakti cult will make people dull because they will simply sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And "No, you have not seen a bhakta. You are misguided," I replied. In our India, two histories are there: the history of Rāmāyaṇa and the history Mahābhārata. And there were two great battles: fight with Rāvaṇa and Kurukṣetra fighting. In these two fightings the heroes were Vaiṣṇavas: Hanumānjī and Arjuna. They are still worshiped as the great Vaiṣṇavas, Vajrāṅgajī and Arjuna. So it is a mistake. Here is the definition of bhakti: tat-paratvena nirmalam, "When your senses are purified by devotional service." Not that your senses are wiped out in mukti. No. The senses are there. It cannot be wiped out. Simply it is purified. Just like if you have got some disease-the same example-in your finger, it is painful. You cannot render service. But when the finger is cured by treatment from the disease, it again gives service. Similarly, those who are not engaged in the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa, they are supposed to be diseased. The degree may be different, that one is very highly diseased, another is very slightly diseased. It doesn't matter. But he is diseased. Therefore this is the curing method. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. When He said? When he was cured of the disease. Kṛṣṇa asked him… (end)

710407LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, April 7, 1971

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Perhaps this meeting will be ended tomorrow and we shall have a nice procession to Chowpati at 4 p.m., and I hope you will all join us as you are usually doing. Actually, according to Caitanya Mahāprabhu and according to the Vedic instructions, this movement should be continued in every city for twenty-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not say that it should be occasional, temporary. He says that kīrtanīyaḥ sadā. Sadā means always. Similarly, Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says also, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā [SB 1.2.18]. One has to cleanse all the inauspicious things within our hearts. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says also the same thing, that ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We have to cleanse the dirty things accumulated in our heart since time immemorial. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said, anādi-karama-phale, pori' bhavārṇava-jale. We do not know when we have begun this conditioned life in this material world. You cannot trace. That is impossible, because this life is not only in this creation, but it is coming from another creation. Suṣupti. Now the creation is going on since the birth of Lord Brahmā, and it will continue for so many millions of years. Again it will be annihilated. As you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This creation takes place exactly like your body, my body. The creation of this body takes place at a certain date. That is the beginning of history. But time is immemorial, I mean to say, eternal. It is all relative truth. The history is relative. Just like my life begins, this body begins somewhere in 1896-something like that-and it ends somewhere. That time limit is relative to my body. Similarly, there is Brahmā's body. That relative time is long, long duration. As you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Brahmā's life is described by Kṛṣṇa, sahasra-yuga-paryantam arhad yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. This Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara, Kali, four yugas, it comes to about forty-three lakhs of years. So combine together, if you multiply it by one thousand, that is the duration of one day's life of Brahmā. Similarly, he has got night. This is only daytime, twelve hours. The similar period, night, that makes twenty-four hours. Then again one month, thirty days and nights. Similarly, one year, twelve months. Similarly, one hundred years. So his duration of life is also one hundred years, but because it is a different person, that truth is relative according to that person. That is scientifically admitted: everything is relative truth, nothing absolute truth.

So we are… It is a fact that we are in a conditioned life. It is not absolute. And the, Kṛṣṇa, He is absolute. He is never conditioned, as we have explained that the three qualities of this material nature are emanation from Kṛṣṇa, but He is not affected by the qualities. Therefore He is called nirguṇa. Nirguṇa, nirākāra, does not mean that He has no form or He has no quality. He has no material qualities, nor He is affected by the material qualities. And ākāra… He is not nirākāra as we understand. We understand nirākāra means formless. But Kṛṣṇa is not formless. Kṛṣṇa has form. That is transcendental form, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is eternal and full of bliss, transcendental bliss, and full of knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa's feature. So we have also got minute quantity of Kṛṣṇa's qualities because we are minute particles of Kṛṣṇa, but that is now covered by māyā. This māyā means… When we forget our actual relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that is called māyā, false egotism. Falsely I am thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am this," "I am that." These are all false designations. Real identification is "I am Kṛṣṇa's." I have repeatedly said. When this realization is achieved, that mahātmā is su-durlabhaḥ, very rare. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Who? One who understands that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "Vāsudeva is the origin of everything." Kṛṣṇa is the origin.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Cause of all causes. That is being explained by Kṛṣṇa Himself personally. You are hearing about God from God personally. How it is that you do not understand what is God? That means you do not try to understand it or you are misled by duṣkṛtina. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This śloka we have discussed partially last night.

So anyone who is trying to divert people's attention from Kṛṣṇa to non-Kṛṣṇa… That is the business of the modern so-called philosophers and educationists or religionists. They'll continue to read Bhagavad-gītā life long but will interpret in a different way so that people may not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. Such persons are called duṣkṛtina. They are themselves also not ready to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and they are misleading others also not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. Such persons are duṣkṛtina, miscreants, rogues, rascals, those who are deviating people in other ways. A great scholar-I do not wish to name-he is writing in his commentary, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You just become My devotee." Mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: "You just worship Me and offer your obeisances unto Me. In this way you will get Me. You will achieve Me." The commentator says… The so-called learned commentator says, "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person but it is the Absolute Truth which is within Kṛṣṇa." That means he is dividing Kṛṣṇa from the Absolute Truth. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no other truth, great truth, than Myself." And he says, "Something greater than Kṛṣṇa within Śrī Kṛṣṇa." That means it is clear that he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and he has the courage to comment on Bhagavad-gītā. That is the pitiable condition. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he is daring to write comments on the Bhagavad-gītā. That is misleading. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, duṣkṛtina. They will produce volumes of books. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ [SB 1.5.10]. Bhāgavata says that "You can produce volumes of books with nice literary, metaphorical arrangements." Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ na pragṛṇīta karhicit. The Bhāgavata says that "You can produce a nice book by mental concoction and speculation with nice grammatical and metaphorical arrangement, but if there is no glorification of Kṛṣṇa, then it is…" What is, like that? Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham: "This is a place where you throw away all nasty things." After your mucus or any, all nasty things you throw away, the crows will come there. They will enjoy. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "Such literary productions where there is no glorification of the Supreme Lord, it is just like the enjoyable spot of the crows." But there is another class of birth who are called swans, rāja-haṁsa. They will not come there. They will not come there and enjoy with the crows. This is natural division. They will go in a place where there is very clear reservoir of water, nice trees, nice fruits and flowers, nice birds, mānasa-tīrthas, mānasa-gaṅgā, like that. They will enjoy there. Similarly, this mental speculation, huge, huge books, will be enjoyed by a class of men who are compared with the crows. But glorification of Kṛṣṇa will be enjoyed by a class of men who are called swans or paramahaṁsas.

So Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they are meant for paramahaṁsa-sādhika-caraṇam, for the paramahaṁsas. Those who are duṣkṛtina, miscreant, crows, they cannot enjoy what is the taste of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna… When He was teaching to him beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, He said, bhakto 'si me priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam: "Because you are My devotee, because you are My friend, very dear friend, therefore I am disclosing you the mysteries, rahasyam." Not anybody can understand Bhagavad-gītā. It is not possible if he does not follow the principles adopted by Arjuna. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg. 4.3]. That is the way of studying Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise, those who are duṣkṛtina, they will take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā for making their business and flatter some other duṣkṛtina miscreants also to mislead them. Because other miscreants, they want to be misled, the asuras. Āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ. What is the āsuri-bhāva, demonic tendency? The demonic tendency is that "I am God." That is called demonic tendency, falsely thinking that "I am God." In spite of all education, they have not the little sense that how he becomes a God. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. We have got His activities. He married sixteen thousand wives, and He constructed sixteen thousand palaces, and He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand forms. Here is one God. And you are or I am sitting here; I cannot expand up to my apartment also, and how I am expecting to be called as God? These are the test. But these people are popular because certain class of men, āsuri-bhāva, they also want to be cheated like that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: [Bg. 7.15] "Those who are miscreants, those who are rascals, mūḍha, narādhama, lowest of the mankind, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, and stolen of his knowledge by māyā, such persons, because they are asuras, demons, they do not surrender unto Me." So we have to take it from the statement of Kṛṣṇa that anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, who does not surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, they are to be understood under these classifications.

Then here is one commentation by a learned scholar and devotee, Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana. He said, nanu cettvām eva prapannā vimucyante, tarhi paṇḍitā api kecit kim iti tvāṁ na prapadyante. Now, if Kṛṣṇa has said simply by surrendering unto Him, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te… Our business is, in the human form of life, how to get out of the clutches or conditions of māyā. We are actually trying to do that. All the scientific improvement, material advancement of knowledge, means that we are trying to avoid the conditions imposed by material nature. That is actually we are doing. Why you have invented this electric fan? Call it, that is material science improvement. Because in the excessive heat we are troubled. And wherefrom this excessive heat comes? It comes from the material nature. Therefore our struggle for existence is to fight with the impositions of the material nature. So Kṛṣṇa says that in this way fighting, you cannot get out of the clutches of māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult. You may have hundreds and thousands of electric fans, but still you will have to feel the effect of excessive heat. You cannot avoid it. Similarly, you may have hundreds or thousands of heating arrangements; still, you have to feel the effects of the cooling effect of winter season. You cannot… Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. We have traveled all over the world. I have seen different climatic influence, how people are suffering. In the Western countries they are thinking that "Indians are very happy because the country is very warm," and we are thinking that "The Western people are very happy because the country is very cold." But nobody is happy; that is a fact-neither the Westerners nor the Easterners-because all of them under the grip of māyā. That is a fact. So in this way you cannot escape the stringent laws of māyā, or material nature. That is impossible. That is said by Kṛṣṇa Himself. It is not my statement. Kṛṣṇa says, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot escape. Suppose you are escaping by some arrangement, by heating arrangement, by cooling arrangement. But that does not mean by that process you will escape the actual laws of material nature. Just like we have got cold storage. We keep fruits and other things in the cold storage. It looks that it is keeping fresh, but the decomposition method is not stopped there. As soon as you take out from the cold storage, it is all rotten. So you cannot escape the actions or reactions of material nature by these methods. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult, duratyayā, most difficult task to get out of the, I mean to say, regulative principles of material nature. Then how it is possible? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Simply by surrendering unto Me one can do it."

So the idea is that… Just like one man is suffering from some disease. The doctor is giving, physician is giving, some medicine and some diet. So if we follow the directions of the physician and eat the diet prescribed by him, there is hope of curing the disease. This is one way. And another person who is suffering from disease but does not care for the physician's instruction or any medicine, he is going on. He is certainly destined to die. As you can understand, similarly, in this material world, both the devotees and nondevotees are there. The devotees, they are trying to be cured from this material disease, and the nondevotees, they do not care for it. They are therefore continuing suffering. We should understand in this way, that… Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana questions that "If by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa we can become out of the clutches of māyā, why the paṇḍitas, why the learned scholars, scientists, and philosophers do not do that?" So he says that tatrāha na mām iti, duṣṭaś ca te kṛtinaḥ, śāstrārtha-kuśalāś ceti duṣkṛtinaḥ ku-paṇḍitās te māṁ na prapadyante śrutiś caivam āha. He is giving evidence from the Vedas how these rascals, they think of themselves as very learned. In the Vedas it is said, avidyāyām antare vartamānaḥ svayaṁ dhīraḥ paṇḍitaṁ manyamānaḥ: "There is avidyā, nescience, ignorance, within, but they are thinking that 'I am very learned.' " That is our another disease. One disease is the troubles and conditions offered by the material nature. So Kṛṣṇa says that in this material world, so long we are, we have to execute the devotional service. But we may not be disturbed by these material conditions. That was advised to Kṛṣṇa, (to) Arjuna.

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyino (nityās)

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

[Bg. 2.14]

Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. So a devotee, his business is that "Because I have got this material body and because I had my past misdeeds, although I am suffering, it does not matter. It comes and goes. It does not matter. Let me do my duty." That is advice of Kṛṣṇa. A devotee is not disturbed by the material condition. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇo [SB 10.14.8]. If there is some reverse condition of life, a devotee thinks, "It is also grace of the Lord because I am minimizing. With minimum trouble, I am minimizing the effects of my past misdeeds." They think like that. So persons who are not devotees, they do not know that only Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He can get me relieved from these material clutches. There is no other way. Hariṁ vinā na mṛtiṁ taranti. We cannot get relief from these clutches of material world unless we surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa therefore says very clearly, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. That is the ultimate end of this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, Bhagavad-gītā. We have to ultimately surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, there is no escape. But those who are miscreants, those who are mūḍhas or narādhamas, they do not do it.

But there are other classes of men who are described in the next paragraph. He says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

These are the classifications of the demons, those who are atheists, faithless and do not accept the Supreme Personality, their description. But there are others. Not that everyone is asura. There are devatās also. Two classes of men are always there: devatā and the asura. So what are the devatās? Catur-vidhā bhajante mam janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg. 7.16]. There are four classes of men whose background is pious activities. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ. The other word is duṣkṛtina, miscreants who are always engaged in sinful activities. And there are others also who are always engaged in pious activities. Therefore śāstra recommends to be engaged always in pious activities: "You do this. You do that. You go to the temple. You take early morning bath. You take bath in the Ganges. You take bath in the Yamunā." That is the basic principles of Indian culture, to make all people sukṛtina. Because without becoming pious, nobody can understand what is God, what is Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The whole civilization is based on the process of making people pious. Because in another place we'll find Kṛṣṇa says that yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇam. Without puṇya-karma, without pious activities, nobody can enter into the devotional service.

yeṣām anta-gatam pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇam

te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

So this process should be adopted, how to become sukṛtina. Sukṛti means yajña-dāna-tapa-kriyā. One must perform sacrifices as prescribed in the śāstras, and they must give in charity their hard-earned money for Kṛṣṇa's cause. That is called dāna. Yajña, dāna, and tapasya. Tapasya. Just like tomorrow is Śrī Rāma-navami. The tapasya will be that all the devotees will observe fasting from morning till evening. This is called tapasya. Just like Ekādaśī day-there is no eating sumptuously. Simply you take little fruits and flowers. Try to avoid that also. You don't take even water. That is really ekādaśī. But because we cannot do it-in the Kali-yuga the time is different-therefore we are allowed to take little fruit and milk, which is called anukalpa. These are different methods of tapasya. And yajña. This yajña, saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajñaiḥ, yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. In this age you cannot perform that big aśvamedha yajña, gomedha yajña, rājasūya yajña, so many other yajñas. It is not possible. First of all, you have no means to perform such yajñas, hundreds and hundreds of tons ghee required for putting into the sacrificial fire. You have not even a drop of your ghee. So forget all those yajñas. In this age, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyaiḥ. That is recommended in the śāstra:

kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ

sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam

yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ

[SB 11.5.32]

So these are pious activities, to perform yajña and to give in charity, yajña, dāna and tapasya, accepting voluntarily austerity. That will make you sukṛtina. And if you actually become sukṛtina, then you'll be inclined. Because the dirty things will be cleansed by these pious activities, then you will understand. Just like when the sky is cleared of all clouds you can see the sunshine very brilliantly, similarly, you can see Kṛṣṇa and God very brilliantly as soon as the cloud accumulated in your heart of all dirty things is cleansed. The process of cleansing in this age is this saṅkīrtana yajña. This saṅkīrtana movement is not unauthorized. It is authorized by the śāstras. And because they are being properly performed, it is taking effect all over the world.

So we have to undergo all these processes recommended in the śāstras-yajña-dāna-tapa-kriyā. So this is yajña, saṅkīrtana-yajña. It is recommended in the Vedic literature that in this age, Kali-yuga, the form of the Lord as kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam, that "He is always engaged in describing or glorifying Lord Kṛṣṇa." Who is that? Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the indicated incarnation in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam [SB 11.5.32]. You have seen Lord Caitanya's picture. He is always followed by many devotees chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, sāṅgopāṅgāstra pārṣadam, especially His associates Lord Nityānanda, Lord Advaita, and Śrīvas, and Gadādhara. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda, śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. These associates, they are Kṛṣṇa-varṇam always. The Lord Himself, Kṛṣṇa, He is always describing about Kṛṣṇa as devotee. He is teaching us how to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Just see how much merciful is Kṛṣṇa upon us. He is coming personally, instructing Bhagavad-gītā, and asking us, "Surrender unto Me. Give up all other business, all other so-called occupations. You surrender unto Me. I shall give you protection from all sinful reactions." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa…, mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't be worried. I'll take charge of you." But still, we do not surrender unto Him. Still, we say, "Oh, this is too much. Kṛṣṇa is demanding too much from us. No, no. We have many other gods. We can surrender there, or we can do our own business." Therefore Kṛṣṇa again comes as devotee, Lord Caitanya. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam. This time, just to hide Himself He is come in very fair complexion, goldenlike, tviṣākṛṣṇam. Kṛṣṇa, naturally He is blackish, but this incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, He came not as blackish but akṛṣṇa, without being blackish. Pitā. That is also confirmed in the śāstra. So this body, this incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, who is always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, but His bodily hue is not blackish, kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam [SB 11.5.32], and He is always followed by His associates, sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam, such Personality of Godhead should be worshiped by yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ. This yajña should be performed. Because without performing yajña, you cannot become pious. So, because in this age there is no possibility of performing big yajñas, there is no qualified brāhmaṇas how to perform that yajña, there is no supply of pure ghee, you have no means how to arrange for such yajña-therefore, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, He is recommending this yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ-this yajña at your home, in your office, in your factor, anywhere, without any cost. Simply you sit down together and clap on your hand and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. (applause)

So by performing this yajña, you become purified. Yajña-dāna. And so far dāna is concerned, that is, of course, different way. You can give in charity. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. You can make charity. Not that because you have no money, you cannot make charity. You can make charity. What is that? You can dedicate your life, prāṇaiḥ. Just like these boys and girls. They have not brought any huge amount of money for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Because this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has not attracted the richer class of America. Now they are little, little coming. But I have attracted the middle class. So they have not brought any money, huge amount of money, but they have dedicated their life, prāṇaiḥ. And those who have got money, they can contribute. Just like we are begging from door to door, "Please become a life member and contribute something so that this movement can be pushed on." Prāṇair arthaiḥ. So if somebody says, "Sir, I have no money, neither I can dedicate my life," then how he will perform the yajña? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā. You can give your intelligence: "So your movement, I appreciate your movement. So please do like this. I will take you to some friend who can help you." That is dhiyā, intelligence. And if you have no, if you cannot dedicate your life, if you cannot sacrifice any money, if you have no intelligence, then vācā, you can use your words. What is that? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You simply go to any friend and advise him, "Please surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." That is also sacrifice. Is there any difficulty or expenditure to accept this saṅkīrtanair yajñaiḥ prāyaiḥ, to accept this saṅkīrtana-yajña movement by anyone? Anyone can accept it, provided he is willing to do it. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice. It is meant for everyone. There is no discrimination. So far we Indians are concerned, we have got some responsibility. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa says… Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu says-He is Lord Kṛṣṇa also-bhārate-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra. Especially for the Indians. Indians have got special prerogative for spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world. (applause)

So why you are neglecting your duty? Prepare hundreds and thousands of preachers from India and send outside. This rascaldom, fighting with one another always, it will be forgotten. There will be one under this flag of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is need of such preachers. We should open regular school or teaching institution for preparing preachers all over the world. That is needed. This Bombay city is very nice city. You can do that. We can help you how to do it. Lord Caitanya Himself preached. Although He was very young man, at that time only twenty-four years old, for preaching work He sacrificed everything. He sacrificed His nice, beautiful wife, He left His old mother, His popularity at Navadvīpa as a great scholar and beautiful boy, and He accepted sannyāsa just for the purpose of preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These are the examples. So Sanātana Gosvāmī, Rūpa Gosvāmī, they were prime minister of the then government of Bengal. They sacrificed their post. They joined Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "Let us help You." Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, he was the biggest zamindar of that time. His father's income was twelve lakhs of rupees per month. How rich he was. He sacrificed everything and joined Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. There were six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Dāsa Raghunātha, and Jīva Gosvāmī, and Gopāla Bhaṭṭa. All, they were very stalwart men of that society. They sacrificed everything. Why? Because Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that

bhārate-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So there is need of this movement. So any intelligent man from India, first of all let him, I mean to say, made his life successful by understanding what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not difficult. The real purpose of this movement? To teach people how he can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is the sum and substance of this movement. If one accepts this principle without any difficulty, he is immediately a preacher. But if he does not accept, he wants to understand the philosophy, we have got volumes of books. Try to understand through books, through philosophy, through science, how this movement is important, and try to join. That is our appeal to you. Now, I think, today we are ending. You shall bear in mind these principles of our philosophy and do your best how to help it.

Thank you very much. (applause) (end)

710410LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, April 10, 1971

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and gentlemen, (applause) we thank you very much for your kindly coming here and participating in this noble movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or saṅkīrtana movement. You'll be very glad to know that today I have received one letter from my disciple, Śrīman Kṛṣṇadāsa adhikārī, the in-charge-of, commander, maṭha-command, or temple command, of West Berlin. He was negotiating with Russian Cultural Society, and one very important professor, he has invited us to lecture in Russia. (applause) So very soon I shall be going to Russia with some of my disciples. (applause)

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: So gradually it will be realized that Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Don't take Kṛṣṇa as Indian or Hindu. Don't limit Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa is unlimited, Kṛṣṇa's activities are unlimited, Kṛṣṇa's devotees are unlimited, and Kṛṣṇa's field of activities, unlimited. So Kṛṣṇa says, yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. (aside:) Why it is not working? Huh?

Devotee: The power is dead.

Prabhupāda:

apareyam itas tv anyāṁ

prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parāṁ

jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

Yaya. Prakṛti. Prakṛti, the energy. Energy is feminine gender; therefore it is stated here yaya. Dhāryate jagat. We are, we living entities, we are superior energy, and the matter is inferior energy. Therefore dhāryate. We are enjoying or we are capturing this material energy. We are using in so many ways. Sayatana (?). Just (like) I am sitting on this material cushion or sitting on the material floor, using this material microphone or having material bedstead, car. In so many ways we are enjoying this material world, yaya. The same prakṛti. Both of them are prakṛtis, energy. One energy is called superior, and another energy is called inferior. Matter is inferior, and the living entities are superior. But in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, both of them are energies. The energies in their particular field of activities, superior or inferior… But still, in connection with Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Absolute Truth, for Him, there is no such distinction, superior and inferior.

Viṣṇu Purāṇa therefore says, viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. Originally, the energy of Kṛṣṇa is transcendental, spiritual.

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā

kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā

avidyā-karma-saṁjñānya

tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

[Cc. Madhya 6.154]

So Kṛṣṇa can change superior energy into inferior energy and inferior energy into superior energy. That is His omnipotency. As such, when Kṛṣṇa appears within this material world, even though He assumes a so-called material body, according to the Māyāvādī philosophers, that is not material. He can change into spiritual. That is His omnipotency. Sambhavāmy ātmā-māyayā [Bg. 4.6]. Just like the electrical engineer, the same electrical energy, he can use it for refrigerator and he can use it for heater. It is his manipulation. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, by His Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, He can turn this material world into spiritual world simply by changing the consciousness. That is in His power. Therefore anything in Kṛṣṇa consciousness should not be considered as material.

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

phalgu-vairāgyaṁ kathyate

That anything… Take for example, just like Māyāvādī philosopher, they say brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But jagat, not mithyā, but temporary. And still, even if it is mithyā, false, it can be turned into truth by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is possible. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that it can transform the matter into spirit. How? Not transform, but the faith or feature is changed. Consciousness is changed. The same example as we have several times recited, that you take an iron rod, put into the fire. It becomes warm, warmer. But when it is red hot, it is no longer iron; it is fire. If you touch that rod, hot iron, in any place, it will burn. Similarly, Vaiṣṇava, by his spiritual advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, makes the whole body spiritualized. Just try to understand the same example. By developing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can make your body spiritualized, completely forgetting all material activities. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5].

Then Kṛṣṇa says,

etad-yonīni bhūtāni

sarvāṇi iti upadhāraya

ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ

prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā

So Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of the material energy, the spiritual energy. And by combination of this material energy and spiritual energy, the whole cosmic manifestation is there. There are two kinds of energies working. Everyone can experience. Just like in my body, I am the spirit soul, and the body is matter, material. When combined together it is working wonderfully. A man is becoming a great leader, a great scientist, a great philosopher, how? So long the spiritual spark is there. As soon as the spiritual spark is gone, the same very body is no longer a great leader, a great scientist, or great philosopher. So both these energies are products of Kṛṣṇa's body. Just like the sunshine is the energy of the sun globe, and within the sun globe there is the sun-god also. We get it from Bhagavad-gītā. In the Fourth Chapter there is mention of the sun-god: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvate [Bg. 4.1]. Vivasvān is the name of the sun-god. At present, the predominating leader, or the principle deity, in the sun planet is called Vivasvān. So he's a person. He's a person, and his globe is the sun globe. And from the sun globe, there is sunshine. Similarly, there is a planet which is known as Goloka Vṛndāvana. In the spiritual world there are millions of planets there. As we have got millions of planets here in this material world, millions of universes, similarly, the spiritual world there are millions of planets, globes, which are called Vaikuṇṭhalokas. And the topmost of the Vaikuṇṭhalokas is called Goloka Vṛndāvana or Kṛṣṇaloka. That is the original abode of Lord Kṛṣṇa. And from that globe, there is effulgence, which is bodily effulgence of Kṛṣṇa. We get this information from Brahma-saṁhitā: yasya prabhā prabhavato jagadāṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. Yasya prabhā. The brahmajyoti is the bodily effulgence of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Exactly the sunshine is the bodily effulgence of Vivasvān, it is being emanating, it is emanating from the sun globe, similarly, the brahmajyoti is emanating from Kṛṣṇaloka. And in that Kṛṣṇa, Brahman effulgence, so many universes and so many Vaikuṇṭha planets are growing exactly the same way as so many planets have grown from the sunshine. This is scientific.

So how Kṛṣṇa is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], you can understand it. If you study, if you take information from Vedic literature, if you attentively think over it, you'll very easily understand that everything is produced out of Kṛṣṇa's bodily effulgence or energy. Kṛṣṇa also personally says here,

etad-yonīni bhūtāni

sarvāṇi iti upadhāraya

ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ

prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā

Aham: "I am." The Māyāvādī philosophers cannot accommodate this idea, how a person can be the cause of creation, maintenance, and annihilation. But Kṛṣṇa here says that ahaṁ kṛtsnasya. Ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], because He is the origin of all energies. We have already understood that the whole manifestation is nothing but, I mean to say, demonstration of the different types of energies of the Supreme Lord. That is confirmed in the Vedas: parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. The Absolute Truth has varieties of energies, and they are so perfect and so perfectly working that it appears…Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. You take a flower, nice flower, how it is nicely painted, how it is symmetrically colored. But it is sprouting from the bud automatically. So we are seeing that if flower is coming out automatically… There is no such thing automatically. It is Kṛṣṇa's energy which is working there. It is Kṛṣṇa's energy. And if the energies are so perfect that we see that it is working automatically, that is because our energy is so limited. If I want to paint one nice flower, I have to arrange for so many things. I have to arrange for the colors, I have to arrange for the brush. I must have the requisite knowledge how to paint it. I have to devote some time for learning how to paint, then actually paint. So many things required. But Kṛṣṇa's energies are so perfect that it appears, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Flowers automatically. That we have to study. And when you concentrate in that study with bhāva, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa, how He is working, how He is the original source of everything. That requires little brain.

Therefore unless one has got very fine brain, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Gross brain cannot understand. In order to make our brain and senses very purified and fine, we have to take to devotional service. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That fine brain and purified senses can be achieved. Just like you can get relief from diseased condition of life, similarly, the brain is already there; it will become finer, it will become subtler to understand Kṛṣṇa when we are able to give up our all material designations. At the present moment I am thinking, feeling, and willing under different designations. I am thinking, "I am this body." I am thinking, "I am Indian." I am thinking, "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am Pakistani." These are upādhis. But if you practice devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become free from this contamination of designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means completely freed from all dirty things. These are all dirty things. As soon as I think that "I am this, I am that, I am that…" Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā we have understood that the body is simply just like a dress. So suppose I am dressed in orange color robes. If I think, "I am orange color," is that very nice intelligence? Similarly, as soon as I think in terms of my body, in my nationality, in my creed, in my being-they are all designations. So purification of the senses made by devotional service, bhakti-yogena, nirmalam… That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also:

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ

kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye

ceta etair anāviddhaṁ

sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati

[SB 1.2.19]

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

[SB 1.2.18]

By daily, regular study or serving Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, anything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead… Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. These abhadras, this designations, can be eradicated simply by regular service to Bhāgavatam. Bhāgavatam means the person who is a devotee, he is also bhāgavata, and the literatures which describe about Kṛṣṇa, that is also bhāgavata. So we have to associate with devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. If you associate with devotees, with pure devotees… And who is a pure devotee?

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

[Brs. 1.1.11]

Those who are executing devotional service without any material desire. Not that I render service to Kṛṣṇa to fulfill some material desires. That is not pure devotee. Pure devotion is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam: [Cc. Madhya 19.167] simply take to such work and activities which will favorably dispose Kṛṣṇa. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.46]. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. As soon as we simply take to such activities as will please the Supreme Personality of Lord, Personality of Godhead… Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Ānukūlyena. As Kṛṣṇa becomes favorably inclined, we have to please Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam.

So we do not know what is Hari, what is God, what is Kṛṣṇa, and what is our activity to please Him. That we have to learn. That we have to learn satāṁ prasaṅgāt, by association with devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Just like if you are a businessman, suppose a sharebroker, if you are a member of the stock exchange, your business is flourishing. You get more opportunities. The scientists, they make some association. Every particular… The lawyers, they make an association, Bar Association. That is needed. The engineer, they make an association. The doctors, they make a medical club. Similarly, if you have to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you have to admit yourself with the society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is necessary. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. Unless you associate with practical devotees, you cannot understand or you cannot relish the transcendental nature of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ. Pleasing, rasāyanāḥ. Relishing some mellows, transcendental mellows. How? Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Simply in the association. Sādhu-saṅge sato vṛtte. Rūpa Gosvāmī instructs that,

utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt

sādhu-saṅge sato vṛtteḥ

ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati

If you actually…, if you are actually serious to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you must be very much energetic, utsāhān: "Yes, I shall learn this art verily in this life." You must be fixed up, dṛḍha-vratāḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is called dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Bhajanti māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. That determination should be "Yes." Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy. Nārada Mahārāja said, "My dear boy, you are king's son. You cannot undergo so much severe austerity. Why you are feeling so much insulted by your stepmother? Please go home." And Dhruva Mahārāja replied, "My dear sir, what you are saying is all right. But I am a son of kṣatriya. I am unpolite. I cannot accept your advice. I must see God. Please show me the way how I can get Him." That is determination, a five-years-old boy saying, "I must see God in this life. If you know something, how to do it, please explain that. Don't try to deviate me." That is determination.

So that determination means utsāhā, "I must." That is necessary. Not that "When Kṛṣṇa is merciful, then I shall do." Kṛṣṇa is already merciful. But if we do not take it, then what Kṛṣṇa will do? Kṛṣṇa does not touch on your little individuality or little independence. So therefore we have… Just like when we earn money, we are very enthusiastic, similarly, if we want Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we want to earn that position, go back to home, back to Godhead, we must be very much enthusiastic, utsāhān. And dhairyāt. Dhairyāt means patience. "Oh, I am executing Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the rules and regulations. Still, I am not yet perfect?" So don't be impatient. Be patient. The example is that any woman desires a child. So when she is married, it is supposed that she will get a child. But if she wants immediately child after being married, that is not possible. She must be patient, then in due course she will be pregnant and there will be child. Similarly, if we are patient, at the same time, very much energetic, utsāhād dhairyāt, and tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. But we must take to the regulative principles by which we can make advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt sato vṛtteḥ. And our occupation should be very nice, honest. Sādhu-saṅge, the sādhu-saṅge, in the association of devotees. These six things: utsāhād dhairyāt niścayād and sato vṛtteḥ, sādhu-saṅga, tat-tat-karma. These six kinds of devotional service will make you perfect. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. These six kinds of activities will make your devotional service perfect. Anything, if you want to do, if you want to learn, there are different regulative principles, anywhere. So similarly, for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for entering into the kingdom of Kṛṣṇa, we have to adopt this means. And similarly, there are counteractivities also. The counteractivities also kill our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to be very cautious not to accept the counteractivities, but we have to take the favorable activities. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167].

So Kṛṣṇa says that,

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat

kiñcid asti dhanañjaya

mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ

sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva

[Bg. 7.7]

"Everything is resting on Me just like the pearls are remaining on the thread." Kṛṣṇa is the thread, and all these universes, all this cosmic manifestation and their different activities in different planets, they are all resting on the thread of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is the original source of everything. How you can accept Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man? I do not know. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. They are described as mūḍhas. They do not know. Although it is all explained here in the Bhagavad-gītā, but they will not accept Kṛṣṇa in that way. They will manufacture a different way of understanding Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are deviated. Therefore, after studying thousand times Bhagavad-gītā, they are as in darkness as they were in the beginning. That is the result. But if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation, without exercising your brain to manufacture something out of Bhagavad-gītā, then naturally you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and our life is successful. Here it is stated, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior factor than Me." Then how we can think of Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being? What is your answer? How do you form such idea? These are the challenges by Kṛṣṇa. And I cannot understand how Kṛṣṇa is accepted as ordinary person. Then either you don't believe in Bhagavad-gītā… That is a different thing. But don't try to malinterpret, wrongly interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. That will not help you. You can propound your own philosophy as you like. Everyone has got the right. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "One cannot be a philosopher, muni, thoughtful man, unless he has got a different philosophy." That's a fact. Everyone wants to propound a type of philosophical method and tries to become famous. That is the natural way. But you make your philosophical presentation in different way. You have got right. But don't try to interpret in Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. That cannot be accepted. And that will not give you the effect of Bhagavad-gītā. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are not presenting Kṛṣṇa in a different way. Our only method is to present Kṛṣṇa as He is. That is our… If there is any credit for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement or for us, now, our credit is that we are not adulterating Bhagavad-gītā. We are simply presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And by Kṛṣṇa's grace it is being understood very easily all over the world, and they are accepting it, that one God, Kṛṣṇa; one philosophy, Bhagavad-gītā; and one hymn, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra; and one nation, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. Just push this movement and the world will be happy. Don't create God: "Here is a incarnation of Kṛṣṇa." Sometimes we accept somebody as God because he says that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa. I am the same Rāma," believing on his word. All right, accept that he may be the same Rāma and same Kṛṣṇa. But when Kṛṣṇa is there, why should we accept an imitation Kṛṣṇa? Why? Suppose if you go to purchase some medicine in a drug shop and the shopkeeper says, "Here is a medicine, sir, which is equally good, but the price is very cheap. You can take it," and if you are sane man, you will say, "No, no. I don't want it. Give me that original. Why shall I take this? Let it be cheaper, but I don't want it." Similarly, why should we accept so-called incarnation of Kṛṣṇa? We should accept Kṛṣṇa, original Kṛṣṇa. Original Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's words are identical. When you read Bhagavad-gītā, you are exactly in front of Kṛṣṇa, as Arjuna was in front of Kṛṣṇa while Kṛṣṇa was personally speaking. That is transcendental nature of Kṛṣṇa. Why He has left this instruction? Because if we accept the teachings of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, immediately we are in presence of Kṛṣṇa. Just like the other day I cited the example of the illiterate brāhmaṇa. So that is transcendental way of understanding Kṛṣṇa. Take this formula. Kṛṣṇa says here that everything that is working in this material or spiritual world, they are different energies of Kṛṣṇa. He is the original source of creation, He is the original source of maintenance, and He is the original source of annihilation. Therefore nobody is greater than Him. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Na anyat: "There is no other greater elevated." Kiñcid asti: "Not even one." You cannot say, "Here is something which is greater than Kṛṣṇa." That is not possible. Na anyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya, mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva. Just like in your necklace, pearl necklace, all the pearls are situated in the thread, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the thread and everything existing… This will be explained more explicitly in the Thirteenth Chapter.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

[Bg. 9.4]

So all the śāstric conclusion is… Now, so far the universes are concerned, that is also stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā:

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya

jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ

viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.48]

So Govinda, the ādi-puruṣa, whose plenary portion is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And what is Mahā-Viṣṇu's activity? That He is lying on the Causal Ocean, and while He is breathing, with His breathing only, innumerable universes are coming out. And innumerable universes are going into Him. In this way He is sleeping. That Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa. So we have to believe in the śāstras, and there is no other way for understanding Kṛṣṇa. What is beyond our imagination, beyond our mental cultivation, beyond the reach of our senses, we have to accept authority. Exactly in the same way, just like we have to accept somebody as our father simply on the version of mother, similarly, we have no information of Kṛṣṇa, but we have got Kṛṣṇa's books, we have got Vedic literatures, and if we study… Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: you have to see through the śāstras. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa and your life will be successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause) (end)

710411LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, April 11, 1971

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in today's meeting. And we are known practically all over the world as the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. Wherever we go, they immediately recognize us as the Hare Kṛṣṇa people. So I'll try to speak something about this Hare Kṛṣṇa people. This Hare Kṛṣṇa people means… Since I started this movement in 1967 in New York, very, in a small scale… In the beginning… I went there in 1965, and for one year I had no shelter, neither any means to maintain myself. I had some books only, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and some way or other, I pulled on. In 1966 I started this movement after incorporation in New York under the state religious act, and I began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra in a park in New York. What is called? Thompkins Square. Thompkins Square. And these young boys and girls, they began to assemble and chant and dance. This is the beginning. And when one well-known poet… Perhaps you know. He is Mr. Allen Ginsberg. He was also coming and joined with us. In this way, first of all we started our center in new York, Second Avenue, and then gradually expanded in San Francisco, in Montreal, in Boston, Buffalo, and Los Angeles. Now we have got fifty-two branches all over the world, including one in Tokyo, one in Hong Kong, in Australia, Sydney.

Now try to understand what is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, recently it was started about five hundred years ago by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared in Bengal, West Bengal, in the district of Nadia, about sixty miles north of Calcutta. And He started this movement. This movement is, of course, not to be understood that Caitanya Mahāprabhu started it, something new. No. It is the oldest, oldest in this sense, that five thousand years ago Lord Kṛṣṇa spoke about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Bhagavad-gītā. And if we go further, then from the statement of Bhagavad-gītā we understand it was started about forty millions of years ago, because in the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, you'll find, there is a statement given by Lord Kṛṣṇa:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

[Bg. 4.1]

Vivasvān manave prāhur… (aside:) Don't sit like that. Manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. It is stated by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself that "First of all I spoke this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, yogam…" Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam. And Vivasvān means sun-god. As there is one god in this planet, maybe the president of United States or some other president, the predominating deity, similarly, in every planet there is a predominating deity. And the predominating deity, or the person, in the sun globe is called Vivasvān. So Vivasvān, his son is Manu. Manu means the father of the mankind. Manuṣya. The Sanskrit word, the man, called manuṣya. That means "of Manu." Man or manuṣya, these words have come from Manu. This Manu happened to be the son of Vivasvān. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. Vivasvān manave prāhur manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. And Ikṣvāku was the son. Mahārāja Ikṣvāku was the son of Manu. Therefore, the dynasty coming from Ikṣvāku Mahārāja, in which Lord Rāmacandra appeared, is called Sūrya-vaṁśa, because it is coming from the sun-god. The kṣatriya family, the royal family in India, there are two groups. One is coming from the sun-god, another coming from the moon-god. That is a long history, of course. But the point is that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not new, something manufactured, concocted. It is the oldest because it is coming from sun-god, and taking it from Manu, it comes to the calculation, about forty millions of years ago.

Now, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means the essence of all religious principles. What is religious principle? Religious principle means to abide by the laws given by God. That is called religious principle, simple word. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "Dharma means the codes and the laws given by God." That is dharma, or religion. Just like in our ordinary life we receive the laws from the state or the king. The word given by the king or the state is accepted as law, and everyone has to abide by the law. Similarly, the order or the principle given by God is called religion. Religion without God is nonsense. Religion… Because religion means the codes of God. So if one does not accept the existence of God, naturally he has no religion. And according to Vedic principle, a man without religion is an animal. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. Because in every civilized form of human society, you will find some sort of religion. It may be Christian religion, it may be Hindu religion, it may be Buddhist religion, or it may be Muhammadan religion, Jewish religion-it doesn't matter. Any civilized form of human society must have a sort of religion. Otherwise it is animal society. What is the difference between animal and human being? The animals, they are engaged with the bodily necessities of life, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam: eating, sleeping, āhāra nidrā, and defending, and sex life. These are the bodily necessities. You have to eat something, you have to sleep for some time, you have to defend yourself from others' attack, and you must have sex enjoyment. These are bodily necessities. So these bodily necessities are there in the human society and the animal society. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etad paśubhiḥ narāṇām. Then what is the speciality of human society? The speciality of human society is that there must be some form of religion. In the animal society there cannot be any form of religion; therefore the śāstric injunction is that without any form of religion, a human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ.

Now, we have to understand what is religion. Religion, as I have already told you, religion means the codes and words given by God, these codes and words coming from God in disciplic succession. According to our Vedic principles… That is the original principles of the world. Because at the present moment the history of the world cannot give any chronological account more than three thousand years. And what was the position of the human society beyond these three thousand years? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. From Mahābhārata history we can understand that the whole world, this planet, was called Bhāratavarṣa. Now Bhārata-varṣa has come to a limited circle only, but formerly the Bhārata-varṣa was… The whole planet was known as Bhārata-varṣa. There was an emperor of the name Mahārāja Bhārata, under whose name, or after his name, this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Before that, this planet was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa. So the Vedic civilization, I mean to say, before three thousand years, the whole world was under Vedic civilization, the Aryans. The Aryans, at least they were under Vedic civilization. And that Vedic civilization is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One friend was telling me that in Russia the word kṛṣṇa is there, and kṛṣṇa means beautiful. Somebody told me? You told me? Yes. And in Greek, I mean to say, what is called, dictionary, there is a word krista. And some of the Christians say that this Christ comes from the word krista. So there is a link. Of course, those who are philologists, they can find out what is the history of this word. But so far we have studied the history of the world, Kṛṣṇa was known all over the world. Kṛṣṇa was known all over the world. Therefore it is to be understood that everyone was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

So apart from this historical point of view, try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means pure consciousness. Just like water, when it falls down from the cloud, it is pure, and as soon as it drops or mixes with the muddy earth, it becomes muddy. It is not more clear. Similarly, we, as spirit soul, our consciousness is as pure as Kṛṣṇa is pure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gradually, as we contact the material contamination, we become different conscious. Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentleman here. Some of us thinking that "I am American," some of them are thinking that "We are Indian," some of them are thinking "German," or this or that-"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black." In so many way we are. Our consciousness are polluted. Actually, my position is, as it is said in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman, or spirit soul." In the Bhagavad-gītā we find that when a person becomes realized as Brahman, means spirit soul… Now I am identifying not with Brahman, but I am identifying with this body: "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian." Because by accident I have got this Indian body, I may think, "I am Indian." You may have American body; you may think, "I am…" But we are neither American nor Indian. We are pure spirit soul. This is only an outward dress. Suppose you have got green dress. You don't say that "I am green dress." You say, "I am Mr. John." Similarly, if we say that "I am American," "I am Indian," that is not my real identification. Exactly like that, if somebody says that "I am Mr. green dress," "I am Mr. white dress," as that is not identification, similarly, if I say "I am American" or "I am Indian" or "Englishman," or so many, "Hindus" or "Muslims," that is not my pure identification. My pure identification is that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, or God." That's all. That is pure identification. When comes to this understanding, that "I am eternal servant of God," that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

And what is the characteristic of that brahma-bhūtaḥ stage? The characteristic of brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā by Kṛṣṇa Himself:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti

yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ

tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā

viśate tad-anantaram

[Bg. 18.55]

So the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is described that when one realizes his own self, that is called mukti, liberation. As soon as one understands that "I am not this body. I am something different from this body…" That anyone can understand very easily. That's not a very big job. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Just like in your childhood you were in a body which was called baby or child. Now I am old man. I can remember in my childhood I was so small, but that body is gone. Now I have got a different body. But I am there. This is the understanding. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. By changing body, the eternal soul does not, I mean to say, annihilate. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. This understanding is called Brahman understanding, that "I am eternal. I have no birth; I have no death. The birth and death is pertaining to this body. I am changing body from one body to another." This is called brahma-bhūtaḥ understanding. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is.

So when one comes to this understanding, his characteristics will be that he is jolly. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. He becomes jolly. In the material state everyone is morose, full of anxiety, but in the spiritual life he is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. What is the characteristic of jolliness? That he does not lament, he does not hanker. In the material stage we hanker for things which we do not possess, and we lament for things we have lost. But in the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, as soon as we understand that we are spirit soul, there is no more hankering or lamenting. That is the characteristic of Brahman realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Then you can think of universal brotherhood. So long you are under the category of hankering and lamenting, you cannot think of universal brotherhood. That is impossible. Therefore in spite of so much of conferences in the United Nations, the fighting is going on. The Pakistan is separated on the ground of religion: Hindu, Muslim. Now they are fighting between Muslim and Muslim. Why? Because that disease, hankering and lamenting, is there. It is not brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. And they cannot be on the platform of seeing everyone on equal terms. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is not possible. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means when one is actually on the spiritual platform, he can see everyone on the same category because everyone is spirit soul. Then not only in human society-in other animal society also… Just like there are 8,400,000 species of life. That means the living entity is passing through different types of bodies. This is called learning. This is called understanding. Unfortunately, this learning and understanding, there is none throughout the whole world in any university. Therefore whatever education we are getting, that is not real learning. That is not real learning. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. If one gets actual learning, then he sees equally everyone. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini.

So this is a longer subject matter. It is not possible to explain everything what is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But the actual fact is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring one to his original consciousness. That is the sum and substance, to original consciousness. That original consciousness can be achieved by simple method. What is that? Chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. It is a fact. Just like we have got so many European and American boys and girls. How they have come to this platform? How they have given up their old habits? Naturally these boys and girls were taught from the beginning of their life so many things which is not accepted in Vedic civilization, but they have now given up. There is no illicit sex life amongst our students. There is no meat-eating, there is no intoxication, including coffee and tea and cigarette, and there is no gambling. And they are practiced to Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting not only as you have seen some of the samples. We have got fifty-two branches. In every branch we have got not less than twenty-five up to hundred. So this is the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. It is not story, but it is fact. How it is obtained? It is obtained by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca ya avyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

"Anyone who is engaged in devotional service unflinchingly, without any adulteration, he immediately becomes elevated to the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, immediately." That is stated.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is neither a new movement, nor it is a concocted philosophy. It is based on authorities like Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literatures. And practically you see how it is effective. Simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, these boys and girls, they are elevated. And they have taken the matter very seriously. They are preaching this cult all over the world. So our request to everyone, that whatever you are doing, it doesn't matter. Please take to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That is our only request. You are not losing anything, but you are gaining very much, simply by chanting. It will cleanse your heart. All our misunderstanding is in the heart-all rubbish things we have accumulated after many, many births. So we have to cleanse this. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends by simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, your heart will be cleansed. The mirror of your heart will be cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And immediately you will be able to extinguish the blazing fire of this material existence. These are the different items of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. And He therefore says, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam: "All victory to śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam." So I do not wish to take much of your time. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is very nice, authorized, spiritual, simple and sublime, all at a time. If you kindly take this, you will be benefited, and your life will be successful.

Thank you very much. [break]

Acyutānanda: We have made the statement that we attain a certain amount of bliss by engaging in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Do we deny the fact that other people have attained similar bliss from doing other things, such as…?

Indian man: Such as religion and other.

Acyutānanda: Religion?

Indian man: Yeah, religion.

Prabhupāda: The thing is, there are three qualities of men, and each one's feeling of pleasure is different. Just like there are crows, and there are swans. The crows take pleasure in a different way, and the swans take pleasure in a different way. That is natural. The crows are different from the swans, although they are birds, but because they are being conducted under different qualities of nature, their propensities are also different. So one may take pleasure by howling and drinking, and one man takes pleasure by chanting and dancing in Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is a different quality only. So in the Bhagavad-gītā everything is divided into three divisions. There are religions of different qualities, and there are actions of different qualities. Exactly the same example: as there are differences between the crows and the swans, similarly there are different persons in the human society. One class of person, they take pleasure in one class of thing, and another person, they take in a different type. So that divisions will continue so long we are in this material world. But we are talking of original consciousness. These are contaminated consciousness. When we come to the original consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are trying to bring everyone to that platform. That is our program. [break] …we explain… Just like when the water from the sky drops on the ground, immediately it becomes muddy. Now, if the water drops in too much muddy place, it becomes too much muddy. And if it drops in a clear place, then it remains clarity. Similarly, our coming in contact of this material world means we come in contact of the three qualities of matter: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So if you come in contact with sattva-guṇa, then your position ms very clear, just like sunshine, prakāśa. And if you are in rajo-guṇa, then you are very passionate. And if you are in tamo-guṇa, then you are in darkness. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice that in whatever quality or modes of nature you are in, if you simply chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, all of you come to this transcendental position of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It doesn't matter in what modes of nature and quality you are now existing. If you simply take to this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra you, if not immediately, but gradually you'll be assured to come to the Kṛṣṇa conscious platform. That is our program. (end)

710512LE.SYD

Lecture at Boys' School

Sydney, May 12, 1971

(kīrtana)

Prabhupāda: …very beautiful boys. Why did you not join us, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Is it very difficult? Will you try to chant? Hare. Say Hare.

Audience: Hare.

Prabhupāda: All of you chant, Hare.

Audience: Hare.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Audience: Hare.

(Prabhupāda leads them through whole mantra)

Prabhupāda: There are three words only: Hare, Kṛṣṇa, and Rāma. Is it very difficult? Chant again. Hare.

Audience: Hare.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you cannot chant? You are all dumb? (laughter) How is that? Chant, Hare!

Audience: Hare!

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa!

Audience: Kṛṣṇa.

(Prabhupāda leads them through whole mantra again)

Prabhupāda: Three words you cannot chant? Oh, that is very astonishing. Hare, Kṛṣṇa, and Rāma. Do you know what is God? Can any one of you stand up and tell me what is God? Thank you. Come here. (applause and laughter) Yes. Do you know what is God?

Boy: Yes. God is self-realization, and God is found in the unconscious mind.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (applause) No, no. Don't go away. Don't go away. God is… What is that? What did you say, God, God is…?

Boy: Self-realization.

Prabhupāda: Self-realization. Explain it. What is self-realization?

Boy: Tapping the powers of the unconscious mind and seeing yourself…

Prabhupāda: Do you think mind is unconscious?

Boy: The mind is unconscious.

Prabhupāda: You say "unconscious mind." You just now told me "unconscious mind." Is mind unconscious?

Boy: Most of it is.

Prabhupāda: What did he say?

Bali-mardana: "Most of it."

Prabhupāda: No. Mind is never unconscious. Mind is not for a single moment unconscious. When you sleep, when your bodily limbs are silent, mind works. Therefore we sleep and we dream. Mind always acts. Mind is never unconscious, even not for a second. Now you have to find out what is consciousness.

Boy: I'm not talking about consciousness. The unconsciousness.

Prabhupāda: Unless you know consciousness, how do you describe unconsciousness?

Boy: The unconscious is the id.

Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness is the negative side of consciousness. So you should explain what is consciousness. Then we can understand unconsciousness.

Boy: I didn't say "unconsciousness." I said "unconscious."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unconscious means the negative of consciousness. So you have to explain what is consciousness. Then we can understand what is unconscious.

Boy: Consciousness…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Boy: …is when you can think. Unconsciousness is when you cannot think.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no such position when you cannot think.

Boy: When you are in coma.

Prabhupāda: When you… There is no such position as when you cannot think. You have to think something always. That is our position.

Boy: You can't think when you're in a coma or when you're dead.

Prabhupāda: Then you remember when you were dead. Try to understand what is consciousness, then you will understand what is unconsciousness. Consciousness is spread all over the body. Suppose I pinch in any part of your body: you feel some pain, and that is consciousness, any part of your body. But that consciousness is individual. You can feel the pains and pleasure of your body, and your friend also can feel the pains and pleasure of his body. I can feel pains and pleasure of my body. So this feeling of pains and pleasure is consciousness. But one thing, that I cannot feel pains and pleasure of your body, neither you can feel the pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore your consciousness is individual; my consciousness is individual. But there is another consciousness who can feel the pains and pleasure of your body and who can feel the pains and pleasure of my body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā? Have you, any of you?

Boy (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who says yes? Please come here. Thank you. It is very good. At least one of you know what is Bhagavad-gītā. Don't go away. Please come here. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kṣetra-kṣetra-jñaḥ. Two things are described there. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetra-jña means the knower of the body. Just like "I am." I know this is my finger, this is my leg, this is my head. So I am the knower., And this leg is my body. Is that not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā?

Boy (2): Well, I don't know the Bhagavad-gītā very well.

Prabhupāda: All right. Bhagavad-gītā, in the Thirteenth Chapter, you will find, it is described: the body and the knower of the body. Just like you think over your body, you think over your finger. You will understand that it is your finger. When I think of this finger, I know this is my finger. When I think of this leg, I think that "This is my leg." But I don't think your finger as my finger. This knower is individual, and he knows not everything but something of his body. I do not know everything of my body. Suppose I am eating, I am eating something. How this eatable substance transforms into vitamin secretion and how it is being distributed all over the body and is supplying the energy? Or take, for example, I have got my hairs, but I do not know how many hairs I have got. Is not that a fact? Can you count your hairs, how many hairs you have got? So, so many things we do not know even of our body, although I am claiming that "This is my body."

But there is another living being. He is supreme living being, Kṛṣṇa. He says that "I know everything of everyone's body." Ksetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. This is the verse. Ksetra-jña means the knower of the body. You are individual knower of your body; I am knower individually of my body. So everyone is knower of his own body. But there is another person, who says that "I know everything of everyone's body." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He is known as Paramātmā. The individual knower is known as ātmā, or soul, spirit soul. (aside:) Yes. You can sit down on the bench. Yes. The individual soul is called ātmā. But there is another soul, Supersoul. He is called Paramātmā. Paramātmā is God. Paramātmā is God, but ātmā and Paramātmā, both of them are cognizant. Both of them know things. Just like I know something about my body or I know something about this world. Similarly, there is another ātmā, supreme ātmā, who knows everything of this universe. He is sometimes called God or the Paramātmā or Kṛṣṇa, whatever He…, according to different language. So that God is also knower; you are also knower. So far knowing capacity is concerned, you are one with God. Because Kṛṣṇa or God is cognizant, you are also cognizant. But you are cognizant with very limited sphere, and He is cognizant unlimitedly everywhere. That is the difference. So try to understand Paramātmā and jīvātmā. Jivātmā is a small, and Paramātmā, or God, is great. That you know, every one of you. You say, "God is great," but how He is great, that we do not know. That we have to know. That is called God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone says, "God is great. God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful," but we do not know how God is great, how God is all-powerful, how God is omnipotent. That we should know. And that is the prerogative, a special power for the human being. The animals, they cannot know what is God, how God is great, how God is all-powerful. But a human being, if he tries, if he consults books of knowledge just like Bible or Bhagavad-gītā or similar other scriptures, he can know what is God, how great He is, how omnipotent He is, and what is our relationship with God.

We should know also our relationship with God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Our relationship with God is that we are all part and parcel of God. Just like your father has got many children-you are part of the father's body-similarly, God, the supreme father, He has also many children, and you are one of them; therefore you are part and parcel of God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ

jīva-loke sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

[Bg. 15.7]

Kṛṣṇa says that "All these living entities, they are all My parts and parcels, but being influenced by mental concoction, he is very much struggling hard within this material world." Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. This struggle for existence of the human being is due to his lack of knowledge of God. He does not know how God is great. There is no educational institution all over the world to discuss this subject matter, how God is great, how He is omnipotent, how I am servant of God. These things are not discussed. But when we forget our relationship with God we become subjected to the threefold miseries of material existence. Take for example… Just like an Australian citizen. He is under the laws of the state of Australia. But if he says, "I don't care for the government," he becomes lawless, and sometimes he becomes criminal, and he is put into the prison life. In the prison also, he has to abide by the laws of the government, and outside the prison also, one has to abide by the laws of the government. But outside the prison the citizens abide by the laws of the government voluntarily, and inside the prison house, the criminals, they defy the laws of government, and therefore they are put into the prisonhouse. So when we defy the laws of God, we are put into threefold miseries of life. That is called material existence. And when we abide by the laws of God, then we are happy. We should know this fact. And religion means to abide by the laws of God. In the Sanskrit language it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma, or religion, means the codes of God. Code. Just like laws cannot be manufactured by some individual man, laws are enacted by the government, similarly, religious principles, they are made by God. Godless man does not care for religion, but those who are sober, devotee, godly, they abide by the laws of God, and they are happy. Just like in your Bible there are commandments. So one has to abide by the commandment; then he will be happy. And if one disobeys the commandments of God, he will be unhappy.

So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a sectarian movement. We are trying to bring back people to God consciousness. Because unless one comes to God consciousness, he cannot be happy. That's a fact. He becomes careless, and without abiding by the laws of God, he becomes criminal, subjected to so many troubles inflicted by the laws of nature. So these things should be taught from the beginning. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaumāram ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. In every schools and colleges these codes of God should be taught to the children. Then in future they will be godly or God conscious and their life will be peaceful. And because this is not taught in the schools and colleges… I have got experience by traveling in the Western countries. Especially in America, they have got so many nice arrangements of big, big universities. Unfortunately, nowadays they are producing hippies. So this is not very encouraging. In every schools and colleges the God consciousness should be taught. Never mind whether through Bible or Koran or through Bhagavad-gītā. Everywhere there is knowledge of God consciousness. That teaching should be introduced in every schools and colleges so that children, from the very beginning, may understand what is God, how great he is, how we are related with God, and how we have to live. So our, this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is teaching that thing. Don't think that it is a sectarian religion. We are making people God conscious. It doesn't matter whichever religion you may belong. We want to see whether you are actually God conscious. Our Bhāgavata says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6], that "That religious system is first class wherein God consciousness or love of God is taught." That is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion. If by following the principles of religion one becomes advanced in God consciousness, that is first-class religion. That is our motto, and we are preaching all over the world.

So I do not see some of your teachers here. I request them to make the students from the very beginning God consciousness. Then their future life is very peaceful, prosperous and hopeful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause) (kīrtana) (end)

710513LE.SYD

Lecture at Wayside Chapel

Sydney, May 13, 1971

(kīrtana)

Bali-mardana: He wants to make an announcement.

Australian man: Just at this point we'd like to welcome tonight Swami Bhaktivedanta here, as well as all of you who are participating in this Family of Man meeting. The Wayside Chapel, of course, is the home of world religion. As a matter of fact, in three weeks time the Sikh community will conduct their major festival here in this very theater, and everybody is invited to share with the Sikh community on that particular Sunday. So that's part of our program. And therefore it's perfectly natural that this evening we should have in our presence such a renowned world leader of a religious movement, which we have watched with great interest from the Wayside Chapel, and we are very honored that the Swami should be in our presence this evening. And in a few moments time we're going to invite him to speak just as long as he wishes to speak to the whole community which is present. And after that, as usual, in connection with our Family of Man meetings here on Wednesday night, there will be ample opportunity for questions and discussion. I think nothing more needs to be said except to say that we want you to feel very much at home. Everybody here is most anxious to hear what you have to say. The Wayside Chapel originally began… [break]

Prabhupāda: So ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to place before you our views on saṅkīrtana movement all over the world. This saṅkīrtana movement, don't take it as a religious movement. As you generally understand in the Western countries, the word religion is used as "a kind of faith." Faith you can change. Today you are Christian; tomorrow you can become Hindu. But religion cannot be changed. What we mean by the exact word, Sanskrit word, corresponding to religion is dharma, d-h-a-r-m-a. That dharma is different thing from the word religion. Religion is generally understood as a kind of faith, but dharma is not like that. Dharma you cannot change. Just like water. Water is liquid. You cannot make it solid. If water becomes solid, then it is not in the natural state. If you can… You can say the water becomes sometimes solid by less temperature under certain condition. But the tendency of water is to become liquid again. Water cannot stand solid for good. This is called dharma, religion. Or, say, take it for example, a stone. Stone is solid. Stone cannot be liquid. If by chemical process you make stone liquid sometimes, as you transform stone to glass, that liquidness of stone is temporary. Similarly, the solidity of water is also temporary. So similarly, our religion, the dharma… Try to understand the word dharma. Dharma is a permanent occupation of a certain thing. Just like sugar. Sugar is sweet. You cannot make sugar as salty. Or pepper is pungent, hot. You cannot make it sweet. So try to understand the word dharma, that it cannot be changed. Similarly, we living entities, we have got a dharma, or religion. That we cannot change. What is that? A living entity is servant. We are all living entities, but we are all servants at the same time. Is anyone here who can say that "I am not servant of anyone"? No. That is not possible. Everyone is servant. Everyone is servant. That is the definition given by Lord Caitanya. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa: [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109] "A living entity is eternally servant of God." That cannot be changed. Just like you are citizens of this Australian state, so you must have to abide by the laws of the state. You cannot change it. If you say that "I don't want these laws," you will be forced to abide by the laws. You cannot change it, or you cannot make law at your home. Law is enacted by the government. Similarly, we should understand religion means you cannot change, and it is enacted by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. That is the definition given in the Vedic literature.

So this saṅkīrtana movement is meant for purifying our heart. By long association with this material nature, we are thinking that "There is no God," "I have nothing to do with God. I am independent of God." We are thinking like that. But actually this is not a fact. The gross material nature is very strong. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā-those who have read Bhagavad-gītā-daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. God has got multi-energies, and they are divided grossly into three: the external energy, the internal energy and the marginal energy. The external energy is this material nature, and the internal energy, there is another, spiritual nature. As you see this universe, as far as you can see or imagine, it is covered. This is material energy. Beyond this covering there is another nature. That is spiritual nature. We get this information from the Vedic literatures. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. And we living entities, we are the marginal energies. That means if we like, we can live in this material nature; if we like, we can transfer ourselves to the spiritual nature. The spiritual nature is… It is not in…, what is called, incompatible. Compatible. You can adjust yourself in the spiritual nature, but you cannot adjust yourself in the material nature. Therefore material nature, however you can make your plans for becoming happy, it will be frustrated. Because you do not, you cannot adjust yourself with this material nature. Just like this body. This body is a product of this material nature. Now, however you can take care of this body, however you may go on making this body very strong and stout, still, you cannot maintain it. It will be finished today or tomorrow, or a hundred years after. You cannot protect it. This is material nature. But I have got the tendency to keep my body fit, strong, and eternal. That is my tendency. People are taking so much exercise just to become very strong and stout. But nature will not allow you. However stout and strong you may be, you have to die. You have to give up this body. This body is temporary, but our tendency is to live forever. The scientists are trying how to keep this body fit. One Russian scientist said that "By material science we shall be able to keep this body forever." They may say like that, but in the history we do not find any evidence that anyone has ever been able to keep this body forever, immortal. That is not possible.

But this tendency can be satisfied if you transfer yourself to the spiritual world, because you are marginal. I have already said that we are in a marginal position. If we like, we can keep on this material side of the nature, and if we like, we can transfer ourself to the spiritual side of nature. And what we are? We are also spiritual sparks. Therefore we cannot adjust with this material nature. Our real hankering is how to go to the spiritual nature. But due to our long association with this material nature, we are thinking wrongly that "I am a product of this material nature. I will have to adjust with the elements here, and… But because there is no other way, so as long is possible, let me live comfortably and satisfactorily." This is our nature. But we get information from Bhagavad-gītā, by simply doing one thing you can make your life permanent, eternal, and never to die again, or never to take birth again. What is that? That Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that,

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

[Bg. 4.9]

Kṛṣṇa says, "Simply by understanding about My appearance and My activities, janma karma…" Janma means appearance, and karma means activities. Janma karma me divyam: "They are transcendental." Yo jānāti tattvataḥ: "If anyone understands in truth," tyaktvā deham, "then such person, after giving up this body," punar janma naiti, "do not come to take birth again in this material world, but he comes to Me." Mām eti. And if you come back to Kṛṣṇa, wherefrom you generated, then you become eternally living, not to come back again in this material world full of miseries and frustration.

So these informations are there, and our propaganda is to train people how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, how to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth so that next life, after giving up this body, you get your original, spiritual body, and you live forever with complete knowledge and blissful life. And to understand Kṛṣṇa, in this age it is very simple: this chanting process. This chanting process-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare-it is simple. Even a child can chant. We have got experience. When we hold meetings, unless one is very obstinate, he joins and chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dances also with ecstasy. He doesn't require to understand what is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, but because it is spiritual vibration, it appeals to the spirit soul, and immediately he become ecstatic. That is the process. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, your heart, the mirror of your heart, becomes cleansed so that you can see. Just like mirror, when it is dusty, you cannot see your face nicely, similarly, when our heart is contaminated with the material infection, we cannot understand our real position. But if we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then it will be possible to understand, to see our constitutional position. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. If you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, there is no expenditure and there is no less. Just like we requested you while our students were chanting to join with. What was the loss? But if you do not do, then how we can help you? We are not asking you to pay something for chant this mantra. It is free. It is open. You have to simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa and see the result. Why don't you do that? We are not asking any payment. You are not losing anything. Why don't you make this experiment? But it is our obstinacy. Then what can be done? But if you chant, you will see the result very quickly. Within a week you will see. That is our request. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If you chant, then the dirty things which have accumulated in your heart since a long association with this material world, that will be gradually cleansed, and you will be able to see what you are.

So without any expenditure, without any loss, if you can see yourself, what you are, why don't you take it? What is the objection? Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And as soon as you can see, you can have a look upon yourself, immediately the blazing fire of material existence will be extinguished. This material world is supposed to be blazing fire. Blazing fire. It is called blazing fire in the forest. Just like in the forest nobody goes to set fire, but it takes automatically, similarly, in this material world, however you may try to live very peacefully, it will not allow you. There will be some fire. Just like in Pakistan. All of a sudden they separated from India as Muhammadan on the basis of religion. Now they are Muhammadans, of the same religion, but they are fighting. First of all they wanted to save themselves from fighting from the Hindus. Now they are Muhammadan. They are of the same cult, same religion. Still, they are fighting. So you cannot stop this fighting. It will automatically come out. Just like the forest blazing fire. Nobody goes to set fire there, but it takes place. So this world, nature of this world, is like that. However you may be careful, however you may be peaceful, some element there will be who will put you into trouble, into frustration. That is the nature of this material world. Try to understand. But if you understand your constitutional position, what you are, then immediately this blazing fire will be extinguished and real knowledge come out. If you understand your position, then what is your real occupation, real activities, you will understand. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Just like the moon rises from a line. On the pratipara (?) day, on the first moon side, you will see just like a line, but gradually it develops, develops, develops, and it becomes a full moon, very beautiful. Similarly, if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then your first vision of your self, your constitutional position, will be visible just like a line of the moon. But if you go on continuing, you will find one day it is full moon and brilliant, very soothing, and nectarine. You'll taste your life as very sublime, blissful, and hopeful.

So our method is very simple, and it is very sublime. And it is not that we are dreaming. Practically it is happening in every part of the world. We have got so many branches all over the world, and each and every branch you will find devotees like this. At least twenty-four devotees up to one hundred devotees we have got. In America, my students, these boys and girls, they have been known as "Hare Kṛṣṇa People," "bright-faced people." You can compare their face with others, how they are feeling happy and blissful. That's a fact. It is not a story. So method is simple: simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So why don't you accept this formula? You have nothing to lose, and there is no loss, but the gain is very great. So our request is that here is a nice place. You assemble here. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and see the result. That is our request. And if you want to know more, if you don't believe that Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is powerful, if you want to know about this movement through science, philosophy, logic, we have got ample books. We have got already published at least twelve books, four hundred pages. You try to understand. If you want to understand this movement through science and philosophy, we are ready. But if you take it as a simple method, without any expenditure, without any loss, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Two sides. Any side you can accept. You will be benefited. That is our request. I don't wish to take much of your time, but our method is very simple, and your life will be sublime. There is no loss. The gain is very great. So if you like, you can take it.

Thank you very much. (end)

710626LE.PAR

Lecture

Paris, June 26, 1971

Prabhupāda:

…sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your (indistinct) in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This movement is especially meant for human society who are serious about fulfillment of the mission of this life. There is a distinction between human life and animal life. Animal life means one who does not know who is the proprietor of the body. Those who are under the concept of this material body as self, they are as good as animal. But the…, in the human form of life one can distinguish that one is not this material body but he is a separate identity, spiritual in value. We can understand this fact if we give little attention to it, that we are changing our different body since the beginning of our life. We learn from Vedic literature that after sexual intercourse of the male and female, if it is fruitful, then the living entity is injected in the emulsion of the two secretion and in the first night it takes the shapes of a pea. And because the living entity is there, it grows gradually, and then nine holes evolve, which are later on developed into two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and one rectum, one genital, like that.

So when the body is complete, then the consciousness coming. So long the body is not complete, the consciousness is almost dead. It is called suṣupti, or sound sleeping. Then gradually, when the consciousness comes, the child within the womb feels uncomfortable and wants to come out. Therefore at the stage of seventh month of pregnancy sometimes the child moves. That is the process of growing. And after coming out of the womb the body grows. But if the child comes out dead, the body does not grow. Therefore it is to be understood that due to the presence of the spirit soul the body grows, means changes from one form to another. It is concluded by learned scholars that this change of body is taking place every moment, but the soul is there from the beginning of the life. And when this body is no longer persistable, the soul changes to another body. That is called transmigration of the soul. That is a fact. But the modern civilization does not deal with this subject matter. They are under wrong impression that the body is self. I have talked with many scholars, and they are also under the same impression that with the end of the body, everything is finished. But actual fact is different. We can remember our childhood body. We can remember our boyhood body. Although those bodies are not present, I, the spirit soul, the occupier of the body or the proprietor of the body, I am present.

So this transmigration of soul is the most important factor to be understood by the human society. Unfortunately there is no university, there is no department of knowledge, to understand this important factor. That is very risky. So this soul is transmigrating from one body to another, and there are 8,400,000 species of life, and our, after leaving this body we may accept any one of them. We do not know. That will depend on our action at the present moment. Practically we are preparing our future body, and according to our work and mentality, we get a different body. Therefore we shall be very much cautious. Any intelligent man can understand that the future life is prepared at present. Just like the boy goes to the school, goes to the college, he prepares his future life, similarly, this human form of life is a preparation ground for our future life. So according to Bhagavad-gītā, we can transfer to other planets also. This is explained in our book Easy Journey to Other Planets. The present endeavor is to transfer one to the moon planet. But as we get information from the Vedic literature, we cannot transfer ourself by mechanical arrangement to the moon planet. That is not possible. This is futile attempt. Every planet has got different atmosphere. So in order to enter into a particular planet we have to prepare ourself. This is also understandable very easily. Just like if we go to a foreign country we have to prepare for visa and passport. If in this planet also we are so much restricted, how foolishly we are attempting to go to other planet without being prepared for entering that planet.

Anyway, a sane man, an intelligent man, does not like to enter in any one of the material planets, because wherever we go in the material planet the four condition, or miserable condition of miserable existence, are there. The four miserable conditions of materialistic way of life is birth, death, old age, and disease. So from the Bhagavad-gītā we understand that even if we enter into the Brahmaloka, the highest planetary system of this universe, the four principles of miserable condition-birth, death, old age and disease-are there. We learn from Bhagavad-gītā that one daytime duration is millions of years of our calculation. That's a fact. So, but even though the highest planetary system, Brahmaloka, which the scientists say it will take forty thousands of years to go there with the sputnik speed, but who is going there, traveling in the space forty thousands of years? But from the Vedic literature we can understand that any one of the planets we can enter, provided we prepare for that purpose. The exact words in the Bhagavad-gītā is that,

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

If anyone prepares himself to enter into the higher planetary system, which is said to be inhabited by demigods, we can go there. Similarly, in the Pitṛloka, Pitṛ planet, we can go, or if we like, we can remain on this planet. And at last, if we desire, we can enter into the planet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So it is all preparation only. But considering the point that any planetary system within this material universe, they are temporary… Maybe the duration is very, very long time, but they are to be annihilated. As our body… There are different types of body. A human body exists for hundred years, but an insect's body exists for twelve hours. So these different body exist relatively a long duration or short duration, but they are to be annihilated. But if anyone enters into the planet which is called Vaikuṇṭhaloka, the spiritual planet, then there is eternal life, blissful life and full of knowledge.

So a human being, if he tries, he can attain that perfection. That is stated. It is very simple. In the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Anyone who knows in truth about the Supreme Personality of Godhead… People say, "God is great." That is a hackneyed word. But if we want to know how God is great, that can be also known from authorized scriptures. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God Himself describes about Himself. So we can know. So He says that "Simply by understanding what I am…" Kṛṣṇa says or God says, janma karma me divyam: "My appearance, or taking birth just like a human being, is transcendental." It is not exactly like the human body, but God is so kind that He comes before us as an ordinary human being. Unfortunately one who does not know about Him, he thinks that Kṛṣṇa, or God, is like one of us. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. "Those who are mūḍhas, rascals, they think Me as if one of the human being." Actually He is not. So we have got the chance to know about Him. Provided we read the right literatures under right direction, we can know. That possibility is there. And if we simply can know what is the nature of God, or Kṛṣṇa, simply by understanding this fact one becomes liberated. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. A person who has understood the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead… It cannot be understood completely. That is not possible with our human intelligence, but with the help of Bhagavad-gītā, the statement given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the spiritual master, we can know Him to the best of our capacity. And if we can know Him, then the result is that immediately after leaving this body we enter into the kingdom of God. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: [Bg. 4.9] "After giving up this body he does not come again to this material world, but he enters into the spiritual world and comes to Me." That is the statement.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to propagate this higher scientific idea to the people in general, and the process is very simple. Simply by chanting the holy name of God-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare-one cleanses his dirty things in the heart and he can understand that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and it is his duty to serve Him. And it is also very pleasant. The process is so nice that we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dance rhythmically and eat nice prasādam, and we enjoy this life and prepare for the next life to enter into the kingdom of God. So these are not stories. These are all facts, although to the layman it appears like stories. But if one is serious, then Kṛṣṇa, or God, from within, He also helps, and the spiritual master also helps. The spiritual master is said "the external manifestation of God." God is situated in everyone's heart as Paramātmā, as Supersoul. But those who are very serious about understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead, immediately He helps him by, I mean to say, showing a bona fide spiritual master so that a candidate will be helped from inside and outside how to approach God. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose. The spiritual master, or the representative, living representative of Kṛṣṇa, he helps from outside, and Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā helps from inside. In both ways the living entity can take advantage and make his life successful. We have got many books in this connection, about twelve books of four hundred pages. So this is based on the authority of Vedas, and that is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā and many other books. So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Kṛṣṇa, Easy Journey to Other Planets, Nectar of Devotion. So we request everyone to understand this movement by reading authoritative literatures in this connection. We are publishing our magazine, Back to Godhead, every month in so many languages. So our program is to serve the human society, to save them from the pitfall of entering again into the cycle of birth and death. That is our great mission.

So I was very much engladdened to learn that I had to speak this night, but because I was pre-engaged for going to San Francisco, because tomorrow there will be a great Ratha-yātrā festival… About fifty thousand people will participate in the festival, and they have advertised my presence, so I am going this afternoon to San Francisco. So you will excuse me because I am not personally present. But I hope to come back again by the second week of July. If sufficient arrangement is made I shall be very glad to meet the enlightened people of this city and try to make them convinced about the importance of this great movement. And that will be beneficial for our mission as well as your welfare.

Thank you. (end)

710626SP.PAR

Speech at Olympia Theater

Paris, June 26, 1971,

(with translator)

Prabhupāda: I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This movement is very important. It is a movement to save the human society from a suicidal policy. The suicidal policy is… Just this evening I expressed my desires to the press conference that the human society is being misled by leaders who are blind themselves. Take for example just like there a few blind men, and one, another blind man, is proposing to help them, crossing over the street. So this blind following is there in this sense, that we do not know what is the aim and objective of human society. The aim and objective of human life is self-realization and reestablishing our lost relation with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the missing point. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to enlighten the human society on this important point.

According to Vedic civilization, the progressive march towards perfection of life is to realize one's relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. There is a book, perhaps you read or you know, Bhagavad-gītā. That Bhagavad-gītā is accepted by all ācāryas, or authorities in transcendental science, as the essence of all Vedic knowledge. In this Bhagavad-gītā we understand that the living entities, not only human beings, but other than human beings… There are many types of living entities. All of them are parts and parcels of God. The part and parcel of God means… You can understand from your own personal experience. Just like your body but there are many parts and parcels of the body, just like the legs, the hands, the fingers, the hair, so many things. The idea is that the parts and parcels are meant for serving the whole body. Similarly, we living entities, being part and parcel of God, it is our duty to serve Him. Actually our position is that we are rendering service to somebody else. Every one of us who are sitting in this meeting must admit that he is giving service to somebody else. Somebody is rendering service to his family, somebody is rendering service to his country or to his society, or if one has nobody to serve, sometimes he keeps a pet like cats and dog and renders service unto it. All these factors prove that we want and we are constitutionally so made that we have to render service to somebody else. But in spite of our rendering service to the best capacity, we are not satisfied nor the persons to whom we are rendering service, they are satisfied. Therefore in spite of our rendering service to one another, every one of us are frustrated. The reason is that the service which we are rendering, that is not properly placed. The method is… Just like a tree. If you want to render service to a tree, you must water to the root. If you pour water on the leaves, branches and twigs, that is not properly served. If you pour water on the root, that is the way of serving the tree. Similarly, in your body, if you supply food to the stomach, the energy will be distributed. You need not give food separately to the different parts of your body. From this example we can understand that the supreme whole, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if He is served, then all other parts and parcels and… Just like the limbs of the body are served automatically by supplying food to the stomach, similarly, by serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead everyone is served. Therefore all welfare activities, all service to the society, family, nature… [break]

So it is the duty of every human being to understand his constitutional position, his relation with God, and understanding the relation, to act accordingly, and then our life becomes successful. This human form of life is meant for that purpose. We are missing the point. So long we are living, sometimes we challenge that "There is no God," "I am God," or somebody says, "I don't care for God." But actually this challenge will not save us. God is there. We can see God in every moment. But if we deny to see God, then God will be present before us as the cruel death. There are different features of the Supreme Personality of Godhead because He is the original root cause of all cosmic manifestation. In the Bhagavad-gītā there is nice description how you can gradually understand and see God personally, face to face. Just like the Personality of Godhead says therein that "I am the taste in water. I am the sunlight. I am the moonlight. I am the sound vibration in the sky and I am the supreme character of a great personality." So if we (are) actually serious to understand the science of God, if we try to follow the injunction given in the Bhagavad-gītā… Just like God is the taste of the water. Everyone is tasting water daily, not only once but several times. So if we remember this instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that the taste of the water is God, then the God realization begins, becomes, begins. Similarly, it is said there that God is the light of the moon, God is the light of the sun. Every one of us has seen the sunlight and the moonshine, so how we can say that we have not seen God? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the sound vibration in the sky." So who has not heard the sound vibration of the cloud in the sky? So as soon as we hear the sound vibration in the sky, we can see God or we can hear God. At last, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. If one does not see God, then, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the death, cruel death, who takes away everything from everyone." The conclusion is that everyone sees God at every moment, but the atheist class, they do not accept that he is seeing God. He denies or telling lies that he is not seeing God. But a devotee of God, he sees God at every moment within his heart. So the difference of seeing God by a devotee and difference of, and denying, denial by the nondevotee, is this, that the atheist class or the atheist can see God at his last stage as death, whereas the devotee sees God by his devotional service every moment and every step of his life.

So this human form of life is especially… It is given by nature to realize God. If we don't utilize this human form of life to understand ourselves and God and our relationship, then we are committing a suicidal policy. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just an attempt to educate the foolish human civilization without any sense of God. Our life… As we are spirit soul, we are evolving through many species of life, and if we don't take advantage of this human form of life, then we are missing the chance. Without God consciousness or without Kṛṣṇa consciousness there cannot be any peace. Everyone is hankering after peace, but he does not know how to achieve peace. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the greatest welfare activities in the world, and we request everyone to take advantage of this great scientific movement. Our presentation is authoritative because we are guided by the principles of the old knowledge, the ancient knowledge of India, the Vedas. And the process of understanding this science of Kṛṣṇa is also made very easy in this age. The process, as you have already known, the process is chanting the holy name of God: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Now this is recommended in the Vedas, that "In this age people are so much fallen that they cannot realize God by the prescribed method; therefore the best chance for them is to chant this holy name of God." That is recommended in the Vedas. You can chant… "If you know any other name of God, you can chant also, because there is no difference between the different names of God. And each name, holy name, is invested with all powers of God." Lord Caitanya says that each and every name, holy name of God, is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Therefore all the powers, all the energies that God has, it is also there in His holy name. In the absolute platform there is no such difference, as in this relative world there is difference between the name and the person whose name we are chanting. As such, there is no difference between the holy name of God and God. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says there is no hard and fast rules and regulations for this chanting.

So you can chant the holy name of God anywhere, everywhere, and wherever it is possible. So suppose you are walking on the street or passing on the buses, but if you chant the holy name of God, especially Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will get much benefit without any loss of your money or without any hampering of your business. We therefore request and recommend that so long we live, we may chant the holy name of God: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. We don't charge anything for giving you this name. It is open to everyone. You can take it and make an experiment. By chanting, you will feel how much you are advancing in spiritual knowledge. This is the shortcut way of understanding God realization. But if you don't believe in the simple method, if you want to understand this philosophy through science and philosophy, we have got books, about one dozen books, four hundred pages each, to explain this science of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. We have got our magazine, Back to Godhead, and our books, Kṛṣṇa book, Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So many books we have got. So those who are very much serious… And everyone should be serious because if we miss this opportunity, then after death we do not know what is going to happen. I may have a human form of body or we may have a body of the animals or of a tree. That we do not know. But if we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at least next life again human form of body is guaranteed. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that those who have begun Kṛṣṇa consciousness understanding, if they can fulfill the whole program within this life, they get salvation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. But even if one fails to achieve success in one life, his next life as a human being in rich family or in a pious family is guaranteed. So our humble request to you all is that henceforward you please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra whenever it is possible. You have got enough time and there is no rules and regulation, there is no fee, and see how much you are benefited.

Thank you. Now if there is any question you can ask. (end)

710628LE.SF

Lecture

San Francisco, June 28, 1971

Prabhupāda: So I am very glad that you are following the footprints of the Gosvāmīs, six Gosvāmīs. Vande Rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī, vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau, and two Raghunātha Gosvāmī-one Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī and one Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau, four. Śrī-jīva-gopālakau: and Sri Jīva Gosvāmī and Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī. They were direct disciple of Lord Caitanya. There are thousands of disciples of Lord Caitanya, but they are prominent, who gave very prominent service to the Lord by executing the mission of Lord Caitanya. By the order of Lord Caitanya they went to Vṛndāvana, and the present city of Vṛndāvana is the contribution of the Gosvāmīs. First of all Sanātana Gosvāmī went there, then Rūpa Gosvāmī. In this way the city was excavated. It was formerly, five hundred years ago, there was no trace where and how Kṛṣṇa līlā was performed in that tract of land. But when Caitanya Mahāprabhu went there, He first of all discovered Rādhā Kuṇḍa, the lake in which Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī used to take bath and Kṛṣṇa used to come. There is Śyāma Kuṇḍa also. The Śyāma Kuṇḍa, Rādhā Kuṇḍa, two lakes are still existing. Hundreds, thousands of people, devotees, go to see that lake every day.

So the six Gosvāmīs were, some of them were very prominent government officers. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī, they were two important ministers in the (indistinct) Muhammadan government, Nawab Hussein Shah, his government. They resigned their ministerial post and joined Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu for propagating His mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So rūpa-sanātanau, they are very responsible government officers, and raghu-yugau, two Raghunātha: one Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa and one Raghunātha dasa. Raghunātha dasa was the only son of his father and uncle, very big landholder, Bengal. Their father's income was twelve hundred thousands of rupees in those days. Now you can increase at least fifty times and then calculate what was the income of Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. But he left everything to join Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī also came from a very learned brāhmaṇa family. Similarly, Jīva Gosvāmī was the greatest scholar till now. Nobody can compete with Jīva Gosvāmī's scholarship in Sanskrit and philosophy. That is the verdict of all learned scholars. The world's best philosopher and Sanskrit scholar was Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. He happened to be the nephew of Rūpa Gosvāmī. When Jīva Gosvāmī's father and uncles left home, he was only ten years old boy. He thought, "If my father and uncles have left, why shall I not leave home?'' So at the age of ten years he left home and went to Benares, the seat of Sanskrit scholars. He learned there Sanskrit very nicely, became a very great scholar, and then joined their uncles in Vṛndāvana. Of course, at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu had passed. So Jīva Gosvāmī, he is also very learned scholar. His books are still adored by all spiritual sections. Sandarbas, six sandarbas, philosophical theses. And then vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, he was also learned scholar. So all rich men, rich politicians, scholars, great brāhmaṇas, they joined Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is so nice movement. It attracted thousands of people, just (as) it is attracting you, American boys and girls.

So in those days, a scholarly section, learned section, rich section were attracted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. And what was their business? This business, as you are doing: kṛṣṇa kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. Their engagement was kṛṣṇa ut kīrtanam. Kṛṣṇa kīrtanam, singing about Kṛṣṇa, just like you are doing-Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇot-kīrtana, very loudly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna, and sometimes prayers, songs. Nartana. Naratana means dancing. These were their engagement: kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī. And as soon as they chanted, immediately they were immersed in the ocean of bliss, prema, ecstasy of love of God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. They were very much affectionate, or dear, to all classes of people. There are two classes of men: dhīra, adhīra. Dhīra means sober, and adhīra means just the opposite, debauchers. So they were dear to both classes of men. This is Kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, is so nice. It is dear to all classes of men. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau. Because they are not envious. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for everyone. So… And what was their other qualification? Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau… Dhīrādhīra-jana-priya-priyakarau nirmatsarau pūjitau, śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau… They're very dear servitors of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu for delivering the fallen souls of this world. And we have to offer our respectful obeisances to the six Gosvāmīs, vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau srī-jīva-gopālakau.

Then their next qualification, next engagement was nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau. Śāstra, all kinds of Vedic literature. Śāstra means which governs. The Vedic literature governs. There is a verbal root which is called śāst. Śāst means to rule. The ruling, there are three kinds of ruling. One ruling is śāstra, law codes. Just like every civilized country is ruled by the laws of the state, and the statute book which contains all the rules, that is called law books. That is also śāstra. That is śāstra. And then another śāsdhātu is śastra. Śastra means weapons, that like guns, swords. Śāstra and śastra. So there are two sections of people: those who are civilized, they are ruled by the śāstra, by the law codes, and those who are law-breakers, they are ruled by the śastra, weapons. Both things are required, śāstra and śastra. And sasam, sasam means government. The government has two department-criminal and civil. Civil department is controlled by the śāstra, law codes, and the criminal department is governed by the śastra, weapons. So this is the rule from time immemorial. Both things are required. Sometimes violence required, police force required for the unruly persons. They'll not care for the śāstra, don't care for śāstra, but you care for the śastra. So two things are there.

Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "I am this and that.'' He says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. Those who are sober, those who want to understand Kṛṣṇa, they can understand Kṛṣṇa in very step of life. Just like raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, "I am the taste of the water.'' Water you have to drink. Just like I drank just a minute before and quenched my thirst. But that quenching active principle is Kṛṣṇa. So we can realize Kṛṣṇa every time we'll drink water. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śās…, prabhāsmi śaśi sūryayoḥ. Kṛṣṇa is the sunshine, Kṛṣṇa is the moonshine. Kṛṣṇa is the fragrance of the flower. As soon as you take a flower and smell it, the fragrance is Kṛṣṇa. In this way, every step we can understand Kṛṣṇa. Even in sex life we can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi, sex life which is not against the religious codes. What is that? Sex life for begetting children is allowed. That is not against the religious code, and that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi. Kāma, lust. Sex life is the business of lust. Kṛṣṇa says "Yes, lust is also good provided it is not against the religious codes.'' So nothing is bad; everything is good, if it is for developing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nothing is bad, because everything is creation of Kṛṣṇa. How it can be bad? It cannot be bad; it is good, provided we follow the rules and regulations. Everything is good. Therefore we are consult various śāstras. Nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau, vicāra. Vicāra means to study them with careful attention. Vicāra. Nana-śās… So these Gosvāmīs were studying many kinds of Vedic literatures. There are hundreds and thousands of Vedic literature-primarily four Vedas, Sama, Yajur, Atharva, Ṛg, Atharva. Then from the Vedas, there are supplementary Vedas, which are called Purāṇas, eighteen Purāṇas. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is one of the Purāṇas, Mahā-Purāṇa. Then there is, there are Mahābhārata, "The Great History of India.'' Bhārata means India, and Mahā means greater, greater India. The greater India was the whole planet. The whole planet was Bhārata-varṣa. Now it is crippled. It has become a small tract of land. But originally everywhere, this portion of the world, America, it was also Bhārata-varṣa. Sapta-dvīpa, seven islands. Seven islands. Actually the whole planet is full of water-Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean. Full of water. And these are islands only-Asia, Europe, America. There are seven islands, sapta-dvīpa. The planet is sapta-dvīpa, seven full, comprising of seven islands. That is Bhārata-varṣa.

So nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau. So we have to study the Vedic literature very carefully, following the footsteps of Gosvāmīs. Not only chanting. This is also required, kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna. But this is meant, if you simply go on chanting without reading books, that is also good. Especially in this age, because nobody has got power to study books. Education is very less, so still, one who is able, they should consider all this. We have given in English translation. So many important books, you study, and chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra like this, and that is the following the footsteps of Gosvāmīs. Ācāryopāsanā. We have to worship the ācāryas. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, for making advancement in spiritual life, ācāryopāsanā. So this is ācāryopāsanā, by reading their books, nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau. Why studying so many books? For the sake of establishing real religious life. Sad-dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas, religious, religions: pravṛtti-mārga, nivṛtti-mārga. Pravṛtti-mārga means materialism, and nivṛtti-mārga means spiritualism. Pravṛtti means because we had intention to enjoy this material world, therefore we have given this material body by the energy of Kṛṣṇa, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27], by the…, for associating with this material world. We are spirit soul. We have been given this chance to associate with the material world, this material, which is called… So there is still the rules and regulation. You associate, you enjoy this material world under this instruction, then you'll not be fallen. You'll not be implicated. That's śāstra. Śāstra gives you codes. Just like when I immigrated in this land, they gave me one paper, welcome, and some immigration rules. That is śāstra. Similarly, the Vedas means the rules and regulation which following they'll very happily live in this material world. Material world is not required by me or you. We are spirit soul. We have no business in the material world. Just like we are living entities of the land. We have no business with the water. But if anyone wants to cross over the sea, he must have a well-built ship to cross over. Similarly, we spirit souls we have no business in this material world, but because we wanted to enjoy it, leaving the association of Kṛṣṇa, we have been given this ship, this body, to ply over this material ocean. So if you know how to ply the ship over the ocean there is no, I mean to say, fear of being drowned. If you have got a good captain of the ship and the ship is well built, then you'll have no danger. So the captain, he is the spiritual master, and this body is a very good ship. This is, these are the examples given. We have to cross over this material ocean. So we must have a captain and good ship, and favorable air. If the air is favorable, suppose you're going to the western side, and if the wind is blowing toward western side, it will automatically push your boat or ship. It will be favorable. If you go against the wind, it is difficult. So you have got a very good ship-this human form of body-and the captain is the spiritual master, and the favorable wind blowing, the instruction of the śāstras. So taking this opportunity, if you cross over this material ocean, then there is no difficulty. So we should take opportunity of this body, of the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, and the spiritual master, then very easily we cross over.

Nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau lokanam hita-karinau. The Gosvāmīs were very much fond of doing welfare activities for the general people, just like this movement. This movement is the greatest welfare activities in this world. Lokanam hita-karinau. It is beneficial for all kinds of human being. Nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau. So if we execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, following the footsteps of the Gosvāmīs, then tri-bhuvane manyau, you will be honored in the three worlds, wherever you go. Just like I am Indian, but you are honoring me. Why? Have I bribed you with my Indian money, currency? I came with forty rupees only, had no money. Why? Because you are having some message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the state of being honored. Similarly, just like this time when I went to India, all my American students-forty students are still there-they're being honored very nicely everywhere. In every city-Calcutta, Bombay, Benares, Amritsar. Why? Many American tourists go there. They are not honored. But why these boys are honored? Only for this kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So not only… This is the process. Any country you go, if you are strictly adhering to the rules and regulation and chanting sixteen rounds, that is your spiritual strength, and following the prohibitive rules, then you will be honored everywhere. Any part of the world you go, you'll be honored. It is not very difficult to chant sixteen rounds and following the regulative principles, but if you follow strictly, rigidly, you'll get spiritual strength and you'll be honored all over the world. Just take this secret. They'll not ask you to know how far you are educated, or that you have passed your M.A. examination or Ph.D. No. They will be charmed by this kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana.

So the Gosvāmīs showed us the way. Then next, śrī-gaurāṅga-guṇānuvarṇana-vidhau. They were very expert in describing the transcendental qualities of Lord Sri Caitanya, Gaurasundara, śrī-gaurāṅga-guṇānuvarṇana-vidhau. So in this way they passed their life in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and if we'll follow the footsteps of such mahājana, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Our business is, we haven't got to make research work. Everything is there, given by the Gosvāmīs and ācārya. We have simply to follow. That's all. Who, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God, you haven't got to make research. Kṛṣṇa is personally saying about Himself, Bhagavad-gītā, "I am like this.'' Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8], mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. So these are thing there. You have simply to accept it, to know it and follow it. Then your life is successful. We are not so foolish that we are going to make research work. Why? When there are so many things present already, what is the use of research work? First of all assimilate what is already there. And what is research you can make? Your senses are faulty, imperfect. What research you can work? So that is not possible. That is humbug. You simply try to understand, without any malinterpretation, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and you understand what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God. And you follow the ācāryas, then your life is successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

710705LE.LA

Lecture Excerpt

Los Angeles, July 5, 1971

Prabhupāda: …He was traveling in South India. He saw one brāhmaṇa reading Bhagavad-gītā. And persons who knew him, that "That man was illiterate," it was not possible for him to read Bhagavad-gītā… But still, he was trying to read it, and crying also. So while others were criticizing, Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to him, "Brāhmaṇa, what you are reading?" So he could understand that "This person, He's not come here to criticize me. He's serious." So he talked seriously, "Sir, I am reading Bhagavad-gītā. Unfortunately, I am illiterate." Now see. He is illiterate and he is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired that "How is that, you're reading Bhagavad-gītā and you say you are illiterate?" He said, "Yes, actually I am illiterate, but my Guru Mahārāja asked me that 'You should read every day eighteen chapters.' So what can I do? (laughter) I have to carry out the order of my spiritual master. So I have simply taken this book. I am seeing it." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Oh, you are not seeing it, simply. You are crying also." "Yes, Sir, I am crying also." "Then if you are not reading, how you are crying?" "Sir, I am not reading, but I'm feeling." "What is that?" "As soon as I take this Bhagavad-gītā in my hand, immediately I feel Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna sitting on the same chariot, and Arjuna is ordering Kṛṣṇa that 'You drive my chariot between the two soldiers,' and Kṛṣṇa is driving. So I am simply feeling how Kṛṣṇa is nice, that He can work as a servant of His devotee. When I feel like that, I cry, how Kṛṣṇa is so kind." Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately embraced him, that "You are really studying Bhagavad-gītā." So unless we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa, there is no meaning of reading. And if we can develop our love for Kṛṣṇa just like this brāhmaṇa, even without reading any book, that is wanted. That is wanted. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ. Therefore Kṛṣṇa also confirms, mayy āsakta-manāḥ, "Simply by increasing attachment for Me." Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Mad-āśrayaḥ means "under the direction of Me or My representative." Mat.

So one who performs this yoga system, how to increase love for Kṛṣṇa, that's all, then you understand everything. The Vedas, they confirm it. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then everything will be understood. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything, God is everything. To understand Kṛṣṇa, simply this attachment… Mayy āsakta-manāḥ. Āsakti means attachment. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is… We are teaching people, our students especially, how to increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Why this temple? They are feeling that "We are sitting in Kṛṣṇa's presence. Kṛṣṇa is so nicely dressed. I am dressing." Otherwise, from atheistic point of view, you see that "Why these people are bothering like this? They have taken a brass idol and wasting time after it?" They can say like that. Because they have no love for Kṛṣṇa. But one who has love for Kṛṣṇa, he sees, "Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He's accepting my dressing. I am crowning. I am garlanding." That is a feeling.

So the whole process is to increase our feeling of love for Kṛṣṇa. That is required. Not anything else. Just (like the) gopīs. They were not Vedāntists. They were not scholars. They were village girls, and also low class. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, the third class. The fourth class is the śūdra. They were neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya. Vaiśya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Vaiśyas, they have to take three kinds of profession: agriculture, trade, and cow protection. As the kṣatriyas were meant for giving protection to the human being, the vaiśyas are understood to give protection to the cows. Go-rakṣya. Go means cow; rakṣya means protection. That is their business. So these Vṛndāvana people, they were… Nanda Mahārāja, he had 900,000's of cows, and he was a big man amongst the agriculturists. So they were ordinary men, agriculturists, taking care of the cows. They were not Vedāntists, not philosopher, not scientist. Ordinary. But what is their credit? The credit is nobody could love Kṛṣṇa excelling them. That was their credit. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā: "There is no comparison of the method of worship which was adopted by the damsels of Vraja." Unalloyed love for Kṛṣṇa. No bargaining: "By loving Kṛṣṇa, I shall become a big man, I shall become a great philosopher, or great scientist," or "I shall improve my material condition." These are anyābhilāṣitā. And bhakti begins when one is devoid of all these material considerations. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Śūnyam means when one makes zero all these material desires. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam: [Cc. Madhya 19.167] even uncovered by the resultant action of philosophical speculation and fruitive activities. Everyone is working to get some result. That is called fruitive activities. So a pure devotee has no such desires. He has no other desires. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Their only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. That can be done by everyone, if he wants. Take, for example, if you want to please me, it does not require high education or great amount of riches or knowledge or beauty. Nothing. It is your business how to love me, how to please me. That you will know.

So if we want to love Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will let us know. Kṛṣṇa is within you. Simply we have to decide that we shall love Kṛṣṇa only. That is wanted. Then everything is there. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada-pañcarātra]. The kim word is used: "What is the use of?" That is kim. So the śāstra says that if you have learned how to love Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of these books? There is no use. You can avoid anything, all this reading. But if you have actually developed your love for Kṛṣṇa… And after reading all these books, philosophy, science, if you cannot love Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of it? Both ways. Useless. If you do not love, do not develop your love for God or Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of your philosophizing and scientific knowledge? This is all useless. And if you actually have learned how to love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then there is (no) need of philosophy or science or books. So therefore the main point is how to develop. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends this. Premā pumartho mahān. Our greatest success of life is how to love God, Kṛṣṇa. That is greatest success. Now you can do it. But there is prescribed method, given by great ācāryas. Just like in this temple we are doing. We are timely giving. The atheist will say, "Oh, these are so foolish that they are taking so much labor for preparing food and offering and wasting time. Best thing would have been to go to some club and enjoy wine and playing cards." They'll waste time in that way, but when… We are not wasting, but they say we are wasting time. They will criticize. You see? They are prepared to waste time in a brothel, but if people are sitting nicely in a temple and talking of Kṛṣṇa, serving Kṛṣṇa, they will laugh. That is our position. So we have to become callous to all these criticisms. We have to go with our business, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.

Thank you. (end)

Lecture

Los Angeles, July 11, 1971

710711LE.LA

Prabhupāda: …the spiritual platform. The past, present and future calculation is according to this body. That there are different calculation, it is scientifically proved-relativity, law of relativity. This world's past, present and future is different from the past, present, future of ordinary man. The ant's past, present and future is different from human being. So, this past, present and future is in relationship with this body. Actually, as we are eternal spirit soul, we have no past, present or future. Just like this child, he is playing. After a few years this age will be a past tense. Every one of us, we had also similar body, and that is now past tense. But I am this proprietor of the body. I remember that in such and such year I was a child like this, in such and such year I was a boy like this, in such and such year I was a young man like this. Therefore, "I" is eternal. I am eternal. This past and present and future is due to the change of body. Is it not a fact? I am the same, feeling; I am feelng same. The old man, an old man, he also remembers his enjoyments during his youthful time, and sometimes he wants to go back to those youthful days. An old man, when he meets his old friends, he talks about his youthful days. That means as spirit soul I am always youthful, but due to this condition of this body, I am feeling sometimes childish, sometimes old man, sometimes this or that.

Bhagavad-gītā explains this idea very nicely: na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. The spirit soul has no birth nor death. This body, just like we are no longer in our past childhood body, similarly, when this body will be also finished, it does not mean that I will not exist. I will continue to exist. As I am existing, as I can remember my childhood days, my youthful days, therefore I am existing. In spite of my…, that childhood body being finished, my youthful body being finished, I am existing. Similarly, after finishing this body also, I will exist. Is there any difficulty to understand? There is no difficulty. I am eternal. The only difference is that, because we are infinitesimal living spark, therefore we forget. Just like I can remember roughly about my childhood days, but I cannot remember the day to day activities in my childhood. That is, that defect is there due to my infinitesimal position. In the Bhagavad-gītā this fact was very nicely discussed between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa said that "This philosophy was spoken by Me to the sun-god millions of years ago," Arjuna inquired, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, how can I believe that you spoke some millions of years ago this philosophy to the sun-god?" What was the answer? The answer is, Kṛṣṇa said, "Yes, millions and millions of times I also appeared, and you also appeared. The difference is that you do not remember, I remember." That is the difference between God and ordinary living being. Otherwise, qualitatively, God and the living entity the same. So only difference is that He is great, infinite. Therefore, we can not calculate His infinite qualities. But I, being infinitesimal, my qualities, my capacities, my energy, they are very infinitesimal. Therefore, I forget. And because I forget, therefore I cannot remember what was my body in my last birth. Because I cannot remember. Death means forget. Just like at night you forget everything, sleeping. Similarly, when this body is finished, we forget about this body. We are interested in the next body. So this forgetfulnss is the opposite number of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are trying to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness means we are trying to get out of this conditional life of forgetfulness. That is our perfection of life. We are trying to achieve that perfectional state of life. That is called struggle for existence, and somehow or other defeated.

So, our last point of perfection, where we can survive eternally, is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is started in your country. It is not a new manufactured thing, concocted thing. It is very old, because the Bhagavad-gītā is there. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means Bhagavad-gītā. Even from historical calculation, the Bhagavad-gītā was spoken at least five thousand years ago. So, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, even from historical calculation, at least five thousand years old. So, modern history of the world cannot give any chronological data of historical event more than three thousand years, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is still older, from prehistoric days. It is not new. Eternal. As I am eternal, God is eternal, this consciousness is also eternal. But because we have forgotten due to the covering of the illusory energy, we have to revive it. That is our business. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said,

nitya-siddha-kṛṣṇa-bhakti 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

[Cc. Madhya 22.107]

This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dormant in every person; otherwise why you are taking so much interest? You are all American boys and girls. I don't think in this meeting there is any Indians. Somebody may say that "Kṛṣṇa is Indian, Kṛṣṇa is Hindu. It is Hindu God." No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. If Kṛṣṇa would not have been for everyone, how could you, especially, take up this movement so serious? Kṛṣṇa also said that He does not belong to any particular sect. He said that all living entities in different types of forms, 8,400,000's of forms, and Kṛṣṇa claims that He is the seed-giving father of all of them.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not limited to any particular sect, any particular country, or people. It is for everyone. It is universal. Simply we have to revive it. That consciousness is there in everybody. It is dormant, and we are just trying to revive it. Just a man is sleeping, and some of his friends is calling him, "Mr. such and such please wake up. You are too much sleeping. Please wake up." So, similarly, our movement is, in this country, "My dear Western brothers, you are too much sleeping in material hallucination. This is not your business. Sleeping is not business. Please wake up. Please be awakened. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So, simply by awakening… Our business is to awaken, and then he takes to it. Then he remembers everything.

So, I am so pleased that these boys are kindly helping me in spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and Kṛṣṇa will bless them. I am very insignificant. I have no capacity. My business is only to convey the message of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a postal peon: his business is to convey the letter. He is not responsible for the body of the letter. The reaction… After reading one letter the addressee may feel something, but that responsibility is not for the peon. Similarly, my responsibility is, what I have received from disciplic succession, from my spiritual master, I am just presenting the same thing, but without any adulteration. That is my business. That is my responsibility. I must present things exactly in the same way as it was presented by Kṛṣṇa, as it was presented by Arjuna, as it was presented by our ācāryas, Lord Caitanya, and at last my spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja. So, similarly, if you take up the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the same spirit, and if you distribute to other people, to your other countrymen, surely it will be effective, because there is no adulteration. There is no bluff. There is no cheating. It is pure spiritual consciousness. Just practice it and distribute it. Your life will be glorious.

Thank you very much. (end)

710716LE.DET

Lecture

Detroit, July 16, 1971

Prabhupāda: So the window doors are open or not?

Devotee: Yes, they're open.

Prabhupāda: Then open… There are so many men. It must be… Ventilation must be there.

ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

Ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Ajñāna means ignorance, darkness. Timi. Timi means darkness. So ajñāna-timirāndhasya: one who is in ignorance and in the darkness, such a person, every one of us… This material advancement of civilization is not knowledge. People may not agree with us, but actually this is the fact. This is ignorance. Suppose I have come here in your city. I have got some business. So if I forget my business and I become busy with my apartment, is that very sound knowledge? I have come here to execute some business. I have got my temple here. There are devotees. They want to see me. I want to see them. They want to take something, spiritual knowledge, from me, and my duty is to impart. This is the business. But if I simply become engaged how to decorate the apartment where I shall live and forget my business, does it mean that I am very intelligent? No. Therefore that is called ignorance. I forget my real business; I become engaged in some business which is very temporary. I am here for two days. I shall live in an apartment. It may be very nice or not very nice-that is not very important thing. For two days I can live anywhere, even underneath a tree. That does not hamper my business. But I must be very serious about my business. That is intelligence. If I forget my business and simply engage myself how to decorate the apartment, or simply thinking how I shall live here comfortably… Just like I saw one advertisement while coming: "Comfortably living in (indistinct) begins here." I saw.

So we are contemplating to live in this material world very comfortably. That has become our business. That is very much manifest in your Western countries. They are always busy how to live comfortably in this world. But they forget that one day will come, however secure and comfortable we may make our country or home, we will be kicked out: "Please get out immediately." You cannot say that "I have not finished my decoration of the apartment. Let me stay here for some days." No. The death is so cruel that one day, all of a sudden, it will come and say, "Please get out immediately." So if I could not finish my business during that time, and if I am kicked out, then just imagine how much loss we suffer and what kind of fool we are. The modern civilization, they do not know this. They think that "This body has come out all of a sudden by accident"-and the body means the senses-"and let us enjoy the senses to the best capacity. That is perfection of life." The whole world, especially the Western country, their ideology, philosophy, is this, hedonism. "Enjoy this life very comfortably, as nicely as possible." But that is a great defect and great mistake. Those who are in gross sense enjoyment platform, it is very difficult for them to understand. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Those who are too much attached to material sense enjoyment, bhoga… Bhoga means material sense enjoyment. And roga, roga means which puts impediments to sense enjoyment, or diseased condition. You cannot enjoy life in diseased condition. (aside:) Don't make that sound. Hear first of all. So bhoga, roga, and there is another word, yoga. These are Sanskrit words. Bhoga. Bhoga means enjoying sense gratification. Roga means diseased condition, where, when we cannot enjoy. And yoga means to get out of this bhoga and roga and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is called yoga. Bhogī, rogī, and yogi. (laughter) Yes. Bhogī means they are interested in sense gratification, and rogī means those who are suffering.

Every one of us suffering more or less, because this is a place where suffering is the condition of life. But we forget. That is called ajñāna. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Ajñāna means that we living entities, being part and parcel of God, our position is as good as God. We may be little God, but our position qualitatively is as good as God. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they take it that we are as good as God in full strength. No. That is not. Just like part and parcel, anyone can understand, a little part of any good thing… Suppose gold. A little particle of gold, it is gold. That's a fact. But it is not as valuable as the lump of gold. The lump of gold is more valuable. The mine of gold and a particle of gold: particle of gold is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. So the Absolute Truth, God, is just like gold mine, and we, every one of us, everything-a part and parcel of that gold mine. We are also gold. But the quality being the same, the propensities should be also the same. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Here Kṛṣṇa is enjoying with gopīs. So because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we also want to enjoy life with young girls, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. This propensity to enjoy life with young girls or young boys, that is natural. Yuvatīnāṁ yathā yunoḥ yunaṁ yatati yathā yuvatī (?). Young girl, young boy, they have got natural tendency to mix, to love. That is not unnatural. Why? Because this propensity is there in the Supreme. Just like you see Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa picture.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

Govinda, Lord Kṛṣṇa, He has expanded His ānanda-cinmaya-rasa energy. That ānanda-cinmaya-rasa energy expanded, there are so many gopīs, cowherds boys, cows, calves. They're giving, all combined together, ānanda, transcendental bliss to Kṛṣṇa. Just like… It is not very difficult to understand. Just like somebody keeps a batch of dogs to love. The dog also love the master, and the master loves the dog. So why not Kṛṣṇa loving cows and calves and they also love Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty to understand? This tendency try to understand.

The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now what is the Absolute Truth? That is the question in the Vedānta-sūtra. The answer is, "The Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates." Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Now, now, what is that Absolute Truth? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt: "By nature He is blissful." Now try to understand. If the Absolute Truth, God, is blissful, full of enjoyment… Blissful means without enjoyment there is no bliss. Ānandamaya abhyāsa. So we must be blissful. We must enjoy life very nicely. But that is not possible here, because here we are in diseased condition. The proof of diseased condition is that there is birth, death, old age and disease. These are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Every effort is being made here to surpass distressed condition and to reach to the platform of happiness. The whole struggle is there. Why people are running by motorcar this way and that way? The background is to be happy, how to become happy. But they are making planning: "I shall be happy in this way. I shall be happy in that way." Just like there is advertisement, "Come on. There are some naked girl pictures." They are inviting, "Come here. You will be happy." So we are planning for happiness. Why? Why you are searching after happiness? Because constitutionally you are happy. Just like when we fall diseased we go to the doctor, physician, to cure the disease. Why? Because constitutionally we are healthy. To remain healthy is our normal life, and to fall diseased condition, that is not normal; that is abnormal. Therefore we go to the physician, take medicine, ask treatment, "How shall I be cured?" Similarly, we are searching after happiness. Why? Because constitutional position is we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, who is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). He is by nature full of bliss. But our blissfulness has been disturbed. Now we shall have to find out why our happiness has been disturbed so that life after life, we are searching after happiness but we are becoming frustrated. That is our business, not to make the temporary place very comfortable.

Just like when you go to your office but you find the bus too much crowded. But you are not happy. Because the bus is too crowded, you have to stand, or very…, with difficulty you have to stand. You don't like that. But because you have to go to the office, you tolerate. You tolerate. "First my business is to go to office, attend at the time. What can be done? Let me suffer this." Similarly, if you are serious about your business, that seriousness can be understood in this human form of life. The animals cannot understand. The animals, they are taken to slaughterhouse, and one said… If one animal enters, all the animals will enter. They do not know. Even they know that "We are going to be slaughtered," they have no means to protest or to go out. If a human being is slaughtered in the street, then his relatives, his kinsmen, file suit and brings the man into law. So many facilities are there for a human being. But an animal, because it is animal, it has no facility. A cow is born in America, and a gentleman is born in America, but the state takes care of the gentleman, not of the cows. They say "national," "nationality." Why nationality is refused to the animals? Just like few days or few years ago the nationality was also awarded to the black man. This is nice. Why one section of humanity should be denied nationality? That was very nice. So similarly, if national means the living entity born in that land… That is natural. If a child, even of an Indian, if a child is born in your country he gets immediately the citizenship. That is the law. So the conclusion is that anyone who is born in this land, he gets nationality. But why we should refuse nationality to the poor animals? This is called ignorance. He is also… But we have made concoction, law, that "Animal has no soul." Why it is, it has no soul? What is the difference between you and animal? You eat; the animal eats. You sleep; the animal sleeps. You have sex life; the animal has sex life. You also try to defend yourself and the animal also tries to defend himself. So āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca, eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, these four principles, bodily demand, are similar to the animal and to the man. So why the animals should be denied nationality? It is not that because they are less intelligent they should be denied nationality. No. Just like a father has got four boys. Not that everyone is of the same intelligence. But does the father give less protection to the less intelligent son? No. The protection, the family protection, is equal for everyone.

These are the conception, bhāgavata community, equal right to everyone, even to the animals. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ, learned. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is fully learned, paṇḍita. So what is the symptom of a paṇḍita, learned man? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

One person is very learned. In our country a brāhmaṇa is supposed to be very learned; therefore he is addressed as paṇḍita. Paṇḍita means very learned. Nowadays he may be a fool number one, but he is called paṇḍita. That is not actually the fact. A brāhmaṇa means very, very learned in Vedic literature. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. One who has studied the Vedas very nice, he is vipra. So one who is actually paṇḍita, he will see a learned brāhmaṇa, a hog, a dog, and a caṇḍāla, an elephant, like that, everyone, all living entities-that means all living entities-on the equal level because he sees to the soul, not to the body. Just like we are meeting here. We are seeing each other. We have not come here to see the dress; we have come to see or to learn some knowledge. Similarly, the human life is especially meant for grasping the knowledge we are missing. The missing knowledge is that I have forgotten that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa. That is the missing point. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for reviving that lost consciousness. That lost consciousness. We have lost this consciousness that "I am the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, the supreme blissful enjoyer, but somehow or other, being complicated within this matter, I am suffering. I am trying to become happy with this material atmosphere, which is not possible." Just like if you are put into the water you may be very nice swimmer, but you cannot be happy there because the water is not your place. You are a living entity of the land. Similarly, a fish, if you take out of the water and give it a velvet bedding, "My dear fish, you lie down here, on the velvet," he'll die because the condition is different. Similarly, we are spirit soul, Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. So unless we go back to Kṛṣṇa, just like the gopīs or the cowherds boy, we cannot be happy. There is no possibility.

So the ideal pictures are there, that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and you go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa, and be happy. That is our program. It is very nice program. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not an ordinary, bluffing movement. It is a solid, authorized movement, and we are opening branches as far as possible in all parts of the world to give facility to the people, to the civilized men, to understand what is the value of his life, how he can be happy. That is our business. We have no business to cheat you, that "I give you some mantra, and you give me some money. I go away." No. We have come to serve you, so you take advantage. You don't misunderstand us, that "It is a religious sect." No. We are not religious sect. We are cultural sect. We are giving the highest culture to the human society, to awaken his lost consciousness. So I am very happy to see you all, American boys, Indians. This is wanted. We want to unite the whole world under this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And actually that is happening. In our society we have got devotees from all section of people-from Christian, from Jews, from Hindus, from Muhammadan, from black, from white. It doesn't matter, because we are seeing according to the Bhagavad-gītā, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. A learned man sees every living entity on the equal level. So we are trying to see in that light, and we are trying to teach others also how to accept that light, how to enjoy that light. So it is a very serious movement. You can take. Every one of you can take advantage of it. It is not very difficult to practice, because our process is very simple. You come and chant with us Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anyone can pronounce this word Hare Kṛṣṇa. Actually we are seeing all over the world. There is no difficulty to chant this mantra. It is open. There is no secrecy, that "I shall give you one mantra, a particular mantra for you." No. This mantra is one, and it is equally applicable to everyone-to the learned, to the ignorant, to the white, to the black, to the old, to the youth. Everyone can chant. And actually it is happening. It is very easy. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and learn how to chant. There is… Of course, there is no hard and fast rules. You begin chanting in whatever condition you are and see the result. And so far examples, we have got our temples, we have got our devotees. How they are living, how their characters are being formed, how they are becoming purified, how their faces are becoming brighter, you try to see. It is practical. So that is our request, that you take full advantage of this center. You come here. It is being guided by one of my best disciples, Bhagavān dāsa. So he and others will help you. Please come regularly to this temple and take advantage of it.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: So is there any other business? I shall go.

Devotee: Prasādam.

Prabhupāda: All right. Ārati? If you have got any question, you can… Sit down. Come on.

Bahulāśva: What is the thing that will please you most, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bahulāśva: What is the thing that would please you the most?

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: That is the simple thing. You are chanting. I am very much pleased. That's all. I came to your country to chant, that "You chant also along with me." So you are helping me by chanting. So I am pleased. But this tendency is very nice, that you want to please me. That is very good. And to please me is not very difficult. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Under My order, every one of you go and preach and become spiritual master." And what is that order? The order is that "Whomever you meet, you talk to him about Kṛṣṇa."

yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

āmāra ajñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

He says that "Under My order, you become a spiritual master." To become a spiritual master under the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not very difficult. Unless we adulterate, mix in something nonsense in His teachings, if we simply present, as it is, then every one of us can become a spiritual master. But the difficulty is that they mix up something. Just like you have tasted sweet rice, paramānna. And if somebody mixes some sand with it… The paramānna is very good, but because it is mixed with some sand particles it is spoiled. You cannot take. This is practical. Similarly, the teachings of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, is very simple. But the rascals put some sand particles. That is the difficulty. Spoils the broth, spoils the everything. "Kṛṣṇa means this, and Pāṇḍava means this." Why "Pāṇḍava means this"? Why not as it is in the Bhagavad-gītā? So this process should be avoided, mixing sand with the sweet rice. This rascaldom should be avoided. Then you can, everyone can distribute nicely. So many people say, "Oh, Swamijī, you have done wonderful." So I say, the secret of my wonderful activities is that I have not tried to adulterate it. I am simply presenting as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So I have told you that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I say that "You simply surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." So what is the difficulty? Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, and I am simply reproducing it: "Do this." And it is acting. Because I am not adulterating the sweet rice with sand, people are tasting it very nice. So you also follow the same principle. Don't try to adulterate. Present it as it is. And people will like it. There is no difficulty.

So this is a paramparā. Our system is paramparā, guru-paramparā. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru. He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So if we say in a similar way that "Give up everything. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just always think of Kṛṣṇa. Chant Kṛṣṇa's name. Worship Kṛṣṇa. Offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa," where is the difficulty? It is very simple thing. All our disciples, they are doing the same thing. I have come here for the first time, but before me, Bhagavān dāsa, he has organized. But what is his credit? He has presented the thing as I have told him. That's all. This is wonderful. In Los Angeles also our program is going on very nicely. He, my disciple in charge, Karandhara-he's present here-he's simply doing what I instruct, and he's doing very nicely, first class. Everyone who comes, they become enchanted with the temple, with the activities, with the disciples. So this is the way. This is called paramparā system. Don't try to manufacture. The difficulty is that we are manufacturing. And some rascals are supporting that "Whatever you manufacture, it is all right." This is another rascaldom. They are supporting that "Whatever you think of, religion, whatever you manufacture, it is all right." We don't say that. We say, "What Kṛṣṇa says, that is right. And everything (else) wrong." That is our business. So if you say like that, "What Kṛṣṇa says is all right," that will please me. We don't want to adulterate and bluff.

Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on. (kīrtana) Very good. Go on. (end)

710720LE.LA

Lecture

Los Angeles, July 20, 1971

(tape begins with kīrtana and maṅgalācaraṇa prayers)

Prabhupāda: So ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here and participating with this movement. It is very important movement to bring man to his original consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to bring a living entity to his original consciousness. Just like there are many mental hospitals. What is that? Bellevue? In your city? The purpose of the hospital is to bring a crazy fellow to his original consciousness. Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring all crazy men to his original consciousness. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is to be understood-more or less crazy. There was a case in India, a murder case, and the murderer pleaded that he became mad. He was mad; therefore he, he did not know what did he do. So in order to test him, whether actually he, at that time, was lunatic or turned mad, the expert civil servant, psychiatrist, was brought to examine him. So the doctor gave his opinion that "So far I have studied cases, all patients I've come in contact, they are more or less all crazy. So in that sense, if your lordship wants to excuse him, that is another thing." So that is the fact. In a nice Bengali poetry, one great Vaiṣṇava poet has written,

piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya

māyā-grasta jīvera se dāsa upajaya

Piśācī, ghost, when a man becomes ghostly haunted, he speaks so many nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is under the influence of this material nature, he is ghostly haunted, and whatever he speaks, he speaks nonsense. Never mind he is a great philosopher, great scientist, but because he is ghostly haunted by māyā, so whatever he's theorizing, whatever he's speaking, that is, more or less, nonsense.

So our this movement is to bring man to his original consciousness, which is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, clear consciousness. I have several times mentioned this. Just like water, when it falls down from the cloud, it is distilled water. You catch water before falling down to the ground, it is distilled water. The chem… As distilled water is without any contamination, similarly, the rainwater is also distilled water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy-colored, so many things. Similarly, we spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa… Therefore our original constitutional position is as pure as God, because we are part and parcel of God. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "The living entities are my part and parcel." So fragmental part of gold is gold; it may be fragmental. Similarly, we are minute particles of God's body; therefore, qualitatively, we are as good as God. The chemical composition of God's body and our body… Not this body. This is material. I am speaking of our spiritual identification, that body. That is as good as God. The chemical composition is one. But similarly, as the rainwater falls down on the ground, similarly, as we come in contact with this material world,… Material world means it is being manipulated by the material energy of Kṛṣṇa, prakṛti, nature. Nature means whose nature? As soon as we speak of nature, it must be inquired, "Whose nature?" God's nature. Nature is not acting independently. That is another foolishness. In the Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly said that nature, this material nature is not independent. Just like a foolish man, when he sees that machine is working automatically, machine is not working automatically. There is a driver. A foolish man cannot see behind the machine a driver. That is our defect in vision. A machine, there is electronics working very wonderfully. But behind that electronic work, there is a great scientist who is pushing the button. It is very simple to understand. Machine is matter. It cannot work out of its own accord. It is working under some spiritual direction. Just like this machine, the tape recorder, is working, but it is working under the direction of a living entity, a human being. The machine is all complete, but unless it is manipulated by a spirit soul, it cannot work. Similarly, take it for granted that the whole cosmic manifestation is a great machine, nature. But behind this material nature, there is God, Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

[Bg. 9.10]

Mayādhyakṣeṇa: "Under My direction…" Mayā adhyakṣena. Adhyakṣa means superintendence. "Under My direction, superintendence…" Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. Cara, cara and acara. Cara means moving, and acara means not moving. Just like trees, mountains, they are not moving, but human beings, animals, ants, they are moving. So there are two kinds of entities: moving and not moving. So Kṛṣṇa says that material nature is acting on both these objects, moving and not moving. "They are acting under My direction."

So there is supreme control. The modern civilization, they do not understand it due to lack of knowledge. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to enlighten people to come to this point of knowledge. They're all crazy, conducted by the influence of the three modes of material nature. They're not in normal condition. So it is very important movement. We invite… This morning also I said at the press representative meeting at the airport that there are so many universities and, especially in your country, department of knowledge, but why they are not discussing this point? Where is the department of knowledge? Sometimes past, I think sometimes in 1968, when I went to Boston, I was invited to speak in the technical institute. So my first question was that "Where is that technological department which is making investigation between the dead man and the living man?" Where is that technology? A man becomes dead. Something is losing. Where is that technology to replace it? Why do they not try for it? But because it is very difficult subject, they set aside. They are busy for technology, for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that's all. Animal technology. The animals also trying their best, how to eat nice, how to have nice sex life, how to sleep and how to defend. So what is the difference between man's knowledge and animals' knowledge. The man's knowledge should be developed to find out this technology, what is the difference between a living man and a dead man, a living body and dead body. That is spiritual knowledge. That is… That was taught by Kṛṣṇa in the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna was talking as a friend, replying Him as a friend. Of course, he was… Whatever he was talking, that was right, but that was right to a certain point. Beyond that point, there are other subject matter of knowledge, which is called adhokṣaja, where our direct perception of material knowledge fails to approach. Just like we cannot see. There are so many microscopes, powerful microscopes. Then find out within this body where is the soul. No, there is no microscope. But soul is there. Soul is there. Bhagavad-gītā informs,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Asmin dehe, in this body, there is a proprietor of this body. Just like I am proprietor of my body, you are proprietor of your body. I say, "My hand." I don't say, "I hand." It is my hand. So I am different from this hand. Just like say, "It is my book," so book is different from me. "It is my table." Similarly, "my hand," "my eyes," "my leg," "my this," "my that." But where I am? Search out. That is meditation. "Where I am? What I am?"

So you cannot search out by your material… That. Therefore all these universities, they are setting aside, very difficult subject. They are very much proud by creating a horseless carriage. That's all. Formerly horses were drawing carriages. Now there is motorcar. So they are very much proud: "We have invented horseless carriage." Or wingless bird. There is wing, imitation wing of the aeroplane. But you invent that a soul-less body. Then there is credit. That cannot be… No machine can work without a soul. I was talking of this computer. What is called? Computer? Eh? Computer. But still, a trained man requires to handle the computer. Then what is the meaning of this computer? Whatever machine you make… Similarly, we should understand that this great machine, which is known as cosmic manifestation, material nature-there is a supreme spirit which is manipulating. That is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says. It is confirmed. So our process of knowledge is very easy and perfect. The scientists, they are searching out what is the ultimate cause or ultimate control of this material nature, and they are putting, theorizing different propositions. But our means of knowledge, very easy and perfect because we are hearing from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. And He says, mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. So immediately we know that all this cosmic machine, which is working so nicely and wonderfully, behind this machine the driver is Kṛṣṇa. Exactly behind a machine here, there is a machine driver, similarly, behind this big machine of material nature, there is Kṛṣṇa.

So our process of knowledge very easy. Kṛṣṇa's book, Bhagavad-gītā, is the knowledge, book of knowledge which is given by the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. You may argue that "You have accepted Him as a perfect person, but we do not." You may not. But He is perfect person on the evidence of many authorities. It is not by my whims I accept Kṛṣṇa as the perfect person. No. There are many authorities, Vedic authorities. Formerly… Just like Vyāsadeva. He's the author of all Vedic literature, the treasure-house of knowledge, Vedas. He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His spiritual master, Nārada, he accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His spiritual master, Brahmā, he accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1], Brahmā says. "The supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa." Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. We are controller, everyone. Nobody can say that "I am without controller." No, that is not possible. Everyone has got a controller. However big officer you may be, you have a controller over your head. But Kṛṣṇa has no controller; therefore He is God. He is controller of everyone, but He has no controller; therefore He's God. So there are many so-called Gods nowadays. Very… God has become very cheap, especially they are imported from India. They are not manufactured in here. You are fortunate. But India, they're coming out, "God," practically every day. They are… The other day, Karandhara was telling me that some God was coming to Los Angeles, and they were requested to receive him. So Kṛṣṇa is not that kind of God. I mentioned in my introduction to Kṛṣṇa book that Kṛṣṇa is not that type of God, manufactured in mystic factory. No. He is God. He was not made God, but He is God.

So the point is that behind this material, big material nature, cosmic manifestation, there is God. That is Kṛṣṇa, and accepted by all authorities. We have to accept things which is accepted by authorities. That is our education. We go to teacher. We go to school. We learn from father, mother. They're all authorities. And our nature is to learn… "Father, what is this?" in childhood. Father says, "This is this, pen. This is spectacle. This is table." So he learns from father, mother, "This is table. This is spectacle. This is pen. This is this. She is my sister. She (He) is my brother." So similarly, if we get information from the authority, and if the authority is not a cheater, then our knowledge is perfect, and very easy. Just like father, mother, never cheats. When the son inquires from the parent, the parent gives exact information, right information. Similarly, if we get right information from the right person, that is perfect knowledge. If you want to reach to the conclusion by speculation, that is imperfect, inductive process. That will never become perfect. It will remain imperfect for all the time. So we get information from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever we speak, that is perfect because we don't speak anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa or authorities who have accepted Kṛṣṇa. That is called disciplic succession. So our process is, process of acquiring knowledge, is very easy and perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot say anything which is not accepted by the authorities coming from Kṛṣṇa. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa recommends this process of knowledge: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. "This knowledge, formerly, all the great saintly kings…" Formerly, there was monarchy. Just like nowadays also, the government is authority. Your President is authority. So in the days of monarchical king, government, the monarch or the king is head of the government. He is authority. But formerly, those authorities, those kings, were ṛṣis, great learned scholars, ṛṣis, great devotees. They were not ordinary men. That system of government was very nice. One person, well talented, well trained as the head of the government, very peacefully he could execute the governmental function. There were many instances, the Vedic civilization, how the kings were perfect. You'll find from Dhruva Mahārāja's instances that Dhruva Mahārāja went to the forest to search out God, and he found out. By severe type of penances and austerities, he found out God within six months. How? He was a five-years-old body, child. According to the direction of his spiritual master, Nārada, he went alone in the forest, although a king's son, very delicate body. So in the first month he simply used to eat some vegetables after three days, each three days. One, two, three-then he eats something, some fruits, some vegetables. Then next three months, each six days, he used to little, drink little water. And next month, in each twelve days, he used to inhale some air. In this way, for six months he stood in one leg and executed these austerities, and at the end of six months, God became manifest before him eye to eye. So if we follow austerities, then it will be possible to see God eye to eye and perfection of life.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is austerity, but it is not very difficult. We recommend our students not to have illicit sex. We don't stop sex, but regulate. We don't stop eating, but regulated, Kṛṣṇa prasādam. No meat-eating. No… We don't say, "No eating," but "No meat-eating." So what is the difficulty? Now see. In our Kṛṣṇa-prasādam, we have got so many varieties of fruits, vegetables, nicely cooked. What is the difficulty? No illicit sex means don't be cats and dogs. Be married man and have one wife, one husband, and be satisfied. So unless we regulate, unless we undergo austerity… We cannot under go such severe type of austerity as Dhruva Mahārāja went, that every three days a little fruit or vegetable, then every six days a little water. That is not possible in these days. If you want to imitate Dhruva Mahārāja, it will be impossible. So we don't prescribe any impossible method, but possible method. But if you take to these principles, then you make advance in spiritual consciousness, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and as you make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become perfect in knowledge. Otherwise, what is the use of becoming scientist or philosopher who cannot say what is next life? But these students, they can very easily say what is next life, what is God, what I am, what is our relationship. This knowledge, you'll find perfectly, because they are reading perfect book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

So this is our process, very easy. Anyone can adopt and make his life perfect. And if somebody says that "I am not educated. I cannot read book," still, there is possibility. you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have got tongue. You have got ear. Kṛṣṇa has given you. And you'll be surprised to know that Kṛṣṇa is realized through tongue, not through eyes, not through ears. Tongue. Of course, after tongue, the other senses are following. Tongue is the chief. So we have to control the tongue. How to control? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and taste Kṛṣṇa-prasādam. That's all. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. "You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa by exercising your sensual perception, speculation." It is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is so great that He is not within your sensual exercise. No. He can be understood by surrender. Kṛṣṇa, therefore, recommends this process: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Because our disease is rebellious, no authority. We don't want any authority. That is our disease. We say we don't want any authority, but nature is so strong that he forces his authority upon you. You are forced to accept the authority of nature by your sensual exercise. You cannot say that "I am independent." You may say all nonsense, that "I don't want authority," but you are… Everyone is under authority. And that is our foolishness. We are under authority; still, we say we don't want any authority. This is called māyā, illusion. So the best authority is Kṛṣṇa. If we… After all, we have to accept authority. So why not best authority, Kṛṣṇa? Then your life becomes successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Any question?

Nanda-Kiśora: What happens to a person if we just give him out on the street one Simply Wonderful or some prasādam, one piece of prasādam?

Prabhupāda: That is wonderful, simply wonderful. (laughter) He has not tasted such wonderful sweet in his life. Therefore you give him wonderful, and because he's eating that wonderful sweet, one day he'll come to your temple and become wonderful.

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is simply wonderful. So go on distributing this Simply Wonderful. Your philosophy is simply wonderful. Your prasādam is simply wonderful. You are simply wonderful. And your Kṛṣṇa is simply wonderful. The whole process of simply wonderful. And He acts wonderfully, and it is acting wonderfully. Who can deny it?

Devotee: Prabhupāda is simply wonderful.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You can become… Everyone. All right, have kīrtana. (end)

710811LE.LON

Lecture

London, August 11, 1971

Prabhupāda: I have to speak something? So we are worshiping Rādhā-Mādhava, the lover or enjoyer of Rādhārāṇī. [break] Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, is enjoying ānanda-cinmaya-rasa, spiritual bliss. Cinmaya means spiritual, and rasa, bliss. That is eternal. We are also particles of that ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The Vedānta-sūtra says every living entity is ānanda-maya. Nature, living entity's nature is to be blissful, happy, always pleasing, but in our material condition of life we are just the opposite. There is neither pleasure, nor knowledge, nor eternity. But these three things are the symptoms of spiritual existence: eternity, blissfulness, and knowledge. [break] Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare, these names are so sweet that how I can relish the transcendental sweet… [break] …Rādhārāṇī, but in the Goloka Vṛndāvana, everything-the land, the water, the trees, the flowers, the cows, the cowherds boy, everything-they are expansion of Kṛṣṇa's internal potency, ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa's expansion of His own person. Just like when Brahmā stole all the cows and calves and cowherd boys of Kṛṣṇa to test Kṛṣṇa, whether He is actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa immediately expanded Himself in the typical same way: all the cows, calves, cowherd boys.

So there, in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything there-variety, all variety. Here also, the varieties are there. That is expansion of Kṛṣṇa's material energy, and in the spiritual world the varieties are expansion of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual energy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalā… Nija-rūpa, His own form, expansion. Goloka eva nivasati. Goloka Vṛndāvana. He is permanent resident there. Akhilātma-bhūto, but He is everywhere. Although situated in His own abode, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He can expand Himself. Because this material energy is also His energy, so from His energy He can manifest Himself anywhere. So here the Lord Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, that is the same Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī who are in the Goloka Vṛndāvana. It is simply expansion to give us facility to accept our service. I think I have given many times this example. Just like in front of your door there is a mailbox. That mailbox, although it appears to be a small box, but it is post office. It is not different from post office. The practical example is that you place your letters within the box and it goes thousands and thousand miles away. Therefore it is post office. Don't think that it is different from the post office. Similarly, ānanda-cinmaya-rasa expansion-this Deity. When you are worshiping this Deity, exactly, just like you are posting your letters in the mailbox, it is accepted by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that you are worshiping some doll. No. As the post office kindly places a box before your house to facilitate your business, similarly Kṛṣṇa, goloka eva nivasati, He is living in the Goloka Vṛndāvana, but He expands Himself as Deity to accept your humble service. Never consider that the Deity is made of stone or brass or wood or like that. Brass, wood, stone-everything is Kṛṣṇa because everything is Kṛṣṇa's energy. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "It is Mine." So everything is Kṛṣṇa's, and from everything, Kṛṣṇa can appear and accept your service. This is the philosophy. He can appear Himself through stone because stone is His energy. Just like if the electric power is running on, from anywhere you can take electricity, energy. Similarly, his energy is running on everywhere, and you can take the facility of His energy from anywhere, provided you know how to take it. Electric, where insulation is there, but one who knows… I have seen in your country. The telephone man immediately comes and joins telephone. But he knows how to do it. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa can be manifested from anywhere, everywhere, from anything, provided you know how to do it.

So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching people how to see Kṛṣṇa everywhere.

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.38]

That technique is love of Godhead. If you learn, it doesn't matter what religion you profess. It is no concern. We do not say that "You become Hindu," "You become Muslim," or "Christian." No. We say that "You become lover of God." You learn how to love God. Your loving propensity is there, but it is being misplaced. It is placed on dog instead of God; therefore you are unhappy. When your loving propensity will be placed in the proper place, you will be happy. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, love of Godhead.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

If you want happiness, then you must learn how to love God. You are trying to love somebody, but you are being frustrated, foiled. Because except God, nobody is loving object. And if you love God, then naturally you love everything because God is everything. The example is that if you pour water on the root of the tree, it goes everywhere-to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers, everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaf, it is localized. It does not spread. So we are manufacturing, inventing, so many humanitarian work, welfare work, but still, people are unhappy. Why? Because it is pouring water on the leaf, not on the root. So learn by Kṛṣṇa consciousness how to love Kṛṣṇa and how to love your country, your society, your friends, everything. But without loving Kṛṣṇa, you cannot love. This is the secret. And if you love… Just like because I love Kṛṣṇa, therefore I have come to your country. I had no business to come to your country, naturally. But we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we love everyone. We don't make any distinction. We love animals also. We don't like to see animal killing. That is also one of our propaganda: "No meat-eating." Why? To save the animals, because we love animals also. We love even the ant-because we love Kṛṣṇa.

So this is the technique of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that if you learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love everything. Otherwise, your love will be localized and you will be frustrated. It is most scientific. And our process is very simple: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name-nondifferent. So chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa means you are associating with Kṛṣṇa. That means you are directly in touch with the root of everything. So by advancing in love for Kṛṣṇa, you can love your society, your country, your community, your family, your husband, your wife, your children, your friend-everything, complete, pūrṇam. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya [Iso Invocation]. And that love will never be ended. Pūrṇa. Love of Kṛṣṇa is so complete that you go on distributing this love; it will never be expended. It will remain the same stock. So I am very glad to see you in this temple. Please try to understand our philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have got books, and at the same time we have got the simple method, chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, in which even a small child can take part. The small… Most erudite scholar also can take part, and an innocent child who has no education, no literary sense, he can also take part equally. And equally, both of them take the same advantage. A small child who comes before the Deity and dances and claps, he is getting the result. Don't think that it is in vain. He is also getting the same… Just like fire. Either a child touches or an adult touches, fire's action will be there, equal. Similarly, anyone who is coming in this temple, offering obeisances, taking little prasāda, joining with the chanting, hearing some talks, everyone will be benefited spiritually. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much.

Devotee: Jaya, Prabhupāda. (end)

710813LE.LON

Lecture Excerpt

London, August 13, 1971

Prabhupāda: What is that original cause, chunk? Can you say?

Śyāmasundara: Something gas.

Prabhupāda: Gas.

Śyāmasundara: Liquid gas.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, that is not sentient. That is material. Gas is also material. Gas is another form, vapor. Vapor. Vapor is made out of water. Water or… Vapor is air, major portion of air and minor portion of water. In this way, vapor. So that means it is airy. But no. Air has got its cause. They do not know. Air has got its cause, the sky. The sky has its cause. In this way there is creation. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam everything is explained.

So this Brahma-saṁhitā, the point is, in this Brahma-saṁhitā Kṛṣṇa's name is there. In the Atharva Veda there is Kṛṣṇa's name. So our process of knowledge, if there is Vedic evidence, that is perfect. You don't require to experiment. Experimental knowledge is never perfect. The same example as we have given several times: that which is unknowable, inconceivable, that knowledge you cannot get by experiment. That is not possible. You have to receive the knowledge from authority. Just like you cannot understand who is your father by experiment, laboratory. Bring every man and analyze him whether he is your father. Is it possible? No. How many men you will bring in the laboratory? That is not possible. But if you approach to the authority, the mother, immediately you get the knowledge. Ask your mother, "Who is my father?" She'll say, "Here is your father." That means you receive the knowledge from the authority, not by experimental knowledge. Which is inconceivable, beyond your perception, beyond your imagination, that knowledge you cannot get by experiment. They are trying to make experi… [break] …soul. The so-called scientists, they say, "We are trying." You can try on, but it is beyond your experience, beyond your knowledge. Your senses are all imperfect. You can… You cannot understand soul by experimental knowledge. You have to hear from the authority. Just like Kṛṣṇa says,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

This is the process. But you can think over. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Dehe means "Within this body, there is the proprietor of the body." That is soul. Now, by experimenting, by taking in somebody's body, just like in medical science they dissect the body, you cannot find out. It is so small. Therefore you are saying, "There is no soul." But there is soul. From your experimental knowledge, you cannot understand where is that soul, but there is soul. When the soul is out, the body is dead, useless. That we can experience. Anubhāva. It is called anubhāva perception. So anyone, any sane man, can understand there is something missing. The scientists also say, "the something missing." Now, what is that missing, they cannot say. If they knew it, what is missing, then they are scientists, they could produce again that thing by laboratory mixture of chemicals and put it into the body, and he becomes alive. No, that is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Therefore Veda says that "Don't uselessly argue on subject matter which is beyond your perception." That is not the process.

So here, the original cause is being explained by Vyāsadeva. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Now, what type of that supreme cause is that? Is it a stone or sentient? No. Vyāsadeva informs, no. The original cause, how it can be a stone? Original cause cannot be. It must be sentient. Creator must be sentient. Without brain, without creative power, how there can be creation? Where is your argument? No, that is not. These are false arguments. Therefore Vyāsadeva gives you information that He is sentient, in full knowledge. In full knowledge. What kind of knowledge? Anvaya-vyatirekābhyām, directly and indirectly. That is full knowledge. Just like I say "my head" or "my hair," but if I ask you or you ask that "How many hairs are there?" oh, I am ignorant. I do not know. Similarly, we are so imperfect that we may have little knowledge even of our own body. We are eating, but how the eatables are being transformed into secretion, how they are becoming blood, how they are being passed through the heart, and it becomes red, and again diffuse all over the veins, and in this way the body is maintained, we know something, but how the work is going on, how this factory is going on, how the factory, machine, is working, we have very little knowledge. So indirectly we know that "This is my body." "Indirectly" means we have heard, but we have no direct knowledge. But Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme, the original of everything, He knows everything. Anvaya-vyatirekābhyām, indirectly and directly. Kṛṣṇa knows. I do not know how my body is working, but Kṛṣṇa knows. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. Kṣetra-jña… He is real, Supersoul. There is a Supersoul who is in knowledge of everything. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam. Full knowledge. I have no full knowledge of my body, but He has got full knowledge. I forget. What I did in the morning, early in the morning at four o'clock, if you ask me, I'll have to remember, "Yes, what I was doing?" We are so forgetful. Similarly, how we can remember of our past life? We are so forgetful. But Kṛṣṇa… (end)

711112LE.DEL

Pandal Lecture

Delhi, November 12, 1971

Prabhupāda: Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement. We are speaking here for the last one week, so it is very encouraging that we are reviving the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness of our brothers and sisters in India.

This Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement is to be learned from the very childhood. So far personally we are concerned, my father taught me this Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very childhood. My father was a great Vaiṣṇava, and I had the opportunity of taking birth in that family. So he gave me lessons of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning of my life. He gave me mṛdaṅga. He engaged a teacher for learning mṛdaṅga playing. Sometimes my mother was irritated. But somehow or other, I got the inspiration from my father worshiping a small Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. Actually the students, the children, should be given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the duty of the state, that is the duty of the parents, that is the duty of the guru, that is the duty of kinsmen. That is the instruction given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Gurur na sa syāt sva-jano na sa syāt, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This human form of life, as Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human form of life is obtained after many, many millions and millions of births, evolutionary process. We have already discussed this point. So that is the Vedic civilization, that a human being should be given chance to understand this Bhāgavata-dharma, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means Bhāgavata-dharma.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends, kaumāram ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. From the childhood. It is not that it is reserved for our old-age occupation. Sometimes we think like that, that "At the present moment we are young. Let us enjoy life. And at the old age, when you are old enough, preparing for death, at that time we may try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Bhāgavata-dharma." But Prahlāda Mahārāja says no. The children should be taught from the age, as we send our children to school in minor age, similarly we should send our children to understand this Bhāgavata-dharma. I am very pleased, I have seen practically in this Delhi that the Muslim children are given instruction of Koran from very early age. Actually, this should be done for everyone. I am very pleased. Not I am pleased, I may please or not, but that is the way of life. A human child should be given instruction about Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning, and that was our Vedic system, brahmacārī. Brahmacārī should go to the house of the teacher or spiritual master at the age of five years old, and he should remain there for twenty years to understand the value of life. And the brahmacārī would accept any kind of menial work for satisfying the spiritual master. It is stated that nīcayeva, just like menial servant. The brahmacārīs, they come from very respectable family, from brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family especially, but they are instructed that "You should accept the order of the spiritual master just like menial servant." And in young age, they do not mind. They do not have any false prestige, that "I am coming from such-and-such respectable family, my father is so rich." Even Lord Kṛṣṇa, He accepted this brahmacārī āśrama. When Sudāmā Vipra met Him when He was king in Dvārakā, so friendly talks, Kṛṣṇa reminded Sudāmā Vipra, "My dear Sudāmā, do you remember that one day we went to the forest to collect fuels, and there was heavy rain and we could not come out. And then we stayed the overnight on the top of the tree. Then next day Guru Mahārāja came and he took our…, rescued us. Do you remember that?" Sudāmā Vipra said, "Yes, I remember." So even Lord Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of others. This was the system, to teach from the very beginning of life this Bhāgavatam.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja's recommendation is very genuine. That is the Vedic system. But he was unfortunately born in an asura family. His father was a great asura. Asura means godless. He had also undergone severe austerity to achieve the power. He was defeated by the demigods. So he left his home and underwent severe austerities so that the whole universe became trembled and Brahmājī came to appease him, "What do you want?" He said, "I want to become immortal." So Brahmājī said, "How can I give you the benediction of immortality, because myself I am not immortal?" Everyone has to die in this material world, either one may be Brahmā or a small ant. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. "So this is not possible. I cannot make you immortal."

Then very diligently, he said, "All right, then no man will kill me."

"All right, accepted."

"No demigod will kill me."

"Also accepted."

"I shall not die at daytime."

"That's all right."

"I shall not die in night."

"That's all right."

"No animal can kill me."

"That's all right."

"No weapons can kill me."

"That's all right." In this way, he thought that "I am very intelligent and I am cheating Brahmājī. Indirectly, by different way, I have now become immortal."

So he also underwent great austerities, but for material enjoyment. He wanted to live forever in this material world. So he was never interested to teach his children about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But Prahlāda Mahārāja, fortunately, when he was in the womb of his mother, at the care of Nārada Muni, he understood the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because if you associate with a sādhu, the saintly person, then saintly person has nothing to do but simply deliver the knowledge, transcendental knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have no other duty. Just like Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, he was king but a great Vaiṣṇava. So about him it is stated, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. He was king, very responsible king, emperor of the world, but he cultivated this Kṛṣṇa consciousness that he fixed up his mind, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravindayor, always fixed up on the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. If you fix up your mind, concentrate your mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa is here present-then your mind becomes locked up. It cannot think anything else. Therefore Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, he fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.

And vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. When you have to talk, let us not talk all nonsense. Vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. Let us talk about Bhagavad-gītā, let us talk about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or any book which is describing the transcendental name, fame, glory, quality, pastime of Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply we have to change the process of our life, but unfortunately we are not interested. We shall waste our time in the morning, two hours, by discussing on politics and reading newspaper, what has happened. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. What is the news in the newspaper? The same thing. Somebody has murdered something, there is some car accident, one body has done this. The same thing repeatedly we are hearing. There is no other news. But we want to hear the same thing daily, the same newspaper items. Therefore, in the śāstra it is said, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Just like you chew something. Generally we chew that sugarcane. Now I have chewed it, I have taken out all the juice, and then I have thrown it away. If somebody comes, "Oh, let me taste it, what is there?" And another man comes. Is that very good intelligence? We have tasted this material world. Everyone has tasted. It is full of miseries. Tri-tāpa yantraṇā. Tri means three and tapa means miserable condition of life. Tri-tāpa. Adhyātmic, pertaining to this body and mind. Sometimes I am feeling some pain on my body, there is fever or some other ailment, the mind is not in order, this is called adhyātmic. Similarly, adhibhautic. Just like Pakistan is ready to attack us. If not Pakistan, then there are many other enemies. Even there are many other living entities, just like mosquito, fly, bugs. So adhibhautic: another living entity giving us trouble. And adhidaivic. Just like this famine, flood, pestilence, so many things which you cannot control.

So this is the position of this material world. Tri-tāpa yantraṇā trisura. You have seen the picture of Goddess Durgā, she is piercing the trisura on the chest of the asura, and he is suffering, his struggle for existence, fighting with the lion, rajo-guṇa. So this is the position of the material world, and the certificate is given by Kṛṣṇa, the Lord Himself, that this place is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Duḥkhālayam, always full of miseries. So the human form of life is meant for understanding what is my position. In the animal life we cannot understand that we are in a very, very miserable condition of life in this material world. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, mānuṣam, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, tad apy adhruvam. It will not stay. You can say, "All right, there is suffering. Let me suffer for some time, I shall get next life again or I shall be finished." But Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Why do you think like that? Why you want to die like cats and dogs? Just acquire the benefit which you can have in this human form of life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Mānuṣam. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, tad apy adhruvam. Although it will not stay, but it is arthadam. Arthadam means you can achieve the highest goal of life.

What is that highest goal of life? The highest goal of life is not to have a skyscraper building constructed in my life or have big balance in the bank. No. That is not highest goal of life. The highest goal of life is indicated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is also statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Persons who are very much attached to the external world, durāśayā bahir-artha… This external world is called bahiraṅgā śakti, the external energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So here it is just like mirage, just like people…or the not people, animal, running after water in the desert. In the desert, there is some reflection of heat, and the animals think there is water. And they run after water, the water also going ahead and the animal also going ahead. In this way, when he is too much tired, he falls down and dies. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayam.

So this material world is not our actual place of happiness. We should understand this. And the human form of life is meant for that purpose. Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī, he appeared before Caitanya Mahāprabhu to solve this question, 'ke āmi', 'kene more jāre tāpa-traya'. That is intelligence. Intelligence means one should be inquisitive about his goal of life. In the Bhāgavata also in another place, the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva, that parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto. Abodha-jāto, everyone is born ignorant. So in ignorance, whatever you will act, that is our defeat; that is not our gain. The gain is only when you develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only gain in his human form of life. Otherwise, whatever you gain, that is lost. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply wasting time, time and energy. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that "My dear friends…" He was teaching his class friends who were five years old, and he said that durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. "Our duty is, so long the next death does not appear, we should develop our dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness." We should not wait. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja was given time, seven days. He was cursed by a brāhmaṇa boy that "Mahārāja, you shall die within seven days, bitten by a snake." So immediately, because he was emperor, so he understood that "I shall have to die." So he prepared himself. For seven days he tried to understand what is his relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. That is imitated at Bhāgavata-saptāha. But actually, Bhāgavata is not to be studied imitating Parīkṣit Mahārāja for seven days. No. In seven days we cannot understand even one verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, what to speak of the eighteen thousand verses. That is not possible. But it has become a fashion. Bhāgavata says, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā [SB 1.2.18]. It is not for seven days; it is for all the life. Parīkṣit Mahārāja had no time more than seven days. Therefore he finished the whole Bhāgavata hearing in seven days. The another instruction is that Parīkṣit Mahārāja had notice for seven days' duration of life, but we do not know whether seven days or seven minutes. It may be I am speaking now, immediately I can stop, because I am completely under the control of the material nature. You know perhaps that one big officer of Indian government, I think he was the Commander in Chief or something like that, he was eating in the feast in Japan, and on the table he died while eating. There was some trouble in the throat by eating fish, and some trouble was there, and he suffocated, died immediately.

So we cannot say whether we are going to live for seven days or seven minutes or seven hours. There is no guarantee. Immediately you can die. Therefore our duty is, before the next death comes, we must develop our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We must be very serious. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says,

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

We should take Kṛṣṇa consciousness so seriously, immediately, without waiting. And that is very simple also. If we simply understand the seriousness of the business, then we can immediately begin. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We can do it immediately. Immediately, without waiting for a second, and then Kṛṣṇa takes charge. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ.

So it is not very difficult business, simply we'll have to agree, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa. So long I did not surrender unto You. Now I immediately surrender unto You." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he sang a very nice song, that arpiluṅ tuyā pade nanda-kiśora. Mānasa deho geho jo kichu mora. He says that "Whatever I possess." First thing his mind, mānasa. Just like Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. First of all we have to give our mind to Kṛṣṇa because mind is the creative force by which we become entangled. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that mind is the enemy or mind is the friend. If you can create your mind your friend, then there is immense profit Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if you create your mind enemy, the mind will drag you in so many things, you will forget your duty and responsibility of human life. Therefore yoga system, practicing yoga means controlling the mind. Controlling the mind. But the easiest process of yoga system is that you simply think of Kṛṣṇa always, then the perfection of yoga.

Kṛṣṇa says it:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gataḥ antarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

He is the first-class yogi. Who? Who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa always within his mind. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process, chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, means to keep Kṛṣṇa always in mind. That is the perfection of yoga. And it is very easy. As soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you hear it, then your mind becomes locked up. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mānasa deho geho jo kichu mora. "Whatever I possess, my mind, my this body," mānasa deha geha, "and my home, my wife, my children, my friends," at least my wife, my children. Home means wife and children.

mānasa deho geho jo kichu mora

arpiluṅ tuyā pade nanda-kiśora

Nanda-kiśora, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is known as Nanda-nandana, Nanda-kiśora, Nanda-kumāra, so many, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa likes to be called like that. If you say simply "Kṛṣṇa," He is not so very satisfied. But if you call Him the son of Nanda Mahārāja, He is very pleased because the name of His devotee. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nobody can be His father. He is the original person. Anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Who can be His father? But when He appears on this material world, He accepts one of His devotee as His father, one of His devotee as mother, in this way. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa is very much satisfied when His name…, when He is joined with His devotee's name. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says,

mānasa deho geho jo kichu mora

arpiluṅ tuyā pade nanda-kiśora

Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. "Now You can kill me or You can give me protection, whatever You like. That's all right." Nitya-dāsa prati tuyā adhikārā. "You have got all rights upon me because I am Your eternal servant." This is called surrender. And Kṛṣṇa wants that because that is my constitutional position, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If we do that, it does not take much time but we attain the highest perfection of this Bhāgavata-dharma. That is wanted.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that yad eva. Yad eva, yathā hi purusasya iha viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam, yad eṣa sarva-bhūtānāṁ priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. He has particularly mentioned the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa is the original person of Viṣṇu-tattva. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So He is the origin of the three demigods, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Brahmā is born of Viṣṇu, and Śiva is born of Brahmā. Therefore… And Viṣṇu is born of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is the original person. Ātmeśvaraḥ, ātmeśvaraḥ viṣṇoḥ. Priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. Kṛṣṇa says that He is suhṛt. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. Kṛṣṇa says. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā [Bg. 5.29]. One should know that our best friend is Kṛṣṇa. And ātmeśvaraḥ, and He is the Lord of me. I am ātmā and He is Paramātmā, ātmeśvaraḥ. Therefore, ultimately… Now when there is danger, when there is danger, now we take care of our protection immediately. Ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet. Everyone is busy to protect himself. Why do we eat? Just to keep our body fit. And why do we keep our body fit? Because I can think nicely or I can realize myself. That is the purpose of keeping the body fit, not for eating. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi-dā. The real motive of life is to understand or self-realize. One has to understand what I am.

So we have to keep this body not for eating but for keeping ourself fit to understand what I am. That is the purpose of life. So here Prahlāda Mahārāja says first of all we can understand what I am. And when you understand, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7], "I am the eternal part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is self-realization, to understand one's own position, what I am. It is very simple. We have to accept it. The Bhagavad-gītā says that "I am…," that "The living entity is My part and parcel." In another chapter He says, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā, jīva-bhūtaḥ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. So this ātmā, I am ātmā, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Prakṛti. I am not puruṣa. I am not bhoktā. This is the self-realization. So Prahlāda Mahārāja explains that, that yathā hi puruṣasya iha viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam. Our only duty is to worship Lord Viṣṇu. That is the Vedic injunction, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja instructs that we should immediately engage ourself in satisfying Viṣṇu. That is the program of human civilization. Human civilization means one who accepts the varṇāśrama-dharma, because that is a program gradually one can understand his relationship with Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Here Prahlāda Mahārāja also says, viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam. Why Viṣṇu? That is explained here, that yad eva sarva-bhūtānāṁ priya, sarveśvaraḥ ātmā. Everyone is very much attached. Now suppose there is some fire incidents at home. A man will forget all his wife and children; he will come out immediately to save himself, because we love ourself very much. It is a fact. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. We forget. Sometimes it does happen, one man has come out when there is fire in the house. And after coming out, he is crying, "Oh, my son is left. Son is left inside." Why? Why you left your son? Because you think, everyone thinks, that "My ātmā is very dear to me. "And why ātmā is dear to him? Because the ātmā is the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Therefore, ultimately comes to the Supreme Lord. He is our dear, but we have forgotten. We have forgotten. Prahlāda Mahārāja reminds. Priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. And He is actually suhṛt, the best friend. Don't consider that here in this material world some friend is helping you or somebody is helping you. No. They cannot be suhṛt. They have got some interest. Here in this material world it is business. If I become your friend, it means that I have got some ulterior motive to take some benefit out of your favor. Therefore you flatter. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20], the same process is to worship the demigods. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāmais tais tair hṛta jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ.

So here in this material world, either you worship some demigod or worship some leader or worship some friend, the ulterior motive is that you want to get some benefit from him, that's all. Therefore he is priya. But Kṛṣṇa, when you speak of Kṛṣṇa, there is no such business. Just like you love your ātmā very dearly, your life. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the ātmeśvaraḥ, the sum total of all ātmā, therefore ultimately Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu is our dear. Not only that; He is suhṛt. Kṛṣṇa is always thinking. In the Upaniṣad also there is a verse that the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are sitting as friends on this tree, or body. The one is eating the fruits of that tree and the other is witnessing. So what business has God, Kṛṣṇa, to witness your activities? No, He has got business because He wants to take you back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore He is suhṛt. Ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. Nobody is better friend than Kṛṣṇa, He is always thinking how this bewildered individual soul can be brought back to home, back to Godhead. He personally comes, therefore, canvassing. Sarva-guhyatamam. "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, Arjuna, that you surrender unto Me. That is better." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He is canvassing door to door. He is coming from Vaikuṇṭha, from Vṛndāvana, to teach us how you can become friend of Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, how you can become mother of Kṛṣṇa, how you can become father of Kṛṣṇa. Here the jñānīs, they try to be equal with Kṛṣṇa, but a devotee can become the father of Kṛṣṇa. What is the value of equality? It is greater than equality. Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He accepts His devotee as father and He accepts his punishment also. Just like Kṛṣṇa accepted the punishment of Mother Yaśodā very willfully. He wants that. He likes that. Because everyone goes to God, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, and prays with adoration and respect. But Kṛṣṇa wants that one may think of Him as inferior to him. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was thinking, "He is my child, have to protect." Kṛṣṇa is giving protection to everyone, but Nanda Mahārāja is thinking that "I have to give protection to Kṛṣṇa." This is the devotee's position. So He is so nice friend that whatever enjoyment you want in this material world, that will break. If you have got a son, either the son will leave you or you have to leave your son. But if you accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, this is eternal relationship. You will never be cheated. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as friend, you will never be cheated. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as lover, you will never be confused. So therefore Kṛṣṇa is actually ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. Prahlāda Mahārāja teaching that, that "Just take to this Bhāgavata-dharma." Actually you want to love Kṛṣṇa, but by the intervening of māyā, you are loving something else. That will not make you happy. You just try to love Kṛṣṇa.

Then in the next verse he says,

sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā

deha-yogena dehinām

sarvatra labhyate daivād

yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ

That is a regular argument we meet everywhere, that if everyone becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then how this world will go on? How our maintenance will be earned? That answer is given by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that here in this material world, our happiness is in relationship with our senses, sense gratification. Suppose if I put one nice rasagullā, sweetmeat, in my mouth, my tongue tastes it very nicely a kind of sense gratification, so I think I am happy. Similarly, you can study the relationship with all other senses. Especially in this material world our sex sense, the happiness from the sex life is considered to be very high, and people are struggling hard for that happiness. That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Gṛhamedhi means those who are too much attached to this worldly life. Their point of happiness is sex life, maithunādi. But it is tuccham, it is very insignificant.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that even we accept that is happiness in relation to your senses, sense enjoyment, sukham aindriyakam… Aindriyakam means in relationship with the senses. He says, sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā. He is addressing his friends as daityā because they are born of atheistic family. Daitya and deva. Deva means born of Vaiṣṇava family, and daitya means born of demon family. So he is particularly addressing daitya. He is teaching among the daityas because preaching is required among the daityas. Those who are devas, they know; they do not require any preaching. They know that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The ultimate, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam, they know it. But the daityas who do not know it, their preaching is required. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is instructing, "My dear daityas, my dear daitya friends," that "you are busy after the sense gratification. That has become your only business, how to gratify the senses." Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām. Deha-yogena. So that your happiness has already been fixed up on the creation of your particular type of body. Just like a man is born or a dog is born. So according to the dog's body, he will have particular type of sense enjoyment. If one has got the hog's body, so according to that body, he will be inclined to eat stool. If you offer a hog one side stool and one side halavā, he will prefer to take the stool, not this halavā, because his body has been made for that type of happiness. Just try to understand; it is very scientific. The standard of happiness is according to the body you have got. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that this sense gratification process is already fixed up. You cannot increase it or decrease it. That is stated here. Sarvatra labhyate daivād. Daivāt means by the arrangement of the Supreme. That is arranged. Sarvatra labhyate, sense gratification. Now take for example the hog. He is also busy in sense gratification. He is eating stool and becoming fatty, and as soon as there is sex desire, without any discrimination he enjoys many she-hogs, never mind sister or mother. Because the life is so made that he will enjoy in this way.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja says that according to the body, your happiness and distress or enjoyment. We do not know what is our happiness. According to body, I think this is the standard of happiness. Somebody thinks that "By eating such-and-such thing, I will be happy," just like the hog. And somebody thinks "No, this is not." One man's food, another man's poison. So everything is food and everything is poison according to the body. One thing is poison for me, but the same poison is food for others. That is for enjoyment. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says that don't bother about that thing to satisfy your senses; that is already fixed up according to your body. Instead of wasting your energy in that way for so-called happiness, you just try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what is Bhāgavata-dharma. Just engage your energy. It is very nice instruction. People are busy all over the world for having a certain type of sense gratification. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Don't bother yourself for that. It is already there; you will get it."

In another instruction by Nārada, he says,

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido

na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ

tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ

kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā

[SB 1.5.18]

That tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido. Our endeavor, our energy, should be used solely and wholly for understanding what is Bhāgavata-dharma, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for anything else. It may be very revolutionary, but this is a fact. You cannot gain anything more than what you are destined, suffering and enjoyment. Tasyaiva. But you can try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That independence has been given to you. You can make your choice. Just like Kṛṣṇa asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. "My dear Arjuna, now I have given you instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Now whatever you like you can do." That independence is given to us. We may accept Kṛṣṇa or we may reject Kṛṣṇa. That independence is there. But actually our business should be to accept Kṛṣṇa, not reject Kṛṣṇa. That will make us happy.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction is very nice. We shall talk more next day. Now thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

711113LE.DEL

Pandal Lecture

Delhi, November 13, 1971

Prabhupāda: Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly coming here and participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I may inform our friends that His Excellency Mr. Jain is a devotee of Lord Rāmacandra. I was talking with him. So we are so pleased that you are associating with devotees.

'sādhu-saṅga', 'sādhu-saṅga'-sarva-śāstre kaya

lava-mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya

[Cc. Madhya 22.54]

The human life is meant for composing an association where devotees may take part, sādhu-saṅga. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes [SB 5.5.2]. Mahat-seva. Mahat means whose mind has been broadened, not crippled. Cripple-minded man thinks in terms of personal interest or society's interest or community's interest, nation's interest, or international interest. Even international interest is cripple-minded, because there are many planets. If we expand ourself from self-interest to family interest, from family interest to community interest, similarly, even you expand to the international interest, it is imperfect unless your interest is expanded up to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the Vedic injunction in the Ṛg Veda, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Those who are advanced in knowledge, their aim is, their interest is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. But people do not know what is his self-interest. That is indicated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇu. Everyone should be self-interest. But in this material world, being illusioned, being bewildered by the material energy, we are thinking our self-interest in terms of our particular type of education. Somebody is thinking that "Simply I have to maintain my body somehow or other." Little expanded, thinking interest of society, you go on. But they do not know that the self-interest must expand to Lord Viṣṇu. And that is explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja.

We are discussing this verse, that

yathā hi puruṣasya iha

viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam

yad eṣa sarva-bhūtānāṁ

priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt

Priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt, viṣṇoḥ, viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam. Our self-interest must reach up to the lotus feet of Lord Viṣṇu. That is perfection. Otherwise whatever interest we create, that is temporary interest and it will be finished and I shall create another interest. That knowledge is lacking in the modern civilization. We are interested in nationalism. That is very good. But we do not know what nationalism was in my past life and what nationalism will be there in my next life. That we do not. Therefore, Prahlāda Mahārāja says that interest should be to the lotus feet of Lord Viṣṇu as it is indicated, directed by the Vedas, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Unfortunately, somehow or other we have forgotten that interest. That is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, anādi bahir-mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva māyā tāra golay badhila(?). We do not know when we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, our self-interest. And because we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, therefore māyā, the illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa, has caught up us. Ataeva māyā tāra golay badhila(?).

So you are existing in this conditioned state of life fully under the control of māyā. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā, that is stated in the Śrīmad… Bhagavad-gītā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

Just try to understand. We are given a kind of machine, yantra, this body, a particular type of machine. Actually it is machine. It is a physiological machine. But the machine has developed by māyā prakṛti because I wanted it. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. Īśvaraḥ, the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramātmā feature, antaryāmī, He is situated in everyone's heart in my heart, in dog's heart, in demigod's heart, everyone. Not only in the heart of the living entity, but He is within the atom. That information we get from the Brahma-saṁhitā,

eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ

yac chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ

aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.35]

Eko 'py asau racayitum. One partial expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Govinda. The prime factor is Govinda. So in order to create this material world, He has expanded Himself by His one portion, which is known as Viṣṇu-tattva, Mahā-Viṣṇu. The Mahā-Viṣṇu is described,

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya

jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ

viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.48]

We are getting this information from Lord Brahmā, the creator of this particular universe, very authoritative statement by his realization. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning, the description of the Lord is given, janmādy asya yataḥ, tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. So, first of all He gave instruction, the Lord, janmādy asya yataḥ, from whom everything is emanating. Lord Brahmā is also emanating from Him. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. So how Lord Brahmā got Vedic instruction? That is answered, hṛdā. Hṛdā means through the heart. So the Lord is situated in everyone's heart-in the heart of the Brahmā or in the heart of the ant. Not only in the heart but also within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Paramāṇu means atom. So we do not know how many paramāṇus, atoms, are there. That is impossible to count. Even if you are able to count how many paramāṇus or atoms are there, still you cannot know what is the limit of God's expansions and qualities. So that God, Kṛṣṇa, is Vāsudeva, all-expansive. So He is sitting in everyone's heart and He is giving opportunity, everyone, whatever he wants to do. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is situated there, and He is so kind that the living entity, whatever he is wanting, the Lord is giving him. So this body is also given by God. It is made by the material nature, but it is given by God. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni. Just like we take a vehicle and travel. Similarly, we are wanting to do something, it doesn't matter what, and Kṛṣṇa as Supersoul, who is sitting within my heart, He is asking this material nature that "You give him such-and-such body so that he can enjoy whatever he likes." So therefore we are getting different types of body, and there are 8,400,000 species of life.

So this body, if you like, you can get the body of a human being, or you can get the body of a tiger, or you can get the body of demigod, or you can get the body of Lord Brahmā, or you can get the body of the microbic germ in the stool. This will depend on your work. This is going on. There are innumerable planets, there are innumerable universes, and the living entities are all innumerable, and they are getting innumerable types of bodies, and every account is kept. Now just imagine what is the government of Kṛṣṇa. And this is being managed, ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. This whole worldly affair is being managed by one Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. This information we get from the śāstras.

So our position at the present moment is we are desiring something. We know, every one of us know we have got different desires. Not that everyone has got the same desire. Why you have got different desires? And that different desires means different consciousness. That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā,

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir

ekeha kuru-nandana

bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca

buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām

[Bg. 2.41]

Those who are not fixed up, they have got different desires. And because they have got different desires, they are getting different types of body. And because they are getting different types of body, they are rolling on, wandering in different situation, in different planets. But one who has come to the right conclusion of life, he is called vyavasāyātmikā buddhir eka. Eka means that Lord Viṣṇu. When our desire will becomes fixed up in Lord Viṣṇu, then our life is perfect. But that we do not know. Therefore, bahu-śākhā anantāś ca buddhi avyavasāyinām. Because our mind, because our desire, is not fixed up in Lord Viṣṇu, we are manufacturing different desires, because mind's business is concoction, accepting something, rejecting something. This is going on. But by intelligence we come to a certain conclusion. So one who is above the activities of the mind, manaso parā buddhi, one who has learned how to use his intelligence, that art is called buddhi-yogam. Yoga on the platform of intelligence. First of all in the beginning, our platform is sensuous. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur [Bg. 3.42]. Material life means sensuous life. But those who are little above, they are on the mental platform-poetry, philosophy, mental speculation. Above this there is intelligence. That intellectual life required. That means we have to transcend the position of the sensuous life, we have to transcend the position of concocted mental speculation, we have to come to the intellectual platform. That intellectual platform is called brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī, when he approached Lord Caitanya, he very intellectually asked Lord Caitanya, 'ke āmi' kene more jāpe tāpa-traya: "Who am I? Why I am suffering these three kinds of material miserable condition of life?" This is intellectual platform. This is intellectual path. And when we exercise this intellectual path of our life, that is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi-yogam. Therefore, in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. The most intellectual person can become Kṛṣṇa conscious, not ordinary man. Why? Kṛṣṇa also confirms this in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

He is most intellectual, mahātmā, whose intelligence has been broadened so that he has understood Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva, as everything. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Very rare.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, although it appears to be very easy, but it is actually it is very difficult. But by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, it has been made easy. Otherwise it is not very easy. It is made easy in this way, that Kṛṣṇa says,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ant

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. The thing which is achieved after many, many births of intellectual activities, Lord Caitanya says, "Now this is the point. You catch up this." Kṛṣṇa also says, "You catch up this. Why should you wait for many, many births?" If it is a fact that after many, many births of intellectual exercises you have come to the point of surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says the most confidential part of knowledge is that "You surrender immediately unto Me."

So those who are actually intelligent, they take this opportunity and surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy if one accepts easily, but it is very difficult if one does not accept it easily. Otherwise it is very easy. Kṛṣṇa is canvassing that "You surrender unto Me." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. That is Kṛṣṇa is giving us the intelligence, buddhi-yogam. And if you surrender, then Kṛṣṇa says, assures,

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

[Bg. 10.10]

Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām. Satata means twenty-four hours. Not that I meditate for fifteen minutes and do all nonsense twenty-four hours. No. Satata-yuktānām. One should be engaged twenty-four hours in the business of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is possible. It is not that it is impossible. You can engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness twenty-four hours without any cessation, but you have to know how to do it. That is being taught in Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But you can do it. And as soon as you take to it, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Kṛṣṇa should be worshiped with prīti, love, not officially. Of course, in the beginning, we have to be officially. In the beginning, we have to act by the direction of the spiritual master, by the direction of the śāstras. But when you practice it by the direction of guru and śāstra, sādhu guru śāstra vā, then gradually you become attached to it.

As I have explained several times, this attachment stage can be achieved under certain process. As Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavān, says,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

Kṛṣṇa is teaching how you can develop your attachment for Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to take it. We have to understand it. So as soon as we develop this attachment, teṣāṁ satata-yuk… Attachment means just like you have got a lover or something lovable object; you cannot live without it. You are always searching, "Where is my lovable object? Where is my…" That is called attachment. That attachment as taught by Lord Caitanya, He says, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. This is the final stage of attachment. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching us that "I am feeling everything vacant." Why? "Being separated from Govinda." Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. This is the highest stage of attachment. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people how to become attached to Kṛṣṇa instead of māyā. We are attached to māyā. We have created so many things just arrangement for forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Anything we make here for sense enjoyment… (end)

711114LE.DEL

Pandal Lecture

November 14, 1971, Delhi

Prabhupāda: (prema-dvani prayers) Mr. Justice Rangarajan, Justice Misra and Lalaji, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Today, this evening, we are especially enlightened by the nice speech delivered by Justice Rangarajan, little describing about bhakti-yoga. Actually, we are discussing this bhakti-yoga for the last few days.

So bhakti-yoga is the sublime religious principle of the human society. The human society is not human society without sense of religious principle. Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the distinction of human society and animal. In the animal society, there is no religion. But in the human society, may be in any part of the world, there is some concept of religion, may be Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, Buddha's religion, Jewish religion, and so many others. But according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is a test of religion. The test of religion is how much one has advanced in his love for God.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

Religion means you must have peace of mind, tranquillity. That is religion. It is not a formality or dogmas. It is the ultimate goal of life.

So this Bhāgavata-dharma long, long ago was sometimes discussed by Prahlāda Mahārāja, a great devotee, a boy devotee, 5 years old boy, and he was a great devotee although born in an atheistic family. His father was a great atheist, Hiraṇyakaśipu. Hiraṇya means gold and kaśipu means soft cushion. That means complete materialist. The materialist want these two things, woman and money. So Hiraṇyakaśipu was very expert in this business. But fortunately he had a great son, Prahlāda Mahārāja. So this Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was in the womb of his mother, he had the chance of hearing about Bhāgavata-dharma from Nāradaji. You have heard that there is always fight between the atheist and the theist, or the demigods and the demons, sura asura. So sometimes there was a fight between the asuras and the devas. The asuras became defeated, and Hiraṇyakaśipu left the battle. So as it sometimes appears…, happens in the war, the wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu was captured by the demigods, and she was being taken away although she was pregnant. So Nārada Muni met on the way and he asked the demigods, "Oh, what you are doing this? You are taking away one pregnant woman? What is this?" So Indra replied that "We are not going to do any harm to the woman. But we are concerned with the child within his womb. Because that child is born of Hiraṇyakaśipu, he must be a greater demon. So as soon as the child is born, we shall kill it. Therefore, we are taking this woman." Then Nāradajī said that "This child is not an ordinary child. He is mahā-bhāgavata. So you do not try this attempt. Just release her. I will take her."

So Nāradajī is authority, so demigods accepted his advice, Vaiṣṇava. The demigods are also Vaiṣṇava. Demigods means there are two kinds of population all over the universe, daiva asura eva ca. One class is called daiva, devata, and the other class is called asura. So who is asura and who is a deva? Viṣṇu-bhakta bhaved daiva asuras tad viparyayaḥ). That is the definition who is the asura and who is a deva. Only the Vaiṣṇava, they are demigods. And who are not Vaiṣṇava or anything else, tad viparyayaḥ, he is a demon. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, asuri bhāvam āśritāḥ.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuri bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

The asuri bhāva is defy the existence of God. "Who is God? I am God." Hiraṇyakaśipu was a typical example of this demon. As soon as his son, five years old, he would chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he immediately object, "Why you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?" So that is the nature of the demon, to protest always against the theist or godly Vaiṣṇavas. This is not new. It is always there. This world is so made that the predominance of demonic principle is very much aggressed(?). Just see, even a father, a demon father could not tolerate the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra by his five-years-old son.

Therefore, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised,

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

[Cc. Ādi 17.31]

There will be disturbances. One who is going to engage himself in devotional service, he may be disturbed because that is the way of this material world. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that tolerate. How toleration? Tṛṇād api sunīcena, humbler than the straw on the street or grass. Everyone is walking over the grass, but it does not protest. Tolerates. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇuna. Prahlāda Mahārāja was typical example of this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's śikṣā. This Hiraṇyakaśipu father tortured Prahlāda Mahārāja in so many ways, but he tolerated. He tolerated. There are many other examples. Lord Jesus Christ, he was crucified. The only fault was that he was preaching God consciousness. Ṭhākura Haridāsa, he was Muhammadan, but he took to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and the Kazi… At that time, there was Muhammadan government. The Kazi called him, "Oh, you are so fortunate, you have taken your birth in Muhammadan family and you are chanting Hindu God's name?" So he replied, "Sir, what is the fault there? Some of the Hindus also take to Muhammadan religion. So what is the fault there?" "Oh, you are talking before me, you are protesting?" So he was flogged with cane in twenty-two bazaar, but he tolerated. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, don't think it is going very easily. We have to tolerate. Actually we are tolerating so many things, but we cannot stop it.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advice,

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

[Cc. Ādi 17.31]

The saṅkīrtana movement must go on. Despite all obstacles put before us, it must go on. That is determination. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. That is the instruction of Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ, unflinching faith. And the Vedas say,

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ

prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

[ŚU 6.23]

Through bhakti you can understand Vedas. Yasya deve parā bhaktir, bhakti, yathā deve tathā gurau. Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said the same thing:

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

[Cc. Madhya 19.151]

Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. This bhakti cult is not for everyone. It is meant for the most fortunate person, most intelligent person, bhakti cult. Kṛṣṇa said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So after many, many births cultivating knowledge, when it comes to the supreme platform, then he can understand bhakti. Then he surrenders himself unto the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja says…, this is the instruction of bhakti-yoga, I shall read a few lines.

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

yathā hi puruṣasyeha

viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam

yad eṣa sarva-bhūtānāṁ

priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt

sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā

deha-yogena dehinām

sarvatra labhyate daivād

yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ

Prahlāda Mahārāja, he could not get to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness because he was born in atheist family, guarded, well guarded, and father was always alert that "My son may not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." But he was taking opportunity in the school. So he was five-years-old boy, and his class fellows also of the same age. So he used to induce them, "My dear friends, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We have got a little girl, perhaps you have all seen, Sarasvatī, she was admitted in a school in Bombay. And because there was no Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting, she began to cry, "No, I shall not be in this school." Practical. There was (indistinct), she was organizing all the children to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they began something else, so she said, "No, I am not going to this school." So śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. This child must be executing devotional service in her past life. Therefore, she has got the opportunity, a Vaiṣṇava father and Vaiṣṇavī mother. And from the very beginning of her life she is becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja is advising his friends, "My dear friends." The friends were replying, "Now we are children, we shall play. Why you are asking us the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is the business of the old men." "No," Prahlāda Mahārāja said. "No, it is not the business of the old men. You should learn it from the very childhood." Kaumāram. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. The first thing is that human life is for cultivating dharma, religion. The other day I explained that dharma and religion is not the exactly synonymous. Dharma means which you cannot leave. Dharma, the example I gave the other day, just like sugar cannot give up the quality of sweetness. Similarly, the water cannot give up the quality of liquidity. The fire cannot give up the quality of heat and light. Similarly, every living entity has his original characteristic, which is called dharma. That characteristic is described by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is the characteristic. Svarūpa. Svarūpa means original constitutional position. That is called svarūpa. And mukti means to be situated in that original condition. That is the statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. That is mukti. As soon as you give up your artificial way of life and you become situated in your original position, that is called mukti. That is… In other words, mukti means brahma-bhūtaḥ. That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātma [Bg. 18.54]. When one realizes Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. At the present moment, we are jīva-bhūtaḥ. We are identifying ourself with matter, with this body: "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Christian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am black," "I am white." These are all designations. This is not my real identity. My real identity is ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul."

So Bhagavad-gītā says that

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

Without being brahma-bhūtaḥ, actual devotional life does not begin. It is not that by devotional service one… Of course, you can take both way. But according to Bhagavad-gītā, it is to be understood that anyone who has taken to this devotional service, he is already in the stage of brahma-bhūtaḥ.

māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

Mukti means to become transcendental to the three guṇas. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. So Bhāgavata-dharma is in the transcendental platform. It is not material. There are two kinds of dharmas: material and spiritual, because we are combination of matter and spirit at the present moment. So long I want to enjoy this material world or to satisfy my senses… This material body means combination of senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. So the platform where we are concerned with the senses, that is called karma, karma platform. Just like people are working very hard day and night in the city. The purpose is to gratify the senses. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. So that is karma. Then, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ [Bg. 3.42]. When you come to the activities of the mind-psychology, metaphysics, philosophical speculation-that is another stage; that is better than this stage, karmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has approved that out of many thousands of karmīs, one jñānī is better. And out of many thousands of jñānīs, one mukta is better, liberated. One who has realized that "I am not this matter, I am Brahman," he is better. He is mukta. Mukta means one… Brahma-bhūtaḥ, he understands. He no more identifies himself with these material activities. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu approves that out of many thousands of karmīs, one jñānī is better. And out of many thousands of jñānīs, one mukta is better. And out of many thousands of mukta, hardly you can find any bhakta.

Bhakta… So the position of bhakta is very sublime. This is transcendental position, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, this mukti is given very easily by introducing the saṅkīrtana movement. He personally writes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He wrote only eight verses, which is known as Śikṣāṣtaka, eight verses. And all the Gosvāmīs, they wrote volumes of books on these eight verses. He wrote only eight verses. So He says that by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, the first benefit will be ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is cultivation of knowledge. It will automatically come, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, if one chants offenselessly. There are ten kinds of offenses. If one chants this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra offenselessly, then immediately he becomes liberated. Nāmābhāsa, mukti. And when he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra in ecstasy, then he is in deep love of God. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He showed the example, He was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and was fainting, and He was crying. And He writes in His eight ślokas,

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda-viraheṇa me

He was feeling separation of Govinda, Kṛṣṇa, so intensely that He was thinking one moment as twelve years. yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. So these are mahābhāva. Great transcendental ecstasy can be achieved simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra or bhakti-yoga Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends. Kaumāra ācaret. Kaumāra means the age from five years to fifteen years. So in all schools and colleges this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra should be taught. If you actually want to advance your nationality, India, then you must take to this culture. That will glorify your country. You cannot compete the Westerners by technology. That is not possible. They are meant for that purpose. You are meant for different purpose. Your special advantage is that you were born in this land of Bhārata-varṣa after many, many births, after many, many pious activities. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore, says,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So still, although India is poverty-stricken, they say… Wherever I go, they take that I am coming from a very poor country. We are advertised in that way, because whenever our big men go there, ministers, for begging something. So we have been taken, accepted as the beggar's country. But in the Berkeley University, when one Indian student protested that I am spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement… The only protest was by an Indian student. He said, "Swamiji, what benefit will be there by spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?" In another place, a girl asked me, "Swamiji, what is God?" So I asked her, "Are you Indian? You should be ashamed of being called as Indian, because you are asking what is God. You are coming from India, the land of God, and you do not know what is God."

So this is our position. The land where Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared, just ninety miles from Delhi in Vṛndāvana-Mathurā, we are not concerned. I have seen it personally. I do not discuss…I do not want to discuss these things. But my point is that this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction,

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

This Bhāgavata-dharma should be taught to our children. There is no use of calling ourself that we are secular. What does it mean? Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If you have no dharma, then what is the difference between you and the animal? You must have. That is the advice of Prahlāda Mahārāja also. Prahlāda Mahārāja appeared some millions of years ago, and he was a five-years-old boy, Vaiṣṇava. He says, kaumāra ācaret prājñaḥ. Prājñaḥ means one who knows very perfectly things, prājñaḥ. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. There are different types of dharma, but he specifically mentioned dharmān bhāgavatān iha. Iha means in this life, in his human form of life. Why in this life? Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. This life, this human form of life, is very difficult to obtain again. You do not know what life you are going to accept next. There is no certainty, because when you die, then you cannot be puffed up that "I don't care for God, I am God." Then you are under the grip of the material nature.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

Then you cannot… You are caught up. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Then it will be just what kind of body you should have. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1], under superior administration. Just like in the government service there is service record. And according to the service record, one is promoted or degraded. Similarly, there is record in the God's accountant department, statistic department. Every moment, upadraṣṭā anumantā, God is within you, He is seeing all your activities. If you desire something, God will remind you. So that is good record. So all this record will be considered about your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye. It will be decided that "This particular or this individual soul, he has to accept such-and-such body." Daiva-netreṇa jantur. Then that soul is transferred to the father's semina, and the father injects the semina in the womb of the woman. And then in the first night, by emulsification of the two seminas, there is a form like a pea, and that pea grows into the body. This is the secret of different types of body.

So we do not know, we are not certain that what kind of body I am going to get next, but we will have one body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. As I am getting one type of body from another type… In my this life, I was a child, I was a baby, I was a boy, I was a young man, now I am old man. As I am changing my body differently-I was a small child, I can remember personally. When I was about 6 months old, I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister. She was at that time married, and she was knitting. I remember. I was seeing how she was knitting. I can remember. But where is that body? Then another body, another body, another body. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Similarly, when I give up this body, then I must accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. But that I do not know. That will be considered by higher authorities, daiva-netreṇa, exactly as I told you that the service record is checked by higher authorities and he is promoted. So how one can know where one has gone? We keep one man's statue, but we do not know where the man has gone, where the soul has gone. But we keep the statue as if he is staying there. This is called illusion. We do not know where my leader has gone, but I am worshiping the leader's statue on the street, and it has become the place for passing stool on his head by the crows, and we are worshiping. But when you go to worship in the temple, it is idol worship. We are worshiping the statues, but when you go to worship in the temple, "That is idol worship."

So Prahlāda Mahārāja, therefore, advises that this Bhāgavata-dharma education must be given from the childhood. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. Because durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. But if you take to this Bhāgavata-dharma, then there is no loss, there is no loss. Because Kṛṣṇa says that even if you cannot execute the Bhāgavata-dharma fully in one life, because we are not guaranteed… Guaranteed, of course, if we follow strictly as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa-how He appears, how He takes birth, how He disappears, why does He come, what are His activities-if you simply study these Kṛṣṇa activities, then the result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. This is Bhāgavata-dharma. Therefore, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, being compassionate to the all fallen conditions of this age, He said that

yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

He says that "On My order, every one of you, especially Indians, you become a guru on My order." So "I am a fool, how can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu says āmāra ājñāya, "You simply carry out My order." There is no difficulty to become a guru if you simply carry out without any adulteration the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What is that order? That is not very difficult. Because He says yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Anyone you meet, you simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That is Bhāgavata-dharma. What Kṛṣṇa has said. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Mad-yājī, mad-bhakta. So Kṛṣṇa says… This is kṛṣṇa-upadeśa. He has given upadeśa in the Bhagavad-gītā in many ways-karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga. But His special instruction is, the most confidential instruction is, He said to Arjuna, "Because you are My friend, therefore I am giving you this most confidential instruction." What is that? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the confidential instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā.

So it is not difficult. You haven't got to manufacture a religion. Because you cannot manufacture religion. That is not possible. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like the state can give you law; you cannot manufacture law. Similarly, any ordinary man, he cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is religion. So this religion, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], directly spoken by the Supreme Lord. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends this. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also does not give any manufactured religion. This Caitanya cult is not a manufactured religion. It is also following. This is the process of religion. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We have to get the religious principle by the disciplic succession, not that I become an authority automatically and I manufacture religion. That is not religion. So Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised that "Simply instruct what Kṛṣṇa has said." Kṛṣṇa has also said the same thing, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. "Anyone who is engaged in preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā, no one is dearer to Me than he." [break] …in preaching… [break] That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult. He says, marma-hatāṁ karotu vā adarśanān: "You just break My heart by not being visible." The Vaiṣṇava devotees, they are not very much anxious to see God. They know, "Why God shall come to me? He is so busy, He has got so many business. Let me do my duty." The Gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana… Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, as I repeated the śloka, govinda-viraheṇa me. He was simply feeling separation. He never said that "I have seen God." He never said. Similarly, Gosvāmīs, the ṣaḍ-gosvāmīs, they are also following the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Simply searching out, "Where Rādhārāṇī? Where You are? Where the Lalitā, Viśakha, where you are? Where is Nanda-sūna, the son of Mahārāja Nanda, Kṛṣṇa? Where You are all?" Śrī-govardhana-(kalpa)-pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. "Are you near Govardhana Hill or on the bank of Yamunā?" But they never said, "I have seen Kṛṣṇa." They never said. Not that, "Oh, last night I saw, Kṛṣṇa was dancing." Not cheap devotee. Be great, follow. Just like Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says,

ei chaya gosāñi yāra, mui tāra dāsa

tāṅ' sabāra pada-reṇu mora pañca-grāsa

Another place he says,

rūpa-raghunātha-pade ha-ibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala-pīriti

These Gosvāmīs, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, liberated devotee, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they teach us how to worship Kṛṣṇa in separation, feelings of separation.

he rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ

śrī-govardhana-(kalpa)-pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ

ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair mahā-vihvalau

Just like mad after God, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa?" This is called Bhāgavata-dharma.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

711120LE.DEL

Pandal Lecture

Delhi, November 20, 1971

Prabhupāda: This flower is made by Kṛṣṇa, so beautiful, so aromatic, let me offer it to Kṛṣṇa. The same flower, you can become sensuous, and you can give service to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is nothing to be invented. Everything is there. Simply you have to change your consciousness. If you do not do that, then it is maya. Then Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa has given you all facilities. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61], He is there within your heart. He knows what is your purpose of life. You cannot hide from Kṛṣṇa anything you desire. If you desire Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa gives you intelligence, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. "Yes, take this intelligence, you will come to Me." Yena mām upayānti. But if you desire to enjoy this material world, then He will give you facility, different types of body. If you think that "I shall eat fresh flesh and fresh blood," "All right, you become a tiger. Why you are desiring? I give you all facility. You have got nails and teeth, and you just enjoy." Kṛṣṇa gives you that enjoyment. If you don't discriminate what is your food, whatever you like you eat, all nonsense, "All right, you become a hog. Eat up to the stool." And the stool… The body is made so that the hog will like to eat stool. That is said by Prahlāda Mahārāja, deha-yogena dehinām. The material enjoyment is given facility by Kṛṣṇa by a particular type of body. Deha-yogena dehinām. So this is going on.

Now here is the chance, that human form of body. Now you have got discrimination, you can understand because your consciousness is advanced. Now you can make your choice whether you want to continue this repeated birth and death in different species of life or you want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your discretion. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says,

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

Very nice instruction. "My dear friends," durlabham, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, "this human form of body is very, very rare to achieve. Now we have got it. Therefore, let us begin Kṛṣṇa consciousness from very childhood." That is the Vedic system. From the very childhood, a brahmacārī is given Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that in future his life becomes perfect. What is that perfect? He knows Kṛṣṇa by Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly. And what is the result? If one knows Kṛṣṇa perfectly, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], then after giving up this body, he does not come again back to take another material body, and he goes back to home.

mām upetya (tu) kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

[Bg. 8.15]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific, based on Vedic knowledge. And it is so perfect that we are actually seeing that anyone who is taking this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, he is feeling how happy he is. I am getting thousands of letter from Western countries, from my disciples, how much transcendental feeling they are enjoying. So I do not wish to take much of your time. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be injected from the very beginning of life, from childhood. So here our Honorable High Commissioner of Canada is present, His Excellency. So I request that you have come to our country, please try to understand this philosophy. And so far I have traveled in your country… I have traveled in Canada also; as you have already mentioned, we have got five branches-in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Hamilton, and Ottawa. So the boys are struggling, they are distributing literature, the books, and I am getting very encouraging report, many young men they are coming. It is a very scientific movement. So I would request you to inform your government to give these boys who are struggling to inject this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in your country all facility. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-

lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam

lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.29]

Govinda, the Lord. Go means the cow, and go means the senses, and go means the land. So Kṛṣṇa, the reservoir of all pleasure, especially gives pleasure to the senses. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. So our senses are there. You cannot stop the activities of the senses. Yoga indriya saṁyama. The purpose of yoga is to control the senses by observing the regulative principle, yama-niyama, then practicing a particular type of sitting posture. It is somehow or other mechanical, because those who are grossly in the concept of body, they are recommended to practice this haṭha-yoga so that by this process his mind can be concentrated on Kṛṣṇa. Yoga indriya saṁyama.

So actually our indriyas can be controlled when they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Otherwise it is not possible to control the senses. You cannot stop the activities of senses. That is not possible. Because we are living entity, we have our senses, and it must act. In the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that you cannot stop the action of the mind even for a moment. And mind is the central point of our sensuous activities. Therefore, if you want to control the senses, then you have to learn this bhāgavata-dharma. Prahlāda Mahārāja therefore recommending, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. From the very childhood one should practice this bhāgavata-dharma. This bhāgavata-dharma means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. They have manufactured many other kīrtana parties, but the śāstra says śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. That is bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata comes from the word bhagavān. Bhaga means opulence, and vān means one who possesses. That is bhagavān. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Bhagavan. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The Absolute Truth is realized in three features-Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān. Bhagavān understanding is the last word in the understanding of the Absolute Truth, because bhaga means opulence. There are six kinds of opulences-wealth, strength, reputation, beauty, knowledge, and renunciation. If somebody is very rich, he is attractive. Everyone goes to this man. Sometimes we also go to rich man, "Sir, give us some money," because a rich man is attractive. But in this material world, nobody can claim that he has got all the riches. Nobody can claim. But Kṛṣṇa can claim. Kṛṣṇa says,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

Now, He is the enjoyer of all sacrifices. Now, try to understand that in this material world, there are millions and trillions of universes, and each universe there are millions and trillions of planets. And each planet, there are millions and trillions of living entities. Now if not all, some of them are offering sacrifices, at least the sober section, in all the universes, and Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ. Just imagine how much He is eating. And similarly, He is the proprietor. He says that sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29], "I am the proprietor of all the planets," sarva-loka. Not only in this universe, but also there are millions and trillions of universes. If we have to accept the verdict of the śāstra, the Brahma-saṁhitā says yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. In each universe, there are ananta, unlimited number of planets. So Kṛṣṇa claims that sarva-loka-maheśvaram, "I am the proprietor of all the planets." Then who can compare his riches with Kṛṣṇa? You can find out some rich man in this world, but they might have a several hundreds of factories or several hundreds of houses, but nobody can claim that "I am the proprietor of all the houses and all the factories on all the planets." That is not possible. That is being claimed by Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. And suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. We are establishing many humanitarian activities. Just like the other day our chief guest, Dr. Atmaram, was speaking that by scientific advancement we are trying to give food to the needy and cloth to the naked. That's all right. But Kṛṣṇa is feeding unlimited number of living entities, beginning from the elephant down to the ant. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He is friend of everyone. As friend, He is sitting in the heart of all living entities. He is sitting in your heart, He is sitting in my heart, He is sitting in the ant's heart. The ant has also heart and the elephant has got also heart. Sometimes we find an insect exactly like a full stop. You have got experience. Sometimes when you open your book you find. They are called bookworm, they're very small, but it is moving. And because it is moving, from biological study we must conclude that it has got a heart. Even we do not know about biology, but Kṛṣṇa said that īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So, therefore, there must be some heart. We cannot perceive. We cannot see even the whole figure of that insect, and what to speak of study what kind of heart it has got. But we understand Bhagavad-gītā…, from Bhagavad-gītā that there is heart even in the smallest insect, in the microscopic germ, there is heart. So He is sitting in everyone's heart and He is supplying the necessities of that smaller creature or the biggest creature. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29].

So when we understand Kṛṣṇa in that way, that is understanding tattvataḥ.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

If we understand Kṛṣṇa superficially, that is not tattvic understanding. The tattvic understanding are in truth. You can get information from the Vedas what is Kṛṣṇa, or from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is the cream of all Vedas. Sarvopaniṣada gāva. Vedas, and the topmost part of Veda are the Upaniṣads. There are a hundred eight Upaniṣads, of which Īśopaniṣad is the topmost. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. So we have to understand Kṛṣṇa from this Vedic literature, tat vijñāna(?). And to understand the Vedic literature, we have to approach a person who has actually assimilated the purpose of Vedas. Kṛṣṇa also said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The purpose of studying Vedas is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Or in other words, if anyone has understood Kṛṣṇa, he has studied all the Vedas.

So this analytical study of Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, is called bhāgavata-dharma because bhāgavata…, bhāgavata śabda. And from bhagavata, bhāgavata [long "a"]. Bhābat(?). So bhāgavata-dharma means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends that from the very childhood,

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

These instruction of Prahlāda Mahārāja is very important, very important, and we are trying to spread this bhāgavata-dharma all over the world. And people are very happy to receive it. Unfortunately, this bhāgavata-dharma was not explained in the Western countries. I do not wish to discuss, but at the present moment, because this bhāgavata-dharma as recommended by Prahlāda Mahārāja is being preached all over the world, they are appreciating very much the glories of India. So as recommended by Prahlāda Mahārāja, this study of Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa should be introduced in the schools and colleges. I wanted to speak to the Vice Chancellor, and I expected him today, but he did not come. This is our unfortunate. I do not know why he avoided, but never mind; you try to understand. Don't spoil your children. The modern educational system without any knowledge of Bhagavān, I may tell you frankly, not only in India, everywhere, they are practically slaughterhouse. Because in our country, it is a different thing; at least we have got the Vedic culture at home if it is not in the schools. But in other countries, because there is no bhāgavata-dharma culture, the students, although they are provided with ample opportunity for education, the nicest educational system, nice building, nice facilities, everything nice, unfortunately the products are coming out frustrated, confused young men, and some of them are called hippies. They are educated. They are coming from very nice aristocratic family. In Western countries, in comparison to our country, every home is aristocratic. At least their standard of living is so high. So what we call aristocratic, that is a common affair. So this mishappening is going on all over the Western countries. Some of them are joining us, but this is the problem. The Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. This is very, very important message. We should be careful to educate our sons, our boys, with bhāgavata-dharma from the very beginning of life. That was the Vedic system. Therefore, in the first twenty-five years of life, the children were sent to gurukula for learning this bhāgavata-dharma.

So the educational system should take very seriously if at all they want to make their country nice, not varṇa-saṅkaraḥ. Strīṣu duṣṭāsu varṇa-saṅkaraḥ bhaviṣyati. This Vedic culture is so scientifically made. Just like according to Vedic culture, the women are instructed or trained up to become very chaste, very chaste. Only one husband. Why? That is explained: strīṣu duṣṭāsu varṇa-saṅkaraḥ bhaviṣyati. If women do not remain chaste, then unwanted population will come out. That is called varṇa-saṅkaraḥ. Varṇa-saṅkaraḥ means unwanted population. Actually all over the world this is happening, and therefore, the problems of the world becoming very serious and grave. So these are all scientific proposals. The educational system must be reformed. Not that godless, no education, secular government, no education of God in the schools and colleges. This is not a very good proposal. Here we get authoritative statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja. He is one of the mahājana. Our process is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We have to follow the footsteps of great personalities. That is our method. We don't manufacture our own way of living. We simply follow the great personalities. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ. You cannot come to the right conclusion simply by argument. You may be very good arguer; another comes better arguer than you. So simply by argument, you cannot come to the conclusion. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā.

Now, there are Vedas, four Vedas-Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, Yajus Veda, Ṛk Veda. And there are Upaniṣads, the Vedānta-sūtra, the Purāṇas, Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata-there are so many things. That is in India. And outside India or outside Vedic culture, there are many scriptures. Therefore it is said, śrutayo vibhinnā. There are innumerable Vedic scriptures. So we cannot come to the conclusion what is right or wrong, because sometimes you will find contradiction from one… Of course, there is no contradiction, but because we are not advanced in knowledge, sometimes we will find contradiction. Just like in India there are two classes of transcendentalists: the impersonalist and the personalist. That is not contradiction. The Absolute Truth is both impersonal and personal, but somebody is stressing on the impersonal point of view and somebody is stressing on the personal point of view. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know what is the meaning of impersonalism and what is the meaning of personalism. We take it for understanding, as it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The Absolute Truth is simultaneously Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. It is simply different stages of understanding. In the first stage, it is Brahman realization. In the second stage, it is Paramātmā realization. And at the last stage, it is Bhagavān realization.

So it is a great science. Bhāgavata-tattva vijñānam. It is not that you can create your Bhagavān by concoction, imagination. Just like the Māyāvādī philosophers say that sādhakānāṁ hitvārthāya brahmaṇo rūpa-kalpanaḥ(?): for the benefit or for the facility of the neophyte progressing in the spiritual knowledge, we have to imagine some form of the Brahman. That is not the fact. We do not find these things in the Vedic literature. We find in the Vedic literature that the Absolute Truth is realized in three features-Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. The substance is one, but according to our capacity, we understand differently. Just like example. If you see a great mountain, say Himalayan Mountain. Just like the other day when I was coming from Calcutta to Delhi, the Himalayan Mountains were seen from the plane, and it appeared just like a great city. But that is my shortage of vision. I cannot see what is Himalaya. Similarly, as we see imperfectly the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place, similarly, when the Absolute Truth is realized by the speculative process, he can simply understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by His effulgence as impersonal. And if you make further progress, then we can see… The same example. We are seeing the Himalayan Mountain from a distant place but if we make further advance, further, nearer, we see different thing. And when actually in the Himalayan Mountain, the thing is altogether different. Similarly, when you understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead from distance… Just like you cannot understand the sun globe from here. Although sunshine is light, sun globe is light, still we cannot understand what is sun globe from distant place.

So these are the statements in the śāstra about bhāgavata-dharma. Not that we accept Kṛṣṇa blindly as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is a science. Bhāgavata-tattva vijñānam. But this vijñāna, this scientific knowledge, is understandable not by your imperfect speculation. You have to accept the proper method of understanding. That method is called bhakti. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa simply by speculation. That is not possible. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa simply by meditation. That is also not possible. If you actually seriously want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to take the process of bhakti. Jñāna-vairāgya yuktayā [SB 1.2.12]. Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. There is a statement, the Absolute Truth can be understood by bhakti, and that bhakti received through the aural reception of your ear. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that if you want to know a saintly person, you try to understand him by your ear, not by the eyes. You cannot understand a saintly person by staring your eyes, "Let me see what kind of…" No. That is not possible. Therefore śāstra says, bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. You have to understand the Absolute Truth by devotion. At the same time, śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta means taking information by hearing from the śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭhaṁ guru [MU 1.2.12], by hearing from the right source and with bhakti. Bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. This is the process.

In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same process is recommended.

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

Kṛṣṇa does not say that you become a sentimental devotee. These European and American boys, they are dancing not by sentiment. That is actual transcendental ecstasy. Therefore, it is so nice. You cannot expect this dancing from a professional man. That is not possible. Professional man, his aim is money, and their aim is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Therefore, to learn bhakti, the process is śruta-gṛhītayā. You have to receive the perfect knowledge from the Vedas and understand what is bhakti. Our gosvāmī, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, he says that,

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-

pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir

utpātāyaiva kalpate

[Brs. 1.2.101]

One who accept bhakti-mārga without reference of this śruti and smṛti and pāñcarātrikī-vidhi… Śruti means the Vedas, and smṛti means the Purāṇas or Mahābhārata, Bhagavad-gītā. They are called smṛti. And pāñcarātrikī-vidhi, that is given by Nārada Muni, because he is the great authority in the science of devotional service. Vyāsadeva is his disciple. Prahlāda Mahārāja is his disciple. He has got great, great disciples who are in the bhakti line. And therefore he has given the pāñcarātrikī-vidhi. In the pāñcarātrikī-vidhi, it is said that you have to be free from the designation. Designation. You have to forget yourself that you are Hindu, you are Musselman, you are Sikh or you are Christian. These are all designations. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You have to purify. Don't be contaminated by any type of religion which is made by man. Real religion is made by God.

So you try to understand what is God and try to understand what sort of religion he has given. So that you can receive by bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhi [Brs. 1.2.101]. Vidhi, a regulative principle. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam, that what are the pāpas, sinful life? The śāstra says, striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ [SB 1.17.38]. These four things are the four pillars of sinful life. What are these? Avaida stri-saṅga: womanly connection which is illegitimate. You cannot have any connection with woman without being married. That is Vedic instruction. Otherwise, what is the difference between animal and man? There is no marriage in the animal kingdom. But in the human society, never mind whether it is in India or Russia or China, there is marriage system in the human society, maybe methods may be different. Therefore, womanly connection, man and woman living together without marital connection, that is pāpa, sinful life. That is the injunction of the śāstra. Similarly, striyaḥ sūnā. Sūnā means unnecessarily killing the animals. Just like slaughterhouse. You cannot maintain slaughterhouse in the human society and at the same time you want peace. It is not possible. Every living entity is son of God. You cannot kill even an ant, then you dissatisfy God. Take for example just like a gentleman has got five sons, one of them is useless, doing nothing. But if the expert son says, "My dear father, your this son is useless. Let us kill him and eat," cannibal. Will the father agree, "Oh, yes, yes, this son is useless. You can kill and eat"? Time will come in this Kali-yuga when actually people will become what is called man-eater. Still there are existence man-eaters in Africa. So the human society is coming to that position. Like animal, they will eat their own sons and daughters. So therefore this practice, unnecessarily killing animal, is one of the pillar of sinful life.

Striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta. Pāna means intoxication. We are already intoxicated by illusion. Because we are in the material world, we are accepting false things. Just like this body. I am accepting I am this body. This is intoxication. I am soul, I am Brahman, but I am accepting this body that I am this body. This is already intoxication. And if you increase more intoxication, then where is the possibility of getting real knowledge, brahma-jñāna? So the pāna, intoxication, should be avoided. Animal killing should be avoided. Illicit connection with woman should be avoided. And gambling, speculation, Patavad(?), that should be eliminated, avoided. Then you get the chance of becoming pure. And without being pure, you cannot be engaged in the loving service of the Lord. The Lord is pure. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So you cannot approach Lord being impure. Even I do not indulge in illicit sex life or meat-eating or very much moralist, still I am impure if I think myself "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." These are also impurities.

So the bhāgavat-dharma means to become completely pure. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. And you cannot keep your purity without being in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, so many moralistic movement has failed. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Even one has got brahma-jñāna, even one is elevated to become mixed or amalgamated with the brahmajyoti, still he is not pure. That is the statement of śāstra.

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ

patanty adhaḥ…

[SB 10.2.32]

They will fall down. We have seen many sannyāsīs, they have given up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, but they are still coming to politics, also to social organization, welfare activity. When you have left this world as nontruth, mithyā, then why do you come again? That means they did not get the real relish of Brahman. That is stated in the śāstra, that vimukta-māninaḥ: falsely they are thinking that they have become liberated. Otherwise, their intelligence is not purified some way. Somebody is thinking, "I am Indian," somebody is thinking, "I am Hindu," that is impurity. Real purity is tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], "I am Kṛṣṇa's. I am simply Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa is mine, I am Kṛṣṇa's." This is purity, and this is the culture of bhāgavata-dharma.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja is recommending this bhāgavata-dharma. Kaumāram ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. So this human form of life is meant for cultivating this bhāgavata-dharma. And if you are missing, then we are committing suicide, ātmahā. This very word is used in the śāstra, ātmahā. So our request to everyone is that you try to understand Kṛṣṇa scientifically. Kṛṣṇa-tattva vijñānam. It is not a sentiment or philosophical speculation or fanaticism. It is not that. It is a fact. Now, one should have intelligence to understand, that's all. But the method is so simple that we are fortunate, we accept immediately the version of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66], then our life is successful immediately. If we accept this statement of Kṛṣṇa that "You simply surrender unto Me," and we do it, immediately we become relieved from this material contamination. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. You immediately become pure. And,

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

If you sincerely surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately you become immune from all sinful activities. And then as soon as you become free, yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpam, then all your pāpas, sinful activities, immediately vanquished, then you become eligible for serving Kṛṣṇa. Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. The sign is that he has no more duality. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he believes that Kṛṣṇa ekam, "Simply by serving Kṛṣṇa I will be successful." That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta,

'śraddhā'-śabde-viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya

kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya

[Cc. Madhya 22.62]

This is śraddha. This is actually śraddha, faith, not faltering, "I do not know whether Kṛṣṇa will be able to save me. Why shall I surrender to Him? Let me surrender to so many demigods." Kṛṣṇa says those who are thinking like that, they are hrta-jnanah. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23].

So our request is that the guardians who are present here in this meeting, they should organize a special school to give lesson to their students, to their boys, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, bhāgavata-dharma. There is vast knowledge behind this. They will be enlightened. Their life will be successful. So in this city of Delhi, it is a great city and very important city. There are very important men here. They should kindly consider this proposal that there must be a very organized school to understand this bhāgavata-dharma, just to teach their boys, and their life will be successful. It is the duty of the father and mother to see that "My son, this is the last attempt of coming into this material world." Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father and the mother to stop the repetition of birth and death of his son. The mother should consider that "My son came to my womb, and he has suffered so much while he was remaining within the womb. Now I shall teach my son in such a way that no more he is going in the womb of a material mother." That is the duty of father, that is the duty of mother, that is the duty of friend, that is the duty of guru. Gurur na sa syāt sva-jano na sa syāt pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. So save your children from the danger of repetition of birth and death, that is the real discharge of father and mother's duty.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

711213LE.DEL

Lecture

Delhi, December 13, 1971

(beginning of tape for many minutes is inaudible)

Devotee: Morning, December 13th, Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Dharma, I have explained, occupational duty. So long we have got this material body we have got particular type of occupational duty. We are preaching to the world not any occupational duty but we are preaching eternal duty. This occupational duty is in connection with the body. That is not eternal. Suppose this life I've got a body, human body, or brāhmaṇa birth, or a son in the Rockefeller family, and according to that body, I have got a particular type of duty, standard of living. Deha-yogena dehinām. But as soon as the body's changed, I get another body, the whole duty change. Now I may have a very comfortable body, American body, Rockefeller family body, but next life, according to my karma, we are preparing our next life. Suppose if I get the body of a dog, then my occupational duty will be (indistinct). Because according to the body the duty is changed. So these occupational duties they are not permanent. But I am eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. By the destruction of this body, I am not destroyed. I remain, I simply enter another body. I, as spiritual soul, I remain. Just like I'm entering different bodies in this life. I was a child, I enter another body. Just like this small child, Sarasvatī. According to the body, she is acting. She's acting sometimes nonsense, but we take it delight, because she is child. But the same nonsense if I do in another body, grown up body, that will be ridiculous. In this child body, she is naked, but people enjoy it. But when she is grown up and she is lady-like, she is young girl, if she becomes naked, oh that is ridiculous. So, here in this life also we see according to the change of the body, the duty is changed. The activities are changing. So, this body is changing, that's a fact. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Just like in this life we are changing different types of bodies, similarly dehāntara-prāptiḥ, another body. These rascals, they do not understand the simple reasoning. Simple logic they cannot understand, still they argue, "What is the proof there is transmigration of the soul?" Here is the proof. That this child, Sarasvatī, when she is a grown-up lady she'll not act like that. But everyone will accept her, Sarasvatī, the same character (?). Her father, mother, relatives, everything is there, Sarasvatī has got another body. So what is the difficulty to understand this logic? That the soul is immortal and the body is changing. What is the difficulty? Just try to understand, you have to preach immortality of the soul, transmigration of the soul. What is the difficulty? Simple logic. What is the difficulty? Can anyone say? No difficulty? Will you be able to convince others?

Nara-Nārāyaṇa: I think people will argue that just because a child develops to a certain stage, what is the indication that he will develop after that stage? In other words, if I go from birth, youth, old age, then what is to say that I am again going to youth? They will say, "What is that logic? How I will go again to youth? Simply I will go again and vanish away," or something like that. They do not know…

Prabhupāda: No, that example is given. Just like this garment I am using. So when it becomes too old torn or something, so I will throw it away. I take another. What is the difficulty? When this body I am growing or changing, whatever the Christians say, but when it is no more workable, I give it up. I take another. What is the difficulty?

Nara-Nārāyaṇa: The materialistic man will think, "Well, I am voluntarily giving up my clothing, but I'm involuntarily giving up my body."

Prabhupāda: Voluntarily, involuntarily, that is another thing. Just like a child does not know that his coat is useless, but mother comes and changes the garment. So it is changing, that's a fact. It doesn't matter whether you are changing voluntarily or involuntarily, that is not very important thing. You are changing, that's a fact. Yes?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What they will argue perhaps, materialists may argue that "We can see that Sarasvatī is changing from the time she was a little girl and now she is a little older, we have seen her both times, but at the time of death we have not seen the next body of anyone.

Prabhupāda: But why do you believe so much your rascal eyes? That is the answer. Do you think that your eyes are perfect? There are many types of seeing. Not that simply with glaring eyesight you can see. You can see what is Sarasvatī , you are seeing the body. What is Sarasvatī, do you know? So what you are seeing? You are seeing the body. So what is the power of your seeing? There is another body, sukavādī (?), subtle body. Can you see the mind? But everyone has got mind. Can you see intelligence? But everyone has got intelligence. So what is the power of your seeing? Why you are so much proud of your seeing, nonsense seeing?

Devotee (1): If our seeing is imperfect we can see the change of body but we cannot see change, the transmigration of the soul.

Prabhupāda: You cannot see anything. Your power of seeing is so limited that you cannot see anything. Therefore you have to see through Kṛṣṇa, through Bhagavad-gītā. You are seeing the sun, it is like a disc. But when you see through astronomy, then you will understand it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the power of your seeing? Why you are so much proud of seeing? This is nonsense. Why do you go to school? To learn how to see. Why you can sit down, anyone who hasn't got, never has gone to school and never taken an education, his seeing and a perfect MA, Ph. D. person's seeing, is that all right, the same thing? Then why you are proud of your nonsense seeing? This will be the answer. You have to prepare your eyes to see. You have these, these eyes have no value. Your argument on the imperfect experience of the senses has no value. Yes?

Devotee (2) (lady): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if a person is in a (indistinct) young body (indistinct) have another body.

Prabhupāda: Yes, every moment. That is the medical science. Every second we are changing body. We are changing the corpuscles of blood, therefore my body is changing.

Devotee (2) (lady): (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. It is just like it is said that you forward one step, when you see that the forward step is right place, then you take the other step. Like this. When you find this is solid, then you take it away, then you put again. It is like that. So at the time of death, as soon as it is settled up that this soul should migrate to such and such body, by superior. It is not in my hands. Daiva-netreṇa. Daiva-netreṇa means superior examination. That is called day of judgement in the Bible. Whether this soul is going to hell or heaven, that is the day of judgement. But they have insufficient knowledge, therefore they think that all the souls after death they lie down for perpetually. It is not that. Actually the judgement is there immediately and he gets another birth, either hell or heaven. Not that he has to wait for the day of judgement. Immediately the day of judgement is… It is does not linger, it is not ordinary court that you have to wait for your judgement for three years or… No, immediately. Immediately it is settled up and the soul is transferred to the father and the… That is material process, how the body will grow. That is also arranged by prakṛti, by nature, under the direction of the Supreme. Just like if you have to paint something, then you have to secure different colors, different… Similarly, the particular type of body the soul will get, how it is to be manufactured, that is also by superior intelligence. The soul is put into the semina of a particular type of father and that quality of the semina mixes with the mother's secretion, then that grows. This is the arrangement. Svābhāviki bala-kriyā ca. Svābhāvikī. We have to think how this body will be manufactured, but Kṛṣṇa is so intelligent, His potencies are so great that simply He shall do it-"This soul should get such and such body"-immediately it is manufactured and comes out. This is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. You cannot manufacture this. But under Kṛṣṇa's direction there are certain energies which can immediately manufacture. But the rascals say, "Automatically it is coming." Not automatically. There is brain, there is energy, there is discretion, there is judgement. There is all these things. Then it will come out with another body. Not blindly. The rascals, they see, "It is coming out blindly." No. How much the mechanism is there within the body that they are working so nicely? Two kinds of secretion mix and immediately they get energy. The mother is eating, from that eating the child is also eating, the intestine is connected (indistinct). How much mechanical arrangement is there? Can any medical science, any scientist, (indistinct) this is matter? Even this is matter, let them manufacture outside this body another body. No. Suppose you have to manufacture something, a small watch. That particular watch has to be manufactured. But Kṛṣṇa has created so nicely that two machines-one male machine, one female machine-and they're joining and so many machines are coming out. Not that each and every particular machine body has to be tackled (?). Kṛṣṇa has made so nice arrangement, His intelligence is so sharp, that the potency is there that one male machine, one female machine, and they are producing unlimited number of machines. You have to manufacture a machine, a car, in the factory in so many ways. This is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. How nice intelligence, how His energies are acting, so who can explain this? Therefore acintya. Acintya, acintya means inconceivable. So unless you accept Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable energy, we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. There is no possibility. Inconceivable, acintya. Everything is acintya. So, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet, this is the injunction of the Vedas, "Things which are beyond your thinking, don't talk nonsense, don't put nonsense arguments to understand it. Better accept it." Therefore you have to accept the Vedic knowledge without any arguments. That is knowledge, perfect knowledge. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. And one who has got a spiritual master, expert in the Vedic knowledge, then his life is successful. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Therefore you must approach a spiritual master in order to understand that science. Samit-pāniḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the injunction. These things, how you can calculate by argument? Therefore they are called nāstika. Atheist means one who does not believe in the verdict of the Vedas. That is called atheist, atheist. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta' nāstika. Bauddha, the Buddhists… Buddhists, although they accept Lord Buddha as incarnation, but at the same time we accept them as nāstika, atheist. How Kṛṣṇa becomes atheist? But that is Kṛṣṇa's concern, but we have to study what He is doing. One side He is acting as atheist, that is His policy. That is also explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24], just to teach other atheists, he has become atheist. Because he had to preach among other atheist class of men, He became an atheist, "Yes, there is no God. Now believe me what I say." "Yes, sir, I shall believe." But He is God. (end)

720218LE.VIS

Lecture

Visakhapatnam, February 18, 1972

Prabhupāda: …and participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is the oldest. From historical point of view, at least five thousand years old. When Kṛṣṇa introduced this consciousness, that is, in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra which took place at least five thousand years ago. And if we believe śāstras, then it is not only four or five thousand years but it is older than forty millions of years. Not forty, four hundred millions of years. Because Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. In the beginning, He told this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. And the sun-god transmitted this message to his son, vivasvān manave prāha, to his son, Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. The age of Vaivasvata Manu calculating, it is about four hundred millions of years ago. Then manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. Manu, he explained this yoga system to Mahārāja Ikṣvāku. Mahārāja Ikṣvāku happened to be the forefathers of the kṣatriya family in which Lord Rāmacandra appeared. So Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The system of Bhagavad-gītā, the yoga system explained in the Bhagavad-gītā was understood by the paramparā system.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo (viduḥ)

sa kāleneha (mahatā)

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

[Bg. 4.2]

Lord Kṛṣṇa says that in course of time, this yoga system has been lost because the paramparā system became broken. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I am initiating you to begin that paramparā system again because it is now, the link is broken. So I want to begin that system through you." So the question is why Kṛṣṇa selected Arjuna to explain this paramparā system? There were many learned scholars five thousand years ago, many Vedantists, many great sages. But Kṛṣṇa selected Arjuna, a military man, a gṛhastha, and dealing with ordinary things, fighting for his own interest. Why he was selected? That is also explained by Kṛṣṇa, bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3], "This is the only reason. Although you are not Vedantist, you are not supposed to be a great scholar because you are a military man, you are gṛhastha, but still I have selected you because you are My dear friend and bhakta." Without being bhakta, who can become Kṛṣṇa's dear friend? "So therefore, I am speaking to you this confidential." Rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam. It is very mysterious. The first thing is that without becoming a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, bhakta, and dear friend… Kṛṣṇa, we can establish our relationship with Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. There are five rasas. They are called śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa, and mādhurya-rasa. Of course, in this material world also we find these five rasas in a perverted reflections. Originally, it is between Kṛṣṇa and His devotee. So Arjuna was related with Kṛṣṇa in sakhya-rasa, as friend, a devotee as a friend. Anyone can become related with Kṛṣṇa. We have got our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa because we are all parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. Just like the father and the son is eternally related. A son may become rebellion to the father, but the relationship of father and son cannot be broken. Similarly, we are also related with Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other, that we have forgotten. That is our present position. That is called māyā. Māyā means when we forget our relationship with Kṛṣṇa and we establish so many false relationships. Now at the present moment, I am thinking "I am Indian," somebody is thinking "I am American," somebody is thinking "I am Hindu," somebody is thinking "I am Muslim." These relationships are all false, māyā. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says at the end, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is real relationship. That is our real position. That is real mukti. And in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is stated-mukti is defined-what is that? Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti means give up your false designation. That is mukti. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu begins from this mukta stage. Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa gave us information what is mukti. Mukti is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam, that is mukti. And Lord Caitanya, when he was instructing Sanatāna Gosvāmī, he began from this point: what is that real constitutional position of the living entity. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was asked by his disciple Sanatāna Gosvāmī that actually what I am? The exact Bengali verse, he says that grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita.

Guest: Ke āmi, kene āmāya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He… The first question was, "What I am? Why I am placed in this miserable condition of life in the material world, suffering three kinds of miserable conditions?" Grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita. He was prime minister of Nawab Hussain Shah, he was great learned scholar, and in Sanskrit, in Arabic language, a very respectful personality. But he is placing his difficulty to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "Ordinarily these people, they speak of me that I am very learned man. But actually I do not know what I am." That is our position. We are advancing in material civilization, in science, philosophy, and so many so-called religious principles. But actually we do not know what we are, what I am. Any scientist, ask him, "What is after death? What happens after death?" I think hardly any scientist will give you clear idea. That is not possible, because their basic principle of understanding education is wrong, dehātma-buddhiḥ, I am this body. Everyone is fighting. The Pakistani is fighting with Hindustani. Twenty years ago, there was no Pakistani. But due to this false identification of body, a section has become Pakistani. Similarly, long, long ago there was only Vedic culture. Five thousand years ago there was no other culture except this Vedic culture, Aryan culture. But later on, all these so-called system developed. The Christian religion, the Mohammedan religion, or the Buddhist religion, they are all later. Nobody can give history more than two thousand five hundred years. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at least if you take the historical reference of Kurukṣetra battle, it is five thousand years old at least.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu begins where Kṛṣṇa ended. He said to Sanatāna Gosvāmī that jīvera 'svarūpa' haya-nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109], the real identity of the living entity is that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa or God. That is our real identity. But we are identifying in so many ways. Not only am I identifying that "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am Christian," "I am Mohammedan," "I am so on, so on," at last, "I am God." At last… That is the last snare of māyā. These are all māyā, this false identification. And the last false identification, when I falsely say that I am God. This is going on. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa said, "You give up all these nonsense theories. You simply surrender unto Me and I will give you protection. I will give you protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Because anything done without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is sinful. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yam-karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. So either you act piously or act sinfully, you become bound up by the reaction of such pious or impious activities. But if you act for Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no such bondage. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a concocted thing. It is… We have got authority from the Vedas. We have authority from Kṛṣṇa. We have got authority from Bhagavad-gītā. We have got authority by the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, all of them, even Śaṅkarācārya, although we differ in some points with Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted Kṛṣṇa, bhagavān sa svayam kṛṣṇa, he has stated. Devakīnandana, he has specifically mentioned Kṛṣṇa, the son of Devakī and Vasudeva, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nārāyaṇa paraḥ avyaktāt. I think those who have read Śaṅkara's comment on Bhagavad-gītā, they know all these things. So Kṛṣṇa is admitted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the bona fide ācāryas. And all scholars up to date, everyone, and confirmed by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. And in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Vedas,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

And Kṛṣṇa says also in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "My dear Dhanañjaya, there is no other superior being than Me."

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

Those who are devotees, they are not fools, they are actually a man in knowledge, budhā bhāva-samanvitaḥ. Bhāva-samanvitaḥ means that "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so great. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is bhāva. But this bhāva comes after many, many births. It is not so easy.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

Without knowing Kṛṣṇa in truth, not in false but in truth, the bhāva is not possible. And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bahunam janmanam ante

jñānavān mam prapadyante

vasudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

That mahātmā which are…, who has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, su-durlabhaḥ, it is very rare. To become kṛṣṇa-bhakta, koṭi (indistinct). Muktānām api siddhānām, koṭi (indistinct). That is the verdict of the śāstra. And Kṛṣṇa also said it is very, very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa Himself as Lord Sri Caitanya, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is distributing Kṛṣṇa. He is distributing Himself. Therefore, it has become so easy that these foreigners, these Europeans and American boys, they are not very advanced in age, all young men. All my students and followers in Europe and America, they are ninety-nine percent all young men, young girls. They are not old, rejected persons. They are the flowers of the country. They have joined this movement, and they have taken it seriously. Seriously in this sense that whenever a body comes to me for becoming my disciple, my first principle is that you must give up illicit sex life. You must give up meat eating, fish eating, egg eating, all this nonsense. You must give up gambling. You must give up all kinds of intoxication up to the point of drinking coffee, tea, and smoking. They give up. Therefore, they have taken seriously. Why seriously? These young boys, they have got so many desires in their heart, still they are taking to it, it is Lord Caitanya's mercy. It is Lord Caitanya's mercy because they are following the principles of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. He established Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but rascals and fools began to imitate Him and decry Him. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because He came as human being, so many persons represented that "I am God, I am Kṛṣṇa, I am this," no. God is one. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Nobody can become greater than God or equal to God. Therefore, God's another name is asamaurdhva, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Nobody can be equal with God, nobody can be greater than God. Everyone must be… Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa āra saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142], that is the statement in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. God is only one, Kṛṣṇa, and everyone is servant. Of course, God's servant and God, there is little difference. Because sometimes servant has got greater power than God, that is different thing. But actually nobody can be greater than God, nobody can be equal to God.

So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are not manufacturing anything. We simply place it that here is Kṛṣṇa, you are searching after God.

When I first went to America, they were speaking that God is dead. Even church, in the church, the priest in the church, they were sermoning that God is dead. But when I began chanting in the Tompkinson Square alone underneath a tree, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, these boys and girls began to assemble. So next day there was a big publicity in a paper with my picture and all this crowd that they say that "We thought God is dead, but here we see the Swamiji has brought God again in his kīrtana, in his chanting." They admitted. The New York published in all their papers. So God cannot be dead. Not that everyone can be God. God is one, and that is Kṛṣṇa.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

These are the Vedic authorities accepted by the ācāryas. Therefore, it has become easy for me to convert so many boys and girls in the foreign countries. Not only Christian, Jews, but there are many Mohammedans, Africans. In Africa also we have got branches. And recently I went to Africa, the Africans are also chanting exactly like these European and Americans. So this benediction, this foretelling of Lord Caitanya is actually going to be fulfilled.

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grama

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

So my request is that it is experiment that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can be spread all over the world and there are many, many customers still awaiting. So if we actually want to do welfare to the people of the world, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata bhumite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So India, India at least, those who have taken birth as human being, never mind what he is, he has got special privilege. This land is called puṇya-bhūmi. A not ordinary living entity can take birth in this land, Bharata-varṣa. We have got this opportunity. And according to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, if we take advantage of the Vedic literature, Veda, Purāṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, anādi bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela, ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karilā. These Veda Purāṇas are meant for the human being. We should study these Veda purāṇas and know what is what, what is God, what I am, what is this world. In this way, we must fructify, make our life successful, and then preach this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

It is not very difficult. Anyone can do provided he does not make the mistake adulterating the statements of Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are adulterating, interpreting in a different way this Bhagavad-gītā, they are very mischievous. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa has already declared, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Those who are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, they have been described by Kṛṣṇa Himself as Duṣkṛtinaḥ, mischievous. Narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. Mūḍhā, asses, rascals. And if somebody says… We find so many learned scholars, they do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then what is their position? Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā." They are learned, so-called learned, but their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. So this is the essence of Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. To understand Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everyone's heart. The Caitanya-caritāmṛta kar says,

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Just like we see the child, three years old child, she is dancing in ecstasy. We have got many children like that, they are chanting. There is no need of higher education to understand. Simply give oral reception to this transcendental vibration. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. This hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana is not this material vibration like radios and television. It is imported from the Goloka Vṛndāvana. Therefore, if we are pure, if we chant this vibration, immediately we will be touching Kṛṣṇa. Immediately. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense… There are ten kinds of offenses. Apart from that offenses, if you simply chant, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], immediately your heart will be cleansed of all nasty, dirty things. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanam. And you will get immediately freed from this.

Just now one of my students was speaking to me before coming to this that somebody was asking him, "How you are free from all anxieties?" They see. One priest, and… As I was traveling from Hawaii to…, no, from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one gentleman-he is a priest-he asked me, he began to talk in the airplane for at least half an hour. He said, "Swamiji, how is that your disciples look so bright faces?" Yes, they are bright faces. One priest in Boston, he regretted, he issued regret that "These boys, they are our boys, they are mad after God but we could not give them." So this is practical. Why practical? Because we are following the principles. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Bhava-mahā, immediately, the second you will start it, as soon as you go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, immediately you become free from… Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni. Everyone is… Material existence means full of anxieties. That is material existence. And Prahlāda Mahārāja was asked by his father, "What best thing you have learned, my dear boy?" He said that "If you want to cut down your material anxiety, then you must surrender unto the Lord." Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5], you must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So there are evidences, there are gurus, there is no scarcity of facility, it is very simple, and there is no loss. So our request, our only appeal to the people is that you just follow the principles laid down by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalaṁ

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

[Cc. Ādi 17.21]

You cannot execute all expensive yajñas or you cannot meditate, that is not possible. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum [SB 12.3.52]. That meditation was possible in the Satya-yuga, kṛte. And tretayaṁ yajato makhaiḥ. And costly performance of sacrifices was possible in the Tretā-yuga. And dvāpare paricaryāyām. In the Dvāparā-yuga, it was possible to construct costly temples and worship the Deity there. But in the Kali-yuga, kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt. Kali, in the Kali, this age, you have to simply take this process, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then all your desires will be fulfilled and your life will be successful. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause-end)

720219ad.vis

Speech at Gaudiya Math Center

Visakhapatnam, February 19, 1972

Prabhupāda: …His Holiness Śrīpāda Puri Mahārāja, we are very much thankful to the authorities of this temple for giving us shelter and associating with this holy function. You will translate? (Indian devotee translates throughout but tape is wound fast forward over these translations) Today's function is installing a different important incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Brahma-saṁhitā about the incarnation of the Supreme Lord, Govinda is mentioned primarily beginning with Rāma.

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan

nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu

kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavad paramaḥ pumān yo

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.39]

Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literature. Kṛṣṇa says Himself, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior authority than Me." There is no difference between Lord Rāma, Lord Kṛṣṇa, Lord Nrsiṁha, Varāha, They are all the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the explanation that a candle, the original candle, and you can lit up another candle, you can lit up another candle. Although the original candle you can say number one candle, but all the candles are equally powerful. There is no question. Because the second candle is enlightened from the first candle, it does not mean that the second candle is less powerful than the original candle. The one Supreme Lord, He expands Himself. Just like we can get one example. You can have your photograph and you can by photograph, you can expand yourself. Or you stand before hundreds and millions of mirrors, your body will be reflected, your bodily feature will be reflected. But the thing is, in this material world, that reflection of the body is not as good as the original body because it is dual world. But in the absolute world, such reflection, such expansion, they are as good as the original. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as we have sung just now, rādhā-mādhava kuñja-bihārī, He lives in His place, Goloka.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis-

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

Although He is always situated in Goloka Vṛndāvana for satisfaction of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. Gopī-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī. Kṛṣṇa, the original Personality of Godhead, is very busy to satisfy the gopī-jana, the gopīs and the cowherd boys. He does not go out of Vṛndāvana. But still, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He can expand Himself in such a way. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Kṛṣṇa expands Himself, eko bahu syāma. According to Vedic description, the first is viṣṇu-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva and jīva-tattva. The viṣṇu-tattva is called svāṁśa. There is no difference between one viṣṇu-tattva to another. Just like (indistinct) Rāmacandra, He is viṣṇu-tattva. Nārāyaṇa, viṣṇu-tattva. Balarāma, viṣṇu-tattva. So there is no difference in power. They are called svāṁśa, svāṁśa-vistṛra. And there are other vistṛra. That is called vibhinnāṁśa vistṛra, separated part and parcel. We are, we the jīvas, we are also expansion of Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. But we are a small, separated part and parcel, whereas viṣṇu-tattva expansion, They are full in power. The viṣṇu-tattvas are known as puruṣa-tattva, whereas the jīva-tattva is known as śakti-tattva. Jīva-tattva, as the Māyāvādī philosophers, they think that jīva-tattva can be God or jīva can become God. That is a false theory. It has no value according to Vedic scripture. In the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that

apareyam itas (tv anyāṁ)

tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām

jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

So this jīva-tattva is accepted as prakṛti, not puruṣa. There are two kinds of prakṛtis or energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One is called inferior energy, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ [Bg. 7.4], these material elements, earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, and false ego, they are inferior energies of the Supreme Lord. And the jīva-bhūta, that superior energy world, because the superior energy tries to lord it over the material energy. Just like we are jīvas. Every one of us trying to utilize the material resources of the material nature. We are simply trying. Actually we are not bhoktā. Bhoktā is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. [break]

…natural endeavor of the jīvas, living entities, to have control over this material world is false. Therefore, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is propagated to make them understand that their endeavor to lord it over the material nature will always be frustrated. An example can be given, one gentleman has got more than one wife. So if the wives quarrel between themselves that one wife will enjoy the another or predominate over the other wives, that is not possible. Similarly, prakṛti, we are prakṛti, we cannot control over the other prakṛti. It may be I am superior prakṛti but the other is inferior prakṛti. But that does not mean one prakṛti can enjoy the other prakṛti. Therefore, this enjoying spirit should be given up. This enjoying spirit is māyā. Māyā means illusion. The same example, one woman cannot enjoy other woman. The all women is enjoyable by the man, that is the nature. Similarly, we are prakṛti, jīva, and the material world is also prakṛti. So one prakṛti cannot enjoy prakṛti. The best thing is, best adjustment is that all the prakṛtis should be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. All these prakṛtis different wives of Kṛṣṇa or energies, they are struggling, unnecessarily they are struggling to become predominator. In this material world, everyone is trying to be predominator. One nation is trying to become predominator of other nations. One man is trying to be predominator of other men. One brother is trying to be predominator of other brothers. This is māyā. So everyone should give up the spirit of predominating. They should be willingly surrendered for becoming predominated by the Supreme Lord. Then you will be in peace (?). The whole world is suffering on this false predominating position. The human form different parties, this party and that party. But if you have got the same disease, same disease means spirit of predominating. At the present moment, it is going on. Take for example the Communist Party or Jana Sangha Party or this party or that party. They have formed different parties but the disease is there that "I shall predominate." So this party forming with the diseased condition that "I shall be enjoyer," there cannot be any peace. [break] Therefore, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said,

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas

te 'pīṣa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

The different parties, different mentalities, they are trying to predominate over other. They are blind themselves. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas. One blind man is trying to lead other blind men. There cannot be any benefit. They should know the ultimate goal of life is Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we shall all surrender unto Him. Then there can be peace and prosperity. Thank you very much. [break]

Devotee: Speech delivered in the Gaudīya Math, Visakhapatnam, February 19th, 1972. (break-kīrtana with Śrīla Prabhupāda leading) (end)

720219LE.VIS

Lecture at Caitanya Maṭha

Visakhapatnam, February 19, 1972

Prabhupāda: …for your kindly coming here and participating in the great Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] …in this meeting, the Commissioner of Income Tax…

Host: Sales tax.

Prabhupāda: Sales tax, present here, and he has asked me (loud applause) one intelligent question, which I, I was just going to answer. So I shall try to answer, here in this meeting, what is the objective of this movement. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a purificatory process. Consciousness is there, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, there are two kinds of consciousness. One consciousness is limited, another consciousness is unlimited. The unlimited consciousness is there in God, and limited consciousness is there in you, in me, and of all living entities.

Host: (calls out for silence)

Prabhupāda: Just like if I pinch your body, you feel pain. This is also consciousness, that somebody is pinching me. But if I pinch somebody else, you cannot feel it. Therefore, your consciousness or my consciousness is limited within this body. Similarly there is another consciousness which is Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, or universal consciousness. If I pinch your body, He feels, that I am pinching somebody, as Paramātmā. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-kṣetrajña, chapter (?). Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetra-jña means the knower of the body. Kṣetra-jña, jña means knower. So, Kṛṣṇa says that each and every body, there is a kṣetra-jña. I know about the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body.

Host: (calls for silence)

Prabhupāda: I think they cannot understand.

Host: (calls for silence and explains in local language that talk is in English among other things-break)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. Just like I am present in my body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, but Kṛṣṇa, because He is present in everyone's body, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61], He knows the pains and pleasure of all bodies. That is difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourselves, or God and ourselves. This is the test. Somebody is claiming that "I am God." How you can be God? You cannot know the pains and pleasures of others, but Kṛṣṇa knows. That is the difference between God and living entity. [break] So far consciousness is concerned, God is also conscious, we are also conscious, but our consciousness is limited and God's consciousness is unlimited. That is the difference.

Arjuna, when he was, he was taking instruction from Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says that this yoga system I explained to the Sun-god. And Arjuna inquired, "How is that Kṛṣṇa? Both You and me, we are born recently. How it is that You say that You explained to the Sun-god, long, long year, forty millions of years ago?" Kṛṣṇa answered this point, "My dear Arjuna, you are My eternal friend. You are always with Me. When I instructed the Sun-god, you were also present, but you have forgotten. I do not forget." That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. Kṛṣṇa knows everything. Whatever has happened in the past, whatever will happen in the future, and what is happening at the present, vedāhaṁ samatītāni, but we do not know. First of all this is, we should understand this is the difference between God and the living entity. [break]

The jīva are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. The example is given, just like the fire, big fire, and the sparks. The sparks are small, but, but in quality they are fire. They are not different from fire. If a spark of fire falls on your cloth, it will immediately burn. So the burning quality is there, either in the big fire or the small fire. Therefore, qualitatively we are one with God. The quality of burning. Another example is just like the drop of the ocean water. Chemical composition of this drop of ocean water is the same as the chemical combination of the big mass of water. So Kṛṣṇa, He is all-powerful. We are also powerful. Kṛṣṇa can create. We also can create. Kṛṣṇa can create, just like innumerable planets floating in the air. We can create a small, teeny aeroplane or sputnik flying in the air. You see. So the creative power is there, but there is far difference between Kṛṣṇa's creative power and my creative power. Kṛṣṇa, in the Vedas it is said,

parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate

svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca

na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇam ca vidyate

na tat-samaś cābhyadikaś ca dṛśyate

[Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]

The difference between Kṛṣṇa and me is this. That suppose, I am painting one nice flower. So I require the brush, I require the color, I require the intelligence, I require the time, so that somehow or other, in few days or in few months, I paint a very nice color fruit, flower or fruit. But Kṛṣṇa's energy is so experienced that by working His energy, many millions of flowers, colorful flowers, come at once. The foolish scientists, they say that it is the work of the nature. No. Nature is instrumental. Behind nature there is brain of God, Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he understands that this flower has not come blindly. These varieties of flowers, trees, and leaves, they are developing under direction of Kṛṣṇa, but His direction is so powerful it comes at once, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Just like a great scientist pushing on a button, electronics. Immediately something wonderful happens, but it is not that the machine is working, it is the scientist who is pushing on the button. Similarly, don't take, this is nonsense that nature is producing. No, nature cannot produce. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

[Bg. 9.10]

Mayādhyakṣeṇa, under My supervision the nature is working. Not blindly. This is not something ignorant. This is crude knowledge. Just like a child, he sees that aeroplane is running on the sky. He may think that the airplane is running automatically, by itself. No. The machine, without being touched by the pilot, cannot work. The machine may be perfect, very nice, but the pilot is required. So, at the present moment the civilization is trying to avoid God, the brain of God. That is foolishness. That is not fact. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

[Bg. 9.10]

So, the Kṛṣṇa conscious person sees behind nature, the hand of God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break]

There is one verse in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa,

eka-deśa-sthitasyāgner

jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā

parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktis

tathedam akhilaṁ jagat

What is this world, manifestation. This is explained. Just like the fire is existing… Just like the sun, sun is an emblem of fire, and ninety-three millions of miles away it is situated, eka sthāni sthitasya, but because it is fiery planet, its heat and light is expanded, and in that heat and light everything is being generated. Just like, we have got practical experience, in western countries where there is no sufficient heat and light, the trees and the flowers do not grow so luxuriously, because there is want of heat and light. And when there is snowfall, when there is no sunlight, everything, the trees become, without any leaf, dry, śuṣka. So, as it is the cause of the different leaves and flowers and fruit, is the heat and light of the sun, similarly, Kṛṣṇa has got two kinds of energies. That is also heat and light. That heat and light is spiritual energy and material energy. The material energy, not material energy, material energy is practically darkness, there is no light. The Vedic instruction is therefore that, don't keep yourself within this darkness, tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ. There is another sky. Just like in this sky, you will find it is darkness. Naturally it is darkness. Because there is darkness, therefore Kṛṣṇa has created the sun. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā. It is said,

yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ

rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ

yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

The scientists say that the sun is rotating in its orbit so carefully that if it moves from one side, the whole universe will be immediately turned into ice, and if it moves the other side, then immediately the whole universe will be ablaze. So carefully, yasya ajñāyā bhramati. The scientists have seen so far that the sun is moving very carefully. Neither this side nor that side, exactly in the orbit. So who has ordered, who has planned this orbit? The Brahma-saṁhitā informs, yasya-ajñāyā, by whose order the sun is rotating exactly in the orbit, yasyājñāyā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. "I am offering…" He is not struck with wonder by the arrangement in the material world, how the sun is moving, how the moon is moving, how the nature is working. He knows that there is a brain, big brain, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa also says,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

Anyone who has understood Kṛṣṇa rightly, in truth, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is budhā, he's actually in knowledge, bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Kṛṣṇa is so great. Kṛṣṇa's great power is so great. Generally people take Kṛṣṇa very slightly. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa danced with the gopīs." They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they go to hell by hearing from unauthorized sources, this Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā. They go to hell. We have to face so many questions sometimes, "Why Kṛṣṇa did like this?" Because due to this professional Bhāgavata readers, when they read Bhāgavata, they immediately open the rasa-līlā chapter. Because they have no other knowledge, they cannot explain. Bhāgavata begins from the very beginning, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca arthe [SB 1.1.1]. They have no brain to explain all these intricate verses in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, what is Kṛṣṇa, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. They jump over to the spiritual rasa-līlā, and people misunderstand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

One has to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then his Kṛṣṇa consciousness will help him how to become budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Then he'll be fully engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who knows…, but how one can know, understand, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in truth, that is stated by Kṛṣṇa.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

After Brahman realization, after being freed from this material contamination, when one becomes actually happy, prasannātmā, na śocati na kāṅkṣati, no anxiety, at that time, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. And He especially mentions,

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti

yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ

tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā

viśate tad-anantaram

[Bg. 18.55]

If one tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, as He is, not by fiction, not by speculation, not by so-called scholarly, foolish commentation, but Kṛṣṇa should be understood as He is. Then, that is right Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then one will be able to understand how Kṛṣṇa is working, how the whole world, material atmosphere, and material, cosmic manifestation is working. Then you will understand. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10], under my supervision. To understand Kṛṣṇa, and anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa, scientifically, then he, Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Not the foolish man, the intelligent man, who knows Kṛṣṇa actually, then the result is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Immediately he becomes liberated. So after giving up this body, he never, no more comes back to accept another, this material body. He goes back to home, back to Godhead. [break]

This living entity, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, how he has got this condition of material life? That can be explained in this way. Just like this fire spark. As long as it is in the fire, it is also just like fire, glowing, glowing. Only it is spark, it is glowing. But, if it falls down from the fire, then immediately it becomes extinguished. The glowing quality becomes extinguished, and there are three kinds of different position of the living entity according to the quality of this material nature he associates. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. The living entity is the same, but when he comes into this material world, he associates with three kinds of material qualities, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So one who is in sattva-guṇa, brahminical qualification, actually, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. One who has got the brahminical qualities by work and actually in life, satya, śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam, jñānaṁ-vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. So he can understand. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, he can understand, so how, what is my relationship with the Supreme Lord. So similarly, one who is in the rajo-guṇa, the example is given. There is a spark. When it falls down on dry grass, the dry grass becomes blazing. Although the spark is fallen, it causes the atmosphere lighten(?). And if the spark falls on the wet ground, then it is, the sparking, the glowing quality may remain for sometime, but it will be extinguished. And if it falls down on the water, it is extinguished. Similarly, when the living entity comes to this material world, if by chance he is in the association of the goodness, he keeps God consciousness. And if he is in the association of passion, he is materially busy. And if he associates with the quality of ignorance, he becomes animals or animal-like man. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving everyone the chance of to become again (indistinct) by association of Kṛṣṇa. The same spark, that extinguished charcoal, or karma, if you put into the fire, it will be again light. Similarly this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to bring forth again the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in every living entity.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

We are just trying to revive it, uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varān nibhodata. We are trying to awaken the human society to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and live this life successfully. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (end)

Lecture excerpt

–

Visakhapatnam, February 20, 1972,

At Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Maṭha (BV Purī Mahārāja)

720220LE.VIS

Lecture excerpt

Visakhapatnam, February 20, 1972,

At Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Maṭha (BV Purī Mahārāja)

Prabhupāda:

kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī

dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau

śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāvahantārakau

vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau

Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here to participate in this great Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This movement was started by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as we have explained several times, and the footsteps of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu was followed by the six gosvāmīs. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yagan śrī-jīva-gopālakau. The six gosvāmīs, who lived at Vṛndāvana, they came from different parts of the country. Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī belonged to formerly South Kanada, and they established…, their forefathers established themselves in Bengal. So Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī was South Indian. Similarly, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī belonged to Bengal. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu picked up very great personalities from all parts of the country. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yagau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So how they… [break] (end)

720318LE.BOM

Lecture

Bombay, March 18, 1972

Prabhupāda: I thank you very much for your coming here and participating in this great movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So in the morning we shall speak on the Bhagavad-gītā in Hindi, and in the evening we shall speak on the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in English. Of course, in India there was no necessity of speaking in English, but at least once if I do not speak in English, all my disciples who have come from Europe and America, they will be bereft of hearing me. Therefore we have made this program: morning I shall speak in Hindi, and in the evening I shall speak in English.

So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. There are eighteen Purāṇas, and out of them, six Purāṇas are meant for persons who are in sattva-guṇa. There are three qualities of the material nature. Some of us are in the modes of goodness, some of them are in the modes of passion, and some of them are in the modes of ignorance. So our Vedic literature… Sri Vyāsadeva claims everyone. Not that simply persons who are in sattva-guṇa, or in the modes of goodness, they are eligible for going back to Godhead, back to home. We should remember this fact, that this human form of life is meant for going back to home, back to Godhead. That is the ultimate goal of life. This human form of life is not meant for working very hard like the animals. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛ-loke, kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām ye [SB 5.5.1]. Nāyaṁ deha, this body, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛ-loke. Every one of the living entities, they have taken this material form, and there are 8,400,000 species of forms. The best of the forms is this human form. But this form of life is not meant for working so hard like an ass and gratifying the senses like the hogs and dogs. That is the injunction of the śāstras. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛ-loke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool-eaters. The stool-eaters you have seen, the hogs. The whole day and night they are searching after stool. So the śāstra, especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, says that the human form of life is not meant for working so hard like the hogs and dogs simply for sense gratification. The modern civilization, the so-called economic development, what is the ultimate aim of life? The ultimate aim of life is sense gratification, that's all. I have traveled all over the world. Especially in the Western countries, they are simply after sense gratification. They have no other objective. In America, some rich man goes to Florida and spends $50,000 a week simply for seeing naked dance. That means they have no other information than sense gratification. Wine and woman, that's all. That is gradually being spread all over the world. In our country also, working day and night, whole day and night, but the objective is sense gratification.

So śāstra says that this human form of life is not meant for this purpose. The human form of life is meant for tapasya: tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattva [SB 5.5.1]. Satya means my existence. We have to purify our existence. Just like if you become feverish, you have to purify yourself from the feverish condition, come to the healthy condition, then you can enjoy life. You cannot enjoy life in diseased condition. That is not possible. Suppose you are feverish, you are given a nice foodstuff, rasagullā, but you will taste it bitter. You cannot enjoy it because on account of your fever the tongue is saturated with bile, and you taste sweet things as bitter. Similarly, we have got our senses, that is all right, but we cannot enjoy our senses in the diseased condition of material life. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. If you want happiness, even sense gratification, that is not possible when your senses are covered by these material elements. We have got our senses, that is a fact. We have got our desires, we have got our mind, we have got our other senses, but this is now covered by the material elements. This is called dress. Just like if you are simply dressed, and if you want to enjoy sense gratification, it is not possible. You have to undress yourself, you have to become naked yourself. Similarly, if you want to sense gratify, then you have to purify your this material existence. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. You have to become purified. Śuddhyed satya yeṇa brahma-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. If you purify yourself, then by that purified senses you enjoy brahma-sukha. Brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Ananta means there is no end. Here, if you want to enjoy your senses in this material world, there is end. You cannot. The highest sense gratification in this material world is sex life, but you cannot enjoy sex life perpetually. For some moments-then it is ended. But brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. But if you want to enjoy brahma-sukha… That is also sense gratification, but that is ananta. Ananta means there is no end. Ramante yoginam anante. The yogis… Yogis means the bhakti-yogī, because of all yogis, the bhakti-yogī is the best. That is the statement by Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā.

yoginām api sarveṣām

mad-gatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

The highest yogi is bhakti-yogī. These boys and girls that have taken this bhakti-yoga, they are the topmost yogis. So yoginam ramante. They also enjoy. Ramante yoginam anante. But their reciprocation of sense gratification is with the ananta, the supreme unlimited. Ramante yoginam anante satyānanda. That is real happiness, satyānanda. Here in this material world, that is mithyānanda, but real ānanda is to reciprocate with the Supreme, just like Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā. So ramante yoginam anante satyānanda-cid-ātmani. And that is not material. Cit. That is spiritual, cid-ātmani. Iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahmābhidhīyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. Therefore rāma, rāma means to enjoy spiritual bliss satyānanda. That is, that should be the aim of human form of life. Human form of life is a chance to come back to the real platform of transcendental bliss. And if we waste our time simply for animal sense gratification like dogs and hogs, then you are wasting your time.

So this bhagavata dharma, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is started to educate people for enjoying satyānanda, satyānanda. At the present moment we have no information what is the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is described in the Vedānta-sūtra as janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta-sūtra begins with this sūtra, that "Now this human form of life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth and my relationship with Him.'' That is the human mission. The dogs and hogs, they cannot understand what is the aim of life, but in the human form of life we can understand that this form of life is especially meant for understanding the Absolute Truth, or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth. Kṛṣṇa therefore says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Absolute Truth means the Supreme. In the Brahma-sūtra it is indicated that the human form of life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. We have to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human form of life, not to waste our time simply going to the market and inquire, "What is the rate of rice and what is the rate of dahl?'' That should go on, but along with it there should be inquiry what is the Absolute Truth and what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God. That is beginning of human form of life. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. The foolish persons, foolish living entities, abodha-jāto… All of us, we are born ignorant; otherwise why we are sent to a school? Why the children are sent to a school? Because they're abodha-jāto. By birth they are all śūdras, abodha. Therefore according to Vedic system there are saṁskāras, reformatory methods, and when the child is taken for saṁskāra, that is called upanayana. Upanaya means bringing him nearer to understand spiritual life. That is sacred thread ceremony. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born ignorant. Otherwise why a person even born in brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya family, why this upanāya saṁskāra is there? Because it is to be understood that when a person takes birth, he's śūdra. He has to be educated. He has to be given transcendental knowledge. That is the aim of human life. Unfortunately, these things are now stopped.

So actually we are begetting like cats and dogs, and how can you expect peace and prosperity in the society of cats and dogs or hogs? It is not possible. So in this age especially, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The population is increasing simply śūdras. But there is great necessity of brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas. There are some population who are vaiśyas and śūdras, but practically the civilization is going on in the hands of vaiśyas and śūdras. I don't mean that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdras by birth-right; by qualification. These are all explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The society must be divided into four classes of orders. There must be intelligent class of men, who are called brāhmaṇas. They must give spiritual education to society. Not that everyone should remain laborer and work hard day and night like hogs and dogs for sense gratification. It is a very dangerous civilization. You cannot expect any peace and prosperity in this type of civilization. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very, very essential, very, very essential. I am very glad to inform you that this movement is being especially received in the Western countries by the younger generation. I am very much hopeful. I am old man of seventy-six years age. Now, I can pass away at any moment, but I am confident that my disciples, who are mostly Europeans and Americans, they will continue this movement, and I wish there will be considerable change on the face of the globe.

So this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives you instruction how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bhagavad-gītā is the elementary lessons how to understand Kṛṣṇa, then become Kṛṣṇa conscious. If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa… It is not very easy thing to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

Kṛṣṇa says Himself that "Out of many, many millions of people, one may be interested how to make life successful. One may know what is the aim of life.'' That is called siddhi. Yatatām… Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Everyone is interested how to earn money or how to gratify senses. That is the modern civilization. Here is a competition of sense gratification. I'm gratifying my senses in one way, and all others, they are trying to imitate me or compete with me though they hate me. This is going on. Everyone is trying to be the lord of all I survey. That is competition. Why I want to become the lord of all I survey? Because I want to gratify my senses to the greatest extent. This is going on. But actually our position is not to lord it over. Our position is to be lorded by the Lord. That is our position, actually. If you don't agree to be predominated by the Supreme Lord, then you shall be predominated by other agent, other energy, the material energy. I met one great professor in Moscow. The subject matter was freedom, Communism. So my last question was that "You people, Communists, you have surrendered to Lenin, and we have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Then where is the difference? You have selected a personality like Lenin or Stalin or Marx. We have selected a personality, Kṛṣṇa. Now, so far the principle of surrender is concerned, it is there in Communism and our Vaiṣṇavism. Now it has to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is good or Lenin or good. That is a different question.'' So actually we are trying to be free, but we surrender to some rascal, that's all. Instead of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa we prefer to surrender to some rascal or fool. That is māyā. We have to surrender. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Our real identification is eternal servant of God, or Kṛṣṇa. That is our real identification. But unfortunately, artificially we are trying to lord it over Kṛṣṇa or over the material nature. This is struggle. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. This struggle you cannot overcome. Kṛṣṇa says duratyayā. It is very difficult to surmount the influence of material nature. Mama māyā duratyayā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "If anyone surrenders unto Me, then he can get rid of this influence of the material nature.'' This is the law. You cannot artificially change it. If you do not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, God, then the māyā, or the material energy, will always give you trouble. The triṣu, three kinds of miserable conditions. The trident you have seen. The trident in the hand of Goddess Durgā, and she is punishing the demons with the trident on the chest. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has said, viṣaya-viṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jvale. Our heart is always burning on account of this material condition, threefold miseries of material life: adhyātmika, adhibhautika, and adhidaivika. Viṣaya-viṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jvale juṛāite nā koinu upāya. "I did not make any attempt how to get out of it.'' Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana rati nā janmila kene tāya. "Unfortunately, I could not develop my attachment for Kṛṣṇa or His name, which is the only process to get out of this anxieties of material existence.''

So these are the facts. Everyone is anxious to have peace. The process of peace is not that you can manufacture. The process of peace is already there in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said by the Lord that,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasaṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

This is the way of śānti. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for actual peace and prosperity. Now if we are unfortunate, if we do not take this movement very seriously, that is a different thing. But actually this movement is on sound basis of Vedic knowledge, and it is very scientific. Any scientist, any philosopher can scrutinizingly study this movement. We have got book, very big, big books, four hundred, five hundred pages, one dozen books. If you have time, you read this philosophy, this science, and try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But it is not a new movement. It is already known in India. Unfortunately, we Indian people, we are rejecting. That is our misfortune. Our misfortune is, as it is said, (Hindi). We have kicked out our own culture; now we are trying to develop another culture from other spheres of the world. So you can do that-there is no objection-but don't forget your original culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was taught by Kṛṣṇa Himself five thousand years ago in the Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: "Always think of Me, always worship Me, always offer your respect unto Me, then you will come back to home, back to Godhead.'' Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Just try to surrender unto Me only,'' mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Our sufferings are due to our sinful activities. We cannot surpass the vigilance of material nature by committing or by executing sinful life. That is not possible. Therefore in our movement we ask everybody, especially our serious students, to refrain from four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. These are the pillars of sinful life. If you think that you are enjoying life by indulging in these four kinds of sense gratification, that means you are implicating yourself. The chance of human body which you have got now to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you misuse it and indulge in sinful life, then next life is waiting as cats and dogs. That is nature's law. But if we forget the nature's law, if you simply become puffed-up by false education, that is another thing. You can do that. But real fact is this: vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22].

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

You have to change this dress. You have to change this body. And next body is depending on your activities. If you act sinfully, then you have to take the body, by force of nature, as cats and dogs. That is certain. Don't risk your life. Take the opportunity of human life and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa personally comes to canvass, to "Please give up all this engagement, please come to Me, surrender unto Me, and I will give you all protection.'' This is the lesson we understand from Bhagavad-gītā. And if we actually surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, if we actually understand Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then your bhāgavata-dhima(?) begins. That is Vyāsa… These are all contributions of Śrīla Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva, the last contribution of Vyāsadeva, after compilation of Vedānta-sūtra… He personally wrote the comments of Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrānāṁ **. Vyāsadeva has written personally that "This is the real commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra.'' Because he knew that many foolish persons would comment on the Vedānta-sūtra differently, atheistically, that "There is no God. I am God. You are God.'' Therefore he protected the readers of Brahma-sūtra. [break] …form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And because it is commentary of the Vedānta-sūtra, therefore he begins with first aphorism of the Vedānta-sūtra: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Now, he explains the verse, the sūtra, or the code, Vedic code, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The first question is, "Who is… What is the Absolute Truth, you should inquire now.'' This is the beginning of human life. If one does not inquire what is God, what I am, what is my relationship with God, that is animal life. That is animal life, that is not human life. Human life is not meant for simply eating, sleeping, and mating and, or defending.

So this is the beginning, as I have told you. Parābhava. Without understanding our relationship with the Supreme Lord, whatever we are creating by our industrialization, economic development or so on and so on, it is all defeat, because we are losing the chance. Lord Jesus Christ also said in one place that "If we are lost of our souls and if we gain the whole world, then what is the gain?'' Actually that is the fact. We are losing ourselves. Suppose after making huge amounts of money in the bank balance, and if I die and if I take birth in the next life as a cat and dog, then what is the benefit of amassing such a huge amount of bank balance? We should understand this. Therefore unless we inquire about the Brahman or the Absolute Truth, then whatever activities we are performing without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without the knowledge of the Brahman, then they are all defeat. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Therefore human life actually begins when this inquiry is there. If this inquiry is not there, then it is animal life. That is stated in the Upaniṣads: etad viditya (…Sanskrit). If anyone passes away from this material world, from this body, after understanding what is Brahman, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is this world, what I am, then he is a brāhmaṇa. (Sanskrit) And if one passes away like cats and dogs without understanding, then he's a kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa means miser, who could not properly use his property or assets. He's called a miser. So we have got this human form of life. Don't become a miser simply by seeing that "How I can enjoy?'' How I can enjoy, that is also very much nicely explained, that if you think that, "If I can live for three hundred years, or say one thousand years, then my life is successful.'' The Bhāgavata says, "Why three hundred years? There are many trees who are living for ten thousand years.'' So do you think that by living for ten thousand years your life is successful? Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years. Lord Caitanya lived for forty-eight years. So living for many, many years is not success of life. Live for a moment, but live for, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. Live for a moment. It does not require to live for thousands of years. Because there are many trees… I have seen in San Francisco, one great tree is standing for seven thousand years, this tree, and standing in the jungle. Do you like such kind of life, living? Live, live for worth living. Don't live like cats and dogs. That is life. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1].

So try to understand the Bhāgavata. Try to understand Vedānta philosophy. Unfortunately, when we study Bhāgavata we immediately jump over Kṛṣṇa-līlā with the gopīs. That is not the process. The process is first of all you try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Without understanding Kṛṣṇa, which is very difficult subject matter… Kṛṣṇa says that yatatām api siddhānām kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. So the preliminary study of Kṛṣṇa is Śrīmad, er, Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa explains Himself. (aside:) Give me water. (coughs) In the Seventh Chapter, we shall begin from tomorrow morning, the study of this Bhagavad-gītā in the morning. Please try to come. Kṛṣṇa is giving personally instruction. You cannot understand God, Kṛṣṇa, by your mental speculation. (coughs) That is called Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya, Dr. Frog philosophy. A frog from within the well, he's trying to study Atlantic Ocean. This is a logic given in the Nyāya-śāstra. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. What he'll study about the Atlantic Ocean? One who has got knowledge, three-feet knowledge in the well, what idea he'll get about Atlantic Ocean or Pacific Ocean? As it is not possible simply by imagination, simply, similarly, if you try to understand about God, or Kṛṣṇa, by your mental speculation, it will be simply a waste of time. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo (Sanskrit). That is already forbidden, that "You cannot understand by your great brain.'' What brain you have got? Teeny brain. You cannot compare your brain with God's brain. You are very proud by flying a sputnik in the sky. That's all right. You have got good brain. But there is another personality who has got brain who is floating millions and trillions of planets as weightlessness in the sky. So you cannot compare your brain with that brain, but there is a brain. So nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhya. Simply by speculating, simply by concoction, you cannot understand. You have to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa, from Him. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. Just like you cannot see the sun at this time, when the night is dark. You cannot, ah, I mean to say, invent some searchlight and ask people, "Please come on the roof. I shall show you the sun by the searchlight.'' It is not possible. By your endeavor you cannot see the sun at night. But when the sun rises in the morning, you can see. That is the process. Similarly, you cannot understand God by your mental speculation. You have to submit yourself. As Kṛṣṇa says, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Then He will reveal Himself, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. He'll reveal yourself. He is within yourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvara, the Supreme Lord, is situated as Paramātmā in everyone's heart. But if you become submissive, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Those who are cent percent engaged in the loving service of the Lord, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam, He speaks from within. Then you can understand. He comes out, He exhibits Himself, manifests Himself the spiritual master, as spiritual master. Kṛṣṇa is trying to help you from within, from without. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. You take advantage of it. From within, He, as Paramātmā, caitya-guru, He'll help you. buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. And from without, as spiritual master, He'll give you instructions from the śāstra, from the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, and the Kṛṣṇa's representative, Kṛṣṇa's manifestation, the spiritual master, will rightly inform you. That is the position.

So we should take advantage of these facilities offered to human society. If we don't take advantage of it, if simply we work hard like dogs and hogs and die like cats and dogs, then what is the value of life? So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is started to educate people to understand Kṛṣṇa, that's all. We have no other concoction. There is no invention. Simply we are trying to convince people to understand Kṛṣṇa. So our main subject matter is based on the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So we have opened this center in Bombay to give you facilities. Please try to take it. Please come and encourage us, and we shall continue this movement, here in this center, as long as possible.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

720319LE.BOM

Lecture

Bombay, March 19, 1972

Prabhupāda: So when I was coming on the (indistinct), one gentleman remarked that "Your, this movement, will help forgetful Indians who are trying to forget God.'' Not only in India, throughout the whole world they are trying to forget God. And this forgetfulness of our relationship with God is material condition. Material life and spiritual life, the difference is that when we forget God, that is material. And when we are fully conscious of God, that is spiritual life. (aside:) Why they are allowed to sit here?

Devotee (1): All the children should leave. All the children should leave?

Prabhupāda: Not leave; just keep them quiet.

Devotee (1): Would all the children kindly be very quiet during tonight's lecture, please. All you parents that have your children here, will you kindly keep them quiet so that Śrīla Prabhupāda can be heard by everyone, please.

Prabhupāda: The real disease is, as it is stated by a Vaiṣṇava poet,

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

When we forget Kṛṣṇa and want to lord it over the material nature, this is called māyā. Māyā means which has no factual existence. So this idea that I shall lord it over the material nature, this is māyā.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as we think of becoming the Lord and lording it over the Lord's creation, that is called māyā. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just an attempt to revive the original consciousness that "I am not the lord, but I am the servant of the Lord.'' This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So our program is to speak on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the evening and to speak in English, and in the morning we speak on Bhagavad-gītā in Hindi. So we are very much grateful to you that you are kindly trying to cooperate with this movement and hear about Kṛṣṇa. Your cooperation means you please hear about Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo saṅge calo ei-mātra duhkhā cāi. We are simply begging you that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and please come along with us. This much begging we are submitting.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The slide show is ready for the children if they would like to go.

Prabhupāda: So why not? Yes?

Devotee (1): There is, in this tent on this side, there is a slide show for the children, which is beginning just now. So if all the children would like to go there, they can see many nice pictures of Kṛṣṇa and of all our activities all over the world. Very nice show. (aside:) It's working. (noise as children leave)

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So māyā, or illusion… There are two platforms: māyā and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is just like sun. It is said that Kṛṣṇa is just like the sun and māyā is just like the darkness. So whenever there is sun, there is no more darkness. Just like at the present moment it is dark night because the sun is absent from our vision. This is called māyā. Sun is always there in the sky, but when the sun is not visible, this is called darkness. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is present always within our heart, everywhere. It is said in the Brahma-saṁhitā, aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ. Kṛṣṇa is within the universe, Kṛṣṇa is within your heart, Kṛṣṇa is within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam adi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. You can take it from the śāstras, from the Vedas, that Kṛṣṇa is always present everywhere; therefore He's God, the original Viṣṇu, all-pervasive. This is also stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā:

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya

jīvanti loma-bilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ

viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.48]

The Mahā-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing period millions of universes are coming out, and when He is inhaling, millions of universes are going within Him, He is called Mahā-Viṣṇu. That Mahā-Viṣṇu is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā. That Brahma, Lord Brahma, who exists only on the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu, that Mahā-Viṣṇu is partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that there are many manifestations of the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Just like candles, there are many candles, each candle has got the illuminating power. Similarly, eko bahu syām. Viṣṇu expands Himself in many, many millions of forms. Those forms are called svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, personal expansions, and separated expansions. The separated expansions are we, we living entities. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁso jīva bhūta [Bg. 15.7]. So we are also expansions of Viṣṇu, or Kṛṣṇa, but we are separated. Means we are not personal expansions. The personal expansions is called Viṣṇu-tattva, and the separated expansion is called jīva-tattva. And jīva-tattva is also śakti-tattva. Viṣṇu is śaktimān, and we are śakti. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

apareyam itas tu viddhi

me prakṛti parām

jīva-bhutāṁ mahā-baho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

So we are śakti-tattva. We are not śaktimān-tattva. It is not corroborated. One who thinks that "I am God,'' śaktimān-tattva, that is false. We are śakti-tattva. Śaktimān means the powerful, one who possesses the power, and śakti means the power or energy. Or one who controls the energy, He is called śaktimān, and the energy acts in different way. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. There are different kinds of, millions of energies, of the śaktimān. So we are energy of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be Kṛṣṇa. Just like fire and heat or light. Heat is not different from fire, but heat is not fire. If you feel heat, it does not mean that you're touching the fire or that you are being burned. So simultaneously one and different. This philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva: simultaneously, inconceivable one and different. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, Vaiṣṇava philosophy. We are neither different nor one, simultaneously, and therefore it is called inconceivable, acintya. In our material conception we cannot think that one thing may be simultaneously one with another and different from another. So this is our position: jīva is śakti-tattva and bhagavān is śaktimān-tattva. But śakti, śaktimān abheda, there is no difference. There are many other examples. Just like the sun and sunlight. Sunlight is not different from the sun, and still the sunlight is not the sun. In the morning, when you find that there is sunlight within your room, you can say that the sun is within your room. You can say that, but the actual sun is far, far away, 93,000,000 miles away from us. So there are so many examples that we are energy of the Supreme Lord, we living entities.

So the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam therefore begins with the first aphorism of the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], the Absolute Truth. Vyāsadeva has given you Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam after his mature experience. He wrote all the Vedic literatures but he was not happy. So when he was not in his mood, he was deeply thinking that "What is the defect in my writings that after writing so many Vedic literatures I am not feeling very happy,'' at that time his spiritual master happened to appear before him, and he explained that why he was not happy. He explained that "You have touched many subject matters about dharma, artha, kāma, and mokṣa-religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation-but you have not explained about the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore you are feeling unhappy.'' So Vyāsadeva, after writing Vedānta-sūtra, he, by the instruction of Nārada Muni, his spiritual master, he compiled this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is explanation of the Vedānta-sūtra. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is explanation by the same author. Vyāsadeva is the author of the Vedānta-sūtra, and he explains what does he mean by the Sūtras. That is very nice. The author explains his mind. That is perfect explanation. I cannot understand the author's mind. I may imagine something, but you cannot understand the author's mind, what does he want to explain. Therefore Vyāsadeva explains himself about the Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The human life, atha, now it is the time for inquiring about the Supreme Absolute Truth. Not in other life. "Other'' means other than the human life: animal life, beast life, plant life, aquatic life, insect life. There are so many, 8,400,000 of species of life. By evolutionary process, when we come to the human form of life, it is our duty to understand and inquire about Brahma. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That Brahma is explained by the author. That Brahma is that from where everything emanates, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Janma, śiti and loi(?). Janma means birth, śiti means stay, and loi(?) means annihilation. So wherefrom everything is coming out, and from whom everything is staying, and after annihilation, where everything is entering-that is Brahma. Janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1]. Janmādi.

Now, that source of energy wherefrom everything is emanating, now what is the actual position of that thing? Is it inanimate or animate? Just like some scientists explain the theory of creation, that "There was a chunk that was inanimate. From inanimate things animation has developed under certain conditions.'' That is not possible. We have no such experience that from inanimate things some animation has developed. Sometimes we see, it is called (Sanskrit?). Sometimes we see that from heaps of rice stocked, one scorpion is coming out. It does not mean that the inanimate rice has given birth to a scorpion. No. The actual fact is the scorpion lays down eggs within the rice, and by fermentation they develop, and then it comes out. So there are different types of emanation. That is biological subject matter. But here in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Vyāsadeva says that origin of the emanation of everything is sentient, conscious. He's not like matter, unconscious. Janmādy asya yataḥ 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. He says that the origin of creation must be conscious, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means conscious. Unless the origin of creation is conscious, how things are so happening so rightly and nicely? How all the planets are rotating in their orbit, there is no collision, there is no fall down? So there is a great plan. Therefore the creator must be conscious, a person. That is the verdict of Vyāsadeva. And anyone who is also conscious and intelligent can understand. He says, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād. Anvayād: directly and indirectly. Directly He's conscious of the creation, and indirectly, as we are, we are also conscious because we are parts and parcels of the Supreme. Another explanation is that my birth has taken place from my father. My father's birth has taken place from his father. In this way you go on researching-his father, his father, his father. So everyone is a conscious personality. So why the original source of everything should not be conscious personality? This is another thing. Conscious and person. Just like my father is conscious and person, his father is conscious and person. In this way you go on researching according to our Vedic knowledge, you come to Brahma. Brahma is considered to be the original creature within the universe, ādi-kavi. So now this Brahma is also born of the navel lotus of Viṣṇu; the Viṣṇu, He must be conscious. The Viṣṇu is conscious, abhijñaḥ. So the origin of creation cannot be unconscious. Origin of creation must be conscious. That is the version of the Vedas, Vedic literature. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], this is the Vedānta-sūtra verse. He must be conscious.

Now Vyāsadeva is explaining that supreme consciousness. He has already offered his respect, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ. Śrīpāda Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented on this oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, that Vasudeva means Kṛṣṇa. Cinma karundaya kṛṣṇāya, he has said in his comment. Oṁ namo bhagavate parama… paramahaṁsa asādhi caraṇa kamala.(?) Paramahaṁsa. This consciousness, supreme consciousness, can be realized by the paramahaṁsa asādhi. The paramahaṁsas can taste what is that supreme consciousness. Paramahaṁsa asādhika caraṇa kamala cinmakarundaya bhaktajana manasa nivasaya śrī kṛṣṇāya. Bhaktajana manasaya nivasaya. That Supreme Absolute Truth, cinmakarundaya, in the peaceful lotus within the heart, He lives there. He lives in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa has explained that Īśvara, the Supreme Lord… He is the Supreme Lord. He says that Īśvara, the Supreme Lord, lives in everyone's heart, and He also lives there as paramātmā, cinmakarundaya. So the paramātmā and the ātmā both are living within the heart. Cinmakarundaya kṛṣṇāya. So Paramātmā is partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa, and jīvātmā is separated part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the original person, Supreme Personality of Godhead.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Sarvam means the creative deities: Brahma, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. They are also from Kṛṣṇa. The Brahma, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara are called guṇa-avatāras of Kṛṣṇa, incarnation of the material qualities. Brahma is incarnation of the material quality passion, rajo-guṇa, and Viṣṇu is incarnation of the quality sattva-guṇa, and Lord Siva is the incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in tama-guṇa. So the example is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, what is the difference between Lord Siva, Lord Brahma and Lord Viṣṇu. The difference is they are one but they are different manifestations. Just like firewood. In the wood there is fire. So in the beginning there is no fire, but when there is little fire, there is smoke, then there is ignition, flame. But we are concerned with the flame, neither with the wood nor with the smoke. Similarly, although Lord Siva, Lord Viṣṇu and Lord Brahma are different manifestations of the same thing, Absolute Truth, still we are concerned with the fire of Viṣṇu, not with the wood, nor with the smoke. This is the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Therefore Vyāsadeva says that the original person, or the Absolute Truth, must be conscious. (Sanskrit). Directly and indirectly He knows everything. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. Kṛṣṇa knows everything, past, present and future. That is also explained in the Fourth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, where Kṛṣṇa said that "Long, long ago I spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god.'' Vivasvān manave prāha imaṁ ivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam. "This version of Bhagavad-gītā, avyayam, inexhaustible knowledge, was first spoken by Me to the sun-god."

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

So at that time Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa for clearance how Kṛṣṇa spoke millions of years ago this Bhagavad-gītā, all about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to the sun-god. He inquired as an ordinary man, "My dear Kṛṣṇa''-Kṛṣṇa was his friend and cousin-brother also-that "how can I believe that You spoke this Bhagavad-gītā millions and trillions of years ago to the sun-god?'' What was the reply by Kṛṣṇa? The reply was, Kṛṣṇa said, [break] "…have forgotten. I remember all of it.'' "I remember all of it.'' That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa, or God, and the ordinary living entity. We have forgotten. If I ask you what you were doing last evening at this time, you will have to remember, "Yes. I was doing that. I forget.'' But Kṛṣṇa will not forget. Therefore, this is described here, (Sanskrit). He knows everything. [break] "I am sitting in everyone's heart.'' Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. "From Me there is remembrance; jñāna, knowledge; and forgetfulness.'' Kṛṣṇa… [break] That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ye yathā māṁ prapadyante

tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham

mama vartmānuvartante

manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ

[Bg. 4.11]

So Kṛṣṇa is very kind, as I have already explained. Two spiritual identities, namely the ātmā and the Paramātmā, are there within your heart. The Paramātmā is giving you direction. Paramātmā is giving you direction. What kind of direction? Because I wanted to forget Kṛṣṇa, He sometimes gives me direction that "Yes, you forget like this.'' And anyone who wants to remember Kṛṣṇa, to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness, He helps you also. This is Kṛṣṇa. Why? Because we are parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. That is also explained here-abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means fully independent. The Absolute Truth, the Supreme Person, is fully independent. Not only conscious, abhijñaḥ, but He is independent. But we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; therefore the quality of independence of Kṛṣṇa is there, but in minute quantity. Our independence and Kṛṣṇa's independence is not the same. Just like here is the Arabian Sea. You take a drop of water from the Arabian Sea, you taste it, you'll find it is salty. The salt is there in a drop of the Arabian Sea water, and salt is there in the Arabian Sea. But the quantity of salt in the whole Arabian Sea and the quantity of salt in the drop of water, they are different. Similarly, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, all the qualities of Kṛṣṇa, they are also present within us in minute quantity. And because it is in minute quantity, sometimes it becomes lost. Therefore our consciousness, originally, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but somehow or other, being in contact with this matter, we have lost our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore this movement is to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our original constitutional position. That I was explaining, quoting the Bengali poet

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

Because somehow or other in material contact we have lost our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it has to be revived. It has to be revived; then we shall be happy. That is the particular point we want to stress on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-revival of the original consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained this as ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanaṁ. If we cleanse our heart, that means if we come to the original Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanaṁ. This blazing fire of material consciousness will immediately extinguish. That is the process. Every one of us trying to be happy, peaceful and blissful also, but unless we revive our original Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible.

So this movement is very important movement, that we are attempting to revive one's original consciousness. The original consciousness is clean. Just like the water. Originally, when it drops from the clouds, it is distilled water, clean, but as soon as it comes in touch with the muddy earth, it becomes unclean. Similarly, originally our consciousness was Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, in touch with the material modes of nature, we have formed different types of consciousness. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmaṣu [Bg. 13.22]. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇam-the cause, the cause of our tribulation. What is that tribulation? Sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. We are taking repeatedly birth, one after another, sometimes very good birth and sometimes very bad, sad asad. There are 8,400,000 species of life. Sometimes I may become Brahma and sometimes I may become the insect or the germ in the stool. That is my position. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Because we have lost the original consciousness, I am being in contact with the material modes of nature, means sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. We are mixing with the different types of material qualities, and as such we are developing different modes of material nature in our consciousness. This consciousness has to be cleared. This consciousness… Even our consciousness is goodness… Just like there are many people who are very charitably disposed: they want to make charity, they want to open schools, that want to open hospitals. That is goodness. That is all right. But still it is material; it is not spiritual. Similarly, there are others also who are contacting the modes of passion, just like big, big kings, they are very much anxious or very much ambitious to expand their kingdom. This is called association with the modes of passion. Similarly, there are mixture also, mixture of goodness, passion and ignorance. So according to these different types of mixture, or original quality, there are different classes of men. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. These three qualities, when one is developed in the modes of goodness, he is very intelligent or he is brāhmaṇa. When we are developed…, our consciousness is passion, that is called kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And when it is mixed up, it is called vaiśya. And when it is ignorance, it is called śūdra. These are the divisions. So here Kṛṣṇa says, "If you want to transcend these qualitative situations of material life, then you have to come to Me.'' Because these are…, all these qualities are different modes of material nature, which is called māyā. So we are now compact in the association of māyā, in different qualities, and Kṛṣṇa says that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you actually want to revive your own consciousness, original consciousness, then you have to surrender. That is being explained by Vyāsadeva here, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. He says, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. Dhīmahi is gāyatrī-mantra. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi.

So by brahminical culture, by chanting the gāyatrī-mantra or the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually we become purified. That is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Come to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll become happy. Original consciousness, the beginning of original consciousness: to understand one's self as Brahma, not matter. Brahma means spirit. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I'm not matter, I'm spirit soul.'' This is the beginning of spiritual consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

brahma bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

Unless you come to the platform of brahma bhūta [SB 4.30.20] consciousness, you cannot treat everyone on the same level. It is not possible. The so-called universal brotherhood is not possible on this material condition of life. Therefore you can see that materially there are so many attempts to find out a platform of universal brotherhood. But there is no universal brotherhood. There is simply platform of enemy. The United Nation is trying to come to the platform of universal brotherhood. When I go to New York, I see the great institution. There are hundreds and thousands of flags. Instead of being united, the flags are increasing, because this universal brotherhood, this equality, fraternity, cannot be established on this material platform. It is not possible. You have to come to the point, to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or brahma bhūta stage, then it is possible.

brahma bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

So everything is scientifically described in the Vedic literature. You haven't got to make any research. It is already there. You have to simply accept it and take it. Then your life will be sublime, your life will be successful. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that, to make everyone's life successful. (Sanskrit) Everyone become happy. That is the mission of everyone. "Everyone'' means those who are devotees. How people will be happy? That is their mission. It is not that we start a mission just to make some money and to fill up our belly, hungry belly. No. It is a mission to see that everyone is happy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the mission. Our ācāryas, just like Śrīla Rūpa Goswāmī, about him Śrinivāsācarya writes,

nana-śāstra-vicaraṇaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau

lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau saranyakarau

radha-kṛṣṇa-padaravinda-bhajananandena-mattalikau

vande rupa-sanātana raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau

They engaged themselves. They were ministers. Rūpa Goswāmī and Sanātana Goswāmī, they were two great ministers in the government of Pathan kingdom in Bengal. And they resigned the post just for the benefit of the mass of people. They became mendicants, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. So this is the mission of all who is born in India. That is the statement by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

bhārata bhumite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for para-upakāra, for doing good to others-the best welfare activities in the world. And it is India's duty, it is India's prerogative to take this knowledge and broadcast all over the world for para-upakāra. And actually it is happening. All these European and American boys and girls, they are trying to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very seriously. So it is very scientific, authorized and practical also. So we hope that all of you who are present here will try to cooperate with this movement, and let us meet at least so long as I am here. That will be very beneficial.

Thank you very much.

Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

720402LE.SYD

Lecture Excerpt

Sydney, April 2, 1972

Prabhupāda: So if one becomes a Vaiṣṇava under the principles of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he can be lifted at once from any abominable condition, śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. Just like śvapacam, the dog-eater, he becomes variṣṭham, better than a brāhmaṇa. Because why? Because he is a devotee. So unless one becomes a devotee, one has to follow this varṇāśrama-dharma. This is the idea. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is speaking from the devotional platform. He did not say when He was actually acting as a brāhmaṇa in Navadvīpa. But when He realized… He is realized always, but as ācārya, He says that when one becomes Vaiṣṇava, gopī-bhartuḥ… What is the… Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. He says, "I am not a brāhmaṇa." Then the next question is, What You are? He says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa." So when one is realized in that way, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," he does not require to be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. He transcends. He is postgraduate. So, so long he does not realize that, he has to follow the varṇāśrama-dharma. Otherwise he is not civilized. They are mleccha, yavanas. The most abominable, śvapacam, most abominable. Is that clear? Yes. (end)

720406LE.MEL

Lecture at Christian Monastery

Melbourne, April 6, 1972

Prabhupāda: Respectable Fathers, Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly giving me a chance to speak about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, which is going on all over the world with the, especially with the assistance of my American and European disciples. Long, long ago, prehistoric age practically… Because the modern history cannot give account of the world more than three thousand years. But about five thousand years ago a meeting was held at Naimiṣāraṇya. Naimiṣāraṇya is a place in India still existing. Perhaps some of you who might have visited India… This place is situated near Lucknow in the northern India provinces, a very nice place, sanctified place. Still people go and find peace for spiritual meditation. In that tract of land, Naimiṣāraṇya, from time immemorial this place was especially recognized for spiritual meeting. So there was a meeting of great saintly persons, and Sūta Gosvāmī, one of the disciples of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he was selected the president to speak on Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So the question from the saintly persons… There were many questions. One of the question was that "After departure of Kṛṣṇa, who is in trust of dharma and jñāna?" Dharma means religion, and jñāna means knowledge. Because Kṛṣṇa, when He appeared on this planet, He said that,

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ

vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām

dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya

sambhavāmi yuge yuge

[Bg. 4.8]

"I appear in every millennium." According to Vedic scripture, Kṛṣṇa appears on this planet in one day of Brahmā. And Brahmā's duration of life is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is a very, very long period. His one day, daytime, twelve hours, from morning to evening, is described sahasra-yuga-paryantam arhad yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Sahasra-yuga. Yuga, this age. Just like this is, according to Vedic culture, this yuga is called Kali-yuga. So there are four yugas: Satya-yuga, Tretā-yuga, Dvāpara-yuga, and Kali-yuga. So the aggregate of all these yugas is about forty three hundred thousands of years. And if you multiply by one thousand, then that becomes Brahmā's one day only, twelve hours. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam arhad yad brahmaṇo viduḥ. So similarly, he has got one night also, and similarly, one day and night, then one month, then one year. In this way he lives for one hundred years. So during this period of daytime, Kṛṣṇa appears once. That we learn from the Vedic literature. So Kṛṣṇa said that what is His mission to come here? Kṛṣṇa is God. He does not require to come here, but He comes to serve some purpose. If God wants to come, nobody can check. Sometimes people question that "Why God should come?" So our answer is, "Why God should not come?" If He is all-powerful, who can check Him to come here? If we say that God cannot come, that means God becomes under our rules and regulation. So according to Vedic scripture, God comes, and He says personally why He comes: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Whenever there is discrepancy in the prosecution of religious principles, He comes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, abhyutthānam adharmasya. And whenever there is discrepancies in religious procedure, irreligious activities increases. That is natural. Whenever there is lenient government, the rogues and thieves will increase. It is natural. And if the government is very strict, then rogues and thieves cannot become very prominent. So when Kṛṣṇa comes, He has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]-for giving protection to the devotees, to the faithful, and for killing the demons. So Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He exhibited these two things. Perhaps you have seen our picture of Nārāyaṇa, or Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu has got four hands. In two hands He has got lotus flower and conchshell, and in the other two hands He has got a club and a disc. The disc and club is meant for vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, for killing the demons and the miscreants. And the conchshell and the lotus flower is meant for giving benediction and blessings to the devotees.

So in the Bhagavad-gītā we understand about Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavad-gītā is a well-read book all over the world. In any country you will find edition of Bhagavad-gītā by the language of the country. So in this Bhagavad-gītā we find that Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction about what is dharma, religion. He says… And at the end of His instruction He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], that "You give up other types of so-called religious principles. You simply surrender unto Me." So in another place in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "Religion means the codes of God." Just like the state gives us some rules and regulation to live, and one who follows the rules and regulation or the laws of the state, he is called good citizen, and those who do not follow, they are called outlaws or rogues or so many things. Similarly, religion is very simple thing. It is not cumbrous. Simple thing. If you take it simply, religion means, our definition of religion is, to accept the orders of God. That's all. It doesn't matter what religion you are following. You may be Christian, I may be Hindu, that may be Muhammadan, but the test of religion is how one has developed his God consciousness. That is the definition given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are different types of religion, but the best of them… Sa vai puṁsāṁ para. Para means superior, the best. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaja is another description of God. Adha, "Where material senses cannot reach." Adhokṣaja. Direct experiment knowledge cannot know God. There are many places… In the Bhagavad-gītā also, it is said,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

"Out of many millions of persons, one is interested to make his life successful. And out of millions of successful persons, one can very rarely understand what is God." That is the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. Actually, we find that people are generally interested with economic development, sense gratification. That's all. At least, I am traveling all over the world; I see people are very busy for searching out food and shelter. But according to Vedic scripture, it is said that food and shelter is already there, given by God. Because there are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human beings are very few, 400,000 species of life in different planets. And out of them, civilized men, they are very, very few. But God is giving food to everyone actually.

In the Vedas it is stated that nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān: (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13) "God is the supreme living being amongst all living beings." Nityo nityanam: "And He's the supreme eternal amongst all the eternals." We are also eternal. Because we are part and parcel of God, we have got all the qualities of God, but because we are minute part and particle of God, therefore all the qualities of God are there in minute particle. The example is just like the ocean. Ocean water is vast, and drop of ocean water, you analyze chemically, you will find all the chemical ingredients in that drop of water as there is in the water. The difference is of quantity. In the drop of water there is salt, and in the vast mass water in the ocean there is also salt. But the salt containing in the ocean water is very, very big quantity than the salt containing in the drop of water. And another example can be given. These are Vedic examples. Just like the fire and the sparks of the fire. We have seen, experienced. When there is fire, sometimes there is some sound, "Phut!" immediately hundreds and thousands of sparks coming out. Now these sparks, they are also fire, but not as big as the original fire. But they are fire. Therefore our philosophy, we, following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu: acintya bhedābheda-tattva. The difference is simultaneously we are one with God and different from God. One in quality. God is spirit; we are also spirit. He is Supersoul; we are individual. But God is great, and we are minute fragment. That is difference. Therefore, simultaneously we are one and different, one in quality but different in quantity. You accept also, "God is great." And we say that nobody can be greater than God, neither anyone can be equal to God. That is our philosophy. Asama urdhva. Asama. Sama means equal. Nobody can be equal to God. That is not possible. God is one. You may have some understanding that in the Vedic literature there is mention of many demigods. But the demigods, they are also living entities, a little more powerful than the human beings. That's all. Just like here, in this world also, we find somebody is more powerful than others. But that does not mean he is God. God is supreme, all-powerful. Here you may be a little more powerful then me, but another may be found who is more powerful than you, another you can find more powerful than him. In this way go on. There is no limit. Anyone, you will find somebody lower than him and higher than him. But nobody can say that "I am the supreme." Nobody can say. That is not possible.

According to our Vedic literature, Brahma, the creator of this universe, he is considered to be the highest creature within this universe, but he is also not God. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. God instructed him to create. Ādi-kavi. He is the original creature within this material world. Somebody may question that "If he is original creature, than how he got this knowledge of creating?" So that is explained. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. Hṛdā: "From the heart God instructed." God is situated in everyone's heart. That is called paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God has got three features: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Brahman is impersonal feature, and then Paramātmā, the localized feature, and Bhagavān, the personal feature.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

[SB 1.2.11]

The Absolute Truth is one, advaya-jñāna, without any duality, but according to our capacity, we realize the Absolute Truth from three different angles of vision. So one of them is realization of God in His impersonal Brahman feature, and another realization is to realize Him… Generally, the jñānīs, the philosophers, the speculators, by dint of their own knowledge, they realize the Absolute Truth in His impersonal Brahman feature. And those who are yogis, they realize this God, the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā within the heart. And those who are devotees, they realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the Supreme Person. But the Paramātmā and impersonal Brahman and this person God, they are all the same thing.

The example is given: just like the sunshine, the sun planet, and within the sun planet, the sun-god. According to Vedic religion, Vedic conception, every planet contains living entities. That is also very natural to conclude because within this material world, everything is made of five elements, gross: earth, water, fire, air, and sky. These are gross elements. And the subtle elements are mind, intelligence, and ego. So in some of the planets earth is prominent, some of the planets water is prominent, some of the planets the fire is prominent. In this way these five elements, gross elements… Every planet in the material world is made of these five gross elements. So just like here also we can experience that some of the living entities, just like the fishes, they are living in the water very peacefully. But if you are put into the water, you will not be comfortable. Perhaps you will die. Similarly, if the fishes are taken-that also we experienced-from the water, they will die on the land. Here we can see that some of the living entities, they can live comfortably within water. Some of the living entities, they can live comfortably on land, some of them in the air. Similarly, why not some of them in fire? Because after all, fire is also one of the material elements. So according to Vedic scripture there is life in the sun planet also. They have got fiery bodies. That's all. That is the difference. Just like the fishes here we see they have got watery bodies, similarly, one may have got fiery body. From logic, from argument, we cannot deny that. So this example, that in the sun planet there is a predominating deity or president or god, whatever you call… He is called sun-god, and his name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. His name is also there. And Kṛṣṇa says,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

Kṛṣṇa says that "This instruction, bhakti-yoga instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, was first imparted by Me to the sun-god, Vivasvān." That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Now, it is a question of believe or not believe. That is a different thing. We believe. We take it. Because it is said by Kṛṣṇa, we take it, accept it. And we apply our reason also, not blindly take it, that if I see that in every planet, in our this planet there is a president… Formerly, in this planet also, there was only one king, and he was ruling over all the planets. Gradually, people have divided their interests and become different nations. From Vedic history we can see… I understand… Somebody was telling me that in Australia also there is some Śiva temple here. Who was telling me that? He was telling me. So the archaeological investigation has found so many relics, and in the Vedic literature we also find the mention of all the island, sapta-dvīpa, seven islands. Seven islands means Asia, Europe, North America, South America, Africa, Australia, and Oceania. These are mentioned already in the Vedic literature. So it is not that the world was not known to Vedic culture. It was fully known. And one king-he was that Mahārāja Pṛthu-he was the only one ruler all over the world, and he was ruling over these seven islands-that is mentioned-although his residential quarter was in the Brahmāvarta, the piece of land between the rivers Yamunā and Ganges. That tract of land is still considered a very sanctified land. Practically all the Vedic culture is there still. So the example is that as there is a chief man or king… He is also supposed to be God's representative. God gives power to somebody to look after the interest of the inhabitants of that particular planet. Similarly, there is a king in the sun planet. We may call him sun-god or something like, but there is a predominating personality. He has got his personal effulgence, body. Just like fire has got effulgence, heat and light, similarly, he is the fiery god or fiery person, and his effulgence is spread all over the universe.

In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said,

yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ

rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ

yasyājñayā bhramatisambhṛta-kāla-cakro

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

It is the description of the sun planet. The sun planet is described as the eyes of all other planets. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. That's a fact. Unless there is sunrise, you cannot see. You may be very proud of your seeing, "Oh, I want to see," but we do not know that our seeing power is limited and conditioned. Unless there is sunrise these eyes are useless. Just like at the present moment, at night, we cannot see even four yards. So what is the value of these eyes? It is conditional. If there is sunrise, then we can see. That condition is made by God. Therefore in the Upaniṣad it is said, "When God sees, you can see. When God walks, you can walk." These are the description in the Upaniṣad. Practically, that is the fact. We are completely helpless, simply dependent upon God. The word that "Not a single blade of grass moves without the sanction of God," that's a fact. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ: "I am living in everyone's heart." Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "From Me there is remembrance and forgetfulness." We sometimes forget and sometimes remember. That is by God's grace. We are practically under the… Not exactly directly, but through His agent, the material agent.

So there are so many things to be understood about God. So we are preaching God consciousness throughout the whole world just to study the science of God. So please do not take us as something sectarian. Just like the science of mathematics or any science you take, that is not localized in one place. Any advanced student, if he wants to know about that science practically, he can go to some country or…, either to preach or to learn. So our coming and going throughout the whole world… We are interested to enlighten people about the science of God. That is our business. And our test of religion is how one has developed God consciousness or love of God. Practically throughout the whole world they are rejecting God. You know also very well. In England there are many, many churches, they are vacant now, redundant. And they are…, in the Parliament they have passed law that these redundant churches can be sold for any other purpose. So it doesn't matter whether one is Christian, one is Hindu, or one is Muslim. Our simple request is that whatever you may be, you make cultivation of God consciousness. That is our program. Scientifically try to understand what is God. And if you consult Vedic literature you'll get very accurate, scientific, authentic information.

So if anyone is serious to understand God, so there is no objection. Just like if one is serious to understand some particular science, he goes to some other university in other country. That does not mean that person is fallen. No. He is searching after that particular scientific knowledge. Similarly, our request is… We invite everyone that "There is great necessity of God consciousness at the present moment throughout the whole world. Without God consciousness, all qualification are useless." That is a Vedic verse: aprāṇasyaiva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. Just like this body. Because there is a minute particle of God's part and parcel, the soul, this body is so valuable. One is "Sir such-and-such," or "Lord such-and-such," and big scientist, big philosopher. Why? Because that spark of God's parcel, part and parcel, is there. As soon as that particle is gone, this body is useless. It may be a body of "Sir such-and-such" or "Lord such-and-such," but it is useless. It is simply a lump of matter. But people are giving more importance to this body, which is nothing but lump of matter. But they have no information. I have traveled so many countries, universities also. There is not a single institution where there is a department where scientific knowledge is being given about understanding God or soul. That is not a very good sign for human civilization. Human civilization is especially meant for understanding God. Therefore in any human civilized society there is system of religion. Religion means, as I have already explained, to abide by the orders of God. It may be a little different from one country to another. Just like in the political state management also, it is not exactly the same. But the obedience to the state is everywhere. The state may be, the constitution may be little different, but the obedience to the state is absolute necessity. Similarly, religion may be different according to time, country, position, understanding, but the obedience to God must be there, obedience to God. Otherwise it is not human civilization.

So this is our program of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We invite all learned scholars, priests, philosophers to combine together and save the world from this falldown, without God consciousness. It is not good at all. That is our request. So I think you all respectable priests and Fathers will kindly help me in this mission, and I shall be very much obliged to you.

Thank you very much. (aside:) Water.

Hanumān: Would you like them to ask you some questions?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hanumān: If you have any question you would like to ask His Divine Grace, you can ask on the subject matter of the lecture.

Guest (1): Your Divine Grace, you referred to the body as simply matter. Do you believe in a life after death for the body, the human body?

Hanumān: "Do you believe in a life after death for the body?" [break]

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. This is experienced in this life also. Just like you had a body of a child. That body is finished, but you are existing. You can remember that you had a body of a child, you had a body of a boy, but that body of the child, body of the boy is no longer existing. You are in a different body, but you know that you are existing. That is the proof that after this body, you will have another body. This is the proof. There is no difficulty to understand. As I am still living in spite of my changing childhood body, babyhood body, boyhood body, youthhood body, so naturally it should be concluded when I give up this body… Actually, I don't give up. The body… There are two kinds of bodies. This is gross body made of the five elements: earth, water, fire air and… And there is subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. Just like we have got shirt and coat. So when we give up this gross body, we are carried by the subtle body to another gross body. So I am not giving up. Actually, I am not giving up this body. I am giving up this… Just like sometimes you give up the coat, but your underwear remains, and you take another coat or…, similarly, my, the subtle body will remain with me so long I am not emancipated or liberated from material condition. So presently when I give up this body, so I am carried by the subtle mind. And at the time of death, the condition of my mind will carry me to a particular type of body. And there are 8,400,000's of bodies. We may accept any of them according… That will be given by superior authority. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Just like in huge, big establishment, management, a man is promoted by the superior authority or sometimes he is degraded, similarly, in this form of human body we have got intelligence to understand about God, about ourself, our relationship with God. If we don't utilize this body for this purpose, there is every possibility to be glided down in the animal kingdom.

Guest (2): What has been written(?) about the future of civilization? Will we have a happy human family ever on the earth, or will there always be conflict between…

Prabhupāda: That we are experiencing. This godless civilization is… There is no peace, although we are improving… Just like I was talking yesterday. We have discovered this airplane, but we have given another chance of danger. What is that? Skyjack? Devotee: Highjack.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. We are making something for our convenience, but we are creating something else which is inconvenient. So this is due to godless civilization. But if we become God conscious, then our progress of civilization will be very peaceful and happy. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ: "Anyone who has got devotion to the Lord, he is qualified with all the good qualities." Just like you are God conscious, so you have invited us to hear because you…, the good qualities are there. So without God consciousness there cannot be any good qualities. We are trying to educate people to be honest, to be gentle, fair-dealing, but actually, the result is people are becoming dishonest, miscreant, rogue, thief, due to (lack of) God consciousness. Just like in the airport, all gentlemen are searched out. What does it mean? That every one of us (is) dishonest. That is to be understood. So what the education has produced? Simply dishonest men. Why? Because godlessness. That's all. And they are trying to become… Every state is trying to become secular: "Don't talk of God. Don't talk of God." Then what you are? That is animal society. The animal society has no talk of God. There is only talk of how to fill up the belly. That's all. That is the business of hog. Śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Viḍ-bhujām means the hogs, the stool-eaters. The stool-eater is also working very hard day and night and gratifying senses. So does the human civilization is meant for imitating the hogs and dogs to work very hard day and night and gratify the senses? That's all? This is the only program at the present moment.

So it doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Hindu. People must be raised to God consciousness scientifically. Otherwise it is doomed. It is not progress. It is already doom. They are simply inviting war after few years. In America, in New York, there is United Nations. They are spending millions of dollars every month, but they cannot stop war. Simply the flag is increasing. That's all. Because it is godless. They may talk all big, big words in the assembly, but at heart they are all dishonest, politicians. And God consciousness means cleansed heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. "I am servant of God." That is wanted. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. This is the definition given in Vedic literature, that "If anyone develops God consciousness, then all the good qualities will develop automatically. And you give him all kinds of education, but if he is godless, it is all useless." That is compared with decorating the dead body. Just like dead body. A dead body is decorated. So it may be a satisfaction for the relatives, but what is the use of it, decorating a dead body? Bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ japas tapaḥ kriyaḥ: "Great nationality, great work, great achievement, minus bhagavad-bhakti, God consciousness, is just like decorating the dead body." That's all. What is the use of decorating the dead body? Because actually this body is dead. As soon as the soul is away from this body, it is a lump of matter. So when the soul is off from the body, if somebody decorates that dead body, what is use? It is simply concoction. That's all. Therefore according to Vedic system, as soon as a body is dead, there is no question of decorating. Immediately burn it and finish. Make it into ashes. That's all. The body has no importance. Real, the soul is important, the living force. So we have no education about that living force, and the original living force is Kṛṣṇa, or God. So we have no information. So therefore this education is very, very essential, at least at the present moment. You may educate in any way-Christian way, Hindu way, Muslim-but educate all the people about God consciousness. Otherwise there is doom.

Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? At the beginning you mentioned a question. Śukadeva Gosvāmī was asked, "If, after the disappearance of Kṛṣṇa…"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Munayo sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam. When a question about Kṛṣṇa, or God, he congratulated them, "My dear sages, your question is very welcome because it is the question of God." So there may be questions, but every sincere man must question what is God and try to learn it. That will bring auspicity all over the world. Simply in schools, colleges, in business, in assembly, in society there must be some discussion about God. Then it will be very much auspicious for all the world. There must be some question. The question may be offered in the beginning, but if the question is sincere and if he takes the answer sincerely, then he will understand about God. So therefore he welcomed,

munayo sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ

bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam

yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno

yenātmā suprasīdati

"My dear sages, you have inquired about Kṛṣṇa. It is very welcome because it is auspicious." Kṛṣṇa-sampraśno. "And by question and answer in this subject matter, you'll feel satisfaction." Yenātmā samprasīdati. Simply by question-answer, you feel satisfaction. And when you understand, oh, you feel the supreme satisfaction, the bliss. But simply in the period of question and answer you feel satisfaction. Yenātmā suprasīdati. Therefore in schools, colleges, assemblies, societies-everywhere-there must be questions of "What is God? What I am? What is my relation?" These should be answered scientifically and understood scientifically. Then there will be peace. Otherwise there is no possibility.

Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, we can know something about God, either through our sense knowledge or true concept, etc., but how do we know God, if I can make that distinction? You know? God isn't something that can be sensed and He isn't something that can be grasped by the finite mind. The infinite, as you said… But how do we know God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is unapproachable by your mental concoction. But there is another process: if you understand God by this the paramparā system. Just like on this roof there is some sound, and every one of us making some suggestion what is the sound: "This may be like this. This may be like that. This may be like that." This is one process of knowledge, to understand the unseen by speculation. This is one. It may be successful or may not be successful. There is no certainty. But if somebody from the roof says, "The sound is due to this," then our knowledge is perfect. Similarly, if we speculate about God, who is Adhokṣaja, who is beyond the range of our mind and speculation, then it is very… Then we can come to the conclusion of Brahman realization, impersonal God, no more than. But if we hear from God or His representative, then we get perfect knowledge of God.

Guest (3): Well even in revealed religion, where we have the scripture, say, a Vedic scripture or Jewish or Christian scripture, it's still being put into human words and therefore become circumscribed again. And so it seems to me that you've still got the same problem even in revealed religion-that it's not God. It's something short of God.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like in the Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation." Is it not? It is fact. It is fact. Now you find out who created this universe. If you deny this fact, "No. God does not create," then you explain how it was created. So there is no difference between Bible and Vedic literature. We accept also, "God created." But in the Vedic literature you will find how God created. That you'll find. So if you are actually serious to understand how God created, why don't you come to Vedic literature? That is the duty of every student. If you are after the knowledge, why should you stick to one particular place or…? If the knowledge is available in other places, you must have it. That is inquisitiveness, seriousness. But if you say, "No. We are Christian. We have studied Bible. That is all. We do not touch," I don't think that is very nice conclusion. You remain Christian, but what is the harm to study other literatures where more informations are there? That is quite reasonable. We are not asking you to become Hindus. We simply want to, everyone, that you become God conscious. That is our mission. Our mission is not that to convert. What is the use of converting? If my habits are the same… Suppose I am Hindu. I become Christian, but my habits are not changed. Then what is the use of becoming from Hindu or Christian or to Christian or Hindu?

Now, our principle is that if you want to understand God, then you must be sinless, because God is pure. Anyone who is sinful, he cannot understand God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

That is the secret. You see? If your eyes covered with something, how you can see things perfectly? Similarly, we have got many dirty things within our heart due to our so many sinful activities. That should be cleansed. Then immediately, as the mirror, when it is clean you can see your face nicely… But if the mirror is full, overcast with dust, you cannot. Therefore there is a process. We must adopt this process. So anyone who is adopting this process, they are understanding very quickly the science of God. The sum and substance of this process (is) that we should be freed from sinful activities. That's all. Then God realization will be very easy. But if you surrender to God fully, then God will help you to become free from all sinful activities. There are two processes. Either you try to become sinless by your efforts, but if you think that you are unable, then you simply surrender to God, and He will help you. He will help you. He says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

[Bg. 18.66]

One thing is that nobody can understand God if he is sinful. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that "You surrender unto Me. I shall help you how to get rid of the resultant action of your sinful life." So to approach God, either you become sinless by your own efforts or you simply surrender unto God, and He will help you to become sinless. Whichever you like. He is giving full freedom. He is asking that you surrender. He is not forcing. God can force you-He is all-powerful-but He doesn't interfere with your independence. Because we are part and parcel of God-God is fully independent-so we have got also little particle of independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, disobey the words of God, we become sinful.

Guest (4): When one becomes sinless, would he then experience the indwelling of God?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. That is the platform of understanding God.

Guest (5): And this indwelling of God urges one to go out into the world and other people in love, a love which not only seeks to…

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. If you are serious to understand God, then God will help you also. He is within you. He'll help you. Yes.

Guest (6): Swami, in the Christian history, one of the people that many of us look up to was a man called Francis of Assisi, and he talks about knowing God, and he rates it up with experiences such as on the occasion on which he embraced the leper. And he says, "If this, we turn to our fellow man with an attitude like this, then we are not reaching God, or God consciousness." And this is in line with one of the central teachings of the Christian scriptures, which is that if any man says he loves God and does not love his neighbor, then that man is a liar.

Prabhupāda: No. If actually one loves God, he must love everyone. That is the sign. That is the sign. Just like my heart is now thirsty. I am quenching with drinking water and putting here. So as soon as put this water here, immediately the energy distributed all over the body. So a God conscious person cannot be neglectful or envious to anyone. That is the test. This is test. Sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. All good qualities. So this is a good quality, love your neighbor, to give them service. So if actually one person is God conscious, he must be sympathetic with the troubles of his neighbor, or anyone, not only human being. Animals also. They are also living entities. A God conscious person has no discrimination between human being and animal or trees or plants because they are also living entities.

Guest (7): Swamijī, an old guest has been wandering around. He's called Fred Robinson. He's been forecasting doom to happen very shortly for the human race and says that it is far too hopeless to try and grab for the spiritual plane until one goes back to the land, back to simple living and where one just makes one's task to supply food for the children, the new children of the new age. And then yoga and the spiritual disciplines will flow much easier. What would you say to that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are also distributing food. Yes. In our Māyāpur daily we are distributing food to two thousand, three thousand. So that is one of our program, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distributing prasādam. We are distributing… When I started this movement I was cooking myself and distributing prasāda. But we do not discriminate that "He is needy…" Everyone is needy. So actually, everyone is in need of spiritual understanding. So by distributing food, the spiritual food, simply by eating, he will be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even if he does not do anything. But actually, we are inviting persons to come, sit down, chant with us Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasādam and go home. That's all. This is our program. So prasādam is already included. And there is the question of needy men. So we invite any needy man to come and join with us, and we shall feed him. That's all. We invite anyone. But they do not like to come to us to chant. That is the difficulty. "Oh, we'll have to go there and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So they are afraid. So what can I do? We invite everyone, "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dance with us, and when you are hungry, take some food. We are prepared to give you." So our program is very easy. And actually, these boys and girls, they were not advised in the beginning to become my initiated student. I simply invited, "You please come." I was chanting in the Tompkinson Park in New York, and many of them were coming. So I invited them, "Please come with me. Take some prasādam." So they used to take that. In this way, gradually, they developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and after some time they proposed, "Swamijī, make me your disciple," initiation. So I said that "You have to follow the rules and regulations." They agreed, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. If you are prepared, then I accept you." They are prepared. They given up. I accept them. That's all. Yes.

Guest (8) Swamijī, something you said was the connection between the necessity for obedience to the state and necessity for their obedience to God. To take an example that occurs to many young man in this country, and I suppose in America, the question of military service arises where the state demands their absolute obedience, and many young people feels this clashes with their obedience to God. How do you advise people to resolve this sort of conflict?

Śyāmasundara: About the draft. If one has to obey the state and go to war, how is that the same as obeying God?

Prabhupāda: Well, God consciousness does not prohibit war, but it must be for the right cause. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā we see that the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā was given to Arjuna in the battlefield. And in the beginning Arjuna did not like to fight. He was a good, good man, religious man, devotee. Naturally, he was not inclined to fight with his relatives, kinsmen. He said, "Kṛṣṇa, the opposite side, they are all my brothers and nephews and fathers and grandfathers. So there is no use of fighting like this, to kill them and take the… Let… Let them enjoy." That was his conclusion. But Kṛṣṇa induced them, induced Arjuna, "No. This is the right cause. You must fight." So similarly, war is not always bad. Nothing is bad, nothing is good, unless it is used for God. That's it. Our philosophy is everything is good. God is all-good. So if He advises to fight, that is also good. But we shall depend on the discretion of God. If God wants us to fight, then we shall fight. If God wants us to stop fight, then we shall not fight. Because we are surrendered to God, so whatever God orders, we have to do. That's all. We don't say, "This is good; this is bad." Whatever God says, that is good. What God does not say, prohibit, that is bad. This is our conclusion.

Guest (8): The question remains of how is one to tell what God says, and many, many people have been brought up to believe that you find what God says by asking what does the state say. Now, as I understand the Christian tradition, it was quite different to that. The conscience coming from God can often bring you into conflict with the state, as Jesus himself found. Now, I think I understand what you are saying about the Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa can say a certain war is good because it's right. But in today's circumstances the question still remains of can you find what God thinks or God says by finding out what the state wants and…

Prabhupāda: God says… For the time being you are not in direct touch with God, but you can follow the Biblical instruction. God's agent, Lord Jesus Christ, says-you follow that. The ten commandments are there. Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." So you should not kill. Why should you kill? You follow this instruction, God's representative. Then you gradually develop your God consciousness.

Guest (8): But you haven't answered the question about the conflict between the state and God. You haven't taken that at all.

Upendra: He's giving an analogy that as one must follow… He wasn't saying that necessarily we have to follow all the dictates of the state. Prabhupāda was giving the analogy just as one follows the dictate of the state, one also must follow the dictates of God. I believe that was the analogy. It wasn't that he was supporting the dictates of the state or in accordance with… [break]

Hanumān: So we thank you very much for your kindness to receive our spiritual master(?), and we will request you to come and visit us. We have a temple, 14 Bernard Street in (indistinct). You're always welcome. We are… There is not many place you go in town, you go in some street, go in a store, they will ask you some money. They will give you some service but they will ask you some money. But you can come at 14 Bernard St., you can come, eat with us, and pass the day with us, talk with us. We are your servant. So you are most welcome. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: We would like to thank Swami Prabhupāda for his kindness and extreme gentleness in coming to us. We've listened with respect to the words of life (indistinct) warmed my heart, anyway, and gave me hope for a family of human brothers to which we belong. I think we are closer to one another now, to the devotees of the temple. It's very beautiful coming here tonight, and I certainly feel that this little meeting, the human brothers under a (indistinct), of particular inspiration or coming in contact with a God whom we're all reaching out for but who has many faces. Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

720414LE.AUC

Town Hall Lecture

Auckland, April 14, 1972

Prabhupāda: Śrīman Hanumān-prasāda Gosvāmī, he has spoken something about Kṛṣṇa's representative. So naturally, question may be raised that how I became Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa appeared five thousand years ago. I am recently born, say, seventy-six years ago. How I became Kṛṣṇa's representative, this question may be raised. But the answer is also there, ready. We have got a disciplic succession: from Kṛṣṇa, Brahmā; from Brahmā, Nārada; from Nārada, Vyāsadeva; from Vyāsadeva, Madhvācārya; from Madhvācārya, so many disciplic succession. Later, five hundred years ago, Mādhavendra Purī, in the line of Madhvācārya. Then his disciple, Īśvara Purī, his disciple, Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya we consider Him Kṛṣṇa Himself, but He also accepted a spiritual master, Īśvara Purī. So Lord Caitanya is everyone's spiritual master, but for the sake of formality, He also accepted a spiritual master so that others may learn that this is essential.

In the Vedic scriptures, Kathopaniṣad, it is said, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Upaniṣad, whatever is spoken in the Upaniṣad that is gospel truth. That is the system of understanding transcendental knowledge, veda-pramāṇa, evidence from the Vedas. According to Vedic system, amongst the learned scholars, if one presents Vedic evidences, then his position is strong. Just like in law court, two lawyers are arguing. One lawyer who quotes from the lawbook various bona fide quotations, the judgment is given in his favor because that is authorized. Similarly, a Vedic statement is accepted in Indian spiritual society. There are hundreds and thousands of men who are still dedicated. Practically the whole population of India, they are dedicated to spiritual life. Perhaps you may not know, but anyone who has taken birth in India, he has got a natural inheritance of spiritual life. Unfortunately, at the present moment the leaders are under wrong impression that in India, being too much spiritually inclined, its material advancement has been checked. But material advancement does not become hampered by spiritual knowledge. That is a wrong impression. Rather, if you become spiritually advanced, your material necessities will be very nicely adjusted. That is the injunction, Bhagavad-gītā, yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi-da. Yoga… Spiritual life means yoga. So yogic life can be very nicely successful if you adjust your material necessities of life. If you become extravagant so far your material necessities of life is concerned, then you cannot make successful in yogic life.

So there are so many rules and regulations. Those who are interested in yoga, you will find in the authorized books, yoga indriya-saṁyamaḥ: "The aim of yogic power, yogic success, is to control the senses." Our senses in this material world have been described as venomous serpents. Indriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Kāla-sarpa, cobra, black cobra. So these indriyas are like that. Indriya means senses. As soon as touches, immediately it makes him poisonous. And that is the cause of our material conditional life. The more we are indulging unrestrictedly in sense gratification, we are becoming more and more entangled. Therefore those who are very much addicted to the bodily necessities of life, for them this haṭha-yoga system… Haṭha-yoga system means yama, niyama, aṣṭāṅga-yoga. It is called aṣṭāṅga-yoga. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, pratyāhāra, samādhi. These things are in the aṣṭāṅga-yoga. The first thing is yama-niyama. One must have regulated life. That is called yama-niyama. Then practice āsana. There is mechanical process of sitting which will help you; concentration of the mind, āsana. Then praṇāyāma, concentration of the mind. Then meditation. So meditation is not so easy thing. Unless you practice the preliminary necessities of meditation, you cannot concentrate. Even if you sit down closing your eyes, either you will sleep or you will think of other things which are more important, you think, more important in your life. So the yoga system is practically not very helpful. Helpful means we cannot execute this system very nicely.

So this paramparā system, the subject I was discussing, that how I become the representative of Kṛṣṇa, it is not very difficult. Everyone can become a representative of Kṛṣṇa provided he exactly presents what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. Just like a peon, he is also representative of the postal department, ordinary peon. How he becomes representative of the whole postal system? If he delivers your letter or money order without mishandling it, as it is. You have… Some friend has sent you some money order. He gives you the paper, you sign, and he pays you. But if he pilfers the method(?), then he is no longer representative. He becomes thief, rogue. So representative of Kṛṣṇa is also in the same way. If you present Kṛṣṇa's word as it is, without pilfering, without any adulteration, then you become Kṛṣṇa's representative. There is no difficulty. But, unfortunately, people want to show their scholarship, that "I understand Bhagavad-gītā from this angle of vision." Why should you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā from a different angle of vision? The first preference should be given to the author. The author has given you some knowledge, so he has got some particular aim and objective. So why should you change that? You have no right to change that. If you want to speak something from your side, you write your own book. Why should you take advantage of the popular book of Bhagavad-gītā and misrepresent it? That is the fun. You see? There are about six hundred different types of editions commenting on Bhagavad-gītā. But according to Bhagavad-gītā, all these six hundred editions in different, studied from different angle of vision, they are all absurd and nonsense. It is very difficult. People have been misled by the so-called commentaries. There is no need of unnecessarily commenting on certain things. There is no necessity. Commentary or interpretation required when things are not very clear. Then you can suggest, "The meaning may be like this." But when the things are clear, why should you comment? There is no necessity of comment. Just like, for example-this is also from Sanskrit scholar's example-that gaṅgāyaṁ ghoṣapalli. Gaṅgāyam: "On the Ganges there is a neighborhood which is known as Ghoṣapalli." Now, this statement is in your front. So one may question that "The river Ganges is water. How there can be a neighborhood which is known as Ghoṣapalli? On the water how there can be a quarter or neighborhood of human habitation?" You can question that. Gaṅgāyaṁ ghoṣapalli. Then the interpretation should be, "No, not on the Ganges. 'On the Ganges' means 'on the bank of the Ganges.' " This interpretation is nice. When one cannot understand clearly, there is interpretation. But when the matter is clear… Just like sunlight. The sunlight, sunshine, does it require your lamp to show the sunlight? The sunlight is itself so illuminous that everyone can understand, "This is sunlight." If somebody brings some lamp, "I will show you the sun," sun is already visible. Why your lamp is required? So these unauthorized commentators, they bring some lamp to show the sunlight of Bhagavad-gītā. That is their business.

Therefore people have been misled. There is no question. Just like in the beginning Bhagavad-gītā says,

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

[Bg. 1.1]

This is very clear. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre. Kurukṣetra is a place which is still a place of pilgrimage. The Hindus, those who are followers of Vedic rites, they go there. They perform religious rituals. And there is Vedic injunction, kuru-kṣetre dharmam ācaret, dharma yajet, like that, that "If you want to perform some religious rituals, better go to Kurukṣetra." So Kurukṣetra is from the Vedic age. Millions of years, from time immemorial, it is a dharma-kṣetra. And still it is there. There is a station, railway station, called Kurukṣetra near Delhi, about hundred miles away from Delhi. So these are facts. Why there should be interpretation? These are facts. Why there should be… It is clear. Dharma-kṣetra is… Kurukṣetra is dharma-kṣetra, and historical fact is māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Two groups of cousin brothers, they wanted to fight to settle up. Formerly the war was declared-the leader of the war, if he is killed, then the other party is victorious. Not that unnecessarily killing the civil citizens, no. This was nonsense. If there was fight between two kings, the citizens, they were unaffected, not that there is fight now between two parties, there is immediately siren, (imitates siren:) gaw, gaw, gaw, gaw, now bomb and the civil…, the most uncivilized way of war. In those days-those days means at least five thousand years ago-they selected a place, and "Let us fight and decide our fate," kṣatriyas. Why the public should suffer? So in this way Kurukṣetra was selected to fight between the two parties. And still it is existing. It is a great field. And dharma-kṣetre… Just try to understand that there is no need of our imperfect comments on the Bhagavad-gītā. That is my point.

So dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavaḥ. This yuyutsavaḥ word is now used in Japanese language also. That artificial fight, what is called? Yuyutsavaḥ?

Śyāmasundara: Jujitsu.

Devotee: Judo.

Prabhupāda: Yuyutsavaḥ, it is called yuyutsavaḥ. So yuyutsavaḥ means when two parties are fighting, they are called yuyutsavaḥ, "Desiring to fight, they prepared." So actually these two groups of brothers, cousin brothers, they assembled there for fighting to decide their fate. So everything is clear. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā [Bg. 1.1], assembled, yuyutsavaḥ, for fighting. And who are they? It is the question of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, the father of the Duryodhana, and he is asking his private secretary, Sañjaya. Sañjaya was relaying the fight in the battlefield, and Dhṛtarāṣṭra was blind. Just like television. So he was seeing the fight from the heart. It means there is still more finer science, that you don't require machine to see it by television, what is going outside. You can see within your heart. So this Sañjaya was seeing the battle, and he was relaying to Dhṛtarāṣṭra.

So point is that every word of Bhagavad-gītā, that is fact, historical, and very nicely composed and spoken by the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa, who is accepted by all parties as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are parties of spiritual life in India. Just like Śaṅkarācārya's party, they are coming from very old time. I am speaking of the recent, modern age, say, within two thousand years. Modern means within two thousand years. Śaṅkarācārya age is about fifteen hundred years. Similarly, Rāmānujācārya about eleven hundred years; Madhvācārya about seven hundred years. In this way there are, they are coming from that paramparā system. One paramparā system is coming from Brahma. Another paramparā system is coming from Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune. Another paramparā system is coming from Lord Śiva. Another paramparā system is coming from the Kumāras-they were unmarried, brahmacārīs, sons of Brahmā. So those paramparā system, line of disciplic succession, are still existing in India. Practically, India's spiritual life is still being controlling by these lines of disciplic succession. So all these ācāryas, according to the Vaiṣṇava ācārya… Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, there are four ācāryas. Śrī Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, and Viṣṇu Svāmī. And those who are not Vaiṣṇavas, impersonalists, they are represented by Śaṅkarācārya. Even Śaṅkarācārya, from whom we differ in philosophical discussion… Not very much different-so far the procedure is concerned, the regulative principles are concerned, they are all the same. The only difference is that Śaṅkarācārya's sampradāya, they take the ultimate Absolute Truth as impersonal, and we Vaiṣṇavas, we take the Absolute Truth as person. But Śaṅkarācārya, in his later stage, he also admitted in a different way. He said in his last prayer to the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ

bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate

samprāpte sannihite kāle marane

na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛñ-karaṇe

So he said to his disciples, "You foolish, mūḍha-mate…"-mūḍha-mate means "you rascals and fools"-"you just take to Govinda. You just worship Govinda, personal Govinda." Bhaja govindam, three times. Three times means he is giving stress. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate: three times. Prāpte sannihite kāle marane: "When your death will be near, at the point of your death," na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛñ-karaṇe. Ḍukṛñ-karaṇe means a grammatical jugglery, that "This word should be interpreted like this. This word should be interpreted like this." So, "This fight of interpretation will not save you. Better from the very beginning you worship Govinda. That will save you." This is his instruction. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate. And so far we are concerned, Vaiṣṇavas, we all accept govinda, ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi, Govinda, the Supreme Person, the original Personality Godhead, govindam.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

The summum…, the cause of all causes, the supreme controller, is Kṛṣṇa. And that Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are presenting all over the world. And this Hanumān Gosvāmī has given me the credit that I am representing Kṛṣṇa.

So it is not very ordinary job, neither ordinary position, but it is not difficult also. The difficulty is when I adulterate and misinterpret Kṛṣṇa's words. Then it is difficult. Otherwise, if I say… The same example: like a peon, if I present your friend's letter without any correction, then I have done my duty. That's all. So it is not difficult. Anyone can deliver a letter to you. It does not require any educational qualification. Simply he must be honest not to alter the text of the letter according to the peon's whims. That much we are doing. Therefore I am representative. Try to under… And anyone can do this. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "My dear Arjuna, I am the Supreme. There is no better, no more anyone superior than Me." That's all right. We accept that. Now, you can say "How we accept?" I accept because it is Vedic injunction. That is the process of Vedic injunction: you have to accept without argument. Just like for practical life I will say some examples, that cow dung. In India cow dung is accepted as very pure. So in one place of the Vedic injunction you will find that "Any stool of animal is impure." That's a fact. Everyone knows. Even your own stool, what to speak of other animals'-impure. But in another place says, "Exception is given to the cow's stool, cow dung. That is pure." It is so pure that if you apply on some impure place, it becomes pure. That's a fact. In India still, especially in villages, they mop the floor with cow dung, and it is so nice and so fresh. You can try. Here also there are cows. You take cow dung and you can see how it is antiseptic. We are actually doing in America in our New Vrindaban. We are maintaining cows there, protecting cows, because cow protection is one of the items for Kṛṣṇa consciousness people. Especially Kṛṣṇa is worshiped,

namo brahmaṇya-devāya

go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca

jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya

govindāya namo namaḥ

He is immediately referred that "You are brahmaṇya-deva go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, the benedictor of the cows and the brāhmaṇas." Why? Jagad… "Next You are benedictor to the general people in the world. First the go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca." Why? Why Kṛṣṇa should be especially interested with go and brāhmaṇa? These are things. Now, when Kṛṣṇa was child, He was crawling. This is His pastime. By crawling He used to go to the cowshed and catch one calf's tail, and the calf will drag Him and smear His body in cow dung. He enjoyed it. So cow dung is actually so pure. You can test it. One chemical analyzer in Calcutta, Dr. Lal Madhavi(?) Ghosh, he tested. He found all antiseptic properties, although it is stool. So that is the nature of Vedic injunction. You accept it. You are benefited. You save the time. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, if you accept, then you don't require to make research how to find out God or how to find out yourself. Everything is there simply if you accept it. Not blindly. If you want to test it, you can test. Just like this cow dung. In the Vedas it is said it is pure, but if you want to test chemically, you will find it pure. That is Vedic injunction.

Therefore our Vedic injunctions are very supreme evidence, Veda-pramāṇam, śabda-pramāṇam. There are three kinds of evidences. First evidence is direct perception-I see personally. And then historical evidence, and then śabda-pramāṇa. Śabda-pramāṇa means evidence from the Vedas. Out of three kinds of evidences, the śabda-pramāṇas, or the evidences received from the Vedas, that is accepted. So for spiritual advancement especially we have to accept the Veda-pramāṇa, or evidences given in Vedic literature. So this disciplic succession, as Gosvāmī Hanumān Prasād said, that is essential. That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This word abhigacchet, it is a form of verb which is used where the sense is "You must! You must!" There is no exception. You cannot say that "I may go to a spiritual master or I may not go. I can study at home." No. You must go. Just like in modern age also, if you (are) actually interested to be recognized as educated, you must get your admission in a recognized school or college and take degree. Then you will… If you study at home, you may be very great scholar, and if you say that you have passed M.A. examination, nobody will care for you. Similarly, if you actually want to be advanced in spiritual knowledge, then this is the injunction: tad-vijñānārtham. Tad-vijñānārtham means… Vijñāna means science. Spiritual knowledge is also a science. It is not sentiment; it is science. Now, if you like, you can make research work whether this is fact. Just like this cow dung. You may think that "This is contradiction. In one place it is said that stool of an animal is impure; now here it is again said that cow dung is pure. It is contradiction." So if you like, you can make analysis. But you accept the Vedic injunction as it is-you save so much time, that's all, and immediately become advanced.

Therefore the Veda says that in order to learn that spiritual science, you must approach a person, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva [MU 1.2.12], who is guru. Guru means spiritual master. And who is spiritual master? Who abides by the disciplic succession. He does not change. He does not interpret. He presents things as they are. Just like we are doing. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says that… For spiritual realization, He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Kṛṣṇa says that "Always think of Me." Man-manā. Man-manā means "about Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You just become My devotee." So we are teaching our students in that way, how to think of Kṛṣṇa always. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. [break] …walk on the street, and if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you remember Kṛṣṇa. There is no tax for it. There is no loss for it. Suppose if you are free, traveling on the bus or on the train, you have got time. So instead of reading so many news from the newspaper, if you utilize… The newspaper means the repeated things. Every morning you see something: "Somebody has stolen, somebody was killed, some political leaders have bluffed you," and so many things, the same thing, repetition of the same thing. This is also repetition, Hare Kṛṣṇa, but by this repetition, you enlighten your spiritual life. And by that repetition, you simply waste your time, that carvita-carvaṇānām. So after reading your newspaper, you throw it away. It has no… After one hour of its publication, it has no value. But this Bhagavad-gītā, it was spoken five thousand, years ago, still they are being read with respect and honor. So this kind of literature should be read, not a literature which is printed and you read and glance over and throw it away. So that is man-manā, thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, "You become My devotee." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī: "You worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru: "Offer your obeisances unto Me." Now, all these items, there is no expenditure, and anyone can do. Even the child can do. What is the difficulty? Factually our children, Kṛṣṇa conscious children, do that. The father-mother offers obeisances, and the child imitates-he also offers obeisance, bows down. So this offering obeisances to Kṛṣṇa will not go in vain. It will have effect. So it is inexpensive. It is very simple, without any loss. Suppose you have got a picture of Kṛṣṇa and you simply think of the picture, man-manā, and you offer a little lamp, a little incense, and if you don't offer, if you simply offer your respect, what is your loss? Is there any loss? [break] We are all businessmen. We calculate everything in terms of loss and profit. So there is no loss. That's a fact. But if there is any profit, why don't you try it? If there is any profit… There is profit. These boys, these European and American boys who are with me, there are hundreds and thousands of them… They have sacrificed their life. Unless there is some profit… They are not fools. They are not coming of foolish parents or foolish nation. Unless there is some profit, how they are doing? There must be some profit. So without any investment of your money, without losing your time, if you get some spiritual profit, why don't you take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? That is our plea. We are imploring everyone. If you think that there are many objection, "If I keep one picture of Kṛṣṇa or I offer Him something, fruits and flowers," all right, don't do that. But what is the objection if you chant? You have got freedom, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all right, simply Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

The point is that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is; therefore I am representative of Kṛṣṇa. If you do that, you become also representative of Kṛṣṇa. So it is not very difficult. Don't think it is a very hard job: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so great personality, God, and how one can become His representative?" No. Anyone can become His representative provided he follows the Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That's all. Anyone. Actually they are doing that. They are representative. Not only I, but they are also. Every one of our members, they are Kṛṣṇa's representative. They are not trying to malinterpret. As there are so many so-called scholars… When this verse is translated and commented upon by big scholar… I do not wish to utter his name. He is very big man. But now he is living dead. Because he has committed so many offenses, now he is living, but he has lost his memory. Very recently I went to see him. He cannot… He is like that. So all his intelligence is finished. So nature is so strong that you can malinterpret, but nature is so strong that one day he will make you forget everything, brain paralysis. So how you are going to interpret the powerful nature? That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ya prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

[Bg. 7.14]

Daivī hy eṣā. You cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature. That is not possible. Practically, the modern so-called scientific world, they are trying to conquer over the laws of nature. That is not possible. You forget that. Peacefully forget that. It is not possible. You will never be able. Because we believe in the words of Vedic scripture, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], you cannot conquer over the laws… [break] "…conquer over the laws of nature, then my liberation is stopped. How it will be possible?" Yes, you can do that. Kṛṣṇa says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who fully surrenders unto Me, he can overcome the stringent laws of nature." See practically. The laws of nature, the āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam… Apart from other laws of nature, I become hungry; I require to eat something. I require to sleep. I require to have sense gratification. So these are laws of nature. But people who are accustomed to bad habits, it is very difficult to overcome them. But those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are actually overcoming the stringent laws of nature. These are practical.

So our becoming the representative of Kṛṣṇa is not very difficult job because we do not misinterpret the readings of Bhagavad-gītā. We accept them as it is. If there is some doubt… There cannot be any doubt. It may be due to my poor fund of knowledge I cannot understand it-that we should admit. The lines, as stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, they are as perfect as anything. But if I cannot understand it, that is my lack of knowledge, my poor fund of knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has suggested or ordered in this Bhagavad-gītā,

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

Because there may be some difficulty. Just like here Kṛṣṇa says that gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 2.11]. He is ordering completely that the subject matter of this body is not very important thing. The most important thing is to understand about the spirit soul which is within the body. But at the present moment the whole world is giving simply stress on the body. Just like last night there was question, that to serve the humanity. Yes, serve the humanity… Is it not a service to the humanity to give real knowledge? But the service to the body is not neglected. Just like we are giving this knowledge to the world. It does not mean that we are starving or anyone who comes to us, he will starve. In our Māyāpur center daily one hundred men are being fed. And in our Bombay center… Similarly, in our Los Angeles… In all centers our temple is open. Any man can come and eat and live with us. Here also, we have opened temple. We invite anyone. If one person thinks that he is in scarcity or he has no… I don't think in your country such person is there. But still, if there is, he is cordially invited, "Please come and live with us. We shall supply all, everything, necessities of life." But you shall have to live with us as we live. That's all. That is the only condition.

So there is no scarcity if we believe in Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then there will be no scarcity. Actually there is no scarcity. You have been already informed that we have got ninety-five centers and we are spending seventy to eighty thousand dollars per month. But we have no fixed-up income. We are traveling all over the world with party. You can imagine. This is very expensive job. But Kṛṣṇa is supplying us all our necessities. Why not? If you are serving for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, why He will not supply you? Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to everyone, those who are not devotees, and why not to the devotees? What we have done? Those who have denied the existence of God, they are also being fed by Kṛṣṇa, or God. And we are preaching the glories of God. Why we shall be in want? That is not possible. And actually we are not. So this is not very important subject matter. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, automatically, if you take care of the spiritual side of your existence, the material side of your existence will be automatically taken care, automatically. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ [Bg. 2.11]. The so far the body is concerned, either it is dead… Dead, so far dead body is concerned, everyone knows that now it is useless. But even the living body's function, that is also useless. Because, after all, it is useless. It is useful so long the spirit soul is there. Therefore the spirit soul is important, not this body. So actual knowledge means to understand what is the spirit soul, what is its nature, what is its necessity, how it is living, what is the ultimate goal. So many things are there. But unfortunately, there is no educational institution. We are trying with little effort to give this education to the people. It is essential because Kṛṣṇa says, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca. So far material part of our existence is concerned, there are so many institutions or so many government. They are taking… Just like take, for example, hospital. There are hundreds and thousands of hospital, but where is the hospital for treating the spirit soul? They have no knowledge. They have no knowledge even, what to speak of hospital. This is the hospital. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple is the hospital for the diseased spirit soul. And everyone is diseased. Come to this hospital. We shall take care of you and cure your material disease.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Before you have the opportunity to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda any questions, we'd just like to tell all of you that we have opened a temple now in… [break]

Guest (1): Prabhupāda, in the Christian faith there is the idea that God made it possible for life to be created. He made it possible for the processes of the universe to continue. Is this the same with Kṛṣṇa? Does He make it possible for these things to happen or does He make them happen, or does…? Does He create the universe?

Prabhupāda: What is, that question?

Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa create the universe or does He just make it possible to be created?

Prabhupāda: No, the universe, this material world, is created by God. That's a fact. But if the question is that whether God has created this body for suffering in this material world, that is not God's creation; that is our creation. Just like the government creates the prison house. That does not mean that government wants that somebody should be criminals and fill up this prison house. It is a freedom to the citizens. Government creates university also, or government creates prison house also. But it is your freedom. You make your choice: either you go to the university or you go to the prison house. It is your choice. Just like government opens some liquor shop, gives license. That does not mean that government is encouraging drinking. The liquor shop is there. Those who are drunkards, they can go. That's a facility. That's all. Otherwise, that is not encouragement. Similarly, the… When God created this material world… I think in your Bible also it is said that the Adam and Eve, the forbidden apple… That means He made some rules and regulations, "Do this; do not this." And if you do this, what is not sanctioned, then you suffer. God forbade not to eat the apple-I do not know actually-but by the request of Eve, Adam ate it, and he became conditioned. Similarly-it may be story-but the fact is that God created this world. That's a fact. And He created the rules and regulation also. That is called Vedic knowledge. And in the Vedic knowledge there are injunctions: "You do this; you do not do this." If you follow the Vedic knowledge, then you have come to this world for enjoyment, so your regulated enjoyment will satisfy your senses; at the same time, you will be able to go back to home, back to Godhead, again. But if you do not follow the regulative principles, if you simply try to enjoy, exploit, this material world, then you will be implicated. So in the beginning you may come in this material world as Brahma, and gradually, by your propensities, you may glide down to become the insect of stool. That is… That responsibility is yours. That is not God's responsibility. You can elevate yourself. Just like at the present moment we have got this human form of body. We can hear the instruction of God, and we can again elevate. That is possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

[Bg. 4.9]

Therefore as we are representative of God, we are canvassing door to door, "Please become Kṛṣṇa conscious and make your life successful." That's all. Now it is up to you to take it or reject it. That is your business. Our business is to canvass. The representative goes to secure business door to door. Somebody purchases; somebody does not. So that is not representative's concern. Similarly, our concern is that we shall dedicate our life to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world. Now it is up to you to accept it or not to accept it.

Guest (2): How do you relate Christ with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Christ has already explained. He is son of God. And Kṛṣṇa, we accept He's God.

Guest (2): What does Kṛṣṇa say?

Prabhupāda: God.

Woman (1): Your Divine Grace, I would like to ask you. I know that Kṛṣṇa is very merciful, and He has allowed us many, many births. Do we take these births in a human form all the time, or perhaps do we take a birth in perhaps an ant or a rat or a dog, or will it always be in the human form if we believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness now?

Prabhupāda: If you believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even if you are not successful to finish the business of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this life, next life your birth is guaranteed as human being, either in a very rich family or in a very pure family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ. Just like every one of us, we are trying to be successful in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Suppose that due to some reason we fall down. There is possibility because māyā, illusory nature, is very, very strong. So we may become victim. So there is no… This question was raised by Arjuna, and it was replied by Kṛṣṇa. So there is no question of wrong. A person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness… Everyone should try to finish this business. Why one should wait for another life? We have got this opportunity. Let us finish. And what is the difficulty to remain always thinking of Kṛṣṇa? Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. And the process is very simple. That I already explained: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So adopt this process. Then your… In this life you get Kṛṣṇa. But even if you are not successful, then a Kṛṣṇa conscious person is guaranteed next life human form of life, and that is also either in very rich family or… Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. Śucīnām means very pure family, and śrīmatāṁ means śrī-mat, fortunate, rich. Śrī means riches, and mat means possession, one who possesses. There are so many suffix. So anyone who takes birth in rich family, he should remember that "Kṛṣṇa has given me this chance that I have no material problem. So I have got enough time. Let me chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma…" And so far pure family is concerned, suppose one is born in a nice brāhmaṇa family, a Vaiṣṇava family, he gets chance immediately by his father's example, by his mother's example, by his family tradition. So naturally he gets the chance. Just like our children. These boys and girls who are married, they have got children. They are getting chance from the very beginning. The Śyāmasundara's daughter, Sarasvatī, she is wonderful girl. She is a child, but she never goes outside the spiritual consciousness. She makes her ārati. There are many boys. There is one boy, "D.D.D.," I call him. He is always engaged in making ārati, in worshiping Jagannātha. His father sent him some toys. He did not take it. So I asked him, "Why you are not taking the toys?" And he said, "It is māyā." (laughs) So you can train your children from the very beginning and make his life… That is the duty of father and mother. The Vedic injunction is: one should not become a father, one should not become a mother, unless they can help the child from the imminent danger of death. So who can save? Unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, nobody can escape the cycle of birth and death. Nobody can. This is the only process if you want to stop. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this body, there is no more birth in the material world. You get immediately transferred to the spiritual world, and you get your eternal, blissful, knowledge life.

Woman (3): Would you teach that you've been first master on this?

Devotee: She's asking if you are the first master, what you are teaching.

Prabhupāda: No, we have already explained. From Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the first teacher of this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. So we are taking it, carrying the same instruction.

Devotee: She wants to know if you're the first to come to New Zealand.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is first time I have come to New Zealand. So thank you very much. Now have saṅkīrtana. [break]

Guest (1): …views of Kṛṣṇa towards Westerners and drugs, especially by the young?

Devotee: "What is the views of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in regard to the people using drugs for spiritual enlightenment?"

Prabhupāda: That is not very palatable. Kṛṣṇa does not allow drugs in our movement. No. Kṛṣṇa says,

yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

One cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness unless he is completely washed of all sinful activity. So we forbid four things because they are pillars of sinful activities: illicit sex life, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling. Unless one gives up these four sinful activities it is not possible to approach Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa clearly says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. Pāpam means sin. One who has finished the sinful activity… And these are four pillars of sinful activity. So we have to voluntarily give up these habits. That is called austerity, penance. The human life is meant for austerity and penance, not for increasing the items of our sense gratification. That is animal life. Human life is meant for restraint. Laws are for the human being. When you go to the street-"Keep to the left"-this law is meant for human being, not for the dog. The dogs can go from left to right; he has no punishment. But if you go from left to right, violating the rules or violating the color, symbol, signal, then you will be immediately arrested because you are human being. So all the laws or injunctions are for human being. So human being, human life, is very responsible life. As you cannot violate the state law, similarly, you cannot violate the laws given by God. That is called dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the laws of God. If you violate, then you are punished. That's all. All right. [break] So ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much. (end)

720416LE.AUC

Lecture at Art Gallery

Auckland, April 16, 1972

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here and giving us a chance to speak about the absolute artist. Kṛṣṇa's name is Naṭabara, Naṭabara. Naṭabara means the greatest dramatic dancer. And another, His name, is Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. He is dancing in such a nice way that He (is) attracting everyone. So in the Vedas it is said about Kṛṣṇa how great artist He is. Na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. The Absolute Personality of Godhead, He has nothing to do personally. Na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. Kāryam means work. He hasn't got to perform any work, although He is the greatest worker. Na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate. And nobody is found greater than Him or equal to Him. In this world every one of us, we know that "Somebody is lower than me, somebody is greater than me, and somebody is equal to me." That is our experience. We cannot say that I am or you are absolute. Nobody is absolute. However you may be great in the estimation of others, you will find somebody is greater than you, and somebody is lower than you, and somebody is equal to you. But so far the greatest Absolute Personality of Godhead is concerned, na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate. By experimental study, by research work by great saintly persons, sages, they have concluded, na tasya samaḥ adhikaś ca dṛśyate: "Nobody is found samaḥ," means "equal to Him, or adhikaḥ." Adhikaḥ means greater. That is the experience. And still, He has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. "His energies are multi, multifarious, various kinds of energy." And the energies are working so nicely as if, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca, natural gift, knowledge, art, svā bala-kriyā, and strength. Svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā. Just like you are artist. You are painting one picture, one flower, very nice flower. You have to take your brush, the color and the plate, so many things, and you are taxing your brain, how to make it beautiful. But you see one rose flower in the garden. Not only one rose flower, many millions of rose flowers, they are coming out very artistically painted. But when we ask, the answer is that "It is nature." But if we go deep into the matter, what is this nature? Nature means a working instrument, that's all, an energy. That is nature. There is energy or śakti, energy, power. There is power. Without power, how the rose flower is coming to beautiful shape from the bud? There is power. That power is Kṛṣṇa's power. But that is so subtle and working so nicely that overnight we see that a beautiful flower has come out. But there is working, there is brain. But they are working so swiftly and subtly, we cannot see how it is being worked. Just like when you paint one picture, I can see, everyone can see that you are working. But this painting or this working of the actual rose flower, that is also being worked out by several energies. Don't think that is has coming out automatically. No. Nothing comes out automatically. It is coming out of the energy of the Supreme Lord, but the energies are so subtle, nice and artistic that all of a sudden you see a nice flower.

So He is the greatest artist. Just like nowadays, the electronic age, the artist or the scientist just pushing on one button and it is working so nicely. Nowadays it is very easy to understand. In the aeroplane the pilot is simply pushing on button, and such a huge machine, just like a small city, it is flying in the sky, and the wings are working, the machine is working. But we see that a person is simply pushing some button. As it is materially possible, that a man of this world can work so wonderfully simply by pushing some button, so how much great is God, or Kṛṣṇa-"God is great"-how His brain is fertile, how energies are fine, that simply by His desire, "Let there be creation," immediately everything is there. So that is the greatest artist. Simply we have to understand. If we take things very insignificantly, "Ah, by nature," but you cannot explain what is nature. In the garden you see different flowers are coming out. The same ground, the same water, but different flowers are coming out, different flavor, different color, all different, varieties. So the answer is bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtāni. He is the seed. He is the seed. You have seen the banyan tree, a small seed. But this small seed has got so potency that if you sow it in a nice place and water it, one day it will come, a big banyan tree. Now, what are the potencies, what are the artistic arrangement, scientific arrangement, within that small seed that it grows a big banyan tree? Not only a big banyan tree, but also many millions of big fruits, and within each fruit there are millions of seeds, and each seed contains the potency of another tree.

So where is your science in that way? Where is that artist within this material world? Where is that pleasure of that artistic work? These things should be enquired. It is called athāto brahma jijñāsā. In the Vedānta-sūtra this is the first aphorism, that "In the human form of life these enquiries should be made. These studies should be made." This is a fact. You cannot manufacture such machine that automatically a rose flower is coming out. You cannot make a chemical combination or a tablet which contains a big banyan tree, automatically will come out. So don't you think there is need of artistic brain and scientific brain? If you simply say, "It is nature," that is not good explanation. But the Vedas gives us information, "No." Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is He from whom everything is being generated." First aphorism is athāto brahma jijñāsā. Greater thing. We are engaged in smaller thing. We become amazed when we see a small sputnik is flying in the sky, and it is trying to go to the moon planet, and we are giving all credit to the scientist, and scientist is challenging, "What is God? Science is everything." But if you are cool brain, then you will see that now, in comparison to the sputnik, there are millions and trillions of planets and stars, big, big planets like sun planet, which is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. Apart from sun planet, if we take this teeny planet, earthly planet, on which we are living, there are so many oceans, so many mountains, skyscraper buildings. But if you go above this planet a few thousand miles, oh, you will see just like a spot, this big planet. You will see just like a spot. Not only spot, this one planet, but there are millions of planets. They are floating in the sky like swabs of cotton. So if we give so much credit to the artist who has manufactured this sputnik, how much credit we shall give to the person who has manufactured this arrangement? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to appreciate the greatest artist. You are all artists, but when we appreciate the greatest artist, Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Otherwise, whatever we are doing, it is said that we are being defeated unless we come to the point to appreciate the greatest artist who has created all this arrangement.

That appreciation we find in the prayers of Brahmā, Brahmā, who is the creator of this universe. So he is writing in appreciation of Govinda. Now, so far this universe is concerned, it is said,

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.40]

Now, we are trying to understand the planetary system by our scientific method, but we could not finish even studying one nearest planet, the moon planet, and what to speak of other millions and millions of planets? You see? But we get this knowledge directly from Brahma-saṁhitā. What is that? Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. By the effulgence, glaring effulgence of the rays of the body of Kṛṣṇa, yasya prabhā prabhavato, there are innumerable universes. We cannot study even one universal position, but we get information from this Brahma-saṁhitā that there are innumerable universes. And in each and every universes there are innumerable planets. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and koṭi means hundreds and thousands. One hundred times of one hundred thousand. That means innumerable. There are innumerable universes-innumerable suns, innumerable moons, innumerable planets. So this is being possible in the effulgence, brahmajyoti, of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's bodily effulgence is called brahmajyoti. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, brāhmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The brahmajyoti… Those who are jñānīs, those who are trying to approach the Absolute Truth by mental speculation, by dint of our teeny knowledge, they can, utmost, approach to this brahmajyoti. But that brahmajyoti is only emanation of the bodily effulgence of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato [Bs. 5.40]. Just like the light and the illumination is coming from the light, from that localized bulb, similarly, the brahmajyoti is coming out. Just like the sunshine, the best example, the sunshine, illumination of the sunlight, sunshine, is coming from the sun planet. The sun planet is localized. We can see it. And the effulgence, and the bodily effulgence of the sun planet is distributed all over the universe. Similarly, sun planet is one of the material creation of Kṛṣṇa. But as the moon planet reflects the sun planet, similarly the sun planet also reflects brahmajyoti, and the brahmajyoti comes out of the bodily effulgence of Kṛṣṇa. This information we get from Brahma-saṁhitā:

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.40]

So therefore the greatest art is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Greatest art. If we actually want to be artist, then we shall try to understand or try to be intimately associated with the greatest artist, Kṛṣṇa. For this purpose, this society is established. This Society's name is International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. The members of this Society are trained to see in everything the display of Kṛṣṇa's artistic sense. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In everything the devotee sees the artistic hand of Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And actually that is so. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "Whatever you see, everything is emanation from Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. "Everything comes out of My energy." Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Everything. Iti matvā: one who understands this fact that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam… [Bs. 5.1].

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

The īśvara… Kṛṣṇa is īśvara, supreme controller. Just like in your Institute there is a director who gives you direction, similarly, the supreme director, artist, is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. He is giving direction. Īśvara, controlling everything. Here in this material world we have got experience of a controller. Every one of us is a controller. You are controller, I am a controller. But above me there is another controller. And above that controller there is another controller, another, another controller. You go on searching out controller after controller. When you come to the supreme controller, that He is not controlled by everyone but He controls everyone, that is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. This is our definition of God. God means controller. So everyone is controller. In that sense everyone is god. But everyone is not supreme God, supreme controller. Suppose I am controlling some of my students. But I am being controlled by somebody else. Similarly, he is also controlled by somebody else. That is our practical experience. But the supreme controller means who is not controlled by anyone, but He is controller of everyone. That is God. Nowadays it has become a cheap business, to see so many Gods. But you test this, whether he is controlled by anyone. If he is controlled by somebody, then he is not God. If He is simply controller, then you can accept Him as God. That is the definition of God, a very simple definition.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So sac-cid-ānanda… There is… In the Vedānta-sūtra there is another aphorism, that ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt: (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12) "By nature the Supreme Absolute Person is ānandamaya." The artistic sense… You are engaged in artistic work just to have a pleasure, ānanda. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt. That pleasure, rasa, a mellow… By painting one picture, you enjoy some rasa or mellow; otherwise why you are working so hard? There is a pleasure. So Kṛṣṇa is raso vai saḥ. Raso vai saḥ: "He is the reservoir of all pleasure." Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. These words are used. Sat, cit, ānanda. Ānanda means pleasure. His pleasure potency is Rādhārāṇī. You have seen the picture of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. So Rādhārāṇī is the manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's pleasure potency. He has got, as I have already explained, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got multi-energies, and one of the energy is pleasure potency. That is Rādhārāṇī. Kṛṣṇa is addressed in the Bhagavad-gītā, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So parabrahma. Now, Brahman means biggest. So for Brahman happiness… That you have got experience within this world, that for achieving brahma sukha, or the greatest pleasure, ananta, unlimited pleasure…

ramante yoginaḥ anante

satyānande cid-ātmani

iti rāma-padenāsau

paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate

[Cc. Madhya 9.29]

What is the meaning of Rāma, Rāma-Kṛṣṇa? So Rāma means ramante, enjoys, rāma. So who enjoys? Yoginaḥ, big, big yogis. Rāmante yoginaḥ. The greatest of all yogis is the bhakta-yogī.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

These are the Vedic versions, that highest yogi… There are many kinds of yogis. The topmost yogi is he who… Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā. The yogis, they try to find out by samādhi the Supreme Person within the heart… Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Yogi's, yogi's business is dhyānāvasthita, in meditation, in full samādhi, he is seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, four-handed Nārāyaṇa. Viṣṇu-devānanda. Ānanda. They are taking pleasure by seeing Viṣṇu within the heart. Viṣṇu is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. The Supreme Person in His Paramātmā feature, localized feature, He is existing in everyone's heart.

So yogi, the ultimate yogi, ultimate yoga process is to be situated in samādhi, samādhi. Samādhi means forgetting everything external, simply concentrating on the form of Viṣṇu. Therefore this is said:

yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair

vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ

dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasa paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ

[SB 12.13.1]

Dhyānāvasthita, in full samādhi, in meditation, the yogis, they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the yogi. And out of all those yogis, the Kṛṣṇa form… Kṛṣṇa has got many forms. Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam. Kṛṣṇa has multiforms. He is the Yogeśvara. The yogis, they can also sometimes expand to many-fold forms. There is only one instance in the śāstra. There was a Saubhari Muni. He was a great yogi. He expanded himself to eight forms. So yogis, they can. But if a yogi can expand himself into eight or, say, several forms, how much potency is there in the yogeśvara. Kṛṣṇa is called yoge… Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. Yogeśvara [Bg. 18.78]. He is the master of all mystic powers, Yogeśvara. So He can expand Himself in many forms, multiforms. That is explained. Advaita acyuta anādi ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Ādyam, but He is the original person. Purāṇa-puruṣam, the oldest person, because He is the original. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca, but He is still young man. You have seen the picture of Kṛṣṇa. You will never see Kṛṣṇa as old man. When Kṛṣṇa was in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra… You have seen the picture. Kṛṣṇa is driving the chariot of Arjuna. At that time His age was not less than hundred years. He had great-grandchildren. But you have seen the picture. He was looking like a boy of sixteen to twenty years. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is described in the Vedic literatures as nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Kṛṣṇa's body… Therefore His body is spiritual body. The spiritual… When you get your spiritual body, you also get nava-yauvanam. Those who are associating with Kṛṣṇa in the Kṛṣṇa planet or those who are associating with Nārāyaṇa in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, they are also ever-young. Their bodily features are exactly like Nārāyaṇa. It is called sārūpya-mukti.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a great science of understanding what is God. Simply with vague idea, "There is God," that is not sufficient. That is good, simply to understand "There is God." Generally, they do not believe that there is God. But if somebody says, "Yes, there is God, but I have no business with Him," no, you should know God, actually what is His name, what does He do, where is His residence, what is His business. You should know this. And these things are possible to understand in this human form of life. We go to the human society to speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not go to the society of animals, because they have no capacity to understand. Their body does not permit to understand what is God. But the human society… It doesn't matter whether he is born in India or Czechoslovakia or Russia. I have been in Russia also. It is not that, that they are godless. The population is as good as in other country, but the government is suppressing. So that is another chapter. We have some devotees in Russia, very young men. They are very much interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they are chanting, although silently, so that government may not hear. There will be danger. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, and it is a great science. Unfortunately, there is no arrangement in any university, in any educational institution, or any arts or science college, "What is God?" There is no such arrangement. This is the most regrettable condition of the present society.

So without understanding of God's science, Kṛṣṇa-tattva, or the science of Kṛṣṇa, the life is simply animal life because animals, they do not understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, or God. Therefore human society without God consciousness, without any knowledge of the science of God, it is animal society. Actually it is happening. The world is now full with so many problems, so many difficulties, because the chance of human life is being misused. The intelligence of… Higher intelligence… We have got higher intelligence than the animals. The animals also live on this land, but they cannot utilize their intelligence for constructing a nice building, nice garden or industry or trade or car, because they have no brain. But the human being has got higher brain, higher brain capacity. That should be utilized not only for bodily comforts… Bodily comforts, the animals, they are also trying. Bodily comforts means to eat, sleep, to have sense gratification and to defend. So that is being (done) by the animals also, in their own way. So if we simply devote our time for these animal necessities of our life, then we are no better than animals. The higher intelligence should be utilized to know God, or Kṛṣṇa. When we say "Kṛṣṇa," Kṛṣṇa means God. Simply, generally to say God, but we give "Kṛṣṇa," the actual name of God, the actual residence of God, the actual activities of God, actual form of God, actual associates of… So many things we give. So simply to know God… Just like to simply to know one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, mathematic. Mathematic means nothing but one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. That's all. Now you can exchange in different ways-it becomes different number. But actually it is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So simply to know one, two, three, four, five, six, just like your daughter chants one, two, three, four, five, six, nineteen, eighteen, so that is not sufficient. You must know higher mathematics, how to adjust this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. That is higher mathematics. Higher mathematics does not mean that some other figures are brought in. The same one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. But you must know how to adjust these nine figures-one, two, three-and that is science of God. Simply to know, that is very good. Those who are atheists, they are declining to accept the existence of God. They are less than animals. Less than animals. The animals also, they are afraid of some higher authority. But these atheists, they are not afraid of higher authorities. Although they are being kicked by the laws of material nature in every moment, still, they are proud, "No, there is no God. There is no God."

So that is a very abominable condition of life, less than animals. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. The atheist class men are described as the lowest of the mankind, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Why? Narādhamāḥ, na duṣkṛtinaḥ: always engaged in sinful activities. That na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, and rascals. Prapadyante narādhamāḥ, and lowest of the mankind. So "They are very educated." Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: "Their knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy." Why? Āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ: "Because they have taken to the philosophy of atheism." So their position… Of course, we approach everyone to preach this science of God consciousness, but it is very difficult. Those who have taken to this atheistic view, āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ… Āsuri… Just like we have got examples in our Vedic science, Vedic knowledge. There were many atheistic persons like Kaṁsa, Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Dantavakra, they never accepted existence of God. But they had to accept the existence of God at the time of death. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham, that "Death, which takes away everything from everyone, that is… That death I am." So if we don't try to see God during our lifetime, then there will be an incidence which is sure-"As sure as death." That death is God. So to the atheistic person death is God. And to the theistic person, they can see, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Those who have developed love of God, oh, they are enjoying the transcendental pleasure in every moment by seeing the artistic work of Kṛṣṇa. So that is the position of a devotee.

So we request everyone to become devotee and Kṛṣṇa conscious so that you will find everywhere the artistic work of Kṛṣṇa, everywhere. Sarvatra sphuraya tāra iṣṭa-deva-mūrti, sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe nā dekhe tāra mūrti [Cc. Madhya 8.274]. Just like if you are drinking water… These things are very nicely described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So you are thirsty; you require water. And when you drink water, you feel so much pleasure. Sa vai. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, all pleasure. So raso vai saḥ. So that pleasure, by drinking water, that pleasure is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. For ordinary person who cannot appreciate Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction that "When you drink water, the taste which quench your thirst and you feel relief, that is Kṛṣṇa." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. [break] …in day and night. So if you simply try to understand that this taste is Kṛṣṇa, or God, you become God conscious. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So it is not very difficult to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply you require little training. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any rascaldom, I mean to say, interpretation, as it is, the way it is stated, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, if you take this, you become God conscious. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your life is successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. It is very easy and no loss, but the gain is very great. Therefore we request you all who are present, try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and you will find all information how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Or if you don't like to read Bhagavad-gītā, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. You will be Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Woman: …comment on the coming so-called revolution, or the second coming that is being prophesized by various people for the past fifty-odd years? Do you have any thought on this? Do you expect it?

Devotee: Second coming of who?

Woman: The second of either Christ or a total changeover in the evolution of this planet.

Devotee: Here it is. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. She says do you have any views that for the past fifty or hundred years people have been predicting that there is going to be like a second coming or a spiritual changeover which will have an effect on the whole planet.

Prabhupāda: So that is being done now.

Woman: There's a time, they say, the late 1980's or the 1990's, there is to be…

Prabhupāda: Yes, the signs are like that. People are taking this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very rapidly all over the world.

Woman: But it's just the general way.

Prabhupāda: So it is not very astonishing if by 1980 there are majority population, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. There is no… Because it is growing. Now, here is a girl, my disciple. His (her) original name was Janne. Now he (she) is devotee. And she was dancing in a different way. Now she is dancing Kṛṣṇa conscious. She was a very reputed artist, you know, in Australia. Now she has given that. She was earning hundreds and thousands of dollars, but she has given up everything. Now she is Jagat-tarani: she is delivering the world by dancing with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So that is quite possible. It is very simple. Therefore there is every possibility. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā, when one sees better thing, he gives up the inferior thing. That is nature. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is better engagement of life. So as soon as one understands this philosophy, he gives up the lower engagement and comes to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Is it possible for us to know the source of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Source of Kṛṣṇa? Well, Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. We are trying to understand the source of Kṛṣṇa because we have no other experience. We have got only experience that everything has got a source. You go on searching out. Just like you are caused by your father. Your father is caused by his father. His father is cause of… In this way go on researching, researching, then you come to Brahmā, the original person in this universe. Then Brahmā is also caused by Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is caused by Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. The Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is caused by Saṅkarṣaṇa. Saṅkarṣaṇa is caused by Nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa caused by Baladeva. Baladeva is caused by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the origin, cause, of everyone. He has no cause. He has no source. He is the original source of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the source of everything." And Brahma-saṁhitā, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam: [Bs. 5.1] "The cause of all causes." So Supreme Lord is the cause of all causes, but He is not caused by anyone. That is His supremacy. He is not caused by everyone. He is svarāṭ. He is described in the Vedic, svarāṭ, "self-evident." That is God.

Guest (2): You speak of knowing the creator. Jesus Christ said that "No man comes to the father"-and I always understood by this he speaks of the creator-"but by me." What do you think of Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he says nice thing, "Father." Kṛṣṇa is the supreme father. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

He instructs to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, all these multiforms of living entities, 8,400,000 species of life, their mother is this material nature, and I am the seed-giving father." So there is no contradiction between Jesus Christ's description and our Vedic description. God is the supreme father. That's a fact. He says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Pitā means father. So He is father of all living entities in different forms. That information we get from Vedic literatures.

Guest (3): You reach Kṛṣṇa consciousness by chanting. That's one of your methods, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa perhaps tells Arjuna there's more than one method of attaining consciousness of Him, and those methods are suited to various types of people. I just wonder if you consider that the chanting method is just one or whether it's the only one.

Devotee: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa describes different yoga processes. And he wants to know…

Prabhupāda: Yes. But He summarizes the yoga processes in the Sixth Chapter, last verse, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, one who always thinks of Me with faith and love within himself," yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, "within the heart, within himself, always think of Me, Kṛṣṇa," śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam, "engaged in devotional…," sa me yuktatamo, "he is the highest, topmost yogi." He has described different process of yoga system. That's a fact. But He concludes that one who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa always within himself with faith and love, he is the topmost yogi. So we are teaching our disciples to think of Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, if you chant and hear the word "Kṛṣṇa," then you become the topmost yogi. And simplest method-anyone can practice it. God has given you the tongue, and you can chant "Kṛṣṇa." Actually they are chanting everywhere, in all parts of the world, very easily, even a child. So this yoga system is recommended especially for this age because other yoga systems are very difficult processes for the present age. The haṭha-yoga system, to sit down in a sacred secluded place, straight right-angular, and looking towards the end of the nose, this is not possible for everyone. Therefore the topmost yoga system is to chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. And actually it is happening. Now our students all over the world, simply by chanting this holy name of God, Hare Kṛṣṇa, they are quickly advancing in spiritual knowledge, that's a fact. Now stop. (end)

720417LE.AUC

Lecture at Auckland University

Auckland, April 17, 1972

Prabhupāda: …known as Saṅkīrtana Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. The chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have already heard. Superficially it may appear the repetition of the same word, but every mantra with effect is chanted like that. It requires little practice. So the effect of this mantra is stated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It will cleanse your heart. If you go on chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then gradually the dirty things which are accumulated within our hearts, that will be cleansed. This is the process.

The dirtiest thing now within our heart is the bodily concept of life. Actually, this is the misconception of whole situation of the modern world. If anyone is in bodily concept of life that "I am this body," then the basic principle of our life becomes on the false platform, because I am not this body. This is the dirtiest thing within our heart. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then gradually, by this bhakti-yoga process, we shall understand that "I am not this body, but I am a spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. There is a Vedic mantra which is called aham: "I, I am Brahman, or the spirit soul." And if we come to that position to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then other things will follow, which is stated in this Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. When one becomes Brahman-realized, that "I am spirit soul," then the first benefit will be that such persons will be free from all kinds of lamentation and hankering. In this material world two things are going on: lamentation and hankering. Things which we do not possess, we hanker after it, and things we do possess and, somehow or other, we lose, then it is lamenting. So actually the whole situation is lamenting because we are losing. Take, for example, this body which we have gained from our father and mother on a certain date. It is losing gradually. Suppose you are twenty years old. That means you have already lost twenty years of your total duration of life. Suppose you are to live for hundred years. So twenty years you have already lost, or you have already died up to the amount of twenty years. I am seventy-six years. That means I have also died up to the amount of seventy-six years. So the age is increasing, that is a false idea. The age is decreasing. Somebody says that "You are seventy-six years old. Oh, you have so much increased." I am not increased. Practically I have decreased the duration of life.

The duration of life is limited. It is already destined. According to our past activities, we have got a body whose duration of life is already fixed up. The standard of happiness and distress, that is also fixed up. You cannot change it. Suppose one has got one hundred years age to live. Nowadays nobody lives for one hundred years. Utmost, eighty years or ninety years very rarely. My grandmother lived for ninety-six years. My father lived for eighty-four years. I do not know how long I shall live, but still I am living. But duration of life in this age is gradually decreasing. You are all students of the university, but there is no science how you can increase the duration of life or how you can stop death. That is not possible. Death… Birth, death, old age and disease-these are the four problems of our life. Nobody wants to die, but death is sure. We must die. Nobody wants to take birth, but there is birth. Now there are so many contraceptive methods for checking birth. But still, the population of the whole world is increasing. So birth, death, old age. Nobody wants to become old, everyone wants to remain young and fresh, but old age overcomes. Similarly, disease. There are scientific advancement of knowledge, you have got very effective medicines, but there is no science to stop disease or to stop death. These are the actual problems. But the problems, these problems, are pertaining to the body. The soul is different from this body. This is our misunderstanding. I am soul; you are soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. But somehow or other, I have been entrapped in these bodily, material bodily changes. Changes, you can understand, that you had a body like a baby; you had a body like a child; you had a body like a boy. Now you have got youthful body. Some days after, you will get a body like me. So the body is changing, and I am the same. I can remember my childhood body, my babyhood body or my boyhood body.

So the soul is eternal and the body is changing. That is explained in this Bhagavad-gītā. Most of you are well known to this book, Bhagavad-gītā. It is widely read book all over the world. So the first instruction given in the Bhagavad-gītā is this:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

These two lines of Bhagavad-gītā, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, if we simply study these two lines, then our life becomes different. But nobody cares to understand that the soul is eternal. It is changing, transmigrating from one type of body to another body. And there are 8,400,000 species or types of body, and we have been entrapped in this cycle of birth, death, old age and disease. This is our real problem. But in the university or any educational institution there is no department of knowledge to find out what is that thing which is entrapped within this body. We get this information from Bhagavad-gītā: dehinaḥ asmin dehe. Deha means this body, and dehinaḥ, the possessor of the body. Just like your shirt and coat. You are the possessor of the shirt and coat. The shirt and coat is not you. You are different from the shirt and coat. Similarly, we have got our two kinds of body: the gross body and the subtle body. The gross body is made of material elements-earth, water, fire, air, sky-and the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. So when we quit this gross body, the subtle body carries me to another gross body. This is the law of transmigration. It is not the question of belief. It is a fact that if we neglect to study this scientific knowledge, then we are missing the opportunity, because in this human form of life the developed knowledge can study what is there within this body which is so important, which missing, this body becomes worthless.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is preaching the important portion of the body, about the soul. To understand what is the soul, to understand what is the need of the soul, why he is entrapped within this material body, how the soul can be liberated, and after liberation, what is the function of the soul-these things are our subject matter. And these things are very nicely explained as preliminary study in the Bhagavad-gītā, and for higher study, for graduate study, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So our only request is that you are all students-you do not neglect this subject matter, this science to understand what is the soul. It is a fact. No scientific professor at the present moment can explain what is that thing missing, when the thing is missing, this body is called dead. What is the distinction of this dead body and the living body? So according to Vedic instruction, according to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, the body is always dead. But so long the soul is there, it appears to be living. Just like within your coat and shirt, so long you are there, the hand of your coat appears to be moving. Actually, the shirt or coat has no body, but because the original body is moving we see the shirt and coat is also moving. Similarly, this body is moving because the soul within it is moving. As soon as the soul is out of this body, this body will not move. So this science is very important science. That is the basic principle of understanding. It is not the question of thinking that one may believe in the existence of soul or one may not believe. But fact is fact. "Two plus two equal to four"-that is science. If somebody does not believe, if somebody says, "Two plus two equal to five" or "three," that is not scientist. Similarly, we may not believe in the existence of soul, but that is a fact. But if we want to study the subject matter very seriously and scientifically, then it will be possible to understand. But the simple method recommended in the Vedic literatures, that if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, mantra then gradually your intelligence or consciousness will be cleansed and you will be able to understand that you are not this body, that you are spirit soul… Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And if you understand that you are spirit soul, you are Brahman, then, at that time, you will become free from this blazing fire of material existence.

The blazing fire of material existence, I was just talking this morning our Swami Hanumān Goswāmī. He was speaking that at the present moment there is a movement amongst the younger section to commit suicide. Why? Why younger section are feeling such frustration and confused in spite of so much educational institution? In your Western country there is no question of poverty. You are all well-to-do, especially… I have extensively traveled over America and Europe, especially America. They are very opulent. I have traveled in Australia and come to your country, New Zealand. So far material necessities are concerned, you are all well-to-do. So why this question of frustration as Swami Goswami Hanuman Prasāda was thinking? Now the younger generation are after suicide. I do not know if this is fact. There is some dearth. So many things are. So actually, there is no cause of frustration. There is very good news for jubilation. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Don't be frustrated. Try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how it is scientific, how it is authorized, how it is old, and how it is accepted by great ācāryas, great stalwart learned scholars, and how it is treated by the learned section of all over the world. So our request is that younger section may not feel confused and frustration. There is very nice hope. Those who are taking to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, mostly they are younger section. Now ask them how much hopeful they are, how much jubilant they are. So my request is that-you are all young boys and girls, flowers of the country-don't feel frustration and confused. There is nice hope in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My only request is that-you are all learned boys and girls-try to understand this philosophy and science, and you will be happy. That is my request.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

720420LE.TOK

Lecture

Tokyo, April 20, 1972

(kīrtana, prema-dhvanī, "Tokyo Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple ki jaya")

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

So,

vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca

kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca

patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo

vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaiṣṇava devotees of the Lord. They can fulfill the desires of everyone, just like desire trees, and they are full of compassion for the fallen souls.]

Vaiṣṇava, devotees of the Lord, they are just like desire tree. Vāñchā-kalpataru. Desire tree, of course, we have no experience, but there is description. In the spiritual world there are desire trees. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa [Bs. 5.29]. It is called kalpa-vṛkṣa. So,

vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca

kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca

patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo

vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaiṣṇava devotees of the Lord. They can fulfill the desires of everyone, just like desire trees, and they are full of compassion for the fallen souls.]

Vaiṣṇava, devotee of Lord, can give you everything, whatever you desire, fulfilled, because a Vaiṣṇava can deliver Kṛṣṇa. So when Kṛṣṇa is achieved, so there is no more any desire. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He underwent severe austerities, penances, meditation. His purpose was that "When I shall see God, Nārāyaṇa, I shall take benediction that I must have a kingdom better than my father or my grandfather achieved." That was his determination. Because he was a child, so his stepmother refused to allow him to sit on the lap of his father. He became insulted, so he decided that "I shall take from Kṛṣṇa such a kingdom which even my father or grandfather could not imagine." It is childish determination, but it was a determination. He was a kṣatriya. His determination… And Kṛṣṇa fulfilled it. But from his part, when he saw Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa, he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "My dear Lord, I don't want anything. I have got You now." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42].

Actually, when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious… Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one can see Kṛṣṇa every moment. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Those who have developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, love of Kṛṣṇa, they always see Kṛṣṇa. They do not see anything except Kṛṣṇa. That is described by Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. He is drinking water but seeing Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this taste of water is Kṛṣṇa." He is eating prasādam: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He has given me so nice prasādam." So actually Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that he always sees Kṛṣṇa in every activity. He has no other vision. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe, nā dekhe tāra mūrti sarvatra sphuraya tāra iṣṭa-deva mūrti [Cc. Madhya 8.274]. A devotee is seeing the tree, but he is not seeing the tree. He will see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is working, that "Here is a tree, and it is so nice." He sees everything, everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandha. Everything. Therefore a Vaiṣṇava is eulogized that vāñchā-kalpataru. He… Because he can give Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said, kṛṣṇa se tomāra kṛṣṇa dite pāra. He is begging Vaiṣṇava, "Sir, Kṛṣṇa is yours. You can deliver Kṛṣṇa." Dhai tava pāche pāche: "Therefore I am after you, because you can deliver Kṛṣṇa." And in the Brahma-saṁhitā also it is said, vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33]. If you want to achieve Kṛṣṇa by studying all the Vedas, it is very difficult, but if you approach a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he can deliver you Kṛṣṇa: "Take it immediately." Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33]. Therefore Vaiṣṇava is vāñchā-kalpataru. He can fulfill all the desires of our life because he can deliver Kṛṣṇa.

So in our paramparā system we are trying to create some Vaiṣṇavas in the world. There are many industrialists, many scientists, many philosophers, many politicians, diplomats, and leaders-so many things. They are trying also to solve the problems of the world in different ways, but they cannot do anything. It is impossible. They cannot do anything. They are themselves blind. They do not know actually what is the objective of life. So what they can give you? They can simply create problems. That's all. Ugra-karma. By engaging you in pungent, karmī activities, life becomes most miserable. So this verse,

vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca

kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca

patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo…

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaiṣṇava devotees of the Lord. They can fulfill the desires of everyone, just like desire trees, and they are full of compassion for the fallen souls.]

So Vaiṣṇava is the patitānāṁ pāvana… Fallen. Fallen means when one falls down from his actual position. That is called fallen. So every conditioned soul is fallen because he has fallen down from his actual position. What is his actual position? The position is that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the constitutional position of living entity. But he has fallen means he has given up the service of Kṛṣṇa and he has taken the service of māyā, means so many things. Somebody is serving country, society, friendship, love, and so many things. They have created service. At last dog service, cat service. But because they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa's service, therefore they are called fallen. These fallen conditioned soul are claimed by the Vaiṣṇavas. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ. That is Vaiṣṇava's duty.

So you are doing your best to do this service, Vaiṣṇava, in this remote village. Our Sudāmā Prabhu is trying to give service to Kṛṣṇa. Our position is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. We can give service from anywhere, from any position. It doesn't matter where we are. Because everything is Kṛṣṇa's property, everywhere Kṛṣṇa is there, so wherever we get possibility of rendering our service… So the literature distribution… So kindly stick to this service attitude. Never be misled by the allurement of māyā. Engage. Remain engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service wherever you are. Kṛṣṇa will see. We don't want any recognition from anyone else. We want recognition by Kṛṣṇa and His devotee. That's all. If they are satisfied, then our success, life success. So this place, you all a little distant from the city, but we are not concerned with the city. We are concerned for distributing this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I have learned that there is a train service from here, it takes only forty-five minutes, forty-three minutes. So this place is very nice. It is… And expenditure according to our means. That is all right. When Kṛṣṇa will give us better place… This is also. Wherever Kṛṣṇa is at, that is better. That is best.

So my point is that you are all Vaiṣṇavas, try to do something good to the people, because they are all suffering. All suffering. For want of, lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness they do not know what is the aim of life, what is to be achieved. Simply they are working hard like hogs and dogs for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. They do not believe in the next life although it is a fact there is next life. And they do not know. They are not educated there is next life. How much irresponsibly we are working. Nature's law is very stringent. If you work irresponsibly, then you can, you have to accept… Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. If you become attached to this material enjoyment, then you will have to accept a body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to accept. But this education is not there, whole world. So simply these Kṛṣṇa conscious people, they are trying to educate people on this point. So it is sometimes very distressing, but never mind. Nothing is be distressed. When you serve Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of distress. Simply do your best and people will surely be benefited wherever you go. A Vaiṣṇava, wherever he goes, he makes the place sanctified. Vāñchā-kalpatarubhyaś ca kṛpā-sindhubhya eva ca. And kṛpā-sindhu. What these materialistic men can do mercy to the others? They cannot do anything. Here is the real mercy, to awaken a person to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real mercy, because for want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness he is suffering millions and millions of years. Sometimes he is becoming tree like that. Suppose here is a tree; it is standing for thousands of years. So in this way they're simply suffering. This transmigration of the soul, the soul is suffering. Vaiṣṇava is giving you information that "Why you are suffering? You just accept your original position, eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. You become happy." This is Vaiṣṇava. Why you are suffering?

So māyā is there. Māyā does not want to lead (leave?) the culprits. Because one who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a culprit, so māyā wants to give such person more and more trouble. But Vaiṣṇava risks his life to snatch him from the hands of māyā. So māyā, of course, when he sees that "This man, this living entity, is now corrected; he is now taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness," then she will not disturb.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

[Bg. 7.14]

Māyā etāṁ… Māyā, she is the most sincere servant of Kṛṣṇa. She wants to chastise. Just like police. Police want to chastise a person unless he comes to his consciousness that he must abide by the laws of the state. That is police business. Otherwise police is not enemy. Similarly, māyā is not our enemy, but she has got a thankless task with that trident. So Kṛṣṇa is giving us the knowledge that "You surrender unto Me, and māyā will not trouble you." Māyām etāṁ taranti te. So we are giving this information, that "You rascal, you are trying to be happy by your material plan. You will never be happy. Don't be fooled. You have been befooled so many lifetimes. Now just make an experiment in this life. Take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and see whether you are becoming happy or not. Why not make…?" This is our method. That's all. It is very simple thing. You have tasted your life for so many years. Now why not taste this also? In this way, peacefully we have to execute our devotional service. And the more you do, more you become strong, more Kṛṣṇa is pleased upon you.

So our business is very nice, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are happy. We are para-upakārī. We are doing good to others. That is puṇya-karma, pious activities. So keep yourself in this attitude. Never mind where you are situated. We are not concerned with a particular place or country or society. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. And everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, wherever we go. We are here. We are not in Japan. We are in Vaikuṇṭha, this temple. We are in Vaikuṇṭha. And we are doing the service of Kṛṣṇa, that Vaikuṇṭha service. So in this way, with this attitude, go on preaching. I am very pleased that you are doing your best. That I want.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

720428LE.TOK

Lecture Excerpt

Tokyo, April 28, 1972

Prabhupāda: Which one next? This is the original problem. Even the greatest scientist, one who wants to discover something… It is not that somebody wishes to do something, to discover-it immediately comes out. No. He finds it difficult; therefore he makes researches how to do it. So when he is very keen and persistent, then from within, the Paramātmā, when He sees that "This man wants to do it," so He gives him direction, "Yes, you do like that." He is not actually inventor or discoverer. He is not. He tried. "Man proposes; God disposes." Here is the Brahmā's problem is also. If Brahmā is self-sufficient to create, why he is in perplexity? He is in perplexity. Lord Brahmā, the first spiritual master, supreme being, supreme-he is supreme-could not trace out the source of his lotus… He could not trace out wherefrom he is born, and what to speak of other things. This is our intelligence. We do not know wherefrom we have come and where we have to go and why we are suffering. And we are proclaiming ourself M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C. and so on. But we do not know wherefrom we have come. Anyone, a scientist, any scientist, big scientist, M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C., ask him that "Wherefrom you have come and where you will go?" He cannot answer. He will think that "I have come from the womb of my mother. That's all." "Wherefrom you came to the womb of your mother?" "The father injected." "Where your father got you?" These answers he will give.

So this is the problem. Nobody is self-independent. Everyone is dependent on Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Everything. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2], in Bhagavad-gītā: "I am the origin of all the demigods." The Brahmā is also demigod. Brahmā is born out of the lotus stem which is grown from the abdomen of Viṣṇu. So he has to find out the source of his birth. That is stated here. "Could not trace out the source of his lotus seat. And while thinking of creating the material…" Now, he was to create. He was born, he was given birth, just to assist Viṣṇu to create. Then he could not understand the proper direction how to create. These are the actual problems. Everyone is trying to create. The creative energy is there in every living entity because he is part and parcel of the original creator. But he cannot create independently. These rascals, they do not… They will say, "accident," "necessity…" What is that rascal? He has written book.

Devotee: Chance and Necessity.

Prabhupāda: Chance and Necessity. If you feel some necessity and there is a chance by physical labor(?)… The rascal does not know the chance is not the physical. The chance is given by Kṛṣṇa, that "You are so much anxious for this? All right, here is the way. You come on." They take it: "It has taken by chance, accident, accidental." There are many chemists who are discovering many compositions, mixing this liquid in a test tube. All of a sudden they see it has come successful-they take it as chance. So therefore their rascal brain cannot understand that it is the chance… It is not chance. It is an opportunity given by Kṛṣṇa to you: "You are so much laboring hard. All right, do it." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15], in the Bhagavad-gītā: "I give you. I give that intelligence." They take it as chance. There is no question of chance. There is no question of chance. When you become perplexed, you want to do something, Kṛṣṇa gives you the opportunity: "All right, do it like this." That is His mercy.

There is no question of chance. There is nothing like chance. This is foolish proposition. Everything… Just like this flower is coming. So there is immense manufacturing process. Suppose if you want to manufacture a flower like this, you have to secure so many things-the color, the ingredient, the paper, the brush, so many. Still, you cannot do like this. So if your nonsense, artificial flower takes so many instrumental assistance, brain, how do you think that this has come automatically? There is brain. It is not chance. You have no eyes to see. Therefore you call "chance." But a devotee, he sees. He does not see this flower; He sees the hand of Kṛṣṇa, how He is preparing, how He is preparing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore a devotee does not see anything except Kṛṣṇa because he sees the craftsmanship, hands of Kṛṣṇa, how He is preparing. He sees Kṛṣṇa. He does not see this flower. The rascal sees this flower, and he thinks that it is coming out by chance. No chance. There is no question of chance. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. His intelligence, His energies, are so subtle and working. Just like we have got so many examples, electronics. There is one typewriter there, and there is one typewriter here. And one pushes the key there, and here it is "kut." So the one who does not know, rascal, he says, "It is chance." Not chance. There is electronic working. They have discovered something, how Kṛṣṇa's energies are working, this electronic. Just like television working. One man talking five thousand miles away, and the man is seeing. By electronic, it is immediately transferred. Now, the fool will see, "It is chance. It is chance." No. There is work, but you cannot see how the method and process of the work is going on. There is everything working. Not chance. There is no question of chance. Everything is there, but Kṛṣṇa's power, energy, is so subtle, so inconceivable by us, we cannot understand. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't take it as chance." Mayādhyakṣa: "Under My superintendence. I am directing direction." Here is direction. He could not find out the direction. He could not understand the proper direction. The direction has to be taken from Kṛṣṇa, then everything will be done. Otherwise, there is no question of chance, or what is that? Necessity? Chance… No. There is nothing like that. There is nothing like miracle. For me it is miracle. Just like somebody asking me some money. So I have no money. I simply write here that "Go to Śyāmasundara," and if you present the slip, then, and he gives immediately one hundred dollars. So he will think, "It is chance that a simple little paper produced hundred dollars." He… Foolishly, he may think that "There is something magic. He has written something." But no; there is some arrangement. There is no question of chance. Everything, there is arrangement; everything is direction. But our insufficient brain… Because with our tiny brain we think that "We are all successful." We are all perplexed. Therefore, we rascals, we take it as chance and necessity, and like that. There is no chance. Even Brahmā could not-the actual creator of this universe. What you have created? He has created so many planets. So he could not, and what we are?

So these are rascaldom only. There is no question of chance, there is no question of accident. Everything is working under subtle laws, under subtle direction of Kṛṣṇa. Read it. If you understand Kṛṣṇa… Just like I was speaking that the devotee does not see how the flower is growing. He sees Kṛṣṇa is working. Just like a painter is painting some flower and I am seeing, so similarly, he sees Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's hand in it. That is explained here. What is that? And as soon as you know the Lord, then you know everything. That is Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti: "Knowing whom, one can understand everything very easily." Then?

Pradyumna: "One who knows the…" [break]

Prabhupāda: Therefore our process is to know everything through Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect knowledge. Or through Kṛṣṇa's representative. That is perfect knowledge. Otherwise, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Śrama, śrama means laboring. Śrama eva hi kevalam. So, I think one verse is all right. Have kīrtana. (end)

720429LE.TOK

Lecture

Tokyo, April 29, 1972,

(with interpreter)

Prabhupāda: (translated into Japanese throughout) So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is on a different platform than this matter. It will be easier to understand that distinction between living body and dead body. So we are talking of the living portion of our existence. The living portion… We have got a living force within this body. Everyone can understand. As soon as that living force is out of this body, this body has no longer any value. It is thrown away on the street. So without any knowledge of the living force within this body, if we simply take care of our body, it is just like decorating a dead body. So do not take this movement as a sectarian, religious movement. It is practically a movement to bestow the essential knowledge of life to the human society.

So religion is a kind of faith, but faith can be changed. But the knowledge which is essential in life, that cannot be changed. Therefore this culture, although it appears like a religious system, but it is the essential knowledge of life. Religion or faith, you can change from one to another, but you must know the essential value of your life. And because we have no, I mean to say, connection at the present moment with the essential knowledge of life, we are thinking that you are separate from me, I am separate from you. Just like we are all human being, but for want of adequate knowledge, I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking you are Japanese, somebody is thinking he is American, and yet another is thinking that he is something else. Actually we are one. We are energy of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So, just like in dream I accept a different position, forgetting my real identification, and I think that I have gone far away from home, and I am flying, or I am in the forest-so many things I may dream-but that is not actual fact. So this movement is practically awakening the human society dreaming in sleep. Just like if a man is sleeping very sound, forgetting his duty, and some friend of the man is trying to awake him, "Mr. such and such. Please wake up. It is now morning. You have to do this thing, that thing." So this movement is like that. When a man is fast asleep, all other senses cannot work, but one sense, which is called ear, it can work. Just like you are sleeping and somebody is coming with a knife to kill you. You cannot see. The man can come and kill you. But if somebody cries, "Mr. such and such, wake up! Somebody is coming to kill you," you can use your ear and be precautious. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is something like that, awakening from the slumbering state of material consciousness. So more you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare-the more you become awakened from the slumbering state of material existence.

So Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is Sanskrit word. It is meaning that "This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra will cleanse your heart." Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. So as soon as the heart is clean, then all our material problems are solved. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni, the Sanskrit word, means that "This material world is just like a forest fire." So forest fire… I think all of you must have got some knowledge of forest fire. It takes place automatically. And you can very easily experience that we are living very peacefully, but by the dealings of the politicians, at any moment there can be war. So this war is just like forest fire. Nobody likes war, but it takes place. So similarly, in the forest, nobody goes to set fire, but it takes place. Therefore this material world is compared with the forest fire. So this forest fire can be extinguished by a different process than the fire in the ordinary way extinguished. Just like in the city, if there is fire, you can take advantage of the fire brigade or you can take advantage of some volunteers carrying bucketful of water. But to extinguish the forest fire, neither you can take the help of the fire brigade nor the volunteer carrying bucketfuls of water. The forest fire can be extinguished when there is rainfall from the sky. Similarly, this misunderstanding of the world-although we are one, but we have divided ourselves in so many groups-this will create forest fire, and this forest fire can be extinguished. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just like falling of rain from the cloud. Yes. The cloud means a process which collects water from the sea and distributes all over the surface. And the same water again glides down through the river unto the sea. Similarly, this movement means taking mercy from the ocean of mercy of Kṛṣṇa and distribute it all over the world, so that again the merciful water goes down to the sea. So those who actually want peace or mercy of God, they should kindly try to understand the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And even though you have no time to understand this philosophy through books of knowledge, you can simply join with us for chanting and dancing this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

So I am very glad that you are joining with this movement, and the more you come to us and chant with us and dance with us, your spiritual life will be invoked. That spiritual consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is there in everyone's heart, dormant. It has simply to be awakened. Just like the European and American boys who have come to your country, four years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa. So now they are dancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that we have bribed them to dance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness has been awakened. Similarly, this same Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there within your heart. It doesn't matter whether you are Indian or Japanese or European. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in everyone's heart. By this process it can be awakened. And as soon as it is awakened… It is practically proved. When you are here, you are dancing in ecstasy. That means it is being awakened. So simply by trying to understand, or simply by coming here and joining this chanting and dancing and taking little prasādam, gradually your consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, also will be awakened. So chanting, dancing, and taking prasādam are universal formula, and we have experienced everywhere in the world. In Europe, America, Australia, Africa, Canada, in Japan-everywhere it is being proved that simply by chanting, dancing, and taking prasādam, everyone is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there is a great need of awakening this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world because people, being lost of this consciousness, are creating only problems of life. So I thank you very much for your coming here and taking part with this festival.

Thank you very much. (end)

720501LE.TOK

Lecture

Tokyo, May 1, 1972

Prabhupāda: This material existence, which we are now passing through, is not our actual existence. There is a Bengali Vaiṣṇava poet. He said… Generally, the question is raised: "How the living entities became fallen in this material world?" The Māyāvādī philosophy, they say that we are the same with God, but we are now covered by māyā, and as soon as we are free from this māyā's covering, we become again one with the Supreme. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. Practically, the Vaiṣṇava philosophy, also the same, but only difference is that the jīvātmā, he is eternal servant of the Supreme Lord. Actually, if we scrutinizingly study, our constitutional position is to render service. Any one of us who are sitting here, everyone is servant. Nobody can say that "I am master." We are thinking like master, but actually we are all servants-anyone-either you are servant of your family or you are servant of your country or you are servant of your senses. Everyone, at the present moment, we are servant of the senses, servant of this body. And gradually our illusion expands. Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This material world, it is explained by Vaiṣṇava philosopher:

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

Māyā is nothing but an illusion which is covering my Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is called māyā. I am… Kṛṣṇa says that mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "All these living entities, they are My parts and parcels, sanātana, not that they have now become servant of Me by material contact, but they are eternally servant." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa: [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109] "The real identity of the living entity is that he is eternal servant of God, or Kṛṣṇa." When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

So actually we are still servant although we have rejected servitude of Kṛṣṇa. That is our rebellious condition. Every one of us, all living entities within this material world, they are more or less rebellious condition. We don't want to serve Kṛṣṇa. I want to become Kṛṣṇa. That is māyā. That is the last snare of māyā. First of all, in our karmī life we want to become master of the world. I want to lord it over the material nature. That is our struggle. Everyone is trying, "I shall become the master." Nobody wants to become servant. That is māyā. But actually he is serving. That is our position. Try to understand. We are serving our senses whimsically. I want to become this. I want to become that. First of all I want to become a big businessman, or I want to become a prime minister. I want to become the president. And when I am frustrated, then I want to become God. That want-"I want to become master"-is going on. So this is also māyā. How one can become God? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Nobody can become equal to God or greater than God. Asamaurdha. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described as asama urdha. "Nobody is equal to God, and nobody is greater than God." Asama urdha.

So this disease, this is called material disease. I want to lord it over the material nature, and when I fail to lord it over, then I want to become one with God. Of course, there are five kinds of liberation: sāyujya sārūpya sāmīpya sālokya. By liberation you can become one with God. That is not very difficult. If you want to become, merge into the existence of God, that is not very difficult job. God is all-powerful. You are emanation from God. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So if you want to… Sāyujya mukti. If you want to finish your individuality and merge into the existence of God, that is not very difficult job. Even the enemies of Kṛṣṇa-Kaṁsa, Jarāsandha, Dantavakra, Śiśupāla, and many demons-they also merged into the existence of Kṛṣṇa. The enemies also given the liberation to merge into the existence of Kṛṣṇa. That is not very difficult job. But to keep your individuality and serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is your actual position, constitutional position. That mukti… The Vaiṣṇava philosophers, they want that mukti. They want to keep… Nitya-yukta upāsate. Nitya-yukta. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, nitya-yukta upāsata. The upāsana, the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead-man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]-this is not stopped after liberation. The same business goes on. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava, even if he is offered mukti… Dīyamānaṁ na gṛhṇanti. Even if he's offered that "You take mukti," they do not accept it.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu said in His prayer to the Supreme Lord,

na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ

kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye

mama janmani janmanīśvare

bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi

[Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]

Na dhanaṁ na janam. The karmīs, they are hankering after wealth, riches, great following, great dependents. Na dhanaṁ na janam. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "I don't want. I don't want riches. I don't want many followers." Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. Another demand of the karmīs is that "I must have very nice, beautiful, obedient wife." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No, I don't want that." Na dhanam. This is finishing materialism. In the material world people want these three things: dhanam, janam, and sundarīṁ kavitām. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. "Then mukti, You take mukti?" "No." Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] "I don't want to finish My repetition of birth and death also." That is called mukti. Mukti means stopping the repetition of birth and death. So those who are hankering after… The jñānīs, the jñānī-sampradāya, they want to merge into the existence of the Supreme Lord. But that merging is possible in the brahmajyoti. Brahmajyoti. The Absolute Truth is divided into three. Actually He is not divided. Because He is absolute, He cannot be divided. But according to the, I mean to say, realizer, somebody is realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, somebody is realizing the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, and somebody is realizing Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, most beautiful, lovable object. So the Bhāgavata Purāṇa says, vadanti tat tattva vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. It is only the different features of realization. If you want to realize the Absolute Truth by your imperfect senses… We should always know that our senses are always imperfect. Just like we are very much proud of seeing with my own eyes. We say sometimes, challenge, "Can you show me God? Can you show me this or that?" But we do not know how much imperfect are our eyes. We are seeing every day the sun, but we are seeing it just like a disk. But actually the sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet. We cannot see. If there is (indistinct), immediately there is darkness, we cannot see. Unless there is light, sunlight or electric light or moonlight, we cannot see. We cannot see our eyeballs. We cannot see the eyelid, nearest. Longest, longest we cannot see; nearest we cannot see. Therefore we should not be very much proud of our seeing directly, direct perception. So direct… Anyone who is trying to understand the Absolute Truth by direct perception, he can rise up to the impersonal Brahman understanding, not more than that. And those who are trying to understand the Absolute Truth within his heart, just like yogis… Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The yogi, by meditation, being in samādhi, they are seeing the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu, within the heart. Dhyānāvasthita. And those who are devotees, they are seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Arjuna is seeing, personally, face to face: Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the origin of everything.

As it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. What is Absolute Truth? This human form of life is meant for understanding what is Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is human form of life. The cats and dogs cannot inquire about what is Brahman. That is not possible. This human form of life, they can inquire. Inquisitiveness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And immediately reply, the Vedānta-sūtra, "Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is that which is the source of everything." Janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1]. Now that reply is given by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

Budhā. Budhā means one who is actually in knowledge, one who is actually in understanding. Such person, he knows that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Vedānta-sūtra gives hint that "Absolute Truth is that which is the original source of emanation of everything." That Absolute Truth is Kṛṣṇa. He says further, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "Beyond Me, there is no other superior authority or truth."

So in another place Kṛṣṇa says,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

"Out of many million of persons, one is interested how to make this life, human life, successful…" Everyone is interested how to enjoy senses, sense gratification. But that is the business of the animals. The animals, they do not know anything beyond their sense gratification. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca, sāmānyam etad paśubhiḥ narāṇām. The sense gratification business is equal in human being and animal. The animal eats, and human being also eats. The animal sleeps, a human being also sleeps-maybe in nice compartment, but the sleeping business. The animal eats directly anything, whatever he gets; we make palatable dishes for satisfaction of our tongue. We kill many animals and eat them. So that may be the difference. Otherwise the eating business of the animal and the human being is the same. Similarly, sexual intercourse. The dog can freely have sexual intercourse on the street. The hog can have sexual intercourse on the street and without any discrimination whether mother, sister, or anything. That is hog life, dog life. But a human being has the same sexual desires but little decently. That is the difference. So the śāstra says that if you become simply engaged in these four kinds of business-eating, sleeping, mating and defending-then you are no better than animal. Your business is brahma-jijñāsā. Try to understand what is Brahman. That is your business. The Kṛṣṇa replies in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Even if you want to understand the impersonal Brahman, you have to search out wherefrom this effulgence is coming. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā:

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.40]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement-important in this sense, that we are educating people without any discrimination about Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. And actually, as we understand from the Bhagavad-gītā, if we simply can understand what is Kṛṣṇa, as Kṛṣṇa says, that manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām… [Bg. 7.3]. It is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, Kṛṣṇa is understandable if we simply follow the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Actually there are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, about six hundred, seven hundred in America, in Japan, in England. I have seen so many editions, English editions, what to speak of other language editions. So anyway, the malinterpretation is going on. We have, therefore, published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, without any malinterpretation. Our business is to present Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. We say that, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What Kṛṣṇa says Himself, we simply carry the message. That's all. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Just always think of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "just become My devotee," and man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, "just worship Me and offer your respectful obeisances unto Me. In this way you shall come back to Me." So we are teaching that, that… We are teaching our students that "Always think of Kṛṣṇa." Smārtavyaṁ satato viṣṇuḥ. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, the same category.

So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, very easy. There is no need of education, there is no need of becoming very wealthty or very intelligent. Anyone, even a child, can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So each time you pronounce the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, you remember Him, the smārtavyaḥ satato viṣṇuḥ. Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ [SB 2.1.6]. If by practicing this, at the time of death, if we can remember Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. Then our life is successful, ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ, if you can remember simply Nārāyaṇa at the time of death. Because next life means the mental position of your life at the time of death. Whatever mental position you put yourself, that is your next life. That is your next life. Yad yad… What is that? Yad yad bhāvam. I forget that verse. At the time of death, whatever you think, that is your next life. I prepare my next life in this life. That is in the hands of the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. As we associate, guṇeṣu… It is also described in this Bhāgavatam, ramamāṇaḥ asyā guṇeṣu. We are now enjoying in the company of different modes of material nature. Some is enjoying life in company with the modes of material nature, goodness, and some is enjoying the modes of passion, and some is enjoying the modes of ignorance. There are three qualities: sattva, rājaḥ, tamaḥ. Sattva is translated as goodness, rājaḥ as passion and tamaḥ as ignorance. And according to these guṇas, different people are there. That is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā: catur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. As we associate with different types of guṇas, we make our position like that. So those who are in the sattva-guṇa, they are called brāhmaṇas. Those who are in the rajo-guṇa, they are called kṣatriyas. Those who are mixed guṇas, they are called vaiśyas. And those who are in the tamo-guṇa, they are called śūdras. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So our aim of life should be how to transcend all these guṇas. Trai-guṇya-viṣayā vedā nistrai-guṇyo bhavārjuna. Kṛṣṇa advises Arjuna that "The Vedic knowledge or this whole material creation is mixed up with three kinds of the modes of material nature. So you have to transcend." Nistrai-guṇyo bhavārjuna. And what is the process to put ourself in that transcendental position? That transcendental position is sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. What is that? Māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Anyone who is situated in the bhakti-yoga process, especially mentioned, bhaktyā māṁ abhijānāti, you can understand Kṛṣṇa simply by this bhakti-yoga process. Kṛṣṇa never meant jñāna-yoga or dhyāna-yoga or karma-yoga process. He especially meant that bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. If you want to know Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept this bhakti-yoga process. There are many thousands of yogic processes, but if you want to know Kṛṣṇa, if you want to know God, then you have to take to this bhakti-yoga process.

That is also indicated by Arjuna. When Arjuna was being advised, he was assured that… Why Kṛṣṇa was advising about Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna? He was a gṛhastha, householder, a kṣatriya, fighter, warrior. He was not a Vedāntist, neither he had any time to study Vedas. He was a gṛhastha. Study of Vedas is the business of the brāhmaṇas. So he was not a brāhmaṇa. But still, Kṛṣṇa said that "Still, I am instructing you this Bhagavad-gītā, rahasyam etad uttamam. The most confidential, secrecy, mystery of Bhagavad-gītā is difficult to understand, but I am instructing you." "Why? Why You have selected me?" Bhakto 'si: "Because you are My devotee." This is the only qualification to understand Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise, unless one is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot understand the confidential teachings of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Fourth Chapter,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The Bhagavad-gītā, the process is given there, how to study Bhagavad-gītā-by the paramparā system, not by your whimsical way. You must hear from the authorized person. Just like Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam: "I instructed this Bhagavad-gītā philosophy to sun-god, and he instructed to his son Manu. And Manu instructed to his son Ikṣvāku." So in this way you have to study. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam. So if you want to study Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, then you should study immediate paramparā. Arjuna was present. Arjuna was personally instructed by Kṛṣṇa. And you should catch up how Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa.

That is explained in the Tenth Chapter. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣaṁ śāśvatam: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Personality, puruṣam, the supreme enjoyer. Śāśvatam. Not that at the present moment. Eternally You are the enjoyer." And Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, also says the same thing in another place:

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

People are hankering after śānti, peace, but they do not know the way. The way is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. What is that? Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ: "I am the supreme enjoyer of everything." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of everything." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: [Īśo mantra 1] "God is the proprietor of all planets." But we are claiming that "I am proprietor. We are proprietor, nationally." That is our mistake. Actually, everything belongs to God. Now, the Japanese claiming that "Japan is our country." Indians are claiming, "India is our country." But nothing belongs either to the Japanese or to the Indians or to the Americans. Everything belongs to God. This consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we understand three things only, that God is the only proprietor, Kṛṣṇa is the only proprietor, He is the only enjoyer, and we are simply servant to help Him in His enjoyment… The highest perfection is found in Vṛndāvana. Everyone is trying to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is real life. That is real mukti. In the Bhāgavata it is said, mukti means hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti means you have to give up your artificial ways of life and you have to situate yourself in your normal constitutional position. That is called mukti. Mukti hasn't got any other definition. Mukti means just like you are attacked with fever. If your fever is gone, then you are mukta, you are liberated from fever. Similarly, this disease, ahaṁ mameti… [SB 5.5.8]. I am in this material world, I am thinking this body as myself, I am identifying with this body, and according to that bodily relation, I am identifying my… Mamāham iti. There are thousands of women, but the one woman who has got bodily relationship with me, (s)he is my wife. There are thousands of children, but the one children or two children who has got bodily relation with me, they are my sons, my daughters. Mamāham iti manyate. Then our… First of all, this whole world is based on sex life, either in human society or animal society or bird society or tree society or aquatic society, any society, go. The central point is sex life. Sex life. And as soon as we unite with sex life, our, this bodily concept of life becomes more and more entangled. Then we want… Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam [SB 5.5.8].

So actually, in this material existence we are forgetting our real constitutional position, that we are all eternal servant of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. But some way or other, we have come to this material world for enjoying, for lord it over the material nature. And that is not possible. You cannot lord it over. The Lord is Kṛṣṇa, but we are trying to be lord. And the endeavor, the labor which we are giving incessantly, that we are thinking happiness. The nature, the material nature, is putting stumbling block every time. That, to overcome the impediments offered by the material nature and our trial for overcoming that stumbling block, that is our endeavor. And we are thinking this is happiness. Just like you are making one high road and there is, material nature is offering a big hill, a big mountain before you. Now you have to make tunnel. You have to call for dynamite and try to penetrate through the hill. That struggle is known as advancement of material condition. That you cannot. In America and other materialistic countries we see-here also, in Japan-they are laying down one kind of road for plying their motorcars. After some years it becomes a problem-another flyway, another flyway. So this is going on. This is called struggle for existence. We are trying to conquer over the stringent laws of material nature, and that labor, that useless spoiling our life, we are thinking that we are…, this is happiness. This is called māyā. We are actually giving service to the māyā instead of giving service to Kṛṣṇa. This is illusion.

Now, if you change your consciousness, that "I have never been satisfied, happy, by giving service to the māyā. Now let me serve Kṛṣṇa," that is your liberation. That is your liberation. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You come under Me." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. This is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are actually struggling with material nature to become happy. But it is not possible to conquer over the material nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult. You cannot do it. Then how I can get from the clutches of the hands of material nature? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "You simply surrender unto Me," Kṛṣṇa says, "and you immediately get rid of this māyā." There are many greatly, great saintly persons. They are trying to get out of the clutches of māyā, to become liberated. But here is the simple process: simply you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. He personally advocated. It is not that we are manufacturing in some way. It is spoken by Kṛṣṇa Himself, that "You simply surrender unto Me, and immediately you are out of the clutches of māyā." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

So I do not wish to take much of your time, but the thing is that the whole world is struggling hard. They are not in peace. One man is enemy of another man. One nation is enemy of another nation. This is going on. This is… All these things are going on simply due to our forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. The same formula:

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as you forget your relationship with Kṛṣṇa, immediately there is māyā, and she will capture you. And the counterprocess is: as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, the māyā is gone. Just like it is said, kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama māyā andhakāra [Cc. Madhya 22.31]. "Māyā is considered as darkness, and Kṛṣṇa is the sunlight, or sun." So wherever there is sun, there is no darkness. Similarly, wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no more darkness of ignorance. Tasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement. It is not a sentimental movement. It is authorized. It is based on Vedic conclusion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Actually, the Vedas are meant for understanding Kṛṣṇa. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, his studies of Veda is simply useless waste of time. And one who understands Kṛṣṇa simply, he has studied all the Vedas. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada-pañcarātra]. Kṛṣṇa also said that,

teṣām evānukampārtham

aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ

nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho

jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

[Bg. 10.11]

Do not think that those who are devotees of Kṛṣṇa, those who are fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they are ignorant. No. Kṛṣṇa from within, He is giving intelligence. He gives intelligence to the devotees. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam [Bg. 10.10]. He will give. Kṛṣṇa is within your heart. Simply you have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and everything will (be) supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Especially He says, teṣām evānukampārtham: "In order to show them special mercy." To whom? Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam If you engage yourself in the service of the Lord, bhajatām, with love and faith, then Kṛṣṇa is within you-He will give you all intelligence. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. He gave the intelligence. That is… We are describing how He gave intelligence to Lord Brahmā, who is the creator of this universe.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is neither new nor any concocted manufactured thing. It is authorized, based on the Vedas, based on the Vedic authorities, and it is very simple and it has become simplified by the mercy of Lord Caitanya. Because Lord Caitanya is Kṛṣṇa Himself. When Kṛṣṇa said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], many fools and rascals could not accept it. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtina narādhamāḥ. Those who are miscreants, those who are lowest of the mankind, those who have lost their knowledge, they cannot. And those who are mūḍhas, rascals, they cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa again, in the form of a Kṛṣṇa devotee, Lord Caitanya, He came. He taught how to love Kṛṣṇa. Premā pum-artho mahān. That is the philosophy of Lord Caitanya, Kṛṣṇa-prema. You have to increase your love for Kṛṣṇa. We have got our love, dormant love, but that love is now being distributed in so many ways, and we are spoiled, we are frustrated. But if you concentrate your love, oh, upon Kṛṣṇa, then you will not only love Kṛṣṇa; you will love the whole human society, whole living entities. That is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. So the process is very easy, given by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You will increase ānandāmbudli. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. In this present age, in this Kali-yuga, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā, very simple. You may remain a family man. You may remain a renounced man. It is very difficult in the present age. Practically, sannyāsa is forbidden in this age. So you remain (in) your position. But our only request, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, and gradually you will be emancipated, liberated. You will get your light. Everything will come one after another.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause) (end)

720518LE.LA

Lecture

Los Angeles, May 18, 1972

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) So ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. As you know, from the very name, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness,"… When this society was registered in 1966 in New York, some friend suggested that the society may be named as "God consciousness." Kṛṣṇa, they thought that Kṛṣṇa… In the dictionary also, it is said, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god's name." In English dictionary. But actually, if there is any name or if there any name can be fixed up for God, it is Kṛṣṇa. God has practically no name. "No name" means He has name, but nobody knows how many names He has. Yes, that is the way. Because God is unlimited, therefore His names must be also unlimited. You cannot fix up one name. Just like Kṛṣṇa is sometimes called Yaśodā-nandana, the son of Mother Yaśodā. That is quite all right, because He played the part of son of Yaśodā-mā. So Yaśodā-nandana means son of Yaśodā. Devakī-nandana, son of Devakī. Vasudeva-nandana, Nanda-nandana, Pārtha-sārathi. Pārtha-sārathi means He acted as the charioteer of Arjuna, Pārtha, the son of Pṛthā. Arjuna's mother's name was Pṛthā. So Arjuna's another name-Pārtha. And because He acted as the charioteer of Pārtha, His name is Pārtha-sārathi. So actually, Kṛṣṇa, or God, has many dealings with His many devotees, and that particular dealing may be called His name. Therefore… He has innumerable devotees, therefore He has innumerable names. You cannot fix up one name.

But this Kṛṣṇa name means "all-attractive." He attracts everyone. That is the real name, all-attractive. You have seen Kṛṣṇa's picture. He is attractive to the animals, cows, calves, birds, bees, trees, plants, water, in Vṛndāvana. He's attractive to the cowherds boy. He's attractive to the gopīs, He's attractive to Nanda Mahārāja, He's attractive to the Pāṇḍavas. He's still attractive to the whole human society. Therefore, if any particular name can be given to God, that is Kṛṣṇa. And Parāśara Muni, a great saint, father of Vyāsadeva, who compiled all the Vedic literatures, his father, Parāśara Muni, He gave definition of God:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

ṣaḍ iti bhagaṁ ganā

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

By these six opulences, one can ascertain what is God. What are those opulences? That He's the proprietor of all riches. Here, we have got experience, one rich man. One may be very rich man, but nobody can say that he is the richest, there is no other man who is not richer than him. Nobody can say. But Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, those who have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the history of Kṛṣṇa… We have described in our book, Kṛṣṇa. He had 16,108 wives. And each wife had a big palace, made of marble, bedecked with jewels, the furnitures made of ivory and gold. The descriptions are there. So in the history of the human society, you cannot find out any person who had 16,000 wives and 16,000 palaces. Not only that, it is not that He used to go to one wife's house one day, or one night. No. He was present in every one house personally. That means He expanded Himself in 16,108 forms. That is not very difficult. If God is unlimited, then He can expand Himself in unlimited forms; otherwise there is no meaning of unlimited. If God is omnipotent, He can maintain 16,000. Why 16,000? He can maintain 16,000,000's still, it is imperfect. Otherwise there is no meaning of omnipotency.

So, these are the attractive features. Here in this material world, if one man is very rich, he is attractive. Just like in your country, there are rich men, Rockefeller, Ford. They are very attractive, on account of their richness. So aiśvaryasya sama… Still… They do not possess all the wealth, riches of the world; still, they are attractive. So how much God will be attractive because He's the possessor of all the riches? Similarly, aiśvaryasya samagrasya, vīryasya, strength. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, from the beginning of His birth He had to fight. When he was only three months old… He was lying down on the lap of His mother. There was a Pūtanā demon. She wanted to kill Kṛṣṇa, but she was killed. So that is God. God is from the very beginning God. Not that by some meditation, by mystic power, one becomes God. Kṛṣṇa was not that type of God. Kṛṣṇa was God from the very beginning of His appearance. Vīryasya.

Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya, yaśasaḥ, then reputation. His fame, reputation, is still going on. Apart from us… We are devotees of Kṛṣṇa. We may glorify Him. But apart from us, many millions of people are there in this world; still, they know how much reputed and famous is Kṛṣṇa by His Bhagavad-gītā. In all countries, all over the world. This Bhagavad-gītā is read by all philosophers, all scholars, all religionists. Still, those who are reading Bhagavad-gītā… There are many editions in your country. There are many editions. All of them are selling nicely. Our Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, the latest report is from the trades manager of Macmillan Company, who are our publisher. The report is that our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is is increasing in sale, others are decreasing. The reason is that we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any adulteration. Anything, market, if the commodity is pure… Gold, if it is pure, it has more customers. Milk, if it is pure, it has got more customers. So that we are finding. Because we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we are finding more customers. So, this is the fame. And, yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ. Śriyaḥ, beauty. Kṛṣṇa is Himself very beautiful, and all His associates are very beautiful. That is also opulence.

Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26]. In this material world, those who are pious-that means whose past background is pious life-they get these opportunities, birth in good family, in good nation. Therefore I say so many times that you American people, your birth in a rich nation, your beauty, these are the result of your past pious activities. Attractive. These are attractiveness. You are attractive, the American nation. All over the world. Why? Due to this. You are advanced in scientific knowledge. You are advanced in riches. You are advanced in beauty. So these are the opulences. So this planet is an insignificant planet within this universe and within this planet, say, America is one country. And in that country, if there are so many attractive features, just imagine how much attractive feature must be there in God, who is the creator of the whole cosmic manifestation. How much He must be beautiful, who has created all beauties. Then aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Śriyaḥ means beauty. Jñāna, and knowledge. If one man is perfectly advanced in knowledge, he's attractive. Some scientist, some philosophers, because they give nice knowledge, they're attractive. And Kṛṣṇa's knowledge, they're described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. You can study. You are studying. Now we are presenting in English translation sublime knowledge. There is no comparison in the world. And at the same time, vairāgya, renouncement. Not that because He has got so many things…

Practically, Kṛṣṇa is not here within this material world. Just like a big man, his factory is going on, his business is going on, but it not necessarily he has to be present there. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's potency is working. His assistants, His so many demigods, they are working. They're describe in the śāstra. Just like the sun. Sun is the practically cause of this material cosmic manifestation. That is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā

yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ

rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ

yasyājñayā brahmati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

Govinda, the sun is described as the eye, one of the eyes of God. He's seeing everything. You cannot hide yourself from the seeing of God, as you cannot hide yourself from the sunshine So, in this way, Kṛṣṇa. If God's name, there can be any name… And it is admitted in the Vedic literature that God has got many names, but this Kṛṣṇa name is the chief name. Mukhya. Mukhya means principal. And it is very nicely explained: "all-attractive." In so many ways He's all-attractive. So God's name… The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is propagating God's name, God's glory, God's activities, God's beauty, God's love. Everything. As we have got many things within this material world, all of them, they are in Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you have got.

Just like here, the most prominent feature in this material world is sex attraction. So that is there in Kṛṣṇa. We are worshiping Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, attraction. But that attraction and this attraction is not the same. That is real and here it is unreal. We are also dealing with everything which are present in the spiritual world, but it is only reflection. It has no real value. Just like in the tailor's shop, sometimes there are so many beautiful dolls, a beautiful girl is standing. But nobody cares to see it. Because everyone knows that "This is false. However beautiful it may be, it is false." But a living woman, if she is beautiful, so many people see her. Because this is real. This is an example. Here the so-called living is also dead, because the body is matter. It is a lump of matter. As soon as the soul goes away from the same beautiful woman, nobody cares to see her. Because it is as good as the doll on the window of tailor shop. So real factor is the spirit soul, and because here everything is made of dead matter, therefore it is simply imitation, reflection. The real thing is in the spiritual world.

There is a spiritual world. Those who have read Bhagavad-gītā, they can understand. The spiritual world is described there, paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Bhāvaḥ means nature. There is another nature beyond this nature. We can see this nature up to the limit of the sky. The scientists, they're trying to go to the highest planet, but they are calculating it will take forty thousands of years. So who is going to live for forty thousands of years, go and come back? But there is planet. So we cannot calculate even the length and breadth of this material world, what to speak of the spiritual world. Therefore we have to know from authoritative sources. That authoritative source is Kṛṣṇa. Because we have already described, nobody is wiser or in knowledge than Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa gives this knowledge, that paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo [Bg. 8.20]. "Beyond this material world there is another spiritual sky." There are also innumerable planets. And that sky is far, far greater than this sky. It is one-fourth only. And the spiritual sky is three-fourths. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. This is only one-fourth, this material world. The other spiritual world is three-fourths. Suppose God's creation is one hundred. It is only twenty-five percent; seventy-five percent is there. Similarly, the living entities also, a very small fragmental portion of the living entities are here. And there, in the spiritual world, the major portion are there.

This material world is compared as a prison. So if you go to the prison house, it is not that the whole population of the country is within the prison house. No. A fragmental portion of the population, those who are criminals, they are in the prison house. Similarly, those who are criminals, those who have revolted against God, they are within this material world.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

Māyā… Just like here also, if we say, "I don't care for the government." Then what will be? So treason act. I'll be arrested, I'll be punished. Similarly, living entities are originally part and parcel of God. Just like father and son. The Christian people also understand, God is Supreme Father and we are all His sons. You go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread." Father. So that is conception in Bhagavad-gītā also. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am father of all living entities." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

In all varieties of species of life… There are 8,400,000 species of life. The aquatics, the trees, the plants, the birds, the bees, the insects… Then human beings. And out of the human beings also, there are so many uncivilized. Civilized human beings are very few. And out of the civilized human beings, very few take to religious life. Very few. And out of these so-called religious human society, most of them, they simply designate, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," but they do not know about religion. And one who knows about-not knows, little attracted-they are engaged in philanthropic work. To give help to the poor, or to open a school, hospital. This is called karma-kāṇḍa. Out of many millions of these karma-kāṇḍa people, one is jñānī. Jñānī means "one who knows." And out of millions of persons who know, one is liberated. And out of millions of liberated persons, one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. This is the position of Kṛṣṇa.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

So to understand Kṛṣṇa is little difficult. Actually, to understand God is a subject matter very difficult. But the God Himself is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. "I am this, I am like this. I am like this, this material nature is like this, this spiritual nature is like this, the living entities are like…" Everything are completely described in the Bhagavad-gītā. God Himself, giving His own knowledge, and that is the only process to understand God. Otherwise, by speculation we cannot understand God. It is not possible. He is unlimited and we are limited. Our knowledge, our perception, all of them are very limited. So how we can understand the unlimited? But if we accept the version of the unlimited, that He is like this, like that, then we can understand. That is perfect knowledge. Speculative knowledge of God has no value. Real knowledge, just like… I give this example. Just like if a boy wants to know who is father, who is his father, the simple thing is (to) ask mother. Or mother gives, "Here is your father." That is perfect knowledge. And if you speculate, "Who is my father?" and ask the whole city "Are you my father? Are you my father? Are you my father?" The knowledge will always remain imperfect. He'll never find out what is his father. But this simple process, if he takes the knowledge from (of) his father, the authority, mother, "My dear boy, here is your father," then your knowledge is perfect.

Similarly, transcendental knowledge… Just like I was speaking that there is a spiritual world. It is not the subject matter of our speculation. But when God says, "Yes, there is a spiritual world, that is My headquarters," that is all right. That is all right. Yes. So we receive knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the best authority. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. We are not perfect, but our knowledge is perfect. Because we receive knowledge from the perfect. The same example, that I am not perfect to understand who is my father, but my mother is perfect, and because I accept the perfect knowledge of my mother, therefore my knowledge of father is perfect. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for giving perfect knowledge to the human society: what He is, what is God, what is this material world, why you have come here, why you have to undergo so much tribulation, miserable condition of life, why I die. I do not like to die, but death is compulsory. I do not like to be old man, but still, it is compulsory. I do not like to suffer from disease, but it is compulsory. These, these are to be solved. That is really problems of human life.

Not that improving the method of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. That is not human life. A man sleeps a dog sleeps. So because a man sleeps in a very nice apartment, that does not mean he's advanced more than the dog. The business is sleeping. That's all. Because man has discovered atomic weapon for defending, and the dog has his nails and teeth… He can also defend. So defending is there. You cannot say that "Because I have got this atomic bomb, therefore I can conquer the whole world or whole universe." That is not possible. You can defend in your own way, and the dog can also defend in his own way. So a gorgeous method of defending, a gorgeous method of eating, a gorgeous method of sleeping, and a gorgeous method of sex life does not make a nation or a person advanced. That is not advancement. That is the same thing. Proportionately, five upon two thousand, or five, five hundred upon two thousand and five upon twenty, the same ratio. Therefore, the animal qualities in a polished way, in a scientific way, does not mean that the human society's advanced. That may be called polished animalism. That's all.

Real advancement means to know God. That is advancement. If you are lacking that knowledge, what is God… And because you cannot understand… There are so many rascals, they are denying the existence of God. That is very nice. If there is no God, then they can go on with their sinful activities unrestricted: "There is no God. Very nice." But simply by your denying, God will not die. God is there. God is there, His administration is there. By His order, the sun is rising, the moon is rising, the water is flowing. The ocean is abiding by His order. Everything under His order, everything going on nicely, without any change. How you can say God is dead? If there is some mismanagement, you can say there is no government, but if there is nice management, how you can say there is no government? So God is there. You do not know God. Therefore some of you say that "God is dead," "There is no God," "God has no form," "God is zero," so many things. But no. We are firmly convinced that there is God, and Kṛṣṇa is God, and we are worshiping Him. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand it. Thank you very much…

Devotees: Haribol! (obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Kīrtana, kīrtana. Have kīrtana. (Kīrtana, Śrīla Prabhupāda chants) (end)

720521LE.LA

Sunday Feast Lecture

Los Angeles, May 21, 1972

Prabhupāda: What is the sound? Hm? You'll play mṛdaṅga, I'll sing. (sings Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava. Prema-dhvanī) So this is the true picture of God: Jaya rādhā-mādhava. Jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī. He is simply enjoying, Rādhā-Mādhava. You have seen the picture, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. So eternally engaged in enjoyment, in the association of the gopīs. Gopī-jana-vallabha. And His only business is how to please the gopīs. Just like here, in this material world, the young boy who loves a young girl, he tries to please the girl always. This is natural. Because originally, the same thing is there in God. It is a pleasure. It is a pleasure for the male to please the female counterpart. That is originally created. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir ahlādinī-śaktiḥ. These Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa love affairs is the originally there. Rādhārāṇī, the female counterpart, is the manifestation of ahlādinī-śakti, pleasure potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has got many potencies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. God, God means with His potencies. Just like ordinarily, we are part and parcel of God, a minute particle; still, we have got so many potencies. Every man, every living entity… Not only man, the animals also, they have got various potencies, creative energy. So you just imagine how much creative energies and potencies are there in God. This is the understanding. If I am a little portion, part and parcel of God, I have got so much potencies… "I" means the human being. Or even animal. There are many animals, they have got… Just like a bird. He can fly in the sky without any mechanical arrangement. He has got the potency. You cannot. If you want to fly in the sky, then you have to make some machine. But a small insect, he is flying very freely, without any mechanical… You cannot make such a small machine like an insect. That is not. But God has given him potency, although he's a very insignificant small ant, insect, he can very freely fly. You cannot live within the water. If you want to live within the water, you have to make so many arrangements, submarine and this and that, so many things. But a small fish, he doesn't care even the ocean. Playing. A small fish. When I was walking on the beach of Hawaii, what is that animal with many le…?

Devotees: Crab.

Prabhupāda: Crab. So, when we were walking, they were flying towards the sea. They have got instinct, or reason, that "Somebody's coming. He may kill me. So let me have shelter of the Pacific Ocean." The crab is not going this side, to the forest, because he knows certain that "The forest cannot give me shelter; the Pacific Ocean can give me shelter." This is the psychology. I never seen the crab is going this side, forest side. It is going to the Pacific Ocean side. And, so far as I am concerned, as soon as the waves are coming, I am going away from the ocean. Although I am a human being, I cannot take shelter of the Pacific Ocean, because I have not the potency.

So in this way you have to study. We are samples of God, part and parcel. Just like you take little sample from the Pacific Ocean, a drop of water. You can taste it, and it is salty. You can understand the whole water is salty. Similarly, living entities, they are sample of God, small, very small. You can create one sputnik or jet plane, and you take so much credit, "Oh, I am flying in the sky." But why don't you give the credit to God, who is plying, flying millions of sputniks in the sky? Not small; with so many mountains, seas, houses, trees, plants, and so many things. You can see so many things. The sun planet, the moon planet and others, so many other pla… Koṭiṣu vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam. In each and every universe, there are millions of planets. Koṭiṣu, vasudhādi. Vasudha means planet.

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.40]

The brahmajyoti, yasya prabhā, is the bodily effulgence of God, Kṛṣṇa, Govinda. So on that effulgence, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi, there are innumerable universes. It is not very difficult to understand. Just like you see, in the sunshine innumerable planets are floating. So what is the difficulty to understand that there is a shining effulgence from the body of God, Kṛṣṇa, and in that shining effulgence, innumerable universes are floating? What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. It is most scientific proposal.

So these are the potencies of God. Not that I can show some magic and immediately I become God. Just see the magic, real magic of God. Don't accept cheap God. God must show godly magic. Just like we are showing little magic, floating some airplane or sputnik or jet in the sky. We are taking so much credit, so much credit that scientists are declaring, "There is no God. I am God, because I have made this airplane." And what is your airplane in comparison to these planets? So intelligent person, they will give more credit to God than to these scientists or philosophers. Because he can see the potencies, how much potency is there. So He has many potencies. In the Vedic literature we can understand, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. In the Vedas, Upaniṣad: na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. God has nothing to do personally. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Na tat-samas cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. Nobody is found equal to him or greater than Him. Nobody. That is God. If somebody is competitor, one God competitor, another God competitor… Just like nowadays it has become a fashion to become God, and there are competitions between one "God" and another. But actually, nobody can compete with God. That is God. Na tasya sama. Sama means equal. Adhikasya, or greater. That means greater. That means everyone subordinate. Everyone subordinate. Everyone is lower than God. He may be very powerful, but nobody can be equal or greater than God. That is the Vedic information. Na tasya sama adikasya dṛśyate. We don't find… They are also, great saintly persons, they're researching that who is the greatest personality. Greatest personality. So by research work by great saintly persons, especially by Lord Brahmā… He is the first creature within this universe. So he has found by his spiritual advancement and research work that Kṛṣṇa is the greatest. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. He gives his decision: "The greatest personality is Kṛṣṇa." Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentlemen here. We can analyze who is the greatest here. So, say, for arguing, you can accept that "You are the greatest." But I am not the greatest. I have got my spiritual master. He has got his spiritual master. He has got a spiritual master. In this way, we go up to Brahmā. Brahmā is the original spiritual master within this universe, who gave us the Vedic knowledge. He's therefore called forefather, er, grandfather, pitāmaha. But he's also not independent. In the Vedānta-sūtra or Bhāgavata it is said that Brahmā… He's the first creature. There was no other any other living entity when he was created first. So if I say that he also got knowledge from others, then the argument may be, "Who is the next person to give him knowledge?" So therefore Bhāgavata says, "No. He received knowledge from Kṛṣṇa." How? "From the heart." Tene brahma hṛdā. Hṛdā. Because God, Kṛṣṇa, is sitting in everyone's heart-your heart, my heart, everyone. And He can give you instruction. His name is therefore Caitya-guru. Caitya-guru means who gives conscience and knowledge from within. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: [Bg. 15.15] "In everyone's heart I am sitting." Hṛdi, "within the heart"; sanniviṣṭo, "I am sitting there." Sarvasya. Not only you and me, even animals insects, birds, beasts, Brahma, everyone. Sarvasya. All living entities. So sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ: "from Me"; smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca, "remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness." Forgetfulness also. If you want to forget God, God will give you intelligence that you can forget God forever. He's so kind. Whatever you want, He will give you intelligence, "Do like this."

So there are two things. There are two living entities. One is trying to forget God, and another is trying to remember God. That's all. There are two kinds of people, or men. Men, not the animals. Animals cannot understand what is God. It is the business of human beings. So if you want to know God sincerely, seriously, then God is within yourself. He'll give you intelligence how you can know Him. But if you want to forget God, challenge God, "There is no God. God is dead," then He'll give you such intelligence that you'll always think that there is no God, that God is dead, like that. He'll give some arguments. There are so many atheists, they are also putting their arguments. So wherefrom the argument comes? It comes from God, that "You take this argument and forget God forever." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Vedic knowledge means to understand God. That's all. One who has understood God, he has studied all Vedas. Finished. And one who has not understood God, simply studying this literature, that literature, that scripture, then he's simply wasting his time. That's all. Because (the) ultimate knowledge is God. If one cannot understand what is God after so much education, then Bhāgavata says, śrama eva hi kevalam: [SB 1.2.8] "It is simply labor, labor, waste of time." Simply waste of time. There is no education. Education, knowledge, means ultimately to understand, to know what is God. Actually; not fictitiously, vaguely. So there are many classes of men who have no understanding of God. Some of them are saying, "God is dead," or "God is impersonal," "There is no God," "Zero," "I am God," "You are God," so many things. All these people do not know what is God; therefore there are different theories. Therefore, somehow or other, if you can understand God, then your life is successful. Somehow or other. Because this human life is especially meant for understanding God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta-sūtra… You have heard the name of Vedānta. Vedānta means… Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. The ultimate knowledge. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam: [Bg. 15.15] "The ultimate purpose of reading Vedas is to know Me."

So who can read Vedānta philosophy? A very learned scholar he must be, at least, he must be very learned scholar in Sanskrit. He must have sufficient brain substance to understand what are these Vedānta-sūtras. Because everything is there in a small aphorism. Just like the first aphorism of Vedānta-sūtra is athāto brahma jijñāsā. In three words: atha, ataḥ, brahma, jijñāsā. Four words. So it contains volumes of philosophy. The next aphorism is janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Janma, ādi, asya, yataḥ. "From whom," asya, viśvasya, "of this universe, cosmic manifestation." From where this cosmic manifestation has come, and where it rests, and where it will dissolve. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. In this way, Vedānta-sūtra means, gives you the whole purpose of Vedas, knowledge, in small code words. So to understand these code words, one must have very big brain, or very highly standard educational qualification. Then… All the ācāryas, those who are controlling Vedic civilization, like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they have all written their commentaries on the Vedānta-sūtra. Because unless one explains Vedānta-sūtra, he'll not be accepted as an authorized ācārya. He's not… Not that anyone can become ācārya. He must give explanation of the Vedānta-sūtra, prasthāna-traya. There is system. So ultimately, Vedānta-sūtra, as Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. Sarvaiḥ means including Vedānta-sūtra. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. "I am to be understood." Why? Vedānta-kṛt vedānta-vit ca aham. Vedānta-kṛt, "I am the compiler of Vedānta-sūtra." Vedānta-sūtra was compiled by Vyāsadeva. He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, Dvaipāyana Vyāsa. So therefore, it is compiled by His incarnation, so it is compiled by Him. Because His incarnation, He is the same. So vedanta-kṛt means Veda…, compiler of the Vedānta, and the compiler of the compiler of the Vedānta is vedanta-vit, one who knows Vedānta. Because I have written some book, so I know what is the purpose of writing my book. You cannot know. My purpose you cannot know.

There is a small instructive story in this-not story, fact-in this connection. In Calcutta there was a great dramatist. He was very well known, government officer. He wrote one book, Shah Jahan. That is very famous book for theatrical play. So in that Shah Jahan, means the king emperor Shah Jahan, the… Practically, the name which is given on the book, the hero title, he's the hero. So one of the friends of Mr. D. L. Raya, he inquired from Mr. Raya that "In your book Shah Jahan, the actual hero is Aurangzeb. Why you have given the title Shah Jahan?" He could not understand it. So I'm just trying to explain that the purpose of the book must be known to the author, not others. So the author replied, "My dear friend, the actual hero is Shah Jahan, not Aurangzeb." Although the Shah Jahan book is full of the activities of Aurangzeb, the fact is that Shah Jahan was the emperor. He had many, four or five sons, and his wife died, Mumtaz, at an early age. You have seen, those who have gone to India, you have seen the Taj Mahal building. That building was constructed in the memory of that Mumtaz by Shah Jahan. He spent all his money for constructing that building. So it is one of the seven wonders of the world. So that Shah Jahan lost his wife at an early age. She (he) was very fond of his wife. And because, affectionate father, he did not very much chastise his sons, and he spent all his money in constructing the memory of his wife, so when the sons grew up, the third son, Aurangzeb, came out very crooked. And he made a plan how to usurp the empire. He killed his elder brother and other brothers. He arrested his father, Shah Jahan. So this is the book subject matter, Shah Jahan. So whole activities. But the author says that "Aurangzeb is not the hero; hero is Shah Jahan." Then he explained why. "Now, because Shah Jahan was living, sitting in the Agra Fort as a prisoner, and all the reactions of Aurangzeb's activities, killing of his other sons, usurping the empire, that was beating on his heart; therefore he was suffering. He is the hero."

So this is an example. The author of a book knows very well what is the purpose of that book. That is my statement. Similarly, this Vedānta-sūtra was compiled by Vyāsadeva, or Kṛṣṇa's incarnation, or Kṛṣṇa Himself. So He knows what is Vedānta-sūtra. So if you want to understand Vedānta-sūtra, then you must understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa says also that by studying all the Vedic literature, one has to understand Kṛṣṇa. And He also confirms… And Vyāsadeva explains Vedānta-sūtra in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because He knew that "Vedānta-sūtra, being authoritative version of Vedic literature, so many rascals will comment in different way. Therefore I must leave…" That was also done under the instruction of Nārada. He wrote personally a commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāṣyāyāṁ brahma-sūtrānāṁ vedārtha paribṛṁhitam. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the right commentary by the author Himself. And the vedārtha paribhṛmhitam the purpose of Vedas, the scheme of Vedic literature, is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So this human life…, athāto brahma jijñāsā, means, the Vedānta-sūtra says, that "This life, this human life, is meant for understanding God." Brahma-jijñāsā. At least, not understanding, at least inquiring, jijñāsā. Jijñāsā means inquiring.

So where the inquiry should be made? If I want to inquire about God, shall I go to the storekeeper or drug shop or a motor shop? No. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you want to know the transcendental science, then you must find out a guru. That is injunction. Jijñāsuḥ śreyaḥ uttamam. Guruṁ prapadyeta. Tasmād prapadyeta guruṁ jijñāsuḥ śreyaḥ uttamam. If you are actually inquisitive to understand higher science, uttamam… Uttama means higher. These are not higher sciences, how to earn some money. Earn some money, and eat something, and sleep, and have some sex life, and die-this is not higher science. This is not higher science. Higher science is brahma-jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahman. That is higher science. This science, earning money and fulfilling the hungry belly, this science the birds and beast also know how to do it. It does not require much education. There is no scientific education how to enjoy sex life. Everyone knows how to do it. Similarly, there is no need of scientific education, how to eat or how to find out your food. The birds and beast, they are also finding out, and are they also eating. So these are not higher sciences. The higher science is to inquire, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about God, the Supreme. And that can be done by the human being, not by others. Not the cats and dogs. So if we do not give education of this higher science to the human society, if we keep them dumb about this, or if we make secular state, prohibitive injunction to understand God, then it is an animal society. It is an animal society. So such things happen sometimes.

So there is a narration of King Vena. The King Vena happened to be an atheist king. So because that… The reason is given that his mother was the daughter of an atheist king. Narānāṁ matur lakṣānām. It is a scientific fact that a son inherits the quality of the mother, and a daughter inherits the quality of father. So the King Vena's mother inherited the quality of her father, and the Vena, King Vena, inherited the quality of grandfather, or mother. So he was atheist king, atheistic. When he become king… He was very powerful, strong, but atheist. So when he became king, because he was very powerful, he declared by drum beating… What is that?

na yaṣṭavyaṁ na dātavyaṁ

na hotavyaṁ dvijāḥ kvacit

iti nyavārayad dharmaṁ

bherī-ghoṣeṇa sarvaśaḥ

[SB 4.14.6]

Bherī-ghoṣeṇa means by sound of bugle. Formerly, when there was some declaration by the king, by the government, one should go in the marketplace and, the government men, and take a drum and one bugle, and they'll declare, "This is the law from this day." That's all. No more gazette. So, this is the old system. Somewhere it's still existing. So the Vena king declared that "These are all nonsense." What is this? Na yaṣṭavyam: "No more worship of God, no more sacrifice." Na dātavyam: "No more charity. Stop all this!" Na dātavyaṁ na hotavyam: "No more offering oblations to the fire, sacrifice." Dvijāḥ kvacit iti. This business was meant for the brāhmaṇas; therefore, dvija, he's restricting the brāhmaṇas that "Don't do all this nonsense anymore." Dvijāḥ kvacit. Iti nyavārayad dharmam: "In this way he stopped all religious activities." Bherī-ghoṣeṇa sarvaśaḥ.

So formerly, the king was controlled by saintly persons, by priestly order. They would give the king advice. The Vedic society is divided into four classes of men. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions of men: The brāhmaṇa, the intelligent class of men; the kṣatriyas, the administrative class of men, the martial class of men; and the vaiśyas, the productive class of men; and the śūdras, the worker class of men. That is still existing in a different name, but the difficulty is, the classification is not made according to quality and work. That was the actual position of classification. Nowadays, a śūdra is on the government. A person who is a nonsense number one, he has no knowledge, he is on the head of the government. The things have been topsy-turvied. A person on religious category, he's advocating something, oh, it is not to be uttered. Homosex. You see? He's advocating homosex. Just see. These has been topsy-turvied. The four classes of men are there, still. But the third-class, fourth-class man is taking the place of first class. And the first-class man is kicked out, "Go out. Don't talk of God." This is the position at the present moment. The classes are there. That is natural. There must be some first-class men, there must be some second-class men, there must be some third-class men, there must be some fourth-class men. But the difficulty is that the fourth-class man is taking the position of first-class man, and the first-class man is being kicked out. Therefore there are so many problems in the society. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. First-class man must be acting first class. But he's acting as last class, but he is posed in first class. Things have been topsy-turvied. So it is the duty of the government to find out the first-class man and employ him for first-class business, first-class activities. And what is that first-class activity? The first-class activity is athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is first-class activity. Otherwise, it is fourth-class activity. If the human society is not divided into right order, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. And it is the duty of the government to see that the first-class man is employed in first-class activities, the second-class man is engaged in second-class activities. Then the government will be nice. Now here, the Vena Mahārāja, he's on the head of the administration, royal king. Now he is advising, "Reject religion. No more charity, no more sacrifice, no more worship. Stop all this nonsense." Then what is the condition of the society? So that is being done.

So it will take some time to explain about these activities of first-class, second-class, third-class men. It is a great science. So we shall try to explain, one after another. You please come on Sunday. I shall hold this class. For the time being, excuse me.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

720607LE.LA

Lecture Excerpt

Los Angeles, June 7, 1972

Prabhupāda: This is the secret. People are trying to bring in peace and prosperity in the world by so many activities-philanthropism, altruism, nationalism, socialism. And so-called religion also, they are trying to bring in. The whole idea is the human society should remain in peace and prosperity. And the vivid example is the United Nations in your country. America invited all nations that "Let us form a community of United Nations," but the America herself is fighting. You see? Because the idea was there to unite, but they do not know the basic principle, how to unite. That is the defect. There is a church in the United Nations, and we tried to get a room there for making our propaganda. The church unity denied to give us. So their crippled mind is not expanded. Sa mahātmā… Mahātmā means broad-minded. Su-durlabhaḥ. So mahātmā, unless one becomes nonenvious, mahātmā, there is no question of so-called unity or fraternity. These are all false propaganda. It is not possible. But they will stick to that proposition, that "We have got this…" For the last twenty years… Why twenty years? More than twenty years. When this United Nations was started?

Viṣṇujana: Even… Right after World War One they began.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometime 1948, '47. Hm? Or earlier. Anyway, it is more than twenty-five, twenty years. But what they have done? The people are still fighting. So here is the…, that we have to dovetail our service, we have to make Kṛṣṇa center. The Communists also, they tried to make by making the state as center. So that is also failure. Or the United Nations also. I do not know what is their center. Their center is politics, that's all.

So in this way there cannot be complete harmony. Complete harmony will be possible only when you bring in Kṛṣṇa. That will be explained in the next verse. Īśāvasyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Unless you bring Kṛṣṇa, or īśa… Īśa means the supreme controller. He is actually controlling. Īśa. Īśa means the controller. So there is a supreme controller. We see in the, in our experience, that some of the objectives are living and some of them are not living. Animate or inanimate-these two things we see in our experience. But above this animate and inanimate there is supreme animate. That supreme animate is called īśa. Īśa or īśvara means controller. So there are many īśvaras, or controllers, but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. There are many controllers. Some of you are also controller, in charge of some department. Similarly, controller over controller, controller over controller-there are many. And go up to Brahma. The first creature within this universe is supposed to be the controller of this universe. But above him, there is another controller. That is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro. The material scientists, they are finding out the sun is the cause of all material manifestation. Actually, that's a fact. But what is the sun? The sun is also being controlled. That is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā: Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejaḥ. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā. Savitā means the sun is the eye of the Supreme Lord, seeing everything. You cannot hide anything. The sun, the moon, the day and the night, everyone is seeing your activities. And besides that, the Lord is within you also. So where you shall hide your sinful activities? You cannot hide anything. You can hide from the state laws, but you cannot hide yourself from God's law. That is not possible. Īśāvasyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everywhere He is present. So, yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. Actually, the sun is the eye of all the planets. Now we are in this planet, earthly planet. So actually our eyes are the sun. When there is sunrise, then we can see, "Oh, here it is, here it is, here it is." So, yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. All the planetary systems that are existing within this universe, the sun is the eye because he is the eye of the Supreme Lord. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā. It is the king of all planets. Rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejaḥ. Aśeṣa-tejaḥ, unlimited temperature. Unlimited temperature. Aśeṣa-tejaḥ. And it is so powerful and so important, but what is his position? Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro. Under the direction of the Supreme, it is rotating in its own orbit. The sun has its own orbit. Just like this earth has its own orbit, similarly, sun, sambhṛta-kāla-cakro, yasyājñayā… The sun cannot go beyond that orbit. Just like we go to the sea. The order is, "My dear Pacific Ocean, you may be very great, but you cannot come beyond this." We are walking daily on the beach. Just four feet away, the water is there, but it cannot touch because the order is, "No, you cannot come. Up to this, that's all."

So everyone is … Just like you have seen the horse is controlled by the driver, similarly, all of us are being controlled. So we should remain controlled. That is life. We should not declare that "No. I don't want to be controlled." Then you'll fall down immediately. If you remain in your position, being controlled, being predominated… Don't try to be predominator. Oh, then immediately fall down, because you are not predominator. It is a false claim that "I want to predominate. I am God. I am predominator. I am this. I am that." These are all rascaldom. Simply you remain yourself predominated. Agree to be controlled by Kṛṣṇa, and your life is successful.

Thank you very much. (end)

720608LE.LA

Lecture Excerpt

Los Angeles, June 8, 1972

Prabhupāda: The person in knowledge, he must see that "I cannot avoid death, I cannot avoid birth, I cannot avoid old age, I cannot avoid disease so long I have got this material body." But Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: "Anyone who understands Me in reality, what I am, then he immediately becomes immune from these four things." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this… This body we have to give up. And then next body, tathā dehāntara-prāptir… So a devotee at least is not going to be cats and dogs or trees. The nondevotees, they are. Now they are… Now the modern advancement is to be naked. So these people are going to be trees. You know Yamalārjuna. You have seen the picture. They were dancing and they were taking bath naked, and they were not ashamed when Nārada Muni was passing. So he cursed them that "You are so fool, you have lost your sense. All right, next life you become a tree, immediately." So these senseless, shameless persons who are advancing in their knowledge by becoming naked, they are going to be tree next life. The naked tree is standing naked for many thousands of years. Or animals-they have no shame. So if human being becomes so shameless, then next life is to become animal and trees. But in the universities they say that "What is the wrong if I become an animal?" I asked them, "Do you like to be animal?" "Yes." "Then all right, next time you become animal. (laughter) This is your… I give you this blessing. That's all." (laughter) Flatly said, "Yes, yes, I will be happy." All right, say it. Kṛṣṇa is so kind: "You want to be naked? All right, you become naked for ten thousand years and stand up."

So therefore to save ourself from degradation, to save our, this life … We are actually, we are all eternal, but because we don't want Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we want animal consciousness, tree consciousness, animal consciousness. So Kṛṣṇa is very kind: "All right, you become tree. What can I do?" Kṛṣṇa is always ready to give you all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your choice whether you are going to dance with Kṛṣṇa or you want to become naked tree standing for ten thousands of years. That is your choice. A living entity has got this independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru: [Bg. 18.63] "I have spoken to you about things as they are. Now it is up to you to make your choice. Whatever you like, you can do." So Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante… [Bg. 4.11]. If you want from Kṛṣṇa that you want to become a tree, so it is not very difficult for Kṛṣṇa to make you a tree. He's all-powerful. He can do that. But if you want, "Kṛṣṇa, I want to be with You personally," that also Kṛṣṇa can give you. So now make your choice. This is the human form of life. The animal cannot. The śāstras, the messages are not for the animals; it is for the human being. Therefore don't spoil your life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. Have kīrtana (end)

720701AD.SD

Hare Krishna Festival Address

San Diego, July 1, 1972,

At Balboa Park Bowl

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen. I thank you very much for your coming here and participating in this great movement known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement was started five hundred years ago by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu in a, a place which is now known as Nadia. It is a district in West Bengal, about sixty miles north of Calcutta. Lord Caitanya appeared there about four hundred and eighty-five years ago, and He took sannyāsa. Sannyāsa means renounced order of life. According to Vedic civilization, at the end of one's life, one has to take sannyāsa, renounced order of life, no family connection. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, at very early age… He was only twenty-four years old, and He had at His home very nice, young wife and very affectionate mother, but still… (someone in crowd starts yelling)

Guest (1): … I don't believe that that's the truth there. I don't believe that is the truth. Get out of here!

Guest (2): Talk louder!

Prabhupāda: What does he say? (chuckles) (devotees laugh nervously)

Guest (1): I'm talking about sex…

Revatīnandana: Says he's talking about death.

Girl: Why don't you get up here and say it?

Viśvareta: Prabhupāda, he says he wants to have sex more than once a month.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Viśvareta: The man says he wants to have sex life more than once a month.

Prabhupāda: No… He's creating disturbance. (pause) So as this man is talking about sex, so this world's, material world, is enchanted by sex. That is material world. Striya, puṁsāṁ striya mithuni-bhāvam etad. This whole material world is existing on sex attraction. Not only in the human society, in animal society also, this sex impulse is there. Birds, beasts, animal, human being, even demigods, they are attracted in this material world by sex impulse. The śāstra, or the Vedic literature, there is mention about this, that we are in this material world only for this sex impulse. First of all, we think of sex. A man also thinks. A woman also thinks. And when they are united, that attraction becomes more and more complete. Then, in a gentlemanly way, when there is sex unity, then there is need of a nice apartment or house. Then there is need of land. Formerly, for living condition, everyone possessed some land to grow foodstuff. Ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ. So after sex unity, there is need of house, land, gṛha, kṣetra, then children, ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-suta, āpta. Then friends. Then vitta, then money. In this way, we increase our attachment for this material world. Janasya moho 'yam. Moha means illusion. In this way, he becomes illusioned. Ahaṁ mameti: [SB 5.5.8] "I" and "mine." Here, the real problem is we want to get out of this material conditional life. We are spirit soul. We are not matter. But in order to enjoy this material world we have come here. Every one of us who is existing within this material world has a desire to lord it over the material nature. It is said when a living entity, a part and parcel of God, he desires independently to enjoy or to lord it over the material nature, he comes down from the spiritual world to this material world. That is the cause of his falldown.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

Māyā means the illusory energy, where we want to enjoy, but it is not actual enjoyment. It is illusion. So the sex life in this material world is the center of this attraction.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is how to get the living out…, living entity out of this material entanglement. Because real happiness is not sensual happiness. Real happiness is above the senses. It is supramental sense, or spiritual sense. With the gross senses, what we enjoy, that is temporary. It is not permanent. Permanent enjoyment is transcendental sense enjoyment. There is in the Vedic literature a verse:

ramante yoginaḥ anante

satyānanda cid-ātmani

iti rāma-padenāsau

paraṁ brahmābhidhīyate

[Cc. Madhya 9.29]

Yoginaḥ, those who are yogis… Yogis means those who are trying to reawaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's called yogi. Our present consciousness is material consciousness. The material consciousness, the sex urge is very strong. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. It is said in the śāstra that the gṛhamedhi, those who are attracted by this material world, their center of enjoyment is sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. This sex urge is a, a sort of itching sensation. Kaṇḍūyanenam. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. By satisfying this itching sensation, he becomes entrapped in so many ways. So many ways. That's a fact. Apart from those who are enjoying illicit sex, even those who are enjoying sex in regulated principles, they are also entrapped. Take, for example, one regular householder. In your country, it is different social situation, but in our country, in India, a family life is a great responsibility. The father and mother has to take full responsibility for education of the children, grow up nicely, and the father, mother is under obligation to get the boys and the girls married. Unless the children are married, the father's or the mother's responsibility continues. That is our social system, at least in India, those who are following Vedic principles of life. Especially for getting married the daughter, it is called kanyā dāya. Pitṛ-ṛṇa putra-ṛṇa matṛ-ṛṇa. We have got so many debts to clear. This is responsibility. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇāṁ pitṝṇām [SB 11.5.41]. We are indebted to the demigods. Just like sun is one of the demigods. We are getting, enjoying the sunshine. We are indebted to him. This is responsibility. Suppose if you take electricity, light, you are responsible for paying the bill. Similarly, you are taking so much advantage of the sunlight. You are also obliged to pay the debts, repay the debts. Deva ṛṣi. Ṛṣi means those who have given us the Vedic literature. Just like Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva, they have given us… Vyāsadeva given us immense literature. Immense literature. He has written Mahābhārata. He has written the eighteen purāṇas. One of the purāṇas is the Bhāgavata Purāṇa. And he has written the Upaniṣads. Then he has compiled the Vedānta-sūtra. And each and every book, there are innumerable verses. In Mahābhārata there are 100,000's of verses. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 18,000 verses. And if you study one verse, it will take at least one week to understand. So grave thoughts. So therefore, we are reading all these Vedic literatures. Certainly, we are indebted to them.

So we are indebted to the demigods. Just like the sun-god, the moon-god, the Indra. Indra is supplying us water. Of course, in your country, there is no such conception. But the Vedic knowledge gives us full information how water is being supplied, how light is being supplied, how air is being supplied by the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Don't take it irresponsibly. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has arranged so many things. Just like in your city there is department of water supply, there is department of light supply, there is depart…, different departments, similarly, in the kingdom of God there are departments. But because we are foolish, we do not know how the departments are being conducted. So we are not paying any bills. The bills are paid, according to the Vedic injunction, by performing sacrifices. So in this way, our point is sex life, that, the, a gṛhastha, a householder, he has got debts towards his parents, towards his father, towards his mother, towards his wife, towards his children. The society should be human society, not the cats' and dogs' society. That is Vedic conception. So in the Vedic conception of life the sex life is there, but you become indebted. You must repay the debts. If you simply beget children like cats and dogs and go away, then you become responsible for the sinful activities. You must take responsible. So this man was suggesting, he wants sex life at least once in a month. Yes, that is allowed. That is allowed in the Vedic civilization. When the wife is in menstrual period, after five days of the menstrual period, the wife and husband can have sex life for begetting rightful children. And before be getting a child, one must go… If he is in the higher orders of society, one must accept the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra means that child born out of the sex life of the father and mother must come out a very nice child, not like the cat and dog. That is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Those who are in the higher position of the society, they are obliged to observe ten kinds of purificatory processes, out of which, the first purificatory process is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. So the parents, when they take to sex life for begetting nice children, there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, and if one does not observe this garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, he immediately falls down to the group of śūdra from brahminical position. These are the injunctions in the Vedic literature. Sex life is not denied, but one must take responsibility for sex life; otherwise, he becomes entangled in so many sinful activities.

Because here in the material world, everyone is a criminal. Just like in the prison house, when a criminal is there, in every state there is law. He cannot violate the laws of the prison house. Similarly, here also, in this material world, who have come here to enjoy… There is no enjoyment. There is simply suffering. But we take sufferings as enjoyment. That is called illusion. Anyway, the Vedic principle has allowed everything. Because here we have come to enjoy so-called sense gratification. That is illusion. So there is regulated principle. You can have sex life once in a month. That is prescribed. Because the woman has once in a month menstrual period. So sex life is meant for simply begetting nice children, not for sense gratification. Therefore, because the woman is, gets the menstrual period once in a month, therefore the man can have sex life just after the menstrual period, over, after five days, he can sex life, have sex life with his wife under garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, responsibility. Otherwise he becomes implicated in sinful activities. That is Vedic injunction. So sex life is not denied. Just like in our society, the boys and girls, they come to our society, and as far as possible, we get them married. We don't allow to live, the boys and girls and friends, like friends. No. That is a great sinful activity. So nothing is denied. The problem of life is eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So everything is there, but in a regulated form. In regulated form so that the world may not become hell. If it is irregulated form, then the whole world will be hell. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, narakāya varṇa-saṅkaraḥ. When we produce unwanted children, the whole world becomes just like hell. It is going to happen like that at the present moment. The sex life is not denied. The point is discussed because it was raised. Sex life is not denied, but in a regulated form so that you can get nice population, you can live very happily. Not that you produce unwanted children and they turn out rogues, thieves and drunkards, like that. That is not allowed. You must produce nice children. For that purpose, sex life is allowed. And especially in this age, at the present moment, if you can produce children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that will be a great service to the Lord. Because we want now Kṛṣṇa conscious population. Otherwise this world is going to hell. That's a fact. We are dwindling, liquidation. There were great empires like Roman empire, Greece empire, Carthaginian empire and, later on, Moghul empires, British empire. So many empires there were. There was Hitler. There was Mussolini. There was Napoleon. So these powerful emperors or men came and gone. Their name is only there, and nothing is remaining.

So I came to your country. Your country is very nice country, America. I heard it from India. So I decided to come here because I heard that your country's very nice. And when I came here, I saw actually your country is very nice. Your cities, your buildings, your men also… Because mostly my students, they are Americans, and they help me very kindly to push on this movement. So I have studied the American life, very nice. They have good heart. So only thing is wanted-Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, despite your all opulences, you are becoming confused and frustrated. I hear that out of three, one man is a patient of a psychiatrist. Why? Why you are unhappy? Why you should be unhappy? You have got everything-enough food, enough land, enough money, enough intelligence. Why you should be unhappy? The cause you should try to find out. The cause is that without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without God consciousness, nobody can be happy. That is the cause. So my request is that this movement is started from America, from New York. In 1966 I registered this movement, International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, and since then, we are spreading. In your country, we have got about fifty branches, all over the country, America. And we have got other branches also, about fifty, in Europe, in Canada, in Australia, in New Zealand, in Japan. In India also. India, of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known since a very, very long time. At least, everyone in India knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he may not be seriously engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but even a street man, a street boy, knows what is Kṛṣṇa. In your country, this, this movement is started since 1966, but in '67 I was sick. I went back to India and again came back in 1968, and since that time, we are pushing on this movement little, very highly, and it is being effected. It is being effected. People are understanding. So my request is that you have got all material resources. Don't waste your time. Life is very valuable, especially this human form of life. Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. This human form of life is achieved after many, many births of evolutionary process. We had to undergo 900,000 species of life in water. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Two millions of species of life through plants and trees. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ. Eleven hundred thousand species of life of insects and reptiles. Pakśiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam. And one million species of life amongst the birds. Then triṁśal-lakṣāṇi paśavaḥ: and then three million species of life amongst the beasts. In this way, there are four hundred thousand species of human form of life, out of which, the civilized form of life, when our consciousness is developed, that is the opportunity to understand what is God, what I am, what is my relationship with God, what is this material world, how I shall treat. That is needed. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human, this civilized form of human life is meant for inquiring about Brahman, the Supreme, the Absolute Truth.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving knowledge about the Absolute Truth, Paraṁ Brahman. The Sanskrit word is Paraṁ Brahman. And Kṛṣṇa is Paraṁ Brahman. If you have read Bhagavad-gītā on the Tenth Chapter, when Arjuna summarizes his understanding after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, he says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: [Bg. 10.12] "Kṛṣṇa, I understand that You are the Supreme Personality, Absolute Truth." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma: "You are the reservoir of everything." Pavitram: "You are the Supreme Pure." Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam: "You are the Supreme Person." Kṛṣṇa, or the Absolute Truth, is not imperson. He's the Supreme Person. He's Supreme Person. He is the Absolute Truth. And we are presenting Kṛṣṇa before you, and you take it. Most of the Western country, they are Christian. So the Christians believe in Lord Jesus Christ as son of God. But we are presenting the father, God Himself. So there is no contradiction. If there is son, there must be a father also. Without father, there cannot be son. So if you believe in the son, then you must believe in the father also. The father is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yaḥ

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

He is the seed-giving father for all living entities. So Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Don't think that Kṛṣṇa, as it is stated in your English dictionary, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu God." He's not Hindu, He's not Muslim, or He's not Christian. He's God. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. It is bodily designations, "I am Hindu, you are Christian." This is bodily… Just like dress. You have got some black coat. Another has got some white coat. That does not meant we are different because we are in different coat or shirt. As human being, we are all sons of God. We are one. That is the conception. So at the present moment, we have divided the world on account of this shirt and coat. That is not. That is not good. Actually, the whole world or the whole universe belongs to God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

We have divided God's land: "This is America. This is India. This is Germany. This is England." But after all, this is our given name. This planet especially… Not only this planet, all other planets, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: He's the proprietor. Formerly, five thousand years ago, this planet was being governed by Kṛṣṇa's representative, Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is actually life. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all planets, and one should be Kṛṣṇa's representative to rule over the planet. That is Vedic system. There cannot be any king or emperor who is not representative of God. It is the duty of the representative of God to take charge of a planet and educate the persons, the citizens, into God consciousness. That is Vedic way of life. Not that the chief executive or the government simply levies taxes from the citizens and let them go to hell. This is not good government. The government must be responsible for the uplift of the citizens to the spiritual life. That is real government.

So that was being done five thousand years ago by Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Mahārāja Parīkṣit, those who have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is this… Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins from the question of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Mahārāja Parīkṣit, at the last stage of his life, when he was to live for seven days only, he decided to hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and become liberated from this material life. And it so happened. The idea is the Mahārāja Parīkṣit was so pious that, that when he was touring in his kingdom all over the world, he found one man, one black man was trying to kill one cow. Immediately, Mahārāja Parīkṣit took his sword and wanted to kill the man. He was Kali. So "Who are you, that you are killing cow in my kingdom?" So formerly, when the whole world was under the one king of the Pāṇḍavas, just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, there was equal protection for the animals and the man. Not that man should be given protection by law, and not the animals. The animals, they're also national. What is the meaning of "national"? One who is born in that land. Suppose you are American. You are born in this land of America; therefore you are American national. Why not the cats and the dogs and the cows? They are also national. So this is injustice, that to give protection to the human kind and to send the animals to the slaughterhouse. This, this inequality, discrimination between man and animal is due to lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one becomes actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, he does not make such distinction that a man should be given protection and the animal should be killed. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a, a spiritual movement. It is reformatory movement, inclusive all sides of life. Don't think that we are simply chanting and dancing. Our philosophy includes all different activities of humankind, either it may be religious or political or social or cultural. Anything. Industrial-everything. So my request is that this movement was started in your country, and these American boys and girls, they have taken it seriously. So kindly cooperate with this movement, and you'll be happy. That is my request.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) Kīrtana. (end)

720712LE.LON

Lecture

London, July 12, 1972

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your participating in this saṅkīrtana movement. This movement was started by Lord Caitanya five hundred years ago in India, West Bengal. (noises in background) (aside:) What is that sound? That sound cannot be stopped?

Haṁsadūta: That's the speaker system, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: But this movement is not five hundred years old. It is coming since very, very long time. As we have advertised, bhāgavata-dharma. This is part of bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma was explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja, a great devotee of Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, Nārāyaṇa, some millions of years ago. His father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, atheist. He did not believe in God. But by the grace of Nārada Muni, his son, from the very womb of his mother, he was initiated in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And after his birth he became a great devotee. And when he was only five years old he was preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement amongst his class fellows. He was little boy, king's son. He had no opportunity to go out of the palace. Still, he took the opportunity of speaking something about this bhāgavata-dharma amongst his class fellows. So he was canvassing his class fellows, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

The bhāgavata-dharma is called…

etāvaj janma-sāphalyaṁ

dehinām iha dehiṣu

prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā

śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā

Bhāgavata-dharma, execution of bhāgavata-dharma. There are different types of dharma. Dharma means the codes of God, the laws of God. This is real dharma, or religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the codes, the laws, which is given by God. This is the simple definition of God, er, of dharma. (child screaming) (aside:) It is disturbing. This child is… (pause)

Pradyumna: If the children are noisy, they can go outside and…

Prabhupāda: So "religion," this English word, is not sufficient translation of the word dharma. Religion… According to English language, religion means a kind of faith. You may believe in some faith. Somebody believes in Hindu religion; others may believe in Christian religion. One may become a Christian from Hindu, or from a Hindu to Christian. Generally, we find these changes. But a dharma does not mean like that. Dharma means which you cannot change. It is the constitutional part of your life. So Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Dharma, the so-called religion, kaitava, which is cheating. Kaitava means cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita. Projjhita means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa ujjhita, thrown away, kicked away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. So there are different kinds of dharmas, faith. But what is real dharma, real religion? Real religion is, as described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Real religion is the codes which is given by God. Just like you may have some by-laws in your office or in your home, but there is state law. That you cannot, I mean to say, disobey, state law. Just like in your country the state law is that "Keep to the left." In America the state law is "Keep to the right." So here we have to obey. If you drive your car, keep to the left. You cannot disobey. You cannot say, "I am American. I go in my country on the right. Why shall I drive on the left?" No. Because it is the state law you must obey. Similarly, dharma is such a thing that you cannot disobey. You must obey because it is the codes given by God. If you are so much respectful to the laws of the state, how much respectful you should be to obey the laws given by God.

So we find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is real dharma. Kṛṣṇa says in the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya sambhavāmi yuge yuge: "I descend in different millenniums," yuge yuge, "for establishing the real dharma, real religion."

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

[Bg. 4.7]

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ

vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām

dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya

yuge yuge sambhavāmi

[Bg. 4.8]

So God descends, He comes Himself or He sends His representative, to reestablish the real purpose of religion, whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of discharging real religion. So the real… Kṛṣṇa, when appeared, He said… His last instruction is… In the Bhagavad-gītā, you know, those who have read Bhagavad-gītā. He said, "The most confidential part of religion is this." What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all other processes of faith and religion. Simply surrender unto Me." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Religion means to become purified, to become purified from our sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa says that "If you surrender unto Me…" When I speak "Kṛṣṇa," you may understand "God." God is speaking that "You surrender unto Me and I'll give you protection from the reaction of all sinful activities." In this material world we are encaged in this material body for our sinful activities, different types of sinful activities. So our aim of life is to get out of these sinful activities and be situated in our own original position, constitutional position, spiritual position. Because we are part and parcel of God, we are as pure as God, but we have been contaminated by this material association, and therefore we have got different types of bodies, encagements. And according to the different types of bodies we have to enjoy or suffer the material atmosphere. This is our position. So bhāgavata-dharma means to surrender unto God. That's all. Very simple thing. And Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is teaching us this bhāgavata-dharma, how to surrender. He demanded that "You surrender unto Me." But still, people misunderstood Him.

Therefore He again came, Kṛṣṇa again came in the form of Lord Caitanya, as a devotee, and He taught us how to approach Kṛṣṇa, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So this bhāgavata-dharma is eternal. As long as we are there, as long God is there, our relationship with God, that is called bhāgavata-dharma. Bhaga. Bhaga means fortune. Bhaga means fortune, and bhagavān… Bhagavān means who is the most fortunate or who has got all the opulences. So God has got all the opulences. And one who is in association with God, he has also all the opulences. And the exchange between God and the devotee in all opulences, it is called bhāgavata-dharma.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja is preaching amongst his class fellows, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha.

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

He says, "My dear friends…" Because the friends were born of atheist family. Prahlāda Mahārāja also, his father was atheist. So they were not agreeable to their friend's advice, Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja canvassing to his friends, little friends, "My dear friends, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And they were replying, "Prahlāda, why you are insisting us to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Let us play. We shall see Hare Kṛṣṇa at the time of death." But he was insisting, "My dear friends, no." Kaumāra ācaret prājño. "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be studied, should be understood from the very beginning of boyhood, kaumāra." Kaumāra means boyhood. From… Boyhood means from the age of five years. As education begins at the age of five years, similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or bhāgavata-dharma, should be taught to the children as soon as the child is five years old. That is his instruction. "Why so early? We can understand about God later on." No. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabham, "very rarely." "My dear friends, you have got this human form of life after many, many births." The modern civilization, they do not know. The university education, they do not know. The scientists, they do not know. There is a false theory, Darwin's theory, about evolution of species. But that is not perfect knowledge. That is simply an idea taken from Purāṇas. In the Purāṇas, this Darwin's theory is not new to the Vedic knowledge. It is a theory only. But actual fact is different.

Actual fact is described in the Purāṇas, where it is described, aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu. Jīva-jāti, different species of life. There are 8,400,000's of different species of life. Aśītiṁ catura. Aśītim means eighty, and catura means four. Eighty-four, lakṣāṁs, 100,000. Jīva-jātiṣu, there are different species of life. They are developing. Because after devastation, the whole universe is filled up with water. So in the water the first living beings are the fishes or the aquatics. Then that fish or aquatic means a living entity embodied by that fish body. Just like we are now, every one of us… I am also a soul, you are also a soul. We are embodied by this body, human form of body. Similarly, we had to accept the body of a fish. Because we are in this material world, when there is water only, where shall we go? We must live here in this material… Unless we are liberated, we must have to live… And according to the circumstances, we get different types of body. So from the aquatics, next promotion is trees, plants, then insects, then birds, then beasts. In this way, after millions, millions of years… You have seen that a tree is standing for thousands of years. If I get a body of a tree, then I'll have to stand in one place for many thousands of years. Therefore when you come by gradual evolution in the different species of life, by nature when you come to this point, to possess a human form of body, it is very, very rare. That is described: durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabham. Duḥ means difficult, and labha means gain. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam. Adhruvam. He said durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. Although it is also temporary. We shall not live forever with this body. The animals also, they'll also not live forever. The body will be finished after certain period of time. So he says, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "My dear friend, this body, this human form of body, is very, very rarely we have obtained it. Although it is temporary, but there is a great gain." In the animal life, that is also temporary, and this human form of body is also temporary. But the animals cannot get that achievement which we can get. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. Arthadam means… Artha means meaningful or some material profit or spiritual profit.

So we can, by the help of this human form of body, we can achieve some very great profit. That is required. That is the human mission. Not like that, we take our birth like cats and dogs. Everyone takes birth. The process of birth is the same: the male-female sexual intercourse, and there is some child. So there is no difference between the human process of birth and the animal process of birth. There is no difference of living condition of the animal and the human being. Because the animal eats; we also eat. The animal sleeps; we also sleep. The animals have facility for sex life; we have also got the facility of sex life. The animal also defends according to his own way; we can defend with atom bomb. That's all right. But it is defending, nothing more. Therefore, about these four things-eating, sleeping, mating, and defending-they are common. The special feature of this human form of body is that he has developed consciousness how to understand God. The animal hasn't got this. And the process of understanding God and to revive our relationship with God is called bhāgavata-dharma. This is explanation of bhāgavata-dharma. The eating, sleeping, mating, this is also dharma. Dharma means the activities, constitutional activities. Any man or any animal who has got this body, he must eat. This is also dharma. Dharma means which we cannot avoid. Because we have become human beings, it is not that we can avoid eating. That is not… This is also dharma. So this dharma, this practice, this occupation, is visible in animal life and human life. But another thing, the dharma which we actually mean, means to understand God, that is not visible in animal life. That is not possible. Therefore dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. Anyone who does not cultivate religious life, he is no better than an animal. He's animal. If you are simply interested with eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, nothing more, then this is animal civilization. This is not human civilization.

So we have got the opportunity. Why we should accept religious life? To get out of these material clutches. People do not take it very seriously, but those who are intelligent, they take it seriously. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find that living soul, the living entity or the soul… Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The living entity, the soul, is never born; it never dies. It is the oldest. Nityaḥ śāśvataṁ purāṇa. Purāṇa means very old; nitya, eternal; na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, does not die after the destruction of this body. The death and birth is of the body, not of the soul. Therefore when we are actually intelligent, cultured, advanced, then we should be inquisitive that "If I am eternal, then why I am subject to these tribulations of birth, death, old age, and disease?" That is intelligence. It is not intelligence that "The cats and dogs are eating on the footpath; I am eating (in) a very nice plate, nice hotel or nice table." You are eating, that's all. It is not advancement of civilization when you think that you have got good apartment, good house, and sleeping in a nice bedstead, and the cat and dog is lying on the floor or in the street. No. She sleeping; when you sleep, the enjoyment is as good as of the cats and dogs. Similarly, sex life also. They also enjoy, you also enjoy. Then what is your special prerogative? The special prerogative is that you can understand in this life that you are eternal, you are Brahman. Therefore the, in the human form of life, if one is not so advanced as to inquire about the Brahman, athāto brahma jijñāsā… This human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman, or spirit soul. So long this inquiry is not there, one is animal. That's all.

So bhāgavata-dharma is meant for, actually, for the advanced human being. Bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma means to know "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" If you study yourself, you can also understand. Or if you take instruction from the Vedas, then also you can understand. The knowledge is already there. If you take advantage of the knowledge, you can know. But if you make analysis by yourself, then also you'll know. But if you make analysis by education, speculation, it will take long, long years. Because if you don't accept the standard way, then it will waste, you will waste your time. So you will have to come to the same point. But if you are inquisitive, that is your life. If we come to the point of inquiring about "What I am?" Oh, that is great advancement. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. I can understand very well that when… There are so many babies here. I was also a baby. My body, I had a body like a baby on the lap of my mother. I can remember that. Then I became a child, then I became a boy, then I became a young man, now I am old man. Now, the bodies, different bodies, I possessed. I remember. But those bodies are no more existing. Where is my childhood body? Where is my boyhood body? Where is my youthhood body? They're all gone. So although the bodies are gone, I remember that I had a body of a child, I had a body of a boy, I had a body of young man. Therefore I am eternal, my bodies are not eternal. Therefore the conclusion should be: when I change this body, then I'll exist. That is… Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra… [Bg. 2.13]. Everything is there, either you study yourself or take the lesson from the Vedic version.

The Vedic version is that,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Just like the… I am changing, you are changing, everyone is changing. Every second, every moment, we are changing bodies. So similarly, changing of this body, accepting another body. After leaving this body, I'll accept another body. That body is not in my hands. What kind of body I am going to accept next, that depends on my work here, in this body. I am preparing my next body in this life. Just like a child is being, a boy is being educated to prepare his next life. If he is nicely educated, his next life is very bright. If he's not nicely educated, that will be very dark. Similarly, this chance, this human form of body, is a junction. From animal forms of life, by gradual process of evolution, I have come to this human form of life. Now I have to make out next what life. You can promote yourself to the higher planetary systems. You can promote yourself to the spiritual world. You can get your eternal life. That is called arthadam. That achievement you can do in this human form of life. So anyone who is attempting to get eternal, blissful life of knowledge, he is intelligent man. Otherwise, one who is spoiling his life simply for animal propensities, eating, sleeping, mating, he's no better than animal. That's all. Cats and dog. Polished cat, polished dog maybe, but he is animal. This bhāgavata-dharma means that, how to get out of these four defects of material life, or four miserable condition of material life-birth, death, old age and disease-and get eternal, blissful life of knowledge. That is called bhāgavata-dharma.

So it is a great science. It is not sentiment. It is a great science. And anyone can achieve this benefit in this human form of life. Anyone. It doesn't matter what he is, provided he is serious about getting out of these material clutches and regain his spiritual life. That is possible. So Vedic civilization is aimed at this point. Therefore you don't find in the Vedic civilization industrial enterprise or so many material activities. But they were concerned how to get out of these material clutches and regain our original position. That is called mukti, liberation. Liberation means to be situated in our original position. We are part and parcel of God. God… Just like gold and part and parcel of gold is also gold. Therefore the Vedic literature says that "You try to understand that you are also Brahman. God is Supreme Brahman; you are also Brahman. And mold your life as Brahman." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is how to mold this life to understand that we are all Brahman and our original source is the Parambrahman. Just like Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: [Bg. 10.12] "Kṛṣṇa, You are Parabrahman." That is accepted by the Vedas. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). "God" means He is also a living entity as you are, as I am. As we are sitting, I am speaking, we are face to face, similarly, God is also a person like you, like me. But He is very, very powerful. Nityo nitya… Just like here in this material world also I see that you are more powerful than me, and another person is more powerful than you, another person is more powerful than him. If you go on searching, when you find the supreme powerful, that is God. That is God. Supreme powerful. Here, in our relative position, I see that I am powerful, somebody is less powerful than me, and somebody is more powerful than me. This is relative world. Nobody can say that "I am the most powerful. Nobody is more powerful than me." Nobody can say. That is not possible. Similarly, you go on searching who is the most powerful. If you are fortunate enough, if you can find out such a person, the most powerful, nobody is more powerful than Him, that is God. So God's definition is not very difficult. Simply… So we have to go through the śāstras. The Vedic literature says that the supreme powerful is Kṛṣṇa.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "My dear Dhanañjaya, Arjuna, nobody is superior than Me." Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Try to find out your relationship (to) Kṛṣṇa and mold your life in that way. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Indian guest: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: "Is it safe to compare scientific advancement with Bhāgavata, like Darwin and Bhāgavatam."

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by scientific advancement?

Indian guest: Well, material advancement…

Prabhupāda: Material means it is to be finished. Where is the advancement? You do not want to die, but why you die? Where is your advancement?

Indian guest: No, I fully agree with your interpretation of Bhāgavata, but the comparison between Darwin's discoveries and what is mentioned in Bhāgavata, I don't agree with that. It is already mentioned in Bhāgavata, but Swamijī, you are from a different point of view. So…

Prabhupāda: No, that is a wrong theory. Therefore we say. That is a wrong theory. Darwin is studying this body. He does not know. He has no information of the soul; therefore his knowledge is imperfect. His theory is imperfect. It is a long subject matter. If you want to discuss, you come. We shall discuss. It is a wrong theory. That is not scientific advancement. Science means it must be correct. That is science. If science is theory, that is not science. So Darwin is advocating his theory, "May be like this, perhaps like this." This "perhaps," "maybe," is not science. This is only suggestion. We have to deal with the facts. That is science.

Indian guest: Yes, but as you say, there are two ways of reaching the God. Either through the study of Vedas up to…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Through study of Vedas, not study something nonsense. Study of Vedas.

Indian guest: That is up to the level of self-analysis, because it is that time when we compare.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Self-analysis, if you analyze yourself, if you think yourself, meditate, study your finger, "Am I this finger?" the answer will be, "No. My finger." "Am I this hand?" The answer will be, "No, it is my hand." Then where is "I"? That is… If you can study "I," then it is scientific. Simply "my" is not scientific. That is, child knows "It is my finger."

Indian guest: Yes, but, I mean, it is a further word(?) to study oneself.

Prabhupāda: That further means when you come to the conclusion that "I am spirit soul." If you can understand this, then it is scientific. If you remain in ignorance, that "I am this body," that is not scientific. Actually, I am not this body. Everyone can understand. Just like a dead man. Suppose some of your relatives has died. You are crying, "Oh, my friend has gone. My friend has gone." Your friend is lying there. Why you say that "My friend has gone"? What is the answer? If I say… The dead body, you are crying, "Oh, my relative has gone. My father is gone." I say, "Where he has gone? He is there. Why you are crying?" Then what will be your answer?

Indian guest: No, I mean that that is the ultimate scheme for…

Prabhupāda: But that you understand, that that… What is that? What is that? You have never seen your father or friend. You have seen this body. Now you are crying, "Now he has gone." Where he has gone? You have seen the body all along. That is lying here. Why you say he has gone? What is your answer? This is ignorance. All along I am seeing the false thing: "He is my father; I am the body." But he's not my father. Actually, when father, my, goes away from this body, I cry, "Oh, my father has gone." Where he has gone? His, the body is there. This is ignorance. It is not scientific. Because I'm thinking, "I am this body," this is not scientific. This is ignorance. So in this way you have to study. But the answer is there in the Vedic literature: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. "My father has accepted another body." This is scientific. Dhīra, one who is sober, he is not lamenting. Just like your child, from babyhood it becomes grown-up, or acts in another way. You are not crying, "Where is that body of my child, that baby body? Where he has gone?" But you know that he has transferred to this body. Similarly, when you get this knowledge that "My father has left this body, he has accepted another body, although it is not visible," that is knowledge. That is scientific.

Indian guest: Yes, but by average person it is very difficult to reach the light…

Prabhupāda: But therefore he has to study. Every rascal, fool, he has to study. There is education. Therefore Vedic literature is there. If you don't study and you see… If you say, "I am scientific advanced," then what is this nonsense? If you have no knowledge, if you have not studied, why do you say unscientific? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Indian guest: How does repeating one word, "Kṛṣṇa," or singing "Rāma" and "Kṛṣṇa" help achieving the way?

Prabhupāda: Because you'll be in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name not different because Kṛṣṇa is absolute. So you see, these European and American boys and girls, simply by chanting how they are advancing in spiritual consciousness. This is practical, not theoretical. "Kṛṣṇa" means Kṛṣṇa. Just like here in this material world, if I want to drink water, if I say "water, water, water," that will not satisfy me. I want the substance water. So here there is difference between the name and the substance. But in the absolute world there is no such difference. Nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa the person and Kṛṣṇa's name the same thing. Therefore if you chant "Kṛṣṇa," then you are in direct touch with Kṛṣṇa. So that will help you for your spiritual advancement. Just like if you are in touch with fire you will get yourself warmer and warmer and warmer, and at last you'll get red fire. Similarly, if we are in touch with Kṛṣṇa, then we advance spiritually, and then we become completely spiritualized, our original Brahman. This is the process. Simple process. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you'll gradually develop your spiritual consciousness. That is actually happening. It is not story. You can see practically how they are spiritually advancing. So why not experiment yourself? What is the loss? If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, is there any loss? Tell me, is there any loss? But why don't you do it? Why not make a try? Instead of arguing, you see practically what is happening. They are of different civilization, different culture. How they are developing their Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How it is possible? Simply by chanting. This is practical. Throughout the whole world-in Africa, in America, in Canada, everywhere. So this is very simple process. But people will waste their time by arguing. Why not make an experiment and see what is the result? That is our propaganda. (end)

720831SP.NV

Speech

New Vrindaban, August 31, 1972

Prabhupāda:… some of the sannyāsīs will speak or I will speak? Where is Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja?

Śyāmasundara: Maybe someone should introduce the bhāgavata-dharma discourse… Kīrtanānanda?

Prabhupāda: Or Rūpānuga, Rūpānuga Mahārāja….oḥ, it will fall down. You can take this. (conversation between devotees) (japa)

Kīrtanānanda: You can hear?

Devotees: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Everybody can hear. New Vrindaban began when Śrīla Prabhupāda wrote to me about four or five years ago and expressed some desire that we could make a transcendental place of pilgrimage here for the purpose of celebrating the pastimes of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. As already described by Śrīman Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, that this bhāgavata-dharma was spoken by Bhagavān Himself. Bhagavān, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Bhaga-vān. It is a Sanskrit word. Bhaga means fortunes, and vān means one who possesses. These two words combined together makes the word Bhagavān, or the supreme fortunate. We calculate our fortune if somebody is very rich, if somebody is very strong, if somebody is very beautiful, if somebody is very wise, if somebody is in renounced order of life. In this way, there are six opulences, and these opulences, when one possesses in fullness, without any rivalry, he is called Bhagavān. The richest of all, the wisest of all, the most beautiful, the most famous, the most renounced-in this way, Bhagavān. And the bhāgavata also comes from the word bhaga. From bhaga, when it is used a participle objective, it becomes bhaga. So bhāgavata. The same thing, vān, this word is comes from the word vat, vat-śabda. Bhāgavata. In Sanskrit, every word is grammatically very systematically bound up. Every word. Therefore it is called Sanskrit language. Sanskrit means reformed. We cannot manufacture by whims; it must be strictly according to the grammatical rules and regulations. So the bhāgavata-dharma means the relationship between the devotees and the Lord. The Lord is Bhagavān and the devotee is bhāgavata, or in relationship with Bhagavān.

So everyone is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like father and son is always related. That relation cannot be broken (child crying, taken out) at any stage, but sometimes it happens that the son, out of his own independence, he goes out of his home and forgets the affectionate relationship with father. In your country, it is not very extraordinary thing. So many sons go out of father's affectionate home. That is very ordinary experience. So everyone has got independence. Similarly, we are all sons of God, but we are, at the same time, independent. Not fully independent, but independent. We have got the tendency of having independence because God is fully independent, and we are born of God; therefore, we have got the quality of independence. Although we cannot be absolutely independent as God, but the tendency is there that "I shall become independent." So the living entities, we-we are part and parcel of God-when we want to live independently of God, that is our conditional stage. Conditional stage means we accept a body, material body, which is conditioned in so many ways. Just like the body undergoes six kinds of changes. It is born, the body is born, not the living entity. It is born at a certain date, it remains for some time, it grows, it gives some by-products, then the body dwindles and at last it vanishes. The six kind of changes. Not only these six kind of changes, but also there are many tribulations. They are called threefold miseries: pertaining to the body, pertaining to the mind, miseries offered by other living entities, miseries happening by natural disturbances. And after all, the whole thing is summarized into four principles, namely birth, death, old age and disease. These are our conditional life.

So, in order to get out of these conditions of life, if we revive our bhāgavata consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, whatever you like… When we speak of "Kṛṣṇa," means the Supreme Lord. God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or our original consciousness. Just like, every one of us, we remember always that "I am the son of such-and-such gentleman. Such-and-such gentleman is my father." It is natural to remember one's father and his relationship with father. And, in ordinary business also, the etiquette is if one presents his identification, he has to give his father's name. In India it is very essential, and the father's name or the title is the last name of everyone. So when we forget the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, and we want to live independently… Independently means if we want to enjoy life according to my whims. That is called so-called independence. But by such independence, we are never happy, so we transmigrate for this so-called illusory happiness from one body to another. Because a particular body has got a particular facility of happiness. Just like every one of us, we want to fly in the sky. But because we are human beings, we have no wings, we cannot fly. But the birds, although they are animals, lower animals, they can easily fly. In this way, if you make analytical study, every particular body has got a particular type of facility, while others haven't got. But we want all facilities of life. That is our inclination. Just like modern scientists, they're trying to go to other planets but they're conditioned, they cannot go. We can see. There are millions and trillions of planets before us-the sun planet, the moon planet, the Venus, the Mars. Sometimes we wish, "How I could go there." But because I am conditioned, I'm not independent, I cannot go. But originally, because you are spirit soul, originally you were free to move any way. Just like Nārada Muni. Nārada Muni moves everywhere; any planet he likes he can go. Still, there is one planet within this universe which is called Siddhaloka. That Siddhaloka, the inhabitants of Siddhaloka, they can fly from one planet to another without any airplane. Even yogis, yogis, haṭha-yogīs, those who have practiced, they can also go from anywhere to anyplace. The yogis, they sit down in one place and immediately transferred in another place. They take a dip in some river nearby here and they can get up in some river in India. They dip here and they rise there. These are yogic powers.

So we have got immense independence, but we are now conditioned by this body. Therefore in the human form of life it is an opportunity to get back our original independence. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Freedom. When we have got our spiritual body, without being covered by this material body… We have got our spiritual body within this material body. Very small. That is my real identification. Now I'm covered by two kinds of material bodies. One is called subtle body and the other is called gross body. The subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego, false ego, and the gross body is made of earth, water, fire, air and ether mixed together, this body. So two kinds of body we have got. And we are changing. Generally we can see the gross body; we cannot see the subtle body. Just like everyone knows… I know that you have got your mind. I know that you have got intelligence. You know I have got mind, I have got intelligence. But I cannot see your mind, I cannot see your intelligence. I cannot see your determination. I cannot see your thoughts, thinking, feeling and willing. Similarly, you cannot see. You see my gross body made of this earth, water, air, fire, and I can see your gross body. Therefore, when this gross body is changed and you are carried, you go away by the subtle body, that is called death. We say, "Oh, my father has gone away." How do you see that your father has gone away? The body is here lying. But actually his father has gone away by the subtle body. Just like at night, we are sleeping on our nice apartment, but the subtle body takes me away on the top of a mountain. Sometimes we see I have come, in dream, I have come on the top of a mountain, very high, and I am falling down. Although actually, my gross body is sleeping in a nice, comfortable apartment, but the subtle body carries me. We have got daily experience. Similarly, death means this gross body we change. Just like you have got your shirt and coat. So you change the coat, but you keep your shirt. You do it, generally. Similarly, I keep my subtle body and I give up my gross body; that is called death. And I am carried by the subtle body in the womb of another mother by the laws of nature, and I develop another gross body, materials supplied by the mother. And when the body is prepared, I come out of the womb of mother and I work again with that subtle and gross body. And bhāgavata-dharma means that we have to transcend both the gross and subtle body; come to the spiritual body. It is very scientific. And as soon as we come to the spiritual body, mukta saṅga, being freed from the gross and subtle body, we come to our real body, spiritual body, then actually we feel happiness and independence.

So this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest benediction for the human society because it is trying to bring the human being to the platform of spiritual body-transcending the gross and subtle material body. That is the highest perfection. Human life is meant for coming to that platform, the spiritual platform, transcending the gross and material bodily concept of life. That is possible. It is made easy in this age. This age called Kali, it is not very good time. Simply disagreement, fighting, quarreling, misunderstanding. This age is full of that, all these happenings. Therefore to come to the spiritual platform is very difficult in this age. Formerly, it was not so difficult. People were very easily trained up by the Vedic process. But now the people are not interested. They're simply interested with the gross body or, a little more, who is a little advanced, the subtle body. But they have no information of the spiritual body. Although there is advancement of education, there is no education about the spiritual body. They're simply concerned with the gross material and subtle body. Therefore this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is very important movement. Those who have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they're very, very fortunate.

So I shall further explain one song sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura was one of our predecessor ācāryas, teacher, and his songs are accepted in our Vaiṣṇava society as Vedic truth. He has written in simple language, but it contains the Vedic truth. So he has got many songs. One of the songs is hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. He says, "My dear Lord, I am simply wasting the valuable time of my life." Biphale janama goṅāinu. Everyone takes birth as human being, but he does not know how to utilize it. He utilizes it just like animal. The animal eats; we simply make arrangement of eating unnaturally. That is our advancement. In the animal kingdom, every particular animal has got a particular type of food. Just like tiger. A tiger eats flesh and blood, but if you give tiger nice oranges or grapes, he'll not touch it, because that is not his food. Similarly, a hog. A hog eats stool. If you give the hog nice halavā, it will not touch. You see? So every particular animal has got a particular type of food. Similarly, we human beings, we have got our particular type of food also. What is that? Fruits, milk, grains. Just like our teeth is made-you take a fruit, you can easily cut into pieces by this tooth. But if you take a piece of flesh, it will be difficult to cut with these teeth. But a tiger has got particular type of teeth, he can immediately cut into pieces the flesh. So we are advancing in education, but we do not study even of our teeth. We simply go to the dentist. That's all. This is our advancement of civilization. The tiger never goes to dentist. Although its teeth are so strong that immediately he can into pieces, but he doesn't require a dentist, because he doesn't eat anything which is unnatural for him. But we eat anything damn; therefore we require the help of dentist.

So our human being has got a particular type of business. That business is to study or to discuss on the bhāgavata life. That is our natural. Bhāgavata-dharma. We should try to understand Bhagavān. Bhāgavata-dharma, I have already explained. Bhagavān and the bhakta or bhāgavata, their relationship, that is called bhāgavata-dharma. So it is very easy. How? Now simply you have to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavān, and we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like suppose we have forgotten our home. I left my home since a long time, I've forgotten my father. So if somebody reminds me, "Do you know such gentleman? He is your father. You were playing in such a way, his father was helping you," in this way, if you simply talk of his father, he remembers his home: "Oh, yes." Similarly, we have forgotten our father, our relationship with father. If we simply hear about Him, then we remember. A simple process.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ 'stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt-satām

[SB 1.2.17]

Simply we have to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa or forgotten our supreme father on account of material contamination. So if we hear about Kṛṣṇa attentively, just like you are doing now, kindly, it is very good opportunity. I thank you very much. You are all young boys and girls, but you are very fortunate. Your fathers, grandfathers, do not come here. But you have come. So because you are fortunate. So similarly, continue this. Just try to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Your life will be successful. You haven't got to do anything. It doesn't require that you have to become a master of degree examination, M.A., Ph.D. or D.S.C. No. God has given you these two ears, and if you kindly submissively hear from the realized souls, then your life will be successful. Actually, that is happening. All these boys and girls who have come to me in different parts of the world, simply by hearing… I have not bribed them, I have no money. So they are sacrificing their everything for me. Why? Simply by hearing me. That's all. So the hearing is so strong. And they are educated boys, they're university graduates. I'm not befooling them. But as they're hearing, they're understanding the gravity of the movement and gradually they're becoming convinced and firmly situated in the post. So this is called bhāgavata-dharma.

So we are giving opportunity to everyone to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Of course, in your country it is new. But in our country, in India, still although India is fallen in so many ways, still, if there is some bhāgavata discourses, throngs of people, crowds will come there. We are holding bhāgavata discourses in Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, Madras, Jaipur, big, big cities. So in Calcutta and Bombay we saw thirty thousand people were daily attending, continually, for ten days. Similarly in Bombay. So although there is propaganda in India to forget Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but how they can forget? They're born in a land where Kṛṣṇa appeared. They cannot forget. They have been given the opportunity, took birth in India. That is also due to pious activities. But unfortunately they are being forced to be dragged. I do not wish to discuss this point. But Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. It is not that Kṛṣṇa is for Indians or for the Hindus or for… No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. So within your country, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is started since 1966 from New York, and gradually we are having more and more students and branches. So kindly continue this habit. Simply hear about Kṛṣṇa; then Kṛṣṇa will help you. He is within your heart. He'll help you in every way.

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

[Bg. 10.10]

Kṛṣṇa says, "If anyone is very serious and sincere, and constantly engaged in My devotional service," satata… Satata means constantly. Satata-yuktānām. Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam: "Engaged in devotional service with love and faith." For them, Kṛṣṇa says, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam: "I give him intelligence." Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone. Kṛṣṇa is within your heart-in my heart, your heart, everyone's heart. So He gives you intelligence. What kind of intelligence? The intelligence by using which one can come or go back to home, back to Godhead. That intelligence. So these bhāgavata-dharma discourses mean constantly calling, "My dear sir, please get up, please get up." Jīva jago jīva jago gauracandra bole. This is the message of Lord Caitanya. He says, "My dear jīva, living being, kindly get up. This is the opportunity."

So I was explaining Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song. Let me finish it. He says:

hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā

jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu

He says, "My dear Lord, I got this valuable human form of life, but I have wasted it for nothing. Because this life is meant for understanding Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. But I did not do so; therefore I have taken poison with knowledge." Just like sometimes (to) make suicide, he takes poison. He knows that as soon as he'll take the poison he'll die. Similarly, one who is not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means he's taking poison. This is the opportunity of becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if you don't take this opportunity, that means knowingly I am drinking poison. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. So what is the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. This hari-nāma saṅkīrtana. Just like we receive vibration from the radio from different countries. Similarly, this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, this vibration we are receiving from the spiritual world. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana rati nā janmilo kene tāya. "I could not get my attachment to this transcendental vibration." Viṣayā-viṣānale divā-niśi hiyā jvale taribāre nā khāinu upāya. "I am suffering constantly with the poison of this materialistic way of life, and I did not try to get out of it by taking shelter of this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra." Then he says that vrajendra-nandana yei śacī-suta haila sei. "In this age, the same Supreme Personality of Godhead who appeared five thousand years ago as the son of Nanda Mahārāja, vrajendra-nandana…" Nanda Mahārāja was the king of Vraja, vrajendra, and his nandana, his son, that means Kṛṣṇa. Vrajendra-nandana yei śacī-suta haila sei. "That Kṛṣṇa has appeared in this age as the son of mother Śacī." Lord Caitanya's mother's name was Śacī-devī. Balarāma haila nitāi. "Balarāma, the same Balarāma who appeared as Kṛṣṇa's elder brother, he has appeared as Nityānanda, Gaura-Nitāi." So what is Their business? Pāpī-tāpī yāta chila harināme uddhārila. Their business is… There are two kinds of people within this material world. Another one is committing sin and the other is suffering the sinful reaction. Pāpī-tāpī. That is our business. In this life, I am suffering the resultant action of my past impious activities, and I'm creating another set of impious activities so that I shall suffer next life. This is our position. Pāpī-tāpī yāta chila. Therefore there are two kinds of activities. Pāpī-tāpī yāta chila, harināme uddhārila. But all these people can be delivered simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (end)

720930LE.LB

Lecture

Laguna Beach, September 30, 1972

Prabhupāda: This is Deity room?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where is karatāla? It is very hot. [break]

Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here to participate in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are calling everyone to go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just now we described the place where we intend to go. That is Goloka Vṛndāvana. There the Supreme Personality of Godhead is residing with His consort Rādhārāṇī. Rādhā-Mādhava. Kṛṣṇa is the husband-not exactly husband, but friend. The same mellow. As you try to enjoy here, boy and girlfriend, not married, but an extra ecstasy without being married, conjugal love, the ideal conjugal love is there, Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā. Here the same thing is present, but in a perverted sense. The origin is there. Jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī. Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, They are always engaged in loving affairs in the kuñja, in the bushes of Vṛndāvana. Jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī, gopījana-vallabha. He is very dear to the gopīs and the gopas. Gopas means the cowherd men and the cowherd boys. So Vṛndāvana is village life. It is not a town like Los Angeles. It is village. It is village, and they are always taking pleasure on the bank of Yamunā. Yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī. And there are very nice gardens on the bank of the Yamunā. And whenever there is some danger… Of course, in the original Vṛndāvana there is no question of danger. It is blissful, transcendental abode. But when Kṛṣṇa comes down to show us the replica of the original Vṛndāvana… That Vṛndāvana is there on this planet in India, about ninety miles from New Delhi. It is exactly the same Vṛndāvana, but because it is on this material world, it appears that there is sometimes danger. So when Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth, on this planet, so there was some danger. Actually there was no danger because Kṛṣṇa was present. But it appeared like that. So there was torrents of rain for seven days. The Indra, the demigod who is in charge of the watering department of this universe, he… (someone laughs) Don't laugh. It is very serious. So he became very angry. Kṛṣṇa stopped demigod worship, Indra worship, so he became very angry. So there was torrents of rain for seven days continually, and Kṛṣṇa took up a hill which is called Govardhana Hill-if sometimes you come to Vṛndāvana, you will see the Govardhana is there-as the umbrella on the, what is called finger, ring finger? No. Small finger. So jaya rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī, gopījana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī. Immediately lifted the big mountain as umbrella like this. So when Kṛṣṇa was present, although He was playing like an ordinary human child or human being, still, when there was need, He manifested His godly power. That is God. When it was needed to protect the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, He lifted a big hill, and since then His name is Giri-vara-dhārī. Giri-vara-dhārī means that hill, and He sustained that hill. He was at that time seven years old from material calculation.

But in the original Vṛndāvana there is no such thing as the wrath of Indra, the king of heaven, and danger or torrents of rain overflood, inundation. There is no such thing. There everything is blissful, transcendental and eternal. Here we have got a little sample, because whatever you have got in this material world, that is simply imitation, a shadow of the original. Sometimes… You can understand that on the desert sometimes it appears there is a vast ocean of water, mirage. But actually there is no water. Those who are animals, they sometimes are misled. They are thirsty, and they think that there is water in the desert, and they run over, but actually there is no water. The animal runs, and the water also advances. In this way, when he becomes too much fatigued, he dies. This is the exact example of this material world. We are hankering after water, we are thirsty, and we are being misled by so-called water, mirage, Just like while I was coming here, both sides, the manifestation of material civilization, electrical wire pumping station of oil, big, big motorcars light, motel, hotel and so many things… So we are thinking that these things will give us relief; our thirst will be quenched, our hankering for water will be satisfied. But it has failed. In your country especially-not in your country, in all countries-so many young flowers of your country, they are frustrated. That's a fact. (aside:) What is that sound? They are frustrated. That is a fact. You know; I know. So this kind of mirage, showing of water-actually there is no water-a shadow of water will not help us. That is a fact. But because there is shadow of water, we can understand that there is real water. It is not that the shadow of water is all in all, finished. There is water. But we have to seek out that water elsewhere, not in the desert. In the desert the shadow of water will not quench your thirst.

So that information we are giving. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that you do not know where that water is to be found, how your great thirst will be satisfied. That you do not know.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni-baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

They do now know what is the ultimate goal of life, our self-interest. Everyone must be self-interested, but we do not know what is self-interest. There is no education what is the ultimate goal of life. Na te viduḥ. They are trying to satisfy themselves to become happy and prosperous by adjusting this material nature. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ means giving more importance to this materialistic way of life. That is called bahir-artha-māninaḥ. God has got many energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. In the Vedas we understand that the Supreme Lord has manifold energies, and whatever we see, that is the activities of His energy. Just like electric energy. The energy is coming out from the powerhouse, and by utilizing that electric energy, we are working in so many ways: heater, cooler, this microphone, tape recorder, so many things. But the energy is coming from that powerhouse. Similarly, whatever you are seeing, wonderful action of the material action and reaction, they are simply interaction of different energies of the Lord, heat and light. Any scientist will understand that this whole cosmic manifestation is creation of heat and light, two energies. The two energies are coming from the sun, and the material world is creation of the sunshine, heat and light. Similarly there are two energies of God, heat and light. So one is called material energy, another is called spiritual energy, although both of them coming from the supreme spirit, exactly like heat and light is coming from the sun. But heat is not light; light is not heat. There is distinction. This is called inconceivable one and difference simultaneously. Acintya-bhedābheda tattva. This is our philosophy. Nothing is different from God, but not that everything is God. Simultaneous one and different. So two energies are working, material and spiritual. The spiritual energy is called superior, and the material energy is called inferior. Just like matter. Material energy means earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, and spiritual energy means spiritual force, the living force. So every one of us, combination of two energies, spiritual energy and material energy. You can understand it. As soon as the spiritual energy is off from the combination of this material energy, it is simply lump of matter. It cannot move. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yayā idaṁ dhāryate jagat. The whole world is moving by the combination of material and spiritual energy, and both of them coming from one source, exactly like that, that both heat and light is coming from the sun. But they are working differently or working combinedly.

So this world, this material world, although it is not different from God, but still, it is not God. So we have to transfer ourself from this material energy to the spiritual energy. That is the business. So long we are in the lower form of life… This human form of life is considered the upper or better form of life, whereas the animals, the trees, the aquatics, the insects, the reptiles… There are so many, 8,400,000 forms of life. Out of that, this human form of life, especially the civilized form of life, this is elevated life of developed consciousness. The consciousness of human form of life is different from the consciousness of aquatic life or tree life or plant life or cat life or dog life. This is the developed consciousness of life. Why this developed consciousness of life is given by God? To understand God. This is the only business. This developed consciousness of life is being misused in the matter of animal life. The modern scientific advancement or philosophical speculation, they are trying to adjust how we can enjoy our sense life better. But after all, it is sense life. Better or inferior, there is no such question. Suppose a glass of water, given in golden glass tumbler or in earthen tumbler. The taste of the water is the same. Similarly, the taste of life is eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. So either in the dog's life or human life, the taste of eating or taste of sex life is the same. The same example. You drink water in different pots, either golden pots or earthen pot-it doesn't matter-but the taste of the water is the same. It is not different. Simply because you put the water in a golden pot, therefore it does not mean that the taste of the water also will change. No. The taste will remain the same.

So we are trying simply to taste the same water in different pots, sometimes in the pot of the body of a dog, sometimes in the pots of the body of a hog and sometimes in the pot, in the body of a human being. So this taste is common for everyone. The human developed consciousness is meant for something else, not for tasting these things-eating, sleeping, sex life and defending. That developed consciousness is meant for understanding what is God. But in the modern civilization that higher developed consciousness is being utilized for changing the pot. Suppose I have come here in Laguna Beach by nice…, on a nice motorcar. So it is a pot only, that's all. I could come here walking or in another vehicle. So there was no difference. It would have taken little more time. But we are thinking, because we have got this motorcar instead of a bullock cart, we are advanced in civilization. That is the mistake. Because either you travel on a bullock cart or in a motorcar, your business is to transport from one place to another, that's all. It may save some time. You may feel some extra pleasure. No pleasure actually. Rather, bullock cart is comfortable because this motorcar, you are always thinking, "There may not be any accident." Yes. Always they are afraid. And there is happening accident. Recently one of our devotee has died. So many people are dying. So this material advancement of life means you create little convenience, and side by side, you create so many inconvenience. That you must. You have created motorcar. That's all right. But side by side, you have created death by motor accident, so many. What is the statistics in your country? How many people are dying?

Devotee: Sixty thousand a year.

Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand a year. So in this way you cannot be happy, because the more you advance in material civilization, the more you become complicated. The real purpose is to go back to home, back to Godhead. We are missing the point. There is no guarantee. We have been given this chance of human form of body by nature's way, by the evolutionary process, coming through, transmigrating through 8,400,000 species of life. We have got this human form of life, developed consciousness to understand God, not increasing the comfort from bullock cart to motorcar. No. Not for this purpose. The so-called scientists, they are thinking that we are advancing in civilization from the primitive form, transport by bullock cart to motorcar. But that is not actually advancement. We are missing the point that this human form of life was meant for realizing God, realizing self. But we are misusing that higher intelligence and consciousness for manufacturing motorcar. And they are very much proud of advancement. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. This is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata in one verse. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. They are captivated by the external energy of God. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni-baddhāḥ. They are led by blind leaders. All these materialistic leaders, the politicians, the scientists, the philosophers, the technologists and so on, businessmen, so on, so on, and all these material-they are all blind and they are leading other blind. So what will be? The result will be catastrophe, because both of them are blind. If one man is with eyes, he can lead another thousands of men, blind men: "Please come. I shall help you crossing the road." But if the leader is also blind and the followers are blind, then what is the result? That is happening. They are thinking that "By bodily comfort, by sense gratification, we shall be happy." But that is not possible. We do not know. Actually we have no knowledge. Dehāntaraṁ-prāptiḥ.

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

You, me-every one of us-is encaged within this body. I am spirit soul; you are spirit soul. That is the Vedic injunction. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman." That means spirit. Not Parabrahman. Don't mistake. Parabrahman is God. We are Brahman, part and parcel of God, fragments, but not the Supreme. Supreme is different. Just like you are American, but the supreme American is your president, Mr. Nixon. But you cannot say that "Because I am American, therefore I am Mr. Nixon." That you cannot say. Similarly, you, me, every one of us, Brahman, but that does not mean we are Parabrahman. Parabrahman is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara means controller. So every one of us is controller to some extent. Somebody is controlling his family, controlling his office, business, controlling his disciples. At last, he is controlling a dog. If he hasn't got to control anything, he keeps a dog to control, a pet dog, a pet cat. So everyone wants to be controller. That's a fact. But the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. Here the so-called controller is controlled by somebody else. I may control my disciples, but I am controlled by somebody else, by my spiritual master. So nobody can say that "I am the absolute controller." No. Here you will find the so-called controller, certainly controller to some extent, but he is controlled also. But when you find somebody that He is controller only, not controlled by anyone, that is Kṛṣṇa. To understand Kṛṣṇa is not very difficult. Try to understand that everyone is controlling, every one of us, but at the same time being controlled by somebody else. But we find a gentleman whose name is Kṛṣṇa. He is controlling everyone, but He is not controlled by anyone. That is God.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific, authorized and understandable by reasonable man. So if you kindly take interest in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you'll be benefited. Your life will be successful. Your aim of life will be achieved. That is a fact. So you can try to read our literatures. We have got many books. You can come and see practically how our students are doing, advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You can try to learn from them by association. Just like if one wants to become a mechanical man, he enters into a factory and associates with the worker, mechanics, and gradually he also becomes a mechanic, a technologist. Similarly, we are opening these centers just to give opportunity to everyone to learn how to go home, how to go home, back…, how to go home, back to Godhead. That is our mission. And it is very scientific and authorized, Vedic. We are receiving this knowledge direct from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is Bhagavad-gītā. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without nonsensically comments. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. We are placing the same proposal, that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. We are not changing it. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Become My devotee. Always think of Me. Worship Me. Offer your obeisances unto Me." We are teaching all people that "You think of Kṛṣṇa always-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare." By chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you will always think of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto [Bg. 18.65]. So our method is very simple. We don't manufacture any new method. Why new method? The old method is very perfect, authorized, accepted by great ācāryas. And they are, actually, are benefited. So why we shall manufacture? What is my brain? I am a teeny. We haven't got to manufacture, neither we can manufacture anything perfect, because I am imperfect. We can simply catch up the perfect things. Then we become perfect. That is our process. So Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect, His teachings are there in the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We are taking, accepting that. And we are preaching the same philosophy throughout the world, and they are accepting it, and I wish all of you who are present here will kindly accept this philosophy and make your life successful.

Thank you very much. (end)

721129LE.HYD

Rotary Club Lecture

Hyderabad, November 29, 1972

Prabhupāda: Rotarians and Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly inviting me in this important meeting of very respectable gentlemen of the city. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas

tat tad eva itare janaḥ

sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute

lokas tad anuvartate

[Bg. 3.21]

Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ. There are leading men in every society-in government post and educational institution, in business, and so many other fields. In every field of activity, there are leading men. That is natural. And in the Vedas we understand the supreme leading person is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Leaders must be accepted. Just like father is necessary, similarly, leader is also necessary. Guru is also necessary. So according to Vedic verse, Vedic version, we can understand that the supreme leader is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, God, a person. The conception of Absolute Truth, as given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: [SB 1.2.11] "The Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision-as the impersonal Brahman, the localized Paramātmā and the Supreme Personality of Godhead." The, this Bhagavān, this word, is used at the end in the matter of describing the nature of Absolute Truth.

So those who are trying to understand the Absolute Truth by philosophical speculation, they can reach up to the impersonal Brahman effulgence of the Absolute Truth. Similarly, those who are trying to find out the Absolute Truth within the heart… Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. They are generally called yogis. And the philosophical speculators, they are called jñānīs. So jñānī, yogi. So the jñānīs, they reach up to the impersonal Brahman effulgence, and the yogis, they reach up to the localized aspect of the Supreme Person. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvara, the Supreme Person, is within your heart, everyone's heart. Sarva-bhūtānām. Not only human beings, but also animals, trees, insects, aquatics. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. So in each and every living entity, within the heart, there is representation of God, who is known as Paramātmā. So brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. At last, Bhagavān. Bhaga. Bhaga means opulence, and van means possessing. So the possessor of the opulences in full is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is described in Vedic literature as Kṛṣṇa, "all-attractive." Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. There is a list of different incarnations of God. Even Lord Buddha's name is there. So the con…, in the conclusive portion it is said, ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. All these descriptions of the incarnations, they are plenary portion or portion of the portion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the name we find here as Kṛṣṇa, He is the Supreme. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Svayam. He is the original Personality of Godhead. Similarly, we get information from other Vedic literatures. Just like Brahma-saṁhitā. It is written by Lord Brahmā. And when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu was present on this planet, He collected the copy of this book from South India, Ādi-Keśava Mandira, and presented it to His devotees, that "This is authorized book." There were hundred chapters of this book. Unfortunately, they're missing. This is only the Fifth Chapter. But it contains the essence of theology.

So in that book, Brahma-saṁhitā, the beginning is:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

The Supreme Person, or Īśvara… The word īśvara means controller. So everyone is controller. All of you are present here, to some extent, every one of us is a controller to a limited extent. But here it is mentioned, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Parama means ultimate. We are controller, every one of us, but we are controlled also. That is our position. Nobody can say… All the gentlemen, ladies present here, nobody can say that "I am controller absolute." That is not possible. Everyone is relative controller. But if you try to find out who is the absolute controller, then He's Kṛṣṇa. This has been analyzed by great scholars in the Vedic śāstras, by the Gosvāmīs, and this is the statement of Lord Brahmā, who's supposed to be the first creature within this universe. So he says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]: "Īśvara, the supreme ultimate controller, is Kṛṣṇa. And He's vigraha." Vigraha means person, with body. Just like we have got body, similarly, the Absolute Supreme Person has also body. But His body is different from ours. Sac-cit-ānanda-vigraha. His body is eternal. Our body, this material body, is not eternal. Sat cit. His body is full of knowledge. Our, this body, is full of ignorance. And ānanda. He's full of joyfulness. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The Supreme Person is always joyful, abhyāsāt, naturally. So our, this body is not ānandamaya; it is, rather, always miserable. Therefore we must distinct the body of the Supreme Person from our body.

When sometimes in the Vedic literature it is explained as God has no form, that does not mean He has no form. He has a form which is different from this form. Nirākāra. Nirākāra means not this ākāra. We can distinguish. Because in the śāstra it is said that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1], "eternal, blissful and fully cognizant." He knows everything. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I know everything, past, present and future." That is knowledge. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is also stated, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Abhijñaḥ: He knows everything. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said also: kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Kṣetrajñaḥ. Kṣetrajña means the proprietor of the body, the owner of the body. Just like you are a spirit soul, owner of your body. I am also a spirit soul. I am owner of the body. I know to some extent the pains and pleasure of my body. You know, to some extent, the… I say "to some extent" because we are not… Although I am the proprietor of this body, still… I do not know how the body is acting, functioning, why there is pain, why there is pleasure. So many things, we do not know-partially we know-although I am the proprietor. If there is some defect in the bodily function, I cannot detect it. I go to another person, a physician. So although I am proprietor of this body, I do not know exactly what is functioning, how it is becoming in happy condition or in morose condition. So… But supposing that I know everything, but still, I do not know what is happening in your body. That is not possible. Therefore it is concluded that we are individuals. We are individuals. I have got my individual pains and pleasures; you have got your individual pains and pleasures. So you are individual person; I am individual person. And the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is also individual person. Nityo nityānām. This is Vedic information. We are plural number, nityānām. Cetanaś cetanānām. He's the supreme living force amongst all other living forces.

So therefore… In the Bhagavad-gītā also, it is said that, when Kṛṣṇa was advising Arjuna in the Battlefield, He said, "My dear Arjuna, all these persons, you and Me, and all these persons, it is not that we did not exist in the past. Neither it is so that we shall not exist in the future." This is… So these three things are pointed out: "You, Me and all these soldiers and kings." So all of them are individual. All of them are individual persons. And Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person, He's also individual person. But what is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself? That Kṛṣṇa, as it is stated in the Vedas, eka, that one singular number person. Vidadhāti kāmān. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's supplying the necessities of life to all these plural number living entities. So therefore He's the supreme controller.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

And He's the cause of all causes. Just like I am born; the cause is my father. And the cause of my father-his father, my grandfather. And go on searching-his father, his father, his father-and then you'll have to reach the original person, Brahmā. Then if you find, or try to find out who is the cause of Brahmā, then you'll find that this cause is the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And what is the cause of Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu? Then you'll find Kāraṇa, Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, the cause is Saṅkarṣaṇa. In this way, you will find, ultimately, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cause of all causes. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

"I am the cause of all causes."

The Vedānta-sūtra says, "Who is the Absolute Truth?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta-sūtra means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. That is the duty of the human form of life. It is a very big subject matter. So this human birth, form of life, we have got after so many evolutions: aquatics, then trees, then plants, then insects, then birds, then beasts. Then we come to the platform of this human being, especially civilized human being. And especially born in India. For this reason, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that Indian people have got a special mission. He said, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. Anyone who is fortunate enough to get his birth in Bhārata-varṣa, janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra. Paropakāra. Indian, Indians are meant for doing welfare activities to others. Because in India you have got the culture which is actually human culture. Human culture means to understand God, to understand Kṛṣṇa; that is human culture. Otherwise, if you simply improve the four principles of animal life, that is not culture. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etad paśubhiḥ narānām. Eating: animal eats; we also eat. And if we make some improvement in the eating matter, that is not advancement of civilization. Similarly in sleeping matter. A dog lies on the ground; we lie down on very silk bed and very nice apartment. But we are thinking this is advancement of civilization. No. This is not advancement of civilization. The advancement of civilization is that "Why I am put under the material laws?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu-darśanam [Bg. 13.9]. One must be complicated… Everyone is trying to live. Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to take birth. He's afraid of dying and again entering into the womb of mother. But less intelligent class of men, because they cannot make any solution, they make a wash-off: "Oh, there is no life after death." No. That's not fact. That's not fact. There is life.

In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Tathā dehāntaraṁ-prāptir. Just like we have got different types of body in this life. I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, I…, I was a something else. Now I have got this old body. So as I am existing after changing so many different phases of body, therefore the conclusion should be that after annihilation of this body, I shall exist, and, which is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. After destruction of this body, actually we are not going to die. Our subtle body-the mind, intelligence and ego-that is, that is working. As it, the subtle body, works during my sleeping position, similarly, this body may be, gross body may be annihilated, but my subtle body carries me to another gross body as I desire. Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, is very kind. As we desire, He gives us opportunity. Any kind of body, any kind of enjoyment we want, He gives us the opportunity: "All right, you take this body. And you wanted to enjoy like this. All right, you enjoy." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. He is sitting in everyone's heart as the Supersoul, and even if we forget, He reminds: "My dear living entity, you wanted to do this; now you do it." So this is the process going on. But unfortunately, there is no educational system throughout the whole world about the activities of the soul, how he is working in different evolutionary process, what is his ultimate goal of life, wherefrom he's coming, where he's gone, what is the relation. So many things, we have to know. But we are placed in ignorance on account of blind leaders. We do not know the problems of life. We are blind, and we are led by other blind leaders into still blindness. Viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām.

matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā

mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām

adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ

punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām

[SB 7.5.30]

Adānta-gobhiḥ. Our senses are uncontrolled, so our senses are dragging to the darkest region of existence. We do not know that. But we are simply chewing the chewed. We do not try to solve the problem of life; we are simply chewing the chewed. The so-called sociology, politics, or humanitarian work, it is simply chewing the… Just like we are trying to open hospitals. We think it is very great task. But we can… We do not think that how to get out of the diseased condition of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9].

So there are so many things, problems of our life; we are neglecting. And everything is very clearly described in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is being, explained by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. We should take advantage of these lessons in the Bhagavad-gītā. Unfortunately, in the foreign countries, before me, many other swamis went, tried to explain Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is very well known book of knowledge. In America and Europe and other countries there are many translations. But the Bhagavad-gītā, such translation is taken as a mental speculation. They do not take it seriously that this, "This is the statement by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and it cannot be commented with my poor knowledge. What I am in comparison to Kṛṣṇa? He is tri-kāla-jña. He knows present, past, future, everything. What do I know? So my interpretation…" Just like "Kurukṣetra means this body," or "The five Pāṇḍavas means the five senses." If we interpret in that way, Bhagavad-gītā, according to our whims, we'll never understand what is the purport of Bhagavad-gītā. We have to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is; otherwise, we'll miss the opportunity. Just like Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is still there, existing. Everyone, you know. While passing through Delhi to Punjab side you find the Kurukṣetra. The, the field is also there. It is a very big field, and in the śāstra, in the Vedas, it is said, kurukṣetre dharmam ācaret. So people go as a place of pilgrimage. So you cannot interpret Kurukṣetra otherwise. Kurukṣetra should be accepted as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Our request is-you are all respectable gentlemen, ladies, present here-that kindly try to read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then you will understand the problems of your life, the solution also there. The solution is there, and the ultimate end of Bhagavad-gītā speaking: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the ultimate solution, that we have to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our… Because every one of us, in this material condition, we are trying to become master, ultimately to become God. That is māyā. That is illusion. We cannot become master. We are servant by constitution. Every one of us sitting here is a servant to somebody. Nobody can deny it. Either he may be servant of his family or his community or his country or… So many things… If one has no master, then he keeps a dog to become his servant. That is the nature. We are all servants. The, our thinking that "I shall become master," that is māyā.

So our ultimate goal of life is to become in our original purpose, servant of God. That is our perfection of life. That is called mukti. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti means when we give up our artificial way of life. The artificial way of life is that we are trying to become master. That is artificial. We are not master. Constitutionally we are servant. But that servitude is interlinked in the service of the Supreme Lord. Kṛṣṇa says that mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "The, all the living entities, they are My part and parcel." Just like this finger is the part and parcel of your body, similarly, we are also part and parcel of the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many descriptions. It takes a long time. I don't wish to take much of your time. The… Just like our part of the body is this head, the part of the body is the hand, the part of the body is the belly, and the part of the body are the two legs. So the head is considered to be the brahminical portion of the society, and the arm is considered as the kṣatriya portion of the society, and the belly is the vaiśya part of the social body, and the legs are śūdras. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So as you require to keep your body completely fit-you require your head, you require your arms, you require your belly, you… Nobody is lower or higher. Of course, comparatively, when we see that the head is more important than the leg, but you cannot do deal, also without leg. Neither you can do without head. Everything is required in the social body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So this scientific social system, a class, intelligent class of men, should be the head of the society. And the fighting class or the martial class of men, they should be the administrators. And the productive class, merchants and industrialists, they should be the belly of the society. And the laborer class, they should be the legs of the society. This is the idea we get from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

So if we try to follow the already perfect statements in the śāstras, and if we apply in the, our practical life, then the whole human society will be perfect. Otherwise, if we do not follow the instruction which is perfect, already there in the śāstras-we manufacture or concoction-the social order will never be perfect and there will be always a confusion. And that is going on. I have seen. I have traveled all over the world, especially in America. They're the richest country, but there is a confusion now. The younger section, they do not like to live like their father or grandfather. They want a different body, different life. They, they are joining this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement because they are in search of such thing, perfect thing. They are fed up with this materialistic way of life. Therefore… It is not that I am playing something magic; it is the need of the present-day situation, present-day civilization, that people want Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual advancement. So if we can administer the spiritual advancement of life in the proper way, as they are in our Vedic literatures, so we can contribute greatest contribution to the world, and that will glorify India's name. If we simply imitate them, or beg from them, then India's position is always remain as beggar. Because we are already known: "The nation of beggars." Because our ministers go there to ask, "Please give me this. Please give me this. Please give me." Nothing to contribute. Here is a thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can contribute to the whole world. Please help this movement.

Thank you very much. (applause) (end)

721205LE.AHM

Rotary Club Lecture

Ahmedabad, December 5, 1972

Prabhupāda: Rotarians, Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly inviting me this evening to speak something on Sanātana-dharma. Sanātana means eternal, and dharma also means eternal characteristic. Just like every ingredient, element, of this world has got a certain type of characteristic. As I have been introduced, I was manager in a chemical factory. So you know… (aside:) That sound may be stopped… that every chemical has got a certain characteristic-its color, its taste, its granules. In pharmacology and pharmaceutical formulas, each and every chemical is tested according to that characteristic. That characteristic is called dharma in Sanskrit word. Dharma is not a type of faith, as it is explained in English dictionary, "kind of faith." Faith you can change. Today you are Hindu: you can become Christian next day. Or today you are Christian; you can become a Muhammadan next day. So political field also, changing faiths. So dharma does not exactly mean a kind of faith. It is characteristic. Just like sugar is sweet. That is the characteristic of sugar. If sugar becomes pungent, then that is not sugar. That is something else. It may be some other chemical. When you go to purchase chili, you must test it, whether it is very strongly pungent. You do not expect chili should be sweet; then it is not very first quality chili. Similarly, we have got characteristic, we living entities… We are individual living entities. We have got characteristics. That characteristic is service. Our, the all the ladies and gentlemen who are sitting here, if we ask you what is your characteristic, you'll come to the conclusion that "My characteristic is to serve." Somebody is serving in the office. Somebody's serving in the government office. Somebody's serving as minister. Somebody's serving as governor. It is supposed to be that he is master, but actually he's serving. In family also, the head of the family, he's thinking that he's master, but he's servant. He's servant of his wife, of his children, even of his paid servant. Because he has to satisfy everyone. Not only one, but so many members of the family, he has to keep them satisfied; otherwise, they may not be very much happy. So the nature of living entity is to satisfy others. Paraspara. And that business of satisfying others, serving for others' well-being, that must be sanātana, eternal. Our characteristic, service, is eternal, and that should be eternally engagement. Here, in this material existence, I am serving, but my service is not eternal, because I am changing the body or I changing my profession. Sometimes I am serving this party, sometimes I am serving that party.

So the conclusion should be that sanātana-dharma means that the living entity is eternal, he must seek out his eternal service. That is called sanātana-dharma. Sanātana-dharma does not mean that having a great big tuft, and tilaka, or dressing in a certain manner, or… Then everything are changing. That is not sanātana-dharma. Whatever is changeable, that is not sanātana-dharma. Sanātana, try to understand sanātana. Sanātana means eternal, and the living entity, being eternal, he must have some eternal engagement. That is called sanātana-dharma. Here, in the Bhagavad-gītā, the word sanātana has come in many places. In one place, Second Chapter, twenty-fourth verse, it is said,

acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam

akledya aśoṣya eva ca

nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇur

acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ

Nitya, nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇur acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ. There are many other symptoms of the living entity. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā very nicely, positively and negatively. In some of the verses, the definition is being given in negation: "It is not this." Because with our blunt material eyes, we cannot find out where is the soul in this body; therefore Kṛṣṇa is describing the characteristic of the soul in a negative way in several verses. And you know that sometimes it is required, according to logic, that definition by negation: "It is not this." I cannot express for the time being a thing, what it is, but I can distinguish what it is not. So similarly, at the present moment, everyone is under ignorance. He does not know what is the soul. That is the basic principle of missing point of this material civilization. I talked with many big, big professors in Europe. Most of them, they do not know what is the soul. (aside:) That sound cannot be stopped for the time being? When I was in Moscow, I had the opportunity of talking with some professors. One of them was very interested, Professor Kotovsky. So he said, "Swamijī, after death everything is finished." So I was simply surprised that a responsible professor, teaching staff, he's completely in ignorance about the existence of soul. So that is the defect of the modern civilization. One who is not perfect in knowledge, he is as a teacher, he's passing on as a teacher. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Andhāḥ means blind. One blind man, he is trying to help other blind man. So what is the use of such advancement of education? If the teacher himself is blind, then what is the use of taking knowledge from him? That is going on.

So defect of the modern civilization is andhā yathāndair upanīyamānāḥ. Very few men know what is the ultimate goal of life, what is soul, what is God, what is our relationship with God, how we have to lead our life, to achieve the ultimate goal of life. These things are very missing. We are trying to follow the same principles of animals. Animals, they are concerned with eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defending. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhiḥ narānām. So they have got these propensities, animals, and we have got the same propensities. Sāmānyam. We are similar to the animals in the matters of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But what… Then where is the distinction…? Just like animal eating on the floor. We are eating on the chair and table our nicely prepared foodstuff. But you are eating. So at the present moment, we are thinking that because we are eating on tables and chairs, we advance. That is our mistake. That is no advance. Eating… The benefit of eating, whatever you eat or the animal eats, it is the same. Eating means to maintain the body and soul together. So by advancing in the modes of eating, that does not mean advancement of civilization. Advancement in the modes of sleeping, that does not mean advancement of civilization. Similarly, advancement in the modes of sexual intercourse, it does not mean the advancement of civilization. Or advancement in defending, discovering atomic bombs for killing my enemy, that is also not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization means how much you have advanced to know the soul and the ultimate goal of the soul, how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

The… We living entities… We are all souls, living entities; similarly, God is also a living entity. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He's the supreme living entity. Just like we have got leader-in every society, in every country. Just like in our country we have got the president, the chief Indian. Or in America, Mr. Nixon, the chief Indian, uh, chief American. Similarly, there must be one chief, leader of the whole creation, and that is Kṛṣṇa. There must be. By logical conclusion, there must be a leader. That is… That indication we get from Bhagavad, yes, Vedas, Kaṭhopaniṣad: nityo nityānām. Who is God? God means the chief of all living entities. It is not very difficult to understand. Just like in order to manage the whole government, we require a chief man. In order to manage a big establishment, we require a chief man. So why not this cosmic manifestation, the whole cosmic, cosmology. Why not a chief person? That we do not know. Still, we are passing on as advancement of education. That we do not know, who is the chief. But we can understand from Bhagavad-gītā:

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

[Bg. 9.10]

We are… Big, big scientists, philosophers, we are trying to understand the activities of the material nature. We cannot go beyond that. That is also very imperfect. Our understanding of this material nature, how it is working, how things are happening in a systematic way, how the sun is rising exactly in due course, due time, how it is setting-there are so many things we do not know. Just like we are trying to go the moon planet, but why we are becoming failure, at least, up to date? They say that there is no living entity in the moon planet, but here we find in the Bhagavad-gītā, nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ. The living entity is everywhere. At least, we find on this planet, even in deserted place, there are a certain type of vegetable. That is living entity. Sometimes some microbes. Sometimes insect. So the statement of Bhagavad-gītā is sarva-gataḥ: "Living entities everywhere." We practically see in our experience. We find living entities, the aquatics, in the water. We find living entities within the earth. There are so many insects. We find living entities in the air. We find living entities on the land, in the sky, and so many places. So this is confirmed: sarva-gataḥ. Nityaḥ. The living entity is eternal and he is everywhere. Sarva-gataḥ. Sthāṇur acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ. Sanātanaḥ. Concluding sanātanaḥ.

So the sanātana-dharma means that to find out the eternal engagement of the living entity. At the present moment, the living entity is changing the position. As we change our position even during this life-sometimes I am working in this office, sometimes working in that office, sometimes in this way, sometimes that way-similarly, we are changing eternally. We are creating our desires within the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, and according to the thinking, feeling and willing, we are getting a certain type of body, one after another. This is the process. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir [Bg. 2.13]. Just like in this span of life, I was a child. Everyone was. Everyone remembers. Then I became a boy. I was playing. I can remember what I was doing in my childhood, boyhood. Then I became a young man. That also I remember. But those things have passed as dream. Now I am a different condition of life as old man. But I, the spirit soul, I remember that I was a child, I was a baby, I was a boy, I was a young man. Now I am old man. So the conclusion should be that although I have changed my bodies, I remember all these things. So the body and the remembering capacity, mean the subtle body, thinking, feeling and willing… That is called subtle body. We are now encaged in two types of body. Just like you are encaged with shirt and coat, similarly, I or you, living entity, is encaged in two types of body. The subtle body is mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is made of five elements: fire, earth, water, air, fire, and ether. These are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So actually my position is that I can go everywhere. Just like we are trying. Because I have got the desire to go the moon planet, to the Venus planet, or any other planet, and they are trying with our, scientific knowledge. But because it is gross material, we are not yet successful. But the point is that I have got the desire to go this planet, to that planet. Just like we make tour, even on this planet. We want to go this place, that place, that place. So this is natural. Therefore here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sarva-gataḥ. You can go anywhere, everywhere. There are innumerable universes, and there are innumerable planets of different nature. And you can go. Sarva-gataḥ, sthāṇur acalo 'yam. So according to the different features, we get… Just like the aquatics. They have got a different type of body. They can very easily and very pleasingly, they can live within the water. But if you are pushed within the water, you'll die. You'll suffocate. So by nature's way, there are different types of body. They are going to the moon planet, but to live in the moon planet, you require a different type of body. That we get information from Vedic literature. In Bhagavad-gītā also, we get,

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

If you want to go to the planets of the demigods… The moon planet is also one of the planets of the demigods, according to the Vedic knowledge. So we get information from Bhāgavata, anyone who is promoted in the moon planet, he gets duration of life for ten thousands of years. Similarly, if you become, if you be able to go to the highest planet of this universe, which is called Brahmaloka, then you get your duration of life… That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Sahasra-yuga means… One yuga, combination of this yuga, Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara and Kali, it, forty-three hundred thousands of years. And multiply it by one thousand-that is the duration of one day in the Brahmaloka.

So in different planets you have got different standard of living, you have different standard of duration of life. Just like there is so many distinctions even on this planet. Our standard of living and the standard of living of Europeans and Americans are different. Practically, a common man, when he goes to the Western country, from the materialistic point of view, one sees, "Oh, this is heaven. So many nice motorcars, so many nice roads, so many nice skyscraper building, standard of living so nice, earning money, facility, material happiness." So it may be taken as heaven, although it is a, the same planet. So we can very easily imagine that, from the description of the śāstra, that there are different types of planets and different types of standard of living, different types of knowledge, not different types, advancement of knowledge. In this way, the, you go higher and higher. There are higher planetary systems. This is called Bhūrloka. Above this, there is Bhuvarloka. Above that, there is Svargaloka. Above that, there is Janaloka. Above that, there is Mahar, Maharloka, Satyaloka, and Brahmaloka. Similarly, down, there are different planetary systems. But we living entities, we are traveling according to our desires, according to our plan. God is (in) everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is staying, He's there as Paramātmā. He is so friendly to the living entity. That is, that information we get from Vedic literature, that God and the living entity, both of them are sitting on the same tree. The same tree is this body. So within this body, within the heart, I am sitting there, and God is sitting there also. So God is simply observing what I am doing, what I am desiring, and He's giving me opportunity, "All right, you want to do this? Do it, and take experience." And the living entity is enjoying. It is compared with the tree because the living entity's enjoying the fruit of the tree, and the other living entity, Supreme, Paramātmā, He's simply witnessing. Witnessing, and giving you the result of your fruitive activities. That is called karma.

So these things are very subtle matters, and we have got very, very scientific, authorized information of these matters. But people have become so degraded. They do not want to take any information of the soul, of the transmigration of the soul, of God, our relationship with God, what is the ultimate goal of life, why we are put into this miserable condition of life. Janma… You may say that "I am very happy." I may say, "I am very happy." But actually, there is no happiness. How there can be happy? Janma happiness? Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Actually who is in knowledge, he should know, "Where is happiness? I do not wish to die; I am dying. I do not wish to be diseased; I am diseased. I do not wish to become old; I am becoming old. So where is my happiness?" This is called māyā. There is no happiness, but still, he's thinking that he is in happiness. This is called illusion. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So this is… Just like the animal is in illusion. A hog is eating stool, but he's thinking that "I am enjoying, very nice." He's becoming fat. This is called illusion. You are not happy. Nobody's happy in this material world. Therefore the inquiry should be… That is the Brahma-sūtra. That is the Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma jijñāsā. Athāto brahma-jijñāsā. This human life is for understanding Brahman. What is that Brahman, Absolute Truth? That is required. If you are simply engaged, animal-like, eating, sleeping, mating, then where is the distinction between animal and us? There is no such distinction. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very, very important movement. We are trying to educate people to understand his self, self-realization, God realization, the duty, the aim of life, what is the aim of life. This is not aim of life-simply we forget, we forget, forgetful of our self, and we are thinking…, big, big professors, they are thinking, "Oh, after finishing this body, everything is finished." No, that is not the fact. Therefore it is stated that sanātana. Sanātana means eternal, and God is also eternal. And there is a place also, which is eternal. This place is not eternal. Just like your body is temporary, similarly, the whole material creation which you have got experience… We haven't got full experience. Whatever little experience we have got, that is also temporary. That is not sanātana. This whole material world is not sanātana, eternal. It is temporary. This body is also temporary. So our knowledge about this body and this world-insufficient knowledge. Therefore because we are eternal, we must find out an eternal and we must serve the eternal Supreme. That is called sanātana-dharma. This is sanātana-dharma. So we are teaching that sanātana-dharma.

So I am very pleased to meet you. You are all selected, respectable ladies and gentlemen of this city. So try to understand this movement very seriously and be benefited.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Indian man: …in the same way…

Prabhupāda: Same way, we, because we like this, to enjoy this material world; therefore we have to accept a material body.

Indian man: No, no. But you said that we have to search after that soul and that is a group service you are undertaking. But what's the way to do it?

Prabhupāda: What… That we are teaching. You become our student. You'll learn. (laughter)

Indian man: Teach us what is the actually ultimate object of life…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: …peace or knowledge? Is knowledge sufficient to cause peace, or we must find out some matter first some way? Anyway, without knowledge, whether peace can be had, without knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have got right knowledge, then you have peace. And because you do not have right knowledge, you do not have peace. Peace is dependent on right knowledge. The right knowledge is, as described in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

This is the process of attaining peace, śānti. What is that? To understand that God is the proprietor of everything. But that we do not know. We are thinking, "I am the proprietor of everything." This is not knowledge. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ. He is the supreme proprietor and enjoyer, but mistakenly, we are thinking, every one of us thinking, that "I am the enjoyer." And then other point is: bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. God is the proprietor of places, all planets, all… But we are thinking, "I am, we, Americans, we are proprietor of this portion," "Indians, we are proprietor of this portion." But actually, we are not proprietor. I, I said to Americans several times that "That hundred years ago you were not proprietor of this land. You came, immigrated from Europe. And now, who can say, after two hundred years, who will remain the proprietor? But the land is there." So this temporary proprietorship is also ignorance. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. God is the supreme friend of everyone. He is sitting within the heart. He's trying to advise me, "My dear living entity, you do like this." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: [Bg. 15.15] "I am sitting in everyone's heart." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: "Due to My presence, one can remember, one can forget." Forget also. That is due to the Supersoul. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam. By knowledge-Veda means knowledge-by advancement of knowledge, one should know what is God. That is perfect knowledge. Otherwise, eating, sleeping, mating knowledge is there in the animals. This is not knowledge. You must have perfect knowledge. Then you'll be happy. Then you'll be peace. And if you are misguided, bewildered, mad, then how you can be happy? So this knowledge is obtained, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: after struggling many, many, birth after birth. Bahūnām. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. "One who is actually in knowledge, one who is wise, māṁ prapadyate: he surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When he understands, "Oh, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything." That mahātmā is very rare. So if you get perfect knowledge, if you surrender to God, then you'll be happy. Otherwise, there is no possibility. You go on, struggling.

Indian man: But then, uh, where is that last thing that…

Prabhupāda: You have asked already. Let him.

Indian man (2): Is there any sort of call (?) to contact self?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (2): Is there any subject matter to contact ātmā, or self, what we call?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātmā is there.

Indian man (2): Any matter of contacting him?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore your material method is imperfect to detect where is the soul. The soul is there, and the dimension is also there: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of your hair. So you have no eyes to see. But soul is there; that is evident. But as soon as the soul is gone, this body-is beautiful body-is a dead lump of matter only. That distinction is there. Therefore we have to hear from the authority what is that soul. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is describing… First of all, He said that there is soul within this body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehaṁ dehī, deha. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam… [Bg. 2.13]. Because the soul is there, therefore we are changing different types of body. Just like because you are living, therefore there is coat and shirt. But if you are not living, what is the use of this coat and shirt? There is no question of coat and shirt. Similarly, because the soul is there, therefore the body has developed, according to the desire of the soul. But it is very, very minute. With our, these blunt eyes and blunt senses, we cannot capture. But there is. We have to conceive it from the authoritative statement of higher knowledge, knowledgeable person. Just like we are trying to learn from the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. It is being taught by Kṛṣṇa. So things which are beyond your perception, you have to know it from authority. Just like the example: Who is my father? We cannot make any experiment. We cannot apply experimental knowledge to find out who is my father. That is not possible. But how we can know? The know it, I can know from the authority of the mother. The mother says, "This gentleman is your father," we have to accept. There is no other experimental… Similarly, the soul, which is beyond the perception of your material senses, you cannot make an experiment. You have no means. But you try to perceive that what is that thing, missing, that now the body is dead. Now, there is something. What is that something? That you have to learn from the authority, Kṛṣṇa. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. There is a dehī, there is a proprietor of this body, and he's changing from one body to another. This you have to understand from the authority. From experimental, you have not learned it, never you'll be able to learn it, not the scientists can discover. If they could discover, then no man would die. The medical science, if it could discover… So there are so many anomalies. Therefore you have to learn it only from the authority, and there is no other way. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti-pramāṇa means evidence from the Vedic knowledge. There is no other way.

Indian man: Sir, you said surrender, manasā vācā karmaṇā mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. Now, does it mean that the initiative from the human being is completely surrendered to the almighty God? And if you surrender, is that, is there any initiative left for the human being?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because without we…, our present position is to defy the existence of God. This is our present position in material life. "There is no God. God is dead. I am God. You are God." This is defying the authority of God. Therefore to understand God, you have to surrender; otherwise it is not possible. You cannot defy and at the same time understand God. That is not possible. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. You cannot understand God by challenging. Why God? Suppose we, we go to the president of our country. If I challenge, "Mr. President, what is your value? Can you tell me what you are?" you cannot know him. No. You have to surrender. You have to become friendly and serve him, please him. Then he'll understand. Sevonmukhe hi jivhādau svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ. You cannot challenge. Just like the sun is not visible at night. If you challenge, "O sun, can you show me where you are?" No. You have to wait for his mercy. In the morning, you'll see. This is the process.

Indian man: Sir, my question still remains unanswered. I said when human being surrenders completely, as I said, manasā vācā karmaṇā…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: Now the initiative is completely taken away from the human being.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: How is a human being going to continue in this world if it has to exist, and if the initiative is not left to the human being, as you say that God is there and God has to be accepted? But my father, his father, his great-godfather, everyone say that God exists. I'll be also telling my son, and his son, and his son. This is, this is passing on the very existence of God from mouth to mouth. And now, because there is a word like "God," do we blindly surrender to Him, an identity which human being has not seen…

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man: No one in the world has seen that there is God? And…

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that no one has seen. You have not seen.

Indian man: I have not seen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. (laughter)

Indian man: Yes, but there may be…

Prabhupāda: You cannot say others.

Indian man: …that I take your word, and I…

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, you should withdraw. You have not seen. But you cannot say others have not seen.

Indian man: I have not seen. That's why I…

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have to learn how to see. Then you have to learn how to see. You cannot see; you remain ignorant, fool, and you want to see God. You have to learn how to see God.

Indian man: But then, sir, so we, do we…?

Prabhupāda: First of all, you take this, that you do not know what is God. Now, you want to see God. Therefore you have to learn how to see God.

Indian man: Sir, I, I presumed right from the beginning that some human being surrenders to God…

Prabhupāda: That is the first principle.

Indian man: That is surrender.

Prabhupāda: That is the first principle.

Indian man: How is the initiative left to the human being? I, I…

Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. We are teaching, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's version. Our version is, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore there is no difference between the versions.

Indian man (3): But he says that why should that surrender should be, when we know that we are…, God right within ourselves…?

Prabhupāda: Because you are… Because you are becoming old and you do not want to become old; therefore to save yourself, not to become old, you have to surrender.

Indian man: When we have the right knowledge, we have peace, and we have to maintain. That's all.

Indian woman: Excuse me, what do you or the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement have to say to me that is different from the essence of any of the major religions of the world, say, Christianity?

Prabhupāda: Every religion will say that you surrender unto God, either Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Christianity, or Muhammadan… The word is the same, but we are teaching the same thing, but in a very easiest process. That is our credit.

Indian man: But how long we have to surrender?

Prabhupāda: So long you do not die.

(laughter)

Indian man: We have got the knowledge now…

Prabhupāda: Then you are asking questions.

Indian man: …we have got the knowledge now and…

Prabhupāda: If you have got the knowledge, then why you are asking?

Indian man: (indistinct)

Indian man (4): I think I'm not in the least. I do believe. Many of the physical and chemical phenomenas are being displayed by science these days. Even mere, mere existence of life can be reproduced in a test tube. The cells multiply…

Prabhupāda: What is that? What is that?

Indian man (4): The cells… The mere…

Prabhupāda: So have you produced any life?

Indian man (4): Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Have you produced any life?

Indian man (4): A protein can be made…

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all say…

Indian man (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: …have you produced any life?

Indian man (4): They claim that a protein…

Prabhupāda: They claim. They claim.

Indian man (4): No, my question is…

Prabhupāda: My challenge is you cannot produce life. My challenge, you cannot produce life. That is false. You first of all produce life. Then come to me. (end)

721208LE.AHM

Rotary Club Lecture

Ahmedabad, December 8, 1972

"The Present Need of Human Society"

Prabhupāda: Mr. President, Rotarians, Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly inviting me to speak before you on the subject matter "The Present Need of the Human Society." At the present day… According to our Vedic calculation, this is called Kali-yuga. Kali means disagreement and fighting, kālaḥ. So in this age, a slight disagreement will cause some fighting, some misunderstanding. And practically, this is the age of misguidance; therefore it is called Kali-yuga. So in different Purāṇas, the symptoms of Kali-yuga is described. Śāstra. Śāstra means tri-kāla-jña. Śāstra is not ordinary book. Therefore our Vedic literatures are known as apauruṣeya, "not written by ordinary human being." Ordinary human being, who is called, according to śāstra, conditioned souls, they are conditioned by so many, nature's law. So the imperfectness of the conditioned soul are described as that a conditioned soul is sure to commit mistake; however great he may be, he'll commit mistake. And… "To err is human," they say. And he may be illusioned. Not may be. He's illusioned. Illusioned means accepting something for something else. Just like we accept this body, material body, as self. That is the conception of the general people at the present moment, especially. "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra." Like that. Bodily conception of life. This is illusion. Actually, I am not this body. But because we are lacking knowledge, imperfect, insufficient knowledge, therefore we are accepting this body as self. This is called illusion. And the other imperfection is that we have got a cheating propensity. Cheating propensity means I do not know something definitely, but I present my theories as if I know perfectly. This is cheating. And the last is imperfectness of the senses. All our senses are imperfect. Take, for example, the eyes. We see under certain conditions: when there is light, sunlight or electric light, we can see. We cannot see what is beyond this wall. We cannot see which is very long distantly placed. We cannot see even the nearest, eyelid. Therefore our seeing power is conditioned. Similarly, all other senses.

So we cannot have perfect knowledge by our imperfect senses. But at the present moment, especially in this age, we are accepting so many philosophers, scientists, although we know that their senses are imperfect. This imperfectness is increasing. We are not becoming liberated from imperfectness. But we are increasing due to this Kali-yuga. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Twelfth Canto. It is said there:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ

satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā

kālena balinā rājan

naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ

"With the progress, advancement of this Kali-yuga, these following items…" What is that? Now, dharma. First thing is dharma. People will decrease in the conception of dharma, religion. Religion. Religion does not mean a kind of faith. Religion, as I, I think, the other day I described here, the characteristic, the characteristic of the human being, of the living being-to serve. Actually, we are serving, every one of us. We are serving somebody. So everyone is serving. That is his characteristic. Just like a person now, today, is Hindu. Tomorrow he changes his faith, but the service continues. He cannot change the characteristic of service. You may be Hindu or you may be Mussulman, or you may be Christian-you must be serving somebody. Or maybe… Not maybe; actually-who is superior to you. This is called dharma. According our Vedic principles, the dharma is the principle given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. You cannot manufacture dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, He's giving you dharma, what is dharma. He advents, He appears: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. He says, "When there is discrepancies in the principles of dharma, then I appear, I advent Myself."

So in the Bhagavad-gītā He is giving us the principles of dharma. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He said to Arjuna, "Because you are My very dear friend, I am giving you the most confidential information, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja." This is dharma. Dharma, satyam, truthfulness. That is also reduced, being reduce. Dharma means to become devotee of the Lord. That is practically not reduced. It is practically nil. And people have manufactured so many dharmas, dharma without the principle of God consciousness. So, according to Vedic principle, that is not dharma. Vedic principle says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religion which teaches people how to become devotee of the Supreme Lord. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means transcendental. There are many kinds of dharmas, and according to Vedic system, there are twenty different types of books, viṁśati-prakāśa-dharma, given by different sages. But the conclusion is that that is first-class dharma which is convenient for becoming a devotee of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, the same thing: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. In another place, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is said, dharmaḥ projjita-kaitavo atra. Atra, Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, Bhāgavate, projjhita. Projjhita means prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa ujjhita, very cleansely swept away. That means it is taken away, projjhita. Just like we sweep very nicely, cleansely, our room, similarly all types of cheating religion is wiped out, swept away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2].

So dharma means, the conclusion is, dharma means that our constitutional position is to serve. But our service being misplaced, we are not happy. Actually, we are serving not any person, but we are serving our different types of desires-kāma krodha lobha moha mātsarya-like that. That dharma, when it is reverted, transferred to the service of the Lord, that is called real dharma.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaitukyapratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

That service to the Lord should be without any desire, material desire. Spontaneous. "God is great. He is my supporter, maintainer." We should always remember that. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Actually, God is supporting. Now, at the present moment in India, especially in this part, there is scarcity water. Why? If we are independent of God, we can take advantage of the sea water. There is sufficient water. God also supplies water from the stock of sea water. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. One who cannot understand immediately the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, he can try to understand Him by His different potencies. Just like He says that "I am the taste of the water." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, taste of water. Or the sweetness of water. So there is sufficient supply of water in the oceans and the seas. Then why we are in scarcity of water? Because that taste of the water should be changed by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, you cannot use. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can also change, by distilling the sea water or ocean water, but it will not be as tasteful as it is done by God. Or you can say "nature." The same water, taken from the ocean, transferred, transformed into cloud, the cloud is distributed, and water, rain, falls, you get nice distilled water, tasteful water. So if you are going to challenge, "There is no existence of God," then you can do it. Why don't you do it? Why you are so much in scarcity of water? I do not think any scientist can very boldly answer that "Yes, we can do, and we can defy the existence of God, or the mercy of God." That is not possible. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ [Bg. 7.8]. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the shining of the sun and the moon." Now, there, there are so many great scientists, and expert in chemical composition, making chemical composition. Why not make a small sun on the head of the Ahmedabad City so that you save so much expenditure of electric light? They will say, "Oh, the composition of the sun is like this, that"-so many theories. But why not prepare one? If you know the composition, make it, a sample sun, and see that it is shining.

So they, there are many, so many theories for avoiding God consciousness. But that's not very practical. Therefore in the Kali-yuga, it is said, dharma satyam, the truth is neglected, the dharma is neglected. It is reduced. Another place in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said,

prāyenālpāyuṣaḥ (sabhya)

kalav asmin yuge janāḥ

mandāḥ sumanda-matayo

manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ

[SB 1.1.10]

This is summarized, summarization of the kind of people in this Kali-yuga. What is that? Alpāyuṣaḥ. Their span of life is shortened. Here also it is said, āyuḥ, āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ. Bodily strength, span of life, and memory reduced. Formerly, there was no need of book. Therefore our Vedic literatures are known as śruti. The student will hear from the master, from the teacher, śruti. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. Simply by hearing, they'll remember. That was going on up to the date of Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago. There was no writing principle. There was no need of writing. People were so much powerful in their memory, they could immediately remember everything by hearing once from the teacher. Then Vyāsadeva, when he saw the Kali-yuga is coming, people's memory will be not so sharp, then he wrote all these Vedic literature. He's called Veda-vyāsa. Vedic knowledge was already there by tradition, by hearing, but he chronologically wrote all these Vedas. So there are so many symptoms. I may explain some of them. Kālena balinā rājan naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ: "These things will be reduced: dharma, truthfulness, cleanliness, and forgiveness, and mercifulness." People are not very merciful now. Especially in the Western countries, if one is attacked by another, people will pass. Nobody will care for that. He may be killed. People do not show any mercy. And kṣamā. Kṣamā means forgiveness. That is also being reduced. Memory reduced, merciful reduced, span of life reduced, bodily strength reduced, health is reduced. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga.

So… Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ. Formerly, there were divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The four social divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And they were calculated according to guṇa and karma, quality and work. Brāhma ṇa means he must be truthful, he must be very clean. Satya śaucam. He must be controlling his mind, controlling his senses. Śamo damas titikṣa. He must be tolerant. Titikṣa ārjava. He must be simple. Ārjava, jñānam. He must have full knowledge. Vijñānam, practical application in life. Vijñānam āstikyam. Āstikyam means to accept the Vedic principle as truth. That is called āstikyam. Theism. It is translated as "theism," but it is not. Āstika, āstikya means to have firm faith in the Vedic instruction. That is called āstikyam. But that is a fact. What is stated in the Vedas, they are true. We can save our time. For example, just like the cow dung. The cow dung is said in the Vedas as pure. So if we accept cow dung as pure, we don't require to make research. But actually it is pure. The other day I was passing through a cow shed in Hyderabad. So, so much cow dung stocked there. So I was asking my students, "Suppose so much human stool was stocked here. Could we pass through it?" No, it is not possible. But it was pleasant to pass through. So this is a fact. If we argue that animal stool… (aside:) Stop. Stop him. Don't make noise. …the animal stool is impure, but when the Vedas says the animal stool of the cow is pure, so this is, this true. Similarly conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic instruction, if you touch the bone of an animal, you become impure. But the bone of an animal which is conchshell, it is kept in the Deity room. So Vedic instruction is so perfect. Why this animal bone is pure, why this stool of animal is pure, that is already known. You don't require to make any research. You simply accept and get the fact. This is Vedic truth.

So that is called āstikyam. Āstikyam means to accept the Vedic instruction as it is. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. There is no need of interpreting. If we accept it, the truth, as it is, then we are benefited. In the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "My dear Dhanañjaya, Arjuna,…" Arjuna is called Dhanañjaya. That's a background, how he became a dhanañjaya. So mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior person than Me." So we accept that way. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only we accept-all the authorities, whom we accept as authority. Just like Vyāsadeva. He is the authority of the Vedas. He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nārada accepts the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Of course, that is long, long, ages ago. In the recent years, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, all of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the difficulty for us to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? There is no difficulty. If you do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you must present somebody else, that "Here is another person…" Then we have to compare whether Kṛṣṇa is actually Supreme Personality of Godhead or the another person. Because there is definition of God: aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47).

So the present need of human society, because they're reducing their good qualities, satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjava… [Bg. 18.42]. And money is becoming the most powerful thing. As it is stated here: vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ. Formerly, if one is qualified brāhmaṇa, he may be a poor man, but a brāhmaṇa, when approaches a king, the king will stand up and offer him… Even Kṛṣṇa, when He was King of Dvārakā, Sudāmā Vipra, His friend, he came. Immediately He stood up and gave him His own seat. So because he was a qualified brāhmaṇa… So everywhere qualified brāhmaṇa was respected by the qualified kṣatriyas, vaiśyas. But now, there is practically no qualified brāhmaṇa, neither a qualified brāhmaṇa is respected. Vittam eva. But if one has got money, then he'll be respected. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga. Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ. If one has got money, Sethji, he may be not educated, without any good qualification, but somehow or other he has got money, he'll be respectful, not a qualified brāhmaṇa. Then dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi. Now justice, nyāya… Nyāya means justice, dharma and religious principle. Dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyām, to establish justice, anyone who is powerful, he will get justice. You bribe. Nowadays… Of course, we do not discuss these things. Everyone knows. Justice can be purchased in this age. Balam eva hi. Dāmpatye ratir, ratir abhirucir hetur māyaiva vyāvahārike. These are the symptoms. Dāmpatye, husband and relationship, husband and wife, means sex power. We have practically seen in the Western countries, as soon as there is some disturbance in the sex relation of husband and wife, there is divorce. So that, these are the symptoms. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi. So man and woman should be united in marriage relationship simply on sex urge, not on the religious principle. That we have seen. And sūtram, vipratve sūtram eva hi. And if anyone, somehow or other, gathers a sacred thread-not sacred, even not sacred; thread-he becomes a vipra. Liṅgam eva āśrama-khyātāv anyonya āpatti-kāraṇam, avṛttyā nyāya-daurbhalyam. If you go to the court, court of justice, if you have no money, then you cannot get. Suppose you have to claim from somebody, say, some few thousands of rupees, first of all you have to deposit the stamp fee, five percent, and the pleader's fee. So you have to push good money after bad money. So these are the symptoms. There are many symptoms. In this way, the conclusion is… This is the description given by Śukadeva Gosvāmī to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. There are many other symptoms. Our time is short. The king, the government, that is also stated. Government will be simply taxing. And people, being harassed in famine and taxation, they'll give up their hearth and home, will go to the forest and hills. And gradually, time will come when the ages will be reduced so much that a person twenty to thirty years old will be considered as great, grand old man. These are the symptoms of Kali-yuga.

So how to get out of this entanglement? There are so many things prescribed. But in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that kalau doṣa-nidhe rājan asti hy eko mahān-guṇaḥ. Doṣa-nidhi. Nidhi means ocean. This Kali-yuga is a ocean of doṣa, so many faults. But still, there is some hope.

kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann

asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ

kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

mukte-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet

[SB 12.3.51]

If you take to Kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, kṛṣṇa-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau, if this, you take to this principle, very simple process… That is recommended in the śāstras:

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

[Cc. Ādi 17.21]

Kalau, especially it is meant. Kalau. Kalau means this age of Kali. In another place: kalau saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. So these are the… As the description here is there about the symptoms of Kali-yuga, the remedy is also suggested. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. If you begin chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then you become aloof from all these faulty situation of this Kali-yuga. And if you keep yourself aloof, then mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. Then you'll, next life, you'll be promoted to the kingdom of God. Param means the spiritual world. There is another, spiritual world. This is material world. This material world, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you, perhaps you know, that paras tasmāt tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātana-dhāma [Bg. 8.20]. God is sanātana and we are sanātana. When we combine together, that is called sanātana-dharma.

So kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. So this is the need of the human society. It is very easy, provided we want to take advantage of it. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, as I am teaching all these boys. I am also doing that. We have got our beads for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare… Similarly, if you chant, what is the loss on your part? Is there any loss? But if there is benefit, why don't you take it? What is the harm? We are preaching this. We don't say that "You give us so much money; I give you some mantra, and you, within six months, you become God." We don't make this, all this bluff. We simply say, request, that "God has given you this tongue…" And this is the prescription: kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān-guṇaḥ, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. When you become little advanced, you can also chant and dance, as the Gosvāmīs were accustomed to do. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. They were always… They were ministers. In Delhi, when we had our function, just like we are holding here, many, many good officers, big officers, they chanted and danced. Oh, what is the harm? We dance in the ballroom. Why not for Kṛṣṇa-kīrtana?

So the chanting and dancing is not very difficult thing. So our only request is that you take to this chanting process. If you take to this chanting process, then gradually you'll be elevated to the spiritual life. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Chanting means the cleansing the heart. The more you chant, your heart will be cleansed. We are now, because we are in this material world, we are passing through evolution of many different species of life, and here is a chance given by the nature, the human form of body, where we can stop the continual transmigration of the soul from one body to another and we can have our permanent situation, back to home, back to Godhead. This is a great science. But if you neglect it, that is suicidal policy. Human mind, human life is especially meant for taking advantage of this form of life and understand "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God? How to act? Why I am conditioned by so many miserable conditions of life-birth, death, old age and disease?" So many things are there. But if we do not take to this, if we simply remain like animals, eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, then we are factually missing the opportunity. Therefore our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is simply to make propaganda from door to door, that "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." That's all. As Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bolo saṅge cholo, ei mātra bhikha chāya. We simply want this. So the, there is no loss, but the gain is very great. Why not take the chance? So the present human need of the human society is take to, to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730114LE.BOM

Pandal Lecture

Bombay, January 14, 1973

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Before speaking on the verses already quoted by my disciples, I may be permitted to read a portion of my preface to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Those who are my, our life members, they have got the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, Part One. There he will find this preface. But for general information as to the need of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, I may read a portion of it.

(reads) "We must know the present need of human society. And what is that need? Human society is no longer bounded by geographical limits." Just like we are traveling all over the world, not only once, but twice, thrice in a year. Because there is facility for traveling the airways, so it has become very easy to go from country to country. And practically, while I am in India, all my disciples are coming here from different parts of the world every morning. There are facilities now. Therefore the world is now not limited by geographical condition. Anyone can go anywhere very swiftly. You can go to London from Bombay within nine hours. So the world is not bounded any more by geographical limits to the particular countries or communities. "Human society is broader than in the Middle Age, and the world tendency is towards one state of human society." There is already the United Nations. In New York they have constructed a big organization, establishment, United Nations, but actually, when we pass through that road-I think it is First Avenue-instead of being united, the flags of the nations are increasing. They are becoming disunited. Just like in India our independence movement was started by Mahatma Gandhiji for uniting all the different section of the people. But actually, the result was that instead of being united, India was partitioned. And the partition has become so poisonous that formerly there was only sporadic Hindu-Muslim riots in some place; now there is organized fighting between Pakistan and Hindustan. So although the tendency is to unite, but in fact it is not being united. They are becoming disunited more and more. Not only the Hindus and Muslim. Now in India there are many provincial questions. Just like in Andhra the fight is going on for separation. Punjab is already separated. So actually we are not being united. We are being separated.

So "The ideals of human society is broader than in the Middle Age, and the world tendency is towards one state or one human society. The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of living beings." This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for not only uniting the human society but also all living entities. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ.

vidyā-vinaya sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

When one is actually paṇḍita, learned, he becomes sama-darśī. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne: one learned brāhmaṇa, gentle brāhmaṇa. Vidyā dadāti namratā. Education means one becomes gentle, sober, cool-headed. Therefore it is said, vidya-vinaya-sampanne. When one is learned, advanced in education, he must be very gentle, not haughty. So vidyā-vinaya-sampanne gavi hastini. And one side, the brāhmaṇa with gentle behavior, learned scholarship, and the other side, an animal, say, a cow or a dog or an elephant, and another side the caṇḍāla, the lowest of the human society. According to Vedic civilization, the dog-eaters are called caṇḍāla. Just like in Hindu society, a person is not permitted to eat cow's flesh. Even in human society, although they are eating different types of flesh, one is considered abominable than the other. The cow-eaters are taken as abominable than the goat-eaters. And the dog-eaters are accepted as abominable than the goat-eaters. So although they are eating flesh, they have got some distinction. That is material. But according to Vaiṣṇava philosophy, because a Vaiṣṇava sees every living entity, not only human being, not only animals, birds and beasts, anyone, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ… [Bg. 5.18]. If one is actually learned and advanced, he sees all living entities on the equal status because… The reason is that a learned Vaiṣṇava… Vaiṣṇava, brāhmaṇa-Vaiṣṇava, brāhmaṇa-paṇḍita, these are the designations. A brāhmaṇa cannot be illiterate or rascal. And after becoming brāhmaṇa, one has to become Vaiṣṇava. Brāhmaṇa, generally, brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. One who knows brahma, brahma-bhūtaḥ… At the present moment we are under the bodily concept of life, every one of us. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am sannyāsī," "I am brahmacārī," "I am gṛhastha…" There are so many designations. So these designations are pertaining to the body and mind. But when you transcend the bodily and the mental concept of life, then you can become Vaiṣṇava.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

Mad-bhakti. Vaiṣṇava means bhakta, devotee.

So this Bhagavad-gītā or Śrīmad-bhāgavatam or Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for devotees. Without becoming devotee, one cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The nondevotee… (aside:) Water. The non-devotees accept Kṛṣṇa as ordinary person. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because Kṛṣṇa comes before you as a human being, therefore because one has no sufficient knowledge about Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ, therefore such foolish persons accept Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being or a little greater than ordinary human being. But that is not the fact. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That is the verdict of Vedic instruction. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. There is a list of incarnation of God in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Lord Buddha is also accepted as śaktyāveśa avatāra, especially empowered incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare. Although Buddhism, we do not accept the philosophy of Buddhism, we Vaiṣṇava, we do not accept, but we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra, jaya jagadīśa hare. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. Lord Buddha appeared, being very much compassionate on the matter of animal slaughter. As nowadays animal slaughter is going on without any check, similarly, sometime before, about 2,500 years ago, in India the same condition prevailed. Vedic civilization is very liberal. According to Vedic civilization, the king has to give protection to all the prajās. Prajā means one who has taken birth in his kingdom. Prajāyate. So the animal is also prajā of the government. The trees are also prajā of the government. So formerly nobody could slaughter an animal, nobody can cut even a tree without reason, without sanction by the Vedic injunction. At the present moment in our country, this Bhāratavarṣa is called puṇya-bhūmi. Actually it is so, because on this land all the great saintly persons appeared. The incarnation of God, Lord Rāmacandra, Lord Kṛṣṇa, Lord Buddhadeva, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and all the big, big ācāryas-Śaṅkarācārya, Śrī Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī… So… Vyāsadeva… All of them appeared on this sacred land of Bhāratavarṣa. But the present Bhāratavarṣa has degraded so much that we have lost our Vedic culture. We are now eating meat. We are eating, drinking wine, and we are having illicit sex life and indulging in gambling. This is India's position. It is due to this Kali-yuga. Otherwise the land is puṇya-bhūmi. Because the land is puṇya-bhūmi, therefore in spite of so much fallen condition, still, you are anxious to hear about Kṛṣṇa. You ladies and gentlemen who have come here, sacrificing your time, why? Because still the Vedic culture is twinkling within your heart and you are anxious to hear about Kṛṣṇa, to hear about Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Even somebody wants to cheat you, but because it is advertised in the name of Bhagavad-gītā, many people flock there.

So Bhārata-bhūmi is puṇya-bhūmi, the land of piety. We should understand this. After many pious activities… I have traveled all over the world. They have got enough money, enough material facilities, but still, the Vedic culture is different. It is so high. And it is taken still in estimation, in adoration, all over the world. So my request, especially to the Indians, that do not neglect your culture, the Vedic culture. Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other different meaning of Vedic culture. In the Bhagavad-gītā you have seen,

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam…

[Bg. 15.15]

Kṛṣṇa is to be understood. Vedic culture means to understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. Vedic culture… All the Vedas, they are meaning how to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva. Vedānta. Vedānta means… Veda means knowledge and anta means the end. There is… Everything has got the ultimate, the supreme summum bonum. That summum bonum of Vedic knowledge or Vedānta is Kṛṣṇa. So that Vedānta knowledge, Kṛṣṇa personified, He is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everyone is searching after God: "Where is God. What is God? What is the meaning of God? What God does? What is the power of God?" so many things. So everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, what is God. Sarvasya. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said what is God. That is the first question of the Vedānta-sūtra. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human life (is) especially meant for inquiring about God. Unfortunately, people, instead of inquiring God, they are very much eager now to inquire about dog. This is the position. There are big, big dog shows in India. At the present moment we have seen many places.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to revive the Vedic culture. And the Vedic culture, another name of Vedic culture is sanātana-dharma. Sanātana means eternal, and dharma means characteristic. Dharma generally in English is translated: "religion." Religion means a kind of faith, "I believe in such and such faith"-"I believe in the Muhammadan faith," "I believe in Christian faith," "I believe in Buddha faith." But actually, dharma does not mean faith. Dharma means characteristic. What is that characteristic? Just like every thing, every little item has got its characteristic. Just like take for example chili, it is very hot. The more the chili is hot, it is good. But if the sugar becomes hot like chili, immediately rejected. But if the chili is hot, you accept, "It is good chili." Similarly, dharma means characteristics of the living entity. That is dharma. The living entity is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta jīva-loke sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Sanātana means eternal. God is eternal sanātana, we are eternal sanātana, and there is an eternal place also. This material world is not eternal. The characteristics of this material world is that it appears at a certain date, it continues to stay for a certain period, it develops, then it dwindles and then vanishes. Just like our body, your body, my body. It has got a date of appearance. It is growing or changing from one shape to another. It will stay for some time. From this body, some by-products will come out, sons and daughters, and then it will become old, dwindling, diminishing, and then it will vanish. One day it will come-no more this body. Similarly, this material world is also like that. It is a gigantic body only. Whole cosmic manifestation has a date of its creation. It is expanding and it is giving so many by-products. Then time will come which is called devastation-there will be no more rain and everything will dry up. All living entities will die. Then there will be devastating rainfall. Everything will be absorbed in water and then vanish. We have got this information from Vedic literature. So this is not sanātana-dhāma. This is not eternal dhāma. This is temporary. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It comes into existence and it disappears; therefore it is not sanātana-dhāma.

But there is another dhāma, sanātana, eternal. That is also, there is information in the Bhagavad-gītā. Paras tasmāt tu bhāva anya 'vyaktya 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. So there is sanātana-dhāma, the living entity is sanātana, and God is sanātana, Kṛṣṇa is sanātana. So these three sanātana… Just like we have our dealings. In Bombay there are so many businessmen. The place is Bombay and two parties, business parties, they are dealing. Similarly… But these are all temporary. Our staying in Bombay city is temporary. The dealing is temporary. But there is another place which is called sanātana-dhāma. That place is eternal, and the parties, namely God and the living entities, both of them eternal. Their dealing also eternal. That eternal dealing is called nitya-līlā, eternal pastimes. These descriptions are there in the Vedic saṁhitā, Brahma-saṁhitā.

cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-

lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam

lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.29]

Govinda has dealing. That dealing He represents exactly when He comes, when He appears on this planet, and that dealing is exhibited in Vṛndāvana-dhāma. You know Vṛndāvana-dhāma. When Kṛṣṇa comes… About forty-three crores of years' interval Kṛṣṇa comes. This estimation, these things are there. Kṛṣṇa comes in one day of Brahmā. The duration of Brahmā's day you know, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. This means forty-three lakhs of years multiplied by one thousand. That is the duration of one day of Brahmā. And similarly, the duration of his night. So Kṛṣṇa comes in one day during that duration. So when Kṛṣṇa comes, He comes here the same place, Vṛndāvana. Therefore Vṛndāvana is held in so much estimation by the devotees. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayaḥ. Ārādhya, worshipable Deity, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who appeared as the son of Mahārāja Nanda. Vrajeśa. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Similarly, His place Vṛndāvana is also worshipable; therefore those who are Vaiṣṇavas, especially Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava, they live in Vṛndāvana in numbers. There are hundreds and thousands of Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava still living in Vṛndāvana because they worship the land, Vṛndāvana, as good as Kṛṣṇa because it is Kṛṣṇa's place.

So the sanātana-dhāma. Vṛndāvana is also part of the sanātana-dhāma. The living entity is sanātana, eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We do not die after destruction of this body. This is the preliminary instruction to understand Vedic knowledge, or spiritual knowledge. If you do not understand the plain fact that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I live within this body…" Dehino' smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinaḥ. Dehina means the proprietor of the body. Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya kṣetram ity abhidhiyate [Bg. 13.2]. This śarīra, this body, is called kṣetra, and the person, or the living entity, who is working on this body, he is called kṣetra-jña. Those who have read Bhagavad-gītā, they have come to this understanding of kṣetra and kṣetra-jña. Ksetre-jña means I, you. I know about my body, about the interest of my body. If somebody wants to kill me, I take protection because it is my body, kṣetra. Just like your land, if somebody comes to encroach upon it, you take care. Similarly, this body is kṣetra, the field of activities, and I or you, the proprietor of the body, is kṣetra-jña, one who knows about the body. But there is another kṣetra-jña. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Ksetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. Kṛṣṇa is also kṣetra-jña, Kṛṣṇa is also sitting… As I am sitting within this body, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also sitting within this body.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

He is directing. Actually, under His instruction we are taking permission. Just like you do business in your business office, establishment, but you have to take permission, license from the government. It is very easy to understand. Although you are proprietor of the business, you cannot do anything without being permitted by the government. Similarly, although this body is yours-you are the proprietor of this body, you have been given freedom to utilize the body to your best interest-still, you cannot do anything without the permission of Kṛṣṇa. That is the subject matter to understand spiritual life. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi… Kṛṣṇa confirms this in Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: [Bg. 15.15] "I am entered in everyone's body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: "Through Me, one remembers and one forgets." Because our capacity is very limited. We forget very soon. Even we do not know two lours before what we were doing. So that is our nature. Therefore Kṛṣṇa helps us from within. Even though we forget, Kṛṣṇa does not forget. That is also there in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna asked Him, "Kṛṣṇa, You say that You gave instruction on Bhagavad-gītā long, long ago, some forty thousands of millions of years ago, to sun-god. How can I believe it, because we are contemporary?" So Kṛṣṇa answered, "Yes, at that time you were also present, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is the distinction between ordinary living being and the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is also nitya. The Supreme Being is also conscious. As we are eternal, nitya, and conscious… That is the statement of the Vedas. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the supreme conscious. He is the supreme living being. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is person. Kṛṣṇa is not imperson. Impersonal feature is one of the partial manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Kṛṣṇa is the basis of Brahmā. But the original Brahmā is Kṛṣṇa, Parabrahman, as Arjuna accepted: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12].

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is India's movement because it was started from India. It is meant for everyone because every living entity is sanātana, eternal. It is not that only Indians are eternal. Everyone is eternal. Even the animals, they are also eternal. They have got different body according to their karma. Therefore paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. The paṇḍita does not see the outward dress. As if we talk with you, I do not see what kind of dress you have got, I talk with you as gentleman, similarly, a paṇḍita sees the inner soul. He does not see the outward dress, that "Here is a human being," or "Here is an American, here is an Indian, here is a brāhmaṇa," or "Here is an elephant" or "dog" or "caṇḍāla" or "tree." No. He sees only the spirit soul, the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as one sees the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, he immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa. So therefore one who is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even though he sees a tree, immediately he sees Kṛṣṇa. But as soon as sees the tree, he understands that "This tree is standing here for seven thousands of years according to his karma, but here is a living entity, and this living entity is the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." And as soon as he remembers Kṛṣṇa, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand. Therefore a mahā-bhāgavata, advanced devotee, he sees everything, but in everything he sees Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's energy. That is perfection of life. That is brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] life, realization of Brahman in everything. He understand himself, he understands others. Just like when there is sunrise… In the darkness of night I cannot see you properly, neither you can see me properly. Suppose if the streets are dark, we cannot see, even we pass very near. Similarly, in darkness of ignorance, we do not know actually what is our position. But as in the daytime, when there is sunrise, you can see the sun, you can see the world, you can see yourself, you can see your friend, you can see the whole world… Therefore we have to see Kṛṣṇa. Then this stage will come.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose, that one can see in terms of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In terms of Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta: [Bg. 15.7] "All these living entities, they are My part and parcels." In another place He says,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

So Kṛṣṇa is the ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. Just like the father gives the bīja, yoni… The mother is the yoni, and the father is the bīja. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. We get our body by the bīja and yoni. Similarly, this material world is the yoni, mother, and the Kṛṣṇa is the bīja. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. So in this way different forms of life are coming-8,400,000 species of life. So they are all sanātana. All these living entities are sanātana. But on account of their forgetfulness, being diverted, misled by the illusory energy, māyayā apahṛta-jñānam… That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayā apahṛta-jñānam. Their jñāna, their knowledge, has been taken away by māyā; therefore they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā. "Because they are foolish rascal, therefore māyā has taken their knowledge, and therefore," na māṁ prapadyante, "they do not surrender unto Me." Therefore Kṛṣṇa's last instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].

So we shall gradually discuss all these points. The preliminary is that at the present moment, although we are trying to be united, United Nation, united society, united religion, united… So many things we are trying to be united-communism, united community… But this unity can be possible only when we are actually learned in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

One has to become learned. And the process of learning is not very difficult. It is very easy, especially for the men of this age. That is this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. If you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, is it very difficult for you? God has given you tongue. We are talking so many things, whole day and night. But if we utilize this tongue for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, what is the loss there? That is the injunction of the śāstras. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached this cult.

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ

sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam

[Cc. Antya 20.12]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading this cult of Kṛṣṇa understanding… [break] …and we have got very good scheme of communism as I have stated here in this… (reads) "The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of the living beings." This is spiritual communism. The communist cult is concentrating on the state. That is also limited. Not only on the state, there are so many limitations. Actual communism is this:

vidyā-vinaye-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

Paṇḍitāḥ sama, when we see equally, not only the learned brāhmaṇa… The learned brāhmaṇa or the elephant or the cow or the dog or the caṇḍāla. No matter. Whatever the bodily condition is there, the spiritual condition is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama… This samatā, this communism, equality, is perfect. Their modern theory of communism, that "I am good, my brother is good, and all bad," this is not communism. When we are, we can see that "I am good, my brother good, the dog is good, the cat is good, the Englishman is good, the every living entity is good," that is communism. That is perfect communism. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, or the Bhāgavata-dharma, there is ideal communism. You will find in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the Seventh Canto, Nārada Muni is giving, instructing to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira about this communism that "A gṛhastha, before taking lunch, he must see that every insect, every lizard, every cat, every rat, even a snake in that house must have been fed, must have taken their food. This is so hospitable that the householder, the owner of the house, not only sees that his wife, children, servants are well-fed, but even the rats, cats or the insect or the lizard. Or even the snake has got his food. This is the ideal of communism. Because when you are paṇḍita, learned, you cannot distinguish that "This is animal and this is human being." You can treat them different because their consciousness is… But on the basic principle the living entity-any living entity-it doesn't matter whether it is animal or man-he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot kill one living entity for the satisfaction of the tongue of other… (end)

730130LE.CAL

Lecture at Bhārata Chamber of Commerce

"Culture and Business"

Calcutta, January 30, 1973

Prabhupāda:

oṁ ajñāna timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for kindly inviting me. I'll serve you to my capacity. Today's subject matter is "Culture and Business. So business, we mean business means the occupational duty. According to our Vedic culture, there are different types of businesses. As it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgasaḥ [Bg. 4.13]-the four divisions of social system, namely the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Before doing business, there must be a division who can do what kind of business. There are different businesses. Now we have taken that everyone should take everyone's business. That is not very scientifical division. Therefore there is cultural division. Just like the whole body. The whole body's one unit, but there are different departments also-just like the head department, the arms department, the belly department and the leg department. This is scientific. The head department is called the brāhmaṇa. In the society… And the arms department is called the kṣatriyas, and the belly department is called the vaiśyas, and the leg department is called the śūdras. This is scientific division of business. Although the head department is most important department, because without head, other departments, the arms departments, the belly department and the leg department will be finished. If the arms department is lacking, still business can go on. If the leg department is lacking, the business may go on. But if the head department is not there, if the, your head is cut off from the body, then in spite of having all these arms, legs and bellies, they all become useless. So the head department is meant for culture. Without culture… Just like without head, the arms department, the belly department, the leg department are all useless. Similarly without culture, all these businesses, they creates confusion and chaos. That is the position at the present moment, because there is intermingling of different businesses. There must be one section of people, head department, who should give advice to the other departments. The brāhmaṇas, they're intelligent. They are qualified. Satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam astikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42].

So culture means that one should know what is the aim of life. Without understanding the aim of life, a man without aim is ship without, a ship without rudder. That is an English proverb. So at the present moment, we are missing the goal of life because there is no head department. The whole human society is lacking now real brāhmaṇas who can give advice to the other departments. Just like Arjuna was fighting. He was a military man. His business was to fight. He was engaged in his business, but he was taking at the same time advice of, the advice of the Brāhmaṇa deva, Kṛṣṇa.

namo brahmaṇya-devāya

go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca

jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya

govindāya namo namaḥ

So the brāhmaṇa department, or the adviser department, is described in this verse: namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. The first thing is taken into consideration, go-brāhmaṇa. Why these two things are stressed upon? Because in a society where there is no brahminical culture and where there is no cow protection, it is not human society. So in a chaotic condition, any business you do, it will never be perfect. But in a systematized, systematic, cultural society, you do business. That is perfect. That is the instruction of Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam. In a meeting in Naimiṣāraṇya, where many learned scholars and brāhmaṇas assembled, and Śrīla Sūta Gosvāmī was giving instruction, he said: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The varṇāśrama is stressed. The Vedic culture means four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Unless we take to this institution of varṇāśrama dharma, the whole society will be in chaotic condition.

And the purpose of varṇāśrama dharma is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. As it is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa:

varṇāśramācāravatā

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate puṁsāṁ

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

[Cc. Madhya 8.58]

Just like in a state, you have to satisfy your government; then you are good citizen. Similarly in the cosmic state, taking altogether this whole material creation, if you do not satisfy the Supreme Lord, the proprietor of everything, then it will be chaotic condition. Our Vedic culture means whatever you do, it doesn't matter. You must satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is culture. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya samsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.46]. You can do any business. Any business means the brāhmaṇa's business, the kṣatriya's business, the vaiśya's business and the śūdra's business. That is business. Otherwise you can do any business. But business means there are different classes of business. So Bhagavad-gītā it is said that one should satisfy by his own business the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is said: culture means… Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The, there are different businesses according to different divisions of human society. But their aim should be svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Business means dharma. Another… Dharma means occupational duty. So svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir. One must find out the perfection of his business. That is culture. Culture and business means you may do whatever business you are doing, according to your division, or according to your capacity or according to your qualification. You may be a, a merchant, you may be a professional man, you may be legal adviser, medical man. Whatever you may, it doesn't matter. But if you want perfection in your business, then you must try to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is culture. Otherwise you are simply wasting your time. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajñārthe karma. Yajña. Yajña means Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. For Him you have to work. Yajñārthe karma. Anyatra karma-bandhana. Otherwise you become bound up by the acts, by the reaction of your activities. Karma-bandhana. And so long you are in the bondage of karma, you have to transmigrate from one body to another.

Unfortunately at the present moment, people do not know that there is soul and the soul transmigrates from one body to another. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Big, big professors… I've talked with big, big scientists, professors, but they do not know that there is life after death. They do not know. But according to our Vedic information, we know. And we can ex…, experience in this present life. It is very common thing. Just like a baby has got a body of a boy. The boy has got a body again of a youth, young man. The young man has got a body again of a old man. So similarly, old man, after annihilation of this body, he'll get another body. It is very, quite natural, logical. And we change our body. Although this gross body's destroyed, we change our body by the subtle body. The subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. Just like we forget about this body at night, and the subtle body works. We dream. We are taken away from our home, from our bed, to some other place, and completely forget this body. And when the sleep is over, we forget about the dream and we become attached to this gross body. This is going on-in our daily experience. So I am the observer. I am sometimes in this gross body and sometimes in the subtle body. But it is changing. But I am the observer. Therefore the inquiry should be that "What is my position? At night I forget my gross body, and during daytime I forget my subtle body. Then what is my real body?" These are the questions.

So this is culture. You may do your business. Just like Arjuna: Arjuna was doing his business. He was a fighter, kṣatriya, but he did not forget his culture, hearing Gītā from the master. That is culture. If you simply do business and do not cultivate your spiritual life, then it is useless waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8], the śāstra says. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being spread up that "Do not forget your cultural life." We do not say that you stop your business and become a sannyāsī like me and give up everything. We do not say. Neither Kṛṣṇa said that. Kṛṣṇa never said Arjuna that "You give up your business." "You are kṣatriya. You are declining fighting. Oh, it is very abominable. You should not say like that. You must fight." That was Kṛṣṇa's instruction. So similarly, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we are also advising everyone that "You do not give up your business." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said also: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that "You give up your position." Position, giving up is not very difficult. But to cultivate spiritual knowledge, that is required. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhaḥ [1.5.18]. Now the animal life, there is no cultivation of spiritual life. That is not possible. The animal cannot cultivate this knowledge. The human beings, if they do not cultivate spiritual knowledge, they're exactly like animals. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. So we should be very conscious about our eternal existence. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. We, spirit soul, we are eternal. We are not going to die after the annihilation of this body. This is the cultivation of knowledge. This is called brahma-jijñāsā, to know about one's self. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first disciple, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was minister, finance minister in the government of Nawab Hussein Shah, and he retired and approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he humbly inquired that "These people call me paṇḍita." Because he was brāhmaṇa by caste. Naturally we call a brāhmaṇa "paṇḍita." So Sanātana Gosvāmī placed this: "My dear Lord, these people call me paṇḍita, but I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know who I…, what I am." So that is the position of everyone. We may be businessman. We may be in other profession. But if we do not know what I am, wherefrom I have come, why I am under the tribulation of these material laws of nature and where I am going, what is my next life-if we do not know this, then whatever we are doing, śrama eva hi kevalam. Viṣvaksena-kathāsu notpādayed ratiṁ yadi, viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8].

So our request to everyone that you can be engaged in whatever business, in whatever position Kṛṣṇa has posted you. Do your duty nicely. But do not forget to cultivate Kṛṣṇa knowledge. Kṛṣṇa knowledge means God consciousness. God consciousness means we must know that we are part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. We are eternal part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God, but we are struggling here, manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhāni indriyānī prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Why this struggle for existence? We must know… We have got eternal life. This temporary… Suppose in this temporary life I become Birla or some big businessman for, say, twenty years or fifty years, utmost, hundred years. Next life there is no guarantee that I'm going to be Birla or this man, Tata. No. There is no such guarantee. That we do not take care. We are taking care of the small span of life, but we are not taking care of our life eternal. That is mistake. Suppose in this life I am a very great businessman. Next life, by my karma, if I become something else… There are 8,400,000 species of life, forms of life. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Nine lakhs of forms of life in the water. Then there are insects. Sthāvarā lakṣa… There are trees, plants, two million forms of trees and plants. Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ. Eleven lakhs' species of insects, reptiles. Then birds. Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam. In this way, we fulfill eight millions of different forms of life. Then we come to the form of human life. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said that kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma [SB 7.6.1]. This mānuṣaṁ janma is very, very rare. We should not be satisfied only becoming a very big businessman. We must know what is next life, what I am going to be.

So there are different kinds of men. Some of them are called the karmīs, and some of them are called the jñānīs, and some of them are called the yogis, and some of them are called the bhaktas. The karmīs, they are after material happiness. In this life, also, they want the highest, the best comfort of material life, and after death also they want to be elevated to the heavenly planets. Similarly jñānīs, they also want, they being fed up of this material way of life, they want to, they want to merge into the existence of Brahman. That is jñānī. The yogis, they also want mystic power. And the bhaktas, they want simply service of the Lord. So unless one understands what is Lord, how he can render service to the Lord? This culture is the highest culture. The karmīs' culture, the jñānīs' culture, the yogis' culture and the bhaktas' culture-there are different cultures. So all of them are called yogis if they are doing sincerely their duty. Karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakta-yogī. But Kṛṣṇa says,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

He's first-class yogi. Who is that man? Now, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā: "Who is always thinking of Me." That means Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says, "Who is always thinking of Me." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. There are different yogis-karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī. But the best yogi is he who's always thinking of Kṛṣṇa within himself. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatena-antarātmanā śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām. Śraddhāvān. With faith and love, one who is giving rendering service to the Lord, he's first-class yogi.

There are other verses in the Bhagavad-gītā. [break] …of cousin-brothers, the Pāṇḍavas and the Kauravas. They met there for fighting. That's a historical fact, Mahābhārata, Greater India. Mahabhārata means Greater, History of Greater India. So everything is there. But we do not take advantage of this great book of knowledge. So we request that everyone should cultivate… Should try to know what he is, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is their relationship with Kṛṣṇa, and what is their real life, what is the goal of life. Unless we do cultivate all this knowledge, then it is simply we are wasting our time, this valuable life of human form of life. It is very, very valuable. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad api adhruvam arthadam. Although everybody will die, that's a fact, but one who dies after knowing all these things, he is benefited. His life is successful. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is wanted. Everyone… The cat will die, dogs will die, everyone will die. That's a fact. But one who dies knowing Kṛṣṇa, oh, that is successful death. Because Kṛṣṇa says,

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

[Bg. 4.9]

This is success.

So our only request is, wherever we go all over the world, we request only that "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is successful." It doesn't matter what you do. We have to do something. Kṛṣṇa says, śarīra-yātrāpi te prasiddhyet akarmaṇaḥ. If you stop working, your living condition will be hampered. That is not the question. Everyone has to do his duty. Arjuna also did his duty. He was kṣatriya. His business was to acquire kingdom. Because the kṣatriyas, they cannot beg. They must have some land. Their business is to levy tax. That is enjoined in the śāstras. Brāhmaṇas, they should live by paṭhana pāṭhana yajana yājana. Kṣatriyas should live by giving protection to the people. Vaiśyas should live by trade, agriculture, protection of cows. And the śūdras should live under the protection of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūd…, three higher castes. This is the injunction. So one has to do something for his livelihood, but, at the same time, he has to cultivate knowledge for his perfection of life. So this is perfection of life, simple thing. Simple thing we are prescribing all over the world. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simple. And it is not very difficult. You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is explaining everything. If the neophytes, one who cannot, cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is prescribing like this: raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ: [Bg. 7.8] "My dear Kaunteya, I am the taste of the water." So there is no need of saying that "I cannot see God. I have not seen God." Here is God. The taste of water is God. Everyone is drinking water. And who is not tasting it? He's seeing God. Why do you say that "I do not see God"? You see, as it is directed by God. Then gradually you'll see Him. If you simply remember this instruction, this one instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ, "I am the taste of water. I am the shining illumination of sun and moon…" Who has not seen the sunlight? Who has not seen the moonlight? Who has not tasted water? Then why do you say, "I have not seen God"? If you simply practice this bhakti-yoga, as soon as you drink water and taste and be satisfied, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." So immediately you remember Kṛṣṇa. As soon as you see sunshine, you remember, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you see moonshine, you remember, "Eh, here is…" As soon as you see something wonderful, pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu śabdaḥ khe, as soon as you hear in the sky some sound, so if you remember, "Here is Kṛṣṇa," that means you are remembering Kṛṣṇa in every step of your life. And if you're remembering Kṛṣṇa in every step of life, then you become the topmost yogi. Because Kṛṣṇa says,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate…

[Bg. 6.47]

Mad-gata āntarātmanā. If you feel Kṛṣṇa in every step of life… It is not very difficult. And, above that, if you practice the chanting-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare… There is no tax. Your…, there is no loss of your business. You are all businessmen. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, if you remember Kṛṣṇa while drinking water, what is your loss? Why don't you try it? This is cultivation of knowledge, if you cultivate this knowledge, at the same time go on doing your business, your life will be successful.

Thank you very much. (applause) [break]

Guest (1): How we can come over the ego?

Prabhupāda: You cannot come over. Now you are in false ego. You have to come to the real ego. Now you are thinking, "I am Indian. I am Hindu. I am businessman." These are all false ego. When you come to your real ego, that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," that is your real… Ego, you cannot give up. But this is your false ego. You have to give up your false ego, come to the real ego. That's… Purify your ego. That is required. [break] …dhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Upādhi. At the present moment, I am thinking like that. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra," "I am black," "I am white"-these are the egoism of this body. But I'm not this body. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. So when you come to that stage… Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. When you come to your real ego, then you become happy. And because you are in false ego, you are unhappy. So ego cannot be changed. Because you are eternal, how you can be, ego can be changed? Just like people say, "Give up desires." How can you desire…, give up desires of a living entity? That is not possible. But I have to purify my desires. That is wanted. Just like if you have got some disease. So if you, some, the physician, they say "Pluck out your eyes," that is not good treatment. But you treat the eyes nicely and the sight may be good. That is wanted. So this bhakti-mārga means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. That is bhakti-mārga. You have to give up your false ego. Sarva upādhi. This is upādhi: "I am this, I am that, and…" This upādhi has created trouble in the world. So we have to come to the real ego. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is mukti. Mukti hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Now hitvā anyathā rūpam. My ego is going on in a different way. Unnecessarily I am spoiling my life with these designations. But we have to come to the point of our real identity. So nothing can be given up. As living entity, I must be egoistic. Law of identity. How can I say that "I am not"? I am. I am existing. But now I am existing with designations. If I give up my designations, if I become purified, that is my real ego. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to become nirmala. And when you become nirmala… Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. That is bhakti. So your senses are there. Now with my senses I am thinking that "I am the head of this familyman," "I am head of this community," or "I am…, I have to serve. I have to engage my hand in this way, my eyes in this way, my nose in this way." Senses are engaged in a upādhi, designated. But when this is, designation is taken away, when you become nirmala, the senses remain, the dress of the senses taken away, at that time, your senses are engaged in the service of the Lord, and that is called bhakti.

Bhavānanda: Are there are any other questions? [break]

Prabhupāda: …service to the humanity. Now you are thinking service to the humanity means a section of humanity. And why should you stick your service to the humanity? When one is serving his own countrymen, Indian, he does not care for the Englishman. So don't speak of humanity. Nobody can serve the whole humanity in the present way. But if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the best service to the humanity. Just like we are doing. We have no discrimination, that "These are Indians. These are Americans. They are Hindus. They are Muslims. They are Christians." No. Or "They're cats or dogs." That oneness you can see only when you are Brahman-realized. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Why humanity? Why not the cats and dogs and cows? You are very much anxious to give service to the humanity, but you are sending animals to the slaughterhouse. Why? (indistinct) the lack of knowledge. You do not (indistinct) is part and parcel of God. You cannot select this part and… Therefore the śāstra says, yathā taror mūla-niṣecanena tṛpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopaśākhāḥ [SB 4.31.14]. Just like by watering the root, you can water automatically the branches, the trunks, the twigs, the flowers, the fruits, the leaves-everything is watered. Sarvārhaṇam acyutejyā. Or by supplying foodstuff to the stomach, you serve all the senses of the body perfectly. Similarly, when you begin to serve Kṛṣṇa, then not only to the human society, to the animal society, to the tree society. Every society will be served. That is perfect service. And if you simply limit your service, that is, may be good, but that is not good. According to śāstra… Just like you simply water the leaves, the leaves will not live. They'll dry. But if you supply water to the root, everything will be protected. So actual service will begin when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54], samaḥ sarve… That is samaḥ sarveṣu. And so long you limit, that is limited service. That is not perfect service.

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: [break] …immoral(?) generation means godlessness. It is said in the śāstra, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvaiḥ guṇaiḥ tatra samāsate surāḥ. If you have unflinching faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then all the good qualities of demigods will develop unto you. It is not story. It is fact. Just like these European and American students. They, in their previous life, before becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to our standard, they were all immoral. Our, in India, illicit sex life still, it is admitted, if it is not followed, to have sex relation with other's wife or other woman except one's wife, that is called immoral or sinful. So in Western countries these things are not immoral or sinful. It is very daily affair. But now, because they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have given up all these things. No illicit sex life. Unless one is married, he must remain brahmacārī or vānaprastha or sannyāsī. Only gṛhastha, duly married wife, he can have sex. This is morality. And you should not kill the animals unnecessarily. That is immoral. You are already intoxicated by the influence of māyā. You should not be more intoxicated. This is immoral. You should not indulge in gambling. These are immoral. So as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all these immoralities vanish immediately. That is the only. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā, sarvaiḥ guṇaiḥ tatra samāsate su…, harāv abhaktsya kuto mahad-guṇā. One who is not Kṛṣṇa…, he cannot have any good quality or any morality. That is the decision of the śāstra. So if you want to revive the morality of the society, you must take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then everything will come.

Guest (1): Sir, this…, why we did not have a world with universal brotherhood, universal love?

Prabhupāda: Because you don't want it. Because you don't want it. You do not want. That, that, that is explained in the previous verse, that Kṛṣṇa says,

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi…

[Bg. 18.66]

These miserable conditions are there because we are all sinful. So Kṛṣṇa gives protection that "You surrender unto Me, and I give you protection from the reaction of all sinful life." So who wants Kṛṣṇa? You do not want. Kṛṣṇa says, canvassing, but who is accepting? Then how you can get, I mean to say, liberty or liberation from these sinful activities? Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo. People suffer on account of sinful activities. There are two things, pāpa and puṇya. So if you follow the path of pāpa, then you must suffer. Just like state laws. If you become criminal, you must suffer. You must go to the prison house. You, you cannot argue that "Why government has created the prison house? Why?" Can you argue like that? Yes, there is necessity. The government knows that there will be some rascals who will commit criminal activities; therefore there must be prison house. So this material world is prison house. Every one of us, we are member of the prison house-first class, second class, third class. Just like in the prison house there are different classes. Duḥkhalayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. You cannot expect treatment in the prison house just like son-in-law. No. That is not possible. You must suffer. Otherwise, what is the meaning of prison house? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, although Kṛṣṇa has created this world, He says this is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, this is the place of misery. And aśāśvatam. You cannot make any arrangement. "All right, Sir, let it be duḥkhālayam. Let me remain here." No. That also you cannot remain. You'll be kicked out. This is the place like that. But Kṛṣṇa gives you the idea how you can be happy, how you can get out of this. He says, mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti [Bg. 8.15].

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti…

[Bg. 4.9]

Kṛṣṇa is canvassing you that "You try to understand Me. Come back." But you do not want it. So how Kṛṣṇa can save you? You have got the independence. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "Now I (have) explained to you everything. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Now, whatever you like, you do." So we have got that little independence because we are part and parcel of God. God has got supreme independence and we, being part and parcel… Just like you are all big businessmen. You have got supreme independence in business. Similarly, your sons, they have got also some independence, although subjected. Similarly, we, being part and parcel of God, sons of God, we have got little independence. If we misuse that independence, then we become subjected to all these tribulations. But if we do not misuse… As Kṛṣṇa says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So it is up to you. If you want to remain in this world of duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], you can do so. But if you want to get out of it, you can do so. That is up to you. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault. Kṛṣṇa has given you liberty, little independence, whatever. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. He's given you chance. You want to do this-"All right, do it." You want to do this? "Do this." He's giving you chance. There is a verse, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. He's situated in everyone's heart. He's understanding what you want, and He's giving you all chance: "All right, have it. Enjoy it." But His instruction is that "This will not make you happy." Sarva-dharmān parityaja mam ekam. You do not do it. You must suffer. That is not Kṛṣṇa's fault. That is your fault.

Guest (1): A small thing. Will Your Reverence have… [break]

Prabhupāda: So you have no right to do so.

Guest (1): Say instead of Hare Rāma Hare Rāma, we say Visva ramane rahim, or something like that, will you have no objection to that?

Prabhupāda: No objection.

Guest (1): And will you say…

Prabhupāda: But that is no objection.

Guest (1): …that efficacy will be the same?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If Bismillah means Hare Kṛṣṇa… It is a question of language. So if meaning the same thing, Hare Kṛṣṇa… Hare Kṛṣṇa means we are addressing the Supreme Lord and His energy. Hara means the energy of the Supreme Lord, and Kṛṣṇa means the Supreme Lord. So we are addressing, "My dear Lord, my dear the energy of Lord…" Because Lord and His energy, they are, they are always existing. Just like sun and the sunshine, they're always existing. Sunshine is the energy, but sun is the energetic. Similarly, the Lord is there and His energy's also there. So we are praying both to the energy and to the Lord: "Please engage me in Your service. I am serving māyā. I am not happy. Therefore, please engage me in Your…" My, my constitutional position is to serve. Just like you're all sitting here. Every one of you are servant. If you consider that you are master, that is a mistake. That is māyā. Every one of you are servant. So "I am serving, but now I am serving māyā. I'm not happy. Let me serve You." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if it means that, there is no objection. It is a question of language. It does mean (indistinct). Of course, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says the, the person whose name we chant, holy name, in each, in each holy Allah, or something like that, that is not objected if it is actually meaning the Supreme. If it is meaning something else, that is another thing. This question… Just like water or jala. It (is) the same thing. It is simply a different name. If I ask water, you'll give me the water actually, and if I say, jala, you'll give me the same. So if the meaning is all right, then there is no objection. If the meaning is different, then there is objection. We are not fighting with the language. We are not concerned with the language.

Guest (2): Why God created sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: You have created. God has not created. You have created. Yes.

Guest (1): In what respect?

Prabhupāda: You have created.

Guest (1): In what respect I have created?

Prabhupāda: You want to kill animals. God does not say that "You kill animals." So you have created sinful activities.

Guest (1): I am a part and parcel of the almighty God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): So when animals are butchered, why the butcher does not get pain?

Prabhupāda: Butcher does not get pain? Do you know that? There is a Sanskrit verse that vyādha mā jīva, mā mara: "My dear butcher, you don't live, don't die." Do you think this butcher, that butchering work is very palatable work? Can you see it, before you, a man is killed, an animal is killed? So he has become accustomed. It pains him. But that work is so abominable that he should not live for executing that work. But what is the benefit of dying? Because after death, he will be butchered. Therefore the śāstra says, mā jīva mā mara: "Don't live, don't die." Yes.

Indian man: There is some difference. When we do some good, we consider it as God-inspired, but when we do something bad, then we can't say that it is also God-inspired after we have done it?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what he says.

Guest (2): He says that the inspiration comes from the God for the all works.

Prabhupāda: God inspiration comes for every work. That's a fact. But we deny… Just like… You take this simple exam, example. Just like a thief. From within, he's forbidden: "Don't commit theft." But he does it. He does it. You have got all experience about these things. God says from within, "Don't do it," but we do it. That is the defect of without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a thief. He knows that for his criminal activities he'll be punished. He has seen it, that a thief is arrested and he's taken to the prison house. And he has heard from the śāstra and from lawbooks that committing theft is not good. Why does he commit it? He knows and he has seen it. Why does he do it? Can you answer? He knows that it is not good, and he has heard it from śāstra and from learned lawyers. But why does he do it? This is the influence of nature. As he associated with the nature, ignorance, dark ignorance. He cannot check it. Therefore the best service to humanity is to give him knowledge. Because everyone is in ignorance. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāta yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Everyone is being defeated out of this ignorance. Therefore one should come to the platform of inquiring about the self. That is the best service, athāto brahma jijñāsā, To revive, invoke people to inquire about Brahman, and that will solve all the questions.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730129LE.CAL

University Lecture

Calcutta, January 29, 1973

Prabhupāda: Śrī Gosvāmīpāda, Mr. Mohinath(?), Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly inviting me in this meeting to serve you to some extent according to my capacity. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new movement, started by me, but this movement was started by Kṛṣṇa Himself, five thousand years ago. I need not explain about this movement. Kṛṣṇa, in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, instructed Arjuna the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The, in the Ninth Chapter it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "Always think of Kṛṣṇa," man-manā. Bhava mad-bhakto: "Just to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." And māṁ namaskuru: "Offer obeisances unto Me." Kṛṣṇa instructed, mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Kṛṣṇa instructed that He's the Supreme Personality. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Kṛṣṇa instructed to surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the order of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne.

Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī said:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

When people understood Kṛṣṇa wrongly… Sometimes big scholars say "Sophistry," that "Kṛṣṇa wants full surrender." Others, they say, "Why you should fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa? We have got our own gods." Therefore Kṛṣṇa again came. As Gosvāmī Prabhupāda said: rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya vikṛtir, śrī caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam avyayam. Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, combined together, advented as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu to distribute Kṛṣṇa-prema. Because the mission of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is to teach people how to develop love for Kṛṣṇa. As it is quoted by Gosvāmī Prabhupāda from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

Actually that is first-class religion. We do not say that Vedic religion is first-class or Christian religion is last-class. We do not say that. We say that religious system is first class which teaches the followers how to become lover of God. That is first-class religion. Ahaituky apratihatā: without any cause, and without being impeded. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy is like that, which is explained by Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura: premā pumartho mahān ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam.

So we are preaching this philosophy to the Western countries by the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He desired,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe more nāma

That is His prediction. It is nothing wonderful that we are doing. Simply we are trying to fulfill the prediction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But another order is there by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu that,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' karo paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So that is lamentable. Now Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is being spread all over the world, but our Indian brothers are not joining it, although it is the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra. He requested to the humankind who has taken birth in this land, in this puṇya-bhūmi, Bhāratavarṣa. Not to the cats and dogs, but to the human beings. That time has come now. If you want to prove that you are actually human being in this land, then you must take seriously the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and spread all over the world. That is the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And it is not very difficult. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra sarva deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

To become guru, or spiritual master, is not very difficult task. Simply you have to follow the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as he said. He accepted Kṛṣṇa: the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa tanayoḥ. We have to simply preach that "You are searching after God, you great scientists, theologists, theosophists, mental speculators. You are searching after God, the Absolute Truth. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So our task is very easy. Everything is there. Our Vedic literature is so full, so treasure of knowledge, great treasure of knowledge, we haven't got to make research, search out where is the truth. Truth is there and is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. Why don't you take it? The whole world is suffering for want of this knowledge. Before me, many swamis went in the Western countries, but they did not give the actual pure Vedic culture. They invented their own ways. Therefore it was not very fruitive. It was not very satisfactory. People did not accept. Still there are so many yogis, the so-called yogis, are going there, exploiting the people, and coming back. But our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is taken very seriously in the Western countries. We have got now hundred and two branches all over the world. Only in America, we have got fifty branches. And other countries they have got fifty-two branches-in America, in Canada, in England, in France, in Germany, in Switzerland, in Japan, in Australia, in New Zealand. All over the world. So now we want some of the young men to come forward to become really brāhmaṇas, Vaiṣṇavas. Our Vedic culture is divided into four varṇas: brāhmaṇa kṣatriya vaiśya śūdra. Unfortunately we are simply manufacturing śūdras, not brāhmaṇas. That is the defect of modern education. Śūdra, śūdra means paricaryātmakam kāryaṁ śūdra karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. After education, every (indistinct) is hankering after a service. That is śūdra karma svabhāva-jam. This is not perfect education. There must be brāhmaṇas who are independent. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, whose name is still, still celebrated, he was prime minister of Mahārāja Candragupta, but he was not accepting a single paisa as salary. That was the, formerly, although there was monarchy, still there was a council of learned brāhmaṇas and sages. They used to advise the king. The brāhmaṇas did not take part in politics, but they gave advice, instruction to the kings, rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayoḥ viduḥ. The rājarṣi used to understand what is the values of life under the instruction of brāhmaṇas, and they execute the order of the brāhmaṇas. The people were happy. And because at the present moment such system is lost, people are confused and they are in frustration.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is all-embracing. It can solve all the problems of the world-political, social, economical, religious, everything. It is all-embracing. So my request is that I am working now with my American disciples and European disciples. Why not Indians? I think in this meeting there are many young men, educated, learned scholars. Join this movement and, according to the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' karo paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

This is the time to do welfare activities for the whole world. They are merged into confusion, everywhere. You know that in the Western countries, the hippy movements. What are the hippies? They're also educated, coming from very rich family also, but they do not like the way of envelopment as their fathers and grandfathers liked. They have rejected. So this is the golden opportunity to preach the Kṛṣṇa cult all over the world. You are lamenting because a few yards of land has been taken away from your country as Pakistan, but if you spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the whole world will become Hindustan. There is such potency; I give you my direct perception. People are hankering after it. So long I am in India, practically I am wasting my time. Outside India, this reception is taken so seriously that every part of my moment is properly utilized.

So I have come to this university with a hope that some of you become really brāhmaṇa. The Sanskrit department is meant for brāhmaṇas. Paṭhan pāṭhan yajana yājana dāna pratigraha. A brāhmaṇa is called paṇḍita. Why? Because a brāhmaṇa must be learned. Brāhmaṇa is not called a fool. So this department, Sanskrit department, is meant for the brāhmaṇas. So I wish that some of you must join this movement, go to the foreign countries, preach this sublime cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. There is great need. We have, of course, established so many temples, but still we require to establish temples, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temples, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's temple, in every village, every town of the world. Now from each and every of our centers, we are sending devotees in buses. They are going interior, into the villages of Europe and America, and they are very much well received. England especially, they are going village to village. They are very much well received. This cult is so nice. Even Christian priests, they are surprised. They are surprised. One of the priest in Boston, he issued pamphlet that "These boys, they're our boys, from Christian and Jews. Before this movement, they did not care to come to the churches even. Now they are mad after God." They are admitting. The Christian priestly class, they are not against us. Those who are saner class, they're admitting that "Swamijī's giving something tangible." Their fathers and forefathers come to me. They bow down. They say, "Swamijī, it is a great fortune for us that you have come to our country." So I am alone working, and the movement is being appreciated. And if persons, scholars from this University come forward and teaches this movement, it is meant for that. Brāhmaṇa's business is that, preaching. Brahmā jānāti. One must know Brahman, and distribute the knowledge of brahma-jñāna. That is the business of brāhmaṇas.

So I wanted to recite some stanzas from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but there is no very much time. Long, long years ago, the father of Mahārāja Bhārata, under whose name this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa, so he instructed: nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhati viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Here is the Fifth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhati viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This human form of life, ayam deha… Ayam deha nṛloke: "in the human society." This is not meant for working very hard like the dogs and hogs. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhati viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. Simply by working hard, day and night, for sense gratification, this is done by the dogs and hogs. This is not meant for the human society. But, but at the present moment, people are being instructed in such a way… I've seen so many-especially in Calcutta-so many educated boys and girls, they are hankering after service. Day and night they are working. This is not the effect of education. The effect of education should be peaceful mind, peaceful living. That is the duty of the parents, of the guardians, of the government. When there is monarchical government… We see from the reign of Prthu Mahārāja. He was seeing that every brāhmaṇa is engaged in his occupational duty, every kṣatriya is employed, is engaged in occupational duty. Similarly vaiśya. There was no question of unemployment. That is the first duty of the government to see. Neither there is division of the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśya, śūdra, although it is made by Kṛṣṇa Himself: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. There have been so many anomalies in the society for want of this Vedic culture. Now here is the opportunity. People are accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very nicely. You can introduce this Vedic culture throughout the whole world. They're receiving.

So the human form of life is especially meant for tapasya. Tapo divyam. Here it is said: tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. We are hankering after happiness, but happiness cannot be enjoyed so long our existence is not purified. So for purification of our existence we have to undergo tapasya. So we are introducing this tapasya in nutshell. We are asking our students four principles, four regulative principles. No illicit sex life. Beyond marriage life, there is no sex. No intoxication, up to smoking and drinking tea. No meat-eating. No eggs, no fish. And no gambling. We are… And chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. These five principles we are teaching. These four regulative principles, refraining from sinful activities. These are the basic pillars of sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. That is… We get from the śāstra. Parīkṣit Mahārāja, he enunciated that Kali Yuga. He was… He ordered Kali Yuga, Kali, to live in these places. When he was ordered to go out of his kingdom, he said, "My dear Lord, everywhere is your kingdom. Where shall I live?" So he ordered him that "You live in these places, striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ dyūtaṁ yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ."

So if we want to elevate the social condition, we shall teach people to become purified. Without being purified, simply so-called performance of religious system will not help. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. We should teach people how to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the injunction given by Sūta Gosvāmī in Naimiṣāraṇya, the assembly of great brāhmaṇas, learned brāhmaṇas.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

[SB 1.2.13]

This is the philosophy. So we are teaching this philosophy all over the world. They are being accepted. But I am doing it single-handed. But if some of you come and join us, it will be increased, and people will be very, very happy.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] That is my reply. Otherwise, I have not come to teach you something invented by me. I have come to teach you about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you are not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you must be amongst these four classes of men: duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This is my first reply. So far economic condition is concerned, then I may say, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. God supplies you everything. God is supplying food to the elephant who is eating at a time forty kilos of food, and He's supplying to the ants also. So your anxiety for food, that is not humanly. Even the cats and dogs, they are not anxious for their food. Even the birds, they rise early in the morning, they are also not anxious for the food. God has arranged for food, everyone. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. As you do not try for getting distress, it comes upon you according to your karma, similarly the so-called happiness also will come upon you without any endeavor. But because you have no faith in God, you are thinking that you will die out of hunger. That is not the position. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateto kovido. Our only business is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other problem in human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the human life. But you have been deviated from that high standard of life. You are now questioning in this way. That is my reply. Thank you very much. (end)

730131LE.CAL

Lecture at Indo-American Society

"East and West"

Calcutta, January 31, 1973

(Tape begins with long introduction given by Indian dignitary, omitted here.)

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Mister Allen, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly inviting me to speak something about East and West. Of course, I have got considerable experience now because I am wandering East and West, not only once, at least twice, thrice in a year. So far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is concerned, we have no such thing, East and West. Just like the sun rises from the Eastern horizon and sets on the Western horizon, but the sun is the same. You cannot say that Eastern sun and the Western sun. That is not possible. The planet, this Earthly planet is moving and we are considering that the sun is moving from East and West. The sun, sun is in his position. Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has no such distinction between East and West. If there is such distinction, it is due to lack of knowledge.

Why this lack of knowledge? Because we are under bodily concept of life. According to Kṛṣṇa culture, anyone who is going on under the bodily concept of life, he is not considered as a human being. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

Go-kharaḥ. Go means cow. And kharaḥ means ass. Any person who is accepting this body as himself… Just like generally we say: "What you are?" "I am Mister Such and Such. I am American" or "I am an Indian" or "African." This bodily designation, if I identify my self with this body, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu. Kuṇape means bag. This is a bag. This body is a bag of bones, flesh, urine, blood, and so many other things. You cannot manufacture a living entity by combination of bones, flesh, blood, urine and stool. That is not possible. You are great scientist. You are going to the Moon planet, but if I give you some ingredients like these bones, flesh, stool, urine, can you manufacture a human being? Can you? Can anyone? Is there any scientist in the world who can manufacture a human being by combination of bones, flesh, blood, urine, stool? No. If it is not possible to manufacture, how you are identifying with this body? "I am this body." Do you mean combination of bones and flesh can create such intelligent man?

Just like in your country, George Washington. Many scientists. In our country also, many big leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and others. Do you think that these men are combination of bag, combination-bag of bones and flesh and urine? Therefore, the śāstra says: yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Tri-dhātuke. This body is made of three elements, according to Ayur Vedic system, kapha pitta vāyu. Mucus, bile and air. So actually, the combination of this body is like that. As soon as the spirit soul goes out of this body, it is nothing but bones, flesh and urine and stool and it has to be thrown away. In every society, as soon as the man is dead… So, while he was living, he was acting so nicely, so intelligently. Now as soon as the soul is gone, immediately everything is gone. So do you think it is a combination of bones and flesh? Any sane man will accept it? If you say that something is wanting for giving impetus of birth of life in this body, therefore the body's called dead, that is not a fact. Because after this body's dead, after the soul is gone out of the body, innumerable microbes will come out, decomposition. You cannot say the ingredients which give impetus to generation of life, that is lacking. It is not lacking. Because it is not lacking, therefore millions of other microbes are coming out. That is not a fact, that this is the ingredient of life substance. There are so many arguments.

So if there is any difference of East and West, this difference. (In) the Eastern part of the world, especially India, the people know that "I am not this body." And the Western part of the world, they do not know that "I am not this body." That is the difference. That is the difference. That is the distinction between East and West. In India, go to a village and you ask him that "What you are?" He will say: "Sir, I am suffering or enjoying according to my past karma." Means: "I was living in the past. So according to my action, I am suffering or enjoying the reaction in this life." He believes in the transmigration of the soul. He believes in the future life also. He is very cautious to commit sin because he knows that "If I commit sin in this life, I'll have to suffer next life." This is Eastern life. And in the Western country, I talked with so many big, big professors, especially in Moscow. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swamijī, after death, then everything finished. After death, everything finished." This is the difference, East and West. In the Eastern country, especially in India, a common man will understand the existence of soul. And in the Western countries, a topmost man, professor, he does not know what is soul. That is the difference.

Otherwise, so far your eating is concerned, it is same, either in Eastern country or Western country. You eat something on plate, or they also eat something. You sleep in nice apartment. They also sleep in something like that. You try to defend with your atomic weapons. They also try to defend. You also, after sex, the East and Western, they are also after sex. Not only Eastern and Western, the animals, they are also after these things. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etad paśubhiḥ narāṇām. Eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is common to the animal and to the human being. You may improve the cooking process or eating process but, after all, it is eating. Eating is meant for maintaining your body. That is done by the animals also. These things are not cultural advancement. Real cultural advancement is to know that "I am not this body." "I am spirit soul." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is the difference.

So this education is in India. This Bhagavad-gītā. The beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

This is Eastern gift. So I have gone to the Western countries to give this Eastern gift. And it is being accepted by your children. All these American, European boys, they're accepting it. Not only hundreds, but thousands. People say that "Swamijī, you are doing wonderful." I say I am not doing wonderful. I do not know any magic. I have no mystic power. But I am presenting actually the Eastern culture to the West. That's all. It is not unreasonable. Any child can understand that there is soul. One doctor in Canada Montreal I think… What is the name of that medical prac…?

Devotee: Bigelow.

Another devotee: Bigelow.

Prabhupāda: So he is he's now speaking that there is soul. He's a cardiologist.

Devotee: Doctor Bigelow.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Tell him, that man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doctor Bigelow.

Prabhupāda: So I had some correspondence with him, and he admitted: "Swamijī, your people know much about these things than we know." So there is no question of you and me. It is simply education. Just like these boys. Four or fives year, ago, they did not know anything about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But because they have been educated with this Bhagavad-gītā, they are also following me. And they are very sound in their conviction in this Western, Eastern culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of course from my part of view, I do not think there is any East and West. Any knowledge is meant for the whole world. Any scientific knowledge. Just like Professor Einstein, if he discovered the law of relativity, it is not for the Western people. It is for the Eastern people also. So there is no such question. When there is culture, when there is knowledge, there is no question of Eastern and Western. But the difference is the Eastern people may know something very nicely and the Western people may take some time. Similarly, Western people may know something very nicely, the Eastern people may take little time. Just like for technology, they go to Western countries to learn how machine works. So they also learn it. In Eastern…, in India, they're also learning. So now the time is ripe that we should not think in terms of Eastern and Western. We should be hankering after real knowledge. That is wanted. That is the point of unity.

Now for lack of knowledge, the United Nations, they're also, the Eastern and Western people have gone to make a solution of the world problems. But they're unable. My next headquarter is New York. I go on the First Avenue. Most occasionally I see there is the United Nations Building. But instead of diminishing the flag, they're increasing. They're increasing. I do not know what is the meaning of this United Nations. Why? Big, big brain, big, big politicians, big, big learned scholars, and they are speaking. But why the nations are not united? It is is, it is simply a show only. Because lack of knowledge. It is due to lack of knowledge. What is that lack of knowledge? Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Everyone is thinking: "I am this body." They have gone to unite together. But their basic principle of knowledge is the same, that "I am this body." American, he's thinking: "I am this body. American." Russian, he's thinking: "I am this body, Russian." And they are fighting. Why the fighting? Due to this body. But if we understand this very simple thing, that I am not this body, everything is united. So the lack of knowledge is there. How we'll be united, culturally or this way? It is not possible. The first lack of knowledge must be eradicated, that why you, why we are missing the point? This is the point.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Asmin dehe, in this body, there is the proprietor of the body. That is soul. Asmin dehe, on this body, there is the proprietor of the body. this proprietor of the body constantly changing different types of bodies. The example is given that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, the boy is changing his body to youthhood, and young man is changing, his body to old body. Similarly when the old man dies, he does not die. He accepts another body. This knowledge. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. One who's actually in knowledge, he's not surprised that a man is dead. He's not dead. And the example is given just you change your dress. Now some of you are present here with a coat, black color. You can change it tomorrow into white color. That does not make any difference, that you are dead. Similarly, when we change our body. Just like I was a baby. Everyone knows. I, I remember that I had a little body. I remember at least. But that body is missing now. I remember that I was young man. I had a very youthful body. But that is missing now. And my elderly person, he may also, he may also know that he has changed his body, but he's not dead. I know that I have changed my body. I have simply changed my body, but I am living. I remember the body. Similarly, when we change our body, it does not mean that I am dead. Tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati.

And further explained in the Bhagavad-gītā that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The living entity, after the annihilation of this body, does not die. How it transmigrates? How the living entity transmigrates from one body to another? By the subtle body. There is a subtle body. This is gross body. The subtle body works when you are asleep. We go outside my bedroom and we see so many things, we work in so many ways. That is subtle body. So after the destruction of this gross body, this subtle body carries me to another gross body. It is a great science. Great science. That is explained very nicely in the Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literatures. So why the scientists of the Western country do not take this matter seriously? I was invited to speak in Boston, the Massachusetts Technical Institute. So I first inquired all the students: "Where is your technological department, when the body stops, you can again give him vitality and he may work? Where is that technology?" So the students liked it. And we had very nice discussion. So we are very much advanced in technology. But we do not know what is the technology of the soul transmigrating from one body to another. That is ignorance. That is ignorance.

And this ignorance prevails in animals also. The animals do not know. Because they are not advanced in knowledge. But they have got also soul. Their soul is evolving or transmigrating from one body to another. There is a system. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa viṁśati. From the aquatics. Because the whole world was merged into water, devastation. Therefore the beginning of living entities, (is) the aquatics. From the aquatics, they come to the plants, trees. Then from plants, trees, to insect. From insect to birds. Then bird to beast. From beast to human being. Aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu. They're all mentioned. The evolutionary theory, it is not new thing, as it is stated by Darwin. It is there in the Padma Purāṇa. But it is very perfectly explained there. Darwin has not very perfectly explained. There are so many defects. But real thing is that the living entity, soul, is transmigrating from one body to another and the chance of developed consciousness is human form of life. In this human form of life, if we do not understand "What I am, wherefrom I have come, where I am going next, why I have taken this body, subjected to so much miserable tribulations of life which I do not want?"

Ultimately, all our miserable conditions have been summarized into four, birth, death, old age and disease. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We are trying to have, become happy by our scientific knowledge, by advancement of knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says that you cannot make any solution of these four problems. What is that? Birth, death, old age and disease. That is not possible. So we are happy by false happiness. This is called māyā. This is culture, this Indian culture. They agree, there is a māyā. This is Eastern culture. Māyā. Māyā means we are falsely happy. We are thinking that "Now I am well situated." But I am not thinking any moment, next moment, I may be kicked out of the situation and everything finished. Why I am being kicked out? I want to stay here permanently. Nobody wants to die. Why he dies? Where is the solution? This is lack of knowledge. But there is solution. There is solution. That is Eastern culture. The Eastern culture knows how to make the solution. Therefore, you'll find so many parties, the karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogis, the bhaktas, they are all trying to make solution of these four problems, birth, death, old age and disease. That is Eastern gift. So now it is very happy moment that Indo-American Society. I wish that the Indo-American society should give a special stress to know why these four miserable conditions of life cannot be solved. And there is a solution. We can give you the solution. In the Bhagavad-gītā there is solution:

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

[Bg. 4.9]

That is culture. That is really business of the human being that "I am put into this material condition of life. I am changing from one kind of body to another. Who knows that I am not going to become a tree next life?" But there is another species of life like tree, like birds, like beasts. There is no guarantee. There is no scientific guarantee that "You are not going to be tree, you are again going to become American." No, there is no guarantee. But there is guarantee. Because the so-called scientists cannot make solution of this problem, they do not believe in next life. That is their defect of knowledge, lack of knowledge. They cannot make any solution. He wants to live permanently, but he cannot live by the laws of nature. Why does he not make a solution of this? But we can give the solution. Everyone does not want to become old. But he becomes forced to become old. Why he does not make any solution? But that solution we can give. This is Eastern culture.

So I request all you ladies and gentlemen to take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sentimental movement. It is a very authorized, scientific movement. You are all educated, advanced ladies and gentlemen. I'll request you to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The American boys, it is already we are combining East and West socially, politically, religiously, philosophically, economically, everything. There is solution. But if you take it seriously. If you think this is a movement, sentimental move… It is not sentimental movement. It is a most scientific movement. Any scientist come to me. I can convince him that it is a scientific movement. I asked similarly to Professor Kotovsky in Moscow that "My dear Professor, what is the difference between your movement, communist movement, and my movement? You, you have selected Lenin as God. I have selected Kṛṣṇa as God. Where is the difference of principle? You cannot live without a leader or God. I cannot live without a leader or God. That's a fact. Then where is the difference? Now it is to be judged whether Lenin is good or Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But your position is that you have to accept one leader, either Lenin or Jawaharlal Nehru or Hitler or this or Lord (?) Churchill. You have to accept. You cannot work independently. Therefore you have got so many parties. So here is also one party, Kṛṣṇa party. So where is the difference in philosophy? There is no difference in philosophy. Now let us study whether Kṛṣṇa party is good or Lenin party is good. Then whole solution is there."

Thank you very much Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Prabhupāda: (Answers questions) …Yes. (aside:) It is not working. [break] …eternal soul is there in the Bhagavad-gītā that… That I have already explained. Asmin dehe, in this body there is the proprietor of the body. This is conception of soul. Just like whenever we see some apartment or house we can understand that there is a resident or proprietor of this house. Similarly, we can understand, this body, there is some proprietor within this body. Therefore the body is working. If we see one house, nicely cleansed, there is light and everything is in order, we can understand there is resident. Similarly, when the proprietor of the body is there, the body is healthy… [break] …That is the conception of existence of the soul. Nobody can deny it. [break]

…as soul without the body means ghost. Yes, that's a fact. Ghost means he has got no gross body, but he's working with the subtle body. We have got two kinds of bodies. The gross body is made of five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky. And the subtle body is made of intelligence, mind and ego. So when a soul does not get a gross body, he has to work with the subtle body, that is ghostly life. So ghostly life is not false. Those who are too, too much sinful, sometimes they are condemned not to get a gross body. Just like if a man commits suicide. So nature gave him this gross body. He misused it. Therefore he's punished sometimes not to get again gross body. He becomes ghost.

Guest: (indistinct question)

Prabhupāda: What is that? [break] …means you accept another body. So long you are under the laws of karma, you have to accept another body.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

Nature. You are desiring so many things in your life. They are recorded. And you have to accept each and every body, one after another. That is nature's gift. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. That is the nature's work. As you desire, so you get a body. If you misuse the body, then for sometimes you are restrained not to get a gross body. There are so many scientific problems about this life and transmigration of the soul. You can understand from the authorized Vedic literature, how the soul transmigrates from one body to another. That is also explained. The soul remains with the subtle body which we cannot see, but after destruction of this gross body, the soul is carried to another gross body according to his desire by the subtle body. The example is given: just like the flavor of flower garden is carried by the air, and if you do not, even though you do not see the flower, when you smell the good smell, you can understand wherefrom the air is blowing. Similarly, according to your desire, you get a body and that desire, that capsule of mind, intelligence will carry you to another body. God will give you the chance. This is the process.

Guest: If that is the case, then… [break]

Prabhupāda: …The ultimate goal of the soul is to reach God. That is the process. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇu. They do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. The ultimate goal of life is to reach God. That is really culture. So people do not know it. They think: "My ultimate goal of life is to make some good bank balance." But that is not the ultimate goal of life. The bank balance will be finished as soon as you give up this body. Your skyscraper building and bank balance, everything. Now according to your karma, according to your desire, karma means according to your desire, you'll have to accept another body. So these bodily activities, this possession of this body will be finished with your death. Then you have to begin another chapter. It may be human being, or it may be demigod, or it may be animal. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

So we have to accept another body. Therefore, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving intelligence to the person that "Here is your ultimate goal of life, Kṛṣṇa. Come here. Be trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." This is our movement. That is the ultimate goal. [break] …go somewhere. Because you are eternal. Simply by finishing your body, you will not finish. You have to go. But where you shall go? That you can plan in this life. And if you make this plan, that "I want to go back to home, back to Godhead…" The Bhagavad-gītā is there. You study. You cultivate this knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. "My dear Arjuna, such persons who have developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly, after giving up this body, he does not accept any more material body." Tyaktvā deham. "After giving up this body…" Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Janma means birth, means accepting another material body. Otherwise, the soul has no birth, no death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. The soul never takes birth or never dies. It is the body only. It takes birth and dies according to my karma. So if one becomes Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, the ultimate goal of life, then after giving up this body, he does not accept any more any material body. Then what does he do? Mām eti, "He comes to Me." This is the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the ultimate goal of life.

Guest: Can't the (indistinct) attain through any other religion? (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Everyone. Don't you see it is practically? They were all Christians, Jews, Mohammedans. How they are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Guest: So is Kṛṣṇa consciousness the only method?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious… You… Maybe it in otherwise. But the aim is that there is God. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, we are now separated. We must be united again. That is the life's business.

Guest: So any other religion also can give…

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why not? Any religion. We do not way that "You practice this religion or that religion." We say "Just try to go back to home, back to Godhead." That is our philosophy.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

If you want really happiness then you follow such principles by which you can develop your love for God. So it does not mean… If you can do it in Christianity, that's all right. If you can do it by Muhammadan religion, that's all right. But the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our philosophy. (American gives short speech thanking Śrīla Prabhupāda, then Indian man (possibly life member) makes similar speech, but praises bhakti and chanting, quotes Bhagavad-gītā, etc. Then kīrtana begins) (end)

730225LE.JKT

Lecture Excerpt

Jakarta, February 25, 1973

Prabhupāda: …all politicians, let them come, study. [break] …this is not a movement sentimental. No. It is scientific. (indistinct) …Christian, anyone, because it is science. Automatic, "Two plus two equal to four." It is four for everyone. Not that because one is Muhammadan it will be five, or because one is Christian it will be three. No. "Two plus two equal to four." Just like (indistinct). Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be efficient for everyone if he studies impartially. Otherwise, how in the Western world the Americans-they are not foolish people, all these young men; they are qualified, educated-they're accepting this movement very seriously? I have got many branches almost in every city in America now. Similarly, in Europe. Why not here? Simply I invite all the intelligent class of men to understand. Take one of our books. We have given not only one Bhagavad-gītā… (indistinct) means (indistinct). Anyone can take part (indistinct) illiterate, literate, rich, poor-anyone. But if anyone is proud of his education, let him come and study our books, understand this philosophy, and I'm sure he'll find (indistinct) satisfying. Don't take it as something sentimental, religious (indistinct). It is a scientific, educational movement. Take it in that (indistinct), and you'll be profited.

Thank you very much. (applause) [break] (kīrtana) (end)

730226LE.JKT

Lecture

Jakarta, February 26, 1973

Prabhupāda: So where is your national? Your national home is back to home, back to Godhead. That is your national, real, actual home. That is called sanātana. That I was explaining. There is another place, material…, spiritual world. That is also called sanātana. And the jīva, the living entity, is also mentioned as sanātana. And Kṛṣṇa is also mentioned as sanātana. When these three sanātanas come together, that is called sanātana life, and any process that takes us to that sanātana position, that is called sanātana-dharma. That is called sanātana-dharma. We know sanātana-dharma. We have heard it only. But sanātana-dharma is not limited to a certain class of men or certain class of society or certain kind of country. No. Sanātana-dharma is meant for all living entities, because the living entity is sanātana, and God is sanātana, and the place where we can exist eternally, that place is called sanātana. And the process which teaches us to go back to sanātana land, sanātana existence, that is called sanātana-dharma. Try to understand, most of our Hindus, they call the sanātana-dharmī, but sanātana-dharma is not limited for any particular type of society. It is meant for the whole human being, living entity. Living entity sanātana. So when you accept this, when you understand what is sanātana, and we employ ourself in that process, that is called execution of sanātana-dharma.

So we are spreading this sanātana-dharma, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, throughout the whole world, not on the superficial platform of this bodily concept of life. We are teaching everyone that "You are not this body." Actually we are not, but it is because we are, at the present moment, we are educated as first-class rascals and fools, we are thinking that "I am this body." This is the defect of the modern civilization. But actually what Kṛṣṇa is trying to instruct Arjuna… Arjuna means everyone. He's not simply talking with Arjuna. Arjuna is simply via media. He's talking to the whole human society, intelligent class of men, that "We existed, we are existing now, and we shall exist also in the future." This is called sanātana, eternity. So na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ: "In the future we also shall exist." Now we should consider what is the problem now: I was present in the past, I am now present in the present, and I shall exist in the future. Then what is my problem? The problem is why I am changing this position of eternity? I am sanātana. I am eternal. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is the real existence, that I am Brahman. Brahman means eternal. But Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman. Param means the supreme, the chief. Therefore there are two terms in the Vedic language: ātmā, paramātmā; brahman, parabrahman; īśvara, parameśvara. There are two terms. We are not parameśvara, not paramātmā, not parabrahman. We are ātmā, īśvara… We can say, "I am īśvara." What does it mean, īśvara? Īśvara means controller. So, although we are servant, at the same time we are controller. That we can experience. I am now working in the office. I am servant of the establishment, but I'm given some power to control over certain departments. So simultaneously, I am servant and controller. As controller, I can be called īśvara, īśvara, god, as controller. But I am not controller, Supreme Controller. That I cannot say. Nobody can say that "I am the Supreme Controller." That you cannot say. You can control, say, a dozen of men. Another can control a hundred men. Another can control a thousand, or millions. But nobody can say that "I am the controller of the whole universe." That is not possible. That controller is Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore in the śāstra it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]: "The Supreme Controller is Kṛṣṇa." You are not supreme controller. Controller means god. So you can become a god, but you are not Supreme God. Therefore we use the word Godhead. Our magazine name is Back to Godhead. Not to "God." God, there are so many. Even the rascal, he is also god. That is another thing. But Godhead, that is explained in the Vedic literature, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. This is explanation. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. And how is He? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. He has got His form. God is not formless. Vigraha. Vigraha means form. But what kind of form? Sat-cid-ānanda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, and ānanda means full of bliss. You find that form, Kṛṣṇa's picture, always blissful, ānanda. You'll see here is Kṛṣṇa's picture. Here He's enjoying with his pleasure potency, Rādhārāṇī. That is His own potency. When Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, described, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. When Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gītā, he said…, he addressed Kṛṣṇa not as Kṛṣṇa. Before that he was addressing Kṛṣṇa, because he is friend. Now when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he understood Kṛṣṇa also. He addressed Him, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: "You are perfect." So if Kṛṣṇa is even naughty actually, He's Parabrahman. So when Parabrahman wants to enjoy… Parabrahman must enjoy. Parabrahman is not without enjoyment, because wherefrom the idea of enjoyment comes unless it is in the Parabrahman? That is described in the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahman, inquiry about Brahman, Parabrahman, both. So what is that Parabrahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] wherefrom everything comes. Everything, all emanations.

So this ānanda potency… We are seeking after ānanda. Every one of us, we are seeking after pleasure. This is struggle for existence. Everyone wants to be happy, peace and pleasure. But wherefrom this idea comes? The Vedānta-sūtra says janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] it also comes from Parabrahman. So if Parabrahman has no such tendency how to enjoy, wherefrom this so-called love in this material world between young boy and young girl comes? There cannot be any existing. It is only perverted reflection of that pleasure potency of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. It is only perverted reflection. It is not false. It is temporary, perverted. Just like the example is sometimes given to mistake a rope as snake. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they give. They say it is māyā. But it is not māyā. When you mistake a snake as…, mistake a rope as a snake, that is not māyā. That is illusion. You can call it māyā. But the snake is there. You cannot say, because it is rope, therefore there is no snake. No. Snake is there. Otherwise, how it comes to the idea of snake? The snake is a fact, but you are mistaking the rope as snake. That is your mistake. But snake is not illusion; snake is a fact. Similarly, another example is given. Just like in the desert, the mirage… In the desert sometimes, the animals find that water, there is a vast mass of water, and when they're thirsty, they jump over and go farther, farther, farther. But because there is no water, he dies. But no sane man goes after that water. But water is not false. That water is being sought in a false place. Similarly, the pleasure, the pleasure between two sexes, man and woman, that is not false. But we are seeking that pleasure in a false place in this material world. Therefore you have (indistinct). It is a great science.

So there is the pleasure, this sex attraction. But that sex attraction is not material, Kṛṣṇa, rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī śaktir asmāt, ekātmānāv api deha bhedaṁ gatau. Try to understand. For Brahman perception, Brahman pleasure, a great saintly person, he gives up everything material. He takes sannyāsa, he goes, undergoes severe penances, just to realize brahmānanda. So when Brahman… A person, ordinary person, to realize brahmānanda, he gives up everything material, do you think Kṛṣṇa, the Parabrahman, is enjoying something material? Just try to understand. Kṛṣṇa does not enjoy anything. He's Parabrahman. For understanding Brahman pleasure, a person is recommended to give up everything material. And when the Parabrahman wants to enjoy, does it means that He's enjoying something material? This is our nescience(?). This is our misunderstanding. When Parabrahman enjoys, He… But the difficulty is that this Māyāvādī philosopher, they cannot understand that in the spiritual world there is also pleasure. Their foolish brain cannot accommodate. Because here in this material world they have got very bad experience of this material… They want to make the spiritual world as zero or imperson due to less intelligence. But actually, real life, real pleasure, eternal pleasure is there in the spiritual world, not in this material world.

So from Bhagavad-gītā, if you study scrutinizingly each word and each śloka-not by man interpretation, but actually as it is-then we can understand what is our eternal life, what is our eternal pleasure, how we can return and sport there. Everything is explained there. Everyone can go. Everyone can transfer himself in that spiritual world-simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And the Kṛṣṇa understanding is there. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. He, if you do not introduce your so-called foolish scholarship, then you get actually back to home, back to Godhead, by simply studying Bhagavad-gītā. But if you add your foolish rascal scholarship, that "Kṛṣṇa means this and that means this, this means that," then you are lost. Study Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You get all information how to realize Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. So 'ham. Don't misinterpret. Don't… There is no… Just like Kṛṣṇa… This verse is very plain. This verse says, na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsam. Where is the difficulty? "My dear Arjuna, both I, you… It is not that I did not exist, you did not exist. Neither this soldier." Where is the difficulty to understand? Why should we misinterpret?

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

[Bg. 1.1]

No. The main meaning is very plain: that Dhṛtarāṣṭra was asking his father's secretary, Sañjaya, "My dear Sañjaya, māmakāḥ, my sons and pāṇḍavāḥ, my brother's sons, Pāṇḍavas, they assembled," dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1], "in the Kurukṣetra Field, which is known as dharma-kṣetra, the religious pilgrimage. After that meeting, what did they do?" Now, where is the difficulty to understand this verse? But unfortunately, one so-called scholar or so-called foolish man will come, he'll say, "Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetra means this body." No. "Where you get this meaning, sir?" But he'll say, explain in this way: "The Pāṇḍava means five senses." Well, in which dictionary you'll find? This is going on. This rascaldom is going on. If you'll give up this rascaldom, simply read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you'll become successful in life. That is our preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730227LE.JKT

Lecture

Jakarta, February 27, 1973

Prabhupāda: If there are people who cannot understand Hindi, so that is the (indistinct). This is (indistinct). Hindi or English?

Devotee: English.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) There are many foreigners.

Devotee: Yes. I think there are many foreigners, they will understand.

Prabhupāda:

brūhi yogeśvare kṛṣṇe

brahmaṇye dharma-varmaṇi

svāṁ kāṣṭhām adhunopete

dharmaḥ kaṁ śaraṇaṁ gataḥ

This is a question made by the great saintly persons who assembled in Naimiṣāraṇya to hear about Bhāgavata-dharma. Real dharma, as I have already explained, just like… Dharma means bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma is not a faith. It is a fact, characteristic of the human being. Bhāgavata means in relationship with God, bhagavān, bhāgavata-tattva. This word… From bhāgavata-tattva there is bhāgavata. The root is the bhaga, and from that root this word is derived, bhāgavata. It is pertaining to the Personality of Godhead and His devotees. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the book of knowledge which is dealing with the Supreme Personality of Godhead with His different devotees. That is called Bhāgavata. There are two kinds of bhāgavata. One bhāgavata is this book, book bhāgavata. This book Bhāgavatam is the sound incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And there is another bhāgavata, who is spiritual master or the Vaiṣṇava, a devotee of the Lord. He's also called bhāgavata. A great devotee is called mahā-bhāgavata. So there are two kinds of bhāgavatas. The mercy representation of God is book bhāgavatam. Sound vibration, sound representation of God is from the book bhāgavatam. And the mercy representation of God is called the devotee bhāgavata.

So here the question is that "After Kṛṣṇa's departure…" Kṛṣṇa lived or stayed in this planet for 125 years. After that, He went back to own abode. Here the question is, brūhi yogeśvare kṛṣṇe. Yogeśvara means the controller of all mystic power. Yoga is mystic power, and Kṛṣṇa is the master or the controller of all mystic powers. Therefore He's called Yogeśvara. Lord Śiva, he's called Yogīśvara. He's the best amongst the yogis. And Kṛṣṇa is called Yogeśvara. This yogeśvara word is also in the Bhagavad-gītā: yatra yogeśvara hari. So Kṛṣṇa is the controller and master of all mystic power; therefore He's called Yogeśvara. Brūhi, "Kindly let us know," yogeśvare kṛṣṇe, "when Kṛṣṇa went back to His abode, Goloka Vṛndāvana," yogeśvare kṛṣṇe brahmaṇye. Brāhmaṇa, brahmaṇya means He's the original brahminical culture or He's worshiped by the brāhmaṇas. Viṣṇu, or Lord Viṣṇu is worshiped by the topmost class of men. So in the human society the topmost class of men are considered the brāhmaṇas. As it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The human society must be divided into four classes of men. That is perfect human society. First-class men, second-class men, third-class men, and the fourth-class men. And after these fourth-class men, they're all fifth class, pañcama. So the first-class men are the brāhmaṇas, qualified brāhmaṇas, śamo damaḥ titikṣava, ārjava. And the second-class men are the kṣatriyas. The third-class men are the vaiśyas. And the fourth-class men, they are called śūdras. And the fifth-class, below the fifth-class, they are called pañcama or caṇḍāla. This is Vedic division of human society. So Kṛṣṇa is worshiped by the brāhmaṇas; therefore He's called brahmaṇye, or who gives protection to the brahminical culture. When Kṛṣṇa is offered obeisances, respectful obeisances, He's offered like this:

namo brahmaṇya-devāya

go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca

jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya

govindāya (namo) namaḥ

So Kṛṣṇa, first business is go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, He's the protector of cows and brāhmaṇas. Why? Why He's specially giving? Nowadays it has become a fashion, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā, to give protection to the daridras. That is good idea. But why you should bring Nārāyaṇa amongst the daridras? Nārāyaṇa is not daridra. Nārāyaṇa is the husband of Lakṣmī, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. Not only one Lakṣmī, millions of Lakṣmīs. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānam. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. Surabhīr abhipālaya. In the transcendental world, in Kṛṣṇaloka, there are…, there that is called goloka. Goloka means that planet is full of many cows, and those cows are known as surabhī. Surabhī. The Kṛṣṇa is habituated to take care of the cows. Just like nowadays any respectable gentleman is supposed to take care of dog, similarly, Kṛṣṇa (indistinct) take it as hobby, so He has got the hobby of giving protection to the cows. Surabhīr abhipālayantam. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānam [Bs. 5.29]. And Kṛṣṇa is worshiped by many, many thousands of Lakṣmīs, these gopīs. The gopīs, they're all Lakṣmīs, expansion of goddess of fortune. They're not ordinary. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyā. Here in this material world everyone is worshiping Lakṣmī, or goddess of fortune. In the beginning of the year everyone worships Lakṣmī so that Lakṣmī may be pleased and money may come. But here (indistinct) we are worshiping Lakṣmī (indistinct), but there in the spiritual world not only one Lakṣmī but thousands of Lakṣmīs are worshiping Govinda. This is Kṛṣṇa's position. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama. And they're worshiping with all respect. So Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu or Nārāyaṇa, They cannot be daridra. This is a misconception. This is manufactured concoction, daridra-nārāyaṇa. How Nārāyaṇa can be daridra? He's worshiped by many, many thousands of Lakṣmīs. How He can be daridra?

So Kṛṣṇa is brahmaṇya-deva and is surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. The surabhī cows…. Why they're called surabhī cows? Surabhī cows means you can take that milk from surabhī cows as much as you require and as many times as you like. Here in the material world the cows are there, you can take milk from the cows utmost twice, and not as much as you like; as much as she likes to deliver, you can take. But surabhī cows, because they are in the spiritual world, you can draw as much milk as you can, and as many times as you can. But such cows are taken…, tendered by Lord Kṛṣṇa, surabhīr abhipālayantam. These are the descriptions in the Vedic literature about Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not an imagination. As the Māyāvādī philosophers, they think of imagining the form of God-Kṛṣṇa's not that type of God. He's described in the Vedas, Kṛṣṇa: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan

nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu

kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo

govindam ādi-puruṣam…

[Bs. 5.39]

Kṛṣṇa is the parama-pumā, the Supreme Personality. And rāmādi-mūrtiṣu, an incarnation, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, there are thousands and thousands of incarnations. Here also Kṛṣṇa's incarnation.

So here it is said that when Kṛṣṇa departed from this world, His abode, because He's (indistinct)… His whole existence is from dharma, religious principles. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata: [Bg. 4.7] whenever there are discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principles… Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, abhyutthānam adharmasya. One side, if religion is neglected, then irreligious principles will develop. That is the nature of everything. If you neglect this side, this side will be (indistinct). So Kṛṣṇa also says that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya, "I come, I appear, My only business is to reestablish the religious principles." Kṛṣṇa does not come to this planet for making some money. He has got enough money because He's worshiped by the goddess of fortune. His business, coming down on this planet: to reestablish the religious principles. Dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. And what is that religious principle? The religious principle is not man-made. Just like we have manufactured so many religious principles: this is Hindu dharma, this is Muslim dharma, this is Christian dharma, and this is this, this is that. So many. Kṛṣṇa does not come to reestablish the principles of this man-made religion. No. He has nothing to do. Because they are manufactured, concocted by imperfect men, they are not religious principles. The religious system means, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the principles which is given by God Himself. That is religion. You cannot imagine. Just like I have already explained. You cannot make law at home, that "I am a big man. I make my own law." That you can do. You may go on amongst some of your friends or your servants, but that law will not be accepted by everyone. But the law given by God, that will be accepted by everyone. Just like law given by the state government is accepted by everyone. So religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. The principles of religion means which is given by God.

So what is that religion? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā very clearly: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is religion. Your man-made, so-called, manufactured religion you give up. (indistinct). It has got some temporary value. It has not permanent value. The permanent value of religion is that religion which is given by God. And that is… What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ, you simply surrender unto God. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. And Kṛṣṇa is the best name of God. Kṛṣṇa means "all-attractive." God must be all-attractive. God cannot be attractive for a few men or few, for a…, by a community. No. God must be attractive by everyone. That is God. So, Kṛṣṇa, by His opulences, by His strength, by His beauty, by His knowledge, by His renouncement-everything complete. Therefore He's God. Kṛṣṇa has… These are the attractive features. If one is very rich, he's attractive. If one is very powerful, he's attractive. If one is very beautiful, then he's attractive. If one is very wise, he's attractive. If one is in the renounced order of life, first-class, he's attractive. So Kṛṣṇa has all these opulences; therefore He's accepted as God-not superficially-by great, great saintly persons. Therefore Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord: paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. It is not that because he was Kṛṣṇa's friend, therefore, out of his sentiments he accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He accepted on the authority of the Vedas. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So according to Vedic system, all sages, all the great saintly persons, all the great kings, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are many instances.

Now here it is inquired by the sages, saintly persons, from Sūta Gosvāmī,

brūhi yogeśvare kṛṣṇe

brahmaṇye dharma-varmaṇi

svāṁ kāṣṭhām adhunopete

dharmaḥ kaṁ śaraṇaṁ gataḥ

After the departure of Kṛṣṇa… So long Kṛṣṇa was here, the religious principles were being properly executed. Now, after His departure, who has taken charge of this religious department? This is the question. "Who has taken charge of this religious department?" This is the question by the great sages, saintly persons at the Naimiṣāraṇya. You have heard the name of Naimiṣāraṇya. Then this is the last śloka of the First Chapter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then in the next chapter, Second Chapter, vyāsa uvāca, Vyāsadeva said,

iti sampraśna-saṁhṛṣṭo

viprāṇāṁ raumaharṣaṇiḥ

pratipūjya vacas teṣāṁ

pravaktum upacakrame

Sūta Gosvāmī was very much engladdened that they had questioned about Kṛṣṇa. The question was, "Who has taken charge of the religious system after departure of Kṛṣṇa from this planet?" This is the question. So because the question was about Kṛṣṇa, therefore Sūta Gosvāmī was explaining bhāgavata-dharma in that (indistinct) assembly. He became very much engladdened, "Ah, you have put questions about Kṛṣṇa. Very nice." Because if we simply question about Kṛṣṇa, and hear the answers about Kṛṣṇa, our life (indistinct) life. This is the (indistinct). To become spiritually advanced means, "Just try to question about Kṛṣṇa and try to understand the answers about Kṛṣṇa." Then your life is successful. It is so nice.

So you can make so many questions-intelligent questions must be, of course-about (indistinct), and the answers are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā. So every (indistinct) this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, that not just in this meeting we shall discuss about Kṛṣṇa but at every home, every family, you can sit down together at the end of their work and simply question about Kṛṣṇa and try to understand the answers. The books are already there. Answers are already there. So this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Because people are contaminated by the three qualities. This material world is running on under the influence of three qualities of the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. There are three qualities. [break] Therefore you do not find one kind of living entity, because there are three qualities, and again multiplied three by three, it becomes nine qualities, then again multiplied nine into nine, then it becomes eighty-one qualities. Just like an expert artist, he's using three colors: blue, red and yellow. You mix the colors and he will manifest thousands of colors, thousands of colors. So actually the basic position of this material world is the three qualities: sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now they are mixed up. Here you cannot find out purely sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa is the topmost quality in this material world. But here in the material world also, you cannot find pure sattva-guṇa. When you come to the pure state of sattva-guṇa, that is transcendental stage, spiritual life. Pure sattva-guṇa means there is no more attack by the other two guṇas. That is pure, śuddha-sattva. That is called śuddha-sattva, pure goodness. In that stage one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. First of all one has to come to the goodness quality platform. Then he has to transcend that quality of (indistinct), and that position means no more attacked by the other two lower qualities, namely passion and ignorance. So, sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vāsudeva sarve, that stage is called vāsudeva. Vāsudeva means that Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, appears. That's why Kṛṣṇa's father's name was Vasudeva.

So he was very… Iti sampraśna saṁhṛṣṭo viprāṇāṁ raumaharṣaṇam, Sūta Gosvāmī, he's called Romaharṣaṇa. His father's name was Roma; therefore he's called Romaharṣaṇa. Pratipūjya, when they inquired… Just like we say, "Thank you very much." So pratipūjya, he also offered his respectful obeisances, put very nice proposal, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa question (indistinct). It is very nice. Pratipūjya vacas teṣāṁ pravaktum upacakrame, began to speak, began to answer the question of the sages that "Unto whom the charge of religious principles have been given after the departure of Kṛṣṇa from this planet?" So he's speaking again, nārāyaṇaṁ namaskṛtya [SB 1.2.4]-these are all formalities-"Before speaking anything one should remember the mercy of Nārāyaṇa." Nārāyaṇaṁ namaskṛtya naraṁ caiva narottamam, devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsam. Vyāsadeva is the guru of Vedic knowledge. Therefore Vyāsadeva or his representative, they are… Therefore, according to our system, when you observe the birthday anniversary of spiritual master it is called Vyāsa-pūjā. Actually the worship is going to Vyāsadeva, and his representative is accepting the pūjā. The honor offered to the spiritual master is transferred to Vyāsadeva because Vyāsadeva is the original guru. Therefore it is stated, devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsam. Sarasvatī-devi, knowledge, or the goddess of education, devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsam tato jayam udīrayet. After offering respects to Nārāyaṇa, then Vyāsadeva, Sarasvatī-devi.

So he's answering the question, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham: [SB 1.2.5] "My dear sages, great saintly persons, I'm very much honored that you have inquired so nicely," sādhu. Sādhu means (indistinct), that is the (indistinct). That is called sādhu. So this question about Kṛṣṇa is sādhu because Kṛṣṇa is discussed among the sādhus, not amongst the yogis. And who is a sādhu? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30], he is sādhu. Bhajate mām ānanda-bhāk. Anyone who is purely devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he's sādhu, not anyone else. Sādhu means he's mahātmā. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty-ananya manaso [Bg. 9.13]. He's mahātmā, who is unflinchingly, without any deviation, engaged in the service of the Lord. He's called mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtiṁ āśritāḥ. They are not under the influence of this material qualities, daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. They're under the influence of the spiritual energy. Therefore they're called daivīm. So what is the symptom that one is under the spiritual energy? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, always engaged in the service of the Lord. That is the symptom. Therefore anything about Kṛṣṇa, that is sādhu. One who is questioning, he's also sādhu. One who is answering, he's also sādhu. And what to speak of one who is always engaged in the service of the Lord. He must be a sādhu. Sadhava sarva-bhūtānām. Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām…, sādhavaḥ sādhu-bhūṣaṇāḥ [SB 3.25.21]. Sādhu means he's tolerant. He's tolerant, titikṣavaḥ. At the same time, kāruṇikāḥ, very merciful. Now these persons, because they are sādhus, they are so much tolerant. Anyone who's preaching about God, they're sādhu, because they have to meet so many dangerous people. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He was killed, but he faced… Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was so much (indistinct), he was a Muhammadan, and he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. The Muhammadan magistrate called him, "Why you are chanting this Hindu Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra?" Haridāsa Ṭhākura replied, "Sir, what is the wrong there? Just (indistinct) Hindus they have also become Muhammadans, so suppose I have become a Hindu. So what is the wrong there?" "Oh, you are talking before me? (indistinct) …kill." He was ordered to be killed in twenty-two bazaars, because he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Similarly Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a devotee, and his father chastised him so many ways. So as soon as we become a sādhu, there is some danger to be captured by the asādhu. Just like in our, this movement, there are so many (indistinct). Somebody is preaching that this movement is the hippie movement. The hippie movement is discussed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. Just see the foolish propaganda. In India they manufactured a film, so much propaganda against this movement. We have to meet such enemies. What can be done? This is the nature of this world. As soon as you have become a sādhu, a devotee of the Lord, you create so many enemies-Communists, materialists-but we don't care. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja didn't care, even his father was so (indistinct). Haridāsa Ṭhākura did not care.

So therefore those who are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness… Just like all kinds of impediments. They are (indistinct) sādhus. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Nobody is dearer than him who is preaching," because he has to face so many impediments, so many obstructions. And he has to face (indistinct). Therefore it is said, sādhu, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham: [SB 1.2.5] "Oh, your question is very nice." Sādhu, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam. "We have put this question, but it is loka-maṅgalam." When you discuss this question and answer, it becomes very much auspicious to the whole human society. Loka-maṅgalam. Bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam. Why loka-maṅgalam? Yat-kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno, because it was questions about Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is loka-maṅgalam, auspicious. Anyone who is hear about Kṛṣṇa, how is that simply by hearing [break] …hear. Hearing is also so auspicious. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. If you hear, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ… When Kṛṣṇa sees that you are hearing about Kṛṣṇa, immediately you become pious. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. To hear about Kṛṣṇa, to speak about Kṛṣṇa, to glorify about Kṛṣṇa, they are all pious activities, puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. So if we begin simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa, talking about Kṛṣṇa, then you become pious. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart. He's simply making the opportunity why the (indistinct), the individual souls are trying to approach Him. That is the yoga system. Yoga system means the jīvātmā, the soul, individual soul, tries to understand the Supersoul, Paramātmā. That is yoga system. It is not… It is mistaken idea that the Paramātmā and the ātmā, jīvātmā, is the same. They are same in quality, but Paramātmā is worshipable and jīvātmā is the worshiper. Paramātmā is the predominator and jīvātmā is the predominated. To understand this philosophy, that is yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yad yogi, yoginaḥ paśyanti. That means the seer. The seer is different from the person who is seen. Yad yoginaḥ paśyanti. The yoga system means that when the jīvātmā concentrates his mind, dhyānāvasthita, by meditation…Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā, by the mind, paśyanti taṁ yoginam. This is the position of the Supreme Lord. He can be seen by the yoga practice.

Yoga practice means, first-class yoga practice is bhakti-yoga practice. By bhakti-yoga practice, that is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. There are many yogis. Out of many thousands of such yogis,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatena āntarātmanā

śraddhavān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

He's first-class yogi. He's always seeing Kṛṣṇa within the heart. And he can see, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Prema, if you develop love for Kṛṣṇa, then you'll see Kṛṣṇa within your heart, always, twenty-four hours. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena, when your eyes are smeared with the ointment of love of God. You realize (indistinct), see God. You see God. This morning I have (indistinct), you see God. It is not very, I mean to say, impossible. It is possible by everyone, even by child, what to speak of grown-up. Simply you have to follow the instructions. Just like Kṛṣṇa says how to see Him, how to practice to see Him:

raso 'ham apsu kaunteya

prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ

praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu

śabdaḥ ke pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu

[Bg. 7.8]

Kṛṣṇa says that "If you find difficulty to see Me, then try to see me in the water, or any liquid thing." That's all. In every liquid, the water is there, (indistinct) liquid, there is some water. Now you taste. That is (indistinct). Even the drunkard, they have developed a kind of rasa, a kind of taste in the wine. So Kṛṣṇa says, "All right, when you taste wine, (indistinct) taste Kṛṣṇa, I am (indistinct)." So who cannot see Kṛṣṇa? Everyone can see. Even greatest drunkard can see Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of a devotee. Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. If you are tasting something… It is just like the drunkard, they take wine, "All right, that taste is Kṛṣṇa." To practice this, not to speak of the ordinary man, they're drinking water, but those who are drinking wine… If you think, "Now I am drinking wine, I am tasting, it is very nice taste. This is Kṛṣṇa." Then one (indistinct) a great devotee. So where is the difficulty? To see Kṛṣṇa there is no difficulty. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. That Kṛṣṇa is so nice that every (indistinct) of life, if you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness your life will be sublime. [break] …(indistinct) padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58]. Just like (indistinct) to hear about Kṛṣṇa, that is the only thing.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

[SB 1.2.17]

Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. As soon as you become little sincere to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then everything becomes (indistinct) automatically. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (aside:) Any questions?

Devotee: So any questions? Anyone have a question they can ask?

Guest: (indistinct)

Devotee: He asks that you speak something about new information (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) (end)

730228LE.JKT

Lecture

Jakarta, February 28, 1973

Prabhupāda:

…na tvaṁ neme janādipāḥ

na caiva na bhaviśyāmaḥ

sarve vayam ataḥ param

This verse (I have) partially explained last night. This is very important subject matter. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead… Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore the knowledge is perfect. We are conditioned soul under the rules and regulation of the material nature, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not under the rules and regulation of the material world. That is the difference. Both of us, we are living entities, as I explained. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is also one of us. So far we are living entities, are concerned, we are the same. Just like I explained last night that we are samples of God, but He's complete, He's the whole; we are part and parcel. As part and parcel, there is tendency of being covered by māyā. The example we can cite that the sun and the sunshine… Sunshine means accumulation of shining particles. They are also individual shining material, molecular parts. The cloud can cover the sunshine partial, not all. The sunshine is expanding millions and millions of miles. Out of that, hundred, two hundred miles may be covered by the cloud. So that portion of sunshine is called material world. Just try to understand. The God is just like sun, kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama, and the sunshine, light, is the brahmajyoti. Impersonal brahmajyoti is just like the sunshine, and Paramātmā is just like the sun globe. To understand the Absolute Truth we have to make progress from impersonal Brahman to localized Paramātmā and then, from Paramātmā, to this Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the statement of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

[SB 1.2.11]

The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, when Śukadeva Gosvāmī was explaining that duty of the human being… Duty of the human being is explained that first beginning is dharma. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. Unless we come to the platform of understanding what is dharma, or religion… "Religion" is not the exact translation of the word dharma. Religion is understood in English dictionary as a kind of faith. But dharma does not mean that. Dharma means your characteristic which you cannot change. Just like water… Water is liquid. That is the characteristic of water. It cannot be changed. Stone-hardness is the characteristic of the stone. It cannot be changed. If you say that water has now changed its characteristic, it has become now hard, stonelike, that is not actually the fact. Although water sometimes becomes hard like stone by the influence of atmosphere, it immediately begins to melt. That means it is going to its own characteristic, liquidity. So when we speak of dharma, according to Vedic understanding, dharma means your characteristic which you cannot change. Therefore, in other words, sometimes dharma is explained as sanātana-dharma, sanātana-dharma. Sanātana means eternal. You cannot change it.

So you are eternal, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Second Chapter, text number 12:

na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ

na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ

na ca eva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ

sarve vayam ataḥ param

Kṛṣṇa says that "Both Arjuna, you, Me and all these persons, the soldiers and the kings who are assembled in this Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, don't think that they did not exist in the past nor they will not exist in the future." That means present, you can see. Just like we are sitting together. Present we can see that you are there, I am here. Similarly, in the past also we are existing, and in the future also we shall exist in the same way. As you are individual souls, we are assembled together for understanding something. Similarly, every individual soul is different from one another. We can understand by our present experiment. You are individual soul, I am individual soul. I do not agree with you in every respect, neither you agree with me in every respect. All of us, we have got our individuality. That is our characteristic. That we cannot change. We have got our individuality. We cannot change it. This is our characteristic. And that individuality also meant for giving service. Just like you are all sitting here. Every one of us, we are giving service. Nobody can say… I challenge anybody in this meeting if he can say that he's not serving anybody. No. Everyone is serving. Somebody is serving his family, somebody is serving his boss, somebody is serving his country, his community, his nation-must be serving, must render some service. This is explained by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that the characteristic of individual living entity is to remain eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Kṛṣṇa dāsa. We do not become Kṛṣṇa. This is a false theory. We never become Kṛṣṇa. We cannot become even equal to Kṛṣṇa. Asama. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that God is not only great but nobody is equal to Him. Asama. Asama means not equal. Everybody is below. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmām. That is the statement in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad:

nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām

eka yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān

(Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13)

This is the distinction between God and others. He's also living entity, just… Kṛṣṇa comes just like ordinary human being, and He works also with us, but that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is like us. No. That is a mistake. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. This is stated, that "Those who are mūḍha"-mūḍha means rascal or asses-"they think that I am also equal to them or they're equal to…" Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. They deride, they think "Kṛṣṇa is as good as I am." This term(?), thinking like this, is meant for the asses, mūḍha. Muḍḥa means asses, who has no knowledge. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. "He does not know what is the background of My existence, personality." That is known by the devotees.

So this is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā, and we should try to understand this verse very nicely. Kṛṣṇa says, "I existed." That means Kṛṣṇa existed as the Supreme Lord, not like us. Similarly, we existed also in the past as His servants. That is the explanation of this verse. Because we are eternal servant of God, and that service attitude, being misplaced, we have divided our service spirit in so many ways. Everyone is trying to render service. Big, big leaders, they also want to give some service. So this is our service attitude. It is our eternal attitude. It cannot be changed. Just like faith. Today I am Muslim and tomorrow I may become Hindu. Today I am Christian and tomorrow I may become Muslim. Faith can be changed, but my character is still that I am servant. That cannot be changed. It does not mean… Suppose you are working in office. Now today you are Hindu or tomorrow you become Muslim. Does it mean in the office you be, become master? No. The service is there. Either you change your faith or don't change your faith, your character is still to serve, will continue. That is the reality. That is sanātana. Sanātana means eternal. Try to understand.

So sanātana, this word has been used in three or four places in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta jīva-loka sanātana [Bg. 15.7]. Sanātana. These living entities, they are sanātana. And another place in the Eighth Chapter in Bhagavad-gītā this sanātana word is used: paras tasmāt tu bhāva 'nya 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. There is another sky. Just like we are seeing this sky. This is called material sky, and we are seeing the sky in one universe. We, according to our Vedic information, the sky which you are seeing, this is the sky of one of the universes. And there are millions of universes. We get this information from Vedic literature, Brahma-saṁhitā: yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe and koṭi means millions. So the sky which we're seeing before us, this is one of the sky of the universe. There are millions. And all these universes combined together is one part creation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That we find in the Bhagavad-gītā.

atha vā bahunaitena

kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna

viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam

ekāṁśena sthito jagat

[Bg. 10.42]

"This material world is being maintained by one of My plenary portions. He is known as Paramātmā." Viṣṭabhya aham. "I enter by one of My plenary portions, and this whole material world is maintained in that." This material world is one-fourth manifestation of God's creation, and the spiritual world is three-fourth manifestation of… [break] …which is known as brahmajyoti. There are millions and trillions of Vaikuṇṭha planets. Vaikuṇṭha planets… Vaikuṇṭha, Vaikuṇṭha means vigata-kuṇṭha yasmād. Kuṇṭha means anxiety. Just like within this material world we are full of anxieties. Similarly, when you…, when we go to the spiritual world there is also planet like this, but there is no kuṇṭha, there is no anxieties. Here anyone, up to Brahmā, ā-brahma bhuvanāl lokān punar āvartino 'rjuna, even if you go to the highest planetary system within this universe, still your anxiety will go with you. Your anxiety for what? Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. The anxiety for death, anxiety for birth, anxiety for disease-these are the sum and substance of all our anxieties. Anxiety must be there. Therefore when Prahlāda Mahārāja was asked by his father, "My dear son, what nice things you have learned? Will you kindly explain? You're going to school," Prahlāda Mahārāja said,

tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehināṁ

sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt

hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ

vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta

[SB 7.5.5]

The father was atheist, and the son, by nature-not by nature; he was instructed by Nārada Muni about devotional service, so he became perfect. That was the quarrel between the father and the son. The son was a great devotee and the father was a great atheist. The father did not like that his son should be devotee, and father…, son did not like that his father should remain an atheist. So there was misunderstanding. The son was right, but the father will not change his atheistic view. So anyway, after all, father and son, the relation is very affectionate, filial affection. So father asked that whether his son has changed his views. "My dear son, will you kindly explain what you have learned best." So he said, tat sādhu manye-asura-varya. He's addressing his father, asura-varya. Asura means demon, and varya means the top, varyam, the first-class asura. He did not address his father as "father." Asura-varya: "My dear first-class demon, I think you are asking me what is the best thing. So, in my opinion, everyone is very, very anxious." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dehinām. Dehinām means one who has accepted this material body. He's called dehī. Practically we do not require this material body, but we have accepted this material body for enjoying in this material world. In the spiritual world we can simply remain as servant. We cannot become master. Because in the spiritual world the master is one-Kṛṣṇa, or God-and everyone is servant. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is, that is our real position. Our real position is to serve. Now in the material world we have come here to enjoy, but we are serving. This is called māyā. Actually we are not enjoying; we are serving. Suppose I become president of a certain state. What is my position? My position is to serve the country there. But I am thinking, "Now I am president." Similarly, in family life the head of the family, he's thinking that he's master, but actually he's serving his wife, his children, his servant. So our actual position is servitude. We serve. Either I become president or minister or head of the family, head of the community, society-whatever I may be, my position is servant, but I'm thinking that I have become master. This is called illusion. And sometimes when I become exasperated by becoming such master, false master, I give up this world. I say brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, "This world is false. Now I shall become Brahman, the Supreme Brahman. I shall merge into Brahman." This is… Just like the grapes are sour. The jackal and the orchard… You have knowledge of this story. This jackal wanted to capture the grapes, and when he could not capture, he gives it up: "Oh, the grapes are sour. It is no use." Similarly, first of all we try to become master-master of family, master of society, master of community, master of nation, master of international figure-and when you're baffled, then you give up this world. So-called give up. We cannot give up. But we say brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, "This world is false, and now brahma is satya; therefore I shall become Brahman." You are already Brahman. Why you shall become? You're already Brahman, because you are part and parcel of God. God is Brahman, Parabrahman, and you are Brahman also. Just like your part and parcel of the body, finger, that is of the same material as your whole body, the same blood, same skin, same bone. Similarly, we are already all Brahman. There is no mistake. Actually you want to be situated in His position. He knows that "I'm Brahman." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. So 'ham. So 'ham means "I'm as good as Kṛṣṇa and God." That we know. Simply by our material understanding we cannot realize it. Actually we are Brahman. Therefore this Brahman realization is being explained by Kṛṣṇa. This is Brahman. Brahman means sanātana, eternal. "My dear Arjuna, you also existed, I also existed in the past, because we are Brahman." Otherwise matter does not exist eternally. Any matter, any material thing you take, it does not exist. It has got a beginning and it has got an end, and in the middle there are so many disturbances-six kinds of changes in the matter, ṣaḍ-vikāra. But spirit, soul, Brahman, it has no change. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Avināśi, na hanyate, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. These statements are there.

So this is Brahman realization, that "I have no death. I have no birth." This is Brahman realization. The birth and death is concerned with this body, and I am not this body.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ jauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir

[Bg. 2.13]

Just like I, living entity, I am all existing in this body. I'm changing bodies so many times. I was a baby; I changed that body. I became a boy or a child. Then I became a boy; I changed my body. Then I became a young man; I changed my body. Then I became an old man; I changed my body. All those bodies, different types of body-babyhood, childhood, boyhood, youthhood-they are now gone, and now I'm existing in this old body. So it will also go. But that does not mean that I'll be finished. No. I'll accept another body. As I am changing different types of bodies, I am existing. Similarly, when I shall change this body, I shall exist in another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhīra means those who are sober. He's not bewildered. Adhīra. There are two kinds of men-dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra means senseless, crazy, and dhīra means with sense. He's not bewildered. He's called dhīra. So when somebody dies, one who is dhīra, he understands, "My father, my brother, or my relative, or somebody else, he has simply changed this body." Tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir. "So what is the cause of lamenting?" These things are discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā. But even if you have got affection for that body, still Kṛṣṇa says,

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyino anitya

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

[Bg. 2.14]

"My dear Arjuna, even if you are very much affected when the body of your son or your relative is finished, these things are temporary," āgamāpāyina anitya. This death is also temporary because he'll accept immediately another body. So because we are accustomed to think that "This body is my son," or "my father," "my this, that," there is some pain, causes of pain. But Kṛṣṇa says, "These are temporary." You'll not forever cry for your father, for son. Say one day, two days, three days, that's all. So it is just like temporary seasonal change, āgamāpāyino 'nitya, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. Just like we are feeling now very warm; therefore we require fan. This is due to change of season. Again, sometimes it will come that we have to cover with warm. So the body is the same, the world is the same, but something comes and goes. It makes some changes in the order. So we have to simply tolerate, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. You should not be overwhelmed. This is knowledge.

This human form of life is meant for this knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is teaching. This is brahma-jñāna. This Bhagavad-gītā is actually brahma-jñāna. To make one brahma-bhūta by understanding the Bhagavad-gītā, teachings of Bhagavad-gītā, one realizes that he's Brahman. That is called Brahman. And as soon as one realizes-brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. Now we are jīva-bhūta, jīva-bhūta. We have accepted this body as "I am." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Indonesian," "I'm a Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I'm black," "I'm white." This is bodily. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. One who is in bodily concept of life… Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ. Now everyone is mad after bhauma. Bhauma means the land. Because my body, by accident, my body is produced in certain land, therefore I take this land as worshipable. Now it is going on, nationalism. [break] …bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. (End)

730301LE.JKT

Lecture

Jakarta, March 1, 1973

Prabhupāda: …he was personal friend of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand how much qualified he was. Not only that, he belonged to the royal family. He was a great warrior, great hero, so many qualities. But he said that "I cannot practice this yoga system. It is not possible. I cannot control my mind and practice this haṭha-yoga system." Now just try to understand. He is such a personality, great personality, and five thousand years ago, when things were so nice. So at that time a person like Arjuna felt that he's unable to practice this yoga system. And nowadays a (indistinct) people with teeny knowledge, they are trying to practice yoga system as if they're…, he has become more than Arjuna. It is very difficult subject matter. It is not possible for ordinary man. The first principle is that he has to sit down alone in a sacred place, alone. Yoga practice is not possible in a big city, with friends and smoking habit and drinking habit. This all first. One has to become very strong in controlling the mind, controlling the senses, sitting in a solitary place, sacred place like Himalaya or Hardwar, like that. And who is going there, and who is practicing? It is not possible. Not only that, he has to sit down straight, and not bending, and looking on the tip of the nose, and not closing the eyes completely, half closed-so many rules and regulations-and always thinking of Viṣṇu. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā pra… It is not possible. This yoga system, Arjuna denied five thousand years ago. And what we are? This is going on, all farce.

Here is the yoga system Kṛṣṇa describes, sa ma guhyatamam, most confidential yoga system. What is that? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto: [Bg. 18.65] "Simply always think of Me." Man-manā, mad-bhakta: "You just become My devotee." So this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even I don't like it, think Kṛṣṇa, as soon as the name is chanted immediately I'm forced to think of Kṛṣṇa, immediately. Hare Kṛṣṇa, as I say, immediately I remember Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. Not only that, a devotee thinks of Kṛṣṇa because he develops love for Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa, we must have to think of Kṛṣṇa. Just like we think of our lover, beloved, always, similarly, by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you immediately remember Kṛṣṇa. That is man-manā. And unless I have developed devotional service, then how I can chant Kṛṣṇa? Just like they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I am advising everyone. But we, who others are chanting, they are not chanting because they have no love for Kṛṣṇa. Ah. So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī [Bg. 18.65]. And how it is prac… How it is? By worshiping Kṛṣṇa. Just like we have got our temple, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple, and from morning, four o'clock, to night ten o'clock, we have got business how to worship Kṛṣṇa. This time ārati, this time bhoga, this time chanting, this time reading about Kṛṣṇa, understanding of Kṛṣṇa-whole day and night we have got description. If you come to our temple in the foreign countries, you'll be pleased to see how they are doing.

So these are the processes, confidential, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. It does not require any high education. To think of Kṛṣṇa, any child can do. To chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, any child can do. It is not difficult. And to offer obeisances before the Lord Kṛṣṇa's Deity in the temple, anyone can do. Where is the difficulty? Mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, simply by offering obeisances, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's picture. Let me offer my obeisances." Simple thing. Man-manā bhava mad-bha…, the most confidential. The result? What will be the result? Result is mām evaiṣyasi satyam: "I take it, without any desire to cheat you, satyam, the truth that he'll come back, back to home, back to Godhead." Simply by executing these four principles-always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā, becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, following the devotional process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Viṣṇu means Kṛṣṇa. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Just hear about Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam…

[SB 7.5.23]

Take any one of them or nine of them, His devotee, bhagavad-bhakta. The result will be mām evaiṣyasi satyam, "I don't cheat you." Kṛṣṇa is not cheating anyone. Still He says that "Don't think I am a cheater, satyam. Yes. Truly you'll come back to Me." Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. "And why You are disclosing this confidential knowledge to me?" Priyo 'si me: "You are My very dear friend." Somehow or other you become dear friend of Kṛṣṇa and He's within you. He'll always talk with you, most confidentially, and your life will be successful. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But unfortunately, people are not prepared to accept this simple thing and make his life successful. Still we are canvassing door to door, country to country, that "You accept this process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you'll be happy in your life," not only this life, next life. That is is perfection of life.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Would anyone like to ask a question to His Divine Grace? This is Śrīla Prabhupāda's last public speaking engagement before he goes to India, so it's the only opportunity you'll have to ask any questions if you have any.

Indian man: If someone cannot chant sixteen rounds a day…

Prabhupāda: I never said that sixteen rounds. I say chant. Sixteen rounds is not very difficult. But we say chant. You begin chanting. How many rounds, that doesn't matter. You go on chanting.

Indian man: (indistinct) Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct) is it the proper one?

Prabhupāda: Well, if the translation is all right, it is proper. But there are so many rubbish translations. You see. There are so many rubbish translations. Misinterpretation. That is dangerous. Translation, if there is right translation, it is all right.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. (pause) Any more?

Indian man (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is later on. That is later on. Later on. But in the beginning you simply chant.

Guest (3): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the principles for the initiated disciple, initiated disciple. Those who are very serious, for them.

Guest (3): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Necessarily it is… Just like if you become a policeman, the uniform is necessary.

Guest (3): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not necessary, at the same time necessary. It is not necessary, but at the same time necessary. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730302LE.JKT

Lecture

Jakarta, March 2, 1973

Devotee (1): This is their temple. They sit here and they pray. The priest sits on there platform there, all, and offers prayers. There's a chair on the top, and the god should be sitting there.

Indian man: This is district of (indistinct). They want to construct here also, some kind of (indistinct). (Indonesian music plays for a few minutes) (welcoming speech in Indonesian in the background, being translated into English:)

Indian man: We (indistinct) Indonesia welcome His Holiness to this temple (indistinct). We are very grateful that His Divine Grace has make time to come and see us here. Later, after we pray to God for (indistinct) prayers, welcome, we ask His Divine Grace to give us some message to our Hindus at Indonesia. Before that, we are going to recite Gāyatrī mantra, to pray to God. (group chants mantras followed by chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana)

Prabhupāda: (chants praṇāma mantras) So I shall sing Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava. You can play with me? (sings Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava and chants praṇāma prayers) So somebody translate? Somebody translate my…

Devotee (1): A translator?

Prabhupāda: So Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much. The Gāyatrī mantra, which you have chanted just now, we also chant the same Gāyatrī mantra: oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi. So we have got Gāyatrī mantra general, as well as specific. Just like we have got Gāyatrī mantra for Guru-Gaurāṅga, then Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, that completes the Gāyatrī mantra. So this Gāyatrī mantra is also mentioned in the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is the statement, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, this dhīmahi mantra is in reference to the Gāyatrī. So we have got very intimate relationship. You have uttered the name of Puṇḍarīkākṣam, Nārāyaṇa, these are very known terms in the Bhāgavata pṛṣṭam(?). Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya has mentioned about Nārāyaṇa, nārāyaṇa parā avyaktāt. Nārāyaṇa is the Personality of Godhead beyond this material world. Nārāyaṇa is not the person of this material world. So there is another word which is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā: paras tasmāt tu bhāva anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. There is another nature, bhāva-bhāva means nature-which is beyond this material nature. So we, living entities, we also belong to that spiritual nature. We are also part and parcel of Nārāyaṇa. So some way or other we have come to this material world. Some way or other we have come to this material world, therefore we have got this material body. And because we have got this material body, we are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. So our real problem is that although we are spiritual beings, we have been caught up by material bodies. How to get out of these clutches of birth, death, old age and disease, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So we are preaching the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. So we invite you also to join this movement. You have already the sense of Vedic culture. Now, if you cooperate with us fully, we can develop a very nice cultural movement here also. The problem of birth, death, old age, and disease is for everyone. But, on account of their material association, they do not take this problem very seriously. So one who does not give any importance to these problems, he is no better than animals. The problems of birth, death, old age and disease are there in the animals, as well as in human society. But the animals cannot make a solution. But the human being can make a solution. And to make the solution of these problems, there are the Vedic literatures. [break]

So I think that you ladies and gentlemen here should take very serious account for this movement and join us. I shall invite some of your leading persons to meet me today or tomorrow, because tomorrow I shall be going. And if you are serious, we can preview some plan how we can cooperate. So you have got nice place, combinedly we can develop it into very nice center for spiritual culture. And that cultural movement will be interested by everyone in the world. Even those who were not aware of the Vedic culture, they're also joining and taking part in this movement. So my earnest request is that you should seriously think over the matter and join with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much.

Guest: And we from the Hindu side, Indonesia, we thank His Divine Grace for giving us advice and encouragements. (indistinct) And some of us will try to come to see His Divine Grace to talk about this matter and we will take it further.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's all. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now you play your (indistinct), we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (chanting of mahā-mantra for some minutes) (leads praṇāma prayers) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we can go?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma… [Cc. Ādi 17.21].

Devotee (1): He would like to say something.

Prabhupāda: Acchā.

Guest: (indistinct) five o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Five o'clock. (indistinct) [break]

Devotee (2): …, Prabhupāda. They listened too. I was watching. They were all listening very carefully.

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21].

Devotee (2): You like those gongs?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (2): You like those gongs.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Very nice.

Devotee (1): This type of temple and culture is prominent in that island of Bali. Many, many people. Here there are just a few, in Jakarta.

Prabhupāda: So we have to introduce this here. And if they give place, immediately take it.

Devotee (1): We have it. We'll take. It's very close to the man's house who built this temple, the man who was speaking in Indonesian. He gave us the house. Over a month ago they offered it to us.

Prabhupāda: So then take it.

Devotee (1): Before we were coming every Saturday here to teach their children, just kīrtana and some stories. The children of that man, when I first came there and I was saying Hare Kṛṣṇa, they started saying "Bhīma," "Arjuna," "Yudhiṣṭhira," like this. They know many stories. Of course, many stories are wrongly told, but they have some familiarity with Vedic knowledge, a little. They have paintings also of Kṛṣṇa with the gopīs, stealing their clothes, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna on the chariot. But they don't know how to present Kṛṣṇa as He is in His original form. They make Him more like a man because they don't know. But it's a basis. [break] …nice. Maybe we can do that in some of our temples in India. Playing maṅgala āratika over the loudspeaker.

Devotee (2): Like the Muslims, they chant…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): I remember in Allahabad they used to have some camps that were doing that every morning.

Devotee (3): In Māyāpur they play tapes all day.

Devotee (1): With big speakers like that?

Devotee (3): Yeah. Be heard all around.

Devotee (1): That's very nice. (end)

730519LE.DAL

Arrival

Dallas, May 19, 1973

Prabhupāda: ….five years old. It is a school. He was preaching amongst the class-friends this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You have seen the picture of Prahlāda Mahārāja standing on the table-of course, there was no tables in those days-and speaking to his class-friends about devotional service. The friends of Prahlāda Mahārāja, they objected, that "We are now children. Let us play now. We shall see about God consciousness when we are old enough, or at the time of death we shall see to it." Prahlāda Mahārāja said,

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

[SB 7.6.1]

Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "My dear friends, Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be learned from the very beginning of life, kaumāra." The learning should be beginning between five years old to ten years old, between this time. This Bhāgavata-dharma especially, first thing is, the children from the very beginning of their life should be given instruction on religious principles of life. What are the religious principles? Religious principle means to understand what is God. That is religious principle. It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim or any… There are many hundreds and thousands patterns of religious system, but according to our Bhāgavata school, we accept that religion as first class which teaches how to love God. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That system of religion is first class wherein the followers are given lessons how to love God. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no question of how to teach them for loving God. They deny the existence of God. This is the present situation. People have become so rascal that they do not believe in the existence of God. Or somebody believes… Not believes. That is affirmed. Some of them say, "God is dead. Now we have to take to social work, political work. Let the subject matter of God be set aside." Especially in India. In India, the country where still God consciousness is so strong, the government wants that they should forget about this God business. So this is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means simply for fight on trifling things and forget God.

So anyway, apart from their business, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is especially meant for awakening the dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness of every man. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in everyone. Otherwise how these European, American young men, young girls, children, they are taking part in it? It is not that I have bribed them. Sometimes the Christian missionaries go to our country. They bribe the poorer classes of men, and they become Christians-not by understanding the philosophy or the religion. Because India is poverty-stricken, so if you do some social work, give them some medicine, give them some financial help, they think of, being obliged, and whatever you like, you can tell them. Similarly, in Muhammadan time also, all the Indian Muhammadans, they were not coming from very respectable high family. You know, in India there are four classes of men: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Out of them, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya are considered the topmost class. Now everything has deteriorated. So we find from the history of this conversion, from the śūdra class, lower than the śūdra class, not very many from the higher class. So still, that was based on bribing, giving some social help, political help, financial help. But our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement I started in 1966. I came here with seven dollars and a few books. So it was not possible for me to bribe these educated young boys and girls. That was not possible. But they accepted the philosophy very seriously and gradually it is growing. Now there are many Indians, they are not here, but other than the Indians, they are here. So the thing is I am very glad that you take something very seriously. That is very good. So for the children also, kaumāra ācaret prājñaḥ. Prājñaḥ means one who is intelligent. He should begin learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the child life. That is our basic principle of this Gurukula. We are trying to generate some population fully Kṛṣṇa conscious so that they may preach in future very nicely.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja says, dharmān: "People, children should be taught from the very beginning of their life about dharma, religion." What is that religion? Religion means to accept God as the supreme authority. That's all. The sum and substance. And try to love Him. Just like very, if you have got a very wealthy friend or very learned friend or beautiful friend, you try to love him. You want to make friendship with him. So God means He is the most richest, most powerful, most learned, most beautiful. In this way, there is no comparison of God's opulence. So why should we not be attracted with God? If some rich man in your quarter attracts the attention of the neighbor, neighborers… If God is the richest man… He is not man; He is God. But He looks like man. He… Just like we see Kṛṣṇa here, He has got also two hands and two legs. That is His original form. If He likes, He can expand thousands of hands and thousands of legs, as it was exhibited to Arjuna in His virāṭ-puruṣa form. But the original form is Kṛṣṇa, ādi-puruṣam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta… Although He can expand Himself in many millions of forms, but His original form is Kṛṣṇa.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is directly connecting people with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and especially these children are required to learn this Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning of their life. Because this human form of life is the only chance to understand God. You cannot understand God in any other form, in the form of a dog, in the form of a cat, or even the form of a demigod. Demigods, they are very rich, opulent, so sometimes they forget. Out of very much being affluent, people forget Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the demigods also sometimes forget. And what to speak of the animals. So this human form of life is the only chance to understand God. Therefore if children are not given lesson about God… There is no guarantee that we will live one hundred years. There is no guarantee. Anyone, at any moment, can pass away. Therefore, before the next death comes, one must be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the highest achievement of life.

Thank you very much. (end)

730822LE.LON

Lecture: What is a Guru?

London, August 22, 1973

Prabhupāda:

oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]

śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ

sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rupaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

[When will Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī Prabhupāda, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?]

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda

śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

[I offer my obeisances to Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Prabhu Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Gadādhara, Śrīvāsa and all others in the line of devotion.]

hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare

hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare

[My dear Lord, and the spiritual energy of the Lord, kindly engage me in Your service. I am now embarrassed with this material service. Please engage me in Your service.]

Thank you very much. So, tonight's subject matter for speaking is "What is Guru?"

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, guru, there are many descriptions. Subject matter is the same, but different way, guru has been described by different ācāryas. Their aim is the same, but language or presentation may be little different. So generally guru means,

ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākaya

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

Just like in darkness, ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Ajñāna means ignorance, without knowledge. That is called ajñāna. So ajñāna is compared…, ignorance, stupidity, is compared with darkness. Just like if you are, if this room, immediately, all lights are off, then it becomes dark. We cannot see where I am sitting, where others are sitting. It becomes a confusion. Similarly, in this material world, we are all in the darkness. This material world is called darkness. It is called tamaḥ. Tamaḥ means darkness. Or timir. Timir means darkness. And actually, it is darkness. Because, because this material world is dark, there is need of sunlight, there is need of moonlight, there is need of electricity. (aside:) This child disturbing. But there is another world. We get description from the Vedic literature, na yatra bhāsayate sūryo na śaśaṅko na pāvakaḥ. There is another world, spiritual world, where there is no darkness, and therefore, there is no need of sunlight, there is no need of moonlight, there is no need of electricity.

So guru's business is to bring out the disciples from darkness to light. That is guru's business. That is guru. First business is that because he is suf… Everyone is suffering on account of ignorance. Just like you contaminate some disease out of ignorance. You do not know hygienic principle; you do not know that "This thing will contaminate me. This association will contaminate me. This kind of food will contaminate me." Because we do not know, therefore we contact infections, sometimes suffer from disease. It is very simple to understand. Everyone's… Suppose one commits something criminal due to ignorance, due to ignorance. But in the court, when a man is criminal, in the court, if he says, the criminal, if he says that "I did not know the law," he'll not be excused. Ignorance is no excuse. Similarly, even a child, he does not know, he catches on fire-the fire will burn. No excuse. The fire will not consider that "Here is a child. He does not know. Excuse." No. No excuse. So as there are stringent laws of nature or laws of the state, that because you do not know something, you have committed some wrong, you'll be excused-no, that is no, there is no possibility. You have committed something wrong out of ignorance, you must suffer. This is the law nature's law. You cannot… I have (given) many examples. Suppose you can not eat more. Out of ignorance, if you eat more, then you have to fast two days, three days, suffering, or you'll have some disease. You cannot violate any laws of the nature or any laws of the state anywhere. Wherever there is law, if you break it, then you'll suffer. This is ignorance.

Therefore guru's business is… Every human being is suffering in this material world. Nobody can say that "I am not suffering." It is not possible. There must be suffering. There are three kinds of sufferings. (But) That out of ignorance also, a rascal is suffering, he's saying that "I am very happy." That is also another ignorance. There are three kinds of sufferings in this material world: ādhyātmic, ādhibautic, ādhidaivic. Suffering on account of my own body and mind-this suffering is not imposed by anyone else. I do it. The same thing, that I cannot digest but I eat more, so there must be dysentery. You must suffer. This is due to my body and mind. That is another one kind of suffering. Another suffering is imposed by other living entities. Just like your enemy or an animal-or there are ants, mosquitos, flies, they are all causing suffering. You are killing them, and they are trying to give you suffering. This is called struggle. This is called ādhibautic, suffering given by other living entities. Suffering caused by myself, this is called ādhyātmic. And suffering caused by other living… And there are other sufferings, caused by the nature, superior power, ādhidaivic. All of a sudden, there is no rain, no rainfall, and now for want of rainfall, there is no food grain. Excessive heat, excessive chilly cold; earthquake, famine… So many, by natures, imposed by the natures. Flood. So there are three kinds of sufferings in the material world, and everyone is suffering either by one, two or three or…, but nobody can say that "I am completely free from suffering." That is not possible. And why this suffering? Due to ignorance. I do not know. I am committing sinful life, I am committing mistakes; therefore I am suffering. Therefore guru's business is first to rescue his disciple from ignorance, ignorance. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Everyone is suffering out of ignorance; therefore guru's business is to… Just like we go to a school. We go to a school, we send our children to a school. Why? To save him from suffering; to get education. "If my son does not get education, he'll suffer in the future." The same process: to get him out of ignorance, to get him relieved from the suffering. Therefore, guru's business is ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākaya. So sufferings is due to ignorance. Ignorance is compared with darkness. So in the darkness how you can save one? By some light. So guru's business is to take the torchlight of knowledge and present before the ignorant or the disciple in darkness and that gives him, relieves him from the sufferings of darkness or ignorance. This is guru's business.

Then another verse says,

tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet

samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham

[MU 1.2.12]

It is Vedic injunction. Somebody was asking whether guru is absolutely necessary. Yes, absolutely necessary. That is the Vedic injunction. The Vedas say, tad-vijñānārtham. Tad-vijñāna means spiritual knowledge. Spiritual knowledge; for acquiring spiritual knowledge. Tad-vijñānārtham. Sa-one; gurum eva-eva means must; gurum-to a guru. Must go to guru. Not "a" guru; "the" guru. Guru is one. Because as it is explained by our Revatīnandana Mahārāja, guru is coming from the disciplic succession. What five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva instructed or Kṛṣṇa instructed, the same thing we are also instructing. Therefore there is no difference between instruction. Therefore guru is one. Although hundreds and thousands of ācāryas have come and gone, but the message is one. Therefore guru cannot be two. Real guru will not talk differently. Some guru says that "In my opinion, you should like this," and some guru will say, "In my opinion you'll do this"-they are not guru; they are all rascals. Guru has no "own" opinion. Guru has got only one opinion, the same opinion which was expressed by Kṛṣṇa, Vyāsadeva or Nārada or Arjuna or Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu or the Gosvāmīs. You'll find the same thing. Five thousand years ago, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa spoke Bhagavad-gītā and Vyāsadeva wrote it, recorded it. Vyāsadeva does not say that "It is my opinion." Vyāsadeva writes, śrī bhagavān uvāca: "Whatever writing, it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He's not giving his own opinion. Śrī bhagavān uvāca. Therefore he is guru. He is not misinterpreting the words of Kṛṣṇa. He's giving as it is. Just like a bearer, peon. Somebody has written you letter, the peon has got the letter. It does not mean he has to correct it or edit it or addition or… No. He'll present it. That is his duty. Then he is guru. He's honest. Similarly, guru cannot be two. Mind that. The person may be different, but the message is the same. Therefore guru is one.

The Vedic instruction is, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, "one must." Eva means "must." Abhigacchet, this verb is used when there is the sense of "must." It never says "Go to a guru," but he says "Must approach the guru." Guru is one. Guru cannot be two. Gurum evābhigacchet. And we see also, practically, in the disciplic succession of guru, the same thing is spoken by the guru. Same thing. Repetition of the same subject matter, no other. Kṛṣṇa said that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Just think of Me," man-manā. "Just become devotee of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. "Just worship Me and just offer your obeisances unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. "Just surrender unto Me." You'll find this instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. The same thing was spoken by all the ācāryas. Rāmanujācārya also says the same, Madhvācārya says the same thing, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says same thing, the Gosvāmīs say the same thing, and we are also speaking the same thing. There is no difference. We do not interpret the words of Kṛṣṇa, that "In my opinion, Kurukṣetra means this body." This is rascaldom. The whole situation has been spoiled by these so-called rascal gurus who gives his own opinion. This is our plain declaration: Let any rascal guru come. We can convince him that he is not guru, because he is speaking differently. We can challenge any rascal. Just like somebody came here, he said that he's God, every one of us God. (aside:) Stop this. So I asked that "Just find out in the dictionary what is meaning of God. Let us see whether he is God." The dictionary, as soon as dictionary was consulted, the meaning of God is "the supreme being," meaning of God. So I asked him, "Are you supreme? If you cannot understand, then find out the meaning of supreme." Then when he consulted dictionary, the supreme, it is said "the greatest authority." So I asked him, "Are you the greatest authority?" The rascal could not answer. He does not know even the dictionary meaning, and he's claiming that he's God. This rascaldom is going on, whole world. Big, big rascal swamis, they say, "Why you are finding out God anywhere? You do not see so many rascal gods are loitering in the street?" This is going on. If you simply consult dictionary, you can understand what is the meaning of God. God is so cheap thing, huh? Supreme being. Are you supreme being? Supreme means the highest authority. Highest authority means nobody is equal to him, nobody is greater than him. That is supreme. So these rascals who are claiming to become God, is it a fact that nobody is equal to him, nobody is greater than him? There are so many.

So this kind of guru, this kind of rascal, will not help you. Guru must come from the paramparā system by disciplic succession. Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the supreme God or guru, the present guru also will say the same thing. That is guru. That is bona fide guru. Otherwise, he's not guru. Simple definition. Guru cannot change any word of the predecessor. There is one instance in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. One gentleman, (he) is Vallabha Ācārya. He was very much devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He wrote one comment on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Subodhinī-ṭīkā, it is called. That is recognized, nice ṭīkā, comment. But he approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was very great devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he simply said that "Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Lord Caitanya, if You hear my comment on the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, You'll find it is far better than Śrīdhara Svāmī's." Śrīdhara Svāmī is the very old commentator. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately rejected: "Oh, you are claiming that you have written something better than Śrīdhara Svāmī?" He chastised him. Svāmī means another… He sarcastically remarked, the word svāmī, Śrīdhara Swami, svāmī, another svāmī means "husband." So He said, svāmī jīva nahi mane besa bali guni(?): "I think one who does not recognize svāmī, he's a prostitute." He immediately said. "You do not recognize Śrīdhara Svāmī, then you are a prostitute. How can I hear from a prostitute?" He refused. Only word, that "I have written better than Svāmī." So this is the process of guru. You cannot disobey the previous ācārya or guru. No. You have to repeat the same thing. Not research. Sometimes rascals come, that "You are speaking the same thing. Why don't you speak something new by research work?" We say that we have no intelligence, we cannot make any research. We are… Guru more mūrkha dekhi koriyā vicāra [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a great fool number one." So one who remains a great fool number one before his guru, he is guru. And one who says that "I'm advanced so much that I can speak better than my guru," then he's rascal. This is the process.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha (mahatā)

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

[Bg. 4.2]

Kṛṣṇa said in the Fourth Chapter.

So guru is one. Guru cannot be two. As soon as you find two opinions of guru, either both of them are rascals, or one is still at least rascal. There cannot be two. This is guru. Another place it is said,

tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta

jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam

śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ

brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam

[SB 11.3.21]

Who needs a guru? A third-class, fourth-class man, ordinary man, doesn't require a guru. Guru, to keep a guru or to have a guru is not a fashion. One who is very serious to understand spiritual life, he requires a guru. Otherwise, there is no need of guru. Just like you keep a dog as a fashion, don't keep a guru. Guru means…, is a question of necessity. One must be very serious to understand what is spiritual life, what is God, what is my relation with God, how to act. When we are very much serious about this subject matter, then we require a guru. Don't go to a guru as a matter of fashion. That is useless. That is useless. Therefore śāstra says, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. Because we have to go to guru and surrender there. Without surrendering, you cannot learn anything. If you want to challenge guru, it is not possible. Then you'll learn nothing. Tasmad guruṁ prapadyeta. Praṇipātena. So, just like Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru, he said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "I am now surrendered to you." That is the process. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. To… Guru means Kṛṣṇa's representative, former ācāryas' representative. Kṛṣṇa's… All ācāryas are representative of Kṛṣṇa; therefore guru should be offered the same respect as you offer to God. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. Because guru is bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, or God, so if you surrender to guru, bona fide guru, that means you surrender to God. God is accepting your surrender through the guru. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo. If you surrender to guru, that means Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] surrender. That somebody argues, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I shall surrender." No. You surrender to His representative, then you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is the process.

So guru is the representative of God. Therefore the śāstra says, the authority says, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair. Guru is as good as God. Here, in this Vyāsa-pūjā day, we are teaching or they are doing, offering respect to guru. That means they are learning how to offer respect to God. It is not personal affair; it is required. Because they are trying to be God conscious, they must learn how to offer respect to God or God's representative. That is required. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair. In all the śāstra, Vedic literature, guru is described as good as God. But guru will never say that "I am God." The disciple's duty is to offer respect to guru as he offers respect to God. But guru will never say that "I am… Because my disciples are offering me respect as God, therefore I have become God." As soon as he thinks so, he becomes dog. He is no more God. Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī says… Why guru is offered respect like God? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Guru is offered the same respect as we offer respect to God. Just like in the morning. The other side, ārātrika was going on, offering to Kṛṣṇa, and this side was ārātrika was going on to offer respect to the spiritual master. The same respect. But guru will never say, and he's not that. Guru will never say, "Now I have become God." No. God does not become. God is always God. So God is God and guru is guru. But, as a matter of etiquette, God is the sevya God, worshipable God, and guru is the worshiper God. Just try to understand. Worshipable God and worshiper God. This is. Sevya bhagavān-sevaka bhagavān. Just like guru is addressed: "Prabhupāda." Prabhu means "the Lord" and pāda means "the position." "One who has taken the position of the Lord." The same thing: sākṣād-dharitvena, prabhupāda. These are the terms, one who is serious to study this science of God, they'll learn all these things. So one who is very serious to understand the science of God, for him a guru is required. Don't try to keep a guru as a matter of fashion, that it has become a fashion to accept somebody, some rascal as guru, and say that "I have got my guru." What kind of guru you have got? You are talking nonsense. Ācāryavān puruṣa veda. One who has accepted guru, he'll talk sense, where there is meaning. He'll never talk any nonsense. That is the sign that he has got guru. He has got the sacred thread. Yes, he's accepted by bona fide guru. That is the sign, sacred thread. So you are offering good respect to your spiritual master. That is very nice. You are very thankful. But at the same time we should remember that how to carry out the orders of the guru so that people may not think that you are talking nonsense. You must be very careful.

So in the Bhagavad-gītā also… I am reciting, citing various verses from various śāstras-Kaṭhopaniṣad, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Now here is another verse. Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā, in the Bhagavad-gītā.

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

So you have to learn from guru by three processes. What is that? First process is you must surrender. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. Surrender. You have to find out such an exalted person where you can willingly surrender, "Yes." Therefore it is enjoined in the śāstras, before making a guru, try to study him, whether you can surrender there. Don't accept any guru all of a sudden as fanatic. No, don't do that. That is the injunction. And guru also must study the disciple who wants to become a disciple; must study him, whether he's fit for becoming a disciple. This is the way of making relationship between guru and disciple. Everything is there provided we take them seriously. Then we can train up how to become bona fide disciple, how to find out bona fide guru, how to establish our relationship with guru and act accordingly and make our life successful. Because guru's business is ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā. Guru's business is to enlighten the disciple, because he's in darkness. In another place in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Parābhavaḥ, parābhavaḥ means defeat. Defeat. So whose defeat? Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto: one who is born rascal and fool. Everyone is born rascal and fool. Nobody, otherwise, if you are learned, if you are…, if you know things, then why do you go to a school and college and pass university? It is a fact. Animals. If we do not cultivate knowledge, then we are as good as animals. Now another animal is saying that there is no need of books, and he has become guru. But how you can get knowledge without authoritative studies of books and science and philosophy? But they are trying to avoid this. So imagine what kind of guru and what kind of disciple.

So śāstra says, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto. Abodha-jāto. Everyone is born rascal, fool. He has to be enlightened, he has to be given knowledge, and he has to receive knowledge to make his life perfect. Therefore parābhavaḥ means one who does not make his life perfect, he's being defeated. What is the defeat? Struggle for existence. We are trying to get better life. Here also, in this life also, we are struggling hard for getting better position. So real better position we do not know. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. Here in this material world there is no better position because there is death. You may possess a very good better position, but you'll have to give it up. Either the better position will give up you, or ultimately you have to give up that better position. You cannot stay. Suppose you have earned millions of dollars, millions of pounds: "Now we have got good bank balance." You think, "Now I am in the better position." A little dysentery, or cholera, dysentery-finished, better position. Or the bank fails-that better position gone. So there is no better position in this material world. It is a false. Therefore those who are trying to get better position in this material world, they are simply becoming defeated, because there is no better position. He's a rascal. He's thinking this is better position. What is better position? Then Bhagavad-gītā says the better position is amṛtatva. Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate: "Don't die. Keep your position firm." That is better position. So is there any science to give knowledge how one becomes immortal? Yes, there is. You can become immortal. Not in this material science; not in the so-called universities. But there is knowledge in the Vedic scripture by which you can become immortal. That is better position. No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. So guru's task is very great responsibility. He has to guide the disciple how to make him quite eligible candidate to get the perfect position, immortality, back to home, back to Godhead.

Thank you very much. (end)

730823LE.LON

Lecture

London, August 23, 1973

Prabhupāda: Today's subject matter is "What is Religion?" So we are reciting some verses from the Sixth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, where the subject matter, dharma, is discussed. It is said that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma, it is Sanskrit word, and the English translation, generally, it is made as "religion." Religion is accepted as a kind of faith. But faith may be wrong or right-according to the different time, persons, climate, condition, so many consideration. But Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma, or religion, means the law given by God. Simple formula. As there are laws given by the state, similarly, the supreme state, supreme governor is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God means the supreme being, supreme person. So… Or the supreme authority. Supreme means the greatest authority. As in a state the greatest authority is the government, similarly, throughout the cosmic manifestation, throughout the whole creation, there must be some supreme authority. So that supreme authority is God, and whatever He gives, the rules and regulation, that is called religion. You cannot change it. That the law whimsically, you cannot change. Then you will be punishable. Similarly, the laws or the words (are) of the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. And if you do not follow it, then you'll be punished.

Actually, the Sanskrit word dharma means the constitutional position. We may try to understand what is the meaning of dharma. Just like fire. Fire means there must be heat and light. Without heat and light, there is no meaning of fire. If you say that we have got fire but there is no heat and no light, so what kind of fire it is? So that fire and light of, heat and light of fire is to be understood as dharma. You cannot change it. This is no possibility. Otherwise, there will be no meaning. Water, water is liquid. Any water, any parts of the world, when you take water, it is liquid; therefore this liquidity is the dharma of water. You take anything. Actually, dharma means characteristic-anything you take. Just like I am speaking before this microphone. So if it does not produce the sound, then what kind of microphone it is? The sound production from the microphone is the dharma, is the religion, natural characteristic. So what is the natural characteristic of human being? The natural characteristic is that we serve the superior. That is natural characteristic. Either you become Christian or Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist, nobody can say that "I do not serve any superior." Nobody can say. One must serve. That is dharma. Faith, ritualistic-I am today Hindu; I can accept the ritualistic process tomorrow of the Christian faith; or a Christian may take another ritual-but his business, to serve the superior, that does not change. Either you become Christian or Muslim or Hindu, it doesn't matter. It is not that Hindus, they only serve in the office; the Christian do not. No. The service is there. So actually the service is his dharma, not this rubberstamp, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian." No. That is designation. Actual dharma means the characteristic. If you take sugar, if you taste sugar, it is sweet. The sweetness is the characteristic of sugar. That is dharma. If you take chili, it is very hot. If you take a chili and if it is sweet, you immediately say, "Eh, this is not good chili," because there is no dharma. So dharma means characteristic. Here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that,

veda-praṇihito dharmo

hy adharmas tad-viparyayaḥ

vedo nārāyaṇaḥ sākṣāt

svayambhūr iti śuśruma

Therefore we have to understand dharma from scriptures. Veda, veda means the book of knowledge. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda vido jñānam. Jñāna. So we have to take knowledge from authorized scriptures, authorized lawbook. A big lawyer means who is quite aware of the laws of the state. Similarly, a religious person means who knows completely, at least partially also, the laws of God. That is dharmic. That is dharma. So what is God? You have to understand. Then what does He say? You have to understand, then you can execute actually what is religion. If you do not know what is government, what is the laws of the government, how you can become a good citizen? That is not possible. A good citizen, good citizen means who abide by the laws of the state. Similarly, a religious person means who abides by the order of God. This is dharma.

So this question was raised by the servants of Yamarāja in the matter of Ajāmila Upākhyāna. And the Yamarāja, who's known as Dharmarāja, master of understanding religious principle, so he explained what is dharma. He said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam.

dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam

na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ

na siddha-mukhyā asurā manuṣyāḥ

kuto na vidyādhara-caraṇādayaḥ

[SB 6.3.19]

There are different planetary system, and in each and every planetary system, there are different types of living beings or human beings. As we have got on this planet different parts of the world, different parts of this globe, we have got different types of persons. We are talking of persons only, human being. Other living entities we are not taking into consideration. Because the dharma is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Religious system is there in the human society. Any civilized human society there is a system of religion-it doesn't matter what is that religion. That is civilized human civilization. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. In the human society, in the civilized human society, if there is no conception of God, if there is no conception of God's order or God's law, that is not human society; that is animal society. The cats and dogs or other animals, big, big animals, they have no sense what is the law of God, what is God, how to execute that. That is not expected there. Take, for example, in your country, the law is "Keep to the left" while you drive your car. That is the order of the state. But if you do not obey the state order, instead of driving on the left side, if you drive on the right side, you immediately become a criminal, punishable. But the same right and left consideration, if a dog or a cat or a cow violates, instead of going on the left side, if he passes-he has no fault. He's animal. He's animal. Or a child-if he violates law. If I take anything without your permission, that is called stealing. If I enter your house without your permission, that is trespassing. So these are laws, and it is applicable to the grown-up men, intelligent men, civilized men. It must be. If you want to enter somebody's house, and if you see the signboard, "No admission without permission," you'll never go there, because you are civilized. But a cat and dog will enter. A child will enter. Therefore these laws of dharma or religious system is meant for the civilized human being, not for the uncivilized cats and dogs. No. Therefore when a civilized man, so-called civilized man, has no knowledge of God, no knowledge of the laws of God, it is simply animal society, that's all. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. They are animals. They are not to be considered as human being. This is dharma. This is religion. You cannot violate the laws of God. You cannot disobey the laws of God. You cannot say that "I do not know the laws of God." You must know. Just like a good citizen, you must know what is the law of the state. If you say in the court, "My lord, I did not know this law," that is not excuse. You'll not be excused. As a citizen, good citizen, you are expected. Similarly, we must know what is dharma, what is God. That is humanity.

So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

[Bg. 4.7]

Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that when there is too much disobedience in the matter of law of the Supreme Lord, adharma, adharmasya abhyutthānam… Godlessness, without any knowledge of God, without any knowledge of the God's order, that is called dharmasya glānir, discrepancies in the matter of discharging the order of God. Tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. At that time, God advents or descends. He descends personally, He descends by His representative, by His son, or by His name also. Because they are all identical. God, His representative, His name, His form, His activities, everything in relationship to God, that is also God. This evening we are discussing. Actually this world is also God. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. Viśvam means the whole universal creation. Because it is creation of God-God has created-therefore the whole universe, the whole creation is also God, although it appears different from God. For example, just like the sun and the sunlight or sunshine. Although apparently different-sun is different from the sunshine-still, sunshine is also sun. Without sun, how there can be light in the sunshine? So in broader sense there is nothing but God; everything God. This is explained in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa: ekadeśa sthitasyāgner jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā sarvaiva brahmaṇaḥ śakti, tathedaṁ brahmaṇaḥ śakti. As the fire is placed, is situated in one place, but it is distributing the heat and light, similarly, the Supreme Lord, although He's in His abode, the Goloka Vṛndāvana, still, by His energy, He is all-pervading. All-pervading. Everywhere, there is God. The sunshine…, the sun is ninety millions miles away from us. But as soon as the sunshine is there, we can understand there is sun. So if we are thoughtful, then we can understand what is God and how His energies are acting. That we can understand, exactly like that. As the fire is situated in one place but the heat and light is working, similarly, you can understand the existence of God by the energy of God, the energy, how the energy of God is working, you can understand God. And the energies are acting under certain laws given by God. Just like the sunshine. There is a particular time, at this hour, the sunshine will be visible. At night if you want sunshine, it is not possible. However advanced you may be in science, however scientific machineries you have discovered, but you cannot get sunshine in this night, dark night. No scientist can say, "Now we have discovered a scientific method by which at night also sun will rise." No. That is not possible. Of course, they sometimes say like that, rascallike, but that is not possible. You cannot change the law of God. If you want sunshine, then you have to wait til morning, when by the grace of God, by the order of God, sun will rise: you'll get sunshine. Not by your scientific method.

Similarly, here it is stated, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ [SB 6.3.19]. Ṛṣaya, ṛṣaya means great sages. Ṛṣaya, great sages, great saintly persons or great thoughtful philosophers, even scientists, they cannot create dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād. Sākṣād: directly. Dharma is directly made by God. Not that because one is very great saintly person, great philosopher, great scientist, he can make a kind of religious system. No. That is not possible. That will not be religion. That may be something else, but that is not religion. Religion must be given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād [SB 6.3.19]. Denied here in this verse: na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ. Vidur, vidur means knowing; ṛṣaya, great saintly person. Na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ. Devāḥ means demigods. There are very, very big powerful demigods, just like Indra, Candra, the sun. Sun is also demigod. The sun is distributing the light, that is by the order of God, not independently. Anything you find, they are abiding by the laws of, or by the order of God. The whole total cosmic manifestation which is called material energy, that is also acting by the order of God. Many śāstras, we have to take knowledge from the śāstras. And if you judge from good sense and intelligence, you'll have to admit what is said in the śāstra. Now just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. We are very much astonished to see the activities of the material nature wonderfully working. But we do not know that behind the material nature there is God. Under His direction the material nature is working. That is intelligence. Material nature, matter… Matter cannot act independently. That is not possible. Just like this microphone is a combination of material things-some iron, some other metals. But it has been adjusted, created by some living entity. Not that matter has automatically come into intermingling with this other and become a microphone. That is not possible. Take any machine. It may be very wonderful machine. Just like nowadays the wonderful machine is computer. What is called?

Bhagavān: Computer.

Prabhupāda: So it acts very wonderfully, but there must be a expert man to push the button. Otherwise, it will not act. Without that expert man, this wonderful machine is lump of iron. That's all. It has no value. Take any machine. Similarly, this huge, gigantic machine of cosmic manifestation where innumerable planets are floating in the sky just like cotton swabs, don't think that it is so acting automatically. No. There is direction behind it, or there is brain behind it. And that brain, that big brain, is God. God is also like us, a being, but He is Supreme Being. As we are being, we have got our brain, we have got our creative power, we can do something, we can manufacture something like airplane, sputnik, but God has got big brain. We may float one mechanic airplane in the air, but by the God's brain, millions and trillions of heavy planets are floating in the air. That is God's brain. He has got also brain; He has got also creative power. We have also creative power, but we have got little and He has got supreme power. That is the difference. God means the supreme brain, the supreme powerful, and we are teenies, we are subordinate; therefore our position is to abide by the orders of God. That is actually religion. That's all. Less powerful men serve the more powerful. That is the nature. Nūnaṁ mahatāṁ tatra. Just like human being, they are misusing their brain by eating poor animals. Because human being is stronger he's eating the weaker. So when a human being… [break]

…the fingers are little, little fingers. So on my order the fingers are working, not by the order of finger I am working. Similarly, you cannot bring God in your business. But you must be engaged in God's business. That is religion. That is religion. It is very simple formula. So God is great and we are teeny small living entities. Our only business is to serve God. We are serving, any one of us. That means if you do not serve God, then you have to serve māyā. You cannot be without service. Māyā is another agent of God. Just like if you do not obey the laws of the state as a free man, then you will be pushed into the prison house as a criminal, and you have to abide by the orders. You cannot say, "No, I'll not obey the orders of the state." That is not possible. If you voluntarily do not abide by the orders of the state, then you will be forced to abide by the state in the prison house. Similarly, those who have declared independence, so-called independence-nobody can be independent-that "I do not believe in God, I do not want any type of religion or serving God," such persons will be under the guidance or under the influence or power of the material nature, māyā. Māyā-mohita. Tribhir guṇa-māyāir bhāvair. We are now illusioned by the influence of māyā, material energy, in three ways: by goodness, by passion, and by ignorance. But instead of serving God, we are now serving māyā. And so long we shall be going on serving māyā, or serving in the prison house, we cannot be happy.

So this material world is the prison house of God. Anyone who is living in this prison house, they are all prisoners. It may be demigod, as it is said, deva. Na vai vidur ṛṣayo nāpi devāḥ na siddha-mukhyā asurā manuṣyāḥ. We are human being. There are other beings. They are called asuras. They are very powerful, asuras, but godless. Just like nowadays some portion of the world is occupied by the asuras. They are materially very powerful, but they are asuras because they do not believe in God. Take, for example, Russia. Of course, the mass of people, they are not like that. A fragmental portion of Russian people, they are godless. So you cannot be godless. If you become godless, if you become without religion, if you become without any intentions to abide by the orders of God, then you will be punished. This is nature's law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Every one of us is serving under the order of māyā, illusory energy, material energy, and we are becoming tired, sometimes very much fatigued, every one of us. Nobody is satisfied, cannot be satisfaction. Because in the prison house you cannot expect any comfortable life. That is not possible because it is meant for reformation, and there is punishment, and there is injunction. You have to abide by that. Similarly, in this material world also, all of us, we are prisoners because actually we have disobeyed the orders of God. That is our position.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. We have created so many dharmas or duties, so-called duties, social duty, political duty, humanitarian duty, so many. But we are violating God. So many humanitarians, philanthropists, they are thinking of good welfare for the human being, but they are not thinking any welfare for the poor animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse under some plea. So they are all punishable because every living being is the son of the Supreme Person. Bhagavad-gītā says. We also address the Supreme Being, God, as "Father." Father means every one of us, we are sons. But we are disobedient son. One who is obedient son, he is perfect. One who is disobedient son, he is imperfect. Therefore we have to ask. Father is giving food even to the disobedient son. He is so kind. So God is always kind upon us. But we are suffering because we have forgotten God. This is our position. Therefore God comes, Kṛṣṇa comes, and teaches us Bhagavad-gītā, how to become God conscious, how to become obedient to God. And at last He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].

Now this śaraṇāgati, how to surrender to God, you have to learn. Therefore, as you have to learn something from a superior person, therefore it is recommended that how to learn… It is said, svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ [SB 6.3.20]. In the śāstra it is recommended that twelve great personalities, you have to learn from them what is actually dharma, how to become obedient to the principles laid down by God. So they are described in the śāstra as twelve principle authorities. Who are they? Svayambhū, Lord Brahmā. Nārada, Nārada Muni. Then Śaṁbhu, Lord Śiva. Kumāra, the four Kumāras, Sanat-kumārādi. Kapila, the great sage Kapila. Manu, Manu. The original Manu is the emperor of the universe. That Manu. Then Prahlāda Mahārāja, Hiraṇyakaśipu's son, he is also mahājana. We have to learn how to execute dharma from these great personalities. Prahlādo janako bhīṣmaḥ. King Janaka and Bhīṣma, the grandfather Bhīṣma, and Bali Mahārāja and Vaiyāsaki, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, like that. Just like if you want to learn something, you have to approach some expert in the matter, similarly, if you want to learn what is dharma, how to execute it, then you have to approach such gurus or their representative. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. So you cannot approach anyone else. As they are recommended… Just like government department. If you want to get some information, you have to go to a particular department and you have to learn it, similarly, if you actually want to know what is dharma, then you have to accept the disciplic succession of either of these great twelve personalities. That is dharma. Then it is said,

dvādaśaite vijānīmo

dharmaṁ bhāgavataṁ bhaṭāḥ

guhyaṁ viśuddhaṁ durbodhaṁ

yaṁ jñātvāmṛtam aśnute

The same word, amṛtam. In the modern civilization they do not know what is amṛtam. Amṛtam means immortality. If you execute dharma perfectly under the direction of the authorities, then the result will be that you will get immortal life. Amṛtam aśnute. This very word is used. The matter is guhyam. Dvādaśaite vijānīmaḥ. These twelve personalities will… Yamarāja is speaking to the assistant of Yamarāja, that "All these twelve men, we…" He also included. Yamarāja is also one of the authorities. So he says "We twelve personalities," dvādaśaite vijānīmo dharmaṁ bhāgavataṁ bhaṭāḥ, "we know." And dharmam means bhāgavataṁ dharma. Bhāgavatam means in relationship with God. Because I already explained, dharma means the laws given by God. Therefore dharma's another name is bhāgavataṁ dharmam, means "activities or duties in terms of our relationship with God." That is called dharma. Dharmaṁ bhāgavataṁ bhaṭāḥ. Dharma means bhāgavata-dharma, no other dharma. In relationship with God. We must know "Who is God, what is my relationship with God, how I have to act in that relationship and what is the perfection of life." These things we must know.

Otherwise we are animals. Therefore it is called dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. A person may be materially very qualified, but if he does not know what is God, what is his relationship with God, he has no qualification. That is stated. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Those who are unaware of God and His service, he cannot, one cannot have any good qualification. That is not good qualification. So therefore it is said here that guhyaṁ viśuddhaṁ durbodham, very confidential. The activities of dharma, very guhyam, very confidential. Guhyaṁ viśuddham. Viśuddham means… Dharma does not mean any material activities. Dharma means spiritual activities, viśuddham, pure, pure of the contamination of the material qualities. Guhyam viśuddhaṁ durbodham. Durbodham means very difficult to understand. Anything which is very difficult to understand, if you go to a superior authority, it becomes simplified. Just like you do not know law. Suppose you are in need of some legal protection, but you do not know "Under which legal protection I will be safe." You have to approach a good lawyer. You cannot say that "I'll defend myself. I will do." No, that is not possible. When you are diseased, you have to consult the physician. Therefore if you want to know what is dharma, then you have to approach these twelve great personalities. Otherwise it will remain durbodham, very difficult to understand. Although it is very pure, because I am impure, I will not be able to understand. Guhyaṁ visuddhaṁ dur…, yaṁ jñātvā amṛtam aśnute.

And if you are fortunate enough to understand what is religion, then you become immortal; next life is immortal life. This is the purpose of dharma. We should not be satisfied that "I have got a dharma made by somebody, my some relative or somebody else." That is not dharma. Dharma means to understand God. It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim. It doesn't matter. If you think that by your principle, you have understood God and you have learned how to love God, and you have learned how to obey God, that dharma is perfect. That religious system is perfect. It may go on under any name, it doesn't matter. But if you have achieved the result, that is wanted. Just like if you pass your M.A. examination. It doesn't matter whether you pass it from London University or Calcutta University or Berlin University. You have passed your examination. That will be taken into consideration. So similarly, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That system of religion is perfect by which one can learn what is God and how to love God. That is perfect. But you are following very nicely dharma, your so-called dharma, but you have no knowledge of God, no love for God-it is simply wasting time. It is simply wasting time. Therefore dharma means to understand God and to abide by His order. To learn this scientific method, one has to approach…

etāvān eva loke 'smin

puṁsāṁ dharmaḥ paraḥ smṛtaḥ

bhakti-yogo bhagavati

tan-nāma-grahaṇādibhiḥ

So dharma means first-class dharma which teaches the followers how to know God, how to love Him. That is first-class religion. So etāvān eva loke 'smin puṁsāṁ dharmaḥ paraḥ smṛtaḥ. Paraḥ means superior, not inferior. Or transcendental. So what is that? Bhakti-yogo bhagavati. Bhakti-yoga. This bhakti-yoga, devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is dharma. Bhakti-yogo bhagavati tan-nāma grahaṇādibhiḥ. And it begins by chanting the holy name of God. This is dharma. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is preaching the saṅkīrtana movement just to make the whole world to know God and how to love God. Thank you very much. (end)

730826LE.LON

Lecture

London, August 26, 1973

(maṅgalācaraṇa prayers. Prabhupāda says, "Nobody sit backing the Deity," in the middle of prayers)

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here and participating with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So you have already some understanding about this movement. Still, as you have kindly come here, I shall try to explain what is this movement. This movement means that to awaken the original consciousness of the living entity. Living being or living entity, there are varieties, 8,400,000 varieties. There are nine hundred thousand varieties in the water, and two million varieties as trees and plants. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. And then insects, reptiles, there are eleven hundred thousand varieties. Then there are one million varieties of birds. Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam. Then beasts, three million. Three million varieties of animals, beasts, four-legged beasts, and then there are four hundred thousand forms of the human being, out of which the civilized men, they are taken into consideration. All other varieties, they are in the lower grade of life. They cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not possible. It is in the human form of body when the consciousness is developed. In the tree also, there is consciousness. It is now scientifically proved. When you cut tree or take its leaves, it feels, and that is recorded in the machine. This machine was discovered by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, a great physicist in Calcutta. So everyone has got consciousness, there is no doubt about it. But the developed consciousness is found in the human being. And the topmost development of consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we are appealing to the people in general all over the world that "Now you have got developed consciousness than the lower animals, birds, trees, beasts. Now you develop further so that you can awaken your original consciousness, which is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then your life is successful." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

You have got already consciousness. Just like a child, a boy has got consciousness. He's sent to a school, colleges. He develops his consciousness. He can understand scientific truths. And then he becomes a very big man, or successful man. As there are such consideration in the material world, similarly, the development of highest consciousness is spiritual consciousness. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Spiritual consciousness should be cultivated, first of all understanding that we are all spiritual being; we are not this material body. That we have to first of all understand. The, within this material body there is the spirit soul, and that spirit soul, out of ignorance it is desiring material sense gratification; therefore he has to transmigrate into different types of bodies. And as soon as we accept one material body-it doesn't matter whether it is king's body or dog's body; it doesn't matter-because the spirit soul has accepted this material body, he has to undergo the threefold miserable conditions of material existence. This is the problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises that mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. Our material understanding of pains and pleasure (is) on account of this body. When the body feels cold, we cover. When the body feels very warm, we uncover. The covering and uncovering is due to seasonal changes. Therefore this material world means changing always. It is called jagat. Jagat means always changing. On account of the material world's changing, we feel pains and pleasure on this material body. Kṛṣṇa advises, therefore, that mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. The material pains and pleasures, they are on account of this body. But we are not this body; we are spirit soul. Our main business is how to elevate the soul to its original position of eternity. That is our problem.

These things are very nicely explained in the book known as Bhagavad-gītā. We are presenting this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and we hold our class also in this hall daily in the morning. So we invite all ladies and gentlemen to come here and try to understand Bhagavad-gītā. We have got this opportunity of human form of life. We can understand what I am, what you are. We are not this body; we are spirit soul. As spirit soul we are all eternal, blissful, and cognizant. But on account of this material covering we are suffering the material conditions, threefold kinds of miserable life. It is very difficult, little, but this is the problem. We have to understand this; otherwise, we are missing the opportunity of this human life. If we neglect, then we are just like animals. The animals have no concern to understand this philosophy of life, that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am encaged. Somehow or other I have to get out of this entanglement and be again reinstalled in my original consciousness and be happy, having eternal life, blissful life and full of knowledge." This is the problem. But people have become so dull and rascal that they do not even care to understand this philosophy of life, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." Actually, even one's daily life, one can understand that he is different from this body. Just like every one of us, we had a child's body, a boy's body, a youth's body. Now I am old man, but I can remember that I had a body, a small body, baby's body. I remember personally when I was six months old I was lying down on my eldest(?) sister's lap. She was knitting. I still remember. So then I got another body, another body, another body, and according to development of body I had different consciousness, just like child's consciousness is different from the father's consciousness. So we are actually getting different types of body every moment, and the consciousness is changed also according to the body. This is a fact. But I remember that I had such and such body, I was doing such foolish things when I was a child. All these things I remember. Therefore I, the person, the soul, is existing, although the bodies are not existing. This is a fact. Those bodies, my childhood body, my boyhood body, my youthhood body, they are no longer existing. It is a fact. I have got now a different body, but I remember that I possessed such and such bodies. Therefore the conclusion is that, in spite of change of body, the spirit soul remains the same eternally. Similarly, when I shall change this body, I shall get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. That is called transmigration of the soul.

But unfortunately there is no education on this spiritual knowledge in any school, college, although there are books. They can read, they can understand the constitutional position of the soul. But there is no arrangement. Perhaps this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only institution which is teaching people that he is not this body; he's spirit soul-he's different from body and he's transmigrating from one body to another, birth and death. Actually, the spirit soul has no birth and death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The spirit soul is eternal. It does not take birth or it dies. The body is changing. The change of the body is known as birth and death. We are eternal; therefore nobody wants to die, because he is eternal by constitution. He doesn't like to change, but he's forced to change by some power. That is understanding, that "I do not wish to die. What is that force that obliges me to accept death? I do not wish to become old man, but there is a power which is forcing me to accept old age." This is the problem. Unfortunately we have given up the real problem of life. We are very much embarrassed with the temporary existence of this body, say for some years, fifty years or hundred years. But as we are eternal, we are not taking care of the eternal soul, what is its need. But when a person is developed, his spiritual consciousness automatically develops. At that time, he is no more satisfied with the comforts of the material body. In the Western country, that feeling is now very prominent because there are so many confused, frustrated young men who are known as hippies. They are not satisfied with the ways of life as their fathers and grandfathers are living. They are protesting rather. That means there is spiritual starvation. Therefore we see also as soon as some swami or yogi comes from India, they flock together. They go there to receive some message, because the hankering is already there. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now you should take advantage of this hankering and the movement (of) Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is for your profit. You want something spiritual, and here is the spiritual movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply you have to study this movement very carefully and with intelligence. Then you'll understand that this is the thing we are hankering after. This is the position.

So we are opening centers all over the world. In America we have got about fifty centers, and in your Europe we have got about half a dozen or more than, dozen centers, including France, Germany, Amsterdam, England, and Ireland, Scotland. So this is a new center opened by us. This house has been very kindly given to us by George Harrison. He is a nice boy. He is taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have got good facilities now to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So we shall simply request you to take advantage of this center. We are not charging anything. You haven't got to pay anything. If you come in the morning and take part with us, we hold class. We are engaged twenty-four hours in this temple, but especially we hold class in the morning from seven to eight, and other classes, ārātrika also. We perform six times ārātrika, bhoga. We have got twenty-four hours engagement. So at any time you can come. We have got books. Our program is for publishing sixty books. Now we have already published about twenty books, big, big books, four hundred pages. So if you understand, if you want to understand this movement through philosophy, science, and good logic, argument, we have got sufficient stock to convince you how this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is important. But suppose you are not interested in reading or you cannot read, cannot understand philosophy, we have got a very simple method: chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

So either you become a scholar or you become an ordinary man, you can take advantage of this movement, and there is no need of qualifying yourself. We don't say that first of all you qualify yourself, then come here. No. Any condition, even a child can take part. If you come here, you'll see. When kīrtana goes on, even small children, they also take part. It is so nice movement. And by taking part in this movement, automatically you feel some ecstasy, spiritual ecstasy. Then you begin to dance. We don't ask you to dance, but the chanter automatically dances. These are the spiritual significance of this movement, and anyone is invited. There is no restriction for any caste, creed and color. Because God is one, and everyone, according to our philosophy, every living entity… There are, as I have already explained, 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, said that "I am the seed-giving father of all the living entities." So we have no discrimination between even man or animal. Animals are also accepted as the sons of the Supreme. But they are differently dressed. We are simply changing dress. On account of changing dress, we think that we are dying and taking birth. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Just this verse we were discussing this morning. So all living entities are sons of God, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore those who are advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are called paṇḍita, learned. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. A paṇḍita sees equally everyone.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

That is paṇḍita-when we can see. That is actually spiritual existence.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

A devotee acquires all these qualification. He acquires… First qualification: he understands that he is not this material body, but he's spirit soul. That is first understanding. Brahma-bhūtaḥ. And the symptoms of that condition of life, that "I am not this material body. I am spirit soul," na śocati na kāṅkṣati. At… In that position, for material gain and loss he's not interested. It is not that a brahma-bhūtaḥ, a spiritually realized person, if he all of a sudden… That we have got all of a sudden this nice house. It is 220,000-pound-worth. We do not expect to get such a nice house or such money. But sometimes it comes, actually. We are maintaining such hundred centers. But they have been given by the public. Kṛṣṇa sends. So because we have got such nice house, not that we have got this house… Of course, we are very much pleased because we are now able to accommodate Kṛṣṇa here, install the Deity and conduct the temple worship. That way we are happy. But not from material point of view: "Now we have got nice house." No. We can lie down on the street. So na kāṅkṣati. But Kṛṣṇa sends for the facility of our business. Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities, that's a fact. Although we did not endeavor for constructing this house or so many other houses, but Kṛṣṇa sends us money, Kṛṣṇa sends us the means how to have nice house, how to accommodate the devotees nicely, how to have nice cars also, nice food, everything. There is no scarcity. Don't think that Kṛṣṇa conscious people… We have no business. We are not professional men. Still, we are living better than any ordinary man. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Kṛṣṇa says, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ [Bg. 10.10], yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. He knows, just like a father knows the innocent child's needs. A small child, innocent child, simply dependent on the father or mother. The father, mother knows what this child requires now for his comfort. So father, mother supplies.

So if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, because He's the supreme father, fully, then all your needs… He's already supplying you all the needs of your life. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is the distinction between God and ordinary being. There are… God is also a living being like you and me. He's also a person, as you are person, I am person. But the difference is that one person is providing all the necessities of unlimited persons. And we unlimited persons, we are dependent on God. This is our philosophy. Another philosophy is that everything belongs to God; nothing belongs to us. That's a fact. Therefore as sons of God, everyone has got the right to use father's property. But he should not take more than he needs. That is our philosophy. If one takes more than what he needs, then he becomes a criminal. So similarly, we can live very comfortably on this planet, because this planet belongs to God. We should not designate ourself as "Englishman," as "American," as "Indian," as "African," and fight amongst themselves. We should always know that we are all sons of God. The property is God's. We can use whatever we need by the grace of God-the supply is there; there is no question of scarcity-and thus save your time, be peaceful, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Thank you very much. [break]

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Suppose you are eating. You can eat what you can digest. That you know yourself how much you can eat. But if after eating you take bunch of food for stocking at home, that is not allowed. You eat as much as you like. So your needs you can know. You haven't got to take instruction what is your need.

Guest: That is one aspect, but food is only one commodity. The world is very worried about far more than one commodity at the moment. What about all these needs of materials, of raw materials…? These are far more important than food.

Devotee: He says that food is only one need of the living being, but there are many other needs in today's society.

Prabhupāda: No. You have got only four needs. You want food, you want shelter, you want sense gratification, and you want defense. That's all. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithun. These needs are there even in the animals. They also eat, they also sleep, they have also sex life, and they also defend in their own way. So you need these four things. So you can arrange for these four things, but not extraordinarily. People are increasing their needs artificially; therefore they are in trouble. And as soon as there is accumulation of more things… If you accumulate more than your need, I also imitate to accumulate more than my need, there is competition. That competition is going on. And that is the cause of war. Those who are aware of the history, the two big wars in your Europe was started by German people because they are very much envious of the English people. The Germans, they could not do business throughout the whole British Empire. We know, Indians. So they are very much envious of these British people, and therefore they started two big wars, world war. So if we collect more… Now the British Empire is finished. So if we collect more, if you want to acquire more, then other becomes jealous. And in this way, our jealousies increase, and that is the cause of war, that is the cause of fight. But if you are satisfied with your minimum or maximum needs, nobody will be jealous. Just like an elephant is eating forty kilos of foodstuff at a time. We cannot eat even one-fourth kilo, but we are not envious of the elephant because we know he needs to eat so much. Neither the elephant is envious to us. So whatever you need you can collect, you can eat-but don't take more. Then according to the God's law, you become criminal, you are punishable. That is God's law. [break] It is a common sense. You eat; I eat. It is a common philosophy. So I must eat what I need and you must eat what you need. That's not a very big philosophical problem. Everyone knows what you eat. But don't eat more. Suppose I can eat so much. And if I eat more, then I get indigestion. That is the punishment of the laws of nature. I get dysentery. Then I'll have to starve for three days because I've eaten more. So yuktāhāra-vihārasya yoga bhavati siddhitaḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said if you want to be a yogi or spiritualist, you should not take more than what you can digest, what can you eat. Yuktāhāra. You can satisfy your hunger, but according to yogic principle. Or from health point of view, even if you can eat so much, you can understand that "I can eat so much," you should not eat the whole thing. You should eat half. And one fourth you shall fill up with water, and one fourth you should leave vacant so that there may be ventilation, your digestion will be easily done. This is Āyurvedic law. Even if you think that you can eat so much, you should not voluntarily eat so much. You should eat half, and one-fourth you should fill up with water, and one-fourth you keep vacant for air ventilation. Then there will be no disease. It is hygienic principle. And as soon as you eat more than what you can digest, you become diseased. That means you are punished. Similarly, in every action you can have your portion as you need, but don't take more. Then it is helpful to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yuktāhāra vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi.

Devotee: The gentleman asks, "How do we apply that internationally?"

Prabhupāda: It is a international society. We are picking up men of this mentality, not that the whole world will be followers. That we do not expect. But there are men all over the world who like this movement; therefore we say international society. And actually it is happening. We are picking up our devotees from all parts of the world, so therefore it is international.

Guest: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730907LE.STO

Lecture at Upsala University Faculty

Stockholm, September 7, 1973

Prabhupāda: So I shall try to discuss Bhagavad-gītā, Thirteenth Chapter, in which nature, the enjoyer, and consciousness is described. Śrī arjuna uvāca. Arjuna belonged to the royal family of the Pāṇḍavas, and he was friend of Kṛṣṇa. So there was a fight between two groups of cousin-brothers, the Kauravas and the Pāṇḍavas. So Arjuna… Kṛṣṇa was requested by both the parties to join either of them, but Kṛṣṇa decided not to take part in the fighting because both of them were equally related to Him. So after all, Kṛṣṇa divided His soldiers one side and Himself another side with the condition that if He joins, then He would not fight. So Arjuna preferred to take Kṛṣṇa on his side, and the other party, Duryodhana, he decided to take Kṛṣṇa's soldiers. So while just the fighting was to begin, Arjuna declined to fight because the other party were all his relatives, friends, brothers, brother's son, nephew, teacher and grandfather. So Arjuna took compassion, that "I don't want victory. Better not to fight." So that is the cause of describing the science of Bhagavad-gītā before Arjuna, just to induce him to act as a dutiful soldier. This is the background of Bhagavad-gītā.

So there were many questions and answers. There are seven hundred verses. So we shall discuss this evening about the nature, the enjoyer, and the consciousness.

śrī arjuna uvāca

prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva

kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jñam eva ca

etad veditum icchāmi

jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ ca keśava

Those who have got this copy, it is page 619. Arjuna wanted to know prakṛti, the nature, the material nature, and puruṣam. Puruṣam means the enjoyer, the living entities. Here in this material world every living entity is trying to enjoy this material nature. Prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva kṣetram. Kṣetram means field of activity, and kṣetra-jñam means the knower of the field. Just like an agricultural field, the field is there and the cultivator is there. The cultivator knows that "It is my field of activity." So he's to be supposed as kṣetra-jñam, one who knows about his field of activities. Etad veditum icchāmi. Because Kṛṣṇa has been accepted as the teacher. First of all, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna were talking as friends. But when Arjuna saw it that friendly talking will not make any solution of the problem, so at that time, he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and that "I become Your disciple," śiṣyas te 'ham śādhi māṁ (tvāṁ) prapannam, "and I surrender unto You." That is the relationship between teacher and the student. The student must receive knowledge submissively, not by challenge. Therefore, one has to select a teacher where one can submit. That is the process. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Teacher must be approached with submission. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. Praṇipāt means submission; and paripraśnena, then question; and sevayā, and service also. These three things are the basic principle of receiving knowledge. So submission means I must approach somebody who is actually in better position or higher position. Otherwise, what is the use of approaching? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. And sevā means service. You cannot challenge. You approach such person whose instruction you shall receive. You can inquire submissively, but you cannot challenge. That is not allowed in Vedic system. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore before selecting a teacher, you must decide whether you can submit there. If you cannot submit there, don't approach, don't waste time. So that is the process. And Arjuna submitted to Arjuna, uh, Kṛṣṇa.

So there are many questions. Here is another question: "Kṛṣṇa, I want to know this material nature and the living entities who are trying to enjoy the resources of this material nature." This whole world, every living entity, even birds and beasts, they are also trying to lord it over the material nature, what to speak of human being. They are trying to overcome the stringent laws of material nature by so many scientific improvements, but still, they are under material nature. That is the conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. This material nature is called māyā, energy. Actually, it is the energy, energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. From Vedic literature, we get information: God has got many potencies or energies.

parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate

svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca

na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate

na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate

[Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]

These are the Vedic information. God means na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. He has nothing to do; He has simply to desire. I think in your Christian Bible also it is said, "God said 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation." He has to simply desire. Other things will be done by His energies. Just like big man, a king or president, his simply sanction order-"This must be done"-the things will be done by the subordinates, by… He has go so many energies, secretaries. So why not for God, the Supreme Being, God? So therefore the Vedic instruction is, God has nothing to do, practically. Simply His desire is sufficient. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. There is nobody equal to Him or above Him. Everyone must be below, subordinate. That is Vedic instruction. And that has been selected or that has been concluded, who is that Supreme Being. That we also get from Vedic information. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]: that Supreme Being means Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa, the word, means "all-attractive." It is not that God is attractive for the Hindus or God is attractive for the Muslims or the Christians. No. If He is God at all, then He must be attractive for all. That is the meaning of the word Kṛṣṇa, "all-attractive." So that is very nice word. Actually, God has no name, but we call Him by different holy names according to His activity. Just like we believe that God is great. So this is fact. The Vedic instruction is also there, na tasya samaś cābhkyadhikaś ca dṛśyate: "Nobody is equal, nobody is greater than Him." Therefore God is great. Now who is that great? That is decided: īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Īśvaraḥ means controller. That is the exact equivalent for the word God. God means controller, supreme controller. So that supreme controller means He has nobody else to control Him. Here, in this material world or anywhere, we find one controller, he is controlling, but he is also being controlled. He is not absolute controller. Here we find some, say, a president, he's controlling the state, but he's also being controlled by popular votes. If the popular votes are against him, he cannot control any more. So here, you just analyze anyone; he may be controller, but at the same time he is controlled. Not that absolute controller. Nobody you can find. So if in this way you go on searching out where a person is not only controlled, controller, but He is not controlled by anyone, that is God. This is the simple definition of God. God controls everyone or everything, but He is not controlled by anyone. That is God. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1].

And He has got form; He's a person. He's not imperson. Because as soon as you speak of controller, it cannot be impersonal. Controller must be a person. He must have brain, He must have desire, He must have capacity to give orders. So many things. So therefore the Vedic information is the Supreme Absolute Truth is a person. He's not impersonal. The impersonal realization of God is realization of His different potencies. Just like this material world, this is the manifestation of one of the potencies of God. He has got many potencies. So all the many potencies have been grouped into three: the material potency, the spiritual potency, then the marginal potency, between the material and spiritual. The spiritual potency we can understand. Just like I am speaking. I am speaking means I am spiritual being. I am speaking. This material body is my covering, just like shirt and coat. So the… Now I'm existing. Somehow or other, I've been encaged in this material body, but I am spirit soul. That is spiritual potency. And as this material world is made of material ingredients, similarly, there is another world. That information you can get from Bhagavad-gītā. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. There is another nature, another manifestation of nature. That is spiritual. What is the distinction? The distinction is when this material world will be annihilated, that will remain. Just like I am spirit soul. When this body is annihilated, I am not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After the destruction of this body, the soul is not destroyed. Soul remains there in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. So that mind, intelligence and ego, that carries him to another gross body. That is called transmigration of the soul. This gross body, this body, even in our experience during this lifetime, we have experienced so many gross bodies came and went away. Just like I was a child, so I possessed one gross body, child's body. That came and gone away. I had a boy's body; that came and gone away. A young man's body I had, but that came and gone away. Similarly, this body, old man's body, it has come, and it will also go. So as in spite of so many other bodies came and went, similarly, when this body will no longer exist, I'll transfer myself or transmigrate into another gross body. This is called transmigration of the soul.

So Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa it is said that He is the supreme controller and He has got His form, His body, which is not made of these material ingredients. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Vigrahaḥ means body. So He has got body. But what kind of body? Sac-cid-ānanda. It is, the ingredients are spiritual, not material. Here, the ingredients, gross body I have got, you have got-earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence, ego-these ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa's body, the ingredients are sac-cid-ānanda. Sat means eternity, cit means knowledge, and ānanda means blissfulness. That is His body, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. But He has got a body. He has got a form, transcendental form, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Anādiḥ, anādiḥ means, because nobody is controller above Him; therefore He is the supreme controller; He has no beginning. Anādi, ādiḥ: and He is the beginning of everything. Anādir ādir govindaḥ-His name is Govinda. Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, there are many names. There are millions of names of God. We are just mentioning one or two. So anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam: the cause of all causes. Everything has got cause and effect. So therefore Arjuna has decided to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Being. And He has no material body; therefore His knowledge, whatever knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. Anyone who is giving knowledge in this material body, he has got four defects. The first defect is that a person in the material body must commit mistake. Must commit, less or more. And the…, anyone who possessing this material body, he must be illusioned. Illusioned means that accepting something for something. Just like we are accepting this body as self. But this is illusion. I'm not this body. I am spiritual spark, part and parcel of God. That is my position. But anyone identifying himself, he thinks that he's this body… Especially the animals. The animals have no knowledge that he's different from the body. Therefore a human being, if he's under the impression that he is this body, he's no better than the animal. Therefore in the human form of life, one can understand his real identity, he can understand what is God, he can understand what is his relationship with God and act accordingly. If he does so, then his human life is perfect. Otherwise, he remains like animal, and he gets no benefit by this nature's gift, human form of life. By evolutionary process, we come to the human form of life. By evolutionary process, we come to the human form of life, passing through 8,400,000, about 8,300,000 species of life. Then we come to this form of life, civilized human being. So this should not be misused in the business of cats and dogs. This should be used for better purposes. This better purpose is to understand oneself, what he is actually, whether he is this body, whether he is this mind, or whether he's different from body and mind, a spiritual spark. That is real knowledge.

So Kṛṣṇa is delivering this knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Arjuna is receiving. The beginning of His instruction was that,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

Kṛṣṇa first began this lesson: "My dear Arjuna, you are not this body. Why you are lamenting about this body? You are not this body. Neither your so-called relatives, they are this body. They are different." Asmin dehe. In this body there is the proprietor of the body, the dehī. Just like you are the coat and shirt, you are the proprietor of the coat and shirt. Similarly, this body is also covering. The subtle body and the gross body-coat and shirt. But we are different from this coat and shirt. That is the beginning of the instruction. It is going on, and again Arjuna is asking that prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jñam eva ca etad veditum icchāmi. He's student. "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, I want to understand what is this material nature and puruṣam." Purusaṁ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. Just like we have got little conception, male and female. So prakṛti means the female, the object of enjoyment, and puruṣa means the enjoyer. So here, although we are dressed in different way, male or female, everyone is trying to enjoy. Therefore even a woman is just like woman, his feature is woman's body. Actually, she is trying to enjoy; therefore, she is puruṣa. Puruṣa means enjoyer. So here in this material world, either male or female, it doesn't matter-everyone is trying to enjoy; therefore he is called puruṣa, or the living entity is called puruṣa.

So Arjuna's inquiry is "What is this prakṛti?" Everyone is trying to… Now, yesterday we had lectured in the university, technology. One technologist questioned me. That technology means the process by which we can enjoy this material world. That is technology. So the spirit is how to enjoy. So prakṛtim puruṣaṁ caiva, and kṣetram. Kṣetram means the field of activities. Although everyone is trying to enjoy, but he cannot enjoy according to his whims. He is limited with the body. A man is trying to enjoy and a cat and dog is also trying to enjoy. But the enjoyment of the cats and dogs are different from the man's enjoyment because on account of different body. The facility of enjoyment has been given by nature according to different body. Therefore we find intelligent man and less intelligent man; cats and dogs and human being and different types of men, different types of plants, different types of animals-varieties, 8,400,000's. The nature is so acute. As you try to enjoy this material world, he'll give you a suitable type of body. Just like a pig. A pig means he has no discrimination of food. He can eat even stool. So similarly, persons who have no discrimination what kind of food we should eat, so he is given the next change to become a pig so that there will be no discrimination. And he has got a particular type of body, a particular type of mouth so that he can enjoy any abominable things. A tiger, a tiger wants to suck fresh blood, so nature has given a suitable type of body with jaws and nails so that he can immediately attack an animal and suck the blood. So in this way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. We are trying to enjoy, but we have got different desires of enjoyment. So every particular thing is taken into account by the laws of nature. And the next life, because if I try for something, I am absorbed in that thought, and at the time of my death, when I leave this gross body, my mental condition is there, and that mental condition carries me to a suitable position where I get a suitable body to fulfill the mental desires. This is the process of transmigration. So our process is… This is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti devā-vratāḥ devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

There are many who worship demigods. So they will go to the planet where demigods reside. There are innumerable planets. This, according to Vedic literature, this moon planet is also a place where demigods reside. The sun planet also like that, and many other planets. The Bhagavad-gītā says, yānti deva-vratāḥ devān. If you want to go to the moon planet, sun planet, Venus planet or any other planet, you just prepare yourself in this life, and at the time of death, you'll be transferred to such and such condition of life. Similarly, pitṛ-vratāḥ, there are Pitṛ-lokas, bhūtejyā, bhūtejyam ghost worshiper. They will also go to such planet. And mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām, Kṛṣṇa says. "Those who want to go to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, they can also go there. They can also go there."

Therefore our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that if I have to prepare myself in this life… Actually this life is preparation for the next life. That is a fact. So here is a chance, this human form of life. Either you go back to home, back to Godhead, or again you go to the cycle of different species of life. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. You accept one type of body, live there for some time, then give it up, then accept another type of body, live for some time, then accept another type of body. In this way… But we are so much illusioned that although this is botheration, to accept one type of body, again give it up, again accept another type of body, we are not disgusted with this business. Because actually we are eternal. Why should we accept one type of body, live there for some time and again change it? That we have experienced. Just like any one of us, we desire that my youthful body may remain. We try to keep that youthfulness by so many medicine, by so many means. But nature will not allow to keep yourself always youthful. That is not possible. You must change. Therefore one should be inquisitive, that "I don't want this type of body, old body, feeble body, more conditioned, with rheumatic disease and other, so many disease, cough disease. I don't want it, but I'm forced to accept this body. This is real problem. I don't want to die, but death is forced upon me." So these question should be raised by really advanced human being, that "I don't want all these things. I want to enjoy this material world, but I am forced to change into a body. I cannot enjoy. I cannot enjoy." This is real problem. That real problem has been discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We want to enjoy. Suppose I am a technologist. I want to enjoy this material world. I manufacture something, very good facility for living condition, as we are doing. But before finishing my desirable construction, nature takes me away. Just like I saw in France, Paris. What is that arch?

Devotees: Arc de Triomphe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Napoleon wanted to construct that arch, and he was so, I mean to say, powerful man, but he could not see the arch beginning in his life; he was taken away. He did not like that, that he wanted to see something more, but he was taken away. But we are not seeing this point, that "I am trying to enjoy and we are adopting so many means, but where is the certainty of my enjoyment? At any moment I shall be kicked out, 'Get out!' " That brain is lacking in the present civilization. Therefore it is said in the Bhāgavatam, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto. Because these persons are abodha, have no knowledge, therefore they are trying for something to enjoy which may not be allowed by him. It is not actually allowed to him. Nobody wants to die; he wants to enjoy, live here. But that is not possible. So this is the real problem, that we have accepted a condition of life in the material world which will not allow me to fulfill my desires to the fullest extent. That is the real problem. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu… Those who are actually thoughtful, they should know these four principles of problem or unhappiness always in front. He should think that "I am trying to enjoy. I'm planning to enjoy this material world, but I have to die. I have to give up this body, at any moment. There is no guarantee that I shall live so many years. There is no guarantee. At any moment." Therefore the death has been described by Kṛṣṇa, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham. Mṛtyu means death, and sarva-haraś ca means one who take away everything. Sarva-haraś ca. "That is I am," Kṛṣṇa says, or God says. Those who are demons, those who cannot see God or feel the presence of God, they are called demons. So sometimes we hear they say, "Can you show me God?" Well, God is everywhere. God is within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. God is within this universe. God is within your heart. God is within the atom also. Now you have to make your eyes to see. Why do you say, "Can you show me God?" Have you got the eyes to see? Your eyes are imperfect. Why you are so much proud of your eyes? If there is no light, you cannot see, so what is the value of your eyes? So your seeing power is under certain condition. Therefore, if you want to see God, then you have to fulfill the condition.

That is, that condition is given in the Vedic literature:

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yam śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

If you have to see God, then you have to apply the ointment of love of God in your eyes, and then your eyes will be cleansed and you'll see God. This is the process. Premāñjana. Prema means love of God, and añjana means ointment. Just like sometimes we do not see correctly. In India, there is a kind of powder called surma. They apply it and they see clearly. Or some, any other. Similarly, there is possibility of seeing God with these eyes, provided you cleanse it. And what is the cleansing process? Love of Godhead, that's all. If you actually learn how to love God… That is practical. If you love somebody, in spite of being engaged in so many other occupation, you see your lover always-"When shall I meet? When shall I talk with him or with her?" This is practical. So if it is materially possible, if you develop your loving tendency… You have got the loving tendency. That is natural. Because living being is part and parcel of God. God is loving, so we have got that propensity of love. But our loving propensity has turned into lust at the present moment due to material condition. So if you want to purify that lust tendency into love, then you can see God. That is the condition. That we'll have to learn. That is called bhakti-yogam, bhakti-yogam, which we are teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The human life is meant for understanding God, for seeing God, for talking with God, for behaving with God. That is possible. But you require little training. From the animalistic life, the animal cannot talk of God, cannot understand of God, cannot see God. But if we remain in the animalistic way of life, then it is not possible to see God and talk with Him. But if we purify ourself, if we apply the ointment of love of God on the eye, then premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ, those who are saints… I think this "saint" word has come from the Sanskrit world santaḥ. Santaḥ is Sanskrit word. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who are saintly persons, those who have trained themselves in the affairs of love of Godhead, they can see God constantly within their heart. That is possible.

So here, Arjuna is also a saintly person. He's not ordinary man, because he's talking Kṛṣṇa personally. If Arjuna has got the chance of making friendship with God and talking with Him personally, everyone has got the same capacity, provided we elevate ourself to that standard of life, bhakti, bhakti-yoga. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "If anyone wants to understand Me, then the process is bhakti, devotional service." The process means how to love God, that process. And in the Bhāgavatam it is said… What is first-class religion? Sai vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That religion is first class which makes the follower a lover of God. This is simple definition of religion, first-class religion. If we do not awaken our dormant love for God, then śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Then you follow any type of religion, you simply wasting your time. That's all. That is not religion. Religion means to understand God and to learn how to love God. So here Arjuna, he loves Kṛṣṇa, he's a lover of God; therefore he's asking question from Kṛṣṇa. But whatever question is answered by Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect, because He is perfect. So our process of receiving knowledge: from the perfect. Not one who (is) illusioned, who commits mistake, whose senses are imperfect and wants to cheat. Because how an imperfect person can take the position of a teacher if he has…? Now so many scientists, we ask so many things, and they simply reply, "Yes, we are trying," "In future." That means he is not yet perfect. So if you are not perfect, why you are taking the position of a teacher? First of all, you be perfect. So that is not possible. Therefore, our process of receiving knowledge is from the perfect. And who can be more perfect than God Himself? That is our process of knowledge.

So Arjuna is asking from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And the answer, the next verse is: śrī bhagavān uvāca. It is not said, kṛṣṇa uvāca. It is said, śrī bhagavān uvāca: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead replied." What is that?

idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya

kṣetram ity abhidhīyate

etad yo vetti taṁ prāhuḥ

kṣetra-jña iti tad-vidaḥ

[Bg. 13.2]

He's replied the answer very nicely, that "This body is the field of activity." Idaṁ śarīram. Śarīram means this body. This body is the field of activity. Idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetraṁ kaunteya, etad yo vetti taṁ prāhuḥ kṣetra-jña iti tad-vidaḥ. And the person who knows this field of activity… Just like if we meditate upon this body, if I see my finger, if I ask, "What is this?" "This is my finger." "What is this?" "This is my head." "What is this?" "This is my leg." Everything "mine." And where is the "I"? Where is the "I"? The "I" means who is questioning; that is "I." This is self-realization. Therefore I, the real I, the soul, is different from this body. He's given the chance of living a certain type of body. Just like a man is given chance to work under certain office of position. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 forms of body, and each living entity has been given the chance to utilize it according to his desire. Because God is within you, everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. In the previous verse also, I recited. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. He sees God present in his heart. So because God is there in everyone's heart, He's there, He's simply waiting for the chance, "When you are coming back to Me?" He's so nice, so friendly. Because we have wanted to enjoy this material world, He's giving us the chance, "All right, enjoy, enjoy." "I want to enjoy this world as a tiger." "All right, take this body of a tiger." "I want to enjoy this world as a pig." "All right, take this." "I want to enjoy this life as Brahmā, a Lord Brahmā, who has got millions of years of age, duration." "All right, you become a Brahmā." But Kṛṣṇa advises, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna: [Bg. 8.16] "My dear Arjuna, even if you go the highest planetary system, the Brahmaloka, again you have to come back." This is the position of material world. You accept this, and again you accept this, and again you accept another thing according to your karma. Just like you have got this human form of body. It is a great opportunity. But if we do not utilize as human being, if we utilize it as cats and dogs, again I'm going to be cats and dogs. This is the process. Idaṁ kṣetram. This body is the field of my activities, and I, the proprietor of the body, I am the knower of the body. Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya kṣetram ity abhidhīyate etad yo vetti [Bg. 13.2]-this is real knowledge. Etad yo vetti, that is knowledge. The knowledge of technology is not knowledge. That is ignorance. The knowledge of self-realization is actual knowledge. That is possible in this human form of life. That is not possible by the cats and dogs. If we misuse this body for propensities like cats and dogs, we are misusing.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: …variation(?) between the Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedas books?

Prabhupāda: Vedic knowledge means to understand God, the whole Vedic knowledge. Knowledge means we are getting… Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda vido jñāne. Veda means knowledge. So we want to know so many things. That is knowledge. So you get all information from the Vedas. There is called Āyur-veda, Dhanur-veda, Yajur-veda. Veda means knowledge, but actually the Veda means, ultimately, to know God. That is called Vedānta. Anta means ultimate, and veda means knowledge. So ultimate knowledge is your, when…, if… You know so many things. We have got so many subject matters for understanding. But ultimately, when you understand what is God, that is the end of knowledge. That is end of knowledge. So that is Vedānta. So Vedānta means to know the Absolute Truth, God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa says that "By all Vedic knowledge, ultimately one must come to the point of knowing God." Therefore another name of God is Brahman, Parabrahman. So brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahman. That is called brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa is not a class which is to be found in India only. No. Anyone who knows God, who knows the Parabrahman, he is brāhmaṇa. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. So Vedic knowledge means ultimately to become a brāhmaṇa. That means to know God. That is Vedic knowledge. And the summary of Vedic knowledge is here in the Bhagavad-gītā, because here God directly is instructing about Himself. Therefore it is the essence of all Vedic knowledge. The ultimate goal of Vedic knowledge is to know God. But we cannot know God. We have blunt senses. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. With these material senses, blunt senses, imperfect senses, we cannot understand God. That is not possible. But if we can please God by your service, by our love, He reveals Himself, revelation. That is the process.

So simply by your speculation, research work, we cannot find out God. That is not possible, although God is here, everyone's heart. Sarvasya cāham hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg. 15.15]. God is there in everyone's heart. But who knows that? So there is a process by which one has to learn God, what is God. That is sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. It is very peculiar process, that you have to learn God through the tongue. Through the tongue. They want to see God with the eyes, but the Vedic information is that you have to know God through the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvā. Jihvā means tongue. When you employ your tongue in the service of the Lord, then he becomes revealed. The tongue's business is to glorify the Lord, chant the holy names of God. That is specially recommended in this age. You cannot follow all the rituals in any scripture. That is very difficult. We are now so fallen it is not possible. Therefore the general regulation is that you chant the holy name of the Lord. It does not mean that we are requesting you to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. We believe that Kṛṣṇa is the name of God, but if you have got another name… God has many names. God is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names. So if you chant the holy name of God, it doesn't matter, if it actually meaning… Just like "water." Water, if somebody says jala, he means water. If somebody says "water," he means water. If somebody says pāni, he means water. So actually, if the word you use as the name of God, if it's actually real name of God, then by chanting that holy name, you realize God. Therefore tongue is the beginning of realization. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. As well as controlling the tongue, we have to spiritualize the tongue. If you keep the tongue materialized, then it is defective. So two things are done by the tongue: tasting foodstuff and chanting the glories of the Lord. If we engage our tongue in this way… Foodstuff means…, our process is to offer foodstuff to the Lord and the remnants of foodstuff we eat, prasāda. So this is one process, this is one business of the tongue. And another business of the tongue is to chant the holy name of the Lord. So in this way, if you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord, then gradually your realize. You cannot realize, but God reveals Himself, what He is. So Vedic knowledge means to realize God. That is ultimate aim of Vedic knowledge. And here, Bhagavad-gītā, He's revealing Himself to Arjuna, because he's a devotee. So if we take the words of Arjuna, then we also realize God. This is the process.

Guest: I would like to put a question about the relation between Kṛṣṇa, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Paramātmā and Brahman…

Prabhupāda: Brahman.

Guest: Brahman. Which is the relation between these concepts? They are, according to your commentaries, in Bhagavad-gītā, different. But what is…

Prabhupāda: No. It is not different. Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. The Absolute Truth is one, but He is realized by different persons differently. Just like there is a big hill. So from very distant place you see that hill just like something like cloud. But if you go forward, then you see something green. And if you go actually to the hill, you see there are so many trees, so many houses, so many living entities. The object is the same, but realization from different angle of vision is different. That is the description of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Absolute Truth is called tattva. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. When I see the hill as a cloud, it is the same hill. When I see the hill as something green, that is the same hill. And when I see the hill actually, it is functioning, there are so many trees, so many animals, so many men, so many houses, this same hill. Similarly, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān is the same thing, but it appears different according to persons' different realization. But ultimately, the Absolute Truth is Bhagavān, Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Guest: But what is this personality? It is not the same as our personality.

Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that He is different.

Guest: In which we…, way do you use the concept of personality?

Prabhupāda: He is person. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the Second Chapter He says, "My dear Arjuna, I, you, and all these persons who assembled, it is not that we were not existing in the past, it is not that that we shall not exist in the future." When He says "I, you and all these persons," they are all persons. God is also person, Arjuna is also person, and the all other who assembled in the battlefield, they are also persons. So Kṛṣṇa says, "All these persons, they were existing in the past, now they are existing, and in future they will exist." So there is past, present, future. In no time, God is impersonal, neither we are impersonal. We are also personal. And that is also confirmed, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, Kaṭha Upaniṣad (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), that He is the chief person amongst other persons. We living entities, we are many persons, and God is the chief person. And what is the difference between this person and that person, the singular number person, one, and the plural number person, many? That is explained: eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one singular number person is supplying all the necessities of these different plural persons. That is the distinction. These things are expressed in Upaniṣad, Vedānta-sūtra. So ultimately, God is person.

Guest: But in, when Upaniṣads say there is…

Prabhupāda: Impersonal description.

Guest: The unity is unexpressible. It is,

Prabhupāda: Unexpressible…

Guest: Nothing can be said about…

Prabhupāda: No. Why not?

Guest: …the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: Why not? Just like this is also Upaniṣad, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So He's a person. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. There are so many. Apāṇi-pādo javano grahītā. Sa aikṣata, sa asṛjata. So when they say… In Christian Bible also, they believe God created. So if He's a creator, He must be a person. But His body is different from our body. That I have explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1].

Swedish man: Well, I would like to thank you for your talk. Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730909LE.STO

Lecture on Gurvaṣṭakam

at Upsala University

Stockholm, September 9, 1973

Prabhupāda: So in order to enter into spiritual life, two things are required, as enunciated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍo bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

[Cc. Madhya 19.151]

The living entities, they are wandering throughout the universe, changing bodies, transmigrating from one body to another, one place to another, one planet to another, but they are rotating within this universe, material universe, brahmāṇḍo bhramite. This science is unknown to the modern education department, how the spirit soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being transferred from one planet to another. We have got our book, Easy Journey to Other Planets. So guru can help you to transmigrate from this planet directly to the spiritual sky, where there are innumerable spiritual planets. They are known as Vaikuṇṭhaloka. And the topmost planet in the spiritual sky, that is called Goloka Vṛndāvana. That is Kṛṣṇa's planet. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are trying to give information how one can be transferred directly to the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet, Kṛṣṇaloka. That is our mission.

So what is the difference between this material world and the spiritual world? The difference is that in the material world you have to change your body, although you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You are not destroyed after the annihilation of this body, material body, but you transmigrate to another body. And that body may be one of the 8,400,000's of forms. There are 8,400,000's of forms. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. There are 900,000 forms in the water, two millions forms of trees and plants, eleven hundred thousand forms of the insect, and then one million forms of the birds. And then three million forms of the beasts. And then we come to this human form of life. Now it is our choice, whether you are going to be transferred again through the cycle of this transmigration of the soul from the one body to another in the lower species of life, or you want to be transferred to the spiritual sky. And you can transfer yourself to the highest spiritual platform, which is known as Goloka Vṛndāvana. That is your choice. You have been given the chance of this human form of body to make your choice. You are completely under the control of material nature, but the material nature gives you a chance to get this human form of body. Whatever you like, you can do. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

The purport is that those who are going, trying to be elevated to the higher planetary system, which is called Devaloka, or the planets of the demigods… There the standard of living, duration of life, is very, very large. Or if you want to be transferred to the Pitṛlokas, or in the lokas of the ghosts, bhūtejyā, or if you want to be transferred to the loka where Kṛṣṇa lives-mad-yājino 'pi mām-now it depends on your practice. But the rotating, wandering within this material world from one body to another or from one planet to another, that is not advised. That is called saṁsāra. Saṁsāra means material existence. That is called saṁsāra. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. You take your birth once in some form of body. You live for some time. Then you have to give up this body. Then you have to accept another body. Then again live for some time. Then give up that body. Again accept another body. In this way, it is going on. That is called saṁsāra, rotating within this material world.

That is compared with dāvānala. Dāvānala means forest fire. Forest fire. You have got experience. You have seen, might have. In the forest, nobody goes to set fire, but it takes place. Everyone knows it. Similarly, within this material world, nobody wants to be unhappy. Everyone is trying to be very happy, but he is forced to accept unhappiness. This is the position. Therefore it is called dāvānala. Dāvānala means nobody willingly sets fire, but there is fire in the forest. Similarly, in this material world, everyone is trying from time immemorial-even at the present moment. There is some occasional war, world war, and they manufacture some means. In our days, when we were young men, there was a League of Nations. Perhaps some of you may know. When the nineteen hundred, nineteen…, when the First World War was finished, these nations, they formed a League of Nations. League of Nations means just to arrange for peaceful living between the nations. So there was forest fire again. Nobody wanted war, but there was Second World War. Again. And again they are trying to, the League… What is that? United Nations. But the war is going on. The Vietnam war is going on, the Pakistan war is going on, and many others are going on. So you may try your best to live very peacefully, but nature will not allow you. There must be war. It is not possible. In the history, especially in European history, there were so many wars-Carthagian War, Greece War, Roman War, Seven Years' War between France and England, and Hundred Years' War…, so…, so far we have read in the history. And the war feeling is going on, not only between nation and nation, between man to man, neighbor to neighbor-even between husband and wife, father and son, this war is going on. This is called dāvānala, forest fire. Forest fire means in the forest nobody goes to set fire, but automatically, by the clash, friction of the dried bamboo, there is electricity and it catches fire. Similarly, although we do not want unhappiness, still, by our dealings we create enemies and friends, and there is fight, there is war. This will continue. This is called saṁsāra-dāvānala. Try to understand.

So guru means spiritual master means who can deliver one from this forest fire. Just like when there is forest fire, the animals are very much disturbed, and they die mostly. The snakes, they die immediately. So this forest fire, saṁsāra-dāvānala, is going on perpetually, and the person or the authorized person who can deliver you from this forest fire of material existence, he's called guru, or the spiritual master. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. How he delivers? What is his means? The same example. Where there is fire in the forest, you cannot send fire brigade, or you cannot go there with bucketful of waters to extinguish the fire. That is not possible. Then how it will be extinguished? Fire means it requires water to be extinguished. But where the water is coming from? From your bucket or from your fire brigade? No. It must come from the sky. It must come from the sky. When there will be torrents of rain from the sky, this forest fire, blazing forest fire will be extinguished. So these rains from the sky, it does not depend on your scientific propaganda or manipulation. It depends on the mercy of the Supreme Lord. So the spiritual master is compared with the cloud. Just like from the cloud there is torrents of rain, similarly, a spiritual master is considered just like cloud. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. Just like cloud takes the water from the sea-cloud hasn't got its own water; cloud takes water from the sea-similarly, a spiritual master brings mercy from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Just see the comparison. He has no own mercy, but he carries the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the qualification of spiritual master. A spiritual master will never say that "I am God. I can give you mercy." No. That is not spiritual master. That is a bogus, pretender. A spiritual master will say, "I am servant of God. I have brought His mercy. Please take it and be satisfied." This is spiritual master's business. Just like a post peon. A post peon, when he delivers you some large amount of money, it is not his own money. The money is sent by somebody else. But he honestly delivers you: "Sir, here is your money. Take it." So you become very much satisfied with the peon. Although it is not his money, but when, in case of need, you get the money sent by your father or somebody else, brought by the peon, on oh, you get very much satisfaction. Similarly, we are all suffering in this blazing fire of material existence. The spiritual master brings the message from the Supreme Lord and delivers you. And if you kindly accept, then you'll be satisfied. This is the business of the spiritual master.

saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-

trāṇāya-kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam

prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇarṇavasya

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

So spiritual master is offered obeisances: "Sir, you have brought the mercy from the Supreme Lord. Therefore we are much obliged to you. To deliver us, you have come. We offer our respectful obeisances." This is the meaning of this verse. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. That means the first qualification of the spiritual master, or guru, is to deliver you some message by which immediately your blazing fire in the heart will be stopped. This is the test.

Everyone has blazing fire within the heart. That is the proof of material existence. Nobody is without anxieties. That blazing fire means anxieties, always. Everyone has got anxieties. Even the small bird, he has got anxiety. You give the small bird some grains to eat, he'll eat it. But he's not very peacefully eating. He'll see this way, that way, "If somebody's coming to kill me?" Yes. This is material existence. Everyone… Even President Nixon, he's also full of anxieties, what to speak of others. Even Gandhi, in our country, he was full of anxieties. All politicians, they're full of anxiety; although they hold very exalted post, still the material disease, anxiety, is there. So if you want to be anxiety-less, without any anxiety, then you must take shelter of the guru, or the spiritual master, and the test is that by the instruction of guru, by following the instruction of guru, you will be anxiety-less. This is the test.

saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-

trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam

prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

Don't make a cheap guru or a fashion guru, just like you keep sometimes a dog as a fashion. Similarly, if you want to keep a dog, or if you want to keep a guru as a fashion-"I have got a guru"-that will not help. You must accept a guru who can extinguish the blazing fire of anxiety within your heart. That is the first test of a guru.

And the second test is, mahāprabhoḥ kīrtana-nṛtya-gīta-vaditra-mādyan manaso rasena. The guru… Second system, symptom, is that guru is always engaged in chanting Mahāprabhu, glorifying Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is his business. Mahāprabhoḥ kīrtana-nṛtya-gīta. He's dancing and chanting in the… By chanting the holy name of the Lord… Because this is the remedy for all calamities within this material world at the present moment. At the present moment, nobody can meditate. The so-called meditation is humbug. It is very difficult to meditate in this disturbing age of Kali. Therefore śāstra says, kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum [SB 12.3.52]. Meditation means dhyāna, dhyāyato. So Kṛte, in the Satya-yuga, when people used to live for 100,000's of years… The Vālmīki Muni, he got perfection by meditation after meditating for sixty thousands of years. So there is no guarantee whether we are going to live for sixty years or sixty hours. So meditation is not possible in this age. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. Then the next path is performing rituals as they are enjoined in the Vedic śāstra. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ. Yajato makhaiḥ. Makhaiḥ means performing big, big sacrifices. It requires huge lots of money. They, in this age, people are very poor. They cannot perform. Dvāpare paricaryāyām. And in the Dvāpara-yuga it was possible to worship the Deity in the temple. But nowadays, in this Kali-yuga, that is also very impossible fact. Therefore, the general recommendation is, kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt: "In this age of Kali, simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord, you can get all perfection." All perfection. That is the… Our this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for that purpose. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu… The picture is there, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Here, Ṣaḍ-bhūja. So He inaugurated this movement five hundred years ago, chanting. Chanting and dancing. So this is going on for the last five hundred years. In India it is very popular, but in the Western countries, we have just introduced five or six years ago, and people are taking to it, and they are feeling happy. So this is the only process. Therefore, the guru is always engaged in chanting. Mahāprabhoḥ kīrtana-nṛtya-gīta **, Chanting and dancing. Unless he performs himself, how he can teach his disciple?

So first symptom is that he will give you such instruction that immediately you will feel relief from all anxieties. And the second symptom is that he's personally engaged also in chanting and dancing the holy name of the Lord. Mahāprabhoḥ kīrtana-nṛtya-gīta-vaditra-mādyan manaso rasena. And enjoy the transcendental bliss within the mind by chanting and dancing. Unless you become blissful, very happy, you cannot dance. It is not… Artificially, you cannot dance. These dances, they are not artificial. They feel some transcendental bliss; therefore they dance. It is not they are dancing dog. No. They dance from the spiritual platform. Vaditra-mādyan manaso rasena. Romāñca-kampāśru-taraṅga-bhājo. And there are sometimes transformation of the body with spiritual symptoms-sometimes crying, sometimes there is, I mean to…, swelling on the end of the hairs. There are so many symptoms. These are later. These are not to be imitated. But when one is spiritually advanced, these symptoms are visible. This is the second symptom of guru. And the third is:

śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-

śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau

yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

The spiritual master's duty is to engage the disciples in Deity worship, śrī-vigraha. Śrī-vigraha. In our centers, all centers… We have got about…, more than one hundred centers all over the world. We have got the method of Deity worship. Here we have not yet established, but we worship the picture of Lord Caitanya and guru. But in other centers… In London, we have got two centers, two temples. In America we have got about forty centers. In this way, in each and every center, there is Deity worship. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā: to worship the Deity, to dress the Deity very nicely; to cleanse the temple very nicely; to offer nice foodstuff to the Deity and accept the remnants of the foodstuff as our eating. In this way, there is method of Deity worship. The Deity worship is done by guru himself, and he engages the disciple also in that business. This is the third symptom. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mār janādau, yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi. Not that he is not engaged. He is also engaged. His disciples are engaged. He's always showing, "Do like that. Do like that. Do like that." Or sometimes, if he cannot, the guru shows how to do it. That is the business of guru.

Then fourth symptom is:

catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda-

svādv-anna-tṛptān hari-bhakta-saṅghān

kṛtvaiva tṛptiṁ bhajataḥ sadaiva

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

The fourth symptom is that a guru, the spiritual master, encourages prasāda distribution, remnants of foodstuff distributed to the public. Ours is not dry philosophy, simply we talk and go home. No. We distribute prasādam, very sumptuous prasādam. In every temple, anyone who comes, we can offer prasādam. In each and every temple, we have got already from fifty to two hundred devotees. And outsiders also, they come and take prasādam. This is an… This introduction is also another symptom of guru, prasāda distribution. Catur-vidha. Not ordinary. Catur-vidha means four kinds of eatables: carvya, cūṣya, lehya, peya. Something is chewed, something is swallowed up, something is licked up. In this way, there are different kinds of palatable dishes. Catur-vidha-śrī… Catur-vidha means four kinds of different types of varieties of prasādam. Catur-vidha-śrī… Śrī-bhagavat-prasādam. Śrī means opulent. If you eat bhagavat-prasādam, then gradually you become spiritualized. It has got the potency. If you eat the prasādam. Therefore it is said that realization of God can be done by the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. If you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord, then you realize God realization. So what is that tongue engagement? The tongue engagement is you chant the holy name of the Lord, and you take the prasādam, remnants of foodstuff given to the Lord. Then you become self-realized, God realized. By these two methods. You don't require to be very highly educated philosopher, scientist, and a rich man and…, to realize God. If you sincerely engage your tongue only in the service of the Lord, you realize Him. It is so simple thing. It is not very difficult. Therefore, this prasādam program is there, introduced by the guru, spiritual master. Śrī-vigra… Catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda-svādv-anna-tṛptān hari-bhakta-saṅghān. Hari-bhakta-saṅga means association of the devotees. These things are done… Outside we cannot do it. But if there are some devotees, we can order, "Please do it. Distribute like this. Do like this." Therefore hari-bhakta-saṅghān. Kṛtvaiva tṛptiṁ bhajataḥ sadaiva. And when he's fully satisfied that the prasāda distribution is going on, he's very much pleased and engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord by chanting and dancing. This is the fourth symptom.

And fifth symptom is:

śrī-rādhikā-mādhavayor apāra-

mādhurya-līlā-guṇa-rūpa-nāmnām

prati-kṣaṇāsvādana-lolupasya… **

What is that? Anyway. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. And the spiritual master is always thinking of the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-rādhikā-mādhavayor apāra: with Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, His consort, and the gopīs. That is always his thinking. Sometimes he's thinking about His pastimes with the cowherds boys. That means that he's engaged always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, engaged in some kind of pastime. Śrī-rādhikā-mādhavayor apāra-mādhurya-līlā-guṇa-rūpa-nāmnām pratikṣaṇa asvādana lolupasya. Pratikṣaṇa, twenty-four hours, he's thinking. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One must be engaged twenty-four hours in thinking of Kṛṣṇa. You have to make your such program. Just like we have, at least, made such program. All these boys and girls, those who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are engaged twenty-four hours. Not officially, once in a week, they meditate or go to some temple. No. Not like that. Twenty-four hours. Twenty-four hours. They have got engagement twenty-four hours. Ask anyone how they are engaged. You can ask.

The next symptom is… What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Nikuñja-yūno.

Prabhupāda: Nikuñja-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā *. So the ultimate goal of the spiritual master is that he wants to be transferred to the planet of Kṛṣṇa, where he wants to associate with the gopīs to help them to serve Kṛṣṇa. Some, some of them are, some of the devotees, spiritual master, they are thinking of becoming assistants to the gopīs, some of them are thinking to be assistants to the cowherds boy, some of them are thinking to be assistant to mother Yaśodā or Nanda, and some of them are thinking to the servants of God. Or some of them are thinking how to become a flower, tree, a fruit tree or a calf or a cow in Vṛndāvana. There are five kinds of mellows: śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya and mādhurya. The… Everything is there spiritual. That I shall describe next. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu. So in the spiritual sky, the land is spiritual, the tree is spiritual, the fruit is spiritual, the flower is spiritual, the water is spiritual, the servant is spiritual, the friend is spiritual, the Lord is spiritual and His associates are spiritual. Everything. Therefore oneness, Absolute Truth, everything absolute. Although there are varieties, these varieties, the spiritual varieties, are simply reflection in this material world. Just like there is a tree on the bank of the river. That is reflected in the water. But reflected how? The top has gone down. The topmost thing has gone down. So this material world is the reflection of the spiritual world-but perverted reflection. In the spiritual world, there is love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is always young. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. And Rādhārāṇī is also always young. Pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa. We worship: śrī-rādhikā-mādhavayor apāra *. Mādhava. Jaya jaya Rādhā-Mādhava. We worship not Kṛṣṇa alone-with His eternal consort, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. So there is eternal love between Rādhārāṇī and Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This Absolute Truth means wherefrom everything comes, emanates. Just like here we find love between mother and son, love between wife and husband, love between master and servant, love between friends and friends, love between master and the dog or the cat or the cow. Same thing. These are only reflection of the spiritual world. The same thing is there. Kṛṣṇa is also good lover of the animals, calves and cows. As we love here dogs and cats, Kṛṣṇa loves there cows and calves. You have seen the picture of Kṛṣṇa. So the propensity to love even an animal is there. Otherwise how it can be reflected here? This is simply shadow reflection. If, in the reality, there is nothing like that, then how it can be reflected here? So everything is there. Therefore, that mellow, to understand, you have to practice. Here we have got frustration. Here we love. A man loves a woman or woman loves a man. But there is frustration. After some time, they are separated, they divorce, because it is perverted reflection. There is no real love in this material world. It is simply lust. Real love is in the spiritual world between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Real love is between Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs. Real love, the friendship is there between Kṛṣṇa and His cowherds boys. Real love between animal and man is there. Kṛṣṇa is loving the cows and calves. Real love between trees, flowers, water, simply that is the platform of love. That is spiritual world. Everything love.

So we are simply satisfied within this material world by the shadow reflection of such thing, as in the spiritual world. Therefore we have got this opportunity of human life. Let us understand Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Let us understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ… Tattvataḥ, in truth, not superficially. Learn this science of Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is the instruction: if you simply try to love. The process is that you worship the Deity, you take the prasādam, you chant the holy name, you follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way you'll be trained up how to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then you life is successful. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

730925LE.BOM

Lecture

Bombay, September 25, 1973

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, the father of saṅkīrtana movement within two hundred years. He was ācārya and a householder, gṛhastha. He was very responsible officer, magistrate, householder. But he was a great devotee. Not only devotee-ācārya in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu disciplic succession, ācārya. So he sung, ye dine gṛhete bhajana dekhi, gṛhete goloka bhāya: "The day whenever we find there is bhajana," means worshiping the Supreme Lord, "at that time immediately the house becomes Vaikuṇṭha." Actually, that is so. Vaikuṇṭha or Goloka Vṛndāvana is not material things. Just like Kṛṣṇa is not material. Kṛṣṇa… As Kṛṣṇa can stay in His abode, Goloka Vṛndāvana, and still He can stay everywhere… Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. That is Kṛṣṇa.

In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated,

eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ

yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ

aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu cayāntara-sthaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ…

[Bs. 5.35]

Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, is everywhere by His one plenary portion, which is known as Paramātmā. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. That Paramātmā is situated in every universe, aṇdāntarastham. Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. As Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu He is presented in every universe, and as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu He is within everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Not only within the heart of everyone, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham, He is within the atom. That is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's place, Goloka Vṛndāvana, that is also spread everywhere. How that Goloka Vṛndāvana becomes spread? As soon as there is devotee. Yes. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe na ca yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu: "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha-loka or within the heart of the yogis." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ: "I stay there where My devotees are chanting about Me, about My glories." This is the process. Immediately… Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa's power, omnipotency, omnipotency. We pray God, "Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent." So that is fact. God can be present anywhere simultaneously, omnipresent. Similarly, there is no difference between God and His place. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. As Kṛṣṇa is worshipable, ārādhya, similarly His place is also ārādhya, worshipable. So as He is all-pervading, similarly, His place is also all-pervading. So how things can be changed into Vaikuṇṭha? That is by chanting the holy name of the Lord. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. So the bhaktas, they are also so powerful that by chanting the holy name of God, they make the supreme all-powerful Lord descend in that place. Therefore the statement of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that ye dine gṛhete bhajana dekhi, se dine gṛhete goloka bhāya… So we can change our home also into Vaikuṇṭha. We can change our home. It is not difficult. Because as Kṛṣṇa can be all-pervading, Vaikuṇṭha is all-pervading. But we have to simply realize it by the authorized process. Everyone, we can change our home into Vaikuṇṭha.

So there is another statement of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi anācāra. To turn your home into Vaikuṇṭha is not very difficult job. Simply you have to adopt the method. Kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi anācāra. Anācāra means sinful activities. You cannot associate with God if you become sinful. That is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam: "One who is completely free from sinful life," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28], "He can worship Me." So therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we do not recommend that "You give up your occupation, you become a sannyāsī, give up your wife and children." No. That is not our movement. Amongst ourself here there are sannyāsīs, brahmacārīs, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. Everyone is there. Everyone can worship Kṛṣṇa. There is no such thing that "This class of men, only the brāhmaṇa or the sannyāsīs or brahmacārī or Hindus…" No. Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Even lower born, born in the lower grade family, he is also open. Simply one has to adopt the means. That is recommended by… There are many songs. Locana dāsa, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he also says,

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana

kabe hāma herabo śrī vṛndāvana

Viṣaya means sense enjoyment. Sense enjoyment. So one has to give up this practice of sense enjoyment. Then he becomes purified. There is no prohibition for eating, but there is prohibition of eating things which are rejected, amedhya. Eating is not stopped, but you cannot eat anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. That is called anācāra. If you eat something which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa… Because our life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness life, means to be always eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. As the servant eats the remnants of foodstuff left by the master, similarly, we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. We also eat, but we eat remnants of foodstuff which is left by Kṛṣṇa. That is called prasādam, mahā-prasādam.

So we have to, I mean to say, mend our life in such a way that kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara, chāḍi anācāra. We have to give up anācāra, forbidden things, sinful things. Striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ dyūtaṁ yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ. There are four kinds of sinful activities. Basic principle of sinful life is avaidha, illicit sex life. Avaidha stri-saṅga. Striyaḥ sūnā, unnecessary animal killing. Pāna, drinking intoxicant; and gambling. We have to give up these four principles. Then our life becomes pure. If we give up these four principles and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then we become perfect. How it is? You can see the examples. These European, Americans, they were accustomed to all these practices. That is their daily affair. But they have given up this. Now you see, how they are saintly. So the thing is not very difficult, but one has to accept the principles. Then one lifes becomes perfect. They do not know what is perfection of life. People are thinking that material advancement is perfection of life. No. That is not perfection of life. Because even if you make nice material arrangement, you cannot enjoy it. At any time you shall be kicked out. Where is your perfection? Suppose you have very nice apartment, very nice good bank balance, very nice wife, children. Everything is all right. But is there any guarantee that you can enjoy them? Is there any guarantee? At any moment you shall be out. This is not perfection. First of all make guarantee that "Whatever I am preparing for, very happy life in this material world, they will be permanent. I will not be kicked out." Then it is perfection. But there is no such guarantee.

Therefore this is not perfection of life. Perfection of life is that when there is guarantee of no more birth, no more death, no more old age and no more disease. That is perfection. That can be achieved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not by material way. Hariṁ vinā na mṛtiṁ taranti. If you want to be eternal, blissful, eternally blissful and full of knowledge, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], then we have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other way. There is only way. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. If you are serious about perfection of life, then one has to take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam: "Without any doubt, you shall come to Me." And what is the principle? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakti mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Four things: "Simply always think of Me," man-manā; "you become just My devotee," mad-bhakta; "just worship Me…" So is it very difficult task to think of Kṛṣṇa and to worship Him, to become His devotee and to offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa? Just like we are doing this, in this evening. This is the process. We are thinking of Kṛṣṇa by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. We are offering obeisances to the Deity and at least trying to become bhaktas. Man-manā bhava mad…, mad-yājī, and worshiping. What is the worshiping? Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. It is not difficult. Little flower, little fruit, little water, anyone can collect. But the thing is a dog obstinacy: "I shall not do it." That is the thing. Otherwise it is very easy thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if we adopt it, our life becomes successful. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching. But there is a dog's obstinacy that they will not adopt: "No." This is our defect. Otherwise the process is very simple; everyone can adopt it in every country, every man. There is no distinction that "This class of men can adopt and that class of men can…" No. Just like the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, it is now being chanted all over the world, and they are becoming Vaiṣṇava. These European, American boys… Then where is the difficulty? But the difficulty is our obstinacy. If one is obstinate, he is determined, then it is very difficult. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Only these classes of men, duṣkṛtina, always engaged in sinful activities, mūḍha, rascal… Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. And lowest of the mankind. Because human life is meant for worshiping Kṛṣṇa. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, hari hari viphale, janama goṅāinu: "My life is spoiled." Why? Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. So we are trying to stop drinking poison knowingly. Viṣayā viṣānale, divā-niśi hiyā jvale, taribāre nā koinu upāya, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, rati nā janmilo kene tāya. These are the Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's… Big… They were stalwart ācāryas.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for everyone's benefit. It is the topmost humanitarian movement to make everyone happy, to make everyone immortal, to make everyone peaceful(?), to make everyone… [break] …without being wise, nobody can surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Mūḍhas, rascals, they cannot. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. These are the qualification, who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Duṣkṛtina, narādhama. "Oh, how he is narādhama? He is M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., T.H.C. How he is narādhama?" Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: his knowledge has no value because he does not know Kṛṣṇa. These M.A., Ph.D.'s will not help me. Śaṅkarācārya said, na hi na hi rakṣati ḍu-kṛñ-karaṇe. "By your grammatical jugglery of words nonsense, you cannot be saved." Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate: "You rascal, just engage yourself in the loving service of Govinda." This is Śaṅkarācārya's advice, although he was impersonalist. Kṛṣṇa says that "Who does not worship Me?" Naradhāma, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, they have no knowledge. Because if he remains in the real point a rascal, then what is the value of his knowledge? There is no knowledge. Therefore bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of struggling for existence like this, if one becomes actually wise, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. This is intelligence. This is intelligence. "Kṛṣṇa, from this day, I surrender. So long I was forgotten. I did not know that my only business is to surrender to You." So any moment you surrender, immediately you are protected.

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

[Bg. 18.66]

"Don't bother. Everything is there." Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31].

So this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to make fools and rascals and sinful men to become wise. If you take advantage of it, you will be glorified and we shall be glorified. This is our process. And actually it is happening. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is pāpi tāpi yata chila, harināme uddhārila, tāra sākṣī… You want evidence? Jagāi and Mādhāi. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu delivered two Jagāi and Mādhāi. Now you can see how much Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is strong. Many thousands of Jagāi-Mādhāi's are being delivered. So His movement is greater than Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personally He delivered two Jagāi-Mādhāi. Now, by His movement, thousands Jagāi-Mādhāi's are being… This is the practical. And it is very easy. It is not very difficult. Anyone can take. But if we take knowingly poison, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu, who can protect you? So it is our appeal to everyone that take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Even if you cannot give up your bad habits, sinful activities, still, you take the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and your life will be glorified.

Thank you very much. [break] (answering question:) It is just like without eating, if you question that how one is satisfied by eating food. A hungry man, if you give him food, he will say, "Yes, I am satisfied." There is no question of "How?" If you eat… If you are hungry, if you eat, you will feel satisfaction. It is automatic. Similarly, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you will understand. Not from outside. How? You can see how these boys and girls, they are feeling satisfaction. Similarly, if you chant also, you will feel satisfaction. There is no question of "How?" It is so, exactly (as) when you are hungry, if you eat, you will feel satisfaction. It is practical. It is stated therefore,

rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyaṁ

pavitraṁ paramam idam

pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyaṁ

su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam

[Bg. 9.2]

Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. It is not theoretical. If you practice, you will see, pratyakṣāvagamam. And it is very easy to perform. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you will understand. Exactly like that: if you eat, then you will feel satisfaction. Simply theoretically discussing how it become, we can say to you… It will not be understood. You chant, you will understand. Practical. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam. This is the process. Any other question?

Indian man (1): To make it more clear to me what I feel, that it is something like not realizing that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the real reason, to chant the name, it will be something like we have instances in the old śāstras and books and histories, that…

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by old?

Indian man (1): I mean the history, those stories…

Prabhupāda: That story, that stories… You do not know the science. Why you are talking like nonsense? What do you mean by old? It is eternal. There is no question. Avyayam. Nityaḥ śāśvataḥ. You do not know.

Indian man (1): Therefore they used to pray to God before they used to go to commit theft, and they used to come back again to worship the God and to please Him that yes, they were not caught.

Prabhupāda: So do you think we are dacoits?

Indian man (1): No, but…

Prabhupāda: Then what do you think? Why do you question this? Why do you question these nonsense things?

Indian man (1): That praying to God without…

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is better than you because you do not know what is God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

api cet su-durācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ…

[Bg. 9.30]

Who is worshiping God, but his character is not good, he is sādhu. And those who are talking and no connection with God, he is mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, narādhama. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to talk through the medium of śāstra. It is said, api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He is sādhu, because he has taken, he has come to the right place, bhagavad-bhajan. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. He will not remain such thief.

kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā

śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati

kaunteya pratijānīhi

na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati

[Bg. 9.31]

If one has actually taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will never be lost, even though you find for the present he is not well-behaved. That is the version of Bhagavad-gītā. Even a thief, even a rogue, even a sinful man takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and follows the rules and regulation, for the time being you may find there are some faults, but it will vanish very soon. Just like the electric fan, it is moving. You make the switch off, you will find still moving. But it will stop moving very soon, because the switch is off. Similarly, if anyone takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, if you find that still he is not well-behaved, that is not very important thing. He has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is important thing. Because this superficial external misbehavior will stop. There are many śāstras' example.

tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer

patet tato yadi, bhajann apakva

yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ

ko vārtha āpto abhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ

[SB 1.5.17]

Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, even one takes by sentiment, still he is profited. And person who are very honest in executing his duty but does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, śāstra says ko vārtha āpto abhajatām: "What does he gain?" He does not gain anything, because he is bound up by the resultant action of his karma. So it is a great science. One has to understand. Then… But for the present… Of course, a Kṛṣṇa-bhakta never takes the profession of a dacoitry. We have no such evidence. Rather, dacoits were made very great devotees. There are instances. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Even if he is dacoit, but Kṛṣṇa-bhakta," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30], "he is to be considered sādhu." So it is the certificate of Kṛṣṇa. What can I do? (laughter) [break] Ārati. (end)

731018LE.BOM

Lecture at Bhāratīya Vidyā Bhavān

Bombay, October 18, 1973

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Śrīman Nandajī, Ladies and Gentlemen, this scarcity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness was felt long, long ago. When, before starting this movement, I tried to approach many friends in India… Sometimes I think I approached late Mr. Munshi also, when he was governor in U.P. I requested that everyone may contribute a son from the family so that I can convert him an actual brāhmaṇa. Because the education at the present moment is creating śūdras. Actually, there are two kinds of dharmas: paśu-dharma and mānava-dharma. Paśu-dharma means eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse, and defending. This is paśu-dharma. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhiḥ narānām. Eating, this is essential. Try to understand what is dharma. Dharma means which you cannot give up. Dharma does not mean you accept this dharma today and tomorrow another dharma. That is not dharma. Dharma means the natural characteristic. Just like sugar is sweet. That is its dharma. And chili is hot. That is its dharma. A snake bites. That is his dharma. Water is liquid. That is its dharma. Stone is solid. That is its dharma. You cannot change. So what is the dharma of the living entities, or the human being? Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has enunciated the dharma of the human being: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is dharma, that every living entity is eternally servant of Kṛṣṇa. He cannot give it up. If he does not serve Kṛṣṇa, then he will have to serve māyā. Service is there. Nobody can say that "I don't serve anyone." Is there anybody who can say boldly that "I do not serve anyone?" You must serve. That is your dharma. Either you become a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu or this or that, your real characteristic is that you have to serve. That service attitude, when it is misunderstood, it is applied to māyā, and we are not happy. When it is applied to Kṛṣṇa, then we are happy. Service you must render. That is your position. You cannot become master. Even the politicians, they promise, "I shall give you such and such service. Please give me vote." So the service is promised, because we have to serve.

So this definition given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that jīvera svarūpa haya kṛṣṇa nitya-dāsa: "The real, original characteristic of the living entity is to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "All these living entities, they are My parts and parcels." Just try to understand. What is the duty of the parts and parcel? Suppose this finger-they are the parts and parcel of my body. What is the duty of the finger? The finger has to catch the foodstuff or prepare the foodstuff and put into the mouth. The finger cannot enjoy; it has given to the stomach. Similarly, if we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we cannot enjoy anything directly without giving Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. So Kṛṣṇa also said in the Bhagavad-gītā, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya sambhavāmi yuge yuge.

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

[Bg. 4.7]

So what for Kṛṣṇa comes? Does he come to establish Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma or Christian dharma? If Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, why He should be interested in particular type of dharma, Hindu dharma, Christian dharma or Muslim dharma? No. Therefore after giving instruction throughout the whole Bhagavad-gītā, at last says Kṛṣṇa, "The most confidential part of My instruction, Arjuna," sarva-guhyatamam, "is this: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]." This is dharma. If you are not surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa, or God, your dharma has no meaning. It is useless. And where the definition of dharma is given by Kṛṣṇa at the last stage of His instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, if one can catch up this point, then he begins bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma.

Prahlāda Mahārāja said, kaumāraṁ ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. Kaumāra, from the very beginning of childhood, one should be taught about dharma, especially bhāgavata-dharma, the relationship with God. Similarly, in other place it is said,

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā suprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

Yena ātmā suprasīdati. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6], highest type of religious system, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, by which one can learn how to love God-that is dharma. Anything else, that is not dharma. That is paśu-dharma. Nandajī has invented a very nice word, mānava-dharma. So mānava-dharma means what is the distinction between mānava and paśu. That distinction is that a man eats, an animal eats; a man sleeps, an animal sleeps; a man has got sexual intercourse, animal has got sexual intercourse; a man also tries to defend, an animal also tries to defend. So these four principles of dharma, bodily necessities of life, is equal to the man and the animal. If you manufacture very nice palatable dishes for eating, that does not mean you are advanced in civilization. No. It is eating. So what is the difference between mānava-dharma and paśu-dharma? Mānava-dharma means what Kṛṣṇa teaches-sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is mānava-dharma. Except this, anything, that is paśu-dharma. That is paśu-dharma. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All cheating type of dharma is kicked out from this bhāgavata-dharma."

So actually, if we are interested in mānava-dharma, we should take instruction from the authorities. Don't try to manufacture dharma. That is not possible. You cannot manufacture. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma means the codes given by God. That is dharma. Just like law means given by the state. You cannot manufacture law at your home. That is not possible. Nobody will care for that. Nobody will care for that. Just like on the street we have got the law, "Keep to the left." So if you say, "Why not go to the right?" you will be immediately arrested. You are criminal, because it is law by the state. By your consideration, where is the difference between going… In some countries, in England… England is "Keep to the left," India. America is "Keep to the right." So this may be changed in different countries and different laws, but law means which is given by the state. Similarly, dharma means which is given by God. You cannot manufacture dharma. That will not be applicable. So therefore Kṛṣṇa says, the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that "I descend." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. What is that glāniḥ? When one forgets Kṛṣṇa, or God, and manufacture his own religion, paśu-dharma, he cannot be happy. That is not possible. Just like if you make your own laws, you cannot be happy. You must obey the laws of the state. Similarly, what is the law of God? That is dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma cannot be manufactured by any man or any demigod or any saintly person or… No. The dharma is given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, which He says as the last instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And actually it is happening all over the world. Since we have presented this dharma, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it is working very wonderfully. We have got branches all over the world, and you will find… Some of the samples you will see, those who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, these Europeans, Americans, Canadians-we have got even branch in Iran also-Muhammadans, Christians, African. Everyone is taking to this dharma, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu enunciated, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. There is a conflagration of flame all over the world on account of godless civilization, this nonsense civilization. We have to stop it. Then you will be happy. You cannot become happy without God. That is not possible. Therefore if you actually interested to spread dharma, you take the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, standard, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't try to interpret in a fashionable way: "This means that, that means that." No. "Kṛṣṇa" means Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means… Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "My dear Dhanañjaya, there is no more superior authority than Me." You have to accept that. Kṛṣṇa says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. You have to accept that. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. You have to accept that. Then you will be able to… You will be successful. Otherwise it is useless waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed ratiṁ yadi

śrama eva hi kevalam

[SB 1.2.8]

You can execute your so-called dharmas, but if it does not help you to understand what is God, then it is useless waste of time. It is useless waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. So actually, this Bhārata-varṣa is the land of dharma. Even some Communist Chinese gentleman, he has written a book… That is recommended in the New York University. He says that "If you want to know about dharma, you must go to India and learn there." We have got so facility. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in the land of Bhārata-varṣa, first of all let him become perfect and distribute the knowledge all over the world. That is paropakāra.

So I shall request that there is great need of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world. It is only one man's attempt. If persons like Nandajī and others, living persons… Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. Nandajī is one of the śreṣṭha-vekti of India. He was minister in the Central government. Now he is out of office. But the man is the same. I was very glad when I received the literature. I thought, "At least one man in India is thinking that India is so much downfallen." So I was very much encouraged. Otherwise I was very much discouraged that there is no human being in India, because they have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, forgotten God. Now I see there are still. So I shall request Nandajī that take the standard method as prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Then you will be successful. Not only Nandajī-anyone. The example is already there. I am preaching all over the world Bhagavad-gītā as it is. There is no fashionable interpretation. No. As it is. And how they are being accepted. So why not in this country? And in this country Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural. It is not artificial. From the birth of a man, (he) is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Artificially he is being cut down, "Forget Kṛṣṇa." This nonsense dharma should be stopped. Take Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is being accepted all over the world. Why not in India? Why you present competitors of Kṛṣṇa? Don't do this. Take this instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You will be successful. If you manufacture something, you will never be successful. I tell you. So anyone. The standard is there, the instruction is there, everything is there. Why should we try to manufacture something new? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhayaṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. That is our process. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhanam. Simply by argument, you cannot reach the confidential part of dharma. Śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you study Vedas, that is also…, Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, you will be puzzled. So, nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. He is not a philosopher or a muni who cannot give a separate theory.

So these things are going on. Therefore how to know what is the purpose of dharma? That is stated that dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Just follow, try to, mahājana. Who can be better mahājana than Kṛṣṇa? Is there anybody in this world still now better than Kṛṣṇa, who can give good instruction, more beneficial than Kṛṣṇa? No. There is not. So take this principle, Bhagavad-gītā as it is, the instruction of Gītā, instruction of Kṛṣṇa, and try to follow. It will be successful not only in India, all over the world. That is my practical experience.

Thank you very much. (applause) [break] (end)

740131LE.HK

Lecture

Hong Kong, January 31, 1974

Prabhupāda: Next verse, go on.

Pradyumna: (reading Sanskrit to Bhagavad-gītā Chapter Seven, texts 2-5, devotees responding)

jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam

idaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ

yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj

jñātavyam avaśiṣyate

[Bg. 7.2]

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: (reading)

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahareṣu

kaścit yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

Prabhupāda: Hm. Bhūmir āpo…

Pradyumna: (chanting)

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ

khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me

bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

[Bg. 7.4]

apareyam itas tv anyāṁ

prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām

jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

Prabhupāda:

mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

The duty of human life is to understand God, Kṛṣṇa. In the Vedānta-sūtra, the first aphorism is athāto brahma jijñāsā. Athaḥ, "therefore.'' Because we have got this human form of body, so this is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. In the other life, animal life, beast life, tree life, plant life… There are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and through evolutionary process we have passed through 8,000,000 forms of life or a few thousand more forms of life, because human beings, they are of 400,000 forms of life. Just like we have got experience over this planet there are different forms of life, different system of religion, different system of culture, even though all of them are of human form life, similarly, there are other forms of life-aquatics in the water; in the jungle, trees, plants, mountains; and then insects, reptiles, ants; then birds, flies. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa the description is there what are the different forms of life. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni. In the water there are 900,000 forms of life. Who knows that? But in the Vedic śāstra everything perfectly calculated is given there. This is called Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means perfect knowledge. There is no (indistinct) who can calculate how many forms of life are within the ocean. But from the Vedic literature you get just exact conclusion-900,000 species of life. The botanists, they cannot say how many forms of trees and plants are there. But in the Vedas you'll find sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati-2,000,000's forms of life, of trees and plants. Sthāvara. Sthāvara means the living entities which cannot move, stand in one place. This is a punishment, those who are too much dull. Means…, dull means cannot understand what is God. That is dullness. Otherwise for eating, sleeping, sex life and defense there is no need of university education. Nobody goes to the university to learn how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life and how to defend. There is no education required, because these four kinds of bodily necessities of life are known even to the animals. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām. How to eat, the animal knows. Even the newborn child who has no education, no experience, he still… Even the cats and dogs, cubs, as soon as born, they find out the nipples of their mother and eat or suck. Even the eyes are blind at that time, but still he knows where is their food. Similarly, human child also knows.

So for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, there is no need of education. Education means athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is education. How to know the Supreme Absolute Truth-that is education. But the university, they are educating people how to eat, how to sleep. Eh? They are manufacturing so many eatables, different types of eatables, although God has given immense foodstuffs for human society. Just like these fruits, they are made for human beings. They are not eatables for the cats and dogs. They are meant for human beings. So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has supplied, He is supplying immense foodstuffs for all living entities. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. But there is allotment for the pig-the foodstuff is stool-and for the human being, the foodstuff-fruits, flowers, foodgrains, milk, sugar. So as God has allotted, you use that for your eating. Eating is required. Then your life is successful. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Do not try to imitate others. Do not try to imitate the hog and the pig to eat stool. That is not human bodies' foodstuff. You eat your own foodstuff. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ. This is life. Food is already there, but the difficulty is that we do not know that we should be satisfied with the foodstuff allotted to us by God. Īśāvāsya. The foodstuff belongs to Kṛṣṇa, God. You cannot manufacture in the factory this nice foodstuff-apple, orange, banana and others, so many hundreds and thousands. So therefore the only business of human form of life is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Being. That should be our inquiry. That should be the subject matter of education. Not how to eat, how to sleep, how to mate. These things do not require education. Because the animals, they also know. So everyone knows what is his foodstuff, how to sleep. When there is…, you feel sleepy, he does not ask for "Give me a good apartment, good bedstead.'' You'll lie down anywhere and enjoy sleeping. Similarly, how to enjoy sex life, nobody requires university education. So if we waste our time simply for being enlightened how to manufacture different types of foodstuff, how to take it on table and chair, nice dishes or plate, that is waste of time. If you utilize your time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is perfection of human life. Not to waste your time in the animal propensities of life. That is not education, that is not human form of life.

So that education will be complete if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is being taught in the Seventh Chapter by Kṛṣṇa Himself. What is that? Mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha: "You have to become always absorbed or attached on Me,'' on Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Āsakta means attachment. We have got attachment for so many things. We have got attachment for our family, for our country, for our society, for our business, for our cats, for our dogs, so many things. But we have no attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is lacking. Therefore life is imperfect. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanusthitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

[SB 1.2.8]

Everyone is performing his duty very nicely. That is…, Bhāgavata says, dharma-svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām. Everyone has got his duty, either as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, as a brahmacārī, as a gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsī. This is Vedic eight divisions of social life, human life, varṇāśrama-dharma. Unless one comes to this institutional progress of life, varṇa and āśrama, they are animals. Human life begins from these eight divisions of occupational duties. A brāhmaṇa must execute his duty, a kṣatriya must execute his duty, vaiśya… They are all described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the duties of brāhmaṇas: satya śamaḥ damaḥ tapaḥ ārjavam jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Kṣatriya-tejaḥ śauryaṁ yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Vaiśya-kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Śūdra-paricaryātmakaṁ karyam śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. Everything is there. So if everyone discharges his duty properly, then his life becomes successful. So on the whole, everything is required. The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-these are different divisions, but what for the divisions are meant for? The division is meant for understanding God, Kṛṣṇa. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. These instructions are given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that everyone has got a particular type of duty as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, like that. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Division of varṇa and āśrama. And everyone has got his duty. So how the duty is perfected? How to know that? That is stated,

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhiṁ hari-toṣaṇam

Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. You are acting your duty as a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, that's all right, śūdra, but you have to see whether Kṛṣṇa, or God, is satisfied by your duty. If you see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by your discharging of duties in a particular position, then you should know that your life is perfect. Otherwise, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply undergoing unnecessary troubles.

So how you can understand whether Kṛṣṇa or God is satisfied by discharging your particular type of duty? That is Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself: mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. You have to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Āsakta means attachment. You should be attached to your business not for the business' sake but for the attachment of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is to be satisfied. Generally we do business for my satisfaction, for my family satisfaction, for government satisfaction, for income tax satisfaction and so many satisfaction. But when you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa or increase your attachment for His satisfaction, then your business is perfect. Mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhi.. Everyone wants perfection; otherwise what is the use of jumping like cats and dogs? That is not meant for human being, unnecessarily jumping and dancing. You must dance for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is… There is tendency for dancing, for chanting, for singing. They are holding ball dances, and musical instruments. The same thing we are propagating-chant and dance Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is satisfaction. This is satisfaction. Our movement is not dry. We are simply asking people, "Chant, dance, eat nice foodstuffs, take prasādam and go home.'' It is not dry, because the same tendency is there. Everyone goes to the hotel, everyone goes to the nightclub, eats sumptuously and dances with musical instruments, enjoys the same thing-but in connection with Kṛṣṇa. You take prasādam, you chant, you dance and enjoy life, but in connection with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Your life is successful. That is Kṛṣṇa also saying, mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. This is the yoga, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-the topmost yoga. There are many yogis, you might have seen, for gymnastics of the body. That is not perfection of yoga. That is yoga, a kind of yoga, but there are different kinds of yoga systems, bhakti-yoga, jñāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, rāja-yoga, so many. But Kṛṣṇa says,

yoginām api sarveṣām

mad-gatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

"That yogi's perfect who's always thinking of Me,'' mayy āsakta-manaḥ. This is being taught. "Always thinking.'' And Bhagavad-gītā, in another different place it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mam evaiṣyasi. Asaṁśaya. The aim of life should be, especially of the human body, that try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And as far as possible… Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood fully because He is unlimited, and we have got limited knowledge. But still, as far as possible and as much as possible, if we try to understand Kṛṣṇa, janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Kṛṣṇa advents Himself, comes on this planet. He executes so many duties, takes part in so many occupational functions as human being, but everything is full of instructions. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't try to understand, even that is also good superficially, but in truth.'' Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ means "in truth, in fact.'' So if anyone… Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Divyam means His birth is not ordinary birth. If it had been ordinary birth, then why we are still performing the Janmāṣṭamī ceremony, Kṛṣṇa's birthday ceremony? Many big, big kings came and gone. Who is performing the birthday ceremony of that king? But we perform according to Vedic system the birthday ceremony of Lord Rāmacandra. Nowadays we have imitated so many other birthday ceremonies, but in the śāstra it is enjoined the birthday ceremony of the advent of God should be observed. The birthday ceremony of God is called jayantī. That is special constellation of the stars. But now the jayantī has been used for so many rascals and fools. This is not śāstric. So because Kṛṣṇa's janma and ordinary man's janma is not the same thing, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Divyam means transcendental, not material. Not material. It is spiritual or transcendental, divyam. Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Still you have to learn it in truth.

So if you learn this science, simply to understand why Kṛṣṇa advents, why Kṛṣṇa takes part in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra or other activities just like a human being… Why? If you try to understand this fact… That can be known. They are all mentioned in the śāstra. The sādhus, they know; the guru, he knows. So if you want to be learned in the science you can become, because śāstra is there, guru is there, and sādhu is there. Sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Then you will be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why He advents, why His activities are transcendental. So if you try to understand these things, then what will be the result? Result will be tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this body, no more material body. No more material body means no more death. The death takes place on account of this material body; otherwise the living entity, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Living entity is eternal; he does not die, he does not take birth. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Eternal. Then why he dies? That death is of this material body, not of the eternal soul. So although we are eternal, nityaḥ śāśvataḥ, still we have to accept different types of body. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Dehino'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. So this transmigration of the soul from one body to another is not very good business. Who wants to die? Nobody wants to die. But he has to die. He must die. There is no question of he likes or not likes. Nobody wants to take birth, again enter into the womb of mother. And nowadays it is very risky, because mother is killing the child: the ultimate end of Kali-yuga. The mother's shelter, a child feels very happy on the lap of mother, and that is the arrangement of nature. Mother should take care of the child. But in this age the people are so, I mean to say, contaminated that even mother is killing child. Just imagine what is the position of birth and death. Birth and death is not very good business. Therefore if you want to stop this birth and death then take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, try to understand Kṛṣṇa.

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvataḥ

tyaktva dehaṁ punar janma

naiti (mām eti so 'rjuna)

[Bg. 4.9]

Punar janma naiti. You can stop your birth and death. And if you stop your birth and death, then you stop your disease and old age. That eternity-you are eternal. You get your eternal life. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The eternal…, even if we get this material body, even though we change this material body, just like I was a baby, you were a baby, but that body is no longer existing. I am in different body, still I am existing. Therefore na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Although the body has changed, I am not changed. This is my position. Therefore perfection of life means to keep oneself in his original, constitutional position, not to change body. But that is possible. How it is possible? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Everything is there. How it is possible?

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

[Bg. 9.25]

If you want to go to the higher planetary systems by pious activities, you can go there, yānti deva-vratā devān. You can go to the planet where Lord Brahma lives or where Indra lives or Candra lives. The modern process, by taking a sputnik or jet, you can go to the moon planet. But that you can go. Whether you can go or not go, that is up to you. But you cannot stay there. That is not possible. If you want to stay there, then yānti deva-vratā devān. You have to prepare yourself by worshiping that particular deva or deity, demigod; then you will be admitted. Just like if you want to go to a foreign country you have to take the permission of the immigration department, visa, then you can go. If that law is there in this planet, why not for other planet? How you can go abruptly, by force? That is not possible. Yānti deva-vratā devān. You have to prepare yourself to go. You can go there. But after this life, if you are sufficiently prepared to enter that particular type of planet, you can go there. Similarly, you can go to the planet where Kṛṣṇa lives. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. So what is the difference between going to the higher planetary systems, heavenly planet, and going to the planet where Kṛṣṇa lives? The difference is, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. If you go to the planet where Kṛṣṇa lives, then you haven't got to come back again. Otherwise, in other planets, in the heavenly planets, kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti. You can live there, just like you can live in a foreign country so long your visa continues. Simply… Similarly, you can go to the higher, heavenly planets, but you can live there up to the point of visa, puṇya. By pious activities you can go to the higher planetary systems, but by impious activities you go to the lower planets. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. So even if you go to Brahma-loka, Indra-loka-ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartinao 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]-you have to come back again. But, yad gatvā na nivartante, tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. If you go to that planet, yad gatvā na nivartante, one does not require to come back again. "That is My real abode.'' Tad dhāma paramam. Every dhāma is Kṛṣṇa's, but that is the parama dhāma, supreme dhāma. Just like the king. The kingdom belongs to the king, but still he has got his special royal house, palace. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all planets, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29], but He still has got His own planet. That is called Gokula Vṛndāvana.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a movement to educate people how to go back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. So our request is that you take advantage of this movement. Don't be fully simply absorbed in the activities of animal life-eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. This is also required, but under regulation. Eating is not prohibited in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but eating is regulated. Don't eat anything without Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. Oh, Kṛṣṇa prasādam, there are so many varieties nice foodstuff. Be satisfied taking Kṛṣṇa's prasādam so your eating problem will be solved and you will advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to go back to home, back to Godhead. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement for the human society, and this is not a Utopian thing. It is authorized. For every action of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is support from Vedas, Vedic literature. Just like whenever we speak something we immediately give evidence from the Bhagavad-gītā. It is not that something, "In my opinion it is…'' No. We have no opinion. We don't give our opinion. We present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all. As Kṛṣṇa says, we say the same thing. We have no difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat, kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior truth than Kṛṣṇa,'' Kṛṣṇa says. We accept that. We preach that, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. If you are searching after God, that is your duty. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is your human life's business, to search out the truth, Absolute Truth. Then that is Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is indirectly said, "The Absolute Truth is janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], from whom everything is generated.'' That is Absolute Truth. That answer is given in the Bhagavad-gītā, aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything.'' Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Somebody may say the demigods like Lord Brahma, Siva, they are the beginning demigods. But Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām. "The all the demigods, but their beginning, they are also coming from Me.'' Sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. These things are there. So we are teaching that. It is not difficult. We are not manufacturing anything by fertile brain. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, preaching the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. The Bhāgavata is also further explanation of Bhagavad-gītā, Vedānta-sūtra explanation.

So we have got immense literature. We have already published more than twenty books. If you want to understand the Absolute Truth by philosophy, by science, there are books. Otherwise, the easy method is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So God has given you the tongue, and it doesn't matter whether you are Indian or American or Englishman, German or African. Everyone can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That is actually being done. In Africa they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In Australia they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In Europe they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In Asia they are accustomed to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. The chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is going on all over the world. Take advantage of it. Don't miss this opportunity, and make your life successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Any questions? Any questions?

Devotee: Does anyone have any questions? Feel free to ask if you do.

Prabhupāda: No questions? Everything understood? No difficulty in understanding? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Try to clear if it is not understood. I have spoken nothing which is not understandable, but still, if you have not understood, you can put your question. Hm. All right, then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have any question, you can ask.

Indian man: Five thousand years (indistinct). How many more years will Kali-yuga will stand?

Prabhupāda: Four hundred and twenty-seven thousands of years. The complete age of Kali-yuga is 432,000's years. Out of that, the Kali-yuga has begun from the date of Battle of Kurukṣetra, historical. So we have passed 5,000 years from the date of Battle of Kurukṣetra. Therefore 432,000's of years minus 5,000's of years, the remaining age-427,000's of years. This is practically the beginning of Kali-yuga. Now the more the age of Kali-yuga will increase, the sufferings of Kali-yuga will also increase. At the end of Kali-yuga there will be no food supply. There will be no more food grains, no more fruits, no more milk, no more sugar. These things are stated. And everyone will be obliged to take meat and roots. Gradually the condition of the people will be so dull that they'll not be able to understand what is God. At the present, even in the beginning, even 5,000 years have passed, people cannot understand actually what is God. A vague idea. They do not know actually what is the nature of God. So gradually it will be forgotten. But still, because still people have got some sense, therefore this preaching work is going on. At the end they will be all nonsense, just like animals. Therefore there will be another incarnation, Kalki, at the end of Kali-yuga. He'll simply kill the whole population.

mleccha-nivaha-nidhane kalayasi karavālaṁ

dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam

keśava dhṛta-kalki-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare

Mleccha. Mleccha means misbehaved. As we say-mleccha, yavana. One who does not follow the Vedic principles, they are called mleccha. And those who are meat-eaters, they are called yavana, mleccha, yavana. This is the meaning of mleccha, yavana. It is not a particular class of men. Anyone who eats meat, he's a yavana, and anyone who does not live to the standard of Vedic understanding, he is a mleccha. So everyone will become mleccha. So mleccha-nivaha-nidhane kalayasi karavālam. The Lord will become very much vicious. Asi karavālam. Just like dhūmaketuh, comet. Dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam nidhane. Mleccha-nidhane. That will be the only remedy-to kill all the mlecchas. The avatāra, Kalki avatāra will come. Keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra, ah, keśava dhṛta kalki śarīra. Buddha śarīra is also, keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra, to give protection to the poor animals. Lord Buddha appeared to stop animal-killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ. Lord Buddha, he declined to accept Vedic authority. Why? Because in the Vedas also there is sanction sometimes in yajña, animal sacrifice. But he wanted to stop animal sacrifice, animal-killing. Therefore he denied the authority of Vedas. Because people will give evidence that "You are preaching no animal-killing, but in the Vedas sometimes in sacrifice the animals are sacrificed. How you can stop this?'' Therefore Lord Buddha had to deny the authority of Vedas. That is described, nindasi yajña-vidher. The animal-killing is described in the Vedas, in the yajña-vidher, not in the slaughterhouse. In the Yajña-vidher. That also was decried. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Because according to Vedic civilization, śruti, Veda, is the evidence. Therefore if Lord Buddha accepts the authority of Vedas, he cannot say, "Stop animal-killing.'' Then he said, "No. I do not follow Vedic principles.'' Therefore he is called nāstika. Anyone who defies the authority of Vedas, he is called nāstika. Sri Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says, veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta' nāstika. On account of denying the authority of Vedas, the Buddhas became nāstika. Vedāśraya nāstikya-vāda bauddhake adhika. And those who are lip-sympathy vedī-"I am following Vedic principles'' and doing all nonsense-they are lower than these nāstika. Lower than the nāstika. Veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta' nāstika. So Lord Buddha appeared to stop animal-killing, ahiṁsā. He did not say anything more. His only mission was, "Let these rascals first of all stop this animal-killing, they'll understand further about spiritual advancement.'' Those who are animal killer, they cannot understand anything about spiritual advancement. That is not possible. Therefore this thing must be stopped first. That is Buddha philosophy. But in spite of that… (end)

731110LE.DEL

Pandal Speech and Question Session

Delhi, November 10, 1973

Prabhupāda: Mr. High Commissioner and Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your coming here, taking so much trouble, to participate in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And I shall simply try to draw your attention about the importance of this movement. Importance of this movement is this, that we do not know what is the aim of life. The modern civilization, all over the world, especially in the Western world-nobody knows what is the actual problem and what is the aim of life. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, "The real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9], that birth, death, old age and disease, these are the problems." If you take birth, then you will have to die. Anyone who takes birth, he must have to die. And so long, between birth and death, there is old age and disease. Actually, these are the problems. So far we are concerned, living entities, every one of us, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "The living entity is never born, never dies." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "The living entity is eternal, ever-existing and very old, and," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, "it does not die after the annihilation of this body." But the modern civilization, they are thinking that "This body we have got somehow or other, a lump of matter, and so long we have got this body, let us enjoy life, sense gratification." This is atheistic theory.

In our country there were atheists also. Just like Cārvāka Muni. According to his philosophy, he says, ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. Because in our country, India, life is enjoyable when we get to eat too much ghee. You see, pakhika anna (?). That is enjoyment. Just like in Western countries, if they can eat, they can drink more, that is life's enjoyment. In our country, of course. So ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. If somebody says that "I have no money," so Cārvāka Muni says that "You take loan from your friend and purchase ghee and enjoy life." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet yāvaj jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet. "So long you will live, live happily. Why… Make beg, borrow, steal and live happily." "No. I shall be responsible. I shall have to pay next life." Cārvāka Muni says, "No, no. Don't bother about next life." Bhasmī-bhūtasya dehasya kuto punar āgamano bhavet: "Your body will be burned in the crematorium. That finished. That's all." This foolishness is there, that this life… We do not know that this human form of life we have got by the evolutionary process, going through so many lives. Just like in our present life we can understand that I have come to this body, old body, through child's body, boy's body, youth's body, in this way. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is not manufactured.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāra yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

You have to accept this, dehāntara-prāpti, from one body to another. Where is my childhood body? That is gone. Where is my boyhood body? That is gone. Where is my youthhood body? That is gone. Not only for me, for everyone. There is past, present and future. Similarly, when this body will be gone, I will get another body. Where is the difficulty to understand? Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhīra. Because we are not sober… There are two classes of men: dhīra and adhīra. Dhīra means sober, thinking, thoughtful, and adhīra means restless. So with restless brain, it is difficult, but if you have got sober brain, then there is no difficulty to understand that "I am eternal. I was in the child's body, I was in the baby's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in a young man's body. Now I have got a different body. I am living asmin dehe." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. It is very easy to understand, but Kṛṣṇa says, dhīras tatra na muhyati: "Those who are sober, they can understand."

So people cannot understand. That means the modern civilization is not sober. It is just like cats and dogs. You cannot make a cat and dog sober to understand the philosophy of life. They have degraded so much. That is described in the śāstra. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Ātma-buddhiḥ, thinking "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am black," "I am white," "I am fat," "I am thin," "I am this." No, no. You are not this body at all. That is knowledge. That is knowledge. Knowledge begins when you understand that you are not this body. That is the beginning of knowledge. Otherwise, "I am this body," this knowledge is there in the cats and dogs also. The dog also jumping, because he is thinking, "I am very nice dog," or "Nice cat." So śāstra therefore says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is a bag of three elements-kapha, pitta, vāyu-according to Ayurveda system. This physiological condition, anatomical condition of this body, is made of kapha, pitta, vāyu. So it is a bag of kapha, pitta, vāyu, or flesh, bones, blood, urine, stool, and mucus. If you dissect this body, you will find. Do you mean to say combination of these things can make a life, so nice brain? If you are so competent, then take these ingredients, bones, flesh. They are easily available in the slaughterhouse. Make a good brain. But that is not possible. They simply speak, but it is not possible. Therefore this body is not the… Moving spirit soul, that is different. Therefore śāstra says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhiḥ. And as soon as you take this body, that "I am this body," then, in bodily relation… Because a woman has got bodily relation, "She is my wife," and the children born out of the womb of that woman, "That is my children…" Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Bhauma means the land where we live or where this body is produced. That is worshipable. That is called nationalism. Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit. And tīrtha, holy place… Just like people go to Vṛndāvana, Hardwar. Salile. They take birth in the Ganges and the Yamunā, and they think that "Now we have finished our tīrtha." No. Tīrtha is not that. Tīrtha means we have to find out sober person to take instruction from him. So people who are not interested to the sober man and lives like this, that "I am this body, and the bodily production or relation, they are my own men, and if I go to holy place, take bath and then come back…" No. Śāstra says, "No." Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣu abhijñeṣu. You must approach abhijñaḥ person. That is the meaning of pilgrimage. As the Vedas says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. You must find out a sober man or guru so that he can instruct you, he can deliver you from ignorance of life.

So you'll find in this Bhagavad-gītā, when there was talks going on between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, friendly talks… Arjuna was speaking, "Let them enjoy this kingdom. I don't want to fight with my own men." That was his decision. Kṛṣṇa said, "No, no. This is not your duty. You are a kṣatriya. Now you are in the battlefield. You must fight." In this way, ordinary topics were going on. But when Arjuna saw it very difficult to understand, "Whether I shall fight or not fight?" he accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru. Because he thought that "Friendly talks will not make solution. Let me accept Kṛṣṇa as my…" Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Prapannam: "I surrender unto You. You are my guru. Now You are not my friend; You are my guru." Because a disciple cannot disobey the guru. A friend can disobey. Kṛṣṇa is asking to fight. As a friend, he was disobeying. But if a guru says that "You must fight," then you cannot disobey. Therefore he accepted, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam.

So actually we are all in the ignorance. The same formula:

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

Go-kharaḥ. Go means cow and khara means ass. This is the verdict of the śāstra, that "If anyone is in the bodily concept of life, he is not better than the animals go and khara, ass and cow." So this ignorance, when this ignorance prevails, that is called dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. Kṛṣṇa said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. When people are become like cats and dogs, the bodily concept of life, and working whole day and night without any spiritual understanding, without the aim of life… So this human life is not meant for that purpose. This is the mistake. It is not that the dogs and cats are eating in a different way. Now we eat in a nice table, in nice plate, and very nicely dressed, and you are eating… But eating process is there. Either you nicely eat or wrongly eat, but you have to fulfill your bell(y) and satisfy your hunger. That is not advancement of civilization. To eat nicely, to sleep nicely, to defend nicely and to have sexual life nicely, that is not advancement of civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhiḥ narāṇām. Sexual intercourse with beautiful woman and sexual intercourse with the female dog, the pleasure is the same. That is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization is ātma-tattvam. Ātma-tattva. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. Śrotavyādīni rājendra [SB 2.1.2]. Mahārāja Parīkṣit asked Śukadeva Gosvāmī, "Now I am going to die. What is my duty? What I shall hear from?" So at that time Śukadeva Gosvāmī said, "My dear King," śrotavyādīni, nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2], that "Those who are gṛhamedhī…" Gṛhamedhī means has made the home, country, society, family as the only means of advancement. They are called gṛhamedhī. But there is another word, what is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Brahmacārī āśrama, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama, sannyāsa āśrama. Āśrama. As soon as… Any common man can understand. As soon as we say āśrama, there is some spiritual idea. Āśrama. Here is a āśrama. So gṛhastha āśrama is different, and gṛhamedhī is different. Gṛha-medhī means one who does not know what is the ultimate goal of life and living like… Cats and dogs also, they live with their children, wife. They also find out food. They also try to defend, protect. Simply with these ideas, if we live, that is called gṛhamedhī. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2].

Therefore our Vedānta-sūtra is there to give enlightenment. As our student Śrīman Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī said, athāto brahma jijñāsā, this life is not meant for wasting time like cats and dog. Because after all, we have to give up this life. But before giving up this life, we must gain something. That is described in the Upaniṣad. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ. We'll have to die like cats and dogs, but we have got the chance to understand what is the value of life. The cats and dogs have no chance. So simply if we waste our time like cats and dogs and do not know what is the aim of life-sa kṛpaṇa. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti, aviditvā yaḥ prayāti sa kṛpaṇaḥ. There are two things: brāhmaṇa and kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa means miser. A person who got this valuable body… Just like if you get millions of dollars, if you do not utilize it, if you simply see in the treasury that you have got so much money, then you are kṛpaṇa. It is practical. But if you utilize that money and instead of one crore you make ten crores, then you are called intelligent. Similarly, if we think that "I have got this human form of life, better standard of eating, sleeping and mating," then you remain kṛpaṇa. You could not utilize it. But if you know in this life, which is possible, "What is the value of this life? What is Brahman? What I am? What is my connection with Brahman? Why I have come here? Where I shall go again? Why I am put into the miserable condition of life? I do not wish to die. Why death is enforced upon me?" this is called brahma-jijñāsā, inquiry, "Why?" Therefore there is a Kena Upaniṣad, "Why?" Unless this "why" inquiry comes in the human body, then he is failure. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Whatever we are doing, we are being defeated, because we are doing everything in ignorance. "I am this body." "This is my country." "This is my kinsmen." And in this way I die like cats and dogs.

So Kṛṣṇa says,

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya…

[Bg. 4.7]

Adharmasya. What is that dharma? Kṛṣṇa says,

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ

vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām

dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya

yuge yuge sambhavāmi

[Bg. 4.8]

So what is that dharma? Dharma, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma, the simple description of dharma is "the codes which are given by God." It doesn't matter whether you are Hindu, Muslim or Christian or any. Everyone, any civilized man has got some religion. Because dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If you haven't got no religion… It doesn't matter whether Hindu religion, Muslim religion. You must have some religion. Religion means to understand God. That is religion. Religion does not mean I manufacture something. No. You cannot manufacture religion. Religion means… Just like you cannot manufacture laws. Law is given by the state, by the government. Similarly, religion means the codes, the orders given by God. Therefore you must know what is God, what is His order and how to carry out it. Then you will be success…, your life is successful. Otherwise, just like the cats and dogs, they do not know how to carry out the laws of the state… Of course, they are excused. The "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left," the cats and dogs, they can violate. Law is not meant for the cats and dogs. Law is meant for the human being. Therefore the cats and dogs, if they violate the codes of God, the law of God, they can be excused because they are animals. But a human being, he has got the developed consciousness. If he does not utilize this body for understanding "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God? How to act? Wherefrom I have come? Where to go…" There are so many questions. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is meant for brahma-jijñāsā.

Now, where to jijñāsā? That is called Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad-vijñānārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science, one must have to go to the bona fide guru. And who is guru? Guru is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. And anyone who represents that Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is guru. Guru means representative of God. Therefore according to Vedic śāstra, guru is worshiped like God. This is… Just like my disciples, they have given this seat and…, almost equally with God's seat. That is the injunction. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. Guru should be worshiped as God, but guru will never claim that he is God. That is not guru. Guru will always claim that he is servant of God. Because the śiṣyas worship him as… Śiṣya… Guru does not say that "You simply worship me." He directs that "You worship God." But because one gets God's connection through guru, therefore guru is worshiped as God. Just like in our country there was viceroy. He was given the same respect as the king because he is representative of…, the royal representative. Similarly, śāstra says,

sākṣād dharitvena samasta-śāstrair

uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ

kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

This is the offering obeisance to guru. Guru is described as respectable as the Supreme Personality of God. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt [SB 11.17.27]. The Supreme Personality of Godhead says that "Ācārya should be accepted as I am. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryopāsanam. So therefore we have to receive the knowledge in the disciplic succession of ācārya. That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Rājarṣayaḥ. This knowledge, they were understood by the rājarṣi. Rājarṣi means king; at the same time, saintly person. Not the king and robber, dasyu-dharma, imply exacting taxes, "Come on, give me tax, and you go to hell." That is not king. That is not government. It is government's duty to make… The government should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and it is government's duty to see that everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious-you say "Kṛṣṇa" or "God"; it doesn't matter. If you think that "Let the people go to hell. It doesn't matter. Bring taxes and let us enjoy, and you go to hell…" It is very horrible condition.

So everywhere this is going on; therefore there is necessity of awakening this God consciousness of the people. It is not a childish thing or sentimental fanaticism. It is real science. Because this human life is meant for understanding "What I am," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. If you can educate people to become brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20], then prasannātmā, he becomes happy, jolly. Just like these American boys, American girls, they were many, many times in better condition of life. Now they are wandering with me. What can I give them? I cannot give them nice food. I cannot give them nice shelter. Neither I have money. They are coming. They are all rich men's sons, but they are after me. Why? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. They have got something. They are feeling obliged that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has given us something." That is… Therefore they are after me. So this is the Brahmā cond…, brahma-bhūta ātmā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. That is the sign. "I have become Brahman. I have become Nārāyaṇa." No. If you are prasanna, if you are always joyful, then it is to be understood that you have realized Brahman. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati. There is no śocana. Here in the material world I have got something. If I lose it, I cry, "I have lost, I have lost, I have lost." And if I do not possess, then kāṅkṣati, "I must get it. I must." These two businesses are going on. But when you become brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā, these two things will go away. Na kāṅkṣati na śocati.

And samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: equally seeing all living entities. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Brahma-bhūta means he is learned scholar, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, self-realized; therefore he has no such distinction that "Give protection to the human being and send the poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Equality." What equality? What the poor animals have done that you are sending them to the slaughterhouse? Is that civilization, this rubbish civilization, maintaining hundreds and thousands of slaughterhouse? So simply speaking "love," "fraternity…" Where is your fraternity? Where is your love? This cannot be possible. This may be big talks only-but to be understood by the nonsense. Unless you become brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20], self-realized, Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious, these things are only stories. It is not possible. This is the description in the Bhagavad-gītā.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

Then he becomes a devotee. To become devotee is not so easy thing. Not so easy thing. People think that devotion is a sentiment. No. It is not sentiment. It is a great science. It is a great science to become fully satisfied. Fully satisfied. And Kṛṣṇa says,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

This is the process of śānti. Bhoktāraṁ. Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. We are after worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. Wherever we go, we install this Kṛṣṇa Deity and we work for Kṛṣṇa, we print books for Kṛṣṇa, we distribute books for Kṛṣṇa, we beg everyone to become Kṛṣṇa's bhakta. Therefore it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are doing that. We have no other business. Simply Kṛṣṇa. Why? Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavata, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "I am the Supreme."

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhava

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

Only the learned scholars can worship Kṛṣṇa. Only the learned scholar, self-realized soul, can understand Bhagavad-gītā. Not by the politicians and the so-called scholar. No. It is not possible.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement. We appeal to the sober class, dhīra, not the adhīra. We also accepting dhīra and adhīra by the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by the mercy of the Gosvāmīs. Dhīradhīra. Dhīra and adhīra. Just like these boys and girls, they were adhīra. Now they are dhīra. Adhīra. Adhīra means without any responsibility, doing all nonsense. Actually they are rich nation's sons and daughters. They are doing ev…, but now they have become dhīra. "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Yes, sir." This is dhīra. You are already intoxicated. You are already illusioned in this material world. If you still go on drinking, where is the possibility of knowledge? You must have sober brain to understand. So this is going on. Therefore my appeal to all the sober men: to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and join it for the benefit of his personal self, for the benefit of his country, for the benefit of the whole human society.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. But people did not take it very seriously. Therefore Kṛṣṇa came as a devotee in the form of Caitanya Mahāprabhu to teach people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is the… Kṛṣṇa, Lord Caitanya is also Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person, He demanded that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, but people did not take it very seriously. Therefore He again came, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like some servant is massaging your legs, but you do not like it. You sometimes take his leg, "You do like this, do like this, do like this." So that master has not become servant, but he's teaching how to massage. Similarly, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself, but He is teaching rascals like us how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is the difference.

British man: No. What I'm trying to ask is that if the Vedic scriptures were written about five thousand years ago…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

British man: …then how is it just only five hundred years ago somebody came to impart what was written five thousand years ago?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. As soon as it becomes too much deteriorated, then Kṛṣṇa comes Himself or sends His representative to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It may be five thousand years or five lakhs of years or five days. That doesn't matter. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya. Whenever there is discrepancy. It doesn't matter. It does not depend on the historical dates. When there is necessity. When there is necessity. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata. At that time. So although Kṛṣṇa consciousness was introduced five thousand years ago by Kṛṣṇa Himself, but it deteriorated. (end)

740314LE.VRN

Lecture

Vṛndāvana, March 14, 1974

Prabhupāda: So we are all very fortunate that different nations, from different parts of the world, are now combined together in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Some of you, you have come from Europe: England, France, Germany, Holland, Rome. Similarly, you have come from America: New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco; Canada: Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver; Africa: Nairobi, South Africa. So it is very good example that you have come from different parts of the world to join in the Saṅkīrtana movement. That is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagāradi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

He said that all over the world, as many towns and villages are there, the name of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu will be known. So His prediction was never to be foiled. So by His grace it is now becoming fulfilled. This is the real platform of United Nations. They are trying for United Nations, working for the last thirty years, but they have not been successful, neither they will ever be successful. That is our prediction. Yes. They'll never be successful. Because you cannot be united on the material platform. That is not possible. Because on the material platform… Material platform means on the bodily concept of life: "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra." All… So many, "I am." All designation. So on the platform of designation there is not possibility of unity. That is not possible. Unity's possible on the spiritual platform. Those who are under the concept of this body, "I am this body," they have been described in the śāstra as go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and kharaḥ means ass. Sa eva go-kharaḥ.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

Go means cows, and kharaḥ means ass.

So this Vṛndāvana tīrtha, if somebody comes here with the bodily concept of life, he does not derive any benefit. Yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile. Salila means water. Just like generally people come here, take their bathing in the Yamunā River, and they think, "Now my business is finished. I came to Vṛndāvana. Now I have taken my bath in the Yamunā River and purchased some things from here. Now let me go home. I have finished my tīrtha." But śāstra says, "No. That is not tīrtha." Janeṣv abhijñeṣu. If you want to purify yourself, then in the tīrtha you must find out abhijña. Abhijña means one who knows. One who knows. What that knowing? One who knows Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. One who must know who is Kṛṣṇa. This morning I met one gentleman. So in his house I saw that "Prabhu." So I asked him, "Who is that prabhu?" So he says, "He has no name." Just see the fun. He's living in Vṛndāvana. He does not know the name of prabhu. Just see his position. Prabhu is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhu means īśvara. Īśvara means controller. A prabhu means proprietor. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat

kiñcid asti dhanañjaya

[Bg. 7.7]

Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. These words are there. And he's living in Vṛndāvana; he does not know who is his prabhu. This thing is going on. (aside:) You can go behind him. Yes. This man is… You are dozing. Hm.

So, so long one will remain in the bodily concept of life, he cannot understand prabhu, or Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. So to understand this prabhu it requires many, many births. That is also said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Because foolish persons cannot understand prabhu. Another place Kṛṣṇa says,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuriṁ-bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

So this… We, our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to understand the prabhu, who is prabhu, who is the master, who is the Supreme Absolute. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: to understand the supreme prabhu, or master, or controller, and surrender unto Him. This is the process, simple process. That prabhu you can under…, cannot understand by mental speculation. That is not possible. Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na bahunā śrutena. There are many Vedantists, many scholars in Vedic literature, but they do not know who is his prabhu. They will say, "prabhu," but I ask him, "Who is your prabhu?" That they cannot say. Or they will not utter the name of the prabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. They will charge, they will call, "Brahmā," "Caitanya," "Paramātmā," "Prabhu," but he will never utter the name of Kṛṣṇa. This is their disease. This is called Māyāvāda disease. Therefore, because people are so poor in knowledge, alpa-medhasaḥ, brain substance is very little, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa Himself appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

That was detected by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

"My Lord, You are the most munificent incarnation, because people cannot understand even Kṛṣṇa, but You are distributing freely the love of Kṛṣṇa, the highest perfection of life, love of Kṛṣṇa." One may know Kṛṣṇa, but it is very difficult to know the love of Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā. Rūpa Gosvāmī… About the Gosvāmīs… They knew what is Kṛṣṇa, what is love of Kṛṣṇa. They wrote many books-Vidagdha-mādhava, Lalita-mādhava, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Actually… Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So actually to understand Kṛṣṇa, one has to follow the footprints of the six Gosvāmīs:

śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha,

śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha

ei chaya gosāñi yāra tāra mui dāsa

tāṅ sabāra pada-reṇu mora pañca-grāsa

You have to accept the six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana, who came here, who discovered Vṛndāvana. This Vṛndāvana is the discovery of the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī, they were first deputed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Otherwise, it was a big field only. Caitanya Mahāprabhu discovered the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. In this way, the Gosvāmīs were deputed, and Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī first of all established this Madana-mohana temple, then Govindajī. In this way all the city of Vṛndāvana… It is transcendental city, but it was begun by the inspiration, by the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu because He appeared to distribute Kṛṣṇa-prema. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. That is the highest perfection of life. Premā pum-artho mahān. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is premā pum-artho mahān, to achieve love of Godhead. That is the verdict of all śāstras.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

If you want really peace, then you develop your dormant love of God, Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy. Otherwise you'll never be happy. Because we want to love somebody. That is natural. So we have placed our loving propensity in so many things, even to cats and dogs, but that will not satisfy us, because that is sense gratification. That is not real love. Real love is to love Kṛṣṇa, love of Kṛṣṇa. So this is the highest philosophy of life, highest perfection of life, how to learn to love Kṛṣṇa. The Vṛndāvana means simply loving Kṛṣṇa. The cowherds boy, the gopīs, the Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodāmayī, Rādhārāṇī-the only focus is to love Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana does not mean a city or town or this or that. Vṛndāvana means where everyone is in love, in intense love with Kṛṣṇa. So you have come to Vṛndāvana. Try to learn how to love, intensified love, Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53].

So although we have got love propensity… Everyone loves somebody. But we are being frustrated, because that is not real love. Real love is to love Kṛṣṇa. You may execute your duties very nicely, but if you do not learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, this all discharging of your duties is simply working or laboring for nothing. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed ratiṁ yadi

śrama eva hi kevalam

[SB 1.2.8]

Śrama eva hi. So why this love is not invoked or awakened in us? Because we are covered by this material energy, and we have become conditioned by the material energy. Therefore, to purify ourself we require certain process. That process is called varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama. Varṇa means four divisions of the society: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And this varṇāśrama is created by Kṛṣṇa so that one day one may become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. The whole project is, Vedic project is, Vedic civilization… Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Vedic civilization means that to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is Vedic civilization. Vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd cāham. So the Vedantist means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last. That Kṛṣṇa explains, Vedānta explains. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. This is Vedānta. One who understands Kṛṣṇa, he is Vedāntist. Not the Pukkar(?). No. The so-called Vedāntists, they want to get out of Kṛṣṇa. They'll never accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. That is not Vedāntist. Real Vedāntist is here: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Jñānavān means one who has actually knowledge. Jñānavān. So real knowledge is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. This is knowledge.

So those who are followers of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu… Because He has come to distribute love of Godhead, immediately.

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ

sarvātma-snapanaṁ paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam

[Cc. Antya 20.12]

And this is verdict of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann asty eko mahān guṇaḥ. This Kali-yuga is a ocean of fault, simply faulty. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā [SB 1.1.10]. In this Kali-yuga people are…, duration of life is very short; and still, they are slow, mandāḥ, all bad; sumanda-matayo, and they have their different concoctions of ideology and philosophy, sumanda-matayo; manda-bhāgyā, very unfortunate; and upadrutāḥ, always disturbed. This is the position of this age. Therefore this Kali-yuga is full of faulty atmosphere. Kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann. Doṣa-nidhe: ocean of faults. But there is one opportunity. What is that opportunity? The opportunity is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, who is teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Distributing kṛṣṇa-prema. So in this Kali-yuga, although it is very faulty, people are very, very degraded, less than animals, still there is a great opportunity. And this opportunity is kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. You don't require to read Vedānta philosophy or this philosophy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu presented Himself: guru more mūrkha dekhi kahile vedānta nāhi adhikārā [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. He presented to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that His spiritual master saw Him a great fool. Therefore he said to Him that "You have no, I mean to say, access to understand Vedānta philosophy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This is the position. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "He, he taught Me one śloka." What is that? Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva… [Cc. Ādi 17.21].(devotees join in, finish verse) If you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become a first-class Vedāntist. You don't require to study. Of course, if you have got intelligence, if you have got stamina, Vedānta must be studied. And what is that Vedānta? Vedānta is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrāṇām **. Brahma-sūtra means Vedānta. This is the real bhāṣya, or commentary, on Vedānta-sūtra. The Vedānta-sūtra begins, janmādy asya yataḥ, athāto brahma jijñāsā. And Bhāgavata says, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. The same thing; a little different language. And janmādy asya śloka is beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād [SB 1.1.1]. In the Vedānta-sūtra the sūtra is janmādy asya yataḥ: "Absolute Truth is that from which or from whom everything emanates." Janmādy asya yataḥ. And Bhāgavata is explaining… That is commentary. What is that janmādy asya yataḥ? Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. Who is that source of knowledge? He must be abhijña. Wherefrom He got this knowledge? Svarāṭ. These things are explained.

So you are all fortunate. You have come to Vṛndāvana, perhaps for the first time in life. So it is very good opportunity. Vṛndāvana-dhāma. Aprākṛta, cintāmaṇi. Similarly, you are coming from Navadvīpa. That is also cintāmaṇi-dhāma [Bs. 5.29]. These two dhāma, places, are not ordinary places. Don't make dhāma-aparādha. As there are offenses against chanting the holy name, similarly, there are offenses in dhāma, that in the dhāma one should not perform any sinful activities in the dhāma. In the dhāma, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then it increases thousand times. Similarly, in the dhāma, if you commit offenses, it increases thousand times. So dhāma, one should be very careful not to commit any sinful activities. Illicit sex, or intoxication, meat-eating and gambling-these are the sinful activities. So Vṛndāvana-dhāma, aprākṛta dhāma. Those who are attached to viṣaya, sense gratification, they cannot see what is Vṛndāvana. They cannot see what is Vṛndāvana. They cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, those who are viṣayī. Viṣaya means āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. This is viṣaya, material objectives. They cannot. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings,

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana

kabe hāma herava śrī-vṛndāvana

Visaya chadiya, one who has become detestful to this material enjoyment, they can see what is Vṛndāvana. Those who are attached to material enjoyment, they cannot see what is Vṛndāvana. These are the process.

rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhabo sei yugala-pīriti

The ordinary artists, they are very much fond of painting pictures that Kṛṣṇa is embracing Rādhārāṇī. They won't paint picture in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness that Kṛṣṇa is killing Kaṁsa. Kṛṣṇa has two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So we should not try to understand Kṛṣṇa's love with the gopīs all of a sudden. It is very confidential. It is meant for the paramahaṁsas to understand. Let us understand Kṛṣṇa first of all. Of course, that is the aim, the higher understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau. But not all of a sudden. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa first. Therefore Vyāsadeva has compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, nine cantos to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning from the First Canto, First Chapter, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], Vedānta philosophy. Then he begins to write about Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities on the Tenth Canto. One has to understand Kṛṣṇa by studying nine cantos. Then if he tries to understand Kṛṣṇa from the Tenth Canto… Otherwise the mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11]. "Kṛṣṇa is like us, a young boy, and He's after so many young girls. So let us imitate." No. That is not understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa must be understood:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

When you understand Kṛṣṇa in that way, then, if you follow the footsteps of the ācāryas, śrī-rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti, then you'll be able to understand what is the loving affairs between Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī. Don't try to understand all of a sudden like ordinary boy and girl making their loving affairs. Then you'll fall down.

So this is my request, that you have come to Vṛndāvana; try to understand what is Vṛndāvana-dhāma, what is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but very cautiously, very, I mean to say, carefully. Then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. And Kṛṣṇa Himself, as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, He is present here. Go through śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsadi gaura…, so in this way, gradually, you'll be able to understand. But that is the highest perfection. Some way or other, if you can understand Kṛṣṇa and His Vṛndāvana… Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. If you… Kṛṣṇa and Vṛndāvana is nondifferent. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's place, Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, Kṛṣṇa's everything, they are not different. They are one. So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, that ārādhya-vastu, the worshipable Lord, is Kṛṣṇa. And as He is worshipable, His dhāma is also worshipable. We should not commit any offense in the dhāma, and follow the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we'll be favored by the grace of Kṛṣṇa to understand Him and His pastimes with Rādhārāṇī.

Thank you very much. (end)

740606LE.GEN

Lecture at World Health Organization

Geneva, June 6, 1974

Prabhupāda: So you can give some introduction. Then I'll speak.

Guru-gaurāṅga: So we are very honored to be able to address here today. Our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, not only is the founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which is a cultural organization with branches throughout the world, one hundred branches, but he's also an eminent writer. He has presented single-handedly, so far, six volumes of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which are going to be completed within sixty volumes, and other such books as Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. The monthly magazine of the Society distributes some one million copies per month. And the aim of this International Society for Krishna Consciousness, of which Śrīla Prabhupāda is the founder, is a cultural respiritualization of society. We have made so much progress in technology, in science, and yet there is a certain disparity in the society. The point of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Vedic scriptures is that any type of technology without fundamental spiritual technology cannot succeed. So it is in the hope of complementing the work of this World Health Organization by deepening its knowledge of the spiritual technology, which is equally important, if not more so, that we have requested this opportunity to speak to you.

Prabhupāda: So Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your participating in this meeting. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is based on the authority of this Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā, I think most of you know, Indians or foreigners. And some of you must have read Bhagavad-gītā. We have published Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. In the Bhagavad-gītā, the author of the Bhagavad-gītā is enounced as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the Hindus, especially the Vaiṣṇavas… Vaiṣṇava or not Vaiṣṇava, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. We… Our Indian spiritual life is guided by the ācāryas, sampradāya ācārya, the Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī and Nimbārka. There is… Whole Indian spiritual culture is dependent on the guidance of these ācārya. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also, in the Thirteenth Chapter, it is advised, ācārya upāsanam: "One should follow the instruction of the ācārya." That is our Vedic civilization. And in the Bhagavad-gītā, also, it is said in the fourth chapter, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The science of God… Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. This is a yoga system, this Bhagavad-gītā. So Kṛṣṇa says that "Formerly, this yoga system was spoken by Me to the sun-god, Vivasvān." And visvasvān manave prāhur, "Then the sun-god, whose name is Vivasvān at the present moment…" We get all information from the śāstra. Each and every planet has got a predominating personality. Just like we have got on this planet, a few presidents. But in other planets, there are also presidents, and their name is also… Because the duration of other planet is very, very great. The topmost planet, which is known as Brahmaloka, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Many millions of years, sahasra-yuga. One yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of solar years, and multiply it by one thousand. That becomes the duration of one day in the Brahmaloka. So in different planets, there are different duration of life, different standard of life.

So all these information we get from the Vedic scripture, just like Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Upaniṣad, like that. And we follow the instruction. That is good for human society. Human society, if they do not follow the footprints of great ācāryas, great saintly persons, then there will be trouble. And that is happening actually. In the Bhagavad-gītā, when Kṛṣṇa was…, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna was talking, so Arjuna presented the after-effects of war, that women will be widows and their, they will not be able to keep their character, and then adharma, irreligious principles, will begin. So he said… He was arguing like this, that,

adharmābhibhavāt kṛṣṇa

praduṣyanti kula-striyaḥ

strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya

jāyate varṇa-saṅkaraḥ

[Bg. 1.40]

The Vedic civilization is varṇāśrama-dharma. If the varṇāśrama-dharma is not properly protected, then there will be population who are called varṇa-saṅkara, mixed population. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-that is the natural division. The society must be divided… Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. (aside:) There is no need. The natural division… Just like you have got natural division in your body: the head, the arms, the belly and the legs, similarly, social divisions, there is. Some of them are very intelligent men, class of men, and some of them are martial-spirited persons, and some of them are interested in trades and industry, and some of them are interested only for filling up the belly. So this is natural division. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam. If this cātur-varṇyaṁ, this division… The most intelligent class of men, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. Śamo damo titikṣa ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. The social division must be there. The most intellectual class of men, they should be engaged in studying the Vedas and acquire the knowledge and spread it to the human society so that they may be guided and do the needful for peaceful situation of the society. That is the guidance. The kṣatriyas, they're meant for protecting the society, military power, or martial-spirited. When there is danger, attack, they'll give us protection. Similarly, there must be a class of men for producing food grain, and giving protection to the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. And the rest of the people, who cannot work as intellectuals or as martial-spirited persons or cannot take to production of foodstuffs, they should assist all these three classes of men. And they are called śūdras. This is the social division. So this is called varṇāśrama-dharma. The word dharma is used. Dharma means occupational duty. Dharma does not mean some religious sentiment. No. Natural division and the occupational duty.

So here Arjuna says,

adharmābhibhavāt kṛṣṇa

praduṣyanti kula-striyaḥ

strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya

jāyate varṇa-saṅkaraḥ

[Bg. 1.40]

So the precaution was to stop varṇa-saṅkara. Varṇa-saṅkara means, I mean to say, chaotic condition of these four classes of men. And next he says,

saṅkaro narakāyaiva

kula-ghnānāṁ kulasya ca

patanti pitaro hy eṣāṁ

lupta-piṇḍodaka-kriyāḥ

[Bg. 1.41]

There are so many talks about to keep the varṇāśrama intact for peaceful condition of the society, and the modern problem, the overpopulation… We… In the śāstras, in the Vedic literature, we don't find such thing as overpopulation, because the living entities are already fixed up. From the Padma-Purāṇa, we can understand that the living entities, they're very, very small particles of the supreme spirit soul, or God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. And their dimension is also mentioned, keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca: [Cc. Madhya 19.140] the one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. And jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeya sa anantaya kalpate. So the living entities are already ananta, unlimited. In another place of Upaniṣad, Kaṭhopaniṣad, we find that nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). These living entities, they are maintained. Their provision for their maintenance is already there, made by God. So there is no question of overpopulation. The question is varṇa-saṅkara. Varṇa-saṅkara, that is the problem. So the human life is meant for systematic organization of spiritual realization. That is human life. There is evolutionary process from low-grade life, from aquatics to trees, plants, from trees, plants to insects, from insects to birds, and then from birds to the beasts, from beasts to human being. So there are 8,400,000's of living entities in different species of life. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

So Kṛṣṇa, or God, claims that He is the seed-giving father of all these living entities. So as the father makes provision for maintenance of the sons and children, so God is not incapable. He has made provision for all these living entities. But when we mismanage, we become varṇa-saṅkara, there is calamity. So far I have studied-I am touring all over the world-there are enough place uncultivated. Especially I have seen in Australia and Africa, there is enough place that is not being utilized. In India also, there are enough places still. That is not being utilized. And Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. The maintenance of the living entities-bhūtāni means living entities-can be done by production of food grains. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Then parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. And then it is said, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavam [Bg. 3.14]. This formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā, that living entities, it doesn't matter whether animal or men, they are flourished, they are raised very nicely, provided there is anna. Anna means food grain. So we can produce enough quantity of food grains all over the world. And if we actually produce food grains, we can feed ten times of the population which are at present. But unfortunately, we are not producing food grains. That is the problem. It is not the problem of overpopulation. It is the problem that we are not producing food grains. This is clearly stated, that unless you have sufficient food grains, how you can maintain? They have taken a policy that they would not… Especially in the Western countries, I see that they will not produce food. They will raise some cattles and send them to the slaughterhouse for eating. This policy is going on. And this is not a very good policy. You produce your food grain. Why you should kill the innocent animals and eat them? So on account of these sinful activities, according to Vedic civlization, there are four kinds of sinful activities. One sinful activity is illegitimate, illicit sex life. According to Vedic civilization, without marriage, no sex life is allowed. Therefore marriage is compulsory. In every human society, there is marriage. But according to Vedic civilization, marriage is compulsory, saṁskāra. So therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, strīṣu duṣṭāsu vārṣṇeya jāyate varṇa-saṅkaraḥ. If the women are not married, then varṇa-saṅkara population will increase. It is said. And as soon as there is varṇa-saṅkara population, the whole world will be in chaotic condition.

So the, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are suggesting from the śāstras, from the Vedic literature, how to reorganize the human society. Actually, there is no scarcity of food, there is no scarcity of land. Everything, there is sufficient. From the Īśopaniṣad, we understand… Not only this planet; in every planet there is sufficient arrangement.

pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam eva avaśi…

[Iso Invocation]

It is factually complete. There is no problem. The problem is that we are not following the, I mean to…, the principles of life as they are enunciated, as they are enjoined. Dharma, the word dharma, it is not a, a religious sentiment. Dharma means occupational duty. So in the… From Vedic literature, we understand that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the laws given by God. Unfortunately, at the present moment, they have no information what is God and what is God's law and how to abide God's law. They're all in ignorance and they're manufacturing their own way of life, every day changing. This will not solve the problems of human society. If we actually follow the Vedic injunction, it is very simple thing. The whole idea is that everything belongs to God. Actually, that's a fact. This is the… Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything be… Now this United Nations, they're trying to be united, but actually, in the heart, they have got this, "This is my land," "This is my land." The American thinking, "This is my land." The German thinking, "Oh, it is my land." Indians thinking, "My land." Actually, there is no knowledge. Every land belongs to God. But they cannot come to this conclusion because they are godless, without any God consciousness. Actually, that's a fact. Just as the America, two hundred years ago, this land did not belong to the Americans. It was there already. So to whom it belonged? Similarly, everything… This is the statement of the Vedas: īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. If we accept this, if the United Nations makes this resolution, that "From this date, let us dissolve this so-called nationality, accept this whole planet belonging to us, all the human beings, all the animals, all the birds, beasts, trees, as they are on this planet," if we accept this philosophy, there is no question of chaotic condition of the society. Actually, that is the fact. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that whatever there is, property, on the land, on the sky, or on the water, anywhere, everything belongs to God. This is, some way or other, communistic idea, but it is spiritual communistic idea. The Communists, they are making their center as the state. The Bhāgavata makes the center as God. Everything belongs to God. The Communist says that everything belongs to the state, and the Bhāgavata says everything belongs to God. So from the idea, this is very nice idea. Now we are… Kṛṣṇa claims in the Bhagavad-gītā that "All the species of life, they are My sons. I am the seed-giving father." So the property is belonging to God, the supreme father, and we are the sons of God. Not only human being. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-yoniṣu: "All species of life." Therefore God has provided for everyone's sufficient necessities of life. For example, just like we are human beings, only 400,000's of species. But other species, they're eight million. Eighty hundred thousand species. In Africa, there are millions of elephants. They eat, at a time, fifty kilograms. Kg. What is that Kg?

Devotees: Kilos.

Prabhupāda: Kilos. But they are also eating. There is no scarcity of food for them. So it is a fact that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. But because we don't believe in God, we manufacture our own ideas; therefore we create simply chaotic condition.

So according to Bhagavad-gītā, as we are preaching, we are also opening centers, self-help center. In New Vrindaban, West Virginia, we have already opened a very big community center. We are going to open in California also, and we have already opened in India also, that we occupy a certain tract of land, we produce our own food, we keep our cows and take their milk, and there is no scarcity. Everything, there are. We don't require to go outside the land for our livelihood. So we are advising, we are making centers like that, that "Be self-sufficient. Save time for spiritual culture." That is human civilization. This was advised some thousands of years ago by Ṛṣabhadeva. I will recite some verses. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is stated in the Fifth Chapter of the Fifth Canto. It is said, Ṛṣabha uvāca. Ṛṣabhadeva was a, the emperor of this world. He was advising his sons. So he said,

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke

kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye

tato tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ

śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam

[SB 5.5.1]

This is the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva to his sons. "My dear sons, this human form of body, ayaṁ deha, this body, na, not…" Na ayaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Everyone has got a body. The cats and dogs, they are also possessing a body, and the human being also possessing a body. So what is the difference between the cats and dogs and human society? So Ṛṣabhadeva says, ayaṁ deha-bhājāṁ nṛlo…, kaṣṭān kāmān na arhati yad viḍ-bhujām. To accept too much labor for the necessities of life, kāmān… Kāmān means the necessities of life. This life, this human form of life, is not meant for that. It is meant for viḍ-bhujām, the hogs and dogs. They are… The hog is whole day working to find out "Where is stool? Where is stool?" The human life should not be like that. Human life should be very peaceful and prosperous and save time for spiritual culture. That is stated here. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1], for tapasya, tapasya, voluntarily accepting renouncement. This is human life. That is our Vedic principle, compulsory sannyāsa. There are varṇāśrama-dharma. So student life, brahmacārī; then married life, gṛhastha; then vānaprastha; then sannyāsa. That is tapasya. The brahmacārī is also trained up for austerity and penances. That is brahmacārī. The gṛhastha also… Because from brahmacārī life, they go to gṛhastha life, they are trained up in tapasya. Then again, at the age of fiftieth year, they give up the family life, they take vānaprastha. Only the husband and wife go out of home and travels all over the holy places. Then, when one is little trained up, he sends back his wife to the care of his grown-up children, and he takes sannyāsa. This is varṇāśrama-dharma. The so-called Hindu dharma, that is a gift of the Muhammadans. We don't find the word "Hindu" in any Vedic scripture. This "Hindu" word has come from the Muhammadan countries. They used to say the people of this part of the world, means, across the river Indus, they call "Hindas" or "Hindus." So actually, Hindu not…, that is not Hindu dharma. Our… From the Vedic literature, we understand the varṇāśrama-dharma, varṇāśrama: four varṇas and four āśramas. Varnāśramacaravata. In the Viṣṇu-Purāṇa, you'll find this word. In the Bhagavad-gītā, you'll find. In the Bhāgavata you'll find. So really Indian civilization or Aryan civilization, Vedic civlization, means varṇāśrama-dharma.

varṇāśramācāravatā

puruṣeṇaparaḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate puṁsāṁ

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

So this human form of life, here, according to the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva, is not meant for working hard simply for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is not human form of life. This is condemned in the śāstras. Human form, the civilization means they should mold the form of the society in such a way that easily we can live and save time for spiritual culture. Therefore it is said, tapo divyaṁ putrakā [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya, the spiritual culture, is necessary. Divyam. Tapasya. Tapasya means… There are so many scholars. They also undergo tapasya for finding out, discovering… Just like we have now discovered this atomic energy. That is also tapasya. Or something wonderful, discovery, that also, tapasya. But here it is said, tapo divyam: "Undergo tapasya, austerity, penances, for transcendental realization." Divyam. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. So we should undergo tapasya, penance, austerity, for transcendental realization. Divyam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā: [SB 5.5.1] "My dear boys, this life, human form of life, is not meant for working so hard like hogs and dogs. This life is meant for tapasya, and for transcendental realization." Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet. Sattva means existence. We exist, but this existence is not pure. Therefore we have to accept birth and death, old age and disease. This is not pure. Actually, we are living entities. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The living entity never takes birth, neither dies. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "This body being destroyed, the living entity is not destroyed." So as eternal part and parcel of the Supreme Lord… The Supreme Lord is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], eternal, full of bliss, and knowledge. But we have got this body, material body, which is full of ignorance, full of miseries and neither… It is only temporary. This is our position. Therefore tapasya should be executed, how we can also revive our original constitutional position, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. This is called śuddhyet sattva. Just like when a man becomes diseased, it is his duty to go to the physician, consult him, take some medicine to get out of the disease, similarly, human life is meant for to get out of this disease. What is that disease? Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9].

So there are so many nice things. And they are very, very beneficial for the human life. If we do not utilize the already information we have got in the Vedic literatures, so then this temporary program to save us, that will not solve the problem. It will never solve. The problems will be more intricate day by day, and it is stated in the Bhāgavata, that some day will come when there will be no food grains, no sugar, no milk, and no fruits, that these things will not be available. So these, they are all acting under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Prakṛti, this material nature… In the Bhagavad-gītā… It is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It is not blind. So there is some direction. It is very simple to understand. Just like my bodily activities are being carried under my direction. So similarly, the huge cosmic body, there is also a director. But we have no information. Or we have information, but we don't take, utilize it. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So they are simply seeing the wonderful activities of the material nature, but behind this material nature there is the direction of the Supreme Lord. So we have to study all this information and utilize for the social benefit. Then everything will be adjusted. If we simply become disturbed by the external symptoms, it is not possible to make them solved. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot make solution of the stringent laws of material nature. It will go on. Just like the fire. If you touch fire, it will burn your finger. It will not consider that… Even if you are a child, if you touch fire… The material laws are very stringent. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. So our only request is: Those who are working in the United Nations in so many different departmental situations, if they will take advantage of this great cultural book, Bhagavad-gītā, and try to study and, if possible, to implement in social life-everything is there-then people will be happy, and there will be no problem, and the chaotic condition will not exist.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guru-gaurāṅga: So as this was a colloquium, I hope you may have some questions you would like to ask. Vedic knowledge touches on everything from art, literature, science, technology, and overpopulation has already been discussed five thousand years ago in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So we hope we can share this knowledge with you. If you have some questions, His Divine Grace would be disposed to answer.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Swamijī, nobody will disagree with you that taking the world's population at its present level, and also the production at its present level, one can see that the distribution is very uneven. And it is also true, just leaving aside the predictions, the pessimistic predictions of demographers as to what will be the human population five hundred years from now or in the year 2,300 or whatever it is, but also leaving aside the deterioration of the environment as a result of wrong technologies that have begun here (?), it is true that, as you said, there is lot of scope of additional sources, food production and other resources if it is evenly distributed over the existing populations. Yet the fact remains that there are areas of the world where people are living in luxury, and they are guarding their rights, territorial ones, as you rightly said, national…

Prabhupāda: Yes. So-called nationalism.

Guest (1): …and on the other hand, there are river valleys overpopulated in certain parts of the world where people are living in misery. They are willing to work and they are willing to contribute their talent to the world in whatever way they can, and yet they have no opportunity.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Now, the problem is, eventually, of course, if we agree as you said, that everything belongs to God… And this idea is also, as you pointed out, in the, in the Bhagavad-gītā, but also in the Bible, they say, "The earth is the Lord's." And in the Koran also it is said that Al addha lila, which means the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): The idea has been there for thousands of years, but the question is, until this idea is accepted and put into practice the way you said, what is to be done in the interim period? Because lot of people are dying in misery and…

Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that…

Guest (1):. You see. What is the solution?

Prabhupāda: The solution is that… As soon as there is problem and you want solution… Suppose there is some problem in legal affairs. So you go to lawyer. When there is problems of your health, you go to the physician. Similarly, our Vedic instruction is for solution of this all chaotic condition, one should… Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigaccet samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. You have to approach persons who can make the solution. So that is, that is the injunction, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigaccet. Who is guru? Guru means śrotriyam, who knows all the Vedic literature, the information. Śrotriyam. And brahma-niṣṭham. Brahma-niṣṭham means completely God conscious. These are two qualifications. Those who are claiming that "I am God," cheating people, they are not gurus. Guru means he's always… Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya **. That is the definition of guru. Guru is accepted as good as God, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ, in all Vedic literature, tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, and those who are learned, advanced, they accept it. But what is the position of guru? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya: "Guru is the most confidential servant of God." That is his position. So people do not come to us, but we are going, canvassing. This is the position. Solution is there, but they do not come to us for solution. We are going door to door, all over the world, that "Here is the solution, sir. Here is the solution." But if they do not take, what can I do? This is our position. The solution is there. And we are canvassing that "Please take this solution." But they'll not take it. They'll not hear us. They'll hold big, big conference and talk all nonsense, and that's all. This is their business. And make the things more complicated. That's all.

Guest (1): Yes. Do you have any suggestions for…?

Prabhupāda: Suggestion is already I have given, that utilize this land for cultivation. I have seen so much land vacant. In Austria, Australia. Eh? Yes, Australia, and special… In U.S.A. also, there are so much land vacant. They're not utilizing… Whatever production, they… Sometimes they throw it in the water. And, I, I have heard in this Geneva, that there was excess of milk production. Therefore they want to kill twenty-thousand cows to reduce the milk production. This is their brain. Actually, there is no brain. So they, for brain, they should come to these śāstras. They should take guidance. Produce. Produce, utilize. But they'll not utilize. Rather, the limited number of people… At least in India, all the villagers, they have been drawn in the city for producing bolts and nuts. Now eat bolts and nuts. So, so Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi's program was that, village organization. And our big Pandit topsy-turvied everything. So Gandhi's program was very nice, to organize a… [break] …and produce your own food. If you work only three months, you get the whole year's provision. Whole year's provision. The balance time, you save. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. And be spiritually advanced. Be human being. Otherwise, it is risky. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. After all, we have to change this body; however big plan we may make, we have to give up this plan, and we have to change this body. But there is no guarantee what kind of body we are going to get. Suppose I, this time, this life, I am very busy for constructing a big skyscraper building, and next time, next life, if I get the body of a cat or dog, so I'll have to live in that house because I have got attraction as a cat and dog, and who will care for me? So these are the facts. Because nobody can change the nature's law. Nature's law is exactly like infectious disease. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. They do not even believe that there is life after death. I talked, in Moscow, a big professor, Kotovsky. He said, "Swamijī, after death there is nothing." You… He's a big professor. He has no knowledge of the soul. And he's a big professor. Just see. This is going on.

So as far as possible… Now, as gradually this godless civilization will go on-that is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata-there will be problems. Anāvṛṣṭi. Anāvṛṣṭi: there will be no rain. And durbhikṣa. As there will be anāvṛṣṭi, no sufficient rain, there will be no sufficient production. Actually, these things are already begun. Anāvṛṣṭi. And on the other side, taxation, the government taxation. In this way, people will be so much disturbed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇāṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam. They will be so much harassed because there will be no… There will be scarcity of rainfall, there will be scarcity of food, and there will be taxation. Then how one can keep the brain equilibrium? He will be mad. So unless we take the instruction of the śāstras… Immediately, we should take this instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavam, yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Therefore we have introduced this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement. This is yajña. In the Kali-yuga, this yajña is possible. So if all over the world… Or make an experiment in some portion. Just go. Just like we are making samples in West Virginia. They are self-sufficient. And the saved time is being utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the remedy. But they'll not take this remedy. They have got their own remedy. So a few men may be happy, so-called happy. The other day, I saw in Calcutta Mr. Kanunga. He's the son of late governor of Gujarat. So he said… He's the manager of that coal distribution, government… So he said that "Now, being government concerned, the laborers, they're not working. They're sitting idly. So we have to increase the price. Cost is…" So this is the problem. People, being godless, they are dishonest, they are not working honestly and so many things. The only remedy is that people should be taught to become God conscious. And this method is very simple: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva… [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. And samples are there, these European and American boys. They were addicted to so many bad habits. Now they are… Just see how sober they are, and they're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everything is possible, provided you people take our instruction. Otherwise, there is no other remedy. What can be done? The remedy's there. The medicine is also there. But if you don't take the medicine, how the disease will be cured?

Guest (2) (Indian man): I would ask the respected swamiji, you referred to the departure of the villagers to the city and getting in that city life and the villagers(?) become factory and all workers the evils which follow. And you suggested as a solution that if you live in the villages and work only for three months, then you'll have food to eat. But I'd like to point out that there is such a vast amount of unemployment in our villages in India. The vast populations are there doomed,(?) and despite all these settlements, (indistinct) are not able to make enough food because they don't own the land and they are not… They are unemployed. And that's why they go into the cities. It is not necessarily the good life in the city which attracts them, but they don't own the land. The land is owned by other people, and they are not free to live in the village as free men and grow enough food for them. Now this is a question of the means of owning of the means of production. And we still have the zamindar system. We still have the system, and the rich people are exploiting. They do. Unless there is some kind of a revolution by which you can curb the power of the landlord, how can you be for land distribution(?) of the village, of those who live in the village, and not go to city to pull a rickshaw or do other labor to…?

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can come in. Thing is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody's unemployed. That is good government. That is the Vedic system. The society was divided into four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And it was the duty of the government or the king to see the brāhmaṇa is doing brāhmaṇa's duty, and the kṣatriya's duty, uh, kṣatriya… His duty is the kṣatriya's duty. Similarly, vaiśya… So it is the government's duty to see that why people are unemployed. Then the question will be solved.

Guest (2): But they are the people who are also in the government.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (2): They are also… The entrenched(?) people, the monied people, landowners, they also have a strong voice in the government.

Prabhupāda: No. That, that means bad government.

Guest (2): Yes. That is, that is true.

Prabhupāda: That is bad government. Otherwise, it is the duty of the government to see that everyone is employed.

Guest (2): That's what I am looking forward to, the day when the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can become a real revolutionary movement which will change the face of society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it will bring revolution because the American and European young men, they have taken into hand. I have introduced to them. So I hope the European and American boys, they're very intelligent, and they take anything very seriously. So that… Now we are working for a few years, five, six years. Still, we have spread the movement all over the world. So I am requesting… I am old man. I will die. If they take it seriously, it will go on, and there will be revolution. Because we are not working whimsically, capriciously. We are taking authoritative version from the śāstra. And we are… Our program is to publish at least one hundred books of this size. There are so many information. They can read all these books and take information. And we are now being received. In America especially, the higher circle, in colleges and universities, they are reading now these books, and they are appreciating. So we are trying our best, introducing the literature, practically working, instructing, as far as possible. But I think if the, these boys, young boys, take it very seriously, it will bring revolution.

Guest (2): Is there a center in Geneva where this literature…?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Give…

Guru-gaurāṅga: We have a center in Petit-lancy, neuf(?) de Credo, with daily program, philosophy, classes, kīrtana, and general training.

Prabhupāda: You have not any literature having the address?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Give them.

Guru-gaurāṅga: This is our monthly magazine which we publish in French language, and this is a presentation book which shows the scope of our activities in the world. Our center is open, admission is free. There is no cost or pain to come, and if you only learn one thing, where is the question of loss? Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that everyone can win something for the benefit of everyone else.

Guest (3) (Indian man): There is one thing, Swamijī, if I may, which I cannot reconcile. As an Indian, the question bothers me very, very often. I believe in a great many things which you say. There's no question about that. I'm not a Westernized Indian. But what I cannot reconcile is the fact that we who had this Vedic knowledge and all the things which you have just now said is the solution to all our problems, with all this knowledge, we have not been able to keep our society free from so many evils to come… I'm not only referring to the poverty, but to the other things…

Prabhupāda: No. It is due to bad leaders. It is due to bad leaders.

Guest (3): They are our own people. They…

Prabhupāda: They may be own, your father. Just like Prahlāda's father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon. So what can be done? Prahlāda was a devotee, and his father was a demon.

Guest (3): Yes. He has to be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: So he was destroyed. He'll be destroyed. They are being destroyed. These demonic leaders will not stay. They'll be destroyed. But everything takes some time. Just like I told you that Gandhi, he understood the pulse of the country. He wanted to reorganize the villages, but our big Paṇḍitajī topsy-turvied everything.

Guest (3): Yeah, and we killed him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): That was the first thing.

Prabhupāda: And we killed him, Gandhi. Yes. So this is… Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. If a mūrkha is advised to do something, he becomes angry. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ visa-vardhanam. So at the present moment, our Indian leaders are not very good. Blind. They have no knowledge, and they are leading. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They have killed our original Vedic culture, and they cannot give anything. Gandhi wanted to give something, but he was also killed. What can be done?

Yogeśvara: I can show them our book, Moscow Talks.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogeśvara: We have the Moscow Talks book here, your conversation with Professor Kotovsky.

Guru-gaurāṅga: You may see that in this presentation book we have a center in Māyāpur, in Navadvīpa, in West Bengal. We are distributing Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. There is no problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In all our centers, we distribute prasādam. Anyone who may come, "Take prasādam."

Guest (4) (Indian man): Has the movement involved itself in social philosophy, then? Because sometimes I'm sure you, if you propagate your good will, the moral path…

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are spreading the best moral principle, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (4): But don't you come… (sound of jet drowns out) …who don't like you? Does it not mean a bit of problem?

Prabhupāda: We are getting a better response from the Western countries than in India. In India, we see that the leaders, they do not like it. They are now opening beef shop, wine shop, and we are preaching "No intoxication, no meat-eating." So actually, we are not very favorable to their propaganda. (laughs) They don't like us, the leaders. Now there are big, big signboards. In Juhu we have got a center, and the government has opened beef shop, very big. And wine shop, you'll find everywhere. And we are preaching, "No intoxication, no meat-eating." So how they'll like us? That is the difficulty. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." But still, we are struggling.

Guru-gaurāṅga: The value of this movement is that if we can prove on a small level, on a model level, that it works, then any scientific man… This is the empirical method. If it works on a small level, it shall work on a large level.

Guest (5) (Indian man): Yeah, like what?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Well, for example, Isaac Newton discovered gravity. That discovery was a universal discovery. It was an axiom. If it works here, it will work anywhere.

Guest (5): No. That I understand. But I mean in regard to your own work, can you give an example of something having worked that…, whatever you mean by work?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Yes. Cultivating the land, for example. We have communities. New Vrindaban, in West Virginia; California. We are establishing in France. We can absorb as many people as wish to come, and we can feed them all, and we still have surplus in foodstuffs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Virginia, it has proved very successful. We are getting eighty pounds of milk daily. And from that milk…

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Eight hundred.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eight hundred. Yes. Eight hundred, I am sorry. So that milk product is sufficient for give them nutritious food. We are preparing ghee. Just like in India, they utilize milk so nicely. And vegetables we are growing. They are making sweetmeats, sandeṣa, rasagullā. There is enough milk product. And ghee, luci, purī. They are satisfied. So that is the basic principle.

Guest (5): This is just an example of a successful corporative enterprise which is… But would you speak something new which has not been tried before?

Prabhupāda: No. The new thing is that they do not go outside for bread. That is the new thing. Here, at the present moment, in every big, big city, they are coming from hundred miles to the office. Now there was railway strike in Bombay. I was there at that time. Oh, people are suffering so much. You see? From five o'clock in the morning, they are standing in queue for catching one… Not bus, it is truck. The buses on strike. So people are so much in difficulty. And if one train or two train was running, so many people smashed the… They were on the top of the train. So the problem is why one should be induced to go hundred miles off from his home for earning his livelihood? This is a very bad civilization. One must have his food locally. That is good civilization.

Guest (5): Yeah. What do these people do for a living? Only grow food?

Prabhupāda: No. Grow food for eating, and then they read all these books. They become spiritually advanced. That's all. Deity worship.

Guest (5): And did you need money?

Prabhupāda: Well, we get money. We sell these books also. If they require money, there is money also. But we live very simple life. Whatever little necessity of money is there, that we can gather by selling these books. Even in Indian parliament, the question was raised, "Wherefrom this ISKCON movement gets their money?" Some Communist member raised this question. And the home member replied, "They get money by selling literature." That's a fact.

Guest (6) (European man): I would like to ask also a question. In your rural communities… I call them rural because from what you said, the main purpose is to be self-supporting as regards food. In your rural communities, do you utilize the most modern techniques with fertilizers, with mechanical means for cultivating land? This is one question. The other is that obviously, from what you say, the necessary money for buying anything else, that is provided by the selling of your books. Of course, if you would imagine communities having not, as you have, something which (indistinct), and therefore books which can be sold, such communities would not be eased to be self-supporting in regards to everything. Food is also there. And if, by any chance, would your system…? Supposing we could transform all the members of the Swiss community into peasants, having their piece of land and living in rural communities, I suppose from what I know that many would starve and would have not sufficiently to eat because conditions here, conditions of climate, etc., are not of the same category of the ones which may exist in Asia or in other countries. The basic problem is that in former centuries most of the male population of that country which population was mainly composed of peasants had to expatriate and become soldiers abroad because there was not enough food. So what do you say about these things?

Yogeśvara: His first question was do we use machines and modern methods on our āśramas and farms.

Prabhupāda: We have no objection. We want to be self-sufficient. That is our point of view. We have no objection with… It is not that we don't touch machine. We don't say like that. But we want to be self-sufficient. That is our point. We have not taken a vow that we shall not touch any machine. No, no. We're not like that.

Guest (6): Well, I think it's an admirable objective. Certainly it can be realized in small rural communities which acquire the necessary surface to have each member in the community to be self-sufficient. Like in the Middle Ages in this country the monks were more or less self-sufficient within the frame of their land. But outside this, the peasants were really always hungry.

Guru-gaurāṅga: He says that on a small level that may be valid like the monks who have their monastery and they made food enough, but for most people, especially where the climate is so unfavorable… He said that the Swiss people, they could not even stay on the land in the past, but they had to go away to find food because of the climate. So on the whole he does not see the practicality.

Prabhupāda: Well, after all, this is material world. The miserable conditions are there. But as far as possible, try to minimize. Our only aim is how to save time for spiritual cultivation. That is our main aim. So we have to find out the opportunity according to the time, circumstances. We, we do not reject anything. Whatever is favorable, we accept.

Yogeśvara: So, in other words, the absolute platform that you were speaking of where everyone would be engaged in that kind of rural cultivation of the ground isn't any kind of long term goal for us necessarily. We have our small communities, and then there's also activity going on in other areas as well. But the idea in our spiritual master's describing, as far as possible we utilize every opportunity for advancing in spiritual life, whether it be by cultivating the ground or whatever occupational duty we may have to perform.

Guest (6): But I understand that your goal is to have everybody becoming self-supporting in regards to food. But if everyone who is engaged in food production, who will be providing other things?

Yogeśvara: He thinks that we have been saying that ultimately we'd like everyone to be engaged in food production. Is that our…?

Prabhupāda: No. We don't say that. According to the Bhagavad-gītā, the…, there is a section of men who will produce food, there is a section of men who will be spiritually elevated, and there will be section of men who will manage as the government or the king, and the balance men, they're all śūdras. They'll help these three men. This is Bhagavad-gītā. Not that everyone will be cultivator. No. There must be management, and there must be brain also, and there must be worker also. This should be… This is natural division. But all should combine together for spiritual cultivation. Just like we have got our brain, our arms, our belly, our legs. They're all required. We cannot reject the legs and keep only hands. That is not possible. But the hands, leg, brain and belly should combine together to keep the body healthy. That is the aim. So we shall now go?

Guru-gaurāṅga: So if there are no other question, I guess we can take leave of each other and thank you very much.

Yogeśvara: Kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: Yes, have saṅkīrtana.

Guru-gaurāṅga: There is more prasāda. We have brought this for you. So we hope you'll take. You can… (end)

740614LE.PAR

Lecture at the Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival

at La Salle Pleyel

Paris, June 14, 1974

Prabhupāda:

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda

śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda ki jaya

[I offer my obeisances to Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Prabhu Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Gadādhara, Śrīvāsa and all others in the line of devotion.]

[break] …kindly taking part in this saṅkīrtana movement. (translated into French throughout by Jyotirmayī dāsī) This saṅkīrtana movement means vibration of the transcendental sound. In the beginning of creation, sound is the origin of all creation. That is admitted in the Bible also. (aside:) Where is that paper? Yes. Read it. We are reading a passage from your Bible.

Nitāi: The Gospel according to St. John, Chapter One. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men, and the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not."

Prabhupāda: Where it is? So the same thing explained in the Vedic literature. Here it is said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." So God being Absolute Truth, there is no difference between God, His form, His qualities, His words and everything relating to God. That is also God. Just like in the material world the name and the subject, or the substance, they are different. Just like when you are thirsty, you simply utter the word "water, water," it will not quench your thirst. But in the spiritual world, the name "God," or "Kṛṣṇa," and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, They are the same. Just parallel to this Bible passage I'll quote one Sanskrit verse from the Vedas. Therefore it is said,

nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś

caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ

pūrṇaḥ śuddho nitya-mukto

'bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ

[Cc. Madhya 17.133]

Namely, the name of God is as powerful as God is Himself. It is called pūrṇa. Pūrṇa means complete. And śuddha. Śuddha means without any material contamination. Pūrṇaḥ śuddha nitya. Nitya means eternal. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ means without being different from the person whose name we are chanting.

The idea is that when we chant the holy name of God-just like "Kṛṣṇa"-Kṛṣṇa is present there. As soon as you chant God's name… Not necessarily that he will have to chant the name Kṛṣṇa… Any other name which you know that it is God's name, you can chant it. God has got many names, and they can be chanted by different languages in different countries. The effect is the same. Practically, God has no name, but His name is given according to His activities. Just like we are chanting God's name "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means "all-attractive." So God is all-attractive. We can have the idea how we consider attractiveness in this material world. One is attractive in this material world if he is very rich, if he is very powerful, if he is very wise, if he is very beautiful. In this way, in six ways one becomes the most attractive. The statement is there in the Vedic literature:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

ṣaṇṇāṁ iti bhaga ganā

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Means God is all-attractive by six features: that He is the richest of all, He is the strongest of all, He is the most beautiful, He is the most wise, He is the most renounced order, and He is most famous.

So our position, we all living entities, all the living entities or the human being who are sitting in this hall, we are all sons of God. (someone calls out "No," and there is a little applause, Prabhupāda chuckles) It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that… You find out this verse,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yaḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

Read it. You read it.

Nitāi:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yaḥ

tāsāṁ mahad-yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: So according to Vedic conception, any living entity, in any form of life, they are all part and parcel of God. (someone yells out, "No!" and yells some things in French) Your Bible says that in the beginning there was word only, and the word is God. So before the creation, the God was there. Then all the created creatures, wherefrom they came? They came from God. It is clearly stated in this verse, "All things were made by Him." So original creator of everything was God. Everything means including all, not only a certain person or certain thing. Everything means everything, all. So all things were made by God means…, "made by Him" means that all these creatures… There are different creatures, 8,400,000. They were created by God. One who creates, he is the father. Just like in the material sense also, a father creates his children. So how can you say "No"? Because here in the Bible it is said that "All things were made by Him, created by Him." Therefore He is the father of everything. "And without Him was not anything made that was made." So you cannot deny the authoritative statement of Vedas or Bible by your whimsical way. When you go to your church, you ask, "Father, give us our daily bread." That means He is father of everyone. This is perfect knowledge, that God is father of everything that is made. Here it is clearly stated, "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." That is also statement of the Vedānta-sūtra, the most perfect philosophy of Vedic language. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā, means "This human life is meant for inquiring about God." So the first understanding of God is that He is the creator of everything.

So the present Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for understanding God. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is started not now, say, in your country, Western countries say, for the last six or seven years, but the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is on this planet for the last five thousand years. When I say Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it means God consciousness. So human being, human life, is meant for understanding God and become God conscious. In the animal life there is no possibility of understanding God. When we invite by advertisement, "Please come here in this meeting. We shall discuss something about God," the human being comes, not the cats and dogs. This is… (big applause) So human being is the chance given by nature to understand about God. If we do not take chance, if we do not fulfill this chance-that means we have got this chance to understand God-then our next life may not be human being. The soul is within your body. The soul is the part and parcel of God. If you try to understand what is the soul, then partially you understand what is God. If you study yourself, then you study to some extent what is God, because you are the sample of God. It is also stated in the Bible that human being is made under the image of God. So if you study yourself-that is called meditation-then you can understand what is God. Therefore the yoga system is recommended. Those who are in bodily consciousness of life, for them, this meditation yoga, or to understand oneself, that is very important thing. If you try to understand yourself, very simple method… You take your finger. You ask yourself whether you are finger, the answer will be "No, I am not finger. It is my finger." Everyone will say, even a child will say, "This is my finger, my hand, my leg, my head." Nobody will say that "I leg, I finger, I head." Nobody will say. Therefore the conclusion should be I, the soul, is different from this material body. The material body changes on account of presence of the soul. Just like a child gets a different body like a boy; a boy gets a different body like a young man. Similarly, young man gets another body as an old man. Every one of us can consider that "I had a small body of child. I had a small body of boy. I had a youthful body. Now I have got this old body." By this simple study, I can understand that I am different from the body. And because I am eternal, in all forms of body I was existing. That I can understand also.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "After the destruction of this body, I, the soul, I am not destroyed. I continue to live." The soul is eternal. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Eternal, very old, still, after the destruction of the body, the soul is never destroyed. Death means destruction of this outer, gross material body. Every day, every night we have got experience: the body lies down on the bed, but with my subtle body-mind, intelligence and ego-I dream and I go somewhere else from my bedroom. So this is going on daily in our experience, that I leave this gross body, I take my subtle body, and I do something else, although my body is here. The conclusion is therefore that I, the soul, am changing my body from the gross to the subtle, from the subtle to the gross. In our daily life we have got experience that I accept this subtle body. The subtle body is there. There is no question of acceptance. But with the subtle body I dream, and again when the dream is over, then I come to this gross body. So death means when the subtle body carries the soul to another gross body, not this gross body, that is called death. So this subtle body-means mind, intelligence and ego-that carries me to another body according to the nature of my mind. At the time of death, as the mind is absorbed, I mean to say, full of thoughts, according to that full of thoughts, we are given another gross body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that anta-kale, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Bhāvam, the attitude, the modes of the mind at the time of death, will carry me to the next gross body. Therefore it is necessary to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to get after death. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "After death, the soul," tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], "gets another body." Now, we can see in our experience, there are so many different types of bodies. There are 900,000 species of bodies in the water. There are two million different types of bodies in the vegetables kingdom, means the trees and plants. There are eleven hundred thousand species of life in the insect kingdom. There are one million types of bodies in the bird kingdom. And there are three million types of bodies in the beast life. And there are 400,000 species of body in the human society. Out of them, the civilized man is considered to be perfectly in bodily situation.

So this human form of body is given to us by nature to understand God. In other forms of life there is no chance of understanding God. Therefore it is our duty, everyone's duty, before the next death comes, we must understand what is God. If we simply misuse this body like cats and dogs, then we are missing the chance. We cannot say that we are free. That is not possible. We are completely under the control of the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇair karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

iti manyate mūḍha

[Bg. 3.27]

That we, everyone of us, at the present moment in our conditional state of life, we are completely under the, I mean to say, mercy or care of the material nature. There are three modes of material nature, namely goodness, passion and ignorance. When we are under the control of this material nature, we associate with either of these qualities. If we associate with the quality of goodness, then we are promoted in the higher world. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā

adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

[Bg. 14.18]

Means "Those who are associating with the modes of material nature goodness, they will be promoted to the higher planetary system. Those who are associating with the modes of passion, they'll remain in the middle planetary system." [break]

So as it is said that in the beginning was the word, that means before the creation there was the transcendental sound. So that word, or transcendental sound, is not like the material sound. If we associate with the transcendental sound Hare Kṛṣṇa, then we become purified to become transcendental. Just like we can have a crude example. You take one iron rod and put into the fire. The iron rod will be warm, warmer, and gradually it will be red hot. When it is red hot, then it is no longer the iron rod; it is fire. So how it has become fire? By association with the fire. Simply, therefore, if you simply keep yourself touch with God by the vibration of transcendental sound, gradually you become godly. So as soon as you become godly, you become the same quality-aiśvaryasya samagrasya: full riches, full power, full strength, full knowledge, everything full. Therefore the Vedic instruction is tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ: "Don't keep yourself in darkness. Come to the light." So our only request is at the present moment, the whole world is for want of godly understanding. They are in darkness. So our duty is, when we have got this privilege of this human form of life, we should not keep ourself in darkness. Darkness means without any knowledge of the soul and God. So long I am thinking that "I am this body," it is in darkness. Except the human being, any other living being, they are all in darkness. Therefore human being's business is not to keep himself in darkness, but come to the light. So long we have got this material body, there are four necessities of life. They are eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense. So the cats and dogs, they also eat, they sleep, they have sex life and they can defend also. So therefore a human being should not be educated only for these four principles of animal necessities. The human necessity is to understand God. Therefore in civilized human society, there is some system of religion. Either you call it Christianity, Muhammadanism, or Hinduism, in civilized society there must be some form of religion. And a human being is supposed to follow the principles to have complete knowledge about God and himself, to know "What is the relationship between God and me?" and what is the goal of life.

So it doesn't matter whether you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim. The real purpose of life is to know God. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt bhagavat-praṇītam: Dharma, or religion, means the codes given by God. Just like in the state we have got practical experience. We, if we abide by the laws of the state, then we are good citizen, peaceful citizen… (yelling noises and applause in the audience) (aside:) What is that?

Jyotirmayī: They don't like this because they don't like the laws of the state. So when you use the example of the state, they don't like it.

Prabhupāda: You may not like, sir, but if you do not follow you will be punished. (boos and yells) Anyway, if you do not follow the codes and laws of the state or God, then certainly you will be punished. (yelling) You may declare independence, but there is no, I mean, the possibility of such independence. That requires knowledge. (someone yelling)

Jyotirmayī: He is saying that there are some people who would like to ask some questions.

Prabhupāda: So immediately if you want to put some questions, then I can stop. Or if you want me to go on speaking I will speak. As you like. (more yelling) We can stop speaking?

Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī will say we can have questions after you finish.

Prabhupāda: No, we can finish it now.

Jyotirmayī: (French)

Prabhupāda: So now let us conclude that there is God and God's word, or God's vibration, means God is person. As soon as we accept the word of God, then we have to conclude that God is a person. Just like you are vibrating some words, I am vibrating some words. This means both of us, we are all persons. So the word of God and God is not different. But God is person and He speaks. If He speaks, then He hears, He smells, He eats-everything. All the activities are there. If He cannot hear, then our prayer to Him, "O God, give us our daily bread," is useless. So from this statement of the scripture, either you take it Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, it is understood that God is a person like you. That is the statement of the Vedas, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), namely that God means He is the supreme being. In the dictionary also it is stated, "God means the Supreme Being." We are all beings, but God is the Supreme Being. Just like in every state, there are citizens, but there is one chief citizen. He is president or something like that. (noise in the audience)

Jyotirmayī: They don't like this government example.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not example. It is stated in the Vedic literature. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is the chief living being amongst all living beings. God, is eternal; we are also eternal. God is also a living being; we are also a living being. This is the meaning. But God is one; we are many. And what is the significance of that one? That is stated: eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. "That one is maintaining so many living beings." That is God. So because He is a person, we are also person, but He is the person who maintains us. Therefore we go to God and beg for our daily bread. So our constitutional position is that we are predominated, and God is predominator. We are very small; God is very great. At the present moment we are defying this position; therefore we are in trouble. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are educating people that "You are always subordinate to Kṛṣṇa. You surrender unto Him and you be happy. Do not remain in rebellious condition of life. Just surrender to God and you will be happy." That is the final conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So you are planning, we are planning so many things to become happy, but everything is failure. But if you take this plan, "Let us surrender to God," then every problem will be solved. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not that, that "You are Hindu. You become Christian," or "You are Christian. You become Hindu." That is not our plan. Our only request is that "Every one of you, you try to understand God, love Him and be happy." The final conclusion in the Bhagavad-gītā is that if you want to be peaceful, if you want the peace of your mind, you should understand three things. That three things are that to understand that God is the supreme enjoyer. This is one. He is the proprietor of everything, and He is friend of everyone. If you learn these three things only, very scientifically, that God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer, and God is the supreme friend of everyone, then your life is successful. And these simple things will be understood by you by chanting God's name: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Hare means the energy of God, and Kṛṣṇa means God, all-attractive. Similarly, Rāma means God. So there are three words in this verse: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare: Hare, Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. So anyone can chant these three names, Hare, Kṛṣṇa and Rāma, and make his life successful. I hope you shall join us in this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.

Jyotirmayī: They want to ask questions.

Prabhupāda: That you arrange. That arrange. No, you can ask. That's all.

Question: (French) (big applause)

Jyotirmayī: So he is saying that "You have been explaining what is God according to Bible and Bhagavad-gītā." So he wants to know if to be able to talk in that way you have met God, you have seen God, and if God has given you the authority for being seated on this vyāsāsana and receiving the obeisances of your disciples.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can also get this position. If you know God and if you can speak about God, then you are also welcome to sit here and speak about God.

Jyotirmayī: (translating) He says that the only thing he can say about God is that he cannot talk about God.

Prabhupāda: Why? You can talk about everything, and why not about God?

Jyotirmayī: (translating) "Because God is one who cannot be seen, cannot be taken to be understood."

Prabhupāda: But that is your statement. But the Bible statement, Bhagavad-gītā statement is different. Why shall I take you as authority?

Jyotirmayī: (translating) He says that God means freedom, and God will not be…

Prabhupāda: How do you know it? First of all let me know how you know it about God that He is freedom or this or that. How you know it?

Jyotirmayī: (translating) "Because everyone has inside him knowledge of God, and one just has to listen within himself and he will know."

Prabhupāda: So I have got my own knowledge of God as you have got. Why you disagree with me?

Jyotirmayī: (translating) He says but he doesn't sit on a throne and he doesn't ask people to pay obeisances in front of him.

Prabhupāda: So if you want to hear me, I can get down from the throne. (big applause and yells) (some man makes an announcement in French) (general talk in French and many people yelling things out from the audience)

Jyotirmayī: He is saying two things. He is saying that when one wants to understand, he must act as a student.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good, very good. (people still yelling) Now let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant. (end)

740619LE.GER

Public Lecture

Konigstein, Germany, June 19, 1974

Prabhupāda: …because it is full of cheating, full of mistake, full of illusion, imperfectness, then how you can understand the thing or the person who is beyond your perception? That is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. This is Vedic instruction, that "Things which are beyond your perception, don't try to understand by this foolish argument and logic." Don't try to understand. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā. Acintya means beyond your conception. Cintya means within you perception, and acintya means beyond your conception. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa. You cannot understand by this rascal logic and philosophy. That is not possible. Then how it is to be understood? There are many places. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. These blunt senses, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's qualities, Kṛṣṇa's activities-you cannot understand. Then I have got this… This is my, in possession. How can I understand Kṛṣṇa? That is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord. Now, this is also another peculiar thing, that to understand by the tongue, not by the mind. Tongue. Tongue means we have got two businesses we perform with the tongue. One is tasting foodstuff and vibrating voice. So you use the tongue vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam-bas. Then you understand Kṛṣṇa. You don't understand, but He reveals.

And actually that is happening. All over the world, these young boys and girls, because they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and because they are eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam, now they are developing their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are not Vedantist. They have not studied all the Vedas. But how they are understanding? If they are not understanding Kṛṣṇa, how they are sticking to this life? In this life everything is forbidden: no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. Everything no. Material life finished. Why they are sticking unless they are understanding Kṛṣṇa? This is the proof. The more you stick to these principle, sevonmukhe jihvādau, engage your tongue in two business-chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda-your life will be perfect.

Thank you very much. [break] Any question?

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā that "Of all the senses, I am the mind."

Prabhupāda: You first of all question on the topics we have finished. Of course, this is also pointing… What is your question? Go on.

Devotee (1): Well, you explained that we have three kinds of miseries: ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika and ādhidaivika. So ādhyātmika is the misery also of the mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): How can I understand?

Prabhupāda: Well, the, a mind is sometimes not in order. That is ādhyātmika. Suppose somebody comes to me and asks some question. I am not thinking, but…(?) "Well, later on I shall say." That means mind is not in order. You are hearing Bhagavad-gītā, but your mind may be somewhere else. So there is… This is mind's disease, rejecting and accepting. There is mind's disease; there is bodily disease. That is called ādhyātmika.

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says according to your, as you said, learn to tolerate. Learn to endure, toleration. And what… How can one be better equipped to tolerate these despairs and miseries of our human existence?

Prabhupāda: The more he understands that he is not body. The more he understands that "I am not this body," then he can tolerate. And if we become disturbed by the pains and pleasure of the body, then we shall forget our real business. Our real business is to get out… I am not this body, but this human body is a chance how to get out of this body. That is my real business. So if we are disturbed by these bodily pains and pleasure very much, then I forget my real business. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised, taror api sahiṣṇunā.

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

[Cc. Ādi 17.31]

Tṛṇād api sunīcena. Just like grass. Everyone is trampling over the grass. The grass does not protest. Therefore humbler than the grass. And tolerant than the tree. In this way we shall have to keep our position in this material world and advance in spiritual consciousness. If we become disturbed, then we cannot make progress. Suppose we are prohibiting so many things. Especially in the Western world, this is very painful. But you have to tolerate. If you want to get out of this body, you have to tolerate. Actually it is not painful. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is not difficult. It is very easy. It is not very. So any other question?

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, how does one develop his desire, then, to get out of this body?

Prabhupāda: No desire. No material desire. Simply think of how to push on this movement. That desire and no other desire. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. No material desire. Śūnyam. Make zero all material desires. Simply desire, "How shall I push on? How shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? How shall I decorate this?" Therefore we have given so many engagements, to divert the desire. Desire cannot be stopped. That is not possible. Those foolish persons are: "Become desireless." That is not possible. Desireless means I am dead. No. Purify desire. Purify desire. You have got the desire for driving motorcar. Just drive motorcar for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) You see? This is the… Change the quality of the desire. Desire cannot be stopped. That is not possible. I want to eat very nice foodstuff. All right, eat remnants of foodstuff. We offer Kṛṣṇa the best food. That is the regulative principle. Kṛṣṇa also should be offered the best foodstuff, and you take the remnants. Kṛṣṇa is not so hungry that He is… He is taking, but He is leaving also. That is Kṛṣṇa's eating. Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi: [Bg. 9.26] "Anyone who is offering Me these foodstuff made of patraṁ puṣpam, vegetable and food grains and milk and this…" He never says, "Give Me meat or eggs." No. He never says. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. These foodstuffs we can prepare nicely in so many ways, and Kṛṣṇa says, "If somebody offers Me with faith and love, I eat it." Now, the question is, you see that "Whatever I offer, these things are there. How Kṛṣṇa has eaten?" Therefore His eating process is different. But He has eaten. That you have to learn from the śāstra, that pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. He is not hungry; still, He can eat the whole world. But still, the world remains as it is. That will require some brain to understand. (laughter) Kṛṣṇa eats. Kṛṣṇa eats and again keeps the whole thing as it is for your eating. So you are not loser. If you offer to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will eat and He will again get you the foodstuff for eating. That is His fullness. That is His fullness. So therefore you prepare very, very nice foodstuff and offer to Kṛṣṇa and take it. Then your desire for eating nice foodstuff will be automatically fulfilled. And at the same time become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you do this? Anyone can do, either in this temple or at home. But they will not worship Kṛṣṇa. They will worship a dog. Instead of God, keeping dog and taking all care. This is the mentality. Then next life he becomes a dog. Because he has got good faith and love for dog, therefore he becomes dog. And if you have got good faith and love for Kṛṣṇa, you become a body like Kṛṣṇa. Unless you have got the same type of body, how you can play with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa? Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti… [Bg. 4.9]. If you become a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body, you get a body like Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], and live eternally, blissful life of knowledge. That should be the aim of life. All right, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

740622SP.GER

Public Speech

Bad Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

Prabhupāda: (translated into German by German devotee) …for this civilized human form of body. We have to pass through 900,000 forms of aquatic body within the water. Then gradually we come to the form of trees and plants. They are two million varieties. Then we get the bodies of the insect. There are 900,000 forms of body. Then we enter into the species of birds, one million forms of body. Then after bird's body, there are three million different varieties of beast's body. Then after this period, we become human body, but there are 400,000 species of human body. And thus we get this nice human form body with good brain and good consciousness. So it should be utilized properly. By the laws of nature… Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. This is the law of nature. Gradually we develop different types of body and different types of consciousness. So when we come finally to God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the perfection of life.

So we are living in this planet, but in other planets also there are different forms of life. So there is one planet… There are many millions of planet. Specifically, there is one planet within this universe that is called Siddha-loka. There is other planet also, heavenly planet, Brahmaloka planet, and in different planets there are different species of life, different standard of comforts, but in the higher planetary system, the standard of comfort is more and more, thousand times more, thousand times more, in this way. Just like in this planet we have got different standard of life. In your Western countries your standard of life is… At least, it is to be understood more comfortable than other standard of life. In this way, if you promote yourself to the topmost planetary system, which is called Brahmaloka, then you get your duration of life, many millions of years. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. In the Brahmaloka planet, the residents, they have got their one day. One day means daytime, not nighttime, twelve hours, say. That is equal to… Their twelve hours is equal to our millions of years, sahasra-yuga. Sahasra-yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand. That is called sahasra-yuga. Such is the, the such duration of time is equal to twelve hours in the Brahmaloka planet. So even if you go to the Brahmaloka planet… You read that, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. Read it.

Satsvarūpa:

ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ

punar āvartino 'rjuna

mām upetya tu kaunteya

punar janma na vidyate

[Bg. 8.16]

Prabhupāda: So our natural tendency is to go to other, better planet. Therefore people are trying to go the moon planet. Similarly, you can go to the sun planet, you can go to the Brahmaloka planet, Siddhaloka planet, heavenly planet. There are so many. But the information is, even though you reach the topmost planet of this universe, still, there the four principles of material life, namely birth, death, old age and disease, are there. So we can go to the topmost planet. There is process how to go:

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā

adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

[Bg. 14.18]

If you keep yourself in sattva-guṇa, or in the modes of goodness, you are promoted to the higher planetary system, even to the topmost planetary system. That is called ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. And if you keep yourself in the modes of passion, you shall remain within the middle planetary system. This is middle planetary system. This earthly planet, it is called Bhurloka. Then above this there is Bhuvarloka. Then above that, Svarloka. That is heavenly planet. The heavenly planets begins from the moon planet. And… So Jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And those who are in the modes of darkness, they go down, down, down. The animal life is also amongst the down, I mean to say, modes of life. So this human form of life is a chance to make our choice where we shall go next, in the higher or in the lower, or we shall remain here. So how to go to the higher planetary system, that is also mentioned. Yānti deva-vratā devān. Read this.

Satsvarūpa:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vrataḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

[Bg. 9.25]

Prabhupāda: So if we like, we can go to the higher planetary system, heavenly planetary system. Just like we are trying to go to the moon planet, but we have not been successful. In this way we can go there. Each planet, each and every planet, has got different atmosphere. So unless your body is completely competent to live in such planet, you cannot go there. Just like the scientists say that in the moon planet the temperature is two hundred degrees below zero. Similarly, in the sun planet, the temperature is very, very high, hundred and thousand times degrees above the normal. So in this way every planet has got different atmosphere, different temperature, different standard of life, different duration of life. So one has to become competent to transfer himself in a particular type of planet. So we, as spirit soul, dehi, the possessor of this body… Dehi means one who possesses this body or the occupier of the body, the spirit soul. That is eternal, changing body only, but eternal. Therefore we should not be interested to these different types of temporary body. That is not very good intelligence. So we have to prepare ourself, if we want. There are the full description of each and every planet, and we can prepare ourself according to our desire which planet we wish to go. But Kṛṣṇa says, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām: [Bg. 9.25] "Persons who are engaged in My occupational duties, they will come to Me."

So (to) go to God or Kṛṣṇa means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body. So how we are eternal, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

avināśi tu tad viddhi

yena sarvam idaṁ tatam

vināśam avyayasyāsya

na kaścit kartum arhati

The hint is given: "The something which is spread all over the body, that is eternal." And what is that something? That something is our consciousness. Here it is stated, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tataḥ. In this body there is something. That is consciousness. That is eternal. Just like if you or I pinch my body, I feel pain because the consciousness is there. But when the consciousness will not be there, if I cut my hand or cut your hand, you will not protest. Even scientists have proved this consciousness is there in the tree also. If you cut the tree, there is sensation, feelings of pain, and that is recorded in the machine. So here it is hinted that this consciousness is spread all over the body. That is eternal. The body is not eternal. As soon as the consciousness is gone, the body is dead. Therefore we should take care of the thing which is consciousness. That is the soul. On account of presence of the soul, there is consciousness. So Kṛṣṇa further says in this connection, antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. This body-deha means body-antavat, it is perishable. Nityasya uktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. But the thing which is covered by this material body, that is eternal. So that consciousness of the rays of the soul is described here: na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. This consciousness, or the soul, is never born, neither it is ever dead. Nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ. The soul and the consciousness has no past, present or future. It is eternal. Ajo. Ajaḥ means who does not take birth. Ajo nitya, eternal. Śāśvataḥ, ever-existing. Ayaṁ purāṇa, the oldest. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. When the body is annihilated, the soul and consciousness is not annihilated. Just like when we sleep our consciousness works in a different body, subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That we have got experience every night. We sleep on our bed, but my consciousness goes to other country or other place and work in a different way. Again when at the end of the dream, we come back to this body, gross body. So death means when the consciousness does not come back again to this gross body and enters another gross body. This period is called death.

So the subtle body, mind is there. I know you have got mind, you know I have got my mind, but I cannot see your mind; you cannot see my mind. So there is intelligence also. I know you have got intelligence; you know I have got intelligence, but you cannot see my intelligence unless it is acted; I cannot see your intelligence unless it is acted. So the soul is covered by two kinds of dresses, just like we are covered by the shirt and the coat. Similarly, the coverings of the shirt are mind, intelligence and ego. This is one covering. And upon this there is a gross covering, earth, water, air, fire, like that. In this way we have got two covers. So our business is, because we are eternal, we should not remain in these temporary coverings. That temporary co… So long we are bound up or encaged in this covering, that is called conditioned life. So we are trying to become freed from this conditioned life. Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. The desire is there. But because the life is conditioned, he cannot go. Just like I am a foreigner. I have come to your country. I am conditioned by your immigration law. There are so many conditions. One of the condition is that I cannot live here forever unless it is sanctioned by the government. So we are conditioned now. In this form of life, covered by the material elements, we are conditioned by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

We are conditioned in every step by the laws of material nature. Still, foolishly we are thinking we are free. This is foolishness. We are so much controlled by the material nature, exactly like a small child is pulled by the ear by its mother. "Come here"-he comes here. "Go there." Just like a dog. A dog may feel very freedom jumping, but as soon as the master says, "Come here," he comes and immediately chained. This is our position.

So that is our position, that we are completely under the clutches of material nature, and according to the modes of material nature, we are acting and changing our body in different species of life. So our real business in this human form of life is to get, try to accept the process by which we can get free from this conditioned life. The process is that we have to give up all our false consciousness. We are under false consciousness. I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking you are German, and the dog is thinking, "I am dog," and cat is thinking, "I am cat." So this bodily consciousness, bodily concept of life, will keep us conditioned within the material nature. Therefore our first business is how to get free from all these designations. Just like I am putting on this saffron cloth, but I am not saffron cloth. Or you are putting red cloth or black coat; you are not black coat. Within the coat, you are the person. Similarly, within the dress, I am the person. So at the present moment we are on the dress consciousness: "I am German dress," "I am Englishman dress," "I am Indian dress," "I am male dress," "I am female dress." So this is called conditioned life. So in this conditioned life we are accepting one type of body and we are dying. Dying means giving up and being transmigrated, transferred to another body by the laws of material nature. It is not under my control. You cannot say that "After giving up this German body, I shall accept again another German body." That is not in your hands, sir. It is under the laws of nature. You cannot propose. You cannot force material nature. After this body, I can get any other body. That is stated here: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Another form of a body. That form of body may be any one of the 8,400,000 forms of body. Therefore, if we are actually intelligent, we should try for being awakened or placed in our original body, the spiritual body. That will stop this constant change of body.

So the simple process is, as we are preaching in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that if you try to understand only what is Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the same thing-then you get your original, spiritual body. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be awakened simply by chanting the mahā-mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, or the holy name of God. So keep yourself aloof from four kinds of sinful life, and keep always in touch with Kṛṣṇa and God. Then you will go back to home back to Godhead. This advantage is possible in this human form of life; otherwise, we are missing the chance. We may be again put in the cycle of that 8,400,000 forms of body. The process is very simple and easy because you can remain in your occupation, in whatever position you are. Simply you chant the holy name of God. Not only Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can chant the holy name of God, "Christ." Christ is also the same as Kṛṣṇa. So do it. There is no expenditure, but the profit is very, very great.

So the conclusion is we should not put ourself in the cycle of birth and death continually in 8,400,000 species of life, to stop it and go back to home, back to Godhead, and regain your original spiritual life.

So thank you very much. If you have got any question on the subject matter, you can ask.

Question: If chanting means out loud, how can you do it all day while you are working and in so many different situations? How can you chant out loud?

Prabhupāda: You chants slow. There is no harm. Either loud or slow, it doesn't matter, but you chant the holy name of God.

Question: Why do we say to chant but not sing?

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Either you sing or chant, the same thing.

Question: What is the meaning of this chanting? If you chant all day long, do you reach a certain consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. By chanting the holy name of God, you associate with God. God is Absolute. He is not different from His name. So when you chant God's name, means you immediately become in touch with God. And by chanting more and more, your association becomes more and more intimate. Then everything is disclosed to you. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

[Bg. 10.10]

If you keep in touch with God with faith and love, then God is within yourself. He will give you intelligence how you can go back to home, back to Godhead. There are many different processes or yoga systems to be in touch with God, but for the people in this age, this is the easiest method, to be in touch with God simply by chanting His holy name.

Question: By chanting, it might be possible to get this result to reach a higher consciousness. But it can happen that on account of chanting I forget my neighbor and just drop the all things around.

Prabhupāda: Well, by chanting loudly you will also help your neighbor, who will hear you. And when he comes to complain, "Why you disturbing?" then your mission is successful. That means he has heard. So that you hear and let your neighbors also hear. Both of them benefited. And that is the greatest benefit you can render to your neighbor.

Question: Actually, there is no difference between, for example, chanting the word "tree, tree, tree" again and again or the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa. It depends on the meaning which we put into the words. And if you chant a particular word like Hare Kṛṣṇa and you have a particular meaning, like for you it's a holy word, then it might be something like auto-suggestion to you.

Prabhupāda: I have already explained that God and His name, the one, Absolute. In the material world your name and you, person, they are two different things. That is difference between God and you. So therefore, by chanting God's name, you actually contact with God. But in the material world that is not possible. Suppose I am thirsty; I want water. If I chant "water, water," it will not act. But in the case of chanting the holy name of God, it is as good as to associate with God. Try to understand. [break] That:

nāma cintāmaṇiḥ kṛṣṇaś

caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ

pūrṇaḥ śuddhaḥ nitya-mukta

abhinnatvāt nāma-nāminoḥ

[Cc. Madhya 17.133]

"The name of God and God is equally pūrṇa, perfect, śuddha, purified, pūrṇaḥ śuddhaḥ nitya, eternal, and pūrṇaḥ śuddhaḥ nitya-mukta, and liberated from material contamination." So it is not the question of argument. You can try. There is no loss on your part. Chant the holy name of God and see the result yourself. In India also sometimes "Kṛṣṇa" is announced as "Kṛṣṭa." Or you announce as "Christo." It does not make… Because God will take your mind, not your pronunciation. If you mean to pronounce God's name, even it is not, I mean to say, formally or perfectly pronounced, still, God will understand that you are trying to chant His name. That is your perfection. [break] …"Christo" or "Kristo" or "Kṛṣṇa," if He understands that you are hankering after Him, He will give the resultant action. And this is the easiest process in this age for God realization. Thank you very much. Let us chant. (end)

740628LE.MEL

Lecture at

St. Pascal's Franciscan Seminary

Melbourne, June 28, 1974

Father Greene: …there is more to life than what we see and touch and hear, that there is a need for salvation, redemption, in one form or another. And that both these ideas, that we do not live on bread alone and that we need salvation, lead us to agree that there is something beyond this life which we can call at least in general, to use a technical word, the transcendence. I think within this context we can talk and discuss and agree at least to some extent. I would now like to ask one of the Australian members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement to introduce their leader to us in a more personal manner.

Madhudviṣa: Umāpati. Umāpati.

Umāpati: We would like to introduce His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who is the ācārya of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and who has mercifully come and delivered us with the blazing torchlight of transcendental knowledge to deliver us from this disease of material existence. I think he is going to lecture from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Thank you very much. (applause)

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Father Greene and all other Fathers and Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this movement. So I will try to explain some of the verses from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is considered to be the essence of Vedic literature. Vedic literature means the four Vedas: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, then Upaniṣad, 108 Upaniṣad, and eighteen Purāṇas, Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata. It is an immense treasure-house of literature. So this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is one of the eighteen Purāṇas, and in this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there are eighteen thousand verses. So I am just trying to explain one or two verses.

The Father Greene hinted the common platform of religion. Common platform is not very difficult to understand because religion means to know God and abide by the orders of God. That is religion. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt bhagavat-praṇītam. The… Religious system cannot be manufactured by man. No. Man-made religion is not religion. Religion means God-made religion. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt. Just like law. Law means the orders enunciated by the government. You cannot manufacture law at home. That is not law. Similarly, religion means the orders given by God. This is simple definition of religion. So we must know God, and we must know what is His order, and we should abide by the order. Then that is religion. So you take any type of religion, these three things are there: that we must try to know God, and what does He desires, and to fulfill it. Therefore in the Bhāgavatam it is said,

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

It is said here that that is first-class religious system. It does not say Hinduism, Muslimism or Christianism. General definition: "That is first-class religion…" Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo. Why it is said, para? Para means the supreme, not ordinary thing, supreme. "The supreme religious system is that which teaches the follower how to love God." That is supreme. It does not matter you learn to love God through Christianism or Hinduism or Muslimism, any "ism," but the result should be how much you have advanced in the art of loving God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Bhakti, this word, Sanskrit word is used, "devotion," bhakti. To render service to God, that is bhakti. We are rendering service to so many things. That is not bhakti. Bhakti means to render service to God. And adhokṣaje. There are many terminology of understanding God, but here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, God is mentioned as adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond your sense perception. Another word is used, avāṅ mānasa-gocaraḥ, "beyond the expression of your mind, words." Avāṅ gocaraḥ. And another meaning, literal meaning, adha: adha means subdued. Adhakṛta akṣaja-jñānam. Akṣa. Akṣa means eyes, or… In Sanskrit there are letters beginning from a, a, i and, at last, kṣa. So beginning from a to kṣa, a-kṣa, means we understand by combination of words. So you can combine so many words, but still, it is beyond that expression. That is called adhokṣaja. So God is realized… Not by vocabulary we can understand what is the nature of God, or, in one word, that God is beyond our this material sense perception.

It is said in the Vedic literature that ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. Kṛṣṇa is a name of God. So it is said that Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's attributes, Kṛṣṇa's activities… Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi begins from the name. So ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. Indriya means senses. We cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa, or God-His name, His form, His attributes, His pastimes… We cannot understand by these blunt material senses. Then how it is to be understood? After all, this human life is meant for understanding God. That is the only business of human life. The nature, material nature, gives us this opportunity to have this human form of life. The facility of this life, of this form of life, is given to us just to understand God. Other forms of life, cats and dogs, trees and so many other things… There are 8,400,000 forms of life. So in other forms of life it is not possible to understand what is God. If we call all the dogs of your country, "Come here. We shall talk about God," no, there is no possibility of understanding. But in the human form of life there is possibility. It doesn't matter whether it is in India or America or Australia. Any human being, if he tries and if he reads the scriptures-never mind, Bible, Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata-then he will understand God. Therefore this life, human form of life, is only meant for understanding God. If we divert our attention to any other business, that means we are spoiling our energy. Because what are the activities? That… Everyone is active for sleeping, eating, having sexual intercourse and defending. So these things are present even cats and dogs. They also eat, they also sleep, they also have propensity for sex intercourse and they also defend, in their own way. So if human life is also spoiled only on these activities, then you are missing the chance. Human activities should be to understand God or the Absolute Truth. That is the philosophy of Vedānta philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Vedānta. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate.

So we are acquiring knowledges in so many departmental, but the ultimate knowledge is to know God. Therefore Vedānta says that "Now, this life, atha, atha…" Atha ataḥ brahma-jijñāsā. Just like the birds. In the morning, they also talk, "Where we shall go this morning to get some fruits and some eatables?" So these questions they do, and there is some talking, "ki-chi mihi." So not that kind of question. The questions "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God? What is the ultimate goal of life?" These questions and answers should be in the human society. Unless these questions arises-"What is God? What is this material nature? Who has created it? How it is created? How it is going on?" so many things… The main principle is naturally, if we are philosophical minded, we inquire that "How this world is created? Who has created?" And there are many different ways of answering. But the Vedānta-sūtra answers that the, whatever we are seeing, all this cosmic manifestation, the creator is God, Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So God, or the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth is that from whom everything has come. So that is the beginning of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], "Absolute Truth is that from whom everything has come into existence." So the common platform is therefore, if we try to understand the Supreme Soul, and we turn our loving propensities to that Supreme Soul, that is called religion. Religion is not kind of… In the dictionary it is said, "Religion is a kind of faith." No. It is a permanent, I mean to say, arrangement. It is not the faith. Faith we can change. Today I am Hindu; I can become Christian tomorrow. You are Christian; you can change your faith tomorrow. So religion… In Sanskrit word religion does not mean faith. Religion means the original characteristic. That is called religion. So original characteristic means that cannot be changed. That quality, that characteristic is always with us. So Vedic version is that the living entity is eternal servant of God. When he forgets this relationship, that he is eternal servant of God, that means his material existence. In the material existence, nobody is prepared to become servant. Everyone is prepared to become the master. That is struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to become master. Even in the cats' and dogs' society you will find one dog is trying to predominate by barking that "I am better than you." So this is called struggle for existence. Everyone, individual to individual, nation to nation, society to society, religion to religion, so-called religion-everyone is trying to become the master. Nobody is trying to become the servant. But real position is we living entities, we are eternal servant of God. As soon as we forget this formula, we are in the material existence. And as soon as we revive this, our original consciousness, that is called spiritual platform. Therefore we are propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, to come to the point to understand that we are eternal servant of God.

So here it is enunciated that "That is first-class religious system which teaches the followers how to become again servant of God." That is first-class religion. So how to become servant of… If one agrees… The Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the last instruction is… Many types of instructions are there: karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, bhakti-yoga. But Kṛṣṇa is ultimately instructing Arjuna that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Your only business is to surrender unto Me, because you are My eternal servant. You rebelled to serve Me. You wanted to live independently in this material world, to become the master, artificially trying to become master. You give up this propensity. You surrender unto Me. Then you will be happy." And Kṛṣṇa assures that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: "And when you have surrendered, I will excuse you from all reaction of sinful life." Why He has said, "sinful life"? Because in the material world every activity is sinful, because the main principle is how to become master. Therefore to become master everyone is prepared to do anything, never mind whether sinful or pious. Another meaning is that if we do anything against the order of God, that is sinful. Just like in Bible also there are so many commandments that "You shall not do this," because they are sinful. A sinful man cannot approach God. That is the verdict of Vedic literature.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

One who is completely free from the reaction of sinful life, he can completely devote in the service of the Lord. So the common platform is there. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim, nor the method of approaching God may be different, but the ultimate end is how to love God or how to serve God. One cannot serve anybody without love. In the material world one serves another for matter of money exchange, reward. But serving God is not that. Here it is stated, ahaituky apratihatā. Service of God is without motive. Here in the material world we serve somebody with a motive, for some material gain. But in the spiritual world, to serve God means "It is my duty. I love him. I want to serve Him." Just like mother loves child. It is not like the maidservant who is paid. Mother loves spontaneously child, as duty. He (she) loves to serve the child. Similarly, when our love of God will be spontaneous, without any motive, and without being impeded… Love of God cannot be checked by any material condition. It is not that because a man is poor, therefore he cannot love God. No. If a man is very rich, therefore he cannot love. No. Ahaituky apratihatā. Whatever you may be, you can learn how to love God without any impediment. And if we come to that stage of life-here it is said, yayātmā suprasīdati-then you will be fully satisfied and pleased. If you are engaged in the service of the Lord without any motive and without being impeded, spontaneously loving, then you will feel complete satisfaction. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. There are many instances of devotees. One Dhruva Mahārāja, he was five-years-old boy. So there was some family dissension. He was insulted by his stepmother. So he wanted to retaliate, five-years-old boy. So he inquired from his mother, "How can I do it?" The mother advised that "You take shelter of God. He can help you." So a five-years-old boy, he went to the forest and meditated for six months, and when he saw God, then he said, "My Lord, I am now fully satisfied. I don't want any benediction from You." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. That is the real realization of God. God realization means there is no more want, no more want. All demands, all want, is finished. Therefore it is said, yayātmā suprasīdati. Because we want something, there is demand. So long there is demand, we will never be satisfied. When there is no demand, fully satisfied, that is God realization. Yenātmā samprasīdati.

So the common platform is there. At the present moment people are suffering. Not at the present moment-always. Anyone who is in this material world, he is full of anxieties, because material wants cannot be satisfied at any time. It will simply increase. So unless one comes to God consciousness understanding, there is no possibility of satisfying. Yenātmā samprasīdati. Prasīdati means fully satisfied, no more want. There are many places. Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: [Bg. 6.20-23] "If you are situated in that position, then the most dangerous type of unhappiness cannot agitate you." If you are fixed up in God consciousness, then nothing of these material disturbances can agitate you. Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena. So people should try to attain that perfect transcendental position so that he is fully satisfied, no more want. So that is called bhakti-yoga, and we are teaching and propagating this bhakti-yoga. People are disturbed in so many ways in this age of Kali. To give them real satisfaction of life is to awaken them to the platform of God consciousness. So the simple method is chanting the holy name of God. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa means addressing the energy of God, Hara. God is with His energy. Just like fire is with its energy, heat and light, similarly, God has got energies, many energies. The principal energies are the spiritual energy and the material energy. So we are under the material energy at the present moment. So we have to transfer ourself to the spiritual energy, because we are spirit. Just like you take the fish on the land. Because land is not the place for the fish, however you try to make him comfortable, he will never be comfortable. You throw him in the water-he is comfortable. Similarly, we are spirit. We are now encaged within this material body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. So our business should be how to get out of this material energy and put ourself under the spiritual energy. Then our life will be fully satisfied. So in this human life, this is a prerogative, how to get out of this material energy and put again into the spiritual energy. So this process is described: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. To put ourself again into the spiritual energy means we have to get free from the designation. What are the designation? "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that"-these are designation. And to become free from designation means "I do not belong to any of these categories. I am eternal servant of God." If you come to that position, then that is the common platform. Let everyone perceive that he is eternal servant of God. Then all the problems will be solved.

So this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we are chanting the holy name of God, and we are recommending others also to chant the holy name of God. God must be, must have some name. In the Bible also it is said… What is that? "Hallowed be thy name"?

Satsvarūpa: "Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is name. God's name is there. God's name is Christ or Kristo or Kṛṣṇa. So we can chant combinedly. Where is the difficulty? So those who are professing Christianity, never mind. You have got the name of God. Otherwise why Jesus recommended that "You glorify the name of God"? That is chanting. So let us combinedly glorify the name of God. This is common platform.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (applause)

Madhudviṣa: So if there are any questions, you can raise your hand, and we will have questions now, if you like. No questions? This means that everyone agrees. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Full agreement. That's nice.

Guest (1): Your devotees say that you aim to get beyond the stage of material existence. I don't quite pick up what your process was for doing this, and could you tell me what the end result is once you do get beyond this.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Madhudviṣa: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the process is to get beyond the disease of material existence. The first part of his question is how to do this, the second part of this question, "What is the end result after taking to the process?"

Prabhupāda: The process is to transfer yourself from material energy to spiritual energy. We are under energy. God has got two energies-material energy and spiritual energy. We are also energy. We are marginal energy. So marginal energy means we can remain under the material energy or on the spiritual energy, as we make our choice. Marginal… Just like on the beach you find sometimes on the border of the water, the water is covering the land, and sometimes the land is open. This is called marginal position. Similarly, we are marginal energy, or we can remain open also, in spiritual energy. So this process of, I mean to say, converting the material energy to spiritual energy is called bhakti-yoga. Just like this microphone. When it is used for some material purpose… Just like I am speaking. But sometimes the politicians or other parties or so many things-this microphone can be utilized for so many purposes. And it can be utilized also, God's purposes. I am speaking through this microphone about the message of God. So when it is utilized for God's purposes it is spiritual. And when it is utilized for our material purposes or sense gratification, this is material. Just like electricity. Electricity is one energy. It can be utilized for heating purpose and cooling purpose. Similarly, God's energy is one, but when it is utilized for sense gratification, that is called material energy, and when it is used for service of God, then it is called spiritual energy. So to transfer ourself from material energy to spiritual energy is to begin service of God. Anything engaged in the service of God, that is spiritual. This is a hall. It can be utilized for selling wine and it can be utilized for speaking about God. So the place is the same, but when it is utilized for God's purpose, then it is spiritual. And (if) it is utilized for my sense gratification, that is material. That requires little guidance. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to God, but it becomes material and spiritual according to the purpose it is being utilized. So if you convert your life, everything for God-speaking for God, eating for God, sleeping for God, mating for God-then it is spiritualized. We have got four kinds of engagements: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Defending for God also. So actually everything belongs to God. Now we have to learn it, how to utilize it for God. That is our philosophy.

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ

phalgu vairāgyaḥ kathyate

To renounce this world is not very big thing because the world also, created by God. So instead of renouncing, if we utilize this God-created material world for God's service, then it is spiritual. Because originally it belongs to God. Originally it is spiritual. Therefore in the higher sense there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual because everything is coming, emanating from the Supreme Spirit. So we have to learn the art how to utilize everything for God. Just like we are. We are also living in the house. Without a house, where can you live? We are also human being. We cannot lie down on the street. We have got some house, some protection. We are also eating, we are also sleeping, and we are also mating, and we are also defending. But it is in a different way. These boys and girls, some of them are married, so they are also begetting children, and that means mating. But you see in our temple, even small child, he is offering obeisances, he is offering a flower, he is also chanting, he is also dancing. So to make sex for begetting such children, it is also God. But if we beget children like cats and dogs, then it is material. Because there is no God consciousness. So everything can be turned. Hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ: without any attachment. Just like these boys, they are collecting money, but not a single farthing they are spending for themselves, not a single farthing. Everything collected is being utilized for God's book publication, for propaganda, for distribution. They are not earning less. We collect some day one thousand dollars, and we are collecting all over the world about thirty thousand dollars. Yes. But not a single paisa for personal use. Everything is utilized for propagating God consciousness. So in this way everything can be utilized. After all, it is God's property. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Sarvam, whatever you see, that property belongs to God. We are falsely claiming, "It is my property." And that is māyā, illusion. Just like some portion of land, I am saying, "That is India," you are saying, "This is Australia," and they are saying, "It is England," but it is neither England nor Australia. It is all property of God. We have created man-made designation. So we have to give up this idea. The United Nations is there for the last twenty or thirty years. Before that, there was League of Nation. To unite. But how unity? "This portion is, sir, mine. This portion is mine." Why do they not agree that every part of this universe or this planet belongs to God? What is the difficulty? Actually it belongs to God, but they will not agree. They will fight, 'No, it is mine."

So these things have to be changed; then there will be God consciousness, and everything will be happy. To accept the real fact, so many big, big brains, politician, but they have no sense to understand that the whole earthly planet belongs to God. It is created by God. It is the property of God. Everything, what is there in this earthly planet, that belongs to God. We are sons of God. Let us enjoy God's property. The son has got right to use. But I should not encroach upon your property or my property, but everything belongs to… Just like in a family. Everything belongs to the father, and the children, whatever father gives, you eat and live peacefully. Similarly, there is immense prospect for produce food for the whole human race on this globe, earthly planet. But because somebody is encroaching God's property-"This is mine, sir. You cannot come here"-there is trouble. Otherwise… Just like your Australia. So much land, but you won't allow anybody to come. It is yours. Africa: so much land vacant. And "No, you cannot come. It is mine." And nobody is thinking that "It is God's and we are children of God. Let us produce." If we actually utilize the whole land of this earthly planet, we can produce ten times the necessity of the whole population. Where is the question of scarcity? But that understanding we haven't got. So unless you come to that, God consciousness, everything belongs to God… Just (like) the Communists, they are thinking that everything belongs to the state. But why don't you think everything belongs to God? Then the whole solution is there. But that they will not do. So therefore there is great necessity to propagate God consciousness to the people. It doesn't matter what religion is there. Religion is neither Christian religion… Religion is one. I have already explained. That is God consciousness, to abide by the orders of God. That is religion.

Guest (2): Your Divine Grace, when someone has a very little amount of God consciousness, he is a poor servant of God and doesn't love Him very much, do you see God as loving him still, and, say, wanting him to come to consciousness in helping him? (devotee repeats)

Prabhupāda: Yes. God loves you so much that He sends His son to convince you, "Please come to Me." God Himself comes, Kṛṣṇa: "Please come to Me." And what we are doing, servant of God? We are requesting only, "Please be God conscious." So God's propaganda is going on in so many ways to recall all these, I mean to say, bewildered sons of God, those who have forgotten. Naturally… Just like the father. He loves the son more than the son loves the father. Because as father, if one son has gone out of home, madness, he wants to live independently of the father, so he may think like that, crazy. But father, he says that "This rascal has gone. Some way or other, bring him. Let him live peacefully here. I have got immense property. Why he goes outside to live independently?" So that is his mistake, the son's mistake. The father is always anxious to get the son back to home, back to Godhead.

Guest (3): How would His Grace see Jesus Christ?

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, is… He is son of God, the best son of God, so we have all respect for him. Yes. Anyone who is teaching people about God consciousness, he is respectful to us. It does not matter in which country, in which atmosphere, he was preaching. It doesn't matter.

Madhudviṣa: (repeating question) St. Francis, the founder of this particular order which we have been invited to speak to, found God in the material world. And he used to address the aspects of the material world as "brother" and "sister." "Brother tree," "sister water," like that. What is your view upon this?

Prabhupāda: This is real God consciousness. This is real God consciousness, yes, not that "I am God conscious, and I kill the animals." That is not God conscious. To accept the trees, plants, lower animals, insignificant ants even, as brothers… Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

[Bg. 18.54]

Samaḥ. Samaḥ means equal to all living entities, to see the spirit soul, anyone… It doesn't matter whether he is man or cat or dog or tree or ant or insect or big man. They are all parts and parcel of God. They are simply dressed differently. One has got the dress of tree; one has got the dress of king; one has got the, insect. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ: [Bg. 5.18] "One who is paṇḍita, learned, his vision is equal." So if St. Francis was thinking like that, that is highest standard of spiritual understanding. Similar expression is there in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that sthāvara-jaṅgama dekhe nā dekhe tāra mūrti [Cc. Madhya 8.274]. A spiritually advanced devotee of the Lord, he sees the trees or the animals or the stone or the anything he sees-he sees that it is the energy of God. Nā dekhe tāra mūrti. Just like your mūrti or my mūrti-mūrti means form-may be little different, but we are made of the same ingredients. If your body surgically operated, the same blood, stone, or bone, or flesh, everything is there the same because same ingredients. Similarly, our outward covering is covered by these material elements, but inside, within this, there is the spirit soul. Therefore one who is advanced, he does not see that "This is cat, this is dog, this is man, this is elephant, and this is brāhmaṇa, this is this…" No. He sees the soul, that "Here is the soul, part and parcel of God." That is his vision. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. So that is God realization. God is spirit, Supreme Spirit, and he is part and parcel, the living entities. That is real vision. Paṇḍitāḥ. Paṇḍitāḥ means learned.

Guest (4): The most obvious sign that we see of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is your chanting and reciting of the mantra. Are there other valid forms of reaching God consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are lacking in God consciousness on account of being impure. So by chanting, glorifying the Lord's name, you will be purified. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire. It become warm, warmer, at last red-hot. When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod; it is fire by association with the fire. Similarly, if you remain always, constantly, in association with God, then you become godly, and you become purified. Then your vision will be clear. So God and God's name, the same, because God is Absolute. If you chant, glorify, God's name, that means you associate with God directly. And if we… Associate with God means you gradually become godly. This is the meaning of chanting the holy name of God.

Guest (5): Your Grace, all of us who are attached to a transcendental religion, I think we face a common problem, and I would like to hear you say how you see the answer to the problem: the problem of evil. If I put it in these terms, that all energy, all reality, is from God, the spiritual and the material. And material is good when we use it towards God consciousness, use it properly. But the thing that makes a difference is ourselves, the way we consciously use things differently. And the trouble is that in this consciousness, this is how we come closest to God, our consciousness in itself. Now, some people would say that the source of evil is individual consciousness, our consciousness as persons. Others would have other ways of answering. I was wondering how you yourself would say.

Prabhupāda: Individual consciousness and the supreme consciousness, God and we… We are all also the same principle. God is also living being, we are also living being, but He is the supreme living being. That is stated in the Vedas. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Nitya means eternal. God is eternal; we are also eternal. But because we have fallen down in this material existence, we have forgotten our eternity; we are changing body. We are thinking, "I am this body." This is our misgivings. But God does not fall down. He is eternal. We are also eternal, but because we are very small fragment, sometimes we fall down. Therefore God's another name is Acyuta-"Never falls down." We cyuta, we fall down sometimes. When we fall down, then God comes to save us. So this is the difference between God and us, that we are also eternal and God is also eternal. We are also cognizant, God is also cognizant. In this way, qualitatively, you will find God and we are the same. But quantitatively we are different. So far consciousness is concerned, I am conscious about my bodily pains and pleasures, you are conscious about your bodily pains and pleasures. You are not conscious of my bodily pains and pleasure, I am not conscious of your bodily pains. But God is conscious of your consciousness and my consciousness and everybody. That is the difference between God and you and me. He knows what is pains and pleasure within you, He knows what is pains and pleasure within me or any living entity. He knows everything. Therefore He is all-cognizant, all-powerful, almighty. He knows everything. That is explained in the… Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. He is cognizant of everything. He knows everything. In the Bhagavad-gītā also He says that "I know past, present, future everywhere." So consciousness is there. One is the supreme consciousness, and the other is this limited consciousness. So far we are concerned, our consciousness is limited, and so far God is concerned, His consciousness is unlimited. But we are both conscious. So far consciousness is concerned, the quality is one. But one, just like a drop of sea-water, Pacific Ocean. The taste is the same, salty, but a drop of water is very insignificant… [break]

Madhudviṣa: He wants to know… Kṛṣṇa says that once you are in the spiritual world you are full of bliss. Why would someone choose to come to this material world, which…?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. A rich man's son, he thinks that he will be happy independently. His father has got everything, but he goes out of home and chooses to live independently. That is a craziness. Similarly, when you come to this material world, giving up the protection of God, that is our craziness. So a crazy man must suffer. Therefore we are suffering. Yes. But you have the right to become a crazy. All right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

740701LE.MEL

La Trobe University Lecture

Melbourne, July 1, 1974

Madhudviṣa: This afternoon His Divine Grace will be speaking from the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Some of you university students are familiar with the book the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā translated means "the song of God." Bhagavad-gītā is spoken five thousand years ago, and the peculiarity about this presentation of the Bhagavad-gītā is that it is the Bhagavad-gītā as it is, not the Bhagavad-gītā as we think it was, but the Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as it was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna five thousand years ago. Our spiritual master is sitting before you. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Gosvāmī Mahārāja Śrīla Prabhupāda is in a direct disciplic succession from Kṛṣṇa. Five thousand years of masters and disciples have passed this knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā down purely. So therefore, when our spiritual master speaks on the Bhagavad-gītā, he does not speak on the Bhagavad-gītā as he thinks it is. He speaks on the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So without any more verbiage, I'll present our spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your joining us in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa, when I utter the word Kṛṣṇa, it means God. It is Sanskrit word, Kṛṣṇa. Those who are Sanskrit student, you know kṛṣ-dhātu, "attraction," "one who attracts." God is the Supreme Being, full with six kinds of opulences; therefore He attracts everyone. This is the definition of the word Kṛṣṇa. This Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the perfect person. We receive knowledge from the perfect person. When we receive knowledge from imperfect person, the knowledge is not complete. At the present age, mostly the scientists, they cannot give us perfect knowledge, because there are so many "if's." They say, "It may be," "Perhaps," like that. But this is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge means there is no "if," there is no "perhaps," there is no doubt. So we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect being. He says that dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe. Asmin means this, this body. You have got your body; I have got my body. So within this body, there is the proprietor of the body. Asmin dehe. Dehinaḥ asmin. Dehe means the proprietor of the body. I do not see you; I see your body, you see my body. But within the body the proprietor is lying, or he is situated. That we do not see. But we can understand. Suppose my beloved father is dead or somebody is dead. I cry, "My father is gone." So where is your father gone? He is lying there, unconscious. He may come to consciousness. But we say, "No, he is gone." Dead means gone. So factually I never saw my father who has gone. I saw the body of my father, and that is lying on the bed. Why I am crying, "My father is gone"? Therefore this is called ignorance. We do not see the real father within the body, or we do not see the real son within the body. We see the outward dress only. This is ignorance.

So we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the platform of the spirit soul, which we do not see with these material eyes. This is great ignorance. After death we cry that "My father is gone," "My son is gone." But where he has gone? He is lying on the bed. Now, even still, we do not come to the understanding what is the difference between the living body and the dead body. There are so many theories, but as I have already told you that we receive knowledge from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. He says that within this body the owner of the body is there, and on account of the owner of the body presence, the body is changing. The owner of the body is sometimes in the childhood body; the owner of the body sometimes in a different boyhood body; the owner of the body is sometimes in the youthhood body. Similarly, as he is changing different types of body during this duration of life, similarly, after this annihilation of this body, when it is old… Just like old garment or old coat, old shirt cannot be used-it is thrown away; another new shirt, new coat is taken-similarly, this body, being annihilated, the soul accepts another body. This is a real knowledge. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā very broadly. Just like here it is said that,

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyinaḥ anitya

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

[Bg. 2.14]

Our real business, real education, is to understand, "What I am? I am not this body." But that education is lacking. So our main business is to understand that "I am not this body, and the bodily pains and pleasure, they are due to the change of season only." Just like now it is winter season. We are covering our body. In the summer season we do not like so heavily dressed. So this feeling of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete

puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha

sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīraṁ

so 'mṛtatvāya kalpate

Real business of human life is to understand the spirit soul, and so far the material body is concerned, just like seasonal changes, we feel pains and pleasure. Just like water. In this winter season, on account of the seasonal change, we do not like to touch water at the present moment. But the same water in the summer season will be very pleasing. So the water is the same, but due to seasonal changes, sometimes the water is very pleasing and sometimes it is very painful. So this material world, so long we shall remain in the material world, the pains and pleasure on account of this material body we have to feel. But if we come to the spiritual platform, that is, understanding of the soul, then in any condition we shall be happy.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

Brahmā-bhūtaḥ means self-realized, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." This is the first realization, self-realization. So long we are not on this platform of spiritual understanding, we are equal to the animals. Animals, they do not know what is the difference between body and the soul. A dog is always thinking that "I am this body." Similarly, if a man thinks that "I am this body," he is no better than the dog because he has no realization of the self. Therefore the Vedic literature says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ. Actually we are standing on a false platform, understanding this body as the self, and in relationship with the body we are considering, "This country is my country. This man is my family man" or "my national man." So all these bodily concepts of life is based on ignorance, because we do not know soul. Actually the human life is meant for being educated that he is not this body; he is soul. That is the Vedānta-sūtra philosophy, to inquire about the spirit soul. That is our main business. Unfortunately… We are traveling all over the world. There is no institution, no school, no college, no university where this education is given, that "What I am? Am I this body, or I am something else? No. I am something else."

So this education can be given through this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. On the basis of Śrī Bhagavad-gītā, everything is explained very vividly. The soul is eternal. The soul is transferred from one gross body to another gross body, just like we change our apartment from one apartment to another. But I exist. If I vacate one apartment and I go to another apartment, it does not mean I am finished. I may leave the apartment. Similarly, if we are leaving this body and we are going to another body, that means I am not finished. I am existing. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Na hanyate: "The soul is never annihilated even after the destruction of this body." Therefore the question is that "If I am eternal, why I am put into this condition of changing, of transmigrating from one body to another? Is there any possibility of not changing the body, to keep eternality?" Yes. That is possible. Actually we are, as spirit soul, the part and parcel of God. So God is eternal, God is blissful, God is in full knowledge, so we, being part and parcel of God, we have got the same quality.

Man: That's a lot of bullshit. How do you explain your Rolls Royce, Dickey?

Prabhupāda: What is that? (big commotion in the audience) What is this? This is not good.

Man (1): Where's your love?

Man (2): Where's your gestapo?

Man (3): Fascists.

Man (1): Where's your love, I want to know. I want to know.

Prabhupāda: [break] …servants of God. We have come to serve God, His purpose. God is very kind upon every one of us. He comes Himself. He comes. He sends His son. He sends His devotee to reclaim. As I was explaining that in the material condition of life we have been changing from one body to another, this is not very good condition of life. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Nobody wants to take birth, but he is forced to take birth. Nobody wants to become old man, but he becomes old man. And nobody wants to become diseased, but he is forced to take some disease. This is our condition. Now this human form of body is a chance to understand what is our real inconvenience-birth, death, old age, and disease-and to think of whether there is any way out of this entanglement of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are educating people how to get out of the clutches of illusion that continually, one after another, we have to take birth. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Real problem is this. So if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness-that means if we understand, "What is God? What I am? What is our relationship? What is the ultimate goal of our life?" If these things we understand, then we can get out of the clutches of illusion, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, sum and substance. And to realize this, the method is very simple-chant the holy name of God. We are chanting the holy name of God: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So our only request is that you have got this human form of body-don't misuse it. Don't waste it like animals simply by eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. You have got another business. A human being has got extra intelligence. That extra intelligence than the animal is meant for realizing himself, not to live like cats and dog. That is not human form of life.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is educational movement. It is not a religious sentiment; it is a science. And as we have got our books also. You have seen. There is demonstration of the book. We have got already twenty books of four hundred pages each, and we are going on, writing more books. Everything will be finished in eighty books. So if you want to know through science and philosophy, we have got our books. You can read. And even if you read the complete set, it will take your whole life to finish it. But if you cannot read or if you do not want to waste your time by such reading… It is not wasting; it is actually utilizing. But if you think so, then our request is that you simply chant the holy name of God.

Man (1): Have you got books on the use of flick knives, like your brother-in-law's there? Have a look. Declare yourself, mate.

Madhudviṣa: Sir, listen, we'll have questions and answers in just a minute if you'd like to be patient.

Man (1): Knives…

Madhudviṣa: If you'd like to be patient for a second, we'll have questions and answers and we can ask about the philosophy that we're talking about. (more yelling from audience) The people that want to listen in an orderly fashion are waiting to hear the meeting continue, and those who want to ask questions can please have respect for them and let us continue with the lecture, and then we'll have questions and answers afterwards.

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Madhudviṣa: They are simply talking about violence.

Prabhupāda: They are not prepared to hear. So let them question and answer.

Madhudviṣa: So our spiritual…

Prabhupāda: You can answer.

Madhudviṣa: Our spiritual master has traveled about ten thousand miles to come and speak to you. We did have… We've not come here to bribe anyone to come and listen to him. We have rented this hall. We have rented this hall here and we have invited people cordially to come and listen as representatives of the intelligentsia of Australia. Now if the intelligentsia of Australia cannot sit for half an hour and listen to a gentleman speak about love of God, it does not speak very well for you. We are simply not asking for disturbance. We are not asking for violence. We will meet violence with violence. We are not artificially pacifists. We are asking you to listen like gentlemen. We have come here in good will. We have come here not to cause any disturbance. So we ask you please to have that much respect for our spiritual master. Now at this time, if there is any question about Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy… Not about fighting. We can go on the street and fight. We can solve everything out there. We have come here to speak about spiritual matters. If you want to hear about spiritual matters, let's speak together like brothers and sisters. Let's not cause a disturbance. I have an ego; you have an ego. If you do something to flip off my ego, I may get mad. If I do something to flip out your ego, you get mad. So we'll go out into the street and settle it like cats and dogs? No. We're not here at this university to act like that. We're supposed to have raised above that platform. So please, we ask you to present sober questions to our spiritual master. Yes, sir?

Young man (2): I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus. What is your spiritual master in relation to Jesus, and do you see Jesus as just another prophet like…

Madhudviṣa: The question was, this man is a follower of Lord Jesus Christ, and he would like to know what our opinion is of Jesus Christ.

Prabhupāda: We respect Jesus Christ as you do. Because he is the representative of God, son of God, and we are also speaking of God, so we respect him with our greatest veneration.

Young man (2): So you're comparing Kṛṣṇa, Buddha, Muhammad to Jesus as the same, and Guru Maharaj-ji too, another Jesus. You're saying that.

Prabhupāda: No. I am not Jesus. I am servant of Jesus.

Young man (2): You're a son of Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am servant of Jesus.

Young man (2): What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: I don't say I am Jesus.

Young man (2): Do you have the powers of Jesus? Can you say to a person, "Rise up and walk," when they're paralyzed?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Madhudviṣa: He wants to know if you have the powers of Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, I have no power of Jesus.

Man: Well, I've got the power of Jesus. (laughter) Cause I'm a Christian.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are Christian, we are Krishnian-practically the same thing. (laughter and applause)

Man: And one other question.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Man: I believe Jesus is coming back and not Kṛṣṇa. And what are you guys going to do when you see Jesus? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Madhudviṣa: Jesus. He believe Jesus is going to come back again.

Prabhupāda: Well, he is coming, welcome. We shall welcome. It is very good news that Jesus is coming.

Man: Jesus had no reputation. He wore sandals and he was crucified between two thieves…

Young man: He didn't carry flick knives… Hare Kṛṣṇas.

Young man (2): And your spirituality is in a Rolls Royce on a padded seat, and you're all into money, you Kṛṣṇas. You want money. You rip off people in the streets.

Prabhupāda: No. I don't want money.

Man: You said "Violence with violence." When you said "Violence with violence," that's what you believe. Jesus turned the other cheek, and he expects his followers to. (applause) [break]

Prabhupāda: Yes, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a sentimental religious system. It is science and philosophy. The attempt is to awaken God consciousness. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is God. There may be angles of vision to approach God, but God is one. Therefore our attempt is that you become God conscious. Don't be limited by Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadanism. So our formula is explained in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. We have got the copies there. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: [SB 1.2.6] "That is first-class religious system by which the followers become a lover of God." This is the, our formula. Either you go through Christianism or Hinduism or Muslimism. If you understand what is God and if you know what is your relationship with God-in this way your goal of life how to learn to love God, that is achieved-then it doesn't matter through which religion you achieve that perfection. But if you can achieve that perfection, that system is perfect. This is our formula.

Madhudviṣa: I think part of the question was this. One other man who comes from the East, Krishnamurti, he stresses that when you are speaking in the Western world, you should speak and present yourself as a Westerner, not as an Indian or not as you would speak in India. Instead of sitting on the raised dais, Vyāsāsana, and dressing in robes of a monk, Krishnamurti would say, "Dress in Western clothes and sit on a chair." The question was, "What is our opinion of this?"

Prabhupāda: Actually a God conscious person is neither Westerner nor Easterner. So anywhere he goes, the devotees, as they receive him, they accept. These devotees, they have arranged the raised seat, so we have accepted this raised seat. If they wanted to sit down on the floor, I would have gladly accepted. I have no objection, this or that. But as the devotees receive and they give honor, that is good for them, because actually we should honor the Supreme Lord, God, and His representative. Nowadays it is different. Students and people are learning not to honor. But that is not actually the system. According to Vedic system, the representative of God must be honored as God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. Just like in India we had British rule. The governor general, he was viceroy. So he was given honor, as much honor we used to give to the king. So that is the etiquette. That is the system. It is not that the honor given to the viceroy exactly like to the king, he becomes a king. No. He is servant of God. But it is the duty of the citizen to honor the representative of the king as king. That is etiquette. That is our Vedic system.

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Woman: How do you explain the fact that Jesus said that "I am the way, the truth, and the light," and that "No man comes to the father but by me"?

Prabhupāda: What is that? Hm?

Madhudviṣa: She's asking how can we explain that Jesus said he is the only way?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is the only way. We also admit. Because he is the representative of God, so if you want to approach God, you must approach through His representative. That is His version. "I am the only representative of God," then you have to reach God through him, that is fact.

Madhudviṣa: Another question? Yes, sir?

Man (3): Do you consider your movement the major form of enlightenment emanating from the United States today? (laughter) What order of priority had your movement in the White House psychological warfare department? (laughter) Will you also be coming on to our July 4th demonstration again this year to try and fuck it up and divert people away from taking up real political issues concerned with Australia?

Madhudviṣa: All right, we can answer you one point at a time. (to Prabhupāda:) I can answer them for you if you like. Our movement is not coming from the United States. If you have some paranoiac stigma about anything and everything coming from the United States, well, that's your hang-up, not mine. (applause) Second of all, our spiritual master, he came to the United States to start this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement because he got a free ticket on a boat to go there. Because it was the mercy of this one lady who gave him this free ticket on a boat. He came to America on the orders of his spiritual master. This is the reason he came to America to start Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you had sent him a free ticket, he probably would have come to Australia first. He was a monk. He was a monk, a penniless monk in India, and he was trying to follow the orders of his spiritual teacher by spreading love of God. He was not trying to start any kind of a political movement. Actually, he is trying to start a revolution in consciousness. I think that you are also interested in revolution. We are also interested in revolution also. But we are interested in the revolution which will help people to feel peace themselves, whether they're Communists or Marxists or Leninists or whatever "ist" you like. We're trying to help people feel happy whether they're in the city or whether they're in the country or whether they're under any… (people yelling) This is what we're trying to do. So we are also revolutionaries. We are also revolutionaries. And actually we request you to cooperate with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so that actually we can change the consciousness of the world, not just change from one political system to another political system. That's been going on since time immemorial, and we see there's no solution because people are changing their politics; they're not changing their consciousness. They're not changing their consciousness. They're not changing themselves inside. They're just changing their "ism" from Communism to Capitalism, and from Capitalism back to something else "ism." We're asking people to try to get a little bit beyond that superficial political system and find out what actually motivates each and every one of us. That is God consciousness, or love of God. That love of God is much more powerful than any temporary political system. (many people yelling)

Man: Hey, listen. If you're that bloody good, why'd you beat up my mate?

Men: Yeah!

Man: You're bloody Nazis from bloody Germany. (yelling)

Man: Hitler was a revolutionary too.

Madhudviṣa: Are there are any questions, more questions about the philosophy?

Young man: Because Jesus loves me, so I love you, brother. Because I love you I'd like to know where is your book that you say has God's words… How come my God says in this book, which my God doesn't seem to say… How come my God, in His book, which can be proved by many methods, that love… God too is talking about love. Man, he loves everybody… (end)

740818SP.VRN

Ceremony Speech Excerpt

Vṛndāvana, August 18, 1974

Prabhupāda: …Vedic literature that kṣatraṁ dvijatvaṁ ca parasparārtham. They are meant for cooperation. So secular state does not mean that we should be neglectful of the spiritual progress of life. The government should be very careful that in the name of secularism people are going to, astray. No. So this is the movement that kṣatraṁ dvijatvaṁ ca parasparārtham. We are trying to cooperate with the political power, and we are trying to impart spiritual instruction. This is our attempt. And another thing is that according to our Vedic literature, there cannot be different religions. It is not possible. Because God is one. God cannot be two. "This is Hindu God, this is Muslim God," or "This is Christian God…" No. God is one. And dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "The law which is given by God, that is dharma." This is the simple definition of dharma. And at the end of Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the ultimate religion. One has to surrender to the Supreme Lord. This is religion.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yena ātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

If we actually want peace, samprasīdati, then we must learn how to surrender to the Supreme Lord. It doesn't matter through which process. Either by Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion, it doesn't matter. We want to see that everyone is becoming a perfect lover of God. This is our definition of God. It may be, due to circumstantial changes in the country, the Muslim religion may be little different from Hindu religion so far the ritualistic ceremonies are concerned, but actually we want to see whether you have advanced in the matter of loving God. Not that "Superficially I am very advanced in religion, but I do not know how to love." This is the test. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is the test. A devotee wants to see that everyone is happy. It doesn't matter whether he is a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian. It doesn't matter. We want to see that everyone is happy.

This process we are following, and because we are sincerely following, people are accepting, and gradually we are advancing. Within the five or six years, we have written these books, about twenty books, four hundred pages, and we are selling very nicely these books. Not only to the common man, but also to the learned scholars, big, big scholars in the universities… (end)

750302LE.ATL

Sunday Feast Lecture

Atlanta, March 2, 1975

Prabhupāda: When they first met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they offered this prayer:

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tvise namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

These ministers were, by caste, brāhmaṇa, but because they accepted the service in Muhammadan government, they were rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. And they also became like Muhammadans. They changed their names to Sākara Mallika and Dabira Khāsa. Practically they became Muhammadan. And in those days many other Muhammadans, they also became this follower of Caitanya cult, especially Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was born in Muhammadan family. These Rūpa Gosvāmī and Sanātana Gosvāmī, they were born in high-class brāhmaṇa family, but on account of their service in the Muhammadan government they were rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. That is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special mercy, that this Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who was actually born in Muhammadan family, he was made nāmācārya. We offer our respect, "Nāmācārya Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura." And we offer our respect to Sanātana Gosvāmī, vande rūpa-sanātanau…

Devotee: Raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau.

Prabhupāda: Raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is special cult. And He wanted to preach not only in India but all over the world. We have several times discussed this point, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma, this cult, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult. And what is that cult? Kṛṣṇa-prema, to love Kṛṣṇa, or God. God… In many religions they have got different names of God. And in Vedic scripture there are many demigods and incarnation of God. But Kṛṣṇa is the original name of God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. There is list of incarnations, and in the conclusion the śāstra says, "In this long list there are many names, but the name 'Kṛṣṇa' is particularly to be noted, that He is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead." "God" means He is not like us. He can expand Himself. Even the yogis, some of the yogis, not these ordinary third-class yogis, but those who have attained yogic perfection, they can expand the body in at least up to eight. The yogis can do that. There are instances. So if an ordinary yogi can do that, just imagine how much potential there is of the Supreme Lord. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati: [Bg. 18.61] "My dear Arjuna, the Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, in every one living being's heart." You just imagine how many living entities are there. They cannot be counted. Jīva-bhago sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantaya kalpate. But there are many million, trillions. Even million, trillions is insufficient. There is no counting. There are so many living entities, and they are all part and parcel of God. Just like the sunshine and sun globe and the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe, and the inhabitants of the sun globe, they are all very glowing, luminous. On account of their bodily glowing, the whole sun planet is glowing. On account of the sun planet glowing, the sunshine, which is reaching us from 93,000,000's of miles-we feel the heat and the light. This is an ordinary material thing. So just imagine what is the potential of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So we cannot imagine what is the potential power, energy of the Supreme Person, just like we cannot estimate what is the temperature of the sun globe, sun-god. It is in our front. We have got aeroplanes. We can go there. But before going there we will be finished, the temperature is so high. Everyone knows it. So if the ordinary sun-god or sun globe is such high temperature, how much higher temperature is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, His potency, His power. We say God is almighty, all-powerful, but we have no idea what is meant by "all-powerful." We think that all-powerful means "I am so much powerful. He may be ten times powerful than me." Or somebody says, "twenty times." "All right, let us compromise. Fifty times." (laughter) This kind of speculation is like the frog's speculation within the well. There is a frog within the well, and one of his friends came to him, "My dear friend, I have seen a vast mass of water, Atlantic Ocean." "What is that Atlantic Ocean?" "It is vast." "How much? Maybe ten times more than this? Or twenty times? Come on." (laughter) "No, no. It is very, very vast." So these rascal speculation of God is like that the speculation of the frog about Atlantic Ocean. These mundane philosopher, scientists, they are thinking of God in that way, the Dr. Frog's philosophy. The Dr. Frog's philosophy will not help you to understand what is God.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching was to distribute love of God. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's… Because this human life is specially meant for understanding what is God and loving Him. That's all. This is the only business. The cats and dogs or other lower animals, if you preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible. They will not understand. But human being… Just like our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being spread all over the world, and you can see here also in your country, in America, in Europe, they are all understanding. That is the special advantage of human life. One Christian priest in Boston, he was astonished by seeing our devotees. He issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement they did not care to see us or come to the church, and now they are mad after God." This is the certificate of a Christian priest. And actually you can see. These boys… I am poor Indian. I came with forty rupees. And I have not bribed them; neither I have got that money. (laughter) But how they are mad after God. It is practical. Now you bribe them and take away-they will not go. They will not go. Many fathers, mothers came to induce them to take home, but they are not going. So what is the intoxication? This is the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This intoxication is: they have given up all intoxication; they are now intoxicated with Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Yes. One Draft Board officer came to see in our camp: "So what is the facility that these boys have joined Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, whether it is very easier than the Draft Board?" But when he enquired he saw that these boys and girls are prohibited illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. He thought that it is harder than the Draft Board. Here, the Draft Board, they do not make any condition, but here are so many condition which is very, very difficult to follow. So this is called Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy-practical.

So every human being should accept this mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and that is the purport of the verse Rūpa Gosvāmī first offered to Lord Caitanya, that namo mahā-vadānyāya: "You are the most munificent incarnation." Why? Now, "You are distributing Kṛṣṇa-prema, love of Godhead. People do not know what is God, and You are distributing love of Godhead." One cannot love anybody unless he knows the other party very well or very intimate dealings. Then there is question of love. Love, there is no question of love. If I do not know you, you do not know me, when we live ten thousand miles away, there is no question of love. Love means when there is intimacy. So to understand God is very difficult. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

He, God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "Out of many millions of person, one is interested to make his life success." This is not success, that "I can eat whatever I like. There is no checking. And I have got very nice car, and I have got very nice apartment. And I have got nice bank balance. So now life is, my, perfect." This is not perfection, because we are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Material nature is controlling. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. How the material nature is controlling? She has got machine, three modes of material nature. So kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. They are contacting either of these three modes of material nature and thus being infected. We know that if we infect some disease knowingly or unknowingly-generally we infect unknowingly-later on that disease becomes developed. This is law of nature. Not that you do not know when you infected that particular disease… That is no excuse. You have infected yourself with this kind of disease; you must suffer. This is knowledge. Similarly, there are three kinds of infection, modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. So ignorance is no excuse. If in the law court you say, "My lord, I did not know that by stealing one is punished," that, the magistrate or the judge, will not excuse you. The law, even this material law, is so strict, and you can imagine how much strict are stringent laws of the nature. So this is the material life, that knowingly or unknowingly we are infecting a particular type of modes of material nature, and our next body is being created. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Sad-asad life, there are different varieties of life, 8,400,000 varieties of forms. So why there are different forms of life, different standard of life? Why? The answer is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇam, the reason, is guṇa-saṅgaḥ, his particular infection with a particular quality of material nature. This is going on perpetually. "Perpetually" means we do not know when this process of life began and when it will be ended; therefore it is perpetual. So our this privilege, to possess a human form of life, is great advantage in this sense, that we can study all these things-what is the living entity, how he is being infected and how he is taking different types of bodies, and account of the body, the standard of life, nice or bad, is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the very beginning of His teaching of the Bhagavad-gītā, He is trying to impress that "I am not this body, or we are not this body. I am the owner or occupier of the body." This is the first instruction.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is not on the bodily platform. It is on the spiritual platform. That He explained when He was talking with Sanātana Gosvāmī, that what is the identity of this living entity. Or he said, "What is my identity? Actually people address me as very learned man." He was very learned man. He was minister and was a brāhmaṇa. Naturally in those days he knew Sanskrit very well and Urdu, because Muhammadan kingdom, the Urdu language was state language just like during British period the state language was English. So he was quite conversant with these two languages, Urdu, Parsi, and Sanskrit. So he first of all submitted to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "My dear Lord, people address me as panditji." The brāhmaṇas are generally addressed still in India as panditji, means learned. Because brāhmaṇa means learned. A brāhmaṇa cannot be mūrkhaji. That is not possible. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. One who knows the Absolute Truth, he becomes brāhmaṇa; therefore he is addressed as panditji. So Sanātana Gosvāmī submitted that "These ordinary people address me as very learned man, panditji. But I know my position. I do not know myself, what I am. This is my position." Grāmya-vyavahāre kaha ei paṇḍita satya kori māni: "These fools calls me as paṇḍita, and I also think that I am paṇḍita, but actually I do not know what I am." Just see. This is the position. You ask all big, big doctors, scientists, philosophers, and ask him what you are. He will say, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. Bodily. This is going on. And he is fool number one, and he is passing on as the great scientist, great philosopher. One who does not know himself, what is the value of his learning? One must know his own identity. So everyone is identifying with this body-"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Englishman"-and fighting is going on. Why fighting is going on? The living entity is part and parcel of God. He is spiritual spark. He is covered by this material body. Just like we are all human beings. Now we are covered by different dresses. That does not mean we are different. We are one as human being, as inhabitants of this earth, but on account of this dress, I am thinking you are my enemy, you are thinking I am your enemy. So Bhāgavata conclusion is,

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

Anyone who is identifying himself with this body and the land of his bodily growing there in the country, bhauma ijya-dhīḥ… Everyone is thinking, "God is not worshipable. In this land I have taken my birth. This land is my worshipable"-nationalism or this "ism" or that "ism." But he never thinks that "How long I shall be allowed to occupy this body and to occupy this land?" This is called ignorance.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is, the starting point is, the spirit soul. And automatically, unless… In the Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord said the sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up the so-called man-made duties or occupation or dharma. You just surrender unto Me." So actually this is dharma, or religion, to surrender to God. God is one. He is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. God is one. If there is another God, then there is competition. God cannot be two. God is one. Eko brahma dvitīya nasti. That is the Vedic injunction. So God is one. So either you become Hindu or Muslim, the God is one. This is to be understood. So the science of God, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You try to understand scientifically what is meant by God, what is meant by religion. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. He begins His teaching on this principle, that every living being is eternal servant of God. That's all. And this is religion. Religion does not mean stamping in different way. Religion means to know God the great and we are subordinate, maintained by God. This is religion. If anyone knows these two things only-God is great, and we are subordinate; our duty is to abide by the orders of God-that is religion. So unity can be established on the spiritual platform. Unity cannot be established on this bodily platform just like the United Nations trying to unite the nation, but every year a flag is increasing. We have seen in New York. So this kind of unity will never be successful. The United Nations established at least how many years ago? So what they have done? They could not do that. Neither can do anything. Before that, there was another establishment, League of Nations. They are trying to unite the nations not to fight with one another. But because they are contemplating all these nonsense on the bodily platform, it is not possible. It is not possible. If you want to be united, then you have to be united on the spiritual platform. And what is that spiritual platform? The spiritual platform is to understand thoroughly that "God is great, and we are subordinate. God is maintaining us. All the property anywhere, that belongs to God, and we can use the father's property as much as I require, not to take more and stock it. No." The birds, beasts, they are very free. If you put here one bag of rice or any foodstuff, the birds will come, but they will eat only a few grains and go away. And if you put here, say, one thousand bags of wheat and you declare that anyone can take it, there will be fight. There will be fight. Everyone will try to take more. Everyone will try to take more. This is human civilization. The birds will peacefully take few grains and go away. But if you invite the human being, their culture is so-"Oh, I have got so much wheat. Let me take more and stock it for tomorrow or day after tomorrow or for my son, for my grandson, for my great-grandson." (laughter) This foolishness is going on on account of lack of spiritual consciousness.

Spiritual consciousness is, it is stated in the Vedas, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: [Īśo mantra 1] "Everything belongs to God." The food belongs to God, the mine belongs to God, the ocean belongs to God, the land belongs to God, the air belongs to God, and whatever we find here… This is a combination of these five elements: earth, air, water, fire. That's all. So everything belongs to God. We also belong to God. So we should feel obliged to God that He has given so much for our maintenance. [break] …fruits, flowers, vegetables, land, ocean, mine, jewels. So we can use it as much as we require. We cannot collect it and keep it in stock for my future son, grandson, this son, that son. No. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is actually perfect communism. The Communists are thinking in terms of the human being, and that also within the state, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he is thinking in terms of all living beings. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, śuni caiva śva-pāke ca [Bg. 5.18]. In the Bhāgavata it is stated that a householder, before taking his lunch, he should invite on the street, "Sir, if anyone is still hungry, please come at my place. There is still food. You can take it." And he should see that in the household even the lizard he is not hungry. Even there is a snake, he is not hungry. This is Vedic principle, God consciousness, that "Somehow or other, one animal has become lizard. Maybe he is hungry. So at my house he is. Why he should remain hungry? Give him some food." Nobody likes snake, but in the śāstra it is said, "Even there is a snake, you should see that he is not hungry, he is given some food." So of course, it is very high idea, but it is the complete ideal of so-called Communism, real. It is not that nation… American nation, they are concerned with the human being only. Or any nation. Not American, everywhere. And nation means… The definition of "native" means one who has taken birth in that land. That is called native. So the cow is also native. So why this law, that for the benefit of the human being, the cow should be slaughtered? And he is giving milk; he is working for you. What is this philosophy? In Christian religion it is clearly stated, "Thou shalt not kill." And most of the slaughterhouses are in the Christian countries. Why? This is all misunderstanding of spiritual life. Therefore… Just like the discussion went on with the Kazi and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There was no philosophy. He first asked him that "Cow is your mother. Bull is your father. Why you are killing father and mother? What is your religion? Is that very good philosophy, that you shall kill your father and mother and eat them?" This was the first question. According to Vedic civilization, cow is to be given all protection. The Hindus or followers of the Vedic religion, why they are interested to give protection to the cows, not to the…, not so much to the other animals? And Lord Christ is more liberal. He said, "Thou shalt not kill." He does not name any animal's name. Every animal. Every animal should be given protection. That is also the Vedic idea. Why these poor animals should be killed? By killing, killing, killing, you become sinful and entangled. Therefore now it has begun-one is killing his own child.

So this is going on. So in this way we cannot be happy. We shall become more and more entangled in sinful resultant action. And we have to take different types of body. So perpetually it will go on. Therefore this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to awaken every man to God consciousness and just to stop his activities in sinful life, so that he will be purified and he will understand God. Without being purified, nobody can understand what is God. That is not possible.

yeṣām anta-gatāṁ tu pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

And Kṛṣṇa said, God says, "One who is completely freed from sinful life, he can take to devotional service." So therefore we have prescribed four principles, regulative principles: No illicit sex. We don't say "No sex." No illicit sex. No meat-eating. There are so many things, nice things, especially in your country, America, so many nice fruits, so many nice grains, milk. Why should you kill? We are not. We have got hundreds of centers. We are strictly following. And you have taken our prasādam feast. How delicious they are. So why they should kill? The argument is sometimes offered: "The vegetable has got life." Yes, we admit also. But our process is to take the prasādam. Prasādam means we offer foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa and after eating, whatever He left, we take that. This is our principle. We don't take directly. What is the meaning of this temple? We don't use anything directly unless it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. So the vegetable has got life, but Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. We have invited Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as our guest, and He has consented to come here. So we must offer foodstuff, what He wants, not that according to my whims. That is not etiquette. If some respectable guest comes to your house, you ask him, "What shall you eat, sir? What kind of food I can give you?" So whatever he orders, you have to supply. That is real receiving the guest. So Kṛṣṇa says that "Give Me food amongst these items-patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. That also with bhakti, not neglectfully. With great devotion, if somebody offers Me these things, then I can take." So Kṛṣṇa takes these, these patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ, grains, food grains, and milk and vegetables and fruits. So we prepare hundreds of items with these things. You can do that. And they are all delicious and full of vitamins. So why one should kill unnecessarily the poor animals and become vicious and sinful?

So this is Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching, that you live peacefully. Be gentleman. Realize God. Make your life happy in this world and the next world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy. And He wanted to spread this cult in every town, every city, every village. So this group, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is just trying to serve Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And you also see how much beneficial it is. Caitanyera dayāra kathara karaha vicāra. You don't be blind, but try to consider it a little liberally without any, what is called, sophistry? Without any bias, prejudice. Don't be carried by prejudice. Try to understand the philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu and be happy.

Thank you very much.

Devotee: In the Bible they say that the animals don't have soul; therefore it's not the same as killing.

Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is said. [break] …expert in calling Bible, but where it is said, he does not know. He is so expert in Bible (laughter) How do you know? Now, apart from Bible or any scripture, how do you find that the animal has no soul? How do you consider it? What is the symptom of having soul? That is very easy, but you do not know. When the soul is gone from the body, it does not move. And when the soul is there, it moves. This is the understanding of soul. So do you think the animal does not move? The animal has no blood? The animal has no bone? How do you say that animal has no soul? This is foolishness. The soul is there. Even one small ant, there is soul. Otherwise how it is moving? So long the soul is there, the dull material body is moving. And as soon as the soul is gone, you will cry, "My father has gone away." Why your father gone? It is lying there. Why do you say, "My father has gone away"? This is ignorance. We do not know what is soul. We see the body. So long I have seen the body of my father. Now the soul has gone. I am crying, "My father has gone away." But did you see your father? "Yes, that body." The body is there. Why you are crying? So it is very common sense affair to understand where there is soul. A big stone, a big mountain, it cannot move although it is so big. And a small ant is moving. Why? There is soul. So how can you say the animals have no soul? This is ignorance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The soul being within the body means it is changing the body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. And if the child is born dead-no more change of body. That is the proof that there is soul. Soul means the living force which is moving the body. That is soul. How you can say the animal has no soul? Everyone has soul. Even the grass has soul, because it is growing, changing body. [break] …simple thing. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Because all dirty things are within our heart. On account of dirty things we are thinking that "I have got soul, and the animal has no soul." This is due to dirtiness of the heart. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, the heart will be cleansed. Just like a mirror with a dust, you cannot see, but if this dust is cleansed, then you can see your face very nicely. Similarly, because on account of material contamination our heart is unclean, we cannot see things as they are, but the chanting process will cleanse your heart, and then you will see everything in order. Then you will not say the animal has no soul.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, before this movement came here we were so caught up in sinful activities. How is it that we were so fortunate to be benedicted with this great Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted to give you. Now He has come here. You take advantage of it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is kind to everyone. He has no discrimination that this cult should be spread only in India or amongst the Hindus or amongst the brāhmaṇas. No. He wanted to spread this movement to all living being. Never mind. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So now He has come. If you want, accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, "Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is sufficient. But if you want to know more, further, through philosophy, through science, we have got already thirty or fifty books. Read them. Everything is there. Either you accept directly, or if you want to accept through science, through philosophy, through knowledge, there are books. Both ways, Caitanya Mahāprabhu is ready to help you. Now you take advantage of it. And we are glad that you are taking advantage. Now some of you, they have already joined. And in the educational institution, universities, they are also very much appreciative of our literature. So gradually it will be appreciated. But the sooner you take advantage of it is better.

Guest: Śrīla Guru, I would like the name of the tenth avatāra of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the name of the tenth avatāra of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: I think Kalki. Tenth avatāra is Kalki. He will appear in the district of Śambhalapur. His father's name will be Viṣṇu-yaśā, and He will be dressed like a prince and cut all the heads of the demons.

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Because gradually we are so advancing that we shall remain only animal. So there is no need of preaching. Cut the head. Finish them.

Guest (2): What does the name Jehovah mean?

Prabhupāda: That you say. You say. I do not know. What is the meaning of Jehovah? I do not know. Who will say what is the meaning of? You do not know?

Guest (2): I think it's a name for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So why? What is the… Give the word meaning, Jehovah. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's, the word meaning: all-attractive. So God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He can be God? If God is attractive for me only and not to others, then he is not God. God should be attractive… Just like God's knowledge. Kṛṣṇa is giving this Bhagavad-gītā. It is attractive all over the world, among the scholars, among the religionists, public. Not that simply my Bhagavad-gītā is being read. There are many other editions of Bhagavad-gītā. It is widely read because the knowledge is so perfect. So knowledge is an attraction. Riches, wealth, that is attraction. If a man is very rich, just like in your country, Ford, Rockefeller, they are attractive. A man, if he is beautiful, if he is strong, if he is wise, they become attractive. So you will find in Kṛṣṇa all these attractive features. Therefore He is God.

Woman: In the Christian Bible it says that God created all of earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman: He created the waters, he created the animals, but He created the human being in His image, which was the same.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's nice.

Woman: Explain to me then why you say…

Prabhupāda: Then the God is person. God created human beings after His own image-that means He has also two hands, two legs, like us.

Woman: No.

Prabhupāda: Why not? You say. (laughter) You say, "God has created human being after His image." Therefore His image must be like you. Why do you say no?

Woman: Well, then that's controversy to the…

Prabhupāda: Why controversy? First of all let us settle this.

Woman: Controversy not to your religion, but to the other religions that say that we are…

Prabhupāda: Other religion… Why you are concerned with other religion? Talk of what God says in your Bible.

Woman: What it says in my Bible?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are saying that God created human being after His image. Is it not?

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then God, His image is like human being.

Woman: Not according to way, way back because…

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but… (laughter) God has got His two hands and two legs, one head, like human being, but that hands and legs and head may not be exactly like us. But He has got the image.

Woman: I have never seen Him. I do not know.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are speaking? You do not know. Don't talk. (laughter) Then you learn. If you do not know, then you learn who knows. Don't talk.

Woman: I'll listen to you.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect of the modern civilization. One does not know, and he wants to teach. (laughter)

Woman: I want to teach only to understand.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. To understand the God is… We are worshiping the God's image. He has got the two hands, two legs, like us. But His hands and legs are not like our hands and legs. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi. God hand is so expansive, universal, that although He is in His kingdom, in His abode, when you offer something to God, He takes. He can expand His hand in that way. Not only one devotee but at the simultaneously many millions of devotees are offering Him and taking, He is taking. That is His hand. And my hand? Only three feet, that's all. So there is God's hand, but that hand is not like my hand. This is understanding. He can expand His hand millions and trillions of miles. That is His hand. That is explained in the Vedic literature. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. God is vigraha, is form, exactly like our form. But His form is sat cit ānanda. Sat means eternal, and cit means full of knowledge, and ānanda means bliss. So our body, this hand, this leg, this body, is not sac-cid-ānanda. It is not eternal; it will be finished. But God's body will never be finished. That is the difference. He has got His body, and I have got my body. But this body will be finished at a certain date, but His body will remain eternally. That is the difference between God's body and my body. Sat and cit. His body or He Himself knows everything, past, present and future, but I do not know what is beyond this wall. Therefore my knowledge is always imperfect, and God's knowledge is perfect. This is sac, cit. And ānanda. You see in our temple is… God is in dancing always. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, you will never see there is crying. No. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is enjoying. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying in the company of Rādhārāṇī. This is blissfulness. And although we have got our wife, there are so many difficulties to maintain. That's it. He has got His body, but His body is different from our this body. Although apparently He has got two hands, two legs, but they are unlimitedly potential, full of bliss. That's a… God can expand. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati: [Bg. 18.61] "The Lord is situated in everyone's heart." But we cannot do that. I cannot even know what you are feeling, pains and pleasure. But God He can know. Otherwise why we offer prayer to God? He knows. In this way you have to study what is God. Although apparently He has got two hands, two legs, but that hands and legs are not like ours. We have got our hands and legs. That is within this body. Just like your coat has got hand, but that hand is not real hand-the real hand is within the coat-similarly, we have got also hands and legs, but that is within this material body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yau… [Bg. 2.13]. Within this body. We should not be concerned with your coat and shirt. We should be concerned with you. Similarly, we are now materially dressed. We should not be concerned with the dress. We should be concerned what is there within the dress. That is knowledge. That is knowledge. So it is a science, and the science is very nicely described in all scriptures, especially Bhagavad-gītā. So as a human being, we have got this privilege, to understand, to go to the right person to take the meaning. Meaning is very clear, but we create some mismeaning. That is another thing. Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." It is very clear and simple thing, but we make some interpretation, "This, that, this." Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Don't make the meaning perverted. Take it as it is. Then you become perfect. "Thou shalt not kill"-if you take this as it is, then you become perfect. But if you add your own meaning and go on killing and still you become a Christian, that is your business.

Devotee (2): If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? Like, if an entity is fortunate enough to revive his natural constitutional position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling…

Prabhupāda: How your Nixon is dragged down? How your President Nixon is dragged down? He was in the exalted post, and why he was dragged down?

Devotee (3): They dragged him down.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forced to come down. Why?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He broke the rules.

Prabhupāda: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly… The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses-he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately māyā will capture. This māyā means this material world.

Woman: In the Christian Bible it says that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and you can only get to God through him.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Woman: No. What is…? Do…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We admit that. He is the perfect son, and if you take shelter of the lotus feet of the perfect son, you go to back to home, back to Godhead. That's a fact.

Woman: Is that true of Christ or…

Prabhupāda: Yes. As he advises. Just like he says, "Thou shalt not kill." But if you kill, at the same time take shelter of Christ, what is the meaning? First of all you try to follow him; then you can go through him. But you don't care for him-what is the meaning of go through him?

Woman: Believe in him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Believe in strongly.

Woman: Believe that he is the son of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Believe or not believe, he is son. And if you are fortunate, you follow his path and you become perfect. You believe or not believe, God is there. Similarly, you believe or not believe, God's son is there, God's devotee is there, everyone is there. God is not alone. Just like if you say, "Now here the king is coming," "the king is coming" means he is coming with his ministers, his commander-in-chief, his secretaries and so many, hundreds of men, soldiers… Similarly, when we speak of God, God is not alone. He has got His sons, He has got His friends, He has got His father, He has got His mother, He has got His beloved, everything. That is God. Yes?

Guest (4): Who was Meher Baba?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not know. (laughter) There are so many bogus Babas. I do not know. (laughter) What is the use of knowing Meher Baba? If I know Kṛṣṇa, that is sufficient. That's all. Why shall I go to know this and that? That's all right. So is there a question…? All right, what is that question?

Devotee (4): Many people say, "No one can become perfect." How can we help them understand that there is…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No one is a perfect. Therefore you should take lessons from the perfect. That's all. Then you become perfect. Otherwise why there are instructions just like Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill"? That means "You are imperfect; therefore you are killing. Take my instruction. Don't do it. You become perfect." That's all. We are all imperfect. We have to take lesson from the perfect. Then we become perfect. Yes?

Nirantara: Prabhupāda, what pleases you the most?

Prabhupāda: If you love Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee (5): Prabhupāda, I would like to know if the Supersoul is, and the spirit soul, are they the same in the heart of…

Prabhupāda: Same is quality. But the individual soul is not exactly like the Supersoul. The Supersoul is within you and within me, within everywhere. But I, individual soul, I am only within me. You are within you. That is the difference. I cannot feel your pains and pleasure; neither you can feel my pains and pleasure. Therefore we are individual. But Supersoul, because He is in everyone's heart, He knows what is going on in everyone's body. That is Supersoul. Therefore He is called Supersoul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Supersoul, He is God. He can expand Himself in millions and millions of places. But I cannot do that; you cannot do that.

Devotee (5): Prabhupāda, if our body should meet death while engaged in your service, will our transmigration be protected in the ultimate…?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says if our body should meet death while performing devotional service, will we be protected in transmigrating?

Prabhupāda: There are two kinds of bodies: the gross body and the subtle body. The gross body is a material combination of earth, water, air, fire, ether, and the subtle body is combination of mind, intelligence and ego. So this gross body and subtle body, within that, there is the spirit soul. So that is eternal. And this gross body and subtle body is changing according to the change of the situation. So when you remain in your spiritual body, that is eternal. Therefore to keep in spiritual body is to accept devotional service. Then you are beyond this material gross body and subtle body. You remain in your spiritual body. And if you give up this body at the time of death, means giving up this body, then in spiritual body you go to back to home, back to Godhead. So in order to keep yourself in spiritual body you should always be engaged in devotional service, and that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

Then you become Brahman or spirit soul. Yes?

Devotee (6): In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it states that to understand Kṛṣṇa and to improve our relationship with Him we must understand the spiritual master. What is the best way to understand him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that it states in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that to understand Kṛṣṇa the best way is to understand the spiritual master. What is the best way to do that?

Prabhupāda: If you want to learn something, so you must learn from a person who knows that something. The spiritual master's business is that he knows Kṛṣṇa well. So you try to understand Kṛṣṇa through him. This is the idea. Yes?

Devotee (7): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material scientists… Unfortunately, many people have put their faith in the material scientists today. [break]

Prabhupāda: …go to moon, what benefit you derive? You will die also. So anywhere you go within this material world, birth, death, old age and disease will follow. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokān

punar āvartinaḥ arjuna

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramam

Instead of going to moon planet, why not engage your energy for going to back to home, back to Godhead, wherefrom you will not come back again? Yes?

Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Sikh-dharma they say to chant the holy names of God, and so far I haven't encountered the name "Kṛṣṇa" in the scriptures. I have encountered "Govinda," "Mukunda," "Rāma" and…, but the main name that is chanted is Viduḥ. And I was wondering if you could comment on…, on the Sikh-dharma.

Prabhupāda: It is very good. It is very good. Guru Nanak, he chanted the name, holy name of Rāma, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Govinda. So if we follow Guru Nanak, we are fortunate. Anyone who presents a science of God, it doesn't matter whether he is this man or that man; he is our guru. Yes?

Girl: Why is it all right to kill any plants? How are they different from animals?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She is asking, "What is the difference between killing a plant and eating it and killing an animal and eating it?"

Prabhupāda: The same fault. Either you kill animal or plant, the same sin is there just like if you kill an uncivilized and if you kill a big man, the punishment is the same, hanging. You cannot say that "I have killed one uncivilized man." No. That you cannot do. Similarly, you cannot kill even plant. But we have to live. Therefore we can kill plant under the order of the Supreme. Just like I have already explained. Kṛṣṇa said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Patraṁ means plant. So Kṛṣṇa wants it. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we can do that. Just like Arjuna did. Arjuna did not like to kill his brothers, but Kṛṣṇa said that "This is My desire." "All right, I shall kill." This is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. When Kṛṣṇa says, we can do everything, not for our personal self. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. That another crude example: just like a soldier. When he is fighting by the order of the state, he is getting gold medal and killing. His business is killing. But the same man, when he comes home, if he kills one person, then he is hanged. Why? He could say that "My business is killing. I am soldier. I have killed this man." "No. This is for your account. On the battlefield you killed for the state's account; therefore you were eulogized. You were given reward." Similarly, we can kill only on the order of the Supreme. Otherwise we cannot kill even a plant. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña means for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, whatever you do, you are not implicated with sinful activities. And bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. And a person who is doing on his own capacity, he is simply acquiring sinful resultant action. So the conclusion is: even a plant you cannot kill, what to speak of bigger animals. If one thinks that "I am killing only plants; therefore I am very pious, vegetarian," no. There is no question of vegetarian, nonvegetarian. They are equally sinful. Only those who are taking prasādam, they are free from sinful activities. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. All right, thank you… Again? More questions? (laughter) All right, one more question.

Devotee (8): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we're performing devotional service and an insect is in the way, like if you're painting the walls and you find this ant and you must paint this wall to please the spiritual master, what is the attitude?

Prabhupāda: I have already said. You cannot kill even an ant without permission. So if you want to kill, you should take permission of higher authorities. (end)

750329LE.MAY

Lecture on Manipur Dancing

Māyāpur, March 29, 1975

Prabhupāda:

oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]

śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ

sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

[When will Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī Prabhupāda, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?]

he kṛṣṇa karuṇā-sindho

dīna-bandho jagat-pate

gopeśa gopīkā-kānta

rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te

[O my dear Kṛṣṇa, ocean of mercy, You are the friend of the distressed and the source of creation. You are the master of the cowherdmen and the lover of the gopīs, especially Rādhārāṇī. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You.]

Kṛṣṇa is gopīka-kānta. Rādhā-kānta. That is Kṛṣṇa's real identification. He is gopīka-kānta, and He is Rādhā-kānta. This relationship with Kṛṣṇa and gopīs, that is the highest perfectional realization of the Absolute Truth.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

Kṛṣṇa's real identification means ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ. He is ānanda, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], and His expansion of ānanda are these gopīs, ānanda-cinmaya. But that is not this material thing. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa, that mellow, that taste, that humor, that is completely spiritual. We should not misunderstand this līlā, or pastimes of Kṛṣṇa with the gopīs, that material lusty affairs. Then we'll be misled. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ. The activities of the Vraja-vadhu, the damsels of Vṛndāvana, vikrīḍitam, activities, vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ, bhaktiṁ parāṁ pratilabhya hṛd-roga-kāma apahinoti.

Our material existence is due to our lusty desires in the heart. That is hṛd-rogam. That is our heart disease. And we are suffering in this material world for this heart disease life after life. People have lost their intelligence that they cannot understand that there is life after death. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. They have become so fools and rascals that they do not understand this simple truth as it is said in the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. We are seeking after this pleasure of Kṛṣṇa with the gopīs or with the cowherds boys. Kṛṣṇa has got many associates, and the topmost associates are the gopīs. So we are seeking after that happiness, but we are being misled by the lusty desires. So I am very glad to see the dance, Manipuri dance, but it should be properly utilized. It should not be utilized as lusty dance. It is ānanda-cinmaya, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1], His expansion.

So people are hankering after happiness because he's part and parcel of sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, we are seeking the same spiritual happiness, but we are being misled by māyā. That we should be very much cautious under the guidance of proper spiritual master. And this morning we're discussing this verse from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir ahladini-śaktir asmat. The rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtiḥ, loving affairs between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and the gopīs are expansion of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. That is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. That is not material thing. It is a transformation of the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir ahlādinī-śaktir asmāt. So this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is meant for taking these misguided living beings to the topmost perfection of life in the rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛti. This is the aim of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and in India still, in Manipur, the idea is being cultivated, and I shall be very glad that you Europeans and Americans who are present here may catch up this idea and introduce in your country. And actually they'll be happy if they follow the principles that vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ.

These activities between the gopīs and Viṣṇu… Kṛṣṇa is the origin of Viṣṇu. So, anuśṛṇuyāt if we repeatedly… Anu means constantly, and anu means following. The process is to follow or to chant about Kṛṣṇa's activities. Follow means in the paramparā system to understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Do not understand or misunderstand Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being like one of us. No. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Kṛṣṇa comes to attract you, that "You are seeking after happiness. Here is the happiness. Come to Me. Dance with Me." But we are misled. There is life like this, that you can dance with Kṛṣṇa, you can play with Kṛṣṇa, you can enjoy with Kṛṣṇa. So that requires training. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. These things are there. If you become trained up, then exactly after giving up this life, you can go to dance with Kṛṣṇa. That is possible. It is not a myth, mythology, as rascals think. No. You can have this life, dance with Kṛṣṇa, play with Kṛṣṇa. Simply you have to become trained up. Then, as Kṛṣṇa says,

janma karma ca me divyam

evaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti kaunteya

[Bg. 4.9]

You can go. But don't misunderstand. Kṛṣṇa and His pastimes with the gopīs, you should understand it properly-tattvam. That is called tattvam.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

You must understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, in fact.

So Kṛṣṇa comes Himself to teach you, to show you what does He do in His Goloka Vṛndāvana. And if we are fortunate enough, be attracted with the Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, and if we constantly think of it, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14], then your life will be perfect. That is the aim and purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We want to give to the human society the highest blessing, the most perfectional platform of life. So my request is that those who are becoming interested in Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they may not be misled. Kṛṣṇa's activities with Rādhārāṇī and the gopīs, they are completely spiritual, ahlādinī-śaktiḥ. And if we understand properly about Kṛṣṇa's activities, then ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]-we reach to the platform of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Because we are seeking after ānanda, bliss… That is the information from the Vedānta-sūtra. Ānandamaya abhyāsāt. We living entities, we are by nature blissful, seeking after happiness. But this happiness is not possible if we become compact in material activities. If you seek the happiness in the material platform, you'll be frustrated. It is to be sought after in the spiritual platform. So actually it is forbidden that sannyāsīs should not see any dancing by woman or any singing by woman, but we are not violating these rules. Just to remember that here is a hint how Kṛṣṇa is spiritually enjoying, if we see and hear on that spirit, then it is very good; otherwise it is not good. So if he is actually guided by these verses in the Vedic literature…

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

vikrīḍitaṁ vrana-vadhūbhir idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ

śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ

bhaktiṁ parāṁ pratilabhya hṛd-roga-

kāmān apahinoty āśu dhīraḥ

So we should always remember this rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir ahlādinī-śaktir asmāt. Then it will be very much beneficial.

So this kind of dancing is very welcome all over the world if we do not misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. That should be the precaution. Otherwise it is very, very good. And our purpose is to introduce these Kṛṣṇa pastimes all over the world so that they may take lesson that they are seeking after happiness; the happiness is with Kṛṣṇa, not in the material world, Then you'll be successful.

Thank you very much. (end)

750406LE.MAY

Lecture After Play

Māyāpur, April 6, 1975

Prabhupāda: …dramatical performance. It is very nice. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu also introduced this dramatical play when He was gṛhastha at Navadvīpa, and all the devotees used to see. But they were played by all males. There was no such thing, female taking part. This female taking part was later on introduced by one dramatist, by Girish Chandra Ghose, imitating the Western way of dramatical play. Otherwise, in our childhood, we never saw any dramatical play performed by woman. So if you organize this kind of play, at least they'll be appreciated by the saintly order. The sannyāsīs also can see, but parts played by women, the sannyāsīs cannot see. That is not…, strictly prohibited. By Caitanya Mahāprabhu's personal example we can see that there was a dancing and musical play by women in the Jagannātha temple. Of course, ordinary visitors, they can see, but sannyāsīs or brahmacārīs, they are strictly prohibited. So when the music was going on, Caitanya Mahāprabhu became very ecstatic, that "Such a nice music is coming from Jagannātha temple. Let Me go and see." Then His personal servant Govinda prohibited Him, "Sir, these songs are from woman." "Oh? It is from woman? Govinda, you have saved My life." (laughter) So sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs are strictly prohibited to hear or to see dancing woman. Of course, in your country it is very difficult. But at least if such play, dramatical play performed, the sannyāsīs, brahmacārīs cannot take part. But if the parts are played by male members, everyone can see, in front of the Deity. There is no harm.

Thank you very much. (end)

750414L2.HYD

Life Member House Lecture

Hyderabad, April 14, 1975

Prabhupāda: So Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, kīṭa janma hao yathā tuyā dāsa, bahir nā brahma janme nāhi mora āsa. Kītā janma hao yathā tuyā dāsa. Tuyā dāsa means your servant. Actually we are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. Jīvera svarūpa hoy nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa. But forgetting our position, we are now acting as dāsa of māyā, māyāra-dāsa. Hoiya māyāra dāsa kori nānā abhilāṣ. The advantage of Kṛṣṇa dāsa is that he has got only one desire. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]-to serve Kṛṣṇa purely. That's all. Kṛṣṇa is not impersonal. Kṛṣṇa is person, and whatever He orders, whatever He says, if you carry out faithfully, then our original constitutional position is regained. It can be done very quickly. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And if you do that immediately, then you revive your original position immediately, within a second. Hoiya māyāra dāsa kori nānā abhilās. We are making plans in so many ways to be happy. But if we accept this one plan, that immediately surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful. And if we do not accept this proposal of Kṛṣṇa, and if we make our own plans to be happy, it will be never be possible. Hoiya māyāra dāsa kori nānā abhilāṣ. Anādi bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gelā, ataeva māyāra tare goliyā badila. We are not independent. If we do not agree to serve Kṛṣṇa, then we have to serve māyā. Our position as servant is never changed. We remain servant. So if we don't agree to accept Kṛṣṇa's proposal sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], then we have to take shelter of māyā and you have to perpetually serve. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19].

To serve māyā means to continue this material existence one after another. Now I've got this body, you've got this body, and if we do not change our attitude to serve Kṛṣṇa, then we get again next body. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. We can see. There are so many trees, plants, insects, animals. They're all living entities. Also there are nice body-Americans, Europeans, beautiful body, or demigod's body. There are different bodies, eight million… So long we shall remain māyā-dāsa, we have to change this body one after another. It may be of higher standard or it may be of lower standard. That will depend on my work. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. This is the philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are… We are not independent. We are completely under the control of material nature, and we get different types of bodies on account of associating with different modes of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅga asya sad-asad janma yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Sat, asat, there are two kinds of status quo, sat and asat. Sat means nice, or eternal, and asat means not very nice. So either you can get the body of the human society or you can get a body in the hog society, dog society. But the activities of the hogs and dogs and human being, if it is carried on in ignorance, eating, sleeping, mating… Then there is no difference. There is no difference. There is no difference to become a hog or to become a man. A man is also eating; hog is also eating according to one's taste. The man is also sleeping; the hog is also sleeping, according to the position. So that does not make any difference between a human being and a hog. But at the present moment we are taken this civilization that hog is eating stool, and if we are eating very nice plate, then you're civilized. But śāstra says no. Eating and the taste of eating is the same. Always enjoying eating stool, and you're enjoying eating something else-the taste of eating is the same. There is no difference. You like something; I like something. But the common formula is that you eat, I also eat. Therefore we have to change this formula. If you simply waste our time like the hogs-eating, sleeping, sex-life and defense-then that is not human life.

Human life is meant for tapasya. That is not possible by the hogs and dogs. Tapasya, austerities. By austerities, by tapasya we can purify our existence. You are existing at the present moment because we are changing body, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralī… Therefore it is polluted existence. This is not pure existence. Pure existence is eternal life, blissfulness and knowledge, full of knowledge. That is pure life. So the human life is meant for purifying our existence. Stop this continuation of birth, death, old age and disease and live eternally blissful life of knowledge. That is the business of human life. But people do not take this fact very seriously. They have become so dull-headed. Now there is freedom from this continuation of birth, death, old age and disease, they cannot believe it. They cannot consider it. They think, "Ah, it is going on." So the modern civilization is quite different from the Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization means to make a solution of this problem: stop this process of birth, death, old age and disease. That is Vedic civilization. That is human civilization. And to become better hog, nicely dressed hog, that is not Vedic civilization. That is hog civilization.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save people from the hog civilization or dog civilization to human civilization. That is… Human civilization means plain living and advancing in spiritual consciousness, not to increase unnecessarily artificial way of life. But we should know what is the aim of life and try to actually (achieve) success in the aim of life in any condition. That is Vedic civilization. Any condition. Any condition means in the material world we find that somebody is well situated and somebody… We think like that. Nobody is well situated. But we think like that. So if we want to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in any material condition we can do that. Ahaituky apratihatā. Any material condition cannot check our advancement in spiritual life. Just like these European, American boys and girls, they're not accustomed to sit down on the ground. In their country that is not their civilization. They sit down very nicely on chairs and very nice apartment. But because they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not hesitate to sit down in any condition of life. This is advancement. They do not grudge that "We are not accustomed to sit in this way." No. That is any condition, any condition of life. Kṛṣṇa also says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

[Bg. 9.32]

So we can accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness in any condition life. There is no impediment. That is spiritual. That is spiritual. Not that "Unless such and such conditions are fulfilled I cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." No. As I told in the beginning, that you can accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness within a second. As Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you immediately take Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa…" You have thoroughly read Bhagavad-gītā, then we understand that "We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. Why not surrender?" That is intelligence. Kṛṣṇa says that is the way of life. Ultimately one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the success, ultimate success. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. One is accepting immediately and one is experimenting with truth, and it will take many, many births. Kleśa adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Kṛṣṇa is presently instructing in person, and foolish people are thinking that He's imperson. Why imperson? Kṛṣṇa is always speaking: mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. The first person is used everywhere. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Aham. Kṛṣṇa says aham, person. So why we should think of Kṛṣṇa being imperson? This is our misfortune. Therefore it takes many, many births. Even one is jñānavān it takes many, many births to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19]. Although he's jñānavān, superficially, still his jñāna has been taken away. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānā. Although he's proud of his knowledge, the māyā says, "No, no, no. Why you are accepting Kṛṣṇa as person? He's imperson." So māyā is dictating and taking away his knowledge. māyayā apahṛta-jñānā. Kṛṣṇa says aham, "I, Me." These are first person, person, first person. And still these people are thinking of Kṛṣṇa as imperson. Why? This is called māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. They have studied the Vedic literature but could not understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

So intelligent person, instead of waiting many, many births to understand Kṛṣṇa, may take it immediately what Kṛṣṇa says, as it is. Then his life is successful. So that is possible to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is saying. But because on account of our sinful activities, we cannot understand. Duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina means always engaged in sinful activities, very intelligent person, but engaged in sinful activities. Nowadays… All the people are nowadays educated, but all of them, mostly, ninety-nine percent, they're engaged in sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. These are sinful activities and, in spite of advancement of education all over the world, these things are going on. Therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is understood by a person who is no more engaged in sinful activities.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

So we are trying, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose, that stop sinful activities and hear Kṛṣṇa and accept Him as He is saying. Then your life is successful. That's all. Very simple thing. And those who are adopting this ways, this process of life, is becoming successful practically. There is no doubt about it. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu. Asaṁśayam, without any doubt. Samagram, in full, not partial.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi…

[Bg. 7.1]

So Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself that yathā jñāsyasi, without any doubt, asaṁśayam, and samagram. Samagram means in fullness, the Absolute Truth in full. The Absolute Truth is realized as Brahman, as Paramātmā, as Bhagavān. So Kṛṣṇa says, "I'm giving you full knowledge, both of Paramātmā and Brahman and My personal knowledge." Yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu, "Just hear, hear from Me."

So this is the opportunity in human life. Kṛṣṇa is explaining, God is explaining Himself, and still if you remain dulls and fools and rascals, then it is our misfortune. That is explained narādhama. Narādhama. Narādhama cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Narādhama, lowest of the mankind. Narādhama. Nara means man and adhama means lowest. So those who are narādhama they will escape this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise anyone who is intelligent, intelligent after many, many birth's experience, he'll accept. So we can understand by this crucial test or test tube(?) what is what. So anyway, our business is you Western boys and girls, you have taken this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very seriously. I'm very much thankful to you. So try to make the people uttama, although at the present moment they are narādhama, without understanding Kṛṣṇa. So these are not exaggeration. This is stated in the śāstra. And our point is that anyone who is not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's among these groups-duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā apahṛta-jñānā āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. The basic principle is āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Asura. Asura means against God always. Rāvaṇa was asura. Hiraṇyakaśipu was asura. They are very learned scholar, son of a brāhmaṇa and very powerful. The only fault was they did not believe in God; therefore they are called asuras. So anyone who does not believe in God, he's asura. This is the verdict of the śāstra. And this asuric civilization is going on all over the world. So we are making little effort to make the asuras devotees. That's all. This is our business.

So we are very much thankful to Mr. Kulanidhi(?). He has given us a place, very important place, and you are constructing temple. He's always eager to help us. Therefore he's a bhakta. We are very much thankful to him. He's a bhakta. So at any moment Mr. Kulanidhi will call us. We are ready to come here, because he's a bhakta. Mad-bhakta pūjyā adhikaḥ. Kṛṣṇa likes if you honor the bhakta. Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. "If you love me, love my dog." We have seen in the Western countries when two gentlemen meet, he pats his friend's dog and he pats the friend's dog. That you have seen it. (laughs) First of all dog, "How are you? How are you?" (everyone laughs) So let us all become dogs of Kṛṣṇa, and bhaktas will love us.

Thank you very much. (end)

750414LE.HYD

Lecture on Science of Kṛṣṇa

Hyderabad, April 14, 1975

Prabhupāda: [break] …śakti, śaktimān. The Supreme Lord is śaktimān. Just like the sun and the sunshine and the Sun-god, and practically they are one. From the Sun-god there is… The abode of the Sun-god is the sun globe, and the shining of the sun globe is also sunshine. So in one sense they are one, in other sense they are different. Just like the sunshine is reaching here, it does not mean the sun globe is reaching here. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: [Bg. 9.4] "I am spread." So sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Kṛṣṇa. But at the same time, if you commit mistake… The same way, "Because the sunshine is here, therefore sun is here." That is a mistake. This is viśiṣṭa-advaita. They are all one, advaya-jnana, but still they're different. Advaita-viśiṣṭa. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jnanam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. Advayam means advaya, advaita, no difference, the same thing. But viśiṣṭa. This is Brahman, this is Paramātmā, viśiṣṭa. Advaita but viśiṣṭa. A specific reference: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, they are one. But still, you cannot say Brahman is Bhagavān. The same example: the sunshine and the sun globe, they are one. Unless there is appearance of the sun globe, sun planet, you cannot have sunshine. So in that sense, they are one, but still if you take sunshine as the sun globe, that is not correct.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're all one.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But still there is specific differences. That is called viśiṣṭa. One with specific difference. And the Māyāvādī philosophers, they say, "No, there is no specific difference. This is māyā." But we Vaiṣṇava, we don't say that. That sunshine is sunshine, sun globe is sun globe, and Sun-god is Sun-god. But taken together, they are all one. Diversity in unity. That is viśiṣṭa-advaitavāda. So actually, all the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, and Viṣṇu Svāmī, there is no difference of opinion, but they have explained the Absolute Truth more vividly in their own angle of vision. Otherwise there is no difference. They never say that God and the living being are one. They will never say that. That is not Vaiṣṇava philosophy. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. So the propounder of Māyāvāda philosophy is Śaṅkarācārya and other Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, practically they are all one opinion. There is no, they differ from Śaṅkarācārya.

And if we study philosophy intelligently, then we can understand that living being, jīva, how he can become one with the Supreme? Then why he has become jīva? Jīva is eternally. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loka sanātana [Bg. 15.7]. Sanātana. Sanātana means eternally. He is fragmental parts of the Supreme. Not that by māyā he is thinking fragmental parts, but actually he is one. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. Kṛṣṇa says, sanātana. He is fragmental parts, sanātana, eternally. Besides that, it is clearly explained in the Bhagavad-gītā that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces, acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam, so how it becomes a small fragment? Acchedyo 'yam, you cannot cut into pieces, spirit. And it is further explained that these fragmental parts eternally, from the very beginning. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "My dear Arjuna, you, Me and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled there, they existed like this in the past, they're existing in the same way, and they'll continue to exist like that." There is no question of becoming one. Past, present, future, always we are distinct. So how they can be one sanātana? We are part and parcel sanātana, eternally. But in quality we are one. In quality we are one. Kṛṣṇa is eternal. We are eternal. Kṛṣṇa is spirit. We are spirit. Kṛṣṇa is also person. We are also person. In this way, we are one but He is the great, and we are servants. This is actual position. And if we claim that after being freed from māyā, we shall become one with the Supreme, that is called Māyāvāda. We eternally, we are separate. Dvaitavāda. That is Madhvācārya's philosophy, dvaitavāda. So if you consider very cool-headed, then Vaiṣṇava philosophy is the best, not this Māyāvāda philosophy.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not under karma. That is difference. That is difference between me and Kṛṣṇa. We are…

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But He is not under karma. He is not under karma. Yes. We are. That is the difference.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Woman: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That I am pointing out. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. We are bound up by the laws and regulation of karma. But Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Yes. That is the difference. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma-phale spṛhā [Bg. 4.14]. He's not bound up by the karma. But we take sometimes, mistake, that Kṛṣṇa is like us. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. They are mūḍhas. They do not know it, what is Kṛṣṇa. They think Kṛṣṇa as a human being like us. That is mūḍha. Therefore they do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mudhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So they remain narādhama. They do not make any progress.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Who has interpreted?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we accept also. We say māyā. But one can be free from māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then one is not captivated by māyā. Māyā is there. Just like police is there. If you are not a criminal, then police has nothing to do with you. Police may be there. But if you are a criminal, then police will arrest you. Similarly, māyā is acting as police force of Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you become criminal, forget Kṛṣṇa as your master, then the police, māyā, will capture you. That is the business.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāsate māyāra tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

As soon as you try to become independent of Kṛṣṇa, immediately māyā captures. This is the beginning of māyā. And again when you surrender, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. No more māyā. So to become free from māyā is very easy provided one understands Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as he understands Kṛṣṇa, he understands his duty, that my duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa, that is called bhakti, immediately he becomes free from all the contamination of māyā. Sa gunān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Who? Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate [Bg. 14.26]. If you employ yourself immediately in loving service of Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇa also says, māyām etāṁ taranti te. So all the devotees they are not under māyā. They're already in liberated stage. Therefore a devotee does not want liberation because he's already liberated. Why he'll aspire about liberation? That is explained by Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate asmān. Mukti is standing before me with folded hand, "What can I do for you?" So why the devotees will aspire (to) mukti? Mukti is ready to serve him as maidservant. This is the position of devotee. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate, this is the great authority, Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Yes?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Prapati is the beginning of bhakti. Prapati is the beginning of bhakti. Unless you are accepting the principle of prapa…, surrender, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, there is no question of bhakti. Bhakti is the process of surrender fully.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There is no difference. There is no difference. Nārāyaṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is Nārāyaṇa. And oṁ namo is addressing Him, "Oh Nārāyaṇa, please engage me in Your service." Hare Kṛṣṇa is also addressing. Hare, Hara, the potency of Kṛṣṇa or the potency or energy of Kṛṣṇa, "Oh Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. The same meaning. There is no difference. The real business is that Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. That is Kṛṣṇa's mission. And if we voluntarily surrender, then Kṛṣṇa becomes very pleased. So this is surrender. "Oh Kṛṣṇa, Oh energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me again in Your service." That's all. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "Oh Hara, Oh Kṛṣṇa." Because Kṛṣṇa's there, Kṛṣṇa's energy is there. Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. So Kṛṣṇa's one energy is this material energy, mama māyā. This māyā is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. It is not different from Kṛṣṇa. Śakti śaktimatayor abheda. There is no difference between fire and the heat. Heat is also fire. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy, they're one. At the same time, different. This is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. Simultaneously one and different.

So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy. If we pray to Kṛṣṇa's energy, she is Kṛṣṇa's energy, she will understand, "Now, he is now correct." So she gives facilities. She gives facilities, "Yes, now you can serve Kṛṣṇa. I give you… I give you freedom. You are no more under my clutches." Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Immediately you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are immediately liberated. We haven't got to search out liberation separately. Immediately surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately you are liberated, immediately, simultaneous. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. At that time māyā takes another feature. That is called yoga-māyā. The same māyā Just like the same government laws acting in the prison house differently, and acting in the university differently. But the potency is the same. If we take protection of the civil laws, then you are happy. And if we take protection of the criminal laws then you are unhappy. That's all. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you have to take shelter of one of the potencies of Kṛṣṇa. Better take the shelter of the spiritual potency. Then you become happy. You cannot be free. That is not possible. Just like you cannot defy the government laws. That is not possible. If you defy civil laws then you become subjected to the criminal law. You cannot say that "I defy government." That is not possible. Similarly, you cannot defy Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's potencies. Better you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's spiritual potency and be happy. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13], that is mahātmā, who takes shelter of the spiritual potency of Kṛṣṇa. And what is the sign? Bhajanty ananya-manaso. That is mahātmā. He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours. Then he is immediately mukta. That is not difficult. So any other question?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If there is sense… If there is sense that Lord Śiva is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel, then it is all right. But if he thinks Lord Śiva is separate authority, then it is mistake. Kṛṣṇa says… What is that śloka? Verse, you recite? Ye yathā mām…

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is "I," Kṛṣṇa. That is "I," Kṛṣṇa. If you understand this demigod… Just like this finger. If you understand this finger belongs to Swamijī, then you are correct. And if you think that this finger is separate power, that is incorrect. This finger is powerful so long attached to the body. And if you cut the finger from the body, it has no power. Similarly, the demigods, if you accept that they are different part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa-there must be relationship with Kṛṣṇa-then it is correct. Just like it is said, sūrya, sūrya upāsanā, that or durgā upāsanā. These are different upāsanā, sūrya, or pañcopāsanā, durgā upāsanā, sūrya upāsanā, gaṇeśa upāsanā, and viṣṇu upāsanā. Pañcopāsanā. So how we can worship? Just like Durgā. Durgā is worshiped by the Vaiṣṇava in this way, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva ya… [Bs. 5.44]. [break](end)

750420SP.VRN

Speech

Vṛndāvana, April 20, 1975

Prabhupāda:

…kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmine gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ

sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

[When will Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī Prabhupāda, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?]

he kṛṣṇa karuṇā-sindho

dīna-bandho jagat-pate

gopeśa gopikā-kānta

rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te

[O my dear Kṛṣṇa, ocean of mercy, You are the friend of the distressed and the source of creation. You are the master of the cowherdmen and the lover of the gopīs, especially Rādhārāṇī. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You.]

hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare

hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare

[My dear Lord, and the spiritual energy of the Lord, kindly engage me in Your service. I am now embarrassed with this material service. Please engage me in Your service.]

Śrīman Rajya-pala Sahib… (Hindi). Acyutānanda Swami, he has tried to speak in Hindi, and you have heard him. So similarly, (Hindi). So he has given me permission to speak in English.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (chuckles) Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is addressed by Rūpa Gosvāmī as mahā-vadānyāya.

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmine gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmine. He has assumed the name of Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. Actually He is Kṛṣṇa. That is confirmed in many literature. Especially in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said,

kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣa ākṛṣṇaṁ

sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam

yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ

[SB 11.5.32]

So Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after taking His sannyāsa order, His name was Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. So Rūpa Gosvāmī said that "You are Kṛṣṇa. You have now come as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." Why? Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te: [Cc. Madhya 19.53] "Just to distribute love of Kṛṣṇa." And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission was premā pum-artho mahān. Generally people understand dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], but Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that above mokṣa, above liberation, there is love of God. That is wanted. Premā pum-artho mahān. And this is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām, vāstavya-vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. And Śrīdhara Swami says that kaitava-dharma… In simple word, cheating. Kaitava means cheating, or false. So when there are false dealings, that is cheating. So according to Vyāsadeva, dharma artha kāma mokṣa, that is not very essential thing. Real thing is how to advance in the science of loving God, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa-prema. And the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says,

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yena ātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

If you want really peace, then you should stand on the platform of paro dharma. Paro dharma. Just like Kṛṣṇa has described, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāh. Parā and para. Parā is applicable to the puruṣa, and para is applicable to the prakṛti. So we are prakṛti, we are not puruṣa. Puruṣa is Kṛṣṇa, as described by Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gītā, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. And in the Brahma-saṁhitā also it is: ādi-puruṣaṁ. Kṛṣṇa is described, ādi-puruṣaṁ. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ, anādiḥ ādiḥ govindam tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. [Bs. 5.1]

So this Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa personally came to teach Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. He came here in this district Mathurā. And the Kṛṣṇa birthplace is still there. So Kṛṣṇa personally came to teach the science of Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. And although He proposed that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya sambhavāmi yuge yuge, but at the end He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And this is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that dharma-projjhita kaitavo atra. Except surrendering to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, anything which is going on in the name of dharma, that is not dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. When Kṛṣṇa came, He did not come to reestablish Hindu religion or Christian religion or Muslim religion. No. Religion is religion. Gold is gold. You cannot say "Hindu gold," "Muslim gold," "Christian gold." That is not possible. That is not possible. That is called kaitava-dharma, cheating dharma. Gold is gold, pure gold. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "Dharma means the order or the law given by God." That is dharma. This is the simple explanation of dharma. If you want to know what do we mean by dharma, then dharma means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like law. Law means which is given, sanctioned by the governor. You cannot make your law at home. You cannot say, "The law given by the government or by the governor, I don't care for it. I shall make my own law." That is not possible. That will never be accepted as law. You can make your law. Similarly, if you manufacture dharma without any reference to the authority, that is not dharma. That is cheating religion. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ.

So therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, what He is speaking, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, that is dharma. All other things are cheating. And when Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He does not say it to any particular community or any country or any nation. He speaks to everyone.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

He says, "I am the seed-giving father of all forms of life." Kṛṣṇa does not say that "I am speaking to Indian or the Hindus." No. Kṛṣṇa is speaking to everyone, to His every son. It doesn't matter whether he is white or black or blue or… It doesn't matter. These are skin disease. Kṛṣṇa says that we don't take this body as yourself. Asmin dehe. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam… [Bg. 2.13]. This transformation of the body, that is natural. But within the body, the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa is there. That you have to understand, that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. We have to understand what is there within the body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. Unfortunately, the whole world is going on under the impression that "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am European…" That is condemned in the śāstra.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

Go, go means cow, and kharaḥ means ass. So yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. This bag of three dhātus-kapha, pitta, vāyu-if one takes it that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," so śāstra says, "He is not even human being." Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very, very important from this angle of vision, that everyone is thinking this body as he is. Nobody understands that he is within this body. Just like we are within this dress. I am not this dress. This is the primary education of spiritual life. Unfortunately, it is very much lacking. And now you can see practically that these European and American boys, they are all young men, but they have forgotten the bodily relationship. We have got in our institution Africans, Canadians, Australians, Europeans, Indians, but they do not consider with reference to this bodily concept of life. They live as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the instruction given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109].

So actually, if we want to be happy, then we have to accept the principle of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Bhakti comes out of love. You cannot make one forced to love you. It comes automatically. That automatic love is there in everyone's heart for Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta:

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Udaya means it is awakened. Everyone has got love for Kṛṣṇa within the heart. That is natural. But that love is distributed in different ways. How? Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhiḥ [SB 10.84.13]. This love has been distributed familywise, communitywise, nationwise, countrywise, like that. So this love has to be concentrated, converted to be love of Kṛṣṇa. That is required. Then everything is perfect. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching, and He practically… Kṛṣṇa-prema-prdaya. To develop love for somebody, that requires very elaborate process. It is not… Because we are in the darkness. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

So we cannot understand even Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. Actually, there are so many malinterpretation about Kṛṣṇa. I do not wish to discuss because they have been made mistaken by big, big leaders. So people cannot understand even Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, and what to speak of loving Kṛṣṇa. That is very difficult job. But Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He distributed this love of Kṛṣṇa. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Lord Nityānanda is standing before you, and He delivered many, many sinful persons to the transcendental position of love of Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung, vrajendra-nandana yei, śacī-suta hoilo sei, balarāma hoilo nitāi. This Balarāma, He became Nitai, and Kṛṣṇa, He became Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These two brothers, the same two brothers, Rāma-Laksman, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, again as Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu. So what was Their business? The pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is Their business. All the pāpīs and all the persons suffering from material anxieties, They delivered, "Yes." How? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. There were two brothers, Jagāi and Mādhāi. They are very debauchees. That debauchees means what was their fault? The fault was that they took their birth in brāhmaṇa family, but they became woman-hunter and drunkards and cheaters, like that. So Nityānand a Prabhu delivered them to become first-class Vaiṣṇava. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. So five hundred years ago, to become a drunkard was most abominable, especially in the higher section of the Hindu society. But now it has become a fashion. So if you want to develop the position of the society, position of the country, which is now full with pāpī-tāpī, you have to accept the process of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and that is practically being manifested. These European, American boys, they are also the same type, Jagāi and Mādhāi. That is a fact. They were at least. Now they are not. So how they have become delivered? The same process. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important, and there is practical result, that you introduce this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra offenselessly, not with offense, then the world situation will improve very much. That's a fact. And it is being actually enacted in the present position. We are sending our men from village to village in Europe and America. We have introduced. We are taking advantage of the modern facilities. We are using this microphone for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we are using nice buses, cars and wagons to go to village to village and distribute book and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. One of the leaders is present here, Śrīman Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Gosvāmī. He is going. He is controlling about one dozen buses. And here is Haṁsadūta also. He is doing the same in Germany. So we have introduced this as Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. Throughout the whole world, as many villages and towns are there, this saṅkīrtana movement should be introduced. And especially in India, because if in India the people are generally Kṛṣṇa conscious. By artificial means they are trying to forget. This is the position. This should be stopped. They have got natural tendency for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore in these days, still so many hundreds and thousands of people coming to Vṛndāvana to relish the transcendental mellow of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And now the foreigners are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And I am trying to place them in our temple. This temple is one of them. We have got four, five temples in India. We are constructing one big temple in Hyderabad, and we are getting good response. So it is our request to the leaders of the society and to the people of India that they may take this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, very seriously. It will be good for everyone and the whole world will become peaceful. We do not expect that throughout the whole world everyone will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But even five percent, two percent, three percent people takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there will be great example. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21].

So our only request is that this simple thing,

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

[Cc. Ādi 17.21]

this formula of the Vedic śāstra. And you will be surprised. I invite you to come to our different centers in Europe and America, how they are chanting, dancing before the Deity, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda or Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Recently I had been to Atlanta for the first time. But the boys and the girls there, they have taken three big, big houses. The middle house has been transformed into temple. How nicely they are chanting and dancing. You will be surprised if you go. So this movement is undoubtedly increasing in the foreign countries, and why not in our country? So the government, the leaders and the guardians, they should deeply contemplate on the serious nature of this movement and help us. Now we are bringing men from the foreign countries to preach. How long I shall bring? If we want to spread this movement all over India very seriously, then we invite educated, intellectual young men to come forward to study this movement. It is not blind; we have got books. We have already published about fifty books on this movement. So for the Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is meant for both kind of men. The ordinary men without any education, illiterate, he can also take to it, and the most advanced scientists, philosopher, philanthropist, politician, they also can take to it. So we are helping both ways. Those who are educated scientist, philosopher, for them we have got volumes of books. And those who are not educated, they can simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will help them, both ways. Therefore this movement has become important and interesting. Our books are being purchased by the topmost class of man. Big, big professors in the universities, they are giving standing order. The books which are not published, they are putting standing order. Here our one sannyāsī is present, Satsvarūpa. He is visiting the libraries, universities, professors, and we are getting very good response. So don't take it as a sectarian movement. Don't misunderstand this movement as a CIA movement. These are all foolishness. Do you think that the Americans are so fools that for propagating their CIA movement they will become Vaiṣṇava and chant and dance? The Americans have become so fools? No. They have taken it very seriously. They are not CIA, not American nor European. They are Vaiṣṇavas; they are servant of Kṛṣṇa. Don't misunderstand them. And try to cooperate and help this movement for the benefit of the whole human society.

Thank you very much. (end)

750427SP.VRN

Speech

Vṛndāvana, April 27, 1975

Prabhupāda: …cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. I could have spoken in Hindi, but with the permission of Śrīpāda Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, because most of my students here present, they could not understand the Hindi speaking, so it is my duty to inform them the substance of his speech in English so that you can appreciate how much he has eulogized our movement. You haven't got to be disappointed because some of the envious person, they are not accepting you as Vaiṣṇava. Śrīpāda Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, quoting from many authorized scriptures, he has proved that in the matter of engaging oneself in the devotional service, there is no check, there is no impediment. That is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ahaituky apratihatā. That he has very nicely explained, quoting many authoritative statement from scriptures. And another thing… It is a fact that nobody can check Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. It is transcendental; it is not material. Unless one acts on the platform of spiritual activities, one cannot understand why bhakti is apratihatā. Pratihatā means checked by impediments. So that is for material things. Just like a living being, a soul, he is checked by this material body. Otherwise a living being can go anywhere, sarva-gaḥ. The spirit soul is free to move anywhere, but because we are now covered by the material body, we are checked. But devotional service is on the transcendental platform; it cannot be checked. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is explained, ahaituky apratihatā yenātmā samprasīdati.

So I am very much pleased. I will not take much time. The ārātik time is now. You do not be disappointed by the activities of some envious person. Bhāgavata-dharma is meant for the nonenvious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. Nirmatsara. Anyone who is contaminated by envy, he cannot become Vaiṣṇava. He may be a envious animal, but Vaiṣṇava is paramahaṁsa, paramo nirmatsarāṇām. He is not envious. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Śrī Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, I have no problems." Naivodvije para duratyayā-vaitaraṇyāḥ tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ [SB 7.9.43]. "Personally, I have no problem. But I am sorry, very sorry because…" Tato vimukha-cetasa: "Those who are bereft of Your devotional service, for them I am sorry." So Vaiṣṇava is sorry for others' difficulties. Otherwise Vaiṣṇava has no difficulty. He is aprākṛta. So,

māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi-

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyā…

[Bg. 14.26]

He is on the Brahman platform. He is not on the material platform. Material platform means I am envious of you; you are envious of me. This is material platform. So as soon as one becomes envious of something, he is on the material platform. He is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava is on the spiritual platform. He is udāra, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, as Prahlāda Mahārāja… Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. The materialistic persons are described as vimūḍhān, fools, rascals. They do not know. And the Vaiṣṇava platform is not vimūḍhān. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. That is described.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama…

[Bg. 5.18]

That is paṇḍita. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54].

So these are… There is authoritative statements in all the śāstras, but if we do not care for śāstra and sādhu and devotees, we manufacture our own way of life, that is different things. We have nothing to speak about that. On the whole, I am very much thankful to Śrīpāda Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī that he has come, taking so much trouble. He is old man. And he has advised you that you stick to bhakti principle, and that will make your life successful. You have come so far, distant place, in Vṛndāvana, from America, Australia, Africa, spending so much money. So… Of course, there is no consideration of material profit and loss. But your anxiety, laulyam, that will make you successful in receiving the mercy, unalloyed mercy of Kṛṣṇa. So you have nothing to be disappointed. You go on with your prescribed duties, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, and observe the rules and regulations as they have been given to you. Chant your numerical strength of beads and your life will be successful.

Thank you very much. (end)

750525LE.HON

Lecture

Honolulu, May 25, 1975

Prabhupāda: So this Prahlāda-caritra play, drama, is very instructive. Although it is not played on a very nice stage, theatrical, but the feeling expressed by the devotees in playing this Prahlāda-caritra has become very successful. We want to understand the feeling. Externally, we may not be very much equipped. Kṛṣṇa takes the feeling. Bhāva-grāhī janardana.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja is one of the great personality in devotional line. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. It is very difficult to understand what is the purpose of religious principle. People actually do not know what is religion; therefore we have got so many religious system, man-made, or concocted ideas. Actually, religion means the law given by God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like the law given by the state, by the government, you have to accept it. There is no question that the government is Christian government or Muhammadan government or Hindu government. It doesn't matter. The law given by the government, you must accept. You cannot deny it. So actually God is neither Hindu God nor Muhammadan God nor Christian God. God is God. His power is omnipotent. It is equally applicable to Hindu, to Muslim, to Christian-anyone-to animal, to human being. Just like God has given this law, "You must die." This is applicable to everyone-Hindu, Muslim, Christian, man, animal, trees, birds, beasts, everyone. It cannot be disobeyed. That is law. That is God's law. You may be very much advanced in knowledge or so-called science, but because God says that in the material life you must die, you cannot avoid this law. That is called dharma. Dharma means the characteristic, that God has given this law that everyone should die; therefore all living beings' characteristic is that he must die. This is called religion. Similarly, God says that "You are My eternal servant. You must obey Me." That is religion. You try to understand the meaning of religion. Religion means the law given by God, and you must accept it. That is religion.

So people do not know. They manufacture religion. So how you can manufacture religion? Law can be given by the king, by the state, by the government. If you manufacture some law at your home, consulting your wife or father and mother, who will accept it? Nobody will accept. You may be puffed up that you have manufactured a law, but nobody will care for it. The law given by the state will have to be accepted, either you like it or don't like it. The law will not depend on your liking and disliking. You must accept. If you don't accept, then you are a law breaker; you will be punished. Similarly, the religion means, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad…, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion, that "You have manufactured so many types of religion. You give it up. Kick it out. This is religion: you surrender unto Me." So if you become a surrendered soul to God-that means you become a devotee-then you are religionist. Otherwise you are criminal. Therefore śāstra says that you should follow the great devotees. That is religion. You cannot manufacture religion, you cannot concoct religion. You just try to follow the great personalities, and that is religion.

So there… In the śāstra there are great personalities. They have been mentioned. Just like Lord Brahmā, Nārada Muni, Lord Śiva, then Kumāras, then Kapila, Manu, and Prahlāda. Prahlādo janako bhīṣmo. Prahlāda Mahārāja is one of the great personalities who knows what is religion. So he practiced it. Unfortunately, he was born of a atheist father, Hiraṇyakaśipu. But by the grace of Nārada Muni he knew what is religion. You have seen in the play that when his mother was pregnant, the demigods were taking her to the prison just to keep her observation, that the child which is born of a atheist father, Hiraṇyakaśipu, may not be missed. They wanted to kill him also. But although he was born of an atheist father, demoniac father, he became a great devotee by the instruction of Nārada Muni. Nārada Muni took his poor mother. He asked the demigods, "Why you are harassing this lady? After all, she is woman. She is dependent." So by the order of Nārada Muni they let her go, and her husband was engaged in tapasya, so she had no protection. Therefore Nārada Muni took her at his āśrama and instructed her about God consciousness. That is the duty of saintly person. So Prahlāda Mahārāja, while he was within the womb of his mother, he heard all those instructions. His mother in due course of time-that is the nature of woman-she forgot the instruction. But Prahlāda Mahārāja remembered; therefore he became a great devotee. This is the history of Prahlāda Mahārāja.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja became a devotee, not a so-called devotee, that "If my senses are gratified, then I shall continue to remain a devotee. Otherwise I shall slip away, go away. That's all." So he was not such kind of devotee. He remained devotee in all circumstances. You see his father wanted to chastise him is so many ways. But what was Prahlāda's fault? He was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and the father did not like it. So he wanted to induce him to stop this Hare Kṛṣṇa, but he never stopped. In all circumstances he remained steady in…, when he was thrown into the boiling water… It is said oil. He was put into the oil. So he remained steady. So many demonic persons threatened him; he remained steady. His mother was instructed by the father to give poison in the food. So he remained steady. Then the father understood that "My son has got some mystic power." The mystic power was that he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. A devotee never practices any mystic power. But a devotee, being protected by the supreme mystic, Kṛṣṇa, a devotee is never in danger in all circumstances. That is the instruction in this… So just to try… Try to remain a devotee always, and Kṛṣṇa will give you protection in all circumstance. There is no fear. Devotees, they remain devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa does everything. If something mystic or magic has to be shown, the devotee does not take any credit for that magic, because the magic is done by Kṛṣṇa for the sake of devotee. So he doesn't require to learn the art of magic to cheat the people. That is not. When magic is required, Kṛṣṇa plays. Kṛṣṇa is called Yogeśvara. Yoga is mystic power, and He is the Yogeśvara, master of yoga, mystic power. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ. Just like Kṛṣṇa was on the chariot of the Kurukṣetra battle, Arjuna. Arjuna was facing enemies, big, big enemies like Bhīṣma, Karṇa, Dronācārya, and many other who were very very powerful. Arjuna was nothing before them. They are compared with timiṅgila, timiṅgila, a big fish which swallows up the whale fishes. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that "Although they were timiṅgila-like, they could kill thousands of Arjuna, but still, because You were protecting him, sitting on his chariot, they were killed; Arjuna was not killed."

So the devotee, he doesn't require to acquire any mystic power. What mystic power Prahlāda could attain? He was only five years old. So there was no opportunity of acquiring any mystic power. But he was being protected by the supreme mystic, Kṛṣṇa. That should be a devotee's point of view. Don't waste your time for acquiring so-called mystic power. Just devote yourself to remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and you become the supreme mystic. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

There are many yogis, mystics, but Kṛṣṇa confirms that "Of all the yogis, of all the mystics, a person who is always thinking of Me," śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā, "always thinking Me, Kṛṣṇa, within himself: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare…," so Kṛṣṇa said, "he is the best yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. Sarveṣam means "of all." "Of all kinds of yogis, the best yogi is who is always thinking of Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's philosophy, He is teaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. If you sincerely do these four things-always think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā; just become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto; mad-yājī, worship Kṛṣṇa… Just like we do in the temple room. Man-manā… You can do worship anywhere if you are a devotee. A devotee can worship Kṛṣṇa anywhere, underneath a tree. Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So if underneath a tree you think of Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is sufficient. Kṛṣṇa does not require any big paraphernalia. He only wants how you are a sincere devotee. That's all. And that devotional service can be discharged in any condition. Ahaituky apratihatā. It cannot be checked by the material circumstances. This is the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you see the five-years-old boy, how he was protected from all kinds of dangers and he refused to take any benediction. He refused. The devotee should not be a mercantile man: "If you give me something, then I shall give you something." That is business. A devotee is not like that. He understands that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, his duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material world a servant works when money is paid, wages. A devotee is not like that. A devotee serves Kṛṣṇa out of duty. That is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "It is my duty." And then Kṛṣṇa takes the responsibility, "It is My duty to protect this devotee." This reciprocation is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no question of business transaction. Then he will be protected. Kṛṣṇa is nobody's servant, but everyone is Kṛṣṇa's servant. If everyone becomes Kṛṣṇa's servant, then everyone is protected by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is protecting. Kṛṣṇa is God, so He is protecting everyone, He is giving food everyone, but especially inclined to the devotees. Samaḥ sarveṣu-bhūteṣu.

There is a verse, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu na me dveśyo 'sti na priyaḥ [Bg. 9.29]. Kṛṣṇa says God must be equal to everyone. God is one, so He is giving everyone food. The birds, beasts, they are getting food. The elephant he is also getting food. So who is supplying him food? Kṛṣṇa, God is supplying. So in that way He is equal to everyone in ordinary dealing. But especially deals with the devotees. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. When he was put into danger, then Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva came personally to give him protection. That is the special duty of God. That is not unnatural. If somebody says, "God is partial, that He takes special care of His devotee," no, that is not partiality. Just like a gentleman-in the neighborhood, he loves all children, but when his own child is in danger, he takes special care. That is not unnatural. You cannot blame him that "Why you are taking special care of your own child?" No. That is natural. Nobody will blame him. Similarly, everyone is God's sons, but His devotee is special. That is God's special attention. Ye tu bhajanti māṁ prītyā teṣu te mayi. So God is giving protection to every living entity, but if you become devotee of the Lord, pure devotee, without any motive, then God will take special care of you. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that we are being harassed by māyā, the material energy, and if we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa then we will be specially protected. Mām eva prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

So try to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this philosophy. We have got so many books. Whoever comes here must read the books, devotee, the inmates of the temple, outsider, then you will understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Or you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa only. Don't talk rubbish things, waste time. That is not good. A single moment is so valuable that you cannot purchase it by millions of dollars. Now today is 25th May, four o'clock gone. You cannot bring it back. Four o'clock, 25th May, 1975, if you want to get it back again by paying millions of dollars, it will not be possible. Therefore we should be very careful of our time. Time once wasted, you cannot get it back return. Better utilize this time. The best utilization is to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or think of Kṛṣṇa, worship Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (end)

751007LE.DUR

City Hall Lecture

Durban, October 7, 1975

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this great movement. This movement is not started by me. This was started long, long years ago by Kṛṣṇa Himself. Firstly, He spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

[Bg. 4.2]

So if we calculate the age of Manu, it comes to the point of forty millions of years. So Kṛṣṇa said that forty millions of years ago, at least, He spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god, Vivasvān. The name of the predominating deity in the sun planet is Vivasvān. His son, Manu, Vaivasvata Manu… His son, Ikṣvāku, the original person in the dynasty Sūrya-vaṁśa, in which Lord Rāmacandra appeared, Ikṣvāku… So in this way this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is coming since a very, very long time. But Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]: "Formerly the rājarṣis, they used to receive this instruction through the chain of disciplic succession." That was the way of understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But Kṛṣṇa said, sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭo parantapa. Now Kṛṣṇa, five thousand years ago, when Kṛṣṇa was talking with Arjuna in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, he was perplexed whether to fight or not to fight, and just to enthuse him in the fighting, He spoke this Bhagavad-gītā five thousand years ago to Arjuna. And He said there that "The paramparā system, disciplic succession, is now broken; therefore I am speaking to you again so that people may learn from you what is the purport of this philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

So five thousand years ago this philosophy was spoken to Arjuna, and we are having the instruction. Unfortunately that is again being distorted. Because we do not receive through the paramparā system, we inference, we make inferences in our own way, and therefore it is also again broken. Therefore again, five hundred years ago, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu instructed this Bhagavad-gītā as a devotee. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is supposed to be incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He instructed as the order-giving master, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], but still, people misunderstood. Therefore this time, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa Himself, appeared as a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa. That is described in the authentic śāstra:

kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ

sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam

yajñair saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ

[SB 11.5.32]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practically Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself. So Kṛṣṇa is very kind upon the conditioned soul. He is trying to elevate them to the real platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness again and again. But we are so stubborn, we are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa again and again. This is going on. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is… Especially He is instructing to the Indian people. He is saying to the Indian people, bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared in Bengal, you know, in the district of Navadvīpa, about sixty-four miles from Calcutta, northern side. So His life and precepts are there. We have translated many books. You'll find Teachings of Lord Caitanya and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, almost seventeen volumes, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. And we have summarized the teaching in one volume. So you can learn about the teachings of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But the summary of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is like this. He says to every Indian, not only Bengalis… It is not that because He appeared in Bengal, therefore He advised to the Bengalis. He is especially speaking to the Indians.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Para-upakāra. He says that "Anyone who has taken birth in India, Bhāratabhūmi…" Bhāratabhūmi is puṇya-bhūmi, the pious land. Within this universe… In the śāstra we find that even the demigods in the heavenly planets, they desire to take birth in India. India is so glorious. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that anyone who has taken birth as a human being in India, his business is to first of all make his life perfect by taking advantage of the Vedic knowledge, because it is available in India. So every Indian, especially the higher circles, namely the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, and the vaiśyas, especially the brāhmaṇa, it is their business to make the life perfect by studying the Vedic knowledge and distribute the knowledge all over the world. Para-upakāra. Because, so far spiritual knowledge is concerned, outside India they have got very meager knowledge; therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu requested that every Indian, especially the higher class, study the Vedic knowledge and distribute it throughout the whole world.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Para-upakāra. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best welfare activities in the world because people are in ignorance. They are… Everyone, practically 99.9%, at the present moment, they are under the conception, bodily conception: "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," like that. That is ignorance. That will be discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā very elaborately. So the question may be raised that "How I can do welfare activities for the welfare of the whole world?" The Caitanya Mahāprabhu encourages. He says that āmāra ājñāya hañā tāra ei deśa: "Wherever you are staying," ei deśa, "in that country… You may not go outside, but wherever you are staying," āmāra ājñāya, "by My order," guru hañā, "you must become a guru"-by the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "Then? I have no education. How can I become a guru? How can I instruct?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Yes, that I know. But you take My order." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Then what shall I do?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa: "You become guru. You haven't got to manufacture anything, any philosophy. You simply instruct whatever is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You become a guru." So our request is that you are so many Indians living in this foreign country for generations. So take this instruction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because you are coming from India, therefore it is special request to you that "By the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, every one of you become a guru." And what shall you have to do? Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Ei deśa. This South Africa, you are staying here. So you preach as a guru. And what shall you preach? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You haven't got to do anything. The instruction of Kṛṣṇa is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Don't distort it, but put it as it is. That's your duty. If you do simply this thing… Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead… Kṛṣṇa says Himself that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7].

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

This thing we have to understand, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He is accepted. Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa about Himself, and he says… He agreed, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. So He is accepted by the direct disciple, Arjuna; He is accepted by Vyāsadeva; He is accepted by Nārada Muni; and recently, within two thousand years, He is accepted by all the ācāryas of India-Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī; and lately, five hundred years ago, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So there is no doubt about Kṛṣṇa's becoming the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is confirmed, ete cāṁśa kalāḥ puṁsāṁ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: [SB 1.3.28] "The original Personality of Godhead-Kṛṣṇa." Similarly, in the Upaniṣad, in the Vedas, and Brahma-saṁhitā, if you take evidence from the śāstras, everywhere you will find, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. In the Brahma-saṁhitā, which is supposed to be written by Lord Brahmā, he says in the beginning,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So from sastric evidences, from authentic evidences, from the ācāryas, from Bhagavad-gītā itself-everywhere you will find the confirmation, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. It is not difficult. You simply take up the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and try to preach, yāre dekha tāre. Whomever you meet. You may remain as a businessman, you may remain whatever you are, you remain a family head, but instruct this advice of Kṛṣṇa-yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. This is our mission.

So Kṛṣṇa, when… The instruction of Kṛṣṇa begins when Arjuna was very much perplexed, very much perplexed whether to fight. Because the other side was his brother, his nephews, his son-in-law, his grandfather, his teacher. So when he saw in the battlefield all relatives, friends, and kinsmen, so he was perplexed. So Arjuna was very much compassionate that he practically said, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." Then Arjuna also knew that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So my perplexity can be eradicated only by Kṛṣṇa." Therefore he submitted to Kṛṣṇa, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "I am in great perplexity." Everyone is in great perplexity. There is no doubt. Anyone in this material world is full of anxiety and perplexity. So it is not only Arjuna's, I mean to say, problem. It is the problem of everyone. So if we want to solve the problems of life, we should accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme teacher. This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and Arjuna. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: "My dear Kṛṣṇa, now I am asking You to become my teacher." (aside:) Don't disturb. "I am asking You to become my teacher and solve my problem."

So Kṛṣṇa, first of all He says that… Sañjaya uvāca. Sañjaya was explaining Bhagavad-gītā before Dhṛtarāṣṭra.

evam uktvā hṛṣīkeśaṁ

guḍākeśaḥ parantapaḥ

na yotsya iti govindam

uktvā tūṣṇīṁ babhūva ha

[Bg. 2.9]

So Sañjaya said that evam uktvā, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight," evam uktvā hṛṣīkeśam, "unto Kṛṣṇa…" Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīkeśa means… Hṛṣīka means the senses, and īśa means the master. So we have got our senses. Everyone has got senses. The master is Kṛṣṇa. We are not the master. That we have to understand. I am speaking that "This is my hand," but if the power of the hand is withdrawn by Kṛṣṇa, we cannot act. We should understand this way, that none of our senses belong to us. It is given to us for proper use. Therefore, because it is given to us by the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa, the master of the senses, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakti-yoga. We should know that "Although we have got all these senses, it has been given to us for use, but the senses do not belong to me." Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Bhakti means when we, you use your senses, hrsikena… Hrsikena means "by the senses"; hṛṣīkeśam, "the master of the senses." Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate: "This is called bhakti." At the present moment, under the condition of material nature, we are using our senses for our sense gratification. That is called conditional stage. And we are becoming subjected to so many changes of circumstances in different bodies. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We are creating a different situation by utilizing senses for our personal sense gratification, and we have become bound up, bound by the laws of nature. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yajñārthe karma anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Karma-bandhana. Yajña. Yajña means Viṣṇu, yajña-puruṣa. If you work for Kṛṣṇa, then you are doing right; otherwise you have become implicated. Yajñarthe karma anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. This is the teaching of Bhagavad-gītā.

Now, just like Arjuna. What is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Arjuna is a fighter. Why? He's a soldier. He knew how to fight. That's all. He's not a Vedantist; he is not a brāhmaṇa; he is not a sannyāsī. He is gṛhastha, householder. He appeared on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra for fighting on political reasons. So he knew all this business. But he utilized his talent in fighting art for Kṛṣṇa. He did not want to fight. As a Vaiṣṇava, he is very kind. He said that "My brothers, my cousins, certainly they have insulted my wife. They have taken my kingdom by gambling and so many devices. I know that. Still, because they are my brothers, I don't wish to kill them." This is Vaiṣṇava's attitude. But Kṛṣṇa, His business is yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When there is injustice, it must be faced with fighting. That is Kṛṣṇa's version. So Arjuna, as a Vaiṣṇava, did not like to fight. But Kṛṣṇa, as the supreme mediator… That is also good for everything. Whatever Kṛṣṇa does, that is…, "God is good." There is nothing bad. So anyway, Arjuna, when he heard Bhagavad-gītā very minutely, he was asked by Kṛṣṇa, "Now I have explained to you the Bhagavad-gītā, the knowledge, the spiritual knowledge. Now whatever you like, you can do." Yathecchasi tathā kuru: [Bg. 18.63] "Whatever you like… Now it is up to you. If you don't fight, that you can decide. I have no objection because you have little independence. But My advice is that you should fight. Now I ask you what you are going to do." So Arjuna replied that, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān madhusudana, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. "Now I shall do it." This is Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti, that we have to act according to the advice of the Supreme Lord. That is bhakti. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170].

So therefore we have to first of all establish our relationship with God. Your establish…, is already

established. Just like the father and the son-the relationship is already there. It is not… But still, sometimes the son goes out of home and may be forgetting his father. Similarly, we are out of home. We have come from the spiritual world in this material world. We have forgotten our father. So we have to revive this relationship with our father, or God, or Kṛṣṇa. That is the main business of human life. In other species of life lower than the human being it is not possible to revive our old relationship with God. But in this life… Therefore this is the greatest opportunity. After all, we are under the grip of material nature's law. That is explained in there. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. According to our desire, we are creating a different type of body, and after death, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Just like the child is become a boy, the boy is becoming young man, the young man is becoming middle-aged man, and the middle-aged man is becoming old man. So what is next after the old body? The next is tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: you have to accept another body. This is called chain or cycle of birth and death, or transmigration of the soul. This is going on. So if you want to… But nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to change this body. But this is a problem. One should know it. That is the first instruction given by Kṛṣṇa… [break] …Arjuna, that we are changing. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So this is the opportunity, human life. If we want to stop this repetition of birth and death under different obligation and different circumstances, we should take instruction from Kṛṣṇa, try to understand Kṛṣṇa-that is Bhagavad-gītā-and make our life successful so that… Understanding Kṛṣṇa means, as it is stated, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. We have come from God; we again go back to God if we simply understand Kṛṣṇa, or God. This is the whole instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. And when Arjuna was perplexed that "How shall I kill the other side?" then Kṛṣṇa informed him in the beginning,

evam uktvā hṛṣīkeśaṁ

guḍākeśaḥ parantapaḥ

na yotsya iti govindam

uktvā tūṣṇīṁ babhūva ha

[Bg. 2.9]

"He completely became silent. 'Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight.' " Therefore,

tam uvāca hṛṣīkeśaḥ

prahasann iva bhārata

senayor ubhayor madhye

viṣīdantam idaṁ vacaḥ

[Bg. 2.10]

Then Kṛṣṇa was smiling, that "Arjuna is my friend, and he is so much overwhelmed with material consciousness of life." Therefore it is said, tam uvāca hṛṣīkeśaḥ prahasann: He was smiling, that "You are My friend. You should not have done like this." Prahasann iva bhārata senayor ubhayor madhye: "Between the two parties of soldiers," viṣīdantam, "he was lamenting."

So because Kṛṣṇa was accepted as the teacher, as the master, so He is chastising Arjuna.

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

[Bg. 2.11]

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

"My dear Arjuna, you talk very much just like a learned man." Prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase. Prajñā-vādāṁs means talking just like a learned man. "Unfortunately, you are not a learned man because you are lamenting on this body." He said, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "Anyone who is learned, he does not lament over this body whether in living position or dead position. So you are talking like a learned man, but you are not a learned man." This is the first instruction. Because Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa, He chastised him with little hard words, that "You are not a paṇḍita." Now, you just consider what is the position of this world. Everyone is taking care of this body. But Kṛṣṇa said, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. The paṇḍitāḥ, one who is learned, he knows that he is not this body. He is soul. So our first business is to take care of the soul. And this is the opportunity, this human form of body. In the human form of body we can understand Bhagavad-gītā, not in the dog's body. That is not possible. So by evolution, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, from aquatics to trees, plants, then insects, then birds, then beast, then human being, then civilized human being… In this civilized form of human being, if we do not take this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā personally given by the Lord Himself, then we are missing the point. This is the whole Vedic literature's lesson, that human form of life is meant for self-realization: "I am not this body. I am soul. I am spirit soul. My business is different from simply taking care of the body." This is human civilization. So therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important movement. We request everyone to study this movement very seriously and make one's life successful. And what is that success? Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa… And Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, everyone should know that Kṛṣṇa means God. So if we try to understand simply Kṛṣṇa, or God, in this life, then we become liberated. We become free from this material bondage. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is the assurance given in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa… Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Now, in truth you should understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. And there is no difficulty. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So our only request is that you, all of you, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Don't interpret in a different way. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become free from this material bondage, no more accepting… Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body, that is certain. The cats and dogs will also give up their body, we'll have also give… But before giving up this body, if we simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then our life becomes successful. What is that success? That after giving up this body we are not going to accept anything, our material body. Then we stand in our original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is there within the body. That will be explained very nicely. So we… Our mission is to come to the platform of our spiritual body. It is very simple, simply by understanding the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has made it still simplified. What is that? He advises, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra."

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā

[Cc. Ādi 17.21]

In this age, as we are fallen, so the method is also given very simplified. It is confirmed in the śāstras, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, that kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asmin hy eko mahān guṇaḥ, that this time, this Kali, this age… This is called Kali age, misunderstanding and fighting. So in this age there are so many faults in the human society. It is just like ocean. Kaler doṣa-nidhe. Nidhi means the ocean. Doṣa-nidhi, fault, ocean of fault. Doṣa-nidhe rājann. "There is one great opportunity." What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet: [SB 12.3.51] "If one takes to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra," kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya, "then mukta-saṅga, he becomes liberated," and paraṁ vrajet, "he becomes eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead." So these things are there. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is only to give you information, just like a peon delivers the letter from a friend. He has nothing to do. So we are trying to deliver the message of Kṛṣṇa to you. You kindly accept it and utilize it.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]

Indian man (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma. In the name of God. I feel it is my duty to… [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is, "Why should one pray to God?"

Prabhupāda: Our prayer is, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taught,

ayi nanda-tanuja kiṅkaraṁ

patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau

kṛpayā tava pāda-paṅkaja

sthita-dhūlī-sadṛśaṁ vicintaya

[Cc. Antya 20.32, Śikṣāṣṭaka 5]

Just like if you are in danger, you ask your friends to help you. This is prayer. So our prayer is, to Kṛṣṇa, ayi nanda-tanuja. Nanda-tanuja means… Kṛṣṇa appeared as the foster son of Nanda Mahārāja; therefore He is addressed as nanda-tanuja, means "the son of Mahārāja Nanda." So patitaṁ kiṅkaraṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau. "I am your eternal servant. Somehow or other, I am now fallen in this ocean of nescience, ignorance." Just like if you are a person of the land, if you are thrown in the ocean, it is struggle for existence. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. This is struggle for exis… Everyone is struggling. But what you will struggle in the ocean? You may be a very big swimmer, but how long you shall swim? You will be tired. The only means is to take you out of the ocean. Even one inch above the ocean is your safety. It doesn't matter how many inches you are taken from the ocean. Similarly, the prayer is, "My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I am your eternal servant. Somehow or other, I am now fallen in this ocean. Please pick me up and fix me again as the dust of Your lotus feet." This is the prayer. So we should know in what dangerous position we are. Then there is necessity of prayer. And prayer to whom? To the Supreme Person to save us. Therefore there are so many prayers in the śāstra. Prayers means addressing the Lord to save us from this. The real saving is to pick us up from this ocean of nescience, ignorance. Then everything is all right. As soon as we come to the knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God," then our knowledge is perfect. This is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. This is called Brahman realization.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

So prayer is needed because we are in danger. And actually we pray when we are in great danger. Suppose if immediately there is some earthquake or there is some danger, naturally, spontaneously, we pray. We pray. But we forget it. But the prayer, the tendency of offering prayer to the Lord at the time of danger, is automatic. So we should know that we are in danger. We are in this material condition of life means we are in danger. Therefore we should pray. We must pray to pick him up, to pick us up. That is necessity of prayer.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are there any questions?

Indian man (2): Swamijī, I would like to know from you whether or not it is necessary for a person to be a vegetarian or to have a special diet to be able to respond to the…, your teachings…

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He would like to know whether it is necessary for one to be a vegetarian or not in order to respond or understand the teachings.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious-that is the whole teaching-you have to act according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So vegetarian or not vegetarian, it is not a very important thing. Either you eat meat or vegetable, both of them have got life. That is the nature's way. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One life has to eat another life. That is nature's law. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness means he does not anymore eat anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We take prasādam. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, we take that. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. So just like if you ask some guest at your home, you will ask him, "What you shall eat, sir? What can I offer you?" Similarly, when you invite Kṛṣṇa to your home or to your temple, you should prepare foodstuff according to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, not according to your whims. So Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "Anyone who offers Me patraṁ"-that is vegetable-"puṣpaṁ"-vegetable-"and liquid things like milk, water…" And you can prepare so many other things from vegetables. If you offer to Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam, then you are free. That is, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. If you accept foodstuff which is offered for yajña-yajña means acceptance by Kṛṣṇa-then you are free from sinful life. Otherwise you are responsible. Either you eat meat or vegetable, it doesn't matter.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are there any more questions?

Prabhupāda: No. One man once.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There are many other people who would like to ask questions.

Prabhupāda: Others should be given opportunity.

Indian man (3): I would like to have this question. Why should one accept this Kṛṣṇa as God?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. We have to accept the Vedic evidence. So the Vedic evidence establishes kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Otherwise you have no opportunity to understand what is God. Then, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then present somebody else who is God and whether he is satisfying the definition of God. So considering the Vedic evidences, authorities, we have to accept Kṛṣṇa as God. And when He was present on this planet, He proved that He is God. Then we have no other alternative than to accept Kṛṣṇa as God.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Any other questions? Yes.

Indian man (4): With the present state of the world as it is-it seems to be in a pretty mess-what would you say we are actually advancing spiritually?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "With the present state of the world, in the present mess that it's in today, would you say that we are advancing spiritually?"

Prabhupāda: No. Practically, the present state of the world means without any spiritual knowledge. We are blind; therefore it is very dangerous position. The spiritual knowledge we must have; otherwise we are doomed.

Indian man (5): Master, I wish to inquire. From the ancient Vedic scripture of the Vedas, we learn that God is and He cannot be seen. However, in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that Lord Kṛṣṇa is born as a human. Now, does this not work conflict to the ancient scriptures of the Vedic religion?

Prabhupāda: Therefore, in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that you have to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. If we simply see that Kṛṣṇa is born or He has taken His birth as a human being, that is not sufficient study of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says His birth and activities are transcendental. Janma karma me divyam. So that you have to study, divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Anyone who understands what is Kṛṣṇa's birth… His birth and my birth is not the same. That means you have to study the subject matter very scientifically. Then you will understand that although Kṛṣṇa comes as a human being, still, He maintains His position as God. That is real understanding. Unless you understand this fact, you will misunderstand Him. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa in truth, then you become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Simply superficial study will not help you. Then you have to study to become a serious student of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and study Him. Then you will understand. Otherwise, superficially, we cannot understand.

Woman: Swamijī, would you say that the soul is locked in the third eye?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The soul is what?

Harikeśa: Locked in the third eye.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Locked in the third eye. She's asking if the soul is locked in the third eye.

Prabhupāda: Locked? What does it mean locked? Soul is not locked. Soul, for temporarily, is embodied according to the soul's desire. There are 8,400,000 forms of body, and as we are desiring, the material nature is supplying the body. It is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

Yantrārūḍhāni. Yantra means machine. So Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart. That is all-pervading. And He knows what the soul wants, so He is given the opportunity. As he wants to work, he is given a particular type of body, machine, yantra. Yantra means machine. And he is seated there, and in this way he is wandering in different species of life and different planets for different times. That is going on. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. So if we stop this business, if we hear Kṛṣṇa-sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]-then our life is successful. Otherwise we shall continue to change this yantra, one yantra to another, another, another. This is going on. So practically the soul is not locked up, but intentionally he wants some position. And Kṛṣṇa is very kind. God is very kind. He is giving the opportunity: "All right, you want like this? Do it like that."

Indian man (5): Swamijī? Are we (indistinct) to believe in that by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa that we can attain a higher conscious level on this earth and attain self-realization without going through all the rigors of the old Vedas, scriptures?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is, "Are you saying that simply by chanting the holy names, Hare Kṛṣṇa, that you can do without all of the other instructions which are in the older Vedas?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the special concession for the conditioned soul of this age, that if you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then your heart will be purified. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Then everything will be revealed. This is special concession. So you can see it. All these students coming, joining this movement all over the world, they are beginning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and gradually they are becoming purified and taking this consciousness very seriously. You can see it.

Indian man (1): Oṁ. Oṁ. [break]

Indian man (6): …explain the ways of pāpa-nirvāṇam.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Pāpa-nirvāṇam.

Prabhupāda: Pāpa. Yes. Pāpa. I understand. Pāpa… First of all, we have to know what is pāpa. Just like in ordinary way, in ignorance we commit something unlawful. Just like in this country it is said, "Keep to the left," and some other country it is said that "Keep to the right." Say, Americans, they "Keep to the right." Now, in this country, if instead of keeping to the left, if he keeps to the right, then he becomes punishable. So this is due to ignorance. So pāpa means in ignorance. So if you become in knowledge, there is no more pāpa. So if you understand what is God, what you are, what is your relationship with God, and if you act accordingly, there is no pāpa. This is pāpa-nirvāṇa, no more pāpa. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

[SB 1.2.17]

If you simply hear Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā, then gradually you become free from all sinful reaction of life. That is pāpa-nirvāṇa. This is very simple thing. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to take any more questions, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: One more.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One more question.

Indian man (7): Swamijī, I got a disturbing mind. I would like to clear my mind. We understand that according to the Lord's creation, apart from this planet, there are many other planets which is called the universe. And as such, being created by the Lord, I'm sure He has given His right in a way of knowledge to understand Him. Now, if Kṛṣṇa conscious, as we understand in this part of the world, then I am sure it should be in the other part of the world as well. So I don't know, Swamijī, what is the position, knowing that we are living in this part of the world, or this planet, what could be the other part of the planet which is called the universes. I was just reading today the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. I don't expect that I will be able to bring about this bit of the Gītā that I read in a question form, because Lord… In the Gītā itself it says that Arjuna presaged(?) to Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter, verse thirteen and fourteen, where He mentions that He is supreme, He is the ultimate, He is abode, place of residence of His, He is purified, eternal, primal God and so on, transcendental, original, and unborn. Now, Swamijī, I would like to know, being unborn, then how come that Lord Kṛṣṇa was born as a human being or brought Himself to that position to form Himself as the Supreme Being? I would like this answer to be given. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: If you have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you can see that Kṛṣṇa was not born. Kṛṣṇa appeared before Devakī and Vasudeva as four-handed Nārāyaṇa. Then the father, mother requested Nārāyaṇa that "You have appeared as Nārāyaṇa. Immediately Kaṁsa will kill You. Please, You become like human child." So He again immediately became a human child. So the conception of birth from the womb of the mother was not actually the fact about Kṛṣṇa. You read Bhāgavatam. You will find this description. So even though if He comes as a child, still He is unborn because Kṛṣṇa, or God, is in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So from the heart, if He comes before you, so is it very difficult task for Him? It is not at all difficult. [break] What to speak of Kṛṣṇa, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we do not take birth. You will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. When the description of soul is given there, it is said that the soul is never born. If the soul is never born, how the Supersoul is born? That you have to understand. Even the soul… We are ordinary soul. We are not…, also not born. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "At any time." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So we have to study this. We have to learn this. Superficially understanding will not help us. You have to become a serious student. That is wanted. And so far Kṛṣṇa is speaking, He is speaking for all living entities. It is not that He is speaking for India or for the Hindus or for this planet or that planet. He is speaking for everyone. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ [Bg. 14.4]. Kṛṣṇa says, "In all forms of life, all the living entities, I am…" Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "I am the supreme father." So Kṛṣṇa does not speak for any particular section or any particular country or any particular religion. It is for everyone. And so far we are concerned, that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

[Bg. 9.25]

Now, in this human form of life you can select where you will go next. If you want to go to the higher planetary system, so you can go there. Yānti deva-vratā devān. The higher planetary… Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. You qualify yourself. So if you qualify yourself to go to the higher planetary system, you can go. Yānti deva-vratā devān. And if you qualify yourself to go back to home, back to Godhead, that also you can do. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So if you become a pure devotee, then you go to Kṛṣṇa. That is up to you to make your selection. And this human form of body is meant for that purpose. If you don't utilize it for our next elevation, then you are committing suicide. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to inform you. That's all. Thank you very much. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

751206LE.VRN

Lecture Excerpt

Vṛndāvana, December 6, 1975

Prabhupāda: Etāṁ sa āsthāya? Next?

Akṣayānanda: Parātma-niṣṭhām?

Prabhupāda: Parātma-niṣṭhām. This sannyāsa life means simply devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no other business. We have got, according to our varṇāśrama system, varṇa and āśrama: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and āśrama, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. As we were discussing, viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpaṇam. The whole system is how to approach the lotus feet of Viṣṇu. So this is the last ceremonial performance. Etāṁ sa āsthāya parātma-niṣṭhām. Parātma-niṣṭhām, Viṣṇu, to keep firm faith in Him. So it is not a new thing. Pūrvatamair upāsitāṁ mahadbhiḥ. Before us there were so many exalted ācāryas-Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, and, in our line, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So our process is to follow the predecessor ācārya. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. That is the way. So although you are young men-there are many difficulties to keep sannyāsa-but if you keep faith, full faith in Kṛṣṇa, the māyā will not be able to touch you. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is very strong, but if we-mām eva ye prapadyante-if we keep ourself fully surrendered unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, māyā will not be able to counteract this process.

So you should always keep yourself fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not very difficult. Strictly follow the rules and regulation and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra as many times… For a sannyāsī, you should increase. Then you will be fixed up. And go on preaching. Preaching is also not very difficult, because you haven't got to manufacture anything. Everything is there, and it is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa very early age, twenty-four years old only. So He has practically shown by His activities how to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. And He gives order to everyone, āmāra ajñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "In whichever country you may live-it doesn't matter-try to deliver them by becoming their guru." The sannyāsa is supposed to be guru of all other divisions, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. Sannyāsa is the topmost stage. So if you become guru, teacher, remembering the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then you will never fall down. He will save you. And how one becomes guru? That is also very easy. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You haven't got to manufacture anything. Simply you try to repeat the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣṇa upadeśa. Not only Bhagavad-gītā; there are many other instructions. Especially Bhagavad-gītā. So if you simply carry the message of Bhagavad-gītā, then you become guru. Don't manufacture anything. Then it will be spoiled. Simply stick primarily… Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. You can, everyone can, say this. Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me." So you can repeat only. You can say to others, "My dear sir, please think of Kṛṣṇa." It doesn't require very much education. Simply just like a peon carry the message: "Sir, you always think of Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā. Then you become guru. If you follow it strictly-you also think of Kṛṣṇa yourself, and you teach others, "My dear sir, my only request is that you think of Kṛṣṇa"-nobody will kill you. Everyone will… If he doesn't follow, he will appreciate you: "Oh, these sannyāsīs are very nice. They are advising to think of Kṛṣṇa." Then you become guru. Simple thing. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. And anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa, gradually he becomes a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: "You worship Me." Here is the temple, and anyone can worship Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied simply with a little flower and little water. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. It is not expensive. Anyone can bring little flower, little fruit, little tulasī leaf, and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ namaskuru. If you cannot do anything, simply offer your obeisances: "Kṛṣṇa, I am so poor, I cannot even secure a little fruit, flower, and water." That is not possible. Everyone can secure this patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam and offer to Kṛṣṇa and offer your obeisances.

So you have to teach only these things. Where is the difficulty? You do it personally and teach them. Then you become guru. It doesn't require to learn big, big, I mean to say, grantha like Vedānta. This is not possible in this Kali-yuga. If possible, you can study Vedānta and other. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taught us… When Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī inquired from Him that "You are a sannyāsī. You are not studying Vedānta, and simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What kind of sannyāsī You are?"-this question was put by Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī to Caitanya Mahāprabhu-Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "My dear sir, I am a great fool." Guru more mūrkha dekhi karila śāsana: [Cc. Ādi 7.71] "My guru saw Me a great fool number one; therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? That " 'You cannot read Vedānta. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So my Guru Mahārāja has ordered Me like that. But by chanting only, I get ecstasy, I realize, like that." So the idea is Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not a mūrkha, fool. He is God Himself. And besides that, even in His līlā, pastimes as human being, He was a great learned scholar. His name was Nimāi Paṇḍita. He was not ordinary. He's paṇḍita. His education is proved when He explained ātmārāma śloka in sixty-four ways.

ātmārāmāś ca munayo

nirgranthā apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukīṁ bhaktim

ittham-bhūta-guṇo hariḥ

This one verse He explained in sixty-four ways. Just see His learning. Not only that, when He was sixteen years old only, a great paṇḍita came to Navadvīpa. His name was Keśava Kāśmīrī. He conquered over all parts of the country…, India at least, because there was no possibility to go outside India. But He defeated him in one śloka when He was a boy. So He was not a fool, rascal. That is not the fact. But He represented Himself as a fool because we are fools. In this age we are all fools and rascals. What we shall read Vedānta and understand Vedānta? We have got practical experience how the so-called Vedāntists go to foreign countries and mislead them, and they learn how to eat meat and wine. This is their Vedānta knowledge. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu knew it very well that all the rascals, they will call them vedānti and do all nonsense. So don't become falsely a vedānti. Real vedānti means vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If you simply know Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then you become a vedanti, real vedanti. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15].

So always keep… This kind of duty was entrusted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu to the Indians.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that every Indian should learn what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preach it all over the world. That is His order. But our Indians are not taking care of it. Therefore it doesn't matter, Indian, or European or American, who will carry the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He will be benefited. He will be glorified. So don't be hesitating, because the soul is neither Indian or American. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Every one of us, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and our position is Brahman. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. So from that platform you go on preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By executing the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, you will be glorified, the country will be glorified, the whole world will benefit.

Thank you very much. (end)

751217LE.BOM

Lecture Engagement at Birla House

Bombay, December 17, 1975

Prabhupāda:

śrī prahlāda uvāca

kaumāram ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

(aside:) You can give some stand. How long he will stand?

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

This is the instruction of Prahlāda Mahārāja to his class friend. Prahlāda Mahārāja was born of Hiraṇyakaśipu, great demon. He is described as demon because he was interested only in material comforts. Hiraṇya means gold, gold and very comfortable situation of material life. He was interested in that, and he wanted to teach his son about this economic development. But Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was in the womb of his mother… There was fight between the demons and the demigods, so the demons-sometimes when there is fight, sometimes one party is victorious, sometimes the other party is victorious-so the demigods' party became victorious, and they were harassing the demons like anything. So Hiraṇyakaśipu's wife, she was pregnant, she was captured by Indra, the King of heaven, and she was being dragged to take her in the house of Indra. In the way, Nārada Muni met them; he chastised Indra. Nārada Muni was devarṣi, ṛṣi amongst the demigods. So he said, "Why you are giving trouble to this woman? This is not good." So the demons replied, demigods replied that "This woman is pregnant, and there is Hiraṇyakaśipu's son. So we want to kill that son also, because he is demon. So we are taking this woman to our place just to wait for the time of her delivering the child." At that time Nārada Muni said, "No, no. This child is not a demon child. This child who is within the womb of this woman, he is a great devotee, so don't try to kill him. Neither you can kill him, that is not possible." So they are demigods, they accepted Nārada Muni's proposal. So they offered respect to the woman, that "Here is, within the womb of this woman, a great devotee." So they circumambulated and offered respect to the wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu and they went away. So Nārada Muni took the wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu to his āśrama: "My dear girl, my dear daughter, you please come with me, remain with me till your husband comes back." So she agreed, and woman's natural propensity is to serve, so she was very nicely serving Nārada Muni, and Nārada Muni became very much pleased and he instructed about transcendental knowledge. Although to the wife of Hiraṇyakaśipu, but still the Hiraṇyakaśipu's son Prahlāda Mahārāja was within the womb, he also heard the instruction and he learnt everything. Later on he will explain that "My mother, on account of being woman, she has forgotten the instruction of Nārada, but I heard it even from within the womb; I remember it."

So this Prahlāda Mahārāja is repeating the same instruction which he heard from Nārada Muni when he was packed up within the womb. So this is one of the instruction, that spiritual instruction does not depend on any material condition. In any position one can understand spiritual instruction. Ahaituky apratihatā yena ātmā samprasīdati.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yena ātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

That is first-class religion, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6]. Parā means supreme. There are different types of religion, but the supreme religion is parā dharma, that is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, that religious system which instructs the followers how to become a perfect devotee of the Supreme Lord. That is first-class religion. We are fighting in this material world. "You are Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Sikh," "I am Jain," "I am this," "I am that," but this not paro dharma; this is aparo dharma. Parā and aparā, there are two qualities, just like material and spiritual. Material is called aparā, and spiritual means parā, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam.

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ

khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

[Bg. 7.4]

These material elements-earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, and false ego-these are eight material elements, out of which five are gross-bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyu-and three are very subtle. Just like everyone: I know you think with your mind; you know also I think with my mind. But mind is subtle. I cannot see your mind, neither you can see my mind, neither I can see my mind, nor you can see your mind. This is subtle. And the finer than the mind is intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is egoism or egotism, and finer than egotism is the soul.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little difficult for ordinary persons who are interested with the material gross and subtle elements. For them it is little difficult. But Kṛṣṇa says apareyam, "This is inferior, these energies." They are energies, prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. Prakṛti means energy, just like prakṛti means woman, naturally a woman is under the control of the man. That is our Vedic system, and natural system also. However, the woman may claim equal rights, they are under the control of the man. That is natural. So similarly prakṛti means which is under the control of the Supreme Lord. That is prakṛti. In another place, Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivarate

[Bg. 9.10]

Kṛṣṇa says mayādhyakṣeṇa: "Under My control the material nature is working." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ. In another place in Brahma-saṁhitā it is said how prakṛti is under the control of the Supreme Lord: sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. Durgā is the material nature. It is very powerful. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti, creation, maintenance and annihilation, is going on under her control, Durgā-devī. We have seen the picture of Durgā, ten hands with ten kinds of weapons. So she is very powerful, but still she is under the control of Govinda.

sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā

chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā

icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.44]

The mūla prakṛti, the original prakṛti, is fully under the control. Control means she acts according to the direction of Govinda. Yasya ajñayā, she is acting. So this prakṛti is inferior prakṛti, and there is another, superior prakṛti. That superior prakṛti is represented by Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. Rādhārāṇī and Durgā, both of them are prakṛtis of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but one prakṛti is meant for controlling this material world, and the other prakṛti is meant for blessing the spiritual world. Two prakṛtis are Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says,

apareyam itas tu (anyaṁ)

viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā

jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

So this jīva-bhūta, living entities, we are living entities, we also belong to the spiritual prakṛti, we are expansion of spiritual prakṛti. Just like Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is always engaged in the service of the Lord, anārādhyate. Ārādhyate, it is Rādhārāṇī. The Rādhārāṇī, the name has come from the word ārādhyate. Ārādhana, ārādhana means worshiping. So everyone is meant, beginning from Rādhārāṇī, and her expansion, Lakṣmī, in Vaikuṇṭha, lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānam, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.29]. Here we worship mother Lakṣmīji, goddess of fortune, to receive some favor. But in the Vaikuṇṭha world there are many hundred thousands of Lakṣmī, lakṣmī-sahasra-śata, and they are sambhrama-sevyamānam: with great respect, they are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord. So, we being expansion of the spiritual Lakṣmī, or Rādhārāṇī, our duty is to serve Rādhārāṇī, and through Rādhārāṇī to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are missing this point, that instead of learning from Rādhārāṇī how to serve Kṛṣṇa, we are being controlled by the another prakṛti, material energy, Durgā, with weapons in her ten hands. This is our position. Therefore we are missing the point, and it is said in Brahma-saṁhitā…, no, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam… This is also spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja:

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

So in this material world they do not know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. Everyone is very much expert to see his interest. Two businessmen, they are agreeing, but everyone is trying to see his personal interest first. This is called svārtha-gatim. That is natural. But Prahlāda Mahārāja says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇu. Unfortunately, these materialistic persons, they do not know what is his real interest. The real interest is Viṣṇu, how to serve Viṣṇu.

That is explained by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the beginning. Sanātana Gosvāmī, a great minister of Nawab Hussein Shah's government, he retired from his ministerial activities and became a servant of Caitanya Mahāprabhu to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The six Goswamis of Vṛndāvana:

śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raguṇath

śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raguṇatha

So there are many description about their activities in Vṛndāvana. Some of them are described by Śrīnivāsa Ācārya. The prime duty was, these Gosvāmīs, they were ministers, big, big zamindars. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was the only one son of his father and uncle, and in those days, five hundred years ago, their paternal income was twelve lakhs of rupees. So such person joined Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raguṇatha. Either they were very, very learned scholar or coming from very, very rich family, big post, all the six Goswamis.

śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha

śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha

So their business was, these Gosvāmīs, kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau: they were always engaged in chanting "Kṛṣṇa." That is the real purpose of human life, especially in this age. It is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to Parīkṣit Mahārāja by Śukadeva Goswami, he described the symptoms of Kali-yuga: it is very, very faulty. But he concluded that kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. In this age of Kali it is very fallen age, mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. The population in this age, they are, almost all of them they are manda-manda means bad or very slow-so they do not understand what is the aim of life, or very slow to understand; therefore they are called manda. And because they do not understand their real interest of life, they can be called very bad, manda. So these are the symptoms: mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ. So in this age, although it is so fallen, the śāstra says, doṣa-nidhe rājann, kalau doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. There is one great opportunity. What is that great opportunity? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. If one takes to chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then he becomes relieved or freed from the all contamination of this age, and mukta-saṅgaḥ, he becomes liberated and he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by chanting. That is mukti. Mukti means, we are now under the influence of this material energy, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4], this is aparā prakṛti. So aparā prakṛti, we have to give up the association of the aparā prakṛti, and we have to take shelter of parā prakṛti. This is our aim of life. The subject matter was how to become successful in life. That we are trying to explain. The success is that we have to give up the control, we have to become freed from the control of the aparā prakṛti, and we shall voluntarily submit to be favored by parā prakṛti. This is our business, aim of life. Then our life will be successful. If we miss this opportunity to give up the shelter of aparā prakṛti, and do not take shelter of the parā prakṛti, then we are missing the opportunity. It is very subtle thing, there is no education, but the information and the enlightenment is there in our śāstra. In Bhagavad-gītā everything is explained, how one can give up the control of the aparā prakṛti and be under the shelter of parā prakṛti.

daivī hi eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

[Bg. 7.14]

It is not very difficult. Kṛṣṇa comes to instruct this simple truth, that "You are being controlled by the material energy. You give up this business; you be controlled by the spiritual energy, and your life is successful." This is the method. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

So we are…, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for this purpose, that simply we are trying to educate people how to give up the control of the material energy, and under the control… Not to control the material energy; that we cannot do, that is not possible. But not to become under the control. That is very simple method: mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Just like if you become honest, if you are not criminal, then there is no police control-police may be there. But as soon as you become criminal, you come under the control of police. Similarly our business is, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, and everywhere in the śāstra, and actually we are so, we are eternal servant of God, or Kṛṣṇa. This is our real position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But our disease is instead of becoming dāsa, we are trying to become the master of the prakṛti. This is called materialistic way of life. So that will not make us happy at any stage of our life. This is very dangerous. We are missing the point.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

[SB 7.5.31]

We are forgetting that we are absolutely under the control of the material nature.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

We are fully under the control of material nature, and foolishly, ahaṅkāra, on account of being bewildered by false egotism, we are thinking that "I am independent." This is called material illusion.

So our first business is to understand what is this material world, what is the spiritual world, what is God, what is my relationship with Him, and how to execute the business of my life, to become successful in this human form of life. The success of human form of life is to understand this thing: our relationship with God. And we should act in relationship with God. Then our success of life will be achieved. This is the main purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is a very profound subject matter to understand, but everything is explained. Our only request is that you read Bhagavad-gītā as it is; don't try to interpret. That is useless. Otherwise why people have lost in India their own culture? Because they have interpreted wrongly. Every śāstra has been interpreted wrongly and therefore people are misguided. They could not take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā because all through, the Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted. So many so-called politicians, scholars, but it is maybe for the first time-not first time; it is there-but to make it broad propaganda wide, that try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any interpretation. That is our mission. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Don't try to interpret and spoil it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Ei deśa means, He was born in Bengal, India-it may be Bengal or in India-He, we have interested with every man all over the world,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra hoibe mora nāma

So He was interested in all the parts of the world, how they can be delivered from the clutches of this material energy. So He wished especially the Indians to take this job of preaching the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. He wanted it.

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma hoila yāra

janma sārthaka kari karo para-upakāra

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. It is not the business of the Indian people to exploit others. The mission is they must be very, very merciful to all outsiders, born in, out of India. That is India's mission. Because they are in darkness, they do not know. So instead of enlightenment, giving them jyotir gamaḥ-tamasi mā: "Don't remain in darkness"-so we are imitating them. This is not India's good fortune. We should not imitate. That is not very good civilization. That is, this has been described as asuric civilization in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇu: they do not know. Anyway, although they do not know, they are accepting now. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so potential that they are accepting, that is upakāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted this, para upakāra. They are in darkness, tamasi. Bring them in the light: tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ.

So this attempt has been done by us individually, with teeny effort, but it is becoming successful. But if we take up seriously this movement, every one of us become completely aware of this movement and take this mission as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Every one of you, you become a guru," by the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So "I shall become guru? What shall I do? I do not know anything." No! You haven't got to know anything. You simply, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa. You simply repeat the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Whomever you meet, you try to convince him; then you are guru. So our mission is this, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. We are trying to execute the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We don't say anything else except what is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Simple thing. It is not very difficult thing. Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me." Is it very difficult task? No. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you remember Kṛṣṇa immediately. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So always remember Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa's instruction, man-manā, "Always think of Me," mad-bhakta, and naturally you become bhakta. As soon as you go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, just like these European and American boys, they have been instructed to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra… Don't think that I showed them any magic, how to manufacture gold, or how to become this or that. No. Simply I have asked them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they have joined me because they have chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, the dirty things within the heart will be cleansed. They you will understand what is my position, what to do.

So this is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yāre dekha tāre kaha, Kṛṣṇa said that man-manā bhava mad-bhakta: "You just think of Me, you just become My devotee, mad-yājī, you just offer a little flower and water to Me." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. If you think that "We have got money. The money is for my enjoyment, and Kṛṣṇa may be offered a little water and flower," that is cheating; that is not good. According to your position you must worship. This is wanted. Otherwise, bita (indistinct). If you have got money and if you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, and you serve Kṛṣṇa with a little water and flower, Kṛṣṇa can understand this kind of cheating business. No. Everyone should worship Kṛṣṇa according to his position. That is wanted. Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. To become very big businessman is not ordinary thing; it requires tapasya, very great labour, brain, yat tapasyasi. But the result, Kṛṣṇa says, kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam, He's asking, "Give it to Me." So there is no harm to become very big businessman, earning money. That is all right-but you give it to Kṛṣṇa. Then in any position you can remain Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will understand Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjaṁ mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

Kṛṣṇa is explaining that everyone is trying to understand God, but by speculation you cannot understand. By service only you can understand. By attachment. You cannot serve Kṛṣṇa without being attached. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ: "Taking shelter of Me, or My devotee, if you practice this yoga system, bhakti-yoga system, increasing your attachment for Me, this is wanted." Kṛṣṇa consciousness means we have got attachment so many things, but that attachment has to be transferred to Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ asaṁśayam. Then asaṁśayam, without any doubt. To understand God there are three features: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So the ordinary person, they can be able to understand Brahman; a little advanced than them, they can understand Paramātmā; but to understand Kṛṣṇa is very difficult. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Out of many millions of persons, one tries to become siddha, perfect. What is that siddha? Brahma-jña. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. And out of the siddhas, those who are actually self-realized, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, out of many of them maybe one is able to understand Kṛṣṇa.

So Kṛṣṇa can be understood only by devotion. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. So we have to take this process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. So our only request is that to understand Kṛṣṇa is not very difficult if we read Bhagavad-gītā perfectly, seriously. Then Kṛṣṇa is understood. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa… Because Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, what is the difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa? Hm? If you, Mr. Birla, you explain that "I am like this. I have got so much money, I have got so many business, I have got so many factories," if you explain, then where is my difficulty? But if I speculate, "Mr. Birla may be…, so much (indistinct) may be had." That is always imperfect. But if you understand directly from Mr. Birla, then it is clear. So Kṛṣṇa, God, is explaining Himself, "I am like…" Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. So there is not very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa if we simply… But if we interpret foolishly, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa by misinterpretation, then the business is finished. Don't do that. Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is explaining Himself, then your life is successful. How it is successful?

janma karma ca me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti…

[Bg. 4.9]

That is successful. If one can understand Kṛṣṇa, about His activities, why He comes, He explains, yadā yadā hi dharmasya [Bg. 4.7], [break] …change this body. But we do not know what kind of body I am going to get. These information are there. But any kind of body you get, even in the higher planetary system as demigod, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16], that is not good. The best thing is you get a body, a spiritual body, like Kṛṣṇa, sat-cit-ānanda-vigraha. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti… [Bg. 4.9]. Then you haven't got to accept any more this material body. Then what happens to me? Mām eti, you come to Kṛṣṇa and enjoy with Him. That is success of life.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Any questions?

Girirāja: Any questions? (long silence)

Prabhupāda: Boliya mātājī. Prāśna boliya? There should be question. (another long silence)

Girirāja: The process of hearing and then asking questions is the way to clarify our understanding, just like Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. So actually we must have some questions in our minds; otherwise we would all immediately surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Either you surrender to Kṛṣṇa or clear it by question. (end)

751225LE.SAN

Lecture with Translator

Sanand, December 25, 1975

Prabhupāda: So if you have to translate, why not translate from English? That will be easier for me, and they will also understand. Tike? If he has to translate, then why not let me speak in English so that they will also understand?

Indian man: I will translate.

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavān means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absolute Truth is realized in three phases: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Absolute Truth can be realized in the beginning as impersonal Brahman, which is the objective of the jñānīs, and next, Paramātmā, which is the objective of the yogis, and at last, the last word in the absolute understanding is person, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ultimate issue is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like we understand that in the sun globe there is the Supreme Person or the sūrya-nārāyaṇa, or the chief person within the sun planet. His name is also given in the Bhagavad-gītā-Vivasvān. The Lord says in the Fourth Chapter, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I first of all explained this science, this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā, to Vivasvān, the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāhur manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. And Vivasvān, the sun-god, he explained to Manu, and Manu explained to his son. In this way, by the disciplic succession the knowledge has come down. So when we speak of jñāna, knowledge, it must be learned from a person. So Bhagavān, the last word in the understanding of Absolute Truth, He says in this Bhagavad-gītā.

So Vyāsadeva specifically means here, bhagavān uvāca. He does not say kṛṣṇa uvāca, because sometimes Kṛṣṇa is misunderstood by the fools. So bhagavān uvāca, this word, means whatever He says, there is no defect or deficiencies. For ordinary person like us there are four defects: bhrama pramāda vipralipsā kara-ṇāpāṭava. Vipralipsā, cheating. Vipralipsā, cheating. So in the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa or self-realized person, servants of Kṛṣṇa, those who have understood Kṛṣṇa, for them there are no deficiencies. They are perfect. For this reason Kṛṣṇa gives the instruction,

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

One who has actually seen or actually realized the truth, you have to take knowledge from there. So we have to approach such person. Otherwise, if we approach some speculator, we cannot get real knowledge. So those who are speculators, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they commit mistake that "God is like this," "God like that," "There is no God," "There is no form." All these nonsense things are proposed, because they are imperfect. Bhagavān therefore said, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Because He comes for our benefit in the human form, the fools and rascals consider Him as ordinary person. If Bhagavān says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4], "I am the seed-giving father," so we, every one of us, we know that my father is person, his father is person, his father is person, and why the Supreme Person or the supreme father should become imperson? Why? And therefore we have to learn from Bhagavān, the Supreme Person, full knowledge. This Bhagavad-gītā is therefore full knowledge from the full Personality of Godhead. We cannot change even one word in this Bhagavad-gītā. That is folly.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is following this principle. We don't manufacture any concocted things. We simply distribute the message given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And this is becoming effective practically. You can see practically these Europeans and Americans, Australians, all over the world, they did not know four or five years ago, or say ten years ago, since I have begun this movement, they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Although Bhagavad-gītā was being presented by so many swamis and yogis, not a single man became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So our, this presentation, because it is pure, without any adulteration, it is acting very nicely. Even the Christian priests, they become surprised when they see that these boys, their boys-they were Christians or Jews-they becomes surprised that "These boys were never coming to the church. They were never interested in understanding what is God. Now, since this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there, how these boys have become so mad after God?" The only reason is that we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We preach that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says also in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So this is being effective, that if we really want to understand Bhagavad-gītā, we must understand as it is presented by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the instruction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the movement which was given to us by Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is this. He says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So He is asking everyone, especially bharatīya,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being conducted or was started by single-handed, myself. If all the Indian sages and saintly person, they take Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and preach all over the world, there is great, great demand for it. Unfortunately, so many persons go there. One big swami, he said that "Kṛṣṇa means black, and black means unknown." Of course, nobody cares for his speech. Kṛṣṇa is going on, forward. Everyone is accepting Kṛṣṇa. But this is the most unfortunate thing, that our men go there to deprecate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should very carefully try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is presented by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. This should be preached, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme, ultimate. Ahaṁ saravsya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Even Brahman, Paramātmā, has also come from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is ultimate. He says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. He is the supreme of all the demigods. There is no need of worshiping any other demigod. Kṛṣṇa says, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Hṛta-jñāna. Hṛta-jñāna means who has lost his intelligence. How he has lost his intelligence? Because they get from these demigods some temporary benefit. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23].

So our real problem is that we… Every one of us, we are the spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We are struggling for existence within this material world. So manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7], struggle for existence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "Your real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]." We are eternal. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So if I am eternal, nityaḥ śāśvata, then why I am accepting death? This is real question. But foolishly we are thinking, "I am this body." Therefore we remain as an animal. So we should be interested to understand actually "What I am," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is real solution of all problems. This is called knowledge. But sometimes we are misled by misleaders; therefore we still remain in darkness in spite of cultivating knowledge. But actually, when we cultivate knowledge under the guidance of real guru, then we can understand vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. This is confirmed in the Vedas, Brahma-saṁhitā:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So spiritual knowledge means to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the sum and substance, to understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is, not that concocting, manufacturing that "Kṛṣṇa is this. Kṛṣṇa is that." No. As Kṛṣṇa says, as śāstra says what is Kṛṣṇa, you have to understand it like that. So sādhu śāstra guru vākya. It is said that we have to accept knowledge through saintly person. Through śāstra and guru we have to understand. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all the sādhus and ācāryas. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu-all of them accepted Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So ācārya means one who has learned, taken knowledge from the śāstra, authoritative śāstra, Vedas. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended, ācāryopāsanam. If you want real knowledge, then you must take knowledge from the ācāryas or the ācārya-paramparā. Then there is knowledge. Otherwise it is ignorance.

So under the circumstances, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavān says… Śrī-bhagavān uvāca, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha. The real business is to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. This is your real business. How we can increase our attachment for Kṛṣṇa, that is explained by Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. The āsakti, attachment, it has to be done according to the system, ādau śraddhā. First thing is śraddhā, little faith, that "Let us go to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and let us hear what they say." This is called śraddhā. Then, if you become interested, then sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Those who are actually devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa, you have to associate with them. And who is sādhu? Sādhu is described by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā:

api cet sudurācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ…

[Bg. 9.30]

He is sādhu who is… So the fact is, sādhu means unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He is sādhu. Śuddha-bhakta.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmady anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

[Brs. 1.1.11]

One who has no other desire than to serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, he is sādhu.

So we are sending all these sādhus all over the world, these European and American sādhus, because they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any doubt. And it is becoming effective. Because we have got so many expansive centers all over the world, it is not possible for me to go everywhere. But these boys, because they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously, they are doing very nice. And it is not difficult for them, because we have given this English translation of this book. We have got at least eighty books of four hundred pages, and they are preaching very nicely. And by the grace of Kṛṣṇa… You'll be surprised to understand that we are selling books, not less than one lakh of rupees per day. So the preaching is going on very nicely. We request all Indians to take part in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and be yourself happy, be yourself guru, and deliver all other persons who are in ignorance. And to become guru is not very difficult. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

You become guru. It is not very difficult. How? Now, because you have to simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. So Kṛṣṇa says everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These four things if you accept-to think of Kṛṣṇa always, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, to offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa and to worship Kṛṣṇa-these four things if you do, you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and you can preach all over the world. It is not at all difficult. So if you become sincere, seriously Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there will be no difficulty because Kṛṣṇa says,

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam…

[Bg. 10.10]

If you constantly, twenty-four hours remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, man-manā, then-Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart-He will give you instruction, "Do like this." So Bhagavān is not far away from you. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna [Bg. 18.61]. He is staying within the core of your heart. But if you qualify yourself as devotee, He'll speak with you. But if you commit offenses, thinking Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man, then Kṛṣṇa will never give you instruction.

So our request is, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you study Bhagavad-gītā. You don't require… Because Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Vedas means if you are actually a student of Veda or Vedānta, Veda-Vedānta, then the ultimate goal is to understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, however big Vedāntist you may be, you remain a fool. This is the conclusion of Bhagavad-gītā.

Thank you very much. (end)

751227LE.SAN

Lecture with Translator

Sanand, December 27, 1975

Prabhupāda: …śrī-bhagavān uvāca means the supreme authority. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. If you learn from the supreme authority without any deficiency, then the knowledge is perfect. Ordinary person, they have got four deficiencies: they commit mistake, they are illusioned, their senses are imperfect, and with imperfect knowledge they try to speak-that is cheating. Therefore we have to receive knowledge from the person who knows past, present, and future. So the best personality-there are so many others-Kṛṣṇa and His representative, both of them are perfect because Kṛṣṇa is perfect, there is no doubt, and one who speaks according to Kṛṣṇa, he is also perfect. A human being or a living being is not expected to become as perfect as Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Therefore, if a person sticks to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, does not make any addition and alteration, he is also perfect. Unfortunately, at the present moment especially… It was done formerly also five thousand years, that they make addition and alteration on the version of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is misinterpreted by so-called scholars and politicians. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Somebody interprets, "This dharma-kṣetra is this body." Why? Why one should interpret in that way? Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre is still there. People go to Kurukṣetra for executing religious rituals. And in the Vedas it is stated, kuru-kṣetre dharmam ācaret. So why it should be interpreted as "body"? And where is the dictionary where dharma-kṣetra means "body"? So in this way, if we interpret Bhagavad-gītā, then we spoil the whole thing. I spoil myself and spoil others. Therefore the conclusion is we shall accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa.

So here the bhagavān uvāca, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is speaking. So we shall take it without any interpretation. The Bhagavān says, mayy āsakta-manāḥ.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ (māṁ)

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

So Bhagavān says, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme authority, says that "You require to transfer your āsakti, attachment, to Me." Everyone has got āsakti. Aśakti means attachment, this material attachment. Someone has got attachment for his family, some to society, some to nation, some in business and so many things. Aśakti is there. But to make your life perfect, you have to transfer the āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. In the Western countries, I have seen, most of them, they have got no family, no āsakti family, but because the āsakti is there, every one of them keeps a dog. So they are accustomed to place their āsakti to cats and dogs. That means āsakti cannot be finished. That is not possible. So you haven't got to learn what is āsakti. Aśakti is there. Everyone has got experience. Simply that āsakti, that tendency of attachment, should be transferred to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana the center of āsakti is Kṛṣṇa. There is Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodā-they have āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. The young girls, they have got āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. The cowherd boys, they have got āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. The trees, they have got āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. The fruits, flowers, they have got āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. The water, Yamunā River, the āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. So if we make our central point of āsakti, then you can create Vṛndāvana everywhere. So this is the success of life. We have to change the āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest form of mystic yoga. Kṛṣṇa has already explained in the previous verse,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo (mataḥ)

[Bg. 6.47]

Aneka yogis… There are many yogis, many form of yoga practice, mystic, but the yogi who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogi.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become attached to Kṛṣṇa. But if one does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of increasing his āsakti for Kṛṣṇa. So to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa personally appears to draw our attention to Kṛṣṇa. When we forget our āsakti, that is material life, forget our āsakti for Kṛṣṇa, that is our material life, or we struggle for existence in the material life. That is said by Kṛṣṇa:

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

[Bg. 4.7]

This dharmasya glāni, deviation from the occupational duty… Dharma means occupational duty. Then Kṛṣṇa, out of His causeless mercy, He appears to teach us how to divert your attention and āsakti to Kṛṣṇa. So dharmasya glāni, deviation in the path of religious system, means to forget our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa ultimately, at the end of the Bhagavad-gītā, He says, as the Supreme Person, He orders, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore He did not come to establish the so-called Hindu dharma or Mussulman dharma or Christian dharma, this dharma or that. He came to establish the real dharma, that is, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is establishing also in the beginning, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the so-called cheating ways and cheating type of dharmas are kicked out, projjhita, thrown away. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is explaining what is real dharma as it is established by Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So according to dharma-śāstra, material dharma-śāstra, it is said, dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90], up to mokṣa. In this connection Śrīdhara Swami, the great commentator of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he says, atra mokṣa-vāñchā api nirasta: "In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is no chance or opportunity for thinking of so-called liberation." The purpose is that if one fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he immediately becomes liberated. The Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, he says, muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate asmān. Why… For a devotee, why he should be anxious for mukti, because mukti is always standing on his door to give him service, mukulitāñjali-sevā, with folded hands. So a devotee hasn't got to endeavor separately for mukti. As soon as he is engaged in devotional service, mukti is already there. Just like if a person becomes rich man, automatically his poverty is gone away. So a rich man does not require to endeavor separately to drive away poverty. So therefore the central point is, Kṛṣṇa is advising here, "Just increase your āsakti, attachment, for Me. Then everything will come."

So He recommends, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. This word mad-āśrayaḥ is very important, because you cannot increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa without being mad-āśrayaḥ. Mad-āśrayaḥ means to be directly under the direction of Kṛṣṇa or to be directly under the direction of somebody who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He recommends mad-āśrayaḥ. You cannot execute the yoga system, devotional service, bhakti-yoga, without being under the control of somebody who is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī has recommended therefore, yad upāśrayāśraya. One has to take shelter of a pure devotee; then he becomes purified. Yad upāśraya. Upāśraya means to take shelter of a pure devotee. And in that case,

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā

ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ

ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ

śudhyanti (tasmai) prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ

[SB 2.4.18]

So not only those who are highly elevated brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra… Śūdras… Less than śūdra, they are called kirāta, hūṇa, āndhra, pulinda, pulkaśā, ābhīra, yavanāḥ, khasādayaḥ. They also can be purified if they take shelter of a pure devotee. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ ca…,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striya vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

[Bg. 9.32]

Means that "Anyone, even if he is born in the pāpa-yoni, the pāpa-yoni, kirāta, hūṇa, if he takes shelter of Me, then he also gets the supreme perfection." Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Now it is the duty of a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to expand this progressive march toward devotional service. Otherwise, how the pāpa-yoni will learn? This is para upakāra. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

That every Indian who has taken birth in India as a human being, he should first of all make his life successful by understanding Kṛṣṇa, and then he must preach outside to render service to others as welfare activities.

So Kṛṣṇa appeared as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to teach us practically how to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness and how to deliver persons from the pāpa-yoni. Śrī Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a ācārya of the Gauḍīya sampradāya, he says in his song, śrī-nanda-nandana yei, nanda-suta haila yei, śacī-suta haila sei. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared as the son of mother Śacī. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, "The same Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of Mahārāja Nanda," nanda-suta haila yei, śacī-suta haila sei, "He has now appeared as the son of mother Śacī." And balarāma haila nitāi: "And the same Balarāma has appeared as Nityānanda prabhu." Now, what is Their business? That is described: pāpī tāpī yata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. So pāpī tāpī yata chilo, harinām…, ta'ra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. Then he is giving evidence how the pāpī and tāpīs are delivered. "Here is the example of Jagāi-Mādhāi." This Jagāi-Mādhāi, they took birth in a good brāhmaṇa family but by bad association they became drunkard, thief, woman-hunter, and so on, so on. But they were also delivered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu to become first-class Vaiṣṇava.

So our aim should be how to increase our attachment. The attachment is there. It is not artificial. It is said in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that,

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

The Kṛṣṇa bhakti, attachment for Kṛṣṇa, is quite natural. It is already there. Simply it has to be awakened.

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

If you engage yourself to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then your heart will be purified and your original Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be awakened. For this purpose Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu also advises, paraṁ vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam, "All glories to the saṅkīrtana movement," because simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, everything will automatically come in. The complete instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu is,

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaṁ

(sarvātma-snapanaṁ) paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam

[Cc. Antya 20.12]

So the saṅkīrtana movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the more you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, your, the heart disease, material enjoyment, that will decrease, and then you will understand what is your position and you will be gradually attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. This is the test of bhakti, that if you engage yourself twenty-four hours in devotional service, then immediately you become liberated. Bhaktiḥ pareśā… Liberation means to become detestful to material enjoyment.

So Kṛṣṇa attachment is so nice that… Dhruva Mahārāja, he was in the beginning attracted by material enjoyment. He wanted a kingdom more than his father, and he went to the forest for meeting the Supreme Personality of Godhead to get this benediction. So Dhruva Mahārāja actually, when he saw the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he refused to accept any benediction. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. This is the benefit of Kṛṣṇa āsakti. If you actually become attached to Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think yourself completely filled up. There is no more asking for any material benefit. Therefore in the śāstra it is recommended,

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā

mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ

tīvreṇa bhakti-yogena

yajeta paramaṁ puruṣa

[SB 2.3.10]

Even if you have got material desires, sarva-kāma, still you be attached to Kṛṣṇa so your material aspiration will be fulfilled; at the same time, you'll get Kṛṣṇa. When Dhruva Mahārāja refused to take any benediction, Lord Viṣṇu informed him that "Don't bother. You had some desire for material fulfillment, so there is Dhruvaloka. You enjoy, and after your life is finished, you'll come to Vaikuṇṭha." So Kṛṣṇa is so nice, so liberal, that if you have got a little tinge of aspiration He will fulfill you, and at the same time, you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore it is recommended, yajeta paramaṁ puruṣa. If you have got some material desire, still you worship Kṛṣṇa. He'll fulfill; at the same time, you will be able to go back to home, back to Godhead. Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful, almighty, full with six opulences. So if you have got any material desire, that also Kṛṣṇa can fulfill, but you stick to Kṛṣṇa so that your āsakti will be increased. If you divert your attention to other demigods, then this āsakti will fail. Therefore for a devotee who sticks his faith in Kṛṣṇa, he has no chance for worshiping other demigods. So the Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, anya devāśraya nāi, tomāre kahinu bhāi, ei parama bhakti karaṇa. For a devotee of Kṛṣṇa there is no scope for worshiping other Deity, because that will not help him to increase his attachment for Kṛṣṇa. But if we want our āsakti, attachment, to increase for Kṛṣṇa, then absolute…

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā

[Brs. 1.1.11]

We have to give up all other material desires, simply stick to Kṛṣṇa to serve Him, always ready to serve Him. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like Arjuna. He was ready to serve Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, everyone should be ready to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection of life.

So one has to execute this process of devotional service. As Kṛṣṇa said, mad-āśraya: "Take shelter of Me, or My devotee." Now, at the present moment, in the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is personally instructing, so let us take shelter of His personal instruction and make our life successful. And not only he becomes a devotee, but a pure devotee understands Kṛṣṇa as it is said here, asaṁśayaṁ samagram, not partially but fully. It is, of course, not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa fully. Still, almost fully a devotee can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is also confirmed in the last paragraph, last chapter,

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti

yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ

tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā

viśate tad-anantaram

[Bg. 18.55]

So if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must increase our attachment for Kṛṣṇa, and by that process we can understand Kṛṣṇa, what He is. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Then our door to go back to home, back to Godhead is clear. The conclusion is, therefore, that we should take to the bhakti process as it is enunciated in authoritative śāstra, by Kṛṣṇa, by the ācāryas. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the way, only, for our perfection of life.

Thank you very much. (end)

760104LE.NEL

Lecture

Nellore, January 4, 1976

Prabhupāda: …Mr. Reddy and Ladies and Gentlemen, I cannot speak in Telugu. Kindly excuse me. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very, very old, at least five thousand years old. And if we take history before that, then it is at least forty millions of years old. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness was spoken by Kṛṣṇa before the Battlefield of…, Battlefield of Kurukṣetra took place. Kṛṣṇa instructed this same Bhagavad-gītā philosophy to the sun-god. He says in the Fourth Chapter,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

sa kāleneha (mahatā)

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

So this transcendental science, bhakti-yoga, means to surrender unto the Supreme Lord. This is the simple thing. God is great and we are small. God is prabhu, and we are aṇu. We have got the God's quality as part and parcel, mamaivāṁśa jīva-bhūtaḥ. Kṛṣṇa says that "These jīvas, they are My part and parcel." So gold mine and gold earring, both of them are gold, but the quantity of gold in the earring and the quantity of gold in the mine is not the same. This is right understanding. There are two classes of philosophers. One is thinking that "I am one with the Supreme"-monism, or brahma-līna. And the Vaiṣṇava, they are thinking that "We are different from God"-that is the fact-"and God is great, and we are very, very small, minute fractional part of God." So bheda abheda. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu summarizes that bheda and abheda both. In quality we are abheda, but in quantity we are bheda. So therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy is acintya-bhedābheda-tattva. That is the fact. If I am equal to God or if I am God, then how I have become a dog? So this is a controversial going on. But from Bhagavad-gītā, as God explains Himself, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. He is the Supreme. And in the Brahma-saṁhitā described by Lord Brahmā, he says,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Kṛṣṇa also said. The Vedānta says that the Absolute Truth is that from where everything emanates, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. And Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ.

So we have to follow mahājana because we are tiny living entities. We cannot speculate. This is nonsense. Speculation is nonsense. Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso [Bs. 5.34]. If we speculate we shall never reach the Absolute Truth. That is not possible. But power is very limited. How long I shall speculate? This is called kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. Just like a frog in the well is informed by his friend, "My dear friend, Mr. Frog, or Dr. Frog, I have seen a big, vast mass of water, Atlantic Ocean." The frog, he has never seen the Atlantic Ocean. So he is speculating, "Atlantic Ocean? The well is three feet round. It may be four feet." "No, no. It is very…" "All right, five feet? Six feet? Ten feet?" So how long he will speculate? There is no comparison. Similarly, the greatness of God we cannot speculate. That is not possible. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. Brahmā… There are millions of Brahmā and millions of brahmāṇḍa, and they are coming with the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo [Bs. 5.48]. That Viṣṇu, Mahā-Viṣṇu, who is breathing millions of brahmāṇḍas and Brahmās during the breathing period, such Mahā-Viṣṇu is also āṁśa-kāla. Svāṁśa, and then part of svāṁśa. So govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham. So it is not possible to understand the nature of God, or Kṛṣṇa, by our tiny speculation. It is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes down to explain Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. This is dharmasya glāni, godlessness. This is called dhar… Everyone is dependent. In the modern civilization, especially in the Kali-yuga, everyone is dependent, but he is thinking that he is independent. That is the folly. In minute to minute, step to step, he is completely dependent. But still he is thinking, "Independent." He is speculating independently to understand what is God. So especially mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā [SB 1.1.10]. This Kali-yuga they are very slow or bad, manda. And sumanda-matayo, and they accept some "ism." Sumanda-matayo. And create some mat, matavādī. But this will not help us. We must know that we are dependent. We are dependent on the laws of material nature, and the material nature is working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagat viparivartate

[Bg. 9.10]

So these things are there. Unfortunately, we do not take care of it. Bhagavad-gītā, I think, throughout the whole world, at least in India, in every house, every home, there is Bhagavad-gītā. But we do not understand Kṛṣṇa. This is our misfortune. This is our misfortune. This is dharmasya glāni, that Kṛṣṇa explaining, the śāstra explaining that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28], but we do not understand. And mandāḥ sumanda-matayo [SB 1.1.10]. This is due to misfortune. Manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a tiny little attempt to convince people that "You are searching after God. Take. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Take His address. Take His father's name. Take His mother's name. Why you are searching? Here is God." This is our mission. So we haven't got to manufacture anything, because every information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. And especially Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has explained. What is Kṛṣṇa, He has explained. And Kṛṣṇa has explained. Then where is the difficulty to understand God? There is no difficulty.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission… We are carrying out the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants that people are suffering for lack of God consciousness, so preach God consciousness all over the world. (aside:) Don't talk. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, especially to the Indians, He says,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Bhārata-bhūmi, those who are born in India, their business is to do welfare activities throughout the whole world, because the whole world is in darkness about understanding the Supreme Person with whom we have got very intimate relationship because we are part and parcel. Just like your son is part and parcel of your body. Somehow or other, if he forgets and goes out of home, you are anxious to see that your son comes back. A son may have become mad. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa, He is the son of… Kṛṣṇa is the father of all living entities. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrt…, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the seed-giving father." So Kṛṣṇa is very, very anxious to take us back to home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Therefore He comes personally, He sends His representative, He leaves behind Him Bhagavad-gītā, so we can take advantage and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our real happiness. Any man who is wandering in the foreign countries without any shelter, without any security, his happiness is when he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

So we living entities, we are here in this material world. We are loitering in different bodies. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Now I am Indian or American. I am very great leader, Indian leader or American. Next moment I may become a dog or cat. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is absolute. There is no question of… Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor deha upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. As we are working, creating a mentality-just like if I am infecting some disease, then I have to suffer from that disease-so similarly, this material world is consisting of three modes of nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, and mixed. So we are infecting according to our activities. The first-class position is to become a qualified brāhmaṇa. Śamo damo satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. So that is the best quality. And next the kṣatriya quality, next the vaiśya quality… Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. So according to the infection of different qualities, we are preparing the next body, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. This is karma. You work as a brāhmaṇa, you work as a kṣatriya, svakarma, according to your capacity, quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa. These guṇa… As we are associating with the qualities and acting, then we are creating a body next life. So next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ… [Bg. 2.13]. As we pass from one form of body even in this life, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to old age… Kṛṣṇa begins His instruction with this point, that we must know what we are. We are not this body. If we remain in the bodily concept of life, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit

janeṣu abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

So India especially, we have got so much advantages, so many Vedic literatures, and instruction by Kṛṣṇa, instruction by Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. So we can very easily make our life perfect. In other countries they cannot. They haven't got the advantage. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that those who are born in India, special privilege, they should take advantage of this infallible experience of the great sages, saintly persons, even by God personally. Why you should neglect this? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said that "Make your life perfect. Take very seriously the instruction of the Vedic literature, and understand the position and preach this cult all over the world." That is para-upakāra, not that "I have understood that I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." No. You preach how you are brahmāsmi, how you can remain in the Brahman platform. Simply understanding will not do, theoretical. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. This theoretical knowledge is good, but there must be practical application. Then it is… Then it will stand. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

[Bg. 18.54]

That means simply to understand that "I am Brahman" will not endure. You must keep yourself as Brahman in the Brahman platform. And what is that? Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. You must act as a Brahman. That is mad-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa said. And in another place Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ cāvyabhicāriṇi

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

That is… After Brahman stage… Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]-Absolute Truth.

So if you simply come to the Brahman stage, param pada, that will not endure. There is every chance of falling down. Just like you go in the sky in eighteen thousand miles per hour, and so on, so on. Just like these people are trying to go to the moon planet. If you get shelter in moon planet or any other planet, then you will be able to stay. Otherwise, come back again. They are coming back. They are going… It is well advertised they are going to the moon planet. Then why they are coming back? Why you should come back? So the idea is that simply in the Brahman, impersonal stage… Just like sky, nirviśeṣa. You can go eighteen miles, eighteen thousand miles speed, but if you don't get a shelter, then you'll have to come back again. This is the risk. So you must get shelter. So the Bhāgavata therefore advises that āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. You can go very high in the sky, but if you don't get any shelter in any other planet… So similarly, you can make your spiritual progress understanding of Brahman, but if you do not get any shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then you'll fall down. That is a fact. We have seen many sannyāsīs. They give up this material world, that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Then, after some years, he comes down again this mithyā jagat to open schools and hospitals. And if this world is mithyā, then why you are interested with the schools and hospitals? That means they could not get any Brahman realization. They again come to taste. So therefore śāstra says, āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32]. One can rise up to the paraṁ pada, brahma pada, but patanty tataḥ. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho. Adho means this material world. Why? Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. They could not take shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. This Brahman is the rays of the body of Kṛṣṇa, just like the sunshine is the rays of the sun-god, the sun planet.

So unless we come to the point of taking shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, our life is imperfect. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes. He says ultimately that "My dear Arjuna, because you are My very dear friend, I am giving you the most confidential knowledge." What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is most confidential. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is the same because Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa reminded that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, but the duṣkṛtina mūḍha narādhama, they could not understand it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu came again as a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to teach how to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that-His mission is especially to the Indians, those who are born in India-that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. This instruction was given in South India when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was traveling in South India. So many people… He was attractive, and… "Sir, take me with You. Sir, take me with You." He traveled in the villages, villages, very extensively. Especially He traveled in South India. So at that time this instruction was given to some South Indian brāhmaṇa: "My dear sir, better stay here. Don't come with Me. You try to preach My philosophy. You haven't got to come with Me." So He said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā, that "Why you want to come with Me? My mission is this. If you want to help Me, then you become a guru under My instruction. You become a guru." "Sir, I have no education. I am not a brāhmaṇa. I am this. I am that. How can I become guru?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Where you are living, you just try to deliver them. But you become a guru." "How I shall become?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa: "Simply you instruct what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Then you become guru. You don't require any other qual…" "No, I am not a brāhmaṇa; I am śūdra, I am this or…" That is also all right, because He said to Rāmānanda Rāya when… He was śūdra. He was talking with Caitanya Mahāprabhu but he was very learned devotee. So he was feeling hesitation that "Caitanya Mahāprabhu's coming from very high-grade brāhmaṇa, and He is sannyāsa. His position is very exalted. I am a śūdra. How I can advise Him?" He was questioning, and Rāmānanda Rāya was answering. So the answer-giver is in superior position, so he hesitated. So while he was hesitating, Caitanya Mahāprabhu encouraged him,

kibā śūdra kibā vipra nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya

[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

He said, "It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or… These are all bodily conception of life. You become above the bodily conception of life. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa." Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā.

To understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti…

[Bg. 7.3]

It is not so easy, but it can be very easy, provided we take this bhakti-mārga. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Very easy. And what is bhakti? Bhakti is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things: "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. You can think of Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? It doesn't require that you have to pass your Ph.D. examination; then you can think of Kṛṣṇa. No. Anyone, even a child, can think. Man-manā. And who can concentrate on Kṛṣṇa unless he is a devotee? So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: "You worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. "By executing these four principles of life you will come back to Me"-mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]-"without any doubt." So it is not at all difficult. Had it been difficult… I am collecting my disciples throughout the whole world, and we condemn them according to our… "They are mlecchas, yavanas." Maybe they are mlecchas, yavanas, but Śukadeva Gosvāmī said that even mlecchas-yavanas, they can be purified.

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā

ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ

ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ

śudhyanti…

[SB 2.4.18]

They can become purified by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we are suffering in this material world on account of forgetting Kṛṣṇa. This is the root cause, forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the seed-giving father of everyone," and we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. We have forgotten our father. This is the disease. So in order to cure this disease, to awaken them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best welfare activity in the world, para-upakara. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is that. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra. India's mission is not that we colonize in other country and exploit them and bring money and become a lord. No. India's mission is how to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. That is India's mission. Revive Kṛṣṇa con… Revive your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, be fixed up in Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute this knowledge. This is Indian mission. So it was… Caitanya Mahāprabhu has entrusted this missionary work to everyone. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. So there is good field for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want it. They are reading our Kṛṣṇa conscious books very nicely. We are selling not less than 100,000 worth books daily. They are purchasing. So I wish that in India people should take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and be… Every one of you should become Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go to the outside countries and preach this. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does… You haven't got to manufacture something by your fertile brain, speculating. That is useless, nonsense. Simply you take what Kṛṣṇa has said and preach it. You become a guru and you deliver the whole world.

Thank you very much. (end)

760115SP.MAY

Speech Excerpt

Māyāpur, January 15, 1976

Prabhupāda: …that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's aspiration that the Europeans, Americans, and Indians all together dance jubilantly and chanting "Gaura Hari." So this temple, Māyāpur Chandrodaya temple, is meant for transcendental United Nation. What the United Nation has failed, that will be achieved here by the process recommended by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

So you have come from all parts of the world and living together in this temple. So train these small boys. I am very glad, especially to see that the small children from all other countries and Indian, Bengalis, all together, forgetting their bodily consciousness. That is the greatest achievement in this movement, that everyone forgets the bodily conception of life. Nobody thinks here as "European," "American," "Indian," "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian." They forget all these designation, and simply they are ecstatic in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So kindly what you have begun, do not break it. Continue it very jubilantly. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the master of Māyāpur, He will be very much pleased upon you and ultimately you will go back to home, back to Godhead.

Thank you very much. (end)

760407SP.VRN

Speech to Devotees

Vṛndāvana, April 7, 1976

Prabhupāda: (chants maṅgalācaraṇa prayers) So since the beginning of this meeting the speakers were talking in Hindi, but these foreigners, they could not understand. But out of reverence they were sitting. So I have taken permission to give them the summary of the speeches spoken by the Vaiṣṇavas, especially by Śrīman Bhakti-dīpa Mahārāja. Bhakti-dīpa Mahārāja is disciple of my elder Godbrother, so naturally he is very affectionate to me especially. Sometimes we lived together, and we follow the same principles of philosophy. So his speech about vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhi, arcye viṣṇau-śilā-dhīr, this is very important. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. He wanted that everywhere in the nook and corner of this world, every city, every town, every village, there should be the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Chanting should be preached. So by His grace it is going on. Now in the remotest part of the world, even in Australia, the southernmost part of this globe, there also we have got four branches-Melbourne, Sydney-and we have got a very big building, very big temple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Last year I established, and many hundred thousand devotees are coming. So certainly the Caitanya Mahāprabhu foretelling is now spreading.

So this bhajana, as our speaker, Bhaktama (?), he said that,

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā

bhajanti māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

So people say that I have done miracle. Maybe. At least it is the first time in the history that Vedic culture in its true form is bring distributed all over the world. We have got many, many appreciation by the learned scholar circle, big, big professors all over the world. They are accepting that this is the first time that India's traditional spiritual culture is being spread. One professor in France, he has plainly said that even Aurobindo or Dr. Radhakrishnan, they presented this Vedic culture in a modernized way, not in its original traditional form. That is a fact. We don't make any compromise. Therefore we have especially meant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to follow what Kṛṣṇa says. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Ei deśa. Wherever you are, it doesn't matter. Either you are in India or in America or France or anywhere, any deśa, or any country, wherever you are, just try to deliver them. Because guru's business is to deliver the fallen souls.

saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka

trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam

prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

Guru's business is not to exploit the śiṣya. It is the business, how to deliver. So who can deliver? Who is actually guru in the paramparā system? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. So we have to take the authority of become guru from Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the same thing. Within five hundred years His order is that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You cannot become guru all of a sudden. You must take order from Me." He is jagad-guru. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you, all of you, to become guru and deliver. Because there are so many innumerable fallen souls in this age-mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]-we require hundreds and thousands of gurus. But not cheaters. This is the time when requires hundreds and thousands of gurus. But who will become guru? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's injunction, āmāra ājñāya: "By My order you become guru. Don't be all of a sudden guru. Become guru on My order."

So what is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Kṛṣṇa varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam… [SB 11.5.32]. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. As Kṛṣṇa orders by directly, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], Kṛṣṇa can do that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa, but He is acting as devotee. This is… Kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand that "Here is Kṛṣṇa Himself in the form of Kṛṣṇa devotee. Therefore He can deliver Kṛṣṇa-prema, not only Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa-prema." So He is giving very simple formula:

āmāra ajñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

Simple thing. We don't require to be very learned scholar, M.A., Ph.D. If you simply follow what Kṛṣṇa has said in the Bhagavad-gītā… If you do not go very deep into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam especially, and if you simply read the Bhagavad-gītā… We are presenting, therefore, Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any adulteration. They give me so much credit that "You have done wonderful, miracle," and I do not know how to play any miracle. Our Dipa Mahārāja knows me from the very beginning. I do not know how to play magic. I do not know. But only magic is that I don't adulterate. That's all. I don't adulterate. I say simple thing. Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Absolute Truth, that's all. What difficulty you have? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. And He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things: "Always think of Me…" So I am teaching them, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You'll think of Him." So man-manā. And who can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa unless he is a devotee? Ordinary man cannot chant. He has no taste. But these boys, they are taking my word very seriously. I have asked them to refrain from four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling. They are seriously following. They have no illicit sex. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was questioned by a gṛhastha devotee, "How we can understand a Vaiṣṇava?" So He summarily replied that "Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava perfectly…" Asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. This is the first principle. Don't associate with asat. Asato mā sad gama. So next line He described who is asat. Asat eka strī-saṅgī, kṛṣṇābhakta āra-finished. In two lines we can understand who is a Vaiṣṇava. So I have asked them. These people, European and American, they are ordinarily very much accustomed to these habit: illicit sex, gambling, meat-eating. But upon my word they have given up everything. Asat-saṅga-tyāga ei vaiṣṇava…

So there are many things. And other thing? They are reading the Vaiṣṇava literature very nicely, and they are pushing the Vaiṣṇava literature all over the world. By their personal efforts they are giving service. We have about sixty-five volumes, books, each book four hundred pages. And they are introducing in the universities, colleges, library. Even sometimes they are beaten. In this way these boys, they are helping this movement. And perhaps you'll be surprised that our sale collection from the books is not less than one lakh of rupees per day, sometimes five lakh of rupees per day. So this movement has captured the ideas, spiritual ideas of the Western people, by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And as His foretelling or you are expecting, ambition, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, that is being done. And unfortunately in India they are not received very well. The government is thinking they are, what is that? CIA. A CIA has become (?) to become Vaiṣṇava dancing in Vṛndāvana. (laughter) Just see their intelligence. And Purī also, they are not allowed to enter in the Jagannātha temple. These things are going on. So this is very regrettable, and our Śrīman Bhakti-dīpa Mahārāja has strongly protested against this idea. Therefore I thank him very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Indian man: (Hindi) (end)

760619LE.TOR

Śubha Vilāsa Home Engagement

Toronto, June 19, 1976

Prabhupāda: Who will talk? You can speak.

Satsvarūpa: So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubha Vilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said, "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church. So Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubha Vilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple.

So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. And Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there… That anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions… Because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo-divyam [SB 5.5.1], going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before is us the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: You can….

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals-simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13], that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency-is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties… Just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying, "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: [SB 7.5.31] the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities.

So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there… The animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa, you can.

Jagadīśa:

oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]

In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām. There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā…

Prabhupāda: Duṣkṛtina.

Hari-śauri: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.

Jagadīśa: What's the first?

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

Those who are mūḍha, foolish, grossly foolish, those who are narādhama, those who are lowest of mankind. Those who are māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion. Those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord.

The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8], that "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal. Jīva-śakti. And that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world-to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home back to Godhead.

So within human society… This is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram. They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing… I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the…, or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa-without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta, what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to…, just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord.

The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma, no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali when the human society is so degraded, that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society.

So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara sahib only?

Indian man: Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture?

This is Indian culture, they should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara sahib? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara sahibs. That they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So is there any other outsider Indian present?

Indian man: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter) Your trick. Your trademark is there.

Indian devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale…

Devotee: (indistinct) They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now and he's staying at the temple.

Prabhupāda: So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, (Hindi).

Indian man (1): This is a very good question. (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that?

Indian man (1): No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming.

Prabhupāda: What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest?

Indian man (1): I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto.

Prabhupāda: Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come?

Indian man (1): Maybe it's catching up now

Prabhupāda: Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested.

Indian man (1): (Hindi) discrimination may be (Hindi) the society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know…

Prabhupāda: Ridicule?

Indian man (1): The method may be, they may think maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept.

Prabhupāda: No, strong, (Hindi) Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (2): Many of them think we're fanatical Western countries.

Prabhupāda: Many? (Hindi)

Devotee (2): I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea.

Prabhupāda: So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some.

Indian man (1): I think they are too much in māyā. (laughter)

Indian man (2): They want to be Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves.

Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that.

Indian man (1): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in material world.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. (Hindi) Hindu society.

Indian man (1): There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be any section. There are two section: demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra. Dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca [Bg. 16.6]. There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura. Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice, but that will not help them.

Indian man (1): Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate…

Prabhupāda: So anyway, now it is Śubha Vilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays…

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari-nāma karo (Hindi). So, another kīrtana? (end)

760706AD.WDC

Tenth Anniversary Address

Washington, D.C., July 6, 1976

Rūpānuga: In July 1966, Śrīla Prabhupāda in New York City formed the International Society for Krishna Consciousness Incorporated. Śrīla Prabhupāda mentioned this morning he was asked to call it the "International Society for God Consciousness," but he did not take that advice. He stuck to the principles of his Guru Mahārāja and called our Society an International Society for Krishna Consciousness. At that time His Divine Grace outlined the purposes for the Society. We want to read them tonight to show that actually they have all come true. And on this tenth anniversary, all the purposes of our Society actually are being fulfilled or already have been. The first one was to systematically propagate spiritual knowledge to society at large, to educate all people in the techniques of spiritual life in order to check the imbalance of (indistinct) to achieve real unity and peace in the world. Second, to propagate a consciousness of Kṛṣṇa as He is revealed in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Third, to bring the members of the Society together with each other and nearer to Kṛṣṇa, and thus to develop the idea within the members and humanity at large that each soul is part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Fourth, to teach and encourage the saṅkīrtana movement, congregational chanting of the holy name of God, and to reveal the teachings of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Fifth, to erect for the members and the Society at large a holy place of transcendental pastimes dedicated to the Personality of Godhead. Sixth, to bring the members closer together for the purpose of teaching a simpler and more natural way of life. With a view towards achieving the aforementioned purposes, to publish and distribute periodicals, magazines, books, and other (indistinct).

So we can see that actually Śrīla Prabhupāda has in almost a hundred centers and āśramas throughout the world, this has been established in less than ten years. One gentleman recently was saying, one respectable gentleman was saying, "I do not see how this society has spread all over the world (indistinct)." And I explained to him what we have done already has been in ten years. Just imagine twenty, thirty, forty years, like that. He was so surprised to see that actually in ten years alone all this has been accomplished. And revealing Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct) Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda's books are now printed in almost fifteen languages around the world and distributed in millions every year. The United States and Europe, South America and Africa, the Mediterranean, every country in the world is now benedicted by Śrīla Prabhupāda's translations. So that purpose he has kept. "To bring the members of the Society closer together in (indistinct) …society based on love and trust." (indistinct) …past bad activities and bad habits we have actually become more and more trusting between ourselves because we have banded together to help Śrīla Prabhupāda push this movement. We have to base our relationships with each other on love and trust; otherwise this would never happen. I've seen personally so many people gathered together under one roof who would never speak to each other in the material world, who would never even see each other, who would never (indistinct). But in Kṛṣṇa consciousness all these things are forgotten because there's a common denominator, Kṛṣṇa, and everyone's (indistinct) together in love and trust.

"To teach and encourage saṅkīrtana." There's hardly a person who travels anywhere who hasn't seen saṅkīrtana in every major city in the Western world. And now they're in India, now in Africa. People see us everywhere. One time a boy said to me… I asked him, "How many devotees do you think, full-time devotees, do you think we have?" (indistinct) "All right. Two million?" (indistinct) …barely a thousand at that time, but because of their energy, because Śrīla Prabhupāda's energy is (indistinct) all his disciples, it appears that there are millions. Because people see us all over the world. Actually we are simply distributing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books. (rest of Rūpānuga's speech is indistinct, followed by another speech, also indistinct.)

Prabhupāda:

oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī gurave namaḥ

[I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.]

śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭaṁ

sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale

svayaṁ rūpaḥ kadā mahyaṁ

dadāti sva-padāntikam

[When will Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī Prabhupāda, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Lord Caitanya, give me shelter under his lotus feet?]

This movement is śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhīṣṭam. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared on this earth five thousand years ago in Bengal, Navadvīpa, to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, although this movement is not new. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was started by Kṛṣṇa Himself. Apparently the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was started by Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra five thousand years ago, and He said that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement I spoke to the sun-god long, long years ago." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. This is avyaya. Avyaya means which is never diminished or destroyed. Vyaya means which is destroyed, and Kṛṣṇa says this yoga system… This is yoga system: bhakti-yoga. Yoga means to connect, to add, yoga. So at the present moment we are almost disconnected. Not exactly disconnected; forgotten our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. God means Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa means God. So in the human society there are many different types of yoga system just to reconnect our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad-gītā they are explained differently, karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, bhakti-yoga. All of them are yogas, but there are different stages. Yoga means to connect or to link up with the Supreme Absolute Truth. Now suppose he is in the topmost platform. So everyone is trying to go there. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, "Everyone is trying to come to Me, but…" Just like the person who's on the top floor. So the staircase is one. Somebody has crossed ten steps; somebody has taken, crossed twenty steps; somebody has crossed hundred steps; but one has to go, to fulfill, say, one thousand steps. There are different yoga systems. Everyone is trying to go to the topmost platform, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. This is a fact.

So in the Kali-yuga especially, to come to the highest platform of yoga perfection step by step, it is little difficult. Actually, to practice yoga, one has to undergo so many austerities, penances, rules, regulations. That is all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, how yoga should be practiced. It is recommended that yogis should sit down in a secluded place, sacred place. So in India, still, those who are actually yogis, at least those who are trying to follow the yoga system… Real yoga system means dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginaḥ, those who are yogis, they sit down in a secluded place, alone. The yoga practice is not possible in a fashionable city. That is not possible. It is to be executed alone. Still you'll find in India, many places-Hardwar-there are many yogis, they are sitting alone. They have nothing to do with this material world, and dhyānāvasthita, and not only for one, two, three years, but for many hundred years. Still many yogis come during Kumbhamelā. Their age is three hundred years, four hundred years, five hundred years old. It is possible. It is possible. By exercising the breathing, one can prolong his life. That is called samādhi. If you can stop your breathing, then you enhance your duration of life. That is possible. Therefore you'll find the picture of the yogis, they are controlling the breathing. Because everyone has got a destined breathing period by superior arrangement. So if you don't spend your breathing, then you prolong your life. If you can remain in samādhi, don't breathe, then… Just like if you have got a bank balance, one thousand dollars. If you don't spend it, then the one thousand dollar is there. Or out of one thousand dollars, you spend one. Still you have nine hundred ninety-nine. So the yoga practice is to control the breathing period. And this breathing can be controlled if you can control your sense pleasure. Otherwise it will not be possible. Especially sex. Everyone has got experience. While sex life one enjoys, the breathing is very heavy. Very, very heavy. So he loses the balance of his breathing period. Therefore the first practice of yoga is yoga indriya saṁyamaḥ, to control the senses. That is all described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Sixth Chapter.

So this yoga system was possible in the Satya-yuga, I mean to say, possible for the mass of people. If one or two persons practices yoga, the practice is there, the system is there, but it is not possible for the general public. It is not possible. So in the śāstra we find, kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuḥ [SB 12.3.52]. Real yoga system, I've already explained, that yoga indriya saṁyamaḥ, or by meditation to see the Supreme Lord always within the heart. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. In trance, you'll find yogi picture, their trance, they are in meditation, completely silent, stop breathing and seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu, within the heart. This is actual yoga system. But it was possible to be executed in the Satya-yuga. Satya-yuga means when people used to live for one hundred thousands of years. That was possible. Just like Vālmīki Muni. He executed yoga system for sixty thousand years. Because he was to live for one hundred thousands of years, so it was not very difficult to engage oneself for sixty thousands of years. But that is not possible in this age. Therefore śāstra says,

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ

tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ

dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ

kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

[SB 12.3.52]

Kalau, in this Kali-yuga, when people are very, very fallen… Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. They are very unfortunate also, and manda-bhāgyā, and although unfortunate, they are disturbed by so many external factors. So it is very difficult to execute yoga system or yajña system, sacrifice. It is very costly affair. Or even arcana, temple worship, it is also very difficult, because people are not very much interested even, worshiping the Deity in the temple. In India there are thousands and thousands of temples, temple or mosque or church, at the same time, for offering prayers, obeisances to the Lord. People are losing interest in that arcana-mārga. There are many temples I have seen, there is no caretaker. People are losing interest. Many temples. They are open; a dog is living within the temple and passing stool. I have seen it.

So people are gradually losing interest in temple worship even, what to speak of yoga or offering sacrifices. Everything is now finished. Therefore kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt. This is prescribed in the śāstra. That system was introduced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because other system will not be successful in this age. May be successful in one or two cases, but not for the general mass of people. Therefore śāstra recommends… There are different incarnation of God, but one incarnation is there, it is mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other places also, in Upaniṣad and Mahābhārata. These are approved Vedic scriptures. So the Vedic knowledge is summarized in the Vedānta system, Brahma-sūtra, everything done by Vyāsadeva. And in order to protect the sanctity of Vedānta… Because there are so many foolish persons, they are distorting the purpose of Vedānta-sūtra; therefore Vyāsadeva, under the instruction of his spiritual master Nārada, he personally wrote a commentary on the Vedānta-sūtra. This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu introduced these two things-saṅkīrtana and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam means the expansion of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, at the last stage, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also begins from that point. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam gives introduction, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. All cheating type of religious system kicked out, projjhita. Projjhita means just like you sweep over the floor, and all the dust, you throw it away. That is called projjhita. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa ujjhita.

So this system, one system, to accept the real principles of religion. That is, Kṛṣṇa also explained. It is explained by Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa came, appeared. Why? What is the purpose of Kṛṣṇa's appearing? Sometimes they argue, atheist class of men, that God cannot come. Why God cannot come? God is your father's servant, that He cannot come? You are ordering? If He cannot come, how He is God? God can do everything. Why you say that God cannot come? He is not under your rules and regulations. Then He is not God. God can come. God says, "Yes, I come!"

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

[Bg. 4.7]

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ

vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām

dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya

sambhavāmi yuge yuge

[Bg. 4.8]

So why God cannot come? So when God says, "Yes, I come for this purpose. This is My mission…" Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati. What is that glānir? Glānir means discrepancies. Not, the principles of religious…, when it is not executed properly, that is called glānir. So what is dharma? A simple definition is given: dharmaṁ tu sākṣāt-bhagavat-praṇītam. Dharma means the law given by God, that's all-three words: God and His words. So if we do not know who is God, if we do not know what is His order, then we are lost. If we do not know God and if we… Just like if we do not know what is the government and if we do not know what is the order of government, then what is our position? We'll commit every step some mistake, and we shall suffer. So we must know what is dharma and… A cat, dog cannot understand dharma, but a human being is supposed to understand dharma. Lawbooks are made for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. "Keep to the left" or "Keep to the right," the signboard is there in the street. Or the red light is there, blue light is there-for whom? For the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. The cats and dogs may disobey; there is no criminality on their part because they are cats and dogs. So there is law of God, there is God. If human being does not know what is God and what is the law of God, then he's no better than the cats and dogs. He must know. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19].

So that law is being instructed by the God Himself. That is Bhagavad-gītā. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. So Kṛṣṇa did not come to establish some sectarian religious system. That is not God's system. God is for everyone. God is not for the Hindus, for the Muslims, for the Christians, or anyone. God is for everyone. He is for animals, trees, plants, aquatics, insects, everyone. Because He claims, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

[Bg. 14.4]

Kṛṣṇa is claiming. Actually, that is the fact. If you study only this verse, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ. There are so many forms of life, beginning from grass. That is also life. The grass is coming from the earth, the trees are coming from the earth, the animals, four-legged animals, they are eating grass, they are forming semina, they are discharging the semina, and the animal species of life are coming. We are eating, either eating the animal or the vegetable, we are also begetting children. The origin is from the earth. Tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir. Mahat-tattva. So we can see practically that these things are there, so many different varieties of life. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ. They are all living entities. Aquatics, nine hundred thousand forms of life within the water, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, everything accurate. Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, the trees, plants, they are standing, sthavara. That is very great punishment. Those who are very, very sinful, they have to take birth as trees and plants and stand up for thousands of years. Material nature's punishment. A small ant, it can move, but a big tree cannot move. That is punishment. Just like in our childhood we were being punished by the teachers, "Stand up on the bench." So it is like that.

So in this way Kṛṣṇa, or God… If you simply study this line, that so many living entities are coming out of the earth, either water or land or air or anything. They are coming out. So they are offspring and material nature is the mother, Kṛṣṇa says that. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ, tāsāṁ mahad yonir-mahat-tattva [Bg. 14.4]. Yoni, mother. So where is the father? The children are there, the mother is there, the next inquiry should be, "Where is the father?" That is natural. Without father, the mother is sitting with the child, nobody can say the child has no father. If somebody says that "I do not see the father. How I can believe?" that is foolishness. You believe or not believe, you see or not see, there must be father. This is the conclusion. This is theory, that this world is going on, everything is coming out of the mother earth, then there must be father. And that father is present, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the father."

So it is our misfortune that we do not recognize the father. So it may be, "How can I recognize my father?" Ask you mother. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. All Vedic literature will say, "Here is father." Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28].

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

So we'll find in every Vedic literature, Kṛṣṇa is the supreme father. When Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gītā, in the Tenth Chapter you will find, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. And he also confirmed that "I am accepting You like this, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. So people may be in doubt because I am Your friend. So they may say, 'Out of friendship, regard or affection, out of sentiment, he is speaking like that, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme person, paraṁ brahma.' " But Arjuna immediately rectifies this impression, that "Not only myself, but great authorities like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, they are also affirming." Vyāsadeva is authority. Veda-vyāsa, he is the giver of Vedic knowledge. So he is accepting. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam he is writing, ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. He has given description of the incarnation of God, then he concludes that "All these incarnations, they are part and parcel or plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the name which I have mentioned as Kṛṣṇa, that Godhead, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam, He is the Supreme Original Personality of Godhead." That is Vyāsadeva's… So we have to accept. And Arjuna also says, svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me, "You are also personally speaking that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], 'There is no more superior authority than Me.' " So this is confirmed.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to find out the supreme father. Supreme father. That is the sum and substance of this movement. If we do not know who is our father, that is not a very good position. At least, in India, it is a custom, if somebody cannot say his father's name, he is not very respectable. And it is the system in the court that you write your name, you must write your father's name. That is Indian, Vedic system, and the name, his own name, his father's name and his village name. These three combined together. I think this system may be prevalent in other countries, but India, this is the system. The first name his own name, the second name his father's name, and the third name is the village or the country where he is born. This is system. So father's…, we must know the father. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If we remain forgetful of our father, that is not a very good position. And what kind of father? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. The richest. Not the poor father who cannot feed his children. It is not that father. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That father is so rich that He alone is feeding millions and millions and trillions of living entities. In Africa there are hundreds and millions of elephants. He is feeding them. And within the room there is a hole, there may be millions of ants. He is also feeding them. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). These are the Vedic information.

So human life, this is meant for understanding who is father, what is His law, who is God, what is our relationship with Him. This is Vedānta. Vedānta does not mean talk some nonsense and no relationship with the father. Śrama eva hi kevalam. If you do not know who is your father…

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

[SB 1.2.8]

This is not wanted. And Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. So you become Vedantist, that's very nice. In the beginning of Vedānta it is said that the Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is beginning. Now the human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth, jijñāsā. One should inquire what is the Absolute. That is human life, to find out the Absolute Truth. So the next sūtra immediately says that Absolute Truth is that who is the source of everything. And what is that everything? Two things we find: animate and inanimate. Practical experience. Some of them are animate and some of them are inanimate. Two things. Now we can expand the varieties. That is another thing. But two things are there. So these two things, we see there is a controller above these two things, the animate and inanimate. So we have to inquire now whether the source of two things, animate and inanimate, what is the position? The position is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The original source of everything is abhijñaḥ. How? Anvayād itarataś cārtheṣu. If I have created something, I know everything, all details, anvayād, directly or indirectly, I know. If I manufacture something… Suppose if I know some special cooking, then I know all the details how to do it. That is the origin. So that origin is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni: [Bg. 7.26] "I know everything-past, present and future." Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. According to creation theory… Not theory, fact. Brahmā viṣṇu maheśvara. So these are the principle devatās. So Viṣṇu is the original. Aham ādir hi devānām. The creation, first Mahā-Viṣṇu; then from Mahā-Viṣṇu there is Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. From Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu there is Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, expansion of Viṣṇu, and from Him, Brahmā comes. Brahmā is born out of Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu on the lotus flower, then he gives birth to Rudra. This is the explanation of creation. So Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām. He's also origin of Viṣṇu because, from the śāstra we say, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The original Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. And the first expansion of Kṛṣṇa is Baladeva. Then from Him this Catur-vyūha, Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha, like that. Then Nārāyaṇa. From Nārāyaṇa, the second Catur-vyūha, and from the second Catur-vyūha, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Mahā-Viṣṇu. In this way you have to learn the śāstras. You'll find that actually, as it is said in the śāstra, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. And Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. And Arjuna accepts, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So we have to accept śāstra. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt: you have to see through the śāstra. And if you learn śāstra, then you'll find kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to present to the human society the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So we started this movement in 1966, registering it. Our Rūpānuga Prabhu has already explained. So take this movement very seriously. The same, Kṛṣṇa, started within the historical, five thousand years ago. And He started this movement with Arjuna as His disciple. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago, He revived again the same movement. He is Kṛṣṇa Himself. And that is going on. Don't think that this is a manufactured movement. No. It is the authorized movement and confirmed by the authorities. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. There are mahājanas mentioned in the śāstra. So be fixed up in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. We have got so many literatures, authorized literatures. And make your life success.

Thank you very much. (end)

760725L2.LON

Lecture Excerpt

London, July 25, 1976

Prabhupāda: …Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So not only now, always. Long, long, millions of years ago there was Hiraṇyakaśipu. There was Vena Mahārāja and… Hiraṇyakaśipu was against his son. And Kaṁsa was against Kṛṣṇa. Śiśupāla was against Kṛṣṇa also. So against Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in this age, there will be many, undoubtedly. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given us instruction, tṛṇād api sunīcena. You should always expect some obstruction by the demonic party. That is not very astonishing. But still, we have to do our business and… [break] …be tolerant. Be humble. Be tolerant. Don't be agitated. Then your business will suffer. This is māyā's kingdom. The test is always there. Combating is always there, and māyā's party is very strong.

Especially at the present moment, Kali-yuga, the atheistic persons are almost everyone. They have been described as mandāḥ. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā [SB 1.1.10]. By becoming manda… Manda means bad, very bad. In Bengali there are two words, bhāga, manda, good and bad. So the manda, this word, has come from manda, Sanskrit word. So not this… The general people, all manda-short-living, wretched, unfortunate, misguided. So mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā. They are not fortunate. Mostly they are wretched. You'll find on the street so many wretched. So this is the position of the Kali-yuga. And they are not living also very many days. Still, they are against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the position. They are suffering, but still, they are… Dog's obstinacy. This is the position.

So still, we have to do our business. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that "Be humbler than the grass." The grass, we are trampling over the grass; there is no protest-"All right, go on." And tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣ… And trees, very tolerant. You cut the tree, it will not protest. So you take fruits, flowers from the tree. Take all advantages and again cut. Just like they are taking last drop of milk from the cow and after exacting everything, then send to the slaughterhouse. So the whole world is engaged in sinful activities. You cannot expect from them any concession for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Therefore we have to become humbler, tolerant, because real Kṛṣṇa consciousness means good-bye to this material world. We are no more interested with your, these big, big street, big, big buses or anything, whatever you think that is improvement, advancement.

So Kṛṣṇa conscious person are no more interested. Why not interested? They are disgusted. Why disgusted? No, because it is full of danger. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58]. Here everything appears to be very nice, but every step there is danger. So the Kṛṣṇa conscious person knows it, that although it is decorated very nicely. The New York is a big city. Twenty-four hours, "dungdungdungdungdungdung-guggugguggugguggug"-fire, always fire. Every minute there is a fire case. Saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's description of this material world as blazing fire… We see big, big cities in America, always in blazing fire. Still, they like this kind of life. But one who is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are no more interested, no more interested. They are interested back home, back to Godhead. Back to Godhead. Therefore our magazine is Back to Godhead. They are no more interested in front. They are going back to… (laughter) Therefore this name was given, Back to Godhead. They are trying: "No more we are so foolish. To go forward, material civilization…" And where you'll go? You are packed up within this universal atmosphere. Just like they are running for the moon planet, for the Mars planet. And where the rascals running, they'll come back.

Long, long ago, when Rabindranath Tagore came here, so when he saw that people are running, so he wrote one poetry, "Where these people are running? This country is very small, all around seas, so where they will go, running? They'll fall down." So our running has no meaning. It is dog's running. But people are still busy, trying to go here, there. But we are conditioned souls, baddha-jīva, bound up by the laws of nature. We cannot surpass, but still, we are thinking we are advancing, we are going forward. So we can go forward, up to the limit of this universe, Brahmaloka, but ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]-again you have to come back. You are not free. Those who are free, liberated, so they go beyond this universe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20], yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. So people have no information, no education, no culture. They are put into the darkness and working so hard without knowing what is going to happen next. A civilization of complete darkness, very dangerous. Next life they do not believe, because if they believe, then they are horrible. "Better not to believe. Close your eyes. Don't see what is the danger in front." It is like that.

So those who by fortune have come in contact of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, so they are supposed to be intelligent. So try to understand the whole situation, the whole universal position, very minutely, that this material world is very, very, very dangerous for you. You may believe or not believe. Nature's work will go on. Nature doesn't care for your belief or not belief. What you are? So don't be foolish, mūḍha, narādhama, because one who does not take care of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have been described as duṣkṛtino mūḍhā narādhamāḥ. Not very good certificate. So be sober, stick to the principles, read the books carefully, learn more and more about the whole situation, and as far as possible, live conveniently. But if there is inconvenience, don't be discouraged. Don't be discouraged. Therefore this verse was written by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. But don't be discouraged. So I'm sure you'll not be discouraged. Kṛṣṇa will provide another good house if they are persistent to drive away.

So Kṛṣṇa is providing another good house, so there is no discouragement. But go on executing your routine work. I am very glad to see that you are taking care of the Deities very nicely. Whenever I come, I see. This is very encouraging. And the more you keep the Deity very nicely decorated, then your heart will be cleansed of all dirty things of this material world. Tṛṇād api… Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is wanted. And if we keep our core of heart cleansed from material dirty thing, then māyā will not be able to overcome us. So keep in that spirit. Never mind if sometimes, occasionally, there is some difficulty. We have got examples of devotees. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, Prahlāda Mahārāja had to face so many difficulties. They didn't care. So God consciousness means you have to face difficulty but you should not be discouraged. You must go on with your business, and then success is sure. There is a verse in this connection. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam [SB 10.14.8]. When there is difficulty a devotee thinks, "It is a good fortune that Kṛṣṇa has given us some difficulty to counteract my previous bad action." So in this way, if we live, then mukti-pade sa dāya-bhāk. If one is not opposed by all these difficulties and with determination he goes forward, then for him going back home, back to Godhead, is guaranteed. Dāya-bhāk. Dāya-bhāk means it is hereditary or herent. Eh? What is called?

Devotees: Inherited.

Prabhupāda: Inherited, yes. So just like father's property the son gets-there is no law to check it-similarly those who are humbly, tolerantly going on with Kṛṣṇa consciousness with full determination, for them going back to home, back to Godhead, is guaranteed. Nobody can check. So our business is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. If there is some difficulty you should tolerate and go on with our business.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

760725LE.LON

Sunday Feast Lecture

London, July 25, 1976

Prabhupāda: Somebody fanning, and water also. (chants maṅgalacaraṇa prayers) So śrī-caitanya-mano-'bhiṣṭam. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's ambition or mission. Śrī-caitanya-mahāprabhu mano 'bhiṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale. His ambition was propagated or established by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī. They were ministers in charge of the then Pathan government in Bengal and very learned scholar in Urdu and Sanskrit, but after meeting Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu at Rāmakeli village in the district of Maldah in Bengal, North Bengal… That was supposed to be the capital of Nawab Hussain Shah. So then they joined to preach this saṅkīrtana movement or Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So their mission was to establish the Rādhā-Govinda Mandir, as many as possible. They first started in Vṛndāvana, Madana-mohana temple. Most Indians present here, they know. There are… [break] …temples in Vṛndāvana. There are five thousand temples in one small city of fifty thousand population, but the most important because they were established by the Gosvāmīs. Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha, the Six Gosvāmīs, direct disciple of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Sanātana Gosvāmī established first the Madana-mohana temple. Then Rūpa Gosvāmī established Govindajī's temple. Then Jīva Gosvāmī established Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, then… [break] …Gosvāmī established Rādhā-Madana-mohana temple. Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī, he established Śyāmasundara temple. These are important temples.

So this mission, one of the items is to establish temples, as many temples as possible, especially Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temples. So by the grace of the Lord… In London there was no Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. Now we have… (indistinct) …and not that these temples are being worshiped by any Hindus or Indians, but all sorts of people. There is no distinction. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is this. Yei bhaje sei baḍa, abhakta hīna chāra [Cc. Antya 4.67]. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, yei bhaje, who is engaged in devotional service of Lord Kṛṣṇa, yei bhaje se baḍa, he is big. Our calculation of big, small, not by the caste system. Yei bhaje: "Anyone who worships or who is engaged in devotional service of the Lord…" There is no particularly any person or any society or any caste or any nation is said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yei bhaje se baḍa. Yei bhaje sei baḍa, abhakta hīna chāra. And one who is not a devotee, he is the lowest and abominable.

yei bhaje se baḍa bhakta hīna chāra

kṛṣṇa bhajanete nāhi jāti kulādi vicāra

[Cc. Antya 4.67]

So far Kṛṣṇa bhajana is concerned, there is no such distinction of caste, creed, nation, religion, no. Everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's word, and Kṛṣṇa's personal words are, in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ hi pārtha 'vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. People are generally against the mlecchas, yavanas or the caṇḍālas because according to Vedic system, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriya, they are supposed to be pious family, brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas. Less than that, even woman, they are not so pious. So in that sense there is discrimination. But Kṛṣṇa says that māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Anyone, it doesn't matter, even he belongs to the pāpa-yoni, low-grade family. And because women and vaiśyas are śūdras are also considered as less important, so Kṛṣṇa mentions, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "Even women, śūdras, or the vaiśyas, everyone can be elevated to the higher transcendental platform, parāṁ gati." Parāṁ gati. Gati means advancement, stepping forward, gati. So everyone is given this advantage of stepping forward. Stepping forward… (aside:) …is it finished or not? Eh?

Indian man: Just they're offering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Stepping forward, there are two ways, stepping forward, gatiḥ. One way, go to hell, and another way, go to Kṛṣṇa, stepping forward. So who is going to back to home, back to Godhead, and who is going to hell? There are two ways. I think the Christians also believe like that: either go to heaven or go to hell. Actually, there are two ways, stepping forward. So here Kṛṣṇa says, the greatest authority, that

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

[Bg. 9.32]

This step forward means going back home, back to Godhead. And another stepping forward there is.

matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā

mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām

adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ

punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām

[SB 7.5.30]

Another, this process, is those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious… Matir na kṛṣṇe. Their consciousness is not for Kṛṣṇa. Matir na kṛṣṇe. Why they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious? They cannot be? No, they cannot be. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā, by personal deliberation or by congregation deliberation, svato mitho, matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ, or by the instruction of the spiritual master. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām.

Gṛha-vratānām. Gṛha, there are different meanings of gṛha. Especially gṛha, we mean the home, house. Gṛha-vrata and gṛhastha, they are two different. Gṛhastha means although he is in gṛha, household life, his purpose is to go back to home, back to Godhead. They are called gṛhastha. And whose only purpose is to live at home-decorate the home, decorate the wife, decorate the children and make money to live very comfortably-they are called gṛha-vrata or gṛhamedhi. They are not gṛhastha. Gṛhastha means although he's living with wife, children, family, but his purpose is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, how to go back home, back. They are called gṛhastha. So gṛhasthāśrama is as good as other āśramas. There are four āśramas. Vedic civilization means four varṇas and four āśramas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So those who are not following this principle of varṇāśrama-dharma, living like cats and dogs, they also live with wife, children. That sort of living is called gṛha-vrata. Gṛha-vratānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe: "They cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious." Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why? Now, adānta-gobhiḥ. Go means senses. Go means cow. Go means land also. So anyone who has taken the vow of sense gratification… That is the modern world, that "Somehow or other, satisfy senses." They cannot control the senses. Adānta-go. Adānta. Dānta means control. Adānta, not controlled. Adānta-gobhiḥ. So what is that? Viśatāṁ tamisram: "They are going towards hell," because this sense gratification process, unrestricted sense gratification process, he is creating a situation of different mentality and that mentality will be prominent at the time of death, and according to that situation he'll get his next birth.

Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Therefore we have to become very, very careful. This life I maybe born in big nation, America, or English nation or some other nation or family, but if I create a mentality of cats and dogs or if I do not take advantage of this human form of life-I remain dull as the trees or the animals-then next life we have to accept a similar body. This is the law of nature. You can say or I can say that "I do not believe in the next life," but that is not the fact. The fact is… Just like if a child says, "I do not believe the next stage or next life, to become a boy," or if a boy says that "I don't believe next stage, to become a young man," so a young man says, "I do not believe that I shall become an old man," that is concoction. The nature's law will drag him, one after another. Similarly, the old man's body, when it is finished, you'll have to accept another body according to your mentality at the time of death. This is the law of nature.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the best welfare activities for the human society to save them from a dangerous type of life. It is a very scientific movement. The fools and rascals, they do not know that there is next life and one has to accept a type of body given by nature. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor deha upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. According to karma, the nature… Just like if you infect some disease without any knowledge, so that disease, infection, will develop. If you have infected the small pox germ, then it will develop. You may believe or not believe or you may know or not know. It doesn't matter. Nature's way is like that. Similarly, we are contaminating within this material world different infection of the modes of material nature-sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad yoni janmasu. One is getting higher type of birth, one is getting lower type of birth, why? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya: [Bg. 13.22] the cause is different contamination of the material modes of nature. Therefore in human form of life we should not be irresponsible animals. The animals, they do not know what he is contaminating, what he is going to take birth next. That is nature's way. But when you come to the human form of life, you have got your discrimination. You have to make your choice whether you are going to hell or you are going back to home, back to Godhead. That you have to make your choice.

If you don't make your choice, if you miss this opportunity, then you are committing suicide. You are knowingly drinking poison. As Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu: "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, I have wasted my time without any meaning, without any good result." Why? No, manuṣya-janama pāiyā rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu: "I got this human form of life. It was an opportunity to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but I did not do it. I simply wasted my time in sense gratification. This means knowingly I have drunk poison." So anyone can drink poison if he likes. Nobody can check. But it is a fact that if one does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious in this human form of life, he is drinking poison knowingly. That's a fact.

So people should be very careful, take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a blind, sentimental religious faith. It is a great science, vijñānam. Jñānaṁ me parama-guhyaṁ yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ pravakṣyāmi yad vijñāna-samanvitam. These are the words. It is vijñāna, a great science. Don't think that "These people are sentimentally chanting and dancing." That is the process, very easy made for this age. But if you think yourself that you are a great scientist, great philosopher, then we have got eighty-four books of four hundred pages. If you have got actually learning, you can study them. We can convince you. And people are becoming convinced. We are selling books all over the world, daily, sixty thousand dollars' worth. People are receiving, and they are appreciating. We have got big, big learned scholars' opinion.

So the idea is that you must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise you are drinking poison knowingly. Anyone, it doesn't matter what you are. Either you are Indian or Englishman or American or Hindu or Muslim, it doesn't matter. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. I may say, "Kṛṣṇa;" you may say some other name. But this human form of life is meant for this purpose, to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God. Not vague idea, clear idea what is God, how he looks, what does he do-so many things we have to know. It is not vague idea. Simply to have a vague idea of God, that is also good, but that is not perfect. You must know that is God. So how you can know God? The God is explaining Himself, coming down for your benefit. That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, "I am like this. You see Me. You know Me. I am explaining Myself." And still, if we do not take advantage of understanding God, then just imagine how we are drinking poison knowingly. How rascal we are, that God Himself is explaining before me everything about Him, and we are not taking advantage of this opportunity, and I am thinking I am independent and… This is rascaldom. You are not independent. You are completely under the control of the laws of material nature. How you are independent? So this foolishness must be stopped. That is the purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't remain rascals fools. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be happy.

Thank you very much.

Indian man: (indistinct) …praising anyone that can perform even, praying to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the fundamental is the four things. Please explain.

Devotee: He's talking about the four principles which are compulsory to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because we are now dull brain. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is described as rascal.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

This is Kṛṣṇa's words, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be in one of these groups. What are the groups? Duṣkṛtinaḥ-meritorious sinful person. A person is merit. He has got merit. Just like a thief, a rogue, a cheater. He has got merit undoubtedly. Without being meritorious, they cannot be expert thief or expert rogue or expert politician. (laughter) So they have got merit, but duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit, and duṣ means abominable. Merit is being used for bad purposes or sinful purposes. They are called duṣkṛtinaḥ. This is one group. Another group-mūḍha. Mūḍha means fools, rascals, or children, those who have no knowledge or one who does not know what is the purpose of life. They are called mūḍhas. And another group is called narādhamāḥ. Naradhāma means the lowest of the mankind. The highest of the mankind is one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, and the lowest, one who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the lowest of the mankind. This human life, human form of life was given to him by laws of nature to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, but he's not using it. Misusing it. They are called narādhama. And then, next group is māyayāpahṛta jñāna. You can say, "There are so many learned persons. They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. They are after drinking and eating meat and… They are education." So then, He says that "They are educated. They have so-called educated, but their real knowledge is taken away." Just like one is rich man, but his money is taken away. So these four groups… So why this meritorious person or educated person, they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? That means dull brain. So in order to make the dull brain suitable for understanding Kṛṣṇa, these four principles of austerities is the first need: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Then his brain, the finer tissues of the brain, will develop to understand Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, not possible.

Devotee: There's one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Indian woman: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Pitar, what is this pitar?

Indian man: Forefathers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there are different processes. (Hindi)

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

[Bg. 9.25]

(Hindi) (end)

760802LE.NMR

Lecture Excerpt

August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

Prabhupāda: …apratihatā yenātmā samprasīdati. Yena-ātmā samprasīdati. If you want to please yourself… Everyone is trying to please himself, but here is the formula: yenātmā samprasīdati. Ātmā means soul, the Supersoul, the mind and the body also. According to the different position, the ātmā is accepted in different angles of vision. But on the whole we are searching after bodily comforts, mental peace, and satisfaction of the soul and satisfaction of the Supersoul. So this is the only process. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. If you engage yourself in devotional service, bhakti, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo… [SB 1.2.6]. And that is the topmost system of religion. There are different religious systems, different parts of the world, of the universe. But the real purpose of religion is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, how to become engaged in the service of the Lord, that is religion. And this service of the Lord cannot be checked. Ahaituky apratihatā. It is not that for certain reason one has to engage himself in devotional service. It is spontaneous. And apratihatā, without any check. Just like we are sitting down here, there is no check. Anywhere we can sit down. Of course, sometimes the climatic condition different, but there are different climates also. In India we have got almost all the year climate like this, except in the rainy season-that is also not constantly. Therefore India is supposed to be the best place for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because the climate is very suitable. So here also, now this climate. It is not conditional, but you can perform service, kīrtana, without any check. Not that we have to live in that palace, then we can chant. No. We can live, we can sit down underneath a tree and chant. There is no limit. We can go on. So we have to adjust things in such a way that without any condition, without any check, we can go on with our devotional service. Just like we can sit down here or anywhere. Here is the opportunity. This land is very good. You can sit down anywhere and chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. There is no need of chair or cushion or nothing else. Ahaituky apratihatā. Any condition. And yenātmā samprasīdati, that will please your everything-your heart, your mind, your body, your soul, everything. Yenātmā samprasīdati. This is the easiest method for achieving the highest perfection of life. So go on with this process without any check and be happy.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! (end)

760816SP.HYD

Excerpt of Speech at Fire Yajña

with South Indian Brāhmaṇas

Hyderabad, August 16, 1976

Prabhupāda: …down to the Sutala planet. And by accepting the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead… The Lord questioned Śukrācārya, "What was the discrepancy in the performance of yajña arranged by Bali Mahārāja that you cursed him?" Of course, he did not ask that "you cursed him," but it was understood. Śukrācārya admitted that there was no fault. This is the verse. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped, there is no discrepancy. In the Kali-yuga it is said in the śāstras that yajña is now practically impossible; therefore it is recommended yajñair saṅkīrtanair prāyair yajanti hi [SB 11.5.32]. So we are very glad that here in southern portion of India, still there are so many respectable yajñic brāhmaṇas, and we see practically how they have nicely performed the yajñas. Now this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to spread this brahminical culture.

namo brahmaṇya-devāya

go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca

jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya

govindāya namo namaḥ

Jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya. Kṛṣṇa wants welfare of the whole universe. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. He comes personally. So we are trying to establish this brahminical culture, go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. You'll be very much pleased that in a country where go-hatyā is so prominent, now we have established so many farms in Europe and America. We shall show the pictures how we are giving protection to the cows and how we are trying to revive this brahminical culture all over the world. And they are accepting. It is not that they are rejecting. You can see the presence of so many European and American devotees here. And they are very sincere. They are not superficial. They are very sincere. Their countrymen, the priests, the Christian priests, the Jewish priests, priests, they become surprised that "These young boys, they never cared for any religion or they never cared to come to the church or the synagogue. How they have become so much interested in understanding God as to become a devotee?"

So my request is that India, especially South India… South India is the place for all the ācāryas. South India is the place of Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī. And we Gauḍīya, Mādhva-Gauḍīya sampradāya… Caitanya Mahāprabhu belongs to the Mādhavendra Purī sampradāya. Mādhavendra Purī belonged to the Madhva sampradāya; therefore our sampradāya is known as Brahmā Madhva-Gauḍīya sampradāya. So the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to establish this brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. It is lost, but we are trying to revive it. There is good sign. Not only good sign, there is prediction by the authorities, by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has predicted that all over the world, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: As many villages and towns are there on the surface of the globe, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement would be spread. So my request is that let us join together, not only in India but all over the world. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order is, kṛṣṇa bhajanati nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra. In the matter of executing devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, there is no such distinction wherefrom this man is coming, wherefrom this man is coming. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Even they are coming from the pāpa-yoni, it doesn't matter if one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness-te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. This philosophy should be followed. I especially request the ācāryas, the brāhmaṇas of South India, to take up this cause very seriously. It is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Please do not make any distinction between European Vaiṣṇava, American Vaiṣṇava and Indian Vaiṣṇava. That is my request. And let us combine together and spread this auspicious movement. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire.

bhārata bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra

[Cc. Ādi 9.41]

Anyone who has taken birth as a human being on the land of Bhārata-varṣa… He does not mean the cats and dogs; He means the human beings. Manuṣya. So in order to fulfill the mission of manuṣya-janma, we shall try to reestablish the varṇāśrama-dharma, Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58], and spread this movement all over the world. There is no charge. Let us cooperate and do the needful.

Thank you very much. (end)

761017LE.CHA

Address to Rotary Club

Chandigarh, October 17, 1976

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen, the President, I am very much thankful to you that you are eager to hear about what Kṛṣṇa wants to speak. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All ācāryas-Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu, Nimbārka, and latest, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and before that, other ācāryas like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, and before that, the original ācārya, Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva-everyone accepted Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. We are searching after whether there is God or there is no God. If there is God, what is the nature? What is the form? Whether He is person or imperson? There are so many questions. And to solve all these questions, the God Himself descends and speaks about Himself, and that speaking is this Bhagavad-gītā. God is speaking about Himself personally, personally present. So you can know Him, you can see Him, what He is, what is His function. Just to mitigate all our doubts, God is present here. And Kṛṣṇa says in the beginning of the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā how you can understand God without any doubt and in complete. That is spoken by God Himself.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

"My dear Pārtha, Arjuna, in order to know Me, God, asaṁśayam, without any doubt, and samagram," means in completeness, "as you can know Me, I am personally speaking to you." That means if you want to know God, you can know Him when He explains Himself. Otherwise, you cannot speculate. God is unlimited, and your speculative power is limited. So you cannot understand God without the mercy of God. That is the verdict of the Vedic literature. It is very easy to understand. Suppose here is a big man, rich man, learned man. You want to know about him. So you cannot understand him by speculation: "He may be of this standard. He may be like this. He may have so much money." You suggest; another friend suggests. In this way the study of that particular man is not complete. But if the same person kindly speaks and explains about himself that "Sir, I am like this." (aside:) Water. "My position is like this. I have got so much bank balance," that is the way. This is the way of understanding. It is called descending process. And there is another process, which is called ascending process. In Sanskrit it is called āroha-panthā, avaroha-panthā. Āroha-panthā… You want to go, to know about the sun planet or any other. Just like they are trying. They are trying to go there, Mars planet, Moon planet, by rising on the sky by their aeroplanes, sputniks. But they have not been able to understand what is the position of these planets. This is called āroha-panthā. But if somebody comes from the planet and explains everything, then you know it very easily. Similarly, God has come to explain Himself. You'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā.

This Bhagavad-gītā is recorded in the greater Indian history, Mahābhārata. Mahābhārata means greater India or greater Bhārata. Greater Bhārata means the whole planet was formerly Bhāratavarṣa. Now it is cut into pieces. Recently we have got experience that Pakistan was also India. Now it is cut out. Similarly, this Bhārata… Bhārata means… Bhāratavarṣa means the sapta-samudra, sapta-dvīpa. This sapta-dvīpa still accepted-the North America, South America, Asia, Africa, Australia. In this way there are sapta-dvīpa, islands. So that is Bhārata. Now it is cut off under different circumstances. And the capital was this New Delhi or Hastināpura, and the kings, emperors, were the Pāṇḍavas family. So this is the history of greater India. That is called Mahābhārata. So Mahābhārata… In the Mahābhārata this Bhagavad-gītā is set up, and the writer of Mahābhārata is Vyāsadeva himself, and therefore the recorder of the speech, what Kṛṣṇa said in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, is also Vyāsadeva. So Vyāsadeva, you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā, he says everywhere, bhagavān uvāca. He never says that "I am writing." He says, bhagavān uvāca. That you'll mark, those who have read Bhagavad-gītā. [break] …tac chṛṇu. Then you'll understand Bhagavān without any doubt and in completeness. Asaṁśayam samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. It is very easy. If you simply concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18], as Mahārāja Ambarīṣa did, and many other great personalities did it… Arjuna did. Now we are concerned with Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is speaking, and Arjuna is hearing. So what is the situation? The situation is that the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas assembled together on the great battlefield. It is not battlefield, Kurukṣetra; it is dharmakṣetra.

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

[Bg. 1.1]

This is the question by Dhṛtarāṣṭra. Dhṛtarāṣṭra was the father of the Kurus, and the Pāṇḍavas were the five brothers, the sons of the younger brother of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, Mahārāja Pāṇḍu. So Dhṛtarāṣṭra was blind, born blind. Actually he was to inherit-the eldest son of the family. But on account of his blindness the throne was given to his younger brother, Pāṇḍu. So the sons of Pāṇḍu is known as Pāṇḍavas, and the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra are known as Kurus or Dhṛtarāṣṭra. So after all, politics, it is always very intriguing in all times. So Dhṛtarāṣṭra was very sorry that he could not become the emperor. At least his son should be. Because he was blind, that's all, but his sons were not blind. So naturally father wants… So this is the whole history of Mahābhārata, intriguing, politics, and ultimately there was fight between the two parties, Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, to decide. By logic, by morality and other things, everything failed. Then there was declaration of war. The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in that warfield.

Kṛṣṇa was engaged as the chariot driver of the chariot of Arjuna. And while the chariot was brought in the battlefield between the two groups of soldiers… Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta [Bg. 1.21]. Arjuna requested, "My dear Kṛṣṇa…" Kṛṣṇa was his friend and Kṛṣṇa was familywise related both with the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. Kṛṣṇa's father and the Pāṇḍavas' mother, they were real brother and sister. In this way there were family relationship, and Kṛṣṇa therefore denied to take part in the actual fighting. The whole world was divided. Some of them joined this party; some of them joined that party. Just like it actually happens when there is big war. Even nowadays, all the nations, they make a group. Some of them forming were forming one group; another some of them, they formed another group. Exactly the same thing was done. Now Kṛṣṇa was the charioteer, but when the chariot was brought in front of the two soldiers' party, Arjuna became little bit disturbed that "I have to fight. On the other side they are my brothers, they are my nephews, they are my gurus, Dronācārya, and they are my grandfather, Bhīṣmadeva. So what kind of fight this is that I have to fight with my friends and relatives and family members?" So he hesitated, that "Kṛṣṇa, what kind of fight this is? They are not my enemies; they are all family members. So I am not interested in this fight." So he practically decided not to fight. And Kṛṣṇa said that "What is this nonsense? You are a military man, and you have come to fight here, and you are My friend and My relative also, and if you decide not to fight, what people will say?" This is the beginning. Then, after some arguments, Arjuna thought it wise that "Actually, I am a military man and I have come to fight a decision that we shall fight. Now what I am trying to do, to avoid this fighting? Actually it is not my business. I am deviating from my duty." Therefore… (aside:) Find out this, kārpaṇya-doṣa. Find out.

Pradyumna:

kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ

pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ

yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me

śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam

[Bg. 2.7]

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Pradyumna: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So Arjuna understood his weakness, his weak point. Therefore he said to Kṛṣṇa that kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ. Kārpaṇya, this word, comes from kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa… Kṛpaṇa, this word, is known practically everyone. Kṛpaṇata means miserly. A person who has got enough resources but if he does not use it properly, it is called, he is called a kṛpaṇa, miser. And the opposite word of kṛpaṇa is udhara, or liberal. So there are two words, kṛpaṇa. So Arjuna said, kārpaṇya-doṣa: "I know I can fight. I am quite competent military person, but I am not using my resources; therefore it is kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ." Svabhāvaḥ means naturally a military man, a kṣatriya, is very bold enough to fight. That is one of the qualification of a military man. Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. The śaurya, vīrya, tejaḥ, yuddhe cāpalāyanam, these are the symptoms of kṣatriya. He would never go away from fighting. When there is challenge, fighting, a kṣatriya will never deny. Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. So when kṣatriya, is especially a kṣatriya like Arjuna… He is the best military man of that age, and he was denying to fight. So he could understand his weakness. He said, kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ: [Bg. 2.7] "Naturally I should fight, but on account of my crippled decision or miserly decision, I am perplexed." So Kṛṣṇa… He knew Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. "Therefore I am surrendering unto You." What is that? Two, last lines?

Pradyumna: Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam.

Prabhupāda: Śiṣyas te 'ham. Ahaṁ te śiṣya: "I just become Your disciple, and You just educate me. Please enlighten me." This is the position. Before that, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, they were talking like friends. Friends means argument. We can go on arguing for days together, but there is no decision. That is friendly talk. But when there is talk between a master and disciple, there is no question of arguing. The disciple has to accept what is ordered by the master.

So Kṛṣṇa is accepted guru or the spiritual master, and Arjuna says, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Prapannam means that "I am surrendered to You. I don't think myself on the equal level with You." The spiritual master and the disciple, they cannot be on the equal level. Therefore a spiritual master is called guru. Guru means heavy. Just like in the scale we put something this side, something that side. The thing which is weighty, that goes down. Similarly, guru is supposed to be weighty than the śiṣya. So Kṛṣṇa begins to speak when He is accepted as guru; otherwise He does not speak. Now, our subject matter is "Let Kṛṣṇa speak for Himself." So we have to accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority. Then His speaking will be useful for us. Otherwise, if we think that Kṛṣṇa is on the equal level-"He is also a historical personality and His education and my education equal and so on, so on"-so long we think like that, then we cannot hear or understand Kṛṣṇa. But if we take the position of Arjuna-śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam-then Kṛṣṇa will speak to the disciple like Arjuna, and everything will be clear.

So the point is Bhagavad-gītā is well known all over the world. Not now… Because we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā through this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and millions of people are interested… We have got so many books, and the calculation is already submitted. They are accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement through literature, and big, big scholars, professors, librarian, they are purchasing our books very nicely. The total collection daily is five to six lakhs of rupees. So now this Kṛṣṇa movement is being appreciated all over the world. Unfortunately, although Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in this land of Bhāratavarṣa, Chandigarh, the Kurukṣetra, we do not allow Kṛṣṇa to speak. This is our misfortune. Kṛṣṇa spoke these words of Bhagavad-gītā. Many scholars, many so-called saintly persons, they have misinterpreted the words of Bhagavad-gītā. They did not allow to speak Kṛṣṇa. They wanted to speak on behalf of Kṛṣṇa… Not on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. I am sorry. They wanted to speak about themself. If one speaks on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. But if one manufactures some idea from the words of Kṛṣṇa by misinterpretation and does not allow Kṛṣṇa to speak, it is a great dangerous position. That has become actually the fact in India. Otherwise such a big culture, complete culture… From the Bhagavad-gītā, any question you can raise, the answer is there. Political, social, religious, philosophical, cultural-any way you study Bhagavad-gītā, the complete answer is there. Therefore our request is that let Kṛṣṇa speak for Himself. Don't try to misinterpret the words of Kṛṣṇa or the words in the Bhagavad-gītā. That will spoil it. Just like in the beginning it is said,

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

[Bg. 1.1]

Now this Kurukṣetra… Everyone knows there is a place Kurukṣetra. From time immemorial in the Vedic literature it is mentioned about Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetre dharmam ācaret: "Go to Kurukṣetra and perform ritualistic ceremonies there." So it is dharmakṣetra. So how you can interpret Kurukṣetra as the body? Where is that dictionary, and where is the necessity of interpreting like that? There is no necessity. Interpretation is required when the meaning is not clear. But if the meaning is clear, why should you interpret it unnecessarily? That is malinterpretation, and that is going on. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but somebody says, "He is fictitious. There was no fight like Kurukṣetra. There was no such person as Kṛṣṇa," and "Kṛṣṇa is a person from the black aborigines," so on, so on, so many interpretation. What is the benefit? The benefit is that we have lost our Vedic culture. This is the benefit.

Therefore our request is… This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is specially meant for this purpose, that do not try to be overlord of Kṛṣṇa. Don't speak anything manufactured by you on the plea of Kṛṣṇa speaking. If you want to speak something, good or nonsense, you can speak. Everyone has got the freedom to speak about his philosophy, about his thesis. But why through Kṛṣṇa? Why through Bhagavad-gītā? This is our protest. Let Kṛṣṇa speak Himself as He is and as He wants. Why should you speak by malinterpretation? That is the practice now, that everyone can interpret Bhagavad-gītā as he likes. Then where is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? Can you interpret the law given by the government in your own way? That is not possible. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa is accepted, He's accepted actually. (aside:) Find out this verse, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Tenth Chapter.

Pradyumna:

paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma

pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān

puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam

ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum

[Bg. 10.12]

āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve

devarṣir nāradas tathā

asito devalo vyāsaḥ

svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me

Prabhupāda: So… Yes. Read it.

Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."

Prabhupāda: So the student of Bhagavad-gītā, as Arjuna says, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. After hearing Bhagavad-gītā in detail, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. So one may say that "This is a friendly talk. So Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So as a friend he accepted." Because Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2].

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

So Arjuna accepted Him, "Yes, you are paraṁ brahma." Brahman and Parabrahman. We, all living entities, we are also Brahman, but we are not Parabrahman. Parabrahman is Kṛṣṇa.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Ete cāṁśa kala-puṁsāṁ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. These are the verdict of the Vedic literature. Here it is also repeated by Arjuna, that "Not that after hearing You I accept You as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Parambrahman, but formerly Asita, Nārada, Vyāsa, they also accepted it." The next verse?

Pradyumna:

sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye

yan māṁ vadasi keśava

na hi te bhagavān vyaktiṁ

vidur devā na dānavāḥ

[Bg. 10.14]

Prabhupāda: So "I accept all Your instruction." What is again? Read it.

Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14].

Prabhupāda: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye. This is actually student of Bhagavad-gītā, not that "The portion which I like, I accept, and the portion I do not like, I reject." This is nonsense. If you want to become the student of Bhagavad-gītā, if you want to derive some benefit out of it, then you should be like Arjuna, like this. He said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye: [Bg. 10.14] "Whatever You say, I accept it." Ṛtam means truth. "Not that I am accepting, but previous to me…" What is the next line?

Pradyumna: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Pradyumna: Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ.

Prabhupāda: "Because Your personality cannot be understood even by the demigods, what to speak of ordinary human being." And Kṛṣṇa has said that avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. The mūḍha, those who deride at Kṛṣṇa, that "He's an ordinary human being," such person is condemned herewith as mūḍha. Mūḍha means ass. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Because he does not know paraṁ bhāvam, what is the background of Kṛṣṇa. So similarly, there are many passages. Anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa and at the same time he declares himself as the student of Bhagavad-gītā, as a scholar of Bhagavad-gītā, he is misleading himself and misleading his followers. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā and everyone. Bhagavad-gītā has to be understood. In the Fourth Chapter you find out that,

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāhur

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

[Bg. 4.1]

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

[Bg. 4.2]

This is paramparā. The truth of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken to the sun-god, and he spoke to his son, to Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. And Vaivasvata Manu spoke to his son, Ikṣvāku. And Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Rājarṣaya. This philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā, it is meant for the rājarṣi, not for the loafer class. Rājarṣi: king, at the same time, saintly person. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Kṛṣṇa does not say that ordinary scholar or so-called philosopher can understand. Only the rājarṣayo viduḥ. So Arjuna is one of the rājarṣis. So he understood Kṛṣṇa. He says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. So we have to accept this paramparā system. If we take Bhagavad-gītā seriously then we should follow the footprints of Arjuna as he understood. He accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Paraṁbrahman. So what is spoken by Paraṁbrahman, the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Person, how we can interpret His words and squeeze out some meaning and mislead myself and mislead others? This is not good.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to rectify this mistake. Bhagavad-gītā is the most authorized scripture in the Vedic literature. Vedic literature means it is not spoken by any ordinary human being. Apaureṣaya means this literature, Vedic literature, is spoken directly by the Supreme Person or Lord. So it was instructed through Brahmā, Lord Brahmā. Tene brahma hṛda ādi-kavaye. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Oṁ namo bhāgavate vāsudevāya. These are the Vedānta philosophy's beginning. The Vedānta philosophy begins with the word athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman. The human life is not meant for any other purpose. That is the distinction between a dog's life and a human being's life. A dog cannot inquire about Brahman. That is not possible. But a human being can inquire about Brahman. Therefore this life is meant for brahma-jijñāsā about Brahman. So if we accept these aphorisms of the Vedānta-sūtra… Vedānta-sūtra is supposed to be the most authorized summary, cream of all the Vedas. So Kṛṣṇa has said in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛd ca aham [Bg. 15.15]. So if we accept these words of Kṛṣṇa, then we become actually Vedānti. Without understanding these things as spoken in the… Bhagavad-gītā is the summarized Vedānta or Vedic philosophy. Because in this age, Kali-yuga, we are not very advanced. About us, it is described in the śāstra, mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā upadrutāḥ, prāyeṇālpayuṣaḥ kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. In this age, Kali-yuga, we are living not very long time. In Kali-yuga, the duration of life will be reduced so much, gradually, that if a person lives for twenty to thirty years, he'll be considered a grand old man. That day is coming. Now we have got practical experience. Our grandfather or father lived for so many years, but we are not living for so many years. Our sons will not live so many years. In this way the duration of life, the memory, the mercifulness, the bodily strength-everything will be reduced. This is already foretold in the śāstras. So therefore in this age we are all short-living, mandāḥ, very slow or bad, and sumanda-matayo. Everyone has got a obnoxious opinion about philosophy, about the goal of life. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo, and manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate also. The description, if we try to describe, it will take long time. The short-cut description is there: mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ. At the same time, disturbed always. This material world means always disturbed condition, but in this age, Kali-yuga, the disturbance is more and more.

So under the circumstances, it is out of Kṛṣṇa's kindness that making Arjuna as a target of His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā, He has given us this valuable instruction. We should accept it as it is. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, without any malinterpretation. Take Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. You'll be benefited. And so far as brahma-jijñāsā, the Kṛṣṇa begins with this aphorism of brahma-jijñāsā. When Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa that "I am Your now disciple. There is no need of friendly talks. You can give me instruction seriously because I am surrendered to You, and You give me the real instruction," so the first instruction was, as soon as Arjuna submitted… Because unless you submit, it is useless to talk because you'll not hear. Therefore to accept an authority is submission. First thing is, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Unless you submit, if you think yourself that you are a very big scholar, very learned scholar and very good philosopher-you don't require any instruction from guru-then there is no possibility. The first thing is Kṛṣṇa instructs in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. If you want to know the substance, then the first thing is that you must be submissive, praṇipāta. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipāta. You fall down. Therefore the system is: the disciple falls flat before the spiritual master. That is the etiquette, praṇipātena. And if you think that you know better than Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative, the guru, there is no necessity of accepting guru. Do not keep a guru as a pet dog. No. You must be submissive. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. This is wanted. That Kṛṣṇa… That is the example given by Arjuna. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. This prapannam is required.

So when Arjuna submitted, then Kṛṣṇa spoke. The first speaking was that,

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

[Bg. 2.11]

"Arjuna, you are talking with Me-of course, you are My friend-on equal level. You are talking just like a very learned man." You have read in the Bhagavad-gītā. He submitted his proposition, that "How can I kill my…, the other side? They are my brothers, and if the brothers are dead, my sister-in-laws will be widow and they will be polluted, and there will be varṇa-saṅkara. And so…" These things are facts, but Kṛṣṇa says that "You are simply taking calculation of the body. Body. You have no spiritual calculation. The life is meant for spiritual understanding, athāto brahma jijñāsā. But you have no such understanding. You have no such knowledge, and still you are speaking." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: [Bg. 2.11] "You are talking like a very learned man, but My dear friend, you are not learned." He said in a different way. Agatāsūn. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "Because this body… You are thinking in terms of bodily relationship, but a paṇḍita, a learned scholar… Actually he is learned scholar when he does not lament for this body, either alive or dead." This is the first instruction. This body is already dead. It is matter, dead matter. But you should try to understand the living spirit within this body. The next verse He said that,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

[Bg. 2.13]

This is knowledge, beginning of knowledge. Try to understand about the soul, the part of Parabrahman, the spark of Parabrahman, the spirit soul. That is within this body. So "You are lamenting on this body, but you have no information of the active principle within the body." So nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "So this is not the statement of a paṇḍita." In other way He… He is friend. Or as śiṣya…, that "This kind of things never happens in the case of a paṇḍita." That means, "My dear friend, you are apaṇḍita. You are not paṇḍita." One who does not know about the spirit soul, he is not a paṇḍita. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. This transmigration of the soul… Just like you condole d one Rotarian who has died. But Kṛṣṇa says, dhīras tatra na muhyati. "Yes, he's not dead. He has transmigrated to another body. He's not dead." That is the… Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. This is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, that "Don't think that because the body is annihilated, therefore the person is annihilated. No." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "That soul never takes birth, never dies." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne [Bg. 2.20]. This is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. There are so many students of Bhagavad-gītā, but because they are not actually paṇḍita, they do not take account of the simple thing, how the soul transmigrates from one body to another. This is the position. And therefore we should not continue to remain apaṇḍitāḥ, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ, and lament. So long we are not paṇḍitāḥ, our business is to lament and to hanker. We lament what is lost, and we hanker what is not in our possession. This is material disease. So when we understand that ahaṁ brahmāsmi… That hint is given by Kṛṣṇa, that asmin dehe dehinaḥ: "The proprietor of the body is there, asmin dehe. On account of presence of the proprietor of the body, the body is changing." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. The kaumāra, the childhood, the boyhood, the youthhood-these changes of body is taking place on account of presence of the dehina. So where is this education all over the world? There is no such education. But there is knowledge. This is Bhagavad-gītā. We don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā; therefore there is no such education, athāto brahma jijñāsā, or to understand Brahman.

So everything is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, and you have got a nice club. So I request you to discuss on the Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Then it will be beneficial for your club. Because Cāṇakya Paṇḍita… You have heard the name of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. In New Delhi there is a Cāṇakya Purī. He was a great politician, very learned scholar, brāhmaṇa and great moralist also. So he has instructed about this Brahman knowledge in various ways. So our point is that we should not spoil this life. We should utilize every moment of our life very properly. This Cāṇakya Pandit I am referring because he has given very good instruction how to utilize our life. He says,

āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi

na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ

na cen nirarthakaṁ nītiḥ

kā ca hānis tato 'dhikā

We are calculating of loss and gain. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that "Even one moment of our life, if it is lost, then you cannot get it back even by paying hundreds and thousands of dollars." One moment of this day, if it is lost, you cannot get it back by paying hundreds and thousands of dollars. So if the moments of your life is spent uselessly, then how much loss you are suffering, you just imagine. Therefore our request is that we have got this valuable life, human form of life, bahu-sambhavānte, after many, many births in the evolutionary process. Now we should try to understand what is Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Don't spoil it otherwise. And that brahma-jijñāsā and answer is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Bhagavad-gītā instruction is given just to bring you back to Brahman consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not this bodily consciousness. Bodily consciousness is there in the dog and the cat. So that is not very glorification. We should come to the Brahman consciousness, then brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Then you'll be jubilant. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati-samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. And when you come to that platform of understanding Brahman, then there is question of sama, samatā. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. And on that stage you can attain the parā-bhakti, or devotional life to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So that is our propaganda, and we are trying to bring people to that stage of parā-bhakti. That parā-bhakti is achievable by the simple method, as Kṛṣṇa said,

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā…

[Bg. 7.1]

Unless you understand Kṛṣṇa, why should you surrender unto Him? Parā-bhakti begins when you surrender. So that takes place [break] …the darkness of bodily conception of life. That is condemned in the Vedic literature. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

sa eva go-kharaḥ

[SB 10.84.13]

If we keep ourself on the bodily concept of life, and then we are defeated. This is the verdict of the śāstra. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long you are not inquisitive about your Brahman identification, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, then whatever you are doing, that is defeat. That is not advancement. So with these words I shall request you that in your club you cultivate this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā and utilize your time fully and just try to make your life successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

770115LE.ALL

Morning Lecture

Allahabad, January 15, 1977

Prabhupāda: So people do not understand that there is life after death. But Bhagavān says, "Yes, there is life after death." Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So dehāntara-prāpti, two kinds of dehāntara-prāpti, either towards the hell or towards heaven, towards liberation and towards bondage. So liberation means mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. We want liberation. Then mahat-sevā, we have to take shelter of mahātmā. And if you want to go to the darkest region of material existence, then yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam, sense enjoyment… Yoṣit means woman. So the last resort of sense enjoyment is sex life. So if we indulge in sex life, then yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Not only directly we indulge in sex life, but even indirectly we associate with persons who are only interested in sex life… The whole world is interested in sex life. Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etat. This material world is existing on this mithunī-bhāva. So tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Therefore you'll find in the Vedic way of life, sex indulgence is restricted. If we indulge in sex life than it is absolutely required, then we are gliding towards hellish condition of life. And if we follow the path of mahātmās, mahat-sevā, that is dvāram āhur vimukteḥ. We are making progress towards liberation.

So this is a chance. This Kumbhamelā is a chance to get opportunity of mahat-sevā. Mahat-sevā dvāram āhur vimukteḥ. Many… Of course, it is Kali-yuga. There are so many so-called mahātmās in dress for earning livelihood. That kind of mahātmā is not required. Mahātmā is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Actually we have to associate with such mahātmā who is su-durlabhaḥ, not very easily obtainable. And who is that su-durlabhaḥ mahātmā? That is also described.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

So you'll get so many mahātmās who are declaring atheism: "There is no God. I am God. You are God. Where you are searching out God? The God is loitering in the street, the daridra-nārāyaṇa." If you associate with such mahātmā, so-called… They are not mahātmās. They are durātmās. So be careful that you may not mistake who is mahātmā. Mahātmā, very simple thing: mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmā has nothing to do with this material world. They are under the care of daivī-prakṛti, spiritual world. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivī prakṛti… [Bg. 9.13], bhajanty ananya-manaso. The symptom is that he's fully engaged in serving Kṛṣṇa. Mām. Kṛṣṇa is original, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have to catch up the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. It is not very easy, but it can be done if we have got intelligence. Intelligence is… That Kṛṣṇa says. (aside:) Who is that making sound? Kṛṣṇa says, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately… Of course, we must take sincerely, not a show. Everything is seriously. Then immediately we become on the path of mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2].

So… And this line of devotional service is sevā, service. Ultimately we are all servants, but in the absence of being mahātmā, we are serving māyā. Service is there. We cannot become master. That is not possible. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. So there are two things: Kṛṣṇa and māyā, light and shadow. If you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, then you have to serve māyā. And those who are serving māyā in the name of Kṛṣṇa, they are called Māyāvādī. Actually, they are serving māyā, but they say that they have become liberated. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They are described as vimukta-māninaḥ. Māninaḥ means one who is not actually the thing, but falsely one is thinking that "I am liberated. I have become equal with Nārāyaṇa." They are called vimukta-māninaḥ. Actually that is not the fact. So we shall be very careful to avoid this kind of mahātmās who are thinking themselves as Nārāyaṇa, equal to Nārāyaṇa, or sometimes they claim greater than Nārāyaṇa. So we shall be very careful. This Melā, there are so many so-called mahātmās. But the symptom of mahātmā is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhajanty ananya-manaso. That is the qualification. And to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, it is not at all difficulty. There is no difficulty. Anyone can become. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. Even lowborn, they can also take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, and what to speak of… Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā [Bg. 9.33]. If actually qualified brāhmaṇas, they take shelter, what to speak of… Their progress is very quick. Punyā. Without puṇyā background, sukṛti, nobody can take birth in the family or society of brāhmaṇas.

So brāhmaṇa… First of all, we have to become pure brāhmaṇa.

satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjava

jñānaṁ-vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

[Bg. 18.42]

These are the brahminical qualification. Unfortunately, nobody is interested to become a brāhmaṇa, and what to speak of becoming a Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava is above the brāhmaṇas. Ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ. Brāhmaṇa's business is sat-karma: paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan dāna pratigraha. So even a brāhmaṇa is very expert in this brāhmaṇa's business, paṭhan pāṭhan… He has studied Vedas very thoroughly, and he has many students whom he has taught the Vedic knowledge. This is paṭhan pāṭhan. Yajan yājan: he is expert in worshiping the Deity, and he teaches other disciples also. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgara-tan-mandira-mārj anādau **. So there are brāhmaṇas who are not Vaiṣṇava, worshiper of demigods other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such brāhmaṇa is not required. Such brāhmaṇas are condemned. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Anya-devatāḥ. The Viṣṇu is the original devatā, and then next devatā, Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, and then others. So they are all anya-devatāḥ. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. So one has to worship Viṣṇu. That is Vaiṣṇava. Viṣṇur asya devatā iti vaiṣṇavaḥ. Vaiṣṇava means that he's not worshiper of any other demigods. There is no question of disrespect for any other demigods. But śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyam. But to take shelter of and to worship is recommended to the Supreme Lord-mām ekam-not everyone. We can show our respectful obeisances even to the ant, but worshipable Deity, or God, is Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu-tattva.

There are many forms of Viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. He's expanded in many forms: Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha… There are so many incarnation of Viṣṇu-tattva. They're all one. Advaitam acyutam anādi ananta-rūpam. So Viṣṇu-tattva, worshipable, or Kṛṣṇa-tattva, worshipable. And to pin our staunch faith in Viṣṇu, we should discuss about Viṣṇu-tattva and not Viṣṇu-tattva (?). That is called siddhānta. Siddhānta boliyā citte nā kara alasa: "Don't be lazy to discuss about siddhānta." Ihā haite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa: "The more you discuss the thesis-not thesis; the factual presentation of Viṣṇu-tattva, māyā, and jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva-then it will be clear what is Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. We should try to understand this fact, that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, and if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness… Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your all other duties automatically… The same example, as we have given: If you pour water on the root of the tree, then all other duties are automatically done. There is no question of separate attempt-philanthropy, philosophy and nationalism, this "ism," that "ism." We have discovered so many things and diversion of the real duty. That we shall have to concentrate. That is siddhānta.

siddhānta boliyā citte nā kara alasa

iha haite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa

We become more and more faithful to Kṛṣṇa by understanding the siddhānta.

So māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva… [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. For kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, to avoid this Māyāvādī philosophy that "Everyone is God. I am God. You are God…" This is atheism. It is cheating atheism. One class of atheism is Śūnyavādī: "There is no God." That we can understand, that he is atheist. "There is no God." He publicly declares, "We don't believe in God." But the Māyāvādīs are dangerous because they say that there is God, but without any form-no head, no leg. If you make "no, no, no," then where is…? It becomes zero ultimately. Go on making "no, no"-"No head, no tail, no hand, no…" So what remains? So this is another trick for saying there is no God. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that this class, who gives the negative definition of God-"Not this, not this, not this, not this"-the Māyāvādī, Māyā… They say, "Not this. This is māyā." So this Māyāvādī, they are greater atheist.

veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta nāstika

vedāśraya nāstikya-vāda bauddhake adhika

So it is very dangerous to associate with Māyāvādīs. Of course, those who are kaniṣṭha… Who are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can mix with anyone. Nobody can influence. They are protected. If one has become pure devotee, for preaching work he can go anywhere. [break] (end)

770119LE.BHU

Evening Lecture

Bhuvaneśvara, January 19, 1977

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.

Hari-śauri: Spectacles?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can speak in three languages, English, Bengali and Hindi. But I cannot speak in Oriya. Now our Gaura-Govinda Mahārāja, he has agreed to translate into Oriya from English. So as you desire, I can speak either in English, Hindi or Bengali.

Indian man: English.

Prabhupāda: I shall speak in English. If I speak in English, then these foreigners, they will also understand, and it can be translated into Oriya. So? I shall speak in English? That's all?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You say yes. (laughter) So, of course, English is international language, and because we are speaking in English, publishing in English, it has been possible to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. (Bengali) (Gaura-Govinda translates) So we have first of all presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in English. Now it is being translated practically in all the languages of the world. (translated throughout) Our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is has been translated in all the European languages, namely French, German, Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, in this way, in Europe. Whole America speaks in English. Whole Australia speaks in English. Besides that, in Asia, Chinese language and Japanese language, they have all translated.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for saving the whole human society. The present moment… Not in the present. In this material world always the attempt is to defy the supremacy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the present moment the so-called scientists, their only business is how to defy the supremacy of God. Naturally our, this movement has to face many impediments because at the present moment the whole world is practically godless. Even in our country, in India, where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, even here also the same attempt is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they take Bhagavad-gītā in their hand as if he is a great authority in Bhagavad-gītā, but they are presenting commentation just to defy Kṛṣṇa. So we take them according to Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is the verdict of the śāstra, and Kṛṣṇa personally, when He was present before us, He said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "Nobody is greater authority than Me." In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now, this life, this human form of life, is meant for making inquiry about the Supreme. That Brahman, the Supreme… Brahman means bṛhatvad bṛhannatvad, the greatest which includes everything. That is Brahman. Just like we are, we living entities, we are Brahman. Because I am the spirit soul, I am within this body; therefore everything is complete. So in the Bhagavad-gītā this brahma-jijñāsā, "What is Brahman?" if you are inquisitive, the answer is in the very beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā.

So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, giving the first instruction to Arjuna, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir [Bg. 2.13]. The Brahman, the spirit soul, the part and parcel of Parabrahman, is dehi. Asmin dehe. In this body he is the proprietor of the body. Dehi and deha. Deha means this body, and dehi means the proprietor of the body. So that dehi, or the proprietor of the body, is Brahman. Brahma-jijñāsā. If we are inquisitive to know about Brahman, first of all we must know that I or you, any spirit soul, is Brahman, and he's within this body. We are not the… Other words, we are not this body; we are within this body. This is brahma-jñāna. In another place also, the same thing has been affirmed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣetra kṣetrajñaḥ. Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa, "What is kṣetra and what is kṣetrajña?" That answer is given in the Thirteenth Chapter: idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetram ity abidhīyate. It has been explained that this kṣetra… Just like we work in the field, the owner of the field and the field, similarly, this body is the field, and the owner, the dehi, I or you, we are working on this field, kṣetrajña. And Kṛṣṇa says also, kṣetrajñaṁ cāpy māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He… Because sometimes foolishly we think that we are also Bhagavān or equal to Bhagavān, kṣetrajña, so Kṛṣṇa says, "I am also kṣetrajña, but the difference is that sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata." (aside:) Now explain. Just like I am kṣetrajñam; you are kṣetrajñam. You know the pains and pleasure of your body; I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But either you or I do not know what is the pains and pleasure of your body, and you do not know what is the pains and pleasure of my body. So that is the difference between ātmā and Paramātmā. Kṛṣṇa is Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūteṣu hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati. That Paramātmā… I am also with Him. I am also living within the heart, and Kṛṣṇa is also living within the heart.

So there are two ātmās, namely ātmā and Paramātmā. This is explained in the Upaniṣad, that "There are two birds on one tree. This tree is this body, and the two birds, one is ātmā and the other is Paramātmā." So one bird is simply witnessing what the other bird is doing, and the other bird, jīvātmā, he is eating the fruit. So therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

That īśvara, that Paramātmā, is sitting also within this body, but He's observing what the jīvātmā wants to do. According to that, He is supplying a machine. This machine means this body, yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This machine is manufactured by the external energy, māyā. So therefore we are jīvātmā; we are different from the Paramātmā. Those who are equalizing Paramātmā and jīvātmā, they are not in perfect knowledge. Either purposefully they are misleading, or they do not know the perfect knowledge.

At the present moment this danger is there in a very large quantity. People are thinking wrongly that they are also God, as good as God. In the Bhagavad-gītā the statement is, Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Jīva-bhūta is the living entities. "They are My part and parcel." So it is an axiomatic truth: part is never equal to the whole. Āṁśi. So just like this finger is the part of my body, but it does not mean the finger is the whole body. Therefore there is distinction between Brahman and Parambrahman, īśvara and Parameśvara, ātmā and Paramātmā. So īśvara means controller, one who controls, but Parameśvara means the controller of the controller. That is explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara… All of us may be īśvara. I am īśvara amongst my disciples. You may be īśvara amongst your family members. But none of us is Parameśvara. So this mistaken knowledge is very much spread at the present moment. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is specially meant for removing this misconception of understanding God and the jīvas. So our first principle is that we have to discard or disregard the persons who are very much anxious to establish that īśvara and Parameśvara, or the living entity and the Supreme Person, they are equal. We do not support this theory. It is said in the śāstra,

yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ

brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ

samatvenaiva vīkṣeta

sa pāṣaṇḍī bhaved dhruvam

[Cc. Madhya 18.116]

Nārāyaṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nārāyaṇaṁ devam, if we equalize Him even with such demigods, such big personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, then we become a pāṣaṇḍī.

yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ

brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ

samatvenaiva vīkṣeta

sa pāṣaṇḍī bhaved dhruvam

Anyone, what to speak of with ordinary person, even personalities, big, big personalities like Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva, if one equalize Nārāyaṇa, then he is called a pāṣaṇḍī. At the present moment a poor man has been equalized with Nārāyaṇa as daridra-nārāyaṇa. So why one should say daridra-nārāyaṇa? What is the reason? Nārāyaṇa is Lakṣmī-pati, the husband of the goddess of fortune. How He can become daridra-nārāyaṇa? And where is this word in the śāstra, "daridra-nārāyaṇa"? So in this way people are being misled.

So we have to save ourself from this misconception of life. Then we can make progress in the matter of understanding what is God. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any deviation, and people are appreciating. Our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is is being accepted by big, big scholars and professors. We have got innumerable certificates or their opinion, and it is being well received. And from monetary point of view also, you'll be surprised that we are selling millions of copies of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So we have come to your city to say something about Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. If respectable persons of this city will come and attend this meeting, I shall try to explain more and more so long I am present here. Now, if you have got any question on the subject matter I have spoken, you can make. I shall try to answer. (pause) So there is no question, I think. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now a kīrtana.

Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

770121LE.BHU

Lecture

Bhuvaneśvara, January 21, 1977

Prabhupāda: Just like a student is admitted in the school for learning ABCD, and if he follows the rules and regulations and continues his studies regularly, then one day he would be able to pass M.A. examination, so from the very beginning we have to execute these processes because our life is impure at the present moment, and we have to purify this life.

tapasā brahmacaryeṇa

śamena damena vā

tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ

yamena niyamena vā

[SB 6.1.13]

These things are there in the śāstra. We have to execute tapasya, austerity, to purify. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. So it is not a formality. It is a process to become free from this material bondage and go back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. We should be very serious, not that to take initiation as a matter of fashion, but it should be very carefully and seriously done. [break] Human life is meant for this purpose. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. If you do not inquire about Brahman, if you simply inquire, "Where is food? Where is sense gratification…?" The whole world is going like that. Anywhere you go, the inquiry is, "Where is sense gratification? Where is sex? Where is safety, and where is eating?" This is the inquiry generally. The cats, dogs, birds, beast-everyone is inquiring like that. In the morning you'll find the birds are chirping, "Now it is morning. Where we have to go to have our necessities of life?" This is the inquiry of this material body. But when you get this human form of body, the inquiry should be different. Explain this. (Gaura-govinda translates) [break]

So Narottama das Ṭhākura sings,

hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā

jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

So we should always remember song of Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. He is ācārya. He's guru. Ācāryopāsanam. Ācārya upāsanā is one of the process of making progress. So this song is very important.

hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā

jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

(aside:) Explain. [break] In the material world everyone is suffering. There is no exception, either rich man or poor man, learned or fool-everyone. This is the place for suffering. And if we take this place of suffering as comfortable, that is our ignorance. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, biṣāya biṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jwale taribare nā koinu upāy golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma saṅkīrtana rati nā jaṅmilo kene tāy. (aside:) Explain. [break] So Narottama says that we should take advantage of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's and Nityānanda Prabhu's presence. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo harināme uddhārilo tāra śākṣī jagāi and mādhāi, brajendra nandana jei śacī-suta hoilo sei balarāma hoilo nitāi, that "Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa. Formerly He was Brajendranandana." Brajendranandana. Brajendra is Mahārāja, Nanda Mahārāja. And He accepted father-Nanda Mahārāja. Nandanandana. "Same Nandanandana has now become Śacīnandana." Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mother's name is Śacīdevī. So brajendra-nandana jei śacī-suta hoilo sei. "Who was formerly Brajendra-nandana, He has now become Śacīnandana. And formerly who was Balarāma, He has become Nitāi." Brajendranandana hei śacī-suta hoilo sei balarāma hoilo nitāi. So why They have come again? Now, pāpī tāpī yata chilo harināme uddhārilo: "They have come to deliver all kinds of sinful men, suffering humanity, just allowing to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra." Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, harināme uddhārilo. So what is the evidence how papi tapi were delivered? Tāra śākṣī jagāi and mādhāi.

So there is no hopelessness. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda Prabhu is there. If we take shelter of Their lotus feet, there is no hopelessness. But we should not commit any more sinful activities. Then They will deliver us from these clutches of māyā. (end)

770123LE.BHU

Evening Lecture

Bhuvaneśvara, January 23, 1977

Prabhupāda: So we shall continue that Rāmānanda? No. So who will read and explain?

Indian man: So shall I read from the First Chapter?

Prabhupāda: No. Where he was.

Hari-śauri: You won't be speaking, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. He will explain in Oriya. [break] …that is Vedic culture. As yesterday we were talking of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśrama-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-so the Vedic culture means to execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Now we are known as Hindus. The Hindu word is not to be found… [break] A little disturbance will mar the situation. So, Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama-dharma. The Muhammadans from the other side of river Sindhu, they have called us Hindu. Actually, this word "Hindu" you'll not find any Vedic scripture. So to accept this position-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa-is compulsory. It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyāsa. This Rāmānanda Rāya also retired from the government service. He met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised him that "Now you retire from your governorship and come to Jagannātha Purī, your home, and let us talk together about spiritual life." So in this way he retired. So all the associates of Caitanya Mahāprabhu-śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha-Six Gosvāmīs, the direct disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they were all in renounced order of life. Then? Read. You read. You'll hear.

Indian man (2): "Although the Gosvāmīs were very aristocratic, they became mendicant just to deliver the fallen souls according to the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu."

Prabhupāda: About Gosvāmīs, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, he has written, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. (child talking) (aside:) Please take out. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. They were ministers. Naturally their associates were very, very big zamindars and rich men, aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. Maṇḍala-pati means leaders, social, political. So, gave up their company. Explain. Why? Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Dīna-gaṇeśakau, the poor mass of people… We are thinking that we are advancing, but actually we are becoming poverty-stricken. So this very word is used, dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā. So this time is always. Unless the social leaders, the leaders of the society, they take care of the mass of people to educate them, dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā, if they do not become compassionate to the poor mass of people, who will deliver them?

They are poor because they have no spiritual conception of life. So that situation is always existing; therefore it is the duty of the leaders of the society, especially of the brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas, to take sannyāsa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the mass of people. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Now we have got experience that many big, big leaders in political field… We have seen this noncooperation movement. They also took sannyāsa practically. But they could not live long because they could not tolerate the position of renouncement. But about the Gosvāmīs it is said,

tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat

bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau

gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur

vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau…

There must be engagement, proper engagement. If the engagement is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then this so-called sannyāsa will be failure. Practically in Calcutta there was a big barrister, C. R. Das, he renounced everything, but he could not live long. Very shortly he died. [break] …was their position. [break] Sannyāsa means to renounce for the Supreme, sannyāsa. Sat-nyāsa. If one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and if he renounces family life and preaches Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he will be happy, and the persons amongst whom he will preach, they will be happy. We have seen practically, many, many big, big sannyāsīs, they gave up this world-brahma satya jagan mithyā: "This world is mithyā. Let me take sannyāsa." But unfortunately, they could not stand in that position. After few years they come down again in social work, in political work. That means they could not understand what is Brahman. That is stated, confirmed in the śāstra, that

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ

[SB 10.2.32]

Ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa. Ye aravindakṣa. Aravindakṣa is Kṛṣṇa. "Persons who are thinking that 'I have become liberated,' vimukta-mānina, they're actually… They're not mukta. Therefore," āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam, "although they underwent very severe austerities and achieved the position in nirviśeṣa-brahma," āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32], "but because they could not understand, my Lord, Your lotus feet, they," patanty adho, "they fall down." Just like in the modern age they are going very high by aeroplane or sputnik, but because they do not get a shelter in either the moon planet or Mars planet, they again come down. So simply speculative knowledge, philosophical knowledge, will not give us actual shelter in the nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahman. Absolute Truth we can realize in three stages. This is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

[SB 1.2.11]

Yes. The brahmānu-bhūti is simply negation of this material world. Brahmā satya jagan mithyā. But brahmānu-bhūti is not final. We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So simply understanding of our eternity-ahaṁ brahmāsmi-is not sufficient. So that is only appreciation of the eternity portion. And then, if one further makes progress, he… Paramātmā. Paramātmā means cit, cid-āṁśa. And lastly, unless we come to the shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, there is no ānanda. And every one of us-ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). God is also ānandamaya. We, being part and parcel of God, we are also seeking after ānanda. So you cannot get permanent ānanda either by Brahman realization or Paramātmā realization. Unless you come to God realization, Personality of Godhead, there is no ānanda.

ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis

tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ

goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.37]

Govinda, Kṛṣṇa, is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. He is in the ānanda cinmaya. His ānanda is not jara-rasa. It is cinmaya-rasa. We should not understand or misunderstand Kṛṣṇa's līlā is just like ordinary human activity. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī has described this Kṛṣṇa's ānanda, that,

rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikrtir hlādinī śaktir asmād

ekātmānāv api bhuvi purā deha-bhedaṁ gatau tau

śrī-caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam adhunā tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptam…

[Cc. Ādi 1.5]

So we should understand Kṛṣṇa, how He is ānanda-cinmaya vigraha. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is ānanda-cinmaya vigraha, combination of hlādinī śakti, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, and Kṛṣṇa together. Therefore the Vaiṣṇava sings, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. If we take shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then there is possibility to understand the Kṛṣṇa science.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to impregnate or push this movement throughout the world through the mercy of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. And actually it is happening. By taking shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, these Europeans and Americans, although they are supposed to be born in mleccha, yavana family, they are taking Kṛṣṇa consciousness so seriously. Otherwise it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

Out of many many millions of persons, one is interested how to become perfect. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi means to understand one's own position. Therefore we request everyone to take shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to understand Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī he has given his direction,

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

Idea is Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, offering his obeisances to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, namo mahā-vadānyāya: "The greatest munificent charitable person because You are giving Kṛṣṇa-prema. Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa, but You are giving Kṛṣṇa-prema." Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. "You are Kṛṣṇa. You have appeared again as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. Therefore I offer my obeisances." Similarly Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, who was the learned scholar, paṇḍita, in the assembly of Mahārāja Pratāparudra… [break] …sabhā-paṇḍita. So he also has written many verses. One of them is that,

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-

śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī

kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye

[Cc. Madhya 6.254]

"This Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the same person." Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti. "In order to teach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, He has now appeared as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti yoga-śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. Śāśvata-purāṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Purāṇa. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. He's the oldest person, ādi-puruṣa, but nava-yauvana. So in every way you'll find that if we want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then we have to take shelter of this Kṛṣṇa's renounced order of life in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

So Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu's one of the confidential devotees was an Oriya, this Rāmānanda Rāya and Śikhi Māhiti. So it is a great opportunity for the Oriyas to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness science through the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We are discussing the talks between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Rāmānanda Rāya. You'll kindly hear and take advantage of it and be benefited. [break] So we can, if they require, any question-answer. [break]

Guest (1): …Kṛṣṇa consciousness in gṛhastha āśrama?

Prabhupāda: They follow Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya. He was a gṛhastha. He was a responsible government officer. Still, he was the best disciple of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Rāmānanda Rāya, while talking with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was feeling little shamefulness because Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great sannyāsī and coming from a very respectable brāhmaṇa family, and Rāmānanda Rāya, he belonged to the Kharan(?) caste of Orissa, and he was gṛhastha, at the same time in government service. So he was feeling little shamefulness, that "I am teaching Caitanya Mahāprabhu." So when he was feeling like that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu encouraged him,

kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya

[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

"You become a sannyāsī or you become a gṛhastha or you are a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to do with these material things. If you know actually what is Kṛṣṇa, then you can become guru." Another place also, Kṛṣṇa, er, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that

yei bhaje sei baḍa abhakta hīna chāra

kṛṣṇa-bhajane te nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra

[Cc. Antya 4.67]

"Anyone who is a devotee, he is great, and who is not devotee, he may declare himself as great, but he is the most fallen." In the devotional service there is no such distinction as jāti and kula. So if you follow-the example is there in your country, Rāmānanda Rāya-then wherever you are, you are exalted. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he has also said-he is ācārya-gṛhe vā vanete thāke hā gaurāṅga bale ḍāke narottama māge tāra saṅga: "It doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or he's a sannyāsī." Vanete means vānaprastha, sannyāsī. "Wherever he may be, if he's actually a perfect devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, I want his association. Never mind." Gṛhe vā vanete thāke hā gaurāṅga bale ḍāke narottama māge tāra saṅga.

So Kṛṣṇa bhajana is so magnanimous, so exalted, in any position you can become the greatest guru, provided you follow the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. [break] …says how one can become perfect. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. Simply think of Kṛṣṇa, this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare… So you remain gṛhastha. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said, nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kāje. In whatever occupation you are, remain there. There is no need of changing. But nāmāśraya kari. If you remain a gṛhastha, what is your loss if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra? And if there is gain, why don't you take it? Simple thing. And Kṛṣṇa also says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. These four things will get you back to home, back to Godhead. What is that? Simply think of Kṛṣṇa. But if from the very beginning you want to understand the meaning of Kṛṣṇa-"Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra. He has no hand, He has no leg"-then how you'll think of Kṛṣṇa? You have to give up all this nonsense idea. Then wherever you live, you will be perfect by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] …Kali-yuga the special advantage is that people cannot become very much advanced in spiritual life, but for Kali-yuga there is a special concession. Kalau nāsty nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, it is confirmed, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. So you remain gṛhastha. It is now difficult to give up gṛhastha life. But don't be merged into this black hole. Don't make black hole tragedy. Be alive, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you'll be happy. So there is no distinction in Kṛṣṇa-bhajana whether one is a gṛhastha or a sannyāsī. He must take the science. Then he will be all right.

Guest (3) (Indian man): …without taking dīkṣā from the guru also utters the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa with devotion and…

Prabhupāda: There is no devotion unless you go to a guru. Forget it. Ādau gurvāśrayam. First thing is, first business, is to accept a bona fide guru. Otherwise there is no devotion. It is simply false imitation. This is the injunction of Rūpa Gosvāmī in Bhakti-rasāmṛta sindhu. Ādau gurvāśrayam: "Your first business is to approach bona fide guru and take his āśraya." Otherwise there is no devotion. That has been the defect in the modern society. They imagine. This business should be given up. He must follow. Sādhu-mārgānugāmanam, which is prescribed by the sādhu, guru, you have to accept that. You cannot manufacture your own way.

Guest (3): The world is so vast, and people who are living in this world and also wishing to attain God or remember God or say about the God… Also the namaskaram is, Gurudeva said, that, mentioned in the Gītā, that all these are fruitless, the soul which is remembering God either in the form of Kṛṣṇa, but he has not met a guru. Because to get a real guru is a real occasion. It doesn't happen in the case of everyone. One in million get a chance to get a real spiritual guide. There are so many in the name of spiritual guide. And he will false pray because his inner soul hankers and inner soul thinks that "This is my guru, and somehow I will accept whatever he says." And the ultimate aim and objective is to love God or to recite his name or surrender to Him.

Prabhupāda: This question has been answered by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu while He was teaching Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpayā pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

[Cc. Madhya 19.151]

The guru word is there. Guru Kṛṣṇa. If you are actually hankering after Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa is within yourself-He will give you a guru. He will give you a guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya. But we must be fortunate to get real guru. If I am unfortunate, I'll not get a guru. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]? Mālī hañā se bīja kariya āropaṇa. In this way you'll find in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He accepted guru, Īśvara Purī. He is Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa Himself. As Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya said that,

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-

śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya śarīra dhārī…

[Cc. Madhya 6.254]

He's the puruṣa Purāṇa, Kṛṣṇa, but now He has appeared as Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. So he also accepted guru, what to speak of our… Kṛṣṇa also accepted guru. So how you will get the ultimate goal of life without accepting guru? Why do you manufacture this idea? There is no need of manufacturing this. You have to follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you manufacture, then you'll be cheated. Don't do this. That has become a fashion, that you manufacture your own way of service. That is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī stresses, ādau-gurvāśrayam: "The first business is that you must find out a bona fide guru." Then other things.

Guest (4) (Indian man): Gurudeva said the only aim of human being is to surrender to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, to the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): In India especially, there are so many temples and gods and goddesses…

Prabhupāda: That has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are hṛta-jñānāḥ, less intelligent, all these gods and goddess are for them. Hṛta-jñānāḥ. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. "Those who are after other demigods, they are hṛta-jñānāḥ." Hṛta-jñānāḥ means they have got little knowledge-that is taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. These words are there. So this demigod worship is for the less intelligent class of men, not the actual intellectuals. Actual intellectual is he-bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So he's actual intelligent, when he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. So the demigod worship is recommended for the less intelligent class of men. Otherwise, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa is the highest stage of perfection.

Guest (5) (Indian man): Sir, what is the difference between renunciation and surrender?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Renunciation is the beginning of this material world. You cannot take, you cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa, unless you renounce this ma…. If you have got material necessities… Sarva-dharmān parityajva. Kṛṣṇa says, "Absolute surrender." And if you want material necessities, then you have got so many dharmas-this dharma, that dharma, social dharma, family dharma, national dharma, community dharma, and so on, so on. But Kṛṣṇa demands, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. So it is not very easy thing. Therefore renunciation and surrender. Surrender means full renunciation, no reservation. And renunciation means you renounce something and keep something. That is difference.

Guest (5): Supposing any person, he renounces everything, his material property, and if he just came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Can he live?

Prabhupāda: We are living. You can see practically. We have got more than one hundred centers, and we are maintaining at least ten thousand men, just like these Europeans. And you have seen our opulence. We are advertised as fabulously rich. You can see here also. We have got at least four cars here. Who has got four cars? Don't you see how we are living?

Guest (5): Sir, what I meant… Supposing…

Prabhupāda: No. Your question is that… We are living very opulently because we are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. That is point. So if you come to us you will also live very opulently. Surrender. Do that by practical seeing. We have no anxiety. Do you know what is our expenditure? In New York we are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month. Only in New York. Similarly, in Los Angeles we have got huge expenditure. And our income is also, daily, five lakhs. You can see. Take our account. Audit. People do not touch as soon as one hears, "Oh, it is a religious group." And we are selling religious books, this Bhāgavata and Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, six lakhs of rupees daily. Can you imagine?

Guest (6) (Indian man): Where is this consciousness of surrender come in human life? At what stage it can come?

Prabhupāda: At any moment. You must be prepared. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you have got intelligence, you can do it immediately. Where is the difficulty? But you'll not do it. They have done it, these young boys. They have no other business. And Kṛṣṇa assures, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: Don't hesitate. But we are hesitating. So there is no surrender. So all right, you remain under the clutches of māyā and suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is very strong. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti As soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa immediately you are mukta. Immediately, instantly. It is in your hand. You follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, do the needful, you are mukta. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end)

770126AD.PUR

Evening Address to Paṇḍas and Scholars

Jagannātha Purī, January 26, 1977

Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, who has been kind enough to grace this occasion wherein we have assembled this evening to pay our respectful homage to Jagannātha dāsa Gosvāmī, who was a contemporary of Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) I thank you very much…

Hari-śauri: The microphone's not working.

Prabhupāda: …for kindly receiving me. So in our humble way we are trying to…

Indian man (1): Is the mike on?

Prabhupāda: …introduce the Jagannātha Swami's culture. Jagannātha svāmī nayana-pathagāmī bhavatu me. You'll be very much pleased that in the year 1967 I introduced Ratha-yātrā in San Francisco. And it is going on continually for the last six or seven years, and the government, they have fixed up a holiday for Ratha-yātrā. We have got 25th July as government fixed-up day, holiday, for Ratha-yātrā. And people take part in the Ratha-yātrā, not all my devotees, even outsiders. Ten to twelve thousand people attend, and we distribute prasādam to all of them. They feel very much obliged. And the newspaper writes that "People in general never felt such ecstasy as they are feeling in the Ratha-yātrā festival." And the police said that the crowd… In the Western country, as soon as there is some big crowd, there is some disturbance. So police were surprised that "This crowd is not window-breaking crowd." And next we introduced Ratha-yātrā in London, in the London, Trafalgar Square. That is the most famous square within the city. And there is a big column. It is called Nelson Column. So our ratha was so high that the Guardian paper, they criticized that "This Ratha-yātrā is rival to Nelson Column." Next we introduced Ratha-yātrā in Philadelphia, and this year we have introduced Ratha-yātrā in New York and…

Hari-śauri: Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne, Sydney.

Hari-śauri: Paris.

Prabhupāda: Paris. So in the Western countries Ratha-yātrā is being introduced one after another, and Jagannātha Swami is attracting the attention of the Western people. (someone talking in background) What is that? So people will come in your Jagannātha Purī now from all parts of the world. That is beneficial from various point of view. From the point of tourist program, the government will benefit. And when they're attracted to see Jagannātha Purī, Jagannātha Swami… Unfortunately, you do not allow these foreigners to enter the temple. How it can be adjusted? This stumbling block should be dissolved. If you want Jagannātha Swami to pack up within your home, and you do not expand the mercy of Jagannātha… He is Jagannātha. He's not only this Purī-nātha, or Oriya-nātha; He's Jagannātha. Kṛṣṇa declares in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. That is the definition of Jagannātha, sarva-loka-maheśvaram. So why you should deny the inhabitants of Sarva-loka the darśana of Jagannātha? That is not… Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu never approved such thing. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He said,

pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma

sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma

When that thing is being done and when they are eager to come here, why you should restrain? What is the cause? This is not very good. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. It is not good.

So we are preaching Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. We have translated into English Bhagavad-gītā, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And they are being received very nicely. In the Christmas period in a week, from 17 December to 24 December, our report is we have sold books, small and big, seventeen lakhs. And our general survey is: we are selling books to the worth of five to six lakhs daily. Daily. And our expenditure is also very heavy. We have started a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust for expanding this movement. We have got about two hundred buses to preach the Jagannātha cult all over the world, village to village, town to town… [break] …this kṛṣṇa-bhakti cult may be one (?) all over. I do not know what is the cause. Here you are all present, many learned scholars and pandits. So you consider why this restriction should be there. Of course, if you do not allow, there is no, I mean to say, loss on the part of the foreigners, because Jagannātha has already gone there, and they are worshiping. But it is an etiquette that to give samāna to the Vaiṣṇava, Vaiṣṇava aparādha has been very much condemned by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So these Vaiṣṇavas, when they are so much eager to come to Jagannātha Purī and see Jagannātha, you should welcome them. You should receive them well, because Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. And (in) the śāstra it is said, tadīyānām ārādhanam. Viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param, tasmāt parataraṁ devī tadīyānām ārādhanam.

So I have specially come to request you to remove this restriction and be friendly to the foreign devotees. And you also come there, see how there are so many Jagannātha temples, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temples, how They are being worshiped, how these foreigners, they have become pure Vaiṣṇava. They are strictly observing the four principles of sinful life by negation: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no fish-eating, no egg-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. They are purified. And Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī openly says, tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām. So there is authority. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

ye bhaje sei baḍa abhakta hīna chāra

kṛṣṇa bhajanete nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra

Kṛṣṇa says personally in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ…, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim [Bg. 9.32]. So there is ample śāstra-pramāṇa, approved by the ācāryas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu converted many Pathans into Vaiṣṇava, changed their name. So things are going according to śāstra and mahājana. Why you should not receive them as Vaiṣṇava and give them proper reception? That is my request. I hope… There are many learned scholars and devotees present here. They should endeavor to remove this, I mean to say, restriction or short-sightedness, and let us combinedly work for Jagannātha to preach the bhakti cult for the benefit of the whole world. Janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. This Bhārata bhūmi is for para-upakāra, because this knowledge, the Vedic knowledge, is here in the Śrīmad Bhāratavarṣa. So we should assimilate the bhakti cult to the right direction, and making our life successful, we should distribute this knowledge, this cult, all over the world. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Janma sārthaka kari para-upakāra. The modern civilization is very vicious civilization. Because in the human form of life there is the opportunity, athāto brahma jijñāsā-to inquire about the Supreme Truth-so if they are denied… The knowledge is there in India. If it is denied, that is not very good human society. So I shall request you all, learned scholars, paṇḍita present here, to cooperate with this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and let us conjoinedly work for Jagannātha cult.

Thank you very much.

Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? There's a question. You want to answer?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (2): …don't put question. Bhagavat-ṣaṭ-sandarbha of Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: So what shall I do? So? Of course, I do not know the Oriya language, but it is said that it is Bhagavat-ṣaṭ-sandarbha of Jagannātha. So it is inaugurated today. (applause) (Purī temple brāhmaṇas chant prayers to Lord Jagannātha) So these European and American Vaiṣṇavas, they're hankering after jagannātha svāmī nayana pathagāmī bhavatu me. Now it is through your intervention they may be able to see Jagannātha Swami. (chuckles) They are hankering like that, jagannātha svāmī nayana pathagāmī bhavatu me.

Indian man: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Have some prasāda. (end)

770129LE.BHU

Lecture

Bhuvaneśvara, January 29, 1977,

(with Oriyan translator)

Prabhupāda:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayam samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavān, personally speaking how you understand Him perfectly. [break] … previous chapter… [break] …already said that,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

It is not so easy to understand what is Kṛṣṇa or what is Godhead. Therefore He is personally speaking about Himself. There are many persons within this world, they are trying to understand what is God. (aside:) What is…? [break] When you want to study me by speculation, it is not perfect. But if I speak myself about my career, my position, they you can understand very easily. So the speculators, they are thinking that "God has no form. You can imagine any form of the Lord and try to worship Him." That is speculator. [break] … Another type of atheism. The atheists, they say, Śūnyavādī, "There is no God." But these Māyāvādī, they say, "Yes there is God, but He has no head, no leg, no mouth, nothing." Means, indirectly, they are saying there is not God.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore clearly said that this Māyāvādī, nirākāravādī, is more dangerous than the Śūnyavādī. Śūnyavādī, they publicly declare, "There is no God," just like modern population, that "There is no need of God." Asatyam aprathiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The atheist class, they say that "This world is asatya. There is no meaning." Asatyam jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. "And there is no God." We can understand that they are atheist. [break]… Māyāvādī philosopher, they take the shelter of Vedic literature and indirectly, directly, they try to wipe out the existence of God. [break] The Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore has said, māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa: [Cc. Madhya 6.169] "If you hear from a Māyāvādī, nirākāravādī, then you are doomed." You cannot understand about God at any time. [break] So our request is that if you at all want to understand what is God, don't go to the Māyāvādī or Śūnyavādi, but try to understand about God from God Himself. Sometimes they may say that "What is the use of understanding God? What is the necessity of understanding God?" No. That is not the right conclusion. Human life is meant for understanding God. [break]…God, you may say there is no God, but there is God. There is no doubt about it.

So we must know what is God, what is our relationship with Him and how we shall act in that relationship. You cannot say, "There is no God," from logic also. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the bīja-pradaḥ pitā, the seed-giving father." He says that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ. There are different types of body, and we can see that all types of living entities, they are coming from the earth. So everything is coming out of the earth, beginning from the grass to the big, big animals or other thing. Therefore this pṛthivī, or the earth, is our mother. Everything is coming from the earth. So mātā is there, mother is there, and the offsprings or children are there-there must be father. Without father, mother cannot beget any children. So when you see so many varieties of life, the mother is the… We say dhātrī-mātā. We have got seven mothers. One of them is the earth.

ādau-mātā guroḥ patnī

brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā

dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī

saptaitā mātaraḥ smṛtāḥ

According to our śāstra, there are seven mothers: my original mother, ādau-mātā… Guroḥ patnī is my mother. Dhenu, cow, is my mother. Dhātrī, the nurse, is my mother. Tathā pṛthvī. Also earth is also my mother. So mātā is there, and the sons are there. How you can deny, that "There is no father"? I may not see my father, but there is father; there is no doubt of it. That pitā is personally presenting Himself-ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "I am the seed-giving father."

So therefore… So God is there, and there is no doubt of it, but because, due to our foolishness, we think there is no God, there is no father, that is our foolishness. But what is that God, how He is, what is His business, how He is formed-all these things we want to learn, and human life is meant for that purpose. In the life of cats and dogs we cannot understand God, but in the human life we can understand. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra the first aphorism is that athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life, in the human form of life… Because we get this human form of life after many, many evolutionary… [break] So this is a chance to understand what is God and what is our relationship with Him. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung,

hari hari bifale, janama goṅāinu,

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,

jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

So it is our duty to understand, and some of them are trying to understand what is God. Now, here Kṛṣṇa, bhagavān uvāca, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, said that "You can understand Me perfectly." Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. Bhagavān is the last word of the Absolute Truth. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. So to understand Bhagavān is the last word, vedānta. Vedānta means… Veda means knowledge, and anta means the last word. Everything has some end. So you can have so many knowledges, but unless you understand what is Bhagavān, your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vasudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

So the conclusion is that we may be very learned scholar or scientist or philosopher, that we may be or very good worker, very good politician, but if we do not understand what is God, then we are in the categories of mūḍha, narādhama, duṣkṛtina. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ

[Bg. 7.15]

Duṣkṛtina means one who has got brain, but the brain is utilized for mischievous activities. And one becomes sinful, mischievous, on account of his foolishness. He does not know by mischievous activities he would be punished. This is going on by the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is very strong. For all our mischievous activities we are being punished. Māyā is punishing us by giving different forms of body.

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

Īśvara, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramātmā, is sitting in everyone's core of the heart, and He is witness, witnessing everything. So according to our karma, we are getting a body or a machine for movement given by māyā. So therefore we are getting different types of body. The reason is kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. The different types of body we are getting on account of association with the material qualities. So if we want to stop this business of repetition of birth and death in this cycle, we must understand. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. We must understand. It is compulsory. We must understand "What is God, what is my relations with Him." Then we can get release from this repetition of birth and death. That process is being described by Bhagavān Himself, that mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha. You have to increase your attachment for Bhagavān. Āsakta. Āsakta means attachment. You have to increase your attachment for Bhagavān. [break] …recommended process, you can understand Bhagavān. This process of increasing our attachment about God, or Kṛṣṇa, is called bhakti-yoga. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Mad-āśrayaḥ: "taking shelter of Me or taking shelter of My devotee." Mad-āśrayaḥ. That yoga is called bhakti-yoga. Mad-āśrayaḥ means "taking shelter of Me" or "taking shelter of the person who has taken shelter of Me."

So in this way if we execute bhakti-yoga, then asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi: [Bg. 7.1] you'll be able to understand God as He is without any doubt and in fullness. To understand Bhagavān fully means not only understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead but also understand what is Brahman, what is Paramātmā. In other words, if you understand Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, then you automatically understand what is Brahman, what is Paramātmā. [break] …the instruction of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

[SB 1.2.11]

So tattva-vastu, Absolute Truth, is observed from three angle of vision-Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān-but all of them are the same and one object. So simply by realization of Brahman, impersonal Brahman, is not perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth. Similarly, Paramātmā-jñāna is also not perfect knowledge of the Absolute Truth. When you understand fully the Personality of Godhead, then the knowledge is perfect. There will be no more doubt. Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1].

So let us take this opportunity of the statement by Kṛṣṇa how to understand God, and we may make our life perfect in that way. Because life's mission is to understand God. [break] …that the process is bhakti-yogam. Bhagavān also says in another place distinctly, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti… [Bg. 18.55]. (end)

770326LE.BOM

Lecture

Bombay, March 26, 1977

Prabhupāda: Ladies and Gentlemen, the very learned erudite scholarly speaking by our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara Singh must have created some impression in your mind, I am sure. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is full of scientific knowledge. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ pravakṣyāmy anasuyave [Bg. 7.2]. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna that "I am speaking to you knowledge, jñānam, sa-vijñānam, with scientific understanding." So "Why you are speaking to Me?" Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ pravakṣyamy anasuyave: "Because you are not envious. That is your qualification. You are very submissive student. Therefore I'll give you." So the dictation is coming from Kṛṣṇa, as Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara says. That's a fact. Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "I am situated in everyone's heart."

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

So we are creating our different position. Kṛṣṇa is situated within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe [Bg. 18.61]. He is pointing out, "Find out, hṛd-deśe, within the heart." Therefore the yogis, they try to find out Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The yogis' business is to find out Kṛṣṇa within the core of the heart. He is there. There are many places, explained.

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ

yena mām upayānti te

[Bg. 10.10]

So He is always prepared. Kṛṣṇa comes for this purpose, to give us the real knowledge. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. Why don't you take this opportunity? That is our lamentation. Especially in India, where Kṛṣṇa personally came, where He gave…, left behind Him so valuable instruction, Bhagavad-gītā, why you are refusing? Why you are misinterpreting and spoiling your life and spoiling others'? Don't do it. Take it very seriously. And as soon as we are engaged-teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]-as soon as we submit to Kṛṣṇa and serve Him, prīti-pūrvakam, with love and affection… Not officially. Kṛṣṇa understands everything, that who is worshiping Him with love and affection and who is worshiping Him for some material gain. Kṛṣṇa is nobody's servant. He cannot be order-supplier. You must be prepared to supply His order or to obey His order. Then prīti-pūrvakam: then He will give you instruction. What instruction? Yena mām upayānti: "Again come back home."

So last night we were speaking of the Bhāgavata śloka, that this life should not be spoiled like hogs and dogs. We must learn how to love Kṛṣṇa with love and affection and take instruction from Him to make our life successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some questions now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (kīrtana) [break] (end)

770401LE.BOM

Lecture

Bombay, April 1, 1977

Prabhupāda: …and shall remain up to eight. So our darśana and talks, if there is any, generally, every day it will be done. And on Sunday you can fix up some time. I will speak in the evening. And then Kṛṣṇa's desire, as He likes. For the time being, this arrangement.

So what is that verse? Divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. Just recite that. (Indians repeat) Before that. (prema-bhakti yāhā hoite, avidyā vināśa yāte) So the necessity is prema-bhakti. Prema-bhakti yāhā hoite, avidyā vināśa yāte, divya-jñāna. So what is that divya-jñāna? Divya means transcendental, not material. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. Divyam means we are combination of matter and spirit. That spirit is divya, transcendental. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā [Bg. 7.5]. That is parā prakṛti, superior. If there is the superior identity… And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jñāna. Divya-jñāna. And because guru enlightens that divya-jñāna, he is worshiped. That is required. The modern… Modern or always; this is māyā. That divya-jñāna is never, I mean to say, manifested. They are kept in the darkness of adivya-jñāna. Adivya-jñāna means "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," this is adivya-jñāna. Dehātma-buddhiḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri. I am not this body.

So the beginning of divya-jñāna is there when we try to understand that "I am not this body. I am superior element, I am spirit soul. This is inferior. So why should I remain in this inferior knowledge?" We should not remain in the inferior… Inferior knowledge means darkness. Tamasi mā. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't remain in the inferior knowledge." Jyotir gamaḥ. "Come to the superior knowledge." So to worship guru means because he gives us superior knowledge. Not this knowledge-how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and defend. Generally, the political leaders, social leaders, they give this knowledge-how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, how to defend. A guru has no business with these things. He is divya-jñāna, superior knowledge. That is required. This human form of life is an opportunity to awaken that divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. And if he's kept in darkness about that divya-jñāna, simply if he is trained up how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and to defend, then life will be lost. That is a great loss. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Very risky life if we do not awaken our divya-jñāna. We should always remember this. Very risky life-once again thrown into the waves of birth and death, we do not know where I am going. Very serious. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is divya-jñāna. It is not ordinary knowledge. Everyone should try to understand this divya-jñāna. Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritam. Therefore one who is interested in this divya-jñāna, he is called daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritam. From daivī, divya comes, the Sanskrit word. Sanskrit word, from daivī, divya, adjective.

So mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. One who has taken to this divya-jñāna process, he is mahātmā. Mahātmā is not made by stamping for receiving knowledge how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That is not the definition in the śāstras. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyante

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā…

[Bg. 7.19]

One who has got this divya-jñāna, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā, that is mahātmā. But that is very, very rare. Otherwise, mahātmā like me, they are loitering in the street. That is. So you should always remember this word, divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. And because the spiritual master enlightens the divya-jñāna, one feels obliged to him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasya prasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi **. So this guru-pūjā essential. As the Deity worship essential… It is not cheap adoration. It is the process of enlightening the divya-jñāna.

Thank you very much. (end)

000000LE.UN

General Lecture

(location & date unknown)

Prabhupāda: There also it is stated, what is the meaning of religion. First of all, in the Fourth Chapter the Lord says that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8], dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principles, then I descend or incarnate; I come." Yuge yuge sambhavāmi, ātma-māyayā. Ātma-māyayā. He is not forced to come here. This very word is used, ātma-māyayā. As we are forced to come here by our destiny, karma, adṛṣṭa, which we cannot see We have got different bodies in this assembly-men, women, different features, different mentality. Why? According to different karma in the past.

So karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. We act, and the result of the action is just by the superior authority, daiva-netreṇa. And then, according to that result, we accept a certain type of body. So there are many discussions about this karmavāda. But these are Vedic conclusions, according to karma. So this human form of life… I was speaking of the dharma. The dharma… Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, says that "I come down, I descend, I appear, for the reason to establish, reestablish"-not establish, reestablish-"to reestablish the principle of religion," yadā yadā hi, "whenever there is discrepancies."

Just like whenever there is misgovernment in the political world, there is some revolution; there is some change. People revolt against the administration that "We don't want this sort of government." As this is natural, similarly, whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principle-means the order, or the laws given by God-at that time God Himself comes or His representative comes to reestablish the religious principles according to the climate, country, people. That is going on, not only in the human society, but also in the animal society, bird society. That we understand from the Vedas.

So then what is religion? The religion is, as I have told you that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19], the order of the Lord, God. And what is that order? This is plainly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Simply be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Mana means consciousness. So "You be always Kṛṣṇa conscious." Bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "Become My devotee." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: "And worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru: "You namaskuru." You have to submit yourself somewhere. That is our nature. Nobody can say, "No. I don't submit to anyone." That is not possible. You have to submit. That is your position. Whatever you may be, you have to submit. So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ namaskuru: "Submit unto Me." Then what is the result? Mām evaiṣyasi: "Then you come back to Me," asaṁśayaḥ, "without any doubt." And in the last verse also, Kṛṣṇa concludes Bhagavad-gītā that "My dear Arjuna, I have spoken to you so many things-karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, bhakti-yoga-but you are My very dear friend, so I will give you the secret of success," sarva-guhyatamam, "most confidential part of My instruction." What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up everything. You simply surrender unto Me. That's all." Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [Bg. 18.66] "Dharma means the laws given by God." Now, what is this law? He says that "Don't manufacture religion. Even if you have manufactured, give it up." Sarva-dharmān parityajya. This sarva-dharmān includes all religious principles.

The human society has manufactured in Hindu society, Muslim society or Christian society, and there are so many… Buddha society… So, but Bhagavad-gītā says that "You can give up sarva-dharmān, all sorts of religious principles. You simply surrender unto Me." This is the position. Kṛṣṇa said in the beginning that "I come here to reestablish the religious principle." And what is that religious principle? To surrender unto Him. To surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. This is real religious principle. And in the Naimiṣāraṇya, when this Sūta Gosvāmī was asked what is the best religious principle, so, he replied, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: [SB 1.2.6] "It doesn't matter what is that religion. Any religion is first-class religion provided it gives you opportunity to develop your dormant love of God. That's all." You follow any religion; it doesn't matter. Either you become a Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, or so many other religions there are, but the test is that whether your religious principle is first class or third class or second class, the test will be whether you have developed your dormant love of God. That's all. If you are lacking in that, that you have not…, instead of developing your dormant love of God, you are developing your love for so many other things…

Caitanya Mahāprabhu has instructed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that just like when you seed some plants, there are…, some other plants also grow. So the gardener takes out the unnecessary plants in order to give impetus to the real plant to grow. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, following the principle that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19], that dharma means, religion means, the law enacted by the Lord… This is the law, that "You surrender unto Me." Kṛṣṇa says. Now, if you say that Kṛṣṇa is Indian God or Hindu God, oh, Kṛṣṇa, of course, does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ: [Bg. 14.4] "In any form of life, all the living entities…" It doesn't matter, even a human being or in the animal kingdom or lower than human beings, lower than animals, birds, beast, reptiles, aquatics. There are 8,400,000 species of life. Kṛṣṇa claims, sarva-yonisu: "All species of life, they are My sons." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "I am their father, supreme father."

So do not misunderstand that Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God or Indian. You just try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, this word, suggests… Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So when Kṛṣṇa was personally present on this planet… You know. Those who have read Kṛṣṇa literature, I think most of you know Bhagavad-gītā, such a nice philosophical presentation. Oh, there is no comparison in the world. That's a fact. Everyone-it doesn't matter if he is a scholar or if he is a serious student of religious principle or philosophy-he studies Bhagavad-gītā very seriously, in all countries. There are many varied editions of Bhagavad-gītā, and actually, the instruction is so high that it cannot be instructed by anyone else except the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Besides that, Kṛṣṇa proved Himself from His very childhood. When He was a small child on the lap of His mother, beginning from that, up to the time of His disappearance from this world, oh, He played everything just like God. There is no comparison. He… Those who have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they are acquainted with the activities of Kṛṣṇa. I am speaking this for people who are outside the scope of Vedic religion. Those who are in the Vedic religion, all of them, they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no doubt about it. So far our Vedic religion is concerned, the propounder of the Vedic religions in India still existing, still continuing, the ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, these ācāryas… The followers, the whole Hindu community or the whole Indian nation, they are followers of these ācāryas. Jarāsandha: "One must worship the principle of ācārya." Ācāryavān puruṣo veda: "One who has accepted ācārya, he knows what is knowledge." Ācāryavan puruso veda. In this way all the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So far the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas are concerned, namely, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, they would naturally, because they are Vaiṣṇavas…

Just like we. We belong to Madhvācārya. Our Gauḍīya-sampradāya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sampradāya, they belong to the Madhvācārya disciplic succession. Lord Caitanya's spiritual master was Īśvara Purī, and he was disciple of Mādhavendra Purī, and this Mādhavendra Purī was in the disciplic succession of Madhvācārya. Therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Madhvācārya. And this Madhvācārya-sampradāya is coming from Brahma. Therefore this sampradāya, disciplic succession, is known as Brahma-Madhva-Gauḍīya-sampradāya.

So naturally we accept Kṛṣṇa on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is natural. But, everyone, of course, has to accept Bhagavad-gītā and Vedānta-sūtra if he, I mean to say, presents himself as Vedic or Hindu. Hindu is the name, the modern name. Actually the Vedic name is the original name, or varṇāśrama-dharma. That is the original name. So, apart from Vaiṣṇavas, even Śaṅkarācārya, who is impersonalist, who is Brahmavadi, he also accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Those who have read Śaṅkarācārya's commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā, they must have seen it in the very beginning: sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. He begins his commentary, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktat: "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this material creation." And then he says, "That Nārāyaṇa is svayaṁ bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. And he has specifically mentioned that "He has appeared as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva." Beside that, he has written many songs and prayers about Kṛṣṇa. And at the last stage of his life he has written a very nice poem,

bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha mate

prāpte sannihite khalu marane na hi na hi rakṣati dukṛn-karaṇe

Because the Māyāvādī philosophers, they interpret Vedic mantras by grammatical jugglery, therefore Śaṅkarācārya has warned that "Your grammatical jugglery, this dukṛn-pratyaya, karaṇe, will not save you." Mūḍha-mate: "You foolish person, you kindly take shelter of Govinda." Bhaja govinda. So this is the verdict of all ācāryas. So our point is that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is nothing like manufactured religious principle. No. It is authorized. There is great background, all these, supported by all the ācāryas and summarized by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we have got immense literature to support this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But anyone who is reasonable, they will accept this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness as very simple. And it is actually very simple, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. And if you cannot surrender immediately, then… These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given you the easiest process, that you simply chant Kṛṣṇa's name, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Then everything automatically will develop.

How it will develop, that we began explaining yesterday, this Sūta Gosvāmī's instruction. He says, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. If you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa You can hear about Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. Kṛṣṇa has got so many activities. The whole Mahābhārata, the whole Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, all the Purāṇas, and especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is full of Kṛṣṇa's activities. So it is very relishing also. Just like we try to read stories and fiction ordinarily-people take pleasure in it-similarly, if you simply read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you will relish that fiction reading; at the same time, you will be transcendentally realized. The Parīkṣit Mahārāja, when he was hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he said that nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt [SB 10.1.4]. He admitted that "This kṛṣṇa-katha, narrations about Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa's activities, it is relished, it is discussed, by nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ means liberated person. Nivṛtti means finished, and tṛṣṇa, tṛṣṇa, hankering.

So long you are in the material existence of life, there is hankering and lamenting because this world is being conducted by the two energies… Now, one energy, material energy, threefold qualities, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa… Generally it is being conducted by the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. Rajas-tamo-bhava. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says, this Sūta Gosvāmī, that srnvatam sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. If you simply hear the activities of Kṛṣṇa, which is confirmed by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, that kṛṣṇa-kathā is relished by persons, nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ, who has transcended the three qualitative action and reaction of this material nature… Tṛṣṇa. Everyone who are materially situated, he has got hankering: "I shall become this great man," "I shall become this big businessman," "I shall become such politician," "I shall become such and such." Always, everyone is struggling. But this kṛṣṇa-kathā is relished by them who are above this hankering. And that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na socati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. This kāṅkṣa, this tṛṣṇa, the same thing… Kāṅkṣa means hankering. In the ordinary position we are hankering and lamenting, hankering to possess something, and if, somehow or other, that possession is lost, then you are lamenting, again hankering. These two features of the material life. So brahma-bhūtaḥ… Brahma-bhūtaḥ means one who is above these two principles, hankering and lamenting. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na socati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. If you become above these 8 qualities, material qualities, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman."

This is self-realization. So nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ means one who has realized his self. So Parīkṣit Mahārāja, also confirming that "This kṛṣṇa-kathā, these activities of Kṛṣṇa can be relished by persons who have are transcended this position of hankering and lamenting…" Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. They can actually understand. But what about the common man? The common man, he has also said, bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. If common men simply hear, then it will be very pleasing to their ears and to their heart. Chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. They'll be pleased simply by hearing. Generally, people therefore take to Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā. But one should not go so swiftly to the rasa-līlā because they will misunderstand. But there are so many other līlās of Kṛṣṇa. So you hear them. That is our program. We are giving chance to the people in general to hear about Kṛṣṇa. And this is our mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is this, that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra sarva deśa: "You just become spiritual master under My order." What is that order? That also He says, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128].' That's all. "You simply try to explain the kṛṣṇa-kathā." Kṛṣṇa-kathā means kathā, the words, given by Kṛṣṇa-that is Bhagavad-gītā, kathā-or kathā about Kṛṣṇa. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So these two messages you distribute to the whole world. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order.

So you may question, "What you are? What is your position?" Our… My position is that, that under the supreme order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in disciplic succession, I am just trying to preach this kṛṣṇa-kathā. That's all. I am not manufacturing anything. Don't think that I have manufactured something new, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No. That is not my business. My business is just like the peon. The orderly. The message from Caitanya Mahāprabhu as it is, I am delivering. That's all. And it is being effected because I am not adulterating in the kṛṣṇa-kathā. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja; [Bg. 18.66] I also say the same thing, that "You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So there is no doubt that I am really representing the interests of Kṛṣṇa because I am not adulterating. I am not misinterpreting the words of Kṛṣṇa. And it is being effective.

You can see that before me many Indians came in this Western world. They also preached about this Kṛṣṇa message or Bhagavad-gītā. Great scholars came. But you have to admit that before this, the Westerners never accepted this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they could not deliver as it is. Now they are accepting. And there is immense potency. I have studied. There is immense potency of accepting. They are actually looking after this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the Western people. The other day I was talking with our Indian high commissioner. He also happens to be very nice, learned man. He said that "Swamiji, yes, they are looking after, like this." So, so far material advancement is concerned, they have seen enough of it. Therefore, these youngsters, they are no more interested in the material advancement. They have tasted it.

The next stage is, as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, atha ataḥ brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the stage of their inquiry about Brahman. And that Brahman, Parabrahman, as it is confirmed by Arjuna when he understood Kṛṣṇa… First of all he took Him as his friend, but after explanation of Bhagavad-gītā, in the Tenth Chapter you will see, he is accepting, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So this brahma-jijñāsa, inquiry, is there. And kṛṣṇa-kathā is here. So everyone should join this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Simply he has to distribute this knowledge of kṛṣṇa-kathā as ordered by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then the result will be that, as it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, spoken by Sūta Gosvāmī, that śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Kṛṣṇa-kathā is so nice that even one does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, simply if he hears the vibration of this holy chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he will be pious man. He will be pious man-simply by hearing. It has got It is so effective. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Practically you are seeing. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam this is also confirmed, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is within you also, Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. So He is within you. As soon as He understands that you are very serious about Him, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then He will help you. And śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi.

Now, this abhadrāṇi, abhadra, the exact translation is "misbehavior," abhadra, "ungentlemanliness." Is that exact translation? If it is not, you can correct me. Abhadra, the Sanskrit word… Those who are Indians, they know this word, bhadra and abhadra. Bhadra, means noble and abhadra means ignoble. So hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi. These words of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, each word is so valuable that if you scrutinizingly abhadrāṇi, ignoble. What is that ignoble within our heart? That ignoble thing is claiming proprietorship on the property of God. That is the instruction in the Īśopaniṣad. Every one of us claiming, unceremoniously, proprietorship on other's property This is the business of the whole material world.

This nationality which is claimed so much valuable in the modern age, difference based on nationality, to test on this point, abhadrāṇi, this is most ignoble. We are eulogizing nationality so much, but actually, if you study these principles of nationality, it is most ignoble. Why? Because Īśopaniṣad says, Veda, that īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: [Īśo mantra 1] "Everything belongs to God." How you are claiming that "It is our" or "It is mine"? Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. What is not yours, you are claiming, "It is mine." Just like this body. This is also not mine. The nature has given me this body according to my karma. Just like the landlord has given me this house to live, but it is not my house. This is a fact. So if I live in this house and later on claim, "Oh, this is my house," the whole trouble begins. Similarly, everything which we are utilizing for our comforts, for our livelihood, everything is given by God. This body is given by God, the maintenance also given by God. You are maintaining this body by eating fruits, flowers, grains, or even meat. But who is supplying? You cannot create all these things in your machine-made factories. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He is supplying. This is God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So because we are in different consciousness, therefore everything is ignoble in our heart. So śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. These abhadra, these ignoble thoughts, claiming something which does not belong to me, is the most ignoble. But if you gradually give your attention in the matter of hearing kṛṣṇa-kathā, then Kṛṣṇa will help you how to wash off these ignoble things within your heart. Hṛdy antaḥ-sthaḥ. He is within your heart. When you are serious, then He will wash off all these ignoble things from your heart. Hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi. In this way, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can help the human society in all respect to become purified and thus live in peace and prosperity, we can have all this information from this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. And we shall request you that you come and join with us and discuss with us. If there is any doubt, just clear it up and take up this movement seriously to make the human society happy and prosperous. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances-break)

Guest (Indian man): If I am not mistaken, I think I heard that Kṛṣṇa reestablished religion, reestablished. Now who established before Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: When Kṛṣṇa was born, who was born before Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never born.

Guest: Kṛṣṇa was not born?

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest: Oh, that satisfies me very much. I was taught that…(indistinct)

Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ajo 'pi. Ajo 'pi: "I am never…" You are also not born, every one of us. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, spirit soul, so nobody is born. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Nobody takes birth; nobody dies." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "At any time." These things are there. And Kṛṣṇa, about Himself, He says, ajo 'pi: "Although I am unborn." Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san: "Although I am unborn." So Kṛṣṇa is never born. Just like in the morning there is sunrise. If you say the sun is born, that is mistake. Sun is seen. He is not born.

Guest: Yes, I understand. This Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Before Caitanya was who, Kṛṣṇa or anyone in between?

Prabhupāda: Before Caitanya? In the Kali-yuga… Kṛṣṇa was in the Dvāpara-yuga, and Caitanya was in the Kali-yuga.

Guest: So between Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa there was not anybody. And before Kṛṣṇa there was no one.

Prabhupāda: No, there were others also, before Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: Before Kṛṣṇa, who was?

Prabhupāda: Before Kṛṣṇa there was Lord Rāmacandra. Yes.

Guest: So Kṛṣṇa took the incarnation of Lord Rāmacandra.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He appears sometimes as Lord Rāmacandra, or as Lord Caitanya, or sometimes others, like that.

Guest: But with the name of Kṛṣṇa, He appeared after Rāmacandra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Guest: And I heard you also saying that Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes, Madhva. Madhvācārya sampradāya, yes.

Guest: He was disciple of. Now, was he born after Kṛṣṇa or…

Prabhupāda: No, he was born before… Who? Madhvācārya, you mean to say? He was born long, long before Lord Caitanya, after Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇa… Kṛṣṇa appeared on this planet five thousand years ago. Madhvācārya appeared about one thousand years.

Guest: One thousand years before. That means he appeared after Vyāsa, Śrī Vyāsa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vyāsa was contemporary to Kṛṣṇa. Vyāsa.

Guest: And Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.

Prabhupāda: Madhva… Not Madhvācārya directly. By his disciplic succession.

Guest: Yes. But Madhva was not a incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. A ācārya does not require to become incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Not always all the ācāryas are incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. No. They are devotees. They are devotees.

Guest: Yes. That means Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: But was a disciple of someone who was not incarnation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is possible. (Hindi) You were inquiring about Īśvara Purī, who was direct spiritual master of Lord Caitanya?

Guest: No. I thought because Lord Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa… [break]

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: So he would not have a guru or…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, yes. There is no difference between devotee and God. You see? Sometimes a devotee is given a greater place than God Himself. Mad-bhaktaḥ pūjābhyādhikaḥ. Just like Kṛṣṇa is God or Arjuna is devotee. So Arjuna is given superior place, to sit on the chariot, and Kṛṣṇa is driver of the chariot. That does not mean Kṛṣṇa has degraded from His position. Kṛṣṇa, or God, in any position, He is God.

Guest: But Kṛṣṇa was not disciple of anyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Whose disciple was Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: He was also disciple of Sandipani Muni. Everyone has to become disciple. That is the Vedic system. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet. Without becoming disciple, nobody can understand.

Guest: No, but Kṛṣṇa was Supreme God.

Prabhupāda: That not… Supreme God… But He was playing just like human being. Supreme God we know by His activities. But He played the part of human being. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: [Bg. 9.11] "Because I am playing just like ordinary human being, those who are foolish persons, mūḍha, less intelligent, they accept Me as ordinary man." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "They do not know the greatness behind Me. They do not know." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Mama bhūta-maheśvaram: "That I am the Supreme Lord." Because they do not know, therefore, simply by superficial observation, that "He is playing just like ordinary man," that "He is the chariot driver of Arjuna…" Now, somebody may say, "How Kṛṣṇa can be the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He was ordinary chariot driver of Arjuna. He was ordinary cowherds boy." Muhyanti yat sūrayayaḥ. Very great sages, great saintly persons, also sometimes become bewildered. But to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is explained also in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Not by learning, not by education, not by scholarship. Bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: "In reality what I am, that can be understood by the devotees, not by others." And in the beginning also, of the Bhagavad-gītā teaching, He said Arjuna that "I am teaching Bhagavad-gītā to you because you are devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My very dear friend and devotee. Therefore," rahasyam hy etad uttamam, "I am delivering this mystery of Bhagavad-gītā-yoga to you." So to understand Bhagavad-gītā requires that qualification: bhakto 'si. And similarly, on the Eighteenth Chapter, the Kṛṣṇa directly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. The brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is liberated stage from material contamination. But you have to develop further. In the liberated stage, if you shall be satisfied simply being brahma-bhūtaḥ, self-realized, understanding yourself as Brahman, that is not sufficient. You have to make further progress. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. When one has acquired these qualities, that he is no more, I mean to say, faltering in the matter of hankering and lamentation, and he is now on the transcendental stage of seeing every living entity on the equal level-samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu-at that stage one can enter into the devotional service. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. So bhakti is above the liberated stage of life. And bhakti, when, if one is fortunate enough to come to that stage, above the liberated stage, then bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55], then through that para bhakti, pure devotional service, one can understand Kṛṣṇa in reality, tattvataḥ. And in another place He said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of persons, somebody is interested for self-realization." Kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi. Siddhi. Siddhi-labha means perfection of human form of life. So nobody is interested. But there are some who are interested how to make this human form of life perfect. So, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhāṇām: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many persons who are actually engaged in the matter of that perfection of life," kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ, "somebody may know in reality what I am," because that reality can be understood by the devotee. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. He has not mentioned anything like jñānī or yogi or karmī. No. He has simply mentioned one thing, bhaktyā. And that is the process. (aside:) He is going. Give him prasāda. (Hindi) Give him prasāda, distribute. Yes.

Devotee: Distribute it now, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Guest (2) (Indian man): If Kṛṣṇa was not born, then what is the significance of that word, that sambhavāmi, dharma-samstha…

Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmi. That is not birth. Sambhavāmi means appearance. Appearance. Appearance.

Guest (2): But is it like sunrise?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gone outward… Just like when He appears you can see Him.

Guest (2): What about that Janmāṣṭamī? We observe all those things. What is the significance?

Prabhupāda: That sambhavāmi is taken as janma, just like when the sun appears we take it as the sunrise and we perform so many things, similarly. You please take some prasādam. Yes. Sit down. Please sit down. Take some prasādam. Here is… Sit down.

Guest (2): But the thing is Kṛṣṇa never came here with the…

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa appeared when… That Janmāṣṭamī, what you say… That you have to hear, about the Janmāṣṭamī, from Bhāgavatam. When Devakī was to give delivery of the child, at that time Kṛṣṇa appeared in Nārāyaṇa-mūrti before her. He never…

Guest (2): What about Gopāla-mūrti?

Prabhupāda: No. In Nārāyaṇa-mūrti. Nārāyaṇa-mūrti appeared, and then the Vasudeva and Devakī prayed for… Then they prayed for, that "My Lord, You have appeared. I can understand. Now, if You remain in this Nārāyaṇa-mūrti, then immediately Kamsa will come. Please take the form of an ordinary child." So He transformed into ordinary child and was lying down. So He appeared. Sambhavāmi. Sambhavāmi means appearance. And besides that, even He appears just like ordinary child, so that is also no birth. That does not mean Kṛṣṇa is nonimportant. He can appear in any way.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Nāhaṁ sarvasya prakāśaḥ yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ: "I am not visible to everyone. I am covered by the yogamāyā." (Hindi) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. That quality is bhakti. If you become bhakta, then you can understand bhagavat… (Hindi) Otherwise, it is not possible. (Hindi) (end)

Departure Talks

721005DP.LA

Departure

Los Angeles, October 5, 1972

Prabhupāda: Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. So we are worshiping the original person, Govinda. People are embarrassed to find out the cause of all causes. The scientists, the philosophers, they are embarrassed, the religionists. But we have got information of the original cause.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

There must be some cause. We do not accept anything as chance. No. There is no chance. There is cause. Everything has got cause. So the original cause is Kṛṣṇa. So our knowledge is perfect therefore. We know the cause. So you chant this mantra, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **, and you will be in full knowledge. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. In the Vedānta-sūtra, Vedic language, it is said, "If you know simply Govinda, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you know everything. All knowledge is perfect." So try to understand Kṛṣṇa; then all other categorical knowledge will be revealed. Spiritually, knowledge is revealed. By material senses we try to acquire knowledge, but that is always, remains imperfect. And if you receive knowledge from the original person, then your knowledge is perfect.

So we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to educate people in perfect knowledge. So we have got so many branches, and we have to travel and encourage them. So now I am going to the eastern hemisphere-from the western hemisphere to the eastern hemisphere. So I am going now in San Francisco. From there, I shall go to Hawaii, and then cross the international line, dividing East and West. Then we go to Manila, and therefrom we shall go to India. In Vṛndāvana we shall have Ūrja-vrata for one month. You also could observe ūrja-vrata here from the next Ekādaśī, one month. I have already instructed Karandhara to have a sky lamp and put candle in the evening to the Deity for one month. Each one, a small candle should… And then, after Ūrja-vrata, we have a big engagement in Hyderabad. And then in Bombay, then in Delhi. In this way. So in the meantime you go on with your work, hold the morning class, Bhāgavatam. Each verse try to understand scrutinizingly and worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Dress very gorgeously. Offer Them prasādam very gorgeously, and you take remnants of the foodstuff. So in this way keep yourself fit always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no chance for māyā to attack you.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

740715DP.LA

Departure Address

Los Angeles, July 15, 1974

Prabhupāda: So you are engaged in the service of Śrī Rādhā-Mādhava. He's present here. And I am very glad that you are doing very nice. Keep the standard. This Deity worship and chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra… Be always engaged in this business. It is a very important business. Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. Our mission is to go back to home, back to Godhead. So it is not very difficult thing. Very easy. But we do not want it. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, the matter is very simple. Kṛṣṇa says four things, that "Always think of Me…" Now, here is Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa, standing before you. Don't think that this is idol. No. Kṛṣṇa is present before you in that form to show you favor that you can handle with Kṛṣṇa. You can dress Him. You can give Him for eating. You can… To give you facilities. But Kṛṣṇa is here, and Rādhārāṇī is here. So He says, personally, that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto: "Always think of Me." So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa, and the impression is within your mind. As soon as you will close your eyes, you will see Kṛṣṇa within your heart. Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī is here, and if you see constantly, naturally the impression will be within your heart. So either you are in temple or outside the temple, you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa always-if you practice. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu [Bs. 5.38]. Those who are saintly persons, on account of love for Kṛṣṇa, they see always Kṛṣṇa within his heart. So this practice is not very difficult. It doesn't require M.A., Ph.D. education, or to become very rich or opulent. Nothing is required. Simply try to think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is one item. It is not very difficult. And become His devotee. That you are practicing. Devotee means to hear about Kṛṣṇa, to chant the glories of Kṛṣṇa, to think of Kṛṣṇa, to offer fruits and flowers to Kṛṣṇa. In this way, this is called devotional service. So to think of Kṛṣṇa and to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa is not at all difficult task. Then… Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: "Worship Me." So here is the chance for worshiping Kṛṣṇa. Ārā…, bhoga-ārātrika. Temple. Keep the temple very cleansed. Dress Kṛṣṇa daily. You also dress nicely, take your bath, be pure. So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "And just offer obeisances to Me." Even the child can do. They are doing it. It is not at all difficult. But simply by executing these four principles, Kṛṣṇa says, gives assurance, mām evaiṣyasi: "You come to Me." So our program is how to go back to home, back to Godhead, and the program is very simple. Some way or other, we have introduced this program in the Western countries, and you are so intelligent, you have very soon captured it. So stick to the standard; then your life is successful. It is not at all difficult. But don't deviate. Then you are pakka. Yes. Pakka means solid. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. If you remain solid in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the māyā cannot touch you. So that is my request.

So I am traveling all over the world. I am going to see how things are going in Dallas or New Vrindaban and another… So my touring is natural. I have started this movement. I want to see that it is going on nicely. So you kindly help me. Don't deviate. That is my only request. (starts to cry) Then you will remain solid.

Thank you very much. (end)

750218DP.MEX

Departure Lecture

Mexico City, February 18, 1975

Prabhupāda: (translated into Spanish by Hṛdayānanda) We left our home and father, and we are in this fallen material world, and we are suffering too much. It is exactly like a very rich man's son leaves home for independence and wanders all over the world, unnecessarily taking trouble. A rich man's son has nothing to do. His father's property is sufficient for his comfortable life. Still, as we have got examples now in the Western countries, many rich man's son becomes hippie, leaves home and unnecessarily takes trouble. Our position, our needs, we all living entities who are within this material world, is exactly like that. We have voluntarily come into this material world for sense enjoyment, and in sense enjoyment we have forgotten our supreme father, God. The material nature's duty is to give us simply miserable condition of life.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare

pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

means as soon as the living entity wants to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, without God, immediately he becomes under the clutches of māyā. This is our position. We are under the control of māyā, and we can get out of it also, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me he gets out of the control of māyā." We are, therefore, preaching all over the world Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, and teaching them how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and thus get out of the clutches of māyā. We have no other desire or ambition besides this. We plainly say, "Here is God. You surrender unto Him. You always think of Him, offer your obeisances. Then your life will be successful." But the people in general, they are exactly madmen. Simply for sense gratification, they are working so hard day and night.

So devotees are very sorry to see their plight. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "I am very sorry for these persons." Who are they? Tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. These rascals, vimūḍhan, they have created a civilization, gorgeous civilization. What is that? Just like in your country especially, a gorgeous truck for sweeping. The business is sweeping, and for that they have manufactured a gorgeous truck: "Gut, gut, gut, gut, gut, gut, gut." The sweeping can be done in hand. There are so many men. But they are loitering in the street, and a huge truck is required for sweeping. It is creating huge sound, and it is very dangerous also, but they are thinking, "This is advancement of civilization." Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said, māyā-sukhāya. Just to get relief from sweeping… There is no relief; they have got other troubles. But they are thinking, "Now we haven't got to sweep. It is a great relief." Similarly, a simple razor can be used for shaving, and they have got so many machines and, to manufacture the machines, so many factories. So in this way if we study, item by item, this kind of civilization is called demonic civilization. Ugra-karma. Ugra-karma means ferocious activities.

So there is no objection for the material comforts, but actually we have to see whether they are comforts or miserable condition. Therefore our this human form of life is meant for saving time to develop our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not meant for wasting unnecessarily, because we do not know when the next death is coming, and if we do not prepare ourself for the next life, then at any moment we can die, and we have to accept a body offered by the material nature. Therefore I wish that all of you who have come to join this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement live very carefully so that māyā may not snatch you from the hand of Kṛṣṇa. We can keep ourself very steady simply by following the regulative principles and chanting, minimum, sixteen rounds. Then we are safe. So you have got some information about the perfection of life. Don't misuse it. Try to keep it very steadily, and your life will be successful. This movement does not stop anything for comfortable life, but it makes regulated. So if we follow the regulative principles and chant sixteen rounds, that is our safe position. I think this instruction you will follow. That is my desire.

Thank you very much. (end)

750225DP.CAR

Departure Lecture

Caracas, February 25, 1975

Prabhupāda: (translated into Spanish by Hṛdayānanda) So I thank you very much for your kindly receiving me in this temple, and I was very happy. So my request is that you continue your devotional service very faithfully and rigidly, then in this life you will be able to see Kṛṣṇa face to face. That is a fact. So you follow the advice, as given by Rūpa Gosvāmī, utsāhāt. The first thing is enthusiasm, that "I must see Kṛṣṇa." You are seeing Kṛṣṇa. The Deity of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is not different. But even personally we can see. Simply we have to continue the enthusiasm. Enthusiasm means to take things very seriously, utsāhād dhairyāt, and patiently. Although we are determined to go back to home, back to Godhead, so we should patiently follow the rules and regulations. So these are the six principles: enthusiasm and firm determination and patience and executing the regulative principles, tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, and sato vṛtteḥ, means behavior must be very honest, no duplicity, and utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, and sato vṛtteḥ, dealing must be very honestly, no hypocrisy, tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt, sādhu-saṅga, and in the association of devotees. If you follow these six principles, namely enthusiasm, determination, patience, and executing the regulative principles and keep yourself honest and in the association of devotee, if you follow these six principle, then your success is sure.

So these are the six principle, positive. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "By following these six principle, success is assured." Similarly, there are opposite number. What is that? Atyāhāraḥ, eating too much. Atyāhāraḥ means eating too much or unnecessarily collecting too much. And prayāsaḥ. Prayāsaḥ means too much endeavoring for a thing, mean unnecessarily taking some anxiety. Don't do that. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsas prajalpaḥ, and talking nonsense, gossiping some subject matter which has no concern with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are accustomed to do that. We should avoid it. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. Niyamāgrahaḥ means the positive rules and regulation, simply make a show but not actually realize it. Niyamāgrahaḥ, laulyam, and to become very greedy, and jana-saṅgaś ca, and mixing with persons who are not devotee. These six things should be avoided, and the first things should be followed. Then your success in devotional service is sure. (Hṛdayānanda begins to translate and pauses) Prajalpaḥ, unnecessary gossiping. Just like people are wasting time taking one newspaper and talking for hours. These things should be avoided. And to associate with nondevotees. And greediness. These things should be avoided.

atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca

prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ

laulyaṁ jana-saṅgaś ca

ṣaḍbhir bhaktir pranaśyati

[NoI 2]

If you indulge in these six items, then your devotional service will be finished. And the first six principles means,

utsāhād dhairyād niścayāt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt

sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge

ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati

By these six principles, you will advance, and the other six principles, you will fall down.

So under the guidance of your leaders in this temple, especially Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, and if followed… One life, just take little trouble. It is no trouble; it is very happy life. But because we are accustomed to these material habits, we think it is trouble. No. It is not trouble. It is very pleasing. Su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is… "To execute devotional service is very pleasing." I think…

Thank you very much for your… (end)

750312DP.LON

Departure Lecture

London, March 12, 1975

Prabhupāda: …where he is? Oh, you have dressed? Very nice. Thank you.

śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-

śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau

yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

So this is one of the items, to learn how to decorate the Deity, śrī-vigraha. Śrī means goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī. Kṛṣṇa is always associated with Lakṣmī. Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is the original goddess of fortune, and as all other Viṣṇu-mūrti, Nara… Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. Kṛṣṇa is always existing-tiṣṭhan means existing-with many other forms simultaneously: Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha and Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu. So Viṣṇu and Nārāyaṇa is… There are many expansion. You have seen on the cover of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There are different planets, and each and every planet there is the predominating Deity, Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu. They have got different names. So He is always associated with His eternal consort as well as devotees, many thousand, millions, in the spiritual world. In the material world… The creation of the material world is one-fourth demonstration of the whole creation, and this is one of the universes. In the material world there are innumerable universes. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was requested by one of His devotee that "Sir, You have come. You just liberate all the residents of this universe, and that will make me very happy. And if You think they are so impious they cannot be liberated, then I am ready to take up their sinful activities. But You take them away," at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "Even one universe is liberated, still there are so many universes. This universe is just like one mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds." So just imagine how many universes are there. All these together, that is one-fourth energy demonstration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. It is only one-fourth of the demon…, manifestation. The three-fourth manifestation-in the spiritual world. So just imagine God's creation. It is inconceivable by us, but we can learn it by śravaṇam. That is the only way. We, even in this material world, in this universe, we have heard of so many planets, but it is not possible to go and see. They cannot go even in the moon planet, and still, they are very much proud of their advancement of knowledge. So we cannot understand even. But if we patiently hear from the right source, then we can, may have some…, we may have some conception. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Bhāvaḥ, or svabhāvaḥ, or nature, there is another nature. So we have to hear. By hearing… This is the beginning of bhakti, śravaṇam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. We have to hear, and after hearing, we have to repeat. That is called kīrtanam. So in this way there are nine different processes, you know. Navadhā bhakti.

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

[SB 7.5.23]

So because these activities, devotional activities, are on the spiritual platform, all of them are Absolute. It is not that if you are hearing but you are not chanting, then your result will be little less than the other who is hearing and chanting. No. It is Absolute Truth. Just like if you taste a sugar candy, lump of sugar candy, from any side you taste, the sweetness is there. There is no difference, that if you taste this side, then it is more sweet than the other side. Kṛṣṇa is complete Absolute Truth. So any side. If you become expert in hearing, that is as good as one is engaged in other eight processes or nine processes. That is stated in the śāstra. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. He simply listened. He did not do any other process. Śrī-viṣṇu-śravaṇe parīkṣit. They got liberation simply by executing one of the nine different processes. So śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Parīkṣit Mahārāja got liberation simply by hearing. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he got liberation simply by chanting. And similarly, Prahlāda Mahārāja, he got liberation simply by memorizing, smaraṇe; Lakṣmījī, simply by serving the lotus feet of Nārāyaṇa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is in the absolute platform. There is no relativity. In the temple worship, as there are so many different duties-one is worshiping directly the Deity, decorating the Deity, and the other is washing the temple-it does not mean that the one who is cleansing the Deity, he is less important than the person who is in the temple room, Deity room. No. Because it is absolute. The Deity… As the Deity is important, similarly, the floor of the temple is also important, same importance, because absolute. So in executing our devotional service we are engaged in different duties. Somebody is cooking. Somebody is decorating the Deity. Somebody is cleansing the floor. Somebody is going to sell books. Somebody is doing something. Everything-nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe, in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Because the relationship is there with Kṛṣṇa, then every activity which you are doing, that is complete. There is no such material distinction. Just like here in the material world somebody is sitting in the office chair and somebody is cleansing the office, so the cleaner is supposed to be lower than the officer, but in the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Kṛṣṇa, with Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual world. In Vṛndāvana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Kṛṣṇa on equal terms. They do not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They simply know how to love Kṛṣṇa, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Kṛṣṇa is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Kṛṣṇa wants that. That is Goloka Vṛndāvana worship. Simply the center is Kṛṣṇa, and all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, they love Kṛṣṇa, and they do not know anything except Kṛṣṇa. This is Vṛndāvana life. Everyone knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Kṛṣṇa is my son," somebody knows that "Kṛṣṇa is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Kṛṣṇa is my lover." But center is Kṛṣṇa. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gopīs, and the cowherds boy, Kṛṣṇa's father, Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa's mother, Yaśomatī, and… Everyone's center is Kṛṣṇa, "How Kṛṣṇa will be happy?" This is Vṛndāvana life. If we try to follow the footsteps of the residents of Vṛndāvana, how to love Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful.

That is the recommendation of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Premā pum-artho mahān. Pum-artho means puruṣārtha, or the goal of life. The goal of life in the material world, generally, not for the animals but for the human being, the goal of life, generally-religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and liberation. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]. Some people are interested to become pious, religious, because by becoming pious and religious their economic development will be automatically there. And some of them are interested in simply in economic development for satisfaction of the senses. And some of them-they are considered to be the topmost-interested in liberation. But a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee, he is not interested in either of these four items. He is interested how to love Kṛṣṇa. That is pure devotion. That is paneama-puruṣārtha (?). So people do not know it. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. People do not know it generally. If one is very pious man, he wants to be religious, moralist, religious. And others, karmīs, they are interested how to develop economic position. And others, they are simply interested in sense gratification. This is material world. And when these materialistic persons are disgusted, then they want liberation. Their liberation means to become one, merge into the existence of the Supreme. That is not very difficult. They give the example that the water mixes with the vast mass of water, and they become one. But that is not the fact. You can make an experiment that you take a little red water and put it in the ocean. The ocean does not become red. So chemically also, the water, they are composition of molecules of water. But it is mixed with water. That is a fact, but there is another process which evaporates the water. Suppose you are mixed with the water. The Māyāvādī philosophy, that "We… Let us mix with the big water. Then I become big…" Because here in the material world he tried to become big in so many ways but he could not become big, therefore he wants to merge into the biggest, Brahman, so that he thinks that he will become… He is already Brahman. So the Brahman effulgence is combination of so many sparks of living entities.

So this philosophy, to merge into the big Brahman, Supreme Brahman, or effulgence, brahmajyoti, that is not very secure position. It is said in the śāstra that āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ: [SB 10.2.32] they fall down. We have seen that many Māyāvādī philosophers or sannyāsīs, they give up this world as mithyā, false, but after some time, they again come to this false material world for some philanthropic work, humanitarian work, because they could not get Kṛṣṇa. If you have left this world as false, then why you are coming again to give service to the world? No. They could not get. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32]. Paraṁ padam means Brahman. Patanty adhaḥ: "They fall down." Why? Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ: "Because they neglected the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa." They did not get any shelter. Just like if you go very high in the sky but if you don't get a shelter, then again you come back. Just like these moon-planet-goers, they attempted many times jumping, but they could not get any shelter. They have come back again. Now they have I think left off. What is that? "Grapes are sour." After jumping, jumping, the jackal, when he could not get the grapes, then he says that "Grapes are sour." That is… (laughter) "No need." So these so-called scientists, after jumping like the jackal, could not get any place in the moon planet, and they have come down again. It is not possible. You cannot go to any of the planets, although they are material. You cannot… Just like you cannot go to any country without getting the visa permit, similarly… There are many planets. They are open for your entrance, but not in that way, that by force you will go. That is not possible.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You have to qualify yourself to enter into such planets. They are called heavenly planets. You cannot enter by force. Therefore we are conditioned. We are not free. We are conditioned. We should always remember that we are conditioned by the material nature. We cannot… We are not free. We are not independent. That we are forgetting. At the present moment the trained-up civilization is that everyone is thinking that he is independent, he can do whatever he likes, he can manufacture his own process of religious principles. These maddened ideas are there. No. Religious principle you cannot manufacture. Just like law. You cannot say that "I will manufacture my own law." No. That is not possible. Law means state's law, and you have to abide by that. That is law. You cannot avoid it. You cannot say that "I won't accept the state laws. I will make my own laws." That is not possible. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the laws and the regulation given by God. That is dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is real dharma. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra: "In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all cheating types of religious principle is rejected." The real dharma is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is real dharma. And any religion which does not teach this principle, to surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa, and love Him… hat is real religion. Therefore Bhāgavata teaches that real religion, Bhāgavata-dharma. And Bhāgavata declares in the beginning that "All cheating type of religious system is rejected, kicked out." Projjhita. Projjhita means just like you wash your floor or sweep your floor and collect the dust and throw it away, similarly, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the unwanted so-called religious system, they have been collected and thrown away. Here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is only one religious system, which is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā in the last chapter, Eighteenth Chapter, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If we accept this principle, then we enter into the Bhāgavata-dharma. Otherwise there is no entrance in the Bhāgavata-dharma.

For the Māyāvādī who wants to become one with the Supreme… You can become one. One means the same thing, a small portion of the water. But our philosophy is not to mix up with the water superficially but enter into the water and live there like fish, big, big fish. That is our philosophy. What is the use of becoming one with the water? Go within the water and live there like a whale fish, perpetually. That is our philosophy. So that is secure philosophy, because as soon as actually you become a big fish within the water, there is no question of evaporation. But if you live, remain superficially on the water, then you will be evaporated again and again thrown outside, then again come as river. So your coming and going, repetition of birth and death, will not stop. But one should become a big fish, there is no evaporation. These things are explained in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu by Rūpa Gosvāmī. So don't be misled by this Māyāvāda philosophy, that you fall into the water. Tohe janame punaḥ tohe visarata (?). They say that "Enter into the Supreme." You can enter, but what is the benefit? You will be again evaporated. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Because living entity by nature is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), by nature they want pleasure, every one of us. Every one of us, we are struggling so hard. Why? To get some pleasure. Nobody is trying so hard to making suicide. Is anybody there in this material world who is working so hard for ultimately making suicide? No. Everyone is trying to become happy. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Because he wants. That is his nature, sat-cit-ānanda: eternal life, full of knowledge and full of bliss. This is real life. So if we simply accept eternity like the Māyāvādīs, then what about the other two items? Or if we simply live in knowledge… Suppose theoretically I know so many things to prepare-rasagullā, sandeśa, halavā, kachorī-but if I do not practically taste what is halavā, what is kachorī, then what is the use of simply having knowledge? So the Māyāvādī philosophy like that, jñāna, simply knowledge. That knowledge is there in the Bhagavad-gītā in the beginning, the first lesson: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam [Bg. 2.13]. "Within the body there is the soul. That soul is eternal." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Na jāyate na mriya… This is the first lesson, that "I am Brahman. I am spirit soul. I am eternal. I do not die even after the annihilation…" This is the first lesson. It doesn't require much time, that we have to devote our whole life to understand that "I am Brahman." It can be understood even by a child. It is not very difficult. But how to engage myself as Brahman, that requires education. That is,

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

[SB 7.5.23]

So these things begins after self-realization. Otherwise, why one should be interested about Viṣṇu, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ? One is interested, "What is the report of the share market?" That's all. He should hear that? No. The śāstra says, "No. You should hear about Viṣṇu only." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that "You hear about Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, and not anybody else. There are so many politicians, big, big other materialistic person. We can hear about him. Just like people are reading the biography of big, big politicians and spoiling their time. We are not interested. We are not interested. We are interested only to hear about Viṣṇu. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are inter… So many biographies are there. People are interested. But our literature… We have published so many, about fifty books-only on Kṛṣṇa. That's all, nothing else. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. These three processes is going on. The publication means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Or smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. They are of Viṣṇu. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Stick to this principle. Don't try to hear anything else. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ.

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo

yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api

nāmāny viṣṇu-yaśo 'ṅkitaṇi

śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ

[SB 1.5.11]

And, on the other hand, na tad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta kar…, na pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. To the devotees, a literature, a so-called literature, very nicely written, with decorated words, metaphorism and these things… Tad-vāg-visargo, na tad vacaś citra-padam, very nicely, literally very nicely decorated, na tad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo na pragṛṇīta karhicit, but there is no mention about Kṛṣṇa and His glories… Just like especially in the Western countries you have got newspaper, big, big bunch of newspaper, but not a single line is there about Kṛṣṇa, not a single. So for the devotees this kind of literature is compared with the garbage. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. Just like vāyasam, crows. The crows gather together where? Where everything nuisance thrown away, they gather together. You will find. That is the nature amongst the class of bird. Where all nasty things are thrown away, the crows will gather. The another bird, swans, they will not go there. The swans will gather in a very nice garden with clear water, lotus flower, and birds, and singing. They will gather there. As there are… By nature, there are different classes of animals, even in the birds, beasts. "The birds of the same feather flock together."

So where the crows go, the swans do not go. And where the swans go, the crows have no access. Similarly, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for the swans, not for the crows. So try to remain swans, rāja-haṁsa or paramahaṁsa. Haṁsa means swan. Even if we have got this little place, don't go to the place of the crows, the so-called clubs, restaurant, brothel, dancing club, and… People are… Especially in the Western countries, they are very much busy with these places. But don't remain crow. Become swans simply by this process, chanting and hearing about Kṛṣṇa. This is the process, to remain paramahaṁsa. Dharma-projjhita-kaitava atra nirmatsarāṇām. Dharma-projjhita-kaitava atra paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. This Bhāgavata-dharma, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇām. Matsara, matsarata. Matsara means envy. I am envious of you. You are envious of me. This is material world. Just like so many envious persons are there in this quarter, simply lodging complaint against us. We have got good experience of this. So the Bhāgavata-dharma is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇām. Matsarata means one who cannot endure or can tolerate others' advancement. That is called matsarata. That is the nature of everyone. Everyone is trying to advance more. The neighbor is envious: "Oh, this man is going ahead. I could not." This is… Even if he is brother, even if he is son, this is the nature of the… So therefore this Bhāgavata-dharma is not meant for such persons, who are envious. It is meant for the paramo nirmatsarāṇām, who has given up this envy or envious attitude ultimately. Now, how it is possible? It is possible only when you have learned how to love Kṛṣṇa. Then it is possible. Then you will see that "Everyone is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. So he is suffering for want of his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let me speak something about Him, about Kṛṣṇa. Let me give some literature to him about Kṛṣṇa so that one day he will come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become happy." This is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇam process. We should ourself also continuously hear from authoritative literature, person, and continuously go on chanting the same thing, repetition. That's all. Then everything will be happy atmosphere. Otherwise the crows assembly in the garbage will continue, and nobody will be happy.

Thank you very much. (end)

750620RC.HAW

Conversation

Hawaii, June 20, 1975

Prabhupāda: So why not serve the supreme strong (?)?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Nūnaṁ mahatāṁ tatra. Mahat means bigger and more powerful, and nunam means there are less powerful. So everyone is less powerful than God. Then why don't you serve God? That is the perfection. You have to serve somebody strong. You cannot avoid it. Just study all status of society, animal society or human society. The law is that the stronger is dominating the weaker. That is the law. You cannot avoid it. So wherefrom this idea came unless it is in God? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. All ideas come from the Supreme. That is the law, that the strong predominate over the weak. So who can be stronger than God? So this is our natural position, to serve God.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. And He is a nice master.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect master. Even without becoming master He is providing everything. Even though those who do not accept Him, He is also giving them. So what to speak of those who have accepted Him? This is very simple philosophy. It is His position to accept service. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. It is good for the person who surrenders. Kṛṣṇa doesn't require your service. When He says, "You surrender to Me," it does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is suffering for your service. Kṛṣṇa is self-sufficient. He can create millions of servants like you. So He doesn't require your service. But if you serve, then it is your benefit. You become saved: "Now I am under the protection of a very able…" [break] …and every respect, opulence of master. You are serving cats and dogs. Why not serve the most supreme, able and opulent master? This is going on. You have to serve. You cannot say, "No, no. I will not serve. I am independent." That is not possible. You have to serve. You have to serve, and you will be exploited, by the imperfect masters. So why not serve the perfect master so that you will not be exploited again? It is simple.

Siddha-svarūpa: [break] …being servants, but we're…

Prabhupāda: You have to serve. If you do not serve, the strong will force you to serve.

Siddha-svarūpa: And it's the most horrible service, too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now this, as you say that the Hawaiians, they are meant for cleansing the hotel to get some money. And without money, he cannot live. So he forced to serve. What are the tanks? Petrol?

Siddha-svarūpa: I think so. Yeah. Shell Oil.

Prabhupāda: [break] Therefore the good intelligence is kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśān teṣāṁ mayi na karuṇā jātā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ: "I have served. I have served the so-called master. Actually I have served my senses." As they come to the hotel for sense gratification and do all nonsense and I have to serve him, so why I am serving? Oh, that is also for serving my senses. Without money I cannot serve my senses.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. So that's ultimately the problem.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Ultimately the problem, that we have to serve, and ultimately we have to serve our senses. Senses means lusty desires, kāmādīnām. Kāma means lust.

Siddha-svarūpa: Addicted.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. Kāma means lusty. Krodha means anger. If my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then I become angry. Then I have to serve anger. Kāma, krodha. Then I become more greedy. Kāma krodha lobha. Then I become illusioned, moha. Then I become envious. In this way I have become implicated. So this service of this material world means I become more and more implicated. Therefore a devotee says, "My Lord, now I have got sense." What is that sense? "Now I am meant for service, I have rendered service, but nobody has become happy, either the master or myself. Therefore now I have got intelligence: why not serve You? You are the supreme master. So I have come to You. Please engage me in Your service." This is full surrender. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ. By serving this material objective, there is no peace. Everyone is unhappy although they are rendering service and taking service. This is going on, but nobody is happy because this is artificial. Real service… Unless the thing comes to the real point, there is no peace. Here everyone is trying to become master, and everyone wants to avoid service. But by the nature's law, one has to become servant and render service. Going on. Conglomeration. Kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās teṣāṁ mayi na karuṇā jātā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ. [break] (end)

750627DP.LA

Departure Conversation

Los Angeles, June 27, 1975

Rāmeśvara: …sketch for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: It is very basic. But this will be the cover of the Antya-līlā, volume two. It is a scene of all of the devotees at a big feast, and Lord Nityānanda is there, and Lord Caitanya is invisible except to a few devotees.

Prabhupāda: Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī's feast.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. So the questions they have are: While Lord Nityānanda is inducing all the devotees to chant, can some of the devotees be paying their daṇḍavats to Lord Nityānanda at that time? And the other question is: Although Lord Caitanya cannot be seen, except for a few devotees…

Prabhupāda: No, only Nityānanda.

Rāmeśvara: Nityānanda only. But can He be shown also with His hand upraised in the air?

Prabhupāda: No. Why?

Rāmeśvara: Well, they want to make Lord Caitanya very prominent, because this will be on the cover of the book.

Prabhupāda: You can make it, visible, invisible. Visible, invisible.

Rāmeśvara: You instructed that they should not paint Lord Caitanya transparent even though He's invisible. Just like in the Gītā, when Arjuna saw the universal form, it was painted very solid all over.

Prabhupāda: Arjuna saw solid; others did not.

Rāmeśvara: But whenever it says that Lord Caitanya cannot be seen, still, we should paint Him solid?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Cannot be seen is not that.

Rāmeśvara: Well, invisible except to the eyes of Nityānanda Prabhu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]

Rāmeśvara: …and nine volumes of Madhya-līlā, and five volumes of Antya-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then three…

Rāmeśvara: Seventeen volumes just of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. And then about five volumes of Fifth Canto.

Prabhupāda: Twenty-two volumes. So instead of seventeen, you have to print twenty-two.

Rāmeśvara: Four are printed.

Devotee: Four are already printed.

Rāmeśvara: So that leaves eighteen. But we will have it all out to the printers by Janmāṣṭamī.

Prabhupāda: Janmāṣṭamī?

Rāmeśvara: End of August.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jayatīrtha: And when will it start coming back from the printers, Rāmeśvara?

Rāmeśvara: Well, I think that… [break]

Prabhupāda: …Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, anywhere you go, scholarly circle, university man, they will take. They will take. Any part of the world, it will be taken.

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Madhya-līlā it describes Lord Caitanya taking His tour in the south of India. So I was thinking that there are so many photographs.

Prabhupāda: You can insert.

Rāmeśvara: In the middle of the book we will have an insert just of the places Lord Caitanya visited.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: It will be like a bonus for those books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temples in South India, yes. Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. As you want to serve, He will give you more intelligence. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānām. Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam.

Rāmeśvara: It depends on Nitai working fast.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: With the books coming out at one time, even the devotees cannot afford to buy them all. Seventeen books at one time, Jayatīrtha! Most of the temples don't read Caitanya-caritāmṛta as part of their regular study. They usually read the Bhāgavatam in the morning…

Prabhupāda: Let them read whatever they like. Let them read. They must read something. [break]

Rāmeśvara: …story of Choṭa Haridāsa. I was very surprised to find that his talking with that woman was actually for the service of Lord Caitanya. It says that he went to an advanced devotee's house to get some rice.

Prabhupāda: No. It is not that. There was some young woman sitting there, and he glanced over her with lusty desire, not that old woman.

Rāmeśvara: That was her sister? Or daughter.

Prabhupāda: No. Daughter, granddaughter maybe. She was a very old lady.

Rāmeśvara: In that same volume of Antya-līlā there is a very elaborate description of Rūpa Gosvāmī being inspired to write his different plays, and I was thinking that in that book we could print the pictures of the Rādhā-Dāmodara temple which he founded. He established that temple. And also the bhajan-kutir of Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Prabhupāda: You have got the photo.

Rāmeśvara: We have very nice pictures of both those places. Because so much of the book is describing Rūpa Gosvāmī's writings…

Prabhupāda: Everything of Rūpa Gosvāmī. We are called rūpānuga, "strictly following the footstep of Rūpa Gosvāmī." Rūpānuga-varāya te. And our Guru Mahārāja was…, rūpānuga-viruddhāpasiddhānta-dhvānta-hāriṇe: "Anything against the plan of Rūpa Gosvāmī, not accepted." Rūpa-raghunātha-pade yāra āśa, caitanya-caritāmṛta kahe kṛṣṇadāsa. What are these flags?

Jayatīrtha: They're flags, I think, of different nations. This is international airport. So they put so many flags, of all friendly countries. Russian flag, Chinese flag are not there. [break]

Prabhupāda: …by United? No.

Brahmānanda: Continental. DC 10. [break]

Rāmeśvara: …spoke to Ambarīṣa dāsa yesterday, and he said he will make a plan to come and visit Your Divine Grace in Denver because he is so close by.

Brahmānanda: He's in Wyoming now?

Rāmeśvara: Wyoming, finishing up some business there. [break]

Prabhupāda: …parking car?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. In Los Angeles there's one car for every 1.3 people. Seven million cars for ten million people.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is the largest number?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. Biggest car population in the world. Biggest smog problem. [break]

Prabhupāda: Where is your mother? Where is your father?

Nandinī: Agnideva's at New York.

Rāmeśvara: We're going to send Nandinī to Māyāpur, to go to Gurukula in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Will you go to Māyāpur?

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: With your mother or alone?

Nandinī: I don't know. I don't know… (end)

Philosophy Discussions

Discussions with Syāmasundara dāsa

LEIBNITZ.SYA

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz. Leibnitz was a great mathematician. He invented the calculus. But he was also a philosopher. He said that in the universe every act is purposeful; that the purpose of the universe is to realize the goals set forth by God.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. I see that he's first-class. Yes. Actually the aim is to reach God. That is the Bhāgavata version: na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, fools, they do not know that the goal is to reach God. This version, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Durāśayā means they are hoping something which is never to be realized. All these people… [break] Actually this is the point: surrender. But they are so rascal they will not do it; therefore māyā is giving them trouble in every way, ultimately. Just like my Guru Mahārāja's plan was that I should come and preach. That was his first instruction. But I wanted that I will not take sannyāsa and remain as a gṛhastha, and then I shall do it. That is special favor. Kṛṣṇa says, yasya anugṛhnī harisye… "Especially if I am very much anxious to get one reformed, by My mercy, the first thing is that I take away all his money."

Śyāmasundara: Where is this stated?

Prabhupāda: It is in Bhāgavata. This question was raised by Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. So sometimes that is special favor. By force the whole plan is like that, but everyone wants to delay. By special favor he draws by force, "Come on. This time." Because that is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that a rascal, he wants Kṛṣṇa, or he wants God, but at the same time he wants to enjoy this material world, because to want God means finish with material world. But sometimes he is both ways. When Kṛṣṇa sees the other way is hampering, He breaks his profit by force, so that in helpless condition. Everything is explained in the Bhāgavata. "I take away his all money. He may try to get money-again I take. So in this way, when he becomes hopeless and there is no money, then he surrenders to Me." And as soon as he has no money, his so-called relatives, friends, wife, children, they neglect, "Oh, what is this man? He is useless." So he is bereft of money, he is bereft of friends, bereft of any love from wife and children, then hopelessly he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. So the plan is that: all these rascal living entities, those who are trying to be happy in this material world, nature's plan is to give him trouble-every attempt shall be frustrated, every attempt shall fail-so that he may come, after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 7.19]. So He has pointed out that there is a plan, and this is the plan: to bring you back to home, back to Godhead. It is not partial, that somebody may remain here and somebody may go to Godhead. No. The whole plan is that everyone must come back. But he is obstinate, he is obstinate. Just like a bad boy, father says, "Come on," he's not. He's crying, "No, I'll not go." But the father's only business is to drag him. Therefore the final, after speaking all the proposals in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says finally, "I am giving you final, very confidential instructions," sarva guhyatamam. "You give up all this rascaldom, arguing with Me. Just surrender unto Me." Arjuna was arguing. "Just surrender unto Me. That is your business. If you think you will be sinful by killing your… I will give you protection." Therefore, before citing this verse He says, "I am speaking to you most confidentially." That means unless one is very sincere to God, he does not heed the final confidential instruction. "All right, you go on with your own work." But to show Arjuna special favor, He says that "I am talking to you now the most confidential instruction. I have talked to you about karma, jñāna, yoga, and so many things, but the most confidential thing is this: that you fully surrender to Me. I will give you all protection."

Śyāmasundara: He explains the mechanistic phenomena, like the laws of nature. He explains that that is the only effective means of fulfilling God's purpose.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. All the laws of nature are working (indistinct). The body is durgā, the superintendent of the fort. This is called durgā. Just like fort is very much fortified; you cannot go; they say nobody can enter, nobody can leave, like that. This is called durgā. And the superintendent is called Durgā. From durgā it has come to Durgā. She is also confidential maidservant of Kṛṣṇa, but she has got (indistinct) to punish these demons. Demon is (indistinct), that I worship his mother, but mother is engaged to punish him because (indistinct). She is giving whatever the demon wants. "Give me money. Give me good wife. Give me reputation. Give me strength." "All right," but at the same time everything is frustrated with this (indistinct). Two things are going on. One thing, that whatever he wants he is given: "I will get it." On the other side, punishment. This is nature's flow, and she is doing this under the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. "This living entity, he has, or he wants immediately to become an enjoyer, so give him all sources of material enjoyment, but at the same time go on punishing him." Just like sometimes politicians give them everything (indistinct) military force. So that is going on. And this nature is working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā, (Sanskrit). Durgā, the goddess of the fortress of the material world, she is so powerful that she can create such things, she can maintain cities, (indistinct) she has got all the power. (indistinct), she is so powerful. Her name is Durgā. But (indistinct), but she is working just like a shadow. Shadow is called not independent-moving. Here is shadow; I move this hand, then it is moving. She is called (indistinct). But the movement is from Kṛṣṇa. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti (Sanskrit). All our activities are just like shadows. Icchānurūpam (Sanskrit). She is working under the direction of Govinda. Therefore, "I worship Govinda, the cause of all causes." This is stated in Brahma-saṁhitā.

So these rascals, foolish, they are thinking material nature is for our enjoyment. That is the materialistic view. There is a flower. "Nature has produced this flower for me. Everything is for me." Just like in the Bible, Jesus Christ says the animals are given under the protection of man. So they are thinking, "They are given to us for eating. God has given." Suppose I entrust Brahmānanda Swami that you give him protection, but if you think, "He's in my protection. I can eat him…" How intelligent! How magnanimous! They are giving protection by eating. And the Māyāvādī philosophers support them, that when they eat animals, Vivekananda's philosophy, "So what is there? I am Brahman, he is Brahman, so we become united." What is that? And I ask him, "Why don't you go to the tiger Brahman?" Because they are thinking that he is Brahman, the goat is Brahman, so when the man Brahman eats the goat Brahman, they unite. So why don't you unite with the tiger Brahman? This is rascaldom. They are all rascals. Anyone who has no trace of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is a rascal. There is our challenge. (indistinct) He may be great philosopher, religionist-he is a rascal, degree only. Cent percent rascal, or maybe ninety percent rascal, or seventy percent rascal, but they're all rascals. The same example: stool, this side and that side. Because the upside of stool is dried up, you cannot say, "It is very nice." And they're all stool. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, who does not know the science of Kṛṣṇa, he's useless.

Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz believed that truth could be represented by symbols and made into an exact science, a mathematical science of symbols. He founded the school of symbolic logic.

Prabhupāda: What is that, symbol? What is the symbol of a good man, and what is the symbol of a bad man? We have got the symbol. If one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is good man. If he is not, he is bad man. That is our symbolic representation.

Śyāmasundara: He is talking more about mechanistic truths, scientific truths, laws of nature…

Prabhupāda: But this is also scientific truth. Just like, according to Vedic scripture, this black body is a sign of sinful life. Therefore brāhmaṇas are called śukla. Brāhmaṇas are fair complexioned. Still it is said if a brāhmaṇa is black, then he is not a real brāhmaṇa born. Kalu-ban means black man. Black brāhmaṇa is to be understood that his father is not real brāhmaṇa. He is born of somebody else, but he is known as brāhmaṇa. Similarly a śūdra, if he is fair-complected, he is also not real. Kalba kata śūdra bete mussulman. Muslim, if he is a dwarf, he is not real Muslim, because Muslims from Afghanistan are very tall. And kaṅki chale, the son of a prostitute, and puṣṭi putra, adopted son, all of them are rascals. Puṣṭi putra, adopted son, he gets money because a rich man, when he hasn't got a son, he takes somebody else, adopted son, and he gets money for nothing and spends like anything. We have seen it in London. One Mr. Sil, he got immense money, and he died a penniless street beggar. And he was an adopted son. I have seen it. His only business was how to spoil his adopted father's money. And we have seen, he was such a rich man, died a street beggar. This I have seen.

Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz says that there are two classes of truth.

Prabhupāda: What are the symptoms of truth? That he has not explained.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He divides it into two classes. One is there are logically necessary principles, the truths of reason as innate knowledge, just like the three sides of a triangle equal 180 degrees. That is innate knowledge, or logically necessary truth. This is also called a priori knowledge, or knowledge that exists independently. Then he says that there is knowledge acquired by experience, or a posteriori, accidental knowledge-just like snow is white, but it could be red; it's possible that it could be red-this type of truth which comes from our experience but it's accidental and it is not necessary.

Prabhupāda: So real truth is that God has got a plan, and one who knows it, that is real truth. One who hasn't got to be taught by another man but by nature, he knows it; that by nature he knows it, that is a symptom of his life, true life. And one who does not know it, that is not. That is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakta. That truth is there already, but he has forgotten it. Therefore by this propaganda of devotional service, chanting and hearing, he simply revives the truth. The truth is there, that I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the conclusion should be anyone who is cognizant of this truth that I am eternal servant, that is symptom of this truth. There is no other symptom. That is the symptom of truth, that is the symptom of goodness, all good qualities, everything good. He is good by nature. The living entity, he is part and parcel of the supreme good. But by his material association he has become bad. So again he has to draw it to goodness by this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our business.

Śyāmasundara: He says there are two types of truth. One is just like the principle of a triangle, there are three angles equal to 180 degrees, and the other type of truth is gathered by experience. For instance, we see that snow is white, but it is also possible that snow may be red.

Prabhupāda: But this is also experienced, that the three angles of a triangle make 180 degrees.

Śyāmasundara: But this truth exists independently, without any…

Prabhupāda: How independently? Not everyone knows what is a triangle, what is an angle, and what is a degree. When one comes to study geometry, then he understands. You cannot ask any child or any man who has no knowledge of geometry that these three angles of a triangle makes 180 degrees…

Śyāmasundara: But this truth exists, whether the man knows it or not. This truth exists, that three sides of a triangle equals 180 degrees.

Prabhupāda: But truth means it exists. Not this truth or that truth. Truth means that. That you may know or not know, but it exists. That is truth. So why is he making this example?

Śyāmasundara: Because there is also a truth that snow is white, they say snow is white, but that truth is not absolute because snow could be red also. But a triangle must always equal 180 degrees. That is an absolute truth, a necessary truth.

Prabhupāda: So any mathematical calculation is like that. Why this example? Mathematical means this: Two plus two equals four. That is always the truth.

Śyāmasundara: He is trying to prove that there are certain truths that we cannot deny they exist independent of our knowledge. Fundamental. And there are other truths that people say, like snow is white, which may not be true because our senses deceive us.

Prabhupāda: That is your defective senses. But snow is white, that's a fact. Why should it be red? At least we have no experience with red snow.

Śyāmasundara: I've seen red snow.

Prabhupāda: How it is?

Śyāmasundara: Particles of lava dust gathered in the snow and in the air…

Prabhupāda: That is not pure snow. That is another thing. Pure snow is white. Just like water. Water, by nature, it is crystal. But when it comes in touch with the earth, it becomes muddy. So that muddiness is due to contact with something external. Snow is white by nature, but in contact with something else it looks red. But the truth that snow is white, that is truth. Not that snow becoming red… You are making, or by some other contact it is looking like that. But snow is white, that's a truth.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that there are two types of truth. There's innate truth…

Prabhupāda: This is innate truth: as three angles of a triangle are equal to 180 degrees, similarly snow is white. Snow is white, water is liquid, stone is hard, chili is hot, sugar is sweet. These are eternal truths, fundamental truths. Similarly, a living entity is eternal servant of God. This is eternal truth. It cannot be changed. Water is liquid. That is the natural position, but when water becomes hard, it is due to temperature, under certain conditions, but as soon as the temperature reduces, the water becomes liquid. So liquidity of water is truth. Similarly, whiteness of snow is truth. Similarly, servitude of the living entity is truth. But he is serving māyā. That is untruth. If we take that there are two types of truth, there cannot be two kinds of truth. Truth is one. What we take as truth, that is māyā.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's only one truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There can't be two truths.

Śyāmasundara: But due to our imperfect senses…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is what is called māyā. Māyā has no existence, but it appears like truth. The same example: the shadow has no existence, but it also looks like my finger, and everything exactly. In the mirror you see your face exactly the same, but it is untruth. The truth is one. Truth cannot be two types of truth. What is taken as truth for the present moment, and by experience he comes to the right truth, that is called māyā.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these two types of truth are governed by two different principles: the truth of reason or the logically necessary proof, like the triangle…

Prabhupāda: This is reason, that truth is one. When we find another competitor truth, that is māyā. Truth cannot be two.

Śyāmasundara: This is what he says, that these innate truths are governed by the principle of contradiction. That is, the opposite of the truth is impossible to conceive. If something is true, the opposite of that truth is impossible to conceive.

Prabhupāda: The opposite is māyā. Opposite to truth is māyā.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the sum of the angles of a triangle must equal 180 degrees. It is impossible to conceive of the opposite.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the other example that snow is white. To think of snow not white, that cannot be conceived.

Śyāmasundara: He says that "snow is white" is not one of these eternal truths; that it is possible to conceive that snow could be red.

Prabhupāda: Why? You say that redness of snow is possible under certain circumstances?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that is possible in every case. Therefore the real feature of snow is not red. It appears to be red under certain conditions, but that is not truth; that is untruth.

Śyāmasundara: What about two plus two equals four?

Prabhupāda: That is true.

Śyāmasundara: It's impossible to conceive of the opposite of that truth. So that is what he would call logically necessary proof, proved by the law of contradiction.

Prabhupāda: My point is that he says that there are two types of truth. No. There cannot be two types of truth. That is my protest. I say there is only one truth. When you think two types of truth, then you are mistaken. Then same thing: when you think that two plus two equals five, then you are mistaken. Two plus two is always four. That is truth. Similarly, snow is white always. That is truth. When you think it is red, it is untruth. But you cannot say it is another type of truth. Mistake cannot be accepted as another type of truth. Mistake is mistake.

Śyāmasundara: I think he says the same things, but the language is different.

Prabhupāda: There are two types of truth-what is that language? One truth is real truth, another truth is shadow truth. It is not truth, it is shadow. That is the exact language. The same example we can give: you see your face in the mirror as exactly the same, but it is shadow; therefore it is untruth. You cannot say that this reflection of your face on the mirror is another type of truth. Can you say like that? You cannot say that.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he would say that if I saw the shadow of myself in the mirror…

Prabhupāda: No. Whatever he may say, we cannot accept that there are two types of truth. That is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He calls this type of truth conditional truth.

Prabhupāda: The conditional truth is the untruth.

Śyāmasundara: Just like if I saw by my senses some snow that was red.

Prabhupāda: That is due to your defect of seeing a condition and not knowing the condition.

Śyāmasundara: But I can explain by sufficient reasons why that snow is red.

Prabhupāda: Just like a living entity is trying to become master-"I am the monarch of all I survey." That is untruth. The truth is that he is eternal servant. You cannot say that because one is trying to be imitation God, that that is another truth. You cannot say that. That is māyā. There cannot be a second God. God is one. That is truth, absolute truth. Our point is that we do not accept this proposition, that there are two types of truth. That is not at all acceptable. Truth is one.

Śyāmasundara: Supposing you saw some ice, and you said, "Due to there being cold, this water has turned hard and become ice."

Prabhupāda: That is another proposition. Water is liquid, but when water becomes hard, that is artificial. But that hardness… Snow is white, that is truth. Otherwise nothing is truth except Kṛṣṇa. Relative truth. Kṛṣṇa is absolute truth. There are relative truths. So this is relative truth. Kṛṣṇa is substance. Now, from Kṛṣṇa everything is emanating by His energy. Water is also one of the energies, but that energy is not absolute truth, that water. But in that relativeness, the water's liquidity is truth. But it is relative truth.

Śyāmasundara: This is what he is saying, that there's absolute truth and relative truth.

Prabhupāda: Absolute truth is one. Then he can say that absolute truth and relative truth, not that two types of truth.

Śyāmasundara: That's what he says: there are relative truths and absolute truths.

Prabhupāda: That we accept. There are truths, relative and absolute.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that the test for both types-of absolute truth and relative truth-is that for absolute truth, it is impossible to conceive of the opposite.

Prabhupāda: Opposite is māyā. Māyā is not truth. Māyā is illusion.

Śyāmasundara: Relative truths are governed by the law of sufficient reason. In other words, they can be most reasonably explained by reference to all of the conditions in which they are found.

Prabhupāda: Just like you can explain how the snow is formed-the molecular structure of the water, and how they become compact by temperature…

Śyāmasundara: He says that everything goes by steps in nature, and not by leaps. In other words, there is a law of continuity, like there are no gaps in nature. Everything is gradual. There is a gradual differentiation.

Prabhupāda: No. There are two ways-gradual and immediate also. Of course, in one sense… [break] …little force, it goes quickly. The ball has no power. So wonderful things are happening in the material nature due to the will of the Supreme. Everything happening is the same process; it is undergoing the process, but the method, pushed by God, it takes automatically. Just like He created this material nature. It is in the beginning nonmanifest, then gradually it grows three qualities, and by the interaction of qualities so many things come out-the sky comes, and as soon as the sky comes out, there is sound; sound comes, as soon as sound has come out, the ear comes; the controller of the ear comes…, so many things-one after another, one after another, one after another. So the pushing is so perfect that all other things come automatically in perfect order. But foolish people, they are thinking that things are coming automatically out of it, without any background. They don't think there is God. They think that nature, there was a chunk, and the creation was there. And wherefrom the chunk came? That is imperfect observation. Perfect knowledge is you take Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ: [Bg. 9.10] "under My superintendence." And that is our practical experience. When I manufacture this table, the raw materials, matter, is there, but it has not automatically become table. I have made it by instrument, by my brain. Similarly, this cosmic manifestation has not come out automatically; it is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is the creator. That is nature. Nature is instrumental. Just like the potter: his wheel is going around and the clay is making a pot, but the original cause is the potter. He has given force to the wheel. After the wheel is running, then so many pots are coming out. So nature… Foolish people are seeing that the wheel is moving. They do not see that behind the movement of the wheel there is a potter who has given force. So there is no question of nature. Everything is God, Kṛṣṇa. This is imperfect vision, that the wheel is moving without any direction. So this kind of knowledge is imperfect. Real knowledge is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you take it from Bhagavad-gītā that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My direction the material energy is working." So the wonderful working of the material nature is not perfect observation. Behind the wonderful work of the material nature there is Kṛṣṇa, God.

Śyāmasundara: He also believes that God is behind it, but he is trying to analyze. He says that there is no gaps or sudden changes, great changes in nature; that everything is gradual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as there is a process, there is a link of everything, one after another, one after another. That is nature's way. Just like in the creation, the first creation is mind. We have got it in the Bhagavad-gītā, first creation is mahat-tattva, the sum total of material energy. Then there is interaction of the three guṇas, qualities, and then mind comes out, ego comes out, intelligence comes out, in this way, one after another. That is explained in the Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, how creation takes place. So the Veda says, sa aikṣata. Sa aikṣata. The Supreme Lord, simply by glancing over… In Bhagavad-gītā also it is said that. But just like we impregnate a woman by sex behavior, but here it is said that He simply glanced over the material nature, total material energy, and the creation begins. Sa aikṣata. So because He is omnipotent, He can impregnate the material nature not by sex behavior but simply by glancing, and the material nature immediately becomes agitated, and things begin to happen. So the original cause is glancing over material nature by God. But we materialists, we cannot think how by simply glancing, the material nature is set into motion. That is material conception.

Śyāmasundara: He says that space and time are mere appearances, but the ultimate or genuine reality is different.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: He calls these ultimate entities monads. Monad means unity, or oneness. He says that the ultimate stuff out of which even the atoms are made are called monads, small particles.

Prabhupāda: And within those small particles there is Kṛṣṇa. That small particle is not final. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu… That is also superficial.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads are individual, conscious, alive and active, and they range in quality from the lowest type, or matter, through the higher of types, such as soul, to the highest, which is God.

Prabhupāda: So whether within the atom there is soul or not?

Śyāmasundara: His theory is that even the atoms are made out of these monads.

Prabhupāda: What is a monad?

Śyāmasundara: It's difficult to understand, but a monad means a tiny particle of force which is…

Prabhupāda: And we say that is Kṛṣṇa

Śyāmasundara: He says that it has activity, consciousness, etc. But each monad is individual, and its inherent qualities are produced from that monad.

Prabhupāda: That monad, as we say, Kṛṣṇa, as we understand from Brahma-saṁhitā, that Kṛṣṇa is within the atom also.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a monad is the force or activity which constitutes the essence of a substance.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is the substance, summum bonum. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. He is within everything. That is His all-pervasive nature.

Śyāmasundara: Then how are the individualities accounted for?

Prabhupāda: Every individual soul is awarded a little portion of independence, because every individual soul is part and parcel of God, so he has got the quality of independence, in minute quantity. That is individuality.

Śyāmasundara: Just like, for instance, say, this particulate substance, he would say that there is a force or activity which constitutes the essence of this substance, and that is the monad of this substance. He is attributing it to everything, matter.

Prabhupāda: So we take the atom. Atom is the smallest. So we say within the atom the force is Kṛṣṇa. He is simply suggesting there is some enforcing power. We are giving directly that that is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that in that enforcing power each atom is individual, separate, different.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, by His omnipotency, can expand Himself in innumerable forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta, unlimited. As it is clearly said, aṇḍāntara-stham. He is within the atom.

Śyāmasundara: Is He between each atom as an individual entity, different from each other entity?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa is individual. And atoms also, there are varieties of atoms. Sometimes they are combined together, six atoms, five atoms, three atoms.

Śyāmasundara: How is Kṛṣṇa different?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is there in every atom.

Śyāmasundara: How is He individual in each one of the atoms?

Prabhupāda: Why not He is individual? Kṛṣṇa is individual. How is He not individual? Kṛṣṇa is always individual.

Śyāmasundara: He is a person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always person, Supreme Person. But He can expand innumerably.

Śyāmasundara: And Paramātmā-is Paramātmā a person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramātmā is a person. Every expansion-just like we are also expansion, atomic expansion of Kṛṣṇa. So we are persons. Every individual soul is a person. But we are expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Paramātmā is another expansion, viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi mūrtiṣu. That is another expansion, different kinds of expansions.

Śyāmasundara: Jīva ātmā is also a person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If not person, then why the difference? You may not agree with my opinion, but if we agree voluntarily, not that exactly what I think you think, but because you have accepted me as your guru, as superior, therefore we agree. You are individual; you may not agree. You are individual and I am individual, Kṛṣṇa is individual. That is stated, nityo nityānām. Plural number. There are many individual souls, but He is the Supreme Individual Person.

Śyāmasundara: This idea of a monad means that…

Prabhupāda: You call it by any name, but within the atom there is the force-that is Kṛṣṇa. You call it monad or something else.

Śyāmasundara: He says the lowest type of monad is in matter, material forms, and then it proceeds up through higher monads, which are souls.

Prabhupāda: So we directly say (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa, that is (indistinct) spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: He says that each monad has an inner or mental activity, a spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in everything, that as soon as we say there is Kṛṣṇa, so there is everything.

Śyāmasundara: So even between the atoms of matter there is a spiritual life, spiritual force?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That force means spiritual force.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, that the essential nature of all bodies is force.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body.

Śyāmasundara: But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out…

Prabhupāda: But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there.

Śyāmasundara: So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That individual soul's force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Kṛṣṇa's force is still there, because it is combination of atoms.

Śyāmasundara: He says that which is manifested to our senses, which occupy space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. The physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature.

Prabhupāda: Physical nature is a by-product. Just like I explained that you create your body. The physical nature is subservient to the soul. Therefore, according to my desire, I get a body. I create a body.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that these monads, they create bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. So yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, as you are thinking, your next body is created. Therefore you create the body.

Śyāmasundara: But does the monad of a, say, a hydrogen molecule, does that also create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule, or does it…

Prabhupāda: Nothing is accidental.

Śyāmasundara: It also desires to become a water molecule? Does the atom of hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become a water molecule?

Prabhupāda: He… The ultimate desire is of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: But does each atom, even of matter…

Prabhupāda: If you take it that way, Kṛṣṇa is within every atom. So Kṛṣṇa wants to be it; therefore He is willing to let these two things become one, and there is some creation, and again another creation, and another creation. The ultimate brain is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?

Prabhupāda: No, but within the hydrogen atom, there is Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is combining. Not this hydrogen atom as matter is combining, but because Kṛṣṇa is within that hydrogen atom existing. He knows that by combination this thing will come about, that will come out, that will come out…

Śyāmasundara: But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Śyāmasundara: Has no independence?

Prabhupāda: No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad-gītā it says that anumantā, individual soul, wants to do something and Kṛṣṇa gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes.

Śyāmasundara: So we have no free will?

Prabhupāda: No. Without sanction of Kṛṣṇa we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause.

Śyāmasundara: But I thought you had been saying that we have a little independence.

Prabhupāda: That independence that Kṛṣṇa wants me to do something but I want to deny it. But unless Kṛṣṇa sanctions, you cannot do that also.

Śyāmasundara: What I'm trying to get at is that if we desire something and we take a body because of that desire, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become part of water and be given that body? Does it have the independence to desire something and take a body accordingly? The hydrogen molecule, does it have a life?

Prabhupāda: So far as we get information, our knowledge is from the Vedic information, aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu: Kṛṣṇa is within, the Paramātmā. It does not say the soul is within, the Paramātmā.

Śyāmasundara: It doesn't say that an individual soul is present within the atom?

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is present.

Śyāmasundara: So then this philosophy of Leibnitz is not correct.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: Because he says in matter there is also this kind of individuality.

Prabhupāda: That individual is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Kṛṣṇa directly.

Śyāmasundara: But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Within the body. Both of them-Kṛṣṇa is also there, and the individual soul is also there.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the definition of substance is a being capable of action. Substance means to be capable of action, and that existence means action.

Prabhupāda: Substance is original. Other things are categories.

Śyāmasundara: So being capable of action, is that a good definition of substance?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Substance means the original cause, so He is completely able to act.

Śyāmasundara: He says to be is to be active.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to be means to be active. Without activity, what does it mean to be?

Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads change in their appearances because the inner desire impels it to pass from one phenomenal representation to another.

Prabhupāda: The monad does not change, but his mind has changed. But I do not know what this means, monads. He is complicating. He cannot express what is this monad.

Śyāmasundara: Monad is very vague. It means a small unit of oneness or unity, which is the substance behind everything else, even the atom.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent.

Śyāmasundara: He says, for instance, that a monad changes its appearance according to its desires.

Prabhupāda: That indication is for the soul. But Kṛṣṇa is not that. Kṛṣṇa is kuta; means he does not change.

Śyāmasundara: He says just like this thing, (holding up an object) it will change to another thing, to another thing, to another thing, depending on its desire, which impels it to change. He says that even behind some object there is some ability to change.

Prabhupāda: That I have already said. Just like Kṛṣṇa, first of all He created the whole total cosmic energy, and then, by His plan, by His devices, He divides into so many things, changes, parts and parts and parts. It can be taken in that way. The material changes are going on according to the will of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Is that clear?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that each monad is like all of the others. They are identical, so that to know one is to know all, to know the whole world.

Prabhupāda: This individual monads can be taken as soul?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And he sees soul even in matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If Kṛṣṇa is there, there is Supersoul.

Śyāmasundara: So he would say that each particle of Supersoul or each monad is self-contained, that there is no loss of gain of force.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal.

Śyāmasundara: He says that even though these monads are always active, they do not contact each other, neither do they affect each other. For example, if a bat hit a ball, in reality the bat did not really affect the ball.

Prabhupāda: But some individual soul has taken the bat, he has hit it, not the bat has hit it.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the bat and the ball are independent.

Prabhupāda: How they are independent? I am holding the bat. I am hitting the ball. So how can the bat is independent?

Śyāmasundara: That this is the function of the bat.

Prabhupāda: No. If I don't hit…, bat in my hand, the bat cannot hit the ball. How is the bat independent?

Śyāmasundara: Let's take another example. Say a rock falls from a cliff into the water and makes the water move. He would say that the rock's falling and the water's moving, that the monad involved in the rock and the monad involved in the water did not really affect each other, that the water parted and the rock went through the water, but that this was the inherent nature of the water and the inherent nature of the rock, so that they did not really affect each other.

Prabhupāda: But one thing is that when rocks were thrown on the sea by Lord Rāmacandra's will, they began to float. Therefore the Supreme Will is the ultimate cause. Supreme Will wants that the rock may go down in the water, then it goes; if He does not wants, then the rock floats. Therefore rock is not independent. The Supreme Will of God is independent. There are so many other examples. The same example as I cited the other day, that the cow eats the dry grass and it gives so nutritious, full of vitamins milk. But the same dry grass, if a woman eats, she will die. Therefore the plan of the Supreme that the cow, by eating dry grass, she can deliver nicely. It is not on the dry grass she is producing milk; it is the will of God that is producing it. Similarly the stone falling. Because the will of God is there, therefore "You stone, go down in the water!" But when God wills that it floats, it will float. So that in that case the monad theory did not act.

Śyāmasundara: He is saying that there is no such thing as cause and effect.

Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. The supreme cause is God. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1].

Śyāmasundara: Another example, he says that the body has no causal influence on the soul, neither does the soul affect or interact with the body.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. The soul desires something, and to fulfill that desire he gets a certain type of body; therefore soul is the cause of manufacturing a type of body.

Śyāmasundara: He likens the soul and the body to two synchronized clocks, both going at the same speed but separate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The soul is separate from the body, but the body is going or the body is being manifested on account of the soul's desire. Just like a young child desires how he will become a youth. He sees the youthful energy, gradually he develops or changes his body to a youthful body.

Śyāmasundara: Then is the body really affecting the soul? Does the body really have a causal influence on the soul?

Prabhupāda: No. The soul is unaffected by the body, but the body is helping the soul to fulfill its desires. Just as I am taking the help of this microphone to serve my purpose, but microphone is not influencing me. It is not that microphone is willing that I shall dictate. It is not like that.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the body has a monad and the soul has a monad. They are two different monads.

Prabhupāda: The body is a combination at atoms. If Kṛṣṇa is within the atoms, the monads of the atoms and the monad in the body are different.

Śyāmasundara: So that although the monad of the body is acting…

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of monad?

Śyāmasundara: The only meaning I know is that it means unity or oneness. A small particle of unity or oneness.

Prabhupāda: That is Supersoul. Supersoul, although it appears many, innumerable, it is one. Ekatvam anupaśyataḥ [Iso 7]. That is Īśopaniṣad. Although we find there are many Supersouls, but there is one. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, in the Bhagavad-gītā, "One who sees in Me everything, and sees everything in Me, he is really seeing." That is oneness. That means they have no clear idea, but trying to theorize something. Clear idea is in the Vedic literature.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God creates the principle of pre-established harmony. Just like He sets two clocks in motion, both synchronized. One is the body and one is the soul. Even though they are going together…

Prabhupāda: The body is separate, body separate from the soul. We say that.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the body is acting, but the soul is independent. It's not really affected by the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. We agree.

Śyāmasundara: So they are like two clocks going at the same synchronization, but not together. They are separate.

Prabhupāda: But why two clocks? What is the relationship between the body and the soul? You cannot analyze separately. The body and the soul, they are practically combined. That example is not complete. They are two individual clocks. They are not combined. So therefore there is fallacy of analogy. If there is no common point, you cannot have analogy.

Śyāmasundara: The common point is that they say the same time. They have the same time.

Prabhupāda: But the same time, gradually one clock goes slow and the other clock goes fast. This analogy is not perfect. Similar point. Analogy means there must be a majority of similar points. Similar point is lacking because the one clock is moving, you'll start the other one moving, and one may go slow or one may go at higher speed.

Śyāmasundara: I think it's like this, that the monad of the body desires a body like this, and the monad of the soul desires to inhabit a body like this. But they are separate entities, body and soul, and they work independently of each other.

Prabhupāda: It is not exactly the way it is. It says in the Vedic śāstras that the soul is the master of the body. Therefore how can you say that the body is working independently? This body, I am now liking to place my hand here, so I am desiring and the hand is there, not that all of a sudden my hand, by not desiring, it is coming…

Śyāmasundara: He would say the act of your desiring and the act of the hand coming are simultaneous but they are separate.

Prabhupāda: Jugglery of words. It has no meaning.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the example of the rock falling in the water. He would say that the water separating and the rock falling are two separate acts. Neither one affects the other.

Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. This argument is called in Sanskrit kaka-tal-nyāya. There was a tal tree, and one crow came, and immediately the fruit fell down. And there were two arguers: one said that the crow sat down on the fruit and it was so light it fell down, and the other said no, the crow was trying to sit down on the fruit but in the meantime the fruit fell and he could not sit. It is like that. It may be coincidence, the crow was just trying to sit on the fruit and the fruit fell. But these people's answer is no, the crow first sat down, then is was fallen. Another says no, the fruit has fallen down; therefore the crow could not sit. So this kind of argument has no value. According (indistinct), the water separated and the stone fell-they are nonsensical. Our argument is strong: that if Kṛṣṇa desires, the stone can float on the water, despite the law of gravitation. The law of gravitation is not working. So many huge planets are floating. How they are floating? The law of gravitation is working here. The stone falls down and (indistinct) goes down in the water. But that is one of the ingredients of the planet. But the planet itself is floating in the air. Where is the law of gravitation? Therefore Kṛṣṇa's desire. The cause is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Let it be floating." Or He has made some arrangement. By law of gravitation every planet should have gone down, and there is Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and broke His head, because he is lying down in the Garbhodakaśāyī… So all the planets fall on Him and He is dead. But no. By His order they are all floated. That is Kṛṣṇa. Is that all right? Or still more?

Śyāmasundara: There's another page. This whole idea is so vague, that the water parting and the rock falling are individual.

Prabhupāda: It is childish.

Śyāmasundara: He says that each monad is given a characteristic nature by the central monad, who is God.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then why don't you take to the central monad?

Śyāmasundara: He says that God is the supreme monad, or pure activity.

Prabhupāda: I was speaking like that. If God desires, then the other monads have no independence. The same example as I told you: the stone is falling down in the water, and the monads of the water giving way. It is falling down, but if God desires, the water will not give way, it will float. If God is the ultimate monad, that is possible. Therefore there is no reason for disbelieving that when Rāmacandra threw so many stones on the water of the sea, it began to float. You cannot disbelieve. If Rāmacandra is God and He is the ultimate cause, He can check. Whatever He wills will come into effect.

Śyāmasundara: But the point of whether the monad of the rock causes the monads of the water to part.

Prabhupāda: These causes can be changed-by God's will.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, I understand that, but if the monad of the rock causes the monads of the water to part, or whether the monads of the water part independently…?

Prabhupāda: That is all dependent on God's will.

Śyāmasundara: That's a moot question.

Prabhupāda: Therefore ultimate desire is God's.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the bird-whether the bird caused the fruit to fall, or whether the fruit happened to fall coincidentally. It doesn't matter. Is that the point?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is simply useless talk. Because it is a fact that the fruit has fallen, and the crow has flown away. Now why should we bother? A waste of time. But both can be possible. These argument-one is saying that the bird sat down, which is the cause of falling of the fruit, and the other says the falling down is the cause of the bird's not being able to sit on it-both can be possible. But we say therefore the ultimate desire is of God. If God desired that the fruit would not fall, it would not have fallen. That is our proposition.

Śyāmasundara: I think you said once that the devotee picks up the fruit and offers it to Kṛṣṇa and eats it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't see the cause and effect; we see that ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. "By Kṛṣṇa's desire we have got this nice thing. Offer it to Kṛṣṇa and eat it," that's all.

Śyāmasundara: So whether the water's parting allowed the rock to fall in, or whether the rock caused the water to part, it doesn't really matter.

Prabhupāda: It is ultimately depending on God's will. That is the explanation.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these monads are spiritual in nature; therefore they are immortal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit, because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's will, both of them are spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: So even the particle of matter is eternal?

Prabhupāda: Ultimately everything is spiritual, because the matter is Kṛṣṇa's energy and spirit is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. If Kṛṣṇa is the original cause, therefore the matter can be changed into spirit, spirit can be changed into matter. Just as it is the same electric energy acting as heater and as cooler, but the electrician, he can change the cooler to heater and the heater to cooler, because the original cause is electricity. Similarly, the original cause is Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa can change matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That is in His power. The rascals and fools, when Kṛṣṇa appears in His own body, ātmamāyā, they think it is just like material body, but they do not know that to Kṛṣṇa there is no such distinction of material and spiritual. Even accepting that He had got a material body, there is no hampering-He has changed into spiritual body. Otherwise how is it possible, Kṛṣṇa, He has got material body, now He was seven-years' boy, Kṛṣṇa is lifting the whole Govardhana Hill? And as much as Kṛṣṇa desires, "Let this big planet sun float in the air," so is it difficult for Him to lift the whole hill? There is no difficulty at all. That is omnipotency. And those who cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11], deride Him, "He is a man, therefore these are all stories," they have no idea of Kṛṣṇa. But we don't take Him as ordinary human being. Therefore He can change anything into anything, matter into spirit, spirit into matter, as He likes. That is His omnipotency. Otherwise what is the meaning of omnipotency?

Śyāmasundara: Because He is the central monad which controls all monads…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. So taking the theory, the central monad and the other monad, the central monad is the cause of it. But he does not believe in the cause.

Śyāmasundara: No. He believes that God is the cause, the designer of everything.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he say there is no cause?

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no cause and effect relationship between monads.

Prabhupāda: That is not clear. Once he says there is no cause. There is cause. There is no other cause than God. That is definite. The real cause is God.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that when the bird landed, the fruit coincidentally fell. There is no cause between the bird and the fruit falling.

Prabhupāda: No. We say if Kṛṣṇa desired, it would not have fallen. Kṛṣṇa desired it. Kṛṣṇa desires "Let it fall down"; therefore it falls. That is the cause. Kṛṣṇa desires that "Let the fruit fall down and the crow fly away."

Śyāmasundara: He says that God is absolute necessity because He is governed by the law of contradiction, and it is impossible to conceive of not God.

Prabhupāda: To God there is no contradiction. That is absolute. Whatever He does, whatever He says, that is absolute. There is no contradiction.

Śyāmasundara: Because it is impossible to conceive of not God. In other words, God is absolutely necessary because to conceive not-God is impossible.

Prabhupāda: That is artificial. The atheists say there is no God, so God is there, but he refuses to accept. Otherwise why does he say there is no God? The idea of God is there, but he refuses to accept. And unless God is there, wherefrom the idea is coming? The atheist… God is there, but he is refusing to accept. Just like the impersonalist: unless you have got personal understanding, how will you try to make it impersonal? The first is personal. You try to make it impersonal.

Śyāmasundara: Otherwise where does the impersonal idea come from?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is out of frustration. We see so many things, personal, varieties, but they are not giving us satisfaction; therefore we are thinking in a negative way, impersonal. But the person is first.

Śyāmasundara: He says that men, because they are…

Prabhupāda: The atheist demons are like that. If he exists to accept God, then he cannot work irresponsibly. To facilitate his sinful activities he is denying that there is a God.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God is an absolute necessity because we cannot conceive not-God. But man, individual men, are relative truths because they are not absolutely necessary. Because I can conceive that I am not here, that I may die. So he says that we are conditioned, that men are conditioned. They are governed by the principle of sufficient (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: That we can see. There are so many politicians, they are very busy. They think that "If I do not remain in the state, everything will collapse." But when he dies, everything goes on nicely without him. That is māyā. So many politicians work so hard, up to the last point of his death he is thinking that "Without me, everything will be topsy turvy." But he dies in spite of his not willing to die. He dies, but things go on without depending on him. Therefore God's will is working, the Supreme Will. You may think so many ways-that is a different thing. Actually God's will is working.

Śyāmasundara: He says that men are all dependent upon another being for their existence. They are contingent.

Prabhupāda: They are dependent… (break-continues next day)

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world could have been otherwise if God desired, but that He chose this particular arrangement, and from the standpoint of its ingredients, this is the best possible world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God can do anything He likes, but this world is planned not by God; it is given to the living entities who wanted to imitate God. So actually, the plan is according to the desire of the living entities who wanted to lord it over the material nature. God's plan is not this. It is exactly like the prison house is planned by the government because there are criminals. God's plan is "Come back home, giving everything up." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar iti mām eti. His plan is to invite all the conditioned souls back to home, back to Godhead. He doesn't like the living entities to live here. But because they wanted to lord it over the material nature, they have been given that facility.

Śyāmasundara: So from the standpoint of the ingredients of this world, material ingredients, is this the best possible world with those ingredients?

Prabhupāda: No. The spiritual world. There are spiritual ingredients.

Śyāmasundara: I mean this world, just this earth planet. Given the ingredients of the earth planet…

Prabhupāda: This planet is not a very good planet. There are many other planets thousands of times better. The more you go higher planetary systems, the comforts and amenities are a thousand times better, one after another. The next planetary system is a thousand times better than this planetary system, and the next planetary system a thousand times better than that. Similarly, the standard of life, duration of life, they are bigger. Therefore at the end, Brahmaloka, it is stated that twelve hours of the day of Brahmā is incalculable by us. Immediately in the higher planets, suppose if one goes to the moon planet, he gets immediately ten thousand years duration of life, and their year, our six months is equal to their one day. Such years. So there are better, more comfortable situations than here in the higher planetary systems.

Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz, his point of view is that he accepts the conditions of this material world as being all right. They are the best we can hope for, the best of a bad bargain.

Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad-gītā says that it is the place for miseries only. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place simply for suffering, and that also we cannot stay for a long time. Even if you agree to stay in this uncomfortable situation of life, still you will not be allowed; you have to change this place, change this body, that may go higher or lower. Therefore this life, the material life, is on the whole miserable. There is no question of any happiness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because God has freedom of will, God decided it would be best to give man such freedom of will.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, although very minute portion, similarly proportionately, he has minute proportion of freedom of will. Not absolute. That is natural. Every man has got a little freedom of will, but it is not absolute. A man cannot will as he likes. That is not possible. Therefore it is said, "Man proposes; God disposes." Although the freedom of will is there, it is subordinate to the freedom of will of God. You cannot fulfill your desire unless it is sanctioned and approved by God.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the fact that there is more good than evil in this world justifies its creation.

Prabhupāda: Well, good and evil is according to his angle of vision. A devotee sees in this material world everything is good. Viśva pūrṇaṁ sukhaya. People are complaining they are in distressed condition, but a devotee sees that there is no distressed condition, that it is all happy condition, because he lives with Kṛṣṇa, he dovetails everything with Kṛṣṇa, he dovetails himself also with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore for him there is no misery.

Śyāmasundara: He says that if it would not have been worth creating, that God would not have created the world. The fact that He created it makes it worth creating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Vedas: pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. The creator is complete, and the creation is also complete. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. Nothing can come out incomplete which is created by the complete. So in that sense, everything wanted in this world, the arrangement is there, complete.

Śyāmasundara: He says that although some schools of philosophy, especially in Britain, said that the mind is a blank slate at the time of birth, Leibnitz defended the fact that there are necessary truths which are implanted in the mind before birth. These are innate truths, like mathematical truths. There are certain necessary truths that a person is born with, that he can understand, being implanted in his mind, just like mathematical proofs, "Two plus two is equal to four"-that is a necessary truth with which a person is born.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That truth is devotion. Everyone wants to be devoted to somebody else. And because such devotion is misplaced, he becomes unhappy. When that devotional spirit will be rendered to the Supreme Person, then he will be happy. But the devotional spirit is there.

Śyāmasundara: Everyone is born with this?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this child, he was asked to obey, immediately he offered obeisances. So this is devotion. Every politician, everyone has got some followers. That means the devotional spirit is there. Even a rogue, dacoit, plunderer, he has got also some follower, and one could not follow others without devotional spirit. Is it not? Therefore this devotional spirit is innate in everything. That is truth.

Śyāmasundara: Is this the only necessary truth that one is born with, or are there others?

Prabhupāda: This is the prime truth. The method of devotional service and other ideas, they are included, but the basic principle is devotional service.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, Leibnitz says that concepts of mathematics are necessary truths, like "Two plus two is equal to four." Someone is born with that knowledge.

Prabhupāda: So this is also mathematical truth. Because even the aborigines, they also offer obeisances to thunderbolt. As soon as there is some sound of thunderbolt, or as soon as there is earthquake, they offer obeisances-any big natural phenomena. That means the devotion is there, but that devotional service is misplaces so long as one does not reach God.

Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz states that there is nothing in the intellect which was not previously in the senses except the intellect itself. In other words, all of our knowledge comes through our senses except the fact…

Prabhupāda: And it is banked in the intellect. That is a fact. That is permanent. Therefore even if we change our body, still we can find out our means of living by that inherent intellect. That is advertised as intuition. But this intuition is previous experience only. (end)

HUME.SYA

David Hume

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing philosopher David Hume. He is probably the most famous of the British philosophers. He was very skeptical about achieving certain knowledge, so he came to the conclusion that the only knowledge we can possess is a mere sequence of ideas, none of which can be proved to be true. In other words, we can only derive any knowledge from our senses, but even that knowledge is mere assumption.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say also, because our senses are imperfect, so there is no possibility of achieving perfect knowledge by sense exercise. It is not possible. That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says there is no other source of knowledge except the senses.

Prabhupāda: No. We don't agree. Therefore it is called avāṅ-manasā gocaraḥ, adhokṣaja-there are so many names. The senses are imperfect. They cannot reach. Just like we cannot know what is there in the sun, but a geologist or astronomer, he can say, one who has studied. Therefore our process of knowledge is to take from the authorities. That is perfect. Our senses cannot read, that is a fact. But it is not that without senses, no knowledge can be… No. We receive by senses, but from superior authority, one who knows. That is perfect knowledge. According to him, there is no possibility of having perfect knowledge?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is a skeptic.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that all that we are, all that we know, is merely ideas, a sequence of ideas.

Prabhupāda: But behind the ideas there must be some fact; otherwise how we get the ideas?

Śyāmasundara: He separates fact from idea. For instance, I may think this table is red, but it is actually brown. So my idea is incorrect.

Prabhupāda: Your idea may be, but actually it has got a color, either red or yellow. So if you have eye disease, you cannot see actually, but one whose eyes are not diseased, he can see whether it is yellow or red. Just like sometimes glaucoma-you see the moon as two moons, but actually there is one moon. But due to your eye disease you see two moons. But one who is not diseased, he sees one moon. Therefore we have to take knowledge from a person who is not diseased. Not that because my eyes are diseased, I cannot see things right way, I shall say, "Oh, there is no possibility of having right knowledge." That is not correct.

Śyāmasundara: In fact, he calls the soul a bundle of perceptions, that it is nothing but a set or sequence of ideas.

Prabhupāda: But as soon as he says "ideas," there must be some concrete things.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He admits that the external world is full of concrete things, but he thinks that we are also one of those things because we are only a bundle of perceptions. Our consciousness is only made up of our observations of material nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So far direct perception is concerned, it is like that. But indirect perception, taken from authorities, that is different.

Śyāmasundara: He distrusts any kind of authority and says that the only kind of things that we can know for sure are mathematical proofs and immediate sense perceptions. Like we can perceive that there is time and there is space, like that. That is the only knowledge he will admit.

Prabhupāda: And beyond the time and space?

Śyāmasundara: We can't know anything.

Prabhupāda: You cannot, but there is a process. You cannot know; that does not mean beyond the mind is relative time and perception. Just like a small insect, he takes birth in the evening, and from evening to morning, his birth, his marriage, his begetting children, everything is done, and in the morning he dies. There are many insects. They are called diwali pokali. At night they will throng together, in India. So for this insect, it is very difficult to understand that there is another animal which is called man, who has got this duration of his lifetime period in only twelve hours of his life. But the insect cannot go beyond that. Just like when we hear from Bhagavad-gītā that Brahmā lives such-and-such, we disbelieve sometimes. But everything is relative. With your relative body, your duration of life, your knowledge, your perception, everything is relative. So you are teeny human being. What is impossible for you is not impossible for others. He is talking from the relative platform.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He believes there is only relativity. He doesn't think there's anything absolute.

Prabhupāda: Relativity… He does not believe that there are other things. But as soon as one says relative, the opposite word is absolute; otherwise wherefrom we take this word relative?

Śyāmasundara: Well, his idea is that things only exist in relation with each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the supreme relative?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't admit any supreme.

Prabhupāda: His knowledge is imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says just like a cherry, say a fruit…

Prabhupāda: In logic there is relative study, and at the end of all relative truth there is absolute truth, the summum bonum. So he has no idea of the summum bonum, or the substance.

Śyāmasundara: No. He denies any substance. He says just like a cherry or a fruit, it has certain sensory qualities such as sweetness, color, like that. He says that we are just like that, humans. We have certain "sensory qualities." We are made up of a series of mental activities or a complex of ideas, but this is all we are.

Prabhupāda: No. We have got senses also. The color is only, what is called, sensory qualities. It is a quality, but to appreciate that quality, we have the senses. An inert object, it has got the quality, but living entity, it has the senses to appreciate the quality.

Śyāmasundara: But he says these senses are only a bundle of perceptions, of ideas.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the living entity is superior to the inert matter. In Sanskrit language they are called tan mātrā. They are created for the sense; they are sense objects. I have got senses, I must appreciate something. That something is that quality or sensory quality. I have eyes, I must see something. So therefore there is color, there is beauty…

Śyāmasundara: He postulates three laws whereby perceptions are associated or connected with one another. He says first of all, there is the principle of resemblance. For example, I see a picture and it impels me to think of the original of that picture. The second principle is the principle of contiguity. If I mention a room in a building, this impels me to think of other rooms in other buildings. And the third principle is the principle of cause and effect, just like if I think about a wound I automatically think of pain. So in these three ways he thinks that our whole being is made up of this stream of ideas, association of ideas, one idea follows another, perpetually.

Prabhupāda: That is called relative world. That is the meaning of relative world. You cannot understand what is father without a son; you cannot understand son without a father. You cannot understand husband without a wife. This world is like that. It is called relative world.

Śyāmasundara: He thinks that is what our being is-it is simply ideas. From our birth to our death we simply are made up of a bundle of perceptions and ideas. Simply that, nothing more.

Prabhupāda: Beyond this idea?

Śyāmasundara: He denies the existence of any ultimate reality. Only the phenomena of senses.

Prabhupāda: So wherefrom do these phenomena come, unless there is noumena?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that it is possible that all this existed since eternity and there was no cause. It's possible that there is no cause, that it's just existing.

Prabhupāda: What about the manifestation-past, present and future?

Śyāmasundara: He says that this may be an eternal existence of things, but there may not be any cause.

Prabhupāda: Then why death takes place, if there is no cause?

Śyāmasundara: It's just like any machine which is born and dies.

Prabhupāda: When you say machine, machine is made by somebody. You cannot compare it to a machine. A machine is created by somebody. There is beginning of the machine.

Śyāmasundara: Or just like the seasons, they come and go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They again come. So what is this?

Śyāmasundara: This may be an eternally existing fact which has no cause or no creator. This is his idea.

Prabhupāda: There is no creator?

Śyāmasundara: No creator. He says, however, that if we prefer, we can say that there is a creator, if we like to. In other words, he bases everything on this idea that you can do what you like to do.

Prabhupāda: So that he can go on talking whatever he likes. (laughter) All nonsense. All he wants that license: you can go on talking all nonsense, I can go on talking all nonsense. You are right, I am right, everything is all right. Yata mata tata patha. Yata mata-as many opinions there are, so many (indistinct) are there also. So it does not apply in legal sense. Just like the same example that I give always, "Keep to the right." Then if somebody says, "My opinion is, 'Keep to the left,' " but as soon as he does it, he is arrested.

Śyāmasundara: We'll discuss that in a minute or two. But he divided human understanding into two classes. The first class is the relationship among ideas, just as mathematical compositions, they are true and certain, whether or not the things they refer to exist in nature. Just like two plus two equals four. This is a relationship among ideas. And the second-relationship among facts. He says that these cannot be proved by reasoning. They are merely assumed on the basis of sense experience. For example, that sun will rise tomorrow. This is a relationship among facts. But it is merely an assumption based upon our sense experience, but it's possible to imagine that the world will end or the sun may not rise. So it's only an assumption that the sun will rise. So this world of facts that we see, we can only assume that they will act in certain ways. There is probability, but there is no certainty.

Prabhupāda: That is already discussed: why it is so, probability, who takes it, who makes it not possible, how it happens. Sun is rising, and sun may not rise, stop. How it is? Accidentally or by somebody's will?

Śyāmasundara: He would say that it's accidental.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Nothing is accidental. Everything is symmetrical. Therefore, we have to admit that supreme direction, and that is Kṛṣṇa, as stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: "Under My direction everything is going on." The sun is rising on His direction, and when He orders, the sun will not rise. But it is not accidental.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no such thing as a cause-and-effect relationship. Just like, for example, we associate friction with heat, but he says that it's a mistake to assume that friction causes heat or possesses any power which must inevitably produce heat. He says that it is a mere repetition of two incidents, so that the effect habitually attends the cause, but it is not necessarily a consequence of it. So the fact that I rub my hands together and there is heat produced, I am used to assuming that the friction causes heat, but he says that it is not necessarily so. Whenever there is friction, there is heat, but that is only because they are associated with each other, not that one causes the other.

Prabhupāda: Then how are they associated?

Śyāmasundara: That one habitually attends the other, but not necessarily as a consequence of it.

Prabhupāda: But who made this law? As soon as they associate, immediately after friction there is heat. So there is a systematic law. The association may be accidental, but as soon as there is friction between the two associates, the law is there must be heat. So there is systematic law. Either you rub the hands, or I rub the hands, the law is that heat must be there, either in your hands or in my hands. That is law.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that this law is not ultimate reality, that it is a mere probability.

Prabhupāda: But it is a physical law. And he says that the sequence of the law may be different. So that is possible also, because law means made by some person, somebody. So if he likes, he can change the law, just like if the legislature assembles and some law is passed today, next day or next month or next year this law is nullified. So that supreme legislative council is responsible for this law-making. Similarly, there is a supreme will who makes this law and who can nullify this law. So we have to come to the supreme will. You cannot change or you cannot make any new law. If you think that by friction of hands there may not be any heat-producing effect, that you cannot do. Therefore you are also under the supreme will. He has given you a chance to talk all nonsense, but he can stop immediately. Your tongue and you will be a dead body, is it not? He is talking all nonsense, but if the supreme will desires, he'll stop immediately his tongue moving, and he'll be considered a dead body, all philosophy finished. But he cannot stop it. Therefore the supreme will is the ultimate cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that morality consists of values which the individual formulates for himself, as a matter of personal opinion. In other words, I can do whatever my conscience dictates.

Prabhupāda: So another man can also say "what my conscience dictates." So there is a difference.

Śyāmasundara: But in society, moral values are based upon the opinion of the whole society. In other words, my moral values are relative to public opinion.

Prabhupāda: When the majority opinion is something, you have to accept it. That is democracy.

Śyāmasundara: But still he says it's up to the individual whether to accept or reject it. This is where you were talking about the left side of the road and the right side of the road, that even though the law is there as agreed upon by society, still it's up to me whether I want to follow it or not. It's matter of my personal opinion.

Prabhupāda: If you don't follow, then you'll be punished. That will be the effect. You'll be punished. Therefore, the conclusion is that your independent thinking is not absolute; it is also relative.

Śyāmasundara: He says that logic or reason don't determine morality, but sentiment determines morality-how I feel, that's how I should act.

Prabhupāda: Or in other words, what is accepted by the supreme will, that is morality. You cannot decide what is morality. The supreme will decides whether it is morality or immorality.

Śyāmasundara: According to Hume, it's my sentiment that decides. How I feel at the moment, that's how I should act. It's my personal opinion.

Prabhupāda: But your personal opinion sometimes does not meet with approval. So if you are satisfied with your personal opinion, but if it is not approved by others, then you are in the fool's paradise. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the remedy for this is social, that we should try to change the laws of the state or change the opinion of the state to accept a certain type of morality. If I think something is right and the state says it is wrong, then I should act through politics to change it.

Prabhupāda: He agrees to surrender to the supreme-state-so if the supreme state sanctions, it is morality. Is it not that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Public opinion.

Prabhupāda: But anyway, it goes to somebody, public opinion, but this public opinion is not final. Therefore above the public opinion there is the supreme will of Kṛṣṇa. That should be the final, to sanction morality or immorality.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the moral sentiments which are approved by society enhance the social good, whereas immoral attitudes are egoistic and antisocial. So that a society will always approve of a certain set of moral values, and then the individual living in the society must either accept or reject them. And if he rejects them, then he must act through politics, through the social body, to try to change their attitude, their opinion.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it depends on that social body, which is authority. So ultimately we have to depend on the authority for all sanctions. So our proposition is that the supreme authority is Kṛṣṇa. So whatever He sanctions, that is morality; whatever He does not sanction, that is immorality. Just like Arjuna was thinking to become nonviolent, not to fight, is good. But Kṛṣṇa said, "Now you fight." So fight became good. So ultimately it depends on Kṛṣṇa's will, what is morality, what is immorality, what is good, what is bad. Therefore our duty is, instead of depending on social body or political… [break] …are so many, one is different from the other-we depend on the supreme will of the supreme authority.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no absolute morality, that everything is relative.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say also. If it is sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa, then it is morality; otherwise the same morality may be immorality. Just like Yudhiṣṭhira was asked by Kṛṣṇa to speak lie-"Go to Droṇācārya and inform him that 'Your son is dead,' " because Droṇācārya had a benediction that unless he was shocked by the dead limbs of his son, he would not die. So he had to be shocked. But he would not believe anybody except King Yudhiṣṭhira because he was known as very honest and truthful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa employed this service that "You go." Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, he said, "Oh, how can I tell a lie?" So this is immorality. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, and he is saying that "How can I say lie?" This is immorality; he is disobeying the order of Kṛṣṇa. But Arjuna, he rejected all morality and immorality. He accepted Kṛṣṇa's order. That is morality. He was personally thinking that "If I kill my brothers, cousins, this, that," so many things, but because he was a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, when he understood "Kṛṣṇa wants it," he said, "Yes." This is morality. That is the fact. When your actions are approved by the supreme authority, that is morality. If it is not approved by the supreme authority, that is immorality. Therefore so-called morality-immorality has no fixed position. When it is approved by Kṛṣṇa, it is morality. Even so-called immorality will be morality, and so-called morality will be immorality. That we practically see, the same example as I gave you, that a soldier killing so many human beings, he is awarded, and it is… [break] …he does what he likes, then it becomes chaos.

Śyāmasundara: That's what has happened.

Prabhupāda: There must be some authority.

Śyāmasundara: He says the only authority is public opinion, and it changes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still it is authority. Public opinion, he says, or without public opinion, the king or royalty. There must be some authority to guide them. Otherwise there will be chaos.

Śyāmasundara: As far as his philosophy of religion, he rejected the idea of absolute matter and the concept of a soul as substance. He rejected the utility of scientific laws, and he rejected moral principles as objective realities. He says all religious ideas are relative. There is no certainty and anything religious may be merely probable but never certain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That also he says. Therefore religion means love of God. The means may be different in different processes of religion, but ultimately if one develops love of Godhead, that is the prima facie factor, love of God. So if any religious principle love of God is absent, that is simply show, it is not factual religion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that even the idea of God is merely probable but not certain.

Prabhupāda: That he cannot say. As soon as he speaks of authority, there must be a supreme authority. That is God.

Śyāmasundara: For him, the authority is the senses. His authority is the senses.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he say public opinion? Your senses may not be approved by the public opinion. Then where do your senses stand?

Śyāmasundara: That's as far as morality goes, public opinion. But for my understanding of God, I can only rely upon my own senses.

Prabhupāda: Morality, morality means what is sanctioned by… [break]

Śyāmasundara: …imperfection or finiteness.

Prabhupāda: God is absolute. For Him there is no evil. Absolute good. Otherwise He cannot be absolute. So what you think evil, to God it is good. Just like a father slaps a child and he cries. For the child it is evil, but for the father it is good. Father thinks, "I have done right. He is crying. He will not commit the mistake again." So this chastisement is just like sometimes Aravinda complains he thinks "I was unnecessarily chastised," but I say it is good. (laughter) The same thing. So whose opinion is to be taken?

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that God is limited.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. If God is limited, then He cannot be God.

Śyāmasundara: He says either God is limited in His goodness, in order to allow evil to exist…

Prabhupāda: No. He is unlimitedly good.

Śyāmasundara: Then He must be limited in His power, because He cannot stop evil from existing.

Prabhupāda: No. Evil works under His guidance. Good and evil, both are control] by Him. Therefore He is called supreme controller. He is not limited. The exact word used in Sanskrit is called ananta, unlimited. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta. Advaita, non-dual; acyuta, infallible; and ananta, unlimited. (end)

KANT.SYA

Immanuel Kant

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing Immanuel Kant. Basically, his philosophy seeks to trace the relationship between a priori ideas, or those ideas of the mind which are independent of sense experience, and the a posteriori ideas, or sense impressions. He wants to unify these two positions. So he wrote The Critique of Pure Reason, in which he asks the fundamental question, "How are a priori synthetic judgments possible?" In other words, how can we decide anything, judge anything? Where does this facility come from? What is the source of knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Intelligence. The source of knowledge is intelligence. Intelligence acts through mind, and then some conclusion comes. Man is mortal, so here is a man, intelligence; he must be mortal. This a priori idea means "I know man is mortal; therefore here is a man, he must be mortal." A priori means before. And what is the other?

Śyāmasundara: A posteriori means after; sense impressions. So he developed this process for attaining knowledge in three steps. The first step he calls he transcendental aesthetic, and this is the basic stage which synthesizes sense experience through concepts of time and space. In other words, the mind acts upon sensory perceptions and applies time and space relations to them. So he says that this knowing of time and space is a priori; it's an internal creation of the mind. Before we sense anything, we have an idea of time and space. So as soon as we sense something, we can apply time and space ideas.

Prabhupāda: He said something transcendental?

Śyāmasundara: He calls it the transcendental aesthetic.

Prabhupāda: Transcendental means it is not in my experience, but I get the experience from higher authority, paramparā.

Śyāmasundara: I think his definition of transcendental is slightly different.

Prabhupāda: Transcendental means beyond your sense experience. That is the real meaning. You can see the dictionary. Transcendental is that which transcends.

Śyāmasundara: "Transcendental: of an a priori character, not based on experience; intuitively accepted; innate in the mind; superrational; supernatural; consisting of or dealing in or inspired by abstractions.' The way he is using "transcendental" is simply he is trying to understand knowledge through abstraction, by abstracting.

Prabhupāda: Transcendental knowledge means knowledge received from a source which is beyond the reach of my material senses. That is transcendental. Just like we are reading Bhagavad-gītā. So we have no knowledge that there is a spiritual world, but Kṛṣṇa says that there is another nature, a spiritual nature, beyond this material nature. So we understand through the source of transcendental knowledge. We cannot experience. That is explained, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi. God, His name, His qualities, His pastimes-nothing can be understood by these material senses. But if you engage yourself in service, they become revealed. That will become confirmed: "Yes, there is Vaikuṇṭha, there is Vṛndāvana, where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on, and I am perceiving myself." These things become revealed gradually, not abruptly you can understand. Therefore common men cannot understand that they say " 'Going back to home, back to Godhead?' What nonsense they are saying?" They cannot understand, because it is transcendental, beyond the reach of these gross senses. But it is revealed: sevonmukhe. If you become submissive, if you engage yourself in the service of the Lord, guru-Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, then these things become revealed. Now one who has got the knowledge by revelation, nobody can mislead him. Just like we believe in the transcendental abode, cintāmaṇi, Goloka Vṛndāvana. If somebody pays out millions of dollars and asks you to forget all these things, we cannot do that. If you give him hundreds and thousands of dollars, that "You believe in this," no, he will not believe. That is transcendental knowledge. So transcendental knowledge is not speculation. It is receiving from higher authority and gradually, by your service attitude, things become clear to you. That is transcendental.

Śyāmasundara: Before, we were discussing Descartes and Hume. Descartes expressed that all knowledge comes through innate ideas, and Hume said just the opposite: "No. All knowledge comes from sense experience." So Kant is trying to unify the two ideas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense experience. Sense experience means purified sense experience. That is seva. Just like I am seeing here Kṛṣṇa, but others will see a stone. So he is also seeing with his eyes; I am also seeing with the eyes, but my eyes are different from his eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. When the eyes are anointed with love of God, ointment of love of God, then he can see. Just like if one's eyes are diseased, if he applies some eye ointment, or lotion, then he sees. So the same senses, the same eyes, unless they are treated and purified, he cannot understand or he cannot see or he cannot know.

Śyāmasundara: He says that thoughts without content are empty, meaning that the mind must have senses in order to fill its thoughts with content; and perceptions without exceptions are blind. In other words, sense impressions without thought are blind.

Prabhupāda: That thought comes from transcendental knowledge. Thought comes from higher authorities. That is called parokṣa. Then with your senses, when you try to understand, that is called aparokṣa. Then adhokṣaja. As I told you, there are five stages of acquiring knowledge: direct perception, pratyakṣa; parokṣa, receiving knowledge from higher authorities; then apply your senses, come to some conclusion, that is aparokṣa; then transcendental knowledge, adhokṣaja; then aprakṛta, spiritual knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, the thought content comes from higher authorities, then you apply your senses and the two combine.

Prabhupāda: To come to some conclusion. That is the source of knowledge which is beyond my senses.

Śyāmasundara: But I use my senses to come to some conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Just like a higher authority says that there is a spiritual world. Now, how do you come to this conclusion, "Yes, there is a spiritual world"? How, unless you apply your senses? Sense application is like this, that "I am combination of spirit and matter, that is a fact. So I cannot see the spirit at the present moment, but there is spirit. So I am a combination of spirit and matter. So if there is material world, why is there no spiritual world?" This is conclusion: by applying your senses and reason that there are two things, material and spiritual, so if there is possibility of material world, why is there not possibility of spiritual world?

Śyāmasundara: And if I see a dead body, I can understand that there is no life in that body, so there must be some source of life.

Prabhupāda: That is preliminary knowledge, that something is missing. Something is missing. Now there are arguments, so many things, but something, that we understand from higher authority, that this something is eternal. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, that consciousness is spread all over my body, and He says that is avināśi, eternal. Consciousness is spiritual. So then you can judge how it is eternal. Now eternal, the same way that I am existing, I exist, I existed in a childhood body, boyhood body, so my consciousness is continuing. Consciousness is going on with my existence. I am existing. Despite different changes of body, I am existing. Therefore consciousness exists. This kind of, you have to apply your senses. But the basic principle of the knowledge is received from higher authorities. Just like in mathematics, teacher says two plus two is equal to four. So you take four things, make two and two, and you find four. Similarly, by applying your senses, reason-God has given you reason, consciousness-you can come to the conclusion. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Is there any such thing as innate knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Innate knowledge means that knowledge which you are cultivating, that is already there.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, if you are unable to receive knowledge from a higher authority, could you still somehow have this knowledge inside?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Inside, there is. We say caitya-guru; Kṛṣṇa is within.

Śyāmasundara: So one could understand about Kṛṣṇa perhaps if he was unable to receive from outside?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything, outside and inside. Inside He is Paramātmā, outside He is spiritual master. So Kṛṣṇa is trying to help the conditioned soul both ways-outside and inside. Therefore spiritual master is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa comes outside as spiritual master, and inside He is personally there.

Śyāmasundara: So according to Kant, the first or basic stage is that one perceives objects and gives them concepts of time and space. Then the second step is called transcendental analytic. In other words, human understanding changes these perceptions into conceptions or ideas, which possess analytical unity. In other words, the mind applies categories to whatever it perceives. And there are four categories that he describes: quantity, quality, relationship and modality.

Prabhupāda: What is modality?

Śyāmasundara: Modality means whether it is possible or impossible; whether it is existent or nonexistent; whether it is necessary or dependent. Like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: So this is the process of material reasoning, that when we see something, we can understand it by applying our reason, that it is such-and-such weight, it is measured with the mind. This is called the categorical imperative. The next, third step, is called the transcendental dialectic. In this stage, beyond reasoning, the mind seeks to understand everything, but the sense information is inadequate, so it tries to go beyond sense experience.

Prabhupāda: How?

Śyāmasundara: He says the mind is aware that there is an ultimate reality, or a thing in itself, a noumenon, which produces each phenomenon, but the mind is not equipped to sense this ultimate reality. So the mind must remain forever content to be agnostic.

Prabhupāda: No. He should go to higher authorities. Why should he remain agnostic? If there is possibility, mind cannot go beyond this, but if the same thing, we say upon the roof there is some sound, now we speculate, but we cannot ascertain what is the sound. But if somebody is actually there, he says, "This sound is due to this." So why I shall remain satisfied with agnostic position, that I could not ascertain what is the sound, and therefore I shall remain satisfied? I shall say, "Is there anybody on the roof?" If somebody says, "Yes. I am here," "Will you kindly say what is the sound?" "Yes: this, that, this, that." Therefore Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārtham: that which is beyond your senses, you must approach a spiritual master. He will give you information. That is our system, accepting guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One who is inquisitive to understand the transcendental subject, he must approach a guru. What is guru? Śābde pare ca niṣṇātam: guru, who is expert or well versed in the Vedic literatures, śruti. And what is the result? How can I understand that he is well versed in Vedic literature? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayaḥ. He has forgotten everything material; he is simply concerned with the spirit soul. That's all. Everything is there. So Kant here is imperfect in his knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Actually, he is just exploring this possibility, that because we can't know it by our senses therefore we must…

Prabhupāda: That is misleading. Nobody can ascertain in that way. That is not possible. In the śāstras it is said that panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamya. He is thinking he is a man living for fifty or sixty or a hundred years. But if somebody is there, just like modern, these sputnik scientists, they say that if one can go forty thousands of years at the speed of light, he can approach the topmost planet. So śāstra says even one goes forty thousands of years, still you won't find where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa's abode. Not only at the speed of light, but he says the speed of mind and air. Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām: [Bs. 5.34] still, the subject matter which is beyond my senses will remain the same, beyond my senses. This material attempt will not help. Never. There is another verse that adhane gopī chindan vidhena ataḥ pudedevo padamjadayan (?): "Dear Lord, a devotee who has got a little grace from your lotus feet, padamjadaya (?), he can understand You. Others, they may speculate for millions of years. Still it is not possible." Just like Kṛṣṇa says that manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of people, one is interested to make his life successful, and out of millions of successful…" Successful means one who understands that I am not this body. You ask, you take census, in this Nairobi city, you will find that 99.9%, or more than that, people do not know what he is. Everyone knows that "I am this body." So perfection of life means one who understands that "I am not this body…" They become impersonalists, something like that, or voidists. Out of them-those who have understood perfection, that "I am not this body"-one can understand Kṛṣṇa. Out of many thousands of people who have attained actual perfect. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is actually not so easy, but these devotees are actually realizing Kṛṣṇa. Why? By the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Because the devotees are engaged in His service, He is revealing Himself. That is the process. Not by this, Kant's speculation. It is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He says that although this ultimate reality appears unknowable, still the mind seeks to discover it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He cannot be satisfied. He is seeking Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he says that the real world or the ultimate reality becomes a reconstruction of the mind by speculationists; that they take the contents of this world and reproduce it into what they believe to be the real world.

Prabhupāda: By speculation, the real world for them is negation of this world. That is voidism. I am experiencing everything here material, so this material thinking and other material thinking induces him to conclude that it must be opposite. It must be opposite. This is material. So spiritual means not this form, or formless, or void. So that is also material thinking. Just the opposite number.

Śyāmasundara: He is still proceeding in his method. He comes to some good conclusions. He is trying to understand what makes men's minds work. He says that "Thus this real world becomes an ideal construction in the mind of man."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ideal construction… Here we are frustrated because everything is temporary; therefore ideal is eternal. That much we can understand. Temporary. Just like I want to live; that is my tendency. Nobody wants to die. But I am hopeless, because this body is not eternal. Therefore ideal life is eternal body.

Śyāmasundara: He says but the mind makes a mistake to apply these categories of reason to achieve transcendental knowledge. Because it realizes the futility of this…

Prabhupāda: This must be. One who goes with mental speculation, he must fail. Therefore our process is not mental speculation-to receive knowledge from the perfect.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that man tends to create ideas about the universe which transcend the bounds of experience, and this is what he calls the third stage, or the transcendental dialectic. He says these ideas which transcend the bounds of experience are the realm of pure reason. He calls it pure reason, or transcendental reason. And these are not fictions, but these spring from the very nature of reason itself, these transcendental ideas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I already explained: transcendental. We are seeking eternity. I find myself as a soul; I am eternal; so I must seek an eternal world. This is not my place. I am eternal. The same example: just like fish taken from the water, he is not finding comfortable life. So when the fish is thrown in the water, then it is comfortable. Similarly, I am spirit soul. I am not feeling comfortable with this material body. Therefore the right conclusion is how to go to the spiritual world or attain a spiritual body. That information we are getting from Bhagavad-gītā, that one who understands Kṛṣṇa or develops his love for Kṛṣṇa, how to see Kṛṣṇa, then he gets a spiritual body to see Kṛṣṇa. Because if one is very much anxious, these thoughts will continue, and at the time of his death, ending this body, if he is filled up with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is immediately transferred. That is assured in the Bhagavad-gītā by Kṛṣṇa. So our business should be: Kṛṣṇa is eternal; Kṛṣṇa says, "I have spoken to sun-god, forty millions of years ago." Arjuna says, "How is that?" and He says that "That is the nature: I do not forget, you forget." So Kṛṣṇa's body is eternal, because forgetfulness is due to change of body. As I do not remember what happened in my last life, that means I have to change my body. And Kṛṣṇa remembers; therefore He does not change His body. Is it not? I forget. Why do I forget? Because I change my body. But Kṛṣṇa does not. That means He does not change His body. That is eternal body. And śāstra also confirms, sat-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ. So if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you get also a similar body like Kṛṣṇa. If you get a material body, why not a spiritual body? It requires simply a process, how to get a spiritual body. So these things they do not know.

Śyāmasundara: He's getting a hint, Kant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By intellectual speculation one may get some hint, but not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He says, for instance, that this pure reason or this transcendental reason is there to guide man to an understanding of wider knowledge, to guide his understanding to knowledge, and that the aim of this pure reason is to find the totality of synthesis, in other words, to understand everything. By knowing the ultimate reality, one will understand everything.

Prabhupāda: So simply by understanding that he is spirit, gradually he understands that there is a spiritual world. This spiritual world is full of varieties. Everything is there, exactly like this, but that is eternal and this is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this pure reason has a regulative value, that is, by attempting to grasp the totality of conditions by connecting a particular phenomenon with the whole experience. In other words, for example, the idea of a supreme being is a regulative principle of reason because it tells us to view everything in the world in connection, as if it proceeded from the necessary cause, or the Supreme Being.

Prabhupāda: The Supreme Being is the cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he says to suppose, or to use my pure reason, to come to the conclusion that there is a Supreme Being is a regulative function, because it makes everything regular. By coming to the conclusion that there is a Supreme Being, the rest of everything, all phenomena, become regulated in relationship with the Supreme Being. This is the natural impulse.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My direction the whole material nature is working, and everything is going on," hetunānena kaunteya, jagat viparivartate. On this account, everything in this cosmic manifestation is going on regularly. All Vedic śāstras describe like that, that behind these phenomena there is a direction of a person, and He is the Supreme Person.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this is a natural impulse, that it is the nature of reason itself to find regularity, a total regularity, for everything. So that it must suppose that there is a Supreme Being in order to find that total synthesis.

Prabhupāda: So in your preaching you can use this Kant's statement, how he is confirming the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā directly says and he as a philosopher has found out that this is a fact. So this may help in our preaching work.

Śyāmasundara: He says that phenomena are so endless that it is impossible to arrive at ultimate reality by the reason alone, because there are certain what he calls transcendental illusions.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take Kṛṣṇa's assertion. I am puzzled with these varieties of phenomenal changes, and you cannot understand how these things are being done. But as soon as you come to Kṛṣṇa, He says that "I am behind this. I am doing it." Then your conclusion is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that when you examine material phenomena by your reason, you come to certain contradictions, and he calls them antimonies. He lists four antimonies. An antimony means both sides are true.

Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit it is called bhiruda dharma-words that mean both "yes" and "no." He can adjust-yes and no, both.

Śyāmasundara: He says logically these are not fallacious; both sides are true. For instance, his first antimony is, "The world has a beginning in time and is enclosed in limits of space." This is the thesis. Then the antithesis is, "The world has no beginning in time and no limits in space, but is infinite with regard to both time and space." So he says reasonably both conclusions are true.

Prabhupāda: So how to adjust? How to adjust is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. It says this material phenomenal world is coming into existence and again annihilated. Again coming. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. So this material nature, coming in manifestation and again vanquished, this process, coming into existence and then vanquished, this is also true. Just like day and night, it is coming and going. This is true. But night is not day; day is not night.

Śyāmasundara: The first antimony describes the quantity of the world. The second antimony deals with the quality of the world. The thesis is, "Every composite substance in the world is made up of simple parts, and nothing whatever exists but the simple, or that which is composed out of the simple." And the antithesis is, "No composite thing in the world is made up of simple parts, nor does anything simple exist anywhere in the world." On the one hand, everything is simple, made up of simple parts. On the other hand, nothing is simple; everything is complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The simple is, we say, the whole world is made of material energy. This is simple. Now, the component parts of material energy, there are so many things-mahat-tattva, then pradhāna, then puruṣa, then twenty-four elements, the five gross elements, eight subtle elements, the five senses, the objects of the senses-and in this way there are so many analytical complications.

Śyāmasundara: So his third antimony is the causal, or relation (?) of the world. He says, first of all, thesis: "Causality in conformity with laws of nature is not the only causality from which all the phenomena of the world can be derived. To explain these phenomena it is necessary to suppose that there is also a free causality." And the antithesis is, "There is no freedom, but all that comes to be in the world takes place entirely in accordance with laws of nature." So on the one hand he is saying that sometimes we observe an exception to the laws of causality, that something happens which is completely uncaused or unexplainable, so that there must be no such thing as a strict law of cause and effect.

Prabhupāda: No. There is, strictly. He cannot explain-you do not know-but there must be some cause. Therefore ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa, or God.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes when there is some aberration…

Prabhupāda: There is no such thing as accident. We do not accept anything as accident. There cannot be any accident.

Śyāmasundara: So if you saw something miraculous, it could be explained that Kṛṣṇa…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Miracles means you cannot conceive how it is being done. The same example, as I said, that if you want to paint one rose flower you require so many things, but that also is not real rose flower. But imitation, it may be perfect, but you have to take so much trouble in collecting the paint, the colors, and your energy, then duration of work, and some day it may come out perfect. But the same energy is working so swiftly that you see automatically a rose flower is coming out. The same example again: just like this airplane, there are thousands of complicated electronic machinery arrangements, but you see that the pilot is simply pushing a button. That's all. But layman is seeing that "Simply by pushing a button, a miraculous thing is happening." But no, with the pushing of the button there are so many complicated machineries, they work one after another, one after another. So similarly, God's energy is so subtle that simply by His willing, the process takes place, but it takes place so swiftly and quickly, we see it as miracle. So there is no such thing as miracle. The process is there, but it acts so quickly and nicely, we see it as miracle. Just like a man is very innocent, illiterate, so servant, so I give a chit, "Just give it to Bhavānanda," Bhavānanda gives you ten thousand rupees. So he says, "Oh, what is this miracle? He writes some few lines and immediately ten thousand rupees came?" So to him, it is miracle. Isn't it? But Bhavānanda says "Prabhupāda wants ten thousand-I'll give him," that's all. He sees my signature and I want it. But this man does not know. He takes it as miracle: "Oh, a chit of paper brings immediately ten thousand rupees?" Miracles to the rascals, fools!

Śyāmasundara: So they can exist simultaneously. On one hand, there are very strict laws of nature, which no one can counteract. But on the other hand, we see something like Kṛṣṇa lifting the Govardhana Hill.

Prabhupāda: That is also not miracle. That is not miracle, because in the yoga-siddhi you can make anything lighter than this cotton. So Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. So by His yogic power He made the whole hill as a cotton swab. That is yogic principle. But for a layman, for a human being, he has to practice this yoga for millions of years; then he comes to perfection. But Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. By His will, immediately it is done. It is not a miracle. It is turning the whole thing. Just like Kṛṣṇa is floating so many big big planets in the air. These modern scientists can say all nonsense, but it is miracle, it is miracle to them. But to Kṛṣṇa it is not. Kṛṣṇa has got such a saṅkarṣaṇa. He has got some power, Yogeśvara. He can do that.

Śyāmasundara: What is this yogic power? What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: That is called laghimā siddhi, aṇimā siddhi, laghimā siddhi. Aṇimā, you become the smallest. The yogis, you pack in a box. I've seen it. Pack them in a box. One Mr. Cakravartī, (laughter) he was packed in… I told you, he was packed in a bag, it was sealed then put in a box. The box was locked, it was sealed, and he came out. I have seen it. That is called aṇimā siddhi. Simple: there must be some hole-however tightly you pack it, there is little hole-and the spirit soul is so little, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair, then comes out…

Śyāmasundara: And then he materializes another body outside.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And the other yogic powers?

Prabhupāda: There are eight kinds: aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti. Prāpti, now you are sitting here, now you have left something in London, you simply… (laughter). No telephone call; stretch your hand and get it. Prāpti. They can go by the beams of the sun in the sun globe. Prāpti. Then mahimā, you can become bigger than the biggest.

Śyāmasundara: How is that?

Prabhupāda: How is that? That you have to learn. (laughter) You practice yoga and you learn. Just like Hanumān, he jumped over the sea. So it is a question of becoming bigger. Just like you can jump over this space, but if you have got bigger body, then you can jump bigger space. That is called mahimā-siddhi. So if you increase you body proportionately, then you can cross the sea from here to here. Your legs become bigger and your jumping becomes more bigger. This is the process. It is called mahimā-siddhi. Again he carried the hill. Rāmacandra asked him, "You bring Me that medicine from there." He could not find it so he got up the whole hill. So those are yogic siddhis.

Śyāmasundara: What are the others?

Prabhupāda: Aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti, mahimā, prākāmya, īśitā, vaśitā. You can control anyone. Whatever you say, he will carry out. Any big man, you can put some influence. Vaśitā. Just like these this rascal Maharishi, he has got little yogic power. So he controls, gives you some mantra you'll become God and all this nonsense, but he is controlling. Whatever he'll ask, you will pay. That is control. Actually he is controlling his mind, that whatever he asks, you will do. These are bogus things.

Śyāmasundara: Like hypnotism.

Prabhupāda: By hypnotism, yes. I think I have discussed in The Nectar of Devotion. So this is possible even by ordinary yogis, and what to speak of Kṛṣṇa, who is known as Yogeśvara. He is the master of all mystic power. So one who does not know these things, they say, "Oh, these are all stories." It is not story. It is no miracle. They are all possible. So there is no such thing as miracle. It is a process of doing. One must know how to do it. There is no miracle. We don't say anything miracle. But for appreciating, you can say it is. You see Kṛṣṇa is said as Yogeśvara, master of all mystic yoga processes: yatra yogeśvara hari. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said. So our yogic power is, our yoga process is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. He'll act, and you'll get the credits. (laughter) Just like our movement: Kṛṣṇa is doing and I am getting the credit. (laughter) Yes. Why should we bother about acquiring all this mystic power? Just depend on Kṛṣṇa. He is Yogeśvara. He'll do everything, and you'll get the credit. And Kṛṣṇa wants that. Just like his advice to Arjuna, "This is already planned. You don't think that if you do not fight they'll go back. That is not possible. But you simply take the credit, that's all."

Śyāmasundara: His fourth antimony relates to the modality of the world, whether or not the world requires an absolute being. First of all, that is the thesis: "There exists an absolutely necessary being, which belongs to the world either as a part or as a cause of it," and the antithesis is, "There nowhere exists an absolutely necessary being, either in the world or outside of the world, as its cause." So by reason alone one can either say that there is a God or that there is not a God.

Prabhupāda: There is a God. That is reason. And how can one support that there is no God? What is that reason?

Śyāmasundara: Well, strictly according to these categories of quality, quantity, relation and modality, it is possible also to conclude that there is nothing beyond the material nature. If one uses only the senses…

Prabhupāda: But where do you get your senses?

Śyāmasundara: One could say that they are only a combination of matter.

Prabhupāda: But where does the matter come from?

Śyāmasundara: According to material reasoning, one could say that there is no necessary source of matter; it is not necessary to conclude that there is a cause of matter.

Prabhupāda: But we see that matter is growing. Just like a tree is matter, it is growing.

Śyāmasundara: It may have been eternally existing.

Prabhupāda: How eternally existing? The tree is not eternally existing. This brass pot is metal. Somebody has made it.

Śyāmasundara: But the matter itself could have been eternally existing.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, matter also, we see, just like the tree is growing. The tree is wood. Wood is also matter. Stone is also growing. So how is it growing?

Śyāmasundara: Well, strictly materially speaking, I could say, well, there are some material reasons…

Prabhupāda: Just like my material body, it has grown. There was no existence, but combination of father and mother, the body is made and it grows, and again it is vanquished. That is the nature of matter. It takes birth at a certain moment, it grows, then it makes by-products, then it dwindles, then vanquishes. This is the nature of matter, any matter, anything you take. This material world is also like that. All these trees, they have grown up, and when they are grown up, you take the wood, you make houses, you make boxes, you make bedsteads, and so many things. But it is a fact that the trees have grown up from the seed. And wherefrom the seed comes?

Śyāmasundara: From the father tree.

Prabhupāda: Father tree. Now Kṛṣṇa says, bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the cause of everything.

Śyāmasundara: Well, his point is that these contradictions-saying that "There is a God," "There is no God"-these contradictions only arise because the reason attempts to apply its categories to the transcendent of the absolute, whereas these categories are only applicable to empirical experience. In other words, by reason alone I cannot…

Prabhupāda: This is by reason only. I see everything is growing; therefore the whole cosmic manifestation must have grown from a source. This is reason.

Śyāmasundara: This is transcendental reason.

Prabhupāda: No. Common reason. Every matter is growing from a certain source, so therefore this material world must have grown from a certain source.

Śyāmasundara: How could some people look at the seed of a tree and come to a different conclusion?

Prabhupāda: From a source. Therefore the perfect reason is that this cosmic manifestation. Also we get from authoritative books, Vedic literature, how it has grown.

Śyāmasundara: How is it that someone else could apply their material reason and come to a different conclusion?

Prabhupāda: What is that reason? How can he prove? He must have proved by his experience. Thus his experience proving that things are… The man who is talking of this nonsense can he prove that he is born without his father? How is that? How his existing is there? How his material body came into existence? It was caused by his father. Then how can he deny the cause? His very existence is depending upon some cause.

Śyāmasundara: So according to one point of view, Hume's point of view, cause and effect are not necessarily related, that they are habitually connected.

Prabhupāda: The scientist, he'll say that the father begets the child. Why it is not related? It is simply lunacy not to believe this. Where is the instance that without father some child has taken birth? Where is such instance? He himself is talking such nonsense. He is born by his father. The cause is his father. Similarly, his father is also the effect of his father. Therefore there is supreme father, father of this cosmic manifestation. How you can deny it? That is the defect of the speculators: they contradict themselves.

Śyāmasundara: This is just what he is saying, that whenever you try to speculate about the Absolute you will run into contradictions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So contradiction mean imperfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge means who sticks to his principles. That is perfect knowledge. One who does not stick to his original proposal, his knowledge is imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that by trying to apply their reason to the transcendental, that they naturally will run into trouble, that there will be contradictions in their thought. By trying to apply these empirical categories to the transcendental, naturally there will be these contradictions. They will not be able to discover the real nature of things because there is always some contradiction by using the reason.

Prabhupāda: Without fixed up conclusion, there is contradiction. Our fixed-up conclusion is that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. How, one after another, the categories are developed, that is in the Vedic literature. But it is summarized that Kṛṣṇa desired or He put His glance over the material nature and the material nature became impregnated, and then He delivered so many things. Matter and spirit have combined together, and the whole cosmic manifestation has come into being.

Śyāmasundara: To go back to this idea of cause and effect, Kant says that just as time and space are a priori concepts or mental creations-in other words, before we have any sense experience, we still have an idea of time and space-just as this is so, so also cause and effect is a priori category of human understanding.

Prabhupāda: So that a priori existence is there, time and space.

Śyāmasundara: Time and space, and cause and effect.

Prabhupāda: I take my birth and at a certain time time. So time was existing before my birth, and after my death time will continue to exist. Similarly, space. But, temporarily, I take some time. That is the duration of my life. Or I am occupying some space. This is temporary. Time and space are eternally there. At least time is eternally there, because space is also born in time.

Śyāmasundara: How is that?

Prabhupāda: That we get from Bhāgavata. Because this material space is also ākāśa, it is born of the finer subtle mind and intelligence. In the Bhāgavata the description is there. Space is also the creation.

Śyāmasundara: So this Hume has said that cause and effect are habitual assumptions, that we can naturally assume that a certain effect follows a certain cause. But it is not necessary that the cause makes the effect.

Prabhupāda: No. We disagree with that. Without cause there cannot be any effect. Let him prove that this is…, there is an existence without any cause. Then he can say like that.

Śyāmasundara: Hume's example is if we find a footprint on the beach, normally we can assume that a human being left it…

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Why normally? That is factually.

Śyāmasundara: Still, it remains a probability.

Prabhupāda: Why probability?

Śyāmasundara: It is possible that something else left the footprint.

Prabhupāda: How is it possible?

Śyāmasundara: There could have been a cast made of another foot, and someone else could have made it. Other possibilities could exist.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsensical. Someone will come and make a footprint to mislead you! That is also caused. (laughter) So it is a foolish idea. That is also caused-someone came; there is cause.

Śyāmasundara: This is just what Kant is saying. He says, no, still we are born with an idea of cause and effect. This is a priori…

Prabhupāda: No. This is fact: cause and effect is always there.

Śyāmasundara: He says that intuitively, when we see something, we understand what is cause and what is effect.

Prabhupāda: You cannot understand what is the cause, but there must be cause. There must be cause. Without cause, nothing can happen. That is his imperfect knowledge, that something may happen without cause. No. That does not happen.

Śyāmasundara: For example, the idea of the bird flying on the limb and the fruit. Either the bird caused the fruit to fall, or it fell, but the cause is still there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Either you accept this cause or that cause, that is a different thing, but cause must be there. So this example is given that they are fighting unnecessarily to find out the cause. But cause is there. Just like some foolish person enquired when the living entity became fallen. What is the use of this question? Simply take it is fallen.

Śyāmasundara: There is a cause.

Prabhupāda: There is a cause. Now, you may not find out the cause, just like here is a diseased man, and there is some cause. So instead of finding out the cause, you go on treating the disease. Get it cured. But cause must be there. Otherwise he is infected, why others are not infected? The cause must be there.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the laws of physics are not inherent in nature, but they are modes of thought.

Prabhupāda: No. This is also nonsense. There is a law. All physical things which are going on, there is a law. Just like while the temperature is below zero, the water becomes solid. That is a physical law.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That happens when it is below zero, but our understanding of that phenomenon, that law of physics, is only because of our thought process. Our thought process analyzes it.

Prabhupāda: Analysis is also thought process, but you cannot think that when the water becomes solid, at a certain temperature, you cannot think that it is liquid. This is factual. (indistinct) Here is a medical man; there is disease. We may not find out, but he knows it must have been caused.

Śyāmasundara: What he is saying is that so that water may freeze, physical nature goes through changes, but it only becomes a law in our minds, when we begin to think about it.

Prabhupāda: Why in your mind? That is the law. When the temperature is reduced to a certain point, the water becomes frozen and becomes solid. That is the law. How can you say without law?

Śyāmasundara: But the concept of law is a mode of thought.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is imperfect human society. But nature's law, God's law, is not like that. Nature's law: just like fire burns; it burns everywhere. It is fact, perpetually. It is not that in certain cases it burns and in certain cases it does not. It burns. Even a child touches the fire, it will burn. No consideration. Just like in human law, a child steals and an adult steals. Court excuses, "He is a child. Let him be." But nature's law is not like that. The fire, whether adult touches or a child touches, it must burn. That is nature's law.

Śyāmasundara: When we conceive of "fire burns," we are shaping an interpretation of the phenomenon. We have experienced it, so we shape an interpretation, and that becomes a law in our minds.

Prabhupāda: What is that law in the mind, you may think or may not think, the law will act. (laughter) Simply speculation. It has no meaning. It is called jugglery of words, that's all. To some foolish men, he is accepted as a great philosopher, but it is simply jugglery of words, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says because the mind imposes a priori these laws upon nature as both necessary and universal, that proves that the mind is creative and that it's not a blank slate or tabula rasa.

Prabhupāda: Mind is creative, that's a fact. Creative. He is creating and again rejecting. That is the mind's business, saṅkalpa-vikalpa.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that to apply those four categories of reason onto objects in order to understand them, he says this creates certain knowledge, and so that further judgment beyond these categories would be guesswork or unprovable dogma. But, he says, still the mind is not satisfied with these partial explanations. Even though knowledge that transcends these categories is guesswork, still the mind desires to know something beyond them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called philosophy. That inquisitiveness is called philosophy. Cause of the cause: this is caused by this; what is the cause of this? Unless he comes to the final cause, this research goes on. That is the nature of advanced mind. They are called munis, those who are very thoughtful. So that is the nature of greater mind, mahātmā, to find out the ultimate cause. That is human nature. Therefore, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta-sūtra says this jijñāsā, inquiry, "What is after this? What is after this? What is brāhmaṇas? What is Brahman? This is not Brahman. This is not Brahman…" The next answer is that "Brahman means janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1], the supreme source from where everything emanates." So unless he goes to the supreme source, he is not satisfied. So those who are going by mental speculation, they come to that impersonal feature. Then, if he makes further advancement, just like in Īśopaniṣad, that "You wind up Your glaring impersonal feature so that we can see You brightly." So this glaring impersonal Brahman, if you go, penetrate, again through this impersonal Brahman, when you come to Kṛṣṇa, then you will be satisfied. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: [Bg. 7.19] after researching in this way, speculating, researching and researching and researching, bahūnāṁ janmanām, birth after birth, and when he comes to the conclusion that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19], that mahātmā is rare.

(break-continues next day)

Śyāmasundara: Yesterday we were discussing Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, wherein he tried simply through exercising his reason to understand the totality of things. Today we will discuss the conclusions of that particular attempt at pure reason. He says that man, after the futility of applying this categorical analysis to transcendental knowledge, then he attempts to create ideas about the universe which transcend his experience. He finds his efforts fail when he tries to understand more than material nature, so he tries to create ideals about that which transcends his experience.

Prabhupāda: So he fails in the material knowledge, and then he attains transcendental knowledge. What is this?

Śyāmasundara: He fails to understand transcendental knowledge by applying the techniques of material knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means with material senses you cannot go to the transcendental knowledge. Then how can he form ideas of transcendence?

Śyāmasundara: Well, in this particular attempt Kant is trying to form those ideas purely through the reason. Pure reason.

Prabhupāda: You say that material senses cannot reach transcendence. Then what is the meaning of reasoning? If your senses are imperfect, so if you put some reason by the senses, then that is also imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that reason acts a priori, or separate from the senses, independent of the senses; that reason can understand that there is God, there is soul, etc., without use of the senses.

Prabhupāda: That is possible.

Śyāmasundara: In fact he recognizes three such ideals of pure reason: one is the soul, two is the ultimate world or reality, and three is God. He says that these three ideals are a priori to the reason. They are born with us. We know these things.

Prabhupāda: That is also true. We also accept. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti. Our tendency to offer service to the Lord, that is natural. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that He is eternal servant; therefore that tendency should be natural. But it is some way or another covered by material ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: He says whereas sense perception cannot provide the information about the soul and about God, pure reason can penetrate into the unknowable and provide us with conceptions in order to grasp the whole of reality.

Prabhupāda: This is not very clear, that sense perception cannot reach soul. But he says that reason is beyond the senses.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that we can grasp conceptions of God and soul and reality through the use of pure reason.

Prabhupāda: How the reason is exercised?

Śyāmasundara: He comes to the conclusion that these ideals of perfect knowledge are set up, but they are unprovable and unknowable. We can never know any more than that, that there is God, there is soul, there is reality, but we cannot know anything more than that. We don't have any more information than that.

Prabhupāda: Anything cannot be known more than that by his personal attempt. But they can be known through a process which is called paramparā.

Śyāmasundara: He says they cannot be known through pure reason alone. Later he admits they can be known in other ways. But purely through the exercise of reason, we cannot know that there is anything about God or anything about soul, even though we may know they exist.

Prabhupāda: When God speaks, then it is possible. That is our process. We hear from God-what, where, how He is-therefore our knowledge is perfect. According to Kant, one cannot reach by reason and senses. Avāṅ-manasā gocaraḥ. That's a fact. That is admitted in Vedas: avāṅ-manasā gocaraḥ. Vana means words, mana means mind. Neither by words, neither by the mind one can reach. But it is a fact that he is convinced there is God, so if God speaks, God descends by His causeless mercy and speaks, then you can understand about God.

Śyāmasundara: He comes to that point in a way by saying that he has limited all that we can know to mere phenomena, and he has therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge of God, freedom and immortality in order to find a place for faith. In other words, he says that through the reason and the senses we cannot know anything about God, soul, immortality or freedom, so the rest has to be done by faith.

Prabhupāda: No. Faith, that is a compromise, you see. That is not fact. But this is good that he admits that we cannot approach the final God by our senses or reason. To have faith, that is also not perfect. Therefore the Western philosophers, they have created different faiths, and religion means faith. Somebody may believe in some faith, others may believe in another faith. But that is not factual. The factual is this: if we are actually convinced that there is God, and God is omnipotent, so by His omnipotency He descends. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. "Whenever there is discrepancies in the process of religious principles," abhyutthānam adharmasya tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "when people become irreligious, at that time I descend." He descends for two reasons: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8], for relief of the devotees. Devotees are always anxious to see God, but somehow or other they are unable to see. Of course, they are seeing God, but at the same time face to face(?). So in order to give them relief God descends to be seen face to face. The other reason is that vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām: rascals, miscreants, to kill them. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa, Rāvaṇa, they are the symbolic representations of miscreants. So to kill them. Two things. So one may say that God is partial. No. God is not partial. God is kind to everyone, both to the devotees and to the demons. The demons being killed by God, they get immediate salvation, whereas the devotees, by seeing God, they can understand what is actually the position of God. So God displays himself factually as He does in the spiritual world in Vṛndāvana. His nature is to play with the cowherd boys, to dance with the gopīs. These things are actually displayed, and devotees became encouraged that "After finishing this material body, we are going to Kṛṣṇa, or God, to join these pastimes of the Lord." This is called paritrāṇāya sādhūnām. Sādhus, they heard from the śāstras, but Kṛṣṇa practically demonstrates. So they become doubly confirmed, doubly assured what they are going to have next life. So these things, the transcendental world, God, His activities, we hear. By hearing also we realize. Because God is absolute, therefore to see Him and to hear about Him, there is no difference. There cannot be any difference. By seeing eye to eye or to hear about Him, the same thing.

Śyāmasundara: So after he finished his investigation about what the limits are of pure reason, then he began his critique of practical reason.

Prabhupāda: This is to be understood, that however expert logician you may be, this is not possible, by your reasons, by your knowledge, to approach the Supreme Absolute. That is not possible. This process that when God descends Himself and He speaks about Himself, He demonstrates about His pastimes, then it is possible. So the Bhāgavata is the record of God's descents. The whole Bhāgavata is philosophy about God, theology about God, and practical demonstration of God. Therefore anyone who takes to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or the process of understanding God through Bhagavad-gītā, therefore it is called Bhāgavata, and it is simply about God. Bhagavad-gītā, God speaks Himself about His activities, and Bhāgavata is the record of God's activities, pastimes, and when He appeared on this earth, just like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Ninth Canto. Nine cantos are devoted for understanding the transcendental nature of God, and the Tenth Canto is practical demonstration of God's activities before the eyes of the people of the world. But those who are miscreants, they think that Kṛṣṇa, or God, He is like an ordinary man but a superhuman being. That's all. But that is actually the position of God. By His causeless mercy He demonstrates Himself to be convincing. So instead of philosophizing, the people take to these two books, Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and if he practices the process, then he will understand God.

Śyāmasundara: After Kant finished this analysis of the pure reason, then he began his Critique of Practical Reason, of reason applied to practical living, to try to find out what were the limits of that study. This is his idea: moral laws are necessary and universal objects of the human will, which must be accepted as valid for everyone. He calls this his categorical imperative. That means that there are certain moral commandments which are universal, and which must be applied to everyone, and which everyone must obey without exception. Now, he says that we know these moral laws a priori, by intuition, and that the individual fact and the situations have no bearing, and there is no consideration of what I want or what I desire, but what I must do, what I ought to do.

Prabhupāda: No. Morality varies according to the development of the particular society. There are so many immoral things going on in the particular type of society which are very, very immoral, but they do not care for it; they do it.

Śyāmasundara: There is no universal morality?

Prabhupāda: Universal morality is to obey God, that's all. This is universal morality.

Śyāmasundara: But are any of God's laws fixed…

Prabhupāda: That is included. If you obey God, then all the laws are also included. That is the universal morality. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Just become My servitor, always think of Me, just offer obeisances unto Me," that is morality.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, that's the basis for morality?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many immoral things going on that are accepted as morality. How can you find out?

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are…

Prabhupāda: I do not wish to say that in the Koran it is said that "From this day you should stop intercourse with mother."

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are…

Prabhupāda: Does it not say in the Koran? Yes. I've seen one Koran translation. Such a society. Similarly, Lord Jesus Christ said that "You shall not kill." So, so many immoral things are going on that are accepted as not sinful.

Śyāmasundara: He recognizes this, and he says that there are certain imperatives that we are born with, that we know are…

Prabhupāda: What are these? He should say practically. The certain, imperative morality is this: that you should be obedient to God. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the standard for the categorical imperative is that one should act only in such a way that he would want his action to be followed by everyone. In other words, sort of "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you." That is his…

Prabhupāda: This is a compromise. This is not morality.

Śyāmasundara: That you should act only in such a way that your action, you would want everyone in the world to act in the same way. You would want it to be a universal law.

Prabhupāda: So you can allow me to do in my own way, and I allow you to do in your own way.

Śyāmasundara: He uses the example of breaking a promise. He says that if the opportunity is there to break a promise, I should never break the promise, because I would never want anyone else to break a promise.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on, man-made laws. But that is not morality. That standard of morality is one in one country and just the opposite in another country.

Śyāmasundara: But isn't the breaking of a promise a universal moral command, that one should never break his promise, whether it is here or other countries?

Prabhupāda: Well that's all right, but for practical purposes they are breaking promises at every moment.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He understands this, but his idea, he wants to get to the basis of morality by saying that…

Prabhupāda: That is a good quality. That is brahminical quality, not to break promise, to be truthful. That is goodness.

Śyāmasundara: This is an example of how one should look at his actions; that he should judge his own actions according to what he would want everyone else to do, and that these must be…

Prabhupāda: But it is not possible that everyone will be able to do. Just like you become truthful. It may be universal truth, but you do not expect that everyone will be truthful. That is not possible. Therefore it is not universal. It is meant for certain types of men. How can he say this is universal?

Śyāmasundara: But he says that the fact that I ought to do this implies that I can do it, and everyone can do it.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. I ought to do it, but I cannot do it. So there is therefore a scientific method of classification of people. That is varṇāśrama. Certain people cannot do it, although they know they ought to do it. He is a śūdra. And a man who does it practically, he is brāhmaṇa. So therefore there must be classification. This class of men, they know that this is good and they do it, and the other class, either they do not know, or even they do know, they cannot do it. So therefore there must be distinction between these two classes of men. Therefore this classification, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: [Bg. 4.13] "The four classes of men, it is designed by Me." But you cannot find all men of the same level. Therefore there must be a class of men who are to be called brāhmaṇa, a class of men who are to be called kṣatriyas, a class of men who are to be called vaiśyas, and a class to be called śūdras. That is a natural division. Because in this world, you cannot find all men of the equal level, on the same platform. That is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these moral imperatives or these moral commands must be obeyed without exception.

Prabhupāda: That is nice, but it is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: Individual circumstances should not have any bearing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the basic principles of civilization should be that those who are unable to do it, they should be trained up. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are elevating persons from the lowest level to the highest level. That we are actually doing. So these four classes of men exist, but by education, by training, the lowest class of men can be elevated to the highest class. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: It is true that if there are certain laws, moral commandments, that I should follow them regardless of individual exception? There are no exceptions, regardless…

Prabhupāda: That is brahminical qualification. A brāhmaṇa shall be truthful in all circumstances. Even before his enemy, he will disclose everything, what is truth. That is brahminical qualification, whereas kṣatriya, he is a diplomat. Although he is truthful, but he will not be truthful before his enemy.

Śyāmasundara: Because his function is different.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He says that duty is one's individual obligation to obey the categorical imperative by choosing the morally right action. In other words, duty means it is my duty to choose the morally right action, free from emotion.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, as soon as you say duty, duty should be prescribed by some higher authority. In that sense, this system is very scientific: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. It is very scientific. For brāhmaṇa, these are the duties; a kṣatriya, these are the duties. Every duty may appear different, but because it is a command of the Supreme, by discharging these duties on different platform, he is serving the Supreme. If Kṛṣṇa says, "All right, I see you are a brāhmaṇa. Your duties are like this," "I see you are a kṣatriya. Your duties are like this," "I see you are a vaiśya. Your duties are like this…" But Kṛṣṇa says cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. I have divided, so Kṛṣṇa gives duty, that "Your duty is this, your duty is this, and your duty is this." And if he faithfully serves the duty, that means he is serving Kṛṣṇa. The duties may appear different, but because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is going to perfection. Just like in our institution, I am the head man, so I may say, "You paint. You preach. You type. You do this." So the duties may be different, but by discharging duty, you are serving me; therefore you are perfect. Similarly, duties are given by the Supreme. Because I see that you are a śūdra, you cannot discharge the duties of a brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. So you do your duty like this. So superficially it may seem that a śūdra's duty is inferior to the brāhmaṇa's duty, but if the śūdra is performing his duty in accordance to the order of the Supreme, then he is also serving. The service is the main point. The same example of our body, that the duty of eyes, seeing, it is different from the duty of the legs, walking. But walking and seeing, both of them are being utilized for the whole body; therefore all of them are useful. So there cannot be any fixed-up duty, neither is everyone able to follow the same principles. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific. That is to be understood.

Śyāmasundara: So ideally it is the moral obligation of everyone to obey the moral command, but…

Prabhupāda: Not moral command-the supreme command. What is moral for you, it may be immoral for others. One man's food is another man's poison. So therefore Kṛṣṇa says to Yudhiṣṭhira, "Go and tell lies." That is moral. Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "What is this nonsense? You fight. Kill them." That is moral. So moral means to obey Kṛṣṇa's order, God's order. That is morality. You cannot create morality. You are imperfect. Your senses are imperfect. You do not know what is actually moral. Therefore we should implicitly, blindly follow the orders of Kṛṣṇa or His representative. That is moral.

Śyāmasundara: So the real categorical imperative is to obey the Supreme.

Prabhupāda: That is right. That is moral. Other things, all immoral.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we must follow our duty-not mechanically, but out of respect for it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose if I say that "You do this," just like Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and say Droṇācārya." So unless he has got implicit faith… Yudhiṣṭhira was lacking that implicit faith. Therefore he said, "How can I say such lies?" But Arjuna is better than Yudhiṣṭhira. He thought that "Although I am thinking it is very moral not to kill my relatives, but Kṛṣṇa likes it, I must do it." That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that ethics or morality should be institutionalized, regardless of the individual circumstances.

Prabhupāda: He comes to the circumstances. Therefore the morality should be according to the circumstances.

Śyāmasundara: He says the opposite: regardless of individual circumstances, everyone should follow the moral imperative. But we say that circumstances determine how one follows.

Prabhupāda: Then suppose the (indistinct) state, "Thou shalt not kill." So why killing is going on?

Śyāmasundara: In wars.

Prabhupāda: In any circumstances. It is not that killing is stopped, although the state is meant for prohibiting killing. But there is still in the slaughterhouse killing is going on, in war killing is going on, and so many other places killing is going on.

Śyāmasundara: He is thinking of it more as a personal way of determining how to act, like "I should not act counter to this moral imperative."

Prabhupāda: No. Because suppose that a snake is here and it is dangerous; he'll bite. So killing is necessary. But if you say, "No. I shall not kill this snake. Let it bite. All right, let them all die…" These are simply mental speculations. He has no perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He has the idea that we know what is morally right.

Prabhupāda: You do not know what is morally right! Therefore you have to take instruction from Kṛṣṇa, or His representative. You do not know.

Śyāmasundara: A priori we are not born with knowledge of what is right?

Prabhupāda: No. A priori, in this sense, that imperceptively I have got obedience to Kṛṣṇa, or God-everyone. That is manifested even in uncivilized men. Whenever they see a thunderbolt, they offer prayer. Just like these Africans, they are coming here, offering obeisances. That is inborn. Although we say they are not civilized, but that thing is there, that we are sādhus, or here is God. So that is there. But it is not very much manifest.

Śyāmasundara: So we don't really know, but we have some idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there, everywhere.

Śyāmasundara: He says it is not the act itself which is good or bad but the will behind the act.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will is sometimes not manifest. Therefore one has to take the help of superior person to develop that willingness.

Śyāmasundara: He says when we see an activity, it's not the act that's good or bad…

Prabhupāda: Just like a child: its will is there, but it has to be developed by the teacher. So he develops his willingness to study more and more and he becomes a scholar. But the will is there already.

Śyāmasundara: But he says when you see an action, the act itself cannot be judged as good or bad, but the will behind the act may be good or bad. That's how we have to judge good or bad, by the will behind the act.

Prabhupāda: That is not very important subject, unless there is willing. So that good or bad also has to be trained. The conditioned soul, anyone in this material world, he is in ignorance. It is called darkness. This material world is called darkness. Everyone, more or less, they are in darkness. The Vedas therefore say, "Don't remain in darkness. Go to the light." And the spiritual world is light. Just like day and night. Side by side there is day and night, or sunlight and darkness. So the Vedas say "Don't remain in darkness. Go to the light." So willingness in darkness is imperfect. So this willingness has to be dragged to the light. That requires superior help.

Śyāmasundara: What he is saying by that is just like if you see a soldier killing, you can't say that the action is good or bad, of his killing; but the will behind it-if his will is to serve the state-then the will is good, so the killing is good. But if you see the man killing someone on the street for his money, then you can say that the will is bad, so the killing is bad. So the action itself of killing is neither good nor bad, but the will behind the killing is what determines if an action is good or bad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that will has to be trained. Otherwise he will manufacture that "I am doing this in good sense; therefore it is good." He will manufacture his idea. That is nonsense. Therefore you require guidance.

Śyāmasundara: So there is no inborn idea of that is always correct.

Prabhupāda: Even inborn there is, you must get it confirmed by the superior.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man, because he respects the moral law and practices it, is a personality having infinite dignity. He believes in the dignity of man based upon his adherence to moral principles. If a man follows moral principles, then he has dignity, which is different than any other…

Prabhupāda: That is already explained, that varṇāśrama-dharma, because the brāhmaṇas, they follow the good laws, therefore dignity. A brāhmaṇa is supposed to be the first-class man in the society, and therefore they are honored.

Śyāmasundara: He says everything else has an exchange value or a price, but man alone possesses self-direction or dignity, and this is priceless, and so we should never stoop to sell ourselves. If we sell ourselves like a commodity, then we lose our dignity.

Prabhupāda: That dignity is his inherent quality of obedience to the Supreme. That we should not sacrifice. Here, modern civilization is that he knows that he is not independent, he is subordinate to God's will. Still, artificially, to defy God he is manufacturing so many philosophies, hypocrisy.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that men sell themselves like commodities. In order to get something, they sell themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To get some popularity, to get some money, to get some adoration, he sacrifices.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the way man should really act is to follow the moral code, and then he has dignity, because he has self-direction. He is determined to follow the moral principles, so he has dignity.

Prabhupāda: The moral codes are there. If anyone follows actually, he has dignity.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man belongs to what he calls the "kingdom of ends," because he looks to the ideal, or the perfect. He sees everything in relation to the perfect end and guides his life accordingly. So the means and the end are both perfect, ideal.

Prabhupāda: And what is that end? That he does not describe.

Śyāmasundara: He calls the end the moral law, the moral imperative.

Prabhupāda: That moral law is… What is moral in one circumstance is immoral in another circumstance. That means again imperfectness of idea.

Śyāmasundara: He calls the end the golden rule, that one should act…

Prabhupāda: That is simply abstract ideas. He does not give any concrete example.

Śyāmasundara: He gives the example of breaking a promise.

Prabhupāda: Breaking a promise is sometime moral. Just like Kṛṣṇa broke His promise, Himself. Kṛṣṇa broke His promise. He promised that "In this fight, this war, I shall not take a weapon." But when Arjuna was jeopardized by the fighting of Bhīṣma, He immediately took some weapon and approached Bhīṣma, because Bhīṣma promised that either Kṛṣṇa has to break His promise or Arjuna will die, two things… "Tomorrow I shall fight in this way, then Arjuna will die, unless Kṛṣṇa takes special step." That means He has to break His promise. So he wanted to see that Kṛṣṇa breaks His promise to protect His devotee. That was his idea. So when He broke His promise, he gave up fighting. "That was my purpose, that You have to break your promise to protect your devotee."

Śyāmasundara: He says that a man should never become a mere object of utility. In other words, he should not lower his standard just because it is practical at the time.

Prabhupāda: More or less, he is a strict moralist. But that is not the highest stage. One has to transcend even this moral principle. That is perfection. Because this moral value is within this material world, moral values, morality, immorality are of this material world. Just like there are three qualities. Morality is on the platform of the modes of goodness. So from higher standard, here in the modes of goodness, suppose one is brāhmaṇa, perfect brāhmaṇa, but he is in the material world. Even though he has got some moral principles, still he is existing in the material world. But according to transcendental spiritual vision, the whole material world is condemned. It is like that if one is a first-class prisoner. Just like if a politician is in prison, he is given first-class treatment, he is given special bungalow, servants, many facilities, does it mean that he is not a criminal? As soon as one comes to the prison, he's a criminal. He may be a great politician or an ordinary pickpocket. A pickpocket is given third-class prisoner's life, and a politician, Gandhi or Nehru or someone else, big politicians, when they are imprisoned, they are given special treatment. But on account of his being within prison walls, he is condemned. Similarly, anyone who is in this material world, either with the brahminical qualifications or śūdra qualifications, he is a conditioned soul. Of course, so far conditioned life is concerned, there is value of morality and immorality. But the morality may help him to transcend, to come to the transcendental platform, but to come to the transcendental platform is not dependent on morality. It is independent of anything. Just like under the order of Kṛṣṇa, fighting by Arjuna, killing his kinsmen, that is above morality.

Śyāmasundara: It's like you say: morality may help him to transcend. He is beginning to perceive behind this moral law.

Prabhupāda: No. From this instance we find that Arjuna was trying to become moral, not killing his own men; but that did not help him. Rather, by directly abiding by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, he transcended morality. So morality does not always help.

Śyāmasundara: In this particular case of Kant, he begins to perceive that behind morality there is something higher. He says that even though a man is sinful…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly there is higher. That highness is within this material world. There are two stages, two platforms: transcendental platform and physical platform. That highness is physical. Just like Mahatma Gandhi. He was known as a very high-class man, but he was a materialist, that's all. By his pious activities he may be elevated materially. Just like if you act piously, giving charity, then next birth you get very nice opulent birth, you are born in a rich family, you get enough money. But that is not the solution of your conditional life. To take birth in this family does not mean he hasn't got to undergo the process of birth, the pains of birth, the pains of death. But real problem is that I want to stop these pains of birth, death, old age and disease. Hari me nana mitinatante (?). Without love of Kṛṣṇa, nobody can escape these material conditions of life.

Śyāmasundara: So Kant is beginning to realize that, by observing that if a man does sin, nevertheless, the fact that the moral law is present somewhere in his personality, that he is able to understand it if he is rightly trained, that this in itself must be regarded as holy. This propensity to understand the moral principles is an inborn holy trait that everyone has. And he says that this self-determination is the indispensable condition of all morality, that in order to be moral one must be self-determined.

Prabhupāda: That point we have already discussed, that one should be self-determined. But sometimes it is not possible to become self-determined. So first of all he does not know what is the aim of life. Suppose one becomes moral or becomes immoral. So what is the difference? I say that it is very easy for me to earn my livelihood by becoming immoral. Why shall I become moral? Then should he be condemned? If he is condemned, why is he condemned?

Śyāmasundara: Because he is not realizing the real nature of man, which is to be dignified and moral.

Prabhupāda: But then he must say what is the real nature of man.

Śyāmasundara: He comes to that. He finds out what is the nature of men through his investigation of morals. He later comes to that point of understanding what is the purpose of man.

Prabhupāda: What does he say is the purpose, ultimate goal of life?

Śyāmasundara: The ultimate goal of life is to attain its own perfection, and to attain…

Prabhupāda: But he does not describe what is perfection.

Śyāmasundara: Perfection is happiness combined with virtue.

Prabhupāda: Happiness everyone thinks. Even a drunkard, he is feeling happiness. Is that happiness? The hog, by eating stool, is feeling happiness. Is that happiness?

Śyāmasundara: But it is not combined with virtue.

Prabhupāda: Why not virtue? If you get happiness, that is virtuous. That means he has no standard knowledge. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. If a man is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualities. He may be a great philosopher, scientist, but he is a nonsense. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā, mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. By his mental speculation he is coming again and again on this material platform, that's all. He has no idea what is happiness, what is goal of life, the aim of life. He has no such idea. Vague. So therefore imperfect knowledge. [break] (end)

Hegel.SYA

Hegel

Śyāmasundara: So today we're discussing the philosopher Hegel, a German philosopher. His basic method is that he wants to synthesize all opposites to arrive at the truth and by doing so his conclusion was that everything that exists is reason, whatever exists is reason, whatever is real is rational, whatever is rational is real.

Prabhupāda: So, that means he wants to arrive at the absolute, that there is no duality. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says that His mission is to protect the devotees, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. And killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa actually did it. Just like He killed the Pūtanā, the great giant Pūtanā. Superficially he killed, but she got salvation exactly like His mother. Kṛṣṇa gave Pūtanā a position like His mother Yaśodā. Then, what is the difference between loving Yaśodā and killing Pūtanā? Because He is absolute, whatever He does, it is good. God is good. So superficially you may see, "Now God is doing bad," but it is not bad, it is good. Therefore two opposing, viruddhatta samanvaya(?), the Sanskrit word is viruddhata samanvaya(?). Coinciding two opposing elements, and that He can do. Therefore if he comes to Kṛṣṇa, he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then his philosophical aim will be fulfilled.

Śyāmasundara: He saw that his predecessors had become increasingly abstract in their thinking, trying to find out what is the nature of substance, the essential substance, and they had reduced it to nothingness, practically.

Prabhupāda: Because they do not know, that is vairasana(?). Nirākāra, nirākāra, the Sanskrit word… When one cannot actually specify what is the nature of God, what is the form of God, and by thinking, speculative speculating, they cannot come to the right conclusion, so out of frustration they say, "No, there is no God."

Śyāmasundara: Just like to analyze an object they would divide it up into smaller and smaller parts until they came to nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That was their process.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct). The absolute cannot be divided into parts. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi, in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the material thing, if you want to cut into pieces, that is (indistinct), but a spiritual being, avyaya, inexhaustible, there is no possibility of dividing the spirit into pieces. The Māyāvāda theory is that the absolute is all-pervading. Then when the question of His form, that is their poor fund of knowledge. The absolute, keeping His form as He is, He can expand Himself. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad-avyakta mūrtinā [Bg. 9.4], "I am spread all over the creation, avyakta, My impersonal form." So God, or Kṛṣṇa, has two features, rather three features, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11], impersonal feature, localized feature and personal feature. So unless we come to understand this science, tattva, it is very difficult to come to the conclusion what is the right form of the absolute truth. So one who cannot go, one who is not so competent, with poor fund of knowledge, they come to the conclusion, nira, void, but actually it is not so.

Śyāmasundara: But he wanted to reverse this trend, from abstraction to concretion. He believed that every phenomenal object had its relationship with the whole and that the whole is reality. So in order to understand reality one had to examine every object and relate it to the whole, and to each other, then he would understand what is the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing. The whole is Kṛṣṇa. And just like, take this material example. The whole is sun. The sunshine expanding, that is also in relation with this whole, and similarly Kṛṣṇa is the whole and everything is relative to Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. We see everything related with Kṛṣṇa and because everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa that I do not give up anything. We try to utilize everything for service of Kṛṣṇa. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they, although they say everything is Brahman, they say this is non-Brahman. They say neti, neti, not this, not this. Just like Māyāvādīs, they also say Kṛṣṇa and māyā. This Kṛṣṇa worship is māyā. So we say there is nothing māyā, it is simply illusion; but they say also like that, one, but as soon as Kṛṣṇa actually comes they say Kṛṣṇa is māyā. So our philosophy is that everything is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. The energy and the energetic, they're one. So Nārada explains idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. The whole universe is bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, but ivetaraḥ, it appears like separate. So how it is not separate, that can be understood through this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise, ordinary man, they think Kṛṣṇa and non-Kṛṣṇa. Actually there is no non-Kṛṣṇa, that is illusion, everything is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: This was Hegel's idea, too. That everything together is the, as a whole is the truth or the of the spirit. The whole, the summation of everything is the spirit, nothing can be separated from the spiritual whole, everything is related to it. There is one important point that I'd like to clear up. There was one philosopher we discussed named Kant, before. He… It was his idea that the phenomenon are modes of expression of the spirit or the thing in itself, that the thing in itself expresses itself in an object.

Prabhupāda: That we say. Just like the sun is expressed by the sunshine, by the heat and light. We understand sun through all spreading heat and light. Similarly, we understand God, Kṛṣṇa, by His two energies. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, the material energy and the spiritual energy, two energies. The spiritual energy is described as superior energy, and material energy is described as inferior energy. Superior, inferior, that is in our consideration because we cannot understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has said. Otherwise there is only one energy, the superior spiritual energy. When the spiritual energy is covered by ignorance, then it is called material energy. Just like the sky, in the sky naturally it is clear but when there is cloud, we cannot see the sun. So sun is there. When we cannot see Kṛṣṇa, cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Otherwise there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: But there is a distinction between what Hegel is saying. Hegel is saying that the objects themselves are the spirit expressing itself whereas Kant says the spirit expresses itself through the object. There's a distinction being made between the spirit within the object expressing itself or the spirit as the object.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: What is the distinction?

Prabhupāda: Object as it is, it is spirit.

Śyāmasundara: It is spirit, as it is.

Prabhupāda: As it is. Because, just like sunshine. Sunshine is not sun, in one sense, but it is sun because in the sunshine there is heat and light and in the sun there is heat and light. So there is no difference. But still sunshine is not the sun. Therefore that is our philosophy, acintya bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.

Śyāmasundara: So in a sense this is spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is spirit actually. But because I have no sense of Kṛṣṇa, I am taking it as matter. Just like sometimes people criticize that "You are spiritualists, you hate materialism, why you are using this table, why you are using this typewriter, microphone." But our reply is that it is not matter, it is spirit. But when you use it for your sense gratification then it is material. Just like prasādam-the people will say "What is this nonsense, prasādam, we are taking also dahl, rice, capātī, how it becomes spiritual?" They can argue like that and sometimes they do that. But, they do not know that we are accepting this dahl, rice, capātī in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Actually it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They, you cannot produce dahl, rice, it is Kṛṣṇa's production; everything is Kṛṣṇa's production. But when you forget Kṛṣṇa, his relationship with Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Therefore you revive the relationship with Kṛṣṇa, you offer to Kṛṣṇa, then you understand Kṛṣṇa has eaten, now let us take. Therefore it is spiritual. The consciousness is spiritual.

Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe

yukta-vairāgyam ucyate.

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

phalgu-vairāgya kathyate

This is our philosophy, Rūpa Gosvāmī's philosophy. That hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ; everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa and those who are giving it up, "No, no it is matter, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, this is false," Rūpa Gosvāmī says, phalgu-vairāgya, that kind of renunciation is insufficient or, phalgu means false, false renunciation. So our renunciation means renounce things for sense gratification. That's all. (indistinct) we renounce anything for our sense gratification, but we accept everything for Kṛṣṇa's senses. But actually everything is spiritual. Just like if Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything material but they argue that you are offering material flower, material food, how will Kṛṣṇa accept? Therefore in essence it is not material, but because we have been habituated to accept them for our sense gratification, therefore it is material. This body… Just like this body, this body is material, everyone knows, but Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

As soon as one engages himself fully in devotional service, he immediately becomes spiritualized. How the spiritual quality is defined. Actually everything is spirit but it is covered. Just like gold, gold is covered by some muddy dirt. So if you cleanse it, the heart, then immediately spiritualized. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. So our process is-that we will stress also-cleansing process, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. I am now thinking (I am) American, Indian. You are thinking (you are) American. This is false. This is false but as soon as you come to consciousness, "No, I am not American, I am Kṛṣṇa's. I am Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel." Then you are spiritual. The same thing remains intact but as soon as you come to the consciousness that I am Kṛṣṇa's, then you are spiritual. What is that verse?

ātma-māyām ṛte rājan

parasyānubhavātmanaḥ

na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ

svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā

Ātma-māyām ṛte, it is a māyām ṛte. Māyā, this spiritual and material conception is māyā; except māyā there is nothing. Na ghaṭetārtha-sam… Otherwise, except māyā there is no such thing as material. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. It is just like the example in Bhagavad-gītā, nice example, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Just like I am dreaming so many things, I am dreaming; there is nothing such thing, still I am dreaming. I am feeling that I am fallen in a dark well and I am now suffocating. But actually there is no well, there is no suffocation, but I'm thinking because I've fallen or I am absorbed in dream, therefore all these conceptions, material conceptions, māyā, exactly like dreaming. Dreaming, this is the best example. When one dreams he factually suffers, he is put into some dark place and he is trying to get out, he cannot get out; there is no such dark place, he has not fallen, everything is (indistinct). He is suffering, he is suffering, he is crying, "Save me." So actually there is nothing material. But due to our dreaming that I am separate from Kṛṣṇa, "I'm Mr. American, I'm Mr. Indian, I'm Mr. This, I have got this duty, I have got that duty." All this māyā. You have no other duty than to serve Kṛṣṇa because you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. When that consciousness comes, then spiritual (indistinct). So you have to change the consciousness, that's all. (indistinct) Everything is spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: The Kant philosophy, and he took this idea from Plato, is that there is an ideal on which these temporary objects are representatives. For instance the idea of tableness is an abstract idea of perfection. It's represented before me in this table in a perverted form. This table represents the ideal, expresses the ideal, but it is not the ideal.

Prabhupāda: That we say, that this material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. This is reflection.

Śyāmasundara: They say an "image", everything is an image.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say that, that the same example, just like mirage. Mirage, there is no water but we see a vast sea, or big river is flowing. It is like that. Actually there is no river. No. This is going. This material world is like that. Just Śrīdhara Swami (said that) due to the factual position of the spiritual world, this illusory world appears to be true. Because there is real table.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The table concept.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because there is a real table, therefore I am considering this table. This is not table, this is wood. Somebody (may say), "This is not wood, but it was tree." All right, it is tree. Then what? It is not tree, it is seed. All right it is seed. No, it is not seed, it (indistinct) You see. Therefore it is perverted reflection. But there is a real table.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: There is a real table. Therefore the whole material creation is a perverted reflection and people are enamored by it. People are taking, "This is real table. This is real body. This is real happiness. This is real country. This is real society."

Śyāmasundara: This is what Hegel says, that this is the real table, that these are real objects. They are not images of the real but they are themselves real. There's where…

Prabhupāda: Then he has not the idea what is real. What do you mean by real?

Śyāmasundara: This is a real fact, this table, that this is spirit itself.

Prabhupāda: This is not real fact. This is imitation of the real table. It is fact to a person who has no knowledge of the real. Because it will not exist; that, our reality means which will exist. Otherwise it is not reality.

Śyāmasundara: So this may be real for some time and then…

Prabhupāda: It is temporary, temporary. It is not real. It is some temporary manifestation. The same example, like dreaming; dreaming is not real but temporary hallucination, that's all. You cannot say this "dream-real". This word is used, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Just like dream, it is very nice example. In dream everything appears to be real but it is not real, it is all false or temporary.

Śyāmasundara: So what I want to clarify is that you say…

Prabhupāda: He wants to say something.

Devotee: So actually we say there's a difference between reality and existing, even though it exists doesn't mean that it's real.

Prabhupāda: No, real means which exists eternally, that is real.

Devotee: But this exists only temporarily therefore it can't be classified as reality.

Prabhupāda: No, temporary, illusion we'll call it, reality means which exists eternally.

Devotee: That's the table on the spiritual platform.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There, Kṛṣṇa's abode, Kṛṣṇa's house, Kṛṣṇa's table, chair, furniture, they're all existing, ever-existing. Here they will not exist.

Śyāmasundara: So what is the distinction then between saying that spirit expresses itself in this object or the spirit is this object.

Prabhupāda: It is the expression of the energy of spirit. Everything is energy. Whatever is manifested, that is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Thus one energy manifestation is eternal and another energy manifestation is temporary. Which is temporary manifestation, that is material, and which is eternal manifestation, that is spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: So you could say both, you could say this is made of spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, originally it is made of spirit in this sense, that Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, and because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, so factually it is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Is this Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Or is Kṛṣṇa inside of this?

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa… He's(?) Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: This is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Kīrtanānanda: That which is giving rise to your perception of something material is actually spirit. The cause of what you are perceiving is spirit. But what you are perceiving is material.

Prabhupāda: Just like gold. Now you have made an earring. You say it is earring but, it may be earring but it is gold. Another example is, just like earth, earth. So you may take dirt and make a pot. So, and a doll, so many things, varieties. So we say it is doll, it is pot, it is this, it is that, but that is also earth. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And when it is broken, then it is again earth. In any condition it is earth.

Śyāmasundara: This pot and this brick, these are not images then, they are dirt, they are…

Prabhupāda: Then you make images. You make images, but when you make images, that is also earth. And when it is broken, that is also earth. And originally it is earth. Sarvam khalv idaṁ brahma. The three conditions: formless condition, form, and again, what it is called-merging. In three conditions it is earth. Aham evāsam evāgre, in the Bhāgavata Kṛṣṇa says, "I existed in the beginning of creation, I maintain the creation, and when the creation is broken, I exist."

Kīrtanānanda: But that's what the Māyāvādīs, they say that all of these forms, all form is māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say temporary, they say māyā.

Kīrtanānanda: So we also say that there is spiritual world full of form, and that is not-

Prabhupāda: Yes. That they do not know. That is their ignorance. We say wherefrom this form came, who gave this idea? The Vedānta says janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], the origin, from the original source it comes.

Kīrtanānanda: So the question is that, these forms that are here, are they actually eternal forms?

Prabhupāda: No. There is eternal…, this is not eternal. This is imitation. Perverted reflection. Reflection is not eternal. As soon as the condition is gone, there is no reflection.

Śyāmasundara: He says that they are not eternal but that the interaction of forms is an eternal process, that one form interacts with another…

Prabhupāda: They cannot explain it. The real is that this form is not eternal, but there is an eternal form. Just like the water. The form of the water on the desert, that is not fact, neither it is eternal. But there is eternal water. Otherwise wherefrom I get this idea here it is water. There is water. Now the presentation of water in the desert, that may be false. The Māyāvādī philosophers they do not know.

Śyāmasundara: But if the universe is rational and everything has a purpose, then this temporary form is also spiritual because it has some kind of purpose.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and that we are utilizing, everything, for the purpose, to make the best use of bad bargain.

Śyāmasundara: Even if someone can't see it, isn't there a purpose?

Prabhupāda: Now why not? Everything can be seen. Without seeing, what is the…? Everything can be seen.

Śyāmasundara: Even if someone, there is someone outside who cannot see it and they're utilizing a car or some object, isn't that object also…

Prabhupāda: Why he cannot see? He's seeing. Why does he say that he cannot see? He's seeing car.

Śyāmasundara: He's seeing it but perhaps he doesn't have the knowledge of what it is.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing. But he's seeing.

Śyāmasundara: So supposing he has no knowledge what it is, but isn't that object still a spiritual…

Prabhupāda: Then he has to take knowledge from person who knows.

Śyāmasundara: My question is, is that object still not spiritual?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows or does not know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Fact is fact.

Śyāmasundara: It's still spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Any object.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no see. He has not eyes to see it, that it is spiritual. He has no knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: So God's plan is unfolding itself everywhere, whether we understand it or not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's unfolding Himself. In Bhagavad-gītā He is sending His representative for unfolding.

Śyāmasundara: But even in the material world, in the way water erodes the land and trees grow and die, like that. Even though there is no knowledge of the spiritual content aren't they still spiritual? Going on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Like the same example, just like the earth when it comes to form it is also earth, and if there is no form, that is also earth. The earth remains always. Therefore spiritual energy. The sky is sky, but when there is cloud you'll say there's no big sky, it has become shortened or something like that; you cannot see. So cloud comes, and if there is no cloud, a sky, sky is always there.

Kīrtanānanda: It is both, isn't it Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is both material and spiritual. In essence it is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Essence is spiritual, that's it. But my imperfect vision makes it material.

Śyāmasundara: His idea, too, is that everything has a purpose, the whole universe is rational.

Prabhupāda: Certainly, certainly. Those who do not agree to accept this, just like so many rascal philosopher, there is no purpose of life, chance, they are rascals.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that to understand this reality or this truth is that one must examine all relationships of everything to each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are teaching. That original is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's expansion in energy is everything. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Just like heat and light; practically whole physical existence is heat and light. So heat and light, there is a fire wherefrom the heat and light comes. Similarly two energies, heat and light, the spiritual and material, they are emanating from the fire, Kṛṣṇa, and everything is made of heat and light, material (indistinct). So one who has got to see, one has got the eyes to see, that is the spiritual, he can see it. And when he hasn't got the eyes to see, he thinks material.

Śyāmasundara: Another way of looking is that Hegel considered that his predecessors were abstract philosophers, in other words they were isolating or severing from the whole into parts and that each part was static, not moving, but he saw that the truth is dynamic, it is always changing that these dynamic or that these isolated factors, he called them moments, momentums, that the total of moments was a moving force, that truth was actually dynamic and always changing, not static.

Prabhupāda: That we can understand from our personal self, that I am the soul, I am existing, and the bodily features changes, changes. Then it is changing, therefore it is material. And the spirit soul, it is existing in all conditions. That is the difference between spirit and matter. Hm.

Pradyumna: I wanted to ask you if the difference between the realisation of what… Everything is spiritual in that sense, but some things have more of an effect when we can see everything spiritually. What is the difference between the Ganges water and the ordinary water to someone who doesn't know that the Ganges water is spiritual? He doesn't have the realisation of it but still he gets spiritual benefit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one who does not know… Kṛṣṇa, He makes the difference between Ganges water and ordinary water. Because we are giving Ganges water important, but because it is coming out, flowing from the toe of Kṛṣṇa. So, as soon as the other water, it is offered to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, then how it becomes other water? It becomes Ganges water. The one who hasn't got to see, by touching to the lotus feet, this Ganges water will form. So any water when it is touched in Kṛṣṇa's feet, it is Ganges water.

Pradyumna: You write in Bhagavad-gītā that by using something in Kṛṣṇa's service it regains it's spiritual qualities.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. We have to see how you can becomes Ganges water. Why you give importance to the Ganges water? Because it is flowing from the toe of Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So anything comes in contact with Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, it will be Ganges water. Just like we are offering water, generally in India the Ganges water is used for worshiping. Then the worshiping of Kṛṣṇa will stop here in America? Does it mean so? We create Ganges water. As soon as it is touched with Kṛṣṇa, it is Ganges water.

Pradyumna: Yes, but someone, still who doesn't know, if he comes…

Prabhupāda: If someone does not know, one who does not know we are not talking about. This is the issue, that, why Ganges water is important. Because it is flowing from the toe of Kṛṣṇa. That means touching the toe of Kṛṣṇa makes Ganges water important. So, any water when it touches Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet it becomes Ganges water. This is logic. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Is it not?

Pradyumna: So you use something material in Kṛṣṇa consciousness…

Prabhupāda: If you have got material idea, then it will… [break] …so the fire makes it warm, warm, hot, red hot. When it is red hot, you cannot say it is iron, it is actually burning. You touch that red hot iron, you know it is iron rod but it is acting as fire. Similarly, when everything is acting for Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct). It has no other business. Just like in this dictaphone and all these things, you don't use for any other purpose, therefore it is spiritual. Prachurja(?), it is called prachurja. Prachurja means this original function is stopped. That gold. Just like this is wooden, but if you cover it with gold plate, everyone will say, "Golden." (indistinct). It is called prachurja. That means his wooden quality is covered. Therefore it is gold. And another is that when it is completely made of gold. So both ways it is gold. Both ways. Prachurja te and (indistinct), you transform gold into table or you cover it with only gold, they are both ways (indistinct) golden.

Kīrtanānanda: But they're not equal.

Prabhupāda: Well, why not equal? When it is serving the purpose of gold, why it is not equal? Why it is not equal? The gold table, whatever you can do with the gold table, you can do with this gold covered table, don't you think?

Kīrtanānanda: Then in function there is no difference between a tape recorder here used in the service of Kṛṣṇa and one existing in the spiritual sky.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Prachurja(?). Just like Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate, he is Brahman. Kṛṣṇa says. Why? Because he is…, that material function has stopped. You are all…, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate because your material function, that illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling, these things are stopped now. It is working in a different way, therefore it is spiritual.

Devotee: There's one verse in the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that explains that Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and Arjuna after Kṛṣṇa left the earth, returned to the spiritual sky in this same body. Does that indicate that their bodies were so spiritual from spiritual activities that they no longer were material bodies?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is possible. Now, let us talk of this philosopher. If you bring so many questions then we cannot do it.

Śyāmasundara: His idea was that the truth is in the sum of all moments, he called the organic theory of truth. The truth is not static or composed of isolated segments or parts, but it is the sum total of everything and it is constantly changing. So he says that these phenomena or facts of nature or these moments, they are progressing in an evolutionary process according to a course which is prescribed by a universal reason or the world spirit, weltgeist. That the world spirit is unfolding itself through phenomenal events.

Prabhupāda: That means… This is another nonsense proposition. According to the universal reason. So wherefrom the reason comes unless there is a person? That he does not know.

Śyāmasundara: He called it weltgeist, which means world spirit, world mind.

Prabhupāda: World spirit? That is a person. Unless you accept a person where there is question of reason? That he does not know. He's trying to explain (how could God be) but he has not clear knowledge. But as soon as speaks of reason there must be some person. That reason is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10], under my superintendence, under my guidance, direction. So direction means reason. So as soon as we speak of reason, you must accept the person, the supreme person who is giving this reason, who is directing all these things.

Śyāmasundara: So would you say that all world events, all phenomenon of the world are expressions of this world reason unfolding itself? There is a gradual development.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, there is a plan. After this, this should be done. After this, this should be done. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says superintendence, mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]? Just like you stand, you get your assistant, "Work like this. Do like this. Do like this. Do like that." So there is a plan, and there is direction. And there is reason also.

Śyāmasundara: What is the purpose of the plan? Is there any ultimate…?

Prabhupāda: Plan is… The whole plan is that living entities, they're part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other they wanted to enjoy this material world so Kṛṣṇa has given them chance (indistinct). Just like children, some small children, they want to play with something but the father guides so that they may not meet(?), fall down, so many things. "No, no, don't do this. You can play like this." So Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho, I am sitting in everyone's heart, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15], I am giving him intelligence, forgetfulness, everything. So he wanted to play, "All right, give to him the chance to play." But the whole plan is that "Let him play, and again come back." That is Vedic knowledge, that he wants to play, "All right, you play." But when he's fatigued by this nonsense play, he says, "Give up this. Come to me," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the plan.

Śyāmasundara: So the world is a school house or a school ground where we become educated…

Prabhupāda: Yes, a playground, it is called field. It is called field. Kṣetrajñā. Idaṁ śarīraṁ kaunteya kṣetram ity abhidhīyate [Bg. 13.2]. Idaṁ śarīram, this body is field, a small field. You wanted to play, "Alright take this field and work." That is going on. You are exhausted with this field, Kṛṣṇa gives another field, "Alright, take this." He gives another field, in this way changing different fields, fields of action, that's all. This body is field of action.

Śyāmasundara: It's not aimless, there's a gradual evolution…

Prabhupāda:. No, there is aim, that Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge also. The Vedas are there, Kṛṣṇa is coming, giving knowledge, that this kind of playing will not help you, therefore I, His request, you give up all this playing, come to Me. This is the point.

Śyāmasundara: So Hegel has a method for relating all phenomenal objects to this whole, or to the …

Prabhupāda: Hegel's method will not do because he has no idea. Hegel's method will not help.

Śyāmasundara: His method is called the dialectic.

Prabhupāda: Dialectic means speculation.

Śyāmasundara: Well, just like…

Prabhupāda: Logic, dialectic, this and that, this and that. What is the meaning of dialectic?

Śyāmasundara: Well, just like he divides it into three parts, the triad…

Prabhupāda: Well, let him do that, but dialectic, what does it mean?

Śyāmasundara: It means the synthesis of two opposing elements, like if you have…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, I understand.

Śyāmasundara: …the thesis, the antithesis and the synthesis.

Prabhupāda: Mm. That is means argument. You say something, I say something, and then you come to conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: Reconciliation.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Conclusion is there, what is called? Premises, premises, (indistinct) are called premises. Man is mortal. Mr. John is a man, therefore John is mortal.

Śyāmasundara: No, but that's the Aristotelian process, he rejects Aristotle's process.

Prabhupāda: He may reject Aristotle's process, that is…, the real thing is like that, that by your scanty reason, you come to this conclusion, in that (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: His process would be more like: man is immortal. The antithesis is that man is not immortal. So then the synthesis would be the combination, the resolution of those two.

Prabhupāda: What is that synthesis?

Śyāmasundara: The synthesis would be perhaps that man's body is mortal and he's immortal.

Prabhupāda: Perhaps. There is no certainty.

Śyāmasundara: Man's body is mortal and he's immortal.

Prabhupāda: What is this conclusion?

Śyāmasundara: I'm only using it as an example. You said that… You gave a proposal that man is immortal, that John is a man, therefore John is immortal. That's Aristotelian logic, Aristotle's logic.

Prabhupāda: That means his business is to defeat Aristotle's philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that that kind of reasoning is static, that it…

Prabhupāda: That means he… All right, there are two processes. One is inductive and one is deductive. This is deductive process.

Śyāmasundara: It's a syllogism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: It deals with the "isness" of something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And there is another process, inductive. Now let us see whether man is mortal or immortal. So go and study. So there are two processes. We say in our Sanskrit language, avaroha panthā, āroha panthā, knowledge coming from up, and knowledge for trying to go up. Ascending process and descending process. So we say that descending process is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Actually the example you brought out is very good because he says the essential dialectic of all is just this: there is a thesis of being, and an antithesis of nothing. So that, you said man is immortal, that is…

Prabhupāda: Being.

Śyāmasundara: That is being. So the antithesis of that is that man is mortal, or nothing; so how to reconcile those two is…

Prabhupāda: The reconcile is the body is nothing and the spirit is something. This is synthesis. This is our proposal. The body is nothing, false, but I am real. But those who have no knowledge, they are taking one side. But we are taking two sides: this body is there, this is false, but it is temporary. Although I say I'm not this body, if somebody knocks me I feel pain. So this is temporary. Mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. Due to this body, I am feeling pains and pleasures. So the Buddha philosophy is you make this body nil, then there is no pains and pleasures. But that is imperfect. Because I am there, I will accept another body. So that, death does not mean liberation. Death does not mean liberation. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. You have to accept another body. Liberation means when you are no more in this material world, you go back to spiritual world, that is liberation.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that this constant struggle between being and non-being is what makes the world go round.

Prabhupāda: That is also our proposition. That the spirit: yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. Therefore we are talking of two energies, the superior energy and the inferior energy.

Śyāmasundara: What is the synthesis?

Prabhupāda: The synthesis is that the superior energy, because it has accepted this material energy, therefore the material world's energy is working. Because I have entered into this body, therefore the body's material, it has no movement, but because I am within this body, it is moving. As soon as I shall go away, then this body is a lump of matter.

Śyāmasundara: He says this dialectic, basic dialectic between being and nothing is the basis of becoming, that because these two things are always conflicting, we are always becoming.

Prabhupāda: Becoming, that's… Therefore, the question becoming means I am now in this awkward position, that I am eternal and immortal but I have been entrapped by something which is mortal, therefore I am changing my position. So when I shall stop this taking of different position, I shall remain in my own being, that is the (synthesis).

Śyāmasundara: The previous example that you gave, that John is a man, man is immortal…

Prabhupāda: That is body, that is body, superficial.

Śyāmasundara: He says that that is a static analysis. That only deals with what is…

Prabhupāda: No, that is, that is static means those who are seeing simply the body. No introspection. They're simply, exoteric, no? Exoteric, what is called? Superficial, that is superficial.

Śyāmasundara: Exoteric.

Prabhupāda: So, but Kṛṣṇa says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Although the body is not mortal, still the proprietor of the body is immortal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20].

Śyāmasundara: So that's a combination of thesis and antithesis into synthesis.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So when we perfectly come to that position then you become synthesis.

Śyāmasundara: That's what Hegel is trying to find out, that ultimate synthesis.

Prabhupāda: He has to find out that he has no knowledge to find out; he has to take knowledge from us. We can help him.

Śyāmasundara: But anyway the basic idea is that every fact can only be understood by relating it to its opposite.

Prabhupāda: That is in the relative world because here everything is relative. We cannot understand what is father unless he has got a son, and he cannot understand a son unless he has got a father. So similarly this world is like that. You cannot understand what is white unless there is black. And you cannot understand black unless there is white. So this is relative world, this is not absolute world. In the absolute world the black, white, everything is one.

Śyāmasundara: Well he says you can find out that absolute world by tracing out all of these black-white relationships in the material world. Eventually you come to the point of understanding the absolute.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Bhagavad-gītā says: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births when actually one comes to the understanding of the Absolute, he surrenders unto Me because I am the Absolute. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching to approach the Absolute. That is our…

Śyāmasundara: He says that for instance by relating one idea to its opposite that we discover a different truth about each of them which transcends their separate truths.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is just like this Bhagavad-gītā says, that dehino 'smin… It says that this dehi, the soul which is within the body, that is immortal and this body is mortal. Two things are there.

Śyāmasundara: Opposites.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So the synthesis transcends their separate beings.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: The synthesis transcends their separate beings.

Prabhupāda: Separate means mortal and immortal.

Śyāmasundara: The combination is higher than both of them.

Prabhupāda: Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam.

Śyāmasundara: Then what is the synthesis?

Prabhupāda: Synthesis is to get out, the soul, from this awkward position of matter.

Śyāmasundara: Is that a higher understanding than understanding the soul by itself?

Prabhupāda: Yes, when soul is liberated, that is higher understanding. The soul should be liberated. He is in awkward position within this material world. He is in awkward position.

Śyāmasundara: Does the condition of being entrapped, enhance the understanding of liberation?

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless one understands that he is entrapped, there is no question of liberation. If he's in ignorance that this is the real life… Just like ordinary man, they think this is real life but we are giving education, "No, this is not real life. The real life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Śyāmasundara: Does someone who has been in prison and then he becomes free, does he appreciate his freedom more than someone who has always been free?

Prabhupāda: So, that's very easy to understand. You can apply the same thing in your life. That is not very difficult. Everyone can understand.

Śyāmasundara: So to enhance the understanding of freedom is it, if someone…

Prabhupāda: You come to the platform of freedom.

Śyāmasundara: But say one has always been free. His understanding…

Prabhupāda: No, why? So long as we are entrapped by this material body you are not free.

Śyāmasundara: No but for instance, just an example, there is someone who has always been free in the spiritual world and he comes into the material world…

Prabhupāda: Yes. He comes for a mission, just like Kṛṣṇa comes. He is not born. He is not born like a materialist. Similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee also comes, he is also not born. They come with a mission.

Śyāmasundara: I mean if someone is in the spiritual world, he falls down into the material world…

Prabhupāda: Falls down is different.

Śyāmasundara: …yes, and then he becomes again released…

Prabhupāda: Again he is free.

Śyāmasundara: Is his understanding after release higher than the previous?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Because he has learned something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Learned something, has become free; just like Nārada is giving history of his past life to Vyāsadeva. You have not read it, conversation between Nārada and Vyāsadeva? He knows perfectly well that I was a maidservant's son and in this way I have become free. That is freedom. Anyone knows. As soon as he comes to spiritual consciousness, he knows, "Oh, I was this in abominable condition, now I am decent(?) position. (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So it's in the… Is it good if someone comes to the material world and then they leave? I mean is the fact that they should come here…

Prabhupāda: It is not good. Then where is the question of taking him back to Godhead? It is not good. But if someone falls down somehow or other… But not that those who are coming with a mission, they are fallen down. When the governor goes to the prison house to inspect, it does not mean he's also prisoner. If the prisoners think, "Oh, the governor has come here, therefore he's also one of us." That is not. Therefore it is forbidden, guruṣu nara-matir, you never should think of guru as ordinary man. Guruṣu nara-matir, vaiṣṇave jāti buddhiḥ, arcye śilā-dhīr, if you think that is stone, "Ah, we are worshiping stone," these are forbidden. Actually they are not. Arcye śilā-dhīr, guruṣu nara-mati, vaiṣṇave jāti buddhiḥ. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11], because he's coming just like ordinary man. Not ordinary man, as man, so people are thinking, "Ah, He's a maybe little powerful. That's all." (indistinct). That is ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: Hegel's idea is actually not too much different than ours because he says that…

Prabhupāda: It is very much different, (indistinct) of difference. He'll have to go through millions of births to come to our understanding.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. In one sense he believes that the absolute truth is always changed, is always changing and yet is also permanent.

Prabhupāda: Absolute truth, how can you change?

Śyāmasundara: But it is also permanent at the same time.

Prabhupāda: No, that means he does not know what is Absolute Truth. Absolute cannot be changed.

Śyāmasundara: Just like Kṛṣṇa is walking, moving, that means changing…

Prabhupāda: That does not means He is not Absolute Truth.

Śyāmasundara: At the same time it is permanent, eternal.

Prabhupāda: That we are. We, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we are moving in this material body, but we are permanent. That is (indistinct). But Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Then it will be avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11], a rascaldom.

Śyāmasundara: He says it appears that there is conflict between contradictory factors but…

Prabhupāda: But everything will be coincided in Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: The whole process is eternal and permanent.

Prabhupāda: Just like so many radius, and it, everything middle points. You expand, you go, long, long, long.

Śyāmasundara: Even when the wheel turns the center…

Prabhupāda: The spoke. Spoke, and what it is called? Hub. Hub.

Śyāmasundara: …remains constant. That's his whole idea of history.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhāgavata. Kṛṣṇa says, aham evāsam evāgre. All expansions take place but He remains the same.

Śyāmasundara: Does it, does the spirit, is it the divine idea being actualized by the evolution of history and social, biological and everything…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā, hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. Can you find out this verse, hetunānena, where is the Bhagavad-gītā?

Śyāmasundara: But if the truth is unfolding itself in history, in biology, in sociology…

Prabhupāda: Everything. Center is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So all events are leading toward what?

Prabhupāda: Then all, everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa and after some manifestation, temporary, again going to Kṛṣṇa. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19].

Śyāmasundara: So everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa and going toward Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Going to Kṛṣṇa. Going back. In the mean time there is some manifestation.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So the unfolding of history is simply a…

Prabhupāda: Repetition. That's all. History repeats.

Śyāmasundara: He also, that's his idea, history (indistinct).

Pradyumna: Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate.

Prabhupāda: Ah. What is the first line?

Pradyumna: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10].

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? (indistinct)

Pradyumna: Material nature is controlled by Me. Under My direction.

Kīrtanānanda: Material nature is working under My direction.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Carācaram?

Pradyumna: Moving and not moving.

Prabhupāda: Moving and not moving, they are not self-sufficient. They are under direction.

Śyāmasundara: He only sees the movement and not the mover.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore insufficient.

Pradyumna: It says, "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, producing all the moving and unmoving beings, and by its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."

Prabhupāda: Is there any explanation?

Śyāmasundara: So that's enough for today. Tomorrow we'll take (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: The conclusion is that Mr. Hegel is not in perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: No. At least he sees a purpose in the universe.

Prabhupāda: That's alright. He's trying to see in his own capacity; but he is not perfect.

Kīrtanānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break-after this Śyāmasundara is dictating a few extra notes:)

Śyāmasundara: In this regard, later Śrīla Prabhupāda said that a man who has fever and a man who has never had fever, they enjoy… When the man who has fever recovers he enjoys equally with the man who never had fever. Therefore someone who has fallen into the material world, if he is liberated, he enjoys equally with the man who has never fallen into the material world. Neither he enjoys more, for instance, that he has learned some lesson so therefore he enjoys more his freedom, nor does he enjoy less than the man who has never fallen. [break]

Prabhupāda: Well, everything is the expression of spirit.

Śyāmasundara: So everything is art?

Prabhupāda: Well, what is his definition of art?

Śyāmasundara: Art is the expression of the spirit in sensuous form.

Prabhupāda: That is there. We are worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, there is love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, but that is sensuous, sensual. The gopīs are coming to Kṛṣṇa, lusty. Kṛṣṇa is beautiful, they are attracted. So these are there: sensuous, beautiful, art.

Śyāmasundara: What about a tree? We say a tree is the artful display of absolute.

Prabhupāda: Yes, tree, tree is also art. Because in a place, if you find so many green trees to (indistinct) nice. And in a barren land, in a desert, you don't think nice. Therefore there is art.

Śyāmasundara: But the barren desert is not art?

Prabhupāda: That is also art in a different way.

Śyāmasundara: So everything is artful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So the second expression of the absolute mind, he calls religion. He says that "This is the absolute expressed as representations in our consciousness."

Prabhupāda: This is (indistinct) mean to accept God. Does he mean like that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, but he means it as the opposite of sensuous form but as something intangible, something you can only relate to…

Prabhupāda: No. Intangible it may be at the present moment, that is another thing. But religion means understanding of God. Otherwise there is no religion. What do you mean by religion? First of all, you must define.

Śyāmasundara: What he means by religion is that the objects of our religious consciousness are mere representations in your consciousness, nothing more, but they are not tangible, like…

Prabhupāda: So then he has got no clear definition of religion. We define religion, is to abide by the laws of God. That is religion. God says, "You do this." When you do it, that is religion.

Śyāmasundara: So you would say that the absolute expresses itself in the laws of God…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is religion. And should the absolute gives you direction, and if you follow that direction, then you are religious. You cannot create religion.

Śyāmasundara: That's a tangible…

Prabhupāda: That is tangible, that is tangible. That is every religion, actually. Just like in Christian religion, "Thou shall not kill." That is the order. So if you kill, then you are not religious. When you do not kill, then you are religious. So therefore it is very difficult to find out real Christian because everyone is killing, violating the law of God. In one sense there is no Christian.

Prabhupāda: And every religion means connection with God.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that the highest form that the Absolute manifests itself, the highest mode, is in philosophy. He says that this combines art and religion and it synthesizes them so it is highest, philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy means that there is some order of God. Just like God says "Thou shall not kill." Now if you want to kill, then you must present your philosophy why you are killing, why you are violating the order of God, or why you are accepting the order of God. This is philosophy, not dry speculation.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy is highest because it can…

Prabhupāda: It is highest. But now God says, "Thou shalt not kill." Then you stop killing. That's all right, be religious but did you understand?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, why I (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Why I shall not kill. That is philosophy. Jñāna, vijñānam(?). Just like devotee, he accept Kṛṣṇa or God, that's all right. He's also devotee but one understands actually what is Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is very dear devotee. Madhyama-adhikārī. He is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, the lowest stage of devotee. He's as good as the other devotees. He does not like to… Just like gopīs, they are not philosophers and they're, neither they knew that Kṛṣṇa is God, but they loved Kṛṣṇa, that is highest. Without any consideration. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Whatever you may be, I love you."

Śyāmasundara: Last time we discussed Hegel, you said, "Yes, philosophy is highest but even higher than philosophy is the practice of philosophy."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practice as I say, the gopīs. They're actually loving.

Śyāmasundara: They were practising the result of philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Enjoying the result of philosophy. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: I guess that's a good place to stop for today. We'll try to finish Hegel tomorrow. [break] First we'll be discussing the ethical, social and political philosophy of Hegel. He believed that one's basic right was to be a person and respect others as persons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the philosophy of killing animals?

Śyāmasundara: Well, animals are considered as things and persons have the dominion over things.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal philosophy. So the basic principle is this, one has right to be.

Śyāmasundara: One has the right to be a person.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And respect others as persons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So why do they not respect others' person. The animal is also person. What is this philosophy? That is the defect, that one is a rascal and he is taking the position of a philosopher. That is the defect. He's a rascal number one. He does not respect others' individuality, and he philosophizes that ones individuality should be observed.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are three basic rights. The first is property rights; the second is the right of contract; the third right is the right of redress of wrongs; in the sense that crimes should be punished.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not crime to kill an animal? The animal has no right to live independently?

Śyāmasundara: They say that the standard of what is right is the universal or the rational will…

Prabhupāda: Is that rational, that another living entity like me should be killed for my benefit, for satisfying my tongue?

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that the animal is not in the same category as myself because it has no…

Prabhupāda: So that's alright; then might is right? Hitler is right? When Hitler, Hitler kills the Jews, he's right? He thinks that they are not in my category.

Śyāmasundara: The animal cannot understand philosophy.

Prabhupāda: What does he understand of philosophy? He is mad; he is less than an animal. He does not understand philosophy. He does not know that the animal has also a soul, the animal has also life. Then he should be killed first.

Śyāmasundara: He said that one standard whether something is right or wrong is that if it is self-contradictory, if somebody's action is self-contradictory.

Prabhupāda: He is actually self-contradictory. He is going to give right to others that he does not want to give the same right to the animals. That is self-contradictory.

Śyāmasundara: He uses the example of someone who doesn't want anyone to steal something from him but he steals something from others.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And that is self-contradictory.

Prabhupāda: Yes, self-contradictory action is here, that I don't want to be killed but I kill another animal. This is self-contradictory. Supporting by some nonsense philosophy. I don't want to be killed but I kill other, this is self-contradictory.

Śyāmasundara: He would say a self-contradictory act is irrational.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Is not acting according to the rational will.

Prabhupāda: He is irrational and he is taking the position of a philosopher.

Śyāmasundara: Another one of his ideas is that conflict creates progress. So that a man kills the animal and progresses.

Prabhupāda: Then I kill him and make progress?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, that is the law of nature.

Prabhupāda: Then kill him and make progress?

Śyāmasundara: He says that acting in accordance with a conscience is the right type of activity.

Prabhupāda: The conscience, the so-called conscience is created. You go on killing, your conscience will be killing conscience, "It is all right." The thief becomes accustomed to steal, the conscience will say, "Yes, I must steal. It is my right." So you can create your conscience in that way. By association, by misguiding, they also create their conscience. Just like the Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill," but they are killing, creating a conscience, "Yes, killing is all right." In the religion it is forbidden, "Thou shalt not kill," but they are creating another conscience, "It is right." The conscience is created by association. By good association, conscience is the good conscience and by bad association, a bad conscience is created. So there is no such standard as conscience. Conscience means discriminating power.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is an absolute conscience, which means pure rationality. Whatever is purely rational is conscience.

Prabhupāda: Pure rationality is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is purest. Unless one comes to that standard, the so-called conscience, so-called philosophy is of no value.

Śyāmasundara: He says that punishment for crime is justified because it vindicates justice and restores rights.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore when one is killing an animal, he should be prepared for being killed. That will be justice. That is Manu's… Manu-saṁhitā says that when a man, murderer is hanged, that is complete justice, complete justice. That is to save him, because without being hanged in this life, he if he escapes justice, then he will have to suffer next life very severely. So to save him from so many troubles in the next life, if he is killed, I mean to say, hanged, in this life, then he is saved. Therefore the king who is hanging him is doing him justice. Life for life. If this is the justice, then why one should not be prepared of being killed because he is killing an animal? That is justice. That is Vedic philosophy. In Vedic philosophy, when an animal is killed, it is said that "You are animal, you are being sacrificed before goddess Kālī, so you get next chance to become a human being." That means he is given a lift from the evolutionary process to come to the human being because he is giving his life innocent, and one man wants to kill him, he will be killed. So because you are being killed before the deity, you get next chance human being and you have got the right to kill him. This is kālī-da, mantra. So any sane man will understand that "I am going to be killed by him so why shall I take the risk."

Śyāmasundara: I observe in nature that everything is killing something else for eating so it seems only rational that I should be able to eat animals.

Prabhupāda: Well, that also accepted in the Vedic philosophy, jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. One life is, one living being is food for another living being. But that does not mean that you shall kill your son and eat, and it will be supported by the society. That is discrimination, that is conscience. You can say that "I must eat some, another living entity. That is by nature's law. So I produce my children and I kill them and I eat them so that the population problem will be solved." You can say that. Will you be accepted? So therefore there must be discrimination. That you have to eat another living being, that is nature's law, but if you eat fruit, you don't kill the tree. You take the fruit. If you eat vegetables, you take, still it is growing, and that is a factually not killing. But if you eat animals, you are killing. Actually he is being dead. So things should be done intelligently so that… The word is to make the best use of a bad bargain. So our philosophy is that although you can take that, although it is not killing, it is taking fruits, flowers and vegetables, it is taking from him, it is not killing, and we are offering to Kṛṣṇa and so if there is any responsibility, it is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. We take the prasāda. Therefore we have no such responsibility and that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhuñjate te tv agham pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. Anyone who is cooking for himself, he is taking all responsibility for sinful activity even if he is a vegetarian, it doesn't matter. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. But if he takes the remnants of yajña-we are offering Kṛṣṇa daily-this is performing yajña. So we are taking the remnants of yajña. This is our philosophy. We are not taking directly. If I take directly, either a vegetarian or non-vegetarian, then I become responsible. Sinful. This is our philosophy. The law is there, but we have to tackle things very intelligently.

Śyāmasundara: So far the social ethics are concerned, he says that these begin with the family, then they go to the society or community, and then finally the state. He says that the family is the single entity and is the thesis. The individual finds his real nature only in the presence of others.

Prabhupāda: What about the family of the animals? They have got family. What does he say? The tiger has got family-he has got his wife, cats.

Śyāmasundara: When man finds himself in the presence of his family members he is able to understand himself by relating with others. So…

Prabhupāda: Relations with others, just like you are a family man, you don't encroach upon other families, this is society law. So the animals, they have got their family. Family, what do you mean by family, husband, wife, also two children, that is family. So the animals, they have got. So why you encroach upon the animal family? What is his answer?

Śyāmasundara: Families, when they relate together in communities, are related by certain laws or rights, that one voluntarily abstains from killing and stealing from other families so that no one will do the same to him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So but…

Prabhupāda: This is not applicable to the animal family?

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. (chuckles) What kind of philosopher he is? Our, Lord Buddha preached that if you feel pain when somebody pinches you, you should not pinch (them). He does not say that you should not pinch a human being. Therefore his dharma is ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. This is philosophy, something. What is this philosophy? Nonsense philosophy. That you protect your family but you eat the animal family. This Lord Buddha's philosophy has got meaning, but where is the meaning of this philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he doesn't consider the animal kingdom at all.

Prabhupāda: And he is a rascal. He is a rascal. A philosopher must be all-pervading(?). This is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes, he purports to cover everything. He says that his philosophy is complete, that it covers everything.

Prabhupāda: Then complete. (indistinct) complete.

Śyāmasundara: He says that one understands himself the more he relates to others, so eventually as he relates to the whole universe, then he understands himself perfectly.

Prabhupāda: Universe means his brother. And white men. That's all. (laughter) That is his universe. There is a Bengali verse, (Bengali), "My elder brother is good man, I am good man. All bad men (?). This philosophy. (Bengali-repeats saying).

Śyāmasundara: He gets as far as the state, he says that one relates with all of the citizens in the state but it is nearly impossible to relate with the citizens of another state. Therefore disputes must be settled by war between states. So he clarifies war as a means of progressing.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. War also, we, Vedic philosophy, we say, dharma-yuddha. Just like Arjuna was encouraged, dharma-yuddha. So everything has got his use. War has got also use, you(?). But that is progress?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, progress comes about through conflict of opposites. So that as states fight each other, the one that comes out victorious is the most progressive, advanced state.

Prabhupāda: When the war should be declared? Is there any philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't believe in peace; he says that peace is a dream.

Prabhupāda: Peace cannot be possible within this material world, especially without God consciousness, there cannot be any peace. That is a fact.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the state, I will just read a segment of what he says about the state: "The state is the realization of the ethical idea. The true state is the ethical whole and the realization of freedom. The state is the march of God through the world.

Prabhupāda: March of?

Śyāmasundara: God.

Prabhupāda: God.

Śyāmasundara: Through the world. The state is an organism. The state is real and its reality consists of the interests of the whole being realized in particular ends. The state is the world which the spirit has made for itself. One often speaks of the wisdom of God in nature, but one must not believe that the physical world of nature is higher than the world of spirit. Just as spirit is superior to nature, so the state is superior to the physical life. We must therefore worship the state as the manifestation of the divine on earth.

Prabhupāda: That is very nice idea. We agree to that. Therefore we have to see what is the duty of the state. It is accepted that the state is the representative of God. Therefore the state's first business is to make citizens God-conscious. That is the state's first business. Any state who is neglecting this duty, he immediately becomes unqualified to hold the state office, either he may be president or the king. Because if it is admitted, the king… We say that the king's name is naradeva, God in human form, and king is offered that respect. There are… King is respected, why? Because he is to be considered God's representative. So therefore, as God's representative… Just like we are working as God's representative. We present ourselves as God's representative, Kṛṣṇa's representative, then what is our duty? What is our business? What we are doing? We are trying to lead others to God consciousness. That is the proof that I am God's representative. I am not teaching them anything else. I am teaching everything, that is duty, but this is my prime duty. Similarly, if the state or the state executive head, the president or the king is taken, accepted as God's representative, his first and foremost duty is to train the citizens to become God conscious. If he's lacking in that duty, he's not fit to become executive head, king of the… What does he say about that?

Śyāmasundara: He also agrees that the monarchy, constitutional monarchy is recommended to head the state.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And that he fulfills the universal will, he's simply the executor of the world's spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That's nice. That is the system, Vedic system. A king must educate.

Śyāmasundara: But because he was so vague, this left room for someone like Hitler to come in and use this philosophy…

Prabhupāda: Well, Hitler came not as a king, he came as a usurper. He's not king. That is going on that any rascal, somehow or other he gets power, he becomes the head. But he has no training how to become actually the protector of the citizens. Therefore after the whole world is in trouble. He whimsically declares war and involve all the citizens, implicate. Therefore this support to monarchy is better in this sense that a person, by saint to saint, or by disciplic succession, or hereditary succession, he can be trained and if one man is trained nicely, he can govern over hundreds and thousands inhabitants(?) very nicely.

Śyāmasundara: He says that in a well-ordered monarchy, the law alone has objective power to which the monarch has got to affix the subjective "I will". In other words the law alone rules, the king is simply the order-supplier for the law.

Prabhupāda: That is now, democracy, constitutional king. He is simply show-bottle. But if the king has got complete power and if he is trained, he is God conscious king, rājarṣi… Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ, the Bhagavad-gītā, the Fourth Chapter it is said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. The saintly king understood it. Not ordinary man. Therefore a king, monarch is supposed to be saintly. He must understand the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā and he should introduce educational system so that people may understand Bhagavad-gītā, or the science of God. That is the first duty of the state, of the king. And in another place the Bhāgavata says that one should not become father, one should not become the head of the state, one should not become guru, if he cannot save persons from the imminent danger of death. So we are, we are now in entanglement, repeated birth and death, it is the state duty to stop the citizens' repeated birth and death.

Śyāmasundara: He says it is the purpose of the state and king to apply the moral law.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the duty of the king, that is the king but the modern democracy state, they're simply concerned with the tax. That's all. But in the śāstra it is said that if you keep the citizens blind in the matter of morality and immorality and levy tax only, you will be satisfied with tax, then you will also go to ruin and they also go to ruin.

Śyāmasundara: Ruin.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ruination. Yes. Because he is taking all the sins. Tax means it is sinfully earned, and he's taking the money.

Śyāmasundara: So he gets it worse than anyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll be the worst sufferer, in this life and next life. These things I have discussed in Mahārāja Prthu's. You cannot, if you keep the, just like I am accepting disciples so I am taking responsibility of the sinful reactions. So similarly a king levying taxes, that means that he will take the share, the sinful or pious life of the citizens. Therefore if he keeps the citizens pious life, then he will be profited and citizens will be profited. Otherwise he will go to hell and the citizens will go to hell. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā. One blind man leading another blind man. So this is nice philosophy, that this is not the right philosophy, that the state head, the president or the king or whatever his name is, he is the representative of God. Therefore his duty is to train the citizens to become God conscious, pious, without any sinful life. But these big, big state head, just like in our country, Dr. Radhakrishnan is supposed to be a very great philosopher, and what he was doing? He was sanctioning to keep slaughterhouse. So he is philosopher and he had no sense that "I am the state head. I am sanctioning slaughterhouse. And I am passing as a philosopher." And now he is suffering, you have seen?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You see. He is lost, he is a dead man, living dead man. He cannot (indistinct).(laughter) He's finished. This philosopher for money's sake, he occupied the presidential post and maintained slaughterhouse. He is a philosopher.

Śyāmasundara: So he got the reaction.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his opportunity, he's finishing his sinful life in this life.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, you said, that's right, you said it was good for him that he was suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good for him. Because he is fortunate that his sinful reactions are being finished in this life. Otherwise he would have to drag it, he would have to continue, and he might have been a dog or cat, like that. So it is good for him. I said that. It is good for him.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we rise up to the level of the state but then each state is independent and not subordinate to other states.

Prabhupāda: Independent, no. Independ…, that is also another contradictory philosophy. If the state is representative of God, then how he's independent? That is less intelligent. He's speaking contradiction. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that no state is subordinate to any other state.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. If you all, my disciples, you are working under my instruction, so there is cooperation but not that other's order is obligatory to me. Similarly, one state is representative of God, another (is) representative of God, so they are not independent, dependent. That can be applied any field. Citizen, everyone is independent but everyone is dependent on the state laws. Similarly every state may be independent in their individual capacity, but he is dependent on God's order. That is the position. That is the perfection.

Śyāmasundara: But whenever there are disputes arising between states, then there must be war.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is natural. Just like in our ordinary lives, citizens, they disagree. They go to the court.

Śyāmasundara: But here he says there's no higher body between two, jurisdiction between states, that it can only be settled by war. There's no court or higher authority for judging between states.

Prabhupāda: There is higher body if there is religion, if there is philosophy, if there is learned section, brāhmaṇas, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. There is higher authority.

Śyāmasundara: He says there's no potent world authority.

Prabhupāda: No, you have killed all these things, but the system is there. Therefore the brahminical culture is above the kṣatriya culture. Therefore this division must be there; brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The administrators, the kings, they are kṣatriyas, but above them the brāhmaṇas are there. But because there is no brahminical class-they have all killed them-therefore he says there is no authority.

Śyāmasundara: Just like between presidents, Rāma's kingdom and Rāvaṇa's kingdom, there was no judge to settle the argument, there must have been war.

Prabhupāda: No, the judge, judge was Rāmacandra Himself. He is God.

Śyāmasundara: But there was war to settle it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So Hegel glorifies this war, he says, "There is an ethical element in war."

Prabhupāda: No, war, we also say dharma-yuddha, dharma-yuddha. Just like battle of Kurukṣetra is concluded by Sañjaya that, what is that? Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ [Bg. 18.78]. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ, he said to Dhṛtarāṣṭra, "My dear sir, I think the side on which Kṛṣṇa is there, he'll be victorious." So actually even there is war, the party who is God conscious, they"ll be victorious. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. What is that verse? Eh?

Śyāmasundara: What about between America and Germany, for instance? Neither one of them were God conscious.

Prabhupāda: Then it is demonic. This is not justified war, this is where two demons, we fight, just like cats and dogs fight. That's all. But there is, according to Vedic literature, yuddha, dharma-yuddha.

Kīrtanānanda: What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: Dharma-yuddha, on behalf of supreme God, that is called dharma-yuddha. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna, they are not for fighting, but Kṛṣṇa said, "Yes, I am on your side, you fight." That is dharma-yuddha. And therefore Arjuna became victorious because God was on his side. That is dharma-yuddha. So if you declare war on the principle of God consciousness, that war is justified and you will become victorious. This is the conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that our everyday life, everything is a state of war and that this is a purifying, this conflict is purifying, that it has an ethical element and he makes the statement, "By this war, ethical health in the nation is preserved and their finite aims uprooted. War protects the people from the corruption which an everlasting peace would bring upon it. He says that to be in a state of peace is corrupt, and when there's always a war that it purifies the country, makes it more ethical, moral.

Prabhupāda: Then he wants continuous war?

Śyāmasundara: Something like that; he glorifies war, says that it makes a nation healthy to have war.

Prabhupāda: Then Hitler was first-class man by his standard.

Śyāmasundara: He says that progress only comes through conflict.

Prabhupāda: That means, according to his philosophy, people should always engage themselves in war, because they will be progressing?

Śyāmasundara: He says that it makes for progress to be in conflict. Competition, conflict, this creates progress.

Prabhupāda: Competition, that is another thing. But if you say that war settles up morality, ethical law, then… Without any aim. We say yes, war may be there or must be there, but the party who has got Kṛṣṇa's support, they are victorious, they are right party. This is our philosophy. We don't say that war should be stopped, war must be there, because this world is material world, there must be war, opposite elements. Now, the party who has got Kṛṣṇa's support, that party… That is the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. We don't say stop war, but we say if you fight, fight on behalf of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So his statement that progress comes through conflict is true, but in the conflict you should take the right side.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real progress. Right side means on which side Kṛṣṇa is. That is the instruction on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra.

Kīrtanānanda: But what is it that we can make progress on? He is simply thinking in terms of material advancement.

Śyāmasundara: Ethical advancement, he says that there's an ethical element…

Prabhupāda: He has no ethical principle. He does not know what is ethics. Otherwise he would not have supported that animal killing. He does not know what is ethics. He speaks something (indistinct) only. That's all. There is no practical application.

Śyāmasundara: What about the statement that "Peace is stagnation"?

Prabhupāda: Well, nobody is in stagnation, everyone is working. Stagnation means, just like a stagnant water, it has no flow. That is stagnation. But who is, he is not, everyone is acting.

Śyāmasundara: So there is no peace anywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not stagnation. Just like we, we have taken to Kṛṣṇa, it is not stagnant. We was going on. We are sending preachers, so we are not stagnant. So the question of stagnation does not come anywhere.

Kīrtanānanda: In the Vedic culture, the thing that keeps it from becoming stagnant is the presence of the brāhmaṇa. The brāhmaṇa community, they give purpose so that all of the other orders, they can remain just as much involved as if they were involved in war because this kind of society that Hegel is describing where there is no brāhmaṇa, there is simply this materialism. So they require war or else they become stagnant. Our answer is that they require the brāhmaṇa community directions so that everyone can work with full energy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So would you say that we are in a state of peace or a state of war?

Prabhupāda: Real peace… That definition we don't accept, "Stagnation is peace." We don't accept that. Our peace is working for Kṛṣṇa. That is peace.

Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā mām.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

So our work is there. We are educating people that Kṛṣṇa is your friend. This is not stagnation, this is the real work, that we take Kṛṣṇa as the supreme enjoyer, so whatever enjoyable things are there, we are supplying to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, you take all nice foods. Kṛṣṇa you live nicely, you take all women, you enjoy rāsa-līlā, sixteen thousand wives. He is the supreme enjoyer, He should be given all enjoyment. That is our… [break]

Śyāmasundara: The material nature, māyā?

Prabhupāda: Well, we don't fight with māyā. Those who are under the clutches are being kicked by māyā, they are struggling. We have nothing to do. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Māyā does not disturb us, so where is the fight? (laughter) Those who are being kicked by māyā, they have got fight. Just like the police. Police is for chastisement, but he has nothing to do with honest men. Let there be police, what is the trouble. Those who are criminals, they have got fight with the police. But we are not criminals.

Śyāmasundara: Then he describes world history to be the supreme tribunal or the higher judge of events. He says that what actually happens to a state or a people represents the final judgment as to the worth of a national policy or a course of action, that the history will bear out…

Prabhupāda: Alright, the state is imperfect; then there is no such question.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the history will bear out whether a policy is good or bad. For instance the Roman Empire came, and then it fell. So their policy is…

Prabhupāda: So we say that any empire will come, and fail. Without studying history. Because godless empire will never exist.

Śyāmasundara: He says that each state represents some phase of the absolute truth, that it expresses itself in the temporal events or the march of time.

Prabhupāda: We accept that without historical reference, we say unless one state or king is representative of God, that is not state. That is a group, that is not state. Just like even in aboriginals, they have also group. They have also group. That is not state. I think there must be some distinction…

Devotee: Tribe.

Prabhupāda: Yes, tribe and state.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the dominant nation in any epoch represents the dominant phase of the absolute idea during that time. Just like now America is the dominant nation in the world so that the dominant phase of the truth is being expressed through America.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Mr. Nixon supported Pakistan. (laughter) Everyone knew, all other nations knew that this Pakistan is creating havoc, genocide, they're killing innocent men in Bangladesh, and Nixon, Mr. Nixon publicly supported. And still he is angry about India because India is the richest country. He has withdrawn all help. So he is supporter of mischievous activities.

Śyāmasundara: Just like before, the British were the dominant nation and then again some other country would be the dominant nation, he says that this dominant nation expresses at the time what the, the absolute truth expressing itself in time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the dominant nation is, it is connected with the absolute truth that up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, five thousand years ago, the king of Hastināpur, they were dominating the whole world. Because Mahārāja Parīkṣit, Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira were actually representing God, therefore their domination was possible. Now, that being lost, there are so many small states, they are not God conscious, therefore fighting each other, that's all, like cats and dogs. But it is a fact that the Vedic culture kings like Mahārāja Rāmacandra, Mahārāja Prthu, Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, and later on some other kings also, they were actually representative of God, so there was no trouble. One king was ruling all over the world.

Śyāmasundara: Is the fact that America is now the dominant nation also God's will?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I say, because some of the Americans are Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: So what is the meaning, then, that America is the dominant nation?

Prabhupāda: America is dominant now. Actually most of you don't support Mr. Nixon. But he is on the head. So how he has become head, that is mysterious. Because people, when you study the people, they do not support him. There are so many, I mean to say, procession against, protesting against Mr. Nixon's policy and so many things. But still he is on the head, of the executive power. So there is something mysterious. Actually, the present government does not represent the others. That is everywhere. So, how we can understand that this nation is good or bad by the state behavior. Just like we issued that statement that these Americans not… These Americans were following the Nixon philosophy. There was a cartoon, that in our temple nobody is coming.

Kīrtanānanda: Nobody is what?

Prabhupāda: Nobody is coming.

Devotee: India.

Prabhupāda: In India. Because there was a feeling against the Americans. People are going to the ambassadors and place, the consulate, they are protesting, the police was there, very good. Eh? Against, against killing, counter feelings against the Americans doing the work. So I issued one statement that these Americans, they are devotees, they have nothing to do with politics. So at the present moment (indistinct), actually what is the American nation, simply by seeing the state we cannot give our judgment that this is the American nation, because there are many who are not in agreement with the state power. But they are posing themselves, that we represent America.

Śyāmasundara: He says that it is God's will that a certain nation will be dominant at a certain time, so I'm just wondering what is the reason that God has made America dominant.

Prabhupāda: That is his philosophy. He says. God does not say. He has no connection with God that he can speak on behalf of God, "It is God's will, God's…" (indistinct), like this?

Śyāmasundara: No, he says that whatever is, is right, and that this good and this reason in its most concrete form is God. God governs the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That also we admit because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam, mama tejo 'ṁśa-sambhavam, whenever there is some extraordinary power, it should be understood that it is derived partially from God's power. That we accept. So the dominance of American nation is God's favor. We can accept that. Now, if you put on the head representative like Mr. Nixon or some other, then it will deteriorate. If you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness and if you make your president Kṛṣṇa conscious, then actually you will be God's empowered nation. Let the president become Kṛṣṇa conscious man. Why not? You are American, you can also capture the post. You can become senator, you can be congressman. So educate the American public (in) Kṛṣṇa consciousness, elect Kṛṣṇa conscious president and actually you will be God's favored nation is there. You have got the opportunity and the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is also in your hand, now it is up to you to utilize it and become actually the leaders of the world. That was my mission: "I shall go to America, and educate them, and they, if they follow, the whole world will follow." And that is coming to be true. You are all young men, it is in your hand. Now you make policy in that way. Just like the communists. A few communists, Stalin, Lenin, they formed a big communist party, now it is predominating all over the world. Similarly, you are so many nice, young, flowers, intelligent young Americans you have understood the philosophy, and now it is up to you to spread this "ism". You don't become stagnant-"Now I have understood Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I shall sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Śyāmasundara: Peace.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't want that. Go, spread, preach, and make your nation glorified.

Śyāmasundara: He discusses one more topic, aesthetics, or what is the idea of beauty. He says that beauty is the absolute idea shining through to the sense world, or the spirit shining through to the sense forms.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore our Kṛṣṇa is the most beautiful. That beauty. Because Kṛṣṇa is most beautiful. Just like I said the other day that the nice bird was chirping, I say Kṛṣṇa is speaking. So reservoir of all pleasure, all beauty. So beauty is appreciable because it is one of the qualifications of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So beauty in the material world is Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa…

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's perverted reflection. Just like now the sky is clear, now the sunshine is bright, but even if the sky is covered by clouds, you will understand it is daytime because the glaring, shining of the sun is still to be understood. Similarly, whatever little beauty we find in this material world, that is a perverted reflection of Kṛṣṇa's beauty.

Śyāmasundara: We still understand it's beauty, but not very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes, not very much.

Śyāmasundara: Just a few more minutes and then it's finished. He says that art is a combination of spiritual content and sensuous form, that this is really art, that the artist should try to form spiritual content with these material…

Prabhupāda: That we are doing, whenever we are painting picture, art, music, we are praising Kṛṣṇa with it. Our music, our painting, our anything, we center Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that of all arts, that music and poetry are the highest.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so therefore we write, Vyāsadeva has written so many nice poetries in praise of Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is writing, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. All sages, they write praise of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Poetry.

Prabhupāda: Yes, poetry. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Uttama-śloka, He is described by first-class poetry. And a devotee is supposed to be poet also, among the twenty-six qualification. So all of us writing, glorifying Kṛṣṇa. Poetry or prose doesn't matter. Anything sublime is called poetry, not that it has to be written in meter. Everything sublime is called poetry.

Śyāmasundara: Then actually he talks about the philosophy of religion. He says that the absolute manifests itself in representations. In other words pure thought is couched in imagery and pictorial contemplation, that this is religion. Religion is pure thought which we imagine in form. We put into form.

Prabhupāda: No, there… He has no knowledge of religion. Religion means imagining pure, not pure thought. Religion means the order coming from the most pure. That is religion. You, you cannot imagine. Your imagination… Imagination (indistinct) best thing. But if you receive the best thing directly from the most pure, that is religion. Just like we are receiving directly from the most pure Kṛṣṇa. He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. That is religion. That is religion, he is directly receiving the orders from the most pure, Kṛṣṇa. He is not imagining. It is not imagination.

Śyāmasundara: He says that religion unfolds in three phases. In the first phase, or natural religions, they worship objects of nature like the thunderbolt, trees. Then as men beome more advanced, they begin to think of God as localized, like the Jewish religion, perhaps God is somewhere, as one thing. Then highest religion, he says, is Christianity because it gives us a clear idea of God, His son, and the Holy Ghost. He says that Christian religion is the perfect religion.

Prabhupāda: Why perfect? God has only one son? Is that perfect? God is unlimited, and He is limited to one son? Why He should be limited to one son?

Śyāmasundara: He says that this son represents nature and the objective world, because it is God incarnate; we can see Him, we know what He looks like…

Prabhupāda: Then he believes in incarnation? So, when there is son incarnation and God incarnation, which is better? Incarnation, He incarnates as son and He incarnates Himself.

Śyāmasundara: He maintains that God is an absolute idea, that he is pure conception.

Kīrtanānanda: Impersonal.

Prabhupāda: That means he has no clear idea of God. If God has got a son, then the father must be a person. Where is a son who is born out of imperson father? Where is the evidence?

Śyāmasundara: An idea, born out of an idea.

Prabhupāda: Idea. This is nonsense. If son is a person, his father must be a person.

Śyāmasundara: He says that in philosophy we approach closest to the absolute or God, whereas art is the form of the absolute.

Prabhupāda: Then his statement that Christianity is perfect, that is refuted.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That stands refuted.

Devotee: As Hegel presents Christianity.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, is just like his philosophy of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. So he says, "Therefore it is perfect."

Prabhupāda: He may think it. Everyone thinks that way, (that) his philosophy is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that even higher than religion is philosophy because you can approach God through pure concept or thought, pure thought, and reach God.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā is combination of religion and philosophical thought.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy, knowledge of the absolute idea is unique because it is in and for itself, or is pure idea, that philosophy is pure idea.

Prabhupāda: That we say, that religion without philosophy is sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.

Śyāmasundara: But he wants to have philosophy without religion. He says that philosophy…

Prabhupāda: That is mental speculation. He says that above religion is philosophy. That means religion supported by philosophy is real religion. Religion supported by philosophy is real religion. Otherwise insufficient. It is same thing. That's all. Actually except Bhāgavata religion, all other religions in the world are sentiments. Therefore in Bhāgavata beginning is said, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitava, all cheating type of religion is kicked out from dharma. Projjhita, kicked out. Except Bhāgavata religion, any religion which is going on in the world, they're all cheating.

Śyāmasundara: The philosophy of Bhāgavata is not…

Prabhupāda: God-centered.

Śyāmasundara: But it's not purely conceptual, is it?

Prabhupāda: Well, it is religion in this sense that carrying out the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like law means the law given by the state. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. That is religion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy is higher than religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you apply your philosophy. Then why… Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You just surrender unto Me. This is religion. Now try to understand why Kṛṣṇa says that you surrender unto Me, and why we are obliged to surrender. That is philosophy, that is philosophy. And when your philosophy supports, "Yes, we have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then it is perfect, it is not sentiment. [break]

Śyāmasundara: So yesterday we were discussing Hegel. He says that the absolute idea or God assumes three forms. The first form is called the idea in itself, the second form is called the idea for itself, the third form is called the idea in and for itself.

Prabhupāda: Idea in?

Śyāmasundara: In and for itself.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Śyāmasundara: And these three things may also be called…

Prabhupāda: That means he is creating God. Is it not? God is an idea. So his philosophy is that you create by imagination something as God. Actually there is no God. Just like Māyāvādīs, they say, "God is imperson. God is dead." Like that. And you can create a God. Just like Vivekananda, that is their theory. Therefore they create Ramakrishna as God.

Śyāmasundara: He said that God is the idea behind all concrete objects. Whatever is concrete there is a superior idea.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Idea can be changed so God becomes a thing which is subjected to the whimsical change of rascals. That is his idea.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God is the sum total of all concrete phenomenon.

Prabhupāda: That's all right but that means he has no clear knowledge. That's all. So therefore we can say they are rascals. And one who does not know God, he is rascal. Following, that is our philosophy(?). But because knowledge means to understand God. The animals, they do not understand God. Therefore they are called animal. Similarly, any man, any so-called (indistinct) does not know God, he is animal. He may be nicely dressed, that is another thing, but factually he is an animal, because he does not know God. That is the position of animals. What is the difference between man and animal? That is the difference, the animal cannot know what is God, the man can know. That is fundamental. It may be… There are difference of animals but no animal is able to understand God. And here the difficulty is that one is in the animal's position, he does not know God but he takes the position of teacher. That is the difficulty of this modern civilization. The person in position of animal is trying to teach others. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānaḥ as Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "The blind man is trying to lead other blind men." That is the defect of the modern civilization. We, our Vedic civilization, not our (indistinct) everyone, we accept a teacher, Vyāsadeva, Kṛṣṇa. They must be beyond the, beyond suspicion. Just like there is an English proverb, "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Is it not? Is it an English proverb? "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." So anyone who is on the position of teacher, he must be above suspicion. That is our first acceptance of teacher. We don't accept any teacher who is under suspicion. How he can be teacher if he's under suspicion? Now they may question that if you are above suspicion. "No, I am not above suspicion, but I am carrying the message which is above suspicion. Therefore I am above suspicion." The peon delivering you four hundred dollars, he is not rich man but he is actually delivering four hundred dollars. That is our position. Therefore we say, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. I may be rascal, it doesn't matter, but because I am carrying the message which is not rascal, therefore I am fit. This is our… We don't say anything rascaldom because we don't say anything which is not spoken by Kṛṣṇa or by authorities like Vyāsadeva. That is our position. Don't teach anyone else, except what Kṛṣṇa teaches. Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." We say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Just like Śyāmasundara's daughter, she says, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" (indistinct) "No, I don't know." "Supreme Personality of Godhead." She may be child, but the message she is delivering is perfect. The message she is delivering, that is perfect. Is it not? She says, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Now the child may (not) be perfect, that's all right, but the message she is giving, it is perfect. So there is no suspicion about the message. That message is above suspicion. So our position is: you don't change it. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2], receive message by paramparā. (indistinct) is the same. Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." We say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." I may be rascal, that is (indistinct) but the message I am carrying is without (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: The idea in itself is that thesis, the idea for itself is the antithesis. Now the idea…

Prabhupāda: The first thing is that idea, anything… Idea is not God. God is substance.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Anything nonsense idea, that is not God. God has created you. You cannot create God. And they are creating God. Just like Vivekananda mission, yata mata tata patha. As many opinion you have got, you can have your religious way. Yata mata, this is their mission, yata mata tata patha, "Whatever you are thinking, all right." Ramakrishna, he wanted to realize God from any way. And later on he wanted to realize God by the Mohammedans' way and he asked the proprietor of the temple to allow him to take meat, cow's flesh. So when he asked, the proprietor said, "Please go out. Get out." Now don't real…, I don't want the (indistinct). This philosophy also you can realize God in any way, yata mata. Now he wanted to realize in the Mohammedan's way, therefore he thought it wise that he must eat cow's flesh. These things are there.

Śyāmasundara: If God is not an idea but He's substance, how do you mean that, substance? How do you define substance?

Prabhupāda: You define substance. What is your definition of substance?

Śyāmasundara: Substance is the…

Prabhupāda: Concrete.

Śyāmasundara: … the realization of the idea.

Prabhupāda: I know. Something concrete. (indistinct). Substance is concrete. The gold idea and… Just like you know gold, and you know a big mountain. So now you form an idea, the gold mountain. This is idea. But when you see actually gold mountain, that is substance. This is difference between idea and substance. But you have never seen gold mountain but you say gold mountain. You combine some idea. You are thinking, "There is gold. Now if I get the mountain, like gold." So that is idea. But when you actually find a (indistinct), "Here is a gold mountain." That is fact. That is substance.

Śyāmasundara: Hegel's idea is that there is idea, then there is substance but the synthesis is spirit. Spirit combines both idea and substance.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but spirit is, according to our philosophy, the spirit is realized in three phases, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The supreme spirit is realized in three phases. An example is given, just like you see from a distant place the mountain, you see just like a hazy cloud. You go forward, you will see something, substance, green, and if you enter it you'll see so many trees, so many animals. So you are seeing the same object but according to your understanding, somebody is saying, "Oh, it is a cloud." Somebody is saying, "It is some green (indistinct)," and somebody is saying, "No, it is very nice place." It is a question of where he is standing, to understand God. So those who are standing in distant place, for them imperson. Just like we are seeing the sunshine imperson, and the sun globe localized, and if you have got capacity to enter into the sun globe, you'll see sun god. Similarly, God is realized in three capacities, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Either impersonal Brahman, or localized Paramātmā, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But if you somehow or other approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is Kṛṣṇa. Then you understand the other two things. And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. "I am the resting place of brahmajyoti." Brahmā-saṁhitā says, yasya prabha [Bs. 5.40], this brahmajyoti, impersonal brahmajyoti is the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61], that is another feature of Kṛṣṇa. He is sitting in everyone's heart. Just like the sun is reflected in thousands and millions of (indistinct). There are no so many suns, there is only one sun. How you will (indistinct)? So God is one but according to realization, one who has seen the (indistinct), he says, "Oh, there are millions of suns." And one who has not seen the (indistinct), he has seen only sunshine, "Sun is impersonal." It is a question of (indistinct) person who is realizing. But actually God is a person, sat-cit-ānanda-vigraha. That is (indistinct). We have got clear conception of God, sat-cit-ānanda-vigraha, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that…

Prabhupāda: His idea, but we are talking of substance.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. First before, for instance we make a table, we have to have an idea about a table.

Prabhupāda: No, that makes… Anything, if you are trying to approach by your idea, that is not substance.

Śyāmasundara: No, he says first there is the idea of something, then the substance, but spirit is that which…

Prabhupāda: No, no, no that is, that is…

Śyāmasundara: …has both the idea and the substance.

Prabhupāda: When you think that first of all let us have an idea. That is not substance.

Śyāmasundara: No, so we, for instance the table. I want to build a table. So I have an idea this is what it's shaped like. Then I gather the substance together. There is a table.

Prabhupāda: Now, why idea? If you are going to make a table, you have seen table, that is not idea, that is substance. Why do you say idea? Nonsense, it is not idea.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose I've never seen a table?

Prabhupāda: But then you cannot say what is table. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: But I have an idea, I want to make something…

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is false. As soon as you speak of idea, that is nonsense. You cannot make an idea of God. That is nonsense. What do you think?

Devotee: (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: All ideas are coming from Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Idea is coming because there is substance.

Śyāmasundara: I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about the objects of the senses.

Prabhupāda: Anything, anything, you cannot make an idea of table. You are…

Śyāmasundara: I can make an idea…

Kīrtanānanda: First of all Hegel uses the word idea, he doesn't mean just like thinking, some mental image. He's using the term differently. I always thought.

Śyāmasundara: He's using it as a rational form which precedes the material form or physical form. Just like I can think in my mind that e equals mc squared…

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that you are speculating. We don't accept that.

Śyāmasundara: No, but I can put that into practical form.

Prabhupāda: No, practical form we can know. Just like we understand what is God, that Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1], Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is vigraha, He is a form. He is a form but what kind of form-sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. He is sat-cit-ānanda. Now this sat-cit-ānanda, we have no understanding what is sat-cit-ānanda, but you can understand what is sat-cit-ānanda. Sat means eternal. So you can compare that Kṛṣṇa has got a body which is sat, whereas I have got this body which is asat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's body is not like this body. This is philosophy. They are ānanda, blissful. Now if I compare myself whether my body is blissful, no, it is always painful. So therefore His body is not like this.

Śyāmasundara: So you are saying that the ideal also has substance.

Prabhupāda: Substance, everything substance.

Śyāmasundara: For instance the ideal table, the ideal table. I don't see any table that's ideal but I can imagine there's one ideal table…

Prabhupāda: No, no, if you do not know what is table, you cannot manufacture table. You have to ask what is table. You have to ask somebody that… You have got… Practically unless you see or know from some way or other how can you manufacture a table?

Śyāmasundara: Just like Albert Einstein, he thought about this theory…

Prabhupāda: Because he's Albert Einstein, he's not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: No, but he was able to conceptualize that the speed of light squared times the mass equals the energy of an object. And then he was able to experiment in the laboratory and actually find out that it was true. But no one told him that formula. He found it out through process of idealizing, ideas.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is, he is studying science. He is a scientist. You cannot say but he's scientist. He, just like the same you are seeing the mountain from a distance, you are seer. Now the more you make progress you see it is green, then more progress, "Oh, it is (indistinct)." The seer, because he is scientist, he is searching so he is making progress but all of a sudden a layman cannot see like that.

Śyāmasundara: No but doesn't he have an idea before he finds the substantial…

Prabhupāda: Then idea… Idea means, scientist means they see something, observation. That is called observation. So observation, in the beginning there may be hazy. Just like two scientists, Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose and Marconi were, both of them were trying to capture sound. This, I mean to say, radio. They are theorizing that sound can be captured.

Śyāmasundara: That's an idea.

Prabhupāda: Not idea. Somehow or other-they are both scientists-they thought it (that) the sound can be captured. So they were making research. Now, they said-Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, he found first, how sound can be captured but because he was Indian, the British government did not give him the credit. They gave it to Marconi and it was discovered (indistinct) Jagadish Chandra Bose. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose personally told. I was present in the meeting in my childhood. That is a fact. One Baptist Mission Church in College Square, I saw Sir Jagadish, he spoke there. Then you challenge that "Now I shall give something which no others, which is (indistinct)". So he gave that the trees have sense, sensitive (indistinct). They can feel when you cut. That machine (indistinct). In Calcutta I have seen Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose Institute, we have got in (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing Plato, Plato has this idea also that the ideal precedes the physical representation and you said yes, that the ideal was in spiritual realm, it exists in the spiritual realm. Because of that we are able to conceptualize some idea.

Prabhupāda: Not that that idea is like this. Just like we have found that in the spiritual world and this is perverted reflection so in the śāstra we hear, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu, the houses are made of touchstone. So we have never seen touchstone, neither you have seen a house made of touchstone. We have seen house made of bricks or wood. So this is, this may be an idea but that idea comes by hearing from authority. Not that we manufacture that spiritual world must be made up. Like this.

Śyāmasundara: So there is always some substance which forms the contents of the idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, idea means there is substance but I have not seen it. That is idea.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the spirit, the spirit is the one who both has ideas and puts them into practice.

Prabhupāda: We say spirit has got everything. Why this or that? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is coming from. Why this or that? There is no such discrimination.

Śyāmasundara: What about a notion or a concept? How does that come into being if it has never existed before?

Prabhupāda: Notion, notion is the same thing like that. You have got, you have seen gold and you have seen mountain so you can build a golden mountain. Although you have never seen what is golden mountain.

Kīrtanānanda: But if I have that idea of a golden mountain, that means that in the spiritual world that must exist?

Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Spiritual world means everything existing. Unless there is substance in the spiritual world there cannot be anything even(?). Because it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is (indistinct).

Kīrtanānanda: But I can form an idea that is not in the spiritual world. Am I understanding you?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: We're a reflection, just like (indistinct) there's no dogs in Vaikuṇṭha, but there's dogs here, the dog's mentality is here.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is called temporary. Dog is a spirit soul. The spirit soul is there. That's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: There's a, for instance in mathematics, advanced mathematics has to do with sets of formulas, equations, symbols which have no place in reality. They have no substance. They're merely ideas on paper or in my brain. What about these kind of ideas. They are, how to say, like the square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: Ad infinitum, ad infinitum, like that.

Śyāmasundara: Like the square root of minus one. There is no substantial reference for that idea but there is an equation: the square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: The ultimate understanding, if we have accept this formula janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], so everything is emanating from the substance, so without having a place of that idea in the substance, you cannot have… That is another thing (indistinct). Because you are also a product of that something. So whatever you are thinking, that must be there, in the original.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose I have an idea, tomorrow I want to go to Pittsburgh. So then I actualize my idea, tomorrow if I go to the airplane, airport, get a ticket…

Prabhupāda: But you have heard that Pittsburgh, there is a place, a substance, you may not have seen. So you are preparing to go to Pittsburgh means Pittsburgh is a fact. Not idea. You are not going to idea Pittsburgh, you are going to actual Pittsburgh. That you have known, therefore you are (indistinct). You might have not seen. Just like I came to New York. I never saw it. I got an idea, "It may be like this." But I was coming to actual fact.

Kīrtanānanda: Now I see your point.

Śyāmasundara: I see your point also but supposing then that I have an idea I'm going to a vacant place, a vacant land and build a house which has never existed before…

Prabhupāda: So you have seen other house, that you have got this idea.

Śyāmasundara: A new house.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, new house means you have seen other houses. Try to make a new idea. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: But originally, originally before there was ever any houses.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But you have seen another place, a house. (indistinct), we have seen, in that particular (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No, but millions of years ago before there was any house… Suppose I am the first man on the planet, there has never existed any other house, then I get an idea to build a house, does that idea precede the substance?

Prabhupāda: Yes, according to our philosophy, just like Brahmā. Brahmā, he created another universe in his previous birth, but in this birth he forgot. So therefore he underwent tapasya for one hundred years, is it not? It is stated. So it is called… Just like you know something, so you think (indistinct). This is like that.

Śyāmasundara: If I invent a new invention…

Prabhupāda: It is not invention. That I am seeking where I have kept a thing, that means it is there, I have not forgot.

Śyāmasundara: In other words it existed before.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like I invent the television set…

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot invent anything which is not in the substance.

Śyāmasundara: Even if I invent, for instance I invent the atomic bomb…

Prabhupāda: There is no question of inventing. The atomic bomb, what is that, it is brahmāstra, it is already made. You are not inventing.

Śyāmasundara: Where does the idea come from?

Prabhupāda: From the origin.

Śyāmasundara: From our past lives?

Prabhupāda: From the origin, yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) one of the chapters of the Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā that a yogī remembers in due course, past activities, and again he begins. Where he left it, from that point again he begins. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. He is given the chance.

Kīrtanānanda: So all ideas can be traced back to the original substance which is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Everything from Me." Therefore if you get Kṛṣṇa, then you get all the substance. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the Vedic statement. If you simply understand God, then you understand everything.

Śyāmasundara: So you say that form precedes idea.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Form precedes idea, not idea precedes form.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept that. Form precedes idea. (indistinct).

Devotee: In one of the chapters of the Bhāgavatam you state that before man has an idea about anything, the Supreme Lord has the idea. In the Vedic aphorism, the Lord's eyes see before our eyes, His ears hear before our ears, and actually all substance, before you get an idea there must be the substance, and the substance is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: And any idea that we have, whether good or bad, that has come from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15], "The ideas are coming from Me."

Devotee: So if a person thinks he has an idea of a skyscraper building, it's because Paramātmā has given him that idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he gets idea: "Yes, there is a building like that, you can do that." For man there cannot be anything, invention. He can say "discovered", there is nothing invented.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that these two things are opposing, idea and substance, they are thesis and antithesis but the spirit contains both of them so it is the synthesis.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we agree. Viruddha (Sanskrit), viruddha, contradictory thing can be adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Because what is viruddha, opposite, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa, and what is substance, that is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. We are thinking viruddha. Just like this same example, cooler and heater. They are opposite but they are coming from electricity. Therefore in electricity power, both can be adjusted(?). You can say, "Electricity can be cooler, electricity can be heater." That is called viruddha (Sanskrit). Contradictory things adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Inconceivable, therefore we say inconceivable. Simultaneously one and different. That is our philosophy. Simultaneously we are all equal, one with God, and different. In our…, this material world, it is impossible to think like that, therefore it is called inconceivable.

Śyāmasundara: Everything we can conceive of, that must exist somewhere?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like I conceive of a gold mountain. Now in this world there is no gold mountain…

Prabhupāda: There is actual gold mountain. You have not seen. That information (is) from Bhāgavatam.

Śyāmasundara: Then let us say I can conceive of a building eight hundred stories high.

Prabhupāda: Eight hundred, eight million stories. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: It doesn't exist.

Prabhupāda: It exists.

Śyāmasundara: On this planet, no.

Prabhupāda: On this planet, you can say like that.

Śyāmasundara: So you can conceive of it somewhere so it must exist.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when many Brahmās came. So not only four-headed but millions of headed Brahmās.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So I can conceive of that so it must exist.

Prabhupāda: The substance is, the fact is you cannot conceive anything which is not in existence.

Śyāmasundara: So somewhere must be the square root of minus one, even though…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, spiritual world is like that. But here in this material world, we have got experience, one plus one equal to two, and one minus one equal to zero. In the spiritual world this does not apply. There one plus one equals one and one minus one equals one. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation], Vedic wisdom. Pūrṇam, that from the complete, you take the complete, still it is complete. So where you have got this idea? So therefore you have to know from the Vedic.

Śyāmasundara: So it must exist if I can…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But what about the idea that God is evil?

Prabhupāda: He is evil also. He has got His evil also.

Devotee: But not according to our understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but because He is absolute, either He is evil or good, He is God. That is absolute. You cannot say, "God is evil (indistinct) and now, therefore He is evil." No, He is good.

Śyāmasundara: What about the idea that God does not exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes, He does not exist in the rascal. That's a fact. The rascal cannot understand what is God therefore (indistinct) does not exist.

Kīrtanānanda: He is covered by the curtain of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) I am God.

Prabhupāda: That is also fact. Because you are part and parcel of God. Gold is gold, gold particle is also gold. If you say, "I am God," that means if you are particle of gold you can say, "I am gold." Just like you can say, "I am American," and President Nixon also can say, "I am American." That does not mean you are President Nixon.

Śyāmasundara: What if I think I am President Nixon? I can conceive…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you can hold the post of President Nixon somehow, somebody.

Śyāmasundara: Let us say, "I am now president of the United States."

Prabhupāda: That is madness. (laughter) You can say, "I am President Nixon," this will be taken you are, President Nixon as American. Because he is also American. So you are also American. In that way you can say, "I am President Nixon." In the American understanding.

Devotee: So that madness is coming from the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: That is not madness. You can say like that that I am… It is not clearly said. You can say, "I am as good as President Nixon, as American." That is the explanation.

Śyāmasundara: Anyway whatever I can conceive must exist.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this absolute consciousness or the idea in and for itself manifests itself in three forms. The first was the subjective mind. This is the individual who creates abstractions and he…

Prabhupāda: Subjective mind, just like although I have never heard what is God but I can think within my mind that as there is every man there is some controller, some chief man. So all this creation as I have seen, there must be a controller. This is thinking, right way.

Śyāmasundara: Subjectively.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He says the subjective mind manifests itself again in three ways. First…

Prabhupāda: So that three ways, impersonal, localized and personal.

Śyāmasundara: In a way. First I understand that I relate to this body, somehow, then I get some understanding of outside objects, and then I get intelligence, real and moral choice.

Prabhupāda: Yes, these things are there. These things are there. Supposing the animal, he is thinking that he's body but when he comes to the human form of body he thinks, "Am I really body?" Then he thinks, "No, I am not this body. It is my body." Advanced thinking. "Then what I am?" This is progression.

Śyāmasundara: Then he says that this absolute idea, the in and for itself manifests itself in the objective mind such as our laws, our ideas of morality, our social ethics. In other words the individual consciousness manifests itself as a group consciousness, as we have laws that govern the state. These are extensions of our own…

Prabhupāda: As soon as we accept a controller, all these things will come. The laws must come, the control must come, the morality must come, immorality, everything will come as soon as we accept a controller. The atheistic persons do not accept the controller, they do everything nonsense, immoral.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the free will develops in these three areas of experience of law, morality and social ethics.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is the field of free will activities. Unless you have got platform to execute your (indistinct), there is no meaning of free will. So that is the platform. There must be law, there must be system, morality. That is (indistinct). Just like Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa, "Now, whatever you like, you do." That is free will. But He has explained to him, "This is this, this is this, now it is you have your choice."

Śyāmasundara: Here's where he may differ from you. He says that morality is where the will evaluates itself and sets its own standards.

Prabhupāda: No. Our morality is not like that. We accept morality from higher authorities. Our morality is standardized. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We accept that is morality.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the state of California's morality may change. It may say gambling is legal tomorrow and then drinking is not legal.

Prabhupāda: Because that law is imperfect but God's law cannot be imperfect. That's perfect. Therefore we don't take others' advice. That is imperfect. We take God's advice because that is perfect. Or God's representative's advice, that is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Then he says that the idea in and for itself expresses itself as the absolute spirit.

Prabhupāda: That means he is speaking the imperfect perfect. He is speaking from material platform. He has no spiritual platform.

Śyāmasundara: He says the subjective mind deals with inner experience, the objective mind deals with outer experience but the absolute mind deals with both, it unites them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is absolute, that we can (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: And that this absolute expresses itself in three forms again, art, religion, and philosophy. On the first level the absolute assumes a sensuous form which we call beauty, and this is art, that the spirit…

Prabhupāda: So our definition of God (is) He is all-beautiful.

Śyāmasundara: So He is all art, artful too, artistic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So all-beautiful means includes everything, everything beautiful. (end)

DARWIN.SYA

Charles Darwin

Śyāmasundara: Darwin is the originator of the doctrine of natural selection, or survival of the fittest. That means that in the course of adapting to the environment one type of animal will develop in a particular way which is best suited for that environment, and he will pass on his superior qualities to his offspring so that that particular species will survive, whereas another, which is not so suitable to that environment, will die out. This is called natural selection. Nature selects different species that can best survive.

Prabhupāda: So what is his explanation of the nature?

Śyāmasundara: Nature is a combination of physical forces in the universe.

Prabhupāda: What does he say about nature?

Śyāmasundara: Nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Well, nature is a… All phenomenon can be explained by means of physical laws.

Prabhupāda: Who made these physical laws?

Śyāmasundara: He is not so much concerned with…

Prabhupāda: Why is he not concerned? If he is putting some theory for understanding, why he is not concerned with some primary principles?

Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot be certain how everything began.

Prabhupāda: Then how he is certain that this natural circumstance is favorable? How he is making certain?

Śyāmasundara: He made many, many tests; he has much evidence…

Prabhupāda: What is that evidence?

Śyāmasundara: …to show that animals adapt to their environments, just like if you…

Prabhupāda: Why he takes animals first? Why not others?

Śyāmasundara: Animals, trees, plants, insects, men, he examines all the different varieties. For instance if you put a certain animal in a cold climate, he will develop hair to protect his body against the cold, and he will pass on this characteristic to his sons.

Prabhupāda: So why…? The people in Greenland, do they develop hair?

Śyāmasundara: They don't have so much hair, but they develop very fatty tissues. Their eyes are slitted so there is not so much snow and bright light…

Prabhupāda: Then development of hair is not only the existent; there are other many conditions. You cannot say that development of hair is due to the condition as he says, natural condition. That is not a fixed-up…

Śyāmasundara: I was just using that as an example of how a species can adapt to its environment.

Prabhupāda: The question is that this development of body, is there any plan that this body should exist in certain condition of nature, and therefore he must have these equipments, either you say, tissues or veins or hair? Who has made these arrangements? That is the question.

Śyāmasundara: His answer to that is chance variation.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. There is no such chance. If he says chance, that means he is a nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: He examines that…

Prabhupāda: He examines what is already existing. But our question is, who has made these circumstances, different circumstances for the existence of different animals? That is our question.

Śyāmasundara: Well, just like the frog may lay millions of eggs. Out of all those millions of eggs, a few-three, four-may survive. That means those who were the fittest, by chance they happened to be best fitted to survive. Otherwise too many frogs…

Prabhupāda: If I say that frogs or many others animals lay eggs, millions… Just like the snake. They give birth to so many hundreds and thousands of snakes at a time. So, if so many snakes are allowed to exist, then there will be disturbance. Therefore the nature's law is that the big snake eats up the small, small snakes. That is nature's law. But behind this nature's law there is brain. That is our proposition: that nature's law is not blind. There is brain, and that brain is God. We get it from Bhagavad-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. So whatever things are happening in the material nature, it is being done by the indication of the Supreme Lord in order to maintain everything in order. Just like the snake is laying eggs, thousands. If they are not killed, then the whole world will be full of snakes only. So there is a plan that the snakes will eat. Just like tiger. Tiger, they also have their cubs, but the male tiger kills them and the female tiger hides them. So many tigers are coming out. So that is another economic Malthus theory that whenever there is large number of population there must be some war, some epidemic, some earthquake, like that. They should die. So these natural activities are planned; they are not chance. As he is saying, "chance," that means he has no sufficient knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: On the other hand, he has a huge amount of evidence which he has gathered…

Prabhupāda: Evidence, that is all right. Evidence, we have also got evidence. Evidence must be there. As soon as there is evidence, then he should not speak anything of chance.

Śyāmasundara: Just like out of millions of frogs, one frog will be better adapted to living in the water.

Prabhupāda: That is not chance; that is plan. That is plan. That is not chance. He does not know that. As soon as he says chance, that means his knowledge is not perfect. Chance… If a man says chance when he cannot explain, that is evasive. Therefore he is not in perfect knowledge; therefore he is not fit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, that's all, because he has no perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he sees a plan or a design also, but he sees it in…

Prabhupāda: Therefore if he sees a plan and design, then whose design? As soon as you call it design, there must be designer. As (soon as) you call a plan, there must be a planner. That he does not know.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the plan is only the workings of mechanical nature.

Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Nature is not working mechanically. There is a plan. The sun is rising exactly according to calculation. Calculation not first; first of all sun rises. But we get experience than in such-and-such season the sun rises at such-and-such time, so in that season, exactly to the minute, to the second, the sun rises. So it is neither chance nor whimsical. There is a plan. There is a plan.

Śyāmasundara: Could it not be said that that is mechanical…

Prabhupāda: Who made this mechanical? As soon as you bring the question of mechanical, there must be a brain who set up the machine. Mechanical means, just like your, what is that, telex is working. That is mechanical. That's all right. But behind this machine. there is a big brain who has made this possible. Now you are seeing at the present moment that by pushing one button you get your business done, mechanically, but who made this machine. That is important. This machine has not come out itself. There is iron and there is some, it is made of iron. So iron has not molded itself to that machine; there was a brain who has made the machine possible. Now when you are using, because you have no, if you have no knowledge… Just like in our childhood we used to think that there is a man within the gramophone box. This is childish. It is not mechanical. Everything has got a plan, design, and behind that plan and design there is a brain, big brain. What do you say, here is a scientific man?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually modern scientists try to prove that life itself started from four basic chemical elements. They are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen. These four basic elements are necessary for making all the by-processes. Somehow they say that it is made and they don't know who made it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore their knowledge is imperfect. As soon as you say chemical, chemical we have got experience, it is manufactured. Some by big company, they manufacture chemicals, so basic principle is chemicals, who made the chemicals? That question must be there.

Śyāmasundara: Jus t like a hundred years ago we did not know about the existence of uranium, so isn't it possible…

Prabhupāda: You did not know but you don't know who was there. You did not know. Then three hundred years ago that governments did not know there is a land. But it was there.

Śyāmasundara: But isn't it possible that some day we may be able to discover the source of all these chemicals.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is… There is no question of discovering. There is already, it is known. It is not known to you. We know. It is not known to you, but it is known to us. And the Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], the original source of everything: Brahman. We know it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the origin of everything." So we know that there is a big brain who is doing everything, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ [Bg. 9.10]. So we know. Darwin may not know. That is his foolishness.

Śyāmasundara: He might say the same thing about us.

Prabhupāda: No. He cannot say the same thing about us. We accept Kṛṣṇa, not blindly. Our predecessors, our ācāryas, our learned scholars, they have accepted. So we are not blind. Rather, he cannot say anything. As soon as he says chance, that means he has no knowledge. We don't say chance. We have got an original cause. But he says chance; therefore he has no knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: The scientists have found that we grow up out of a set of genes in the sperm of the male. They are called genes, tiny cells.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Wherefrom the genes came?

Śyāmasundara: Well these can be altered by cosmic radiation. Supposing a cosmic ray hits the gene, it may change it slightly so that maybe it comes out with…

Prabhupāda: That is not the question. Suppose if you have got life, I can kill you with a knife. But the question is, "Wherefrom this life came?" I can change, merely with a knife, your life. That is not very important thing, changing. The thing is to find out the origin, wherefrom the genes came.

Śyāmasundara: He has a book called The Origin of Species, and he traces back…

Prabhupāda: First of all, you are testing his knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: I'm trying to explain. You want to know what he thinks is the origin; so they trace back through geological excavation to the most simplest forms of life, and they see that in the…

Prabhupāda: What is the simplest form of life?

Śyāmasundara: They find at the lowest bottom of the soil layers which have built up through the years, they find small one-celled animal forms, sea shells, like that.

Prabhupāda: So how is it forming?

Śyāmasundara: Gradually, through the ages, they have become more and more complex to this age when…

Prabhupāda: What is the beginning?

Śyāmasundara: In the beginning they have found only the one-celled animals.

Prabhupāda: They found, but beyond that they do not know. They found it. It was already there. So wherefrom it came?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another definition that is raised by most so-called modern scientists, research scientists, they try to find out the meaning of what is research and what is invention. So many scientists have posed also the concept that invention, strictly speaking, is a paradox. When we say invention, "I invented something," somebody invented radio, or somebody invented such-and-such thing, it is not really an invention.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it cannot come out of nothing. It is already there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We did not know it, that it was already there. Foolishly we say that we invent these things.

Prabhupāda: You see, the action is already going on. You see all of a sudden something comes. But that is not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Then how do you explain that…

Prabhupāda: We explain that everything, the source, the original source of everything is Brahman, Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: What we are discussing is this doctrine of natural selection, or survival of the fittest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That natural selection, that law is made by Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So there is a law of…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. The scientists say that we do not know wherefrom it is coming. All of a sudden I see something and you say that invention. It is not invention. It is already there. You could not see before, and now you can see. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Just like dinosaurs, these huge animals once existing in…

Prabhupāda: That is his imagination.

Śyāmasundara: Well, they found bones…

Prabhupāda: Bones, that's all right. There are many… We also say from the Vedic śāstra there is fish, timiṅgila, which can swallow up big, big whales, you see. That is also very big. And there is Varāha incarnation, He picked up the whole earth on the tusk. How much big the Varāha animal was to show that it can pick up the whole earth, earthly planet just like a ball. He cannot imagine such big animals.

Śyāmasundara: But my point is they excavated down into the ground and they found that gradually, through the years, animals are evolving towards more and more complex forms, from very simple forms in the water to land animals, plants, and these big dinosaurs, then they died out.

Prabhupāda: If they died out, that means there is no more existence of that animal. But how can you say that the animal is existing somewhere else? Now, according to his statement that from a certain basic principle, by gradual evolution, the human body is coming. Now his theory is that the human body is coming from the monkey.

Śyāmasundara: They are related; they come from the same…

Prabhupāda: Related? Everything is related. That is another thing. But if the monkey's body is developing into human body…

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Apelike man.

Prabhupāda: Then after development of human body, why is the monkey species does not cease? Why not it does not cease?

Śyāmasundara: They are like branches of the same tree, he calls them.

Prabhupāda: Branches of the tree, just like we see now the monkey is existing and human being is also existing. Similarly, we say what he sees the beginning of life, at that time also there was human being.

Śyāmasundara: They find no evidence of them.

Prabhupāda: Why no evidence?

Śyāmasundara: In the ground. There's no evidence in the ground.

Prabhupāda: In the ground? That means that in the ground is the only evidence? There is no other evidence?

Karandhara: Scientists think that the only way to maintain integrity is not to accept anything until they can see it or understand it with their own senses and mind, by material evidence. That is their whole platform of empiric research, that nothing can be accepted until it's proven by their own sensuous experience.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot prove that there was no human being wherefrom they are starting their study. They cannot prove.

Śyāmasundara: It appears from the evidence that there are apelike men in certain layers of…

Prabhupāda: The apelike man or manlike ape is already existing. If you say development, just like from this, it has developed this, then there should be no existence of this. Kārya-kāraṇam. That's all. Now when I see still both are existing…

Śyāmasundara: The former doesn't exist any more.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If from monkey, man is coming, so then when monkey develops into man, the monkey should not exist. Kārya-kāraṇam, kārya-kāraṇam, cause and effect. When the effect is there, the cause is finished now.

Śyāmasundara: The monkey didn't cause the man; they came from the same common ancestor. That is their explanation. They had the same common ancestor.

Prabhupāda: That is, we say that all we come from God, the same ancestors, the same father. What is the difference?

Karandhara: Everyone has the same ancestor.

Prabhupāda: The same ancestor. What is the new thing?

Śyāmasundara: But if I am a Darwinist, your explanations are still not satisfactory to me. I'm not convinced because I see…

Prabhupāda: My explanation is that the original father is Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya: [Bg. 14.4] "As many forms are there, I am the bīja pradaḥ pitā, I am the seed-giving father." So what is your objection to this?

Śyāmasundara: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find no evidence in any of the layers below of any…

Prabhupāda: You are packed up with the layers of the earth, that's all. That is your boundary of knowledge. That is not knowledge. That is not knowledge. There are many other evidences.

Śyāmasundara: But certainly, if there were men living millions of years ago, they would have…

Prabhupāda: But man is still living. Man is still living.

Śyāmasundara: But they would have left evidence in the earth. They would have left evidence behind them, tangible evidence, that I could see the remains of their civilization.

Prabhupāda: So if I say that the human society, man after death is burned into ashes, so where does he get the bones?

Śyāmasundara: Well, that's possible, but I don't find…

Prabhupāda: According to our Vedic system, when a man is dead, he is burned into ashes. Why the rascal will get the bones?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are no bones.

Śyāmasundara: But there are no other… There's no cities, tools…

Prabhupāda: The animals, they are not burned. They remain. But human being, they burn into ashes. So he cannot find the human bones.

Karandhara: Another thing is that after a certain number of years, bones cease to be bones. They turn back into chemicals and merge into the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But what about cities and tools, these things? There must be some evidence. In the lowest layer there are clam shells that have become fossilized. In the lower levels millions of years back they find clam shells.

Karandhara: They say it's been millions of years, but how do they prove it's been millions of years?

Śyāmasundara: Through radioactivity.

Karandhara: But that is an imperfect method, devised by imperfect senses.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is limited. It is limited. It is very hard to find about five thousand or six thousand years back.

Karandhara: They don't even agree amongst each other about what the age of things are.

Śyāmasundara: Just like if you go down a hundred feet below the soil, that soil has been down there a long time. But there is no evidences of men, actually civilized creatures.

Prabhupāda: Why he is trying to find out men's bones there? What is the…

Śyāmasundara: I'm just saying that it appears, because layer after layer is deposited in the earth's crust, that the animal forms are evolving toward more complex forms, from simple animals to bigger animals, and then more complex, then to the man, civilized man.

Prabhupāda: From where it began?

Śyāmasundara: It began with the simplest forms.

Prabhupāda: What is that simplest form?

Śyāmasundara: Small one-celled animals, then bivalves, then mollusks, then simple forms of aquatics.

Karandhara: So the one-celled animals must be God.

Śyāmasundara: That isn't what I'm talking about; I'm just saying that this evolution appears to exist, evolution of species, from simplest forms to more complex forms. That's Darwin's idea.

Prabhupāda: But the simplest form is still existing and the complex form is also existing at the present moment. Not that from the simplest form developed, developed, developed. Just like development means, just like I have developed my childhood body. The childhood body is no more there. But it is a fact I have developed from childhood body to this body. There are so many. So similarly, all the species are existing simultaneously, still.

Śyāmasundara: But they find no evidence in the earlier times that these complex forms existed.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Earlier times or modern times, when I see the all different species, 8,400,000 species of life still existing, so what is the question of development? It existed long ago also. You might not have seen, you have not source of knowledge to understand, but you have to accept it, because all these species are now existing. Similarly, millions of years ago all these species existed. You might have missed. That is a different thing.

Śyāmasundara: But then it is simply a matter of one opinion against another, because the scientists say…

Prabhupāda: No. It is not opinion, it is a fact. Do you think that this development has ceased all other species, simply human being is there?

Śyāmasundara: No. But I don't see evidence that all these complex forms…

Prabhupāda: I have said that one, this, by evolution, one after another, the human form is there. Now Darwin's theory is that some forty thousand years ago there was no human being.

Śyāmasundara: Several million years.

Prabhupāda: But we don't see that. Because at the present moment we see that all the species are there existing, including human beings.

Śyāmasundara: But he says they evolved. That's because they evolved.

Prabhupāda: Evolved, but they are still existing. Evolved, that is another thing. But all of them are existing still. So how you can say that millions of years they did not exist, all? His theory is that…

Śyāmasundara: Because there is not evidence that they exist.

Prabhupāda: Evidence, this is the evidence: if now all the species of life are existing, why not millions of years ago? What do you say?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It was existing, but simply we did not know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is one-sided test.

Śyāmasundara: You can say they existed, but show me. I don't see any proof.

Prabhupāda: You do not see the animals, the aquatics, the birds, bees, trees-everything-is existing?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But ten million years ago, according to my excavations, there were no beasts; there were all aquatics.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Ten millions of… You cannot give a history of ten millions. It is your imagination. Where is the history of ten millions of years? You are simply imagining, that is your word. But where is historical evidence? You cannot give history more than three thousand years, and you are speaking of ten millions of years. This is all nonsense. How you can go… There is no history in the human civ… There is no history, ten millions of years.

Śyāmasundara: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer…

Prabhupāda: No, no. Dirt… You are calculating ten millions-it may be ten years. Because you cannot give history of the human society more than three thousand years, so how you speak of ten millions, twenty millions? Where you were there? It is all imagination. You were existing(?), so existence was not there. How can you say that ten millions, twenty millions these things happened? This is simply imagination. In that way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense. Everyone can imagine their own way. I can say "No, it is not ten millions. It is fifty millions."

Śyāmasundara: They have a scientific way of testing that things disintegrate at a certain rate.

Prabhupāda: But here is a scientist, and he does not agree with that.

Śyāmasundara: What about the half-life of certain elements?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The, normally, what they call the age determination, or how old a species is, they normally find out from this so-called (indistinct). They find some bone or something which contains normally carbonate. And normally they get this age of the elements or age of these findings by so-called Carbon 14 method. Carbon 14 is an isotope of normal carbon, it is called Carbon 12. Carbon 14 is radioactive. It's one in which they put in the radioactive testing, and they find out because it follows the normal chemical laws or physical laws. This is governed by the Lord Himself, by Kṛṣṇa Himself. They're finding the chemical lowest form, and from that chemical lowest they normally try to reduce the, how old the sample is, and that method is very limited, it is not applicable to all findings also, and a test, a very reliable test (indistinct) to about five thousand, six thousand years old but beyond that it is very doubtful whether the findings are really true or not. [break] It is empiric so we cannot fully convince that such-and-such species lives such-and-such long just from that finding. You need more evidence to prove it (indistinct) was existing and it disappeared from such-and-such time but it gives a relative value from so-called modern scientific point of view.

Prabhupāda: But evolution we accept. Evolution we accept but it is not that there was no existence of human being. That we do not accept. Evolution we accept. Just like my childhood manifestation is extinct but there are many other child. Same time. So our point is all the species of life, they are existing simultaneously. Evolution there is, we accept that but it is not that one is missing, one has gone away, and another is come, ten million, thirty millions there was no human being. This is all nonsense. He cannot find in the layer, that is not evidence.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, there's no dinosaurs existing now. They're extinct now but where are they gone? Some other planets then? Is there some…?

Prabhupāda: No. Not in this planet, he has no chance to see it.

Śyāmasundara: There's dinosaurs existing on this planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, he has no chance to see it, or it is imagination only.

Śyāmasundara: That's very hard to accept. What about the dodo? It was a giant bird…

Prabhupāda: Our proposition is that there is an evolutionary process from aquatics to birds here, plants life, then insect life, then bird's life, then animal life, then human life. So this is a evolutionary process, we accept but it is not that one is extinct, another is surviving. All of them are existing simultaneously.

Śyāmasundara: But they are not all present at this particular moment on this planet, are they?

Prabhupāda: Particular, it is not that he has seen all the planets or all the universes. What he has seen?

Śyāmasundara: That's what I mean. They may be extinct on this planet but on some other planet they…

Prabhupāda: At least he has no power to see everything. That is a fact. He's not so powerful that he can see everywhere and everything. That you have to accept. He has limited power to see. By that limited power to see he cannot conclude that one species (is) extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, your senses by which you are (indistinct), they're limited. So how you can say, "This is finished," or "This is that." That is not to be accepted. Because your senses are imperfect. You cannot see. You cannot search out. Have you searched out all the earthly layers or the 25,000 miles everywhere? That is not possible for you. The whole earthly planet is circumference is 25,000 miles, radius how many, has he discovered that all the places?

Śyāmasundara: No, representative samples in many places.

Prabhupāda: Our first proposition is that he says that there was no human beings some millions of years ago. That's not a fact. Because we see all different species of life existing along with human beings. Therefore it should be concluded this is always existing. Human life is always existing. That is our first charge against him. He cannot say there was no human life.

Śyāmasundara: But we don't see any dinosaurs existing.

Prabhupāda: You do not see-your power is very limited-but we have to conclude in this way, when we see at the present moment all the different species of life are existing. Therefore it is existing always.

Śyāmasundara: But I don't see all the…

Prabhupāda: You don't see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited. You don't see. And because you don't see, it is not to be accepted. So many people say, "I don't see God." That does not mean we shall accept, "Oh, so many people say-majority of people will say like that-'We don't see God.' " Then we are merely crazy fellow, we are after God?

Śyāmasundara: No. But dinosaurs…

Prabhupāda: But simply by dinosaur missing you cannot say that what about other all species of life, other.

Śyāmasundara: Many, many, many, many are extinct, according to…

Prabhupāda: I am accepting many are extinct, but the evolutionary process, it means one extinct, and another comes. But we see that the monkey, from monkey, man comes. The monkey is there and man is there. The monkey is not finished.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I remember last time when we discussed this, you said, "Well, then, why don't we see men coming out of monkeys still?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "Why hasn't some man been born out of a monkey?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "In our experience…"

Prabhupāda: The monkey is existing, the man is existing.

Śyāmasundara: "So if men came from monkeys, why don't we see it still happening?" That's what you said.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our argument.

Śyāmasundara: So if you accept that there is an evolution, do you accept that the bodies change because of changing conditions of the natural surroundings?

Prabhupāda: Body is not changing. The body is already there. The soul is changing bodies, transmigrating from one body to another.

Karandhara: Darwin doesn't accept that there is a fixed number of species. Rather, the number of species may vary at any time, simply according to the natural selection. But he doesn't give any axiom that there are a certain number of species from which all other variations come. We are saying that there are 8,400,000 species to begin with.

Prabhupāda: But if first of all you give account for eight million species-you have no account. We say these are the fixed-up species. But your calculation of species, first of all give us account for eight millions, then you say, "The list is not complete."

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that there's constant…

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, within that eight millions, but you cannot give us list.

Śyāmasundara: They say that there is new species always evolving.

Prabhupāda: That is not new. That is within the eight millions. You could not find the same thing, you could not find, before that; now we are finding. Your species, you could (not) give us a complete list. What is the evolutionary process wherefrom it began and how it's coming? You cannot give any fixed-up list. That is your imperfect knowledge. You are simply imagining. "It may be changed," "It may be chance," or this or that. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Just like, let's say some condition changes suddenly in an environment…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any condition changes, but within that eight millions. Because you cannot give us any list, so then you have to accept whatever species of life may take by changes or circumstance with this or that, that will be within the eight millions.

Karandhara: Just like if you open a marketplace, at any given point you can go through the marketplace and see that there's this kind of person, this kind of person…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …and he may go away from the marketplace. So because he goes away, you can't say that that person doesn't exist any more because he's not observable there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, in Darwin's concept he used the natural selection, but he doesn't go far enough what that nature is. He used the term "natural," but he does not know how to…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Explain what is nature. That means insufficient knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He simply observed there are mutations in nature. For instance, he thinks that perhaps at one time…

Prabhupāda: That means nature is working.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nature is working, but he cannot explain how nature is working.

Śyāmasundara: At one time he says the one ape developed an opposing thumb so he was able to use tools, grasp things, so he became superior and passed that quality on to his offspring and that developed into man. Simply by…

Prabhupāda: Then when there is offspring, then the same question comes: "Why the monkey does not produce offspring-a man?" What is this nonsense?

Karandhara: Scientists often take the shelter of this premise, that it's not…, we don't…, we're not trying to find out. Whenever they're asked what is the original source, they say, "We're not concerned with that. We're concerned with just examining the phenomenon of that source."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is childish. That is childish. Just like I have seen the phenomena, without man there cannot be singing. In the box there must be one man there. This is childish calculation, that's all. Phenomenal study means childish. A fan, in our childhood we will think that a fan is running, there must be some ghost who is running it. So this sort of phenomenal study is not scientific study. It is not scientific. (If) we don't find the original cause, that is not scientific.

Karandhara: That's what they're looking for. But because they can't produce a satisfactory answer, they have to say, "Well, we're not looking for that." They can't come forward with an answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, what it is called? Participia principeology, or something like that, that is called.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) in question.

Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: You must admit, though, being a scientist, that supposing you go down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, you see so many layers of earth going up thousands of feet, that the layers at the bottom are very, very old. You must admit, because the earth takes so many years to deposit soil. Even if it's only one million years, it's still very old. And in that lowest layer we find only evidences of simple…

Prabhupāda: So where is the lowest layer, he has gone? Where is it? Wherefrom it begins?

Śyāmasundara: The Grand Canyon is an example. That's a very deep canyon in the ground in Arizona.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What happens if there was no human beings in that area so that they don't find any…?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Human beings aside, we still find…

Prabhupāda: Just like desert. Desert there is no human beings. If you dig the desert, what you will find?

Śyāmasundara: That's all right. It doesn't matter if it was ocean; still we find gradually the forms become more and more complex toward the…

Prabhupāda: But you cannot say where is the beginning and where is the end.

Śyāmasundara: No. That we can't say.

Prabhupāda: Therefore his knowledge is imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He said that if we say the origin of species is the simplest form, one-celled…

Prabhupāda: How the species living force came in? What is the cause? How it is coming? Wherefrom the life begins?

Karandhara: It still evades the principal question of who is the creator. I can build a big house or I can build a small box. The point is, who is the builder? So it's evading the question of who… Even if everything started with a one-celled animal, what started the one-celled animal?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the one cell came?

Śyāmasundara: That they say. He says (it) comes from four different chemicals: oxygen, hydrogen…

Prabhupāda: Well, wherefrom the chemical came? They're not questioning. Who supplied the chemical?

Śyāmasundara: We still may be able to discover some day…

Prabhupāda: That means you are fool, that you are granted. As soon as you say "still," then you are fool number one. That is our…

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what the modern scientists are doing. They're trying to make life in a test tube. What they are trying to do, these so-called biochemists, at the present time, their goal is to make life in a test tube. So what they do is they are going to put so-called big molecules-they say DNA, dioxynucleic acid. This molecule is a necessary molecule for…, it's a lively thing. So they're going to make certain combinations of these molecules and put in the test tube and find out whether there is life coming out from the test tube, and then trying to prove how life was formed. But it's such a foolish idea that they will never be able to make the…

Prabhupāda: They are a set of fools. And going on under the name of scientists. Set of fools.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the other hand, the so-called physicist… His name was Heisenberg. He produced the concept of the theory of uncertainty, and he found out that certain physical rules that govern certain parts of the so-called universal system of rules-why the planets are moving around the sun, and why they have a repeated course and so on. But he did not know what was the answer. So he named the title of the theory, the Theory of Uncertainty. Based on that, there are so many groups coming up, but they found uncertainty itself, that implies that there is some…

Prabhupāda: Basic principle is uncertainty, and they're building on big, big buildings.

Śyāmasundara: Darwin calls it the missing link.

Prabhupāda: That missing link, let them learn from us. We can give him the missing link.

Karandhara: But ultimately they'll say it'll come down to we propose that Kṛṣṇa is the creator or that God is the creator, then they'll say "That must be proved to me." In other words, they want to fit God within their own empiric gaze. That will be their only satisfaction when they actually become able to circumvent God's existence and create a power by their own intelligence.

Prabhupāda: He has to admit that the theory of uncertainty is bogus, but everything is there, and that masking behind all these things there must be big brain. That one has to accept. Simply uncertainty, that is not a science. The certainty is that behind all these things there is a big brain. I do not know Him-that is a different thing-but there is a big brain.

Śyāmasundara: Darwin, he was not so much interested in those questions of origin and those things, but he was a botanist and a biologist, and he simply wanted to investigate how things evolved from one simple form to a more complex form…

Prabhupāda: That he cannot say, how the evolved. He captured something out of his imagination, but he cannot explain scientifically.

Śyāmasundara: From simple forms to more complex forms.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that this happens through mutation.

Prabhupāda: But you do it in the laboratory by mutation, by combination.

Śyāmasundara: They can do that.

Prabhupāda: No. But he said that that is not possible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they find that just like I said already, the basic elements of life-carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen…

Śyāmasundara: You know the theory, not theory but practical proof, that the genes can be mutated by bombarding with cosmic rays.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That they prove by so-called… That's why the cancer… The example of that mutation is the cancer cell. They try to find out how cancer is caused in the body. They say that somehow the cell has been changed, and they say that it has been done by mutation, so they try to prove it in the laboratory by changing the structure of the cell, and that is called mutation. So they say why the cancer is formed because cancer is an abnormal cell, this is a normal cell. In answering why these elements are formed from these basic four chemicals-carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen-they try, they say that somehow this nitrogen and hydrogen, they combine forming ammonia. That is called ammonia, from nitrogen and hydrogen. They say somehow this has formed, and somehow, by combination of hydrogen and oxygen, water is formed. And somehow by combination of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, these so-called carbohydrates, or these are formed. But they say somehow these are formed, but they do not know how it is formed.

Śyāmasundara: But all that Darwin is interested in is in the evolution of species: how one type of body evolves to the other type due to the changing conditions, and that because he has evolved a certain body he is best adapted to survive in that condition so that his species survives. So the scientists have shown that by bombarding the cosmic radiation or radioactive elements, that a gene or cell can change, mutate, so a different kind of animal comes out. From one kind of mother a different kind of animal comes out.

Prabhupāda: But we say that different kind of animal is not beyond these 8,400,000 species.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually this is not completely different animal. Some of these properties…

Śyāmasundara: A variation.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just a little change. But another point in that connection is that nature makes its own equilibrium, balance of all the species, and it could have been all a balance. That is why, when nature is balancing all the species, there is no question of making another species fresh or something. This has been already made. It has already been done by nature. What is that nature, you have to ask by going to the real nature, not this false nature.

Śyāmasundara: Just like Darwin first investigated some islands off of Peru, Galapagos Islands, and he found different species of life that exist there that don't exist anywhere else, so that they must have evolved…

Prabhupāda: That means that he has not seen all the species, because he has not traveled all over the universe.

Karandhara: Deductive. It's a deductive conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has seen one island but he has not seen the whole creation.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? How he can fix up. There may be many others he has not seen.

Śyāmasundara: But the only thing that I want to get at is…

Prabhupāda: The only thing he has has studied, this earthly planet…

Śyāmasundara: …how the bodies change.

Prabhupāda: …but there are many other millions of planets, he has not seen all of them. He has not excavated, dug the depth of all the planets, so how he can conclude that this is all? He has not seen everything, neither it is possible for him.

Śyāmasundara: But according to the conditions, different conditions on this planet, natural conditions, certain animals…

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he has not seen different conditions in different planets. Suppose the sun planet, the condition is fire. So how life can exist in the fire, he has no knowledge.

Karandhara: You point out in the introduction to Śrī Īśopaniṣad that deductive conclusions are always imperfect because you have to be able to deduce everything in order to come out to the right conclusion. Just like if you live in a village where everyone is only five feet tall, you may deduct that everyone in existence is only five feet tall; but if you go to the next village you may find someone six feet tall. So you have to search out every village and see every person before you…

Prabhupāda: That is not possible for you. How many millions of villages are there?

Śyāmasundara: No, but see, we're talking about two different things now. He is talking about the doctrine of natural selection or survival of the fittest…

Prabhupāda: But natural selection, that means that is not his selection. Natural selection.

Śyāmasundara: Natural selection.

Prabhupāda: So nature is more powerful than him. So he has not studied nature.

Śyāmasundara: He studies how the bodies change in nature.

Prabhupāda: No. He has not studied. He has studied in a particular place only. But nature means, when you speak of nature, suppose you have studied within this planet, but in nature means there is millions of universes, but he has not studied them.

Śyāmasundara: So you say the doctrine of natural selection is not…

Prabhupāda: Natural selection is there, but how the natural selection is working, he does not know that.

Karandhara: In a sense we know from Vedic information that the species from one end from the smallest germ up to the highest demigod, they are progressively more advanced. So anyone can come along and take out a small eclipsed portion of that sequence and propose the theory that the species is advancing, but that gamut, that range, perspective of higher and lower is existing, but not that it's evolving…

Prabhupāda: It is already there. I am simply changing place, transmigration. That is our theory-transmigration.

Śyāmasundara: But you still haven't answered satisfactorily…

Prabhupāda: Just like you are traveling in a train. There is first class, second class-that is already existing. But if you pay more, you come to the first class. You cannot say, "Now the first class is now created." It was already existing. So their defect is that they have no information of the soul. The soul is transmigrating. The forms are already there. The soul is transmigrating from one apartment to another apartment. That they do not know.

Śyāmasundara: But still I'm not convinced that if we make geologic investigations all over the world, not just the Grand Canyon or here or there, but in many parts of the world we always find the same thing, that the…

Prabhupāda: But if you say that you have studied all over the world, I say you have not studied all over the planet. That is still defective.

Śyāmasundara: Let's just confine it to this planet.

Prabhupāda: No. Why should you confine it? Nature is not only within this planet.

Śyāmasundara: Because you said that millions of years ago there were many complex forms of life existing on this planet.

Prabhupāda: No. Not on this planet; maybe anywhere. It is when you say nature, nature is not confined-what is called-limited within this planet. That you cannot say. When you say nature, this material nature, there are millions of universes and millions of planets in each and every universe. If you have studied… Suppose you have studied this planet; that is not sufficient knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: So, but you said before that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet: men, horses, animals, elephants…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But from hundreds of different sources of this…

Prabhupāda: But I say, I say that it is still existing. The man is existing, the horse is existing, the snake is existing, the insect is existing, the trees are existing; why not millions of years ago?

Śyāmasundara: Because there's no evidence.

Prabhupāda: This is the evidence. This is the evidence. You cannot give the history of this planet. Now suppose the existence of sun, you cannot give history. The sun is existing millions of years ago. It is not that sun is created now. The sun is existing now, the moon is existing now, so why should not they come from millions of years also? The sun existing, and within the sun everything is existing. So if the sun is existing, then other things must be existing. That is my conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: They may be existing, but on this planet we have no evidence…

Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean… That means you limit your study in one planet. That is not full knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: I just want to find out for the time being about…

Prabhupāda: Why time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point.

Śyāmasundara: Well, if you make claims that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet…

Prabhupāda: Why you are… I never said on this planet. By nature's way everything is existing.

Śyāmasundara: So on this planet there were not complex forms of life millions of years ago…

Prabhupāda: So maybe; may not be. That is not of the point. The point is that everything is existing in the nature's way. The species, as we say from Vedic language, 8,400,000, fixed-up. So maybe in your neighborhood, in my neighborhood, it is, they have got…, they are fixed up. But you simply, if you study your neighborhood, that is not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: I accept that. But I want to understand that the theory of evolution is that…

Prabhupāda: Theory of evolution we accept.

Śyāmasundara: …from simple forms of life, more complex forms evolve.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. But they are all existing still. They are not extinct. That is the point.

Śyāmasundara: All right. But on this planet, now if we could examine this planet…

Prabhupāda: Again you come to this planet. Why you are sticking to this planet?

Karandhara: Lord Brahmā, the most complex… From the Vedic information we find that the most complex living entity was first, and from him, he created all the variations. So from the most complex the most simple was evolved. Then if you have the wrong information, you could look at it and say it was the opposite, that from the most simple the most complex evolved. The sequence is there, and if you observe it in the wrong way, you may conclude it's going in the opposite direction.

Śyāmasundara: But in the Vedic scriptures…

Prabhupāda: The first creature is Brahmā, the most intelligent, the most learned.

Śyāmasundara: …and he said, and you say that on this planet there were pastimes, for instance, of Lord Rāmacandra millions of years ago, with His men, His animals, His horses, deers, so many things. But in all of our evidences we find only at that time the most simple forms of life…

Prabhupāda: Your evidence… You will be satisfied with your evidence, but I have got my own evidence. Why shall I accept your evidence? You cannot force your evidence, your so-called evidence upon me. What is evidence? First of all you have to select, what is that evidence.

Śyāmasundara: Terrestrial, archaeological findings…

Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not evidence. That is not evidence.

Karandhara: If you find a bone, how do you know it's not…

Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. You have studied one portion of the creation. That is not evidence. In other portion of the creation there is different. But that is not evidence. Your study, your limited study is not evidence.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the evidence posed by Darwin's theory is not enough to explain…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I agree with that. It doesn't explain there is an evolution…

Prabhupāda: Evolution we accept. There is no quarrel about that point. But we say there are 8,400,000 species of life, evolution is coming through that. But you cannot give us any list that so many… We give real evolution, that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the living entity coming through that. [break] …evolution is taking from here to here, and how many there are? You cannot say. You simply say "missing," "something missing," "something is added," all vague.

Śyāmasundara: That admitted, but…

Prabhupāda: If you admit that you are imperfect in knowledge, then it is no use citing scripture. There will…

Śyāmasundara: But what I want to know is that…

Prabhupāda: …evolution we admit. But your evolution theory is not perfect. Our evolutionary theory is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: But it appears that the evolution is from simple to complex.

Prabhupāda: That we admit, simple. That we admit. There is no difference. But you cannot say what is the simple and what is the complex, and what are the… You say something missing. That is evasive. Why you should be missing if you are in knowledge? You must say this thing is missing, that you have no knowledge.

Karandhara: It's just an axiom, that if any part of the knowledge is perfect, then the whole knowledge is perfect. If you have any part of the truth, you have to have the whole truth in the highest sense. So if their theory is at all correct, and any of the premises are solid, then why it doesn't conclude itself by its own logical deduction? Why it would always have to allude to something missing, some missing factor?

Prabhupāda: Jīva jātiṣu. The Padma Purāṇa says jīva jātiṣu, so different species of life. And they give: from this, this; from this, this; from this, this. Then, just like it is said that from bird's life the beast's life comes. Now the beasts, this category is of three millions types of beasts.

Śyāmasundara: Just like they find evidence of large bird, pterodactyl, which has beastlike properties. It has legs also, and they say from that kind of bird evolved a more beastlike, like you say, beasts.

Prabhupāda: Just like we say that kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam. From the insect life the bird's life developed. That we see practically. One have becomes flies, butterflies. In the grass, worm becomes a butterfly. That is, there is evidence.

Śyāmasundara: But at that time were there only insects existing?

Prabhupāda: No. Everything was existing.

Karandhara: That's not evolution of the species, it's evolution of the soul through the existing species.

Prabhupāda: Transmigration from one body to another. The bodies are already existing.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, they say that during the Ice Age, when there were…, the earth became very cold, and there were great ice formations in Europe and America, that this animal they call the mammoth-it's an elephantlike animal but it had long, very long hair for warmth-suddenly this species appears. Does it mean that that body existed always somewhere else, but it just suddenly appeared in order…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Śyāmasundara: …to live here in that environment?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: What if it is indeed a different species? What do they qualify as a difference in species? I mean, like one man has lots of hair on his body and one man doesn't. That doesn't make him a different species necessarily.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But in this case, elephants always lived in tropical. They were living in hot climates, and suddenly they had to adapt to the cold.

Prabhupāda: No. Again, just like we have got experience with the change of season, different animals are also produced, with the change of season. But it is not that they are coming new. They are already existing.

Śyāmasundara: They're appearing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: Appearing and disappearing according to the seasons.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this Los Angeles City, there is a havoc of flood from the ocean and all men die. That does not mean extinct; the men are there somewhere else. You cannot say that human species is now extinct, because your study is limited.

Śyāmasundara: Supposing one man is particularly adapted, and he is smart, intelligent, and he survives when everything else is killed…

Prabhupāda: That he may survive, that we don't disagree.

Śyāmasundara: But he would say that that man passes on his superior traits to his children, and it's another species.

Prabhupāda: No. He survives, but many other men like him, they are existing somewhere. He may survive of this catastrophe, but that does not mean that other men are all extinct. You cannot say that. In these circumstances this man may survive or may not survive, but man is existing somewhere else.

Śyāmasundara: And another example, for instance there is a dog called the Pekinese dog. It was made by man, it was developed by men. They took a certain type of dog and crushed it's jaws in so many instances until eventually that trait was passed on naturally to its children…

Prabhupāda: But he is still, it belongs to the dog species. We are speaking of dog species.

Śyāmasundara: But it's a new type of dog. New type. Never existed before that, here.

Prabhupāda: New type, that will not exist also. Because it has been artificially made, it is existing now; now it will not exist again.

Karandhara: There's a kind of Indians, when the babies are young they put a board on their head so that (indistinct) like that.

Śyāmasundara: But now this dog is produced naturally, with its face like that.

Karandhara: But it's still a dog.

Prabhupāda: The dog species.

Śyāmasundara: But it's a new species of dog.

Karandhara: Well, they may call it a new species, but according to Vedic definition it isn't a new species.

Śyāmasundara: What did you just define by species? You mean different types of men, you say…

Prabhupāda: The species, definition of species according to biology is different. We say species means jāti, human race.

Śyāmasundara: So four hundred thousand species of humans.

Karandhara: Different levels of consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Different levels of consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: I see.

Karandhara: And within any species there can an infinite variety of variations of that one species. Just like…

Prabhupāda: Just like the scientists, their species is different. Just like we are making division that 400,000 different types of men. They will say this is one species.

Śyāmasundara: So would you say, for instance, someone who is less intelligent or more intelligent than I am is in a different species?

Prabhupāda: Less intelligent or more intelligent does not make any species, because suppose you have got five children, one is less intelligent, more intelligent.

Śyāmasundara: He was just saying levels of consciousness determine the species.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is levels of consciousness, that just like we divide the human society: some men are brāhmaṇas, some men are kṣatriyas, some men are vaiśyas, that can be found at any time.

Śyāmasundara: Those are species?

Prabhupāda: They are not species, according to their…

Śyāmasundara: They are types of men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We said varieties.

Śyāmasundara: Then what is the different species of man, separate from me; for instance, what is another species that is different than I am?

Prabhupāda: I do not know exactly the species, but when we, [break] …means jāti, manuṣya jāti.

Śyāmasundara: I mean what is an example of different species of man. What are they, for example, several species of men?

Prabhupāda: I say that species, this word is not applicable in that sense. In that sense, according to the scientists' species. But when we say species, class you can say. Classes.

Śyāmasundara: Classes. But what, give me an example.

Prabhupāda: Again, just like we are a class-Hare Kṛṣṇa class. Our mentality is different from others.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are a class.

Śyāmasundara: So tribes, more like tribal distinctions?

Prabhupāda: We are not exactly tribal. Culture, by culture.

Śyāmasundara: By interest and culture. I see.

Prabhupāda: By differentiation of culture.

Śyāmasundara: Those are species.

Prabhupāda: Those who are Aryan, non-Aryan; just like I say, they are all human beings, but why you say one Aryan and another non-Aryan? It is difference of culture, that's all.

Devotee: Say, for example, there is the Caucasian race, the Negroid race, different races like that. If they are all living in the same… Say they all join Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then they are all the same…

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not on the basic principle of this body. It is basically on the soul; therefore you will find everyone same.

Śyāmasundara: But otherwise it goes…

Prabhupāda: Because it is culture. When one comes to the spiritual platform, there is no question. Even animal you can accept. Just like we worship Vajrāṅgajī, Hanumān. He's animal, but because he is devotee of Lord Rāmacandra, we worship him. But that doesn't mean we are worshiping animals.

Śyāmasundara: You mean like Bengalis are a different species than Gujaratis? Something like that?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you mix, we have already explained? Our jāti means of the same culture. He may be Gujarati, he may be Bengali, he may be American.

Śyāmasundara: So, for instance, carpenters are different than field workers-like that, different interests?

Prabhupāda: Why different interest? The interest is to earn money. So you may earn money in some way, I may earn money in some way, he may earn money in some way.

Karandhara: So is the primary factor of the variation is how much advanced they are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and how least advanced they are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So there are only two species.

Karandhara: The demons and the devas.

Prabhupāda: This consciousness is coming through so many species, animals, then they're trees, they have no consciousness, but there is living…, the soul is there.

Śyāmasundara: I'm still trying to understand what you mean by the species of human life. It's not clear to me. I don't understand what you mean by the different species of human life.

Prabhupāda: By culture.

Śyāmasundara: By culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One class of human being…

Śyāmasundara: But everyone is looking for money. You said the field worker is not the same as, or is the same as the carpenter, because they're both looking for money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But one who knows how to earn money very easily, and one may not know. That is culture. That is culture. One man is sitting in one place earning daily one lakhs of rupees.

Śyāmasundara: So big industrialists and field workers are two different species of men.

Prabhupāda: Not species, class. Jāti.

Śyāmasundara: Jāti. So when you say 400,000 species of human life…

Prabhupāda: It is difference of culture.

Śyāmasundara: It's different from what we think of as species.

Prabhupāda: Culture.

Devotee: It's not species in the bodily…

Karandhara: So the angle of vision is not from the bodily, it's from the closeness of the soul to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as far as they're able…

Prabhupāda: Unless you accept soul and consciousness, there cannot be question of culture.

Śyāmasundara: But when the scientists say "species," they mean different types of bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say 400,000 different forms of body, so human body, just like Negroes, they are also human beings, and you are also human beings. So this, scientists will say they are all one species, human being. But we say that Negro culture and the Āryan culture is different.

Śyāmasundara: They also say their bodies are different, Negroid bodies or Caucasian bodies, or Oriental bodies…

Prabhupāda: Then you can say species. Species and the different bodies.

Śyāmasundara: Species means different bodies. too

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: So the consciousness, the body, or my form, it's pertaining to my consciousness, the development of my consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You and your brother may be of the same type of body; there may not be a different, same type of consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: But you just said, for instance, the industrialist and farmers are two different species of men, but there could be a Negro industrialist…

Prabhupāda: I already said that. Why don't you listen? Species, definition of the scientists is different from ours. We say class.

Śyāmasundara: I'm trying to understand, because you said class but then you also said bodies. Negro bodies are different from white Caucasian bodies.

Prabhupāda: Maybe difference of bodies. But that does not…; therefore our classification on the basis of soul. The soul is equal. In spite of different types of body, the soul is one. There is no change of the soul. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that he does not see the species or the class or definition. He sees one: paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Paṇḍita, one who sees to the (indistinct), the soul, he does not find any difference of these species or (indistinct). This is our point.

Karandhara: So Darwin and similar material scientists, they have no information of the soul, but yet they're…

Prabhupāda: There they're missing the whole point.

Karandhara: But they're trying to find out information for themselves, and for others around them, but not knowing who they are, they're drawing on a material platform which is infinite, or at least infinite as far as their capacity to understand. So not only will they never be able to understand the material, the construction of the material arrangement, but at ultimate issue it has no pertinence, anyway. It doesn't mean anything.

Śyāmasundara: No. It does mean something if you accept that forms are evolving from simple to complex. That means that we can expect in the future that mankind will even be of a more superior nature than they are now.

Prabhupāda: Forms are… One form is superior than the other form. (indistinct) you said.

Karandhara: That possibility is also there. We know that by performances of certain types of sacrifices you can become, and go to the demigod planet…

Prabhupāda: That difference is that one apartment is better than the other apartment. Material.

Śyāmasundara: They would say that from the lowest apartments we are evolving to the better apartments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So according to your position. Just like if you… There are different apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartment. But as you are fit to pay the rent or price, then you are allowed to enter in the apartment. The apartments are already there-first-class, second-class, third-class. They are not evolving.

Śyāmasundara: They say all living things on this earth are evolving in that way, from lower to higher. In the history of the earth…

Prabhupāda: That also may be accepted, because just like at certain period, people are constructing a certain type of apartment, next stage they construct a different type of apartment. That can be accepted. But the apartment itself is not evolving; the evolution is taking, of the apartment, on the desire of something else.

Śyāmasundara: On the desire of something else.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So just like…

Prabhupāda: That they do not know.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Just like…

Prabhupāda: They say simply the apartment is changing.

Śyāmasundara: Just like if it suddenly got cold, the spirit soul would desire to be warm so he would evolve a body with hair.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say. That is our…, according to the mentality at the time of death you get another apartment. But the apartment is already there.

Śyāmasundara: I see. So if conditions suddenly change…

Prabhupāda: Change of mind.

Śyāmasundara: …a new apartment would arrive on the scene because the…

Prabhupāda: Not will arrive, it is already there.

Karandhara: Simply awarded.

Prabhupāda: It is already there.

Karandhara: The material nature has it in its closet…

Prabhupāda: Yes. "If you want this, come on, here."

Karandhara: …that, that dress…

Prabhupāda: "If you want this, come on here." It is already there.

Śyāmasundara: And then all the others will die out and that new one will begin, because the…

Prabhupāda: Everyone will die. Everyone will die means change his apartment. Now at the time of changing apartments… Suppose I am here, I have to change another, so I can select my apartment, what kind of apartment I shall have. But that apartment is already there. I'll have to simply make arrangement, that's all. It is not that I am creating that apartment.

Śyāmasundara: The elements, material elements, ingredients are already there.

Prabhupāda: Already there.

Karandhara: The possibilities are unlimited so it's not possible to make such a close…

Prabhupāda: And that apartment is fixed up 8,400,000. Now you can enter into any apartment. Or it is to be ascertained that you cannot think beyond this. Just like a hotel owner, he has got different types of apartments, and he knows the customer cannot think beyond it. So any customer wants, "I'll give this apartment." So by nature's way there are 8,400,000's of apartments. You simply change according to your mentality: "I want this," "All right. Come on."

Karandhara: There's a range. To go back to the…

Prabhupāda: It is, apartment is not evolving. I am evolving in this sense that I am changing one apartment to a better apartment. The better apartment is already there.

Śyāmasundara: To go back to this survival of the fittest theory, supposing we are all here and the water comes, like you said. Supposing one of these persons in Los Angeles has the ability to breathe in water, somehow or other he can breathe under water…

Prabhupāda: So we have no objection.

Śyāmasundara: So he survives; everyone else…

Prabhupāda: He survives means… He survives means that even if he's dead, that does not mean that the species is dead. There is another human being in another part of the world.

Śyāmasundara: I accept that, but I mean I want to…

Prabhupāda: So you say that because he does not survive, the whole species is extinct.

Śyāmasundara: No. But he survives…, one man survives because he is able to breathe in the water.

Karandhara: But how is he able to breathe in the water?

Śyāmasundara: Because he's adapted, he's mutated somehow.

Karandhara: But what has been that selective principle that he's adapted?

Śyāmasundara: According to you, you say it's his desire.

Karandhara: But the selective, active principle…

Prabhupāda: But the fact is that you do not find anyone that one can breathe within the water.

Śyāmasundara: No. That's only an example.

Prabhupāda: But you should give example which is proper.

Śyāmasundara: All right. There is a fish called a lungfish, which… Most fish have gills, they breathe underwater with their gills, they extract oxygen from water. But there's one fish in Africa that has developed lungs, so that, because it lives in an area where the water sometimes goes away, so it must be able to breathe oxygen from the air. So they say out of millions of fish in that water, one happened to have a pair of lungs, so he survived.

Prabhupāda: So we say that means he was already existing. We say there are 900,000 of species of fishes. He may be one of them, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: So the selective principle is there, but all species are already there.

Prabhupāda: Already there, existing.

Karandhara: The selection will simply be dictated by… The so-called observance of selection is just the circumstance. The water's going away, so…

Prabhupāda: The selection of the species of life. I can select. From fish, I can become man; from man I can become fish.

Śyāmasundara: So that fish desired to survive in that condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: I see.

Prabhupāda: Therefore there is a greater law. Just like the hotel people, he has got experience. The customers come and they want this sort of facilities. So he has made all the facilities here to receive all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God's creation. He knows how much a living entity can think of, so He has made all these species. If he thinks like this, "Come on, here," nature will, "Yes." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Nature is offering facility, "Yes, come on." God, Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā within the heart, He knows, He wants this. He wants this, immediately nature, "Give him this apartment," and nature offers, "Yes. Come on. Here is apartment." This is real explanation.

Śyāmasundara: So I understand that, and I'll accept that, but the one thing I'm still puzzled on is that there's no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms…

Prabhupāda: Why you are taking geological evidence as final? Why you are taking that? That is final?

Śyāmasundara: But it's logical…

Prabhupāda: What logic? Science is progressing. You cannot say that this is final.

Karandhara: Scientists couldn't deny; they could just say that we haven't found any evidence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But until there's something that disproves it to me, then I must accept it, because it…, because it's logical.

Karandhara: But that's a false platform. I'll conclude on the basis of my limited knowledge because I don't have the perfect knowledge. That's an abortion of the whole scientific…

Śyāmasundara: Yes. All right. You can say that I've never seen a purple man, so there must be no such thing as a purple man. You can say that, but as far as I can operate within my practicality, there are no purple men. I've never seen one; no one has ever seen purple men. So isn't this logical?

Prabhupāda: Purple men?

Śyāmasundara: I'm just using it as an example.

Prabhupāda: What is that purple men? But you have not also seen, why you are speaking like that?

Śyāmasundara: I'm using it as an example of an exception.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What, you are scientist, what you have never seen, why you are thinking of like that? That is my point.

Śyāmasundara: I'm using it as an example of an exception…

Prabhupāda: Why example? Why you give a fictitious example which you have no experience?

Śyāmasundara: All right. So let's say no one has ever seen a…

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. You cannot say which you have never seen, at least. Because yours is experimental, I may say, but you at least, cannot say like that.

Śyāmasundara: I have excavated in all parts of the world, and every time I go to the…

Prabhupāda: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world. That is another nonsense. You have not done this.

Śyāmasundara: Well, on seven continents I have excavated…

Prabhupāda: But that seven continents is not the whole world. That is our charge. That you are claiming that you have excavated all. We say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. (indistinct) they say the same (indistinct), Dr. Frog. Dr. Frog is limited within the three-feet well. If he says "I have seen everything," that is not acceptable.

Śyāmasundara: But at least in thousands of places they have bored into the earth or dug into the earth, and they've found…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thousands of places is not this finishing, the whole planet.

Karandhara: They're always coming up with something new. They're having to revise their theory. Just like that pamphlet. They had to revise the whole theory about Carbon 14 because they found a new factor in the deterioration in the element which they never before considered…

Prabhupāda: This experimental knowledge is always imperfect. Because they are experimenting with imperfect senses, therefore they must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Let us say that the remains of every animal, every living entity that has ever been found in the ground…

Prabhupāda: That is also a limited space. You cannot say you have excavated a portion of the earth and that is all. You cannot say.

Śyāmasundara: So far, anyway.

Prabhupāda: So far means that is not all. That is, so far, as soon as it is so far, that is not all.

Śyāmasundara: But, so surely we must be practical and say that every…

Prabhupāda: Practical means…

Karandhara: We can only operate on things that we have…

Prabhupāda: Practical means which is beyond your knowledge, beyond your capacity, that is impractical. So nothing is practical.

Śyāmasundara: How can I theorize there were other or higher forms…

Prabhupāda: You theorize partially, as far as. That is not perfect(?).

Śyāmasundara: If I accept your knowledge, how can I theorize that there were higher forms of life millions of years ago if I have never found any evidence and I have searched…

Prabhupāda: This is the evidence. This is the evidence. You have to see through the evidence, because there are, in the evolution there are so many species of life, say 8,400,000, they are all existing now. They are all existing now. Therefore why should I conclude that millions of years they did not exist?

Śyāmasundara: You say they are all existing now, but I don't see the dinosaur. There are no dinosaurs on this planet.

Prabhupāda: That is not the denied. Dinosaur you may not have seen, it may be existing some other… Neither I have seen the 8,400,000 different species of, different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. Your source of knowledge is different. You are experimenter with imperfect senses. I am taking from the perfect who has seen, who knows things. Therefore my knowledge is perfect. Just the same example: I am receiving knowledge from my mother, "Here is your father," and you are trying to search out where is your father. You don't go to the mother, but you are searching out. So therefore, however you may search, your knowledge always will be imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of living entities on this planet.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because our Vedic information is that the first creation is the most intellect, that is the most intellectual personality within this universe, Brahmā. So how we can say…, how we can accept your theory that intellect develops? We are receiving Vedic knowledge from Brahmā, so perfect. So that is the evidence. The first creature was so perfect.

Karandhara: You are accepting authority anyway. We are accepting Darwin's authority that he went to these islands and found these animals. How do we know he went to the islands and found the animals?

Śyāmasundara: Because you can go there now and find them; they are still there.

Karandhara: But you have to go there to make, to make your point and deduct it. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: …when it will be cause of all his existence, survival for the fittest, but he is not going into the, who posed this, how it has been done, how it is going to that theory, so his theories are not complete.

Prabhupāda: His theory, it is not science. It is suggestion, guess.

Śyāmasundara: They call it "doctrine of natural selection," not theory.

Prabhupāda: Doctrine. So doctrine, doctrine should be fact, but Darwin's theory, so far… It is called Darwin's theory…

Śyāmasundara: It's not called theory, it's doctrine. It should be doctrine.

Karandhara: What they mean by doctrine is that they can't agree on it and say it's fact. That there's so many short-comings that they will call it a doctrine but they won't call it fact. That's practically the whole story in scientific research: the real scientists, they never call anything a solid fact; it's always a theory or a doctrine because they never find a perfect enough conclusion which takes into account everything and perfectly reconciles…

Prabhupāda: What is that uncertainty? What do you call that?

Śyāmasundara: It's called Theory of Uncertainty. Heisenberg's Theory of Uncertainty.

Prabhupāda: That is also theory.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That has to do with atomic particles.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Accepting the (indistinct), early in 1900 when they find out the smallest particle in the atom, it was a theory; it was accepted for about ten, twenty years.

Śyāmasundara: That was long before, in Greek times, Democritus.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the real theory started by Darwin, that was accepted for several years, but later on, with new advancement, his theory changed. His theory became disproved, that "What you are saying, it is not right, it is not final." So theories can change. So same thing, Darwin's theory is also changing.

Śyāmasundara: But his impact upon the thinking of the world so completely changed the whole conception of…

Prabhupāda: That is now changing again. So what is the use of that, such change?

Śyāmasundara: Well, you have to investigate, because he is important for our…

Prabhupāda: No. That's all right. We will investigate; and a theory which changes, it will change, that's all. It is not a fact. The sun rising is a fact. It cannot change.

Śyāmasundara: Still, you say if there were high forms of, say Brahmā, in Brahmā's time or millions of years ago, there were also other high animals besides men?

Prabhupāda: All I say is that all kinds of different classes of forms were existing, since the creation.

Śyāmasundara: On this planet there were higher forms?

Prabhupāda: Why are you taking this planet? We are talking of the whole creation. In the creation everything is there.

Śyāmasundara: If you expect me to understand this, I have to see it on this planet.

Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge.

Karandhara: Possibly there were and possibly there weren't.

Śyāmasundara: You tell me that Rāma and some other higher creatures lived on this planet so many millions of years ago, so I can expect some day to find evidence of that?

Prabhupāda: The evidence is the authority, Vedic literature.

Karandhara: What other authority will you accept? If you dig up a bone and make a test with your own senses and accept that as an authority…

Prabhupāda: Bone authority. So you will be satisfied with your own authority. We have got our different… If you don't accept my authority, then I don't accept your authority.

Śyāmasundara: It would just seem if there were bones surviving for millions of years, why not cities, why not chariots, why not…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. During Rāmacandra's time there were chariots. Everything was there.

Karandhara: They have found pieces of chariots and pieces of cities.

Śyāmasundara: Not millions of years ago.

Karandhara: How do they know it's not millions of years ago? What is their test for proving?

Prabhupāda: That millions, that is also bogus. You see? In the human history there is no history more than three thousand years. They are talking of millions of years. Why?

Śyāmasundara: You are a scientist. What other ways do they date geological findings? How do they date them?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now it is Carbon 14 is the most reliable technique.

Śyāmasundara: Before they discovered that, how did they do it? They knew the Pleistocene, the Iocene, all these different ages. How did they date them?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I do know how….

Karandhara: They all remain their own postulation according to their own sense impressions, and because the initial format is imperfect, the conclusion has to be imperfect. So knowledge always remains fallible and mutable, whatever basis they put it on. It is what they have derived out of their own sense impressions, imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, admitted, but I say that…

Karandhara: So dealing on a whole range of imperfection and deduction…

Śyāmasundara: Anyone can argue on that level and say anything, but what I want to know are the facts.

Karandhara: The facts are there, but you can accept the facts as Darwin presents them or as the Vedas present them or as anyone presents them.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: These are all controlled by the force of nature. For example, we do not find evidence, scientific evidence, so-called they've got from eight hundred thousand years ago. That does not mean anything. It is all subject to the course of nature. So maybe it just changed with the earth turning. (indistinct) That does not mean that it did not exist.

Śyāmasundara: If I'm a Darwinist; I'm still not convinced. Because you still haven't proven to me that the layers of earth that are far, far below are not millions of years old. You say that they may be newly formed, but…

Karandhara: They haven't proven that they are millions of years old.

Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not a geologist…

Prabhupāda: My charge is that you cannot give history of human society more than three thousand years; how you speak of millions of years? That is my charge.

Śyāmasundara: Written history…

Prabhupāda: No. Suppose a child says that "Millions of years ago it happened like this," but I will say (to) the child, "You were born three years ago. How you speak of millions of years?" That is my charge.

Śyāmasundara: I don't know how geologists date earth layers…

Prabhupāda: They bluff everything.

Śyāmasundara: But even if, let's say the deepest layer is only five hundred years old, but still the ones on top are newer. So in the lowest layer, there are no chariots, cities…

Prabhupāda: We can rather believe the Bhagavad-gītā, who gives a description of one, twelve hours duration of life, millions of years. So we can believe such authority. You can actually gain…

Śyāmasundara: Just like when you are dreaming, you may think it's millions of years, and it's only five minutes. You wake up and you've only been asleep five minutes. even though it seems like millions of years.

Prabhupāda: And actually, according to modern scientists, the law of relativity, so everyone speaks with his relative knowledge. It is not perfect. Everyone speaks to his relative knowledge, that's all. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity.

Śyāmasundara: There is also some scientific evidence that where there is land now, it was once water, and where there is water now, it was once land. That the oceans reversed…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we accept.

Śyāmasundara: …so it's quite possible that if there were great civilizations existing, that they are all, all remains are swallowed. There's no trace.

Prabhupāda: That is, everyday you see. One day we walk on the beaches, and the next day it is covered with water. That is not very difficult to understand. But when the covered with water portion you cannot experiment, how you can say what is there within? Has Darwin gone within the sea, layers, studied the bottom of the sea?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Where it has become land. And you find that there are sea shells, sea animals, in the layer, in the next layer up more complex forms, in the next layer more complex forms…

Prabhupāda: I mean to say, but there is already sea. Has he gone down the sea and excavated the level of the sea, gone down?

Karandhara: Even if they discount…

Prabhupāda: That you do not know. That you do not know. Not that he knows. Because we cannot accept that. Nobody has said that they have excavated down the bottom of the sea. But you also said that bottom may be opened at one, some time. So unless it is opened, your experiment is insufficient.

Karandhara: Even if you were to grant that the first life forms on this planet were simple one-celled life, that does not mean that more complex life did not begin earlier on other planets. The theory is not aborted. It may be you can discount the possibility of…

Prabhupāda: The whole thing is that Dr. Frog, famous story. He comes to this country, Dr. Frog's understanding. He has studied the three-feet-wide well, and he says he is satisfied with that. He has nothing to do with the Atlantic Ocean. But Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, and that well is also a reservoir of water. But (there is a) vast difference. So we take knowledge of who has created Atlantic Ocean. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. What do you say?

Śyāmasundara: I just want to try to cover this from every angle so that Darwinists will not be able to argue. Today I'd like to find out how they date earth layers, how geologists find…

Prabhupāda: No. Your geologists have given, "It may be millions of years ago." They say like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They estimate.

Prabhupāda: Estimate.

Śyāmasundara: They estimate, but there must be some basis for their estimation.

Karandhara: They don't even agree amongst one another. They argue. I attended college with scientists, and they argue amongst one another. They don't agree on their own scientific evidence.

Śyāmasundara: But at least they all agree that there is several million years old, many millions of years old, at least.

Karandhara: No. Not necessarily.

Śyāmasundara: The Pleistocene two hundred million years…

Karandhara: Just an assembly of fools. You can get all the fools to agree on the same thing. It doesn't make anyone…

Śyāmasundara: Well I still want to find out how they…

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa nāma koro bhai ar sab niche, parai gab pap nahi yoni ache piche (?). Our real problem is birth, death. All these scientist, they could not solve any of these problems, neither they could answer. Maybe Darwin's cam(?) has died. They could not stop death. Kata choto dayana na mari meri jao (?).

Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow we can discuss ethical evolution, how ethics evolved. That is also part of his doctrine.

Prabhupāda: Ethic morality?

Śyāmasundara: How morality is also a product of evolution.

Prabhupāda: We change morality within six months. The most immoral man, you can make the most moral man within six months. This is practically happening.

Śyāmasundara: It also helps the fittest to survive.

Prabhupāda: You may not be fit, but we can make you fit.

Śyāmasundara: That's what I mean. If you become moral you become fittest to survive. That is also his theory, doctrine.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we can do within six months.

Śyāmasundara: He says that at some point a man who had developed sympathy for others, he was able to survive because he would cooperate with them to survive when others were killing each other, like that. So gradually morality also evolved. Tomorrow maybe we should finish Darwin. [break]

Prabhupāda: An animal is put in some certain atmosphere, he adjusts. But there are different types animals. Just like we see while walking (in) severe cold, we try to adjust by covering. Others, the birds, the skylark, the so on, they do not adjust.

Śyāmasundara: His finding is that new types of species will come out, which will be better adapted. The swans, if it becomes too cold, they will die.

Prabhupāda: They are better than us, than human being?

Atreya Ṛṣi: What the theory is Prabhupāda is that, for example, if there are many, many swans living in one place, those who cannot adjust will be extinct after many, many years, and those who can adjust will live. In effect, what he tried to prove was that Kṛṣṇa's law, nature's law, is perfect. But he was missing Kṛṣṇa. In other words, what the proof is very scientific, but it is lacking.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is adding zero, without one.

Atreya Ṛṣi: That's right, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the value remains zero. He couldn't find the one, so that the value of the zeroes at once increases.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But there are some great scientists like Newton who studied many, many, many years and made many, many theories and then they gave it up when they realized that they couldn't go further. Newton, at a very early age, like forty-three I think, went to a monastery.

Śyāmasundara: We discussed Newton's philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Sir Isaac Newton?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Long ago, in Africa.

Prabhupāda: No, he was Englishman.

Śyāmasundara: No, but in Africa we discussed his philosophy.

Prabhupāda: He died at the age of twenty-three. His picture is there in Westminster Abbey.

Śyāmasundara: His tomb, his grave. He is buried there.

Prabhupāda: Westminster Abbey has become now a museum.

Śyāmasundara: Graveyard and museum.

Prabhupāda: People go to see, tourist.

Śyāmasundara: I think it cost us sixteen shillings for us to see. Remember we saw King (indistinct). So they're making some money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. For some period, Elizabeth to Queen Victoria, the English nation advanced in so many ways. They wanted to record it that they are the greatest nation in the world. But the basic principle was how to get money from outside in London. That was the basic thing. By advertising there… Actually by nature they are very impoverished. They have no sufficient food, even; their nature. And they wanted to be greatest nation. By nature they are not very much favored. Now they are coming again in the lap of nature.

Śyāmasundara: Darwin's theory about them would be that because their environment was not very suitable for farming or mining, no natural resources, therefore their brains developed and they were able to survive.

Prabhupāda: That we accept. That we accept, that we have to adjust things according to circumstances. That is acceptable. But finally, if God does not approve of it, it does not happen. Pratividhi. Pratividhi, counteraction. Tavat tanu-bhrtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. Pratividhi. We make counteractivities for adjusting things, but unless it is approved by the Supreme Lord, that adjustment also will not be very much helpful. Bālasya neha pitarau nṛsiṁha. Just like a small child, the nature's way is the parent has got affection to take care. At that time, if the parents do not take care, the child cannot live. But the parents' taking care is not all. If the child is condemned by the Supreme Lord, in spite of the parents taking care, it will not be happy, or it will not exist. Parents' care is natural. Generally it so happens by the parents' care the child is happy, but in spite of parents' care the child is unhappy, then you have to go to the Lord. Is it not? Just like when a man is diseased, the counteraction is physician, medicine. Generally it is expected by attendance of good physician or using good medicine, diet, the patient becomes cured. But it is also seen that in spite of all careful attention, scientific medicine, he dies. Then what is that?

Śyāmasundara: Darwin would say he wasn't well enough equipped to survive.

Prabhupāda: That is the deficiency, that you will not be well equipped if Kṛṣṇa doesn't wish you to survive. That means you will not be able to counteract with all the counteractions. You cannot.

Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, Prabhupāda, nature's arrangements, you are saying is Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. In other words, when Kṛṣṇa wishes something it happens in a natural way.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Not in an unnatural way, but in a natural way. But it is still Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all just like a child is protected by the parents, that is also natural. But in spite of his taking care, the child dies, suffers, that is also natural.

Śyāmasundara: Just like some children are born with blood disease or some incurable disease; the parents take all care, but they still have to die young.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So then it is to be understood that different natural laws are working, and they are working under one controller, and that is God. Just like we are taking so many services from this electricity current, but all this electricity current are working under one leader in the powerhouse, the resident engineer. From him, the original electricity current is coming, is generated. And we are utilizing the same current in different varieties, purposes. So then, just like electric current, the same electric current working in this machine, in a way; another machine another way. It may be contradiction, but the power is the same. According to the machine, the same example: one machine is cooler, one machine is heater, although the current is the same. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Everywhere God's energy is working as if natural.

Śyāmasundara: Just like a tiger's body and a deer's body-the tiger kills the deer, but the same current is working in both. One survives, one does not survive.

Prabhupāda: Nobody will survive. (laughter) This is called karma. This is activity. The body is the field of activity. You are given license to act with this body for some time. That's all. No question of survival. Nobody will survive. You can act for some time.

Śyāmasundara: By survival he means species. The species will survive.

Prabhupāda: Any species. Nobody will survive. That is also false theory. Nobody will survive. Where is the species that is surviving?

Śyāmasundara: Just like horses. Horses, they have found in the fossils and millions of years ago, they say millions of years ago horses were there. Slightly different forms, but still they were horses.

Prabhupāda: So different forms, just like human beings, formerly they were very tall, and they are reducing their stature, and at the end of Kali-yuga they will be stature like this. So this is not change of the species. This is changing, just like your father is taller than you, is he not? Is he not taller?

Śyāmasundara: No. I'm taller than he is. But they say because our generation got better foodstuffs than our parents.

Prabhupāda: So therefore, according to circumstances, the stature is changing. It is not the species. It is the same human, but formerly the human being was taller, stouter; now they are reducing in strength, in stature, in memory, in duration of life, span of life, in mercy. That is stated in Bhāgavatam. They do not change every species.

Atreya Ṛṣi: This changing of human size also may be a scientific thing, scientifically because of our conditions, because of our state of consciousness and because of the conditions…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Under certain conditions, changing.

Atreya Ṛṣi: And we will be changing, and this change will… [break]

Śyāmasundara: …research. They found that atomic particles vibrate at a certain frequency, a certain rate of vibration, and that elements such as lead, iron, all the different chemical elements, disintegrate gradually. The atomic particles vibrate out of the element and change the structure of the element gradually, and this is a constant-what they call-life of the element, and the constant number of years before it disintegrates into some other element. So this life they have measured, and they have a table or a chart, and by this half-life formula they can determine how old a rock is by how quickly the isotopes are disintegrating. So according to their calculation, the layers of the earth go down for many millions of years; and in those lower layers, millions of years old, there is either no form of life or very, very simple forms of life only. There is no evidence of any complex forms.

Prabhupāda: Bolo… (Bengali-to Svarūpa Dāmodara)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The age of the rocks, by determining by scientific techniques, find how old the rock (indistinct) is, and how correct it is. So I asked (indistinct) of this department, Professor Roland, and he told me that (indistinct) such and such, I mean the rocks coming from the moon, brought by astronauts. They calculate that by this (indistinct) technique, they find that they are about three to fourteen million years old, these rocks from the moon, the moon samples. But that does not give the real age of the rocks. He told me that what you call the age means how long that crystal… For example they tried to find out the crystals like iridium and strontium crystals, that the method that they use is strontium iridium technique and so he told me that the age, this age, about three times three billion years old, that means that crystal containing that iridium model has crystallized for that long year, that gives the age. They do not know how long it has been there

Śyāmasundara: The rock is at least three billion years; maybe it's older.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, maybe older, but it does not give the exact age. We do not know.

Śyāmasundara: But the point is that they have determined that there are rock structures in the earth very, very, very, very old and that these contain no evidence of any complex forms of life. So that if there is a statement that there were higher forms of life millions of years ago existing on this planet, there has been no evidence ever found of that.

Prabhupāda: So why they're trying to find out evidence from the rocks, not from any other source?

Śyāmasundara: Well as civilizations come and go, they leave remains, evidence behind of their…

Prabhupāda: "Civilization goes" means? Where goes?

Śyāmasundara: Well, if people come and they…

Prabhupāda: Do they come, and they are still living? They are still there? Just like my great-grand…, great-grandfather was living. So I am his descendant.

Śyāmasundara: But where is he?

Prabhupāda: Where is he? You want to see him? Therefore you (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No. I want to find his remains.

Prabhupāda: You want to see my great-great-great-great-grandfather?

Śyāmasundara: But he must have left some remains.

Prabhupāda: I am the remaining. I am his descendant.

Śyāmasundara: But he made no tools, or he had no house?

Prabhupāda: Who said? You said. You said that there may not, but because my fore… I can make tools; naturally, my grandfather, he can make too. And what is there making tools?

Śyāmasundara: No. But why weren't there any tools left behind for us to find, remnants?

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Why no remains of tools or other evidence of other men.

Prabhupāda: What is the use of tools? Tools are used for the carpenters, and we are not carpenters.

Śyāmasundara: But if there were high forms of men living…

Prabhupāda: Then he's (indistinct) with the carpenters, not the philosophers.

Śyāmasundara: …they must have lived in cities.

Prabhupāda: My forefathers were philosophers. They did not require any tools.

Śyāmasundara: They required no houses?

Prabhupāda: No. Even they required, they called some carpenter and they did it.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. My point is that there…

Prabhupāda:Because there is no tools, therefore there is no civilization?

Śyāmasundara: But tools, not… Houses or anything that men have to use, there should be some remains left behind when their civilization…

Prabhupāda: What is remains? Remains means just like the coal, that is the remains.

Śyāmasundara: Coal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Coal is the remains of trees, plants…

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the remains.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coal, oil, petroleum.

Śyāmasundara: That means there was some evidence that there were… If we look in coal beds we find remains of trees that were very simple, no complex forms of trees. Now trees are much more complex.

Prabhupāda: Complex or simple, it doesn't matter. There were trees.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, the coal doesn't say whether the tree was complex or not.

Śyāmasundara: No, but they find impressions from leaves and the carboniferous age, they find that the remains of trees, plants, twigs, all very simple forms like our (indistinct). Today they're more…

Prabhupāda: Our evidence is intelligence, not with tools and (indistinct). Our evidence is intelligence. We find, we get Vedic information by disciplic succession-highly intelligent. So that is our evidence. Not the tools.

Śyāmasundara: The Scripture. The evidence which is written and spoken in…

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is coming by śruti, by hearing. Just like Vyāsadeva heard from Nārada, Nārada heard from Brahmā, millions and millions of years ago. If you take, according to our calculation, Brahmā's age, Brahmā's one day we cannot calculate. It is now some, so many millions of years past, and still it is not even Brahmā's one day. So many millions of years. Because in Brahmā's one day seventy-two…, fourteen, fourteen Manus come and go. And each Manu's age is seventy-two millennium. One millennium means 4,300,000's of years. So such seventy-two millennium makes complete one Manu's life, and there are fourteen Manus in Brahmā's one day. So millions and trillions and billions of years, that is not very astonishing to us, because it is not even one day of Brahmā. That Brahmā was born, and intelligent philosophy is still existing from the date of Brahmā's birth. Brahmā was first educated by God. That is our calculation. So we get in the Vedas such intelligent information; therefore we understand that our forefather was very, very learned(?).

Śyāmasundara: For instance, the Sanskrit language was so perfect…

Prabhupāda: Yes, Sanskrit language, everything, wonderful. So we are not carpenters, that we have to find out tools. We are brāhmaṇas.

Śyāmasundara: So if the earth is so old, for instance, it could have undergone many transformations…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. After one day of Brahmā there is devastation. So Brahmā lives for one hundred years according to his calculation. So each day there is devastation. So so many devastation passes in one month of Brahmā, then such twelve months makes one year, and such hundred years will be. So there is no calculation of devastation, how many devastations. In Brahmā's one day it is calculated 5,400 Manus are born in one month of Brahmā. So our calculation is like that. We are not very much amazed of hearing millions and trillions. It is nothing. In our historical reference is billions and trillions of years. They are nothing.

Śyāmasundara: So even though several million years ago they find no evidence in the rocks…

Prabhupāda: That does not mean that there is no civilization. That is their imperfect knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, our so-called modern scientific stories, knowledge is so empiric it's now (indistinct) on complete proof. It is always stands to have objectionable work, sides; so it is not perfect at all. Just like from Śrīla Prabhupāda's book on the Easy Journey to Other Planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda mentioned the discovery of the anti-proton, by the scientists who got the Nobel Prizes in 1959, and Prabhupāda gives all information from Bhagavad-gītā, anything, is already there; Prabhupāda has said it. They say anti-proton… They just discovered the anti-proton, but they still think it is some matter, that is not…, they say anti-proton but still they think that it is connected with matter. But Prabhupāda said it is not matter, it is spirit. Differentiation between matter and anti-matter. Matter is material thing; anti-matter is spirit or (indistinct). So Prabhupāda comments so nicely about the so-called modern scientists to do further research on this concept of anti-matter. Perhaps they will come to an understanding about the spirit, they come to a point. Our knowledge is what you call a modern scientific findings or evidences always subject to changes also…

Prabhupāda: This must be changing because the instruments by which we acquire knowledge, they are imperfect. So by our so-called research and sensuous acceptance of knowledge, that is never perfect. It cannot be perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Just like they say that the rate of disintegration of the atomic particles of an element is constant. But it may not be constant; perhaps in earlier times it was faster or slower, there are so many possibilities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow the system of (sic:) ascending knowledge, knowledge received from higher authorities, they are not perfect. They cannot have any perfect knowledge, either research work with the blunt imperfect senses. They will not… So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect-dream. And when Kṛṣṇa says that "I enter into the universes," viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. Now the weightlessness of the planets, the scientists describe in so many ways, but that is not very perfect. What is the cause of weightlessness? I have, what is called, (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: That because of the orbits, different orbits of the planets cause weightlessness.

Karandhara: Centrifugal force.

Prabhupāda: Centrifugal.

Śyāmasundara: When planets go around the sun they go in such a speed, that there is no mass.

Prabhupāda: So, but who has set on the speed? How the speed is going on? That is not explained. But we have got our explanation. Kṛṣṇa says that "I enter into each and every universe and planet, and I keep them floating." That is understandable. Just like we have, in our childhood we used to, I mean to say, fly paper balloon by forcing into it some camphor smoke. Did you do it? We did this in our childhood. Such a big paper balloon, and then you take camphor, so much, and we struck up and burn it, and camphor is burning, it is producing too much-what is called-black smoke; and it becomes big, big smoke, it goes, very nice. So if the camphor smoke entered into the paper balloon can fly it, then God cannot fly all the universes by entering into it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another example is lot of these astronauts going to the moon, and sometimes they are afraid, they call the transition from the earth's gravitational force and the moon's gravitational force, there is a layer, this transition from one to another it is very critical. So they said that when the, these rockets or these Apollo instruments either go up or go down, they have to go to a certain angle, very specific, and if the angle is slightly changed, so they'll be either circulating the moon or either they'll be circulating the earth. They'll never be able to come down or go up, but they'll be floating like… There's no control.

Prabhupāda: Without any control.

Śyāmasundara: Because where the two gravitational pulls meet, there is a certain force. If you don't pass through it at the right angle, then you are caught in it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If you are not going right in the angle, say for example he has to go…, he's coming down so he has to go at 45-degree angles, slanting; he has to go 45-degree angle, but it changed by mistake, say 47 degree angles, then it will never come down. He'll be just circulating around, floating.

Prabhupāda: So, in the (indistinct) stage, we are dependent on the laws of nature, and we still, we are declaring we are free from any control. We are making our own proposition and theories.

Karandhara: They're always saying their conquest over nature.

Prabhupāda: But where is the conquest of nature? Now if there is a mistake of two degrees, you have to go round forever. What is the independence? Vikathante. The exact word used in this connection in the Bhāgavata, that these people talks all nonsense, vikatha. Under the influence of illusory energy they have become mad, and they are talking all nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: I didn't know we were going to have a class today, but for the next class I wanted to read that article about heredity, genetics, how they think that they might be able to reproduce life in the future.

Prabhupāda: Again "in future."

Śyāmasundara: I have that article, I want to read it and study it first. I wasn't prepared for today.

Prabhupāda: The future… Any fool can say "In future I shall prove." Then what is the difference between scientists and the fool? "Trust no future, however pleasant."

Śyāmasundara: But Darwin is the one who introduced this whole concept that we are evolving towards something better.

Prabhupāda: That we accept. That we accept. Just like we are now in human form of life. Now we can go, can make our position better. Either we go in so many higher planetary systems or we go to Vaikuṇṭha.

Śyāmasundara: In terms of species actually living on this planet, he thinks that we have come up from apes, now we may go up to higher forms of men or species.

Prabhupāda: That is already… The apes are already there. You are also there.

Karandhara: Their idea is that if they can sufficiently understand this process of evolution and know its principles then they can control it, they can manipulate it to their own ends.

Prabhupāda: There is information.

Karandhara: They can produce their own eternal superhuman being. They know how…

Prabhupāda: Superhuman… Kṛṣṇa conscious people, they are superhuman being. They are (indistinct).

Karandhara: They had a big meeting recently in Europe of the foremost scientists, chemists, physicists and researchers, and they predicted that by the year 2050, the scientists will be able to make the superhuman eternal human being. Then they started asking themselves, "Well, who will decide? Who will play God? If we can make an eternal person or manipulate, who will decide?" What if they make a hundred Hitlers or some demoniac scientists who knows how to do this makes a hundred Hitlers. So even if their whole thing is (indistinct), they'll misuse whatever power they acquire by understanding the laws of nature. They've misused the atomic energy.

Prabhupāda: They can produce for human being, many (indistinct)?

Śyāmasundara: They call it the genetical xerox machine.

Karandhara: They can analyze someone's genes. Say they take my genes and analyze their chemical structure. They can reproduce that structure and make a hundred me's, just like me-the same brain, the same body, the same mentality, everything.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But who made you? Just like I have written one letter; you can make a hundred copies. But I have written the letter. Similarly, there may be hundreds of copies of your personality, but who made you?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) about the genetic code (indistinct) concerned persons taking our material (indistinct) some people are more intelligent than others, like scientists, Einstein said he had a different brain than other people.

Prabhupāda: Our explanation is that from previous life he is modeled. That is coming. It's continuation.

Śyāmasundara: So Darwin said that also, that one's superior traits are passed on to his children, like that. And then the superior traits survive over the inferior traits, and so on.

Prabhupāda: And where he goes? After transferring to the children, where Mr. Darwin goes?

Śyāmasundara: He disintegrates into matter.

Karandhara: It's total materialism because there's no spirit, just a combination of material elements.

Prabhupāda: Then if you are going again to be mixed with the elements, then why you are bothering your head about your children?

Śyāmasundara: He's concerned on a social level…

Prabhupāda: In the beginning, in the beginning you are in the matter. By evolution you have come to, again you are going to the matter. So why you bother in the middle so much. After all, you are matter. In the beginning you are matter and at the end you're going to be matter.

Śyāmasundara: He's concerned that the society can be made better by this understanding.

Prabhupāda: So why do you concern with the society? You are going to be (indistinct). It may be better or no, but it doesn't matter.

Śyāmasundara: He had a vague idea that societies or species would evolve toward something better, so he wanted to help that evolution.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but not that Mr. Darwin's foolish theory that he is going to be matter. He'll remain spirit but another species of life, another form of life. That another form of life will decide whether you are degraded or elevated.

Śyāmasundara: Darwin passed on his traits to his son, Charles Darwin, and his son's great contribution to the world was that the moon was moving away from the earth at the rate of five inches per year. So what good is that knowledge?

Prabhupāda: What kind…, in what way you give such an evolution? It may be ten inches or five inches or (indistinct). That conclusion anyone can give. Any rascal can say anything, and what is the contribution? Just like modern day art. You just make your brush like this and it becomes art. You see?

Śyāmasundara: Relative values.

Prabhupāda: Relative values. Now you imagine what is there. This is the mentality.

Śyāmasundara: There's no absolute scale of value in the material world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're speculating that the genes of these supposedly very intelligent people…

Prabhupāda: The superhuman being is already there in what we call demigods. Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara, Indra, Candra, they are superhuman beings, already there. What he will make? Let him make one ant first of all. Let me see that you have made one ant; then talk of superhuman. You have not been able to create even an ant, so how do you dare to say superhuman. It is all foolishness.

Karandhara: According to modern information, man now is living longer, is more healthy and is more well off than ever before.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. I have seen my grandmother lived ninety-six years, but I don't expect I shall live ninety-six years. My father did not live more than eighty-one years; so gradually the span of life is decreasing. They are not healthy enough. Decreasing means they are not getting proper food or proper bodily comforts; therefore they're decreasing their life.

Śyāmasundara: Their statistics are so open to error there's no way they can say…

Karandhara: They baffle the population. Everyone believes "Now I'm living longer. I have more chances to live a healthy life than ever before." They think this is what this modern society gives him, a chance to live longer.

Śyāmasundara: By discovering new medicines and new techniques to improve our health.

Prabhupāda: So where is the medicine which stops disease? You are discovering medicine, and many new diseases are coming out, so where is the stopper?

Karandhara: That's supposed to come. That is the promise.

Prabhupāda: Promise, a fool can promise anything. And…

Śyāmasundara: And instead all they do is…

Prabhupāda: That is a different thing.

Śyāmasundara: …add more wars.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: President Nixon has made a promise that very shortly this cancer disease should be cured. So he has allotted a lot of money for the coming few years and he is giving to all scientists (indistinct). He is saying he is going to stop this death from cancer, but…

Prabhupāda: Suppose he stops death from cancer. Can he stop death at all?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not at all.

Prabhupāda: Well then? What is it? He'll direct some other disease come?

Śyāmasundara: If Darwin's theory is correct, some new form of cancer will evolve which will survive…

Prabhupāda: Why? Any disease will be (indistinct). You can check the disease. Therefore our conclusion is that however scientifically you advanced you make, you cannot stop birth, death, old age and disease. That is our conclusion. So why should we waste our time for that purpose? We are utilizing our time, and after giving up this body we may go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our business. But everyone has to give up his body. Mr. Darwin and his company will give up this body like cats and dog. We shall give up this body for higher elevation of life. Therefore our philosophy is better, far better than all these things.

Śyāmasundara: There's a corollary to his theory of evolution that our standards of morality have also evolved from primitive stages. For instance, in a group, within a group of apelike creatures who were normally fighting with each other for dominance, one may develop the quality of sympathy for someone else. So by that sympathy he cooperates with the other person and together they survive when the others die. So that evolution of sympathy, morality, love, compassion-the good qualities of the human being-have evolved due to necessity, evolution, survival of the fittest.

Karandhara: The thing is this whole perspective of evolution… There doesn't have to be a sequence, that one came before the other. They all were there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: Just like you take a ray of the sunshine that's in this room. It's come from the sun, but simultaneously it's occurring with the sun. It's not there as a sequential evolution of that particle…

Prabhupāda: The sunshine, sunshine… Just like sunshine. You can collect time according to the sunshine. The morning sun shining is called 6 a.m., and then 7 a.m., 8 a.m., 9 a.m., like that. The shine. But this 6 a.m. shining will be somewhere else also, although here it is 8 a.m.

Śyāmasundara: That's a relative measurement.

Prabhupāda: So the sunshine is existing always the same. It is relatively understood by others. Otherwise sun is fixed up in his position and is shining all over the world.

Śyāmasundara: The speed of light is constant also, it is said.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It does not change as it reaches. When it may reach, it is already there.

Śyāmasundara: It takes one particle of sunlight eight minutes to travel from the sun to here.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but the sun's…

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This constant can be taken (indistinct) astronomy (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Anyway, the sunbeam, the sunshine, is always (indistinct). How it is constantly coming? Just like heat and the fire. The heat is always coming out of the fire, always.

Karandhara: According to a point of observation, there may appear to be a sequence, or a beginning or an end or an evolution…

Śyāmasundara: If we look back-say our written history goes back three thousand years-if we look back within that span, according to Darwin, our levels of consciousness are getting increasingly higher.

Prabhupāda: No. We say lower. We say lower. Degraded.

Karandhara: They're basing their quality on whether there's a better level of consciousness and what is more (indistinct) sense gratification.

Śyāmasundara: Technical advancements, scientific. Actually, morality…

Prabhupāda: …is degrading.

Śyāmasundara: …hasn't evolved. The ancient Greeks had a much higher standard of morality than the British or Darwin's time.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) degrading (indistinct). We see every day, every moment.

Prabhupāda: So we have seen in our childhood, they're also. No voucher or receipt. I'll tell you one little story. My father was dealing in cloth. So supposing he has come, my customer, he wants so many things. So I haven't got stock all of these things, but I wrote down his order, that you are market broker, I say just get these things immediately from the market. You go to the particular person who has got the stock and you order him to my shop, "Such and such you send me." So you have ordered for say twenty, fifty men. So their men are coming with a load of cloth, and he'll simply ask the firm's name: "This is Rajaram (indistinct)?" And someone declares, "Yes, yes, yes." But no voucher. He simply asks whether this firm is Rajaram (indistinct), and somebody nods, "Yes, yes." So he drops the bundle of cloth. It may be five hundred, or thousand rupees' worth or more than that. So similarly, many porters drop, because I require so many things. Now, you are my broker, you come, you see the stack of cloth, you ask my clerk, "Just credit this from such and such firm." But firm has sent without any voucher, without any (indistinct), and the porter simply asks whether this is the same firm, and somebody nods and we (makes noise like stamping something), that's all. Then you come, you pick up so many bundles, "Just note down, 'This has come from such and such firm.' " You note down. Then my clerk notes it. This is transaction. And out of many such bundles, you find that you did not order this, "Wherefrom it came? It is not mine." So we set aside. Three days after, one (indistinct) comes, "Sir, on such and such date I dropped a bundle here which did not belong to you, so please give me this back." "Oh, you will see there are so many. What is yours you can take back." And he picks up, "Sir, this is my bundle," "All right, take it." He's unknown, but simply he comes and says that "I dropped one bundle here which does not belong to you. By mistake I dropped it," and I say, "Yes. So many bundles there are, you can take whatever is yours." This was the transaction. Then on the due payment day, those who supplied the cloths, they come to take payment and they say, "Sir, on such and such day, such and such cloth was supplied to you." No voucher, nothing. I open my book: "Yes, yes. That's all right." So he says that "This is the price and so much money is due payment." So he calculates, "Yes." So he pays the money and then, when taking money, he puts a stamp and he signs on the book. Now in the meantime, so many transactions we'll see, how much faithfully it was going on. So how much we have now became degraded: we supply something to somebody, we take three copies of voucher; one he takes, one we keep on book, one he gives (indistinct); then also he will try also, cheat, again. So much morally we have improved. I am speaking, say within, when I am child's age, now I am seventy-six. I may be fourteen, fifteen years old, like that. Fifty years ago these things were going on. Fifty or sixty. Sixty years ago the business dealings was so easy and plain.

Śyāmasundara: So to become increasingly complex-now we have computers and all-doesn't necessarily mean we are becoming more and more superior.

Prabhupāda: No. They are becoming more inferior. There is no necessity of computer machine.

Śyāmasundara: So even though there may be an evolution from simple to more complex, there's no evolution from inferior to superior.

Prabhupāda: That is not improvement. No. Now human society has become very complex. I don't trust you, you don't trust me. I keep my dog so that you may not come in my house-"Beware of Dogs"-and if you enter I can fire you, there is law. So what is this (indistinct)? Therefore we get from our śāstra that even you will receive your enemy at home, you will receive him so friendly way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhaṁ satram api prāptaṁ visvastham akuto 'bhayam. He should feel himself so confidential that he's not near his enemy. His dealing and behavior are so nice. The morality is that "Whatever you may be, you have come to my house, you are my guest, so I must offer you all kinds of hospitality, never mind you are my enemy. Now you are my guest." So how much ethically improved the society was. "Yes. We are enemy, so when we fight we shall fight like enemies. But now we have come to my home, you are my guest, honorary guest, I must receive you with honor." That was being done Mahābhārata time.

Śyāmasundara: In the ancient times, the Neanderthal man, the Cro-Magnon man-they always are saying that these people were killers and hunters; they had to kill to survive.

Prabhupāda: That is Darwin's philosophy, not my philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But there is no difference between the oldest cavemen and the men today. We're still killing, still hunting, still fighting. Same things.

Prabhupāda: No. Suppose just like Jesus Christ instructed his disciples, "Thou shall not kill." Say two thousand years ago in the Western countries, the men were killers, that's all. But we'll see Bhagavad-gītā, five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa is arguing that "If our women become widows then they'll be polluted. There will be varṇa-saṅkara, unwanted children, the society will go to hell." How much elevated society. Five thousand years ago. It is a question of place. It is a question of place. If Darwin says… Here in the Bible it is said that "Thou shall not kill," so that means two thousand years ago they were simply killers. That does not mean five thousand years there were no highly elevated personalities. That is his lack of studying. He is too much localized. He has no broadened knowledge, neither he has studied all the books, contemporary books; therefore he has poor fund of knowledge. He's very poor in his knowledge. Just like, still, there are many Americans… You Americans are completely different from others. You cannot say that all the Americans are drunkards and irresponsible; therefore, they are also. Side by side some moral is still there. You don't drink; you don't take meat; you are all God conscious; side by side there is. So how you can write history that "Such and such, 1971, '72, all Americans were LSD"? How you can conclude like that?

Śyāmasundara: They may find three or four bodies…

Prabhupāda: Even they may find one, they cannot conclude.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Right. That's all. They can't tell from three or four samples what everything was like.

Prabhupāda: That's not possible.

Karandhara: Just like if five thousand years from now some archeologists came to Los Angeles, which is all covered over, who knows what they may dig up? They may dig up a monkey who lived in a zoo, they may dig up the mayor of Los Angeles, they may dig up anything. What will they conclude from their findings? That all of Los Angeles was made up of monkeys?

Prabhupāda: It is simply poor fund of knowledge. He is going to give us knowledge, but he is very, very poor in his knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Actually, most of the men that they've dug up from ancient times were dumb hunters who died in some hunting accident anyway. They were a lower nature man. But I am still not clear about why they have never found out any remains of cities or ancient civilizations that were highly…

Prabhupāda: That is no reason. Suppose…

Karandhara: Actually they have. There are a number of archaeologists who have made findings like, particularly one, I can't remember his name, but he did an elaborate investigation on the Egyptian culture. And his thesis was that their culture was far more advanced than ours. They had mathematical techniques, they had…

Prabhupāda: Ajanta Caves. Ajanta Caves. Why that is? So artistic. He's unfortunate, he's simply excavated caves…

Śyāmasundara: I read about the paint in that cave. They don't know how it's still preserved. There's no chemical that they have today that will preserve paint so long.

Prabhupāda: So he's unfortunate. He could not find out Ajanta Cave; he found out some monkey's cave, that's all.

Karandhara: The Egyptians had geometric techniques that they're even…, they don't understand. They discount them…

Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda said that they took that from the Indians, geometry.

Karandhara: But this one archaeologist wrote a book saying that this community in Egypt three thousand years ago was far superior, and no one accepted. No one believed him.

Śyāmasundara: Even in Mexico there are so many highly advanced…

Prabhupāda: Mexico is Indian civilization. They were showing to (indistinct). The Rāvaṇa had subway to Brazil. It can be seen from here where you can make subway…

Śyāmasundara: Yes, straight through.

Prabhupāda: Straight through. And therefore Rāvaṇa had so much gold; he took it from his brother's kingdom. Partly it was all one kingdom, and one part was being managed by his brother (indistinct) and one by himself. And in the Rāmāyaṇa it is said that Rāma-Lakṣmaṇa was taken to a subway to (indistinct) Rāvaṇa's place; that means Rāma and Lakṣmaṇa was taken to Brazil through subway. So now if you can make subways now-in Russia there is subway for five hundred miles-then why not five thousand miles? What is the difficulty? If it is possible to make subway up to five hundred, why not five thousand? It will require so many things.

Śyāmasundara: They say that the center of the earth is molten fire, fiery. It is liquid. Liquid fire.

Karandhara: (indistinct) insulated tube, insulated tube through the fire.

Prabhupāda: No. That portion may be avoided.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. Go around the crust.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore "I am going in subway, now here is the hard column, so I go this way." What is, what is that?

Śyāmasundara: If the worms can do it, why we can't?

Prabhupāda: Rats can do it. Snake can do it. Not snake. Snakes cannot. Rats can do. [break]

Svarūpa Dāmodara: …the knowledge that we get from the so-called scientific theories of…

Prabhupāda: Poor fund of knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: …consciousness, and the theory of…

Śyāmasundara: Are scientists beginning to understand that fact, or are they still…?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They never think about that. That's why they are trying to find out so many things, because they think that when somebody tries to make something medicine or some compound, they try so many ways and means, and sometimes, when they are at a loss, they say, "O God, please give me (indistinct)." They do not know where it comes from, how this can be made. They try so many ways in making a compound. Sometimes they have to take a hundred or two hundred mistakes, and sometimes they will never get the compound. Ultimately when they are all disappointed, they say, "O God, please help me." So ordinarily the final conclusion is everybody (indistinct) supreme being.

Prabhupāda: And that is natural because, after all, God gives him his intelligence. It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "It is from Me." Apohanaṁ ca. He was forgetting. That was also…, God was not giving the chance, and he prays to God, then God is kind: "All right, do it like that." That is the statement in Bhagavad-gītā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But as soon as they get a compound, then they forget God.

Śyāmasundara: Darwin did that. He made the appearance and disappearance of animals' bodies seem so mechanically arranged that God was removed from the picture, and it appeared as if combinations of ingredients created animals and they evolved from each other.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Combination means God. He is combining. Combination does not take automatically. Suppose I am cooking. There are so many ingredients for cooking-they are not combined together. I am the cooker; I am cooking, first of all oil, and the spices, then the rice, then the dahl, then the water. In this way nice foodstuff is coming out. So this combination means God. Otherwise where is the instant the combination is taking place? I place all the ingredients in the kitchen room, and after one hour if I go, "Oh, where is my food?" (laughing) You nonsense, who is cooking your food? You starve. Just take help of a living being, then he'll cook and then you can eat. This is our experience. So why does he say combination? Wherefrom the combination comes? He is such a fool he does not know how combination takes place.

Śyāmasundara: There are several theories in that book of yours. Where is that book about the origin of life? There are several theories how everything began. They are quite interesting.

Prabhupāda: That is theory, but we see practically that material things, material elements, ingredients, they cannot be combined automatically. There must be a living entity who will combine them.

Śyāmasundara: One of the theories is that everything comes out of energy.

Prabhupāda: Energy means somebody's energy. I am sitting here, I am pushing one button, the energy is immediately created, and it goes. Just like this telex machine. So somebody is pushing the button.

Karandhara: The energetic.

Prabhupāda: And then energy, immediately produced. Computer machine, the machine is doing nothing out of his own accord. Somebody is going and pushing the button. Then it will…, the energy is created. Similarly, according to our Vedic knowledge, as soon as God wishes, immediately the energy is set off, set into action, and then other things come automatically.

Karandhara: In the trend of the scientists is that by their scientific research and their limited success which they enjoy, they are becoming more and more convinced that there is no God. They say everything is due to physical law.

Prabhupāda: No. That is the proof that they are saying there is no God, because as soon as God would withdraw the speaking power, he would not be able to speak-there is no power.

Śyāmasundara: This book is called The Creation of the Universe.

Prabhupāda: It is a scientific book?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is written by a scientist from Colorado(?) University.

Prabhupāda: So he does not agree God created?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: So there was a chunk.

Śyāmasundara: "The hierarchy of condensations." There are two theories: one is that everything was originally gas, and the other is that everything was originally turbulence or energy.

Prabhupāda: Originally gas. Now, so far we have got our experience, gas is produced from some liquid, is it not?

Śyāmasundara: They say that the liquid is produced from the gas.

Prabhupāda: That is also taught by us.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything, what was there in the beginning, that was matter.

Śyāmasundara: This says, "After the first complement of the atomic species had been formed during the first hour of expansion, nothing of particular interest happened for the next thirty million years." This is the… They have it all…

Prabhupāda: Where is the evidence that he is speaking the truth?

Śyāmasundara: The making of atoms.

Karandhara: They say that something came out of nothing, that originally there was nothing, at a point in history there was nothing, and at a point in history something began.

Śyāmasundara: Well, it says that there was a "frozen equilibrium and a spontaneous break-up of primordial nuclear fluid. The original state of matter is assumed to be a hot nuclear gas, ylen, y-l-e-n."

Prabhupāda: So first thing is that whatever he is speaking, what is the evidence for his word is to be accepted by us?

Karandhara: For most people it is just his word. Whatever his contemporary scientists conclude, he offers some insignificant evidence.

Prabhupāda: If words are to be accepted as true, why not accept the words of Kṛṣṇa? Who can be greater authority than Kṛṣṇa? If your word does not require any evidence, you are a renowned scientist, your words are sufficient, then greater scientist, greater personality is Kṛṣṇa. Then why should we not accept His words? We do not know what it is, but you are presenting there in bombastic words and we have to accept your word. Is it not? So I will say that instead of accepting your words, why not accept Kṛṣṇa's word? He's greater personality.

Karandhara: Someone will come along in a year or a few years and refute everything that this scientist says.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That we say.

Śyāmasundara: There are three different theories, each one different. They all start with an original situation of like a chunk, a hot gas measured in billions of degrees of temperature, and out of that hot gas things condense.

Karandhara: That's not starting from the beginning…

Śyāmasundara: It was called a frozen equilibrium.

Karandhara: If there's an equilibrium, there has to be some principle, or energetic.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think the book is written just so that the (indistinct) looks like, funny things broken down. He himself says whether the universe is finite or infinite (indistinct) modern telescopic experiments can (indistinct) but beyond that he said maybe the universe is finite (indistinct) that is beyond our knowledge, beyond our capacity.

Śyāmasundara: This is a diagram of four different possibilities of what the universe looks like.

Prabhupāda: This is very nice-horse saddle.

Śyāmasundara:The round one?

Prabhupāda: No, no the next.

Śyāmasundara:This one?

Prabhupāda: This one.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, they call it a saddle.

Prabhupāda: It is convenient to ride over.

Śyāmasundara: Masters of the universe.

Karandhara: They could make a thousand different drawings.

Śyāmasundara: These are all based on mathematical principles. Because they have observed that the universe is expanding, so they are trying to figure out what shape it is expanding into.

Karandhara: That information is also in the Vedas: as Mahā-Viṣṇu breathes out, the universes expand, and as Mahā-Viṣṇu breathes in, the universes contract.

Śyāmasundara: It says, "It can be shown that a closed Einsteinian universe can expand only to a certain limit, beyond which the expansion will go over into contraction." So they also agree that the universe expands and contracts.

Prabhupāda: Expand means it was not in its present state. Original state was in seed.

Śyāmasundara: That seed they say was a hot gas.

Prabhupāda: So the seed is so powerful that it has become a universe. So who made that seed, wonderful seed? And wherefrom it came? What is the tree? What is the fruit? Wherefrom seed comes? So many questions are there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The so-called modern increased living taught by people who have the ideas of these things. The result is they are always led by people who think like that. Because like Śrīla Prabhupāda said on some of the letters, "The blind men leading the blind."

Prabhupāda: They accept blind men leading them.

Karandhara: They say the empiric mind just, you cannot accept revelation, that revelation isn't experimental to our limited knowledge, or to our knowledge. The hard-core scientist doesn't want to listen to revelation or what he considers theoretical spiritual knowledge, because he can't examine it or experiment with it himself; therefore he considers it a waste of time. If he can't see it or understand it with his mind, he doesn't think that it has any bearing or importance.

Prabhupāda: So scientific brain means ultimately becoming a fool. He'll talk all nonsense. Once he is recognized scientist, then he can talk all nonsense, and the people accept it as scientific truth.

Śyāmasundara: They say that our planet, along with all of the other stars and bodies in this universe, is about five billion years old. They have calculated in several ways. One of the ways they have calculated the age of our oceans to be five billion, and the age of our oldest rocks, along with the way that the stars are distributing themselves, that they must be five billion years old. [break] Could you repeat that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I want to record it.

Prabhupāda: The Western philosophers and historians, in order to support Darwin's theory of anthropology, has never agreed to accept that the Vedic literatures written long, long years ago, but these less intelligent philosophers and theologists, their theory has been also dismantled by the discovery of this Ajanta Cave. From that cave it was very, very intelligent; as they are excavating other part, simply studying the bones. But there is other side also, this is also excavation; and it can be proved that very intelligent persons were there.

Śyāmasundara: I read about a column near Delhi that they found, made of some metal, that has been there for many, many thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: Many such things have been discovered, and besides that, they are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. So which should we consider better? Now this Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa, it was written at least eight hundred, five thousands of years ago.

Śyāmasundara: Eight hundred times five thousand?

Prabhupāda: No. Eight hundred thousand and five thousand.

Śyāmasundara: 850,000 years.

Prabhupāda: Eight hundred thousands of years and five thousands of years.

Śyāmasundara: 805,000 years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Long, long ago the Vedic knowledge was there. The Brahma-saṁhitā, it is to be understood, written by Brahmā millions and millions of years ago.

Śyāmasundara: In all of our Western history they never once referred to the Indian civilization.

Prabhupāda: Because they will be defeated. Because they will be defeated. They never recognize. That was British policy. Britishers wanted to… That is the cause of degradation of Indian culture. They manufactured such a… Even Dr. Radhakrishnan is a victim of that policy. They wanted to impress upon the Indians that before the arrival of the Britishers we were almost uncivilized: "We have made you civilized." And these rascal leaders, they accepted. That was their policy. Because they are very intelligent people. Lord Macauley (said): "If you keep them as they are, you will never be able to rule over them." And later on also, when Gandhi started that "Noncooperate with these rascals, they will go away. They are by force getting our cooperation and killing us." So noncooperate. Therefore he established the noncooperation movement. And Sir (indistinct), one of the greatest diplomats, statesmen of India, he said that "This is a very dangerous movement. Try to cut down this movement. Otherwise, if one percent of the Indian people noncooperate, it will not be possible for us to rule over this country." So in order to get our cooperation they are simply impressing that before the arrival of the Britishers, Indians were uncivilized. So many books they published. One American prostitute wrote Mother India.

Devotee: I saw that book

Prabhupāda: Yes, simply blaspheming Indian temples, culture, priest, like that. Gandhi remarked on that book, "Drain Inspector's Report." And he has simply picked up the bad side. Sometimes these priests in the temple, they make some bad behavior with woman; she has picked up this, not the better side.

Śyāmasundara: Practically, until now, no one except you has brought Indian culture out.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: No one has known before that they had high culture.

Prabhupāda: No. Because regular propaganda. And all the swamis and yogis, they also rascals, they brought some yoga system, exercises, like that.

Śyāmasundara: No philosophy…

Prabhupāda: No philosophy, no culture. As we are touching now everything: sociology, politics, religion, culture, philosophy, everything, completely. Just like we are discussing now this Pṛthu Mahārāja's kingdom, how nice it is.

Śyāmasundara: Today when we were looking at the Sanskrit ślokas, I suddenly realized that this very strict form of śloka made it easy to memorize for the people.

Prabhupāda: Yes, oh yes.

Śyāmasundara: Therefore they were always…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That Sanskrit śloka is so made that if you repeatedly chant five, six times, it will be memorized. And once it is memorized, you will never forget it.

Śyāmasundara: Then you can pass it down and you don't have to write it.

Prabhupāda: No. That requires only memory. That was the system, śruti. Once hears from the spiritual master, it is memorized for good. The memory was so sharp, and the memory was prepared by this brahmācārya.

Śyāmasundara: And the grammatical rules are so arranged to make it easy to memorize-natural rhythm.

Prabhupāda: Natural, quite natural, natural rhythm. It's not artificial.

Śyāmasundara: Whereas our Western poems are all so many different lines, lengths, rhythms, you can't remember them.

Prabhupāda: There is no standard. There is Trayita Darpana(?), there is a book, you can… So many words, the first pronunciation five, second pronunciation seven, like that. There's different kinds of (indistinct), sandhi.

Śyāmasundara: So it's meant for hearing and memorizing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can sing also very nicely, sing also, like songs, with tamboura. It is very nice. (sings:) Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa, like that, it is very nice. In every temple there should be, one man should play on tamboura and chant. It requires nice pronunciation, and with the sound of tamboura it will be (indistinct). People are coming, offering darśana, and the singing is going on. That is the system in Indian temples. It immediately vibrates.

Śyāmasundara: Do you suppose that the British supported Darwin so that that would also help their political ambitions, by introducing…

Prabhupāda: Yes. These British wanted that all the big men born in their nation-all big scientists, all big philosophers, all big politicians-they are God's selected persons; therefore they must rule over the world. That was their program.

Śyāmasundara: And by putting out this book, The Origin of Species, they at once did away with God to be able to… After that Nietzsche, another philosopher who said, "God is dead," he made that statement first, right after Darwin's book came out: "God is dead."

Prabhupāda: So we have to fight against all these nonsense philosophers.

Śyāmasundara: That boy Svarūpa Dāmodara is going to move into the temple for a few days, and each day we will discuss a different scientific topic. Tomorrow genetics, and something else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is a scientist. He will talk technical words.

Śyāmasundara: He is going to bring all of his books. And I also studied science for many years, so if I refresh, and if all of the students become armed with these arguments, they can defeat any scientist.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh yes.

Śyāmasundara: Normally they are unable to answer scientists. It is difficult to answer scientists for some devotees, because they have such strong arguments.

Prabhupāda: This point should be stressed, that he is dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains.

Śyāmasundara: Just like Bhagavad-gītā is so perfectly written, so perfectly conceived.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And also there is Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, everything, everything; every, Purāṇas.

Śyāmasundara: No barbarian could have ever conceived…

Prabhupāda: They have presented all these books as-what is called-allegory.

Śyāmasundara: Fiction, allegory.

Prabhupāda: Story. And the so-called swamis, they have also accepted like this. Therefore you can interpret in your own way. If it is a fact, how you can interpret it? But we are presenting as it is, fact. That is our business.

Śyāmasundara: They present so many newspapers every day and say this is fact, but it's lies, so many lies.

Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan has said mental speculation is a big thing, of the Western propaganda.

Śyāmasundara: I think he said it is the crowning achievement of speculative thought.

Prabhupāda: He has said like that?

Śyāmasundara: "Bhagavad-gītā is the crowning achievement of speculative thought," as if some sages thought it up.

Prabhupāda: Now what is there? Finished. [break] …fact. It is known to the Vedic culture millions of years ago. (indistinct) I was reading, aśitiṁ caturaś caiva, this is Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa and this Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa was written by Vyāsadeva five thousand years ago. And it was known long, long years ago. It was written in the Purāṇas, but it was coming by tradition long, long ago. So (indistinct). He has stolen this theory, this idea, from Brahmā-vaivarta Purāṇa, and he has tried to prove it in a different way. Otherwise this evolutionary theory is already there.

aśitiṁ caturaś caiva

lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu

bhramadbhiḥ (puruṣaiḥ prāpyaṁ

mānuṣyaṁ janma-paryayāt)

Śyāmasundara: But Darwin doesn't have any conception of the jīva.

Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He sees only the bodies are changing.

Prabhupāda: Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone, that is also mentioned there. Teṣām ātma vimanuna (indistinct). Foolish. Child. Child thinks "I am this body." (indistinct) means fools. Ātma vimanu: "I am this body." Animal thinks that "I am this body." Virakara (indistinct) ātmā vinanena anāśrita. They do not know what is my position. Misleading.

Śyāmasundara: There is a scientific subject which has become very popular now, called genetics, which has to do with the origins of life.

Prabhupāda: Well these so-called scientific theories are popular now and unpopular after few years. That's all. Again something popular. They are not science. Science cannot be popular now and unpopular after some days.

Śyāmasundara: But it's only because they have just discovered it.

Prabhupāda: Discovering, partial, that's like… They cannot discover. The things are there passing on, so many things, passing on.

Śyāmasundara: What it means in essence is that they have analyzed the individual cell of the living entity and they have found in each cell a set of genes, forty-six in each cell. These genes contain the blueprint for the whole body, like the seed of a tree contains the whole tree. So it is possible, they say, by rearranging these genes or changing them slightly that a new type of person can come out, or a new type of living entity, from the original.

Prabhupāda: Definitely. What we call the jīva, they might be talking of the jīva or genes. The genes, the jīva, they can have any nice type of body.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Can the scientists control that, the type of genes, the kinds of body, the child will get? The theory is…

Prabhupāda: Not theory… Just like we give dimension of the soul, so that statement is given by some man. Just like one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair, we get information from the Purāṇas. So this statement is also given by a man, but he is not ordinary. He is not ordinary. So any extraordinary man can give it.

Śyāmasundara: These genes are visible through a microscope, so they are not…

Prabhupāda: This is also visible. When I say that one ten-thousandth part of the hair, it is visible. Otherwise how I say? But it may not be visible to you. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: I mean these genes are not the same as the jīva in this case.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing. But jīva can be given any type of body. That is not difficult.

Śyāmasundara: So they say that each person is different from every other person because the arrangement of the genes in his cell is uniquely his, but the same genes will be passed on…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) That depends on the father and the mother.

Śyāmasundara: The same genes will be passed on to their children, so they will have characteristics like their parents in that way.

Prabhupāda: That is the body-this body.

Śyāmasundara: So they are considering that by altering these genes in certain ways, they can make very highly intelligent persons come out or very low-bred persons come out.

Prabhupāda: But that is already there. What is their credit?

Atreya Ṛṣi: They want to control more.

Prabhupāda: What is the control? It is already there. It is not under your control.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that they can make xerox copies of whatever type of personality they like.

Prabhupāda: That's right; xerox copy means the original sample is already there. So what is the credit there?

Devotee: There may be only one very, very intelligent person, but by their method they may think that they may create a whole society.

Śyāmasundara: I'll read you some of their predictions. They're very frightening. They say by 1980-that's eight years from now-that they will be able to create synthetic life in the form of artificial viruses which will be used to cure some forms of genetic diseases. Artificial life. In eight years they say they will have artificial life.

Prabhupāda: And that artificial life?

Śyāmasundara: Small viruses or living organisms, very small. But by the year 2000 they say they will be able to keep…

Prabhupāda: 2000!

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's twenty-eight years from now. They say that they will be able to deep-freeze embryos, that means unborn babies, as insurance against nuclear holocaust and for interplanetary colonization. In other words, they can send these unborn babies in frozen form to other planets and have an arrangement for them to be born and grow in the spaceship and then go out.

Prabhupāda: Don't waste your time with these rascals.

Śyāmasundara: They'll have an artificial and mechanical baby factory, effective control of most human defects. Single-celled life will be created from chemicals off the shelf. They can make intelligent animals to do menial work. And then in seventy-eight years they say that they will be able to regenerate…

Prabhupāda: Just like there was Pan American, they were selling tickets for going to Candraloka. Reservation.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, is it possible that man could ever make even a one-celled living being?

Prabhupāda: Even if he makes, what is credit there? Cells are already there. What is the question of making?

Śyāmasundara: All they're doing is creating the conditions for the jīva to enter, actually. Isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Whatever their proposal, these things are already there. So even they can create something, xerox copy, what is the credit?

Śyāmasundara: But then they'll have control over it. That's their…

Prabhupāda: No, no control, because you are beginning from something on which you have no control. So where is your control?

Śyāmasundara: "From now on I am the master. I can create more Einsteins. I can create many Einsteins."

Prabhupāda: But first of all keep Einstein living. Why he is dying?

Śyāmasundara: That's on their program too.

Prabhupāda: That's on their program-that is is another foolish thing.

Śyāmasundara: Postponement of death by at least fifty years…

Prabhupāda: So what is the profit? After fifty years he has to die. Stop, stop death, then that is credit.

Śyāmasundara: They say they will be able to take out someone like Einstein's brain when his body dies and keep it alive, a disembodied brain, and use it like a computer.

Prabhupāda: All right. Whatever. (sounding disgusted) No. All rascals, fools. As if in the brain there is the thing. What is this brain? It is a material substance, what is there, lump of matter.

Śyāmasundara: Just like they can take a heart out of a living being and they put it in a machine and keep it alive and then they transplant it to some other person.

Prabhupāda: The same intelligence, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13], they're trying to find out life in this lump of matter. That is their defect.

Śyāmasundara: They'll spend so many billions of dollars, and years of work.

Prabhupāda: The same example. Just like computer machine. They do not find that the machine is made by a brain which is different from this material. But he's trying to find out a brain from this. This is their childish… The brain is different from machine. The machine is lump of iron. And the one who is working with the machine is a different from the machine. That they do not know. That they do not know. That is their defect. Now what is this computer machine will do unless there is a worker in the computer room, highly salaried man?

Śyāmasundara: Unless it's plugged into the wall it doesn't work.

Prabhupāda: Lump of matter, iron, that's all. But that they do not know. They are so foolish and rascal. Then they're trying to find out… This is same childishness, that "I'm trying to find out the singer within the box, within the box." It is like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the proposals that they made here (indistinct) very speculative type. It's just a projection that can be made by their own speculation.

Prabhupāda: That's all. It is simply mental speculation.

Śyāmasundara: They haven't even come near to these things yet.

Prabhupāda: They'll never come.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly scientists are digging up, trying to find out something when they get some very basic preliminary ideas, they speculate so much (indistinct) this, so on. In such and such time I'll be able to make such and such things. Every scientist does like that. Ultimately it is all, it is always…

Prabhupāda: Failure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Something on the way, something comes up.

Prabhupāda: Then there, it has changed. It has changed. The circumstances have changed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) very, very delicate, the substances that they are handling, the cells of the the microorganisms. They are also subjected to different changes, without knowing anything. So, but they're taking that things are thus perfect, (indistinct) based on their perfect thinking, what they have learned is infallible. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Therefore our śāstra says these classes of men, no better than cows and asses. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Go means cows and asses. We take them like go-kharaḥ, cows and asses. They may speculate, but we take them, "You are no better than asses and cows."

Śyāmasundara: They work very hard for a little morsel of grass.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. Some fools will give them credit, and that credit is given by such class of men: dogs, hogs, camels and asses. No good men. Kṛṣṇa conscious men will never give them anything. But men like dogs, hogs, asses and camels will give them. Samstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ, this they are. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Saṁstutaḥ means eulogized. This class of men will be eulogized by whom? By dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. No Vyāsadeva will give them credit; no Nārada will give them credit; neither Kṛṣṇa will give them credit, nor followers of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will give them credit. Because they have a criterion to know what kind of man he is. They have got śāstra, and from the śāstra it is understood one who is accepting this body as the self, he is no better than cow and ass. That is our culture. He has not still found out that the worker of the machine is different. This body is just like machine. May be composed of highly mechanical arrangement, electronic parts and this and that, so many things, but after all, it is a machine! And this machine must be worked by somebody. He must be living. He is not machine.

Śyāmasundara: They can't create a machine that will act like a human?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Even if it can act, still it has to be worked. Unless I push the buttons, you cannot work. That they are missing. Just like you say that computer machine is the same, or so many things, but as soon as you say that "I want this," immediately. But you have to push the button. This machine is working when I push this plug into the electricity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like a computer cannot correct a mistake. They'll just give a message that it's wrong. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: No. They have correction. They have correction.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even they… But ultimately the mechanic (is) able to work on the computer machine.

Śyāmasundara: But what about this artificially changing bodies before they are born, before they are growing?

Prabhupāda: That is also same thing. Just like I change your shirt, what is that?

Śyāmasundara: But I mean, isn't that a demonic act?

Prabhupāda: That we shall consider later. Demonic it must be, but this change, this change can be possible.

Śyāmasundara: If by our karma we desire a certain type of body but they create all the bodies to be the same, how is that? But men are tampering with the bodies.

Prabhupāda: Let them create first, then say. Where is the man they are creating? It is simply theory.

Līlāvatī: That living entity would still have the same desire, that previous desire for that previous body, won't he? If some scientist can change the genes so that the jīva can have a different kind of body, he still would have the previous desires?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not possible. If his body… The word is daiva netreṇa: by superior arrangement. So how these rascals can be superior? They are not.

Atreya Ṛṣi: And also, Prabhupāda, in case, for example some scientist makes a change, like if the scientist comes and cuts off my hand, that's also my karma. In that way he's not making a change. Everything that is happening is God's plan.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no. Everything, even if it is not in my karma, I can cut, I become responsible for cutting.

Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, if somebody comes and cuts my hand…

Prabhupāda: Yes. He can do that. He creates his own karma.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. But how about my karma?

Prabhupāda: My karma is that such thing may happen. Your karma is that he'll also cut his hand, next life.

Atreya Ṛṣi: The fact that my hand got cut this life, wasn't this due to something I did before? (end)

BERGSON.SYA

Henri Bergson

Śyāmasundara: So Henri Bergson, his philosophy is called vitalism. He believes that there is a life force which is separate from the laws of physics and chemistry. Darwin thought that the life force was made up of physics and chemistry, but he said no, the life force is separate from Darwin's mechanical laws, and that science will never be able to adequately explain what is life, the source of life.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. It is soul. He's learning of soul. But he is unable to capture the…, positively. But the soul is not controlled by the physical laws. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. What does He say?

nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi

nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ

It is in the Second Chapter.

Devotee:

nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi

nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ

na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo

na śoṣayati mārutaḥ

[Bg. 2.23]

Prabhupāda: What is the translation?

Pradyumna: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."

Prabhupāda: What is the purport?

Śyāmasundara: "All kinds of weapons, swords, flames, rains, tornadoes, etc., are unable to kill the spirit soul. It appears that there were many kinds of weapons made of earth, water, air, ether, etc., in addition to the modern weapons of fire. Even the nuclear weapons of the modern age are classified as fire weapons, but formerly there were other weapons made of all different types of material elements. Firearms were counteracted by water weapons, which are now unknown to modern science. Nor do modern scientists have knowledge of tornado weapons. Nonetheless, the soul can never be cut into pieces nor annihilated by any number of weapons, regardless of scientific devices. Nor was it ever possible to cut the individual souls from the original Soul. The Māyāvādī, however, cannot describe how the individual soul evolved from ignorance and consequently became covered by illusory energy. Because they are atomic individual souls (sanātana) eternally, they are prone to be covered by the illusory energy, and thus they become separated from the association of the Supreme Lord…"

Prabhupāda: The vital source of the soul can be temporarily covered by physical elements, but it is not belonging to the group of physical elements. That is our system.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that reason is only to explain the life process because reason is not…

Prabhupāda: Reason explain… He cannot explain because he does not know. The soul is a living force, and it has got little independence. So the supreme living force is God, and he is part and parcel of God, exactly like the spark of the whole fire. So this song, he has finished, bhuliya tomāre saṁsāre. So as soon as the soul receives his independence from (indistinct) become God Himself or wants to become enjoyer of the material nature, he becomes powerless, and he is subjected to the influence (indistinct) by the physical elements, and because he forgets his real identity, he thinks that he is body. Just like Darwin's theory. He is not this body. It is simply, circumstantially, a covering, a dress, and the living soul is different from the physical body.

Śyāmasundara: He says that since the reality is a living force, it is always becoming something else; therefore logical explanations or scientific explanations are ineffective because they deal with static problems.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The so-called scientists, they do not know the real, basic principle; therefore they are misled. Actually the soul, the living force, because they are getting independence and has to, wants to enjoy the material world, which he cannot do, but falsely, after life (indistinct), he is running after (indistinct) material nature, and he is becoming more and more (indistinct). That is his (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: When science tries to investigate something, they assume that what they are investigating is static, that it is a constant, that it is not changing, that it's static, mechanical. But the life force, he says, is dynamic; it's always changing, unpredictable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. It is not a dead stone. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. We are all living force, sitting here, we may sit down or we may go away. That nobody can check. Similarly, we are dynamic forces, and God does not interfere with our dynamic force. He allows us, "Do whatever you like." Because if He interferes with our independence, then we are no longer living entities; we become dead stones. So God does not interfere. He gives us full freedom. But at the same time He comes down and instructs us, "But why you are engaged in this foolish activity? Please come to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, (indistinct)."

Śyāmasundara: So if he says that the physical world…

Līlāvatī: Does that mean that the spiritual body changes, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Not spiritual body, material body. Spiritual body cannot be changed.

Śyāmasundara: No. We're not talking about bodies, we're talking about the life force.

Prabhupāda: Life force means that the spirit soul has got spiritual body. That I have explained several times. Just like you have got this body. When you cut your coat, it is according to the body. Because we have hands, legs, therefore it is to be understood that this dress is made according to that real body. So originally the spirit soul has got body, so these physical elements are just like a covering, exactly to the size of the hands, legs, everything.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this life form is unpredictable, that it's always creating new things, new manifestations.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is creating new things in the material phenomena. Otherwise how he is spiritually situated, there is no such changes. The only one business is to serve Kṛṣṇa, although when we satisfy Kṛṣṇa there are many varieties. That is spiritual varieties. At the present moment, because He is lover of varieties, we are creating this material (indistinct), varieties of body, and this is subjected to threefold miseries and difficulties-birth, death, old age, disease. So, so long we are materially entrapped, our so-called (indistinct) force is creating troubles. We are becoming more and more entangled.

Śyāmasundara: But can we ever predict the movement of the life force, the dynamic force…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This (indistinct), called varieties of (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: But can we predict, can we tell in advance what there will be, what is the future?

Prabhupāda: The future is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the ultimate future. But because he's not intelligent, he has to be kicked on his face very strongly by the (indistinct). That is the foolish man. And if one is intelligent, he can tell immediately, "Oh, my duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa." That's all. "Why I am trying to serve my senses?" But to come to this platform, this understanding that "I am eternal servant of God. My business is to serve Kṛṣṇa," it requires (indistinct); therefore the māyā is there. Just like police force. The police force is there after the criminal, just to teach him that "You cannot (indistinct) the laws of the state. When you are under our supervision, and we shall simply kick on your face, that is our business." So māyā is always kicking on the face, and (s)he is creating varieties, that's all. This is called conditional life.

Śyāmasundara: So that much is predictable, that for…

Prabhupāda: You can see it is not predictable, it is actually happening. Everyone is trying to be happy, but he is being frustrated. Everyone can see. They are manufacturing different ways of material happiness but becoming frustrated. This is māyā's kicking. There is no question of prediction. Any man who has got a little intelligence, he can see.

Śyāmasundara: So someone can understand, someone can know what the life force is going to do in the future, how it will manifest itself in the future?

Prabhupāda: The future, because he is eternally servant of God, so now he has forgotten. He wants to become master, and the material nature is kicking him, life after life. So one day he'll come to his senses and become again, renovate himself to become servant of God.

Śyāmasundara: So we can predict that everyone will…

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone will be. Somebody sooner, somebody later.

Śyāmasundara: So that the purpose of the life force then is to eventually go back…

Prabhupāda: Just like when a man becomes a prisoner, he will be freed, he'll be a free man at the end of his term, and within this term he is simply kicked by the police, so that he may not come back again to prison house.

Śyāmasundara: But we can't predict that the process of punishment will have permanent effect, can we? Can we predict that? Many prisoners leave the prison, but some come back.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing as permanent. You can misuse your independence at any time.

Śyāmasundara: And come back.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Śyāmasundara: His conception of the soul, which he calls elan vital in French language, means the vital impulse.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital…, this is living force, vital force. (indistinct), it is never addressed. God has (indistinct) for the mind, for the intelligence, for the body, God has (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Is it (indistinct) in the same quantity in every body, in every living body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Same quantity. The same measurement: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.

Śyāmasundara: I mean the energy, the amount of energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That much, that spiritual energy is everywhere, in the ant or in the elephant.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, you mentioned the size of the soul, and this size seems to connote a physical size. Now, my question is: in the spiritual world, size, it seems that it is a material concept, it is a relative thing, distance…

Prabhupāda: Material size and spiritual size is not the same. Spiritual size is permanent; material size is changing.

Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, how could you measure the spiritual phenomenon with something like one-thousandth of the tip of the hair? Hair is material.

Prabhupāda: No. Because you have no spiritual vision, therefore you have to be understood by material example.

Atreya Ṛṣi: That's an example.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: And also Śyāmasundara Prabhu was asking about predicting about spiritual life. What is the qualification of the person who can make such predictions?

Prabhupāda: He must be Kṛṣṇa's representative, one who knows Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Atreya Ṛṣi: No one else.

Prabhupāda: No. If he does not know Kṛṣṇa, how he can explain?

Devotee: That independence, if he exercises that independence from now on, forever, Kṛṣṇa knows exactly how that independence is going to be used forever?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee: Well, the living entity has independence: now he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned, then he may be liberated, then he may be conditioned.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you liberation. Now you misuse your liberation, you become entrapped.

Śyāmasundara: But it is that predictable?

Devotee: Is that known beforehand?

Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa know beforehand everything, before…?

Prabhupāda: No. How Kṛṣṇa can know? You can change your mind. So Kṛṣṇa says "Surrender unto Me." If you don't surrender, then what Kṛṣṇa can do? That much independence is there.

Śyāmasundara: So even God cannot predict?

Prabhupāda: What is the use of prediction? Prediction is so much, that he will be kicked, kicked, kicked, and some day he will come.

Devotee: But the independence…

Prabhupāda: Independence is there. Independence is always there. When he is being kicked, there is also independence.

Devotee: Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, eventually permanently he will come back.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of permanent. Because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why one man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently he… He can come back again.

Śyāmasundara: There's no guarantee.

Atreya Ṛṣi: This concept of prediction, Prabhupāda. You just said it's the duty of the material (indistinct) because he's (indistinct) material. Because he's not sure and…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) by experience (indistinct). Just like you can predict that four months after, there will be winter season. This prediction is like that. You have got experience that last year there was winter season, and again four months after there will be winter season. We call this prediction of experience, that's all.

Atreya Ṛṣi: In the spiritual world everything is permanent.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: There is no need for making predictions all the time.

Prabhupāda: No. Why there is? Prediction means when there is something wanting. There is no want at all.

Devotee: Once he's liberated, can he (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. That is the general law. But if he likes, he can come back. Because otherwise, what is the meaning of independence? Just like one should become fit in the prison house, naturally he should not go again. But (indistinct) running again kicking, that's all.

Līlāvatī: So those eternally liberated souls in the spiritual sky will never come here because they choose not to. It's not that… (indistinct) they never choose to come here.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They never choose. They are very experienced. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: Bergson says that this quality of the soul can only be perceived by man's intuition, not by his senses, but by his intuition.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. Soul cannot be experienced by senses, but we can understand when there is a dead man, we can perceive that there was soul, which is now absent; therefore the body is dead. This is called perception.

Śyāmasundara: The dictionary defines intuition as "immediate apprehension by the mind without any reasoning."

Prabhupāda: That is experience. That is experience. Intuition means mature experience. Just like when as soon as there is mosquito, my hand immediately sees. You can say it is intuition, but it is experience, that when there is mosquito my hand must go there and try to kill him. But the experience is so mature that without consideration the hand goes.

Śyāmasundara: Like instinct?

Prabhupāda: That is instinct, or intuition, or whatever you call it.

Devotee: Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it explains that a yogi in this life means that in his last life (sic), but in this life it may look like he has intuition towards yoga, but actually…

Prabhupāda: Because he has got experience.

Śyāmasundara: Just like in mathematics they use the concept of intuition a lot, that…

Prabhupāda: A big mathametician, suppose there is a big addition, sum, and one experienced mathematician, he can simply… Sometimes there is some difference. You know that? Generally we have some (indistinct). Is it not? But there are many experienced (indistinct) immediately (indistinct). That is experience.

Devotee: The concept of intuition…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is not intuition, this is experience.

Devotee: Tuition(?) means experience.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Or they use another word, "insight." There is one (indistinct) to apprehend something immediately, see into it without any reasoning. They think of it in another sense.

Prabhupāda: That is also true. Just like a child does not know that by touching the fire, his hand will be burnt. His father says, "No, no, no. Don't touch this." He has got experience; the child hasn't got experience. That's all.

Devotee: Suppose if there are two people, and if you try to teach them mathematics, one person learns very quickly and one person doesn't learn it.

Prabhupāda: That varieties are always there. Impersonalists, they do not want to see the variety, but we know in everything there is variety. One man is learning (indistinct) and another man is learning very quickly-these are the varieties. But the process is the same.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever it may be, but there must be some cause. (indistinct) the variety, these varieties are existing everywhere.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the life impulse moves through the universe, creates ever newer forms or varieties, just like an artist creates different paintings. But he says that that painting the artist creates becomes better than the previous one.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can say, evolution. That is evolution. Similarly, this living force is also coming through 8,400,000 species of life, so the next one is better than the last one. In this way they come to the human form, and from this human form they can become demigods or they can become as good as God. Just like Brahma, Brahmā is also a living entity. He is not in the Viṣṇu category, but still, Brahma's power, he can create this universe. God can create many universes, but he can create at least one universe. So it is not less powerful.

Śyāmasundara: He says that evolution through the past history has moved in three stages so far. He says that the first stage of evolution was instinct. The second stage of evolution was intelligence. And now man has moved into the realm of intuition, which is higher than both.

Prabhupāda: Then he agrees that from the lowest stage he has come to the higher?

Śyāmasundara: But you said instinct and intuition were the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: His description is that instinct is lower because it's almost blind.

Prabhupāda: Belonging to the same category, that's all. One is little superior than the other.

Atreya Ṛṣi: What is realization, Prabhupāda? Realization belongs to the same category?

Prabhupāda: No. Realization means when you come to the truth.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Bergson is using the word "insight" in the same way as "realization."

Prabhupāda: No. Insight is not realization. Insight may be the beginning of realization.

Śyāmasundara: Understanding something. He says that insight or understanding something by intuition is higher than understanding something by the intelligence.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) (pause)

Devotee: (indistinct) the understanding, understand Bhagavad-gītā by our intelligence, (indistinct).

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: With the creative process advancement in ever higher levels up into the level of immortality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are getting different types of body, and when you are properly or perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, then no more this material body; you get spiritual body.

Devotee: Does that mean that I am, if I don't make it to immortality, I (indistinct)?

Śyāmasundara: No. The life force is eternal but it advances to higher and higher levels.

Devotee: It's eternal, but I don't realize its eternality (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No. The forms. The life force itself is eternal but the forms will change up to the stage of immortality.

Prabhupāda: Material forms have changed. The living force has not. The same example: the living force is there, the forms babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, the form is changed, but the person whose bodies have been changed, he is permanent, he is spiritual, he is not changed. But when he identifies with the body, he thinks that "I am changed." The example is, just like in the rainy season, at night there is cloud, and the cloud is moving, but if you see, you see the moon is moving, moon is moving. But actually the moon is not moving, the cloud is moving. You have any experience?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, we have.

Prabhupāda: You find the moon is moving like anything. Spirit soul (indistinct) is not moving.

Śyāmasundara: Is this progress toward human immortality, is that a creative process?

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by creative process? This is not creative.

Devotee: Well, Bergson's idea of creative means we are creating our immortality.

Prabhupāda: No. You are immortal always, by constitution, but you are changing your bodies exactly like the moon is fixed but the bodies are changing, clouds, changing, and it appears that the moon is also going on, but moon is not going on. Similarly, soul is permanent.

Śyāmasundara: Is that process we take, from body to body to body, is that a creative process?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You create your own body, next body, as you desire. If you create your mentality like a dog, you get a body of a dog; if you create your mentality like a hog, you get a body of hog; if you create your mentality like a tree, then you become a tree; and if you create your mentality as servant of God, you go back to home, to Kṛṣṇa.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Has Bergson recognized that we may fall also, or does he think that we are constantly moving up?

Śyāmasundara: He says it's unpredictable, that the life force…

Prabhupāda: He does not know. At the present moment I am fallen, so even if I go to my original position, there is chance of again falling down. Otherwise, how I became fallen? Just like a child once falls and again stands up, he has got chance of again falling down. You cannot say, "Now he has stood up, he'll not fall again." That is not possible.

Devotee: The different kinds of bodies, they're just different phases of the illusion, because the real, spiritual body is always the same, it's not changing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is called sanātana, eternal.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But Prabhupāda, the process of realization, the process of reaching up to perfection, is the only creative process.

Prabhupāda: [break] You are creating disturbance, I say, "Get out." (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world is a machine for the making of gods. The world…

Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. Another nonsense. (indistinct) Uncover it. (Sanskrit). A rascal is beautiful so long as he does not speak. If he remains silent, then he looks very beautiful. But as soon as he speaks nonsense, then it is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He means it, in a sense that it's a training ground, the world is a training ground… [break] … to make ourselves… [break]

Prabhupāda: …will not die. But you have forgotten that you are eternal. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasya…, what is that?

Devotee: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Explain that verse. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ, na ghaṭeta…

Devotee: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ…

Prabhupāda: …artha-sambandhaḥ svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Actually there is no bewilderment (indistinct) spirit. I am eternal spirit soul, eternal servant. Just like the (indistinct) but it is somehow or other (indistinct) for a time it is covered by the clouds it appears moving. [break] Actually it is not moving. (indistinct) we see that the moon is moving. So we are spirit soul eternally. Just like I am lying down on my bed, bit I am dreaming I have gone to Pacific Ocean and being drowned and so many things, you have come to save me, and so many troublesome things. But actually there is no Pacific Ocean, nothing of the sort. It is simply my dream. So this temporary covering of the body is just like a dream. As soon as you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything is finished.

Devotee: In the dream, they are also suffering. So in the same way it is actually happening in a subtle form in your dreams. It is actually happening.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and it has no actual value, but when it is happening and I am under dream, I am thinking it is all actual. Actually it has no value. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means which has no real existence, but it appears.

Śyāmasundara: Last night you said that what is the meaning of the word "nothing." That māyā means "nothing"?

Prabhupāda: You can say like that. Nothing is appearing like something. But we don't say nothing. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say nothing. We say temporary, just like cloud, you cannot say it is nothing.

Devotee: "Not this."

Prabhupāda: Like cloud. Cloud has appeared and it will go; therefore you can say it is nothing. But we say it is not nothing, but it is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: "That which is not." You said that māyā is "that which is not."

Prabhupāda: No. That which is not, but as you are seeing it is not that.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, as soon as you see it, it changes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you are thinking that "I am this body." Most people, all people, they think "I am this body." That is not.

Devotee: The body is there, it's just not…

Prabhupāda: Temporary. Temporary, for a few years, for a few hours, for few minutes, that's all. Therefore we cannot say "nothing." The exact word is "temporary." What is that? You wanted to speak something?

Devotee: I was just curious about dreams. Sometimes (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: These are false.

Devotee: Did you say once that sometimes Kṛṣṇa will let you work off some of your karma in a dream (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, that is all temporary.

Devotee: Just like Bergson, his idea of the (indistinct) of immortality, does that mean (indistinct), scientific, technological revolution.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, I think so. His idea is that evolution, as it passes through different bodies, the life force, and that eventually on this planet, man will become immortal.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: That life forms are improving more and more and and more, until some day they'll improve to be perfect.

Prabhupāda: After (indistinct), they are living sixty years, and they think (indistinct) sixty years (indistinct). Here in this material, either sixty years or hundred sixty years or millions of sixty years or trillions of sixty years (indistinct). One who is living for sixty years, for him millions of years means immortal.

Śyāmasundara: So we took up here on the tape. We already have the rest of this on tape. So should we finish for today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I have another question about… There are certain scientists, who through speculative knowledge, they have acquired some little bit of knowledge through speculation. My question is, Prabhupāda, that yes, maybe through speculation we can get knowledge, some knowledge, but isn't it, as Kṛṣṇa says that He is the source of all knowledge and there is no way to get to any knowledge except through His representative, that that, for example, if Bergson comes to the knowledge, even though he did not accept a spiritual master or a prophet, he acquired it because that knowledge was made available to him through some other way. In other words…

Prabhupāda: How he takes the knowledge, if it comes…, does not come to the final conclusion? That kind of knowledge anyone can get. It does not need a philosophy. To some extent.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But knowledge of God, knowledge of soul…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Real knowledge. Can one, purely speculatively, can one…

Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise the Vedas would not have asked you, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], that in order to learn that transcendental science one must approach a guru.

Atreya Ṛṣi: So when we see a speculator having some knowledge, some real knowledge…

Prabhupāda: Not real knowledge.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But some. Maybe some speculator will say, "Yes. I am convinced there is God." He heard that from either, for example, he heard it in his own culture or somewhere indirectly he heard it from God. He didn't make that up. Is that the conclusion?

Śyāmasundara: You mean by intuition can we understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One can understand. It is very easy. That I explained in the meeting, that we see, that any way you take, I have got my father, my father has got father, his father, his father, his father-so there must be some original father. That is supreme father. Another way: I don't find myself free. I am in American state, so I have to submit report to the immigration department. Or you, American citizens, you have got some obligation to the state: the draft man is there, calling you; if you don't go then you have to go to jail. So nobody is control-free; everyone is being controlled. Again, I see that the man who is controlling me, he is also controlled, and that man is also controlled, that man is… So here you see relative-I am controller and controlled. So when I approach the person who is simply controller, not controlled, that is God. How can you deny this definition of God? Simply (indistinct). Here by our experience we see, everyone is rejecting the controller and controlled. But if you can find out the Supreme Person, who is controller but not controlled, then He is God. Find out. Now, if i say that it is beyond my capacity, so go to experienced man, Brahma. He has got duration life a million times greater than you, and he got knowledge. He said,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

Sarva-kāraṇa. Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcit asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior." (indistinct) Brahmā said, "He's God." Now Śrīdhara said, "He's God." My Guru Mahārāja said, "He's God," and Caitanya says, "He's God." Then where shall I go? (indistinct) God. (indistinct) rascal, God? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. I shall accept the path of the great (indistinct).

Devotee: (indistinct) this thirteen year old god (indistinct). Then you ask them, "Who says he is God?" They really don't know what to say.

Śyāmasundara: We asked him in Bombay, "Are you God? Are you Kṛṣṇa?" And he laughed and said, "I never say I am God, but my disciples feel."

Prabhupāda: He did not want to be (indistinct). So why does he not stop his disciples to speak like that?

Śyāmasundara: He enjoys it. He enjoys being flattered. His followers are a bunch of shaggy hippies, so who respects their judgment? [break] So Bergson wants to search out what is the pattern of evolution, how it will go in the future, and he says that because men have progressed from the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Since you know beforehand everything before (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: You can change your mind. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says (indistinct). That is explained in the Bhāgavatam… [break] …progress, why do you talk of these things? What do you think, eh? That is explained in the Bhāgavatam: andhā yathāndair upanīyamānās. Andhā. One blind man is trying to lead another blind man. So what is the use of such leading? You must have eyes, then you can ask other hundreds of blind men, "Please come behind me, I shall get you across." But if you have no eyes, then why you are asking others, philosophizing?

Śyāmasundara: It seems like these two philosophers have two different viewpoints. The first one, Huxley thinks that man can take nature into his own hands and mold his own evolution.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Whereas this philosopher thinks that we should just…, that the vital force is guiding everyone and is creating its own evolution, that we should just drift in the course of things and the vital force will determine history or will determine our future.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital force will determine. That is somewhat…

Śyāmasundara: Without our doing-without anything of our own doing.

Prabhupāda: No. Vital force must know how to make progress, how to do it. Then he'll be… If he does not know how to do it, how it will be possible? Can you do anything… Suppose you are learning some mechanical business, can you do it without direction? You have to learn. You must get a teacher. So, without teacher, that is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the seasons. We just place ourselves in the seasons, take us towards something, towards springtime. [break] Yes. So the other type of morality he calls "open morality." This is determined by individuals, in a dynamic way. You blaze new trails guided by…

Prabhupāda: As soon as it is invented by individual men or society, this is all rascaldom. It has no value.

Śyāmasundara: He calls it the higher morality. Just like St. Paul or some great saint receives inspiration from God, and he blazes a new trail to morality in the society.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. Because he is God conscious, he can dictate what is real morality.

Śyāmasundara: He is speaking in this case of St. Paul.

Prabhupāda: So St. Paul, he is a sādhu. So our process is that sādhu, guru, śāstra. We have to accept everything through saintly persons, confirmed by the scripture, and described or explained by guru. Then it is perfect. The scriptures are already there, and we have to see how the scriptures are being followed by saintly persons. And if there is any difficulties, they should be explained by the spiritual master. Then it is confirmed: sādhu-śāstra-guru vākya (cittete koriyā aikya). Scriptures you cannot understand directly. Then you have to see how the scriptural injunctions are being followed by saintly persons. Even if you cannot understand, then the spiritual master will explain to you.

Śyāmasundara: And he sees also in the same way two types of religion. He sees the static religion and calls this… Static religion: myths devised by human intelligence as a means of defense against the depressing experiences of life. He says that being fearful of the future, man attempts to combat his fate by constructing religious myths. [break] …mythology…

Prabhupāda: Well, that I have already answered. Anything manufactured by man, that is not religion. That is not religion. That I have already answered. Religion is not manufactured, but it is given by God. That is our point, that God is giving religion, "Here is religion: surrender unto Me." So any religious system may be different in method, but ultimately if it comes to this point, (surrendering to God), then it is religion. Otherwise it is not religion; reject it.

Śyāmasundara: He says that prompted by this vital impulse, the human will identifies with the divine will in a mystical union…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: … and that this is real religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching people that you agree with the divine will. The divine will is that you surrender. So you agree to surrender. That we are teaching. That is real religion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that real religion is a mystic oneness with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oneness means that I agree with God. God says that "You surrender," I say, "Yes, I surrender." God says to Arjuna, "You fight," he fights. That is oneness. That we have no disagreement, in any point, with God, that is oneness. Just like in this institution, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When I say anything, there is no disagreement of any of the disciples. It is being done, taking God's representative, Kṛṣṇa's representative, so similarly with God also. But what I am doing? I am simply taking the order from God, and I am disseminating the same knowledge. I have accepted surrender unto Kṛṣṇa as my life. I am teaching others, "You also surrender." This is called disciplic succession. There is no disagreement with God. It is not that I am… [break] Yes. That means one who is God conscious, he is a mystic.

Śyāmasundara: But the modern interpretation of the word mystic is something different. People take mystic to mean someone who is very mysterious and magic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has come to that. God consciousness… Just like at the present moment if a guru can show some miracles, just like that Sai Baba, so they accept. That's a mystic.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's the modern meaning of mystic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Although it may be rascaldom, false, still if they see like that, miracles… That means less intelligent class of men. They want to see some miracles. That is mysticism.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that God means love. And the creative…, thus the creative… Through creative love the world came into being, and the world is a manifestation of God's love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God loves. Because, unless He loves, why does He come personally? Why He gives instructions through the scriptures? [break] (end)

Bentham.SYA

Jeremy Bentham

Śyāmasundara: First one.

Prabhupāda: Hedonism.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: A little bit. The first one's name is Jeremy Bentham, and his philosophy is that virtue is defined in terms of utility, and that utility is defined as that which enhances the happiness of men. So that the goal of society, according to the utilitarians, is the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is also our aim but that happiness is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat. Ātyantikam. Atyantikam means the greatest happiness. Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. That happiness can be perceived by transcendental senses.

Śyāmasundara: So you're talking about a qualitative happiness, the quality of happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yah, qualitative it must be. Ātyantikam. Ātyantikam means the actual, the greatest happiness.

Śyāmasundara: Greatest, highest happiness.

Prabhupāda: Happiness everyone wants. You are feeling happy by eating something but if you get another better thing, you feel more happiness.

Śyāmasundara: Quality of happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not the quality of happiness. You feel actually greater happiness. Just like you are taking ordinary sugar, but if you take rasagullā, it is also sweet but it is greater happiness.

Śyāmasundara: Quantity or…

Prabhupāda: No. The happiness, greater happiness, yeah, quantity you can say.

Śyāmasundara: Quantity, quantity of happiness is greater.

Prabhupāda: Yes, greater happiness. So that greatest happiness can be perceived by transcenden… Happiness means satisfying the senses. Real… Happiness means satisfying the senses. So sense gratification. But the actual sense gratification, the greatest sense gratification is to be derived by your transcendental senses, not these gross senses. Sometimes these gross senses… Take for example rasagullā. You are eating but after eating four, five or ten you'll feel, "No more." That is not ātyantikam happiness. Happiness means you are enjoying something, you increase more and more and more enjoy, more enjoy, more enjoy, more enjoy. That is happiness. So whether this man knows what is happiness, that is the… He does not know what is happiness. He thinks in terms of sense gratification.

Śyāmasundara: Physical senses.

Prabhupāda: Physical. But physical senses cannot actually cannot give you the greatest happiness. Just like a man is sensuous. So he can enjoy one woman, two women, but he cannot enjoy unlimitedly. But our standard of happiness means "which is increasingly unlimited." That is happiness. Therefore it is said, ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani. Those who are yogis, they enjoy. So enjoyment… Without enjoyment, nothing is relished. Just like you are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is some enjoyment, transcendental bliss. Otherwise how you can stick to it? So real happiness means "which is increasingly unlimited." That is happiness. Temporary happiness… Vidyāpati sings, tātala saikate vāri-bindu-sama suta-mita-ramaṇī-samāje, that we are trying to enjoy in this material world, happiness in the society, friendship and love. Suta-mita-ramaṇī-samāje, friends, children, wife, like that. That is in the society. But Vidyāpati says, "Yes, there is happiness undoubtedly, but that happiness is just like a drop of water in the desert. Desert means it is hankering after water. Dry desert, he requires water, but if you go there and put a drop of water, "Now here is water." So our, we are, who are hankering after so great happiness that these rascals' sense gratification happiness is not giving us. It is just like a drop in the desert. Therefore we are changing, changing simply. The same thing, punaḥ punaś carvita-car… The same thing, we do not know what is real happiness so simply changing the posture. Now woman should be mini-skirted. Why they should be fully dressed? (laughter) Now they're also trying. Ultimately they're coming to the position of (indistinct) (laughter). Just see. Here, here in the (indistinct). They are attracting tourists by showing the vagina(?). That's all. This is happiness. They have no other information. "Come on, here is vagina, open. This is their standard of happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45], most abominable thing they have taken as happiness. So what do they know about happiness? These so-called philosophers, they do not know what is happiness. And why they are philosophizing about happiness? Happiness is also our aim, but that happiness is different from this happiness. Just like a hog is enjoying happiness eating stool. No man will be happy by eating stool neither he will agree to enjoy such happiness. It is the standard of happiness according to the body.

Śyāmasundara: Bentham says it is better to be a satisfied hog than an unsatisfied man.

Prabhupāda: Well, hog is not satisfied. That is another rascaldom. (laughter) If hog would have been satisfied then he would have remained in one place, but he's searching after happiness whole day and night. Whole day and night. Nobody can be satisfied possessing a material body. That is not possible. (indistinct) Suppose you have made some arrangement according to your (indistinct), "Now I shall enjoy." But you will not be allowed to enjoy. Death will take away. You are thinking that "Now I will be happy." All right, to your standard it is happiness, but death will come, "No, please get out." Sukhena lagiya (Bengali). You construct a very nice house and next day it was set fire and finished. So you have made arrangement for fire brigade always running on the street. That is means you want to enjoy happiness without any disturbance. So happiness means, which is eternally possible. That is happiness. And we are trying to give people that happiness which will never be exhausted. That is our objective of happiness.

Śyāmasundara: He sees this happiness in a communal aspect. It must be for the greatest number. So he advocates a democracy where everyone is given unlimited individual freedom.

Prabhupāda: That is also another nonsense. In democracy nobody is happy. The so-called democracy does not give anyone any happiness. Otherwise in America, the greatest democratic country, why there are so many unhappy people? That also another nonsense. It is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the interest of the community would be the sum of the interests of the individuals in the community.

Prabhupāda: That is a compromise. That is not happiness, that "You don't harm me, I don't harm you, and we remain happy." That does not mean you are happy, I am happy. These are simply speculate.

Śyāmasundara: He says we can determine what is happiness for the whole by examining what is happy for the individual.

Prabhupāda: Happiness, happiness is… What is happiness, that is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Happiness means absence of distress. That is happiness. So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. You may think that you are very happy but this is not happiness. You have to see to your distressed condition because you have to take birth, you have to die, you have to suffer diseases and you have to suffer, janma-mṛtyu-jarā, old age. So where is your happiness. If the distresses are present, then where is your happiness? This is another ignorance. This is a… Nobody wants to die but death is there. Then where is your happiness? Nobody wants to become old but the old age is there. You must become old. Then where is your happiness? Nobody wants diseases but disease is there. You cannot avoid it. Then where is your happiness? This is less intelligence. That actually you are not in happiness but by your so-called philosophizing theories, you are trying to be happy, means another illusion and we take it as happiness. Actually it is not happiness. Where is your happiness?

Śyāmasundara: He has seven measurements for happiness. He calls it the hedonistic calculus, how to evaluate happiness according to seven principles. One is intensity, how intense is the pleasure in question? Two, duration, how long can a certain pleasure be expected to last? Three, certainty, how much can we depend upon a certain experience to produce the expected pleasure? Four, remoteness, how immediate or remote is the anticipated pleasure? Five, fecundity, how many future pleasures will result and will each pleasure terminate in pain? Six, purity, how free is the pleasure from painful elements? Seven, extent, how many other persons can share the pleasure?

Prabhupāda: This is a very nice definition. We accept it, this standard, but if you put material happiness and test by this standard, there is no happiness. There is no happiness. Therefore the conclusion should be, if we test with this acid test of happiness, it is impossible to get happiness in the material world. There is no question of happiness. These testing points are nice but as soon as we put any kind of happiness to this test, you will find it is failed. Take any standard (of) happiness, it will, neither of this test will be there. So the conclusion should be there is no happiness in the material world. These tests are applicable in the spiritual world.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that everything should be utilized to extract the most pleasure from life.

Prabhupāda: That is our theory, to make the best use of a bad bargain. We are already cheated, "Now all right, let me utilize it." That's all. You don't admit that "I have been cheated, now I am utilizing it."

Śyāmasundara: He says that utility is that property in any object whereby it tends to produce benefit, advantage, pleasure, good or happiness.

Prabhupāda: That is nice, this definition also, but if we put to test all our so-called happiness, it will not be possible to come out successful.

Śyāmasundara: He realizes that this view could give rise to egoistic over-indulgence, that someone could think, "Well, if pleasure is my only goal, let me do anything, never mind others."

Prabhupāda: But then how long it will stay? To come to the test, that it will not stay. Suppose one has decided that I have learned how to cheat others so you can cheat for some time to all men or all men or some men for some time but you cannot… You'll be caught, you'll be captured as a cheater. Then you will be punished. So the duration is not permanent. The test is duration.

Śyāmasundara: One of the tests is duration.

Prabhupāda: Duration, that duration will not allow to enjoy that kind of cheating happiness.

Śyāmasundara: He rejects duty or sense of duty or conscience to be the guide for moral conduct, good and bad conduct, and he accepts only the amount of pleasure or pain as the criterion of right conduct.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Whether I'm doing right or wrong will be measured by how much pain or pleasure I am getting from it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this definition we can also accept because we are try to Kṛṣṇa conscious, to derive the permanent happiness, first quality happiness.

Śyāmasundara: So if I'm feeling happy that means I am proceeding…

Prabhupāda: You must feel, if it is happiness, you must feel happy. Just like eating is happiness. So if you actually eat, you must feel happiness. It is not that (indistinct). Eating, when you are hungry, eating is happiness. But if you are not feeling happiness then what is the use of eating? By eating if you are feeling happiness, then you are eating. Strength, you'll feel strength, "Yes, I was fatigued. Now eating I am getting strength." Satisfaction. These three things are to be there when you are eating. If there is no satisfaction, no strength, then what is the meaning of eating. There is no…

Śyāmasundara: Someone might raise the point, "Well, the man is hungry and he has no food, therefore in order to feel pleasure he must steal it and cause displeasure to someone else." But this Bentham says that there are four natural curves or preventions, preventative forces to keep people from egoistic over-indulgence. One is the physical consequences of over-indulgence. If I eat too much, I get sick. One is political, that I will be imprisoned if I transgress. I will be punished. One is moral, or popular opinion, the public will think badly of me if I over-indulge. And the fourth one is religious, that God will punish me if I am an evil-doer. These four preventions he says, keep us from over-indulging in pleasure.

Prabhupāda: But if there is some happiness, why there is no prevention. That is real happiness. There is no prevention, simply go on increasing.

Śyāmasundara: Indulging.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa's happiness, there was no prevention. So that is real happiness. Prevention means material, limited. Just like drinking liquor. There is prevention also. There are no-alcoholic beer. You have seen the signboard? That is prevention.

Śyāmasundara: To be over twenty-one years old.

Prabhupāda: No some signboard, you cannot drink even, sitting on their bench. I have seen in New York so many places. So alcohol is very nice happiness, but there is prevention. In your country, the prevention is not so strong. In our country it is very… If one is caught in drunken state, immediately he is taken to the police. Immediately. He is punished. You cannot come on the road in a drunken state. No. You are found in drunken state on the road, you are liable to be arrested. You do everything in your home. Well, in most cities drinking is private.

Śyāmasundara: They were just lifting the ban in some big city in…

Prabhupāda: In Bombay. It was prohibited area. So Gandhi made this prohibition as far as possible. Now they are lifting. Because simply prohibition will not help you. Unless you have got a better engagement, this prohibition will not help you. By law you can say, "Don't do this," but if you have no better engagement, this order of the law, "Don't do this," will not act. Will not act. Just like government, your government is trying to stop this intoxication. They could not. It is increasing. But so far our society is concerned, anyone who is coming here, immediately there is no intoxication. That means he gets something better. Therefore he voluntarily checks himself. And it is possible to check. So unless you give better thing, simply by prohibition you cannot check. That is not possible. The same example again, just like a thief, he knows the prohibitive order that you shall not steal. He knows the prohibitive order even in śāstra, that if a man is a thief he will suffer this kind of hellish condition. So he has heard it from the lawyer and from the śāstra that stealing is not good and he has seen it that a thief is arrested and is punished but still he does it. But a Kṛṣṇa conscious person will not do it. That is the difference. So by law or by pressure you cannot make anyone moral. That's not possible. He has to be given something which is better than morality, then he will stop committing all kinds of sins.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the pleasure of one person will coincide with the pleasure of others, we're all more or less desiring similar pleasures.

Prabhupāda: Coincide?

Śyāmasundara: He will be similar to what other people…

Prabhupāda: That may not be on the similar standard. The standard of pleasure is according to the body. The same example, if you give halavā to the hog, he'll not be satisfied. He wants stool. He has got a body which will not allow him to accept halavā.

Śyāmasundara: But if we take a consensus of all the citizens in the state that we must try to satisfy the majority, for what they expect to be good and happy, happiness.

Prabhupāda: No, he will say that this is my happiness: "I will take meat. You may say that you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, no it is nonsense. (indistinct)."

Śyāmasundara: But the majority will take meat so…

Prabhupāda: Therefore meat is very good.

Śyāmasundara: That is the standard of pleasure, yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore to these rascals meat is very good.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, utility.

Prabhupāda: If majority of the people are meat-eater, then meat is very good, full of vitamin. Therefore it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. But we have to see what is the standard. Standard is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: that which increases duration of life, which increases strength, which increases feeling of pleasure, they are sattvika. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the standard is decided by the majority of the people.

Prabhupāda: Majority of people, they are asses. Then what is the help of that votes of the asses. Why don't you take votes from so many animals? Why you take votes from the human beings? In the country, the animals are also there. Therefore a standard of happiness, he must know and if we take that type of happiness, that is Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: We derive our standard from authority.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and actually we feel it is so. Not only accept, in the preaching work, the theory is there; but when actually takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he understands that here is the standard of happiness. I receive so many hundreds of letters daily how they are feeling happiness. (end)

MILL.SYA

John Stuart Mill

Śyāmasundara: So the second person we'll discuss of the utilitarians is called John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupāda: He was a great philosopher.

Śyāmasundara: He says that reason is essentially inductive, that is, if we can generalize from particular instances. For instance, we have observed that all men die, so we can say that all men are mortal.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot see all men in your whole life; therefore it is defective. You cannot study all men; therefore it is defective. Which is not possible by you, if you propose something which is not possible by you, then what is the meaning of this? What is the utility?

Śyāmasundara: You mean you cannot generalize from particular instances.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot generalize because your senses are limited, your life is limited. How you can study all men? You cannot go all countries where there are so many men all over the world, universe. You cannot test them. Therefore your method is defective. From his definition, that studying all men-but you cannot study. You can study a limited number of men. And if you conclude, suppose whoever you have met, you have seen that he has died. But I may say that you might not have seen a man who never dies. Then what will he accomplish?

Śyāmasundara: Well, since knowledge is limited to our experience…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. If your knowledge is limited, then you cannot generalize. Therefore our conclusion is that we don't take knowledge from anyone whose power is limited. There are four defects of the ordinary man-he may be John Stuart Mill or something-because he's to commit mistakes, he's illusioned. Just like he's talking of that induction, studying all men. This is an illusion. He cannot study. Suppose you have hundreds and thousands of men you have studied. That does not mean the whole set of human being is finished. That is, therefore, this theory is illusion. And because he's an ordinary man, he's illusioned that it is possible. So these are the defects. One commits mistakes, one is illusioned, one cheats. This is cheating also. The theory which he is putting forward is never possible to be executed, and still he's posing himself that he is philosopher. That is cheating. His senses are imperfect. He cannot do that. And still he proposes the theory. That is cheating. So these four defects are there: committing mistake, to illusion, to cheat others, and studying everything with imperfect senses.

Śyāmasundara: He has five methods for ascertaining knowledge.

Prabhupāda: We have already proved that all his methods are defective.

Śyāmasundara: He says there are five ways. All knowledge, he says, is cause and effect. So he said we can determine what is the cause and what is the effect of anything according to these five methods. One is the method of agreement, that is, if we have two or more instances of a phenomenon and there is one common circumstance behind both of them, that we can conclude that that circumstance is the cause of the effect. Just like if we observe that two stones are thrown into the water, and that each stone is thrown by someone, then we can determine that throwing is the common cause of that stone's going into the water, the common circumstance.

Prabhupāda: Why this example? What is the value of this example?

Śyāmasundara: Any example. Anything that is caused, if there are two instances of it-two balls are dropping-we can conclude, if we studied both of them, that they were both moved by some person, that that person is the cause of their falling. If there is a common circumstance for any phenomenon.

Prabhupāda: Any phenomenon that has natural law, so that is the cause. And if we go on, so what is the cause of that natural law? Then ultimately we find Kṛṣṇa. Everything, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], everything has got a cause, original source. So if you make actually research work what is the cause of this, what is the cause of this, that is called darśana. Darśana means seeing, finding out the cause. Therefore philosophy is called darśana-śāstra, to see the cause of the cause, cause of the cause, cause of the cause. So ultimately they have found Kṛṣṇa is the cause, original cause of everything.

Śyāmasundara: He is more interested, I think, in the immediate cause of something that is caused immediately by something else. Ultimately Kṛṣṇa is the cause, but what about the immediate cause?

Prabhupāda: Yes, immediate cause, we take, immediate cause. Immediate cause also we accept. So what is the conclusion? There is cause, immediate and remote. That we agree. But what is his proposition?

Śyāmasundara: His proposition is that we can study any instance of a phenomenon and find out the cause by applying these five methods: the method of agreement, then the second one is the method of difference. They're rather complicated.

Prabhupāda: That means five causes.

Śyāmasundara: No. Five methods of studying something to find out the cause. Five tests to find out the circumstances behind the phenomenon, the instance of the phenomenon, to find out the cause.

Prabhupāda: The final agreement.

Śyāmasundara: One is agreement, one is the method of difference. In other words, if we find two rocks, and one is thrown into the water, and the other remains standing still, that we can examine them both and find out that all circumstances for both of the rocks are the same except one, and that one circumstance which is different will be the cause. So say that we find out that both come from the same place, they are both sitting in a similar position, they are both at the same time, they are there, like that, but we find that one rock is thrown by someone and one rock is not thrown by someone. So we can say that the cause of the rock being thrown is the thrower, like that. That's a rough example.

Prabhupāda: That means that to cause everything, there is, behind, a living entity. Just like there are so many rocks, they are not moving, but one rock moves because behind that rock, there is a living entity who pushes the rock.

Śyāmasundara: What about if it accidentally fell off; a thunderbolt hit the rock and it moved, like that, or gravity made it fall.

Prabhupāda: Gravity, but when you say law of gravity, then the question is that somebody has made that law. One-we should give, of course-these materialistic philosophers… Just like when Rāmacandra threw stones on the sea, the gravity did not work. It was floating. The rocks were floating. Therefore the law of gravity ultimately is made by the Supreme Lord. So he can change it. So my study of gravity is not final.

Śyāmasundara: One of the other methods of testing is called the method of concomitant variation.

Prabhupāda: This method of studying the cause, so we take the ultimate cause of everything, with His full independence. The ultimate cause can do anything and everything beyond our calculation. There is cause, but the cause is so powerful that it is beyond our calculation how it is being done. Our knowledge is limited; therefore our calculation may be, may be or almost always, is not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, he observes if a ball being hit by a bat, it always moves. So he concludes that whenever there is circumstance of a bat hitting a ball, that the ball will always move.

Prabhupāda: But the bat is hitting, it is caused by a living being. The bat is not hitting automatically. And not each hitting is of the same force. Therefore the hitting of the ball by the bat, it depends on the other cause, the man who is handling the bat.

Śyāmasundara: Then using another example, that every apple on the tree will fall, but when it is ripe, it will fall to the ground. There is no man involved with that. What about that?

Prabhupāda: No. That is his imperfect vision. We say that God is everywhere. God is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu cayāntara-stham. God is present everywhere, even within the atom. Now the modern atomic theory, they will explain from atomic theory about the falldown of the apples. But we say that within the atom there is God; therefore God is the ultimate cause.

Śyāmasundara: What kind of test do we apply to phenomena to see what is the cause?

Prabhupāda: For every phenomenon there is a cause.

Śyāmasundara: But how do we determine that God is the cause behind everything?

Prabhupāda: Because then we know that God is the ultimate pusher, the pushing begins from there. So it may come through various agents. Just like one railway wagon is pushed by the engines, and it strikes another wagon and that is also pushed; another wagon, and that is pushed, that is also pushed. Similarly, the original pusher is the engine. Our study is like that, that the original, sa aikṣata, sa aikṣata… These are the Vedic… He glanced over, He desired; immediately there was creation. Therefore the original pusher is God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, how it is happening, that we cannot see. Just like same example, the wagon is already pushed, it is coming automatically. A child sees, "Oh, this wagon is coming automatically, and it caught another wagon, and it is now moved." He sees the (effect). But he did not see that ultimately there was a big engine that has pushed it.

Śyāmasundara: If we see a phenomenon like the rain falling or anything, and we want to apply the test that will prove that God is the cause of that phenomenon, what test do we apply?

Prabhupāda: The śāstras, the Vedic literature is there, the Upaniṣads are there, books are there, śāstra cakṣuṣa. You have to see it through the śāstras. That is the injunction. You cannot see directly. You have to see śāstra cakṣuṣa. Your eyes, they are defective. Just like if you read astrology, astronomy, then you can understand what is the actual volume or the bulk of the sun, but by your eyes you are seeing just a disc. So all your senses are defective. So directly seeing or perceiving or tasting has no value, because these are all defective. So we have to, it is said, you should see through śāstras, through authoritative instruction.

Śyāmasundara: So if we see the apple fall from the tree, the test that we apply is the sastric test. In order to see God in that act of falling, we have to see it through the eyes of the śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Now what do the scientists say-the law of gravity.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The fruit became ripe, the stem…

Prabhupāda: The law of gravity, why was it not applying…, why did it not fall before?

Śyāmasundara: Now the fruit has become ripe so the stem has rotted…

Prabhupāda: Therefore the law of gravity is not all. There is another condition. So that he does not know.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, many conditions must…

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these conditions are made by God. The same apple is hanging and not falling down. That means other conditions are not yet fulfilled. So therefore simply studying law of gravity is not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: No. They all study that the fruit was not yet ripe, and when it becomes ripe the stem rots, dies, and then it will become loose and fall.

Prabhupāda: So that means there are other conditions. And ripening condition is also not an effect. There are similar other fruits also. Why are they not ripened?

Śyāmasundara: Well, eventually they will all become ripened.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the law, not in your hand. When it will ripen, your law of gravitation will act. And that ripening condition is not in your hand.

Śyāmasundara: But there are other material conditions that cause the ripening.

Prabhupāda: Whatever conditions they may be, these conditions are already there, made by God. You are simply studying some of them, that's all. Therefore your studying is not sufficient. Here is a scientist. He'll say. What do you think?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our senses are imperfect, simply by empirical scientific knowledge is (indistinct) are not complete (indistinct). So you…, we cannot compete with māyā. The ultimate conclusion is that there is a supreme cause.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. So our knowledge, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, our knowledge is perfect. We say everything is caused by Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Even if you study the way the sun and the rain and so on combined to make this fruit ripe, you still have the question, "Well, why is there fruit in the first place?" Why is there fruit? Why has fruit appeared on this planet? There's no cause, apparently. But God has a cause.

Prabhupāda: God has made the law so perfect that one after-one cause affects something, and that affects another thing, another thing, one after another, so many things, ultimately. So we do not know so many things. We see the fruit, but how the fruit is growing, under which law, we simply explain nature. But it is not nature. There is a law. It is not only growing, the apples are having this nice color outside the skin, they have been painted; everything is perfectly being done by the laws, by the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you want to make a beautiful fruit, you paint it yellow or red, you take so much time. You apply your energy. The same energy is being applied there. Otherwise why, wherefrom you get the idea that a nice fruit can be painted like this? God is dictating that "You want to make a fruit, paint, you do like this, do like that." So similarly He is doing. But my doing takes so much time, because my energy is so blunt and limited. But His energy is so perfect that immediately (indistinct). The same example, just like Telex. There are so many methods, now this is latest. Immediately type here, immediately there. So before that, one could not believe that how is it I type here and five thousand miles away the type striking. So there is a law. It is not that it is magic.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Before the Telex there was law, but we didn't know it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We didn't know it. Similarly, everything is being done under some systematic law, but we do not know it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. There is one common observation also in science. They say that nothing can come out of nothing. That is already there. But it is not known, due to our imperfect senses.

Prabhupāda: That is science, we do not know.

Śyāmasundara: Nothing can come out of nothing.

Prabhupāda: Nothing. If something has come out, then background must be something. Therefore our definition is janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], everything, the root cause, the original source, is the Brahman, Absolute Truth. So whatever we are exhibiting, just like the other day, whatever we are thinking, there is some existence. Otherwise it cannot come to our ideas and thinking. The same scientific theory: nothing can come out of nothing.

Śyāmasundara: So if you are thinking of something, then it is already there.

Kṛṣṇa Kanti: The scientists say they haven't created something. They have…, we've discovered something.

Prabhupāda: That's it. That I also said the other day. We can say we have discovered. We cannot invent. America was discovered, not invented. The land was already there.

Bhavānanda: We want to claim credit.

Prabhupāda: Anyone does something new, he takes credit. [break] …so sun is taking away life. Why you were not present when we were discussing this verse?

Śyāmasundara: The sun is taking our life?

Devānanda: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I came in about halfway through.

Prabhupāda: Why? You should have come.

Śyāmasundara: I was typing. I should have come.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you hear, how you will be able to preach? Hearing is very important.

Devotee: Do the rays of the sun actually take away our life?

Prabhupāda: Rays… Actually, don't you find you're dying daily? Then? That is real.

Devotee: It means each time the sun rises and set…

Prabhupāda: Yes. One day's past means one day you lose. That's all. The sunshine…, the sunrise and sunset means passing days, that's all.

Devotee: (in background) She said it was only $400 and it would be another hundred at the end of June.

Prabhupāda: Oh! That's all right. No. I thought if it's dropped somewhere.

Devotee: She said Karandhara had made a mistake. She told him $400 and he said $500.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: Today we will finish up John Stuart Mill, by discussing his ethical, social and political philosophy…

Prabhupāda: Somebody was typing this, you told me, this philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: Two girls.

Prabhupāda: Typing?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) done?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. They've done some.

Prabhupāda: Let's see how they're doing.

Śyāmasundara: Well, they're going to… Whatever they cannot understand, they're leaving blanks, and I'll listen later and fill it in.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: We were discussing last time these utilitarians. Their philosophy is that the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and that that should be followed, that law, and that that means the greatest pleasure for the greatest number.

Prabhupāda: Greatest good for the greatest number of people. So that means even if the people are fools and rascals. Does it mean so? Now some of the fools and rascals, they, just like at the present moment, they'll want, "Give us LSD." Then LSD is first-class thing? Is that philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: Well, according to some…

Prabhupāda: Well, "according to," that's another thing. We are discussing whether this is philosophy or nonsense. That is our question. The greatest number at the present moment in your country, they'll say, "LSD is very nice. We like it." So does it mean government will allow, "Yes, the greatest number of people are wanting it. It must be…"

Śyāmasundara: Mill makes a distinction between quality and quantity. If we are only thinking of quantity of pleasure…

Prabhupāda: Then if you come to the quality, then it will be the smallest, because quality… Suppose the whole population, two million population, if you pick up from the population quality, first-class population, you find very small number. In a mass meeting if you ask in the meeting, "Who has passed M.A. examination?" maybe three or four may come. Quality.

Śyāmasundara: But I mean the pleasure, the type of pleasure, he says it should be qualitatively and quantitatively the greatest.

Prabhupāda: Pleasure also, whatever you take, when you put the question of quality of pleasure… Just like ordinary people, they are taking pleasure in eating, sleeping, mating, drinking, like that. But Kṛṣṇa pleasure is transcendental pleasure. Very few people are taking it. Very small number. So the same question again, why he said that many number of people, they are taking pleasure, so-called pleasure in taking LSD? So will that be taken as pleasure or will that be accepted? We are talking of philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Qualitatively that's not a very high pleasure, so he would not recommend it.

Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy? First of all he says the greatest number of people, generally… After all, these conditioned souls, they are fools. So if the greatest number you take, that is a great number of fools only. Because in the conditioned state, abodha-jāto, they are all fools. Our Vedic philosophy is that a man is born fool, but he is made intelligent by educational culture. That is fact. That is fact. In practical life also we see that we send our boys, our children, to school to become educated. Out of the fools, so many fools, children, who go to school, some of them take degrees, and out of many who take the degrees, some of them become postgraduates, M.A., and out of many postgraduates, some of them become still more learned, doctor in philosophy, like that. So if you go to the quality, the number will decrease. You cannot say greatest number.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is to find or to utilize those principles of life which give qualitatively and quantitatively the most pleasure to the most people. That means, he says, by quality he means… Like, for instance, he makes the statement, "It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied."

Prabhupāda: But how many Socrates will you find? Then again he comes to the minimum. You cannot find Socrates on the street, loitering.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure…

Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of maximum men? A Socrates you will find in millions, one.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure that Socrates…

Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of maximum people. The number of Socrates is not maximum. That is minimum. That is minimum. If you come to the question of quality, the quality philosophy, quality understanding, that is for the minimum. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions and millions of persons, one person is trying to become perfect." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetthi māṁ tattvataḥ: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions of such perfect men, one may understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." That is not quantity, that is quality. That is quality.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the highest quality pleasure, such as Socrates would enjoy, the high intelligence…

Prabhupāda: That is not for mass of men, not for the greatest number of men. That is the minimum. That philosophy is understood by minimum number.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that this standard should be applied to all men, that all men should be trained to find pleasure in this standard.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That means quality pleasure should be introduced to the… What, at the beginning you said maximum pleasure?

Śyāmasundara: Maximum number. He wants to find out something that will give them maximum pleasure. The purpose of government, politics, social and ethical life is to provide the greatest pleasure for the greatest number. Now to…

Prabhupāda: Greatest pleasure to the greatest number.

Śyāmasundara: …find out what is the greatest pleasure, we look for the greatest quality, which we find in someone like Socrates, he says. And then we introduce that as the standard for the greatest quantity.

Prabhupāda: But that is not acceptable by the greatest number. That is to be accepted by the smallest number.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But he says that should be the standard.

Prabhupāda: That is not meant for mass of people, the greatest number. The mass of people, abodha-jāta, they are fools and rascals. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cannot be understood by mass of people. A selected number of men who are fortunate, they can understand.

Śyāmasundara: He advises that the state or the …

Prabhupāda: Just like ekaś candra tamo hanti. Moon, you will find one in the sky, but stars, millions. But moon is wanted, not the stars, to drive away the darkness. That is our philosophy. You cannot say that there may be many moons. No. That is not possible. Many stars, maybe, which have no utility. They are glittering only. What is called? Peeping?

Śyāmasundara: Twinkling.

Prabhupāda: Twinkling. But they cannot drive away darkness. That is not possible. Glowworms. As soon as you come to the quality, that is the lowest number, minimum.

Śyāmasundara: He is trying to find out the standard of pleasure that is most desirable.

Prabhupāda: That he does not know. That he has to learn from us. He may be a big philosopher in the Western countries, but our utility of pleasure he does not know. Our pleasure is… [break] …incessant. It will not stop. That is the standard of high-class pleasure. That is quality. Here in the material world we have got experience, we get pleasure, but that is transient. Just like ordinary men, they understand sex pleasure is the highest pleasure. Actually, on sex pleasure the whole material world is existing. But how long this sex pleasure can remain? A few minutes. So our philosophy is we don't want that few minutes' pleasure. We want pleasure which will continue perpetually. Nityānanda. Nitya. Nitya means eternal. Ānanda means bliss. Satyānanda, real pleasure. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. We want the actual truth. That is quality. So that standard is mentioned in the Vedic literature, that those who are intelligent persons, those who are yogis… Yogi means perfect man. So they want pleasure which is eternal, not transient. Transient pleasure is liked by fools and rascals. Because fools and rascals, they do not know what is their constitutional position. But one who is intelligent, one who is learned, he knows his constitutional position, that he is eternal, he is not this body. Therefore he must be seeking eternal pleasure. Bodily pleasure… Body is transient, and bodily pleasures are also transient. So that is not sought after by any intelligent man. Those are sought by rascals. Because one identifies himself with the body, therefore bodily pleasure is this pleasure. But one who knows that he is not body, he is eternal. Then he seeks what is that eternal pleasure.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a small amount of a higher type of pleasure is better than a great amount of a lower type of pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our philosophy. What is that…, small?

Śyāmasundara: A small amount, a small quantity of a high quality pleasure…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …is better than a great quantity of low quality pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That is right. In Bhagavad-gītā: svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. If one executes devotional service a little, he can be delivered from the greatest danger. In another place it is said that if anyone by sentiment accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without any much understanding… Sometimes we are led by the majority, "Oh, so many people are chanting. Let me also chant." Even in that way, by sentiment if one accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and because he did not accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness very diligently, or he was not very strong, later on he may fall down-still he is gainer. Still he is gainer. While on the other hand, a person who is very intelligent, karmī, "Oh, what is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us do our duty. We have got our duty to serve our country, to our family, we must earn money," and so many things, that is called varṇāśrama. According to varṇa and āśrama we are working. They think to execute the duties of varṇāśrama is first class. They do not take to devotional service. For such persons, Bhāgavata says, "What do they gain?" What do they gain? That is our philosophy. That Kṛṣṇa consciousness qualitatively, it is so great that even taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness even for a few days, just like this boy, what is his name? He has come back…

Śyāmasundara: Hari-vilāsa.

Prabhupāda: He has come back. He is frank enough. Rayarāma, he is coming, but he wants to put some condition, but we say "No. No conditions." You see? Puruṣottama is writing me letter, "Excuse me." You see? The other boy, what is his name? No, no. Kauśalyā's husband?

Śyāmasundara: Durlabha.

Prabhupāda: Durlabha. He is also coming. They cannot go. They cannot go. Svalpam apy asya, even for a few days they have mixed with us, it is very difficult for them to give it up. The quality is so nice.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, this is Mill's idea, that…

Prabhupāda: Just like his wife went away and the boys went away, and again come back. Because the quality is so great.

Śyāmasundara: So that's his idea. He says that this standard should be introduced in the society.

Prabhupāda: So therefore, those who are sane men, actually philosophers, they should take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is the best philosophy and best utilitarian product. They should take it seriously. But they have no such knowledge. They are simply speculating. But when the actual thing is given, they cannot understand, they cannot evaluate. We were discussing this morning: except this, everything is taking our life, except this. Uttama-śloka-vārtayā. Tasyarte yat-kṣano nīta uttamaśloka-vārtayā. Except this, this discussion of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, except this time, any time, that is being taken away by the sun. Anything in this world, whatever it may be, they are all transient. This is only permanent. And because we are permanent, eternal, we should give, we should accept things which has permanent value. It is foolishness to be satisfied with something temporary. Tasyarte yat-kṣano nīta. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says also: saced nirartha ksana-nīta kanuhani. Sacet nirartha (?), such valuable time, if it is spoiled without any utility, kanuhani tatho vidhaḥ (?). Then what is the greatest loss than that? So you should utilize this philosophical point of Mr… Sir… What is it?

Śyāmasundara: John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupāda: Sir John Stuart Mill to support our movement. Yes. Write one article that "John Stuart Mill suggests this. This is real utility, and here is real utility."

Śyāmasundara: He gives the same idea by saying that it is better to be like Socrates and be dissatisfied than to be like a pig satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. Just like we, we have given up everything, dissatisfied. I left home because I was dissatisfied with my wife and children; gave it up. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like to be a devotee, even though I may be dissatisfied a little, still, but it's better than to be like a pig satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Dissatisfaction is a good thing if it is for better advancement. That is wanted. Dissatisfaction. Just like the karmīs, they are also dissatisfied with 100,000 of dollars. That means they want to make one million thousands of dollars. So that kind of dissatisfaction for the karmī is good, because he can increase further assets. Similarly, if I am dissatisfied spiritually or I am not making advance, I am still on the material platform. That is good. That dissatisfaction is… Socrates also. Yes. And ass, cats, dogs, they are satisfied with a morsel of grass, that's all. You see? A little stool, what is the value of that satisfaction? What is the value of that? That is our philosophy. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu is dissatisfied. What is that? Kadā tava-nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyate.

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda-viraheṇa me

Nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā, cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. What is that verse? Nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā? Pulakair nicitaṁ vapuḥ. Gadgada-girā. Kadā tava-nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyati. There is dissatisfaction, that "When My heart will be throbbing? When torrents of rain will come out from My eyes? When My speech will be faltering? When that day will come?" That means this ordinary way He's not satisfied. That is the ecstatic summit: one becomes like a madman, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So He is expecting, "When that stage will come?" This stage comes when one is in the summit of chanting, this stage, aṣṭa-śakti-vidhā, eight kinds of transformation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is putting forward that "When that stage will come?" Dissatisfaction. This is dissatisfaction. He says, "I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa." Even after crying, even coming to that stage of crying, He says, "No, it is not the stage. I am crying just to make a show that I am a great devotee. I do not love Kṛṣṇa. The evidence is that I am still living. Without Kṛṣṇa and still I'm living. That is My imperfection. If I would have been really lover of Kṛṣṇa, without Kṛṣṇa I would have long, long ago died. But that I have not done. I am still living." So who can show dissatisfaction like this? He says that "I am still living. This is the evidence that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." Even coming to the crying stage, first of all He said, "When I shall cry incessantly for want of Kṛṣṇa?" And again coming to that stage, He is still dissatisfied. He says, "I am simply crying just to make a show. I do not love Kṛṣṇa. If there was pinch of love for Kṛṣṇa, then I would have died long, long ago without Kṛṣṇa." This is dissatisfaction. Who can show such kind of dissatisfaction? And who can feel such dissatisfaction? So the best utility is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, from any philosophical point of view.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the only standard we have for that, to understand what is desirable, is that people actually do desire it.

Prabhupāda: Desire Kṛṣṇa, they do not know. Even he does not know, Stuart Mill. We are desiring for Kṛṣṇa. Actually we love Kṛṣṇa. That we have experienced several times. First of all, I love my country, or I love my body. Why I love? Because I, the spirit soul, I am there within the body. Therefore I love my body.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that if something is desired by people, then it is desirable.

Prabhupāda: That means… People desire so many things. Just like hog desires stool. Is that desirable? So similarly, the Bowery bums, they desire simply drinking. Is that very desirable thing? Desirable by the quality. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu desires, that is desire, not the bums. If something is desired by a personality like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that is standard of desire. He desires Kṛṣṇa. That is real standard of desire. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. The greatest personalities, what they are desiring, that is standard.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. There would seem to be a fallacy in what he says, because…

Prabhupāda: He does not know anything. For the fools he is hero, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Just like if you are sick, the medicine the doctor may prescribe may be bitter, not desirable at all, but it will cure you. Still you don't want it. It's not desirable.

Prabhupāda: He says?

Śyāmasundara: No. I mean that seems like he…, there's a fallacy in his reasoning, because if the medicine were undesirable, still it will cure you.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like I was not desiring to take my medicine. When I was a child it was very difficult to give me medicine. Three men required. (laughter) Yes. One will capture me, another (laughing) will take my legs, and then my mother will by force, I will do like this. (gestures locking of teeth, trying to force spoon into mouth, much laughter all around) This was my position. I won't agree to take any medicine. I was so obstinate.

Śyāmasundara: So that which is really desirable…

Prabhupāda: But because it is desirable, the force was applied.

Śyāmasundara: So we cannot judge what is desirable. Only…

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore our philosophy is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. The great personalities, what do they desire? Therefore we accept spiritual master, higher authority. Whatever he desires, that should be standard of desire, not my desire. Just like Kṛṣṇa desired the fight, not Arjuna's desire. Arjuna desired not to fight, but he changed his desire not to fight, to fight, because Kṛṣṇa desired, wanted it. Therefore our standard of desire should be that which is desired by greater personalities, not by me. What I am? I should always think of me as fool. Just like the same, when I was child, I was not desiring to take medicine, but my parents desired. That desire should be forced. Similarly, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, if actually the state is serious to do the best desirable thing, they should make a law that anyone who is not chanting sixteen rounds, he will be hanged! Then everyone must chant: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa-the whole world. (laughter) Yes. There was a king. Yes. He wanted to see that everyone must have tilaka and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he was inspecting silently "Whether my subjects, they are chanting?" So one day he was… How you say? What is called? Incognito, in disguise, he was going. So one householder he was asking "Oh, bring them the beads. I will not forget, or they did not do. I have to abide by the laws, so Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then the king could understand that "My order is being carried out in this way. A whole day he forgot, now he may be captured by law; therefore he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." It happened so.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are two moral sanctions for our conduct: one is the internal sanction, or our own inner conscience…

Prabhupāda: These are all nonsense-inner conscience. These are all nonsense. He's a nonsense philosopher. What do you mean, inner conscience?

Śyāmasundara: Well, our sense of duty…

Prabhupāda: Sense of duty is different from conscience. The duty, that should be taught by higher personalities: "This is your duty." Just like our principles. The spiritual master orders we must chant so many times, you must give up all these bad habits, sinful habits. This is duty. By conscience what you will understand of duty, a child?

Śyāmasundara: He's not so much talking about what is the duty, but that these two things are what motivate our moral behavior. They are what check and safeguard our moral behavior: one is conscience, or my own sense of duty, whatever that may be.

Prabhupāda: But how you will know it is? He says that one should know whatever his duty. So whatever what is his duty, how he will know it?

Śyāmasundara: Well, that, our duty is that which produces the most good for the most people.

Prabhupāda: This is also vague. This is also vague. There is no definite understanding.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the golden rule, "Do unto others."

Prabhupāda: Then if I conclude that most of the people are taking LSD, so to take LSD is my duty. Is that all right? He is vague. This is not philosophy. How a rascal can conclude about his duty? Rascal has to be trained to know what is duty. A rascal cannot conclude out of his own accord that "This is my duty" or "This is the best thing." Mr. Stuart… What is his name?

Śyāmasundara: John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupāda: John Stuart, he may be able, but it is not possible for ordinary man to know what is duty. The child plays, he does not know that his duty is to study. So parents teach him that "This is your duty. You must go to school. You must learn." So duty is not created by the rascals and fools. Duty is created by higher authority.

Śyāmasundara: He would agree with that also, but here he says that the higher authorities who determine what is duty, that their rationale or their guiding principles should be what is the greatest good for the greatest number, and that should be our duty.

Prabhupāda: Then how he suggests that a man should know his duty, like that? Then he has to approach that greatest authority. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is our philosophy. In order to know our duty, in order to know what is knowledge, we must approach a guru. Gurum evābhigacchet. We must, eva, certainly.

Śyāmasundara: His guiding principle for that, to determine what is the greatest good for the greatest number, is the golden rule of the Christians, "Do unto others as you…"

Prabhupāda: That means you have to approach Christ through… One cannot determine himself. Golden rules of Christianity means that he has to abide by the orders of Christ. That is superior authority.

Śyāmasundara: That rule is, "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you." That is the golden rule, this rule of the utilitarians.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not following. They are killing, but when he is to be killed, he goes away. But he does not think that "I don't want to be killed. Why shall I kill?" And Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." But they do not abide by this, and still they will call themselves Christians. Who wants to be killed? Nobody wants. Then why you are killing other animals? Where is your philosophy? If that is the philosophy, that I don't want to be killed, why shall I kill others? Who is following this? I shall kill you under some bad name. We'll give the dog a bad name and hang it. I want to kill cows and I say, "No, they have no soul." And what is the proof that we have got soul? I can kill you? Why there is law? By killing a man, he is hanged. Then why there is no such law for killing animal? What is this philosophy? Rascal's philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the second sanction for moral conduct is external-that is, fear of displeasing men, other men, or fear of displeasing God, hope of winning their favor, that this keeps us in moral conduct.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means accepting authority. That means accepting authority. So without authority, nobody can be good. That is the conclusion of this philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That we accept. Without becoming, without following authority, nobody can become good. That is not possible. Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must approach a guru if you want to be really learned. Like that. John Stuart had any guru?

Śyāmasundara: His father.

Prabhupāda: His father.

Śyāmasundara: Also a great philosopher, James Mill.

Prabhupāda: So without following guru authority, nobody can be learned. That is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: Actually, he accepts authority in both cases of moral, of moral sanctions. One, he says, that the authority should determine what is duty, and also so that my conscience will keep me following the duty.

Prabhupāda: That duty means to take orders from authority. That is real duty. Otherwise, I cannot create my duty.

Śyāmasundara: If I accept the authority as my duty…

Prabhupāda: The orders of the authority.

Śyāmasundara: The orders of the authority as my duty, then my conscience keeps me following that order. My conscience.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you agree.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Authority means we agree to follow.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up everything. Surrender unto Me," we accept that. So similarly, that is the duty. Now I may accept Kṛṣṇa, you may accept Christ, but that doesn't matter. But duty means what the higher authority orders, you must follow. That is duty.

Śyāmasundara: And if I am aware what is that duty…

Prabhupāda: You will be aware as soon as you approach the higher authority. He'll give you order, "Do this," "Do not do this."

Śyāmasundara: Then my conscience tells me if I am doing it right or wrong, my inner conscience, it tells me…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That anyone can understand. Even a dog can understand. You see, if the dog is trying to enter the room, I say "Hut!" he can also, he has got conscience, "Oh, the master does not want me to enter." That conscience is there in cats and dogs. That is not very high consciousness. Real consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That discrimination is there.

Śyāmasundara: So my inner conscience tells me…

Prabhupāda: You know the consciousness of the tiger? Actual fact, you know the big, big circus tigers are trained to play. So the training is, I learned it from their men, that when the tiger comes, raw tiger from the (jungle) comes… What is the tiger player, player, what he is called? What is his name?

Śyāmasundara: Ring master? Trainer. Trainer. Animal trainer.

Prabhupāda: Trainer, yes. So the raw tiger is kept in the cage and the trainer comes for several days, he simply whips. Then for several days whips and gives some food, and then he comes with the whip and food. So he does not whip, he gives some food. In this way tiger becomes tamed by him. So he plays before the trainer only. He has got that whip. Because he is animal, he has got that impression, "He will kill me." Therefore he plays. As soon as this man goes away, he will immediately attack, anyone comes. Just like dog, he fears the (master); for others he jumps over. So it is a question of training. So he has got the conscience. My point is that he has got the conscience, "Oh, here is my trainer. He will kill me." He has got this conscience. This is good. "If I attack, oh, he will kill me. But here is an ordinary man, I can kill him." So he has difference of conscience. Even the tiger, even the cats, and the dogs. This discrimination, power of discrimination, is there in the animals also. But that is not consciousness. Real consciousness is to accept Kṛṣṇa. That is real consciousness. [break]

Śyāmasundara: He advocates complete individualism and freedom, that everyone should have complete freedom to do…

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Nobody has got that.

Śyāmasundara: He says that everyone should be free…

Prabhupāda: Then everyone should be philosopher. He has got his own philosophy. Everyone has got his own philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that in this way by everyone being free to compete, the best ones will come out.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is not freedom; that is competition.

Śyāmasundara: Competition. But in order to compete, there has to be freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But nobody is independent. That is our point of view. Everyone is dependent. Somebody is voluntarily dependent on Kṛṣṇa and somebody is by force dependent on māyā. That's all. But he must be dependent.

Śyāmasundara: He says in this way that society should be organized so that there is freedom of belief, freedom to unite, freedom of taste, freedom of competition. But one individual's freedom should not encroach upon another individual's freedom.

Prabhupāda: Then why they are killing? The freedom of the poor animals, why they encroach on the freedom of others? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. Do not encroach upon others' freedom. That is Vedic injunction. That is nice. But why these people are encroaching upon the freedom of these animals? The birds, they are flying, freedom, the ducks. Why they kill? Encroaching upon other's freedom. Without any harm, the birds are flying, without… If you kill an aggressor then you are right. Suppose somebody is coming to kill you, then you kill first. That is good. But if somebody's not doing anything harm to you, and if you kill, then what is this philosophy? What is this philosophy? Give him some bad name, because I have to kill him. "Oh, he has no soul." You can attack, he has no consciousness, you have no soul. You can attack him. Why you are killing? Let him kill you. So far this philosophy of religion, he says that God is good, but that he is involved in a world which is not his own making. That God didn't create the world, but that he is involved with it. Then we should be judged by Mill. God is good, but not as good as he thinks he is. That is his opinion about God.

Śyāmasundara: No. God is… God is good…

Prabhupāda: God is good in all conditions, or God is good when Stuart Mill accepts? What is the position of God?

Śyāmasundara: He says that the presence of evil indicates that if God were everything, that He would be not so good.

Prabhupāda: Why? Therefore God has to depend on the free will or on the opinion of Mr. Mill? Is that? He says that God is not so good. God is good, but not so good because he does not approve all of His activities.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that God is good, but He is limited in His power; otherwise everything would be good.

Prabhupāda: How nonsense he is! And he is philosopher. He is making God limited, and he is philosopher. Just see.

Śyāmasundara: He says if God were good then everything would be good.

Prabhupāda: Everything is good! That is our philosophy. When the God kills the demons, immediately flowers are showered upon Him from the sky. You have not read in…? He is good. He is always good. He has no idea of God, and still he poses himself as philosopher. God is good. Kṛṣṇa chanted, danced with others' wives at dead of night. Any man who does it, he is immediately a debauch, licentious. But still we worship that rasa-līlā. We worship that rasa-līlā. We keep the picture of God's dancing with others' wives. That is God. In all circumstances, God is good. That is worshipable. That is idea of God. Not that I put Him under my judgment: "Oh, yes, you are good, but not so good." Then I am a fool. I create my own God. "I am better than God. I can create God." No. God creates you. You cannot create God.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because there is evil present in the world, that this shows…

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is evil, what is good. He should know what is created by God is good, even if it appears to be evil to us. That is conception of God. I may think it is evil, but it is good. I do not know how it is good-that is my fault. That is my fault. But it is good. If I put God under my discrimination, under my judgment, that He is not good. He is not God; He is dog. God cannot be under my judgment. God is good always.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all for John Stuart Mill. (end)

JAMES.SYA

William James

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing American philosopher William James. His philosophy is called pragmatism, or that which can be practically applied. The central thesis of his philosophy is that the whole function of thought is to produce habits of action. In other words, he was tired of theoretical philosophy, and he wanted to see that philosophy had practical application.

Prabhupāda: So philosophy without practical application is called mental speculation. It has no value. We agree to that. Philosophy must be practically applied in life. That is real philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is a question, "What difference would it make, practically, to anyone, if this notion rather than that notion were true?" He says that the criterion for deciding that question is the practicality of something. If there are two questions, two notions, then the standard of judgment should be which notion is applicable in practice.

Prabhupāda: Which notion should be…?

Śyāmasundara: Which notion will have the better result in practice.

Prabhupāda: Which is factual, not theoretical-that will have good effect in practice. What is his example?

Śyāmasundara: There is no example given, but for instance, if there are two different theories involving a subject, then that theory which is more easily practiced is more true. It has become part of our experience; that is true. He says that anything that is meaningful or real must have some influence on practice on our experience, and vice verse. Anything that is practiced must be meaningful or real.

Prabhupāda: So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have invited our students, and when they actually practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the result is immediately there. Just like you all European and American boys, you were eating meat, and other things were practiced, but since you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you have left it. So by practicing, we see the practical result; therefore this is most practical.

Śyāmasundara: What about, for instance, people who are practicing sense gratification, and they find it very practical to gratify their senses. Does this mean that it is meaningful or real?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is real. But by sense gratification we will gradually glide down to the hellish condition of life. Therefore sense gratification should not be allowed unrestricted. That is practical. If you eat more, you suffer from indigestion. If you have more sex life, then you get tuberculosis. This is practical. If you indulge in intoxication, then gradually you become a nonsense, crazy. Therefore when we say that "Don't do this," this is practical.

Śyāmasundara: So it is a matter of degree which is more practical than something else. Sense gratification or communism or any other "ism," it's practiced (indistinct) effect, but that effect…

Prabhupāda: But if it has bad effect then what is the use of it? It must have good effect. Effect must be there, but if it is bad, that is not practical. The effect must be good and continuous.

Viśāla: But that good result is relative, depending upon who is deciding whether it is good. In other words, Lenin or Mao, they feel that the practical result of their philosophy is good.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but now Mao disagrees with the practical utility of Russian philosophy. So where is the stability? And similarly, the Russians don't agree with the Chinese, so what is practical for China is not practical for the Russians. So which one we shall take?

Viśāla: That which is practical for both.

Prabhupāda: That means both of them are not practical. It will be proved in due course of time.

Śyāmasundara: He says that terms such as "God" and "matter" and "absolute" and terms like that must have cash value or practical worth. He says, "You must bring out of each work its practical cash value."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement daily brings cash value without any business, without any labor. What do you think?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Viśāla knows very well.

Śyāmasundara: So when we use the word "God," it has cash value?

Prabhupāda: Cash value. We are going to everyone, we are simply showing some book and taking (indistinct). You can say, somebody may say, you are giving books worth $200 and taking $1,100…

Śyāmasundara: I think this may be one reason why Kṛṣṇa consciousness is thriving in America, because this is a typically American idea, that everything must have a cash value or it is useless.

Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has cash value. Even in Los Angeles, outsiders, they are surprised: "How these people live in such a nice house, eat such nicely, and have so many cars, and they have no anxieties, although they do not work, they have no business?" So what can be more cash value than this?

Devotee: And no bills for psychoanalysis.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there, but still they do not work, and these rascals, they work the whole day and night, and still they are not happy. What more cash value we can expect than Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Śyāmasundara: He says theories must become instruments, and not just answers to questions which we rest upon. They must become instruments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Theory is instrument. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, about the nature of truth, that truth is more than just an agreement of idea with reality, but it also has a practical significance, that whatever is practical is true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Practical we can see from the verse of Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that anyone who has got a slight merciful glance of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he thinks that Brahman liberation is as good as hell. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. And the heavenly planets, they are phantasmagoria, and yoga-siddhi, that is not a very important thing. And people are suffering on this material condition. (But) for a devotee it is simply pleasing. Everywhere he goes he feels pleased, while others seeing full of anxiety. Devotees, they are seeing everything pleasing. So these things happen simply by a fragment of the merciful glance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu upon His devotees. Viśvaṁ pūrṇam, they do not care for any big scholar or many exalted personalities, just like we challenge anyone, even we don't care for Dr. Radhakrishnan, who is so much exalted. So this is practical. Because one has become Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore these things happen. (to guest:) Please sit down. (Bengali)

Śyāmasundara: His idea of truth is that truth means experience.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Bhakti means one who advances in bhakti, he becomes…, he has no more any taste for material enjoyment. The more one increases in bhakti cult, he decreases his tendency for material enjoyment. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra. Unless one becomes detestful for material things, it is to be understood that he is not making progress. This is practical. The example is given just like a hungry man: when he eats, he feels, as he goes on eating, proportionately he feels satisfaction and strength of (indistinct). Similarly, one who is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will feel spiritually strong and no taste for material enjoyment. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that truth is created in the same manner as health and wealth are created.

Prabhupāda: Truth is not created. Health can be created, but truth is existing always. It is not created.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that truth is developing in the same way as…

Prabhupāda: Truth is not developing, but you are gradually progressing towards truth. Truth is not developing. Just like the sun is not developing, but as the clouds disappear, you are developing your sight to see the sun. That's all. The sun is not developing. The sun is there in its position.

Śyāmasundara: He calls truth a system of verification; in other words, a process whereby ideas become true and they are made true by events in our experience. As we get more experience, then truth is created.

Prabhupāda: Not created. Truth is there. Truth is revealed. As you make progress, so the truth becomes revealed. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "As one makes his surrendering process complete, I become revealed to him accordingly."

Śyāmasundara: But if an idea works when it is applied to concrete facts of experience, then it becomes a true idea, and we accept it as a true idea. So as we develop our experience, our life progresses, then we develop truth because we see that this idea works in my experience, so then it becomes true. Is this not the process?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our process. Just like one enters to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the beginning by faith. He has on practical experience. But suppose somebody sees that "These people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, appear to be very bright-faced," just like in your country they may have been known, the bright-faced. So he gets a little interest. So that interest increases. First of all he comes with little faith and interest, but as he associates with us, the interest increases. That is true. Otherwise why are they sticking?

Śyāmasundara: His experience proves that the ideas are true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, how you European and American boys, you are satisfied with the shirt only? Where is your necktie, coat and boot and everything?

Śyāmasundara: Because their idea doesn't have practical value for us.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) You are practically realizing that a simple life is better than this artificial way of life. So that is true.

Śyāmasundara: But to a businessman a shirt, and a coat and a tie, they have practical value.

Prabhupāda: Practical value is all right. When you go to take some business, then you must satisfy him. Not that I require, but because I am going to get some business from a person, so I have to satisfy him. The Indian word is abruci khana phalusi pay na. When you go to meet somebody, so you must dress yourself so that your dress may attract. So dress is not required for you, but because you are going to attract some person, then you may dress like a gentleman. But when you eat yourself, Kṛṣṇa prasāda, you don't require to constantly think (indistinct) whether he'll be pleased or not. That doesn't require. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: The idea is that the suit and the coat are practical for the businessman, and the…

Prabhupāda: Business, that is socially required. If you, of course… In our Bengali it is called jana bahune pohite dakhane. If a man is known a brāhmaṇa, he doesn't require to show his sacred thread. Just like our Kṛṣṇa conscious men, gradually people are understanding our philosophy, so even if we go in this dress, they honor us. But for ordinary things, if you go in this dress, it will not attract them.

Śyāmasundara: One thing that puzzles me is if what is practical for one person is not practical for another person, then what is the criterion of truth? Is truth relative? This is true for me but it is not true for you. This isn't true for him but it is…

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are relative truths. But for the Absolute Truth… There is Absolute Truth and relative truth. So first of all we have to see in which you are interested-Absolute Truth or relative truth. That is to be understood. There are two kinds of truth.

Śyāmasundara: So if the result of the businessman is to make some money for his use, and our purpose of doing business is also to make some money for another use, so then it is a question of what the use, what is the practical…

Prabhupāda: As far as pushing on your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just like constructing this big building, you require some money. So if you go somewhere to take that money, you must please him; otherwise you cannot get money. But his pleasing that man is not the ultimate goal. Ultimate goal is to please Kṛṣṇa. But for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, this is a temporary method I have accepted, just to please Him.

Śyāmasundara: What about the businessman who goes to please that man for his…

Prabhupāda: When a businessman goes to please somebody, he wants the money for himself. That is the difference. But when we go to please somebody, to get some money, our ultimate aim is to please Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth. Therefore the means adopted, even if it is relative truth, that becomes Absolute Truth. The end justifies the means. Because the means is adopted, just like Kṛṣṇa advises Arjuna, "Just go and tell Droṇācārya that his son is dead," although his son was not dead. So this is not truth. But because by that action Kṛṣṇa will be pleased-Kṛṣṇa is Absolute Truth-therefore even that lying is also absolute.

Śyāmasundara: So practicality has to be judged on the result, what is the result of that action?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is that the end justifies the means. Means is not very important. What is the end, we have to see.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, James uses the example of God. Whether God exists depends on the extent to which a belief in God affects my life. In other words if it is practical, if it makes me feel happy, if I get some courage and strength by believing in God, then God is true, then God does exist.

Prabhupāda: So one may not feel like that, that means that God does not exist? Suppose one man does not feel very good talking about God. That means God is null and void?

Śyāmasundara: According to James's philosophy…

Prabhupāda: That means he is an atheist. He's a godless.

Śyāmasundara: He considers himself to be a religious man.

Prabhupāda: Considers… He has no idea of God. What kind of a religious man he is? We say he is a nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, truth is relative, according to him.

Prabhupāda: No. Truth is not relative. Your position is relative. So long you are under the clutches of māyā, your understanding of God is relative. God is not relative. God is absolute. You cannot understand God. Your position is relative. Just like, I will give you a practical example: a man is deaf and he is calling wife, "Mrs. such and such, such and such." She is replying, "Yes. I am coming." But he himself is deaf. He cannot hear the wife is replying. So he is accusing his wife, "Mrs. such and such is very deaf; she cannot hear." She is hearing; she is replying. This rascal cannot hear; therefore she becomes deaf. This is an example. So I cannot understand what is God-therefore there is no God. This is the most rascal position. I cannot see at night the sun-therefore there is no sun. He does not understand that "I am in darkness at night, so there is no possibility of my seeing." He has no such knowledge. But he concludes there is not sun. That is rascaldom.

Śyāmasundara: I think he would say that a belief in God would…

Prabhupāda: It is not belief. You believe or not believe, God is there.

Śyāmasundara: But he would say that…

Prabhupāda: And that word is another nonsense expression. You believe in God, you don't believe, what does it matter for God?

Śyāmasundara: But I think he would say that if everyone who believes in God gets some strength, some happiness, some courage, so that it would benefit everyone to believe in God…

Prabhupāda: But he does not get any strength by it, does it mean God is not there?

Śyāmasundara: But doesn't everyone derive strength?

Prabhupāda: No. Somebody, he thinks, "By drinking I get strength." There are many men in Bowery Street in your country. So, just like, why these drunkards? I'll give you a practical example. When long ago when Mahatma Gandhi came in Calcutta, so some of the Gauḍīya Math men went to invite him, "Mahatma Gandhi, please come to our temple." At that time charka was very prominent.

Śyāmasundara: What is that?

Prabhupāda: Charka, the, what is called? Spinning wheel.

Śyāmasundara: Spinning wheel.

Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, yes. Gandhi was himself devoting, just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he thought that you spin. So he first of all inquired whether in your temple you spin this charka. They replied, "No, sir. We worship Kṛṣṇa, God, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is our regular routine work." Gandhi replied, "Oh, then I am not going to your temple. My charka is my God." He said that. And actually, for him, charka was God in this sense: by introducing charka the whole Manchester closed. You see? And the British Empire half broken, simply by killing this Manchester industry. So many mills they closed. But later on the, (laughs) Manchester came to Ahmedabad. Now when we are taking supplies from Manchester, we are getting cloth, one rupee 8 annas per pair, now we have to pay twenty-five rupees per pair.

Śyāmasundara: For dhotīs?

Prabhupāda: Dhotīs, yes. In our childhood we have seen that Manchester made cloth, first class. One dhotī was selling (indistinct), that was selling like hotcake, imported by Rally Brothers. Very nice cloth-one rupee 8 annas per pair, two, two pieces. But the same dhotī you have to purchase at twenty-five. So the consumer's money is now going to Ahmedabad. You may say your money is saved in your country, but my pocket is empty. (laughs) It is saved in my country, that's all right-in the state bank. That's all right. But my pocket is empty.

Śyāmasundara: And Mafatlal's pocket is full.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is going on.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a person's philosophical attitude will depend upon the individual's personality. Different personalities naturally have a different philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy without any fact is mental speculation. What is the value of such philosophy? He has already practical value. According to person, your mentality, your personality may not agree with me. Then you have got different philosophy. And what is the practical use?

Devotee: This seems to have a similarity to the divisions of faith according to the three guṇas.

Prabhupāda: No. The philosophy is not faith. Faith is a different thing, and fact is different thing. Philosophy must be on the fact, not on faith. Faith may be blind faith. That is different thing.

Śyāmasundara: So he says we seek a universe which is appropriate to our predispositions. If we have a certain inclination we automatically seek to piece together the universe according to our, the way we see things, our perspective.

Prabhupāda: What is that, seeing?

Śyāmasundara: So that people who think differently about things, who have different inclinations and abilities, different perspectives, they will automatically see the world or the universe in a different manner.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They will have different philosophies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that does not prove the fact. Different men have got different ideas of peace, that does not mean that is peace. Peace is a different thing. Peace is that which applies to everyone. That is peace. Not that because I think by drinking I shall be peaceful, therefore drinking is peace. No. And somebody thinks, "By doing this thing, I'll feel peaceful." No. There must be a standard of peace which will be applicable to everyone. That is real peace. We are talking of that peace.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that there are two basic or fundamental philosophical temperaments. The one he calls tendermindedness, which is exemplified by the rationalist, the idealist, the optimist, the religionist, and the dogmatist; and toughmindedness, or the empiricist, the materialist, the pessimist, the irreligious, the fatalist and the skeptic. He says that philosophers are of two types: tender minded and tough minded.

Prabhupāda: So this depends upon one's education. If one is educated, in one way he may become tender, and another man, if he is educated in a different way, he may be hard. But our proposition is that originally the soul is good. This tenderness and hardness, they are developed later on. But they are not standard. When you come to the platform of soul, there everything is good. In that platform, either tenderness or hardness, both of them are in the absolute. So our philosophy is that, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, that every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is good, pavitra. Just like Arjuna accepts, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram [Bg. 10.12]. Pavitra means pure. But because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we are pure. The impurities are acquired by our contamination with this material world. So either you become tender or hard-that is impurity of this material world. So we don't give any credit to any person, either he is tender or hard. These are all material qualifications. When he is spiritually placed, then we give him, that he is now liberated, either from tenderness or from hardness. These are all material qualifications. One is hard, one is tender. So that is our material quality. Just like a disease. One is suffering from headache, one is suffering from indigestion, or one is suffering from fever. So one who is suffering from headache, he is thinking, "Instead of having a headache, if I would have suffered from indigestion it was better." You see? And the man who is suffering from indigestion, passing stool every three minutes, he is thinking that "If I would have suffered from headache instead of this nasty disease, I would have been all right." So these rascaldom, either tenderness or something, it is the same thing. It is our mental concoction that he thinks this is a better disease. It is not better. It is bad. Therefore it is explained by Caitanya-caritāmṛta, 'dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali saman, ei bhalo ei manda sab more ghara. 'Dvaite: when you are contaminated, diseased… I will give you one… I heard from one of my medical practitioners friend. So he told me that when he was a student in Calcutta there was a big professor, Colonel Megha, English professor. He was lecturing, and with in talking he said that in our country that seventy-eight percent of the students are infected with syphilis. Yes. So the doctor said as soon as he heard from Professor Megha, he said, "Horrible." And the doctor said, "Why you are saying horrible? In your country ninety-nine percent are suffering from malaria. So as a doctor you should take the disease. Why do you think that this is a horrible and this is not horrible? You are thinking that malaria is not horrible; syphilis is horrible. But in our country we think syphilis is not horrible and malaria is horrible. So as a medical practitioner you should consider the disease, not the aftereffects. Aftereffects of all diseases is suffering, either it is malaria or it is syphilis." So we should be concerned that this soul, pure soul, is affected by these sattva, rajas, tamaguṇa, material modes of nature, and he is suffering. So he should be given relief from this suffering, not that because one is contaminated by this sattva-guṇa, one is a brāhmaṇa, very nice brāhmaṇa, therefore that is, from a material point of view, the brāhmaṇa is better than a śūdra. But from the spiritual platform, either a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra, they are contaminated by this material nature, so they are suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa is thinking, "Oh, I am so pure. I am learned." So that is, thinking "I am so, I am so, I am so…" he is not thinking that he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God. Similarly, others are also thinking. So the fact is, so long as one is affected by these material modes of nature, his position is the same.

Śyāmasundara: William James's position is…, he calls himself a radical empiricist. He says that the unity of the universe as a neat set of interconnected relations in an absolute. It is false, because…

Prabhupāda: Absolute? False?

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that a unified pattern of things, that the universe as a unified scheme, neat pattern of things, is false because our direct experience informs us of a discontinuity of facts. Our direct experiences sees discontinuity of facts, so we must conclude that the universe is comprised of facts which are not perfect in unity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are seeing the universe by your imperfect eyes. So it is your imperfectness. Just like you are seeing the sun planet just like a disc, but it is not a disc. But because you cannot see perfectly, you are thinking like that. So your conception of the universe is imperfect, because you are imperfect. Otherwise, everything is complete. Just like Īśopaniṣad, pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. It is complete. That is the first verse of the Īśopaniṣad. But because you are imperfect, you are seeing the universe and everything as imperfect. The universe, because it is made by God, it cannot be imperfect. God is perfect, and anything created by God is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that…

Prabhupāda: Because you do not see through the eyes of God-you want to see through your imperfect eyes-therefore you consider this universe as imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is, the exact quote is, "That order is gradually one and always in the making." In other words, the universe is evolving toward ultimate unification, which is never fully achieved.

Prabhupāda: That means he has no knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. The universe is complete, but he is not complete. The same example: The deaf husband is considering the wife is deaf, because he cannot hear the response given by the wife. So because he has got imperfect knowledge, he has no knowledge of God, he has no knowledge that the… God has created this universe, and because it is created by the perfect being, it is also perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Because his vision of a unified universe is evolving, then he ascribes that the universe itself is false…

Prabhupāda: No. The universe is not evolving. It is perfect since it was created. But because we have no perfect knowledge, you are thinking it is evolving.

Śyāmasundara: Because he… Because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity. This is his criterion for truth, that only that which I can perceive is true, or which I can experience.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What you can perceive, that may be wrong thing also, because you are not perfect. But because you have got a poor fund of knowledge, therefore you are thinking that imperfect thing it is also perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that… This is a quote…

Prabhupāda: Just like in the śāstras it is stated that the human beings, they are being controlled by the modes of passion, so they love to work very hard. And that hard working, they think it is happiness. Actually, everyone is working hard day and night, and because he is getting some money in return, he is thinking that "I am becoming happier." In exchange of a little money he is accepting that hard working is very good. But śāstra says that this hard working for some sense gratification is being done by the hogs and dogs. They are also working hard, and getting some remuneration for food and sense enjoyment. So that business is there already. So does it mean that a human being also works so hard, as a hog, simply to get his food and sense gratification? Suppose a big builder is working hard and getting money. But what will be the result of his work? A little food and sense gratification. A beggar also, he's getting the little food and sense gratification. Then why he's happy working so hard? What is the use? That sense, it does not come to him. He thinks, "I am happy. I am happier than the beggar because I have got so much money, I have got such a big building." But what is in relation to you? You are eating the same four capatis and have your sex life with your wife, that's all. What is the better advantage you are getting than the hog and poor man? This is because he is in the modes of passion, he is thinking, "I am happier than him." This is called māyā, or illusion.

Śyāmasundara: James says that the world…

Prabhupāda: Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt, śāstra says. This viṣayasu, eating, sleeping, mating and defending-this is called viṣayasu-that is available in every life. A dog is also enjoying, the hog is also enjoying, a poor man is also enjoying, or a rich man is also enjoying. If a rich man has no hunger, then even very palatable dishes will not be very pleasing to him. But a poor man, if he has got hunger, even a rough foodstuff without any ghee or without any…, he eats like anything, like nectar. So the happiness of this viṣaya-eating, sleeping, mating and defending-they are equal everywhere. That does not mean that a rich man is enjoying eating more than a poor man. No. When one eats if one is hungry, the enjoyment is the same. There is no difference. Similarly the hog eats the stool with great eagerness. You pass stool, and the hog is waiting. As soon as you stand up, two or three hogs, "ruh, ruh, ruh," like this. (laughter) You see? So the happiness of eating stool and the happiness of eating halavā are the same. You see? It depends on the different tongues. Therefore a man, a drunkard, he, by his drinking liquor, it is tasting so nice. But at least for me, if you give me drop of liquor, it is so pungent, because I tasted rectified spirit when I was in medical practice, you see. It is so pungent, so… Just like burns the tongue. You see? So one man's food is another man's poison. That is all. But actually, in this material world this standard of happiness is equal. It is simply, this is called māyā, that he does not know that he is working so hard, but he is thinking that "I am becoming happy."

Śyāmasundara: From the graphs from Darwin and the evolutionists, there is an idea that…

Prabhupāda: Sometimes we see by some rich men in your country and here also, they will run (indistinct). First of all he becomes fatty by eating more. Then again he hasn't got to do in the office, anything, so he runs four miles, you see. He does not think this is labor; this is enjoyment. Similarly, the māyā, under the influence of māyā, everyone is working very hard, but he is thinking "I am enjoying."

Śyāmasundara: There is this idea in James's philosophy and others' also, since Darwin…

Prabhupāda: Sitting in this portion… [break] If I say "This is my portion," and if you are sitting in another portion and you say this is your portion, so by chance if I step in your portion you become angry, or you step in my portion… We forget that we have come here temporarily to sit down. Why shall I demark like this, "This is my portion," "This is my portion"? So the system is already there, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. The Īśopaniṣad says that whatever is allotted to you, you may be satisfied with that. But they are not satisfied in that way. I am trying to encroach upon your, I mean to say, possession, you are trying to encroach upon my possession. Or we have actually all forgotten that we are all sons of God. This planet is given to us to live, so let us produce according to the methods and eat and live peacefully and remember God. That we are not doing. The Americans, they have got… What is the area of your land?

Śyāmasundara: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can measure it is about 3000 miles by 3000 miles. And whereas India is 1000 miles. What is the area of India? Maybe 1000 miles by 800 miles, whereas in America 3000 miles by 3000 miles. And the population is one quarter of India's. The land is four times than India, but the population is one quarter of India. So they can produce enough. Actually they are producing enough. And that can be distributed to the portion where the food is a scarcity. And that is arrangement of God. The land and the water given by God is sufficient for the whole population. Not only human beings-all beasts, birds… Sufficient food. But we are, I mean to say, mismanaging the whole thing. Therefore we find that India is poverty-stricken and America is throwing grains in the water. So actually, if we take the perfection made by God, that "This planet belongs to us, we human beings, and it is God's property, so let us live peacefully…" But…, but no. That is māyā. So therefore the whole solution of the problem is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people will understand that "We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa's. This land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, so let us enjoy our father's property without fighting…" That they will not do. And they will accuse that God has made incomplete. That is māyā. Otherwise from God's side everything is complete.

pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ

pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate

pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya

pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate

[Iso Invocation]

Śyāmasundara: His very quotation in this regard is, "The world is a pluralism of which the unity is not fully experienced as yet. The universe…"

Prabhupāda: That they have to understand through Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a fact. Not as yet. Because they do not know the verse in the Bhagavad-gītā that "You are not proprietor." Neither you are Chinese, neither you are Americans. This they have to know. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, nāhaṁ vipra na ca narapati. He does not identify Himself with this tabernacle identifications, with this body.

Śyāmasundara: So where we differ from James is that we say that the truth exists, and it is revealed to a person…

Prabhupāda: As he becomes…

Śyāmasundara: …as he experiences it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or as he becomes wiser.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is born fool. Either Mr. James or Mr. something, they are all born fools.

Śyāmasundara: Whereas he says that "The truth develops as I experience it."

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that experience you have to take from a man who is experienced. Just like he wants to philosophize, he is trying to distribute his experience. But he does not like to take others' experience. That is the defect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the universe continually grows in quantity by new experiences that graft themselves upon the older mass.

Prabhupāda: This older mass, that we (indistinct) should (indistinct). Therefore our policy is that we should gather experience from a person who is already experienced.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that that person's experience will be transcended by another person's experience.

Prabhupāda: No. We will meet a person whose experience cannot be transcended, cannot be surpassed. We take experience from him. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can become wiser than Kṛṣṇa; therefore we take directly, experience from Kṛṣṇa. That is our standard. We don't accept any experience from a secondary man.

Śyāmasundara: So perhaps due to Darwin, these men, they don't think that truth exists independently of man's experience. They think that truth is developing as man evolves.

Prabhupāda: No. Because he is imperfect, he does not know what is truth. The same experience: because he cannot hear, other who is hearing is answering and he cannot hear him, so he thinks that he is dumb, deaf. Ātmavan manyate jagat. The difficulty is that everyone thinks others on his own standard. If a fool, he thinks others fool. So that is not the fact. We have to take experience from a person whose experience nobody can surpass. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni bhaviṣyāni [Bg. 7.26]. He says that "I know past, present, future, everything." So who knows past, present, future, everything? Therefore we have to take experience from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa that "You taught this philosophy to the sun-god-how I am to believe this?" Because Kṛṣṇa… Arjuna thought that "Kṛṣṇa is my friend, my cousin-brother. He is of my age. How is that I can believe that He taught this philosophy to the sun-god." This was not for Arjuna. This question was raised for us. So Kṛṣṇa replied that "Both you and Me were present. We took many times appearances. But you have forgotten. I do not forget." That is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, ordinary living entity and God.

Śyāmasundara: So his definition of reality-reality equals pure experience. He says that reality equals pure…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we should go to the perfect experienced personality; then we can know reality. From his definition it is concluded that we must go to the perfect experienced person and understand what is reality. That is our process.

Śyāmasundara: The realized person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we can know what is reality. I cannot know what is reality, but if I go to the perfect experienced personality, he can tell me what is reality.

Viśāla: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Your Divine Grace, it mentions that there are three processes: the transcendental process, the speculative philosophical process, and the materialistic process. The devotees go to the transcendental process to get perfect knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viśāla: Parampara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that 40,000,000…, "Thousands of years before, I spoke this philosophy to Vivasvān"-we accept it. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is an aspect of chance in nature.

Prabhupāda: Nature means always changing.

Śyāmasundara: Chance.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Chance. Accident. That there is an aspect of accident.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We don't accept that. If there would have been accident, so many planets are rotating in, and so forth… There is no collision. There is no accident. But in your motorcar there is so many accidents, and people are dying.

Śyāmasundara: He sees in our human conduct that we have the choice to make certain decisions, certain…

Prabhupāda: Decision means because you are imperfect, human beings are imperfect, so their machine, these motorcars, there are so many accidents, so many killing. But because God is so perfect, although all the planets are rotating in their speed, just like this earth is rotating… What is the speed? At least in twenty-four hours it is completing 25,000 miles. That means its speed is about 1000 miles at least. And similarly, other planets are also moving, similarly. And the sun planet is moving at 16,000 miles per minute or second, calculated. But all these planets are moving in this way, so much speed, but they are not colliding. The perfect arrangement is there, and they are floating. How it is possible? This is accidental? Do you think this is accidental?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says it like this, that there are alternative courses of action. For every possibility there are several other possibilities. So that for instance a man can make a decision, a choice, to take different, alternative way. So he says that nature works in that way also.

Prabhupāda: No. Nature is not working that way. Nature is working very perfectly. We can see. Just after… So perfect that the astronomers, they are calculating that on such and such date there will be an eclipse, and it will be seen in India; it will not be seen in Europe; and exactly at this time the eclipse will begin. So how they are calculating unless there is a rigid law? How it is possible? They are calculating mathematically. The general matter that two plus two is always four, not that by accident it becomes five. That is not possible. So the nature's law is working in that way. Otherwise how one year before you can calculate this solar eclipse and lunar eclipse so rightly? And they can say that from this country it will be seen, and from this country it will be not seen. That means the position of the sun, moon and everything, of the latitude and longitude, everything is so nicely done that you can make calculations very perfectly. How you can say accident? There is no accident.

Devānanda: In the Bhagavad-gītā even the human behavior is predicted like that. Through the later chapters it is described how people will act in different modes of nature, and they all behave that way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like in Bhāgavata it is calculated that lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. In the Kali-yuga, in this age, people will think by keeping their long hair he has become beautiful. Now, then, see all the hippies. That is written in the Bhāgavatam in India. How it is happening in Europe? Now the Indians also are imitating. So five thousand years before, this was written, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam.

Śyāmasundara: So would even accidents between two automobiles, that would not really be an accident?

Prabhupāda: Because it is imperfect, therefore there is an accident.

Śyāmasundara: Oh! It is an accident?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That is not determined by any…

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhavānanda: That's not determined even by karma?

Prabhupāda: What?

Bhavānanda: It is not determined even by karma?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In higher sense it is also like that. That means from God's eyes even the so-called accident is also predestined.

Devānanda: Nothing can be outside of the law of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: His definition of the world is that it is the stuff of pure experience-that matter, mind, everything is made up of experience.

Prabhupāda: Whose experience? Your experience?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say whose experience. Just experience.

Prabhupāda: What does it mean? Experience, there are different types of experience. Your experience is different from my experience. Then we have to calculate whose experience.

Śyāmasundara: He says the substance called experience sometimes manifests in mind, sometimes manifests as matter. So, for instance, the substance of these flowers is made up of the experience gathered from previous flowers.

Prabhupāda: Whose experience? I am asking whose experience? It is not your experience, so nice flowers. You have not made it.

Śyāmasundara: Presumably the flower's experience.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. The flower's experience. (laughs) Just see.

Śyāmasundara: He just calls this pure experience. He doesn't say whose experience.

Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect. He is speculating, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Isn't everything we see a product of experience?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose experience? That is my question.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say, so…

Prabhupāda: He does not know.

Śyāmasundara: Whose experience.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's experience. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. This is the Vedic version. The Supreme is so much equipped with different kinds of energies. That energy means experience. You can apply your energy if you have got experience. You can apply your energy of drawing a figure, providing you have got experience.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, all this display of this universe or anything creation, cosmic manifestations, this is designed by the Supreme, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva. Multi-energies. Just like this flower. We have got experience that if you paint a flower, it requires so much experience to handle the brush and the colors. So similarly, this is certainly proof of experience, but His energy is acting so nicely, we see that the flower is coming automatically. And the same example I have given so many times, that nowadays in electronics, just like this, so many mechanical arrangement is within there. But I say "putt,"-I push on this one button. One who does not know, he sees, "Oh, this is moving so wonderfully." No. There is experience.

Śyāmasundara: The Darwinists, for instance, would say that this flower through time had the experience that if it produced a nice odor, more bees would come to pollinate it and continue the species. So that the experience is passed on in the gene or the seed of the flower, so…

Prabhupāda: Whose experience passed?

Śyāmasundara: The flower's experience.

Prabhupāda: The flower has got experience?

Śyāmasundara: Don't all living things have experience?

Prabhupāda: No. All the living things are experienced, but ultimately they are put into certain condition by the experience of the Supreme. And the flavor of the flower is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. There are many flowers, but all of them have no flavor. It must be the arrangement of somebody else who has given flavor to some flowers. He has given somebody beauty and somebody not. Otherwise who will deny beauty? If it had been done by his own experience, then everyone would have been beautiful or every flower would have given flavor. Where is that experience? That means either you say flower's experience or your experience, it is conducted by another, superior experience. What is that?

Devānanda: Would another conception be that Kṛṣṇa is not only the experienced since time immemorial but He is also the experiencer now? He, being the prime enjoyer, enjoyment means experience. He knows nothing but enjoying, so all His experience is enjoying. All His enjoying is His experience. That experience…

Prabhupāda: That means that the sum and substance, that is supremely experienced, past, present and future. Unless He is supremely experienced, how He can know future? Past and present…, past, present and future for us, because of the time, eternal time… I am a fragmental production of this time; therefore there is a beginning of my appearance, date. And when I disappear, there is a date of my disappearance. And within this date of appearance and disappearance, there is past, present and future. So my past, present and future and an ant's past, present and future and Brahmā's past, present… They are all different.

Śyāmasundara: Your experience after you, your body finishes, your experience is passed on, so that everything that we see-doors, walls, bodies, minds-everything is made up of previous experience. So and so learned how to build a door this way, and it was passed on…

Prabhupāda: That previous experience of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I was sometimes thinking of Africa, I think. They have made their houses almost like India. I have see that this is the Indian style. I have told you that this is Indian style. So how the Africans got my Indian's experience or the Indian got the African experience? So actually, the Indians did not take experience from Africans, nor the Africans took the experience from the Indians. It is experience of the Supersoul.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So just like a man…

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: [Bg. 15.15] "I am sitting in everyone's heart." Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca, "I am giving experience." So when the Africans are constructing a house or cottage like the Indians, that is not that the Africans came to India and learned this experience. Or the Indians are constructing a cottage just like the Africans, that does not mean that… Several times I have told you that so far as the pigeon is concerned, the sparrow, I mean to say, either American or Indian, they are of the same size and doing the same thing.

Śyāmasundara: I think that we have discussed this before under the categories of acquired knowledge and intuitive knowledge, that some knowledge is acquired, experienced; some knowledge is intuitive.

Prabhupāda: So the pigeons or the sparrows or the doves are doing the same thing in India as in America. It does not mean these pigeons have gone to America from India.

Śyāmasundara: So it's intuitive.

Prabhupāda: But because they are Kṛṣṇa's… As Paramātmā is there, within the heart of the pigeon in India and America, they are acting similarly. Therefore original experience comes from God. And He says that "I know everything past, present, and future." That is real experience.

Śyāmasundara: So his definition of reality is pure experience, or…

Prabhupāda: He cannot give any definition of reality because he has not experienced. He has not perfectly experienced, so how he can give the definition of reality? What definition he is giving, that is not reality. He has no experience. He is developing experience. So how he can give a definition of reality?

Śyāmasundara: Actually, he is defining the process.

Prabhupāda: What is that process?

Śyāmasundara: The process is to understand reality, but he is not describing reality.

Prabhupāda: He says that reality?

Śyāmasundara: He says that reality is the stream of consciousness or the flux of life.

Prabhupāda: A jugglery of words, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: One's consciousness, as it develops more and more conscious, then he becomes more and more aware of reality.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is the guarantee that he'll develop consciousness fully?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. What if a man develops into a madman? Does that make him more aware of reality?

Prabhupāda: That definition we can give him. When a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is contacted with reality.

Devānanda: It's only when a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious or actually reaches the reality, then he can be sure that the process does lead to the reality. He is speculating that this process will lead to the reality, but he doesn't know it for sure, because it has not actually brought him to the point of reaching the reality.

Prabhupāda: Of course, to reach the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform the process is not man-made.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: The process is also God-made. Just like Kṛṣṇa said that, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the process. This is not man-made; this is God-made. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is God-made. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante [Bg. 7.14]. This is God-made. So to come to Kṛṣṇa conscious platform also, you have to follow the God-made method, not your method. You cannot give any definition.

Śyāmasundara: But he has a philosophy of religion. And he says that the believer in God has a greater chance than the doubter to discover truth and to gain…

Prabhupāda: That… Vinaśyati. Those who are doubtful, they vinaśyati; they are finished.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that at least the believer has a greater chance to gain practical advantages by his belief, whereas the doubter doesn't stand any chance to gain…

Prabhupāda: That is good. That is good. Then whether he is a believer or a doubter?

Śyāmasundara: He is a believer, but the extent of his belief we'll discuss in a few moments. He says that the one who disbelieves faces the added risk of losing any chance of discovering the truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So it is better to believe, even though one doesn't know for sure. It is better to believe because it gives one more chance of discovering the truth. He says that we have the right to believe in God, even in the absence of absolute proof. Even though there is no absolute proof, he says, of the existence of God, still we have the right to believe in God because this helps us to get closer to the truth. It gives us a better chance.

Prabhupāda: That means he accepts God is truth and that He's existing. Does he say like that or not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says there is no absolute proof, but…

Prabhupāda: But that is proof.

Śyāmasundara: …by my belief I get more…

Prabhupāda: That he is saying, that if somebody believes, he has got greater chance. Unless the fact is there, simply by believing, how there is chance?

Śyāmasundara: He says that by this belief I get some strength, some happiness, some practical advantage; therefore I have the right to believe, because I get a practical benefit.

Prabhupāda: So practical benefit… Suppose you are getting some warmth, so you believe there must be some fire. So I believe. Unless there is fire, how there is warmth?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So the belief itself is the proof.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing about James as distinct from many other philosophers is that he felt the personal experience of God.

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got personal experience of God.

Devānanda: But he recognized it as such.

Prabhupāda: Somebody He reveals; sometimes he does not believe-He hides. Everyone has got. Everyone. A human being, every human being has got.

Devānanda: That's true. The only experience…

Prabhupāda: No, no. The atheists, simply artificially they cover. Naturally he has belief. Naturally he has belief. Even in this primitive stage, as soon as there is something wonderful, natural phenomenon, they offer respects, the primitive man. The man in the jungle, as soon as he sees a big ocean, he offers his respects. As soon as he sees a big mountain, he offers his respects. As soon as there is a thunderbolt… This is called realization of the śakti. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śakti. So this is śakta stage, realization of God by seeing something wonderful. That is śakta stage. Then after this state, śakta, saurīyam. Śakta stage, worshiping the energy of God-everything is energy; then śaktyopāsanam, then śaktasaurīyam, then suryopāsanam, worshiping the sun, because it is the reservoir of all energies according to the material world. Śakta, saurīya then gāṇapatya. The gāṇapatya means that is humanitarian. That energy is distributed-pantheism, humanitarian. Śakta, sauriyam, gāṇapatya, then śaiva, you go on. Then Vaiṣṇava. Impersonal then personalist.

Śyāmasundara: There is also the demigods in charge of those different departments? Different demigods…

Prabhupāda: That is gāṇapatya. Gaṇapati, the worshiper of Gaṇeśa. Gāṇapatya.

Śyāmasundara: Śakti.

Prabhupāda: Śakti, Sūrya, Gaṇapati, Śiva, and then Viṣṇu-pañcopāsanam. This is called pañcopāsanam.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind is not dependent upon the existence of the body; therefore the mind may survive the body…

Prabhupāda: That is fact. That, that we say. The gross body, when it is finished, the subtle body-mind, intelligence, ego-remains. That carries me to another gross body. Just like the example is, there is a flavor. You cannot see, but it is carried by the air. If it is coming from the rose garden, you say, "Oh, very nice flavor." You cannot see it, but it is carried by the subtle air. Similarly, I, the spirit soul, when I give up this gross body, then I am carried. I have got body still. That is subtle body-mind, intelligence, and ego. And according to my desire, that subtle body grows into another gross body.

Śyāmasundara: So the mind and the intelligence, they are not material? That means…

Prabhupāda: Material. Subtle.

Śyāmasundara: But they don't die? They die also? The mind…

Prabhupāda: No. Dies and it disappears. Disappear… When you are liberated, then you have no more material mind.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. But you carry your material mind throughout all of your lifetimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long as you are not liberated.

Śyāmasundara: The same mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The same mind.

Śyāmasundara: So the mind I have now I have always had.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But the body I have now…

Prabhupāda: The body changes. This is also material; that is material. But the subtle material accompanies me, unless I am liberated.

Śyāmasundara: So the subtle material is capable of longer life. Very long life.

Devānanda: It is acquiring saṁskāras as it goes from body to body, developing new bodies it acquires new saṁskāras and carrying…

Śyāmasundara: The mind doesn't deteriorate or get old.

Prabhupāda: Changing, that is a mind's business. Changing. Saṅkalpa, vikalpa-accepting and rejecting.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So the mind I have now, the mind I have now…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …I may not have had in the past.

Prabhupāda: No. No. Why not? The same mind?

Śyāmasundara: Same mind.

Prabhupāda: Rejecting these circumstances, accepting another circumstances.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, the function is the same, but the contents may be different.

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Just like you are sitting here. You can, by the dictation of the mind, you can go somewhere else. You can immediately go to your American home. The mind will carry you.

Śyāmasundara: He had a vague idea of Brahman realization, by saying that the consciousness…

Prabhupāda: Everything is vague idea.

Śyāmasundara: The consciousness eventually enters into the, what he called the mother sea.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: The mother sea.

Prabhupāda: Mother sea?

Śyāmasundara: The mother ocean.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: He says that the consciousness eventually enters into the mother ocean. That is as far as he could speculate.

Devānanda: Let the bubbles go on popping in the ocean. The bubble bursting into the ocean is the mother sea.

Prabhupāda: Merges into the…

Śyāmasundara: Merges into the…

Prabhupāda: …supreme consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Something like that. He says that experience and not philosophy or theology should form the basis of religious life; that experience should be our religious life and not just philosophy, but actual applied practice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Philosophy will give us the idea of the goal, and our practical application is to give us the right path.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the life of religion is mankind's most important function.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. We say also, without religion a living entity is no better than an animal. So that is very important.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that the evidence for God's existence is found primarily in one's personal inner experience. One has an intuitive experience that God exists.

Prabhupāda: God exists. Just like we say always that God is supposed to be the supreme father. So as I know, even though I did not see my father, but still I know that I had father, or I have father. So if God is the supreme father, He must be there.

Śyāmasundara: So presumably you could not convince someone through logic or…

Prabhupāda: This is logic. This is logic.

Śyāmasundara: …like that, that God exists, unless he has a personal inner experience that God exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very simple logic. Because I am born of my father, my father is born of his father, his father is born of his father, go on, go on, and find out the supreme father. After all, there must have been a beginning of all the fathers. So how can I deny the supreme father?

Śyāmasundara: Unless I have the experience, inner experience of that…

Prabhupāda: This is inner experience. It is very simple. Because my father is, therefore I am born of him. He is born of his father, he is born of his father. Go on, that's it. That is, our śāstra says, ultimately you will come to Brahmā, the father of this universe. The Brahmā is also born of Nārāyaṇa, how you say, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and the Garbhodakaśāyī, wherefrom He comes? Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Wherefrom Mahā-Viṣṇu comes? From Saṅkarṣaṇa. Wherefrom Saṅkarṣaṇa comes? From Nārāyaṇa. Wherefrom Nārāyaṇa comes? He comes from Baladeva. Wherefrom does Baladeva comes? Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the Brahma-saṁhitā says,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

He is the original cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: He makes a few comments about religion. He says that "The religious experience is unique, and it enables the individual to realize that the world he perceives is part of a spiritual universe which alone gives the sensory world value, and that man's proper goal is to unite himself with that higher universe. That prayer or inner communion with the universal spirit or God is the means whereby spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, occurring in the phenomenal world. And that religious faith imparts a new zest to life, taking the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism, and that religion contributes some assurance of safety and peace and teaches love in human relationships."

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: He says some nice things about…

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: But practically, the practical aspect of religion, that it imparts new zest to life, that it produces psychological and material effects, like that. But he didn't believe that God was unlimited. That was his… He believed that God was somehow limited; because there is evil, because evil exists, that God is somehow limited.

Prabhupāda: He does not know that evil does not exist independently. He does not know. In our śāstras it says that evil is the back side of God. But it is not independent of God. But either back side or front side, it is God; therefore it is absolute. I cannot neglect my back side. I cannot say that "You can beat me on my back side. Go on, kick me." That I cannot say. The back side is as important as the front side. But comparatively it is explained that evil is back side, pāpa, sin. That is back side of God.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we can cooperate with God…

Prabhupāda: That means when you are not in front side of God, you are sinful.

Devānanda: If one doesn't stand before God, he stands in darkness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we can cooperate…

Prabhupāda: Those who are sinful, they cannot stand in front of God. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam: unless one has completely uncontaminated from the reaction of pāpa,

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

[Bg. 7.28]

So one cannot be Kṛṣṇa conscious unless he is freed from all sinful reactions. But if you say, "Then I am so much sinful. How can I become Kṛṣṇa conscious? It will just take a long, long time." Yes. It will take a long, long time, but if you accept Kṛṣṇa's order immediately, just "You surrender unto Me and I will give you relief from all sinful reactions," so you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so your sinful life immediately becomes pious life. That is a fact. What you think, Viśāla Prabhu?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You are hearing?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa, immediately one becomes pious. Is that not a fact?

Viśāla: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all for him.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Now, Mr. … (end)

DEWEY.SYA

John Dewey

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing the American philosopher John Dewey. Last time we were discussing William James, who is called a pragmatist. His philosophy deals…, believes that practice is better than theory. So this John Dewey is more or less a successor in this same line of philosophizing. He says that practical consequences are the only valid test of truth, and he says that the proof of an idea consists in its being subject to predictable results. The idea is not true unless the results of the idea are predictable.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He is also…

Prabhupāda: That is practical. That is practical. No theoretical knowledge is necessary.

Śyāmasundara: But do the results of an idea have to be predictable?

Prabhupāda: Idea may…, if it is a concocted idea, the result cannot be ascertained. If it is fact, then the result can be predicted.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the object of inquiry or asking questions is belief; that because we want to believe something we often ask questions in order to find something to believe in. This is the nature of inquiry.

Prabhupāda: So that is the Vedānta-sūtra: to find out the ultimate cause of everything, the inquiries about the Absolute Truth. So these inquiries should be made to the person who knows; otherwise, what is the use of inquiring? That is the Vedic injunction. If you want to inquire about truth, then you must approach the bona fide spiritual master, guru. Guru means bona fide. But because there are so many pseudo gurus at the present moment, therefore we have to add this word "bona fide." Otherwise, guru means bona fide. One who is not bona fide, he cannot be guru. But people are misled by persons, pseudo or false gurus; therefore you have to add this word "bona fide." Otherwise there is no necessity of adding this word.

Śyāmasundara: He believes that it is the nature of inquiry itself to want to believe something, even on the small, everyday level. If I want to know who put these flowers here, because I want to believe the truth about these flowers, I ask, I inquire.

Prabhupāda: So inquiry means to know the truth. Therefore our inquiry should be made to a person who knows the truth. Otherwise the inquiry has no valid position. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is Vedic injunction. The inquiry should be genuine and the answer should come from a genuine person. Then it is all right.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the final outcome of inquiry is the fulfillment of human needs by practical action, to change the external environment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A human being, unless he is inquisitive about the Absolute Truth, he is not considered sufficiently developed in human form. Unless this enquiry is there, about self, what I am, he is not considered sufficiently developed in his consciousness. He is still in ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: But his perspective is that by inquiring, we find out what is wrong with our environment, our external environment.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And we take practical actions to change that environment and thus fulfill human needs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. That inquiry will clear everything. If the person is serious, if he inquires what is the aim of human life, then he is supposed to be intelligent. Otherwise, the animals, they cannot inquire what is the aim of life. They are simply eating, sleeping. That's all. But a human being must be inquisitive what is the value of life.

Śyāmasundara: But is our… Is the result of our inquiry to change the external environment?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are seriously inquiring and if you know things as they are, then we can change our activities. What we are preaching? That your business is to know Kṛṣṇa. So if people actually take this movement seriously, then his mode of life will be changed. That is practically happening. All our students, they were leading a certain type of life, and since they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their whole program has been changed.

Śyāmasundara: We have come to the same question we were discussing with Marx: whether changing external environment is prerequisite to improvement or changing the consciousness is prerequisite. And you answered before, in Marx's case, that if we change the consciousness, then the environment becomes changed…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …rather than vice versa. Also, to a certain extent the other way. If we change the environment, the consciousness changes.

Prabhupāda: It is the cause and effect. One is the cause of the other; other is the cause of the other. But actually it is the consciousness that requires to be changed-either by hearing from authority or by circumstances. There are two processes to achieve knowledge. This, in Bengali it is said, dekhe sekhara, teke sekhara. When one is actually in an awkward circumstances, that's a fact. So "This kind of way of life is not good. I have to change it." This is called tekhe sekhara. When he is actually in danger, he takes precautions of danger. But one who is intelligent, he understands by hearing that "If you do like that, then you will fall in danger." So that man is intelligent who learns by hearing from the authorities. And one who actually experienced the awkward position, and then he changes his consciousness… That is also one of the processes, but this is better. Therefore our process is to approach the bona fide teacher and learn from him everything. That is brahmacārī life. Not by practical experience. That is Vedic knowledge. The experience is already there. You simply hear and take it. Then it becomes easier. But if you expect that "First of all let me fall down into the ditch, then I shall cry…" Better man is, he takes advice, "Don't go there. You'll fall down in the ditch." Just like Kālidāsa. Kālidāsa was in the beginning he was a great fool. So he was cutting a tree, sitting on the branch. So some intelligent men was going around, "What you are doing, nonsense? You shall fall down." He didn't care, but cutting, he actually fell down. Then, "Oh, you are very intelligent! How did you say? How did you foretold?" Then they saw that he was a first-class fool. So "This boy should be taken to the king's daughter to become her husband." The girl was so intelligent that the challenge was that "Any man who will defeat me in argument, I shall marry." But she was so intelligent that nobody could defeat. So all the learned scholars, the father was asking, "Bring me an intelligent boy to marry her." So they did not find any intelligent boy. Whoever comes, he is defeated. So they decided "Now, because she is so determined to have a very nice husband, we shall make this boy her husband, this fool number one." So they took him there and instructed that "That girl…" and he will show his finger like this. "You'll show this." So he was a fool, so "All right, I'll do that." So when he was brought to the girl, the girl held up one finger and he showed two fingers, and then the all the paṇḍitas, "Oh, the answer is given him. Your girl says eka brahma, 'Brahman is one.' " And he immediately answered (indistinct), "There is no two Brahma. Brahman is one." The girl also thought, "Yes, this boy is a genius." So in this way this foolish man was made her husband, and at night, when she came to understand that he was fool number one, she kicked him and asked him, "Get out of my room." So he became very insulted: "My wife has kicked me. I am so fool. So I shall make suicide by drowning in the water." He was crying and remembering the goddess of learning, that "I am so foolish, my dear mother Sarasvatī. You did not favor me, so I shall kill myself." With great lamentation he was going to die. At that time, Sarasvatī became very kind and she appeared, "Kālidāsa, why you are drowning this way?" "My mother, this is my position. I have been insulted by my wife because I am a fool." "All right, from henceforward you shall be very learned." "Oh, but I do not know…" "No, whatever you say, it will be all right." He got this benediction from mother Sarasvatī. He came back, then he was knocking the door. The wife said, "Who are you?" He replied, hastigrati vada viśeṣaṇa (?), "Somebody who can speak very learnedly." Then whatever he was replying, he became, by the grace of Sarasvatī, he became highly learned scholarly speaking. So Kālidāsa, with these four words he wrote four books that is very famous: the Kumāra-sambhava. He began with this word hasti, and the word raghu-vaṁśa kaścid. In this way he was (indistinct), and he became very famous by this. Hasti uttarasyandeśa himalayanarna naradi rajan uddhva paro toyanidhi balaja stita pratijñān eva mana danda (?). This is the beginning of Kumāra-sambhava. Kumāra-sambhava means Lord Śiva's marriage with the daughter of Himalaya. He begins describing Himalaya: hasti uttarasyandesi himalayanamadira uttare syan deśe (?) (indistinct), in the northern side there is a king of mountains known as Himalaya. Somebody interprets it that is Arctic region. Urdhva pare yato nidhi upa rājan (?). North and east, there are two oceans-I think this is Atlantic and Pacific-abagajan-touching-sthita pratijñāna eva mana gandha (?)-as the whole (indistinct). In this way he became… He became famous poet by the grace of Sarasvatī. In the beginning he was cutting the same branch on the tree on which he was sitting.

Śyāmasundara: So maybe there is some hope for these philosophers.

Prabhupāda: What?

Śyāmasundara: Maybe there is some hope for these…

Prabhupāda: Yes. By the grace of the superior, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **, we sing every day. If there is blessings of higher authority, everything can be achieved. There is no doubt.

Śyāmasundara: He puts forward five steps for solving problems. (aside conversation-indistinct) The first step is, he says, to observe a problem and think of its nature. The second step is intellectualize the problem further: to analyze the total of difficulties. Three, you make hypothesis which constitutes possible solutions. Four, you analyze these hypotheses in the light of past experience. And five, you put these possible solutions into practice experimentally, and to ascertain the results in actual experience. So his method is that… So the idea is that problems are only solved when the possible solutions are put into practice and we experiment and get a result. Then we find solutions to problems. But not simply by theorizing, but by practice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process of solving problems is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So we take Kṛṣṇa's shelter and our problems are solved. As it is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, He is the reservoir of all mystic power, yogeśvara. So Bhakta's business is instead of endeavoring to become a yogi, he takes shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is yogeśvara, the master of all mystic power. We take it that this is the solution of our problems. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te, instead of… I was reciting the verse from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, bālasya neha saranay vicinvam (?). So there are different kinds of methods of solving the problems. The best method is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, and all problems are solved.

Śyāmasundara: On a social scale as well?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. Social scale also.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is… John Dewey's idea is that…

Prabhupāda: Just like on the political scale, the Pāṇḍavas took shelter of Kṛṣṇa. There was a political problem, so it was solved in their favor, in the Pāṇḍavas favor. Political means social, political, everything.

Śyāmasundara: This Dewey's idea is that all sciences must be subservient to human needs.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So he believes in the social sciences, the educational sciences, that…

Prabhupāda: Our educational system is tan manye adhītam uttamam. One who is a devotee and executing the nine different processes of devotional service, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23], Prahlāda Mahārāja says, tan manye adhītam uttama, "I think he is first-class scholar. He has studied nicely everything." One who has… Caitanya-caritāmṛta kaj says also that kṛṣṇa ye bali sevalacasi (?), unless one is highly intelligent, he cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Bhagavad-gītā also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of experimenting for solving all problems, when he is actually wise, at that time he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā [Bg. 7.19], he's first-class, learned scholar.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dewey's definition of truth is that truth is the means of satisfying human needs and improving social conditions which create problems. So he sees truth as a practical tool…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …to solve social problems.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Social problems… We have mismanaged social problems because Kṛṣṇa is perfect, so whatever He has created, that is perfect. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Iso Invocation]. So everything is perfect, but because we want to disturb Kṛṣṇa by disobeying His order, things appear to be imperfect. (aside in Hindi) So if we remain faithful to Kṛṣṇa, there is no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So we are presenting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as the solution of all problems. Let any intelligent man come and discuss with us, and we think that we shall be able to convince him that this is the only suggestion. (Hindi aside with guest)

Śyāmasundara: He says that truth is useful and it is public and is objective, and it benefits to society, not merely the individual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That truth people do not know. The Bhagavad-gītā gives us information of that truth: na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that the ultimate truth, ultimate objective is Viṣṇu. Without reference to Viṣṇu they are trying to solve the problems of the world differently. That is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: How does worship of Viṣṇu solve social problems? Just like in Calcutta there are more social problems than practically anywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu… In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, it is said that varṇāśrama-dharma. Varnāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Any man who executes this varṇāśrama-dharma, he satisfies Viṣṇu. The varṇāśrama-dharma is there, and the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas, and the śūdras. So according as they are prescribed, how the brāhmaṇas should live, how the kṣatriyas should live, how the…, then there is no trouble. The whole problem is solved. But they have killed the varṇāśrama-dharma. They are now all śūdras. The śūdras, how they can make solutions? Śūdras means nonintelligent persons. So what they can do? They are running on democratic government voted by the śūdras. So what these rascal śūdras will do? They require… Śūdras are meant for serving the higher sections-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And if the śūdras are given government… Just like we are seeing, in Africa they have been given independence, but they have not improved. The Englishman is still controlling, the Indians are still controlling. And what is the meaning of their so-called self-ruling? We have seen it, still they are poor, because they are śūdras. Śūdras have no brain. In America also, the whole America once belonged to the Red Indians. Why they could not improve? The land was there. Why these foreigners, the Europeans, came and improved? So śūdras cannot do this. They cannot make any correction. Now people are becoming śūdras by so-called education. So they cannot make any solution of the problems. If that daiva varṇāśrama again established, then the whole problem will be solved. That was the plan of my Guru Mahārāja, daiva-varṇāśrama city. Daiva varṇāśrama means that it is stated by Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. By qualification, by the work, one should be brāhmaṇa. By qualification, by work, one should be kṣatriya. By qualification, by work, one should be vaiśya. By qualification, by work, one should be śūdra. When this order is established, that is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Then Viṣṇu, Lord, will be happy, and He will give us… He is already giving. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Actually, He's giving us all the necessities of life. But because we are now śūdras and devoid of devotional service, so prakṛti is controlling the supply. That is the difference. That is stated in connection with Pṛthu Mahārāja. Pṛthu Mahārāja, because there was not enough production, he wanted to kill the pṛthvī. So he says that "That's all right, but I am controlling because production is meant for performing yajña. These rascals, the demons, they are simply eating. They are not performing yajña. Therefore I am controlling." Saho yajña pratiṣṭhita. The whole plan is that the living entities, especially the human beings, they are meant for performing yajña. Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu. The Bhagavad-gītā also says, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā na tyājam. You cannot give up these three things, even if you are in the renounced order of life. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā. It is just like our Vaiṣṇava sannyāsīs, they are performing saṅkīrtana yajña and they are distributing Kṛṣṇa love. And to keep themselves fit, they are observing the rules and regulations and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā. Following the rules and regulations and regularly chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is tapasya. And this is the best dāna, charity. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvāmī: namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. "You are the most munificent incarnation because You are giving love of Godhead." So those who are distributing the idea of love of Godhead, they are the best charitably disposed man. So we, we have not given up yajña-dāna-tapaḥ. That is not to be renounced. Because a sannyāsī is renounced. Renounced means he should renounce his sense gratification, not renounce these things, yajña-dana-tapaḥ.

Śyāmasundara: So these three items are necessary to solve social…

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes!

Śyāmasundara: So everyone should try…

Prabhupāda: For everyone. Especially if…, not everyone. Yajña for the brahmacārīs, dāna for the householders, gṛhastha, and tapa for the renounced. Tapasya. If it is not done all, at least these three classes of men should not give up their occupation, yajña-dāna-tapaś caiva pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā, pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. Even if you think that you are very highly elevated, still, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā is necessary for you. You should not give it up.

Śyāmasundara: Dewey says that the ethical goals are fulfillment of human needs and desires, that all morality should lead to this goal of fulfillment of human needs and desires.

Prabhupāda: The human need is to get out of the clutches of māyā. That is the actual need. Janma-maraṇa-mokṣaya, that is the need. But the modern society, they do not know what is needed. They are making simply plans, uselessly. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply laboring hard, they do not know the need. The real need is to get out of the clutches of repetition of birth and death in different forms. But people do not know this. They are simply concocting ideas. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ. Durāśayā, hopeless, or they are trying to educate something which is impossible. They are making plans to be happy in this material world. And by the United Nations it is impossible. That is not intelligence. He says… We can say in the United Nations clearly that "Your, this attempt will be failure." It is already failure. (aside in Hindi) Hariṁ vinā naiva mṛtiṁ taranti. What is the solution? You cannot make any solution of this repetition of birth and death, disease and old age. What do you mean by solution? The real problems are there. So they do not know what are the problems, how to solve them. So andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. Some blind leaders, so-called leaders, they are leading other blind men. This is going on. They do not know what is the aim of life, how to make solutions of the problems. They do not know.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there must be a continuous probe of human beings in moral sensitivity. In other words, that people must become more and more sensitive to moral values and that there must be practical realization of a better social world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Simply come forward and understand. Therefore we have made it society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society.

Śyāmasundara: He makes one statement. He says that "The good man is the man who, no matter how morally unworthy he has been, is moving to become something better."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "Growth itself is the only moral end."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. The devotee, even in the beginning he is found not in order, doing something wrong, still, because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is accepted as sādhu. Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Where one may say that there are so many discrepancies in his life and yet he is doing all right in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but he has not corrected his habits, the reply is, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śāśvac chāntiṁ nigacchati. Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his bad habits will be corrected very soon.

Śyāmasundara: So that as long as one is improving in his moral nature…

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is ultimate moral nature-take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and gradually all moral things will come. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. All good qualifications will come automatically if he sticks to these four principles-these regulative principles and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and abiding by the orders of the spiritual master. Then everything will come automatically.

Śyāmasundara: Moral qualities will follow?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: It's not that one has to develop them independently?

Prabhupāda: No. Automatically it will come. Because the good qualities are already there in the spirit soul, and it is being purified, uncovered by the material contamination. The original cult is coming out. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: What does the word "cult" mean?

Prabhupāda: Cult means… What do you mean by cult? Cult is an ordinary word.

Śyāmasundara: I've always thought cult meant something sectarian or…

Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. Cult means the natural occupation.

Revatīnandana: It usually means… A group with a common interest is usually called a cult. Some group with some common, agreed-upon interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is I was explaining this, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for everyone. It is meant for a certain group. Therefore you can take it as a cult, although it is meant for everyone. But generally we are accepted by the high-class intelligent men. Therefore we can call it cult.

Śyāmasundara: Same word, "cultivation" or "culture"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇanuśīlanam. The exact word is kṛṣṇānuśīlanam. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. That is cult, cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Favorably. Not Kṛṣṇa consciousness like Kamsa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how to kill Him. That is not ānukūlyena. That is not favorable. But you have to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably: How Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. How Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. And that is required. This cult is required. Hṛṣīkeṇa-hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir uttamam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When your senses will be purified and they will be engaged in serving Kṛṣṇa, satisfying Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no such thing as absolute good and bad but that each specific situation must be treated individually. There is no absolute good and bad; that each individual situation must be…

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that situation means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anything done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good. Anything done not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, it may be ethically, so-called ethically right-it has no use.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the greatest good…

Prabhupāda: That situation… (indistinct) That situation means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In practical life also we see that the soldier's killing, it is supported by the government. The same soldier killing for his personal satisfaction, he is condemned to death.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the greatest good is the elimination of the greatest evil or the fulfillment of man's greatest needs.

Prabhupāda: That's it. We follow that, that the highest objective, the ultimate objective is Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So becoming a Vaiṣṇava, the highest perfection of human life is achieved.

Śyāmasundara: So that greatest need is…

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The greatest need is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi with guest) Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the supreme consciousness. Yes. That is pure consciousness, Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Every living entity is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. He always remembers that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. It is my duty to serve Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that…

Prabhupāda: Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. If he remembers always this.

Devotee: Eternal position of the living entity…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he'll be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, perfect consciousness. But they are thinking that "I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God." That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the choice between good and bad is not made on theoretical grounds, but for reducing specific evils. In other words…

Prabhupāda: It is not theoretical that if you accept the universal form of God, then everything within the universe is part and parcel of that form. That is practical.

Śyāmasundara: But say there…

Prabhupāda: Like a big tree, the every leaf, every branch, every twig, every flower is a part and parcel of the whole tree. Similarly, virāṭ-rūpa. Apart from Kṛṣṇa's personal rūpa, the virāṭ-rūpa as it was manifested before Arjuna, if you take the virāṭ-rūpa, the whole universal form of the Lord, then anything within the universe is part and parcel of that virāṭ-rūpa, the resulting form.

Śyāmasundara: So the choice between a good and a bad action should be practiced to reduce evil, not just theoretical. That's his idea. That's his point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No theory. This is practical. Now, as a big machine, the screw is a part, so if every part works nicely, the machine goes nicely. So if we understand… Just like I think last night I was explaining mukha baho rūpa divya: the gigantic body, the brāhmaṇa class, they are the mouth. So one must do the duty of the mouth. The mouth speaks, vibrates and eats. So our proposition is to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Then the mouth duty, the brāhmaṇa's duty, is performed. Similarly, the kṣatriya's duty-again we come to that varṇāśrama-dharma. So everyone is factually part and parcel of God and executes his prescribed duty, then it is perfect.

varṇāśramācāravatā

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate puṁsāṁ

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

[Cc. Madhya 8.58]

If you want to satisfy the Supreme Lord, then you must execute the functions as they are prescribed in the varṇāśrama system. Then everything is all right. The same example: If all the parts of a machine is in order, working, it will make no trouble. If one of the screws, I mean, is slack, or it has fallen down, then another part is dislocated, that whole work is stopped. So we should consider in that way, that we are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So according to part and parcel, you must execute your duty-as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya, as śūdra. And the brāhmaṇa being head, he should give the direction. Therefore he is considered the guru of other varṇas. But he… Because if there is no head, no brāhmaṇa, then the whole thing is disturbed. And that is the position at the present moment. Actually there is no brāhmaṇa, or scarcity of brāhmaṇa. So others are not guided properly. Therefore there is chaos in the whole society. So we require to create some brāhmaṇas, and others should understand to abide by the direction of the brāhmaṇas. Then the whole society will be in order.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world can be made better by man's efforts, but that perfection is not possible.

Prabhupāda: No. Yes. In one sense it is all right, because this world is so made that you make it perfect today, again it deteriorates. Therefore in one sense we cannot make it perfect. That is a fact.

Śyāmasundara: But you can improve it?

Prabhupāda: Improve it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So it can be improved, in any bad condition, by… How you can improve? By this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As Kṛṣṇa says, "I am…" [break] Svarūpa means ādayaḥ. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same thing. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means you are living with Kṛṣṇa. And if you are living with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear? Just like Arjuna, fighting with Kṛṣṇa, he had no fear. Similarly, if you live with Kṛṣṇa and go on with Kṛṣṇa, then what is your fear?

Śyāmasundara: What is that quote you said last night in the taxi, padma, padma…

Prabhupāda: Padaṁ padaṁ yat vipadāṁ na teṣām.

samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ

mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ

bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ

padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām

[SB 10.14.58]

Śyāmasundara: And the purport?

Prabhupāda: And the purport is, one who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, for him, this ocean of nescience, bhavasamudra, because just like a small pit foot created by the cow's hoof.

Devotee: Footprint.

Prabhupāda: And this place wherein there is step by step danger, this is not God's place. That Kṛṣṇa also says. As soon as he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. He immediately becomes eligible to transfer to the spiritual world.

Śyāmasundara: So actually, we're removing people from danger, from evil, by making them Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Śyāmasundara: So this is a welfare activity.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is best welfare activity in the world. What others can do in comparison to this?

Śyāmasundara: They may be able to remove some of the temporary dangers…

Prabhupāda: Yes. To give some temporary benefit, but again he is fallen.

Śyāmasundara: Step by step there's danger. When we discussed the utilitarians…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) In Caitanya Mahāprabhu's address, namo mahā-vadānyāya. If I give some charity to a needy man, it will serve for a temporary period, but if you give him Kṛṣṇa-prema, then immediately he'll be transferred to the spiritual world.

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

[Cc. Madhya 19.53]

Mahā-vadānyāya. This is the most munificent path-to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa: "Whomever you meet, just deliver this message of Kṛṣṇa." That is best welfare activity in the world.

Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing the utilitarians, we discussed that their goal was to achieve what was desired by the people, to do whatever was required…

Prabhupāda: No. Desired by the people-happiness. But they are trying to give happiness temporary, and we are giving happiness direct. Just like Bhāgavata says, yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Purify your existence, and you'll get perpetual, eternal happiness, bliss. So everyone is working hard for happiness, but how happiness can be attained in diseased condition? So cure the disease and he'll get it eternal. That is… Here is a physician. If you go when there is ailment, if you go to him, "Sir, cure me." "Why?" because it is impediment to happiness. Similarly, the real disease is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. You cure this, then you get real happiness.

Śyāmasundara: These utilitarians said that activity should be to achieve all that is desired by the people, but Dewey says that activity should be to achieve what is worthy to be desired.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First thing is, people are desiring happiness. Whatever one may desire, the ultimate end is happiness. Nobody can deny this. But a diseased fellow, if he thinks that "I am happy," that is false happiness. A diseased man cannot be happy unless the disease is cured. Sometimes we go to a diseased person and ask, "How are you?" "Yes, I am all right." If he is all right, why is he lying down? He is not all right. He is artificially saying that "I am all right." What is this "all right"? Similarly, these foolish people, they are thinking, "I am happy." What is their happiness? If you have to die, then where is your happiness? Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. A real intelligent person will see that these are the things which are giving me distress: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So where is the happiness? Foolishly if we accept something as happiness, that is not happiness. Real happiness is when you are free from these four principles of distress: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Otherwise, where is your happiness? But if you think that "Although I am dying, I am happy," that is another thing, a fool's paradise.

Śyāmasundara: He says that "Desirable courses of action must meet specifiable conditions which are subject to prediction, and they must be based on judgments of experience." In other words, the desirable courses of action should be chalked out by experience, and they must be predictable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Predictable. Just like we don't want death. So if I get the chance to come to a position not to die, is it not predictable? You don't want to die, and if I say, "You will come to this position, you will not die…"

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Is there some experience that shows me that that is a predictable result?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Experience… You may not have experience, but the superior has got experience. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāmaṁ paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. He says that "If you come to Me, you will never come back again." Just see. Who can excel Kṛṣṇa's experience? Vedāhaṁ samatītāni: [Bg. 7.26] He knows past, present, and future, so you have to take His assertion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that "Judgments about values are judgments about the conditions and the results of experienced objects, judgments about that which should regulate the formation of our desires, affections and enjoyments." In other words, in order to place a value on something, to judge what is the value of a particular item, that we should base this judgment upon the results of experience. Then we can guide those things which we should enjoy, where our desires should be, where our affections should lie, upon experience.

Prabhupāda: That experience we may not have personally, but if you take advice from a person who has got experience, that is as good as my experience. Just like you are going somewhere, you are purchasing a ticket. You have no experience where you are going, or you do not know whether actually you will go, but because others have gone and come by purchasing a ticket, you take advantage of that experience and you purchase a ticket.

Śyāmasundara: He says that value equals satisfaction. In other words, the fulfillment of…

Prabhupāda: So unless you have faith in some person, how you can be satisfied? Therefore you should find out a person in whom you can place your faith. And who can be a better person than Kṛṣṇa?

Śyāmasundara: If certain specific conditions are met, then the satisfaction is transformed into a value. In other words, if my hunger is satisfied by eating a certain foodstuff, then this foodstuff is given value.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So Kṛṣṇa gives that value. Just like Kṛṣṇa gave the value in Bhagavad-gītā, and Arjuna in the beginning denied to fight, but he agreed to fight. He agreed to fight.

Śyāmasundara: Because he was satisfied by his faith in Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is required.

Śyāmasundara: He says that moral laws are comparable to physical laws. In other words, they are guidelines to elicit certain responses under given conditions. Just like if I throw a ball up, I know it is going to come down. So a moral law will guide me in the same way. If I act in a certain way, there will automatically be a certain result, a response.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we prescribe, ādau śraddhā tato sādhu saṅgasya. If you follow one after another, you get the result. If you have got faith, you make association with devotees. Then the next step, you will be eager to execute devotional service. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-sango 'thya bhajana-kriyā 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then all misgivings are eradicated. Then you become firm faith, niṣṭhā, then attachment, one after another. Unless you experience the next result, how can you make progress?

Śyāmasundara: Are there any moral guidelines to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Moral guidelines are there. That is given by Rūpa Gosvāmī, sato vṛtteḥ, sadho saṅge, utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt [Upadeśāmṛta 3]. With patience and conviction, enthusiasm, becoming very fair in your dealings, and in association of saintly persons, devotees, you will advance.

Śyāmasundara: Then the result of following these guidelines is predictable results? Automatically certain things happen.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One after another. Just like a teacher gives a task to the students, one type of task in the beginning, next another type, next another type, he makes progress.

Śyāmasundara: What are those again? Patience…?

Prabhupāda: First of all, enthusiasm.

Śyāmasundara: First enthusiasm.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you are enthusiastic, how can you enter into any activities? Utsāhān. Then patience-not to be impatient, "Oh, I am working so hard, I am getting no result." No. You will get. So (indistinct) niścaya, the firm conviction that "Because I have taken the path of the mahājanas prescribed by Rūpa Gosvāmī or prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, it must be successful." It may be taking some time, it is delayed, that doesn't matter. It will be successful. Niścaya. Not that niścaya can sit idly. No. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Prescribed duties must be performed fairly, in good faith, sato vṛtteḥ. And in the association, that will give us impetus. People are coming to our association automatically. Just like John came in our association, and gradually he has become a devotee.

Śyāmasundara: So if one follows these moral guidelines, the result is certain, predictable?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. (Hindi with guest) Good association means to associate with one of the devotees. Sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. (Hindi with guest)

Śyāmasundara: He says that moral laws are not absolute rules which never permit exceptions. He says that moral laws are flexible; that they're not absolute.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Real moral law means the law of the Supreme. Just like Kṛṣṇa has preached dhyāna-yoga, jñāna-yoga, haṭha-yoga, so many yoga systems. Then He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. These principles have not less moral, dhyāna-yoga, jñāna-yoga, aṣṭāṅga-yoga, but ultimately He says, "Give up all of them." Then what is moral? His word is moral. Whatever He says, that is moral. Not this dhyāna-yoga, jñāna-yoga. No. Whatever He says, that is morality. So it is changed. Nobody can argue: "Sir, you have prescribed so many kinds of yogas. Now You say to give up all these things. It is contradictory." No. It is not contradictory. Whatever He says, that is morality. That is Vaiṣṇava principle. We don't consider anything moral or immoral. Whatever is ordered by Kṛṣṇa or His representative, that is moral. That is our position.

Śyāmasundara: He says, "It is the function of intelligence to serve action, and action benefits man when it obeys the dictates of intelligence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa?

Śyāmasundara: Then he says that "Values must be regarded as goods of practical significance which result from intelligently directed activities." So something we place value on must be acted…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna followed the decision of Kṛṣṇa, so there is value. He became victorious, he enjoyed the kingdom, and he became a famous devotee.

Śyāmasundara: As a practical result of his activities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. As a practical result. Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that this Kurukṣetra fight was just like a great ocean, and all these Bhīṣma, Droṇa, Karṇa, they were just like big animals in the ocean. He said, "It is important for my grandfather to cross the ocean dangerously with all these big, big animals. But by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it was possible." This is value.

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo

yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ

tatra vijayo…

Śyāmasundara: He says that morality is social, that besides a personal meaning it must have a social meaning.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a type of morality which is above social meaning. It is transcendental. Social means guided by the three modes of material nature. But Kṛṣṇa's order is above, transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26].

Śyāmasundara: So it's asocial but not antisocial. Our morality is above social.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Social is subordinate to this world.

Śyāmasundara: But it is not antisocial.

Prabhupāda: No. It is social. It is sublime social. It is not only social but sublime social.

Śyāmasundara: He says that rights are also social, just like if I claim a right, a certain social right, that I must also accept my responsibility. Just for instance free speech. If I accept free speech as my social right, that I must also accept others' right to free speech.

Prabhupāda: But that is lacking in the present society, because these rascals, they are proud of their nationals but they are denying this same national life to the animals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they are rascals. Why the animals should be denied their national right? They are born in the same country. They have a right to live at the cost of God. Why we are interfering with their independence, given right? Therefore they are rascals. Their so-called social, moral, philosophical, political, they are all rascaldom. Therefore our decision is, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā: [SB 5.18.12] anyone who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualities. In the other direction, we will find so many defects with his so-called moral and social position.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God… He defines God as the active relation between the ideal and the actual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are active in God's service. People are thinking, "What service they are doing? They should be giving service to the country, to society, and they are making ārati and brass idols." They are thinking like that. But for us it is practical.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that there is no particular being who is God, but that God is the unity of all ideal ends, which allows us to desire an action. In other words, whatever motivates us to higher activity, that is God, that motivation, but that God is…

Prabhupāda: In other words, whatever you do for God, that is higher activity.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he would say whatever you do for anyone-for community or country-whatever is higher activity…

Prabhupāda: Then why does he name "God"?

Śyāmasundara: He says God is not a particular being.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he name "God"? Why does he bring in the word "God"? Suppose if he is concerned with the man only, so why does he bring the word in, "God"? What is the purpose?

Śyāmasundara: He is trying to define that which motivates us to desire something higher or more.

Prabhupāda: That means God should be an instrument to serve our purpose. That is his philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Not necessarily. He leaves that open.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he bring the name of God? That is my position.

Revatīnandana: It says he could not accept the term as referring to a particular being.

Śyāmasundara: He said that "God summons us to intelligent actions which calls for deliberate choice, purposive behavior that is selective." In other words, he is trying to find out why is it that the human intelligence acts in such a way that it selects this over that and guides itself by selecting purposefully. That purposiveness he calls God.

Prabhupāda: That is making the name of God as a scapegoat. He has no practical use of God.

Śyāmasundara: He has no clear idea of God.

Prabhupāda: That means he is godless. So therefore we say, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. As soon as he becomes godless, all his philosophy becomes null and void.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the word "God" is that ideal which we acknowledge as having authority over our emotions and our will or volition.

Prabhupāda: But he says there is no being; it is an ideal.

Śyāmasundara: It's an idea.

Prabhupāda: So people may not like that ideas; therefore the communists are there. Others may not like this idea.

Guest: He says God summons. He says God summons us. But I cannot see how a nonbeing can summon.

Prabhupāda: Summons. That is contradiction.

Śyāmasundara: He says it is the idea which…

Prabhupāda: How the idea summons? He says the idea summons us.

Śyāmasundara: Ah, yes. Well, and he says that it is the value to which one is supremely devoted, that this is God.

Prabhupāda: How can devotion be possible without a being? Just like devotion means between the devotee and the person who is offered that devotional service.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the Communists would say that "God is the state, and all my supreme devotion is for the state, to serve the state."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but your state, Communist Russian state, is not overgrowing others. So that cannot be God. God is obeyed by everyone. Your state may not be obeyed by other states. God means the supreme controller. You are not the supreme controller. Then how can you make the state as God, your state?

Śyāmasundara: So actually his idea of God would change. For the Communists God means the state; for the primitive savage God means the…

Prabhupāda: Just like Gandhi made Cāṇakya his god.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That to which one is supremely devoted, that means God.

Prabhupāda: Anyone may be supremely devoted to his wife or sometimes supremely devoted to his dog. The dog is God? Wife is God? So everyone has got one god, and I think that it is supported by Vivekananda, yata mata tata patha: "Whatever you think of God, that's all right." (Hindi with guest) Everyone can manufacture his own God. (laughter) Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot achieve absolute certainty or perfection. So we must rest content…

Prabhupāda: That means he has got a poor fund of knowledge. He does not admit that. But we can say that because his knowledge is not perfect, he's saying like that.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we must rest content with a faith and a commitment which helps us to face the future resolutely, reconstructing our environment to obtain more satisfactory adjustments. This is the Western philosophy in a nutshell.

Prabhupāda: Why not take directly the words of God? (Hindi with guest)

Śyāmasundara: He says that the idea of God is relative to the observer; that it may be something for one man and something for another. So there is no absolute certainty…

Prabhupāda: That means that none of them know what is God. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

[Bg. 7.3]

Nobody knows God. Only one person in many millions may know.

Śyāmasundara: He finds refuge in a kind of humanitarian welfare idea that by…

Prabhupāda: This is called utilitarian.

Śyāmasundara: Called what?

Prabhupāda: Utilitarian.

Śyāmasundara: Utilitarian. He differs from the utilitarians, because they say that we should not…

Prabhupāda: They say if some idea can be utilized for some better position of society. That is utilitarian.

Śyāmasundara: But the utilitarians say that everything should be utilized to serve man's desires. But he says everything should be used to serve man's worthiest desires, man's highest desires, worthy desires.

Prabhupāda: What is the difference between desire and highest desire?

Śyāmasundara: Well, someone may desire more broadness.

Prabhupāda: Who will judge who is highest? Everyone will say, "My desire is the highest."

Śyāmasundara: The utilitarians might say that "People desire more brothels, so let us build more brothels.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Modern world, that is the highest desire. How can you refute that if there is no standard? Everyone says, "This is my law." Unless you go to the court, who will judge?

Revatīnandana: Now he wants to make his desire the highest desire. He's got a theory now that "This is the highest thing I can think of, so this is God." That means I have the highest.

Śyāmasundara: He says that…

Prabhupāda: Our formula is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says…

Prabhupāda: We say that if one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is all right. Otherwise reject him. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. They are mano-ratha. They are mental speculators. They are hovering on the mental plane.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we must continually make satisfactory adjustment; that things change…

Prabhupāda: That you cannot do, because you are hovering on the mental plane. And the mind is always imperfect, rejecting and accepting. So nothing will be standard. Your mind is accepting something, I am rejecting it. So on the mental plane you cannot come to the standard. It is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He says that…

Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur

indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ

manasas tu parā buddhir

yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

[Bg. 3.42]

We have to go, transcend the mental platform, go to the intellectual platform, then surpass intellectual platform, come to the spiritual platform. That is the process. (Hindi with guest) No. That is not sufficient.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the nature of existence is temporary and so we must make a constant revision to change things.

Prabhupāda: This nature is temporary, but there is another nature, sanātana. That he does not know. Paras tasmāt tu bhavo anyaḥ, 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That is standardization. Sanātana means eternal. That does not change. It is neither created or annihilated. That is standard.

Śyāmasundara: So somehow or other we must develop a…

Prabhupāda: Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Five thousand years ago Arjuna became Kṛṣṇa conscious. The same Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are also preaching. This is standard. And before that Arjuna, the same Kṛṣṇa consciousness was preached to the sun-god forty millions of years ago. So this does not change. This is unchanging, avyakta. Param avyayam. Kṛṣṇa is avyayam and His consciousness is avyayam. It is not changing.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we must develop…, the whole world must develop a common faith in practical activity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kṛṣṇa's position.

Śyāmasundara: He says that "Ours is the responsibility of accepting a precious heritage of values, accumulated by the continuous human community at great cost in effort and suffering, and to expand, conserve, transmit, and rectify these values bequeathed to us." In other words, he says that we must take the lessons of history and build upon them in order to transmit these values and preserve them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are doing that. We are taking from the history of forty millions of years ago and transmitting it by guru-paramparā, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. Accepted by great authorities like Vyāsa, Nārada, Devala, five thousand years, Arjuna, and later on the great ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. Lately, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya. And we are following Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura.

Śyāmasundara: So the values that are taught to us by history, are they not…

Prabhupāda: The same value. The value has not deteriorated. It has not fluctuated.

Śyāmasundara: What is that?

Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The price has not fluctuated. The same price. Kṛṣṇa says, "The same thing I am teaching you," in the Fourth Chapter, "which was taught to the sun-god, Vivasvān, forty millions of years ago, the same thing, because it is now broken, the chain, I am teaching you again the same thing." So it does not change. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that does not change.

Śyāmasundara: He would say that those values which civilizations most cherish or prize, that those are the values that we should accept. Just like that…

Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic civilization. That is the Vedic civilization. The Vedic system still stands. So many civilizations come and go on; therefore this is value in civilization.

Śyāmasundara: I think all civilizations have cherished those values at their peak.

Prabhupāda: But because they are not factual, they have failed. But Vedic civilization is still going strong.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the Christian civilization, they, at their peak, when they are most enlightened, they also prized honesty, uprightness, love thy neighbor-these different social values.

Prabhupāda: The Christian civilization has got values undoubtedly. But they do not follow it. They do not follow it. There is God consciousness, there is morality, there are ethical laws, there is acceptance of God's authority, (indistinct), but they do not follow it. Not only Christians, even the so-called Hindus, they also do not follow. That is the world situation.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the problems of philosophy are rooted in social conditions, so that we should… Urgent social reform is required in order to solve the problems of philosophy. By changing social structures through education, then the problems of philosophy will be solved.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we take the standard method. Just like this varṇāśrama method-standard. We maintain it and there will be no trouble in the society. Actually, there is natural division. The intelligent class of men, the administrative class of men, the production class of men and the laborer class of men, that is prevailing all over the world. That is no doubt. But they are not doing their duty. The brāhmaṇas, the intelligent class of men, they are not following these strictly the principles, satya, śama, dama, titikṣava. Similarly the administrative class, they are not following the strictly the rules and regulations. Therefore it is fallen.

Śyāmasundara: Presumably this is from a lack of education.

Prabhupāda: Na bhajanti (Sanskrit) nainad bhrastha (Sanskrit). If you do not follow the principles… Just like the administrative class is there all over the world. The class of men who is interested in administration, they are taking vote, they are coming to governmental high, high post, but they are not following the principles of administrative class: na bhajayante avama bhṛtya (?).

Śyāmasundara: Is this the result of a lack of education?

Prabhupāda: Lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The so-called education is there. Lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The administrative class is forgetting that they are belonging to the arms of Kṛṣṇa. Mukha bāhu rūpa (?). So the administrative class is supposed to be the arms of Kṛṣṇa, but they are not thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa, that "I am part and parcel of the body of Kṛṣṇa." That is forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are in trouble. They are separated from Kṛṣṇa. This hand is my arm, but if it is separated from my body, it will be called the arms or the hand, but it has no value.

Śyāmasundara: Dewey's greatest faith was in the educational system, that the educational system should reflect the real welfare of the community.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This educational system is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, tan manye adhītam uttamam. The best educational system is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So because people are being educated without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is becoming valueless. Therefore we are giving, I mean to say, purificatory method in every department.

Śyāmasundara: Because value equals satisfaction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa is one, and everything is zero, so if there is one, zero is added-ten, hundred, thousand-increases its value. Take out the one and it is all zero. Thousands of zeros will not carry any weight (?). So they are all zero without Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy has a social responsibility to influence intelligent management of human affairs.

Prabhupāda: That we are doing. We are asking everyone that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do things intelligently, your life will be successful. You'll be happy." How else you'll be happy? That is our propaganda.

Śyāmasundara: Well, we also are influencing the managers, intelligent managers of society.

Prabhupāda: That I say. The managers, when they are forgetful of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot manage. Cannot manage. That he has (indistinct) relationship. You are managing something, but you have to satisfy somebody. So that is given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣanam [SB 1.2.13]. If you want perfection of your managerial work, then you should try to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. If not, you are simply wasting time. You cannot satisfy anyone. Yasmin tuṣṭe jagat tuṣṭo. If you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then everyone will be satisfied.

Śyāmasundara: His idea was that no philosophy can be fixed or finished or absolute, but that all ideas must be continually revised.

Prabhupāda: Because they have got imperfect philosophy. Imperfect is not perfect; therefore he is thinking of advancing further to make it perfect. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness he remains always incomplete; therefore imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that "All ideas must be tested in the laboratory of educational experience, where they can be challenged, their consequences evaluated, and where they can be continuously modified or reconstructed."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you see how Arjuna was perfectly good man, because he was Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was not willing to kill his enemy. He was hesitating, "What is the use of taking this kingdom?" This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Because the other side, they were not thinking, but Arjuna, because he is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he was considering, "What is the use of taking this kingdom, by killing (indistinct)?" In other words, nobody can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No philosopher, no scientist, no sociologist can be perfect without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: But in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy the ideas are not to be re-evaluated. Aren't they absolute, the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the philosophy is absolute. Kṛṣṇa is absolute, so His consciousness is also absolute.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that philosophy is always changing, that we always have to revise.

Prabhupāda: That is in the material platform. He has no information what is perfect state. He does not know. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada-pañcarātra]. All tapasya finished. Samsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then the all duty is all right. You don't require to satisfy anyone else. Whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all.

Revatīnandana: It seems like his philosophy-he knows what to do with knowledge, but he hasn't got any knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā: [SB 5.18.12] anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good knowledge, he has no good qualification. That's all. (end)

KIERKEGAARD.SYA

Soren Aabye Kierkegaard

Śyāmasundara: …philosopher is called Kierkegaard. He was a Danish philosopher, last century. He is the father of what is called existentialism, which is a very prominent modern philosophy, probably the most prominent modern philosophy. Last time we were discussing the phenomenologists, who are interested in getting at the "whatness," or the essence of a thing. These existentialists, they are more interested in the "thatness," or the existence of a thing. So this Kierkegaard describes three steps of the life experience. The first step he calls the aesthetic step or stage of life. This aesthetic stage of life is characterized by two types of persons: that one engaged in sense gratification completely, unrestricted sense pleasure; and the mental speculator or philosopher. He said that in both cases that both persons are uncommitted to any specific goals and that they become bored with their activities, unrestricted sense gratification and philosophical speculation; that they are devoid of commitment-they are not committing themselves to anything, simply enjoying and speculating-and that this type of life, this aesthetic type of life, is…

Prabhupāda: So how they can be philosopher if they have no ultimate goal?

Śyāmasundara: He says they are not really philosophers; they are mental speculators.

Prabhupāda: So mental speculator anyone can become, without any aim. What is this? Ship without a rudder, a man without aim.

Śyāmasundara: They said that both of these types of persons become bored with themselves and they get a feeling of emptiness or meaninglessness or despair. He calls it despair, hopelessness, nothingness. So that this pleasure…

Prabhupāda: That we condemn, śūnyavādi. Śūnyavādi, or nirviśeṣa śūnyavādi, impersonalists and voidists. They must be overcome by despair. They have no aim. They do not know what is the aim of life. Being disgusted in the present form of life, they, when they have no conclusion, no high aim, they become disappointed. That is the cause of these hippies.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that then they indulge in pleasure and mental speculation as a diversionary tactic. To try to cover up this despair, they become more indulged in sense pleasure and more speculating.

Prabhupāda: Just like people in the material world, when a businessman failure, he takes to drinking. Sometimes great shock, in order to forget, one takes to drinking. Yes. Intoxication.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this is the stepping-stone, or the first stage toward self-realization, that from this despair that one can find his authentic selfhood.

Prabhupāda: This we will admit. That is, therefore the Vedānta-sūtra is there. When fickle people become disgusted, that "We have worked so hard, but still we could not attain the goal of life, peace and prosperity," despair, then they begin to think, "Actually, what is the purpose of life?" That is called brahma-jijñāsā, inquiring into the Absolute Truth or the ultimate truth of life. That is natural in human life. That sort of inquiry is necessary for further development.

Śyāmasundara: He says that to find our authentic selfhood then the next step, beginning with the stage of not being committed to anything, is to be aware that life is an "either/or" decision; that we must begin to commit ourselves to certain patterns of action and make conscious commitments-either this or that-and make decisions and become concerned, ethically(?) concerned with life. This he says is the second stage toward self-realization.

Prabhupāda: Self-realization, as I said, that enquiring to the Absolute Truth. It is not that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I think that. Yes. That is self-realization. So there the philosophy of life begins: inquiry into the origin, source of everything.

Śyāmasundara: The emphasis of these existentialists is upon acting. They think that first there must come an active decision to say, be concerned one way or the other about something, and take an active role in dealing with life rather than aimlessly taking pleasure from it. But try to ethically become involved with life and make decisions, either this or that.

Prabhupāda: So these things are very nicely described in Vedānta-sūtra, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the right commentary on Vedānta-sūtra. Just like it is also philosophy, that what is the actual aim of life, or what is the Absolute Truth. So the Vedānta-sūtra is so nicely made, the answer is also there. The Absolute Truth must be that thing which is the origin of everything. Now Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam discusses what is the nature of that origin. This requires philosophical as well as authentic proof. Now, that origin, first of all the origin is conscious or not conscious. Origin, just like these some philosophers, they are tracing life from bones, tracing life. So now one should be intelligent enough to understand whether actually life can begin from bones and stones or life begins from life, actual life. So if the origin of everything, you can say the original source of creation or the creator, if you take it as creator, that we have to take. But creation does not take automatically. There is no proof. There is no proof. From matter, automatically creation takes place, that is not very perfect philosophy, neither one can support this view in the long run. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says that the origin of everything must be conscious. And that consciousness, also, existence, existing eternally. Not that consciousness has developed under certain conditions. In this way Bhāgavata has explained, Vedānta-sūtra has explained the origin very logically and sensibly. So these answers are there in the Bhāgavata and Vedānta-sūtra.

Śyāmasundara: They… What they're more concerned with is that they find themselves here in this world as an active living being, and they are concerned more with the activities of life, how to…

Prabhupāda: But how the activity came? Then one should be…, intelligent man should be concerned first of all wherefrom this activity came. What is the origin of activity? That is philosophy. You are simply seeing there are… Sometimes we see activity in matter, just like the cloud, cloud is coming on the sky, it is moving, there is activity. But that activity, this material activity, is interaction. That is not real activity. Real activity, just like modern science, they are concerned with the material science, seeing the activity, they are saying it is by nature it is going; rather, a fruit is coming out, a flower is coming out, this is, there is activity. So one should know what is the cause of this activity. They think that it is automatically coming, by nature, nature. They cannot explain. That is not philosophy. But we have to see wherefrom this activity comes. We get answer from Bhagavad-gītā that behind all these material activities there is a brain, there is a… That is God. Just like this machine is working, acting. It is talking. As soon as you press one button it's talking. But a child will say, "Oh, how wonderful this machine is talking." This is childish. One who has got sense, he'll know this talking is not coming automatically. Somebody has talked, and it is simply a record. That is intelligence. So wherefrom the activity is coming?

Śyāmasundara: They say that at this level of existence that we can't say where it is coming from. We simply find…

Prabhupāda: Then you can't say, then you learn. Then you are not in the perfect stage.

Śyāmasundara: No. This is only the middle stage, he calls.

Prabhupāda: So the middle stage, so then you have to learn. You are not perfect, so you do not know. So one who does not know, his speculation, what is the value? Just like a child, if he does not know how the machine is working, how, then his speculation on this machine, what is the value of it? Without perfect knowledge, simply speculation, that is going on. The modern civilization, they prefer simply speculation without any basic truth. That is the defect. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. And they have become leaders, philosophers, scientists. Bhāgavata condemns them: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās. They are blind themselves and they are trying to lead other blind men. So their leading, their science, their philosophy are practically useless. They cannot give any benefit to the human society. Childish.

Śyāmasundara: So if…

Prabhupāda: If you do not know, then why do you take the post of teacher? This is our proposition. If you do not know, sit down. It is better not to talk foolish. There is an English proverb: "It is better not to talk than to talk foolish." If you do not know, then don't talk. That is nice. What is the use of philosophically foolishly talking this and that and "maybe," "perhaps," like that, like that? What is the use of such knowledge?

Śyāmasundara: So he proposes these three stages of existence. The first one we talked about is the aesthetic stage of noncommitment-simply sense gratification and speculation. The second stage he says that a man makes a leap in commitment and begins to concern himself or involve himself with the world on an ethical level. And the third stage is the religious stage, or self-realization. But in the second stage he says that "The despair of life has lead one to the commitment to make choices, to commit himself to action and to enter into life's involvement and become ethically concerned; that suddenly he's turned within himself and in his passion and freedom and decision or subjectivity, then he begins to find himself."

Prabhupāda: What does he find?

Śyāmasundara: This may be likened to the people who do pious works, or the people who do good to others, who are morally committed to life, on that level. To feed others, clothe others, like that. They say that that is a step higher than simply sense gratification and speculation. He says that "This is a move in the right direction toward authentic selfhood, and eventually this way we will understand what I am. And because we are at last doing something, we are involved with life, then we are no more abstract. We are existing." Then we are existing. That someone who is doing all sense gratification and mental speculation, they are living abstract life, abstract life, external life. Simply waiting for the enjoyment of life and speculating what is the meaning of things, that is abstract life, and this being committed to action or decision-making is called existence. This is the first step toward real existence. So in this ethical stage he says that by the very act of making decisions that we become aware, that we become more and more aware, and that decision-making means awareness. And if we make choices about anything, that means that we are becoming aware.

Prabhupāda: What is the decision? Why people become moral-to feed the poor, like that, humanitarian? What is the decision, ultimate decision?

Śyāmasundara: He says that it's not so much the fact of the decision but how the decision is made: if it's made with integrity and self-confidence.

Prabhupāda: How the decision… Why, how the decision is made, that I still don't know. How? Why? Why they make such decision? One man is running on a slaughterhouse. He's killing only. Another man is after humanitarian work, giving food, giving them chance to live. So what is the ultimate decision?

Śyāmasundara: The decision is…

Prabhupāda: There are two sides. There are two kinds of people are going. The same man, he is giving charity for feeding poor man or giving relief to the distressed man, but at the same time he's encouraging animal-killing. So what is the ethics? What is the ethical law in these two contradictory activities? One side… Just like our Vivekananda. He is advocating daridra-nārāyaṇa sevā, "Feed the poor," but feed the poor with mother Kālī's prasāda, where poor goats are killed. Just like, another, one side feeding the poor, another side killing the poor goat. So what is the ethic? What is the ethical law in this connection? Just like people open hospitals, and the doctor prescribes, "Give this man," what it is called," (Hindi), ox blood, or chicken juice." So what is this ethic? And they're supporting that "Here is chicken juice." Just because animal has no soul, so they can be killed. This is another theory. So why the animal has no soul? So imperfect knowledge. So on the basis of imperfect knowledge this ethic or this humanitarian, what is the value? We do not give any value to all this understanding. Where is the ethics? If you protect the human life by giving him something by killing-there are so many medicines, but the killing is very prominent-then next point should be that if you say that the human life is important, so nonimportant animal-killing can be supported to save the important. Then the question will be, "Why it is important? Why consider the human life is important and the animal life is not important?" These are the questions of ethical law. Where are these discussions on the ethical laws?

Śyāmasundara: He gives importance not so much to the facts of the…

Prabhupāda: Then if there is no fact, then what is the use of such philosophy? It is not based on fact.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. He gives stress on how the decision is made.

Prabhupāda: When decision is made, then you should go farther. How the decision is made, that is our question. How is this made this decision, that you kill somebody and by killing somebody you protect somebody? How this decision is? That is our question. What is the answer?

Śyāmasundara: His answer is that you make the decision by inwardness, by turning inward…

Prabhupāda: And what is that inward mean? Why you are thinking that "I shall give protection to my brother by killing another gentleman"? Why you are thinking like this? What is the ethic? What is the value of ethic? That is our question.

Śyāmasundara: Well, perhaps his ethical man would not make that decision. Perhaps his ethical man would make the decision to protect the cow also. Because the idea is that through a passionate, feeling, awareness inside that one will come to the right decisions, that, that…

Prabhupāda: But he has no standard of right decision. What is the standard of right decision?

Śyāmasundara: His… It's… It's not so much… His motto is not so much "Know thyself" as to "Choose thyself." He's not so much saying that what you…

Prabhupāda: So how you can make your choice if you do not know yourself? You make your choice, "This is good, this is bad." So this choice is made when you know yourself. So this is my interpretation. I have interest in this; therefore it is good. That, so without knowing yourself, how you can make this choice? How you can make your decision?

Śyāmasundara: He says that you will know yourself when you begin choosing yourself. And when you begin making choices and examining them, you find the right choice for you, and you will begin to know yourself. That this passionate, inner awareness when one becomes engaged in life, in doing things actively, and making decisions…

Prabhupāda: So this choice, when you know yourself, so how you can know yourself unless you go to somebody who knows things as they are? Just like people know that "I am this body." But this kind of knowing is animal knowing. This kind of knowing, that "I am this body," yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. If one understands that "I am this body," then he is no better than an ass. The animals, the ass, the ass also thinks, "I am this body," and you also think that you are body, then what is the difference between you and the ass? And what is the value of the philosophy of an ass if you are in the bodily concept of life?

Śyāmasundara: This particular philosophy puts emphasis on the act of deciding, that whatever is decided doesn't matter, but…

Prabhupāda: But you cannot decide without your aim. What is the aim of life?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that because we cannot know the aim or…

Prabhupāda: Then how we can make decision?

Śyāmasundara: Then we must make a choice, either this or that.

Prabhupāda: That is childish. That is childish. Just like a child, he does not know. He sometimes plays with these things, sometimes plays with these things, sometimes plays with that. That's all. That is child.

Śyāmasundara: Well, his idea is that you choose one fact and stick to it, whether…, no matter what it is, but that it must be…, your decisions must be free, full of passion, tension and integrity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about someone like Hitler, who chose…

Śyāmasundara: Just like, just like Hitler, they might say, or actually the whole hippie philosophy comes from these men, these existentialists. It's not… It doesn't matter what you do, it's that you do it with conviction, determination, passion, freedom.

Prabhupāda: However foolish it may be. That is nice. (laughter) However foolish it may be, you go on.

Śyāmasundara: They would admire Hitler because at least he stuck to his principles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would admire Hitler.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would admire Hitler for sticking to his principles and acting upon them.

Prabhupāda: So what happened? Hitler became vanquished. That's all.

Devotee: Now they admire the Hell's Angels.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wouldn't you say that pretty much, that this philosophy is guiding a lot of the figures, the youth…?

Śyāmasundara: This is the most prevalent philosophy today, guiding people. It says that because God is dead, that we don't know where we came from, all we know is that we're here existing, the only way we can genuinely know ourself and exist authentically…

Prabhupāda: But our point is that we do not know genuinely. What we know, that is foolishness, that is asses' knowledge. Just like ass knows that "I am this body. I am the servant of this washerman." So this knowledge, like this. So he has made the decision. The ass has made this decision that "I shall take a morsel of grass and whole day I shall carry tons of cloth of this washerman." He has made this decision, that's all. Then is it that the decision is very nice? This is asses' decision, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: They say that rather than indulge in unrestricted sense gratification or spend our life speculating about…

Prabhupāda: So why not unrestricted sense gratification, if one makes that decision?

Śyāmasundara: Just because it becomes boring.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Śyāmasundara: He says because unrestricted sense gratification becomes boring and full of despair and…

Prabhupāda: That is boring, then he, he must give that aim of life which is not boring.

Śyāmasundara: He says the only…, that it is not boring if one becomes actively engaged somehow with life, you see. He gets a purpose in life and chooses to act on that purpose.

Prabhupāda: How you make such choice, that is the point. Whimsically.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says this choice is made through inward, subjective, passionate search, and it will come out.

Prabhupāda: So that inward, subjective, just like these Bowery bums-what is called?

Devotees: Bowery bums.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they have made decision as soon as they get some money, purchase one bottle whiskey and drink it, and lie down.

Śyāmasundara: Then he would say there is no decision being made there. There is no commitment to any ethical decision there. That is just sense gratification. He says the next higher level above unrestricted sense gratification is to take up a cause, a good cause, and determine…

Prabhupāda: So how he'll make it a good cause? The good cause is relative. You think something good cause, I think something good cause, so what is really good cause? Who will, who will decide that this is good cause?

Śyāmasundara: He says that the good cause is determined when we begin to anticipate death. He says that if we lived every moment as if we might die soon in anticipation of death that we will make the right decisions. That then the value, the real value of things will come out.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible, because we see that in the slaughterhouse the animal is seeing that "Next life is mine." What decision he can make? And still he is standing there and does not go away.

Śyāmasundara: He's not exactly human. The human being, he can think of things, death.

Prabhupāda: The human being, if he is like animal, then he must be animal. Just like this is human being, that one should think that "I do not wish to die, but death is overcoming me. So what is the cause, and what should I do?" That is human being. Nobody says, if any one of us is asked, "Would you like to die?" You may whimsically say yes, but no, actually he does not like to die. But death overcomes. If I ask somebody that "Would you like to be diseased?" he'll say no, but disease is coming. So these are the human problems, that simply making some whimsical decision. The real decision is that I do not wish to suffer, but suffering comes upon me. So how to make the solution? And that is real decision. And everyone is trying to do that. Everyone is working so hard just to get out of suffering.

Śyāmasundara: One of the examples that this man's successor has used, which probably would apply here, is that in the case, for instance, of having to fight… [break]

Prabhupāda: …not working?

Śyāmasundara: It ended. I had to turn it over.

Prabhupāda: So therefore, considering as he says past, present and future, we have to act in such a way what is beneficial for past, present and future, and then the next question is that if I existed in the past, am existing now, and I shall exist in future, then what is this body? The body, this body was not in the past. This body, it will exist for some years, and in the future it will not exist. Then you immediately understand that this body is external. Then my decision should be not on the basis of body, but on the basis of my real position, the soul. These things (indistinct). That is right decision.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says whereas the condition of modern man-that he is disintegrated and he doesn't have connection with the past; he's lost his memory; he has no connection with the future, then he becomes hopeless-that the opposite of this is the integrated personality: that he has memory and that he has hope, these two qualities. In other words, his present position is connected with the past and future. This is the integrated personality.

Prabhupāda: That is being taught, that integration, that Kṛṣṇa reminds that you were in the past, you will be in future, and you are existing now. So decision should be taken on this platform. That is real decision.

Śyāmasundara: He said that at the moment of decision or of commitment of the integrated personality that the self unites the past with the future and establishes an integrity.

Prabhupāda: Then he comes to the point of self.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That the self…

Prabhupāda: And he accepts that self is eternal, integrating past, present and future.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Well, this is the next level. This is the third and highest level. He said that first of all there's the aesthetic level of unrestricted sense gratification, but this ends in despair. Then comes the ethical level, when one decides, "Well, I will take a cause, good cause, and I will commit myself to it and act upon that." Then he comes to the development of the religious stage, or the highest stage. When he, his decision-making power is so advanced that…

Prabhupāda: In other words, he's supporting our movement.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because we are in the topmost stage.

Śyāmasundara: He does. The modern philosophers, his foIlowers like Sartre and Camus and people like that, they have only followed his lower development stages. They have not thought of this aspect of a religious stage. He said that the ethical stage is typified by a regard for duty, but this advances to the religious stage when there is obedience and commitment to God. And the chief symptoms of this stage…

Prabhupāda: So it is not that he is supporting our movement?

Śyāmasundara: No, no. He does. He says that the chief symptoms of the religious…, when one is advanced to the religious stage, are suffering and faith.

Prabhupāda: Not always suffering. (indistinct) We are, we in religious. Suppose we are in the topmost. Does it means that we are suffering?

Śyāmasundara: He is a Christian religionist. He's a Christian religionist. They give importance to suffering. "Christ suffered for us, so we…" He says that to abstain from sin means suffering, we are suffering.

Prabhupāda: That is also wrong theory. If Christ is God, or God's son, then why he should suffer? God is subjected to suffering? Then what kind of God He is?

Devotee: They say that he did not suffer for God; he suffered for man.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, if there is no suffering, then where is the question of suffering for God or suffering for man?

Śyāmasundara: They say that it's a paradox, that… They say that it's a paradox or an apparent contradiction that the Transcendental came into the material world and appeared to suffer for men, but actually he does not suffer because He is God, that He only appeared to suffer to save us from our sins and remind us always not to sin.

Prabhupāda: But why the Christians are committing sins still? They have given contract to Jesus Christ that "You suffer for us and we go on committing sins." Very good philosophy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is their concept of God?

Śyāmasundara: Well, going on now, he says that these life stages or these three levels that we talked about are the levels of attaining selfhood. That is, that selfhood is an achievement, not that it is a given human nature, but that it is an achievement. Not that a self-realized soul is simply that way because that is his nature, but because he has achieved that stage through… He's developed to that stage through consciously…

Prabhupāda: Without any endeavor he'll achieve?

Śyāmasundara: No, no. That he has, with great endeavor, intelligently and consciously achieved that stage. Not that he has without any endeavor got that stage. It is not natural stage, even…

Prabhupāda: So when that endeavor is made?

Śyāmasundara: It is made passing through these three stages of development.

Prabhupāda: That means this endeavor is possible in human form of life. Therefore we are preaching that the human form is especially meant for God realization. That is the first function of the human form of life. Not to act as animal. That is our (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: There are some philosophies such as the phenomenologists, they say that essence is prior to existence, but these existentialists say that existence is prior to essence; in other words, that by existing we come to our essence. We realize ourself by going through stages of different existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our theory, that we are struggling or transmigrating from different species of life, and when we come to the perfectional stage of living condition, human form of life, so then we understand what is the aim of life. So as spirit soul I am existing, and then, at my perfectional stage, I learn what is the essence of life. Essence of life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore existence is first, and then to understand the essence.

Śyāmasundara: Ah. He says the culmination of commitment is religious life, or he calls it the inwardness of suffering, that we…

Prabhupāda: No. We don't follow that. Suffering, actually there is no suffering, because a spirit soul is different from the body. The same example: Just like when there is accident in the motorcar, the motor driver or the owner of the car is not actually suffering. But because he has identified his motorcar with himself, therefore he is suffering. Similarly, either you say God and all God's personal parts and parcels, the living entities, the spirit soul, he has no suffering. But the ordinary spirit soul, because he has identified himself with the matter, he suffers, whereas God, because He has full knowledge and is always apart from this material world, nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ, just like Bhagavad-gītā. There is…, God has no suffering. It is a question of, just like the same example: In a motorcar I am sitting and my friend is sitting. There is some accident; the motorcar is lost. So this man who possesses the motorcar, he suffers, but I do not suffer. I am in the same car, but I do not suffer. What is the difference? The difference is that I have full knowledge that I am not this car, but he, being identified with the car, being ignorant, he is suffering. So it is a question of knowledge where there is suffering and no suffering.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So penance and austerity, that it is not really suffering? What does suffering involve?

Prabhupāda: No, no. No suffering. Those who are advanced in knowledge, there is no suffering. Actually those who are spiritually advanced, if there is some bodily pain, he knows that "I am not this body. Why should I suffer? Let me do my duty. Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is advancement.

Śyāmasundara: Well, by this inwardness of suffering, he applies… The same principle, the same idea is there, that one goes on, and he risks…

Prabhupāda: Actually, suffering is due to ignorance, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That he risks serving God on his faith of…

Prabhupāda: There is no reason.

Śyāmasundara: …and whatever…

Prabhupāda: Because he knows that "I am part and parcel of God. So my duty is to serve God." So where is the suffering?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is pleasure, serving God. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, just see, in the cottage. They are minister. They are ministers. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. They are living most aristocratically, and now they are taking the place of mendicants living in the cottage, no bodily comfort, no servants, nothing of the sort. Does it mean they are suffering? There is one… That is stated in the, that vande rūpa-sanātana, that they, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. They gave up as most insignificant this society, this aristocracy. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. It is… What is the value of this? Give up. And bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. And in order to become merciful to the mass of people, they accept simply loincloth, any way covering, that's all. That is a suffering? No. They are not suffering. Then people may say that that is suffering. But for them, there is a… Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur. Then he merged into the ocean, in the thought that how gopīs, gopī-bhāva, they are transacting their business with Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛta. That is a ocean of transcendental bliss. So because they're merged into that ocean, what is this suffering? They have no sense of suffering. One man is suffering because he has identified with this body, he is suffering. But they were identified with the cause of the gopīs. They are simply writing Kṛṣṇa's pastimes with gopīs, Vidagdha-mādhava, Lalitā-mādhava, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. They are simply engaged in thoughts of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs and writing, writing, writing. So what is the suffering? Other fools may think, "Oh this man was minister. He was so comfortably situated. Now they have taken this cloth and they've no home, no food, nothing of this…" They are thinking that is suffering, but they are not suffering. They are not suffering. They are enjoying.

Śyāmasundara: I think that's the difference between the Christian emphasis and Kṛṣṇa consciousness…

Prabhupāda: Because it's simply mental speculation. There is no basis.

Śyāmasundara: The Christian monks, ascetics, they always thought that the life they were giving up, they were suffering, always that feeling…

Prabhupāda: Poor fund of knowledge, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, to go on…

Prabhupāda: And they have developed this philosophy and this Bible, after the demise of Jesus Christ. More or less it is concoction.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the opposite of faith is sin, that sin is the same as despair. Sin and despair are the same.

Prabhupāda: Well, unless you have got complete sense of God, there is no question of sin or piety. Because if you do not know what is the standard of sin and piety… Just like the same example can be given that in this India-Pakistan war, that party killed so many men and this party killed so many men on the other side. When you take killing as sin, but it's piety. From their side it is piety; from our side it is piety. So how these sinful activities or pious activities are considered? To satisfy the higher authorities.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He means faith in the orders of God; the opposite of that.

Prabhupāda: It is not a question of faith, it is a question of fact. Then it is, the same example, just like Arjuna. He decided to become nonviolent in the beginning, but at the end he decided to fight and kill. Now which is piety and which is sinful? Actually, this decision to kill by the order of Kṛṣṇa is piety, because he satisfies the higher authorities. So in this material world we concoct that "This is sinful, this is piety," but actual sinful and piety is decided on the order of the Supreme God. That is (indistinct). So if you have no connection with God, so our these thoughts of sinful and piety, they are simply mental concoction. It has no value.

Śyāmasundara: He says that faith in the order of God, that is piety.

Prabhupāda: Then you must have order of God. Unless you have no conception of God, where is the question of order? If God is impersonal, He cannot speak, He has no mouth, He has no tongue, He has no eyes, He has…, where is the question of order?

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that Jesus is the standard.

Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Then there is no Christian. Jesus Christ's first order is "Thou shall not kill," and they're killing, simply killing. Then where is Christians? There is no Christian.

Śyāmasundara: So he calls the modern Christianity the "sickness unto death," because he says…

Prabhupāda: In the other words, we say there is no Christian.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that modern Christianity is sick. It is sickness unto death, he calls it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he accepts Jesus as the perfection, why doesn't he, in the beginning when he was looking for a way of making decisions, why doesn't he follow Jesus's path of morality?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he does. He does. He's just describing the philosophers describing…

Prabhupāda: He's coming to the point of religion.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. He comes to the point. He says that modern Christianity is despairing, and they are becoming sick.

Prabhupāda: Then why not say not Christian? Modern Christianity… Christianity is Christianity. You cannot make it "modern" and "past." You cannot say "God modern" and "God past." That is not good philosophy. You say there is Christianity or no Christianity. So our system is that if we do not follow the tenets of some religious principle, then how you can claim you belong to that religion? That is applicable everywhere. Just like the so-called Hindus, they did not believe anything, and they are passing on as Hindus, as brāhmaṇas, as (indistinct). That is just passing.

Śyāmasundara: At the time he was writing… [break] At the time he was philosophizing, Europe was in a very sad state of affairs, and everyone was trying to commit suicide. It was the…, in vogue. So he said that because Christianity is sinning, they are sinning despite their knowledge of what is right, then they come to the point of despair, and they are trying to kill themselves even though they know that Christianity says that we are immortal, that you cannot kill yourself. So he says that suicide is no answer to…

Prabhupāda: Christianity believes in the immortality of the soul?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So for Christians, suicide is no answer to escape their sinning or their despair. So he says…

Prabhupāda: You have committed so many sinful activities, and simply by killing you are trying to escape. In that way you are committing another sin. You are committing another sin. Therefore these persons who commit suicide, they become ghosts.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we must live as if at any moment we may die, so that at the last moment we must be fully absolved of all sins. We must be fully authentic at the last moment. So he says that we must live as if we were going to die at any moment.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. If you don't practice, it is not possible to understand at the last moment.

Śyāmasundara: No. That's what he means. We must practice it so that as if thinking any time we may die, so we must practice being absolved of sin.

Prabhupāda: That is practically being done by our movement. We are teaching our students to chant always Hare Kṛṣṇa, without any stopping. So death may come at any moment, but if we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is happy death.

Devotee: The Christians have this philosophy that at the time of death, if a priest is there he can give you absolution at your deathbed, and then you can be saved from all your sins.

Prabhupāda: But provided I have got consciousness to understand the words of the priest.

Devotee: Even if you commit sinful activities all your life, if he is there at your deathbed then you can be saved from your sins.

Prabhupāda: That is quite possible, you see, because he can remind you. But at the time of death, when everything is stopped, the functions of the body, kapha, pitta, vāyu, therefore Kulaśekhara says that "Let me die immediately." Actually, natural death means I will be encumbered with so many things, natural disturbance of this body, the disturbance, they'll be choked up, and cough, mucus, so many things. So unless one is practiced, it is not possible. Therefore practice is required from the very beginning-austerity, penance, brahmacārī, celibacy, like that. These things have to be practiced.

Śyāmasundara: He says that faith is the self willing to be the self, willing to be itself-the self willing to be itself. This is faith, or authenticity.

Prabhupāda: What is this willing to be itself?

Śyāmasundara: That the self is willing to be itself. That's what he calls faith.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To be itself and not something else.

Śyāmasundara: Just like we might say surrender. The self wills…

Prabhupāda: There is no question of surrender. To become self, that is the Māyāvādī, that I become one with the Supreme Self.

Śyāmasundara: No. He means as a part and parcel of God, because he says, "Faith is the self willing to be itself, authenticity, and to stand transparently…"

Prabhupāda: Then it can be understood that I am part and parcel of the Supreme. So when I remain as part and parcel, that is called faith.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. When I surrender to the idea that I am part and parcel of God, then I am…

Prabhupāda: So that surrender to the idea means, the same example, that a part and parcel of my body, they are engaged in the service of the body. So as soon as you engage yourself in the service of the Lord, that is your self-realization. That is perfect self-realization. Because you remain in your position, your position as part and parcel of the Supreme is to serve Him, practically. So if you engage yourself always in the service of the Lord, that is self-realization. There is no other philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that in a way because he said that at this stage one stands transparently before God, and this is his integrity, when he realizes his…

Prabhupāda: Transparently before God means to be engaged in His service. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching that way. They are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, twenty-four hours; therefore they are self-realized. They are standing on their self. That is mukti. That is liberated. And those who are, these karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogis, they are not engaged in the self. They are trying to realize self. Therefore all these students, or the disciples of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are liberated persons, because they are acting as such. So everyone should join this movement and become liberated, immediately. You preach like that. Try to understand and preach.

Śyāmasundara: They say that this is an authentic position, that it…

Prabhupāda: This is authentic position. We are serving Kṛṣṇa. This is authentic position. My position is part and parcel, to serve Kṛṣṇa. So actually I am engaged in service of Kṛṣṇa. That is my authentic position. This authentic position is at the present moment a little confused. But that now I am liberated, healthy, so if I continue healthy, that is my real position. Then I will keep always my self healthy. That's all. There is no change.

Śyāmasundara: And also this word integrity is there. It means integrated, or complete.

Prabhupāda: The more you become practiced to Kṛṣṇa's service, the more you are established, integrated. You don't fall down. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So when someone has integrity, you can see that they are one-minded.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are. Our concern is Kṛṣṇa. At ārati, we stand before Kṛṣṇa. The integrity is that Kṛṣṇa is the shelter. We are all serving, chanting Kṛṣṇa, ārati, someone is chanting, someone is dancing. The center is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, when you go to preach, when you write books, when you go to the play, the center is Kṛṣṇa. Then all our activities are on the platform of liberation.

Śyāmasundara: The idea is there also in this philosophy, that all of us know what is the real position, but that either due to weakness or a poor fund of knowledge or defiance…

Prabhupāda: Therefore we require guidance of the spiritual master so that we may not fall down.

Śyāmasundara: …or defiance, sometimes due to, even though we know the real position, we defy it, then we become sinful.

Prabhupāda: Defiance, there is no question. If you are actually engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, where is the question of defiance?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he is talking about someone who may know what is the law of God, but he defies it. Someone who wants to sinfully act. Either due to weakness or defiance we sin, but he says that the self-integrated personality is willing to be himself. He surrenders to what his real position is. This is called self-realization.

Prabhupāda: No. This self-realization practically-to be self means to remain as part and parcel, to serve.

Śyāmasundara: He says that full self equals full will. That when we are fully ourself, then we are fully willed.

Prabhupāda: What you mean? That is Māyāvādī. Full self, what is that? Then what is the question of part and parcel?

Śyāmasundara: That means when we make decisions that they are…

Prabhupāda: You cannot make decision. If you are part and parcel, then you have to take decisions from the whole. You cannot make. The finger does not make decision. I say "Finger, stand up like this, please."

Śyāmasundara: So just like when there are decisions to be made, because a self-realized soul automatically…

Prabhupāda: The decision is that I shall serve Kṛṣṇa as soon as ordered. But the order comes from the superior. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is ordered by Kṛṣṇa to fight, so he has to fight. That is all. Arjuna's decision was wrong, but when he takes decision from Kṛṣṇa, that is right. So we have to take decision from Kṛṣṇa's representative. That is right. We cannot make our own decisions. That is wrong.

Śyāmasundara: So full will means to follow…

Prabhupāda: Full will means full will to surrender, full will to follow the orders of the superior. That is full will.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So how does he ever come to the point of religion if he wants men to make their own decisions? How can we make our own decisions according to him?

Prabhupāda: There is no own decision. If we want to become self, that means I am part and parcel, so I have no personal decision. I have to take decisions from the higher authority.

Śyāmasundara: We were talking about the decision; you were talking about the other levels. The religious stage, you said, is obedience and commitment to God.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But to get to that stage, you have to go through the second stage. So how do you get to the second stage by making your own decisions without God's…, without God's representative? In other words, how can you come to the platform of the third stage from the second stage?

Śyāmasundara: It is gradual development. You gradually develop.

Prabhupāda: Why gradual development? Here Kṛṣṇa says, the Supreme Self, "Surrender unto Me. I give you all protection." Why gradual? Immediate.

Śyāmasundara: He is saying we are motivated by despair to come to this stage.

Prabhupāda: But there is no question. Christ says, or Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me, I'll save you," no more disappointment.

Devotee: I haven't heard in this philosophy yet where he has mentioned either guru or śāstra. How… [break]

Prabhupāda: … dealing factually, scientifically.

Śyāmasundara: You said (indistinct) just the opposite. You said, "Keep me talking. That is my life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a fact. Sa vai puṁsām… Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. That is Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, the great saintly king. About him it is described, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ. He engaged completely, twenty-four hours, his mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. And vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane, and he engaged his talking simply on Vaikuṇṭha, on the subject matter of Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prahlāda Mahārāja also speaks like that: tad vijñā, tad vijñā sa (indistinct). Glorifying, he is very (indistinct). So they have no conception of God, and whatever you believe, (indistinct). So God is imperson, He is not a person, so where is the (indistinct)? So they come to the (indistinct), scientist, another politician, another this, (indistinct) and they want to become a hero eventually, "I am a great philanthropist," "I am a great nationalist," "I am greatest philosopher." That… And when they finish their talks, then become (indistinct). No more talks-finished. (Hindi) Prahlāda Mahārāja says that (indistinct). He says that śoce tato muni vimukha-cetasa(?): "I am simply thinking of these rascals who are without God consciousness." Tato muni (indistinct): "They are averse to God. I am thinking of them." Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. These rascals, simply for māyā-sukha, temporary happiness, they are busy, always running here and there for constructing hundred and fifty-stories' house, and bring your money for that. Very busy, very busy. Just like Mr. Birla, he's always busy, (he) cannot see (you). They do not know that "What happiness I am creating?" (indistinct) Just at the end of my life (indistinct). As soon as I close my eyes and I go away from this body, all these things that I have created will be finished. I cannot remember, you cannot remember what was in your past life. But you are eternal, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So suppose I was a king in my last life, I was another Birla, or Birla's servant, (indistinct). Suppose I was Jawaharlal Nehru, or Gandhi. So what benefit I am deriving now? Who is respecting me as Gandhi or Jawaharlal Nehru? (indistinct) Even I do not know that my photograph or statue is being worshiped. I do not know that. Such foolish persons. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato. Simply for illusory happiness you have created gigantic show of civilization and advancement of material life. Māyā-sukhāya. Everything will (indistinct) as soon as there is death." That's all. Simply wait for death and then finished. That's all. Finished. He cannot say that "Let me enjoy." Actually, one of my friends in Allahabad, he was dying at the age of fifty-four. I was also fifty-four. So he was begging the doctor, "Doctor, can you not give me four years' life? I have got some unfinished work. Let me finish." (laughter) Such unfinished work. Suppose if you (indistinct), what will he gain? But he does not know where he is going next life. But he is begging the doctor, "Please save me. I have got some plan; it is not yet finished." So all these rogues and fools, they are doing like that: "I have got some plan; it is not yet finished. Please allow me to live." Suppose you are waiting for another four or five years or ten, what achievement you are going to do? That they do not know. Vimūḍhān. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja has classified them as fools and rascals and rogues. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Kierkegaard, he considers that truth, it's true (indistinct) subjectivity-personal, individual reflections…

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. That is another nonsense. Truth is true. Not that… I cannot fashion truth. This statement is nonsense. Truth is true. Fire is hot. That is true. If I imagine that fire is cold, is that philosophy? He does not prove. He does not know what is truth. One who does not know what is truth, therefore they imagine or manufacture truth. Just like Vivekananda, yata mata, Ramakrishna, yata mata tata patha, "You can manufacture your truth." That is going on. That is going on. The hippies, they are manufacturing their truth. So truth cannot be manufactured. Truth is truth. That is called absolute truth. Not relative truth, absolute truth. You can manufacture relative truth, but absolute truth is one: tattvaṁ phalaṁ yena (?), just like Bhāgavata says. Who is meditated upon? Who is worshiped? The Absolute Truth. So they have no knowledge of the absolute.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that…

Prabhupāda: All they know is the relative truth.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that passion, (indistinct) passion is truth.

Devotee: Sense activity. If my impulse is passionate nature.

Prabhupāda: But passion is working differently. Unless… Passion is all right, activity, but if you do not know the goal, then you are misled.

Devotee: This philosophy has been adopted by the hippies.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: The mode of passion is truth.

Prabhupāda: Passion is truth, that's all right. But the passion means activities. So where your activity will end? What is the purpose of the activity? You start your car, but if you do not know where to go, then what is the use of starting your car? Simply spoiling your energy and spoiling the petrol.

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Spoiling the petrol.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not know where to go. Is that very good proposition: "I do not know, that doesn't matter; therefore I start my car"?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Never mind if I meet with accident. That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: That's their philosophy, that it is not what is done or the object of the doing; it is how it is done. That is what they say. Not what is done but how it is done.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolish thing. Dog's obstinacy that is called. Dog's obstinacy. This philosophy is dog's obstinacy.

Devotee: He says that the normal state of man's condition is an anxious uncertainty, that a man is naturally anxiety and uncertain.

Prabhupāda: Uncertainty for them who do not know what is the end of life, the goal of life.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this anxiety and uncertainty is displaced or replaced by the passion of truth or faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These modern economic concept, they think that this anxiety is the impetus for economic development. They also say like that. Just like in America especially, they are never satisfied. They are manufacturing another machine, another machine, another machine. That hankering after another, another, they think it is really progress. In one sense it is all right, all right, but the attempt should be made, when there is goal. Just like you know how to rise up to the 102nd story that Empire Building. Now they're going step by step, and you know that "I have not completed the step, that I will go further, further, all right," but you know that "I have to go to 102nd story." But if you do not know, this is simply waste of energy. Or you should take the path of mahājana, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Even you do not know where to go, you have seen somebody is going up, so you follow him. You follow him. That is also nice. Even you do not know what is the goal, you see that this man, who is first-class, he has followed this path. So if you follow him, mahājano yena gataḥ sa, that is all right. That is also firm, fixed up. Unless you know the goal, the fixed-up point, then your energy may be misused, misguided. The passion, the energy, will be misguided.

Śyāmasundara: His idea ultimately is that that point should be God, that energy is used towards reaching God, through Christ. And he says the in-between stage…

Prabhupāda: Then he is right. If the ultimate goal is God and God should be known through Jesus Christ, that is a good proposal.

Śyāmasundara: And he says the in-between stage, this stage is (indistinct), in-between stage is…

Prabhupāda: Why if you know that through Jesus Christ, God can be reached…

Śyāmasundara: That is a higher stage he talks about. He is talking about three levels of existence. In the lower stage, there are… Anyway. The second stage is that they fix one point, no matter whether that point is the highest or not, at least there is a point fixed, and they'll act towards that point, like the piety…

Prabhupāda: That means the other two stages simply spoiling time.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. They advance slowly toward that stage of God realization.

Prabhupāda: So why not take immediately, directly?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That is what he is recommending.

Prabhupāda: So that is our process. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, in the Vedas, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If actually you want to know the highest goal of your life, he must approach guru. That is the (indistinct). In the Bhagavad-gītā, also it is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You try to understand the highest truth by surrendering, praṇipātena, by serving, by giving service; tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā, by inquiring. In Bhāgavata also, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. If you are actually inquisitive to understand the highest truth, then you must surrender yourself to the guru. That is the (indistinct). Not that by experience I go on, go on, go on, being baffled here, there, here, there, then automatically… No. You may not come even to the right path by such experience. Just like on an ocean, if you do not know direction, the path ship, how you will direct your ship this way, that way? You can go on this way, sometimes this way, that way, this way, that way, then you will be lost. You will be lost. All your endeavors will be simply baffled. You must have the direction; therefore the captain keeps that, what is called, compass: "Just here I am going to the this side." Actually, when I was coming…

Devotee: On the ship?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They were calculating (indistinct) immediately, "Now we are here. Now we are in Mediterranean, Italy, this that." I was asking. I was very inquisitive. But actually you (indistinct). By the compass and by the map, they are coming to the right direction. The captain's business is this. They have got different types of maps, and the compass.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Everything is there. The captain ordered, "Now turn the wheel this way. Stop the wheel this way." So therefore (indistinct). Otherwise he's nonsense. (indistinct) captain. If he has got the (indistinct) and everything, "Just go on this way." (laughter)

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Later existentialists, though, they said existential means that right now at any given moment, whatever I do is completely independent of all other sources, and I am just like a ship without a rudder; whatever I do is another path of action. At any given moment I can go any direction. And as soon as you have any idea that there is a God, then that is no longer existential; that is putting a direction on something which is actually (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: What is that existence? Foolishly driving? Does that mean existence cannot mean foolishly driving?

Devotee: (indistinct) existentialists, they talk like that.

Śyāmasundara: But this Kierkegaard, he was living in last century, he was prior to the modern existentialists, so he was still thinking about God. He came before God (indistinct). His final thought is that…, the final idea is that thought should be separated from existence, because existence cannot be thought, but it must be lived; that the thought process should be separated from the existing process or the acting process.

Prabhupāda: Our process is already guided (?). (indistinct). Just like in university if you want to be a doctorate in philosophy, three other big philosophers are appointed to guide you, and then you present your thesis. But these people are thinking without any guidance, (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says that the (indistinct) must come from Christ ultimately…

Prabhupāda: Then they're accepting some (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But his emphasis is on the acting part, not the…

Prabhupāda: Guidance is (indistinct), then where is different thought? What is that? If the guidance is one, then thought must be on the same relation as different thought.

Śyāmasundara: But he makes this statement that "The difference between God and man can be discerned in that God does not think; He creates. God does not exist; He is eternal. Man thinks…"

Prabhupāda: But He's eternal, He does not exist? What is this? What is that nonsense? He's eternal, He does not exist.

Śyāmasundara: He's thinking that the word "existence" as meaning something that becomes something else-developing, growing, that is existence. And in that sense God is eternal because He does not become anything else, He's always…

Prabhupāda: Then He's perfect. Your existence means you are trying to be perfect. You are making progress from one state to another.

Śyāmasundara: Becoming something else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So their existence means to…, the process of becoming perfect. Is it?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Whereas God is already perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So He does not in the same way exist, but He…

Prabhupāda: So if that is his philosophy, then why not take the direction from God, Bhagavad-gītā? Why you are making experiments from this platform to that platform? Why you are wasting time in that way? If he agrees that God is eternal, existing, perfect, then why don't you take direct from God, or God's representative? Why you are making experiment?

Śyāmasundara: He also recommends that. He says in this case he's simply formalized the difference between God and man, that God does not have to think; He creates. He does not think; He creates.

Prabhupāda: So he (indistinct) if God is omnipotent, all-powerful, as soon as… That we also say, Vedas, that He doesn't require to make plan how to do things.

Śyāmasundara: No. It just comes.

Prabhupāda: Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. His energies are so perfect and subtle, as soon as He thinks, "Let there be creation," immediately everything perfectly done. That is God. So if God is perfect in that way, then we should take guidance from God and mold our lives. That is perfect leader. That we are doing. We have taken Bhagavad-gītā, the words of God, and guide, that is the guide, and we are following. Therefore our principle, our process is perfect. We don't make any experiments for perfection. Take. Just like a teacher, if he shows that you write "A" like this, that is perfect. That's all. Why should I go on, lifelong, just like this child is doing, this scientist. No. But if he takes guide from his teacher, he immediately teaches, "Make this one like this, one like this, one like that. Three lines makes 'A'." Immediately. And he'll go on, lifelong, like this, like that-he'll never come to God. Nobody will like. So their process is like this. You go on like this-existential-one problem, one problem, one problem, go on. But he does not know "If I continue in this way millions of lives, I will never come to perfection," unless the teacher shows, "Do like this." That is their foolishness. Ciraṁ vicinvan. That is described, athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam [SB 10.14.29]. One can understand the truth, simply one who has got a little, little, fractional portion of Your mercy, he knows the truth. Others, athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśa. Prasāda means mercy; leśa, "a little fragment of Your mercy." One who has this, jānāti tattvam, he knows the truth. Others, na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan. Eko 'pi. There are many mental speculators, philosophers, all of them, if they go on thinking like that for life after life, they will never understand. Simply waste time. That's all. So why not try to have a little fraction of mercy of Kṛṣṇa? And Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] "Simply by devotional service one can understand Me." So why not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately? That is perfection. That is perfectional stage. Why should he speculate and be misguided by your so-called (sic:) existentional person?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I see what he's saying now. He's saying that our existence as men, man's existence, continually becoming something else, separates thought from our being, our actions, so that there is always a gap between the two, so that we're always becoming something. But when we are united, thought and being are united, then we cease to become.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you unite? Why don't you unite? Why refusing to unite? God is conversing, "Unite with Me. Yes. Surrender unto Me. I'll fix up. What is (indistinct)?" If that is the perfection, (indistinct), why don't you unite? That "You surrender unto Me," that is the difficulty. "You keep your individualism, I keep My individualism, but you surrender unto Me," then it is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: That unifies thought and being together.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the only way.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That seems to be the only way that thought and being can actually be united.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you surrender to God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Otherwise the thought will always be different from the action.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kierkegaard, actually, he understands the principles, but he actually understands that one has to surrender to God in order to (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He does. His statement is that "We are here as shown a new order, faith(?), a new pre-supposition that consciousness is (indistinct), a new decision, a learning, and a new teacher, God, in time." That is Christ. Christ is so-called "God in time." So he prefers Christ as the teacher.

Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa not teacher?

Śyāmasundara: Maybe they're not so personal as we are. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: All right. It is better to accept Christ as teacher, but why he does not follow? So all philosophers have been following these commandments of Christ, ten commandments. They are not following.

Śyāmasundara: No. That's all. [break]

Prabhupāda: …Caitanya Mahāprabhu, simply we think like this, with Christ. And (indistinct) another thing, against God. Simply (indistinct) say that "I am Christian. We are following Christ."

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But doing all nonsense against the instruction of Christ. So what is the use of such philosopher, and (indistinct)? Act.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, before I was going to Vietnam, I did not want to go. I went to a Catholic priest and I brought this Bible, and I said to him, "It says here, that 'Thou shalt not kill,' and yet you are saying that I should go and kill." And he said, "Yes. You should go anyway." He just said, "You should go anyway." No reason, no explanation, just "You go anyway and kill."

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw a very interesting thing yesterday, myself and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. We were reading in the Time magazine that there is a big fight going on in Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics. Now the Pope and, I think, the Archbishop of Canterbury…

Prabhupāda: Yes, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The two of them have been trying to work together to come out with a statement which will satisfy both Churches according to the scriptures. So Time magazine reports that after one and a half years of laborious work, they have finally come out with a 2,500-word statement, but the Pope said that this should not be taken as the Church teachings but should only be used for consideration. That means that after spending so much time, and still (indistinct). He said it should not be taken as a teaching, as a scripture.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of giving it?

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If people are the ultimate persons to consider, then what is the use of his giving this statement? He is not authority.

Śyāmasundara: That Archbishop of Canterbury, he is a good friend of Mr. (indistinct). They went to school together, and he says that in college they used to jog together. That was their favorite pastime. (laughter) Now he is archbishop.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And Brahmānanda sent me that picture, Africa, five thousand priests in that hospital, on account of their drinking habits.

Devotee: Five thousand!

Prabhupāda: Five thousand. In America. [break] …as soon as I cut with knife, the same blood is coming. Here also the same blood is coming. He is also crying, he is also crying. All these things are (indistinct). Then how do you say that this man has got soul and this animal has not got soul? Where is analogy? And points of similarities are there. Analogy means points of similarity. So the points of similarity, while killing either a man or animal, are all the same, then how are you bringing this analogy that he has got soul, he hasn't got soul? Where is his logic?

Devotee: (indistinct) illogic is the fact that they'll go out and (indistinct) (end)

SCHOPENHAUER.SYA

Arthur Schopenhauer

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. His philosophy is exactly the opposite of Hegel's rational, optimistic world order. His philosophy is often referred to as the philosophy of pessimism. And actually, he was a neurotic bachelor who lived alone with his dog, and he was known for his sexual indulgence and scandalous behavior.

Prabhupāda: And he was a philosopher?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The philosophy of pessimism. He says that reality is…

Prabhupāda: So why was he fond of dog? Pessimism? He found some value in dog?

Śyāmasundara: He says that reality is blind and irrational and capricious, or whimsical, and that actually life is an evil situation.

Prabhupāda: So how he is to establish his philosophy if everything is whimsical, irrational? How he will convince others if he is irrational and irresponsible? How he will make progress in his philosophical proposition?

Śyāmasundara: He figures his…

Prabhupāda: Man is called a rational animal. Although animal, it is rational. So how his irrational philosophy will be accepted by a rational animal?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't believe in rationality at all. Everything is…, no matter how hard we try to be rational, our plans are always upset. There is always some flaw to our reasoning.

Prabhupāda: Your reasoning may be full of flaws, that is the same thing. But why do you think others also reasoning will be with flaws?

Śyāmasundara: He was the first Western philosopher to read some of the Vedas. He read Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic scriptures. So he concluded that all phenomenon are mere illusions, or māyā. He uses that word māyā. This world is simply illusory.

Prabhupāda: That also we say, but it is not irrational. There is rationality. There is regulation. The sun is moving, the moon is moving-not irrationally, quite in order. Everything is in order. We cannot say it is irrational.

Śyāmasundara: Just like all of our desires that we have are never fulfilled.

Prabhupāda: That will never take place. Just like in a prison house, if the prisoners desire something, no, it will never furnish it. It is meant for punishment. So he'll have to abide by the desires of the jail superintendent. He cannot. Similarly, here every living entity is a prisoner. The superintendent of prisons is Durgā Devī. Durgā means fort: you cannot go out, conditioned. So therefore frustration is the law here.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he points that out.

Prabhupāda: So, but the thing is, that one should be rational that why there is frustration here? That "why" question is answered in the Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now it is spoiled. Kenopaniṣad. Why? That is the rationality. I don't want to be frustrated, but I am forced to be frustrated. I don't want to die, but I am forced to die. I don't want to become old, I am forced to become old. Now this rationality must be awakened to why this is happening. That is what is required. Nature is working in that way so that I may be intelligent to inquire "Why?" Then there will be question, and by questioning and answering through bona fide spiritual master, we'll come to the conclusion that what is the aim of this world.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this world is composed of two parts: idea and will. That the ideas are sense experiences that we perceive in the world, and they are mere representatives of the will, but the will is the ultimate reality.

Prabhupāda: That idea is illusion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But he says that will is the ultimate reality. Something is…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, will is ultimate reality, we also admit. Because we desire, we will like this. We will that we shall be enjoyer of the material world. Idea was that "I shall become like Kṛṣṇa." This was the idea, and therefore I will. And Kṛṣṇa gave us chance, "All right, you come here and fulfill your desire." So they are implicated in so many karma, and becoming more and more involved. So according to karma he is getting different types of body, and there is no end. It is going on.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, he says that the will is eternal, and it is always incarnated in one body after another. But he describes it as a force…

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a force.

Śyāmasundara: …an impersonal force.

Prabhupāda: Impersonal or personal, that will be discussed later on. First of all there is force, and he is being forced. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. He had associated with one of the modes of material nature, and as such he is being forced to act according to the nature. Just like you met your friend, she is forced. Nobody likes that, a wretched life, but she is forced, because she has associated with a certain material modes of nature. Just like these hippies, they are forced. They are coming from respectable family, there is no scarcity of money, and still they are lying on the street in wretched dress, wretched habits. So that this nature is forcing, "You do this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni. Because he has associated with a certain type of quality of the nature, he will be forced. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya sad-asad-yoni janmasu. The different types of species of life, the cause is kāraṇam, cause, is guṇa-saṅgasya. As he is associating with the material qualities.

Śyāmasundara: But is this force irrational and blind? This is what he thinks.

Prabhupāda: No, this is not irrational. That will. You desire, you will like that, and as soon as you will, immediately material nature is helpful: "Yes, take this help," and you take the help and we are forced.

Śyāmasundara: Supposing I will for some sense object… [break] Shall we begin?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Śyāmasundara: Yesterday we were discussing that Schopenhauer's idea that the world is basically an evil place. So he says that there are three means of salvation from this basically evil world. The first means he calls aesthetic salvation, or contemplation of higher ideas which transport us above passion, just like poetry, music, art. By contemplating these higher ideas, you become absent of desire. Desire drops away, and you become transported to a higher plane of not willing, above our will.

Prabhupāda: That is mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā. It is not a new thing. It is called paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59], and actually it is happening. Just like my students, so their former life and this life. They have given up their former abominable life because they have got better life, better thoughts, better philosophy, better eating, everything better. So mind can accommodate something. If you always fill up the mind with Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so there is no chance of the mind being filled up with any other nonsense. That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: This means of salvation called aesthetic…

Prabhupāda: This is salvation, because they are saved from the four kinds of sinful life: illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication and gambling. Because they have got better engagement, they don't like to do this.

Śyāmasundara: He is referring here to art, poetry.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. Here is art-we are painting. Our students are painting nice pictures. Art. And poetry, all our Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavatam are full of poetries.

Śyāmasundara: He is describing an experience of someone in the material world who sees a nice painting.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Śyāmasundara: They transcend the lower levels of consciousness, and for a few moments they become will-less or desireless.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we admit. We agree also. So we do not want to keep them for a few moments, but we want to keep them continually in that consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: This aesthetic salvation…

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Where is Rūpānuga? Inform them that we will come.

Śyāmasundara: This aesthetic salvation is only possible momentarily. Contemplation of poetry and art and music, these are…

Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. Just like practice. A child is practiced to play, but if he is constantly practiced to read and write, he becomes educated. So not momentary. It is a practice. If you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then other consciousness will automatically vanish.

Śyāmasundara: But he is describing only one type of salvation, called aesthetic salvation, where one transcends the normal state of desire by seeing art or hearing music or poetry. Only this momentary transcendence.

Prabhupāda: So why momentary? It can continue perpetually.

Śyāmasundara: By seeing pictures and art…

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You see Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa picture, you see the Deity, well-dressed Deity, artistically, flowers. So always see. Why momentary?

Śyāmasundara: So even aesthetically, one can have permanent salvation.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Aesthetic with a-I mean to say-solid program. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is all goodness. You find whatever the so-called philosophers will describe, we have got already there. Already there. If you say aesthetic salvation, this is aesthetic salvation. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. To worship the Deity. And you cannot derive benefit unless the aesthetic sense is applied to the higher authority, with reverence and respect. That is wanted.

Śyāmasundara: So he sees the second type of salvation from this basically evil existence…

Prabhupāda: That salvation he prescribes in the beginning, that is temporary salvation.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So this type of salvation called ethical salvation is permanent.

Prabhupāda: It is not salvation. It is for the time being. It is called sasana(?)-vairāgya. Sasana-vairāgya means just like a man dies, somebody dies, so his relative takes him to the crematorium or the burning place. So at that time he gets little renouncement, "Oh, this is the end of life. Why you are struggling?" And again, as soon as he comes from the crematorium, he begins again, the same thing. He forgets that he has to die. You see? So this kind of sasana-vairāgya will not help. Actually this is not salvation.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's only momentary.

Prabhupāda: Momentary. So no, we want to give actual salvation, perpetually aesthetic ideas about Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He is describing three types of salvation. That was the first type, momentary. The second type he calls ethical salvation. He says that because the aim of our life is the final satisfaction of the will, after which no more desires will arise, this being our aim of life…

Prabhupāda: That means the supreme will. He does not know that. Satisfy the supreme will. Just like father wants to do something, his son, his spiritual master or the teacher want. So yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. Our philosophy is to please the supreme, the spiritual master, the representative of God or God. That means supreme will. Not my will, but the supreme will. That is highest perfection. That is salvation. Just like a person who is working under the guidance of a superior man, actually they do so. Just like in factories there is a foreman. So ordinary workers, they are working, but the foreman is giving direction. Similarly, that means he is fulfilling the desires of the superior. He is not doing whimsically. He is doing according to the direction of the superior man present there. So this is the philosophy, that if you can satisfy the supreme will, then you are liberated. Just like Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is supreme will, order. If you can fulfill this, then your salvation.

Śyāmasundara: He says that immorality comes about through egoism, so that I…

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you think, that "Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is also a person, I am also a person. Why He is demanding?" Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan said, sophistry: "It is too much that one person is demanding that 'You give up everything and surrender unto Me.' " So these rascals, they cannot understand that to surrender to the supreme will, to satisfy the supreme will, that is salvation. That is salvation.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this egoism, or this desire, is crushed through love and sympathy for others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without love, nothing can sustain. If I do not love Kṛṣṇa I cannot surrender. It is not possible. Just like a small child, he is naturally surrendered to the parents because there is love. The child loves also the parents. So without the basic principle of love, the more you love, the more the surrender is also perfect. Just like a small child, you slap the child, he's crying, yet crying also with the words, "Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy," because there is love. Even in distress the child cannot forget. That is natural. Similarly, when you remain fully surrendered to the supreme will, either in distress or in happiness, that is your happiness. That is real happiness. This condition cannot be without love. In any condition, you remain surrendered. It cannot be done without love. When there is lack of love, this kind of mentality cannot develop: "In any condition I shall remain surrendered." Just like you are; you are, a whole society is carrying my order, not because I am superior person. There is love. Without love you cannot do so. You have got some bit of love for me, therefore you carry my order. Otherwise it is not possible. And I cannot also. You are foreigners, you are. Americans, I came from another country, I have no account. I cannot also order you: "You must do it, otherwise I will chastise you." Because there is love. It is a connection of love. I can also become bold enough to chastise you, but you also, what, in whatever condition, you carry my order due to the basic principle is love. And our whole philosophy is love. We are just trying to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, that's all. So without the basic principle of love, these things cannot be conceived.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that we must love those who are suffering. If we love those who are suffering, then we lose our desire.

Prabhupāda: That is… Why you should love the suffering and not those who are enjoying?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says everyone is suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually we say actually everyone is suffering. Anyone who is under the condition of material nature, he is suffering. That is real love. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo. Vaiṣṇava is described as the deliverer of all the fallen souls. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ. Vaiṣṇava… Just like why have you taken sannyāsa? You are going… Why, what is the meaning of preaching. You are not going to preach for earning some money. Money you can earn. Just like Mukunda, when he was here he could not earn, now he is earning some money. So not for money you have taken sannyāsa, but for sympathy of the others. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī, they took sannyāsa, gave up. Government said, "Why?" Out of love for the mass of people. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Being compassionate to the poor fellows, those who are simply wasting their time like cats and dogs, just to show them some sympathy, the sannyāsa order is there. Just to inform them that "This is not your life. Here is life: be Kṛṣṇa conscious." This is sympathy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that sympathy is really…

Prabhupāda: They are suffering from want of knowledge. In ignorance they are suffering. Therefore this is sympathy, to the suffering. They are thinking, "Oh, because I have got a nice car I am happy." But actually he is not happy. You see? So he may think, out of ignorance he may think, "I have got a nice car, I have got a nice apartment, I have got a nice girlfriend, so I am happy." But actually he is not happy. He is suffering. So this is sympathy. You have taken sannyāsa, you are going to preach, (indistinct), being compassionate with the suffering. That is utilizing. Because you love Kṛṣṇa and they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so you know that they are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore you are going to preach. This is the position.

Śyāmasundara: He says that real love means sympathy, not sex life.

Prabhupāda: No, sex life is animal. That is not love; that is lust. We always repeatedly say, sex life is lust. That is not love. Here is real love, that "They are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us do something so that they may understand the values of life." Here is love. Sex, simply means you satisfy your senses and the other party satisfies her senses. That is sex. That is lust. You are lusty, she is lusty, that is all. There is no love. That is going on in the name of love. Rascaldom. That is not love. It is lust; they do not know it. Lusty thing has been accepted as love. Mistake. Bhrama, pramāda. Bhrama, mistake. Illusion. Illusion is accepted as something else. Lust is accepted as love. This is illusion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that permanent happiness comes about when we lose our desire to live, when we deny the will to live.

Prabhupāda: That is frustration. That is frustration. That is suicide. Just like one man, who is very much suffering, he does not find any other means, then he cuts his own throat or hangs himself or takes some poison. It is like this.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose now I am desiring to live so much that I am always…

Prabhupāda: You desire or you not desire, that is because you, foolishly, you do not know that you have to live, desire or not desire, because you are eternal. You have to live. But if you don't live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will have to live in abominable condition like cats, hogs, dogs, trees, like that. We have to live. The modern civilization, they do not know that. The tree is also living, I am also living. So why these two different conditions are there? I am living, we are living, every one of us is living eternally, but according to our karma, according to our work, fruitive activities, we are getting different bodies. But we have to live. There is no question of not living.

Śyāmasundara: No, but there's a will…

Prabhupāda: Just like rascal, one who does not know, he commits suicide. He thinks that "If I commit suicide, then everything is finished." That is his ignorance. He is going to get another abominable body. Ghost. He becomes a ghost, so that he suffers more. A ghost means he has got subtle body, mental body, mind, intelligence and everything is there. Mind is there, intelligence, ego is there, but no gross body, so he cannot enjoy. That is ghostly life.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose I am bound up by the desire to live, so that I am always…

Prabhupāda: So you desire good desire, to live good. Change your desire. That is our program. Change your consciousness and live nicely with Kṛṣṇa. That is our program. We don't say, "You die." You live, but live with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you will become happy.

Śyāmasundara: So the will to live must not be denied.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do that. That is not possible. That is impossible. The same man who was doing all nonsense, and now they are mad after Kṛṣṇa. So will is there. Formerly he was willing to do all nonsense, now he is willing to serve Kṛṣṇa. So will is not vanished, but he has been engaged in a good willing process, that is all.

Śyāmasundara: Will can never be…

Prabhupāda: No, not for a second. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Not for a second you can live without will. You must will. Because we are living.

Śyāmasundara: What about the Buddhists, who desire…

Prabhupāda: That… They do not believe in the soul. They have no idea.

Śyāmasundara: They desire a state of non-willingness. The Buddhists desire a state of no will.

Prabhupāda: No, their philosophy is that willingness is a symptom at a certain condition of material combination. So you dismantle this material condition so there will be no more willing or no more suffering. That is their philosophy. But that is not fact, that's not fact.

Śyāmasundara: You don't think it's possible to stop willing?

Prabhupāda: No, how it can be, because you are permanent, you are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You do not die even after the destruction of this body, therefore thinking, feeling, willing… (aside:) Go and sleep. The thinking, feeling, willing actually carry you from this gross body to another gross body. How transmigration is taking place? Those who are, I mean to say, gross seer, they see that the body is dead, but he does not know the body is dead, but the willing is not dead. He is being carried away by the willing. That he has no eyes to see. He is simply seeing this gross body is dead, finished, but he has no eyes to see that this soul is now being carried away by the subtle body willing another body. According to his willing he gets another body, gross body, either demigod or dog, as he wills.

Śyāmasundara: As he wills.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the time of death. Because will is the carrier.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose he wills nothing at the time of death?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is not possible. Even in a dream you are willing so many things. The body is sleeping, completely stopped, but still why you are dreaming? [break] …does not inquire about his ātma-tattvam, self realization. Whatever he is acting is defeated, parābhava. He is not advancing.

Śyāmasundara: He points out that whenever we gratify our desires, that is so-called happiness, and whenever our desires are frustrated, that is suffering. But our desires are continuously frustrated, they are never satisfied. So he said that we are always suffering, and that the more intelligent a person is, the more he suffers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or by suffering, one's intelligence becomes manifested.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Suffering sharpens the intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Yes, adverse…, blessings of adversity. Just like a businessman, one, he loses some money in some attempt, he becomes more intelligent, that "This account, business, should not be done."

Śyāmasundara: I think yesterday Hegel described it in terms of conflict, that through conflict progress comes out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So here is a perpetual conflict with māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. This is a fight against, māyā is putting impediments, what I think it is right, māyā is breaking it.

Śyāmasundara: That's what he sees in it, the irrational.

Prabhupāda: Hitler's plan, Nazism, in so many ways, māyā has broke it into pieces. The Britishers, they also found the British empire, and māyā broke it. Roman empire… So, this frustration. But we are so fooled that in spite of repeated frustration, we are still trying to do the same thing. That is explained in the Bhāgavata, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. Chewing the chewed. He has been frustrated in so many ways, in sexual life, divorce this wife, again another accept, another wife. So what is the another wife? The same thing, sex, but he is making he is (indistinct): "Now again another." That is very nicely experienced in your country. In a year, three times divorce, three times accepting. That is named carvita-carvaṇānām, chewing the chewed. He should have experienced that "I am changing, but what is the change? The same sex life. So what is the use of changing?" But he has no intelligence. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. His business has become like that.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because there is no end to our striving…

Prabhupāda: There is end, provided… We can end everything, all these miscalculations, provided he goes to the right person. But that he will not go. He will become self-made philosopher. He will not accept guru.

Śyāmasundara: So because of that, there is no measure for his suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He will suffer continually.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if a man who is diseased, suffering from so many symptoms, he should approach a physician. But if he wants to suffer without consultation of a physician, he will suffer until death. What can be done?

Śyāmasundara: He says that this will does not care for the individual's satisfaction, but only for the perpetuation of the species. For instance I have sex life; it is not satisfying to me personally, it simply perpetuates the species.

Prabhupāda: In all species there is sex life, so why…

Śyāmasundara: But it isn't satisfying ultimately. The satisfaction dwindles immediately afterward. So he says that this is a trick by the will just to perpetuate the species.

Prabhupāda: So why there is a trick?

Śyāmasundara: I think that by this sex life I will be satisfied. That is a trick of the will. I find I am not satisfied by it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And simply the race goes on, the species goes on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice; that's all right. He must be given a point, or a goal, that here he will be satisfied. Where is that goal?

Śyāmasundara: That goal, he says, it doesn't exist.

Prabhupāda: He does not know. That is his goal.

Śyāmasundara: He says… I'll read a statement of his. He says that "The will forces a person to remain alive, even when there is nothing for which to live. It impels him to live and suffer another day, even when there is no hope or promise of any pleasant future prospects. It is like the alms which the beggar receives from life today, that he may hunger again on the morrow. For all men, irrespective of their status, the essence of life is misery and frustration."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a good point, but why he is hankering after something? Why he is hankering after…? He is being frustrated.

Śyāmasundara: The will. The will is…

Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is: there is a goal. He is hankering after that goal. But he has not as yet approached that goal, achieved that goal. Therefore, to understand what is that goal, one should approach a spiritual master. Tad vijñānātaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet.

Śyāmasundara: He has no idea of any goal; he says that life is a waste of effort.

Prabhupāda: That means he is not a perfect philosopher. The thing is that when I am willing to have something(?) solution, there must be some solution. There must be some solution. But I do not know what is that solution.

Śyāmasundara: If I will there is some solution, there must be some solution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example: the child is crying for the mother's breast-feeding, crying, crying, crying, there is solution. But as soon as the breast-feeding is given in the mouth, he is satisfied. So one should know what the child is wanting, why is this (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says that human life must be some kind of mistake, that the greatest crime of man is that he was ever born.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right, there must be somebody who punishes him for his crime. Is it not? The greatest crime, he is suffering, then there must be somebody who is judge that "You are criminal, you must suffer."

Śyāmasundara: You must be born.

Prabhupāda: "You must take your birth." So who is that?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't believe in God. Actually…

Prabhupāda: That means nonsense. Anyone who does not believe in, he is a nonsense, rascaldom.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because the world is so mad, it could not possibly have any author. Because if there was a God, that God would have set the world in order.

Prabhupāda: Then why he is mad? We have got experience that there are madmen, but there is hospital also for treating the madmen. Similarly, the world may be mad, but there is hospitalization. That he does not know. From practical experience we see there are many madmen. At the same time there is a hospital, lunatic hospitals also, so treatment is there. So he does not see that. He has no knowledge where is the hospital, how he'll get and be treated. This is accepted, the world is mad, that's all right. But there is treatment also. Because in our experience practically we can show whenever there is disease, there is some treatment of it. But he does not know what is the treatment. He is speaking of sinful life, what he was saying, just like, but he does not accept who is the judge to give me resultant action of my sinful life. The world is mad, but he does not know where the treatment of madman is done. He does not know. Therefore his knowledge is imperfect, and still he is philosophizing. That is the defect. Our proposition is that unless one is perfect, we cannot take knowledge from him. That is our proposition. Therefore our authority is Veda. Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Why it is perfect? Because it is given by God. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye [SB 1.1.1]. The Vedic knowledge was imparted to Brahma within the heart. So the perfect knowledge is coming from the supreme perfect. When you take that knowledge, then your knowledge is perfect. Otherwise you can go on. You can become Dr. Frog, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: Once before we were discussing a philosopher named Leibnitz. Leibnitz said that this is the best of all possible worlds, and you agreed, you said, "Yes, this is the best of all possible worlds because it's God's arrangement." But Schopenhauer says that this is the worst of all possible worlds.

Prabhupāda: But best of all? Why shall I say best of all worlds?

Śyāmasundara: In the sense that because Kṛṣṇa created it or God created it, that it was the best arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Why this? Any world, what Kṛṣṇa creates, that is all right. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ [Iso Invocation]. Everything is perfect. The world is perfect. So there is no doubt. But the nature of the world being material, there are three qualities. They are also working perfectly. As you work, so you get the result, reaction.

Śyāmasundara: So what would you say, if Schopenhauer said this is the worst of all possible worlds?

Prabhupāda: Why worst? We don't say worst.

Śyāmasundara: Because it is so full of frustration.

Prabhupāda: Nothing can be worst which is created by God. Why God shall create some worst? Why he says worst? What is he…?

Śyāmasundara: Because it is so full of madness and frustration.

Prabhupāda: Actually frustration, if it is taken seriously, that frustration may make him successful. Frustration, we get so many letters from our students, frustration, but now they are thinking that they are safe. So frustration is another help, but provided we take the real shelter. Then frustration is not bad. If you are put into some dangerous position, but if you know how to save from it, that danger will be later on a feeling of pleasure. "Oh, I was put into such pleasure and I was saved in this way." (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: He says that the working of the world is ethically evil. For instance, he observes that…

Prabhupāda: To some extent that is all right, because when you are in prison life, you will find evil. But that evil is good for you, so that you can learn some lesson, and when you are out of the prison you will not come again. That is the blessings of evil.

Śyāmasundara: The blessings of evil.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: For instance in the animal kingdom, he observes the brutality of one animal eating another animal, and he says that this is life's pattern, one disappointment after another.

Prabhupāda: So, the worst brutal is the human being who is eating animals. Animals are called brutal because he is eating another animal, and the human being who is eating animal, he is the worst brutal, because in spite of his sense, he is violating. So therefore, he is the worst animal.

Śyāmasundara: He says that happiness is a negative state. It only means a momentary suspension of suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, janme jana rage jana (Bengali). That a man is destined to be punished, he is put within the water. When he is almost on the point of suffocation, he is taken out. He feels how happy. He does not, "Oh, again I am down. Again I will be down." If I have happiness here, it is temporary relief. But if he is intelligent enough, then he will not do something which may put him into that unhappiness condition.

Śyāmasundara: He says that suicide is no escape from evil because the will is indestructible and eternal.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. He is putting himself in more. By suicide he becomes a ghost. That is more troublesome. Yes. Because the body given by God, he is killing. So from this body he has to accept another body. So unless that point comes, he has to remain a ghost. No body. Suppose I have to live in this body eighty years. I'll make suicide. So up to five years I have to remain a ghost, no body. Then it may be chance to get another body. This is wrong. Killing of any body, because na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So one can put this argument, that the soul is everlasting, so what if the body is killed? But that's all right, body is killed, but you cannot kill the body to hamper its progress. One living entity is destined to live in a certain body. If you destroy that body, then he has to wait for the next body. That means you are interfering with his progress. Therefore you are sinful. Just like I am living in this apartment. If somebody by force drives me away, it is criminal. If I go to the police, that "I was living in this apartment and this man by force has driven me," is it not criminal? So I am not lost because I am driven out of this body. But you will be liable for criminal punishment because you have forced me to leave this body. Ramakrishna Mission says that what is the point if a man or animal is killed? The soul is immortal, so what is this? What is that? The rascals, they do not know. The real philosophy is here. The soul is destined to live in a certain body for a certain period. If you immaturely stop it, then you become responsible. Exactly like that. I am living in my apartment. If you by force drive me away, you are criminal. They do not know all these things. Imperfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the bodies are manifestations of the will…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we also say, but whose will?

Śyāmasundara: "The will," he calls it. "The will," in the abstract.

Prabhupāda: No, that is nonsense. Will, when he says will, the will must be from a person, of an individual person. That he does not know.

Śyāmasundara: We only have experience that will is coming from a person.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But what about the will of electricity and gravity, these forces of nature. Aren't they also…

Prabhupāda: That is also will of a person. The maker of the computer machine, he has will.

Śyāmasundara: That's right. A computer machine has a will also.

Prabhupāda: Will…, not will. It is so mechanically arranged, it is acting. Just like a tape is singing…

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: …outside your door: "Prabhupāda is singing." But I am not singing.

Śyāmasundara: The computer doesn't…

Prabhupāda: I have made it to sing. The computer is not the ultimate. The real brain is the who has made it.

Śyāmasundara: The computer doesn't have a will, but it expresses the will of some man.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mechanical arrangement is so nice by the brain of the manufacturer that is acting.

Śyāmasundara: I see. So he says that this will must continuously reincarnate…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …time after time, there is no stopping it.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: So that we cannot become nothing; we must endure…

Prabhupāda: No. We are something. How we can be nothing? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We do not become nothing even after the destruction of this body.

Śyāmasundara: Therefore he says that we must endure our state, our suffering state, and make the best of a bad bargain.

Prabhupāda: You should endure, at the same time you should find out the way that your suffering may be stopped. That is intelligent. That is intelligent.

Śyāmasundara: He says that life is more than disappointment; it is a form of deception, and all human beings born into this world are condemned not to death but to life.

Prabhupāda: That we say, but we give also hope that in this way we shall be happy. Your life will be blissful. We say this is condemned life and this is blissful life. Come to bliss. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But he has no such knowledge. He is simply staying with the condemned side. He has no knowledge of the blissful side. Therefore he is imperfect. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānā. This kind of philosophy will be accepted by a man of his category: he is blind and another blind man will accept it, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: So tomorrow we will finish Schopenhauer. Today is finished. [break]

Prabhupāda: The will cannot be stopped. Therefore you have to reform your willing process. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says…, he mentions a third type of salvation, called religious salvation. He says that this is the highest. But his idea of religious salvation is ascetism. That by denying the will then we can quiet the will.

Prabhupāda: Yes that is in one sense, that you don't will anything which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa's service. That is our prescription. Ānukūlyasya saṅkalpaḥ prātikūlyaṁ vivarjanam. This is, out of the six items of surrender, these are the two items, that you should give up things which are not favorable in execution of devotional service. You should give up. That sort of willing, you should give up. And you should accept everything which is favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So willing cannot be… Our process is to purify willing. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. So, just like you are working or others are working, somebody is working, "I am American, I must do this as American." And others say, "I am communist, I must do this." This is superfluous. According to designation, they are willing. And when you come to this willing: simply to serve Kṛṣṇa, that is designation-less. That sort of willing we should practice. Not willing with designation. He is thinking of willing of designation.

Śyāmasundara: So practically that is the same as not willing.

Prabhupāda: No. Not willing you cannot say. Not willing bad, but willing good. That is called purification. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. To… We are willing. We are willing to serve to Kṛṣṇa, we are willing to preach Kṛṣṇa's glories. But this kind of willing. Willing is now reformed. This is real willing. Because I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so I must will according to Kṛṣṇa's will. Just like this hand is part and parcel of my body. It is moving according to my will .

Śyāmasundara: He says that through self-mortification that we can destroy the willing process altogether.

Prabhupāda: That is impossible. That is rascaldom. It is not possible. Nobody can destroy the willing process.

Śyāmasundara: I'll just read what he says. He says, "Eventually the ascetic will exist only as a pure knowing being, the undimmed mirror of the world. Nothing can trouble him more. Nothing can move him, for he has cut all the thousand cords of will which hold us bound to the world, and as desire, fear, envy, anger, drag us hither and thither in constant pain, to such a man life is an illusion to which he must be indifferent." So his idea is that you cut all the cords of will which bind us to this material world.

Prabhupāda: Then what remains?

Śyāmasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: That means he is the philosopher is of śūnyavādī.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Śūnyavādī, nirviśeṣa śūnyavādī. So we are killing this kind of philosophy, śūnyavādī. But you cannot become śūnya. It is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He has a similar idea to the Buddhists. He says that we repudiate desire in passing to nirvāṇa, or nothingness.

Prabhupāda: And that is not possible. This is, this is simply a lack of knowledge. Just like the same philosophy, if there is danger before me I cannot protect me from the danger, I simply close my eyes, "Ahh. There is no danger." It is like that. The danger remains there. He thinks by closing the eyes, he thinks, "Now I am out of danger". That is his foolishness. You know? The small animal, rabbits or monkeys, they close the eyes. There was…, I do not know, I heard that there was an artistic competition, prize distribution, that one has to paint a picture, that the…, before the mother the son is being killed. So the artist has to paint the facial expression of the mother. So, so many artists paint so many ways. And one artist painted the mother closed the eyes. He got the first prize. Because this kind of suffering cannot be expressed. The best thing is closed.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is their philosophy. Close the eyes. "I no more, no longer exist." But that will not work. You have to exist my dear sir, and you have to surrender, you have to become a tree. Just like tree exists, it has got life, but practically it is not existing: cut it, insult it, kick it. That kind of existence will be the salvation for these rascals, to remain a tree for ten thousand years, that's all. No sense.

Śyāmasundara: He says where there is no will, then there is no ideas, no world…

Prabhupāda: That is all explained. That means when there is no sense of pains and pleasure, then they say there is no will. But, this not will. It is suppression. Suṣupti, it is called suṣupti. There are three stages: one stage is that I am awakened; another stage is that I am not awakened, I am sleeping but dreaming; and another stage is unconsciousness. Three stages. But in three stages, the will is there.

Śyāmasundara: Even in the unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because we see unconscious person, as soon as comes to consciousness, "Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there." Wherefrom it comes? It is called suṣupti damna(?). Suṣupti damna means you are sleeping, but when you are awakened you immediately remember all your duties, past and present and future.

Śyāmasundara: The will is never killed.

Prabhupāda: No it cannot be. That is the function of the soul. The soul is eternal, therefore willing is eternal. It can be suppressed for sometime. Just like death. What is death? Death means stop willingness for seven months, that's all. That is death. And as soon as, according to your will, you develop a type of body and come out from the mother's womb, and the willing begins again. Again. Death means suppression of will for seven months, that's all. So suppression of willing… Just like if you are chloroformed, if you are anesthetic given, you can suppress your willing. Therefore you are unconscious. Even somebody is cutting you, you don't protest. But that does not mean the will is not there. It is there. It is suppressed, by artificial means. In other words, will cannot be killed or it can be stopped. If you train your willing process badly, then you have to suffer life after life. And if you train your willing nicely, then you go to Vaikuṇṭha, back to Godhead

Devotee: The impersonalist in the brahmajyoti, is his will in a dormant state also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is willingness in a negative way: "I shall not will. I shall not will. Because I have got experience that by willing I have suffered so much, so I shall not will." But that stage you cannot stay for a long time. Then you have to again will in the same way.

Śyāmasundara: What about these men who perform great austerities, lash their bodies, starve, and…

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is also the same thing, not willing. They have no knowledge of good willing; therefore they simply want to kill bad willing. Because they are insufficient in knowledge that in this way willing cannot be reformed. Just like a child is accustomed to play. If you stop playing, then he will be dull, he'll be diseased. But you must give him good engagement. Just like DDD, he stopped playing. He was worshiping Jagannātha, and he said, "It is māyā." He stopped. Just like your daughter, when she is engaged in worshiping Deity, she is engladdened. So give good engagement, good willing, and he will automatically give up all this nonsense bad willing. But if you want to stop artificially willing, that will be not possible. That you can stop for the time, but it will again act.

Śyāmasundara: So you go through so much trouble…

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Māyāvādī philosophers, the impersonalists, because they are not willing to serve Kṛṣṇa, they stop willing. They again fall down. Vivekananda comes and opens hospitals. Just like your Christian missionaries. Yes. This is there. Willing, you cannot stop. You have to will badly or goodly, or godly. So better try to will godly, then badly will automatically… This is our process. You don't stop willing. Yes, we will-or Kṛṣṇa's service.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all for Schopenhauer. (end)

HEIDEGGER.SYA

Martin Heidegger

Śyāmasundara: So (indistinct) has these four qualities, or characteristics. A (indistinct), of understanding that I am dying, and living with that understanding, understanding that I am existing, and having different moods.

Prabhupāda: So I am existing till my death. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And when death takes place, I am finished.

Śyāmasundara: Well, that's the common understanding in most…

Prabhupāda: No. He is understanding that "I am existing up to the point of death. After death I am not existing." Is it not? They are rascals.

Śyāmasundara: But later we find that he does believe in some kind of immortality, but he is talking about the (indistinct), or the (indistinct) of individuals that normally, on a normal level, they believe that the body will end or it will die at a certain time, so that they act in such a way with that in mind. And he calls that, that knowledge that I will die some day, that this creates anxiety or dread in the living entity.

Prabhupāda: So this is animal, animals' philosophy, that "I shall die." Then that very attachment, he is imperfect, that he dies. We do not agree that we will die. Actually that's not a fact, because in my life I can understand that I have existed as a child. So the body of child is not there, but still I am existing. Similarly, when this body will be finished, I'll exist. So I exist eternally. I shall not die. That is the philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the essence of the human being is in his existence. That is that there are numerous kinds of…

Prabhupāda: His idea of existence is: from birth to death. Not beyond death. He did not exist before his birth, and he'll not exist after his death. So his existence means from the point of birth up to the point of death. So that is not very good philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because… A human being has numerous possibilities open to choose from-different kinds of being for himself. He can choose different kinds of being for himself.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Śyāmasundara: The possibilities of becoming this or that are his. He can choose. He can elect what he wants to be in the future.

Prabhupāda: That is also not proof. As soon as he gets a body, his thing is settled up. Just like you have got this body-white body. You cannot become black body. Or a man who has got black body, he cannot become white man. This is wrong philosophy. How you can settle up? Because he is considering the of body, he is considering the existence means the manufacture of the body from the womb of mother up to the destruction of the body. So this body, as it is made, there are different types of body. So that cannot be changed.

Śyāmasundara: What about if someone can choose to become a doctor or a lawyer or a physician or anything like that.

Prabhupāda: That is quality; that is not the body.

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't say body, he says that he can choose his different kinds of being, how he will be, whether he will be a lawyer or a doctor, like that. He can be good, he can be bad…

Prabhupāda: First thing is that if he has no clear idea of existence, then what he can be, that will depend on the idea of existence. So as he is thinking of to become doctor or lawyer and teacher, similarly he should know that he eternally exists, then he can also make a program what he can become next time.

Śyāmasundara: He says that that is the essence of existence, that we can become something which we choose, of our own choosing.

Prabhupāda: That means he is talking of this existence. According to him, the existence finishes after death. That is poor fund of knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't make that judgment. He simply says that the living entities are motivated by that feeling, that they will die. He doesn't say whether there is life or death.

Prabhupāda: That means he has no knowledge. We say that he does not die, he exists eternally. That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't make a judgment if there is life after death or not, he's simply like a psychologist examines what motivates people's behavior or…

Prabhupāda: No. If you do not know whether he exist in the future or not… Just like a child, if he knows that "I shall exist as an old man," then there is question of what I shall become. If he does not know whether he'll exist or not, then what is the idea of becoming a teacher, or I can become (indistinct). First of all you should know that I exist only for this duration of life or I exist forever. That is real philosophy. Real philosophy is, "I exist forever." That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like I existed as a small baby, I existed as a boy, I existed as a young man. I remember all those existences, although the body is finished. Therefore the conclusion is that I shall exist when this body is finished. That is real knowledge. And it is common sense. If I existed as this child, I existed as a baby, I existed as a boy, I existed as a young man, and I am existing as old man, so why not I shall exist when this body is finished? In this life I experience so many bodies, they have left, they are no longer existing, but I see that I am existing; therefore why shall I not see that I will exist after the death. What do you think?

Devotee: What do I think?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are understanding what I am speaking?

Devotee: Hm. Actually I am sort of in awe of (indistinct), but I enjoy listening. (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he was being in awe of being with you, but he wasn't listening to the words.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. All right. Then, this is the idea of existence. Therefore the philosophy is that I shall not be very much interested what I am going to become in this life. My philosophy should be that as I am eternally existing, what is my eternal occupation. That is philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But he is talking about…, a man defines himself in this world without any knowledge, previous knowledge, and he has… All his knowledge is that he has observed that other living bodies die, or living entities die, so he has the anxiety…

Prabhupāda: No. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone has knowledge that I existed as like this. Then he becomes… It is common sense. So how he existed as a child, as a baby, as a young man, everyone can see. Any old man can see. So it does not require any high knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He is more or less describing the position of most of the living material entities, that this is the knowledge they operate on, that they will die. That even though they don't die, but at least most people believe that they will die, so they operate with this anxiety and this dread.

Prabhupāda: So everyone is afraid of death. That animal is also afraid of death. Then? What is the special philosophy? This is animal, also they think, "I will die," he's afraid.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are numerous possibilities to choose from, to become what we like. There are unlimited possibilities. We can become this or that. So that we can choose our essence, that the essence of a man is in his own hands. He can choose his own essence, what he wants to be.

Prabhupāda: That we are also stating, that essence is that "I will exist in future." Is it not? So if one knows that "I will exist even after destruction of this body," then he will think of essence differently.

Śyāmasundara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: That is knowledge. But if we simply take account, just like "I shall go from this room to that room, no more. I have no knowledge," that is not perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world is not a container with a men inside of it, but that the men and the world are not separate. They are not separate. The world and the living entities are not separate. They are bound up together so that man and world are one encompassing…

Prabhupāda: What is the position of man in relationship with the world?

Śyāmasundara: That the world is the sphere of human concern. That a man finds himself in the world, so that he must become concerned with it.

Prabhupāda: Mm?

Śyāmasundara: That it is not that the world and the men are separated.

Devotee: Different.

Śyāmasundara: But that we are bound up together by this world's concern or care. Because a man is in the world, he must care for it, he must have concern for it.

Prabhupāda: Mm. He must concern first.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. This is the relationship, care, between man and the world. The man must care for the world.

Prabhupāda: Concern, there are different kinds of concern. Just like… Again, concerning that what is actually my relationship with the world. So everyone's relationship is that he wants to enjoy this world. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everyone wants. Everyone is struggling hard to get a better position in this world. That means to enjoy this world. So this is going on in the animal kingdom also. The animal kingdom also. Just like a dog, if he finds another dog coming, or another (indistinct), he will begin barking. So the real concern is just like we have created nationalism that "Nobody may come in my place." So this kind of mentality is there in the animal also. So human body should be concerned like that, like animal. He thinks like that.

Śyāmasundara: No, he's… In the beginning he is simple analyzing the relationship, basic relationship…

Prabhupāda: Basic relationship is that I want to enjoy this world. Does he agree to this point or not? I want to enjoy this world to the best of my capacity. That is my concern. Everyone is struggling for that.

Śyāmasundara: He simply says that between (indistinct), or being there, and the things of the world there is a relationship of care or concern, that's all. He doesn't say whether it's…

Prabhupāda: That is a concern, that I want to enjoy this world; others may not interrupt. That is my concern. I am living in this world, I am living in this apartment, I am asking my assistant, "Let not others come here, disturb me." So that is my concern. Just like in your country, they keep dogs: "Beware of dog," "Please do not come here." Eh? So this is my concern. I want to enjoy this world to the best of my capacity and others may not disturb me. This is plain and simple concern. What, beyond this, what is the concern? That is going on as nationalism. That is going on as individualism. That is going on as communityism, so many things.

Śyāmasundara: I guess if you look at it, every object that we relate with, we are concerned about it or for it only because it gives us or supplies us our pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That is my concern. I am keeping my things in the closet, locked. Why? (So that) my things may not be taken by somebody. This is real concern. I am keeping gun, (so) one may not hurt me, or may not attack me. That is called self-preservation. That is the concern. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. So that is in the animal kingdom. Everyone is (indistinct). Defence, what you call defence, that we are defying, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. Our concern are divided into four parts. My first concern is where shall I eat, how shall I eat. And the next concern is where shall I sleep. And next the concern is how shall I enjoy my senses, who will be my partner. And next concern is how shall I live, how shall I defend. These are the concerns. And these concerns are there in the animals. So how human beings becomes better than animals? If the human being has got the same concern as the animals, then how the human being is better than the animals? What is that concern?

Śyāmasundara: He said that…

Prabhupāda: I'll give you just time to point out how that philosophers are less intelligent.

Śyāmasundara: He actually tries to answer those questions later, but in the beginning he comes to the same point, that what should we be concerned with here are the…, the concerns that he has just described, that just existing. Because in the end, even we are concerned with these things, still they disappear when we die, so there is really no basis for them. They are based on what he calls "nothingness"-eating, sleeping, mating, defending…

Prabhupāda: But if you don't eat, will you exist? Why nothingness? This is another rascal. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: Because they are caused by anxiety.

Prabhupāda: This anxiety must be there. You must arrange for eating. We are speaking on the point of concern.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what can I eat, that's a concern.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. If I do not eat, there's always some anxiety. If there's no food…

Prabhupāda: No. If I do not (indistinct), there must be eating. There must be eating.

Śyāmasundara: So if I feel hungry, I become full of anxiety, "Where is food? Where is food?" He says that this anxiety…

Prabhupāda: Not only that; before becoming hungry, I will acquire food. Just like we go in the market and purchase food. At that time I am not hungry, but I know I shall be hungry, I shall have to eat; therefore we shall have to prepare foodstuffs before I become hungry. That is concern. When I am purchasing foodstuff, I am not hungry actually, but still I know that I shall become hungry in the after…, lunch time, so I must prepare for. That is our concern. I am arranging for an apartment, not that at that time I am feeling sleepy, but I know that I will have to sleep at night. That's why I must have a place. This is my concern.

Śyāmasundara: He calls this concern is the symptoms of…, characteristics of existence, and he says that this existence has priority…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also say. Because I want to exist, therefore my concern means the struggle for existence. I am struggling, how to exist.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that this existence has priority over the essence. In other words, only when we get beyond…

Prabhupāda: What is that essence?

Śyāmasundara: This is what the man, a man has to choose-find out his essence. But first there is existence, before that search…

Prabhupāda: But the existence, therefore we say that your real problem is unless you know what is your position, then there cannot be any tangible program. If I know that I exist eternally, then my real concern should be how to check all these concerns so that I may live eternally without any concern. My question will be: "I am existing eternally. Why there should be concerns?" I must live and exist eternally without any concern. Why there have to be so many concerns? I do not want. Suppose the death. I know I shall death, but I do not know; I do not want to die. That is my concern. That my concern should be how I can live without death. That is real intelligent concern. There is death. I know I will die, but I do not wish to die. That is also fact. Suppose you are… If I take a sword and want to kill you, you know that you will die, why don't you accept, "All right, kill me. I'll have to die, so kill me"? Why you protest? Why you protest? Why you fly away? Why you (indistinct) defend? You know you shall die. So die now. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Because he wants to enjoy…

Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not want to die. That is the philosophy. Death is there. (air raid siren in background) Just like here is the siren, and you are (indistinct) die, but why he's defending? Why this siren is there, "Now death is coming, be careful"? That means, in other words, "I do not wish to die." That is my real concern, that I do not wish to die, but death is forced upon me. Therefore my concern should be how to avoid it. That is real concern. That is real philosophy. Why you forget this psychology, that "I do not wish to die"? Somebody will… Even animals. I have seen one pig, a small pig, what is called, pig, small. So the master took (indistinct). Psychologically he understands that he is taken, now he will be killed. Just crying, "peh, peh, peh." So why? This is a pig. He doesn't want to die. So everyone does not want to die, but still he knows that he will die. Therefore the real concern should be that I do not wish to die, that death is forced upon me, and that is my real concern. That is real philosophy, whether there is possibility of. Know that. That is intelligence. That intelligence is (indistinct) there in the human form of life. Animal, they, although they know it that death is there, but I don't want to go, die, but they have no capacity to stop death. But human beings can do that.

Śyāmasundara: So Heidegger says that this (German-indistinct) or this being there, has two characteristics. First is priority of existence over essence. In other words, first I exist, and inside of this existence I can find my essence. During this existence, I can find my essence. And the second characteristic…

Prabhupāda: What is that essence?

Śyāmasundara: Well then he…, his philosophy comes to that point, what is man's essence.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: First of all he says that my existence is prior. First of all I have to exist and live, and then inside of this existence I may come to the point of discovering my essence.

Prabhupāda: But he has not discovered the essence.

Śyāmasundara: But he comes to that point.

Prabhupāda: What is that point?

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Well, that's at the end.

Prabhupāda: End? You know. You have read it?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that essence?

Śyāmasundara: He calls it authenticity. Authenticity means when I am something of my own. Authentic means when I am authentically me, he calls it.

Prabhupāda: What is that, "authentic"? He does not explain?

Śyāmasundara: It's not explained very clearly.

Prabhupāda: But what do you understand by this authenticity?

Śyāmasundara: Well… (pause) The thing is that in the same sense that Kierkegaard is saying that man has to create… [break]

Prabhupāda: Authentic means reality. What is that? Authenticity means reality?

Śyāmasundara: It means being free from guilt, being free from anxiety, being always resolute in purpose.

Prabhupāda: So reality… I see this is reality, that I don't wish to die but there is death. Authenticity means how to live without death. That is all. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. (pause) (indistinct) that the conclusions of the philosophy, by going through the different steps (indistinct). First of all, these two characteristics of existence, or (German-indistinct). One is that existence is prior to essence. The second is that (indistinct), or existence, is mine, that it is a personal. Everyone has the feeling that I…

Prabhupāda: I can exist. Others may not exist. Is that philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: No. That is also a person(?) outside of you, but that my existence is personal.

Prabhupāda: Does my existence, it is first; other existence is secondary? Just like (if) I eat meat. I must eat, because I must have meat, so poor animals must be killed. So his existence is this, neglected. Is that their philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: Well he doesn't say that. He just says that "I have the feeling, the unique feeling that I exist individually as a person."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. I exist individually and others may not exist. Is not that philosophy? So I must exist, others may not exist. So others also must think like that. That is animal. I am thinking that "I must exist. I don't care for you." You are thinking that you must exist, you don't care for me, so therefore there is struggle between you and me-struggle for existence. We are fighting. I am thinking I must exist, you are saying you must exist. Is it not? (pause)

Śyāmasundara: He says that man's actions or reality is the existence or his (indistinct). In other words, from the fact that I exist, I can find my…, that is my essence, that is my reality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This should be done individually, collectively. Therefore there is group of nationality, therefore combined together should exist. The other group also, they are also thinking. So there are different parties. (indistinct) struggle, struggle for existence, survival of the fittest. If you exist killing me, then you are fit. And if I'll exist killing you, because you want to exist at my cost, I want to exist at your cost, so there is struggle. So if you can kill me, then you are fit, and if I kill you, then I am fit. Survival of the fittest.

Śyāmasundara: By this existence or (indistinct) that a man can choose himself or win himself by his own improvement, that he can realize himself. If I exist then I can realize myself, what I am, what is my essence. And there are two types of existence, he says: authentic existence and inauthentic existence. Authentic existence is what one feels when that existence is something of his own. [break] So he says there are two kinds of existence: authentic existence and inauthentic existence. So a man who is leading an authentic existence, then he is something of his own. But he is leading an inauthentic existence, then he is busy, excited, or preoccupied, what they say, when he has lost himself, when he loses himself. That is inauthentic existence. Thus authentic existence is when a man is always aware, self-aware, of his existence: "What I am doing now, what I am doing now, what am I doing now." So he says that an inauthentic existence is fallen existence, that a man falls into averageness or everydayness or what he calls publicness, where he lacks individuality and becomes the group self, and his personal decisions are not based upon a individual…

Prabhupāda: Everyone is living an inauthentic existence because… That is animal existence. He knows only the span of life from birth to death. That's all. That is inauthentic existence. When he knows that this is temporary… Just like suppose we are preacher, living in this apartment, say for a month. (indistinct). So this span of existence, one month or ten days or six months, this is inauthentic. But my preaching work, as preacher, I am (indistinct), that is my authentic existence. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Does he think like that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Because whatever you're doing, you are always aware of why I am doing it, what is it for, like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore the conclusion is that a human being should know, should distinguish what is authentic existence and what is inauthentic existence. That is human life. At least we should know it. That is the order of the Upaniṣads, that anyone who knows this, he is brāhmaṇa. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti. The dog does not know it, but a man can know this. If he knows it, then he's a brāhmaṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that men have the tendency to fall into this not making their own decisions. Their decisions are not based upon a personal basis but upon group decisions, and just because someone else does something, I do it.

Prabhupāda: That is authentic decision.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Authentic decision. You must make your decision; therefore there is no… In any human society there is law, there is division, there is social etiquette, social obligation, so many things. So we are not independent to decide that we have to abide by the customs and etiquette.

Śyāmasundara: So he says because someone else does something in a certain way and they get a good result, we automatically imitate.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Because we are hoping for the same result.

Prabhupāda: Just like a thief, he gets more money by stealing, but that is not allowed by the society. It is law. So that is not very good.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that is not a good faith. But our decisions are not (indistinct) based upon…, our authentic, personal commitment, whatever that is.

Prabhupāda: Mm?

Śyāmasundara: Whatever that may be.

Prabhupāda: That he does not know, but we know. He is simply philosopher. We know that we must exist for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we know, but he does not know.

Śyāmasundara: He is…, he is looking for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: He does not know this.

Śyāmasundara: But he does not know.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is looking. Everyone… The struggle for existence means everyone is looking for "How shall I exist forever?" But he does not know. Everyone… Nobody wants to die. Everyone wants to free himself from the clutches of death, but he does not know it.

Śyāmasundara: He wants to find the basis for individuality, strong individuality.

Prabhupāda: Individuality you may keep. It doesn't matter. Every one of us is individual. Every one of us is struggling, but we must know what for we are struggling, what is our existence. These things are required. Individuality is there. We are preaching this individualism. We do not say that impersonalism. No. So is that all right?. No. Still more.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Oh, yes. Still more. He says that a man finds himself flung into the world, and he finds that he is a fact within this world. He cannot deny that he is here. And he is subject to the resultant mood of fear or dread that comes about when he discovers that there is no escape to being here. "I am here. There is no escape." So there is immediate anxiety always within the man, that "I am here." So…

Prabhupāda: So when one is under some condition, then there is (indistinct). So therefore, this material world, every one of us are living under conditions and everyone is anxious.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He said that the basic mood of existence is anxiety.

Prabhupāda: Just like there was a statement by Mujid Rāman that "I was put into a cell, and nobody could see me, there was no paper, I was not given paper, I did not know what is happening outside," and (indistinct) he has described. So this kind of existing under certain conditions, that conditional existence is cause of anxiety. [break] He does not want to die, and the death signal is there. The death signal is always there, but he has… Under the influence of māyā, he is thinking that "There is no danger. There is no danger." But that danger can take place any moment. And he is not making any solution. That is called māyā. He is thinking, "I am safe." What is safe? I am sitting here and talking, and immediately my heart can fail. So death can take place at any moment.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this kind of care or concern as a result of anxiety is what prompts us toward reality. This drives us toward reality, this fear, this concern.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. The reality is… Then you have to concern… Just like when you are diseased, when you are in the trouble, some implication of legal matter, then you go to the lawyer, how to get out of it. When you are diseased, when you are troubled, you go to the physician. Similarly, if you are actually eager to get out of the anxiety, then you have to go to somebody who knows that Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Simply by knowing Me," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. "You should simply try to understand Me." Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. "Anyone who knows Me, how I appear, what I do, what is My function," that means anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, "then after living in this body, he does not take birth again." And if there is no birth, there is no death, there is no disease, there is no trouble. As soon as there is birth there must be… Anyone who has taken birth, he must die. That is the law. Anywhere. Anything which is born must die, must get old, must be diseased. Anything, even you take material things-this machine-it has got a date of birth, and there will be a death when it will stop functioning. And it is getting older. That is the law. But here is Kṛṣṇa says that "You can stop death, simply by understanding Me." And if you stop birth, punar janma, then you stop other things. Because death is there, then there is birth, but if there is no birth, there is no death. You have to think like that, that these are the problems of anxiety: birth, death, old age, and disease. So here Kṛṣṇa says that you can stop your birth. Punar janma naiti: no more birth. Then I can stop all other things. Because as soon as there is birth, the other things are there. But if there is no birth, the other things are not there. That makes you anxietyless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is required. This is the condition to solve all anxieties.

Śyāmasundara: He says this anxiety is evidence of finitude.

Prabhupāda: Mm?

Śyāmasundara: He says that anxiety is evidence of finitude, or that being finite, opposite of infinite.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: If one is finite, then there is automatically anxiety.

Prabhupāda: But the…, we want to be anxietyless. That means we are infinite, according to that philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Anxiety is there when I think that I am finite. Just like when I think that Mr. Bhatiwalla(?) is trying to get us out, then we are in anxiety. And if we know that there is no such thing, we can live here… So we want to live infinitely. When that is disturbed, there is anxiety. Therefore it appears that we are infinite. But we have been put into finite condition. That is the cause of anxiety. Now, therefore, the intelligent person should try to come to the platform of infiniteness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. There are many others… There are many devotees, just to avoid this birth, death, old age, many have attained success. These things are stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore the conclusion is it will become anxietyless to have infinite life. One must (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the conclusion. And there is no question of avoiding. If you avoid, then you…, it must be remain entangled. It is a question of must. You must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness if you actually… Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends that, that when he was asked by his father what is the best thing he had learned, he said this is the best thing: that he should give up this materialistic way of life and take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is the best thing. Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dehinām means those who have accepted the material body. For them. And dehinām, one who has accepted this body, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5], because he is eternal, but he has accepted something which is not eternal, asat. It is limited. He is unlimited, but he is entrapped by something which is limited. Therefore, sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Just like we have got our own land in Māyāpur, so we can go and live there. There is no question of Bhatiwalla. But we won't go there. We have accepted this apartment. Therefore we must change it. Is it not? We are paying three thousand rupees-still anxiety, because we know at any moment he can be a trouble and kick out. So asad-grahāt. It is not your place you have accepted. Similarly, because you have accepted this material body, then there must be anxiety. Anyone, he may be Mr. Nixon, or he may be Mr. Ayub Khan, or a man in the street, or an ant, or Brahma, or anyone, because he has accepted asad-grahāt, this body, it is not exist; he must be in anxiety. This is knowledge. Therefore you have to learn knowledge from authorities-Prahlāda Mahārāja. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says, recommends, that you should give up this, this way of life. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. This acceptance of body is just like to fall down in a dark well, blind well. So one should give it up. How give it up? How it can go? Harim āśrayeta: just take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. So that is the meaning. That means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You give up this material consciousness. Material consciousness means how I shall live, how I shall eat, how I shall sleep, how I shall enjoy my senses, how I shall defend. This is material existence. This is material existence. And spiritual existence means I take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, He is my protector, I am (indistinct). This. (Sanskrit). To have firm faith that I have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, He is giving me protection. I have no anxiety. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving that. So take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and become anxietyless. That's all. That is our propaganda. "Come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be free from all anxiety." That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that when we have thoughts and ideas, that their intention is always directed towards some object, but anxiety has no intended object. If I am anxious about something, or address something, it is not real because there is no object toward which it is directed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you have no objective, that anxiety is very troublesome. Therefore we have got also anxiety: how to become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. You are also thinking that "Whether I have chanted sixteen rounds or not? Whether I am deviating from my duties to become (indistinct)?" There is anxiety, but we have got an objective. But others, they have no objective, and full of anxiety.

Śyāmasundara: He calls that "nothingness."

Prabhupāda: That is nothingness.

Śyāmasundara: Nothingness, that anxiety and despair.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we can (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Because people like that, they see the world as lacking any supporting structure. There's no meaning. So then tomorrow we'll begin to see how he strives toward giving meaning to it, this nothing; how something comes out of it. [break] So we'll finish up Heidegger today and start on one other philosopher. Yesterday we were talking about Heidegger's (German-indistinct) or "being there," and he says that truth is the revealment of the understanding of being there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without being, how there can be truth? To be is truth. "I am," this is truth. I exist, that is truth. If I don't exist, then where is truth?

ātmānaṁ sarvato rakṣet

tato dharmaṁ tato dhanam

ātmānaṁ vikṛti sati

tato kutaṁ tato dharmam

Ātmā, my identity, if I protect, then I can protect my religion, I can protect my riches. And if I cannot protect myself, then where is my riches? Where is my religion? That is our Vedic understanding. So to exist, self-preservation, that is the basic principle of all truth.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the understanding of my existence, of my being here, is truth. So when this, when all the details of why I am here and what I am here for become revealed, that is truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am true, therefore why I am here, that is truth. The basic principle is "I am truth." Therefore "Why I am here?" This is intelligent question. So that… These questions was asked by Sanātana Gosvāmī to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The first question: "Actually what I am? I don't want miserable condition of life, but this world is full of miserable condition of life. So why this is?" This is actually human understanding, when one comes to this enquiry that "I do not want any miserable condition of life, but why this miserable condition of life is forced upon me?" Nobody wanted the Pakistan war, but somehow or other it was enforced. Similarly, there are so many difficulties. Śītoṣṇa sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, āgamāpāyino, they come and go, but they come and go, or they come, that's a fact. So we have to tolerate. But the question is why these miserable conditions come? Why I should tolerate? But even if I tolerate, that is not finished. So why this is the position? This "Why?" position is actually human life. That is called in the Vedānta-sūtra, brahma-jijñāsā. After trying (indistinct), when one is unable to make any solution, then the question comes "Why?" That is the beginning of human life. That is the beginning. Otherwise animal life. So animal life, this is animal is being slaughtered, but it cannot question, "Why I am being slaughtered?" That's all. "Why you are slaughtering me? I am also a living entity." It has no such (indistinct). That is animal's life. And when there is question "Why?" that is human life. "Why?" Kenopaniṣad.

Śyāmasundara: He claims that the consciousness of death makes a difference in the choices that an individual makes during his life. He says that the consciousness that this body will end, this consciousness guides him to choose in a certain way.

Prabhupāda: So what is that way? The atheists, they think that "I shall die. That will finish. So let me enjoy to the best capacity. There is no question of pāpa and puṇya." That is atheist philosophy. "I have got this opportunity of sense enjoyment. Let me enjoy, to the best capacity, my senses." Because he has no next life. Void. Because after death everything is zero. So "Why should I care for 'This is pāpa, and this is puṇya.' Whatever is palatable for me, I shall do that." But he has got also consciousness of death. Another, we have also got consciousness of death. So our philosophy is that before death, let us inquire in such a way that we may go back to home, back to Godhead. Both of them have got the death consciousness. The one whose spiritual is zero, he is doing all nonsense. And one who knows that spiritual is not zero-there is real substance-so "Let me prepare for death." [break] (end)

WITTGENSTEIN.SYA

Ludwig Wittgenstein

Śyāmasundara: This morning we are discussing a philosopher called Ludwig Wittgenstein, a contemporary German philosopher. One of his major so-called contributions is what is called a verification principle, which reads, "To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true." That means anyone who wishes to understand a proposition must first know the conditions under which that proposition is true, that is, what information is required by way of evidence of its truth.

Prabhupāda: So the modern world's proposition is that "I am this body." So that is untruth. What does he say about this?

Śyāmasundara: Well, if I claim that I am this body, that means I have to know all of the conditions which make it true that I am this body. Then if all these conditions are true…

Prabhupāda: First of all we must discuss what I am. Then we have to see whether I am this body or not. And what do you mean by "I am"? You are individual, I am individual. How I exact my individuality, and how you exact your individuality? What is the symptom? What is the meaning of "I am"? First of all you have to understand, what do you mean by "I am"? "I am" means my activities, "I am." That is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: My activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So try to understand, "I am" means my activities. So how my activities are going on? Presently we can see my activities are going on by the movements of my senses, of the limbs of the body. Therefore we come to the point that the moving force is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: That which moves the limbs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That moving force, if "I am," then I am not this body, because as soon as the moving force from the body is gone, the body is of no value.

Śyāmasundara: They would say that then "I" cease to exist. Then "I am" no more. When the body dies, then I am no more.

Prabhupāda: Then how do you come to "I am"? "No more" means you came to the existence of "I am." How did you come to exist as "I am"? If you say that after the stoppage of movements of the body, when there is no more "I am," then how this "I am" came into existence? That is the question. Wherefrom this movement came?

Śyāmasundara: They say that the condition or the evidence required to know if this is true, that I came from…

Prabhupāda: The first thing is that if I identify myself with the body, the body means movements of the limbs. Now if something is wanting, and the limbs do not move any more… But that moving force is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: They would say that it is a combination of chemicals or some…

Devānanda: They postulated… The French philosophers at one point postulated that within the matter itself there is a potential of consciousness. They called it elan vital, living potential within matter, and when you put the matter together in certain positions, then that living potential is able to come out, and when the material nature changes again, it is no longer manifested.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense, because when the body becomes from the lump of matter, why that living potentiality, consciousness, does not come again?

Devānanda: Because the elements are no longer in suitable arrangement for life to be…

Prabhupāda: If you know the elements, you say that "You add this element." Just like when the motorcar stops for want of gas, you take gasoline from the petroleum store and it starts again. Either you do it, otherwise you are rascal, you are putting some wrong theory. If you say that it is a combination of chemicals, and you know that addition, that these living symptoms are there, then bring that chemical and add to it and let the body go out again. If you cannot do that, then you are nonsense. There is no sense of your statement.

Devānanda: So in other words, if a body dies from heart failure, they should immediately be able to remove that heart and put in a fresh heart from somebody who has just died, and it will come back to life. But it doesn't do that.

Prabhupāda: No. There are so many other things, and not only one case of heart failure.

Devānanda: But there are many, for example…

Prabhupāda: Don't you…

Śyāmasundara: We want to stick to Wittgenstein.

Prabhupāda: The main principle is when the body is called dead, why don't you put some chemicals and make it alive again? You say something is wanted. What is that something? That you do not know. But we can say what is that something. We say that something is the soul. That is wanting.

Śyāmasundara: So far that proposition, you said "I am" means that the soul exists. That is your proposition.

Prabhupāda: My proposition is that "I am" means I am the soul, spirit soul, not this body.

Śyāmasundara: So they say that if we are to verify this proposition, to prove that it is true, then we have to know what conditions under which it is true. What are those conditions under which it is true?

Prabhupāda: It is very simple. So long the soul is there, it is moving, and as soon as the soul is out, it is not moving. Anyone can understand. You say something is wanting. I say it is soul, definitely. But you do not know what is that something. Therefore your knowledge is imperfect, my knowledge is perfect. My knowledge is supported by Bhagavad-gītā, but your knowledge has no support; therefore your knowledge is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: In order for that statement or that proposition to be true, there must be evidence.

Prabhupāda: This is evidence: that there is no soul. The self, the individual soul, is now departed; therefore this body is lump of matter. This is evidence. And because the soul is there, therefore the body changes or develops. Just like if a child is born dead, then the body does not develop or changes. It remains in the same condition. But so long the soul is there, the child grows or changes his body. That is evidence. Because the soul is there, therefore the child is growing or changing body from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth. Suppose a child is born, doctor says it is dead child. You say something is wanted, but what is that something? You do not know. Otherwise, if you know, you add it. What is that something? Suggest, what is that something? Simply vague idea something, that is nonsense idea. That is not science. You must give, "This is wanting." Suppose that you say that the blood, the redness, just like nowadays blood supply is the theory, so what is this blood? Blood is a liquid, red liquid, like chemical or something, with some salt. So you can add salt, just like in cholera cases, they add saline injection. So dead body, you give saline injection, make it red by some color, give him life. If you say that "Red blood is now white," so make it red. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. There are so many chemicals. If you say the redness is the life, then there are many natural products, just like jewels, by nature it is red. Why is it not alive? Why it is not alive? By natural redness of something, if you say that is the cause of life, then there are many jewels. What is called, jewels?

Śyāmasundara: Ruby.

Prabhupāda: Ruby. Why it is not alive? Redness is there. Therefore we have to accept your identification with the soul, not with this body; otherwise this is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: He is not disputing that there is soul or there is not soul. He is merely putting forward a principle to test something, if it is true or false.

Prabhupāda: This is the test. This is the test. Because the soul is there, therefore the body is moving.

Śyāmasundara: So that is the evidence for…

Prabhupāda: That is the evidence. Anyone can see. Now we say, "My father is gone. Oh, my father is gone." Where has he gone? Your father is lying there. Why do you say gone?

Devānanda: They say he has passed away. But what is passed away?

Prabhupāda: Passed away… What is this passed away? That means you have not seen your father. You have not seen your father, still you identify the body as your father. Or your father identifies your body as yourself. Just like the father has not seen the son, the son has not seen the father. Therefore it is illusion.

Śyāmasundara: The movement of the body is evidence that the soul exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only evidence. Because the soul is there, that individual soul.

Devānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when death comes, at the moment… Before death, the whole body is alive, completely alive and functioning, and in a split second it's all finished, completely dead. That would be an evidence that it is not a chemical combination. If it were a chemical combination it would die slowly.

Prabhupāda: The reason is that the soul, when quitting this body, there is examination what kind of body he is going to get. Superior examination. Either you call nature or God, there is superior… According to his karma he will get a body. Now, that requires a little time. So what kind of body this soul will get? As soon as it is decided, then immediately he's transferred to that kind of body, and this body remains there.

Śyāmasundara: This would also, it seems, satisfy his second requirement for verification, that sense observation or information ultimately derived by means of sense observation is necessary for verification.

Prabhupāda: This is sense observation. It not nonsensical; it is complete sense, sensible, that now this soul has passed and quit this body-death. So the body is not the man; the soul is the man. This is quite sensible. It is not nonsensical. Otherwise how do you explain? You explain what is that distinction between dead body and living body. What is your sensible explanation, according to this philosopher?

Śyāmasundara: He isn't quibbling with that. His only philosophy was that he was putting forward ways of determining what is true and what is false.

Prabhupāda: So that is evidence that this body is false, the soul is true. That is our statement. Body is false. Just like this, this (indistinct), this sweater, this is false. It has got a hand but it is false hand. The real hand is within, within the shirt, that is real hand. Similarly, this body also. It is compared with dress. The dress is false. The man who puts on the dress, he is true. Similarly, the soul is the truth and the body is false. If you want to make distinction between false and true, then this is the distinction: the soul is the truth, the body is false.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy is that mental activity which seeks to analyze or clarify the meanings of scientific propositions.

Prabhupāda: This is philosophy: to study what is this body and how it is moving. This is analytical study. And you come to the understanding that the body is a dead lump of matter, there is something which is called the soul. Because the soul is there. This is scientific truth. One who has not this knowledge, he is not scientific; he is foolish.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, if you make a scientific proposition that "Because I am, the body moves," that is your scientific proposition?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is scientific proposition.

Śyāmasundara: Then philosophy is a clarification of that proposition.

Prabhupāda: Clarification… It is supported by the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. He says that, the greatest authority, God Himself, He says that as the body's changing in different phases of my life, similarly, ultimately, at the end, this body is left and another body is accepted. That is scientific. It is not our bogus proposition. It is supported by the whole Vedic knowledge and especially by Kṛṣṇa, and who can be greater authority than Kṛṣṇa? That will be scientific. Just like modern science: if somebody proves some theory and it is accepted by the scientific world, then it is accepted as scientific; similarly, our proposition is accepted by Kṛṣṇa, the greatest scientist; therefore it is fact. But you have no support by the scientists, what you say; therefore your proposition is nonsense. My proposition is accepted by the greatest scientist. He has created this whole world.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophers present old facts in new light, but philosophers do not discover any new facts.

Prabhupāda: Because they're all rascals and fools, what they can discover? (laughter) They simply theorize on their rascaldom, that's all. That is their business. (indistinct) There is no fact. And those who are rascals, they believe them. That's all. So we are not such rascals, because our knowledge is received from the greatest scientist, Kṛṣṇa. I personally may be rascal, but because I follow the greatest scientist, therefore my proposition is scientific. I do not know how this dictaphone is working, but somebody has said "This is dictaphone," I accept. And it is working. That is my scientific knowledge. I may not be the mechanic, but I am working.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy is a process which attempts to clarify God, not that itself it has factual content.

Prabhupāda: This is clarification. Mostly the people are under illusion, identifying the body with the self. But we are clarifying that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul." Therefore it is a scientific proposition.

Śyāmasundara: So we are clarifying a scientific proposition with our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is it. Philosophy means the science of sciences. Another definition of philosophy is "the science of sciences." All sciences are derived from philosophy. So philosophy's actual position is on the higher level than the sciences.

Śyāmasundara: Another definition he has is that "Philosophy is the pursuit of meaning." Pursuit of meaning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because philosophy is the searching out about the ultimate truth, therefore it is pursuit; and the ultimate truth is meaning. That is nice. But there are different philosophers, and so far we are concerned, we know that the ultimate meaning is Kṛṣṇa, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes; therefore our philosophy is perfect. They are simply pursuing, but we have reached the goal. That is the difference. They are on the way, but we are on the spot. Is that right?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. (laughs) He says that the propositions of logic and mathematics are tautologies, he calls it, or uninformative assertions which state nothing factual about the world. Just like, for instance, "Two plus two equals four." On paper it is just two symbols: the symbol 2, and the symbol 2 and the symbol 4. But actually that is a void arrangement. It doesn't state anything factual about the world.

Prabhupāda: What does he want more practical?

Śyāmasundara: He says that these can be demonstrated but not verified.

Prabhupāda: Why not verified? Two rupees plus two rupees equal to four rupees. This is verified.

Śyāmasundara: But that's something else.

Prabhupāda: That is…, the mathematics is required for that purpose. You have got two rupees, I have got two rupees; when combined together it becomes four rupees. That is mathematics. This is practical proof. Why does he say that there is no practical use? And philosopher, to become philosopher is not to become a nonsense. But because he theorizes something nonsensical, he's become a philosopher-that is not philosophy. This mathematical truth is practically true.

Śyāmasundara: Let us say the proposition that "The sum of the angles of a triangle equals 180 degrees," that is a proposition. It can be demonstrated on paper but it cannot be verified by experiential data.

Devotee: If you're steering a ship you can make use of it, can't you?

Śyāmasundara: It can be made use of and it can be called valid or invalid.

Prabhupāda: What does he want more?

Śyāmasundara: He wants to know true and false. That this "Sum of the angles equal to 180 degrees" can be said to be valid or invalid, but it cannot be said to be true or false.

Prabhupāda: Then in that way, what he proposes, that is also false, because in this material world there is no truth. Everything is false. So his philosophical proposition is also false.

Śyāmasundara: Actually, he came to recognize that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then that's all right. Then why he is bothering about something false? That is another foolishness.

Devānanda: I thought that that was a Māyāvādī theory, that everything is false.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants to accept false, again make botheration.

Śyāmasundara: No. He does not say false, he says that the sum of the…

Prabhupāda: Better thing is that as we say, it is not false, but it is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say true or false, he says that the sum of the angles…

Prabhupāda: Just now you said that it cannot be verified. That means false.

Śyāmasundara: It cannot be verified if it is true or false. But it can…

Prabhupāda: That means doubt. It is doubtful.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the proposition, "The sum of the angles of a triangle equals 180 degrees."

Prabhupāda: That is accepted by the scientists and mathematicians.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That can be said to be a valid proposition or an invalid proposition. Demonstrated.

Prabhupāda: Why invalid? It is valid because all mathematicians, all scientists, they have accepted it.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. It can be demonstrated that it is valid on paper. But it cannot be said that it is true or false by our experiential data.

Prabhupāda: No. That can be said, it is false, because in this world everything is a temporary manifestation. So this world itself is a temporary manifestation. This big sky and this planet and everything is a temporary manifestation.

Śyāmasundara: So even that law is temporary, that "The sum of the angles equals 180 degrees"?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That's only temporary.

Prabhupāda: Temporary in this sense: because the existence of this universe is also temporary. So whatever is there is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: But even when this universe ends, doesn't that law carry on?

Prabhupāda: Just like this waterpot. This waterpot, you can say false or true. False means when it breaks, then it no longer will be waterpot; it becomes earth again. From the earth it is made, and again it becomes earth. Therefore the shape of this waterpot is not false but temporary. That is the right word. It will not remain as earthen pot for very long time. It will break, and when it breaks, it again becomes earth, from which it was made; therefore this shape is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: That example of the pot, we can verify if it is true or false by our senses.

Prabhupāda: The senses, it is also senses. I am taking it as waterpot, that is I am taking it by my senses. But the shape of the waterpot is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: That can be proven.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever there is in this world, even this house, this big house, this is also temporary.

Śyāmasundara: But what about a principle, like "Two plus two equals four"?

Prabhupāda: Principle is truth, but the manifestation is temporary. Principle… Just like earth. Just like we hear from Bhagavad-gītā, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca: [Bg. 7.4] "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, they are My separated energies." And because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, and Kṛṣṇa is true, therefore that energy is true. But this interaction of the energy, manifestation of different things out of that energy, that is temporary. Therefore it is called material energy or external energy, temporary manifestation.

Śyāmasundara: What about the proposition that "Two plus two equals four"?

Prabhupāda: That is also temporary.

Śyāmasundara: That disappears when this universe disappears?

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the universe disappears, everything disappears. Who is going to calculate "Two plus two equals four"? Everything is finished.

Śyāmasundara: The principle does not carry on, despite…

Prabhupāda: The principle will carry on when again there will be manifestation. Just like this waterpot, it breaks, it becomes earth, and again from earth we make waterpot. Therefore this principle that the waterpot is made out of earth, that is a fact, but the waterpot as we see, that is temporary. Creation of the waterpot from earth is a fact. Similarly, this material world is a creation out of Kṛṣṇa's external energy. That is a fact. Kṛṣṇa's energy is fact. Kṛṣṇa is fact.

Śyāmasundara: What about something that cannot be tangibly seen, like a mathematical calculation or an equation?

Prabhupāda: You cannot see so many things. That does not mean that it does not exist. Your power of seeing is limited. Why you are depending on seeing?

Śyāmasundara: No. I want to take something that we all know, like "Two plus two equals four," that principle. There's no waterpot or anything visible involved, just a purely abstract principle, "Two plus two equals four."

Prabhupāda: Abstract or concrete, it doesn't matter. What is abstract for you is concrete for other. [break] …Kṛṣṇa is concrete. Paraṁ satya, actually that is the only truth. So this idea, abstract and concrete, that is relative.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the idea, "The sum of the angles of a triangle equal 180 degrees."

Prabhupāda: This is calculation.

Śyāmasundara: It is calculation, but there's no…

Prabhupāda: Relative knowledge, because we cannot know beyond 180 degrees according to your geometrical calculation. But your calculation, everything is imperfect because you are imperfect. So because it is going on, for our purpose we take it as truth. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: It's only working in two planes, or two dimensions.

Prabhupāda: Just like this body. This body, I can say is false, but suppose somebody kills somebody, he cannot argue that it is a false thing. If it is killed, why the state should by so much anxious about it if it a false? No. Even it is temporary, even if it's false, but it has got temporary use. You cannot disturb that use.

Śyāmasundara: He says that propositions pertaining to metaphysical realities such as we have been talking about, like the soul, he says they are neither chronological, that is uninformative assertions, neither are they empirical propositions. So it is impossible to demonstrate either their validity or to verify them.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Śyāmasundara: Statements like "the soul," "I am the soul."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: We can neither say that is valid or invalid, neither we can say it is…

Prabhupāda: It is valid. It is not invalid, it is valid. You cannot understand it. Try to understand it. It is valid. "I am the soul," that's a valid proposition. How you can say invalid?

Devānanda: He also says that it cannot be demonstrated also.

Prabhupāda: This is demonstration. Demonstration, this is demonstration, that as soon as I go, actually I go (indistinct). That is demonstration. What do you want more demonstration?

Śyāmasundara: He says we have to know what conditions are required to show that it is true and then satisfy those conditions. So one condition you say is that as soon as the body dies, then there is no more movement. But what is there to prove that the soul has left the body or that there was ever a soul in the body?

Prabhupāda: That is the proof. Because the soul takes shelter into the womb of the mother, the father injects the soul-that is the statement of the śāstras-in the womb of the mother, and the mother gives shelter. So the body develops from the womb of the mother. There is conception, pregnancy. That is the proof.

Śyāmasundara: Ultimately there is nothing to measure, when the body dies, to determine where that soul went.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can measure by knowledge. Just like Bhagavad-gītā has said, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. Just like a man has committed murder, killed somebody. He is arrested, he is taken away from your sight, but you can know that he has committed murder, he will be hanged. That's all. You do not require to go there and see that he is hanged. It doesn't require. That is foolishness. If somebody says that "I did not see that the man was arrested," that's all right, but "I did not see that he was hanged. I cannot believe it," no. You believe or not believe, it is a fact.

Śyāmasundara: So what he is saying is that because you can't see the soul after it leaves the body, therefore we cannot say if the soul exists or does not exist.

Prabhupāda: But why does he believe of his eyes so much? Why does he not accept that his eyes are so imperfect that he cannot see the soul?

Śyāmasundara: Either directly or indirectly he says that we have to be able to prove…

Prabhupāda: No. The same example, just like a man has committed murder and he is arrested and taken away. So others, they know that this man will be hanged. And one was, "Oh, I have not seen, so how he is hanged?" But that is foolishness. The state law says that if a man has committed murder he will be hanged. So you have to see through the law, not with your eyes. The nonsense eyes, what can they see? So see through knowledge, through books.

Śyāmasundara: So our ultimate verification does not rest with our senses but with the authoritative…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Authoritative knowledge, that is real seeing. That is real seeing. Just like we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, take for example. Then all we are fools and rascals, that we are after Kṛṣṇa? People may say that "You have not seen Kṛṣṇa. Why you are after so much, Kṛṣṇa?" They can say. But then you are all set of fools. Does it mean that we are all set of fools? Then how we have seen Kṛṣṇa?

Śyāmasundara: Wittgenstein, in that respect he answers that these metaphysical or mystical ideas, even though they are not expressed in words, can be felt or appreciated without knowing whether it is true.

Prabhupāda: No. That is knowing. To know through authorities, that is knowing. That is real knowing. That is the process of Vedic knowledge: to know through the authorities. The same example: if somebody is asking, "Who is my father?" then he has to know through the authority of mother; otherwise there is no other way. So therefore to know through authority is perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: These modern scientists, they fall back on that idea that "Well, I accept that there is something mystical or metaphysical, but because I don't know it is truth, still I appreciate it." Or "It cannot be experienced, we must consign it to science."

Prabhupāda: Truth is truth. Either we appreciate or not appreciate, it does not matter. Truth is truth.

Śyāmasundara: So they fall back on kind of a blind faith…

Prabhupāda: But you are in blind faith. Those who do not accept the authorities, they are in blind faith. Just like one who does not know that what is soul, he is in blind faith, accepting this body as self. He is in blind faith.

Śyāmasundara: He has no real evidence that my self is the body either.

Prabhupāda: He is blind, because it is not the fact. The evidence is there, but he is in blind faith. The whole world is working in blind faith-"I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani," "I am American," "I am Englishman." Simply bodily identification. The whole world is a set of fools only. That's all. That is stated in the śāstras: yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who accepts this bag of three dhātus, kapha, pitta, vāyu, as self, he is an ass.

Śyāmasundara: He says that atomic propositions, or the components of compound propositions, depend for their validity upon the reliability with which they accurately picture atomic facts. In other words, suppose there is some proposition that this ring is gold. This proposition is part of a compound proposition which tells where the ring came from, how it was originated, who wore it, so many other facts. But only you take one proposition, "this ring is gold," he said this proposition depends upon the reliability with which it accurately pictures the facts, if it is true or false. That statement, "this ring is gold," it must determine how accurately it pictures the facts before we can say if it is valid or invalid proposition.

Prabhupāda: Suppose I say it is gold. What he will say? What is his proposition?

Śyāmasundara: He'll say that first of all you must give us a list of conditions to determine why it is gold, under what conditions it is gold.

Prabhupāda: That is everything. That he is speaking also, that is another condition.

Śyāmasundara: There must be certain conditions met before…

Prabhupāda: But how he is speaking is also fact, that he is speaking under certain conditions. Everything in this material world, that is on condition. So his philosophizing is also under condition. So everything is conditioned. Why does he not understand first of all himself, instead of trying to understand what is gold? Everything is conditioned.

Śyāmasundara: If we listed for some conditions that it must weigh a certain amount, it must have a certain color, it must have a certain texture, like that…

Prabhupāda: That is already there. Those who are chemists, they know what is the characteristics of gold. That is already there, recorded. So what does he want?

Śyāmasundara: This is part of his system for analyzing what is true or untrue.

Prabhupāda: That analysis is there. It may not be with me, it may not be with you, but it is already there. But what he will do with that analysis? What is his aim?

Śyāmasundara: Well, we can satisfy his conditions and then determine if it is true that this ring is gold.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many conditions. After, at the end, the conditions come to atom, atomic theory. But the atom is also conditioned, aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu cayāntara-stham. Kṛṣṇa is within the atom also; therefore the atom is not absolute or independent. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate fact.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

That we have know, that He is the cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara: So, for instance, the ring may be gold under one set of conditions…

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is gold under certain conditions, but the original cause is Kṛṣṇa. Everything. Under certain conditions something is wood, something is gold, something is metal, something is this, something is… These are different conditions. I am also conditioned. Under certain conditions I am talking that "I am human being." Otherwise animal, he is under certain conditions, he is an animal. So everyone is under conditions. Who is not under conditions? Everything is under conditions. Therefore this world is called conditioned world or relative world. Nothing is absolute.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a proposition is a…

Prabhupāda: It is gold, gold means it is a metal, a combination of metals. There are eight types of metals, and gold is combination of tin, copper and mercury.

Śyāmasundara: There is a basic element-gold.

Prabhupāda: Not basic. It is a combination of different elements, different metals.

Śyāmasundara: According to the chemists, there are 108 basic elements, and gold is one of them.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but I say that what you call gold is a combination of other metals. So gold, this is not absolute. This is relative. Because other metals have combined together, it is now known as gold. Similarly, the whole world is combination of different material elements, and the gross elements are this earth, water, fire, air, ether.

Śyāmasundara: What about…, they say that there is a basic atom called a hydrogen atom.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you will call it, it is also matter. The minute particles are matter. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: That's right. Inside these molecules there are atoms, and inside the atoms there are more particles, and it goes on, smaller and smaller.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all matter.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a proposition is a picture of reality, a picture is a model of reality, a picture is a fact, the world is a totality of facts, the totality of true thoughts is a picture of the world.

Prabhupāda: Totality of not facts, that is a combination of gross matter, combination of gross and subtle matter. But this gross and subtle matter are projection of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore totalities, they can be said Kṛṣṇa's external energy. And because Kṛṣṇa's energy, the energy and energetic, sometimes separated, sometimes mixed up; when separated, it manifests as something creation; when it is mixed up, the energy is no longer-it is merged into the energetic. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate cause.

Śyāmasundara: So the picture of reality is always changing? There are no set combinations?

Prabhupāda: Reality is not changing. The combination of different energies is changing. Reality is not changing.

Śyāmasundara: So true thoughts are not changing.

Prabhupāda: Reality is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa has got unlimited number of energies, so the combination of different energy is making some manifestation and they are changing.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the totality of true thoughts is the picture of the world. So that picture does not change. The true thoughts do not change. So the world is not actually…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Conservation of energy. Everything rests ultimately in energy, and the energy ultimately rests in Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we say that everything ultimately rests in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate cause, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the cause of everything."

Śyāmasundara: He says that language is a picture of reality-language, words, a picture of reality. Just like we are speaking now. We are making pictures of reality as we speak with our language, with our words. Do these words have more content in themselves, or are they simply pictures of reality?

Prabhupāda: Language is a sort of expression to understand reality. Language is not reality.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that propositions or statements of ideas provide merely the form, telling us not what things are but how they are, but only how they are.

Prabhupāda: As well as what they are. If they are how they are, then what they are can also be explained.

Śyāmasundara: Just like if I describe this picture, I cannot really say what it is, but only how it is, what it is like, how it is.

Prabhupāda: What is the difference, "how it is" and "what it is"? What is the difference? It is simply jugglery of words. If I can say how it is, I can say what it is.

Śyāmasundara: He says what it is can only be experienced by the other senses-by seeing it, touching it.

Prabhupāda: In this sense, how it is, of course it can be explained like that. Ultimately, what it is means just like this gold, I said that how it is-a combination of other metals is gold, that is how it is. But what it is, that we have to research further. Just like how it is-a combination of copper, tin and mercury. Now, then what it is, we will have to make inquiry wherefrom this mercury comes, wherefrom this tin comes, wherefrom the copper comes. That is what it is. Therefore Vedic language it is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: "Everything is Brahman." That is what it is.

Śyāmasundara: (laughing) So we can explain how it is molded into different ways.

Prabhupāda: That is how it is, how it has become gold. But ultimately it is Brahman, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman.

Śyāmasundara: He says that therefore most philosophical propositions are not false, but they are devoid of sensory facts, of sense content; therefore they are nonsensical.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is also nonsensical.

Śyāmasundara: He comes to that. (laughter) When a genuine proposition…

Prabhupāda: Then why is he after so much nonsensical things? Just to show he's…

Śyāmasundara: In order to find out what is a genuine proposition, he says that a genuine proposition presents the sense content and shows how things stand if it is true.

Prabhupāda: This is sense content, that sarvaṁ khalv, "Everything is Brahman." Everything is Brahman.

Śyāmasundara: But how does that give us sense content? What does that mean to my sense observations?

Devānanda: Isn't there a way… There is a way of perceiving that everything is Brahman. It can be perceived. We cannot perceive it now, but it can be perceived.

Prabhupāda: But the true knowledge, that ultimately Brahman is the ultimate cause. So Brahman has got different energies, and the multiple energies, they are combined together, and they manifest in different phases. Therefore Brahman is the cause of all causes. That is the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman means wherefrom everything is emanating.

Śyāmasundara: But this statement, "Everything is Brahman," that seems to me devoid of sensory fact, of sense content. Therefore he says it is nonsensical, because I cannot experience it as a sensory experience. How does that have sense content, that statement?

Prabhupāda: That means whatever does not come through his senses, that is not true.

Śyāmasundara: No. But whatever cannot be experienced is not true.

Prabhupāda: Experience means by sense experience. That means whatever is not under direct perception, sense experience, that is false.

Śyāmasundara: Either direct or indirect. But how can I experience that statement that "Everything is Brahman"?

Prabhupāda: Indirect is there. Just like we accept that everything has got some cause. So I am a person; the cause is my person father, and his father is also person. Similarly, the ultimate father, the original father, although I have not seen, I cannot sense perceive, still, I must conclude that He is a person.

Śyāmasundara: But I think behind your statement "Everything is Brahman," there are also statements which show the person how to experience Brahman.

Prabhupāda: This is Brahman. Brahman means the greatest. Greatest.

Śyāmasundara: But when you say "Everything is Brahman," you are also willing to include another set of propositions which show how to experience Brahman, how one can experience this fact, "Everything is Brahman."

Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Just like this International Society. Originally I started, so in any center, I am there. I am there. My photograph is there, I am there, accepting, Bhaktivedanta Swami. So personally I am not there, but I still am there by my expansion of energy. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original Brahman. Whatever we see, we perceive, experience, it's all Kṛṣṇa's expansion of energy. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: His attack, then, is not upon your statement "Everything is Brahman," because you are also proposing other propositions which show how to experience that everything is Brahman. His attack is upon philosophy that is empty or devoid of sense contact.

Prabhupāda: That is not empty. Suppose…

Devotee: He would say that if we can demonstrate that everything is Brahman, then it is not empty philosophy; then it is factual philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: His attack is with other philosophies that merely state that "This is that, this is that," but have no sense contact, are devoid of any sense meaning.

Devotee: Cannot be perceived. The truth cannot be perceived. If the truth cannot be perceived, then what good is the philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Truth can be perceived.

Devānanda: We can show; therefore our philosophy is good. He would agree, this philosophy is good because we cannot only state with authority what is the truth, we can reasonably establish it and we can demonstrate it also.

Prabhupāda: And perceive also.

Devānanda: Yes. We can demonstrate it.

Devotee: I have a question, that if he says that that philosophy which is good, which can be verified by observation or fact, and he comes to the conclusion that his philosophy is nonsense, I'd like to find out how he arrives at this kind of a conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: We're coming to that. He says that the propositions must describe the object completely by means of logical scaffolding, exhibiting logical form of reality, and whatever cannot be shown cannot be said, either. So he says that if we purport to show reality by our words…

Prabhupāda: What is the process of showing?

Śyāmasundara: By language, that our structure of language must be logically complete and that it must also be able to be seen or it cannot be said. Whatever cannot be shown cannot be said either.

Prabhupāda: Then logically complete… Suppose I have my father, I've seen my father, or I've seen my grandfather, or I've seen my great-grandfather, but because I cannot see the father of great-grandfather does not mean that there was no great-grandfather. Logically it is real, that the father of my great-grandfather was also a human being, he had two hands, two legs, and one head. That is logical, even though I have not seen. What is illogical? So it does not mean that things which we sometimes do not see, it is not logical. You cannot say like that. Because they are not seen, that is also logical.

Śyāmasundara: But that statement, "It can be seen that my father had a father had a father," that can be seen.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not seen; that is perceived. Perceived. (Sanskrit) It is called (Sanskrit). I can think of like that, yes. That is perception.

Śyāmasundara: So in order for us to say like that, something that cannot be shown cannot be said, he says. That if we say something…

Prabhupāda: Even if it cannot be shown, it is a fact. Not that because it cannot be shown, it is not a fact.

Śyāmasundara: But everything you say, you are also showing, you are also giving examples that we can perceive. Just like the body, you say the soul has left the body so the body does not move. So even though it cannot be seen, the soul is leaving the body.

Prabhupāda: "It cannot be seen" means you have no seeing power. You cannot see beyond this wall, but that does not mean that because it cannot be seen, that is not fact. That is another foolishness. You have no seeing power. You admit your imperfection. Why you are proposing like that, "Because it cannot be seen"?

Śyāmasundara: No. Because it cannot be shown, he says. But it can be shown.

Prabhupāda: It can be shown, but you have no eyes to see. That is my proposal. Your eyes are just as blind man. If he says that "Show me this," how he can see? He is blind man. So you are blind, you cannot see, but those who have eyes, they can see. Therefore they say, śāstra cakṣuṣa: don't believe those eyes. Śāstra cakṣuṣa. Make the śāstra your cakṣuṣa. That is Vedic position. Don't see with these naked eyes. What is the value of your eyes? Why are you so much proud of your eyes? You cannot see. You see under certain conditions. Therefore adhaksi(?) Adhaksi means those who believe only the eyes. And what is the value of the eyes? That you won't admit, that "I am blind." He won't say. He will say simply, "I cannot see." How you can see? You're blind. That he won't admit, that he's blind. He will simply say that "I cannot see; therefore I don't agree." But you are blind!

Śyāmasundara: It seems to me, in all of your propositions, you are also showing by practical example how this is true. You do not… It's not in the air, so we cannot perceive it in some way.

Prabhupāda: Nothing is in the air. Everything is fact. But if somebody says, although it is fact, "I cannot see, therefore it is not fact," that is not a good proposal.

Śyāmasundara: You give the evidence: the body is suddenly stopping moving. That is evidence. Even though we cannot see the soul, perhaps, but the evidence is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like on a cloudy day we cannot see the sun, but because there is light, so we say, "Yes, there is sun."

Śyāmasundara: Evidence.

Prabhupāda: Evidence. Similarly, the evidence is the moving capacity. Because the body is moving, there is soul. It doesn't matter if you can see or not see. It doesn't matter. When the motor is moving, there is gas. You may not see the gas. It is foolishness, that "I have not seen the gas. When it is put in?" [break] …dark, now it is light. How I am saying there is a darkness? It is (indistinct)

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is past, present, future for a man is not the past, present, future for Brahmā. Therefore this past, present, future is relative. And Kṛṣṇa is eternal. He has no past, present and future.

Devotee: I can understand how the past and future can be…

Prabhupāda: Past, present and future is relative to your body. Because you have got a limited body, therefore you have got past, present, future. Otherwise there is no past, present, future.

Devotee: But there is present for everyone.

Devotee (2): But that is also due to that body.

Devotee: But the past and the future are simply reminiscences and projections of (indistinct), but the present is existing for everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That past means, just like what you say. The past, present, future for an ant is different from your past, present, future.

Devotee: Why?

Prabhupāda: Because your body is different.

Devotee: The experience of the past, present and the future is different.

Prabhupāda: My point is there is no past, present, future. This experience is gathered according to your body.

Devotee: The experiences are different, but it doesn't alter the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) actually there is no past, present, future. That is my position.

Devotee: In the same way, the Buddhists say there is no soul. They say that the soul is completely dependent upon the body.

Prabhupāda: That we can reply. Why there is no soul? What is the distinction between that, that we already discussed. Don't bother about that.

Devotee: We would say there is no past, or is our perception of the past is false?

Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. There is no past, present, future. We perceive past, present, future due to this body. Just like Kṛṣṇa has no past, present, future.

Śyāmasundara: Wittgenstein noted that his own propositions are nonsensical; that is, they are devoid of any sense content. Therefore he held that…

Prabhupāda: Why he is bothering all nonsensical (indistinct)?

Śyāmasundara: He held that at first we must transcend that, in order to view the world correctly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are. (laughter)

Devotee: We are transcending.

Prabhupāda: Let him study philosophy from us.

Śyāmasundara: Even his verification principles cannot be verified by any other criterion; therefore it is self-refuting. And moreover, this limits the person, the individual, to his own sense experience. So how can the individual refer to himself as part of an existing but not yet experienced external world? In other words, if a person followed his philosophy strictly, he would not be able to put himself in the context of the world.

Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult to understand. Just like when there is summer, every one of us experiences heat. When there is winter, every one of use experiences cold. Therefore we are part and parcel of the Supreme. When there is spring season, all the trees immediately become full of foliage. When there is winter season, all the foliage, all the leaves, they fall down. So therefore there is one (indistinct) and we are part and parcel of that. When there is winter season you cannot say that "I am not feeling cold." You cannot say that. (aside:) So you are not going?

Devotee: (indistinct) twelve o'clock.

Śyāmasundara: Earlier in his philosophy he said that there is only one language of terms which portray reality. In other words, there is only one definite set of language terms that portray reality.

Prabhupāda: That is brahma, brahma-sattva. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is reality.

Śyāmasundara: Later he said that it's the way in which a word is used, not its meaning as a name for some object, which gives a language a statement for validity. In other words, the way we use words, not that words in themselves have absolute meaning, but the way we use them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you use one word, it has got some meaning. When you say "Brahman," it has got some meaning. "Brahman" means nothing is greater than Brahman. When you use the word Brahman it means nothing is greater that Brahman.

Śyāmasundara: But that statement, "Nothing is greater than," if you use it in another context, say with three or four objects, and you say that "nothing," meaning these three objects, "is greater than this object," that is another…

Prabhupāda: No. Any object you bring. When I say "God is great," anything you bring, nothing is greater than God. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says when we ask, for example, "What is the meaning of the word good…" He says we must inquire as to how we learn the meaning of the word good, what its functions have been, and strive to clarify its use, not as a picture of reality but as a tool for describing, recording, and asserting facts or ideas.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) limited science, when you are in the limited material world, good means which satisfies my senses good. That is good. And bad means which does not satisfy my senses. But so far my senses are concerned, this is temporary (indistinct); therefore in this material world, the conceptions of good and bad, they are all the same. Real goodness is God. God is good. That is good.

Devotee: Jaya! Haribol! Haribol!

Śyāmasundara: So he is saying…

Prabhupāda: Everything which is not God, that is bad. That is real goodness.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's how we use the word good, not what the word good means.

Prabhupāda: Good means, I already explained, which satisfies my senses. That is good. But God is good. He satisfies my senses and all others' senses. The relative good is it may satisfy my senses but it may not satisfy your senses. Therefore it is not good. Therefore what is good to me is not good to you. One man's food is another man's poison. Therefore this is relative good.

Śyāmasundara: Something which satisfies God's senses, that is real good.

Prabhupāda: That is absolute.

Śyāmasundara: So even words, if they are used to satisfy God…

Prabhupāda: That is good. Anything that satisfies God, that is good. Just like Arjuna was thinking fighting is bad, but when he understood that this fighting will be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, therefore it is good. So how the same bad thing becomes good? Because it satisfies Kṛṣṇa. So anything which satisfies Kṛṣṇa, that is good. Anything which does not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is bad.

Śyāmasundara: His final statement was that philosophy must describe the actual uses of language, never interfere with it, in order to achieve clarification. In other words…

Prabhupāda: This is clear clarification, that God is the Supreme, God is all-good; therefore what satisfies God, that is good. What will satisfy God, that is nice.

Śyāmasundara: So our philosophy describes the actual uses of words. There may be the word good and several…

Prabhupāda: Otherwise why you are chanting the words Hare Kṛṣṇa? There are also words.

Śyāmasundara: There may be ten philosophies, and each one will purport this same word good differently. But real philosophy is (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Absolute good means to satisfy God.

Śyāmasundara: The use of a word, not exactly what the word means, but the use of it, how it is used.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: There's one more quote. He says, "Don't ask for the meaning, ask for the use of a word." In other words, we don't say if good means this or that; we say how it is used.

Prabhupāda: If it is used for God, it is good.

Devotee: So he doesn't present a philosophy; he presents a method, a methodology, but not a philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: No. His philosophy describes the actual use of language. That is philosophy. So any philosophy that describes how language is used, that's proper philosophy.

Devotee: He doesn't describe how to use language; he describes principles for judging how to use language. But he has not himself described how to use language. So therefore he has not presented a philosophy. He has presented so many methods for presenting philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But those methods, they are also philosophy.

Devotee: The philosophy of presenting philosophy, but no philosophy itself.

Devotee (2): But philosophy is meant to understand the ultimate goal of life. What does he say the ultimate goal of life is? What is his ultimate goal of life?

Prabhupāda: That they do not know.

Devotee: He said you have to transcend what he presented to find out what that ultimate goal of life is. So anybody…

Śyāmasundara: His philosophy is an active attempt to clarify.

Devotee: Clarify what? What is he clarifying?

Prabhupāda: Clarify his nonsense. He is talking all nonsense. That will be clarified.

Devotee: Some of his principles for ascertaining truth are all right; some of them are not so good. But he has himself not tried to present the truth at all. He has simply tried to present a way of ascertaining truth.

Devotee (2): (indistinct)

Devotee: But how can he ascertain truth if he doesn't know what the truth is?

Devotee (3): He didn't say that he did. He said it was nonsense, that you had to go beyond what he said to find out the truth.

Devotee: That's not much of a philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Actually one of his students, John (indistinct) at Oxford, er, Cambridge, he is still living now, he has written an important book for modern theology which applies his philosophy to religion, where he says that we can see God everywhere, so even though we can't prove God in a way that the scientists require, still, this is enough, that we can see His evidence wherever we are. So this is proof that we should have belief in God, have faith in God. His students have been very godly, (indistinct) in a godly way.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Viśāla: Śrīla Prabhupāda said sādhu means he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So unless you are a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, how can you be saintly or godly? Unless you are a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you are not godly.

Devotee: So what he is trying to ascertain is that God is the absolute truth.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) as I recall he uses the example of the garden, that he sees in the garden the wisdom of logical arrangement, nice taste, so many things, so he concludes that because man can fill this garden or manipulate this garden, therefore there must be God.

Devotee: We also say like that, that there are so many nice arrangements that are universal, we see so many nice arrangements. There must be a…

Devotee (2): (indistinct)

Devotee (3): But the child will pick up a flower and look it and say, "It is so beautiful. Who has made it?" and then another child will answer, "God." (end)

MARITAIN.SYA

Jacques Maritain

Śyāmasundara: Today's philosopher is called Jacques Maritain, and he's a French…, contemporary French philosopher, very influential, and he's a religionist. He believes in a personal God.

Prabhupāda: Still living?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. His main philosophy is that existence and essence are both there; that existence is not possible without essence. He defines existence to be…, er, essence to be potential and existence to be the actual. So that a thing, and everything that we can perceive, has both existence and, in other words, potentiality and actuality. For instance, this cup has the potentiality to be something else, to be a piece of metal, but in its actual form it is like this. But it has potentiality to become something else. So he says these two things-the essence and the existence-exist simultaneously.

Prabhupāda: So we agree to this point. Just like soul, at the present moment you have got a certain type of body, human body, but the soul has potentiality to have a spiritual body or a dog's body. Both potentialities are there. So the essential is the soul, and the reality… It is not reality; temporary form in the material body. But the potentiality as the soul has its own spiritual body. When it is uncontaminated by the material contamination, he remains only reality without any so-called actuality or temporary form.

Śyāmasundara: He says that sense activity occurs on an immediate level of experience, without any conscious awareness of itself, but that true knowledge of reality comes through intuition, and that this reality is called being.

Prabhupāda: Intuity, also past experience. What you call intuition is past experience. Just like when a child is born, by intuition it seeks mother's breast. Because the child does not know where is food, but by intuition, as soon as the mother's breast is given, pushed in its mouth, he is satisfied immediately. So by…, this is called by intuition. But actually it is its past experience. The same child, as the soul, may have taken something else in a different body. So the fact is that the soul is wandering in different types of bodies, and when he comes to a particular type of body, he remembers everything from his past experience. Just like fifty years ago, when I was a businessman, so at that Gauḍīya Math, as soon as I go there, I remember all those things; I am again fifty years back. That is actual… So this, suppose if I say I am going, I do not require to be directed that "Here is this thing, here is that thing." Immediately I enter that town I will understand that if I have to go to the toilet, "Here it is." If I go to the kitchen, "Here it is." So you may call it intuition, but actually it is experience, past experience. There is no, nothing such thing as intuition. That is a vague expression. Actually it is past experience.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God, He is pure actuality. There is no potentiality.

Prabhupāda: Absolute.

Śyāmasundara: He is Absolute. He is pure existence and essence together, but that the…, everything else that exists besides God has these two characteristics of potentiality and actuality.

Prabhupāda: That potentiality, actuality, it is material relativity. In the spiritual world there is same-potentiality, reality-they're one. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, the rascal scholars, they think that Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa's soul is different, as it is, what is called, expressed by Dr. Radhakrishnan. But that is not the fact. There is no such difference. Kṛṣṇa also says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11]. Because He comes in a human form, rascals think of Him as ordinary human being. But He is not that. He is absolute. He has nothing to do with the body and soul as we have got. He is body and soul together-potentiality and the actuality. Similarly, anyone who gets a spiritual body, he also gets the same position. There will be no difference between actuality and potentiality.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God, or the divine intellect, perceives His own essence.

Prabhupāda: No. [break]

Śyāmasundara: He says that God perceives His own essence, and thus He…, everything else and all of the creation came into existence as a part of His essence of God. That everything is a part of God's essence and keeps coming into existence in different forms, different stages of actuality.

Prabhupāda: So that… They say everything is expansion of God's energy. The example is given in the Vedic śāstras, just like the fire is there in one place but the heat and light of the fire expand. Similarly, God, or Kṛṣṇa, is there in Goloka Vṛndāvana, but His energy, external energy and internal energy and marginal energy, they are expanding in this place. So what is his opinion of it?

Śyāmasundara: Well, these two types of energy he would call…, material energy he would call potential energy, and the spiritual energy, he would say is actual energy.

Prabhupāda: Well, actual, the energy is one, but it is working differently. Just like electricity is one, but it is working differently as cooler and heater, although cooling and heating are two opposites. Cooling is just opposite of heating, and heating is just opposite of cooling, but electric energy is working in both the places.

Śyāmasundara: Electric energy is also measured in terms of its potency, its potential.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So for God there is no such distinction; therefore it is called kaivalya. For Him the material energy or the spiritual energy is the same. Therefore the Māyāvādīs, they cannot understand God. They think that Kṛṣṇa, when He comes, He accepts a material body. But even He accepts a material body, for Him there is no such distinction-spiritual body and material body. He is…, He being omnipotent, He can act even in His material body as spiritual. Just like when Kṛṣṇa was present, accepting that He has a material body, but at the age of seven years old He lifted the big hill. That is not possible by the material body. Therefore, as omnipotent He can turn the material energy into spiritual energy and the spiritual energy into material energy. That is omnipotency. But those who are with poor fund of knowledge, they think that Kṛṣṇa has got this material body. Actually He has no such distinction, either material or… Just like electrical engineer, he knows how to tackle electric energy. He can convert the heater into refrigerator, and he can convert the refrigerator into heater, because he knows how to do it.

Śyāmasundara: There's another school of modern philosopher who has the same idea of existence and essence, but they say that there is only existence, that there is no essence, therefore there's no meaning to life.

Prabhupāda: No. According to our…, essence is reality; existence is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he opposes these philosophers by saying that there cannot be existence without essence.

Prabhupāda: That is our view also. Essence… Just like Śaṅkarācārya says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. The existence is mithyā. He says mithyā. But we, Vaiṣṇava philosopher, we say not mithyā, not false, but temporary. But temporary. So mithyā we cannot say, because anything coming from God, it cannot be false, but it is temporary. He can change it as He likes; therefore it is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that existence is the coming into being of the essence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: The inbetween stage he calls becoming.

Prabhupāda: That is Brahman. Brahman is essence, and from Brahman is everything is coming out-janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So Brahman means everything is emanating. Now this janma is in reference to this material world. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as creation. Creation and annihilation, that is the nature of this material world. So when we speak of janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], it means the creation of the material world, but the original source of creation, that is eternal. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]-the source from which everything is taking birth. So everything is taking birth means before the birth of everything there was the source wherefrom the birth is taking place. Just like child is born, and before the birth of the child the mother was existing. Similarly, before the creation of this material world, the source, Brahman, was there. Therefore Brahman is not matter. Brahman is not matter.

Śyāmasundara: Brahman is the essence.

Prabhupāda: Essence. The essence was there before the creation of the manifestation. That Brahman, Kṛṣṇa says, as Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ; [SB 1.1.1] similarly Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the source of everything." And Brahma-saṁhitā says, Kṛṣṇa…, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], "the cause of all causes." So before creation, Kṛṣṇa was existing, or God was existing. Creation means matter. So the source of creation, God, or Kṛṣṇa, is not matter. It is spirit.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the essence of an entity is its intelligible nature, or that one can have ideas. This is proof that we are more than existence, that we are also essence.

Prabhupāda: No. This existence is temporary. Just like this, I have got this coat. This is also existence, but I may change it next time, but I am the essence. I am permanent. I am changing.

Śyāmasundara: He says this is proven by the fact that the senses, they can perceive the existence of something by feeling it or touching it or seeing it, but they can't say anything about it until the intelligence comes into play, and then intelligence says what it is and gives it being.

Prabhupāda: Intelligence says what is its cause.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And he describes…

Prabhupāda: So that cause is find some cause and again you find out the cause, again you find the cause, and then you find out cause and effect, you study effect and find out the cause, then when you come to the ultimate cause, which has no other cause, then that is Kṛṣṇa, that is God. [break]

Śyāmasundara: He says that the senses can say "This exists," but if they said something… The senses can say "This exists," but the indirect is what says "This being is." In other words, it describes what exists-not only that something exists but what exists. So this intellect, or this being able to describe the essence of something, proves that we are made of this essence, that this is our real nature, that we are… It is not simply blindly existing but that there is some essence. He says that to exist means to act. He says actuality means continuous activities; there's no…, no rest.

Prabhupāda: That is karma-yoga. Because work, activities, why they are so active? Because they want to enjoy. That's all. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Everything that exists wants to enjoy?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here in this material world, variety, working so hard for sense gratification. The same activity, we consider…, when it is converted in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual activity.

Śyāmasundara: So the essence of any object is its power to exist and be known. To be known.

Prabhupāda: Mm. That is the basic principle of Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma, what is the basic platform, how is it. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. That is intelligence. That is intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: Intelligence is the basic…

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. By intelligence one can inquire what is the cause of this. Jijñāsu. It is called jijñāsu. Those who are not jijñāsus, śreya uttamam, they are third class. Just like animals, they cannot ask, "What is its cause?" That is animal life. And human life means when the inquiry is "What is its cause?" That is the distinction between animal life and human life. Human life must be inquisitive, "What is its cause? What is the essence?" Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Lord Caitanya that "Why I suffer some threefold miseries? I do not wish to suffer, but why?" This "why" question, unless this "why" question is there, then he's not to be considered as human being. Śrī Rāmānujācārya, when writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3], he says manuṣya means "inquisitive." Not with two legs and hands. That is not a manuṣya; that is an animal. (indistinct) vikara (indistinct). One who inquires from authoritative Vedas, śāstras, he's a human being. And those who are not inquisitive, they are not considered to be human being. "What is the essence?" that is human being. Otherwise animal life. And tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. And one who is actually inquisitive, he, he requires to have the guidance of spiritual master. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. Guru is required for him who is inquisitive of the higher essence, not for… To accept a guru is not a fashion. Those, without being inquisitive of the highest essence, accept from guru, they think it is a fashion to keep a guru. Just like one keeps one dog by fashion: "My friend is keeping a dog, I shall keep a dog. My friend is keeping a car, I shall keep a car." Such kind of acceptance of guru is useless. It has no meaning. Actually, guru means… One…, the disciple must be very much inquisitive, interest into this is to understand the original essence. And he should approach a suitable bona fide person who can answer about the original essence. This is the system of guru and disciple. It is not a fashion, bogus fashion. A śiṣya must be intently inquisitive to understand the original essence, and guru must be a well-conversant person who can answer the disciple's relevant questions. This is guru and śiṣya.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because God is pure actuality, the opposite of godly nature is pure potential without much existence.

Prabhupāda: No. The existence is there. The essential, essence also is there, but it is a question of awareness and not awareness. One who knows, he is brāhmaṇa; one who does not know, he is kṛpaṇa. Just like human beings, one who knows what is Brahman, he is called brāhmaṇa, and one who does not know what is Brahman, he is called a kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa means miser. He got the opportunity to understand Brahman but he did not care for it, just like a man has got money but he could not utilize it. Similarly, the opposite word of brāhmaṇa is kṛpaṇa. Those who are trying to understand the essence, they are brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa. Veda pathād bhaved vipra brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ: by studying Vedas, trying to understand the essence. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Really, to understand Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. So those who are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa, they are human being. Others, they are not human being.

Śyāmasundara: He sees the same kind of hierarchy, that on the one hand the highest types of beings are those who are most actualized, are those who are more perfect.

Prabhupāda: Mmm.

Śyāmasundara: They have realized their essence.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Whereas the lower types of entities who are purely potential but have very small existences, like they're animal, plant life, he sees that hierarchy, and he says that the highest summit of man is…, the summit of wisdom, when he becomes capable of loving God lovingly.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Śyāmasundara: Then he becomes purely…

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, premā pumartho pumān: the highest perfection of life is to attain love of Godhead. And Bhāgavata also says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religious system, (indistinct) develops his dormant love of God. That is religion. That is first-class, transcendental religion. And Bhāgavata, in other place it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitava atra: all cheating religious system is rejected here. Because Bhāgavata does not accept a religious system as genuine unless the followers develop love of Godhead. This is the test. And dharma means, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all types of religious system." That means they are not religious, they are not religious. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa will ask that you give it up?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He, in the beginning, says that "I come to establish religion," and He says that "Give up, kick out all these so-called religions." So they are not religion, and that is confirmed in the Bhāgavata, kaitava, dharma kaitava. Kaitava means cheating. Anything, any religious system which does not give knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, that is cheating religion. That is cheating religion. Dharma kaitava. Kaitava means cheating. And Śrīdhara Swami, he comments that atra mokṣa vāñchā (indistinct), those who are after mukti, liberation, they are also rejected herein. The jñānīs, they are after mukti. So Śrīdhara Swami says they are also within the category of these cheating religious systems, because they are being cheated. They are cheating themselves, that "I'll become God." So that is another type of cheating. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "Give up all these cheating type of religious systems. Just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Surrender unto Him. This is religion. And for teaching this religion, Kṛṣṇa appeared: dharma saṁsthāpanārthāya. What is that religion? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Anything which does not teach surrender unto the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa, that is cheating religion. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this love of God is significant to one's experience of being a living self.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am individual living self. I want to exist by loving somebody. That is, we can practically see: I want to love somebody.

Śyāmasundara: That gives significance to my existence…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …if I love somebody.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, other individual also wants to love somebody. The loving propensity is there. So our love is now distributed in so many ways, sukha mitra… (?): to our children, to our friends, to our country, to our families, to our wives, and if somebody has nothing like that, he reposes his love to dog, to cat. So the love must be there, and it must be reposed. But you should not know; therefore we have been frustrated. But when it is done to Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct) success. So dormant love is there. (aside regarding guests-indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He says that this state is called realization or actualization.

Prabhupāda: This is realization. Everyone knows that "I want to love somebody." So that is going on. Anyone, even animals. Even animals, they also love their cubs, their children. Dogs, cats, even tiger, they love. They, every living entity wants to love, but because the love is reposed in a wrong place, he is being frustrated.

Śyāmasundara: He says when we come to the platform of loving God…

Prabhupāda: That is perfection.

Śyāmasundara: …then our potential nature is no more existing; everything is purely actual.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: We have actualized our potential.

Prabhupāda: Absolute platform. Yes. That is absolute platform.

Śyāmasundara: Up to that stage, everything has got some potential…

Prabhupāda: Difference, so potential is actual.

Śyāmasundara: But they are acting on a smaller level. And when they reach that stage of loving God, then there's no more potential, purely actual.

Prabhupāda: That's right. That is higher conception. Saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām. That is higher conception.

Śyāmasundara: He says… Now here is maybe one degree of difference. He says that ethical life, or knowledge of the Absolute, comes to our conscience or our reason, and the ethical life is to act in accordance or obedience to our conscience or our reason.

Prabhupāda: Conscience…, not ordinary conscience-Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Conscience is pure, but when it is diluted, contaminated, so somebody has got his conscience, consciousness, a different type. Just like Pakistani, Hindustani, they have got Hindustani consciousness or Pakistani consciousness, Muhammadan consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: Conscience. Not conscious but conscience.

Prabhupāda: Conscience, everyone is conscience. Every living entity has got conscience.

Revatīnandana: Conscience means if I'm…, a sense of whether what I am doing is right or wrong. That is conscience. That's different from consciousness.

Prabhupāda: What is consciousness? Conscience means living force.

Revatīnandana: So not consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Revatīnandana: Conscience.

Prabhupāda: Conscious. Discrimination of good and bad.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That conscience is due to practice. Just like a butcher, he has no conscience that killing is bad. That he is practiced to do that, he does not say that… His conscience is not touched by killing. So this conscience is by practice created in a different atmosphere, so it does not act. Unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his conscience has no value. It is contaminated conscience. So as you are accustomed, so you have made a particular type of conscience. A thief, a thief, when he goes to steal, his conscience says, "This is all right. This is my livelihood. Why shall I stop it?" So what is value of this conscience?

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because he comes from a Christian background, where there is no…

Prabhupāda: Under some background he is speaking of conscience. But I say there are different consciences according to different backgrounds. So unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa background, his conscience has no value. That is our…

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that the speculative faculty is intelligence, that we can understand…

Prabhupāda: Then he is also speculating. Just like the butcher killing, he is also speculating, "What is the wrong there? Why people are protesting?" That is also speculating. But because his background is different, his conscience does not help him.

Śyāmasundara: So the method of… An authoritative basis for right and wrong, given by God Himself, then we can never know absolutely…

Prabhupāda: Unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his conscience has no value.

Śyāmasundara: But what about a person, say like this person, who had no access to God's laws, but he was simply speculating with his intelligence to try to find out what is right and what is wrong? Can he ever understand?

Prabhupāda: He'll understand when he comes in contact with a devotee; otherwise he is also in ignorance.

Devotee: By following the regulative principles, we develop a Kṛṣṇa conscious conscience.

Prabhupāda: No. Regulative principle is good-he may be, one may be moral, ethical-but that does not mean he is a Kṛṣṇa conscious. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, even without moral principles, he is higher than the person without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply sticking to the moral and ethical principles, he has no… Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who is not a devotee of Hari, Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. He may be good morally, good about following rules and regulations, but that does not mean that he is good. We have many instances in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Those who are strictly following their religious principles but has no idea of devotional service, he does not gain anything in this life. And a person who has engaged himself in the devotional service of the Lord, even if he falls down due to immaturity, he has gained so many things.

Śyāmasundara: It would seem like this idea of pure actuality would also…, could also be called devotional service, because everything that I'm acting is for Kṛṣṇa, for the pure actual.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything we are acting, we imagine that will be pure. (indistinct) confirm by this.

Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda, if I'm engaged in devotional service…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, that is devotional service. Not that you manufacture yourself.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: So that stage of acting under the guidance of the spiritual master, that would be pure actuality. There would be no…

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is beyond this; transcendental to the three guṇas. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is actuality. Brahma-tattva, that is actuality. So anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he is above, transcendental to the three modes of material nature. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26]. All these material qualities, samatīta, atīta, he surpasses, and brahma-bhūyāya kalpate, he is situated in actuality.

Śyāmasundara: He says that God knows reality as it exists and it has the potentiality to become. In other words, He knows everything.

Prabhupāda: He knows. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I know everything, past, present and future." You have nothing like that, past, present and future. The past, present and future is concealed due to our, these temporary material bodies.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the human being is nature's most perfect creation.

Prabhupāda: That's it. We also accept that. So after many, many births, 8,400,000 species of life, one gets this human form of life, and that also, civilized life, that also, in India, following the Vedic principles, that is the highest birth.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the human being has the material aspect of individuality plus the spiritual aspect of personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that personality understanding is the perfect understanding. The Absolute Truth, as it is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is realized in three phases: impersonal Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person. So to…, when one comes to Bhagavān understanding, that is the highest perfection. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] after many, many births of cultivating knowledge, one actually is wise, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this is…, because of this spiritual personality that he can know and love God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without person how there can be love? There is no question of love. You cannot love air or sky; you must find out a man or woman in the, under the sky. So therefore if you want to love God then you must accept God is a person; otherwise there is no question of love. Therefore for the Māyāvādī philosopher there is no question of love. They merge. They want sāyujya-mukti, to become one. They have no other conception, because they cannot conceive personal God. So there is no love. Therefore they manufacture an idea that in the material condition of life, you just imagine any form of God and love Him, and ultimately you become one. That is their philosophy. Ultimately you throw away this… The example is given that you want to rise on some top floor you take a ladder and go to the top and throw away the ladder: there is no need of this ladder, now you have come to the position. So their theory is that because you cannot love or worship something impersonal, because it is difficult, it is troublesome… It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kleśa adhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām: those who are attached to impersonal deities, their progress in spiritual life is very troublesome because they never fix up. So in order to give them some facility, they say that "You imagine some form of the Absolute Truth, and when you are perfect, then throw away that form. You become one." This is their philosophy. But if God is God, then how I can throw Him? That means while they are thinking of God, that is not God. And they say it is imagination. Then what is the value of imagination if it is not reality? So how by imagination, by kalpana, by taking something false, you can reach the reality? That is the defect of their philosophy. If you take it something wrong, how you can reach the reality? Your process is wrong, because you are accepting something wrong: imagination, imagination.

Śyāmasundara: So he says because men are a combination of spiritual personality and material individuality, he says because of the spiritual personality we can know God, and because of the material individuality evil arises, because of the material body.

Prabhupāda: No. If we have no perfect knowledge of the individuality… Individuality does not mean always evil and good. Just like in Vṛndāvana, the gopīs, they have got individuality, but that individuality is for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are all one. The objective is one. The example was given by my Guru Mahārāja that according to Vedic system, when one's husband is away from home, she does not dress herself very nicely, so she does not look very attractive. But the same woman, when the husband is at home, she dresses very nice. Now, this dressing or not dressing, they are two contradictory things, but the aim is the one; therefore that is one. The aim is the husband. For the husband's satisfaction she dresses and sometimes not dresses. So these two things, dressing and not dressing, apparently may be contradictory, but (if) the aim is one, they are the same. Similarly, there is variety in the spiritual world, but all the varieties, their central point is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the varieties are also one.

Śyāmasundara: He means more in the sense that because of this material body, this material position, that is where evil arises, by identifying with this material condition only. Their real nature is spiritual. Personality is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is contaminated. The varieties are there in the spiritual world. The same varieties when they are presented here with material contamination, it is called perverted. Just like the example in the Fifteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhva-mūlam adhaḥ-śākham [Bg. 15.1], reflection on the bank of a river, reservoir of water, the tree is reflected, varieties are there. The trees or trunks, branches, twigs, flowers, everything is reflected, but they are all false. Real variety is there, on the bank of the river. Because it is reflection, it appears that everything is there in the perverted way, and then they are all false.

Śyāmasundara: This potential and actual, he also says that potential is matter and actual is form, so that God, being purely actual, is also pure form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without God being form, how the forms are coming? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. In the original (indistinct) [break]

Śyāmasundara: Potentiality is matter, and actuality is form. Potentiality is undifferentiated matter, whereas actuality is form. So God, being actuality, is also pure form.

Prabhupāda: That also we say: sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Sat cit ānanda vigraha, form. Vigraha means form. So what else?

Śyāmasundara: I think that's all for today. (end)

HUSSERL.SYA

Edmund Husserl

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing one German philosopher named Edmund Husserl, and he started a school of philosophy known as phenomenology. The definition of phenomenology is "a descriptive analysis of inner experience or subjective processes, or the intuitive study of essences." So the idea behind this philosophy is that to find out the essences of things, to describe the data of our consciousness without any bias or prejudice or…, ignoring all theories and scientific facts, everything, but simply looking at a thing or a phenomenon and trying to understand what it is by analyzing our inward or intuitive knowledge of things.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness-real consciousness. Just like at the present moment I am thinking "Indian"; you are thinking "American." But if you introspect, you are American or I am Indian, so if you go on researching, you'll come to conclusion that "I am Kṛṣṇa's." That is real platform, when one understands that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa."

Śyāmasundara: Their method begins with the things themselves, they say "to the things themselves," or in other words, they begin from phenomenon.

Prabhupāda: Yes (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: To reject all theories, scientific experiments, all these things.

Prabhupāda: When you study the phenomenon-the body-this is phenomenon, that "I am this body or not?" Then you come to the conclusion that "I am not body. I am the soul. Then what for I am soul, I (indistinct)?" Then you will get from Krsna, "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa."

Śyāmasundara: They say that the phenomenon…

Prabhupāda: Just like one can analyze in this way: I am sitting on this comfortable, I mean, seat, cushion. Why I am sitting here? Because it is giving comfort to my body. Then I come to the study of body: Why I am maintaining this body? Because I am the soul, I am living in this body. Then ultimately I love my self, my soul. I love this seat because it gives shelter to my body. I love this body because it gives shelter to my soul. I love this soul because it is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimately I love Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? That is pure consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: They say that the phenomena, or the things, are the ways or the manifestations in which objects present themselves through their appearances.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: This object…

Prabhupāda: This phenomenon… Phenomenon means it comes and it goes. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: According to their way of thinking, the appearance of the phenomenon comes and goes, but the phenomenon itself is changeless.

Prabhupāda: That is not phenomenon. That is called noumena in philosophical language. Noumena. You can see the difference from noumena. Noumena. Phenomenon is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Well, he gets into noumena later, but he says… Just like this is a picture. It appears as this picture like this now, but in some time it may not appear like this, but still "picture," the idea "picture" or the essence "picture" exists independently of its appearance in this form.

Prabhupāda: That picture is also phenomenon ultimately, that idea of picture.

Śyāmasundara: That phenomenon. Yes. But if… It's a permanent type of changeless idea, picture. Even it may have many appearances which come and go, but the idea of "picture" is permanent, or changeless. Is it not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirming our theory of spiritual world as permanent. Just like here, the picture of a tree, that is phenomenon. But the picture, is that now original? Just like sometimes there are dolls, show dolls; that is phenomena. But the idea behind the dolls, that is permanent. Beautiful girl standing on the showcase, that is a doll. That is phenomenon. But a beautiful girl is not phenomenon; that is fact. This is a crude example. Similarly, this material world is phenomenon. That is explained by Śrīdhara Swami, that because the spiritual is true, fact, therefore the phenomenal expression of the spiritual world amidst matter appears to be true. This material world, phenomenal world, is not fact, but because it is representation of a fact, therefore it appears as fact. That is phenomenology.

Śyāmasundara: He outlines three techniques for finding the essences of things. The first step is called the phenomenon of phenomenal logical reduction, which begins by excluding consideration of everything transcendent, including all theories or scientific knowledge-everything-only presenting to our immediate senses the objects to be considered, without any preconceived idea of what is that object. So he calls this the suspension of judgment. Suspend all judgment about an object-just look at it, and the object itself will be intuitively understood. This is his idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you study the object scrutinizingly, then you will come to the conclusion, the source of that objective idea.

Śyāmasundara: He says that only this knowledge is absolutely certain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is called brahma-jijñāsā, inquiring about brahma. That is the prerogative of human life. In the human life one can make inquiries what is the ultimate source, cause. And in animal life it is not sought. So if such inquisitive is not there, then it is animal. Just like at the present moment the newspaper is full of fighting news. But these things are animal news. Such kind of fighting was there also in the animal life-dogs and dogs fighting. They are not very important. Real important thing is what I am. That is real important. Just like Sanātana Goswami inquired from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "So what I am? I do not want to suffer, but I have to suffer." These (indistinct), they are busy with the suffering, how they, this party or that party, but we are busy, "Why you are suffering?" That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, why you are suffering. Not that superficially you see people are suffering and giving some relief, and then again suffering, again relief. (Sanskrit) But they don't inquire, "Why suffering?" That is intelligent. That is human life. These rascals, they have established this United Nations for the last twenty-five years, and they never inquire that "We have tried so much, but still, why you could not stop war?" The establishment of U.N. was that there should be no war, because they had very bitter experience of the World…, Second World War. So they established this United Nations, but the (indistinct), just like the Americans, they thought that "We are very rich. We have got…, we are very powerful, so under the girth of this United Nations, we shall control over all the world." That was the policy. So this superficial phenomenon, as just might have seen, will not help us. We must go deep to the root, why people are suffering. That is intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: Well, their idea is to reduce everything to the level of pure consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That is pure consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: But by examining a phenomenon purely, without any other consideration, he says that each thing has its given content or its principle of principles, as an object of intuition. Or he calls it also a thing of authentic reality. Just like a leaf. If you look at a leaf, and you have no consideration of previous knowledge where do these things come, what is a leaf, anything, then the authentic reality of that leaf will present itself to my consciousness. It will be self-evident what is that leaf.

Prabhupāda: You don't take… That means that analytical study of the leaf.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But without any previous knowledge-as if I knew nothing about leaves before, but I begin to look at the leaf and it will be self-evident what that leaf is.

Prabhupāda: So you can talk any nonsense. (laughter) Then what is the use of going to school? There is no need of opening so many schools and colleges. You go on studying, you can know all knowledge and talk all kinds of nonsense. Is that perfect?

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that if a man has a clear intelligence that he will be able to understand the essence of that…

Prabhupāda: But why these schools are there? Every day we see, actually, from the most intelligent persons, scientist, he has to go to a school. Not that at home, by speculating and talking nonsense, they have become a scientist. They will never become.

Śyāmasundara: But if evidence from that leaf-that it is the color green, for instance…

Prabhupāda: Still, you have to learn how the color green comes in.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he calls that kind of knowledge-how the color green comes in-you must exclude that kind of consideration; only…

Prabhupāda: That I am saying. Then he doesn't require to ask anybody. He has to speculate himself and think any kind of way he likes. He wants (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No. He wants to understand the object in its self-evidence…

Prabhupāda: What is that self-evidence?

Syamasundara: …not that it's the color green, that…

Prabhupāda: Then what is his study? Color green everyone is seeing. So what is his specific purpose of studying?

Śyāmasundara: By studying the appearance of the leaf, the phenomenon, its nature or its essence will become self-evident-why the leaf is structured in a certain way, what is the…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) How you can know the structure of this leaf, why it is green some portion, why it is yellow, why there are stem, how it comes…? Do you mean to say that these things should automatically come if I speculate on this?

Śyāmasundara: That is his contention.

Prabhupāda: Then it is nonsense. It will not come. We have to go to a botanist to study.

Śyāmasundara: Well, what about before they had botanists? They didn't know anything about leaves before?

Prabhupāda: No. Botanistism may not be there, but the knowledge was there.

Śyāmasundara: But they… Five hundred years ago there were no…

Prabhupāda: Five hundred years… Since the beginning of the creation. Why do you say five hundred years? You cannot… Five millions of years ago…

Śyāmasundara: That's using an example that five hundred years ago, when we had no microscopes, we had no idea…

Prabhupāda: But the knowledge was there. That is Vedic knowledge. Knowledge was there. Just like five millions of years ago there was no scientist (indistinct), analytical laboratory. But the Vedic knowledge is that cow dung is pure. Now you analyze at the present moment scientifically you'll find yes, it is pure. So wherefrom this knowledge came? There is no need of scientist if this knowledge was there. That is Vedic knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Well, what about someone who has no recourse to Vedic knowledge or any authority…

Prabhupāda: Then he is a fool. However you may speculate, he is a fool.

Śyāmasundara: But for thousands of years man has been in contact with leaves, and they have not had Vedic scriptures to read…

Prabhupāda: Vedic scripture was there. They did not read. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: So does that mean they have no knowledge about leaves?

Prabhupāda: No. They may have partial knowledge, I mean to say, perfect knowledge. Just like the same example: cow dung is the stool of an animal, but it is stated in the Vedic language, Vedic literature, that it is pure. Now if you analyze it, as modern scientifically in the laboratory, you will find it is pure. Therefore all perfect knowledge was there in the Vedas. So whatever is stated there in the Vedas, that is perfect knowledge. There may be botanists or no botanists; the knowledge is there.

Śyāmasundara: So in order to understand anything, I have to consult Vedic scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the process: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. So to understand anything, that is the Vedic process: either material science or spiritual science, you must approach the guru. And that is being followed everywhere. You cannot become botanist by speculating at home. You have to go…

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't say you have to become a botanist.

Prabhupāda: So any, anything, whatever you may be, you cannot become perfect without hearing from another perfect. This is nonsense, that you go on speculating and the proof will come. This is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Well, I know. That is nonsense. That isn't what he's saying. He's saying that if you look at an object, the nature of that object will be self-evident; that it isn't that we have to know everything about the object, but the nature of it, the essence of it will be self-evident.

Prabhupāda: No. The nature is… Sometimes a child takes this, asks his father: "What is this, Father? What is this?" "The case of a spectacle." Therefore he gets the knowledge. That is nature.

Śyāmasundara: But if there was no-one…

Prabhupāda: But if the child will speculate, well then (indistinct) speculate?

Śyāmasundara: Well this isn't a philosophy for children exactly. It's supposedly for very intelligent men.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is following the principle, he's no better than a children. He's a child. This man is no better than a child, because he is speculating something important. He wants to study this leaf without any other sense. Then he is a child.

Śyāmasundara: But the nature of that leaf…

Prabhupāda: Whatever nature is already there. Nature of the leaf is already there, but you cannot understand it by speculating.

Śyāmasundara: We can't understand that it's green and that it grows?

Prabhupāda: Well, simply understanding green is not complete study of the leaf. The main questions are why it is green? Why the other leaf is yellow? That is real enquiry. Why this flower is red and that flower is white? And why the leaf is green? This is the real enquiry, "Why?"

Śyāmasundara: That isn't possible to understand…?

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You explain how is it possible.

Śyāmasundara: Well, you were just saying before that if someone analyzes everything scrutinizingly, they will find out that it is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But unless they are able to make that analysis, then what is the point of analyzing? Shouldn't we have the freedom to analyze something?

Prabhupāda: Suppose that when he says to analyze, analyze. When he will not take help? (indistinct) analyze.

Śyāmasundara: This is just the first step of his process. There are three steps. The first step is simply to reduce the phenomenon to their self-evident (indistinct)…

Prabhupāda: What is that self-evidence?

Śyāmasundara: …that it is green, that it grows on trees-those simple things that anyone can see, they're self-evident.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: That we don't have to consult any authority about or have any knowledge about previously. We can see those things.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: That's the first step. Then the second step is to make a universal reduction, to find out which things are common to all leaves, what things initially, this single appearance has the same thing in common with all appearances of leaves. Then… He calls these the ideas which underlie the pure phenomenon, like greenness and growth, things like that, basic principles, he calls these the changeless forms, changeless forms. Just like when this leaf is gone, it has disappeared, the color green will still exist somewhere; it is always existing. And the idea of growth will always exist somewhere. So that's the second step. He says that these changeless ideas, like greenness and growth, must be applied to phenomenon to give them stability or a basis, and thus rescue them from a state of constant change and unreality. So he is seeking to find out something permanent inside the temporary appearances of things. So he says that the essence of something is unlike the phenomenon by virtue of its universality. In other words, the experience that this leaf is green can be shared by all persons alike. Everyone will see that the leaf is green, not that one person will see it as yellow or another person will see it as grey. But that greenness that everyone sees, that is its self-evident nature, or essence of that leaf. So as an example, he gives the example of… We see a green object, for example, and green color is imminent in our consciousness, but when we postulate the transcendent color, it is not immediately sensed but merely described scientifically as existing in light waves measuring 550 millimicrons in length. In other words, the knowledge that that greenness is caused by certain light waves as measured by scientists is not important to him. The real idea is that that immediate greenness is shared by everyone, that is the nature of that leaf. Then the third…

Prabhupāda: Direct perception.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) Then the third step is an analysis of the correlation between the phenomenon of (sic:) cognitation and the object of cognitation. In other words, he says we must make a distinction between the appearance and that which appears-the leaf in this form and leafness as a permanent idea. So…

Prabhupāda: So why not study why sometimes it is leafless and why there is leaf? Why during winter season there is no leaf, and the springtime the leaves come out? Why? That is also phenomenon, changes. So therefore the next step will be that how the changes take place, and why the changes take place. That is real philosophy. Simply if you are satisfied that leaves are there, green leaves, that's all right; and there is no leaves, that's all right-that is not very intelligent. This is phenomenon. There is no leaf and there is leaf. So this is childish. Childish satisfies… Child does not enquire, "My dear father, why sometimes there is leaf and sometimes no leaf?" He is satisfied there is no leaf, that's all right; there is leaf, that's all right.

Śyāmasundara: No this…, I've just outlined the process, and as you say, if we stop at that point it may seem childish. But the idea is that it is a process and that you do inquire next…

Prabhupāda: But he says that we are not concerned with the process. We are simply concerned with the leaf as we see it.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And then he takes the next step. Now, why is there no leaf at a certain time? And then you go on inquiring in that way. But he…

Prabhupāda: You inquire from whom?

Śyāmasundara: You inquire from your intuition.

Prabhupāda: Just see. This is nonsense.

Devotee: According to that philosophy, if one looks inside a body, a person's body, the essence of the body is the soul. So by looking at the body can we detect the soul within?

Śyāmasundara: Materially, yes. Just like before… Our Western scientists have never read Vedic literature, but they understand why there is leaves on a tree at a certain time and why not. It's not a very difficult thing to understand.

Prabhupāda: This is speculation. If we do not follow the standard knowledge, (indistinct), then you have to speculate. Same thing, same example: if we do not take this information who is your father from your mother, then you have to speculate. This is the same example. But if there is process to understand who is my father simply by asking my mother, why shall I speculate?

Devotee: We went over this intuition yesterday, that intuition is experience. Actually it is experience. So that intuition about the soul, one must have a memorable experience of the soul. But we haven't had that. We have not had experience of the soul, so how can we have intuition?

Devotee (2): Nor do we have direct perception. Nor do we have direct perception of the soul. We cannot see the soul. Not with these eyes.

Śyāmasundara: No. This… All that I've described so far is only the first part of this process to understanding… He comes to the idea eventually that everything is spiritual, or noumenal, that what we see is merely a reflection. He comes to that point. So far, all I've described is the first part, so I don't think, if we make judgments on the philosophy so far, that it makes (indistinct). But actually he was very, very thoughtful and spent many years on this philosophy. So he's not stupid. He hasn't just concocted something. But his ideas are…

Prabhupāda: These arguments, he may not be stupid, these arguments, but arguments, one can…, a very learned man can be called stupid. (laughter) Because as soon as he… If you take by argument (indistinct), that's all.

Śyāmasundara: But if you judge his argument…, his whole philosophy, on only seeing part of it, then that doesn't seem fair.

Prabhupāda: Now we are coming to (indistinct). He says that we are concerned with only the phenomenon, what we see.

Śyāmasundara: Starting with that. Starting with that. Reducing everything to the…

Prabhupāda: Starting with that, that's all right. But how he'll come to the perfect knowledge? Not by speculation. That is our point.

Śyāmasundara: But…

Prabhupāda: And intuition is also wrong way. You cannot come to the perfect knowledge by speculation or intuition. You must approach a person who knows (indistinct). The same example repeated: you cannot understand who is your father by speculation and intuition. You must approach your mother and ask her, "Who is my father?" That will be perfect knowledge. That is the process. But when…, if you insist on that "Without asking my mother I will understand my father by speculation or intuition," that is nonsense. That is stupidity. That stupid he is.

Śyāmasundara: If you are still so primitive and juvenile in your understanding that you don't even know there's such thing as a father, first you have to find out that there is such thing as father, then you can ask who is father. These Western philosophers…

Prabhupāda: But if he does not know that there is need of father for my birth, then he's a (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No. I'm just giving you example. These Western philosophers, they have no…, they're starting from zero, from zero point. They have no knowledge whatsoever. So I begin with the idea…

Prabhupāda: But zero, that is our point. From zero knowledge you cannot go to the perfection by zero speculation. That is our point. You, if you are zero, you must go to someone who is one. And when zero is added to one, it becomes ten. Otherwise you go on adding zero, zero, zero-it is all zero.

Śyāmasundara: But if you do not there is such thing as father-let's say you are so infantile you do not know that "I have father"-first of all you must discover…

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is childish. Only the foolish child knows that he doesn't require any father, "My mother is everything." Just like these foolish scientists, they are thinking the nature is everything. Nature is mother. Just like a small child on the lap of the mother, he knows simply, "My mother is everything." But when he is grown up, he understands that "I have a father."

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, these so-called scientists who does not see God behind this nature, they are just like the same child. They are simply amazed with mother's activities, mother nature. That is called śakta. The worshipers of Goddess Kālī and Goddess Durgā are like that. They simply see the supremacy, the wonderful activities of the mother. But when he is grown up, he knows that "My mother has a controller, has a husband, who is my father."

Śyāmasundara: But these philosophers, especially Husserl, because there is so much confusion and chaos in the world of philosophical thought, they wanted to start from the beginning, from zero knowledge, from wiping everything away and beginning over again. So first of all they started with the phenomenon, because that's what you can see first, just like if you were a newborn child. Then they began…

Prabhupāda: Newborn child, first business is to inquire from the mother, "Mother, what is this?" "Mother, father, what is this?" That is nature.

Śyāmasundara: That's what he's doing.

Prabhupāda: But you begin with zero, but to make this zero something, you have to ask somebody. But he does not agree to that.

Śyāmasundara: No. Who can he ask? He doesn't know who to ask.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing. But you have to ask.

Śyāmasundara: So he says by intuition…

Devotee: I think the idea is that you can tell me who is the father, but I can't understand who the father is when I try to perceive it myself. You have given me a word or a thought, "This is your father," but actually the meaning of "father" has nothing beyond that word or thought unless I understand that I have father. Maybe I might call it by a different name than father.

Devotee (2): No, no.

Devotee: By you saying "This is father" or "This is leaf," it's just a semantic label you have put on that. For me to understand leaf, I must perceive it for myself, because leaf or father may mean something completely different for me and you.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is first of all you have to understand what is leaf or what is father. Then you can understand where the leaf came from, where the father came from. He wants to start from the point of having no knowledge about anything and building up gradually. So they begin with only the bare phenomenon, understanding what is the bare phenomenon. Because there's no authority for them to ask, these Western philosophers. They don't know where is the authority. So the only authority you can rely on is that which is self-evident, those things, those intuitive…

Prabhupāda: So if there is no authority, then why he is anxious to become authority? Why he's philosophizing? Let everyone learn from intuition, self-study. Why he's writing such books?

Śyāmasundara: Because he wants to understand the nature of things.

Devotee: He wants to help other people understand the nature of things.

Prabhupāda: He does not want that his books should be read by anyone.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He wants to understand the nature of things so that he can help others…

Prabhupāda: That means that he becomes authority. He becomes authority. If he wants to become authority, why he should deny other authority?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't deny another authority, he just doesn't know which authority is the real, correct authority.

Prabhupāda: Well, that we know. Therefore we say that Vedic knowledge is authority. That is the difference between the Western philosophers and the Indian philosophers. They accept the authority of the Vedas.

Devotee (2): Well, even when one chooses a spiritual master, it's not as if he accepts anybody that comes along. He must have some criteria for choosing that person, and that criterion must begin with an observation of phenomena because that's all he has to work with. It's not as if you take any bhogī who is walking down the street and say, "All right, you become my spiritual master."

Prabhupāda: No. There is standard. There is standard. That is also authority. The Vedas says, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. These are the qualities-śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. So accepting an authority as spiritual master, you have to check this, whether he is śrotriyam, whether he is brahma-niṣṭham. Śrotriyam means whether he has heard perfectly from his spiritual master, and by hearing, whether he is completely, firmly standing on brahma (indistinct). These are the two qualities. So anything, you have to learn the same thing from authority.

Śyāmasundara: Well, if Kṛṣṇa is seated in the intelligence…

Devotee: Also, isn't it possible that someone who has no exposure…

Prabhupāda: Even if you take Kṛṣṇa as authority, then you accept authority.

Śyāmasundara: I'm saying that because Kṛṣṇa is there in the…, is the prowess of all…, the intelligence of all intelligent men, is it not possible if someone has no exposure to the Vedic authorities, that he can still approach the Absolute Truth through clear intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he has to take lesson from Kṛṣṇa from within. That Brahmā took.

Śyāmasundara: That's his whole idea, to turn within to get the answer. By wiping away all of the prejudices.

Prabhupāda: So that is a perfect method. Just like Brahmā, there was nobody externally, but Brahmā got all the knowledge from inside, internally. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. Ādi-kavi, the Brahmā, he learned all the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He was alone. No. Hṛdi, (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa is within the heart, (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Just like one of Husserl's predecessors, Descartes, we discussed him before, he wanted the same platform, the same basis of understanding. So his only thought, his first thought, was cogito ergo sum: "I think, therefore I am." Eliminating all other thoughts, conclusions, there is at least that one thing: "I think, therefore I am." So he wants to start on the same basis, by wiping away all understanding and knowledge and beginning from the objects themselves, and reducing from those things, the essence of those things, to the truth.

Devotee: Isn't that jñāna-yoga?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: Isn't that the same thing as jñāna-yoga?

Prabhupāda: No. Jñāna-yoga does not think that. Jñāna-yoga means you have to receive jñāna, knowledge, from others.

Śyāmasundara: Just like he uses another example…

Prabhupāda: They are called adaksi (?). Adaksi, simply that sense perception. That's all. So they are not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: No. But not… Behind sense perception he also proceeds to the other levels. For instance, there's a…, he has to distinguish between the phenomenon of a sound, of a sound, and the constituting or intelligible essence of sound. From one particular sound, try to understand the nature of sound in general-what is sound. He says the intelligence comes into play then.

Prabhupāda: Sound is a symptom of the sky. When there is sound, there is sky.

Śyāmasundara: So that would be the next logical understanding, intuitive understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Behind hearing one sound, the proof of that understanding of sound in general is the sky, like that. In an elective process, this is a process for understanding these things.

Prabhupāda: On the whole, his process is mental speculation.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that in things there is a self-evident truth. In everything there is something self-evident that makes it true. Is that not possible?

Prabhupāda: That self-evidence is certain (indistinct). Just like this leaf, that you see the greenness of the leaf, but that is not all. If you actually want to study that leaf, simply the superficial vision of the leaf as green is not all.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: So a person who has adaksi, sense perception, they cannot have perfect knowledge. He has seen simply phenomenon. Behind this phenomenon they cannot see. Therefore their knowledge is imperfect.

Devotee: So then if we (indistinct), Lord Brahmā took instruction from within his heart, we can understand that he had a pure heart, he was able to take instruction from Kṛṣṇa from within, that his heart was pure.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: But when that contaminated consciousness, in…, that kind of knowledge is unacceptable to him, in that contamination.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it.

Śyāmasundara: It's just like if I understand the science that the greenness has a wavelength of 550 millimicrons per second…

Prabhupāda: So how does he know this measure?

Śyāmasundara: Well, if…, I'm saying "if." How does that understanding, scientific understanding, help my understanding of the greenness? It doesn't really enhance anything, just to know that it is a wavelength of light, greenness.

Prabhupāda: So if you are satisfied that the…, with the external feature of the leaf, if you don't want to go deep into the matter, then that is also knowledge-superficial knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: No. He wants to go deep into the matter.

Prabhupāda: How he can go deep into the matter? Because he doesn't want to consult anybody, and he cannot see beyond that superficial greenness. There are so many things which are not visible to our view. They are outside.

Śyāmasundara: Just like you have said that the sound was a symptom of the sky, that…

Prabhupāda: That…, that…, that symptom the sky we understand from the scientist, not that personally I have understood that sound is a symptom of the sky. It is the scientists, those who are dealing with physics, they say that the sky, the symptom of sky is sound.

Śyāmasundara: Well, it seems like I could…

Prabhupāda: That is (Sanskrit). That is not sense perception. That is a perception received from other authorities.

Śyāmasundara: So it seems like I could come to that same conclusion without consulting a scientist, that I could…

Prabhupāda: You cannot. That is our version. You cannot. Because simply you are puzzled with the sound, that's all. So wherefrom the sound comes, you have to approach the authorities.

Devotee: It seems like with his method he could get to the point of ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He'll recognize the spiritual substance behind everything eventually, just like the growing…, starting with the point of the leaf. He can gradually reach the point of understanding that it is spirit.

Prabhupāda: Then gradually.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He does reach that point. In the end part of his philosophy he comes to that point of understanding everything is spirit, but we're just at the beginning of outlining the process.

Prabhupāda: But how he can understand the existence spirit simply by speculation?

Śyāmasundara: Just like you were saying that the knowledge could come from within-how something, what is the substance behind something, of a leaf or a flower.

Prabhupāda: That is already described: then he must be very pure.

Devotee: (indistinct) for anyone though or just for himself?

Śyāmasundara: Any human living entity, human entity, can follow the same process if he's intelligent. Anyways, to proceed: it says that after this phenomenal, logical reduction, the residue or the essence of the thing which remains is characterized in a threefold structure. In other words, after you analyze one phenomenon, you could use certain essences of that phenomenon. Those essences are composed of three things.

Prabhupāda: Three dimensions.

Śyāmasundara: In a way three dimensions. The first one is the phenomenological ego. He says first of all that there are two egos-there is the phenomenological ego and the transcendental ego-what we would call the jīvātmā and the Supersoul. The phenomenological ego is the psychological or empirical ego, which is found in the passing stream of consciousness, or the false ego: the ego that identifies with the events and the stream of events of day-to-day life in this world-what I think I am. And the transcendental ego is the observer behind that stream of consciousness. But his idea is that, still down on this phenomenological level, the phenomenological ego deals with appearances as an activity-that is, cogitates upon appearances which we've passed through by perception. These objects pass through my perception. My phenomenological ego cogitates on those objects and gives what I call the world a structure.

Prabhupāda: That means he knows that he has got another vision.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But he's still dealing on the lowest level now, just to really understand things (?). He says that this ego as truer subjectivity-that is the understanding that "I am"-is the wonder of wonders, and he considers that it is a mystery that the world should contain a being which is aware of its own existence. The phenomenological ego becomes a fundamental fact of the universe in which all truth is found. In other words, beginning with this understanding that "I am existing," that "I am this," becoming aware of myself, this is the springboard or launching pad to know the truth. And an animal, he does not have that knowledge, subjective…

Prabhupāda: So how you developed that knowledge, better knowledge than…?

Śyāmasundara: That is the mystery.

Prabhupāda: …better knowledge than the animal?

Śyāmasundara: That is what he calls the mystery. That gradually that…

Prabhupāda: Then next mystery will be: there is somebody who is better than you.

Śyāmasundara: He comes to that conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Then it is better to consult that better than you. Why you shall go down to the animal status?

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that we are above the animal status because we can understand what we are.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now how you become more than the animal status?

Śyāmasundara: Well, that he doesn't deal with.

Prabhupāda: So the conclusion should be: as I am better than the animal status, therefore somebody there is who is better than me. Is it not good to suggest like that?

Śyāmasundara: He says that the transcendental ego is better than the…

Prabhupāda: So why not ask the transcendental ego? Why you speculate?

Śyāmasundara: This is what he calls the intuition, transcendental ego, his understanding of things.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is a transcendental ego, it is better to consult it.

Śyāmasundara: That's what he's trying to do, but through inward consultation, not that he has an outside source or he does not access to that transcendental ego from…

Prabhupāda: Therefore our Vedic śāstra says the transcendental ego appears externally as spiritual master.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. You have to recognize that where can he go? He has no spiritual master available.

Prabhupāda: No. If transcendental ego appears as the spiritual master, then what is the difficulty? If he accepts the transcendental ego, and he appears externally as spiritual master, then where is the difficulty to find out a spiritual master. So transcendental ego will confirm that "Here is spiritual master." He has no difficulty. Why does he say that whom to accept?

Śyāmasundara: Well, because…

Prabhupāda: If he has got acquaintance with the transcendental ego, he'll confirm, "Here is the spiritual master."

Śyāmasundara: I imagine Germany at that time, around the turn of the century, it had just no authority that he could consult.

Prabhupāda: No. For others, here he accepts one transcendental ego. We say that transcendental ego appears externally as spiritual master. Then where is the difficulty of finding out spiritual master?

Śyāmasundara: How to find such a person?

Prabhupāda: Because transcendental ego will help. If you accept transcendental ego, he will help: "Here is your spiritual master." There is no difficulty. There is no question of how I shall find it. If you have faith in transcendental ego, he will be able to tell you that "Here is." Where is the difficulty?

Devotee: No difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise his transcendental ego conception is also faith, which is not fact.

Devotee: If you think that bringing in mental along with transcendental all the time anyway, you just (indistinct) wipe the mind clean and have an intuitive understanding of anything… How can you do that? Everybody's got subjective values. How they can look at something and just understand it intuitively? That's not transcendental; that's mental.

Śyāmasundara: No. It's subjective. Yes. That's intuition-it's subjective.

Devotee: So how can you understand the transcendental with that kind of an instrument?

Devotee (2): That we already described in (indistinct).

Devotee: Well I think his process rests upon that point.

Śyāmasundara: You can understand it up to a certain point. Just like he would…, just like Madhudviṣa was saying, unless you understand the idea of fatherhood, how can anybody tell you, "This is your father"? You won't understand what he's talking about.

Devotee: But the point is, how can you ever understand the father?

Śyāmasundara: Fatherness becomes self-evident if you analyze it.

Devotee: How self-evident, if the mind is a limited instrument? How is it self-evident?

Śyāmasundara: Well, you can see that this child is coming out, that this child is being conceived by a father. You can see that. It's self-evident. That much is self-evident. But who is the father and how the father is there and the activity involved has to be gotten from authority.

Prabhupāda: No. The father may die(?), even your father may… Suppose the child does not know what his father may be. His father, he doesn't care to know. But when he grows up, he can see one man, always constant companion of the mother, he can enquire, "Who is this man?" And the mother will say, "He is your father." So he's not that (indistinct)?

Devotee: What does father mean though?

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. He doesn't know. But mother will explain that "He is your father."

Śyāmasundara: But if he doesn't understand…

Madhudviṣa: Someone else can be your father. If he says, "No, he's not your father, he's your father over there," he's never seen before, still, the idea of fatherhood is the man who's been with him all the time.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: So your mother…, the mother's saying "This is father" has no meaning, has no value. It contains no potential as father. The father is the person who is the close companion of the mother, and…

Prabhupāda: The thing is, when the mother says who is your father, then next question will be from the child, "What is father?"

Śyāmasundara: Yes. What is father…?

Prabhupāda: What is father, that enquiry. Then (s)he'll say that without father you cannot get birth. That is progress of knowledge. Why you should be satisfied only with the fact that the mother says, "This gentleman is your father"? So why should you…, if he does not inquire, "What is father?" Then he understands. This is inquiry, and knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Before we ever found out from you who is Kṛṣṇa, we had ideas of body, and nature, and God-all these things we knew about-fire, earth, water. We had made studies, so we could understand when He said that "The earth, the sky, the fire, they are My separated energies." When you told us that, we could understand it, but unless we knew the terms, that conceptions of those things, we could never have understood.

Prabhupāda: And you understood because you came in contact of a spiritual master. Therefore it is needed. It is essential. One must have a spiritual master to know things as they are. You cannot speculate; then you will remain in darkness.

Devotee: How can one see the spiritual master in darkness? If you are standing in a dark room…

Prabhupāda: The same thing. When you go on inquiring, then the question of spiritual master comes, when inquiry is there within yourself.

Devotee: But if we are in ignorance…

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the inquiry is there. That inquiry will make you wise by inquiring from the spiritual master or the authority. But the inquiry is there. Human life means…, developed consciousness means…, the animal cannot inquire. The human being can inquire. That inquiry will give him everything-the spiritual master, knowledge, wisdom-everything. But inquiry; simply this inquiry. That inquiry is there.

Śyāmasundara: This understanding of Husserl's philosophy stood as a lower stage now, because eventually we come to his description…

Prabhupāda: Just like still it is factual: The Ramakrishna Mission, when somebody goes to inquire something about God very seriously, they recommend that "For this inquiry you go to Gauḍīya Math." (laughter) Because they know what… [break]

Śyāmasundara: Husserl's next step is to…

Prabhupāda: Everyone is (indistinct) idea: "This is also good, this is also good, this is also good." We say only, only Kṛṣṇa good. We are the only community in the whole world. Because we know. That is the difference. One who does not know, he'll say, "This is also good, this is also good." That means he does not know what is good. Just like one who does not know which one is stone and which one is glass, imitation, glass. But one who knows, "Oh, this is real diamond, and this is only glass, polished glass…" So to distinguish these, what is genuine, which is false, you must have to go to the perfect person who knows it. The inquiry is there. That will lead you. When you ask somebody, "Which one is real?" and then you have to go, you go to such person, you go to the jeweler. Therefore your inquiry will take you to the right person if you are seriously inquisitive.

Devotee: Yes. You must be serious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are seeing (indistinct). If you are serious, then that will do, send you to the right person. But that inquiry is there. That is intuition. "I want to know. I want to know."

Acyutānanda: Seems like more than serious too. Also a person must be intelligent. I may be very serious and I may say which is gold…

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to go to an intelligent person. He is not intelligent. Anyway, seriousness does not mean… Seriousness is intelligence, but that is not perfect intelligence. Real intelligence means…, seriousness means that he takes knowledge from a man who is better intelligent than him. That is real intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: So here, Husserl reaches the point of understanding, of observing, of analyzing the transcendental observer, or transcendental ego. He comes to the understanding that there is a spiritual basis for everything. But still, we're talking about how he reaches that point. So he describes…

Prabhupāda: Transcendental observer, that is sometimes known as conscience-something dictating. I reject or may accept. Something dictating from within. That is transcendental.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are the phenomenological and the transcendental. The phenomenological ego, which uses conscience with…

Prabhupāda: Phenomenological ego means "I." "I am this individual soul." And transcendental ego is Paramātmā, Bhagavān.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's his distinction. The "I" feeling is, that would be the conscience which is made up of the data, day to day, that I observe, which is my world, the stream of consciousness, that "I think I am." So I may be allowed to…

Prabhupāda: No. At every moment I speculate my mind-accept something, reject something-then I am, "What is to be done?" Then something dictation is there. That is transcendental ego.

Devotee: How did we get into the conception of transcendental ego?

Śyāmasundara: Well, that we haven't come to yet. That's later. We're still… I mean, if you want to jump to that we can, but we're missing a lot that goes between.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That will come gradually. But we accept that transcendental ego.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But now he's discussing the phenomenological ego, or what we would call the false ego, the sense of "I." He says that this ego is an act, an activity-of doubting, understanding, affirming, denying, ruling, refusing, imagining, feeling…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called in Sanskrit language saṅkalpa and vikalpa: You accept something and reject something. That's all. You can make a different branches of these two words.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these are all intentional acts, that this ego, false ego, is responsible for all my intentional activities.

Devotee: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: Intentional activities-that means doubting something, understanding something, affirming something, denying something, feeling something-these are all activities that have an intent.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without intent, how we can act?

Śyāmasundara: So this is the second part of the structure of the phenomenological understanding of things, the…

Prabhupāda: But that intention are two kinds. Just like a man works for himself and then he works for others. When I am alone, I work for myself, but when I am married, I work for my wife, my children. So the intentions are two kinds. So which one is better intention? That is also to be studied.

Śyāmasundara: In this way, just like you have just given the example, that is how he wants to study phenomenon, like that.

Prabhupāda: Both are phenomenal. When I work for myself, that is also phenomenal, and work for my wife or children, that is also phenomenal. Now, whose intention is better? There are two kinds of intentions. People are working: somebody working for his personal satisfaction; somebody is working to maintain the family, wife, children. So which one is better? (end)

FREUD.SYA

Sigmund Freud

Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing the philosopher and psychologist Sigmund Freud. His thesis was that certain unconscious states must be repressed by a special mental mechanism which serves as a defense for the ego against painful or fragmental memories, emotions and desires.

Prabhupāda: That is our brahmācārya system. The psychology is that everyone has a sex appetite, everyone has a tendency for intoxication, and everyone had a tendency for meat-eating. Vyavāya āmiṣa madya sevā. These tendencies are already there. There is injunction in the śāstras that one can have sexual intercourse by marriage, legal sex. We are prohibiting illicit sex, but we are not prohibiting legal sex. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho' bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha, sex indulgence which is not against religious principles. That is (indistinct). So religious principle means regulated sex life. People have a tendency… Just like those who are not regulated by the Vedic injunctions are also having sex. So what is the meaning of this legal sex? Legal sex means it is restricted, that is all. Where there is no set injunction. Just like in Western countries, they are having sex without any restrictions. But according to the Vedic system, there are restrictions. Just like eating meat, that is also restricted. You cannot eat meat from the slaughterhouse, but the injunction is that you can take a goat and in the presence of goddess Kali you can offer it, and then you can eat it. In the śāstras this is called (indistinct). Amisa means meat which is not sacrificed. There are so many rules and regulations. Similarly, there is also injunction for drinking. By worshiping (sandamani) you can drink. So when the śāstras deal with meat-eating, drinking and sex, which is already there… Psychologically everyone has this tendency. Then why is it mentioned in the śāstras in this way? The whole thing is to restrict. Just like ordinarily in the state drinking liquor is also controlled by the excise department of the government. The government opens drinking shops, but the price is enhanced. I know because I was dealing in rectified spirits, so because we are preparing medicine we are getting opium, rectified spirits, gañja, very cheaply. One smuggler came to me and said that "You give me your license, you take one thousand rupees. I will manage." So I told him that when I would be arrested, because after I would be arrested, then the government would ask me that "We have given you the license as a respectable gentleman, and you are doing this," then what shall I reply? So this restriction is that liquor… Wine is made from rectified spirits, brandy, whiskey, everything; I know all the formulas, how to make them. The cost price of the rectified spirits is about Rs. 1/59 per gallon, and the government is selling at 60 rupees. For us it was five rupees, because we were manufacturers. So why (indistinct)? Restriction. Because unless the government takes this matter in their hands, people will distill… It is not very difficult. There are many illicit distillers also. That's why it is the duty of the excise department to arrest them. My point is that why is the government increasing the price? So that restricting, that people may not pay so much price, they may not drink (indistinct). When the government opens a liquor shop, it does not mean that all of you become drunkards. It is not an advertisement. Similarly, when śāstras give the permission that "You can have sex life by marriage," or "You can eat meat by offering the goat to goddess Kālī," or "You can drink by offering worship to Caṇḍī," it is restricted. Nobody can worship Caṇḍī daily. Nobody can worship Kālī daily. There is also fixed date… Kālī worship can be performed on (indistinct). The (indistinct) comes once a month. So that means restricted. One can eat meat once in a month. But the restriction is not there for eating rice, dahl, ghee, fruit or milk. There is no such restriction. But whenever there is a question of liquor, meat-eating and sex, immediately there is śāstra injunction that "You can do this under certain conditions." That means the whole idea is to restrict. That is, psychology is already there, but śāstras (indistinct), because they know if people become implicated with all these nonsense things, then his duration of materialistic way of life will increase, and we will have to accept material bodies birth after birth. So by restriction, gradually just like we are restricting all these things, gradually, the Western students, they are coming to the point of becoming a pure devotee. But these things are already there. Everyone know it. Mr. Freud does not require to study. It is already there. We know in the Vedic śāstras. But they should be restricted.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that certain memories or painful experiences or frustrations or desires are sometimes repressed by forgetfulness. We forget them. They lie deep in our unconscious, but we cannot even remember them because they cause pain by their memory. This mechanism is called defense mechanism, forgetfulness.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. There is the system that is yogic process, mechanical system to control the senses. Yoga (indistinct). Yoga means to control the senses. Yoga indriya saṁyama. So by this mechanical process of yogic exercises, one can (indistinct). One may artificially check, suppress, these tendencies, but we have many instances that even the greatest yogis like (indistinct) also failed. Our process is as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. You give him a better thing, he will forget it.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people forget experiences which cause them pain. For instance, a child may have had a very frightening experience which he does not like to recall, so that he forgets it. But the cause of his forgetting is that it causes an unhealthy state.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore we do not recommend such artificial means.

Śyāmasundara: But it's not artificial; naturally the…

Prabhupāda: Not natural. The child forgets… Our formula is bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syāt. This fearfulness is created when one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is a quality of the conditioned soul. Īśād apetasya viparyayo 'smṛtiḥ. So as soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, these things become almost nil. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. One who is God conscious doesn't fear anything. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Such a giant, his giant father, is threatening him. He is calm and (indistinct). He doesn't care for his father's (indistinct). His father is asking, "Prahlāda, how is it that you are so proud and fearless when I am trying to chastise you?" But he replied, "The person who has given me this power is protecting me." That was his answer. "You have power because it is gifted by Kṛṣṇa. So that same personality is giving me protection." He replied that.

Śyāmasundara: You say it's artificial to forget anything?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Forgetfulness is artificial?

Prabhupāda: Artificial.

Śyāmasundara: So why don't we remember everything?

Prabhupāda: Because you are not trained. Forgetful I do not understand. What do you mean?

Śyāmasundara: Forgetfulness means loss of memory. I can't remember what happened when I was four or five years old.

Prabhupāda: You might explain in your past life you had so many fearful incidents even, but you are not afraid of now. Why should you try to forget? There is no use of forgetting. Even if I remember I am not afraid, rather I thank Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa, you are so kind that You have saved me from so many misgivings. Now (indistinct) I am pure (indistinct)." So one should not be frightened by these past incidents. He rather (indistinct) afraid of all these things… (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: What he is talking about is the natural instinct of people to forget painful experiences.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) forget. Just like you were in the womb of your mother. It was a very painful situation. But you have forgotten. That is natural.

Śyāmasundara: So it's not artificial?

Prabhupāda: No. But when you were in the womb of your mother, that's a fact. Now when you think of it you can understand how horrible condition was that. Therefore śāstra says that even if you have forgotten, it does not mean that you have escaped the incidents. It is that you are waiting for another painful situation like that.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that many of our present unconscious wishes and conflicts have their origin in infantile or childhood experiences.

Prabhupāda: You are going to be again (indistinct). Why you forget Kṛṣṇa? After this life, you will be put in another womb of mother, so that the same thing will again happen. You are not finishing your business, so therefore it is the duty of guru and father and mother to save him from that situation again. Pitā na sa syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. So that is the opportunity of this human life. They should know that I had such-and-such bad experience. (indistinct), I will also experience the same thing again at the time of death, horrible situation. Again after, again enter, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. You have to again take birth in the womb. The same situation is repeating. You may forget. That is another thing. Just like you had some surgical operation in your body. That was very painful. So even if you have forgotten, that does not guarantee that there will be no more (indistinct) and no more surgical operation. That is not (indistinct). It will be put again. What is the use of forgetting? Even if you do forget, what is the benefit of thereof?

Śyāmasundara: He says there is no benefit of forgetting, but it is a natural tendency.

Prabhupāda: That is natural, and everyone knows that's not a very (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the cure for many of our present conflicts is to try to recall these painful experiences and analyze them and try to correct them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Just like for instance a person may have a hatred toward a member of the opposite sex. Why is this hatred? By tracing back in his childhood we may find that there was some horrible experience with his father or with his mother which caused him to hate that particular sex.

Prabhupāda: Just like if some woman does not like to give birth to a child…

Śyāmasundara: Because she was repressed when she was a child, or beaten by her father…

Prabhupāda: Not only that. A person does not like to bear children; therefore this contraceptive method is there. It is botheration, painful. It is called pain. (indistinct) (indistinct) means pain. So nature is prohibiting that, (indistinct), child delivery, so the man is also given so much trouble. The woman is also given so much trouble. So why is the trouble there? The (indistinct) for everything is don't be implicated in this sex life. If you simply tolerating a little itching sensation, then you will not have so much pain. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. These ordinary men who are attached to the materialistic way of life, their only happiness is this sexual intercourse. So śāstra says this happiness derived from sexual intercourse is very, very insignificant. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. This is not happiness. It is very (indistinct) third class or even lower than happiness. But because we have no idea of other happiness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the materialistic way of life, that is the happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. That is a very insignificant happiness. Then how is this happiness experienced? Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. You have got itching, and if you scratch like this, so you get some happiness, but aftereffects of that happiness is very abominable. So even if you have legal sex, the mother has to undergo the labor pains and the father has to take responsibility for raising the children nicely, give them education. Of course, one who is irresponsible like cats and dogs, that is another thing. But those who are actually gentlemen, for them it is not painful. Therefore they are avoiding children by contraceptive methods, because they know to raise children is a very difficult job. So śāstra's injunction is simply to try to tolerate this itching sensation and you save so much pain. This is real psychology. That itching sensation can be tolerated if one practices this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you will not be very much attracted by this sex life.

Śyāmasundara: I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I haven't made clear, perhaps, what is his philosophy.

Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: His philosophy is that people have neuroses or disorders of their total personality, that there is conflict, there is anxiety, there is frustration, and that all of these have origin.

Prabhupāda: But I am telling you that all these are due to sex.

Śyāmasundara: That's what Freud is also saying.

Prabhupāda: That we also say. Freud is encouraging, and our process is to stop. That is the difference. Freud says that when there is sex impulse, enjoy. (indistinct) care what it is.

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't say one way or the other. He is merely trying to analyze the sex impulse. He says that due to repressed childhood sex desires that these neuroses arise in a person's personality, and that by analyzing…

Prabhupāda: Our process is not repression. We don't repress. Therefore we give facility, that "You have got sex impulse. All right, you have it, but with your wife, legalized wife."

Śyāmasundara: He thinks more in terms from the very beginning of birth there is sex impulse.

Prabhupāda: That is admitted. We say that as soon as there is an embodied living being, he must have hunger, he must have sex impulse. (indistinct), we find in the animals these impulses are there, so why so much philosophy? They are already there. What is the use of philosophizing?

Śyāmasundara: He analyzes that besides the id, or these sex impulses, there is the ego, which is the moral self, which tries to adjust these impulses, these sexual impulses, and tries to…

Prabhupāda: That we have already discussed, that because just like that the sex impulse you are giving him some facility that "You have sex life with your married wife." This is real (indistinct). Not (indistinct) because I have sex impulse, I can (indistinct) anyone, never mind mother or sister, and have sexual intercourse. That is not very nice.

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't enjoin that. He is a scientist. He doesn't make any recommendations one way or the other. He is merely trying to analyze what is cause…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) our solution is this: Your materialistic life is painful. That's a fact. This materialistic life is painful. (indistinct). As soon as you have this material body, then you must suffer these three kinds of miserable condition of life. So our whole program is to stop. Everyone is looking after happiness. We say that unless you stop your materialistic way of life, repeated birth and death, there is no question of happiness. So the whole Vedic civilization is based on this, how one can get out of this disease. This is a disease, the repetition of birth and death. We are trying to cure this disease. Then all other symptoms will automatically vanquish. If you are a diseased fellow, you are getting sometimes a headache, sometimes leg ache, sometimes some pain in the stomach. But if your disease is cured, then that there are no more symptoms. That is our position.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these neuroses or disorders of the personality are due to repressed sex impulses in childhood, and that these cause traumatic and shock experiences. For instance, he says that at a certain age, around four or five, the son becomes jealous of the father, and he…

Prabhupāda: These are all right, but what is the remedy that he is suggesting? That the child should be allowed to have sex life?

Śyāmasundara: No. The tension that is created by repressing the sex desire…

Prabhupāda: There are so many (indistinct), we established some of them. There are so many problems. But our program is that threefold miseries, everyone who has accepted this body has to undergo the threefold miseries. You may describe in…

Śyāmasundara: [break] …psychoanalysis that by releasing these emotions, which have been built up due to tension, frustration, then the original shock can be released through admitting, confessing, remembering, like that.

Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that he will not get another shock? He is getting shock after shock. You (indistinct) one and another is present.

Śyāmasundara: He attributes all of our personality conflicts to this…

Prabhupāda: But the thing is that he is trying to cure one kind of shock, but there is no guarantee that he will not have shock. So our program is total cure: no more shock. That is our program. No more shock of any kind. His treatment is useless because he cannot guarantee another shock. Ours is (indistinct). If you are situated in real Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the (indistinct) type of misery which is (indistinct) will not (indistinct). No shock at all. We are giving that in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And he is trying to cure the resultant action of one kind of shock, but there is no guarantee that another shock will not come. You will get them, one after another, one after another. That is called (indistinct). You are trying to solve one problem; another problem is there, immediately. You solve that problem, another problem is there. So how can you change them? So long as you are under condition by the material nature, shock after shock will come. (indistinct). If one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, no more shock. That we are…

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the one basic instinct which is the most important to the human personality is the drive to procreate, or sexual energy.

Prabhupāda: That we have already discussed, that everyone has got. The animal has got this sexual proclivity.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the present state of the personality has grown about because of childhood or incomplete uses of this libido or sexual energy, and if it has been misused then there is a disorder in the personality. But by healing that original shock in childhood, then the future will all be healed. There will be not more fluctuation in the personality. Because by healing this original shock, there won't be any more fluctuations or neuroses.

Prabhupāda: That we have prescribed. We are trying to make boys brahmacārīs. So of course there is tendency, but by practicing the brahmācārya system, by diverting one's attention to Kṛṣṇa consciousness for Kṛṣṇa's service, there will be very little chance for this shock.

Śyāmasundara: He says that our sexual instincts are often thwarted by social constraints, so in a society which does not have a brahmācārya system, this would be…

Prabhupāda: Therefore this Vedic system is so scientific, varṇāśrama-dharma. When these things are automatically adjusted and checked, our life becomes very peaceful and we make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then these things will not come.

Śyāmasundara: This sexual energy, or the libido energy, he sees as not only sexual intercourse but is associated with a wide variety of pleasurable sensations relating to bodily activities, such as pleasure of the mouth, of the different organs. He says it's all sexual energy-eating, sucking.

Prabhupāda: That is already stated, that the only happiness in this material world, maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. Ādi means the basic principle is maithuna, sexual intercourse. And now there are some maithuna-ādi. Or you can take it that one is very happy-just like one gentleman proposed to (indistinct), "Give me a son." But that is also maithuna-ādi, by sexual intercourse. He is thinking that "I will have a son and I will get him married; he will also begin maithuna-ādi-and a grandson." So the whole system, this materialistic way of life, just like Bhāgavata is saying, yan maithuna gṛhamedhi sukham. This is happiness. (indistinct). Suta means son and āpta means friend. (indistinct) wife, mother, sister, they are enjoying this life. (indistinct), that's in the desert, one drop of water. The desert requires an ocean of water, but in the whole desert if there is one drop of water, you can say, "Here is water." But what is the value of water? What is the value of this water? You can say, "Here is water." Similarly, this sexual pleasure society, there is some pleasure, but what is the value of that pleasure? That is compared with one drop in the desert. You are seeking after unlimited pleasure. (indistinct) You are seeking that pleasure. What this will pacify you? Therefore nobody is satisfied. He is having sex in different ways, placing the woman in different ways. Now these young girls are almost naked. They are attractive. But this is not (indistinct) how society is degrading. Now the woman population is greater everywhere. So how to solve? As soon as there is woman population, they say, "Where is a man?" The (indistinct) desire (is) that every woman, every girl is trying to attract a man. But where is the man? And the man will take advantage, that "Milk is available on the market. What is the use of keeping a cow?" So they will decline to keep a cow, because milk is so cheap. So this is social desertion. And the more the man will become attached to woman, the woman population will increase. It is psychological. The whole world is increasing woman population. So therefore there is desire, especially in (indistinct).

Devotee: How is that?

Prabhupāda: The same principle-if milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow?

Devotee: How does that result in more women?

Prabhupāda: When you have more sex, then you have no power to beget a male child. When the man is less powerful, a girl is born. When the man is powerful, a boy is born. That is Vedic system. In our country, in (indistinct), there are fewer woman because there the men are very stout and strong. When there is discharge, if the man's discharge is larger, then there is a male child; if the woman's discharge is larger, then there is a female child. So when women will be very easily available, the men will be weak. So what will he beget? He will beget female child, because he has lost his power. Sometimes he becomes impotent. So many desertions. If you don't restrict sex life, there will be so many desertions. And that is happening-impotency, no marriage, woman population more. But they did not know how things are happening, how human psychology can be controlled. The perfect system is the Vedic system.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all pleasures, all bodily pleasures have a sexual origin.

Prabhupāda: That we have already discussed, maithunādi. Ādi means in the beginning, sex impulse. That is already there.

Śyāmasundara: Even he says satisfaction of the eating and sucking tendency.

Prabhupāda: That is maithunādi. The central point is sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45].

Śyāmasundara: He says that after a period of childhood indulgence in these sexual appetites, he begins to learn that by giving up satisfaction he can please and influence others so as to gain more adult favors, just like (indistinct) and (indistinct) you were talking about. So the pleasure principle becomes replaced by the reality principle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, (indistinct). If your consciousness is changed, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there is a verse by Yamunācārya, he says,

yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde

nava-nava-rasa-dhāmany udyataṁ rantum āsīt

tad-avadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne

bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ ca

(indistinct), he was emperor. So he said, "Since I am taking pleasure in the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa, nava-nava-rasa-dhāmany udyataṁ rantum āsīt, since I have engaged my life to enjoy the transcendental bliss by serving the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde. (indistinct), "I am getting newer and newer pleasures. And because," he said, "and at that time when I think of sex pleasure," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ ca. He was king. He had under his command (indistinct), but he said, "when I think of that sex pleasure, my mouth becomes deformed and I spit." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (indistinct)

Devotee: Freud would analyze that as…

Prabhupāda: Why nonsense Freud would analyze it? He is not Kṛṣṇa. What does he know? What rascal (indistinct). He is a big man among the rascals. A big rascal, that is all. He is a rascal, but a big rascal, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: What is the purpose of discussing him?

Prabhupāda: Just to prove that he is a big rascal. He may be a very big man amongst the other rascals, small rascals. Jīva Gosvāmī-this is Jīva Gosvāmī's language. I think I have mentioned somewhere in my Bhāgavata, (indistinct), big rascal, that is all. The analysis of (indistinct), how can we approach that with little knowledge? What improvement has (indistinct); after his philosophy in the Western countries? He has degraded more.

Devotee: He has put their attention more on sex.

Prabhupāda: That's all. What actual benefit is derived from him?

Śyāmasundara: He has made the impression that all of our troubles are due to frustrated sex life in our childhood, and that by analyzing these activities of childhood we can rectify our situation.

Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct).

Devotee: That is why young boys and girls have increased sex life.

Prabhupāda: They are becoming hippies. What benefit is there? He has degraded the whole nation.

Śyāmasundara: I think we have many clothes out on the line.

Devotee: I don't think that in this discussion that we can convince in any way the (indistinct). I think the invalid aspects of Freud (indistinct) called irrational.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: We have scientific reasons

Devotee: But there are aspects of Freud's philosophy and psychology which they feel have proven beneficial for mankind. So many cases of, say, someone is paralyzed and they can't find any direct physical reason why a person can't walk, and through analysis they are able to trace down that it is due to some repressed trauma, what they call trauma.

Prabhupāda: What is?

Śyāmasundara: Shock.

Devotee: And therefore the person reacts on a physical level and they can't (indistinct) psychoanalyzing him and having him recall that event, then he is free…

Prabhupāda: Therefore our prescription is that in the beginning of life, teach him brahmācārya restraint, and when he is grown up, he is above twenty, get him married. In the beginning he will learn how to restrain. If you teach your child to become saintly, he retains his semina, his brain becomes strong, he can understand things, because wasting your semina means less intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is brahmacārī, if he stops misuse of semina, then he becomes intelligent and strong and fully grown. For want of education, everything is being stunted-brain, bodily growth, and everything. So after he is trained as a brahmacārī, if he thinks that still he will have sex enjoyment, all right, he can be married. But because he will have strength of body and brain, he will beget a child, immediately there will be male child. This is practical remedy. And because he has been trained from boyhood to renounce this material way of enjoyment, when he is fifty years old, naturally his first-born child must be twenty-five years old, so he can retire from sex life. (indistinct), because household life means a license for sex life. That is all. It is not required. But one who cannot restrain, he is given a license, "All right, you have sex life by marriage," as I explained in the beginning. So that is real program. That will save the society. Not by (indistinct) or some (indistinct) and this and that. They cannot find out the root disease. But if you give him all indulgence, then he will study the (indistinct). You should take information from the standard knowledge. That's what we have discussed (indistinct) sex impulse is already there. So from the very beginning you have to restrain. Otherwise you will be implicated.

Devotee: Is doing it from the beginning necessarily always going to work? For instance in Nairobi, (indistinct) he came with his wife and two children, and his son was so frightened, he never liked to leave the house at night because he thought when he left the house at night, when he returned the house wouldn't be there, and you were saying that that was recalled from his previous life, that he was bringing that… [break] …simple desires?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is continued from the previous birth. As soon as the seed is there, we are getting so many impressions, there are seeds, so many impressions. So therefore Lord Caitanya said that we are getting so many seeds, every moment, so one who is fortunate, he gets the seed of bhakti by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. The bīja is there, that seed, and if he nourishes that seed by watering, (indistinct), then it grows, he becomes a devotee. Everything is seed. Either bhakti or sinful life or anything-it grows (indistinct). So brahmacārī means from the very beginning sowing the seed of goodness, and if one becomes a devotee, then automatically other things are lost.

Śyāmasundara: So the Western system of bring up children is artificial, because they allow the child unrestrained freedom either to repress or to enjoy his sex desire.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not predictable.

Śyāmasundara: The Vedic program is a social program.

Prabhupāda: Social, yes. Just like Cāṇakya says. He is an experienced moralist, his ethical laws. He says, (indistinct), if you indulge in freedom, (indistinct) and if you restrict and restrain, that is very, very (indistinct). Therefore one should take care of his disciple and serve by chastising them, not giving them independence.

Śyāmasundara: Freud would say that this system of repression, by saying "Don't do this," is harmful to the child.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) repression of course-his idea of repression is different. Our idea is different. Our repression is you must rise early in the morning, you must attend maṅgala ārati.

Śyāmasundara: It's with knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Knowledge will come later on. But in the beginning, "must"; otherwise he will not (indistinct). Even if there is no knowledge, if by the order of the spiritual master or superior, you must do it.

Śyāmasundara: Freud's idea, being as he came from the Victorian age, when there was straight restraint of sex desire by the social structure, was that if you tell a child, "Don't look at a woman. Don't look at a woman," that this will…

Prabhupāda: We don't say like that-"Don't look at a woman." Here is a woman sitting, I am looking. Does this mean immediately you become polluted?

Śyāmasundara: What they say is that there is a conflict between a man's natural desire to enjoy women…

Prabhupāda: Therefore I use that strong word mūḍha, that they are actually fools. They do not know how to do things. Therefore I say they are actually big fools.

Devotee: The Freudian method would be to think back to those seeds and rectify them-think back and back and back and try to remember those seeds.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) he is already grown up. Where is the seed? That is nonsense. Seed means those already grown up, fructified. Where do you find the seed? That is nonsense. Just like as example you have got arrow and bow. So long as it is in your hand, it is all right, but when it is thrown, you cannot control it. It is out of your hand. Another example is this (indistinct). You have seen bamboo. When it is green, you can bend it, but when it is yellow, it will break.

Śyāmasundara: It is proven in practical experience of psychoanalysis that by remembering some traumatic or shocking experience in the person's life it relieves the emotional tension which has caused the disorder in his personality, and he becomes healthy again.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but if you sow a seed, the seed, when fructified, grown into a tree, then it is no more…

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't call it a seed; he calls it a shocking experience which we repress because it causes pain, and this repression makes a tension. For instance, a person grows up with a great hatred of woman: "Oh, I hate all woman."

Prabhupāda: That is particular (indistinct) for a particular person.

Devotee: Otherwise, let's say when the child was very young, the mother became angry and locked him in a room for too long, and he was crying, locked up. So then that person for the rest of his life, as soon as the windows are closed, he will be afraid, because he remembers, even if he has forgotten the original experience. He is always afraid of. That's claustrophobia.

Śyāmasundara: Freud says by remembering this experience you can explain…

Prabhupāda: Suppose the child is locked up, and his brain becomes deranged. Then how can (indistinct)?

Devotee: So let's say he's grown, he still has that fear, and Freud or one of his doctors will start to think back, "What do you remember from your childhood?" And then the doctor will see, "Oh, that is (indistinct)."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. He can find out what is the cause, but what is the cure?

Śyāmasundara: By remembering and explaining to him, "You were only a child. It wasn't really a bad situation," like this, and then the patient loses the tension which has caused the disorder, and he becomes healthy again.

Prabhupāda: That is psychoanalysis?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Psychoanalysis, psychotherapy.

Devotee: Actually the idea is that a child is sometimes unable to adjust to certain very extremes. It is called trauma, very shocking, and the child can't understand; he is simply very much stunned. So through his life he is affected by that. He can't remember exactly what it is, because he wants to forget it, it is so painful, but it manifests in some aberrant symptom later on, as he is afraid when the windows are closed. But by finding out what is the root of his fear,… (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) …I become afraid. Just like in that hospital, it was so nice, everything was so nice, but because I was thinking, "Oh, I cannot go out, I cannot walk," it was giving me too much trouble-that very thought that I cannot go out.

Devotee: (indistinct) sometimes they can't trace out the history of a particular case. The idea is that if they can find out from this person remembering back when they were young that he had been locked in a room, then (indistinct) the person was able to understand the significance of that incident, that it was really very small. Then it loses its importance in his life. He has been unable to resolve it because he has repressed it.

Prabhupāda: But I don't think when a man's brain is already deranged he can be rectified by finding out the cause.

Devotee: It's not that the trauma makes him crazy so that he cannot function in society. He could be a business executive who has claustrophobia; he can't stand getting in an elevator. He is leading a normal life in society but he has a problem which causes him a great deal…

Prabhupāda: So why not divert his attention to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Śyāmasundara: Ah, by a higher type of knowledge, if one realizes that he is not this body, then all those things will be…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is…

Devotee: That is why we are doing social service.

Prabhupāda: To divert his attention. (indistinct) That is understanding, and nicer thing (indistinct), that is our formula, (indistinct). Actually, as one increases his Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes (indistinct) all this material (indistinct). That is the prime remedy-panacea for all diseases.

Devotee: This Freudian philosophy is an offshoot from Darwin philosophy. Freud also thinks that man is a biological organism only; therefore his biological functioning should measure up to certain norms of biological behavior. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong. If it does, then everything is all right. So he makes some animal behavior good and other animal behavior substandard, and you want to bring everybody to a certain standard of animal behavior. But he has no conception of spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: We know he's a great fool, but we have to convince the students.

Prabhupāda: We have to convince them as I am convincing you. That is your business.

Śyāmasundara: Later on, Freud began to accept that certain nonsexual factors might produce these unconscious conflicts, also, and he divided the personality into three separate systems, called the ego, the super-ego and the id. The id is the unconscious instinctive drive to enjoy-sex desire, everything animalistic. The ego is that part of the mind concerned with adjusting efficiently to external reality. In other words, it's a moral segment of the personality which tries to adjust or protect.

Prabhupāda: We are trying to create (indistinct) these falsity. Everyone has got some false egoism. That is our (indistinct). Just like Freud is thinking that he is American or (indistinct). This is false ego. We are giving everyone the intelligence that this identification with this material body, that is (indistinct). Due to ignorance I am thinking that "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am (indistinct)." This is false ego-ahaṅkāra, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is inferior quality of egoism. The superior quality of egoism is Brahman: "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." So if he is taught to the superior engagement, then automatically this false egoism becomes stopped.

Śyāmasundara: He says that ego is concerned with self-preservation-by organizing and controlling against neurotic conflicts and the demands of the id. In other words, if the id sees something, like foodstuffs, it automatically has the urge to eat it, kill it, eat it. The ego is concerned with controlling that desire in order to preserve the individual. For instance, this becomes restrained. Voluntary restraint, control, by personalities and the superego are the authoritarian values of the society, or the parents which say "No, you do not kill like that. You do not eat this, like that." So these three systems are functioning in the personality, and they are always in conflict with a person as he progresses.

Prabhupāda: But the basic principle is called, as Vivekananda says, that he is following the principles of (indistinct), he has no conception of the soul that is existing beyond the body. So they are taking consideration of the body. So according to our philosophy, Bhāgavata, anyone who is in the concept of this body is no better than an ass. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. One who is identifying this body of three elements as the self, he is no better than an ass.

Śyāmasundara: These three types of reaction to anything-the id reaction, the ego reaction and the superego reaction-these are all bodily reactions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all bodily-subtle reactions.

Śyāmasundara: Each one is more subtle than the other.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: The id is the most gross,

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mind is the beginning of subtle. Just like my senses are gross, but my senses are being controlled by the mind. The mind is the subtle element, but mind is controlled by intelligence, and intelligence is controlled by ego. So if the ego is false, then the whole thing is false. If I am thinking I am this body, this false identification, ego, then all other things which are coming out of this false ego, they are also false. Therefore it is called māyā, or illusion, because they are standing on false platform. Therefore the whole Vedic education is that you be relieved from this false platform and come to the real platform. That is called brahma-jñāna, real platform. And in Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, (indistinct). When one comes to that knowledge that I am spirit soul, than immediately he becomes happy. All this trouble is due to this false ego. Immediately he comes back. (indistinct) What does this mean? The blazing fire of material existence is immediately extinguished. These philosophers are simply describing the blazing fire of material existence. We are trying to get him out of the prison. That's all. Immediately he feels relief: "Oh, I am out of the fire." And within the fire, however you try to make him happy, how will he be happy? The fire is already there. Save him from the fire. Then he is happy. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, (indistinct). And in Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, (indistinct).

Devotee: Twelfth Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa says, (indistinct), we are getting out. So our (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: We have more to discuss.

Prabhupāda: He is identifying the body with the soul. And our preaching is different-that we are not this body. Our first principle of understanding is to know that we are not this body. I am different from this body and I am transmigrating from one body to another. That they cannot express. They are explaining that the body is evolving from this body to that body. That is the basic misunderstanding.

Devotee: Freud's case is interesting, that he formed all of his conclusions by his observations of what he calls neurotic and psychotic patients. He observed mentally ill people, neurosis and psychosis, and he drew his conclusions about both sick and normal psychology from his observation of abnormal. He observed the normal behavior of neurotic people, psychotic people, crazy people, and from their behavior he tried to infer all about human psychology. So not only was he on bodily platform, but his only subject matter was the insane. So how can he draw valid conclusions about behavior?

Prabhupāda: So what is your answer?

Devotee: Yes, his observation is correct, but at the same time it doesn't invalidate Freud's use of psychology for supposedly normal people.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) psychology.

Śyāmasundara: He didn't analyze only crazy people; he also analyzed his friends, his mother, his wife, other people also, healthy people.

Devotee: The point is in Revatīnandana Mahārāja's argument is that we have to define, then, what is crazy and what is sane.

Prabhupāda: He is saying that he had studied only some crazy people.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: But that is not the fact. He analyzed some sane people also. But one psychiatrist's opinion is that (indistinct) was a civil servant, he was called to give evidence in a case where the criminal was pleading (indistinct) became insane while he committed the murder. So the civil servant was called to test him, whether actually he was insane or (indistinct) insanity. So he gave evidence that "I have tested so many persons, so I have seen that more or less everyone is insane. More or less. They are bewildered. So in that case, if insanity is the only plea that he should be excused, he can be excused. But so far as I know, everyone is more or less insane." And that is our conclusion. We say (indistinct), anyone who is infected with this material nature is more or less insane, crazy. He is crazy, not more or less. Anyone who has got this material body must be crazy. And therefore everyone is speaking in a different way.

Devotee: As a result of Freud's philosophy he prescribed, and many of his students prescribed, certain activities. This is one thing we forget to mention-that they prescribed certain activities to help relieve the patient of the trauma, and that is called therapy. Actually there is a higher therapy. Actually one of Freud's students would say that we are all involved in therapy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which we are, and that therapy is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therapy is a certain kind of activity which will relieve the anxieties and stresses of the mind.

Prabhupāda: That is recommended by Freud?

Śyāmasundara: No. He wasn't a therapeutical psychologist.

Devotee: No, but as a result of his…

Śyāmasundara: Later on they devised that theory of therapy.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) in support of our movement.

Devotee: According to our philosophy, everyone in this material world is under the spell of the material nature, māyā, "that which is not." So Freud observed that not only in crazy people, but in so-called normal people, everybody's lives are based on some types of illusion. So his psychoanalytic therapy is to trace out how I have come to this illusion or that illusion, that due to some childhood experience with my mother and father or my mouth or my genitals, something like that, all of these experiences are contributing to my unreal perception of the world. But the point which you made is that although he may have worked out what is one particular illusion, who is to prevent that there will not be another illusion? So our process is not to bother tracing out each and every illusion that we have, but to become free from the whole process of being controlled by illusory energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our position: not to be affected by any more illusion.

Devotee: He was analyzing the details of the particular illusion, but we are becoming free from the whole influence of māyā.

Devotee (2): (indistinct) the fire is extinguished.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) taken him out of the fire, then he is …

Devotee: But his one point is that Freud's theory underwent many changes. In the beginning…

Prabhupāda: Then (indistinct) because that is imperfect.

Devotee: His first doctrine was that we should indulge the senses, that this would help, but later he reformed that idea, that instead of indulging the gross senses we should sublimate our natural instincts to some higher cause. So his idea was that instead of actually indulging in gross sex life, we should channel this sexual impulse to some higher cause, such as for developing the culture.

Prabhupāda: That we have explained by quoting Śrī Yamunācārya's verse, that "Since I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whenever I think of sexual intercourse, my mouth becomes deformed and I want to spit."

Devotee: Freud would say that whatever talents you have, use them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But Freud says if somebody has the impulse to kill, he should become a surgeon. If somebody has the impulse to stab someone, then he should be directed to become a doctor and a surgeon, and then by that same cutting…

Devotee (2): This is still a limited conception of what…

Prabhupāda: Then all murderers should be sent to medical college to become surgeons instead of condemning them. Why not?

Devotee: Or put them in the army.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Devotee: They do not like that now. They recruit for the army from the prison.

Devotee (2): (indistinct)

Devotee: But we have the higher…

Prabhupāda: To some extent that is all right, because therefore the kṣatriya race is there, the fighting spirit.

Śyāmasundara: Another part of Freud's theory is that there is a life instinct and a death instinct, that we all have these two instincts, and that the death instinct is the impulse toward aggression and destruction, whereas the life instinct is the impulse towards self-preservation and sex and procreation. He said that people have these two impulses, and those who have the death impulse to extreme often direct it against the self, so that you have people who have accidents and diseases, that is all self-inflicted; that because I get some disease or have some accident, that is my death instinct directed against myself. So he saw that…

Prabhupāda: That is suicidal policy.

Śyāmasundara: If someone gets sick, it's because they want to get sick. Or if there is some accident, it is due to my own desire that that accident takes place. This is his theory.

Prabhupāda: How is this theory?

Devotee: We see practically. I think most of us have experienced this, and you have told us that if we overeat we will get sick, and we have all experienced that if we overeat we get sick.

Devotee: But my reason for eating more is not my tendency to get sick. (indistinct) is different. He says that this is the (indistinct).

Devotee: Yes. So therefore one should not overeat, but still even though we have all gotten sick, we will still go ahead and overeat and get sick.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes he analyzes that if there is a problem facing someone, that he will get sick, and that will resolve the problem. Psychosomatic sickness. And he saw that accidents happen in the same way.

Devotee: It sounds like to me that what he calls life instinct is what we call logical, and what he calls death instinct is what we call tamoguṇa. If some people… Let's say Freud never came across people who have the urge for mukti. People have the urge to go…

Prabhupāda: Neither death nor life…

Devotee: They haven't touch…

Śyāmasundara: That would be part of the life instinct, self-preservation-if you want to live forever.

Prabhupāda: There are others also: to want to die forever.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Death instinct.

Devotee: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes that "Vaiṣṇavas die to live," so when we die to live, that is another instinct.

Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā says, (indistinct), by giving up this body, that is death, (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Do you attribute accidents and disease to a desire for self-destruction?

Prabhupāda: No. Ultimately we say there is no such thing as accident. Nothing can take place without God's sanction. So there is no question of accidents.

Devotee: If they would have some information of the three kinds of miseries, ādhyātmika, ādibhautika, ādi-daivika, they should stop circulating all these kinds of instincts, because they understand all these different things are categorizing…

Śyāmasundara: I thought I heard you say before that some sicknesses and accidents are caused by the person's desire-the person desires to be sick; the person desires to have accident.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) person desires to be sick.

Devotee: Suppose somebody says, "Well, I want to be happy." So we say, "You just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and join us, then you will be happy." So he is saying, "No. I want to keep my job. I want to do this or that." So when we can say that actually he is not serious about becoming happy. If he really were serious about becoming happy, he would join us. So in a sense he actually doesn't want to be happy. That's what he would say.

Prabhupāda: He wants to be happy but he is miserable. That is (indistinct). He wants to be happy but he is misguided in search of happiness. Everyone wants happiness, but when one is misguided, that is called illusion. He is searching happiness without any basis. (break-continues next day)

Śyāmasundara: We are discussing Freud still. It was his idea that every person has certain aggressive and destructive tendencies within them, and sometimes these are directed upon the self, so that one will have accidents or sicknesses which are self-inflicted. Does this happen?

Prabhupāda: When one commits suicide, that is not in sane condition. He is crazy. In sane condition nobody commits suicide.

Śyāmasundara: He observed, for instance, when someone came up against a massive task, that sometimes they got sick in order to escape the task-these kinds of things. He investigated slips of the tongue and different accidents. He said that a lot of times they are caused by the self, the psychic.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is intention, not insanity.

Śyāmasundara: Another area of his investigation was the problem of anxiety. He says that the source of anxiety is the id, or the primitive instincts, which are always forcing us to do this and do that. In other words, desire. These impulses threaten to overpower the rational or the moral self. So there is always a tension or an anxiety produced.

Prabhupāda: Anxiety shall continue so long as you are in material condition. You cannot be free from anxiety in your conditioned life.

Śyāmasundara: It is because we desired something and we were always frustrated by that desire?

Prabhupāda: Frustration must be there, because you do not desire the right thing.

Śyāmasundara: So that is the basic cause of anxiety-desire?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Desiring something which is not permanent. That we call (indistinct). Suppose that I wish to live forever, but if I have accepted this material body, therefore there is no question of living forever. So I am always anxious when death should come. I am afraid of death, when the body will be destroyed. This is (indistinct). So therefore the conclusion is that anxiety is due to our acceptance of something which does not exist. This is the right definition of anxiety.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the ego develops strategies of defense against this anxiety which is entering from the id, and one of the strategies it develops is repression. Whenever there is some strong animalistic desire, the ego represses that desire in order to preserve itself.

Prabhupāda: Repression is always there. We make plans in so many ways, but by nature it is frustrated. That is repression.

Śyāmasundara: Is conscious repression advisable?

Prabhupāda: Conscious repression?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Of my basic instincts, my desires. Should I consciously strive to repress these desires?

Prabhupāda: Just like if you are in a diseased condition and you desire to eat something which is forbidden by the physician. So consciously you have to repress in order to cure. That is the way.

Śyāmasundara: I heard you say once that we cannot really repress desire but we have to channel it, control it, into other objects.

Prabhupāda: Repression means, suppose you have a disease, you are suffering from typhoid fever, and the doctor says that you don't take any solid food. Now if you desire to take a paratha, you have to repress it: "No, I cannot take paratha." Suppose there is looseness of your bile(?), and if you want to take some condensed milk, you have to repress it. (indistinct) go against you, you have to repress. Repress means repressing something which is going against my welfare. So in this brahmacārī system also there is repression. He should not see young woman, he should not sit down with young woman. But he desires. The desire is that "I shall see young woman." He has to repress. So this is called tapasya, voluntary repression.

Śyāmasundara: Aren't these desires given outlet in other ways? Do we channel the desires to some other field? Instead of seeing a beautiful woman, we see the beautiful form of Kṛṣṇa, like that?

Prabhupāda: That is our process. From this (indistinct) if you have got better engagement, you give up inferior engagement. When you are captivated by seeing the beautiful form of Kṛṣṇa, naturally you have no more desire to see the beautiful form of a young woman.

Śyāmasundara: The Buddhists also say repress desires, but they mean total repression.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't say that. We just say that sometimes there is strong desire, we have to repress it. Just like my Guru Mahārāja used to say that while you get up from bed, you beat your mind a hundred times with your shoe, and when you go to bed, you beat your mind a hundred times with a broomstick. Then you will be able to control your mind. Sometimes, just like wild tiger, they have got him to control by repression. The circus players, they do that. Because it is wild tiger, repression is required. But when it is under control, there is no question of repression. You can play with the tiger; he becomes your friend. So repression is not always bad.

Śyāmasundara: Another field of investigation for Freud was the idea of projection. He said this is a technique for attributing one's own unconscious attitudes onto other people. In other words, X called Y a name, but actually Y is the object of that. In other words, for instance, X may regard Y as being jealous, but in fact X is jealous and he projects that attitude onto someone else.

Prabhupāda: That is accepted. (indistinct) Everyone thinks others like himself.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this desire to accuse someone else of being the same is sometimes repressed and replaced by the opposite expression. In other words, someone may dislike someone, but they will inhibit that dislike and show overt symptoms of friendliness, where in fact there is no friendliness there but it is only a mock friendliness. This is one of the psychological attitudes he was studying. Sometimes someone who may have dislike for someone, instead of expressing dislike, may express just the opposite, extreme fondness, where in fact he dislikes the person.

Prabhupāda: That is called (indistinct), silliness. What is the meaning of silly?

Śyāmasundara: Silly means frivolous or superficial.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) If the other party is silly, then you also become silly. That is human nature.

Devotee: Freud would give an example like this: The child three or four years old, and then a younger child is born in the family. The four-year-old child sees the younger child as a source of competition for affection, and he doesn't like the younger child, but then if he expresses dislike for the child he will be chastised by the parents, so he makes as if he likes the child very much in order to get approbation, but factually he dislikes the child. That is another mechanism that…

Prabhupāda: I don't think the older child dislikes the younger child. Sometimes.

Devotee: Yes. But he would say this sometimes occurs.

Śyāmasundara: You don't notice it very much in Indian families because they are so well-adjusted, but in Western families this quite often happens-the older child becomes jealous of the younger child's favors, but in order to gain the favor of the parents, he expresses overt love for the younger child, or…

Prabhupāda: I don't think children are so clever, that in order to win the love of parents they will treat like that.

Devotee: Freud put so much emphasis on children and the mentality and emotions of children-what one is experiencing, youth and so on-and it is all concocted, don't you think?

Prabhupāda: Children can be trained in a different way. As you train them, they become like that.

Devotee: Freud says that all children experience this if there is a younger child born in the family.

Prabhupāda: They imitate. Children's position is imitation. I have seen in other children, one child was two years old and another child was three years old, and they were imitating just like they had seen sexual intercourse of their father. I have seen it. They are playing, lying down, and the male child is laying upon her. I saw it. Imitation. They do not know what is sex, but they will imitate it. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Freud analyzes that there are different defense mechanisms by which the ego protects itself.

Prabhupāda: The conclusion is that children generally imitate. They do not know what is the value, but they imitate.

Śyāmasundara: He would say there are instinctive defense mechanisms in the psychological make-up of everyone, such as repression, projection, excessive overt reactions of an opposite kind, different mechanisms which the ego employs to cover up, to protect itself from the impulses of the id, primitive impulses.

Devotee: Just like he says that from the social standards of conduct and moral codes, a person develops an ideal conception of himself. He wants to think himself ideal, and this ideal conception fits the standard of the society and his environment. Then from inside, from his more animal desires, sex desire, etc., he gets impulses which don't fit that standard, that he feels some sex love, but it should not be there, so he wants to say, "I don't really have that." So he tries to repress that desire either by repressing it or by saying, "I don't desire that. Somebody else desires like that," or in so many ways he tries to cover the fact that his own psychological make-up doesn't fit his standard. Therefore he calls it defense mechanism, a way to pretend as if I still am ideal, although I don't really have ideal desires and thoughts, like that. That's the (indistinct). So he postulated all these different mechanisms for defending the ego against the desires of the id or… [break]

Prabhupāda: You have seen that play?

Śyāmasundara: Tarzan?

Prabhupāda: Tarzan. Yes. He was brought up by monkeys. He was brought on… He has got the monkey habits. Children, if you keep them in good association, then they will come out very good. They will have psychological development in good way. And if you keep them in bad association, they will come out bad. Just like in Boston the priest regretted that these our American boys, they were so much after God, but they could not lead(?) them. Actually you American boys, before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there was no God consciousness; there was hippie consciousness. And now this has changed, due to association. So you are all grown-up, but even small children, if you keep them in good association, they come out nice. Demigods they come out. And if you put them in the demon association, they come out demons. So they are blank slate. As you write, it is written. That is real psychology. You can mold children as you like. They have got the capacity to… Therefore children are sent to a school for taking education, not old men.

Śyāmasundara: So there is no fixed pattern of development of children's personalities?

Prabhupāda: No. This is nonpsychology. You can mold them in any way. As you put them into the mold, they will come out. Just like you take a soft dough, and you can mold it-like parathas or capatis, kacaurīs.

Śyāmasundara: So actually Freud was speaking only of a certain set of children in a certain society, Western society, where they were all brought up a certain way.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. He has a got a one-sided experience.

Devotee: Yes. He has been criticized like that.

Śyāmasundara: You don't find these neuroses in Indian families.

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (2): They have studied subsequently primitive tribes and they have found that these neuroses were not there. They only existed in the social structure of Victorian Europe.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this is the conclusion-that if you put children in right association, they will go rightly, and if you put them in wrong association, they will go wrongly. They have no independent psychology.

Śyāmasundara: Perhaps his one contribution was that he said that behavior must be understood in terms of a person's whole life history, in the total…

Prabhupāda: That is why in our Vedic system it is forbidden that even a small child, before that small child, the husband and wife should not joking. They should not talk jokingly.

Śyāmasundara: To the child?

Prabhupāda: Before the child.

Śyāmasundara: Before the child.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: To each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not that "It is a small child. They will not understand." But they can understand. So what to speak of having sex intercourse before the child? They will learn it. I've seen it. They do not know what is sex intercourse, but they have learned it from their rascal father and mother.

Śyāmasundara: So Freud, actually his psychology depended upon a rather pessimistic view of human nature-that we are all beset with these uncontrollable impulses…

Prabhupāda: This in not only pessimism, but due to poor fund of knowledge. He has no perfect knowledge, neither is he trained up by any perfect man. So he is talking all nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: His conclusion was that it was impossible to be happy in this material world, but we can alleviate some of the conflicts through this psychoanalysis. You can try and make the path as smooth as possible, but it is always…

Prabhupāda: That is one (indistinct) that you cannot be happy in this material world, but if you are spiritually elevated, spiritually trained up, then you will be happy. The same example. Just like iron is not fire, but you put it in the fire, it will act like fire. Similarly, although there is no possibility of happiness in this material world, if you are spiritually trained up, if your consciousness is changed into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will be happy. (end)

JUNG.SYA

Carl Gustav Jung

Śyāmasundara: There is also another psychologist, Carl Jung, he's also very important. He followed Freud.

Revatīnandana: To some extent.

Śyāmasundara: I mean chronologically. Freud's idea was that unconscious processes are invariably infantile, animal, or pathological. Jung said that some unconscious energies are sources of positive and creative activity. That the unconscious is important for the growth and development of the mature and well-adjusted personality. Freud investigated the unconscious and found that the negative side, that our unconscious life is always threatening us, that it is the cause of pathological…

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by unconscious life?

Śyāmasundara: Subconscious, that which we are not consciously aware of…

Prabhupāda: That means it is consciousness but it is covered.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that unconscious part of our mind is dangerous, infantile, animalistic. But Jung says that the unconscious can also be positive and helpful to the growth of our personality, that it can be an asset to understand this unconscious life.

Prabhupāda: But I think that the subconscious status as it is covered by the present consciousness, similarly, it can be covered by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so that those subconscious states will be no longer able to react.

Śyāmasundara: He sees a positive or creative function of this unconscious…

Prabhupāda: Just like the other day I was citing the śloka of Yamunācārya about sex life. The subconscious status is there, sex life, but because he has got Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is spiting on it. That means the subconscious state cannot overcome. So our policy is that you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then all the subconscious status which is gathered for life after life, and they are stored, they are in stock, they will not be able to overcome.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that the mind is composed of a balance of conscious and unconscious, just like light and dark, there's an equal amount, but that the function of the personality is to integrate the conscious and unconscious functions. For instance, if one had a strong sex desire, if somehow he were able to cultivate or channel that into a creative art or a creative value. Just like this brahmācārya, that sex impulse is channelled into higher thinking about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is our process. Just like sex impulse is natural for everyone in the material (world), but if we think of Kṛṣṇa embracing Rādhārāṇī or dancing with the gopīs, then our sex impulse becomes subordinate, no more stronger. Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam āśv apahinoti. Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam, this is a heart disease, to be lusty. But if anyone hears about the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs, through right source, then this hṛd-rogam, this lusty desire in the heart, is suppressed and he will develop devotional service.

Śyāmasundara: This is an example of what Jung would call individuation, where the energies of the unconscious sex impulse are channelled into a conscious and creative activity of God realization. So those energies are being utilized in a proper way. This is what he would call integration or individuation.

Prabhupāda: This thing I was explaining, this prakṛti, it is very scientific. Kṛṣṇa is the only puruṣa, enjoyer and if every one of us serves everything in the propensity of His enjoyment, that is our enjoyment. That is our enjoyment-predominated and predominator. Just like, crude example, it is not exact: husband wants to enjoy wife, and the wife voluntarily helps him in that enjoyment, the wife also becomes joyful. Similarly, the supreme enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, and if you help Him in His enjoyment, then automatically we become also joyous. Predominated enjoyer and predominator enjoyer. Both of them enjoying but one of them is predominated, one of them is predominator. So predominated, when… He helps to be predominator, reciprocation of enjoyment.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's one point, I think if I understand it, you will say that from the man or a woman being you can see the (indistinct) sex desire is there, from the body comes sex desire. He says then that sex desire can be elevated for self-realization or for some kind of higher…

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Revatīnandana: No, but for some kind of higher pursuit, that same sex energy can be channelled at what you would call a higher (indistinct).

Devotee: Sublimation.

Revatīnandana: But we say that originally there were desires to enjoy coming from the soul. If it is channelled to the body it becomes sex lust, but if it is channelled higher it becomes higher (indistinct) for advancement. It's not coming from sex, it's coming from the soul, is that correct-the desire to enjoy?

Prabhupāda: No. Try to understand. Sex desire is there in everyone. So once sex desire is (indistinct) up, male sex desire and female sex desire. The sex desire is there in both male and female, but some from impartial view, it appears that the male is the enjoyer and the female is the enjoyed. So both of them are (indistinct). So the female, if she agrees to be predominated, enjoyed, then naturally she also becomes enjoyer. So living entities are described as prakṛti, female. So when the living entities agree to help Kṛṣṇa's sex desire, then they become happy.

Devotee (2): But it's not by Kṛṣṇa's sex desire. What is the meaning of the words "Kṛṣṇa's sex desire"? Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense enjoyment, you can say. Sensual enjoyment. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor of the senses. So when we help Kṛṣṇa for His sense enjoyment, then naturally we also (indistinct). Same example, just like a rasagullā. A rasagullā is to be enjoyed. So the hand takes it and puts it into the stomach. The hand does not enjoy it directly. And when it is put into the stomach, the hand also enjoys, the stomach enjoys, the eyes enjoys-everything. The direct enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, and all others, indirect enjoyer. By satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, others will be satisfied. Not directly. Just like a beloved wife, when she sees the husband is eating nicely and he is enjoying nicely, she becomes happy. She becomes happy. So there are two different categories: the predominated category and the predominator category. So by seeing the predominated happy, the predominator becomes happy. That is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So in one sense you could say that the conscious mind is the predominator and the unconscious…

Prabhupāda: Both of them are conscious, predominated and predominator. Both of them are conscious. Without consciousness there is no life.

Śyāmasundara: But in the individual personality if there is an unconscious and a consciousness, then the unconsciousness, or the unconscious state, should be predominated by the conscious state. The conscious state…

Prabhupāda: That is practically being done. Unconscious or subconscious states sometimes come out. They are not always present. But consciousness is always there.

Śyāmasundara: But if the consciousness is not the predominator, then sometimes a person's activities will be irrational or unconscious.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of unconscious. Subconscious, that is there. Yes.

Devotee (3): What is the exact meaning of the term "subconscious"?

Prabhupāda: Mm? Consciousness?

Devotee (3): I understand the principle of consciousness, but what is the exact meaning of the word "subconscious"?

Prabhupāda: Subconscious means is not acting at the present moment but it comes out sometimes.

Śyāmasundara: These psychologists say that quite often the unconscious is acting through the conscious, only we don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. The subconsciousness is there, but they are not manifest. But sometimes they are manifest. All of a sudden coming. There is no connection. Just like a bubble in the pond. All of a sudden a bubble comes up. You see. So the coming out of the bubble, the energy was there within, all of a sudden it comes out, "Pup!" Yes. And even you trace out why it came, but the, it is to be supposed that it was in the subconscious state; all of a sudden it has manifested.

Devotee (3): The bubble coming up is a sort of a proof that there is a subconscious which is holding that bubble and then it's released it, but where it's parted by these psychologists is that the subconscious nature is moving subconsciously. What it means is that we're not conscious of it; it's acting in a subconscious plane.

Śyāmasundara: Called a shadow.

Devotee (3): And so our consciousness can be modified by our subconsciousness without our being consciously aware of it.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Devotee (3): That is the idea.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Devotee (3): We're unconscious of the activities of…

Prabhupāda: Or sometimes subconscious state manifests which has no connection with my present consciousness.

Revatīnandana: Can we say that those subconscious states which sometimes reveal themselves are like stored in impressions in the mind?

Prabhupāda: That is stored impression.

Revatīnandana: (indistinct) potentially manifest…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: They are potentially manifest, but they don't have to. But they…

Prabhupāda: It is just like photograph. If you take so many snap, but not all of them immediately moves.

Revatīnandana: So they would posit that there's a mental functioning going on, a thinking functioning going on that we're not conscious of. I think we don't agree with that. Is that correct? We say that there's one mind, sometimes mental impressions come that are stored…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: …but in that storage area of the consciousness, there is no thinking going on there. Is that correct? The unconsciousness mind is not thinking like the conscious mind.

Prabhupāda: No, no. But the impression is there.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All of a sudden it comes out.

Śyāmasundara: So Jung says that there are two types of unconscious process. The first…

Prabhupāda: Why does he say unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Two types of unconscious process.

Revatīnandana: No. Subconscious.

Prabhupāda: Subconscious, that is the right term. Why does he say? Even in psychology they call "subconscious," why he's speaking "unconscious"?

Śyāmasundara: The German word is unbewust, which means "unbeknown," so we have translated "unconscious," but it means more like "subconscious."

Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness, of course there is, that is not (indistinct) the same thing. That is not manifest. Unconsciousness, but it will manifest.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are two kinds of subconscious state. The first one is the personal unconscious, or those personal items which are highly individual from one's previous childhood, from his infantile history, certain things occurred, they were repressed, and so on. These are stored in our own unconscious state and they are aroused into consciousness in dreams and through psychoanalysis. But he also posits another type of unconscious, or subconscious, state called the collective unconscious. He says that evolution has predetermined the human brain to react in terms of basic principles derived from the experience of many generations. In other words, that my ancestors had left impressions in my brain from the time of my birth, how to react according to their experiences. Is this true, that there is a collective experience which is passed on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That experience we say paramparā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. That is cultivated.

Revatīnandana: He would be more…, he would say there is a German mentality, Russian mentality, English mentality, (indistinct) cultural.

Śyāmasundara: No, no, no. He says that these archetypal tendencies are tendencies to react in a certain manner originating from the remote past, which are true for all humans whether they are primitive savages or whether they are modern men. Just like, well, any tendency…

Prabhupāda: We don't take any experience from the primitive savages. That is not paramparā. Savages cannot give us any advice or instruction.

Śyāmasundara: Just like when we investigate different folklores, different mythologies all over the world, we find certain symbols which are the same. For instance the swastika, we find that in the Indian mythology and you find it in Māyā or Inca, western Indians' mythologies as well. And different symbols which are common to man all over the globe, whether they are primitive or whether they are advanced, he says that these are archetypal images which for thousands of generations have been passed on in men's consciousness. So that we are composed not only of our own individual thoughts and ingredients but also the ingredients of our ancestors. Is this a fact?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called tradition. That is called tradition. But that is not paramparā. Paramparā is different. Paramparā means we get the right knowledge from the supreme. It is not something ac…, what is called? What he is speaking?

Śyāmasundara: Acquired. Archetypal. Means the original type.

Prabhupāda: My acquired knowledge can be changed by understanding from superior. Just like generally we have got bodily concept of life, but Kṛṣṇa says, "No. You are not this body." So this knowledge is not coming to me from tradition, but I learn it from great authorities like Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: But he would, for instance, say that our means…, aware of understanding Kṛṣṇa as a supreme father, as our cause and so on, is an archetypal tendency that is shared by all human entities, that they have the same tendency to react in that way, to understand someone as their father or as their cause. And they will represent Him in different ways but always…, always similar.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We see that. Exactly similar. Rather, this father is (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the supreme father. It is similar. As father has many sons, similarly Kṛṣṇa has many sons. You can say it is similar. As sons are born, children are born of father, similarly, we are born of Kṛṣṇa. It is similar.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, in the dream life, our dream life, in the dream life of savages or anyone else on this planet, certain common occurrences take place in the dream. Sometimes we feel we are flying in dreams, or sometimes we feel that there's a disruption coming from below, or certain symbols are there, common to all men. He calls these archetypes or the collective unconscious. All human beings share these propensities.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Universally one.

Prabhupāda: Mm. We have no objection in that way.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible, or is it confirmed that the similarities in symbolism and cultural relationships, which are similar in civilizations all over the world, can that be due to the fact that they are all coming from the same source? Five thousand years ago there was one culture?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: So you find the same symbols in the South American Incas as we find in India as we find in the Pacific Islands because they are coming down from the original Vedic culture in different states of…

Prabhupāda: Vedic culture or non-Vedic culture, there are so many similarities. It doesn't matter. Because you are living being, the similarities are there. Just like every living being eats. It is similar to everyone. Every living being sleeps. It is similar to everyone. Every living being mates. It is similar to everyone. Every living being fears. So you have to take the greatest common factor. There are so many similarities.

Śyāmasundara: He would say also that every human being may draw a circle to represent something which is whole and complete.

Prabhupāda: That is religion. These four principles are similar to every living entity. But when you come to the human platform, there is religion. That is not in the animal. That is the distinctive function of the human being. So if human being (is) without any religious principles, he is similar to animal. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. Therefore in every group of civilized human society, there is some sort of religion. It may be Hindu religion, Christian religion, Buddhist religion, but tendency is to accept some religion. And religion means understanding of God and our relationship with Him. So the modern civilization, according to Darwin's theory, they are advancing to become animal. That's it. Therefore they are claiming their forefathers are coming from monkeys. That somebody said on the other day, Vivekananda was asked that "Why your Indian forefathers did not come, long years ago?" He answered, "Because your forefathers were jumping in the tree." (laughter) It is very nice answer. "Our forefathers did not come because your forefathers were jumping in the tree."

Śyāmasundara: So this investigation by Jung opened up a new kind of universality in philosophy because it was seen that the same symbols are common to all men, of all religions.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you come to the platform of human being, there is one similarity: religion. It may be under different name. Even in the aborigines, there is religion. Just like Red Indian, they have a religion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And they have the same symbols, many of them.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that is a common concept. To accept some type of religion, this is common. Now, that type of religion may be different from me, but the principle is there. Just like eating principle is there, sleeping principle is there; similarly religious principle is there.

Śyāmasundara: And he said that each culture, or civilization, religion, they have the same understanding of the duality of existence, that there's an equal amount of dark, an equal amount of light, which he calls the yin and yang aspect or the anima and animus aspect. Under different names the same understanding is there in all religions.

Prabhupāda: Is that equality, darkness?

Śyāmasundara: Darkness and lightness-the duality of nature. Unconscious and conscious, he calls; these two things. He says that everyone has…, understands these are equal, balanced, these two stages, states of existence.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily equal. Sometimes it may be imbalance. One side may be heavier than the other.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Actually he says that most personalities are imbalanced and that the goal of life is to become balanced, or integrated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hmm.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that not only individual analysis and dream interpretation are there, but also we must examine folklore, myth, religions, symbolisms and all these, to get a better psychological insight into the unconscious process.

Prabhupāda: So better psychology is that first of all human being or lower than human being. Lower than human being, they have got four principles-eating, sleeping, mating, and fearing-and human being extra, religion. Now which religion is higher, that you have to study. So that answer is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: the religious system which develops towards loving God, that is first class.

Śyāmasundara: So if they are loving God, automatically either unconscious or conscious states are all balanced, brought together.

Prabhupāda: The loving propensity is already there, (indistinct) loving God. So somebody is loving, it's a fact. So loving propensity is there, but the loving propensity is misled; therefore he becomes (indistinct). Instead of loving (indistinct), if you love Kṛṣṇa then our loving propensity becomes perfect.

Śyāmasundara: This Jung, Carl Jung, I studied with his disciples in Zurich for six months one winter, and he came…, toward the end of his life he became very religious. At the beginning he was an atheist, but after this study he began to understand that the perfect end of psychology is to integrate and become balanced as a personality. And the best way, the only way, the time-tested way, is to be a religious person.

Prabhupāda: Means to become a religious person means to become a lover of God. Did he love God or something else?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He became very much religious, and all his disciples are very religious, but in sort of a mystic way, not, not so much an organized religion. A little bit of hodge-podge.

Prabhupāda: That is no (indistinct). Without clear conception of God, must be hodge-podge.

Śyāmasundara: But they lean toward the east, toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the end-Buddhism, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Buddhism?

Śyāmasundara: Tibetan Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tibetan Buddhism.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Mystical understanding of good and evil forces, embodied good and evil forces, demonic forces, demonic persons. So that at the time of death the person is supposed to be floating for some time, and he can fall into the (indistinct) of demonic or be helped by good forces to achieve some liberation or higher birth.

Prabhupāda: I think in one sense they are accepting sattva-guṇa and tamo-guṇa.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Actually this Jung has had a great impact on modern thinkers, because he took psychology out of the laboratories and made it more a human science, a personal, personality science that involves unconscious states, mystic states, religious states, not just something analytical and cold. And especially younger people are very much fond of hearing (indistinct).

Devotee (3): (indistinct) this Carl Jung drew a picture of what he thought the face of a realized soul might look like, a person, a person in perfect knowledge. And that picture was printed, and it looks like Prabhupāda. (laughter) (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: His investigation of symbols around the world, he found that the symbols most used for someone who has realized the self are the jewel and the child-these two symbols. These are symbolic of someone who has attained the ultimate perfection. A jewel and the child.

Prabhupāda: Jew and the…

Śyāmasundara: Jewel, jewel.

Prabhupāda: Oh, jewel.

Śyāmasundara: Jewel.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And a child.

Prabhupāda: How child has attained perfection?

Śyāmasundara: The same kind of innocent happiness that a child has.

Prabhupāda: Then when he grows he deteriorates. If he has attained perfection, how does he deteriorates?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: The Christian idea. The Christian idea is that the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Whatever idea it may be, he could say it is perfect, then how it deteriorates?

Śyāmasundara: Well, it's just a symbol of someone who has achieved perfection, that they are childlike, that they are happy and jolly, innocent.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But the child is not perfection.

Śyāmasundara: No. It's only a symbol.

Revatīnandana: (indistinct) The child symbolizes faith and…

Śyāmasundara: Love and…

Revatīnandana: …natural devotion. Like Jesus said, "Unless you come to me as little children, you can't enter into the kingdom of God."

Prabhupāda: That's (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Even Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's often portrayed as a child.

Revatīnandana: He's eternally child, sixteen years old (indistinct).

Nara-nārāyaṇa: (indistinct) a symbol (indistinct) Nārada Muni, or yourself or Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct) symbol of a child. We have an actual person.

Devotee (3): (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, another one of his ideas is that the unconscious material on the person's personality sometimes emerges in the form of a complex, what's called a complex. This complex has the ability to initiate and organize behavior. Sometimes we say someone has a superiority complex or an inferiority complex or this complex or that complex. It means that they tend to act in a certain way. Inferiority complex means I consider myself inferior to others, and I react in a very inhibited fashion. Or if I have a superiority complex I act in a very arrogant fashion. Like that. These are his observations, that people who act in certain ways which are called complexes.

Prabhupāda: So we are…, what we are? Inferior or superior? Kṛṣṇa conscious, we think ourselves as servant of God. Is that inferior or superior?

Śyāmasundara: Well, our practice is not unconscious.

Prabhupāda: No. We are conscious.

Śyāmasundara: We are conscious, so we do not rely on the complex to guide us, or an unconscious impulse to guide us.

Prabhupāda: No. We are not guided by impulse. We are guided directly, instruction from the superior.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Our process is to acquire knowledge from the superior. We are not guided by these complexes.

Śyāmasundara: He said that there are two basic attitudes: an extrovert attitude and an introvert attitude. An extrovert has an outgoing orientation; they are always friendly and sociable. An introvert has an inward withdrawal from his environment and is always very quiet and meditative. These two types of personalities, he sees existing everywhere. And all of us, we are these…, one or other of these personalities.

Prabhupāda: Muni. This is called muni.

Śyāmasundara: Introvert?

Prabhupāda: I think introvert, yes. Muni.

Revatīnandana: The introspective.

Devotee (3): There's a difference between an introspective person and an introvert. An introvert, somebody who is concerned with his false ego, turns in on himself, that he doesn't express himself outwardly to others, while an extrovert does. "Vert" means "to turn." So he's turned in upon himself, on his own personality.

Prabhupāda: Self-centered.

Devotees: Self-centered, yes.

Devotee (5): An extrovert is also self-centered, he keeps himself in the center of a large social structure. He only considers his own personality without interacting with others.

Devotee (3): One has more or less one or the other…

Prabhupāda: But how do you say that man is a social animal? How can you avoid society?

Śyāmasundara: An introvert doesn't avoid society, but in all his activities he doesn't relate to others actively. He'll go to school, he goes to the things that he has to do, but he's always very quiet and timid, shy.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: A mouse is an introvert, and a tiger is an extrovert. A tiger is an extrovert. He doesn't care for anyone.

Prabhupāda: But the mouse is also.

Devotee: He's like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct-many talking together)

Revatīnandana: It seems like this introverted personality actually covers two different personalities. One is that kind of people who are dreamers, who have retreated from the world, and the other kind of people who actually (are) introspective, who are looking for truth. These can be two people within that category.

Devotee (6): We have bhajanānandī and goṣṭhyānandī.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, extrovert and introvert.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's the same classification. Everywhere people are one or the other of those. Active or passive.

Revatīnandana: It seems like the extrovert is (indistinct), that the extroverted person's in the mode of passion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct)

Revatīnandana: But the introverted person could be even in tamoguṇa or sattva-guṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is right.

Revatīnandana: So that is not (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: So similar, that there are the paramahaṁsa and there are mleccha-yavanas. The paramahaṁsa is not under any rules and regulations, and the mlecchas also, they are not under rules and regulations.

Revatīnandana: Like Śukadeva Gosvāmī, they thought he was a madman, and this would be tamoguṇa, but actually he was…

Prabhupāda: Transcendental.

Devotee (3): It's time for massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: All right. [break]

Śyāmasundara: So today we'll finish that psychologist Jung, Carl Jung. As we were discussing before, his idea is that there is a collective unconscious, there is an unconscious state of mind and there is a conscious state of mind. The inner, the working between these two, conscious and unconscious, determines the personality of the living entity. The behavior of the living entity is determined by the interaction between his unconscious and his conscious…

Prabhupāda: That is called, in Sanskrit, (indistinct), (indistinct) and suṣupti. When you are fully conscious, that is called (indistinct). And (indistinct), dreaming, that (indistinct). And another state, suṣupti, no consciousness. That is (indistinct). It is called… Operation?

Śyāmasundara: Anaesthesia.

Prabhupāda: Anaesthetic.

Śyāmasundara: This dreaming state he calls unconscious also.

Prabhupāda: No. That is conscious. I am dreaming, I am conscious. That is not unconscious.

Śyāmasundara: He says that in this dream state…

Prabhupāda: Suppose if a tiger is coming to attack me, I am crying, and people are hearing. How do you say it is unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: I don't know the terms.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (3): The subject matter of which one is unaware in the waking state is termed by him the unconscious. But there is consciousness there, and because of that, the terminology is not…

Śyāmasundara: The contents of the unconscious come into a conscious mind during dreams…

Prabhupāda: That is consciousness. That is dream. You can say dream. You must analyze scientifically. Dream goes such-and-such. But anaesthetic stage is unconscious. When your throat is being been cut up, you (indistinct). But in sleeping state, if (indistinct) immediately (indistinct). That is not unconscious.

Devotee: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, he says that there are many factors which are unconscious which determine our personality that we may not be aware of-many hopes, many fears, many contents of our own consciousness that clarify our personality and which we are not aware of…

Prabhupāda: Yes, (indistinct). Just like when we are in the womb of our mother. Up to seven months we are unconscious. That means to remain unconscious for seven months, that is death. Living entity does not die; he remains unconscious for seven months.

Devotee (5): That's actually suṣupti?

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] (indistinct) …anaesthetic, when the medicinal effect is lost, it comes. Zero mistake. (indistinct) come. These are three stages: consciousness, dream, and unconsciousness. So he does not know suṣupti. He simply considers the dreaming unconsciousness. When he sees dream, he thinks (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Not really… But because there are so many unconscious factors that govern our personality, our behavior, that unless a person becomes aware of these unconscious factors, then he is more or less a slave to them, to his unconscious life. So the whole point of psychology is to point out to a person all his unconscious contents, that he becomes aware of them and faces them face to face.

Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. That we have shown. But he remains unconscious state. That is (indistinct). That we are teaching. We are simply, loudly stating, "Please wake up. Please wake up. We are not this body. We are not this body." So these are the (indistinct) dream. You cannot raise him to the consciousness. He is fully packed up in matter. That is not possible. But he is also conscious. That is proved by (indistinct). He applied machine: in the remote part he is feeling the pain when you cut. But it is not very manifest. Just like children, they are not so conscious, you operate. I have got a (indistinct), my eldest daughter, she (indistinct). So she was about less than one year… No, no. About six months. The doctor was operating, (indistinct). She was not frightened. (indistinct) Minor operation. So the human form of life is the developed consciousness of the living entity. In other forms of life they're more or less in dreaming state or unconscious state. But as living entity, the consciousness is there, in different stages.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, he (indistinct) in all mythology and religion and all of these so-called scientific symbols for the conscious state and the unconscious state. Just like the unconscious state is often represented as the ocean.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: The unconscious state is often represented or symbolized by the ocean or (indistinct) or as the…

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: The ocean.

Prabhupāda: Ocean has no consciousness. It is matter.

Śyāmasundara: Well, as a symbol…

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: …of the unconscious state. They are often represented as an ocean or as a figure of what he called the anima.

Prabhupāda: He mentions animals?

Devotee: No. He called it anima. It's a Greek word for the female aspect of nature.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: And the male aspect is often represented by the sun or (indistinct) sky or the father, called the animus, the father aspect of nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We also compare sun as the (indistinct) knowledge. Just like we compare Kṛṣṇa with sun and māyā with darkness.

Śyāmasundara: And māyā is a woman.

Prabhupāda: Māyā is woman. You can compare like that, darkness. Kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama māyā andhakāra [Cc. Madhya 22.31]. So as soon as there is sunshine, there is no more darkness. Similarly, when, as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no more that state of unconsciousness or dreaming. (indistinct) conscious.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all human entities have a mixture of divine and demonic tendencies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is divine by nature. He is covered by nondivine, by māyā. That is our philosophy. He's in a (indistinct). Just like this same example: the man is living, there is breathing, but he has no consciousness. Just like you put electric in that (indistinct), how you call, (indistinct). So similarly, by the influence of māyā, we have forgotten ourself, our spiritual nature.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this unconscious state or this, I don't know, maybe we can call it māyā, the unconscious life, has also beneficial effects in that it…

Prabhupāda: What is that beneficial?

Śyāmasundara: That it's also a reservoir of creative energy. If it is utilized properly, then it can be an asset.

Prabhupāda: When (indistinct) utilize it. A person who has, who is under the influence of anaesthetic, what he can do? He cannot do anything. He has to drop again to consciousness platform, then he can do something.

Śyāmasundara: He says that behavior is classified under different functions, for example there is sensory behavior, thinking behavior, fear and emotional behavior…

Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct), because the animals, the consciousness is not developed, and the animals' behavior is different. Similarly, if a man is not in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, (indistinct) any difference? Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he'll not act anything like killing one animal, but another who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he will kill animals: "I must kill. I must kill." But the same man, when he is brought into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he'll refuse. Just like the shikari, (indistinct), he was killing animal, half dead, he would enjoy. The same man, by grace of Nārada, when he became Vaiṣṇava, he was not prepared to kill even one ant. So the man is the same, the consciousness is different. So our program is like that. To bring man into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will become perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these different functions, people can be typified or classified as being more or less in one of these types of functions. We describe a man as a thinking man or a feeling man, a sensory man…

Prabhupāda: That we also say, that just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-in terms of different stages of consciousness. So the highest stage is the Vaiṣṇava.

Śyāmasundara: How is…, how does Vaiṣṇava act? What are his…?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava acts in terms of his relationship with Kṛṣṇa, God.

Śyāmasundara: So he is both. He is all these things. He is thinking, he is feeling…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava means fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: So his idea is that everyone adapts to their environment, either as, according to one of these three things: extroversion, introversion, or a dominant function. So…

Prabhupāda: That we also say. According to material condition of life, they differ, they are classified. The highest stage is Vaiṣṇava. He is completely transcendental (to) material condition. Next the brāhmaṇa, then next the kṣatriya, then next the vaiśya, then next the śūdra, and next means less than śūdra, all caṇḍālas. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because that is natural, even from the caṇḍāla stage one can be brought to the highest transcendental stage of Vaiṣṇava.

Śyāmasundara: So would you say that the lower stages of life are, could be termed irrational, and the higher stages of life termed rational?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Righteous.

Śyāmasundara: So the consciousness becomes more and more developed…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …as we proceed higher.

Prabhupāda: Not developed. Uncovered. There are different layers of material contamination. So that has to be cleansed. (aside:) You can come this side. (indistinct). The more the layers are cleansed, his original consciousness come out. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleaning the dirty things accumulated on the heart.

Śyāmasundara: So consciousness is not the (indistinct)…

Prabhupāda: Consciousness, as soon as they (indistinct), then consciousness is there. That is the symptom of living condition.

Śyāmasundara: Although the consciousness of a tree…

Prabhupāda: Just like fire. There is fire, so cover it. Covering, covering. When it is true cover, then they don't get the heat and light. But they cleanse the covering, move the covering, the fire is there.

Śyāmasundara: So even the consciousness of the tree is originally higher than (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is simply covered. The potency is there. Just like a flower in the bud stage, the potency is there to become a (indistinct) flower. So the covering by gradually coming out, coming out, finally, very beautiful rose.

Śyāmasundara: But someone would say that that bud is developing into a flower.

Prabhupāda: That is a (indistinct) in the terminology. Just like we say that we are changing bodies, they say developing bodies. So anyway, either you say developing or changing, the original body is not there. That you have to accept. The child's body, either you say it has developed into youth's body, and either you say that is (indistinct) body. I say the child's body is gone; it is another body. In both cases, the child's body is no longer existing. That you have to agree-either you call developed or it has gone.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the personality which we manifest in our social lives, in our family life, at work, etc., is called our persona, or our mask. We have to present a certain personality in our family and social and our working life, which is…

Prabhupāda: This is (indistinct), this mask. Just like your face is covered with some mask. That mask is taken away, uncovered, then your real face is seen. So it is not development; it is covering. He cannot say that I saw you just like a monkey's face, but when the mask is taken away, become a beautiful gentleman face. This gentleman's face is not developed, it is already there. Simply it was covered by the mask and you take it away and you see your real self. That is our process, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The mirror is covered with dust, and you cleanse it and see your face nicely. So it is not the developing process, it is cleansing process.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we show ourself to the world not as our total self…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …but that we show a picture of ourself…

Prabhupāda: That we call ignorance, ajñāna. And that ajñāna is moved by the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master is worshiped, ajñāna timirāndhasya jñānāñjana śalākayā. "I was covered by the darkness of ignorance and the spiritual master has moved that darkness by giving me knowledge, jñānāñjana."

Śyāmasundara: So this persona, or this mask that someone wears, or show it to their family or their friends, is not the whole self. He says that the, behind that mask there is what's called the shadow, or those repressed dispositions which a person has but does not show.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhāgavatam, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Those who are not seeing the position of spiritual, as the spirit soul, they are so much attached in this family life, worldly life, national life, (indistinct) material life, this life, that life. They are all false, but because he has no knowledge of the soul, he is attached to all these things. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Ātma-tattvam means the science of soul. That he does not know; therefore he is attached, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. These are different types of gṛha. Just like a man is not very much advanced in nationalism, he thinks "This my house is everything." And one who has developed that like Gandhi, his family life developed into nationalism. So that is also gṛha. He is asking, I mean to say, Englishman, "Go away! It is mine." But that mahātmā, that greatness is simply expanding beyond the gṛha. He's a still gṛha-medhi. We don't say like that, "Oh, you Englishman, you cannot have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So that, therefore, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are mahātmā. (indistinct) These kind of mahātmās, they are not mahātmā, they are gṛha-medhis, but they have been given the title, false title. Just like in Bengali we say, the mother's love is child, and the child is blind. Still, "Oh, my child's eyes are just like lotus flower." (greets guests) [break]

Śyāmasundara: So in other words, Jung is saying that we have our personality that we show to the world but we also have a personality which we don't show to the world, which is secret which is repressed, which we don't like to reveal.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is called cheating. Yes. In Sanskrit it is called bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsā, karaṇā. Vipralipsa, that is one of the tendencies of the conditioned soul, that he wants to cheat others. So their confidential means cheating.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, someone may have some kind of desire which he does not like to reveal to others, so he keeps it suppressed, unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is politics. That is diplomacy. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita advises, (Sanskrit): "Don't manifest your intentions by your words, since you are thinking (indistinct)." These things are required because it is material world. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has advised, tato śāstram samadvayam (?). The people are cheaters, so you have to become cheater also; otherwise you cannot live. What can you say? Just like a shopkeeper, everyone knows that he is making profit, but he has to make bargain. So a shopkeeper says, "I am taking (indistinct). You are my friend, I am not taking a single paisa profit." How he'll do it, come on (indistinct). But if you know that he is making business, he must make profit. But he's cheated. He doesn't want to be cheated. That's all. So therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that "This is a society of cheaters and the cheated." That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes this shadow personality, he says, is not even known to myself. I don't even know my…

Prabhupāda: Why you will know? You are being cheated. How can you know?

Śyāmasundara: I mean my own personality. I think I am this, but actually I am that.

Prabhupāda: That is also true, because when one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or self conscious, he thinks this body as "I am." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13], sa eva go-kharaḥ. So such persons who identify the body as the self, he is no better than the ass and the cow.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, I may think that I am like this, I am like that, but I don't realize that I am also like this. There's some other part of me which I'm not aware of which is guiding my behavior, which I repress.

Prabhupāda: Unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he thinks (indistinct), that "I am like this," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am this," "I am that." But when he's fully conscious, he knows that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is the final (indistinct). Otherwise he (indistinct), "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."

Revatīnandana: (indistinct) actor who take parts in a cinema production, he said that whenever he takes a part he probably could becomes, that actor, he (indistinct), or the part that he actually forgets who he thinks he is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The best actor is he who forgets his real identity and plays blindly. That is best actor. He forgets, but he creates such (indistinct) that he forgets that he's Mr. Such-and-such.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, but secretly, unknown to him there may be something about him that he does not know himself…

Prabhupāda: So therefore (indistinct) we are after (indistinct). Therefore we have forgotten our self but we are identifying "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."

Nara-nārāyaṇa: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct). Yes. So (indistinct) occupation.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the purpose of psychology is to come to grips with our unconscious or our shadow personality, and we must know who I am completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge. That is real (indistinct). Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself to Lord Caitanya, "Please let me know what I am." This is the business. It requires the assistance of guru to understand our real identity.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, he says that all male personalities, in their shadow personality, there is a bit of the female, and in all females there is a bit of the male propensity. So often we cover these up and become repressed and we do not understand our actions.

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy, because every living entity is by nature a female, prakṛti. I was discussing this morning, parā prakṛti, living entity, but it is prakṛti. Prakṛti means female and puruṣa means male. So here in this material world, although we are prakṛti, we are (indistinct) ourselves as puruṣa. This male-female dress, that is immaterial. Our consciousness is now male consciousness. A female, the so-called female, here, she also wants to enjoy a male, and the male also, he also wants to enjoy the female. Both of them have the same propensity of enjoying. So this enjoying propensity is for male. Therefore jīvātmā is sometimes described as puruṣa. But actually the jīvātmā, the living entities, they are puruṣa, he's prakṛti. Prakṛti means predominated, and puruṣa means predominator. So we are all predominated. And the (indistinct) predominator is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore originally, by constitution, we are all females.

Śyāmasundara: But in the male, so-called male species, there's a different temperament. There's dominance, there's aggressiveness…

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no difference in temperament. The real (indistinct), the center (indistinct). Just like in your country it is the women is very (indistinct) that why they shall not be treated exactly like men. And the same thing is coming in our country also.

Śyāmasundara: And the men also want to have long hair and…

Prabhupāda: Actually, the real position is that every living entity is female, originally. But falsely he is imitating to become a male, enjoy. This is called māyā. Actually he is female, but he is trying to imitate the supreme male, Kṛṣṇa. That is called māyā. This is not fact. So our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you come to the original state, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are not predominator, you are predominated. Predominated means female.

Śyāmasundara: So for instance in nature, he sees male and female characteristics. For instance a mountain, we see a mountain and we give it a male, a male characteristic because it is strong, it is dominant, it is (indistinct), like this. And the sea, which is passive and calm and deep, we give a female aspect. He sees all these in nature.

Prabhupāda: These are all mental concoction. It has to be more scientifical. You can think of something in your own idea. That's all. That is not the real identity of it. What is that?

Devotee (3): You said that all things are created out of the water of origination. There's an ocean, the Kāraṇodaka, by which all these worlds are generated, (indistinct) the primeval ocean, from which (indistinct) the ocean…

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the ocean has been generated? Everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu is lying in that ocean, that's all. So I'm lying on this bed, and something is coming out of my breathing, that does not mean it is coming from the bed. That's all.

Devotee (3): That is the reference to the ocean of the womb.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) You can say like that. (indistinct) And the child is floating in that water.

Śyāmasundara: Well, are there not certain characteristics that are particularly male and certain characteristics that are particularly female?

Prabhupāda: Male is only God. That is the characteristic. Male means enjoyer and female means enjoyed. So except God, except Kṛṣṇa, nobody is enjoyer. Therefore He's God.

Śyāmasundara: So it's a false idea to think that anything is masculine besides God.

Prabhupāda: Masculine is a different (indistinct). Masculine gender. So that is called (indistinct), symbolic. But a real male is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: So what is masculine?

Prabhupāda: Masculine, that means the symbolic representation in the material body is called masculine. Just like we (indistinct)… Just like in Bengali it is said, when you see cow, whether you see male or female, you just raise up the tail and you will understand. So a cow, I mean to say, vagina is covered by the tail, so if you raise on the tail of a calf by, simply by raising the tail you can understand whether it is a male calf or female calf. So this science is a representation of the mentality.

Śyāmasundara: So the mentality of God.

Prabhupāda: Not God-of the particular living entity.

Śyāmasundara: So to say that, for instance, the ocean is a female, has female characteristics, and the mountain has masculine characteristics…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I do not know why the ocean has female characteristics (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Well, they say "mother ocean." They sometimes say "mother ocean."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is just like because ocean keeps within, her cover, covering element. (indistinct) element. As the female keeps the child covered within the abdomen, so in that comparison you can say "mother." But similarly in the mountain also, there are so many minerals, so many gems, and so many nice stones. Simply by saying it is very strong. So generally male is strong and the female is weak. In that sense you can give a terminology.

Śyāmasundara: So he gives a definition of the cell. He says that "The cell is a center or an organization within the personality which seeks to develop towards a goal of maturity and integration, the harmonious bonds of conscious and unconscious disposition." So he says that within the personality there's a center, which strives to organize the personality in such a way that anything is integrated, unconscious and unconscious. Unconscious and conscious states are all integrated, in harmony. This is the cell.

Prabhupāda: What is the explanation, unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Well…

Prabhupāda: Soul, soul at the present moment as we take it, that is… Present moment his real consciousness is covered. That we are always discussing.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't see a soul, per se, he sees that a personality or a…

Prabhupāda: What is that personality? As soon as we come to the personality… Entity, that we call soul. Individual entity, adding personality, that is soul.

Śyāmasundara: He would call personality a set of behavior which is organized…

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the personality comes? Because you are a living entity, you have got separate identity, therefore I recognize your personality. So without individual soul, how you can think of personality? There is no question of personality unless there is that individual living entity.

Revatīnandana: Is he saying that the self is an entity that tries to coordinate the conscious and unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Or is the self the interaction of the conscious and unconscious.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that the self strives for an integration and a harmonious balance of the conscious and unconscious dispositions.

Prabhupāda: That, that can be explained in this way. Just like a soul who is now in sleeping state, he can be taught into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So that unconscious, if he says unconsciousness, sleeping state, that is integrated. So in that way you can explain. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

jīv jāgo jīv jāgo gauracānda bole

kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole

"You are living entity, just get up, get up, get up! How long you shall sleep in this way under the lap, of the lap of māyā?" Jīv jāgo.

bhajibo boliyā ese saṁsāra-bhitare

bhuliyā rohile tumi māyā-piśācīra bhare

enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro lāgi

hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi

So this is the process, hari-nāma, gradually bringing the sleeping man to the real consciousness of life. And that is education. (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So actually he is defining the soul but he doesn't call it the soul.

Prabhupāda: He has no idea of the soul. Poor fund of knowledge

Śyāmasundara: He calls it the center.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is missing the point.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the self is very rarely complete or unified. Very rarely do we find someone who is unified, or have balanced their life, integrated their life. So his idea is that everyone must strive to achieve the self, that they must realize the self. This is the purpose of our lives.

Prabhupāda: That we are preaching. (Sanskrit) "Now we are human form of life, you can understand your position." That is our repeated request, repeated request, that don't waste this opportunity.

Revatīnandana: So when he says that the self is rarely completely balanced or integrated, so we say the self is always very stable. The self is always existing, always balanced, unchanging. So he's considering…

Prabhupāda: When he's in influence of māyā, he's imbalanced. Imbalance and ignorance. Not in knowledge. Therefore he's called māyā.

Revatīnandana: The consciousness is…

Prabhupāda: Consciousness is there, consciousness is always there. As far as there is soul, there is consciousness. But this consciousness is colored. Just like generally water is transparent, but if you mix with color, it becomes reddish. Just like rain falls from the sky, it is distilled water, pure water, but as soon as it touches the earth it becomes muddy. Similarly, the soul is pure consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but when it comes in contamination with the three modes of material nature, it becomes a different color. So at that time they fight, "I am Hindu, you are Mussulman," or "You are Christian," "I am (indistinct)" "I am white," "You are black," because he has been contaminated by different colors of the material modes of nature. He is identifying with that colorful position in the body. This is ignorance. This (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So if someone is given knowledge of their unknown self, or their shadow personality, and they integrate that knowledge in their conscious life and to act as a unifying personality…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That man who is giving knowledge, he is called guru.

Śyāmasundara: I see. So this type of knowledge has to be done, he would say, through a psychiatrist or a psychoanalyst.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, somebody has to do it. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. He must approach a guru to discover his…

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he says here, "Potentialities which are hitherto unexploited and which lie covered in him can be brought out by the knowing self and utilized."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our process. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is acting as guru, and He's asking everyone, jīv jāgo jīv jāgo. Therefore the conclusion should be that in order to come to the real position of our life, we must approach a guru, a person who knows what is what.

Śyāmasundara: So that person can see us for what we are, more than we can see ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is a physician, he knows simply by feeling his pulse beating, he can understand what is his position. And he gives medicine according to that. Āyur-vedic system is very nice. One has to learn how this pulse is beating, then immediately diagnosis is there, medicine is given.

Śyāmasundara: These psychologists like Jung, all have different processes for finding out a person's unconscious mind. For instance, interpreting his dreams, or by sometimes they put a picture, they say, "How do you look at this picture? What do you see in this picture?"

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the standard status of the mind. He doesn't know. Even the psychiatrist, he is also not in sane mind. "Physician heal thyself." Because he's identifying himself with this body, so he is also insane. So that treatment will not perfect. How a diseased man can become a physician? Therefore the English word is, "Physician heal thyself."

Śyāmasundara: So this Jung sees a positive aspect of psychology, not just the negative aspect, whereas Freud saw that the goal of psychology was to restrict or reach (indistinct) these powerful, primitive instincts then to mitigate troublesome symptoms, which is a rather pessimistic or negative philosophy. Jung says that man is capable of changing positively into something better by the use of psychology.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why he was making this propaganda unless there is chance that we will be better? And actually we see they are becoming better.

Śyāmasundara: So actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also psychology.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) That is the term of psychology. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, the Kṛṣṇa devotee is the highest, topmost." All, of all psychologists, the person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is the most elevated. Transcendental position. Everyone is within the modes of the material nature, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person is above, transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

Śyāmasundara: In one sense Jung is very optimistic that he sees that everyone has divine and demonic potencies in the (indistinct), but that the divine potencies can be brought out in everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are trying. That we are trying. We are trying to make the demons liberated. Actually there is two positions: the divinity and the demon. There are two classes of men: the demon and the divine. The divine means Kṛṣṇa conscious. And just opposite, he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a demon. That's all. Demon and divine, this is the difference. So long one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is demon.

Śyāmasundara: He says that (indistinct). These tendencies, demonic tendencies, that (indistinct) a personality, Jung sees them often as external beings that have entered into us.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like to become feverish, that is not my natural state. Under certain circumstances, I have become weak (indistinct) fever, but that is not my natural condition. If medicine is given, the fever is gone. Then I am (indistinct), and that is called mukti. Mukti, liberation, means to get out of this feverish condition. That's all. (indistinct) mukta, in Sanskrit it is called. Roga is not natural. It comes, disease comes. So whatever disease… Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9], that all these four things are disease, externally. Otherwise the living entity has no birth, no death, no disease, no illness. Nitya sasta (Sanskrit). How they're getting older? These are externalities. People are so ignorant that they don't know how to drive away these external (indistinct) conditions. They think it is natural, "Let me suffer." That is their ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: One of Jung's favorite techniques for improving a person's personality is to force that person to bring up the demonic force in himself and treat it as another person. If the demon within me is not really me, it's another personality which causes…

Prabhupāda: That is not very important, how one becomes affected by some disease. But when the disease is there, the treatment must be there. That is natural. Instead of tracing out the history, what is the use? That the disease is there, make treatment and be cured, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: But this demon that haunts me, that is another personality besides my real personality.

Prabhupāda: That is not a… Personality, I am. Just like delirium, the same personality, but he's talking nonsense in delirium. If you remove the delirium condition, then he becomes again the original person. Delirium is not person.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: When we say that a person is ghostly haunted, does that mean there is another personality which is inhabiting his…

Prabhupāda: Influencing.

Śyāmasundara: Influencing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So that that…

Prabhupāda: Just like a man is hypnotized. Another man is hypnotizing him.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So that other personality, the foreign personality, can be… (end)

SARTRE.SYA

Jean-Paul Sartre

Śyāmasundara: Today's philosopher is called Jean-Paul Sartre. He is a contemporary French philosopher, and he is the father of this existentialism philosophy, which deals with the fundamental problem of dualism-that is, subject and object. He calls the object, the things of this world, he calls them "beings" because they exist, and he calls the subject, or the consciousness, individual consciousness, "nothingness," "no-thingness." This is a thing, but the individual entity is no thing, because it is constantly changing.

Prabhupāda: Why it is not thing?

Śyāmasundara: Because the structure is not determinant. It is always changing. On both sides there is nothing.

Prabhupāda: Changing is the mind, not the person. Changing positions is of the mind. So he is identifying the person with the mind; therefore he is not a perfect philosopher.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this objective being, like these objects, he calls it "being in itself," and only these concrete phenomena are real. But he says these concrete phenomena are more than their phenomenal appearances. Just like this thing is more than what it appears to be, but it is no more than the sum total of all its appearances. In other words, this thing may appear like this, but it is more than this; it is all of its possible appearances, from the time it was clay, to the time the paint was applied, different things, in all its appearances, that is the reality of this thing. It is not just this thing; it is all of its appearances. But that is all. There is nothing more than that. It doesn't have any reality beyond its phenomenal appearances.

Prabhupāda: From where the material came, first of all? Beyond the material, the source of material?

Śyāmasundara: He says that "Material in itself is nonconscious, inert, fixed, opaque, uncreated, devoid of potency, lacking becoming, and without any reason for existing; therefore it is superfluous." In other words, existence doesn't have any meaning.

Prabhupāda: So what is the substance?

Śyāmasundara: Well, there is no meaning to anything. It's just here. There is no tracing out. It's not created; it's just here.

Prabhupāda: This kind of philosophy is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā as asuric philosophy, demonic philosophy, because the demons, they do not believe in any superior cause. They everything take as accidental. Just like a man and woman unite accidentally and a child is born. It is like that. There is no actually purpose. The Śaṅkara philosophy, atheistic Śaṅkara philosophy is also like that. Prakṛti and puruṣa meets. All of a sudden there is lust and they meet, and there is some product; otherwise there is no other cause. This sort of theory is called asuric.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these things have no reason for existing. There is no purpose.

Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Everything has its purpose. Without purpose, nothing is created. And there is a supreme cause. So they have no brain to go farther. That is their defect. So what they superficially see, they take it. They do not find out the farther cause. That is less intelligent. Many modern scientists also say that simply explain "It is nature, nature." But we do not believe in such theory. We understand that the background of nature is God. Nature is not independent. Nature is phenomena; but the noumena is God, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the phenomena and the noumena are the same. Phenomena are noumena. There is no separation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Same in this sense: just like the sun and the sunshine is the same. The sunshine is light and the sun is also light. The sun is hot and sunshine is also hot. But still, you cannot say that the sunshine and the sun are the same. Therefore Lord Caitanya's philosophy, simultaneously one and different, that is perfect. He is taking only the oneness, but there is still difference. Just like the fire and the heat. You cannot separate heat from fire, but still heat is not fire. That is perfect knowledge. So therefore heat is simultaneously one and different from fire. That is perfect. You are getting heat, but that does not mean that you are touching the fire. So this is perfect theory. One and different, both.

Śyāmasundara: He says that opposite to this objective being is the subjective individual, which he calls "being for itself." And he says that the nature of this subjective individual is that it is incomplete, it has potency, but the structure is indeterminant. There is no mass or no density. These things all have density and mass-they are heavy, gross-but the "being for itself," or the subjective individual, has no mass or density.

Prabhupāda: This is like the sense and sense objects. Just like we have got the senses smelling. This is concrete. But the smell is not concrete.

Śyāmasundara: Subtle.

Prabhupāda: Subtle in this sense, that I cannot… Because we are so materialistic that our senses cannot perceive anything which is not concrete. But the highest philosophy, Vedic philosophy, the sense of smelling and the sense object, smell, simultaneously created. Unless there is smell, the nose has no value. Therefore the sense and the sense object, they are simultaneously created. Tan-mātrā. In Sanskrit word it is called tan-mātrā. Just like eyes and beauty, simultaneously. If there is no beauty, then there is no value of eyes. If there is no music, the ear has no value. If there is no soft thing, the touch has no value. Similarly, everything is created-the sense and the sense object and the controller of the senses-and that is… (guests come in) Aiye, please come in. [break]

Śyāmasundara: Last time we didn't quite finish the last philosopher we're going to do in the modern times, namely Jean-Paul Sartre, a French philosopher. He is living now. His philosophy briefly is called existentialism. And last time we…

Prabhupāda: What does it actually mean, "existential"?

Śyāmasundara: It means that existence is prior to essence. In other words, the fact that I am first of all existing, living here, is the important thing, and that I determine what I am, my essence, as I unfold my life. Existence is the most important thing, prior to essence, what I am, my nature.

Prabhupāda: What is the essence and what is existence?

Śyāmasundara: Well, according to Sartre, existence… All I know when I am analyzing what I am, all I know is that I exist.

Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that.

Śyāmasundara: "I am." This is the first fact. What I am more than that is determined as I live my life, as I grow older…

Prabhupāda: That is no standard of why living. The dog is living. He also exists. The cat is living. He also exists. And man is also living, exists. So different types of living beings are existing in different consciousness. So what is the standard consciousness?

Śyāmasundara: There is no standard. He says that man's essence is nothingness or no-thingness. There is no-thingness about me. I am always changing. There is nothing determinant about my subjectivity.

Prabhupāda: If you are changing, I am changing, then the changing is existence. But I am different from that existence because I am changing. I am changing. Suppose I have just now changed my dress. So I am the same. Actually, I am existing the same, but I am changing different dress or different body. So this changing is not very important because it will be changed. I am important. I am changing.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there are two types of being. There is "being in itself," like this table, which is solid, massive, and then he's saying it doesn't have…, it has a phenomenal…

Prabhupāda: So that we say-the one is matter, another is spirit.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says "being in itself" and "being for itself." "Being for itself" means the living entity, because by choosing things he does things for himself; he makes decisions and creates things for himself.

Prabhupāda: That we admit. Therefore, the living being who decides to change or to accept something, he is important. Actually, he is existing, whereas the bodily changes or circumstantial changes, that is temporary. But the person who is changing, he is eternal.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because a man or a living entity has no "thingness," no solid mass, he is always changing one thing to another.

Prabhupāda: Solid… We should not be misled simply by a solid mass. The principle which is changing, it may not be a very big solid mass, but it is the active principle which is changing. It doesn't matter it is not like a big hill or mountain, but that is the active principle which is changing.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this no-thingness, nothingness…

Prabhupāda: This is not nothing. This is substance. He cannot say nothingness. He has no eyes to see. The principle which is changing, that is important. He cannot say it is nothing.

Śyāmasundara: But it doesn't have qualities of being a thing, of mass…

Prabhupāda: No. The idea… Actually he has the quality of becoming massive. The same thing we can… Just like the active principle which develops the body within the womb. He may not accept it as soul or something, but without that active principle, simply cohabit of the male and female and combination of secretion does not develop the body. The active principle must be there. So as soon as the active principle is there, the combination of male and female secretion acts, and it develops into body, mass body. You can develop into an ant or you can develop into a big hill. That is the difference. Just like a seed, a small seed, that is active principle. So from that seed a big tree develops. So this existence of the big tree depends on that small seed. That is the active principle. Why it is nothing? That is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Because it's one thing now, and then it will change.

Prabhupāda: It will change. That's all right. I am here, I may be next moment down. But I am the same, either here or down, and therefore I am important, and the active principle is important. The changing existence has no importance. At one time the external feature of the active principle may be a mountain, and next, the external feature of the active principle may be a small ant, but the active principle which is becoming sometimes mountain life and the ant life, that is important.

Śyāmasundara: So he is seeing the external features and he is saying…

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is imperfect. He has no perfect vision. His philosophy is not very sound. He can be classified, according to Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ: one who gives importance to the external features; one who has no eyes to see the internal potency.

Śyāmasundara: So because the living entity is so much changing that he doesn't have any one thingness, therefore, he says the living entity is nothingness.

Prabhupāda: No. He has his identity, but in the present circumstances, because he is conditioned by the matter, therefore he is changing, and when he becomes free from the condition, he will have no change.

Śyāmasundara: Is he in fact a thing?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. Otherwise how it is changing? Unless we have got some basic principle, how we can account for the change, on which platform the change is taking place?

Śyāmasundara: So the nature of a living being is that he is actually a thing.

Prabhupāda: He is the actual thing. The changing feature is not actual, because it is changing. But the principle on which the change is taking place, he is actual fact, so he cannot be nothing. These imperfect philosophers, they have no eyes to see. They have no eyes to see, and they are not very intelligent; therefore they conclude like that.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the structure of man's essence, his consciousness, is freedom. He is continually free to change as he chooses.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say freedom, it is freedom of some living being. Matter has no freedom. So as soon as you speak of freedom, that freedom must be a living being. A huge mountain, dead mountain, or any dead body, it has no freedom. It is lying down. You keep it with some chemical process and the body will remain lying down, just like the Egyptian mummies, there are so many. So it has lost its freedom because the active principle is not there. As soon as you say of freedom, the freedom is only applicable to a living being, not to the matter. Matter has no freedom.

Śyāmasundara: He says that matter is something and that the living being is nothing.

Prabhupāda: No. That is his nonsense. He has no perfect knowledge. If matter is something and the basic principle on which the matter stands, it is nothing, that is the most imperfect statement. These are all nonsense philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we are condemned to be free.

Prabhupāda: Who has condemned you? (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He denies the existence of God.

Prabhupāda: Then who has condemned you? As soon as you say you are condemned, there must be somebody who has condemned you.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's an accident.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. By accident somebody is condemned and somebody is blessed. This is all nonsense. By accident somebody is put into jail and by accident somebody is hanged? Is there any experience like that? That is a judgment. When a man is condemned, that means it is done by some living judgment. So how is this accident? These are all imperfect knowledge, misleading. There is nothing an accident.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all living entities are condemned to be free, everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we can admit. Anyone who is in this material world, he is condemned. But the next question will be, if one is condemned, then he can be blessed also. The other side of condemnation is blessing. So what is the blessing side? Has he got any knowledge of the blessing side? Then he is imperfect. As soon as you say condemned, there must be blessing. So he does not know what is the blessing side. That he takes as nothing. That is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot escape this situation of freedom, that somehow or other we are therefore responsible for our activities. We cannot escape the situation of being free. Everyone is free to determine what is his future.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak of accident? If you are irresponsible, then why do you say accident? The two things cannot go. If he was responsible, he must be responsible to something else, who is condemning you or blessing you. How it can be accident? These are contradictions.

Śyāmasundara: This situation that we find ourselves in, choosing our future, everyone has to choose his future, what is the next step…

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say accident? First of all you withdraw the word accident, then you can talk all this.

Śyāmasundara: There are certain events that we cannot control. They simply happen to us.

Prabhupāda: Cannot control, that can be accepted. But it is supposed that we have controlling power. Nothing is accident. Sometimes, when you are miscontrolling, that is accident. But actually that is not accident; that is your miscontrol, not accident. The reason is miscontrol.

Śyāmasundara: Ah, miscontrol.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are responsible, as soon as you act irresponsibly something happens which you take as accident. It is miscontrol. It is not accident. The same thing, just like I am shaving with control, and as soon as I am inattentive, it may cut my cheek. But it is not accident. It is due to my inattention. Nothing is accident. I am responsible for shaving, but as soon as I become inattentive, my cheek is cut. That is not accident. That is due to my inattention. So there is nothing like accident.

Śyāmasundara: Even if I open the front door and something hits me on the head, falling on the head.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Inattention. We should be always very attentive. Therefore the military laws, first they say, "Attention!" As soon as there is no attention, you meet with so many so-called accidents.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man's nature is an indefinite state of freedom. There is no definite nature that a man has, that it is continually created as he…

Prabhupāda: That means he is eternal. He has to accept it that he is eternal.

Śyāmasundara: Because he has no definite nature?

Prabhupāda: No. Indefinite. What is that indefinite?

Śyāmasundara: That means he is constantly changing. Just like tomorrow my body will be slightly different, my mind may change, I may decide…

Prabhupāda: No. Change, but that changing is taking place under certain regulations, not that by accident. Just like if I become educated, then I get a change in my position, a very nice post, but this is not accident. Because I am educated, I am getting a nice post. And because I am not educated, so I am getting another post.

Śyāmasundara: Just like moods. For instance, today I may be happy, tomorrow I may be unhappy. So I'm not definite. There is no definite nature that I have.

Prabhupāda: That can be admitted to some extent, that it has not cause. Just like if you are put into the sea, so there you have no control and you are moving according to the waves. That means you have controlling power, but you are put in a certain condition where you lose your controlling power. So it is to be admitted that you are in an awkward position; therefore you cannot ascertain what change is going to take place next. That means you are not in a good situation. Just like a man, when he is on the land, he has got control. If a car is coming, he can take care. He can save from the accident. But when he is put into the ocean, the waves are floating him. So it is circumstantial, not accidental.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, circumstantial but not accidental.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you put yourself in better circumstances, then this uncontrolling feature will not be there. He cannot control himself. Everything is accident for him, because he is mad. But if he is cured to a sane man, there is no question of accident.

Śyāmasundara: Supposing today I am happy and my tomorrow is completely within my hands to choose.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are under different conditions. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. You have put yourself under the control of material nature; therefore, according to the modes of the material nature, your position is there. You cannot… When you shall be happy or unhappy, you cannot control.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that we have the freedom to control it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have the freedom, but your freedom is now choked up, being conditioned. Just like you have freedom to move, but if you are thrown into the ocean, your freedom is choked up. Therefore your duty is how to get yourself released from the condition where your freedom is choked up.

Śyāmasundara: Ah, I see. This is one reason why he says that we are nothing, because…

Prabhupāda: Because he cannot explain, he has no such knowledge; therefore it is very easy to say nothing.

Śyāmasundara: Because today we are one thing, tomorrow we are another thing. So therefore we are nothing.

Prabhupāda: Nothing, of course, nothing in this sense, that you are under the full control of a superior power, carried away by the waves. The ocean is a superior power, and if you put yourself under the superior power, you are carried away by the waves. Therefore you say "I am nothing." But you are something. Your something will be very much exhibited when you are put on the land. So this nothingness conclusion is out of despair.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's his whole philosophy.

Prabhupāda: It is out of despair. So that is not intelligence. That is not intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: Intelligence doesn't come from despair.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: He says that a man chooses himself. He creates his own nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. That we admit. He creates his nature. So now you have created your nature as nothing, but you can create your nature as something. But a poor fund of knowledge cannot do that. Therefore he has to take lessons from a higher personality. Before philosophizing, he should have taken some lessons from persons who are in the knowledge. That is the Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to learn that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master.

Śyāmasundara: He says that our essence, or our nature, is always in the making. It is continually becoming…

Prabhupāda: It is not in the making. It is changing. He is thinking it is making. But in the sense making, it can be taken, when he comes to his senses, that "I don't want change. Why the change is taking place?" So when this inquiry comes to him, and if he inquires, "What is the reason of this changing although I do not want?" that is the point where making takes place.

Śyāmasundara: Then he is able to really mold his nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he is dismissing. Being confused and disappointed, he is dismissing the whole case, that "There is nothing. Make it zero." That is poor fund of knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: He says that as we make our life continually, but it all ends at death. Everything is finished.

Prabhupāda: Death means change, another body. But the active principle on which the body is standing, he does not die. The changing is accepted as death, changing. Just like I am in this apartment; I change this apartment, I go three miles away. So that does not mean I am dead. Similarly, the active principle which is changing when he takes another, because he cannot see where he has gone, we say it is death. But a sane man who knows that "Although I cannot see him, he must have taken another apartment…" That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says, "Once I have the thought that I am free, and that my choices will cause changes in the world, therefore I become overwhelmed with the responsibility, and I become full of anguish and anxiety."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: This, he says, is the modern man's condition of existence, that he is overwhelmed with the anxiety of having to choose.

Prabhupāda: That means he is in an awkward position. He wants to be in a peaceful position, but he does not know how to get that position. So because he does not know, that does not mean that there is no peaceful position. Suppose some… It is something like that, that a man in the market, he has been cheated simply by counterfeit currency. He is disappointed that there is no real money. But actually that is not a fact. The government is there, and the currency is there, the real currency.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that once I understand that whatever I choose, I have to be responsible for that, then I become full of anxiety because I am always thinking I have to choose right in order to enjoy something. If I choose wrongly, I must suffer. I am responsible both ways. So he says this feeling of responsibility makes me always dreading and anxious about the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The responsibility is there, certainly, but why you do not take the responsibility of transferring yourself in a safety place where you will have no anxiety? It may be you do not know where is a safety place. But why don't you ask somebody who knows it? Why you are becoming disappointed? As you say that we have got responsibility, why, as a responsible man, so search out somebody who can say you about the safety place where there is no anxiety. We can give. That is called Vaikuṇṭha: no anxiety. Vaikuṇṭha means no anxiety. There is a place.

Śyāmasundara: His claim is that we are tossed into the world and we are abandoned by God; that God is dead.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Abandoned by God does not mean God is dead. You are condemned, that we have admitted, so your condemnation does not mean God is also condemned. God is always, who has condemned you, He is always safe. So He cannot be dead.

Śyāmasundara: He says because we have been abandoned by God, therefore we must rely on ourselves alone.

Prabhupāda: No. Abandoned by God-why? God is not partial, that He is accepting somebody and abandoning somebody. You have done something for which you are abandoned. So if you rectify your position, you will be accepted again. (aside as someone enters:) Yes?

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because we have to choose for ourselves, everything is in our hands. That for instance we can become in a situation either a coward or a hero. This is in our hands, some situation that we must confront.

Prabhupāda: Then what you can do? If you say that you are being tossed by some superior power, how you can become a hero? If you become a hero, then you will be more kicked, because you are under superior power. Therefore a man who is culprit, he is under police custody, so if he becomes hero he will be simply beaten and punished, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: I remember one example he gave was that supposing there is wartime, and you are called upon to go to war. He said it wouldn't matter if you went or didn't go. If you went, then you must choose to be a hero; you must fight very bravely, and not a coward. But if you don't go, then you must choose to be a hero to resist the war. You must choose to be a hero resisting the war. One way or the other, you have to choose to be a hero and not a coward.

Prabhupāda: Coward… You are neither coward nor hero. You are simply an instrument. You are… Just like a child plays with a doll. A doll is placed sometimes on this side, that side, sometimes so, sometimes on his breast. So you are just like a doll. You can neither become hero nor become coward. You are completely under the control of somebody who is superior.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose someone is attacking you, ready to kill you. You have the power to choose whether to be a hero and defend or whether to run.

Prabhupāda: It is not hero to defend. It is a natural action. Even a dog can become hero when he is attacked by somebody. Even an ant can become hero. One ant is walking on the table, so if you check his way, he also becomes hero. So there is no use of becoming hero like that. That heroism and cowardice are the same. It is simply mental concoction. Because after, all you are under the control of somebody. He can do as he likes with you. So what is the use of your becoming hero or coward?

Śyāmasundara: Supposing someone else is in danger and you go and rescue them. Isn't that being a hero? Or you decide not to and you go away.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot rescue. You rescue… Just like one man is drowning, and you become hero and jump over the water and take out his shirt and coat, and you come on the shore that "I've saved him." (laughter) This is not saving him. Similarly, you have no eyes to see whom to save. You are simply seeing the dress. So saving the dress, that is not heroism, neither it is protection.

Śyāmasundara: So the real heroes are the devotees, who save actually.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that in any situation you have to be the hero. If you're a businessman you have to valiantly do your business and make a good business, and then you are a hero.

Prabhupāda: So a real hero, one can be, when he is fully empowered or he is fully protected. So that hero is a devotee, who is fully protected by Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes when they portray heroes in different ways…

Prabhupāda: That kind of hero you find in the insect also, that very heroically following on the path: "Put, put, put, put." That is foolishness.

Śyāmasundara: It always appears that the hero is protected, that nothing can stop him. He is so heroic nothing can stop him.

Prabhupāda: That heroism is just like insect heroism. There is blazing fire, and all kinds of ants and insects are falling in. So what is the use of such heroism? He has no sound knowledge. He is talking speculation. [break]

(next meeting)

Śyāmasundara: Yesterday we were discussing Jean-Paul Sartre. His point was that man finds himself responsible for his own actions-not only individually, but he finds that the world is in his own choosing so that he has a social responsibility as well.

Prabhupāda: As soon as we speak of responsibility, there is no question of chance. We cannot say sometimes by chance, sometimes by responsi… Where is the question of chance, if there is responsibility?

Śyāmasundara: He says that by making decisions and choosing this or that, that one becomes responsible for his actions. But ultimately it doesn't really matter what he chooses. The choosing is the important thing.

Prabhupāda: That is whimsical. And still he is responsible.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Whatever I choose, I must be responsible for it. But it doesn't matter so much what…

Prabhupāda: But if the beginning is irresponsibility, then where is the question of responsibility? This is nonsense philosophy. If the beginning is irresponsibility… Just like there is a story, some thieves stolen some gold, and there were many, four, five thieves, so they were dividing the stolen property, and one them said, "Now let us divide it honestly." (laughter) The whole thing is stolen property, and they are speaking of honesty. Just like you Americans, you came from Europe and other countries, and you have stolen the property. Now you make immigration, "You cannot come, you cannot come." It is like this philosophy. The whole thing is stolen property, and they are talking of honesty; they are citing scripture. So where is the responsibility, if the beginning is irresponsibility, chance?

Śyāmasundara: One of his examples, I remember, is there is a war, so I have to choose whether to fight in the war for my country or resist the war as unethical. His idea is it doesn't matter. Whatever you choose, you must be a hero or do it very responsibly, either resist war or fight in war. But it doesn't matter ultimately which side you choose.

Prabhupāda: That means if you go to hell you must go like a hero.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Just like one man was fighting with another man, and he could not fight, he was going away, going away. The other man challenged, "Why are you going away?" So, "Why not shall I go away? Am I afraid of you? Why should I not go away? Am I afraid of you?" He is going away, he is defeated, still he said that "Why shall I not go? Am I afraid of you?" So this is childish philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because I have freedom to choose, that makes me susceptible to bad faith, to a condition which he calls bad faith, irresponsibility.

Prabhupāda: You have freedom of choice-that's nice-but if you do not make your choice nicely, then you have to suffer. That is responsibility.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because we have freedom, this makes us tend to be irresponsible, to shy away from taking responsibility.

Prabhupāda: No. Responsibility is there, and still freedom is there. Just like ordinarily, in our dealing, out of responsibility the direction is "Stick to the right." Or there is a red light, "Stop." So if I do not care about the red light, then I become criminal. That is responsibility. You have responsibility, but at the same time you have got the discrimination. Without discrimination there cannot be any responsibility. So responsibility is not blind. That means you should discriminate. You should know what is right and wrong. That is responsibility. If we do wrongly, then we will have to suffer. That is responsibility.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But his idea is that because we are free, we tend to avoid responsibility.

Prabhupāda: That is freedom, that you can make your choice between right and wrong. That is freedom. Freedom does not mean you are dull.

Śyāmasundara: But what if you avoid even choosing right or wrong, you simply drift without any decision of right or wrong?

Prabhupāda: No. That is irresponsibility.

Śyāmasundara: That's what he is saying, that because we are free, we are susceptible.

Prabhupāda: We are free means you have to make your choice between right and wrong. That is freedom.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But his idea is that because we are free, sometimes we neglect to even choose between right and wrong.

Prabhupāda: That is wrong decision. Then you should suffer. That is responsibility. Why you have done wrong?

Devotee: That is choice.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: He is not recognizing that that is a choice. You could not choose that way unless you had this freedom.

Śyāmasundara: No. It's not like that. Supposing there is a war, a country goes to war. There is the choice whether to say, to choose whether it is right or wrong, but I avoid the choice altogether. I don't enter into it. Apathetic.

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot avoid the choice. At the present age there is democratic government. When we agree to fight with another, that means you have got your assent. Why should you not fight?

Śyāmasundara: I haven't made this very clear, but because we have freedom, we become susceptible to bad faith. Bad faith means that we avoid making any decisions at all, good or bad. We simply drift. He calls it drift. We go day to day without entering and becoming involved with any responsible decision-making.

Prabhupāda: That drift means that is decision. Yes. That is decision. When you drift, that is decision.

Śyāmasundara: People, especially these days, they want to avoid making any kind of decisions, especially hippies.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you must take others' decisions, superiors' decisions.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that this condition…

Prabhupāda: Just like a child cannot make any decision. He should take decision from the parents. That is the position.

Śyāmasundara: Just like these hippies, whenever they wake up, they wake up; whenever they want food, they eat. Like that.

Prabhupāda: So who cares for them? They are reject.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says this is the condition of…

Prabhupāda: Urchins. No. This is the condition of the hippies, not for a gentleman.

Śyāmasundara: He says that because we are free, that we are susceptible to this condition. That's all. But he says that this condition…

Prabhupāda: Free means to make right or wrong decision. That is free. Freedom does not mean dullness or passive.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But because we are free we become susceptible to being dull.

Prabhupāda: Just like a dog. A dog is free. He can go to the right or the wrong side, and nobody cares for it. That is for the dog. But if a human being, if he decides instead of going to the right, to the left, then he is criminal, because he has got responsibility. So either you take dog's philosophy or man's philosophy. Dog's philosophy, he has no decision. He is an animal. He can go this side or that side. But we cannot do that. So whether he is man or dog. If he is a man, he must decide right and wrong. He is responsible. That is a man.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this condition of bad faith must be replaced by solid choosing and faith in our choosing. For instance, if one chooses a certain path of action, that he must have faith that by carrying out this action valiantly, heroically, that he will be doing the right thing.

Prabhupāda: But if his decision is wrong, then what is the use of such heroism?

Śyāmasundara: He says there's no such scale of right and wrong. There is no absolute right and wrong, that everything depends upon how…

Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of responsibility if there is no right and wrong?

Śyāmasundara: Whatever I do, I must do it…

Prabhupāda: Whimsically. Whimsically. Whatever you do, you do it whimsically. Does he mean to say like that?

Śyāmasundara: No. Whatever you do, you do courageously.

Prabhupāda: Courageously… Just like the example I gave, the insect goes very courageously into the fire. Is that a very nice decision, to go forward courageously into the fire? He'll go courageously.

Śyāmasundara: He has another definition of this bad faith, that bad faith means treating oneself as an object instead of a person; that I feel myself like a thing, or an object, instead of a person. This a bad faith.

Prabhupāda: Bad faith means?

Śyāmasundara: Treating myself as an object instead of a person.

Prabhupāda: But you are a person. How can you become an object?

Śyāmasundara: Because we are susceptible to bad faith, that this condition exists in the world, people are treating each other as objects-"He is black," "He is white," "He is old," "He is rich"-objects instead of persons. This called bad faith, and he wants to rectify that condition.

Prabhupāda: Then what is good faith? That is also object?

Śyāmasundara: Good faith is dealing with someone else genuinely as a person, despite whatever that person is doing. That doesn't matter so much, what he is doing, but how he is doing it.

Prabhupāda: You have not been clear. What is it?

Śyāmasundara: A person is doing something, it doesn't matter so much what he is doing but how he is doing it, that he is doing it genuinely, with full integrity.

Prabhupāda: Then if a man is stealing, and he is doing it very scientifically, is that all right?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The existentialists…

Prabhupāda: There are many, many thieves, they know how to go into the bank treasury scientifically. Is that all right?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He is an existential hero, the good thief or the good killer.

Prabhupāda: Then the same hero, just like the insect hero. The same hero. The insect hero very boldly goes to the fire. (laughter) The same. He is no better than an insect, without any knowledge or discrimination.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we treat ourselves as things, as objects, because we are afraid to accept ourselves for being such unsavory characters. In other words, if I look at myself, I do not like what I see, because I am so full of sinful activity, I am such an unsavory character, so therefore I objectify myself. I begin to think that "I am an engineer," "I am a scientist," "I am this," "I am that," so many designations, but I don't see myself as a person because I don't like to see myself.

Prabhupāda: What does he say about this?

Śyāmasundara: So he says that existential psychoanalysis is required. Existential psychoanalysis, he calls it.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he pose himself as a philosopher? The same thing-as engineer, as scientist.

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say "I am a philosopher."

Prabhupāda: Then what does he say?

Śyāmasundara: Other people are saying he is a philosopher.

Prabhupāda: Other… We don't say he's a philosopher. He says. He wants to pose himself as a philosopher; therefore he is talking all this nonsense. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: This existential psychoanalysis is supposed to get down to the root of a man's existence.

Prabhupāda: Has he seen that? Has he gone up to there?

Śyāmasundara: The level that he takes it to is that man is basically a "being for himself."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, that individuality.

Śyāmasundara: And that his decision-making power, his freedom to make decisions, is his real essence, his real nature.

Prabhupāda: So he agrees also at the same time, responsibility.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that means he must have the power to make decisions, right and wrong. That is responsible.

Śyāmasundara: The main thing, though, is that he must abide by his decision. Whatever he chooses, that he must live it.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. If I decide to steal, it is better to avoid it. Not that because I have to decided to steal, I must do it just like a hero and then go to prison.

Śyāmasundara: For Sartre there is no absolute right and wrong. Some of his main heroes are great thieves and debauchers, like there's one… What is his name?

Prabhupāda: Alexander. Alexander and the robber. There is a story that a robber was arrested by Alexander and there was talk between Alexander and the robber: "You proved that you are big robber, that's all. Why you are going to punish me?" And he was released: "Yes. I'm a big robber. I have no difference between you and me."

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we can remedy the whole situation of bad faith and being an unsavory character and treating myself as an object instead of a person by choosing for myself the person I ought to become.

Prabhupāda: Ideal person.

Śyāmasundara: An ideal person. And become that ideal person.

Prabhupāda: So what is the definition of that ideal person?

Śyāmasundara: Well, in some of his books it would be the very heroic type person who sees things as they are.

Prabhupāda: A big robber is also heroic.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Many of his heroes are robbers and…

Prabhupāda: So these robbers are ideal persons? Big, big thieves.

Śyāmasundara: In that they portray an integrity, self-integrity.

Prabhupāda: Then a tiger is also…

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why do you fight with the tiger? Why you are afraid of tiger?

Śyāmasundara: His idea of a hero would be someone who meets the tiger face-to-face and courageously deals with him instead of running away. Whenever the challenge in life is there, the hero is the one who takes it up.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. It may be hero or not hero, it doesn't matter. If somebody comes to attack me, I try to fight with him, trying to save me. So I may not be successful, but that is my natural instinct. So everyone is hero.

Śyāmasundara: No. If a person is free of this bad faith, this…

Prabhupāda: What is bad faith and what is good faith, according to him?

Śyāmasundara: Bad faith is that I avoid decision making. I am avoiding decisions. Avoiding making decisions is bad faith.

Prabhupāda: Avoiding making decisions?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And treating other people as objects. Good faith is to make decisions courageously and follow them out, whatever those decisions are.

Prabhupāda: So who makes the decisions?

Śyāmasundara: I make the decisions.

Prabhupāda: So if your decision is wrong?

Śyāmasundara: There's no question of right or wrong in that case.

Prabhupāda: Whatever decision I make, that is final, absolute?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Then the same philosophy comes with the insect's decision. Absolute decision, even if it is wrong, it's all right. That is seen in lower animals also.

Śyāmasundara: One of Sartre's counterparts, one of his colleagues, Albert Camus, he also wrote about this philosophy, and himself he typifies this type of person. He simply died in an automobile accident by driving 130 or -40 miles an hour on a small road.

Prabhupāda: That is insects' philosophy, that's all. This is "I have my decision to run hundred miles an hour, not caring for others." So this is exactly like the insects.

Śyāmasundara: And they say I'm responsible for my actions, but it's a very irresponsible position because it doesn't take into consideration other people, or supposing he would have killed other people too.

Prabhupāda: So that is animal decision. That is not human decision. Human decision that there is signboard, "Speed Limit 35." If he doesn't care, he is not a human being, he is animal. A human being, he will take care, "Why shall I drive 100?"

Śyāmasundara: This philosophy gives rise to so much freedom.

Prabhupāda: This philosophy has given rise to these hippies.

Śyāmasundara: Hippies, yes.

Prabhupāda: So they are without any responsibility. Whatever he likes, he can do. So that is animal. There is no question of human civilization or human beings.

Śyāmasundara: He has an optimistic side to his philosophy in that he says the fate of the world depends upon man's decision. Obviously, if men decide to do things properly, the world would be a better place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We agree with that. We are trying to do that by introducing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make the world Vaikuṇṭha. That is our philosophy. Anyone can come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become happy. But that is not a blind decision. We take decision from higher authority; therefore it is perfect. We are taking decision from the ācārya, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: There is also a pessimistic side to his philosophy in that he says that man is a useless passion, mainly striving in the universe without purpose.

Prabhupāda: That he is, not us. He is that. His is… What is that? Useless?

Śyāmasundara: Useless passion.

Prabhupāda: So he is that. Useless passion… No sane man is useless passion. A sane man is guided by superior. That is Vedic civilization. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One must approach a bona fide spiritual master to guide him. Then he is not useless; then he is full.

Śyāmasundara: But because he doesn't see any purpose in the universe, then he thinks that…

Prabhupāda: That is his blindness. He has no sufficient knowledge; he has no sufficient seeing power. There is a plan. That is stated in the Sixteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, asatyam apratiṣṭham, that the word is there is no truth, there is no creator. These are the decisions of the demons. We don't say. We say janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] the Supreme. Not that everything that we want to try to understand is the truth. That is our philosophy. This philosophy is demon philosophy-there is no plan, there is no truth, everything is happening accidentally. This is demon's philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Because he doesn't see any purpose, that he sees all of our efforts…

Prabhupāda: There is purpose, but because he is foolish, therefore he does not see anything as purpose. There is purpose. Just if like I am hungry, this philosopher says accidentally I am hungry, I eat something. No. I am hungry when there is purpose. My bodily limbs are exhausted, they require energy, so therefore I am hungry, I must take some food. The foodstuff will be converted into energy. There is a plan. It is not blank. Everything is going on by plan. The sun is rising under some plan. The moon is rising under some plan. Seasonal changes under plan. Everything is plan. But those demons, they cannot see. They say, "No, there is no plan here."

Śyāmasundara: They see all activity as in vain. All activity is a useless struggle, a vain struggle.

Prabhupāda: That is for him. Because he is confused and without any direction, he thinks like that.

Śyāmasundara: So his emphasis is not on the activity itself-because it's all vain-but how you do it.

Prabhupāda: We don't say how it is all vain. That I have already explained: everything has got a plan. Just like we are moving this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is a plan. There is an objective. (indistinct) vainly we are doing that. Nothing is done in that we or you or anyone. There must be some plan. There is a plan. That plan may be right or wrong-there is a plan.

Śyāmasundara: This is actually the major issue with people, especially today, that is there really any purpose to all my work, or anyone's work, or for anyone's activity? Is there any ultimate meaning or purpose to it?

Prabhupāda: It's quite clear. Just like if you make a decision to do something criminal, the plan is already there-you will be arrested and punished. If you make a choice that "I must do it. This is my decision. I must kill that person," you can do that, but there is already a plan that you will be hanged. That is less intelligent. They are not intelligent.

Śyāmasundara: They say that man is nothingness.

Prabhupāda: Why is nothingness? If he is nothingness, why is he speaking so much nonsense?

Śyāmasundara: You said yesterday it was a philosophy of despair.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That's what they also say.

Prabhupāda: So we are not desperate. We are not followers of despair philosophy. We are hopeful philosophy. We are going back to home, back to Godhead…

Śyāmasundara: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: …to live eternally blissful life.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we are alone in the world but we can be a "being for others."

Prabhupāda: Why he was alone? Why he would become being for others? He remained alone; let them remain alone.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we require other people for our self-realization, if we want to understand who I am.

Prabhupāda: That means he requires a guru.

Śyāmasundara: That is what he means.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes he means that it is blind, there is no end, there is no plan, again he wants to have a guru?

Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say guru, but he says other people.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is also another man.

Śyāmasundara: We interact with other people in order to understand ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So why not the best man-guru? If we require other men to understand, then why not take the best man?

Śyāmasundara: He says because there are other people, that in the presence of others we feel ashamed.

Prabhupāda: No. There are many other people, many people, but we have to take help from others, and I must take help from the best man, who knows things.

Śyāmasundara: He has observed that if I am acting in bad faith, that I will be ashamed in the presence of others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you should take advice from a man who can give you right direction, so at the end you may not be ashamed; you may be glorious. That is the injunction of the Vedas: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to be conversant with that science, transcendental science, one must approach a bona fide guru.

Śyāmasundara: His being ashamed before others…

Prabhupāda: Yes. You will be ashamed. If you are not guided by a superior man, you'll be ashamed. But if you are guided by a proper man you won't be ashamed; you'll be glorious.

Śyāmasundara: He says that if a man considers himself as an object, he is afraid to look inside himself, then he will also consider other people as objects. And that is the cause of the basic sickness of the world, that we treat each other as objects instead as persons.

Prabhupāda: That is a wrong conception. Everybody is a person.

Śyāmasundara: What is your remedy for seeing everyone as persons?

Prabhupāda: That is the real vision: everyone is person.

Śyāmasundara: What is the remedy, what is the cure, for seeing everyone as a person?

Prabhupāda: You see or not see, everyone is a person. So what does it mean?

Śyāmasundara: Supposing I want to observe everyone in their personal manifestation, I want to see everyone as a person.

Prabhupāda: You are not seeing everyone as a person?

Śyāmasundara: Now I am seeing everyone as an object-"He is black," "He is American," "He is white"-but I want to see everyone as a person.

Prabhupāda: That means discrimination. Every individual person has got discrimination. That is discrimination. That is discriminating "This is good," "This is bad," "This is black," "This is white." Duality. So he has got this discriminating power.

Śyāmasundara: But I want to see everyone as a person, not as an object. So how do I do that?

Prabhupāda: Because he is person, therefore he is discriminating.

Śyāmasundara: But how do I perceive someone as a person? How do I do it?

Prabhupāda: Because he has got discriminating power.

Śyāmasundara: What is the method for doing it? What is the method of seeing someone as a person?

Prabhupāda: There is no method. It is directly perceived. As soon as I see you, you have got individuality.

Śyāmasundara: But I don't see your individuality. I see you as an object.

Prabhupāda: Why do you see like that?

Śyāmasundara: I want to know how I can see you as a person. What is the cure? What is the remedy? What is the solution?

Prabhupāda: I don't follow what you are saying. Everyone is seeing. I am seeing you as a person, you are seeing me as a person.

Śyāmasundara: No. I am seeing someone as an object.

Devotee: How can we change our consciousness?

Śyāmasundara: No. I didn't say that. I want to know how I see someone as a person and not as an object. How do I do that? What is… You say that you can tell me how to see someone as a person.

Prabhupāda: Because whomever you see, he has got some individual propensity. Anyone you see, he has got some individual propensity. Therefore he is a person.

Śyāmasundara: So by observing someone's individual propensity, then I can see him as a person?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: I see. Instead of just seeing black, white, this or that, I look for individual propensities, so I appreciate those individual propensities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Appreciate or not appreciate, it is there.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the fundamental project of man is his desire to be.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he is eternal. Because he is eternal, he has got that desire to be. Unfortunately, he is put under certain conditions that he cannot keep himself eternal. That is his problem. That problem we have solved-how to remain or to keep myself eternal. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this desire to be makes us seek after "thingness," solidity, density. I want to become like this table, because it is something that exists-stable-but because my nature is unstable, that I am always seeking after "thingness," but my real nature is "no-thingness."

Prabhupāda: The table also will not exist. Just like if I see that a tree is existing ten thousand years and I do not exist one hundred years, that does not mean the tree will exist. It will be finished after one thousand years. Because I do not see the duration of time, of its existence, I think that it will go. Similarly, I am thinking the table is existing. Table also will not exist. That is my deficiency in seeing power. Nothing will exist.

Śyāmasundara: Still this does not prevent me from wanting something solid, something dense, some situation of permanency.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That situation is spiritual world. That we are giving information, because everyone is seeking after that, but they do not know where it is. We are giving that information here, paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20], in the Bhagavad-gītā. "There is another nature which is permanent, sanātana. Even after the annihilation of this whole universe it will exist." That information we are giving.

Śyāmasundara: He says that in this unity of myself, the subject, that I desire objectivity, and he says this union of subject and object is called the "being in itself," or God; that man is desiring to be God or "being in himself."

Prabhupāda: This is the position more or less of Māyāvādī philosophy, that when I am completely in knowledge, I become God. It is like that.

Śyāmasundara: He says this is man's fundamental orientation, that he wants to become God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we confirm in this way, that because he is part and parcel of God, so he wants to be united with God. Because he is now detached from God, so therefore, just like a man who is for long, long years out of home, so he wants to go home again.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this desire to be God is bound to fail.

Prabhupāda: Because he is not God. If he is God at all, then how will he fail to become non-God?

Śyāmasundara: What was that?

Prabhupāda: He is desiring to be God, that means he is not God at the present moment. So if he is God, how did he become non-God? Therefore he cannot become God, but he can become godly. That is our philosophy. Just like I am in darkness, I want light, so I can come into the sunshine. That does not mean I become sun. But when I come to the sunshine, I come to the light. Similarly, when you come to perfect knowledge, that is godly. But you cannot become God. If you are God, then there is no question of becoming non-God. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Acyuta. Acyuta means He never becomes non-God. He is God always. When He is three months old on the lap of His mother He is God. When He is seven years old, lifting the hill, He is God. And when He is marrying 16,000 wives He is God. When He is dancing with the gopīs He is God. That is God. God is always God. Not that I am non-God now and I shall become God by some means, mystic factory. No.

Śyāmasundara: I'll just read a quote from one of his books. He says, "To be a man means to reach towards being God; or if you prefer, man, fundamentally, is the desire to be God. Every human reality is a passion in that it projects losing itself so as to found being, and by the same stroke to constitute the…"

Prabhupāda: To desire to become God, that is also passion, because he cannot become God. This is simply passion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the human being has the capacity to give up or sacrifice something in order to reach for something higher.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called tapasya, austerity.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we have the ability to lose ourselves to find ourselves, to lose something in order to find something else.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our process. To find ourself, in our real position, we give up so many material enjoyments. Just like a diseased man is ordered by the doctor, "Do not do this." So he is sacrificing those things, "do not's," accepting "do not's," to become cured from the disease.

Śyāmasundara: This is why he calls man a useless passion, because he says in the passion of losing himself or giving up something he will never really find anything else, so that it's a useless passion to give up these things.

Prabhupāda: No. That is his case. But this is the process, to find out, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59], to find out the best, I give up something worse. Just like we are teaching our students to give up these habits, so they are giving up, with the aim to get a better thing-Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: He said in the act of giving up, you don't find anything any better.

Prabhupāda: No. He does not find because he is blind, but we find. We take vision from superior person. So our vision is not blind.

Śyāmasundara: He says that we are trying to find the state of escaping contingency, or we are trying to reach an absolute state where we are not conditioned by anything. This is what we are striving for. But we will never be able to find that state.

Prabhupāda: If we are not conditioned, then how are we trying to reach the absolute state?

Śyāmasundara: He says that we are conditioned, but we are trying to be unconditioned. But we can never reach that state.

Prabhupāda: No. That is his hopelessness. That is not our (indistinct). We are giving up something paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. We are giving something for getting higher position, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this is an impossible project, to become absolute.

Prabhupāda: Not absolute, but to be the right relationship. Just like I am existing now, but not in right relationship. I am trying to exist as the Lord or master. But when I live as servant, that is my right relationship. I am trying to exist as the Lord or master, but when I live as a servant, that is my right relationship.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that we all want to become God. That is hopeless.

Prabhupāda: No. That is hopeless. That you cannot. That is wrong. We cannot become God. The only answer is that how we can become God? If you are God, then how did you become non-God? God cannot become non-God at any stage.

Śyāmasundara: I think he looks at it that we are not God. We know we are not God, but we are trying to become God.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But he says it's impossible to become God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But because it is impossible to become God, that means everything else is useless.

Prabhupāda: No. That is another foolishness. You are not God; you are God's servant. Now you are posing to be God. So give up this idea and become servant. That is right idea. You are actually servant of God, but you are posing yourself as master. So you give up this wrong idea and become servant of God, then you are happy.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all… [break]

Devotee: That faith is not to choose, but that is a choice, as Kṛṣṇa explains in the Bhagavad-gītā, that there is action and inaction, and one who can see action in so-called inaction, he is intelligent. He is in that category of unintelligent people. They take this form of inaction as being inaction. And so he is thinking this so-called drifting as no choice; it is simply a way to make a choice very easily. You are choosing to go down the river with the current. It's choosing to remain in animal life.

Śyāmasundara: To be controlled completely by external forces.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: They are surrendering to the material nature.

Prabhupāda: Vikti mamate (?).

Śyāmasundara: This is the whole hippie philosophy.

Devotee: They are making a choice, but the wrong choice.

Śyāmasundara: But he says you shouldn't be like this. Sartre says you shouldn't be like this-this drifting.

Devotee: Right. It makes no difference what you choose.

Śyāmasundara: But you have to do it strongly.

Devotee: No. Just point out they are making a choice. The point is, they are making the wrong choice. Therefore you have to make the right choice. It does make a difference. His philosophy is that it doesn't make any difference what you choose-not even admitting that it does make a difference-you simply have to carry it out that you know what is the right way by the instructions of superior authority.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. We see it like that, but he sees it that it doesn't matter what you choose as long as you make a conscious choice.

Devotee: Then why not just choose to go along consciously?

Śyāmasundara: Because that's bad faith. That's not engaging myself with the world at large.

Devotee: All the other choices are simply illusion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. It will only be illusory to somebody who sees things like that. But for him, at least there is a situation encountered-he calls that an encounter-then either I can walk away from the situation-which is one way of making a bad choice, but he calls it bad faith-or in good faith I can face the situation and choose to go this way or that way.

Devotee: The philosophy seems contradictory. If you walk away, still you are going to face another situation.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But that's a situation of bad faith-that I'm not facing; I'm not encountering. His hero, Sartre's hero, is someone who courageously faces the situation and chooses one way or the other. It really doesn't matter, because ultimately all of man's trying is in vain. What matters is that how you do it.

Devotee: Why not courageously drift? You see, that's what I think Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying. If you look, he is arbitrarily making some value judgment, but actually he is…

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Actually we do that. We courageously drift, just like Camus drifted right into a telephone pole.

Devotee: That is our point, that that is the same courageousness of the jñānī.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Into the fire, insect philosophy.

Devotee: He still must establish values, even if whimsically.

Śyāmasundara: His only value is that he encourages you to do something, just like one of his heroes is.

Devotee: Why not take that trait that is so admirable, that courage, and put it into a right decision? That's our philosophy. Our philosophy is not that we should not be determined…

Śyāmasundara: Our philosophy is based first of all that there is a purpose in the universe. If to begin with, his thesis is that there's no purpose in the universe, then he can't say anything is right or wrong.

Devotee: Then what is the point of any philosophy? If there's no purpose, why should I read his philosophy? His philosophy also is meaningless.

Prabhupāda: Just to say there is no purpose?

Śyāmasundara: No. There is only existence. There is no essence.

Devotee: Then why write?

Śyāmasundara: Because it's something to do. Just like I courageously choose to write, that's all, so I must do it.

Devotee: What is…

Śyāmasundara: Ultimately yes. Even Prabhupāda stated this, too.

Prabhupāda: It is rat philosophy. He has something to do-cut everything into pieces.

Devotee: What is that?

Prabhupāda: Something to do. I have to do something. He is cutting a book into pieces.

Śyāmasundara: Jean-Paul Genet was one of his heroes-a sadist, a homosexual, a criminal. He thought very highly of him, because he said at least he has chosen something he is doing very courageously. So he got him released from jail. Now he has chosen to become a Communist, Sartre. So… [break] He is very much trouble with the government. They want to arrest him, but he is too famous. His life is (indistinct).

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the actual cause of shame?

Prabhupāda: Higher consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: If I am ashamed to take my clothes off in public, why is that?

Prabhupāda: Higher consciousness. The dog has no such thing; therefore this consciousness is not developed.

Devotee: He says something about…, "You have it resolved in your mind and you don't carry it through."

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda gave an example: if I decide to rob a bank and I don't rob the bank and I… [break]

Prabhupāda: What is next?

Śyāmasundara: Next we'll go back to Fichte, a German philosopher, then Hegel, Schopenhauer. (end)

RUSSELL.SYA

Bertrand Russell

Śyāmasundara: So this morning's philosopher is called Bertrand Russell. As we enter into this twentieth century, the philosophies become more and more complicated, more and more abstract. So it may be a little difficult to try to understand some of his ideas, but we can try.

Prabhupāda: Philosophy does not become complicated; the mode of living becoming complicated-from simplicity to complication. Otherwise everything is there. Just like by nature's law, the sunrise is not complicated. It is the same process (indistinct). So we are making complicated things underneath the sun. So if we know what is life, then there is no complication. But they do not know. Especially the modern education, they are making things more and more complicated. Therefore the so-called philosophy is becoming complicated.

Śyāmasundara: Another difficulty with Bertrand Russell is that his philosophy changed. Many times throughout his life he changed his viewpoint.

Prabhupāda: That means he does not know what is philosophy. Philosophy cannot be changed. Just like āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam-the four principles of life-eating, sleeping, mating… (aside:) Sit down here.

Devotee: I was watching the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: All right. So they are eating-where is the change of philosophy? Eating philosophy is there. Sleeping philosophy is there. Why it should change? What is fact, there is no need of changing. Imperfect knowledge changes. Perfect knowledge never changes. So he changes philosophy means his knowledge is imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: He comes in the tradition of the British empiricists, which believes that nothing outside of our senses can give us any knowledge. But still, he was never able to believe that simple mathematical principles like "Two plus equals four" are merely generalizations which we derive from our experience. He says that these things must be eternal principles, such as "Two plus two equals four."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So mathematical calculations, if it is perfect, then it is all right. Just like a child is born: father plus mother equal to child. So this is all right. But if one says that without father, through mother only, child, then how this is mathematical calculation? Whenever there is a child, it is to be understood that there is father and mother. If somebody says "No. Without father, simply mother gives birth to a child," then what kind of calculation is this? Similarly, these so-called philosophers, they simply think the nature is all-in-all, but that's not the fact. Nature is prakṛti, just like mother. There must be father. But they do not believe in father. So what kind of mathematical calculation? That is not mathematical calculation; that is concoction. Mathematical calculation-"Two plus two equal to four"-is a fact everywhere. Either you go to Europe or America or anywhere you go, that mathematical calculation-"Two plus two equal to four"-it can be understood. Similarly, it is very easy to understand that without father, mother cannot give birth to a child. Similarly, this nature, without the supreme father, Kṛṣṇa, she cannot give any birth. But these modern philosophers, scientists, they are struck with wonder simply by observing the natural activities. So Kṛṣṇa says that "Background of these natural activities is I." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My supervision." Just like prakṛti, woman, the girl, naturally, when she is young, her father's direction, er, when she is child. When she is young, husband's direction. When she is old, elderly children's, son's, direction. In India at least you'll find, woman has no independence. And to remain dependent under father, under husband or elderly boys, that is their happiness. And in Western countries I see they're so-called independent, but (indistinct) the women's are so unhappy. So mathematical calculation means you should take the natural sequence, no artificial introduction. That will not make us happy.

Śyāmasundara: If you'll remember, some of the philosophers we have discussed, they believe that unless the world is perceived, it does not exist. But Bertrand Russell thought that the world was real in itself. Even though we do not perceive it, it still exists.

Prabhupāda: That, that (indistinct). World exists, whether we perceive or not perceive. It doesn't matter. So many things we do not perceive. Just like the child, he sees the electric fan is moving, but he does not perceive where is electricity power, or the powerhouse. So because the child does not perceive the powerhouse and electricity, it does not mean that there is no electricity or no powerhouse. It is the childish fault that one must think like that, that without electricity, without powerhouse, the fan is moving. That is childish. The so-called perception or no perception is simply childish.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the existence of the real world beyond sense data cannot be proved.

Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense cannot perceive. Therefore we have to go to a person who knows. I may be fool, rascal, so I cannot perceive, but that does not mean things are there as the fools and rascals perceive. Our process is, therefore, Vedic process-tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to be really learned, wise, one must go to a guru. Gurum eva abhigacchet. Must. This abhigacchet word means "must." There is no alternative. He cannot know things as they are without approaching guru. That is our Vedic system. And guru means one who knows the Vedas, and one who is firmly fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is guru.

Śyāmasundara: But how does someone prove that something exists beyond his…, beyond our senses?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Just like child does not know. He simply sees the fan is running-superficially. But he does not know that there is electricity power, and there is a powerhouse. So that is lack of knowledge. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births, one comes to the real knowledge, and that is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Then he knows that Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is the original (indistinct). It is a question of knowing, and knowing through the direct current via media-guru. Otherwise he remains in darkness. Therefore guru-namastaya. Ajñāna timirāndasya. Everyone is blind by the darkness of ignorance. Jñānāñjana śalākayā. And the guru's business is to lighten ignorance, the śalāka. What is called, śalāka?

Devotee: Lamp.

Śyāmasundara: Torch.

Prabhupāda: Torch. Yes. Torchlight. The torchlight. Guru gives the torchlight, jñānāñjana śalākayā. What is that torchlight? By awakening his dormant knowledge. That is torch. Then he can see what is world.

Śyāmasundara: So the proof that one accepts for something which is beyond our sense is not necessarily scientific?

Prabhupāda: Not at all. What to speak of scientific, it is completely ignorant. There is no question of science. It is simply darkness.

Śyāmasundara: No. I mean the proof…, if one accepts the proof of the guru's authority…

Prabhupāda: That is the proof. He gives there. Guru-the next line says who is guru: śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam. He has heard the truth from the paramparā system, and the result of his hearing-he's firmly convinced and fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one can finally see that one is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he answers all questions on the authority of śāstra, he's guru. This is the proof of it(?). Just like we, whenever we say something, we immediately support it by quoting from Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata, Vedas. This is called knowledge. And the result of knowledge-fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, firm. Nobody can deviate. That is guru. Two sides: one side is that he knows everything from authoritative source. And he, as the result, is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. These two things are the symptoms of guru.

Śyāmasundara: This Bertrand Russell says that the world consists of a number of simple facts, each independent of all the others yet related externally to each other.

Prabhupāda: What are those facts?

Śyāmasundara: Well, everything that we see and perceive is individually separate, atomic, he calls it. So that the world consists of millions, of billions, numberless simple facts. They're externally related, but they're still independent of each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're not independent; they are dependent. Who makes that separate? How do I separate them? There is no answer for that. They see simply that things are separate, but how they are separated, wherefrom they have come? That means superficial observation. But our Vedic process is to find out the original source. That is factual knowledge. We can, just like (indistinct) because you are scientist, that if we are talking not according to the scientific facts, it is counter to the facts, then, you are modern scientist, so if you find that there is something we are talking which does not corroborate with the scientific statement, you can point out.

Śyāmasundara: Just like when we were discussing Hegel, Hegel's belief was everything was synthetic, that it…, for every thesis there was an antithesis, and each combining made a synthesis, so that all things were related and all things combined together were the world. But his idea is the opposite-that everything is separated, everything is individual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Separated, but there is sympathy. It is not separated abrupt. There is sympathy. Just like here, all our students, they are individual, separately, but there is (indistinct) sympathy, that every one of you are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is sympathy. Even though you are all separated, you have got your individual opinions, still there is a sympathy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise what is the use of this assembly unless there is sympathy? (aside:) What you say, Dr. Rao?

Dr. Rao: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What your science says?

Dr. Rao: Science says that matter is composed of atoms; atoms, in turn, they are composed of the smaller particles like electrons, protons, neutrons and so on. And now scientists, they have found out that these smaller particles, they are also composed of still smaller particles. So there is no end to it. I mean…

Prabhupāda: Then what about the bigger? So what is smaller, but then what about the bigger? (laughter)

Dr. Rao: It doesn't mention. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Rao: God is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. So for the scientist it is very difficult to find an end, which is the smallest particle. That is what it is coming out every day.

Prabhupāda: Well, that means they could not reach to the ultimate goal of knowledge.

Dr. Rao: Not only that, but the scientists, really, they are changing like anything. Einstein developed the theory, and that theory was thought to be superior to that developed by Newton. Now another theory has been developed which is being thought to be superior than that of Einstein. So these things are only relative. The real scientist can see that all these things are relative. Everything is changing. Our conception of life-somebody says that sun is moving; somebody says earth is moving. But (indistinct) calculation you find that eclipse, lunar or…, (indistinct), it does not not matter which thing is moving and which thing is not moving. It is so complicated.

Prabhupāda: And the complicated things are so nicely (indistinct), that you know or do not know, it goes on. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Rao: (indistinct) (laughter) When people were not so scientific, at that time also, (indistinct rest of comment).

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are called muni. (indistinct) Nasau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. You cannot become a muni unless you differ from the previous system. That is muni. Muni means mental concoction.

Dr. Rao: Mental concoction.

Prabhupāda: That's all. May be thoughtful, but mental concoction. There is no basic truth.

Acyutānanda: When science comes to something which is inconceivable, like gravity, they say it's an inconceivable energy which is pulling everything down. But they don't know what that inconceivable energy is. They just put a fancy word on it, they say it is gravity. And then they claim to have discovered it.

Śyāmasundara: So sometimes Bertrand Russell's philosophy is called atomistic logic, because he sought to base all logic at the, in the smallest particle.

Prabhupāda: That is not new. It was discussed in India, paramāṇuvāda, paramāṇuvāda.

Śyāmasundara: What is that?

Prabhupāda: That is atomistic. Atom, paramāṇu. And in the Brahmā-saṁhitā the paramāṇu logic is there, atomic theory. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham. So it is not a new discovery. The paramāṇuvāda, atomic theory, is there already.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he seeks to reduce philosophy to the smallest particle, where each individual fact is to be examined.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Here is a scientist. He says that atom is divided into protons, (indistinct). That bigger, they do not know how (indistinct) and where it is ended.

Dr. Rao: Not only that, but they have developed their idea of anti-matter, that there is anti-matter, you know, something against matter. So for every particle there is something relative. So his idea is very complicated.

Śyāmasundara: So for each fact there is…, it's also composed of several other facts…

Prabhupāda: Actually, as we say, that anti-matter are fixed up in (indistinct). I say anti-matter is spirit. That spirit soul is very small, keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya: [Cc. Madhya 19.140] the tip of the hair divided into ten thousand parts. So it is unimaginable by the modern scientist. Therefore the ultimate smallest part is the spirit soul, spark, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit. Therefore we have to take the knowledge from Vedas. That is the perfect (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says there are two types of logical atoms-the sense data and universals. And this problem, he saw, of the difference between the crude data of the senses and the things as understood by physical sciences. So he divided these into two types of knowledge. The knowledge of sense data is the immediate knowledge by acquaintance with something, and the knowledge of physical science is that knowledge derived from things, or inferred, by description from things. And he says the example of the first type of knowledge…

Prabhupāda: This knowledge, what is that?

Devotee: Inference.

Prabhupāda: Inference. What is that, inference knowledge?

Śyāmasundara: Just like the proposition "All men are mortal," this is inferred after examination, scientific examination, of a number of men.

Prabhupāda: How it is? How many number of men one can examine?

Śyāmasundara: Well, this is what he says.

Prabhupāda: If it is based on scientific examination of men, so our (indistinct) is limited. How many men we can examine to know that he is actually mortal? Just like individual, suppose you live for one hundred years and begin your study of the human being, say, at the age of twenty. So suppose for eighty years you go on examining. How many men you can examine every year? Say ten thousand men? Ten thousand men you examine, go on, eighty years, so how many-ten thousand into eighty?

Śyāmasundara: Er, eight hundred thousand?

Devotee: Eight million.

Prabhupāda: Eight million. Does it mean there is only eight million persons?

Acyutānanda: And how do you know they're mortal anyway, by examining?

Śyāmasundara: No. This is his idea, that this type of knowledge may not be always true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is it. It is not true.

Śyāmasundara: The first type of knowledge, centralized in the senses, such as "This snowball is white," he says that type of knowledge, there is no possibility of error, because it is knowledge that's direct or immediate. There's no mediation between. Immediate.

Prabhupāda: Therefore our proposition, to receive perfect knowledge from the authorities, that is perfect. As Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-praptam [Bg. 4.2]. Kṛṣṇa is perfect, and whatever knowledge He imparts, that is perfect. If we take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, then our knowledge is perfect. I may not be as perfect as Kṛṣṇa, but if I simply accept the statements of Kṛṣṇa, then my knowledge is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this type of conclusion such as "All men are mortal," there is no possibility of error because different people may arrive at the opposite conclusion…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) What is that?

Śyāmasundara: He says that this type of conclusion that "All men are mortal," there is room, there is possibility of error in those kind of conclusions because different people arrive at different…

Prabhupāda: No. This knowledge is perfect because our proof is Vedas. In the Vedas it is stated that bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. In the Vedas it is stated that anything material, by its birth, its growth, its staying, its by-product, its dwindling, and then vanish. This is the nature of everything material. That we get from the Vedas, that everything which is born is sure to die. So birth, death, old age, by-products, dwindling, this is material nature's way. But we get the perfect knowledge from Vedas; therefore our knowledge is perfect. So we can accept perfect knowledge without any examination. What you think, Dr. Rao?

Dr. Rao: That is it.

Prabhupāda: Because our study is imperfect, because if our senses are imperfect, our scope of knowledge is imperfect, therefore as soon as we receive the knowledge from the perfect source, then it is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says in a type of understanding that is direct, such as "This snowball is white," that there is no possibility of error because there is no distinction between what a thing seems to be and what it is in reality.

Prabhupāda: No. That is called direct perception. So direct perception is not perfect. It is no… Just like I see the sun (indistinct), but I see just like a disc. But it is not a disc. Therefore my direct perception of the sun is imperfect. When we go to scientific book, astronomy, then you can understand that it is so great, fourteen hundred lakhs, or fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than the earth. So this my direct perception, it has no value.

Śyāmasundara: What about the knowledge, for instance, "This snowball is white"? Isn't that a direct fact, this understanding by everyone?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The snowball is white, but it may be mixed up (indistinct) white. That is also very (indistinct).

Dr. Rao: Snowball is actually colorless. It is not white.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Rao: I mean, so this proposition is incorrect. It is the rays of sun which are falling on the snowball, they are reflected, and then you see that snowball is white. Otherwise, snow is colorless.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes we see seven colors on the snowball. It is white. It is sunshine reflected there.

Dr. Rao: White light. You see white light, but white light is composed of seven colors: violet, indigo, blue, you know, (indistinct) and green, yellow, orange and red. So, but you are seeing white. (indistinct).

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect.

Dr. Rao: That is imperfection.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is concluded that direct perception is always imperfect. (laughter)

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: His belief for…, the criterion for truth is called the correspondence theory, that a belief is true if it agrees with the facts with which it is supposed to correspond.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example, we see the snow as white, but it is…, does not correspond with the fact. Therefore it is not knowledge.

Dr. Rao: There is another example. They see water can (indistinct) in several (indistinct). One is the seawater, one is the (indistinct rest of comment)

Śyāmasundara: He also says that besides the correspondence, that fact must correspond with…, that a belief must correspond with the fact if it is to be true. Also he says…

Prabhupāda: So that fact does not correspond by direct perception, (indistinct) that we are seeing the snowball white, but scientifically it is not white; it is a combination of seven colors.

Dr. Rao: And even by saying white, it is (indistinct). You see sky, you see white clouds, you see white light, you see snow. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Therefore we sometimes say "snow white." (laughter) "Snow white" means (indistinct). (laughter) So what is the standard of whiteness?

Dr. Rao: (indistinct comment) …they are not transparent. But you can take very fine (indistinct) out of them, and they are transparent. So how can we say they are (indistinct). They are in fact transparent. It is ludicrous. That also science is attempting.

Śyāmasundara: He says another criterion for truth is coherence.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in our Vedic language they are called, direct perception, pratyakṣa. Pratyakṣa-jña.

Dr. Rao: Pratyakṣa.

Prabhupāda: So pratyakṣa is third-class knowledge, according to Vedic system. Pratyakṣa is third-class knowledge. Or fifth-class knowledge. There are stages of knowledge-pratyakṣa, parokṣa, aparokṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta-(indistinct)-that when you come to the standard of aprakṛta knowledge, that is perfection. So pratyakṣa knowledge, direct perception, is fifth-class knowledge, and according to Vedic system, pratyakṣa, aitirya, and śabda… Pratyakṣa, direct perception; (Sanskrit), (indistinct); and śabdha. Three. So out of these three kinds of evidences, śabda-pramāṇa, veda-pramāṇa, is perfect. So if pratyakṣa knowledge is perfect, then why a child, a boy, is sent to school? To hear from the teacher. That is śabda. That is śabda. If pratyakṣa, direct perception, would have been perfect, then there was no need of sending these boys to school to hear from the teacher. But this is very scientific, śabda-pramāṇa.

Śyāmasundara: But isn't the understanding of the white light composed of seven other colors, isn't that also a fact of direct sense perception?

Prabhupāda: No. That is śabda. So a man sees this white snowball, he sees snow. He may not see the reflection of the sun, seven colors, but when he goes to a teacher, he can hear that there is seven colors. Therefore śabda-pramāṇa. The word, the sound, then he can be perfect.

Dr. Rao: (indistinct) Vedic truth?

Prabhupāda: No. Anything we receive knowledge directly by our sense perception, that is imperfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: Because even if we see the seven colors in the laboratory with instruments, we still don't understand the even simpler facts of which that is composed. There may be seven colors, but how to understand those?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore material knowledge is always imperfect. That is the conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind plays no part in the process of evolution, because the only evidence for the existence of mental phenomena is a fragment of space and time. But this is not a substance; it is simply a set of relations.

Prabhupāda: He does not know it is also matter, but very subtle matter. It is matter. Just like ether-you cannot touch, you cannot see, but still it is matter. And mind is subtler than the ether. But it is matter. Intelligence is subtler than the mind, but still it is matter. So from Vedic authorities we understand that earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, they are all material.

Dr. Rao: And ahaṅkāra, ego.

Prabhupāda: Ego, that is also matter.

Dr. Rao: That is the ultimate…

Śyāmasundara: So does the mind play any part in the evolutionary process? The mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Evolutionary process means… If evolution means to go higher, then from mind you come to intelligence. And if you go still higher, then you come to the platform of soul, spirit soul.

Śyāmasundara: Well, according to these men like Russell, the evolution of bodies, the changes from one body to another, those are simply physical.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. That we have already discussed, that if evolution of bodies, then just like this Darwin says that some monkeys, eh? So where is the direct proof that a monkey body is changing to a human body? We say that there are different types of bodies always, just like different types of apartment. But the living entity, the soul, is transferring from one apartment to another just like we change. We are in this room, we may go to another room-but that room is already ready. But I am entering a certain type of apartment according to my means. If I can pay more rent, I can get very nice apartment. If I do not pay, I cannot pay, then that is not possible. Similarly, according to our karma, nature is offering us different apartments, and these apartments are already there, fixed up, 8,400,000 species of life. So as you make yourself fit, you enter accordingly. It is not fixed up that because you are now in a very nice apartment you cannot go down or go up. If you are fit for entering into better apartment, that is also ready. And if you are unfit for entering a better, then lower class of apartment, that is also ready. So these things are already there.

Dr. Rao: (indistinct) between chance of from one apartment to another?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is said… Just like you step forward. You first of all put your leg. When you see that it is fixed up, then you get up (indistinct). Unless you are firm, that "Now I am solid," then you take up the other leg. Similarly death takes place when it is ascertained that this soul has to enter such-and-such body, when it is settled up by higher authority, then he gives up this body and enters into (another) body.

Śyāmasundara: He says that matter is simply a series of events in which energy and not force as the real motive power, that what we call the material world, rather than being described as solid and understood in terms of force, that actually it is energy performing different events.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. It is forced by the energy. Matter has no form, but by the superior energy, the living entity (indistinct) mixed up (indistinct) matter and make the form. Just like a (indistinct) plate, clay, water, and fire. So the potter makes a form from the clay. Clay means earth and water, mixed up, and it makes a pot and then puts it with fire and it becomes a glass and so on. So tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayam. It is simply exchange of earth, water, and fire. But this mixture is being made by the potter. And the instrument is the potter's wheel. So similarly, God is the potter, and the material nature is the wheel, and so many things are coming out. But if there is no potter to turn the wheel or make the clay into pots, this is not (indistinct). There is already water, there is already earth, there is already fire, but unless a spirit, a being, a living being, comes into it, there is no question of (indistinct). Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, (indistinct). Because the living entities are there, the formation is taking place. A (indistinct), it is a combination of matter. But because we see that the living entity is there, it is taking a certain type of shape. Matter does not out of itself take the shape. That is wrong theory. We have no such experience where matter is taking automatically shape. (indistinct). Is there any exception?

Dr. Rao: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: How matter can take shape? That is not philosophy, that is childish. That is the defect of the modern civilization. A man has got childish knowledge and he is becoming philosopher.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the cause-effect relationship between things has very little effect on genuine events which can cause reality.

Prabhupāda: No. There must be cause and effect.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says there is cause and effect, but these have little effect on the main events that comprise reality.

Prabhupāda: No. There's a cause, a supreme cause, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], supreme cause. They'll have to find out the supreme cause. Just like I was eating that fruit, what is called? (indistinct) what is the English of (indistinct)? All right. Take any fruit, any fruit, I am eating one fruit. Take orange. So take each piece of orange parts, there are so many seeds, and each seed there is a tree, and each tree there is millions of fruit, and each fruit there is millions of seeds, and each seed, there is a (indistinct) tree. So who has made this? Speak up. Therefore you have to find out the supreme cause. That is knowledge. (indistinct) And Brahmā, the most perfect (indistinct) in this universe, he says that

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

How you have to take that knowledge from the superior? He gives us the key: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Vedānta is searching out what is Brahman. Brahman means the original source of everything. [break] …mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. So those who are vidhā, actually learned, they know that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme source of everything; therefore we should offer our obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. This is actually knowledge. And one who does not know how to (indistinct) the supreme, but suppose blindly he accepts, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," he also derives (indistinct). Just like fire: either with scientific knowledge you touch, or without any knowledge you touch, the fire will act. Similarly, Krsna is the supreme. Either you study scientifically or not study, He is supreme. So somehow or other, if one goes to supreme he becomes purified. That is, that is the defect of the modern man. Therefore they question, question about the līlā of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs. Gopī means, gopī is actually surrendered(?) to Kṛṣṇa in love. Kṛṣṇa is faithful(?). But Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme. Their lusty desires become purified and they became the first-class devotees. Therefore Lord Caitanya was so strict as a sannyāsī to allow women to come to near to His (indistinct), He says, ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. So there is no superior mode of worship than it was conceived by the damsels of Vraja, because they loved Kṛṣṇa blindly, without any reservation, without any return. Mad after Kṛṣṇa. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says this is the first-class love. They might have gone with some purpose, that doesn't matter, but because they approached Kṛṣṇa somehow or other, (indistinct) kāma, it doesn't matter. Fire, the same example: fire you touch in any way, it will act. So in that way, Kṛṣṇa does not become polluted. Even superficially it appears to be wrong, the gopīs were others' wives, but because He is Kṛṣṇa, He cannot be polluted. The example is given, just like the sun. The sun absorbs water from urinal, so that place where you pass urine, that becomes sterilized, purified, but sun does not become impure. Similarly, you may go with Kṛṣṇa, even with lust, it doesn't matter, but because you come to Kṛṣṇa, you become purified. And Kṛṣṇa remains pure always. So those who do not know this science, they think, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is being (indistinct)." Kṛṣṇa is not being (indistinct), Kṛṣṇa is giving chance to everyone, "You come to Me, anyway, I give you protection." This is all. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaiṣṇava. Even if you are sinful… For a married woman who goes to another man, it is sinful, but because they are going to Kṛṣṇa, so Kṛṣṇa makes them pure, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Therefore the transgression, according to the, if you are sinful, becomes purified in touch with Kṛṣṇa. As the example is very nice, (indistinct). Yan-nāma-śruti-mātreṇa pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ: simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's name one becomes purified. How the gopīs can remain impure, in touch with Kṛṣṇa? Simply in touch with His holy name one becomes pure, and they are directly in touch with Kṛṣṇa, how they can be impure? So one who does not know the science of Kṛṣṇa, they say like that, "Oh, why (indistinct)?" They want to give direction to God. They think that God should be under their rules and regulations; therefore they dare to question Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa therefore says in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Whatever He does, that is transcendental, but one must know tattvataḥ, in truth. And as soon as he knows it, he becomes liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. So one should know Kṛṣṇa in truth, not superficially, and comparing oneself to Kṛṣṇa. No, Kṛṣṇa is… "He (is) a man like me, maybe little wiser, that's all." Dr. Frog calculation. Atlantic Ocean from the well, three-feet well. You see. (indistinct). Yes.

Indian man: The gopīs went to Kṛṣṇa out of knowledge, or being affected by Him?

Prabhupāda: Being affected by Him. Yes.

Indian man: By His beauty. Not that they realized that He is God and…

Prabhupāda: No. The Vṛndāvana, they did not know Kṛṣṇa, even Yaśodā-mayī did not know that He is God. Otherwise, how the transaction of pleasure will be done, if they knew that He is God? Then they could not show, I mean to say, freely mix with Kṛṣṇa. They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. "Kṛṣṇa is our friend, boy friend." They're all neighborhood children. From childhood they are grown up, and the girls, when they are twelve, thirteen years old, they're married. So Kṛṣṇa was not married. (indistinct) wait up to twenty years. But the girl friends, so they are coming to Kṛṣṇa, they could not forget Kṛṣṇa. And they wanted to serve their husbands, but it was not possible. Because in our India, twelve-years-old boy, they got married. But a girl, twelve years, thirteen years, she is (indistinct) young. But the girls had love for Kṛṣṇa, but they are married-some of them had children-but still, they used to come to Kṛṣṇa due to old friendship. That is a fact. But this kind of friendship is not allowed in the society. Therefore it appears like immorality. And Kṛṣṇa also instructed them, when the gopīs came at midnight. He said that "What you have done?" He (indistinct) immediately. That instruction is there. But still they insisted. Their love for Kṛṣṇa is so intense that He must dance with them. They have come and they are not going back. So Kṛṣṇa is always servant to His devotees. And that another point is that Kṛṣṇa is the real enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. So even He danced with others' wives, actually He's the proprietor. So from that sense, angle of vision, there is no immoral.

Pañca-draviḍa: From that angle of vision everyone is committing adultery except Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa… When you think that "This is my wife," that is other thing. But (s)he does not belong to you; everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. But under certain ritualistic ceremony, marriage ceremony, Kṛṣṇa gives you, "All right, you take this as your wife." That is, so much we can take. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. But you cannot aspire more than that. That is immoral.

Śyāmasundara: This Bertrand Russell says that ethics, or what is right and wrong, is simply a set of emotional attitudes, and it cannot be, we cannot regard anything as good or bad. That nothing…

Prabhupāda: He does not make any distinction between good and bad?

Śyāmasundara: That there's no absolute good and bad. Nothing can be said "This is true or false," that "This is good," or that "This is bad."

Prabhupāda: That means he could not observe the distinction between good and bad. Does it mean like that?

Śyāmasundara: He says the only knowledge which is valid is proven scientifically, and he says that since moral right and wrong is not…

Prabhupāda: What is his proposal? What is scientifically proven? What is scientifically bad?

Śyāmasundara: He says good and bad are not subject to scientific proof.

Prabhupāda: But proof to him. But there is proof, what is really good and what is really bad. Has he given any practical example, that "This is scientifically good" and that "this is scientifically bad"?

Śyāmasundara: He says, "What is good is that which is desired," that desirable.

Prabhupāda: But anyone can desire anything. (laughter) So it is nonsense.

Pañca-draviḍa: Also it is nonsense because he went to jail because he wanted them not to bomb. He went to jail himself.

Prabhupāda: So was that not bad thing, to go to the jail? (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: But it's relative. He says it's relative, good and bad.

Prabhupāda: Then he was a madman. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: From his point of view, he said it was good that he went to jail.

Prabhupāda: Madman always thinks like that. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: He said that values like good and bad lie outside the domain of knowledge, that they are simply venting of emotions.

Prabhupāda: That outside means it depends on the verdict of somebody further up. Is it not? He does not come to that point?

Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't come to that point. No. He says it's all relative, good and bad.

Prabhupāda: No. He says… What does he say?

Śyāmasundara: He says that values like good and bad lie outside the domain of knowledge, that they are simply emotional.

Prabhupāda: Outside the domain of knowledge, so that means it depends on the verdict of God. If God says, "This is good," then it is good. If God says, "This is bad," then it is bad. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you surrender unto Him, that is religion. And any religion which does not teach to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is not religion. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa can say sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]? Any religion which does not preach to surrender to the Supreme, that is not religion.

Śyāmasundara: Just like in Bertrand Russell's own case, they're going to drop the bomb on someone. Now some people say it's good-they should drop the bomb to test it. Some people, like he, say, "No, it's bad." So who is to decide? There's no scientific proof.

Prabhupāda: No. Proof, he does not know. Under whose order to drop bombs, bombs should be dropped, under whose order the bombs should not be dropped? There is authority, but he does not know. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna hesitated to fight, "No, I shall…, I shall not drop the bomb." But when he was convinced, after studying Bhagavad-gītā, that "I have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa," so Kṛṣṇa says, "Drop the bomb," you drop-that is good. That is the… So here in this material world, they are doing with the bomb business by their whim. But when it is directly ordered by Kṛṣṇa, that is not whim; that is good. So that is the standard of good and bad. You should carry out, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. That is the injunction, as Arjuna says, that "I shall carry out Your order." (indistinct) Krsna consciousness. No hesitation. If one does not do that, that is bad. He may pose himself very saintly person, but if he does not carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, then he's bad.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the social good is that which is desired by the most people.

Prabhupāda: Self… Most people may be foolish. Therefore we don't take social or in that way. Our Vedic civilization is from the higher authorities. Just like law we take from Manu, Manu-saṁhitā.

Devotee: Most people wanted to drop the bomb. And he was against it. So therefore his own philosophy is negated by himself.

Śyāmasundara: And his idea is that you have to educate…

Prabhupāda: And what is the ultimate goal of that education? So ultimate goal of education is to come to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is education. (indistinct), she is educated. Why? So ultimate knowledge is that, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19].

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that emotions are what are determining good and bad, and if we educate people into scientific reality…

Prabhupāda: No. No emotion. We don't… Just like Arjuna. By emotion he was thinking, "I shall not fight." That was emotion. So "I shall be bad man, taking to these orders"-these are… Anything material, that is emotion, sentiment. Yes. So religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So therefore our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so sound. We do not go by sentiment. We accept the superior order of Kṛṣṇa (indistinct), it is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is no such thing as fact. There are not facts.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. (laughter) He does not know what is facts.

Devotee: He just before said that it is facts what we see from our senses, so again he's negating his own philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: But he's using… He wants to use another word for facts. Instead of facts he…

Prabhupāda: What is the fact?

Śyāmasundara: …he calls it propositions, or symbol, such as "Snow is white." Instead of calling it a fact, he would say, "It is proposition." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is the fact? He must say "This is fact."

Indian man: This is the same question in London. One of the (indistinct), that how can… [break] (end)

SKINNER.SYA

B. F. Skinner

Śyāmasundara: This philosopher is B. F. Skinner. He is actually a psychologist, but he has a philosophy also. That philosophy is…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) psychology is part of philosophy. (indistinct) better than that philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, the philosophy is that the Christian idea that inside the body there is a person is outmoded, because the science has discovered that a person's behavior and his reactions are simply a product of his environment, his conditioning; so he can make a fool out of a wise man or a wise man out of a fool simply by changing the surroundings and the conditions.

Prabhupāda: Why the man has not been able to change the surroundings of death, birth? What is his philosophy?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he said that problem can be never be solved.

Prabhupāda: Then how he says it can be explained by surroundings?

Śyāmasundara: He only talks about behavior.

Prabhupāda: Behavior, that's all right. Whatever behavior, in the ultimate, goal, everyone is dying so how man can change this condition? Then he can say that there is no God, there is no soul.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that he wants…, he has one idea: that is to be able to control human behavior.

Prabhupāda: What he wants to do? By a man's behavior… Every man is eating. How he can control? He cannot control.

Śyāmasundara: By what they call method of reinforcement. Supposing… He says that men have become too free, so our whole society, culture, is ruined because men are too free.

Prabhupāda: No. We are not free. We, according to our Vedic civilization, we are controlled by the Vedic knowledge. We are not free.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, in a way. He says that everyone is conditioned by their environment.

Prabhupāda: No. We are conditioned by nature, not by environment. Just like there is excessive heat, excessive cold. He is conditioned by nature. You cannot avoid it. So where is his…, molding this environment. You cannot make winter season into summer season or summer season into winter season.

Śyāmasundara: No. But he says you can train a man to accept certain values by reinforcing, rewarding them when they are right and punishing them when they are wrong.

Prabhupāda: That means there are living conditions, he wants to make them further conditioned.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the idea.

Śyāmasundara: Perfect control over everyone.

Prabhupāda: So that is already there. The Vedic injunction means the (indistinct), they are conditioned, so that under conditions they also can be fruitful(?). What is his idea?

Śyāmasundara: He says that society should be full of love and security and harmony, and everyone should work in unison. But because people have freedom to choose what they want, then too much freedom, the society is falling apart.

Prabhupāda: That is Western society, not the society controlled by the Vedic literature. Just like marriage in Vedic society, that is a religious obligation. They cannot cancel. The freedom, the so-called freedom is allowed in the upstart Western society.

Śyāmasundara: So he says we have to change all this now.

Prabhupāda: Then we have to take to the Vedic principles. That is the way.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is taken from his work with rats and pigeons.

Prabhupāda: His authority is rats and pigeons. Our authority is Vedavyāsa. (laughter) That is the difference. Our authority is Kṛṣṇa. Our authority is Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Manu, and his authority is rats and pigeons. That is the difference between the West and East.

Śyāmasundara: He shows scientifically that you can train a rat to push…, of many buttons, he will push the one that gives him food. If he pushes one button and the food comes, then he will continually press that button. So he says you can condition a man by rewarding him when he is right and punishing him when he is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the whole Vedic literature-the heaven and hell. If you do like this, then you go to heaven, and if you do like this, you go to hell. If you do like this, you go to Godhead. That is the Vedic literature. It is already there. (Sanskrit). (Sanskrit), therefore if one chants like this, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. And this morning I was speaking, "If you want to be naked, then you become tree." (indistinct) servant, and if he wants to serve Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct). These things are there the Vedic literature. They are controlled. That is real conditioning. Real controlling means there is no mistake. If these rats and cats are controlling, then maybe you take rats' and cats' authority, and others may take tigers' and others' authority. This is stated already. The authority must be (indistinct).

Devotee: He isn't saying how we should control people. He is simply putting forth the idea that people should be controlled. He doesn't say… In fact, he admits that he doesn't know what the aim or goal is, or how exactly we should control it. He is simply putting forth that according to the Vedic system, the correct thesis that man can be controlled.

Prabhupāda: Man is already controlled, already controlled. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that you are already under the dangerous laws, under the control of the stringent laws of material nature. And you are feeling inconvenienced, just like the threefold miserable condition. (indistinct-greeting guests) So there is no doubt about it. We are controlled. Nobody can say "I am free." We are controlled. When we are being controlled, we are feeling some inconvenience. So we are advising that you be under the control of Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: (indistinct) …come criminals, and they are causing disruption in this society. So he says that that is our fault. He says that everyone from childhood should be trained in a controlled environment and then be conditioned to a certain pattern so that they will not commit what is crime and will only do what is good. In other words, they become like robots. So what they do is program these robots. They're programmed to do a certain thing.

Prabhupāda: So that program is already there. But if you create your own program, you do not follow the standard program. That is the defect.

Śyāmasundara: This program, because Skinner himself believes in Judeo-Christian ethics combined with a scientific tradition. But he fails to answer how it is possible to accept those ethics without accepting something like an inner person with an autonomous concept. In other words, he says we can program society to be good to your neighbor, to love one another, to be honest, upright, like that. But he is still not sure how it would be possible without accepting a free will.

Prabhupāda: The defect is that these programs are being forwarded by some rascal. Therefore they are defective. If they would have been forwarded by perfect man, then you would have actual (indistinct). Now one rascal is forwarding some program, another rascal next time (indistinct) this is true. So this is going on in Western world. Because according to Bhāgavata we belong to the category of dogs, hogs, camels. So what is the benefit of a dog's program and (indistinct) by camel's program. If they are on the, basically there is nothing but dogs, hogs, camels and asses, then suppose dog has given some program and the camel says, "No. This program is better than this one." And the ass comes, he introduces another program, "This program is better than this program." So either of these programs, because they are made by dogs, hogs, asses and camels, they cannot be perfect. Take a program from a real human being. Then it is perfect. The defect is there. One philosopher is proposing something, another philosopher is proposing something… That is (indistinct) especially in the Western countries, they are doing so independence (?). But the Vedic civilization there is no independence. They must follow the Vedic injunction. As I have said several times, the Vedas says that the stool of cow is completely pure. They do not argue that "Formerly you say that the stool of animal is impure. Now you are saying that the stool of animal, cow, is pure. So how can we accept?" There is no such thing. The Vedas says, even it is stool, but the Vedas says the stool of cow is perfectly pure. Yes. No contradiction. Our presentation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like that. But Kṛṣṇa says, "(indistinct), as it is." There is no question of altering or changing according to circumstances. We know Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Whatever He has said, it is all right, in all conditions. That is our belief. We do not deviate. So similarly, if the direction is taken for training from the perfect, that is the best. And if the direction is taken from the process of (indistinct) philosophy, hogs, dogs, and asses, and camels how can you take? (indistinct) something, (indistinct) something, (indistinct) analysis something, so the whole society will be (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says from sunrise (?), he says everyone is conditioned anyway. Everyone is conditioned.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is conditioned, that is a fact. Unless he is conditioned, there is no question of material life. Material life means conditioned life. There is no question of material life. Material life means conditioned life. There is no question of freedom. Just like prison life. Prison life means conditioned life. You may be a first-class prisoner, a second-class, a third-class prisoner, that is another thing, but as soon as you are put within the walls of the prison house, you are conditioned. That is a fact. Similarly, anyone who has accepted this body (Sanskrit). Just like Bhāgavata says, nayam deha dehabhajam nrloke. Nrloke. Everyone is conditioned, accepting this material body. But he says nayam deha deha-bhajam nrloke. But those who have accepted this material body in the human society, for them it is not good to be engaged in sense gratification like dogs, hogs and camels. Everyone who has got this material body, he is conditioned. But, so when one gets the body of a human being, he should not be so conditioned like the dogs, hogs, camels. This is the truth, that we are conditioned. We have got the body. We have got the bodily necessity. We have to eat, we have to sleep, gratify our senses, protect ourself from fear. The conditions are there, but still, we can make the conditions better. How? Tapo. We have to undergo austerities, penances. Just like we, we don't say, "No sex life," but "No illicit sex life." This is better life.

Devotee: Skinner also believes that we have to control activities, but he himself is not willing to undergo these austerities.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is useless. Example is better than precept. By example he cannot prove. Therefore his precept has no value.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Another thing he says that if you tell the society to get comforts, material comforts, have peace, in relationship with man to man, benefits one's own self on a very false ego level.

Śyāmasundara: Humanitarian.

Prabhupāda: What is that humanitarian? I kick you, you kick me.

Śyāmasundara: He says that now the conditions that control us are haphazard. Some are designed by selfish men to exploit others.

Prabhupāda: Why (indistinct) that he is perfect man?

Śyāmasundara: He says that we can design a culture that will survive due to its being moral, set, upright, honest, hard-working, all-typical American.

Devotee: What about the standard? Someone has to be God in order to set the standard.

Śyāmasundara: He said, "Between God and I, I must admit that God is (indistinct)." (indistinct) quote. He says that "Between myself…," between himself… He says there is a curious similarity between himself and God, adding, however, that "Perhaps I must yield to God in point of seniority." He wants to play God.

Prabhupāda: He wants to play God.

Śyāmasundara: He wants to design the culture.

Prabhupāda: What is his conception of God?

Śyāmasundara: Senior qualities.

Prabhupāda: That's right. (laughter) We accept that. Nityo nityānām. (laughter) We accept that. That is Vedic. That is Vedic. He is also living being, but who is the superior, chief living being? That is Kṛṣṇa. Just like we are also living beings, but you accept me as chief of the society. Similarly, there are innumerable living entities all over the universes, all over the creation, but who is the chief of them? That is God, the leader. Our philosophy is to follow the leader, Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: But Skinner has no idea that there is an actual representative of God on earth that could set up such a perfect society. Therefore he is dreaming about setting one up in the future while the real representative is actually present with us now. He is thinking of the future.

Prabhupāda: When was he thinking?

Devotee: He is thinking that someday… He is thinking that it can be done. He is living now.

Śyāmasundara: That is his picture. (shows book to Prabhupāda) That is Skinner playing the organ, and it quotes him, saying…

Prabhupāda: So inform him that "Your theory is that God's representative…" He is expecting God's representative?

Devotee: No, no. I'll tell you what he says about God. He says that the belief in God arose due to man's inability to understand his world, but that man no longer needs such a fiction.

Prabhupāda: Then one has to believe him?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Devotee: He also says that we have the capacity to take matters into our own hands. We don't have to ruin it by some controller far away who we have no control over.

Prabhupāda: But that you cannot do. You cannot take the question of birth, death, old age in your hands. How he says that you shall be able to take matters into your own hands?

Śyāmasundara: Well, most scientists like that accept those problems as inescapable problems. But while we are here, let us have the best life we can.

Prabhupāda: But if he can give you better life, where there is no death, there is no old age, there is no disease, why not accept it?

Devotee: We only accept that as a (indistinct) life here. This life you may remain eternal. We have no (indistinct) beyond this life, nor are we willing to accept.

Prabhupāda: That is your conclusion. This cannot be corrected. This cannot be corrected. That they cannot live. They accept it. But there, after death, it is done. But if we give some thought that after death you can attain, what does he say? After death, if there is a life of blissful knowledge, so why don't they take it?

Devotee: Well, a lot of scientists consider that to be a, simply a psychological way of avoiding the issue now. They say, "Let us take matters in our hand right now. Don't try to…"

Prabhupāda: The idea is we have not been able to take the matter in hand to stop death. That is not possible.

Devotee: They think by endeavoring, they will. They say that for so long this idea that we have a life after this life, that kept people complacent, without working up to their own conclusion. Now if you cast out that idea, you forget that idea of an afterlife and you look at here and now, then you will become…

Prabhupāda: You are working. The dogs and hogs are working, day and night. Why they are working? If you (indistinct), they are already working. They are already working like animals, day and night. We sing that, śīta ātapa bāta bariṣana e dina jāminī jagi re. They are already working. They are not free.

Devotee (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) can make that.

Devotee: They're the ones who have actually neglected taking into consideration the real problem, they slide over the real problem, that is birth, death, old age and disease. And they are fiddling around in very small matters-social problems, political problems.

Prabhupāda: These social problems are automatically solved. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, social problems will be solved automatically.

Atreya Ṛṣi: The scientists have been offering a spiritual solution, but a spiritual solution also includes all other…

Prabhupāda: All material solutions.

Atreya Ṛṣi: And they are trying to solve political problems, and they are unable to. This is the…

Prabhupāda: That means less intelligent. They have a poor fund of knowledge. And they are philosophers.

Atreya Ṛṣi: And they have no…

Śyāmasundara: And they call their process social engineering. For instance, they say a criminal does not become bad because he is naturally bad but it's because of his environment. So if we train him in such a way he will be good, and we can…

Prabhupāda: Just like in the Western countries, the social (indistinct), the killing of animals-it is taken not bad. In other societies it is taken as bad. How is that? There are two contradictory societies. One society says that nonviolence is nice, better, but another society says no, violence is better. Then how will I (indistinct)? Which society is good, which society bad? How you will decide?

Devotee: He has no way of deciding.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no way. If you come to the Vedic life, then you will know.

Śyāmasundara: So we should propose this to Skinner: "We will accept your process if you take direction from us."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: He accepts that there should be some process, but he doesn't know what it is. He obviously has not…

Prabhupāda: The process is, just like we say, Vedic injunction: sa gurum eva abhigacchet. He must approach guru.

Atreya Ṛṣi: His idea is that the process should be man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by man.

Prabhupāda: It is man-controlled. It is man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by me.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the best way to release the beneficial energy in the people is to build a world in which people are naturally good and in which they are rewarded for wanting what is good for their culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kṛṣṇa society. The atheists, let him study, let him come, let him understand.

Devotee: His critics… The critics of this theory that we can condition everyone to a certain program are very fearful that someone unscrupulous will be driving us on.

Prabhupāda: No. That we cannot take, I mean, to accept guru as unscrupulous. Therefore we take paramparā. He is coming directly from God. He is perfect. Therefore this paramparā system is bona fide. We cannot accept any rascal to become guru. Guru must be in the paramparā system. He is receiving the knowledge directly from God, Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: This is their dilemma now, that they cannot find any standard of behavior. Formerly people's behavior was motivated by deprivation. They wanted more economic gain because there was hunger. But now we have everything, so no one wants to work anymore. So now there is nothing that satisfies people enough to make them behave.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Vedānta gives for him: athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now we have got enough to eat, enough to enjoy. Now we inquire about Brahman. This is the business we should (indistinct). So this is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are giving knowledge about Brahman, or the Supreme. We are not concerned about giving you some scientific invention, some this invention, that invention. We are giving the ultimate benefit. Now, just like I have come to America with this hope, that "Americans are not properly (indistinct), they have no (indistinct) problems. If I go there, if I speak to them about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will be able to take." So if we, the human society, has come to such standard, then the next point is, now they should eat peacefully, sleep peacefully and sense gratification peacefully and, making the mind peaceful, inquire about the Supreme Absolute. This is ideal life.

Śyāmasundara: This will provide the stimulus which will…, so the people will react favorably, to behave favorably, simply by performing these activities?

Prabhupāda: The experience is… We have got experience that this material world is full of misery. Everyone will (agree). Otherwise why he is trying to adjust? Now we have got information from Bhagavad-gītā,

mām upetya tu kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ

[Bg. 8.15]

Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who comes to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, he does not come again to this material world which is full of misery." Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti… [Bg. 8.15].

Śyāmasundara: But then what is the stimulus? Why will they…?

Prabhupāda: This is stimulus. You are (indistinct) suffering miserable condition of life, and we are offering that "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you go to a place where only there is blissful life and knowledge." What is that?

Devotee: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ [Bg. 8.16].

Prabhupāda: No. Mām upetya.

Devotee: Mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. "From the highest planet in this material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death takes place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."

Prabhupāda: So there are many others. There are many planets, that is a fact. So there is a planet where Kṛṣṇa lives, and if you go there, you live perfectly. You are trying to go to the moon planet, but here it says, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino… [Bg. 8.16] What is that? [break]

Śyāmasundara: So we have to condition people that every time they press our button, Hare Kṛṣṇa button, they get some pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Ceto-darpaṇa… Every time he gets some higher knowledge, and his dirty heart he can clean. And therefore his spiritual beliefs become (indistinct). Whereas in the material world, what it says, ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ…

Devotee: Punar āvartino 'rjuna.

Devotee (2): Again returning. Mām upetya tu kaunteya.

Prabhupāda: Read the translation.

Devotee: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."

Prabhupāda: In the material world there are higher planetary systems, lower planetary systems, and we sometimes go higher planetary, sometimes down, according to our karma. But wherever you remain, you cannot avoid birth, death, old age and disease. "But if you come to My planet, then there is no more birth." What is that objection of this (indistinct)?

Śyāmasundara: He only wants to find out. He doesn't know himself what is the…

Prabhupāda: He doesn't know anything. He is a fool. What does he know? He has to learn.

Devotee: He more or less admits that he is not a perfect personality.

Prabhupāda: So who he accepts as perfect?

Devotee: He says "I am not happy."

Prabhupāda: Nobody is happy. How you can be happy? No one in this material world can be happy. How you can be, you are also one of them. Why you are claiming a better position? Nobody can be happy. We say nobody can be happy. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Anyone who is living in this material world cannot be happy.

Śyāmasundara: It seems that Skinner should be very ripe(?), or he is very ripe, because he wants it to be a society where it is controlled and it is…

Prabhupāda: So let him come and study the society. He is a philosopher and intelligent. Invite him.

Śyāmasundara: What about this statement? He says that "I can take any person at young age, any person with me, any person, and I can, at random, and I can train him to be any kind of specialist I might select-doctor, lawyer, even beggarman or thief, regardless of his talents or his nature, his tendencies or abilities."

Prabhupāda: So that means training should be given from childhood. That is the whole idea.

Śyāmasundara: But is that true?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: We can train anyone to become anything.

Prabhupāda: Anything. Just like there is a story, the Tarzan. Tarzan. And he was living in the society of monkeys, and he learned how to jump from one tree to another. (laughter)

Devotee: If someone has a natural kṣatriya tendency, he cannot become a Vaiṣṇava?

Prabhupāda: No. There is no such barrier. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Anyone. Just like…

Devotee: What about brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa too? Someone who is naturally a (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: By coming…

Śyāmasundara: Everyone has become śūdra now. You say everyone is born śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: In the Vedic age wouldn't everyone want to become a brāhmaṇa? Why train someone as a śūdra?

Devotee (2): It is progressive. It takes time. It is a whole progressive path. That is the whole Vedic culture, that everyone, no matter what…

Prabhupāda: And all the śūdras can be made brāhmaṇas. But where all the śūdras are coming? All the śūdras are ready to become brāhmaṇas? How you can explain? We are inviting everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: He is just saying that it is possible that you can mold anyone into anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Possible, yes.

Devotee: But if they won't accept, if they won't accept…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is karma.

Śyāmasundara: But he says there is no possibility of their not accepting, if you form the conditioning as the way. That they must accept by conditioning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also possible. But who is going to make that?

Devotee: How one can supremely control all conditions that would free one from karmic reaction? How could they control the environment?

Śyāmasundara: By punishment and reward. By punishing them when they are wrong…

Devotee: Say he had a house, and he was doing that, and all of a sudden there was a flood came and the house… How could he control the environment?

Śyāmasundara: Of a person, not of a house.

Devotee: That is what I mean. How can you control the environment if that person is going to be punished and rewarded when he wants…

Prabhupāda: He says from childhood.

Śyāmasundara: He is talking about child. Infant.

Prabhupāda: Infant. Yes. That is possible. That is possible. Just like our children, from childhood they are dancing.

Śyāmasundara: Here is a picture of his child. He put his child in a box when it was born. Now this is her today, twenty-seven years later. He conditioned her in this box for a year.

Devotee: How long?

Śyāmasundara: For some time. And she came out better, healthier and happier than normal children, because they kept the temperature the same, because it was germ-free, there was no disease and always cleaned by rotating…

Prabhupāda: That means he protected the child from all calamities.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that is fortunate. If you can protect… Therefore I repeatedly said that our Dallas center should be taken as very much important place. All our children must go.

Śyāmasundara: Make the environment perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have repeatedly said.

Devotee: The reason he built the box, he could not control the environment.

Prabhupāda: No, no, box, you are speaking box, (indistinct) different box. That is another thing. But the perfection is required.

Devotee: His supposition of being able to control the environment completely is imperfect, because he can't control the environment perfectly. Even if he builds his child a box, what if there is a fire in the house and the box burns down? How he can control that environment?

Śyāmasundara: Right now, the level of their experiments are relatively small. For instance, they have created teaching machines where a child is put in front of the machine and a question is asked, and if the child answers it correctly he gets the reward.

Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. The thing is that the Vedic conception of raising children, brahmācārya, that system is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Not by machine.

Prabhupāda: No, this is (indistinct). We are not machines.

Śyāmasundara: No. But he says that when the answer is given correctly by the child, then he is rewarded by him.

Prabhupāda: The answers and questions are already there. That is (indistinct). Just like we say that tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. There is question and answer. Therefore in order to understand the transcendental science, we must go to guru, gurum eva abhigacchet. And then what is the symptom of guru? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Guru means who has learned knowledge by the paramparā system. Śrotriyaṁ brahma. The result is that he is perfectly a devotee.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose we had a machine and one of our children was given the question "Who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead?" And then there were three possibilities, and if she pushed "Kṛṣṇa," some reward would come out.

Prabhupāda: She has to push some button to take out Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the answer has three choices: Kṛṣṇa, Durgā, Kālī. Which one is the Supreme Personality? So if she chooses Kṛṣṇa and then he gets rewarded. So in the future he will always think Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Why must think? Why not take a live master?

Devotee: Yes. He says that that can be done also, but he is saying that they should be rewarded when they say the right answer.

Śyāmasundara: He says that this will solve the problem of not enough teachers in our schools, public schools, not enough teachers for our children. A huge class, and the children have only one teacher. So there's not enough individual time given to each student.

Prabhupāda: So why not produce many teachers? That we (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: No one wants to teach anymore. No one wants to teach anymore.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Devotee: They don't know what to teach.

Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to teach, and they are simply teaching (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: They don't get enough pay, so many reasons.

Prabhupāda: So our teachers do not ask any payment. They go freely. Why don't you take advantage of these teachers?

Devotee: One thing they (indistinct) Prabhupāda, that we are thinking in terms of Vedic culture, and they say well, if this Vedic culture was previously existing, then why did it dissolve? Why did it fall apart and now we have to make a new one?

Prabhupāda: That is not (indistinct). A new way we cannot. If you want perfection, you must take to Vedic culture, because it is not with the four defects of human beings. Anything introduced for… Just like we are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and some of the students are falling back. How (indistinct)? That is not the defect of the institution. That is some other power. So people might have fallen from the standard of Vedic culture, but they cannot invent any new one. That is it.

Devotee: That is the same thing we say about the scientific process. The scientific process isn't imperfect, it is just the masters who are imperfect. They claim that the empiric process is perfect. We have not developed it to perfection.

Devotee (2): For instance, they would say if our students are falling back, that is because of the environment.

Prabhupāda: They are not falling back. Some of them (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Some of them…

Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct) anyway.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that ideally, if our environment was conditioned in such a way that they were rewarded for doing good things and punished for doing bad things, that they would not go away.

Prabhupāda: They would be punished, but they don't care for punishment. Just like it says in the lawbook that if you steal, you'll be arrested, but they don't care for your lawbook, the thief. What can you do? That independence is already there. The lawbook says that if you commit theft you will be punished, and he is actually punished. But if he doesn't care for punishment, then what can you do? Punishment is already there.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, he gives an example that, let's say that in an institution there is lunch served for one hour between twelve and one, and at one o'clock the door is closed and locked, sharply. So automatically everyone who wants to come must come before one o'clock, otherwise they will be punished.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If anyone prefers to starve, they may not come. That law will be not be obligatory to a person who prefers to starve.

Devotee: That isn't the point. The critics make difference. He says that free will can be essentially eliminated. He says you no longer have the choice to be agreeable or not agreeable.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. That is another foolishness.

Devotee: Just like the child he was training, that if he ever missed a meal he would be severely punished. Then he may never want to miss a meal.

Devotee: Or he may never want to take a meal out of (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Actually, his idea is not to let them be punished but to reward.

Prabhupāda: This is the (indistinct), that the thief has learned from the lawbooks, from the religious books, that stealing is bad. If one steals he'll be punished. Because in the human society the scriptures that they have got. No scripture will say that you should steal, for example, neither the lawbook will say that you steal. So if you have heard from scriptures and from lawbooks that stealing is criminal, and by committing this sinful activity I shall be punished, and if you have seen also that anyone who has violated this law and stolen others' property has been arrested and policeman has taken him to the jail, he has seen, he has heard, he has completely experienced, but still, why does he steal? What is the answer?

Devotee: Impelled. Because (indistinct) as a human being. He has a tendency because of the four defects of a human being.

Prabhupāda: Then the question arises, how to rectify these defects?

Śyāmasundara: He says by changing the social environment. By changing the social environment.

Prabhupāda: But he cannot do.

Devotee: But in my experience changing the social environment…

Prabhupāda: The social environment is already there, but still you will be punished.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that if you reward them for not stealing that they will not steal. If you reward them sufficiently.

Prabhupāda: First of all let him come to the point of not stealing. Then you will be all right. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: But if you pay him more, then he won't steal.

Prabhupāda: That you cannot. That you cannot. That is not possible.

Atreya Ṛṣi: The reward and punishment system, Prabhupāda, is motivational. It's not that you pay him more and you pay him less or you punish him. The thing is, he says that…

Prabhupāda: No, no. Who pays? Suppose I am going to steal and get one dollar. And if you pay me three dollars, then I may not steal. Then next point will be when there will be four dollars, I'm going to steal.

Atreya Ṛṣi: No. He is not going to pay you three and four dollars. What he is suggesting is that the reason one steals is not so much that… There are other reasons, like he likes to break the law because he is angry at the law.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the person, why he likes to break the law? That is the question.

Atreya Ṛṣi: That is a good question. Because he is angry or he thinks that his friends would appreciate him more, and he thinks that his friends are more important. That is why he thinks that if you change the social environment then the reward would come…

Prabhupāda: How you can change the social environment?

Śyāmasundara: Those rewards are quantitative. Just like the pigeon gets a certain number of kernels of corn.

Atreya Ṛṣi: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: But how do you know? You don't know what he said. Listen to what he said. He said that each time that a criminal avoids doing bad, he is given some advantage, some material advantage.

Devotee: So we understand that material advantage isn't satisfying.

Śyāmasundara: That is the difference between the pigeons and the man. The pigeons are satisfied with a few kernels of corn. They don't want more than they can eat. But a man wants more and more and more.

Devotee: In the Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna asks the same question.

Prabhupāda: So this is the important point, that what you are thinking rewarding, that is not. He will think it is insignificant. So what (indistinct). If you give me five dollars, if I steal I will get twenty-five dollars. Why shall I accept your reward?

Śyāmasundara: So what about if I don't steal, my friends will like me. If I do steal, my friends will hate me.

Prabhupāda: But if you have got for friends only thieves, then who will object? "Oh, you are very nice, you are very expert." Why should you mix with such friends? (indistinct) Birds of the same feather flock together.

Śyāmasundara: He says there are three things that this society has that keeps people from disobeying, that is God…

Prabhupāda: This is all speculation. It has no meaning.

Śyāmasundara: …God, the police, and what other people will think.

Prabhupāda: But if you have no idea of God, what is God, and why am I expecting that you will fear God? You do not know what is God, and you are talking of God.

Devotee: So he says social environment in the highest essence that has to lead to controlling nature.

Prabhupāda: Here the thing is that these are all childish suppositions. The real thing is that he should be educated. He should be educated. This should be done. He should be educated from the very beginning that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of real religion. He is talking this way and that. Education is required. Without education these things cannot be taught-by rewarding, by this way, by that way, by machine… It is all nonsense, everything. The first education is that every children should be taught from the very beginning that "You are not this body," and he should be taught the nature of the soul. Then he will come to the Supreme Soul. Then he will gradually come to the relationship between the Supreme Soul and the individual soul. And when he develops love for the Supreme Soul he will not violate the order of the Supreme. So that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Śyāmasundara: Like Sarasvatī. She thinks Kṛṣṇa lives in her heart, and she's always thinking of that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. She is hearing, she is being educated, and that fact she is now feeling. Similarly, if we educate all our children in that way, they will be nicely grown-up children.

Śyāmasundara: There is an interesting comparison to be made. They have tried to set up a community along this philosophy just near our New Vrindaban. This is the place, in the hills of Virginia, and some of the… It's interesting to see what their code is compared to ours. Their code is that all are entitled to the same privileges, advantages and respect. Private property is forbidden except for such things as books and clothes, and even then there is community clothing which is all shared. No one is allowed to boast of an individual accomplishment or to gossip or to have any negative speech or to be intolerant of any other's beliefs.

Prabhupāda: You cannot be. It is simply dream. If you simply dream, it will be never be fruitful. But our philosophy is that everyone is thinking as servant of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we have no competition. We want to serve Kṛṣṇa center.

Śyāmasundara: He says that's the main difficulty. He says there is still competition going on.

Prabhupāda: So much more, because he has not changed the mind. The mind is thinking how to become master. So as soon as you want to become master, I want to become master, he wants to, there must be some… But our teaching is different. We become servant, servant of Kṛṣṇa. Even there is competition, but that competition is center in Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Their process is if someone obeys these laws, he is reinforced. That means they'll put a sign up saying "So and so clean…"

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Putting signboard. That is just… Caitanya Mahāprabhu's formula: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. That is the process. By putting signboard, philosophy cannot be learned. That is no good.

Śyāmasundara: They put a sign that "So and so cleaned this room today. He is a good boy."

Prabhupāda: You will clean automatically like that, with clean heart.

Devotee: That is the difference.

Śyāmasundara: Another thing is that they reject the idea of modesty and sin. They say that sex is all right. It is a pleasant pastime like anything else. Freedom of sex life.

Prabhupāda: Just like animals. Sex life like animals.

Śyāmasundara: They said.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) say that. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: They do not reinforce the sin of sex life.

Prabhupāda: Sex life, we don't say it is sin, but there is rules and regulations of sex life.

Śyāmasundara: However, they have contraceptive methods, because to bring children into the equation at this time is not good.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is the difficulty, that these people are coming as philosophers teaching. Rascals. That is the difficulty with the present society. (indistinct) Dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. They are taking the position of teacher. That is the defect. We don't take (indistinct) like that. Dogs, hogs, we cannot accept.

Śyāmasundara: They are making life into an equation, like a mathematical formula. Competing like that. But it doesn't work.

Prabhupāda: It will not work.

Devotee: It says he has a seventy-percent turnover. That means that people get disgusted and leave, seventy percent of them every year.

Prabhupāda: Leave? Why?

Śyāmasundara: Because it says that those who are more competent, they still expect special recognition for their talent, and so they make this demand that we cannot reinforce that kind of behavior. So we deny them and then we go away.

Devotee: So it seems that the whole philosophy (indistinct) and then in the course of there, the whole material world is attached to sex life, so that the whole thing is that all the philosophies that they are inventing are so that they may have liberty to think that they are free and that they are (indistinct). That is all.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: That is their whole thing. All their philosophy tries to have good sex life so that they don't have to think that they will be punished. So if I can have this freedom then I am right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The real point is sense gratification. Freedom of sense gratification. That is their point. But these fools, they do not know that by sense gratification you are entangling yourself in repetition of birth and death.

Śyāmasundara: So Skinner nonetheless allows himself some relaxation. He drinks vodka and tonic in the late afternoon (laughter) and sees an occasional movie. He reads George Simon detective novels once in awhile and enjoys the company of friends. He has two children and his grandchildren. There is a note from his diary: "Sun streams in (indistinct) room. My hi-fi is midway through the first act of Tristan and Isolde. A very pleasant environment. A man would be a fool not to enjoy himself in it. In a moment I will work on a manuscript which may help mankind. So my life is not only pleasant; it is earned or deserved. And yet, yet, I am unhappy."

Prabhupāda: In that sense he is a truthful man. Yes. Truthful.

Śyāmasundara: He wants to… He is trying to understand.

Prabhupāda: He cannot. That is not the way of understanding. The Vedic way is that you first approach a guru. That is the Vedic way. He cannot personally search for the truth. That is not possible. (end)

MARX.SYA

Karl Marx

(tape audio quality extremely poor)

Prabhupāda: and as soon as they get opportunity to become (indistinct), by taking others' blood. Unless you feel in your heart (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that only the workers are entitled to the surplus value of the product (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: But actually the workers (indistinct) no longer work (indistinct). Just like the (indistinct). He was a worker in the mill. He was working, and as soon as he gets some money he sits down as a proprietor of the mill and after, he takes advantage of working others. Because (indistinct) happened and becomes capitalist. There are many instances. Just like in your country, Ford, he was some (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he got the opportunity to become capitalist. And there are so many in our country also (indistinct) that I was a (indistinct) I was out getting money, I was starving, and now I have become first-class. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. They get credit. I recall one book, in Mathura one Mr. (indistinct), he was begging his brother, he became a very businessman, so he wrote his history, that I was begging now I am sitting [break] like that. That's all. So, the theory(?) that my propensity is there, that as soon as I get the opportunity I suck the blood of others and become fat. So unless he changes mentality, there is no question of changing capitalist or communist or this or that. It is all useless.

Śyāmasundara: So shall we stop for today or…?

Devotee: Yes, continue tomorrow.

Śyāmasundara: We still have a few more of Marx.

Devotee: We can do it tomorrow. Then we'll do Lenin tomorrow. [break] So, today we will continue with Marx.

Prabhupāda: Marx? Not yet finished?

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Śyāmasundara: He says that since capital is unnecessary for production, that the capitalists should be overthrown violently and the workers of the world should unite and overthrow the capitalists.

Prabhupāda: But the difficulty is-that we have already discussed (indistinct), today I am (indistinct), tomorrow I am capitalist. Because my tendency is, as soon as I get some money, I shall become master. That is the tendency. That we have already discussed. Today one man is very poor man, so he is in favor of his brothers who are poor, working, but as soon as he gets a little money, immediately he becomes the capitalist. Then he is imitating the same way as the capitalist.

Śyāmasundara: Suppose there is a social system where everyone gets the same amount, no one gets excess.

Prabhupāda: That is simply theory, that is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: But that's what happens in Russia. The managers, they don't get much more than the workers, so that everyone only can have a certain income. Just like Himavati's relatives,they sent their relatives in Russia some gifts for Christmas. The relatives sold the gifts and used the money to buy wood to add a room to their house, and because of that they were greatly punished, severely punished, by the state. But they should have given that money to others, they should have distributed it equally, that was the state's theory because anything that I use for my own benefit is wrong.

Prabhupāda: So my tendency is to (consider) everything as my own, but by the taking of the state I am forced to avoid(?). So how long will this work? By force how you can change one's mind? It is not possible. Therefore we say these things are only nonsense proposition. It will never happen because anyone who is in this material world, he has the prime tendency that I shall become the Lord. (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. The material world means everyone is seeking after some profit, everyone is seeking after some adoration, and everyone is seeking, I mean to say, some position. This is the material world. So, if everyone, seeks profit, adoration and position, so how you can make equal by force?

Śyāmasundara: The communists have played upon this tendency and so the worker who produces more, he gets glorified by the state. He produces more units at his factory than the others, then he gets a small bonus.

Prabhupāda: Why he should get bonus?

Śyāmasundara: In order to, incentive, incentive bonus.

Prabhupāda: That means that his tendency is to lord it over, and that he is being bribed. He wants some profit, "All right, I give you some bonus. This Russian communist idea is very good provided the citizens do not want any profit but that is not possible. Everyone wants profit. So how by law, by force, you can take it? It is not possible. The same proposition: that in the winter season the bugs cannot get blood, cannot come out due to the serious cold so they become dried up. Their skin practically dries, dries completely. There is no blood. That is (indistinct). But as soon as the bug gets opportunity, in the summer season, he can come out, immediately he bites somebody and sucks all the blood.

Śyāmasundara: So this is an example of the people in Russia who are forced by the state not to take profit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but as soon as there is opportunity, they will take it. Because that is the (indistinct). As soon as he got some (indistinct), because it is mine, and he sold it and he utilized it for the purpose. So this is the psychological fact that everyone is trying to get some profit. By force you can make him not to take profit, but that is not possible. As soon as there is profit (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So Karl Marx made a manifesto called the Communist Manifesto which lists ten points for social reform. Should we read them, (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: The first one is the abolition of property and land and application of all rent from land to public purposes. In other words abolition of private property, all property becomes public. The second point is a heavy income tax, no, progressive income tax, so if you make more, you have to pay more. The abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Prabhupāda: The, this thing is not only in Russia, this is going on in other countries. So, people have been taught not to keep accounts. All these big, big business men they don't keep accounts, so there is no question of income tax. Suppose if I want to purchase from you something. No cash memo, no account. I give you money, cash, I take goods, I sell it, no account, then I cash from my (indistinct). That's all. But provided I have my right books, then these things will be applicable-income tax. Just like in our Indian system, there small broker, he has no book; nothing of the sort. He is purchasing one bag or two bags of rice, he is selling, that's all. He does not keep accounts. So as soon as… The whole tendency is, that I want profit. If the government (indistinct), somehow or other, (indistinct), I will get my profit but I will not show government how much profit I am making. He may propose all these nice things according to his philosophy but he cannot change the mind of the people. Therefore all these proposal will be futile. Simply waste of time, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the mind of people can be changed because the conditions…

Prabhupāda: But not in that way, by force. That is not possible. You cannot change the mind even of a child by force, and what to speak of elderly man, educated man. Is it not so? Mind can be changed by our process: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Otherwise it is not. These things will be made (indistinct) complete, even in the ordinary position. Their utopia-it is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: He also wants to abolish all inheritance rights, all rights of inheritance.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense proposal, because everyone's tendency is to give money to his children. That is the law everywhere. I have got some affection for my children. I want to give something to my children. So how you can stop this (indistinct). They are proposing all impractical.

Śyāmasundara: They are practicing this in Russia. There is no inheritance. There is no…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct), we have seen Russia is not happy. Russia is not happy and they are simply waiting for another opportunity, another revolution. (indistinct) this boy (indistinct), he is not happy. Similarly we can study. Just like when there is rice boiling you take one grain of rice and press it in your finger. If it is soft, then you can understand the whole rice is boiled. So we can understand the position of Russia from the sample, that boy. We haven't got to study more. And we could get some idea by talking with that professor that, how much foolish he is. He says that after death everything is finished. And he is passing on as a big professor, Indian department, Indology or something. So, if his knowledge is like that, if the sample of the citizen is like that boy, then what is their position? They may theorize so many things. So far as we are concerned, foreigners, we could not get even food to our satisfaction. There is no (indistinct) vegetables, no fruits, milk was (indistinct), no rice. That Madrasi gentleman, if he would not have contributed some dahl and rice and the…, then practically we would have starved.

Śyāmasundara: The rice from Korea was like BB's, small pellets. We bought some rice.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Śyāmasundara: It was from North Korea, the rice we bought in Moscow. It was so tough(?).

Prabhupāda: Life is very difficult there. You can simply eat meat, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: And liquor.

Prabhupāda: Liquor, that's all. And what they are drinking on the road? You did not see?

Śyāmasundara: I think it was some kind of wine, or…

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Śyāmasundara: …liquor.

Prabhupāda: But these things were almost in every road. People were drinking (indistinct), students and drinking.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I remember, yes, it was, that was soft drinks, soft drinks.

Prabhupāda: Another thing, that shopping is so much troublesome.

Śyāmasundara: Telephone.

Prabhupāda: Who is calling? (indistinct). (indistinct) has said that…

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) these people were descendents of warrior class, kṣatriya class, so they are naturally inclined to those things, meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: No, the warrior class are not like that, kṣatriya. Not that they are addicted. These are caṇḍālas. They are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍālas, the dog eaters, the hog-eaters. In India they are sweeper class. Mlecchas (?). (indistinct). She comes from that family. Now (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, all property, all money, capital, communications, transport everything should be brought into central, centralize, centralized in the hands of the state.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, what profit will be (indistinct), the member in the central, they will exploit, just like Krushchev was doing, and he was (indistinct). So, our diagnosis is that tendency is there. Unless you reform that tendency, these things will be bogus. Now Russia, just according to Marx theory, they are doing that, but (indistinct) utilize it. How you shall stop this mentality? What is that program?

Śyāmasundara: Their program is first you change the social conditions then the mentality will change.

Prabhupāda:Impossible. It will simply react and there will be another revolution.

Śyāmasundara: So first you have to change the mentality and then the social structure will change.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless I am trained up to think that I do not possess anything, everything belongs to the State… But it is very difficult to change. Simply nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: But they think like that.

Prabhupāda: They think but (indistinct) utopian, that is another thing. But, so…

Śyāmasundara: They're all… Yes, this is an example. There was one woman, who was in charge of the, a maid in that hotel. Although she must have known from childhood that that hotel belongs to the state, the foodstuff belongs to the state, everything belongs to the state, still she had proprietorship, false proprietorship over her kitchen, that kitchen. She would not allow us into that kitchen.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Śyāmasundara: Even though it was not hers-we had every right to use it as much as her, she would not allow it.

Prabhupāda: Just see. In Russia. Yes. In the hotel. And there were some quarrels.

Śyāmasundara: Quarrels. She wanted the rights to that stove.

Prabhupāda: So how you can change it? Simply theorizing will not serve(?).

Devotee: In Russia when they find someone who is deviating like that they send them to Siberia. So their process of checking them is to punish them.

Prabhupāda: But there… Everything is going on simply on threatening. You see there is no heart to heart cooperation(?). Therefore everyone we saw, they were morose.

Śyāmasundara: Slogans. They simply speak slogans. Propaganda.

Prabhupāda: There is no cooperation. In this way, finally the people will non-cooperate and there will be revolution. Just like Gandhi's noncooperation. That stage will come. Nobody will cooperate with them. So these are foolish theories. It has no practical value.

Śyāmasundara: So their idea about… It says that all events are seen as physical reactions aimed at satisfying economic and material needs of mankind. In other words everything that happens historically is seen as a result of economic and material needs required.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. I have already explained. Because I want to make profit, you want to make profit, so as soon as there will be check in my profit-making or your profit-making, then we shall fight. The reason is that I want to make profit, you want to make profit, nobody is prepared to sacrifice profit. So as soon as our interests clash there is fight.

Śyāmasundara: So the sad truth is that the whole world is revolving on the principle of economic desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes economic desire. Profit, that is stated in the śāstras, (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. (indistinct) means profit. (indistinct) means… Why I want profit? Because if I have got money, then people will adore me (and) say (to me), "You are God. You are everything." (indistinct) Give me some (indistinct). Just like the beggars, (indistinct) their blessing, you become king, you will be so on and so on and so on, you are so great. In this way he thinks, "Oh I am great. All right, there." He becomes immediately sophisticated, "Oh I am so great. All right, there." This is there. He flatters.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man's nature is the result of historical forces. Therefore ideas change according to material conditions. In other words…

Prabhupāda: This ideas cannot change, these basic ideas, that I want some property, I want some adoration and I want some position. This will never change. These rascals, they do not know the basic principles of human psychology.

Śyāmasundara: Their philosophy is gross materialism. They believe everything in science matters.

Prabhupāda: Superficial, no depth of knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: So they even (indistinct) material in factors of clothing, matter (indistinct). It was his idea that matter changes through history according to economic development, economic changes.

Prabhupāda: We take our knowledge from authority. Just like this (indistinct) pratiṣṭhā. We take it from authority. So this is the science. Everyone is after some profit, some adoration and some position.

Prabhupāda: Therefore these things have been forbidden for persons who are advanced in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because if you have got all these material desires, then you cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. These are called anyābhila, desiring something for material profit. So, bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam, one must be completely free from all these desires, material desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], without any aspiration for resultant action of knowledge and karma. Knowledge means, just like the jñānīs, they are cultivating knowledge, but their aim is how to become one with God. That is their aim. That means here he says to get a position to his satisfaction, now he wants to get the position of God. Let us say I am superficially (indistinct) that he is a sannyāsī, he does not possess anything but by his sacrificing all position it this world he wants to get possession of the Supreme Lord. He is (indistinct) that I have given up everything but I want to (indistinct) of your (indistinct). So this is going on. (indistinct) vairāgya. (indistinct) vairāgya.

Śyāmasundara: He has another slogan that "Human effort has no true reality." In other words…

Prabhupāda: Because does not know what is reality. He is a fool.

Śyāmasundara: Well he says that man's reality or man's nature changes through history according to material conditions.

Prabhupāda: Well that is the way of…, everything is changing. This tree is changing daily, your body is changing, that is not a very high philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that if you mold…

Prabhupāda: Jagat. Jagat means change. Jagat. (indistinct) jagat, everything is changing. Just like wind(?), time and tide. So that is not a very unique proposal. It is the nature's way, it is going on. And therefore I say this theory, this Marx theory, it is all changeable(?). It will not stay.

Śyāmasundara: Does this mean that man's nature, there is no fundamental nature that a man's reality is…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual nature. That is spiritual nature. We are teaching people to come to that standard, spiritual nature which will never change. Just like we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is not (indistinct). We are serving Kṛṣṇa and when we go to Vaikuntha, we serve Kṛṣṇa. That which is called nitya. Nitya means eternal. Nitya-yukta upāsate. Bhagavad-gītā, eternally engaged in the service of the Lord. Not like Māyāvādī. Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say that "Let me serve Kṛṣṇa now. As soon as I become liberated, I become God. I become God." This is another bluff. Just like I am serving you to take your favor and as soon as I get opportunity I ride upon you. You see? Now,

Śyāmasundara, (indistinct). This is Māyāvāda theory.

Śyāmasundara: They want to become…

Prabhupāda: One. One with God. That means (indistinct). Here, he could not enjoy. There are so many impediments. Therefore brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. This is all mithyā. So I become one with Brahman. This is jñānī. And karma means that I work hard, I get some result, and I enjoy. Karma-phala. But bhakti means that one should be completely free from all these desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. One should not be covered with the results of jñāna and karma. Then what is bhakti? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuṣīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness if favor of Kṛṣṇa. Not in my favor. So long you think anything in your favor, that is not bhakti. So where is this mentality? You give up Kṛṣṇa, you replace Kṛṣṇa with the state, that how you can get your mentality, nothing in my favor, everything in favor of the state. It is impossible, but these rascals try. (indistinct) simply (indistinct). Just like Stalin. He got the position and as soon as he found somebody that is not in his favor, then immediately cut his throat. The same, the disease is there, that I want everything in my favor and I cover it by some illusion. So how you can be successful?

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that human nature has no reality of it's own, that it's a product of the material environment so that if you put a man in a factory…

Prabhupāda: So if it has no reality, why they are proposing something nonsense as real, if there is no reality?

Śyāmasundara: Well their idea is that if you put a man in a factory and you get him to identify with the state, the production, the scientific achievement, say…

Prabhupāda: That cannot be, that is our philosophy. Because he has got the basic disease. He is saying that I am working so hard, but the profit is not coming to me, he will be immediately slackened. Just like there is a proverb, proprietorship turns sand into gold. But as soon there is lacking of the sense that I am not proprietor, the gold becomes sand. That is position of Russia. They are not happy, they are not rich, in comparison to other European countries. Of course, no European country is as good, or as rich as America, that is a fact. That I have practically seen. But still, in Russia, they are poorer than other countries.

Śyāmasundara: One of their methods is to constantly whip the people with the idea that there may be war at any moment so the people are always thinking, "We must protect our country, we must protect our country," so they work.

Prabhupāda: But when they lose interest in the country on the basis of this basical idea, that I cannot make any profit, I have no proprietorship, then what interest I have got in this country?

Śyāmasundara: So only the negative, the negative stress forces them to work.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Your home may be in danger, your family may be lost if you don't work.

Prabhupāda: But if I work, what do I get. I work or not work, I get the same thing. Where is my incentive? Marshall's theory is that economic development is based on family affection.

Śyāmasundara: Is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if I cannot give good food, good dress to my family… The same thing, I am working so hard, another man is working as laborer, I am scientist so my wife and children with the same dress and he is this, so I am losing my interest. And that is the position (indistinct). They are all impractical.

Śyāmasundara: He says that industrial and scientific work is the highest point of activity.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the… Unless the scientist and the industrialist get sufficient profit for himself, he will be reluctant to work for the state.

Śyāmasundara: Their goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being.

Prabhupāda: The human well-being means if you don't agree to me, I cut your throat, that's all. This is (indistinct). I am thinking in my way: human well being. Just like Stalin, he was thinking in his own way, human well-being, but anyone who disagrees with him, cut his throat. This is (indistinct). Lenin also (indistinct) like that.

Śyāmasundara: Well-being is relative.

Prabhupāda: Just like he killed all the royal family. So this killing, they will say it is well-being of the (indistinct). So this is not well-being for the royal family. But they theorized, it is well-being.

Śyāmasundara: So they say the well-being for the most people. If something has to be sacrificed for that then it is all right.

Prabhupāda: So that everyone thinks. Everyone says, but these are also incorrect propositions. So far Russia is concerned, we have seen practically, these things are not being applied. Like, at least we have seen, that in Moscow, all big, big buildings, they are not recent buildings, they are old, damaged buildings, and (indistinct). So that means their economic condition is not so sound. The old buildings are not very nicely renovated. So what is that building we we are going inside, getting out from the National Hotel? There was a big building, some historical building?

Śyāmasundara: Kremlin?

Prabhupāda: Library or something?

Śyāmasundara: Lenin's… Oh, the one with the round turret?

Prabhupāda: No, no, just like our hotel was there, and (indistinct) after a few steps there was a big building.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, the state planning?

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Śyāmasundara: State planning commision.

Prabhupāda: That is a very old building; that is not recent building. So similarly all the buildings (indistinct), they are not recent buildings.

Śyāmasundara: The only fairly recent building was the university. It has a big, big, big, big building.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, that may be, that was not very…

Śyāmasundara: Not very new.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) not very huge. That is not very extraordinary.

Śyāmasundara: Not compared to New York City.

Prabhupāda: No, not…

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that well-being is measured by how many telephones there are, how many refigerators, how many…

Prabhupāda: That they haven't got. There is no sufficient motor car. He knows when we asked Professor Kotovsky for call taxi. He said, "Oh this is Moscow, it is very,difficult." Do you remember that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do you remember? He gave us direction: "If you kindly go in this way, in this way…"

Śyāmasundara: Take the bus.

Prabhupāda: Not if you can reach sooner, (indistinct) waiting for taxi. Do you remember?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember.

Prabhupāda: And we did it. We walked too. He gave us direction, "You go in this way, this way, then you will go to your hotel sooner than we wait for a taxi." So, either there is no sufficient taxi, (indistinct) company, they do not get profit, or there is no sufficient demand. People have no sufficient income. That is the… In your country as soon as you want a taxi, you get it. Simply call, "I want a taxi." The same thing India, immediately taxi is (indistinct) go. In Boston I was calling, "Simply send taxi." You have seen? You know better than me, that there is telephone in the taxi.

Śyāmasundara: In the taxi, yes.

Prabhupāda: And they are directing can you go this side, can you go this side, so as soon as he finds that where he is, from that place the taxi is nearer; he says, "Yes, I can go." So immediately his number is (indistinct) and he'll immediately inform the taxi stand. This is the system. So, where is that system? (indistinct) European country, they are so proud of their philosophy and people are not getting their goods, nice (indistinct). There are lines, big lines for purchasing things and for foreigners you are asked, "What is your citizenship." There is fight, which foreigner is here. (indistinct) that boy related that he cannot go out (indistinct). People are not happy, that's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that religion is an illusion and it must be condemned.

Prabhupāda: That's right, but his theory, he is become a nuisance now. (indistinct) but his philosophy is becoming illusion. That's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: In other words its not being practiced.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Within how many years? The revolution was in 1917.

Śyāmasundara: About a hundred years.

Prabhupāda: No hundred.

Śyāmasundara: Fifty.

Prabhupāda: Fifty. So within fifty years his philosophy is (indistinct). And in India, we do not know when religion began. You say Brahmā. So Brahmā's twelve hours… Twelve hours (indistinct) cannot calculate. So religion, our this Vedic religion is there since so many long years and instead of being devastated by the foreigner for the last two thousand years, still the religion, the system of religion, is running. It is not illusion, at least for India.

Śyāmasundara: I'll read his famous statement about religion. He says, "Religion is the (indistinct) of the oppressed (indistinct), the heart of the heartless world, just as it is the spirit of the spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Prabhupāda: That's right, but the he does not know what is religion. His definition (indistinct) why he accepts the Vedic way; nobody knows what is religion. Our Vedic version is religion is the code given by God. So if God is fact then His law is also fact, it is not illusion. Just like Kṛṣṇa giving religion. There is (indistinct), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], to surrender unto God. This is religion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that everything is produced from economic struggle. So that religion is like a police force, and it is invented by the bourgeois or the capitalist as a technique to dissuade the masses from revolting by promising them a better existence, or a happier existence after death so that they can be…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) we are obliged to his proposal now. He has created a philosophy, which is being enforced by killing, by threatening.

Śyāmasundara: And he promises them a better future.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Śyāmasundara: In the future it will be better.

Prabhupāda: So, he is doing (indistinct) more than the (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes, exactly. So his is a religion also. His philosophy is like a religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) he condemns.

Prabhupāda: Religion means (indistinct) he cannot give up, that is religion.

Śyāmasundara: He thinks everything can be changed, that nothing is permanent.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) our proposition, religion means dharma, the (indistinct) which you cannot give up. (indistinct) Just like I am standing on this floor. It is not possible to stand without this floor. I cannot say that I can stand without floor.

Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) and it is not possible. Similarly, one cannot give up his religion. And what is that religion? That religion is service. If that is religion, then he wants to give service to the humanity by his proposition, and that is his religion. Why he is giving this philosophy, writing this book? He wants to give some service to the humanity. That is (the) idea. So everyone is trying to give some service. The father is trying to give some service (to) the family, the statesman is trying to give some service to his country. (indistinct) Then he is also trying to give some service to the whole humanity. So this service spirit is always there. Either you become a Karl Marx, or you become Stalin, or you become Gandhi, or you become whatever you may be, the service spirit is there. In the family also, the father wants to give service. In state also, the prime minister wants to give some service. So this service spirit will be there. Now, we are giving service to so many things, and we are becoming confused and (indistinct). Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that you give up all other service, give Me service, I will (indistinct). You cannot remain without giving service. That's a fact. Either you give service to your country or to your family or even you have to give service to a dog. That you cannot do. Therefore the service is not… You may be a Hindu,you may be a Muslim, you may be anything, but that service spirit is there. And that service spirit is religion. But actually, by rendering service to so many objectives, we are frustrated. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66], you give service to Me and you'll be (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: The Communists, and even to a certain extent the capitalists, believe that service for the production of goods is the only real service. So they condemn us because we are not adding anything to production. We are not working, we are not building factories. So they condemn us.

Prabhupāda: How they can condemn? We are giving service to the humanity for better knowledge. Then high-court judge, he is not producing any grain in the field, so he is not giving any service? He is sitting on the chair and getting(?) five thousand, ten thousand (indistinct). You can say, "Oh, he is not giving any service, he is simply sitting in the chair."

Śyāmasundara: In one way he is, because he is enforcing the law that helps the…

Prabhupāda: What it may be, personally, if you simply think that this man comes in the office and sits down in the chair for three hours and he draws salary of six thousand.

Śyāmasundara: He protects my property though.

Prabhupāda: That means not that everyone has to work in the factory to produce.

Śyāmasundara: But he protects what I produce.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means brain is required how to give protection. So that is also service. But his theory is unless you give your manual labor in the factory or in the field, you are not doing service. He would simply give credit to the coolies and workers, that's all. But because his basic principle is coolie, coolie philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Peasants, they're called.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Indian man: Some time one thing happened…

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: One Marwari first of all thought that his manager was getting two thousand rupees and doing nothing so he said, "I will do all the manager's work," and he (indistinct) scientist, engineer like. So he saved the two thousand rupees a month. After a couple of months that (indistinct) and that nobody could get right. And that man was (indistinct). Then he told that Marwari that you were giving me three thousand(indistinct).

Prabhupāda: There is a story that one king, he had ministers, a prime minister, so other salaried workers complained, "Sir, we are actually working. This minister is giving nothing, you are giving him so much salary. We are so (indistinct). So, "Oh, all right." So he called the minister, and brought one elephant. (indistinct), "Please immediately take this elephant and let me know what is the weight. Take this elephant. Weigh him." So they went to… All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weigh? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So within six minutes he said, "It is twenty mounds," and like that. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised: "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that "How did you weigh? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weigh the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark, and I marked it, and then, after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They agreed, "Yes." Buddhir yasya bālaṁ tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto bālam: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Kṛṣṇa or His representative.

Śyāmasundara: So religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is religion. He does not know, and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service… Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not know. Therefore Kṛṣṇa gives us indication that "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.

Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson… He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the train, and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich also." No. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.

Prabhupāda: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all. From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man, and his followers must be all fools. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He said that religion is made up by the capitalists to keep the…

Prabhupāda: That means he does not know religion, what is religion, and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Yes. Even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it is (indistinct), it is all broken, still, all over the world-I have traveled-they are adoring India.

Śyāmasundara: But their explanation is that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.

Prabhupāda: But still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that "If you want to study religion, it is India."

Śyāmasundara: But more people go from India there to learn science.

Indian man: No, no.

Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.

Indian man: Not only that, you know. Gandhi told the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem(?) went to London, he was told that "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping off trees."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Darwin's theory.

Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" It is a very good answer, yes.

Śyāmasundara: So he said that God does not create man, that man creates God.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is being proved by his talks. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is the test. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. Mūrkha, you can… A mūrkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen, but a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man, one can understand, "Oh, he is a rascal." And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand, "Oh, he is learned." So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.

Śyāmasundara: So his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas, but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history…

Prabhupāda: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution. There were so many revolutions.

Śyāmasundara: He studied the revolutions, and he said that history moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap. So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.

Prabhupāda: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions, because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is… Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen You." So unless one comes to God, the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but… We don't expect that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be taken by everyone, but within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: The Hare Kṛṣṇa revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He said that…

Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: [SB 7.5.31] "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Viṣṇu." Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come… We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back… Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam [Bg. 15.6]. When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be… That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."

Śyāmasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I can take it in this sense. If the Communist idea is spiritualized. So long the Communist idea will remain materialized, it is not final. We have got Communistic idea. Just like we believe… They believe that the state is the owner; we believe God is the owner. So this state is a small state, Russian state. They can be satisfied, but because it is wrong application… State is not the owner. Real owner is God. So from state, when they come to the conclusion, "Not the state but God is owner," then their Communistic idea will be fulfilled. And as they say that everything must be done for the state, we are actually teaching perfect Communism. We are teaching that Kṛṣṇa is the owner. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the supreme enjoyer. Everything is…" Just like in our society we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa because we know Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. Sarva-loka-maheś… He is the proprietor. So this Communistic idea is vague, but it can be perfected when they come to the conclusion, according to the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; He is the supreme friend of everyone. Then the people will be happy: "Oh, we have got a friend like Kṛṣṇa." Just like Arjuna was certain that "Kṛṣṇa is my charioteer. Oh, I am victorious." And it is confirmed, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ: [Bg. 18.78] "Where Yogeśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is there," yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ, tatra śrīr vijayo, "there victory and everything is there." So this is an idea. This idea can be welcomed provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state by God. Then it is…

Śyāmasundara: Well, that's pretty unlikely because they consider that reality is composed of what appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: That is not reality. Then why there is revolution? If it is reality, then why it is being changed? So in this material world there is a vague idea, reality. Nothing reality. Everything false. Śaṅkarācārya therefore says, jagat mithyā: "It is false." There is no reality. What is reality? What is definition of reality?

Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.

Prabhupāda: Well, your senses are not reality.

Śyāmasundara: And economic determination.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes… You are thinking "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?

Śyāmasundara: He says whatever is useful…

Prabhupāda: Useful, useful… So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?

Śyāmasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.

Prabhupāda: That's all… They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only the by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses.

Śyāmasundara: He says that if there is anything beyond the appearances, physical world, it is also physical, that everything is physical, everything is material.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Physical… Even physical, you do not know. Even this physical manifestation of this universe, what do you know about this? You do not know. There are so many planets. You cannot go even in the moon planet.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's only necessary to know what applies to us, what…

Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of reality. Don't talk of reality.

Śyāmasundara: I only need to know that which is useful to me.

Prabhupāda: That use, it is for you but because your knowledge is so poor. Just like a low class man, he will think, "This police constable is government." Because he is a low class man, the police constable takes him to the custody, and he is controlled by the police cons…, so he is father and mother. But for a high personality the police constable is nothing. There are so many others. So this reality is relative according to the person. He is a man with poor fund of knowledge. Therefore immediate effective, that is reality. Just like child. He thinks a lozenges which is two cent worth, he thinks it is reality. But to his father that two cents worth lozenges… (aside:) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. To his father, he will think, "What is this lozenges?" The child will ap… "Oh, father, it is so nice. It is heaven. It is so sweet." That means reality according to the person… So he is a man with poor fund of knowledge; therefore he is accepting reality which is giving him some immediate profit. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Just like he considers Kant's idea, "the things in themselves," to be "the things for us,"…

Prabhupāda: (aside) You can change that.

Śyāmasundara: …instead of something existing in itself, that "everything exists for us and everything exists for my use."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animal also thinks that "This is reality." "I have got one goat," a tiger thinks, "to eat. Oh, this is reality."

Śyāmasundara: This is just for me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is… These things are discussed in Upaniṣads. The students asks, "What is reality?" He says that "Think over." Now came, that "Eatables are reality," because he's a small child. So he says, "No, this is not reality. You think over." In this way, this way, one after, one after another, one after another, he finally came to Brahman. So this reality differs according to knowledge. Kṛṣṇa can… The same example: a child. Two things: one lugdoo and one one-thousand-dollar note-which one he will take? He will take this lugdoo. For him this is reality. He does not know the value of this paper. But for his father, which one of them, he can immediately… So reality means according to your knowledge. So these are poor class of men; therefore they are always talking of economic production and this and that, the immediate… That's all.

Śyāmasundara: In fact, when he says that what is practical is the criterion for truth, that is also relative, what is practical. Just like for the child the practical thing is the laddu.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. For a child the lugdoo is reality, but that does not mean that is equal to that one thousand dollar note.

Śyāmasundara: So we have to find out what is really practical.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, practical, both things practical. But according to the person, the value is different.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. But isn't there an absolute value?

Prabhupāda: The absolute value is God. That is division (?). Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. That is our objective. We take in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The original source of everything." Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi: "I meditate upon the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth."

Śyāmasundara: And that is also practical?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Why not practical? Do you mean to say that you are, all Kṛṣṇa conscious people, you are after something impractical?

Śyāmasundara: Well, they will say…

Prabhupāda: They may say. What is your position? They may say.

Śyāmasundara: The practical thing is that it makes us happy.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: The practical result is that we are happy.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, unless you feel practical, why you are after it? That is my proposal. They may say whatever nonsense they can say.

Śyāmasundara: So the practical result should be satisfaction, happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are eating, but somebody says, "What you are doing?" But by eating, if you feel satisfaction of your hunger, that is practical. You haven't got to take certificate from others. You are eating; if you feel satisfaction, if you feel strong, that is the…

Śyāmasundara: So these men, both of them, they have a great faith that philosophy can change the world.

Prabhupāda: And this is the real philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is real… What is the original source? This is real philosophy. What is that Absolute Truth? Everything is relative truth. What is the Absolute Truth? That is philosophy, Vedānta philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: That has social effects that could change the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This, our whole Indian, Vedic civilization, is standing on Vedānta philosophy. And Bhāgavata is explanation of Vedānta philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: So the source of everything is…

Prabhupāda: Everything is there, ideal.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all today. Tomorrow we will discuss Mao Tse Tung, the Chinese Communist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Mao.

Śyāmasundara: Mao. (end)

TSETUNG.SYA

Mao Tse Tung

Śyāmasundara: He stresses two aspects (in the) theory of dialectical materialism. The one on which he placed the most emphasis is the aspect of the pragmatic element of philosophy, that philosophy must have practical effect. And the other aspect is the contradiction between capitalism and communism, and this contradiction involves conflicts and eventual revolution. He agrees with Hegel that without conflict, there can be no progress. Do we accept this? Without conflict, there is no progress?

Prabhupāda: Our Kurukṣetra battle is a conflict between Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. So after the conflict, the Pāṇḍavas became the kings. So that is admitted; without conflict, you cannot make progress.

Śyāmasundara: Is that true on every level of…?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …chemical law? (?)

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Mind is saṅkalpa and vikalpa. Mind's business is to accept something and reject something. So in this way, accepting and rejecting, if the mind is sound, then we come to some conclusion by intelligence. Accepting and rejecting, this is conflict. Then by intelligence we take something out of this conflict.

Śyāmasundara: So this idea that no progress is made in any…, except through conflict.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: How is that exactly?

Prabhupāda: This is conflict. Conflict means if I don't agree with you and if you do not agree with me, that is conflict.

Śyāmasundara: So some progress is made from that conflict?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the two can(?) fight or conflict and one judgement giver.

Śyāmasundara: And this is progress.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this morning I was explaining that your statement should be according to the standard process, vidhi-mārga. So sādhu-śāstra-guru, three authorities: saintly persons, scripture, and spiritual master. So all of them should be, should agree. There is a con… Just like two litigants, they go to the court and the judges give judgement. Similarly, whenever there is conflict, to come to a conclusion, we must refer to sādhu, śāstra, and guru. Then we get the right judgement.

Śyāmasundara: So his idea of conflict is on the social level, between classes of men. It also carries over into historical levels…

Prabhupāda: Well, that conflict is no use. Social… So far the modern society is concerned, it is based on mental speculation. There is no standard. Some society has a different standard, another society has a different standard. But none of them are based on some authority. Therefore such conflict cannot bring you into some right conflict if both of them are wrong. The so-called capitalist and so-called communist, they are all on the wrong basis. So by such conflict you cannot come to a recognized standard.

Śyāmasundara: So by "conflict" you mean the mind's engagement with…

Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say that… Just like two parties fighting on some point. They come to the court and the judgement is given by the judge. So the decision is made on the judgement. Not by simply conflict. If two parties are fighting for life together, they cannot come to the conclusion because they are fighting on the wrong basis.

Śyāmasundara: So this theory of Mao Tse Tung actually rises out of Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Darwin's theory we have already discussed, and that is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: "Might makes right."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They think whoever wins in a battle of ideas must have the right idea.

Prabhupāda: No. That is based on "might is right," but we do not accept this theory. We say, "right is might," not "might is right." Yes. If you are right, then you have got might. Otherwise, simply if you have got might, that is not right.

Śyāmasundara: You were speaking earlier about the conflict of the mind, mental conflict, judging…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Judgement is by the intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: So whenever there is perception coming into the mind, there is a conflict?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the intelligence. Just like in the same example. Whether it is to be done, it is not to be done, then your intelligence gives you advice that "In the Vedas this is the right point." So you accept it. Intelligence gives you advice that "In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said like this." Then we accept it. Then that conflict is nice.

Śyāmasundara: Some Christians say that in the mind there is a struggle between God and the devil, and this conflict is always continually going on.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is wrong thing. God does not come down to your mind, God and devil. That is mind's action. Sometimes he accepts, sometimes he rejects. So either you can say God and devil or whatever. That is mind's business. But that is not final conclusion. When you apply your intelligence with reference to the sādhu and śāstra and make a conclusion, that is right.

Śyāmasundara: So on this level progress is made through conflict.

Prabhupāda: Conflict with intelligence. That means conflict is in the lower stage. So to mitigate this conflict you have to take consultation from the higher stage. That is intelligence. That Mao's theory is simply by conflict of the mental concoctioners. That will not come to a conclusion. That will never be right conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that all political power comes out of the barrel of a gun. Comes from the barrel of a gun.

Prabhupāda: Because he is rude. He cannot have that there may be, amongst the sober gentlemen, the gun is reasoning. And for the crude rascals argumentum vaculam. Of course, the gun reason is sometimes needed when the other party is completely animal. But if both of them are animals, then what further decision can come? You see? Therefore our conclusion is taken from śāstra. The gun is used also in terms of śāstra. Just like Kṛṣṇa first of all wanted to settle up the fight, the opposing elements, the Kurus and Pāṇḍavas. He personally became a messenger and personally requested Duryodhana that "All right. Settle up things. They are kṣatriyas. They cannot take up the business of a brāhmaṇa or a vaiśya. Give them five villages, let them rule, and they will be satisfied." But he said, "Oh, what to speak of five villages, I cannot spare the, that small portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle." Then Kṛṣṇa said, "Yes. Then you do not come to reason? Then let us turn to weapon." So this śāstra and śastra. When śāstra fails, then according to śāstra, there is śastra. Śastra means weapon. Both of them come from the śas-dhātu. Śas-dhātu, from śas-dhātu we take śāstra, śastra, śāsana, śiṣya, like that. It is coming from the same root.

Śyāmasundara: What is that root?

Prabhupāda: Śas. Śas means control. From śas-dhātu… Śiṣya means who voluntarily accepts the spiritual master's ruling. That is called śiṣya, disciple. From the same śas-dhātu. The spiritual master rules over him according to śāstra, and he accepts voluntarily. So conflict there is, but the mediator is śas.

Śyāmasundara: Controller.

Prabhupāda: Controller. Otherwise, there is no end of struggle if you don't accept an authorized mediator.

Śyāmasundara: This Mao Tse Tung…

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad…, yah śāstra-vidhim. Śāstra from that śas-dhātu. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya, giving it up, decides by his whims, na siddhim avāpnoti, they'll never get any siddhi, perfection. Therefore the śāstra should be mediator. But these people have no śāstras. They have got simply that barrel of gun. That's all. And that is very rude. And it will never come to perfection. For the temporary time, this party may win or that party may win. That will never… That is the position in the modern world. They have no authoritative śāstra. They manufacture their own way, and therefore there is no peace. First World War, Second World War, Third World War, and there cannot be any peace. As soon as you become strong, you declare war. Hitler thought, "I am now strong. Let me declare war." And another strong party, America came, Russia came. He was killed. So this is no conclusion. And even after Hitler's being killed, there is no conclusion. So this sort of conflict will never bring any peace. That will go on. That is struggle for existence. That is fighting like animals. Two dogs fighting, two hogs fighting, but that is not conclusion. That fighting will go on so long people will remain as dogs and hogs. That will go on. There is no question of peace.

Śyāmasundara: So real progress only comes through…

Prabhupāda: Authoritative decision. If we accept that, then that is real conclusion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is conflict, and you say that…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Conflict is always there. But you cannot come to the conclusion unless you take the right decision from the authority. Two litigants, there is conflict. I say that "You do this." You say, "No, why can I do it? Our agreement is different." So there is conflict. So you go to the court and take the right decision from the judge.

Śyāmasundara: He attacks speculators and especially empiricists, or those who draw conclusions of reality through their fragmentary sense perception.

Prabhupāda: He is also doing that. He is also one of them. Because he says that ultimately the barrel… What is that?

Śyāmasundara: That all political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.

Prabhupāda: That's all. He is one of them.

Śyāmasundara: Speculator.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that the criterion for truth is man's social practice, that it has proven over…

Prabhupāda: But what is that social practice? What is the standard of social practice? You manufacture…

Śyāmasundara: Whatever is practical for the most people's happiness, that is truth.

Prabhupāda: So practical happiness, that differs between persons. Just like ordinarily in your country boys and girls meet very intimately, without any restriction. But we say, "No mixing." So which is practical? That is according to circumstance? For our purpose, if we allow illegitimate sex, then there is no spiritual progress. Therefore this stoppage is practical. And because others, they have no spiritual idea, they think, "Oh, why not? Why the sex urges should be restricted? Let us enjoy it. It is enjoyment." They're animals. So which one ms practical? This one is practical or… That practical means according to the aim and object.

Śyāmasundara: Relative.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if one understands what is spiritual progress, what is his need, then he'll understand that these are all practical.

Śyāmasundara: Their idea of what was practical would mean that which gives the most material benefit to the most people.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Therefore they are suffering. The whole world is suffering. They do not know what is real progress or what the human life is meant for. They are taking human life is as good as hogs' life or animals' life. We don't take it. We say the human life has got a special importance for spiritual realization. But these people, they have no such idea. So their practical purpose, our practical purpose is different. They are ignorant. What is the aim of life, they do not know. They take animal life and human life is the same. Simply it should be a little polished. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all ideas or theories find their verification or their fulfillment through social practice. In other words, if something is a theory, if it's practiced and found to be true, then it is true.

Prabhupāda: Here it is true. In India still, those who are spiritualists. We have seen. Now, they are tolerating severe cold without any difficulty. For a materialist it is very difficult. From practical also, those who are advanced in spiritual life, they have no disease practically. They don't go to doctor. So these are practical. How can you deny these are not practical? They can live any condition, without any food, without any vitamin. Are these not practical? So we take that advancement of spiritual life makes our life more comfortable. That is practical. Without being dependent on doctors and this vitamin and that, so many, so many things. That is practical. If I have to depend on so many things, then where is the practical? Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that if you can… [break]

Śyāmasundara: He says that natural laws and ideas, verification of ideas, comes about through class struggle, material production and scientific experiment. That which we know for sure, certainty.

Prabhupāda: (to guest) How are you?

Śyāmasundara: Certain knowledge is gathered from these three sources: class struggle, material production, and scientific experiment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But so-called scientists, they sometimes put forward wrong theories.

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that the proof is if it works socially, if it has a social effect.

Prabhupāda: That I am coming to. Suppose… Just like a living man and a dead man. So what is the scientific statement about this dead man? What do they say?

Śyāmasundara: Well, that he's just a lump of chemicals.

Prabhupāda: All right. Then if you are scientist, then bring that chemical and fulfill it. That is experiment. If that experiment is not possible, then what is the use of your scientific statement, "It is loss of chemicals"?

Śyāmasundara: The idea is that the theories are not practical unless they are tested socially, unless there is social benefit.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of social. You say that this body is dead because some chemicals are wanting. So you should make experiment that such chemicals be replaced and the body may come out again in life. Then your scientific statement is… Otherwise, it is most unscientific. So how to test the scientist? His theory is not practical. You say that the dead man means some chemical wanting. So you put that chemical. Just like when a motorcar is stopped, so the engineer comes, a mechanic comes, he says, "This part is broken. It should be replaced." All right, replace it and car moves. But you say that "This part is wanting; therefore this man is dead." Now you replace that part. Then it will be scientific because it will be proved by experiment.

Śyāmasundara: Well, speaking more of, for instance, Marx's theory, that…

Prabhupāda: Now, first of all… He said scientific. So I mean to say that so-called scientists are imperfect. So what is the value of such scientific statement? There are so many scientists. Their statements are imperfect. Or other scientists differ. Then what is real scientific? You are scientist and he is scientist. I am talking on the scientific… Experiment. He says experiment. So when a scientist says that "This is wanting," then by experiment let him prove it that actually this is wanting.

Śyāmasundara: Well, still, his basic idea is that all theories, all natural laws are proven in practice, social practice, that… For instance, Marx's idea that capital is not necessary for production, that profit is not necessary for production. It's proven by the communist state where there is no profit-taking, there is no capital making, and still the wheels(?) of production go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that sense is by nature's law. But artificially we have adopted so many things. That means, nature's law means God's law. So God's law is that you have got land. You till and you get production. But if you cannot till personally, then you have to employ somebody else. So you have to pay him. Therefore you must require profit.

Śyāmasundara: But excess profit, excess profit is taken by the owner…

Prabhupāda: Anyway, I have hired one man to work for me. I have to pay him and therefore I require profit.

Śyāmasundara: But isn't the tendency there to exploit the man and take more profit?

Prabhupāda: That must be. Not only the capitalists exploit, the laborers also exploit.

Śyāmasundara: Laborers exploit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. One laborer is charging five rupees, another laborer is charging ten rupees. That profiteering, exploiting tendency is everywhere. Why the laborers strike? To make more profit. Do you mean to say because he is laborer he is free from this profit-making desires?

Śyāmasundara: But their idea is that if the means of production are owned by the people, that this condition, this social condition, will wither away.

Prabhupāda: That was perfect in Vedic system, that you… The land is supposed to belong to the government or to the king. The king gives you the land that "You make production and give me tax, one-fourth. That's all." So there is no question of profit. If you have produced one kilo, give one-fourth kilo to the king as tax. That is real social system. Actually, according to our Vedic system, everything belongs to God and the king is supposed to be representative of God to manage things. So for his managerial work he requires some money. Therefore I have taken some land for my livelihood. So whatever production is there, I pay one-fourth to the king for management. This is nice system. As soon as the tax is realized in terms of pound, shillings, pence, whole difficulty arises. I have produced ten mounds of rice and out of that one-fourth I give to the government or to the king. So I have no anxiety. If I produce twenty mounds, I give one-fourth. If I produce ten mounds, I give one-fourth. If I don't produce I don't give. This is perfect system.

Pañcadraviḍa: So if I give one quarter to the king that's the representative of God, what if the brāhmaṇa and the spiritual master…

Prabhupāda: That we shall talk later on.

Śyāmasundara: This Mao Tse Tung believes in using a constant ideological struggle as an accepted…

Prabhupāda: No, no. This ideology has no struggle. Whatever is produced, you pay one-fourth. There is no question of struggle. If I have to pay some fixed tax, ten rupees, for this land I have secured, but if I don't produce, I have no ten rupees, there is struggle. Where I get this ten rupees? Then I have to take loan from somebody else. That brings(?) my anxiety. But if this system is accepted, then I, if I produce, I give you one-fourth; if I don't produce, I have no anxiety. That is perfect system.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the constant ideological propaganda, you have to remind the people of the fears behind the practice. If there is risk,(?) something, you have to remind them.

Prabhupāda: But why this is a constant struggle for ideological? You accept this ideal. So there is no anxiety. If I produce, I pay. If I don't produce, I don't pay. Is it not better?

Śyāmasundara: The idea is…

Prabhupāda: Why I shall develop an ideological perfection by conflict, by struggle, by talking in the parliament, and talking to the leaders, and… Make this simple method that whatever you produce, you give me one-fourth. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He believes that whatever is produced, all should be given. Everything.

Prabhupāda: Why all should be given? That means he's killed my independence.

Śyāmasundara: There should be no proprietorship. There should be no private property.

Prabhupāda: No. Proprietor should be allotted proprietor, that I belong… You give me… The king or the government gives me this land. So that is my proprietorship. Just like I have taken this house. So it is higher proprietorship. I do not allow anybody to come here. That is trespassing.

Śyāmasundara: Even the farms in China are collective. The people work together, cooperate to produce such and such products. They give the whole product to the state. In return, they receive their lodging, their cloths.

Prabhupāda: But that will never give them satisfaction. That is artificial.

Śyāmasundara: So they need constant ideological brainwashing to maintain this state of activity.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. If I know that "This land belongs to me, government has allotted me," so I can develop in my own way. I have got freedom. Wholesale dependence, what is the value of this?

Śyāmasundara: He believes that that's a false idea, this idea of freedom or proprietorship. That it only leads to exploitation and misery for others.

Prabhupāda: Misery for others?

Śyāmasundara: If I have proprietorship of something, then that means someone else is deprived of that.

Prabhupāda: Why deprived? He has got proprietorship. You have got proprietorship, I have got proprietorship. Why you are deprived? Because government has given me some land, it does not mean that a fellow subject, my brother, should not be given. As I have got, he has got. Therefore our Upaniṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. "Whatever is given to you by God, you be satisfied." That is Vedic system. Therefore you find, a poor man is also satisfied and a rich man is also satisfied. The poor man thinks that "God has given me this; so I must be satisfied with this and execute my God consciousness." And the rich man also thinks that "God has given me this; so let me be satisfied with this and save my time." There is no competition.

Śyāmasundara: Under this philosophy, the rich man does not exploit the worker, take his work for profit?

Prabhupāda: Sometimes the worker wants rich man's exploitation. If he has no work, if the rich man does not give him work, he thinks unemployed. You have seen practically; the Africans, by serving, they are more satisfied. Just like a dog. A dog having a master is more happy, and a dog having no master is a street dog. He is unhappy. So there are certain stages where one is happy having a master, having a protector. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. A śūdra mentality. Because he has no higher intelligence. He has to depend on some good master. That is his happiness. But when the master exploits him, that is a different thing. But one class should be master, another class should be servant-that is nature's arrangement.

Śyāmasundara: Well, this Mao Tse Tung's (sic:) systemology, or his method of knowing truth, of knowing things, is that first of all there is the perceptual, or the phenomenal, and this becomes the conceptual, or inferential. In other words, if you…, you can condition people to a certain type of truth by presenting some phenomenon repeatedly, over and over again, until they accept it, they make a conception: "This is the truth."

Prabhupāda: So that is our process. We say that perceptual fact is that we are controlled. Every one of us, controlled. Who can deny it? Why you are running on this fan? Because you are controlled. There is excessive heat controlling you. Therefore I am trying to counteract it. In every step you are controlled by the laws of nature. So how he thinks that he is independent? Why does he manufacture so many so-called laws of independence? In fact he is controlled. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. He is in contact with some modes of material nature, and he is controlled by them. So why does he not accept that "I am not independent, I am controlled. The basic principle is that I am controlled." Then if one is actually conversant with the laws of control, then he makes adjustment according to that. One being controlled, how he can become controller? This is phenomenon. Where one is… Let any man come and say boldly that "I am not controlled." Who is that man? Find out any man. We are sitting, so many men here. Let any one of us declare that "I am not controlled." So therefore basic principle is that "I am controlled." So how this position of being controlled can be perfect, that should be our study. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We say that you are controlled. So the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. So you voluntarily surrender yourself, that "Kṛṣṇa, from this day… I was struggling against Your laws. Now I fully surrender."

Śyāmasundara: So his idea is that if you present a certain idea to a certain group of people often enough, more and more…

Prabhupāda: That we are doing. We are repeatedly said that "You are controlled, you are controlled, you are controlled." (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: But what if you said… Like Mao Tse Tung might say, "I am the leader. I am the leader. I am the leader. I am the leader."

Prabhupāda: That is false. You are not leader.

Śyāmasundara: But they will accept it as true.

Prabhupāda: Why Mao becoming old? He is controlled. Is it that he will not die? Then he is controlled.

Śyāmasundara: He may die, but they will still accept him as the leader.

Prabhupāda: Well… Accept leader, a group of rogues and thieves accept another big thief as leader. (laughter) That is another thing. You see? That does not mean he is leader?

Śyāmasundara: So the nature of truth is not always derived from phenomenon. In other words, I can tell these people that this certain rock is God often enough so that they will eventually say, "Yes, this rock is God."

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say the rock is God. We say God is God. We are not so foolish that we say rock is God.

Śyāmasundara: But if everything was telling me from the moment of my birth, my parents, slogans on the walls, everything was saying…

Prabhupāda: No. Even if you have not heard… But you cannot change that opinion. Suppose my parents have taught me that "There is God and we are controlled," so you cannot change this. You say that you are not controlled. You prove that you are not controlled. Then you can say, "My parents have taught me wrongly." You are becoming old. You are becoming diseased. You will have to die. You have taken birth under certain system. So you are controlled. My parents have taught me that "There is God, who is supreme controller, and we are all controlled." Now you change this first of all. You are talking so nice thing, but you first of all say that you are not controlled. That is our proposition. If you say that you are not controlled, then you are mad.

Śyāmasundara: No. I would admit that I am controlled. Everyone in my Communist state is controlled because we work under the…

Prabhupāda: Apart from Communist state, by nature's law… You have spoken about nature's law. So we are controlled by the nature's law. Who can deny it? When there is severe cold, I am controlled. When there is severe heat, I am controlled. When there is epidemic, I am controlled. When there is famine, I am controlled. When there is flood, I am controlled. So how you can say that you are not controlled? You are not independent. The basic principle is that you are not independent.

Śyāmasundara: Mao Tse Tung uses this as the basis of his…

Prabhupāda: Basis is that you are controlled. That is mistake.

Śyāmasundara: His methodology is to present slogans to the people…

Prabhupāda: But you may manufacture slogans. First of all, let us talk on the principles. Everyone is controlled. How Mao can deny it?

Śyāmasundara: He wants to be the controller. He can control everyone's…

Prabhupāda: He is himself controlled. How he can be controller? If you are blind, how you can lead? I am also blind. You must have eyes; then you can control.

Śyāmasundara: He thinks in this philosophy, Marxist philosophy, that that is the truth so that he can present slogans to the people in such a way that they become controlled by that truth.

Prabhupāda: What is the value of your slogan if you are yourself controlled? Our point is that if you are yourself blind, how you can lead other blind men?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he's convinced that that is the truth. So he…

Prabhupāda: He is convinced, but where is the proof that his leadership should be accepted?

Śyāmasundara: That it works socially. That people are becoming happy under this philosophy.

Prabhupāda: But shall not be happy. If I am given under the control of Communist government, I shall not be happy. We were there for a week in Moscow. We were not at all happy. That boy who came to us, he is not happy. So where is your perfection? You make everyone happy; then it is all right. If you think that "I am happy, my brother is happy. That's all right. Let others go to hell," that is another thing.

Revatīnandana: But Mao will say that the Russian Communism is religionism, that it is not real Communism. Therefore they are unhappy.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. The Russian Communism is failing; similarly, some days after, his communism also will fail. Because they are all imperfect. To criticize another man does not mean you are perfect. That is a different thing. You have to prove that you are perfect. "Judge not others lest you may be judged."

Devotee: "Lest ye be judged and found wanting."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is not Mao is a very perfect man, his theory is perfect, he is better than… It is simply mental speculation.

Śyāmasundara: But he examines his theory, and he sees that the nature of his theory or the nature of things is this conflict. This is the nature of things.

Prabhupāda: That we have already talked; there is conflict. Conflict is going on.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that there are two types of conflict in social structure. One is between communists and their enemies, such as the U.S. imperialists; and those within the Communist party itself.

Prabhupāda: So… There… In communism… That means there are enemies. However perfect you may be, you have got enemies. Outside, inside both. Then what is your perfection?

Śyāmasundara: Well, he says that through the Communist system we can…

Prabhupāda: That enemy, everyone is… That you are enemy of the capitalists. Similarly, your enemy is capitalist.

Śyāmasundara: So the whole idea is to make the whole world Communist and there won't be any more enemies.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why the world… First of all, why the whole world will accept this Communism unless it is perfect? If it is imperfect, how do you expect that the whole world will accept it?

Śyāmasundara: He says that it is perfect, but there may be some conflict within the party because someone has not understood the philosophy perfectly.

Prabhupāda: Or perhaps you have not understood your philosophy; therefore you are so much optimistic.

Revatīnandana: He says there will be struggle against the opposing side. It will overpower the opposing side, make everything communist, and then by interaction of…

Prabhupāda: That is in every sphere. Why communist?

Śyāmasundara: He has another slogan to resolve conflicts within the party of "Unity, criticism, unity." A dialectic. "Unity, criticism… The thesis is unity, the antithesis is criticism…"

Prabhupāda: Then what is his reply to this dialectic proposition, that I say that "You, Mr. Mao, you are not independent. You are controlled."

Śyāmasundara: He'll say, "Yes, I am controlled by the higher truth of the socialist law, communistic law."

Prabhupāda: No, even there is no communistic law, still you are controlled, apart from the communistic law. You are controlled by the nature's law. How you can avoid it?

Śyāmasundara: Well, being only a combination of matter, I must be born and I must die, everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you want to be independent. You want to be uncontrolled. That is not possible. Why it is not possible? And if you are controlled, who is controlling you? What is the background of that control? So these answers they cannot give. They avoid.

Śyāmasundara: They are not interested because they say that…

Prabhupāda: They are not interested, that is not a fact. If I challenge you… Just like here is Mr. (indistinct), a lawyer He's… In the law court he is asking one question. If the other party says, "I am not interested," that will not be sufficient. Do you think? (laughs) You must be interested. You are in the law court.

Śyāmasundara: He says the only criterion for truth is its practical application in society.

Prabhupāda: The practical… First of all, you prove practically that you are independent.

Śyāmasundara: It wouldn't make any difference because…

Prabhupāda: Why not difference? My point is if your basic principle is wrong, then how you can make a perfect proposal?

Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not concerned with questions about my origin or about the nature of matter except that…

Prabhupāda: Then you are interested in the superficial things.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Only as it applies to society.

Prabhupāda: That superficial means it is changing. It will never be perfect. If you take superficial thing, then it is changing always. That is nature's law.

Śyāmasundara: My only interest is in the dictatorship of the proletariat, that everyone should have an equal opportunity, equal pay, equal property, everything.

Prabhupāda: That is theory, but it will never be successful. Why in Russia there is manager's pay and the worker's pay? Why not equal pay?

Revatīnandana: He says, "Abolish that." Mao says, "Abolish that system."

Devotee: No, Russia is not a Communist state.

Revatīnandana: The Chinese scoff at the Russians, that they are not Communist. They say we will not abide by this different manager… Only one pay scale for everybody.

Prabhupāda: First of all, this Communistic idea came from Russia and China imitated.

Devotee: Well, it came out of the proponent philosophers.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, the Russia is supposed to be leader of the Communistic idea.

Revatīnandana: They don't accept anymore. There is Mao…

Prabhupāda: Similarly, sometimes after, he will not be accepted. That is my proposition. As Russia is not accepted now, some days after, he will not be accepted. Similarly, your also theory will fail. That is my proposition. Because I challenge that your theory is not perfect. Because Russia's theory was not perfect, it has failed. Similarly, I say your theory is also imperfect, therefore it will fail. Anything imperfect will fail. That is my proposition.

Revatīnandana: His propaganda is that it is perfect because it has made the Chinese people…

Prabhupāda: Propaganda, by propaganda you can do anything. That is different thing. But fact is fact. If you theory is not perfect, you make however propaganda, it will fail.

Śyāmasundara: But our people are all employed, they are all clothed nicely…

Prabhupāda: Temporarily it may be very glittering. Just like a polished thing, temporarily it looks very brilliant, shine. But in course of time it will become black. That's all. Because it is not actually shining. Gold shining and artificial shining, there is difference.

Śyāmasundara: He says that these class conflicts can be resolved through prosecution and repression of counter-revolutionaries at home, and…

Prabhupāda: That is going on. It is not a new thing, that in order to establish peace you kill somebody.

Śyāmasundara: If there's any counter-revolutionaries, you prosecute or repress them.

Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is not a new thing. That is going on in the animal kingdom. What is the use of your philosophy? Without having philosophy, this is going on in the animal kingdom. So what is the use of your philosophy? By philosophy, you give something which will not create any conflict. But by conflict, by crushing, by subduing, if you want to establish your peace, then what is the value of this peace?

Śyāmasundara: He says we also have to prevent foreign intervention.

Prabhupāda: If your theory is perfect, why there should be foreign intervention?

Revatīnandana: How foreign intervention will be dangerous to you if you are perfect?

Śyāmasundara: Well, because the capitalists are…

Prabhupāda: That is bias. Your people also become capitalist. Why Kruschev was driven away? Because he was becoming… So because you are all imperfect, you think in a different way, but ultimately you will find that it is useless. Childish. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Now they are making friends with the capitalist materialists. The capitalist materialists were flown to Peking recently to save Mao Tse Tung's life because he was dying of a major heart attack. So they called a major scientist from America to help save his life. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Revatīnandana: Now they have invited the American president to come there for talks. The imperfect one, they are inviting to talk with him now for some compromise.

Prabhupāda: This is described in Bhāgavata: punah punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], "chewing the chewed." Once it is chewed, it is thrown away, and then again, "Let me see if there is any juice." (laughter) Chewing the chewed. Or in plain words, mental concoction. The mind's business is acceptance and rejection. First of all, reject American capitalists; then again accept for consulting. That means they are hovering on the mental plane. They have no intelligence. In big scale, accepting and rejecting. That's all. It is the business of the mind. As in your personal mind you see, you accept something immediately and again reject, "No, no, it is not good." The same thing is going on in a bigger scale. That's all. They are not… Just like a pickpocket and a big scientific thief. Huh? They are trying to… Modern, scientifically, they want to rob the bank. They set the bomb. And pickpocket is satisfied by taking one paisa from your pocket. But the principle is stealing. Because you are very organized thief, it does not mean from the eyes of the law you are honest. You cannot say in the court that "I am organized thief. I am scientific thief, and he is a pickpocket." In the eyes of the law you are also punishable, he is also punishable. That's all. So they are, I mean to say, large-scale speculators. That's all. But it is, after all, speculation. It has no fact.

Śyāmasundara: So these governments, meaning American government or Chinese government, they live on slogans, on ideas, mental concoctions.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Mental concoction. They are not perfect. Perfection is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If they are intelligent, they should consider this movement very seriously and apply it for practical life all over the world. That will make people happy.

Śyāmasundara: So that's all.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Devotee: Is it not a fallacy to think that by adding sense gratification we will decrease the demands, desires for more?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Adding sense gratification means adding ghee, pouring ghee on the fire.

Devotee: Yes. But some has to be there as the senses, which they're denying. The basis of their ideology is that conflict brings about growth or progress. If they want a peaceful society, they're still trying to get rid of their conflicts.

Prabhupāda: That we have discussed in the beginning. Conflict must be decided by higher intelligence. Just like I have given yesterday, there is conflict between two litigants and the high-court judge decides. So conflict there must be, but it must be decided by higher authorities. That's all. Otherwise it will go on. If you don't go to the higher authorities, then it will go on. It will never end, conflict.

Revatīnandana: It also follows from his philosophy that if somebody defeats him and throws him out, that other person was right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: He was wrong.

Prabhupāda: That is right.

Revatīnandana: So his philosophy is very conditional.

Devotee: The antithesis is there in his teaching. He defeated his own instruction in his preface. That's what I was trying to… One thing about Mao's Communism in Russia in its relation to the Soviet Communism is that Soviet Russians are finding that the (indistinct) in a commune is going down because the family life is broken up. The children are taken away from the parents. The parents live separately and see one another occasionally. Similarly, it's dropping still more sharply in Red China, Mao's state. So Mao, in an effort to curb back and to reduce things to their natural order, wants to still further dissolve the struc…

Prabhupāda: But we don't accept either Mao or Marx. We don't accept anyone.

Devotee: Why are you discussing them?

Prabhupāda: Discussing to defeat their philosophy. Because their philosophy is accepted in the world, so we are giving the weak points of that philosophy.

Devotee: When I (indistinct) they simply say I'm dogmatic, but when I defeat them in terms of their own premises, that they have to admit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are doing. We are defeating on their own principles. On principles. Just like we are speaking that Mao thinks that he is not controlled. He should be controller. But he is controlled by heart attack. Then how he can be controller? The same example. If you are blind, how you can lead other blind men? First of all, he has to know that "I am so powerful, why I am being controlled by heart attack?" Let them philosophize on this point. You must admit that "I am controlled." So if I am controller, then how I can be supreme controller?

Revatīnandana: Or if I am perfect, then why do I have to submit to imperfection?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That means actually I am not perfect. Therefore what qualification have I got to give truth?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot give. You are cheating only. Because you are imperfect, but you are giving ideas to people. What right you have that you are teaching?

Revatīnandana: Suppose he says, "Yes, it's true, I will die. We all will die. I am just giving a formula for now until I die. Until we die, then we will do like this."

Prabhupāda: Then all will die. Those who will follow, he will also die, they will also die. So first of all, stop yourself from death.

Revatīnandana: They will say "That cannot be done."

Prabhupāda: Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?

Pañcadraviḍa: Also his (indistinct) that "If we are imperfect, how can we govern?" Their whole slogan, Communist slogan is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." How can you get from a person according to his ability and how can you give according to his needs? If all the time there are the four errors of cheating propensity and so many other factors of imperfection are there, how can you possibly take a person and treat him as an individual and expect to have any kind of a reasonable conception of what he is capable of doing? (end)

EVOLUTIONISTS.SYA

The Evolutionists:

Thomas Huxley, Henri Bergson, and Samuel Alexander

Śyāmasundara: He wants to search out what is the pattern of evolution, how it will go in the future, and he says that because man has progressed from the instinctive stage to the intelligent stage, and then to the intuitive stage, that he will obtain eventually the immortal stage, that he will become…

Prabhupāda: That is nice. That immortal stage is described in the Bhāgavatam, or the Bhagavad-gītā. Yad gatvā na nivartante [Bg. 15.6]. Progress means you go, go. Gamati iti gatiḥ, or progress. You go, go, go. So when you come to this śloka… (?) Therefore in the Vedas it is said, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Sūrayaḥ, means those who are learned, those who are advanced in knowledge. They are called sūrayaḥ. So they are always looking forward to the lotus feet of Viṣṇu. Just like modern scientists are going, trying to go to the moon planet, so when they start, they are looking forward (to) the moon planet. Similarly, those who are learned, they are simply looking forward to the lotus feet of Viṣṇu: "When I shall reach there?" That goal is there. They are not missing the goal. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. This is the Ṛg Veda mantra. They know their goal. But they have to reach still, yet to go there. Just like our Kṛṣṇa conscious people, they know what is the goal, Kṛṣṇa, Goloka Vṛndāvana. So this is the attempt, how to reach there, how to reach there. That's all. We are not blind, but these people are blind. They do not know what is the goal. By philosophizing, they simply mislead. That is explained in the Bhāgavata: andhā, a blind man is trying to lead other blind men. If you do not know, why you are philosophizing? Unless you have got the ideal goal for evolutionary progress, why you talk of these things? What do you think? Huh? So that is explained in the Bhāgavata. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. Andhā. One blind man is trying to lead another blind man. So what is the use of such leading? You must have eyes; then you can ask other hundreds of blind men, "Please come behind me. I shall get you across." But if you have no eyes, then why you are asking others? Philosophizing.

Śyāmasundara: It seems like these two philosophers have two different viewpoints. The first one, Huxley, said man can take nature into his own hand and mold his own evolution.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Whereas this philosopher thinks that we should just…, that the vital force is guiding everyone and creating its own evolution, that we should just drift in the course of things and the vital force will determine history or will determine our future.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital force will determine. That is somewhat…

Śyāmasundara: Without our doing, without anything of our doing.

Prabhupāda: No. Vital force must know how to make progress how to do it. Then he'll be… If he does not know how to do it, how it will be possible? Can you do anything? Suppose you are learning some mechanical business, can you do it without direction? You have to learn. You must get a teacher. So without teacher, that is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: Just like the seasons. If we just place ourselves in the seasons, they take us toward something, towards springtime.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot compare. The analogy is mistaken. The season is matter, material changes. But the evolution is not matter. There is spirit soul. He is making his evolution. So he has got independence. He can reject and accept. Just like yesterday we were talking… (plane overhead) …Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up everything, just surrender unto Me," but because you are living entity, you can reject this proposal or accept this proposal. Not that blindly you have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. No. That is not possible. The proposal is there, but it is up to you to surrender or not to surrender. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says that "You do it." If it is automatically, then there was no need of Kṛṣṇa's saying, "Do it." It would have come automatically to the surrendering point. Not like that. They are mistaken in that. The living entity has got the right to accept or reject. So if he takes, he makes his progress, accepting the right path, then he comes to the goal. But if he rejects, he'll not reach the goal (?). That depends on him.

Śyāmasundara: So this philosopher Bergson, he sees two types of morality. The "closed morality," which is the compulsive forms of behavior, which conform to prevailing convention or social pressure or tradition; static morality, one simply follows the tradition blindly.

Prabhupāda: That can be changed according to the… Just like in some scriptures it is said that "Thou shall not kill." So the killing is ordinary thing there. But in some society killing is already prohibited by so much culture that they do not want to kill even an ant. So that depends on education of the particular society. It is not static, that "This will be like this." No. Not like that. "One man's food another man's poison." What is morality in one society, it may be immorality in another society.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So the other type of morality he calls "open morality." This is determined by individuals in a dynamic way, blazing new trails, guided by…

Prabhupāda: As soon as it is invented by individual men or society, this is all rascaldom. It has no value.

Śyāmasundara: He calls it "the higher morality." Just like St. Paul or some great saint receives inspiration from God and he blazes a new trail to morality in a society.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. Because he is God conscious, he can dictate what is real morality.

Śyāmasundara: He's speaking of the case of St. Paul.

Prabhupāda: So St. Paul, he's a sādhu. So our process is that: sādhu-guru-śāstra. We have to accept everything through saintly person, confirmed by the scripture, and described or explained by guru. Then it is perfect. The scriptures are already there, and we have to see how the scriptures are being followed by saintly persons. And if there is any difficulty, they should be explained by the spiritual master. Then it is perfect. Sādhu-guru-śāstra-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya. Scriptures you cannot understand directly. Then you have to see how the scriptural injunctions are being followed by saintly persons. Even if you cannot understand, then the spiritual master will explain to you.

Śyāmasundara: And he sees also in the same way two types of religion. He sees the static religion and he calls this static religion "myth devised by human intelligence as a means of defense against the depressing experiences of life. Being fearful of the future, man attempts to combat his fate by constructing religious myths."

Prabhupāda: Just that… Anything created by human being, that is not acceptable. We do not follow that principle. Because a human being is always imperfect. So we cannot take anything manufactured, myth, by any human being. We take directly from God. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. The religious principles, they are given directly by God. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "This is religion: surrender unto Me." This is religion. It is not man-manufactured. Man is manufacturing, "Oh, this is my type of religion. It is Muhammadanism." "This is Hinduism." "This is Christianism." All these isms, they are imperfect, man-made. But this is perfect. This is perfect because it is given by God Himself. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat… [SB 6.3.19]. Very simple thing. "You surrender unto Me." That's all. So any religious system which leads the follower to this point, surrendering to God, that is religion. Otherwise bogus. Real religion is this, surrender to God. So any system of religion, it doesn't matter whether Hinduism, Christianism, Muhammadanism, if it teaches ultimately surrender to God, then that is perfect religion. Otherwise it is not religion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the opposite of static religion is dynamic religion. He says that this type of religion…

Prabhupāda: Dynamic because he has no idea of God and God consciousness. He thinks it is dea…, static. But they can see practically. We are Kṛṣṇa conscious, how much activities we have got. Deny it. So he does not know what is God, what is religion, and he is philosopher. You see?

Śyāmasundara: He says that… He would probably call our type of religion dynamic religion.

Prabhupāda: Dynamic, yes.

Śyāmasundara: But there is also a type that is static religion.

Prabhupāda: Static religion… Religion is not static because religion (?) (ritual?) is on the spiritual platform. The spiritual platform is not static because the spirit is the dynamic force in this body. So when it is uncontaminated by this material body, then how it can be static? Because the spirit soul is there within the body, therefore my body is moving.

Śyāmasundara: But, for instance, in ancient Greece, they fabricated so many myths, mythology…

Prabhupāda: Well, that I have already answered. Anything manufactured by man, that is not religion. That is not religion. That I have already explained. Religion is not manufactured, but it is given by God. That is our point. God is giving religion, "Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." So any religious system may be different in method, but ultimately, if it comes to this point, surrendering to God, then it is religion. Otherwise, it is not religion. Reject it.

Śyāmasundara: He says that prompted by this vital impulse, the human will identifies with the divine will in a mystical union…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …and that this is real religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching people that you agree with the divine will. The divine will is that you surrender. So you agree. You surrender. That we are teaching. That is real religion.

Śyāmasundara: He says that real religion is a mystic oneness with God.

Prabhupāda: That is… Yes. Oneness means I agree with God. God says your surrender. I say, "Yes. I surrender." God says Arjuna "You fight," he fights. That is oneness, that we have no disagreement in any point with God. That is oneness. Just like in this institution, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as soon as I say anything, there is no disagreement of any other disciple. If there is disagreement, then it is ended. Disobedient immediately. As it is going, it is being done, taking God's representative, Kṛṣṇa's representative, so similarly with God also. And what, what I am doing? I am simply taking the order from God and I am disseminating the same knowledge. I have accepted that surrender to Kṛṣṇa is my life. I am teaching others, "You also surrender." This is called disciplic succession. There is no disagreement with God. It is not that I am posing myself, "I am God."

Śyāmasundara: What does it mean, "mystic oneness with God"? What does mystic mean?

Prabhupāda: Mystic means spiritual. What is the mystic? What is the meaning of?

Śyāmasundara: "Mystic means known only to those of special comprehension or especially initiated." Known only to those with special comprehension.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So Bergson believed that this mystic who had contacted God, that he can lead others and he can teach others how to become godly.

Prabhupāda: That's it. God's representative. That we are. That is disciplic succession. Yes. That is spiritual… He is accepting spiritual master. He is accepting spiritual master. And that is the definition in the śāstra.

tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta

jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam

śābde pare ca niśṇātaṁ

brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam

[SB 11.3.21]

One who has realized God, you go to such spiritual master to understand the spiritual science. The Bhagavad-gītā also… That is our word, that you should approach… What does he say? That word?

Śyāmasundara: The mystic teaches us how to become godly.

Prabhupāda: How to become godly. That's right.

Śyāmasundara: He says how to become God.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Śyāmasundara: This man. In the sense of godly, how to become God.

Prabhupāda: All right. That can be accepted. But a better word is how to become godly or God conscious. That is the exact word. Śyāmasundara: This definition in the dictionary for mystic is "known only to those of special comprehension or especially initiated."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That means one who is God conscious. He is mystic.

Śyāmasundara: But the modern interpretation of the word mystic is something different. People take "mystic" to mean someone who is very mysterious and magic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has come to that. God consciousness… Just like at the present moment, if a guru can show some miracles, just like that Sai Baba, (laughter) so they accept that he's mystic. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's the modern meaning of mystic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Although it may be rascaldom, false, still, he's received like that. Miracles. That means less intelligent class of men, they want to see some miracles. That is mysticism.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that God means love and the creative… Through creative love the world came into being, and the world is a manifestation of God's love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God loves. Because unless He loves, why does He come personally? Why He gives instruction through scriptures? [break]

Śyāmasundara: So today we are discussing a philosopher named Samuel Alexander. He is the philosopher of emergent evolution. The last of the evolutionists we'll be discussing. His philosophy begins with the idea that objects, external objects, have an independent existence. They do not depend on consciousness for their existence. This is the opposite of many philosophers we have discussed who have said that nothing exists unless it is perceived. But this philosopher says something may exist even though it is not perceived. Even though there is no conscious life to observe, it still exists. Objects exist independently of perception.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like God exists, either you perceive or not perceive. Is that all right? God, creator. Just like everyone has got father, so all living entities coming originally from a father. So you perceive or not perceive, it doesn't matter. But a father was there or is there. Is that all right?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Suppose if nobody perceives an object. Say, like…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even nobody perceives, the fact is fact. Nobody has seen my father, but everyone knows that I had a father. It is not necessary that who accepts that I had a father, or I have a father, it is not necessary that he has to see my father by direct perception. But because I exist, therefore my father is essential. That is understood by everyone. Just like somebody asks, some friend asks some friend, "What is your father's name?" That means he assumes that he has got a father. Otherwise how does he say, ask, "What is your father's name?" First of all, you should have asked, "Have you got a father?" Then ask his name. But without asking this inquiry, whether he has got a father or not, he simply asks, "What is the name of your father?" Then it is assumed that he has a father. So he does not see his father, but immediately perceives that he has a father.

Śyāmasundara: He uses the example of a house, that if I become conscious of a house, the house itself is a real entity, unaffected by my consciousness of it. It exists, objectively, real, whether I see it or not. He says that the…

Prabhupāda: But in that proposition… And if we accept that we are eternal, so it is very natural to assume that we have got eternal home. That is back to Godhead, back to home. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: If we were born someplace, that is our home, normally…

Prabhupāda: No. The thing is… Just like I have come to this house. This is not my own house, but everyone knows that I have got a house. It may be where it is. Therefore sometimes they ask, "Where, what is your residence?"

Śyāmasundara: Yes. "Where is your home?" That usually refers to where you were born.

Prabhupāda: Or where I live. That's all. Not necessarily. "What is your address?" That present address may not be my birthplace, but I live somewhere. That's a fact. Nobody is interested to know where I live, but everyone knows that I have got a living place.

Śyāmasundara: Many people ask, "Where do you come from?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "Where is your origin?"

Prabhupāda: "What is your birthplace?"

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So this Samuel Alexander says that our consciousness of an object is a mere perspective on something, but it's a real portion of that object and not just a mental image. In other words, if I see a table, I am actually reacting with that table. It is a real perspective. It's not just a mental image, but I'm actually reacting to that table. My senses are reacting with the table. It's an objective reality.

Prabhupāda: Where is the table?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Some philosophers think that if I see the table, it's merely a mental idea in my mind, that table. He says that no, there is a real objective relationship between my senses and the table, reality of the table. Is that…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is right.

Śyāmasundara: That's right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: It's not just a mental image.

Prabhupāda: No, not mental. If the table is thrown upon me, I will fall. Then we cannot say that it is mental image. And it hurts me and blood oozes out; then it is not mental.

Śyāmasundara: He says that even illusions are genuinely real objects which are uncreated by the human mind. In other words, if I think I see a snake and it is actually a piece of rope, but if I think it is a snake, then it really is a snake.

Prabhupāda: That is reality of a snake; otherwise how this imagination comes to me? I have got an idea of snake. Now, in darkness there is a rope. So I may falsely take it as snake. That's doesn't matter. But snake is there. That is our argument.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind never creates anything new. It simply rearranges things. Everything already exists…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …but the mind, and the mind merely arranges it. It doesn't create anything new.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the economic law says that you cannot create anything. You simply transform. Just like this table is nothing but wood. So wood is not my creation. Wood is there, but I have transformed the wood into a state which is called a table.

Śyāmasundara: So that newness or novelty is merely rearranging. Something new, they say, "Oh, he has created something new." But it is merely a rearrangement of previously existing things.

Prabhupāda: That is that English proverb, "Necessity is the cause of invention." I require something to sit down, leaning back side, so I create a chair which is called armchair. So I sense first of all a necessity that "I must sit down very comfortably leaning towards the back." So under such spirit I make this chair, and this is called armchair. So necessity is the mother of invention.

Śyāmasundara: So all new things are created out of necessity?

Prabhupāda: New things means I create a necessity, and then, according to the plan of the necessity, the thing is there. Just like dictaphone. I feel inconvenience to dictate or the secretary has no time to take my dictation. So I may feel that "If I keep record of my dictation, the secretary will take it later on according to his convenience." So therefore the invention of a dictaphone.

Śyāmasundara: Yet many philosophers would say that this is the reason that religion has come about, that man feels a necessity for God, so he invents God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not invents. He knows God. This is natural. Just like if a sane man is there, so who is the original father? Huh? Just like I have got a father. Everyone knows. My father has a father. His father's father's father… Then who is the original father?

Śyāmasundara: So he can invent his original father.

Prabhupāda: No. He can simply know by this philosophical research who is the original father. And the Vedānta-sūtra also says, "God is He who is the original father of everything." Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1].

Śyāmasundara: In a sense, the man is not really inventing a chair either. There is already an idea of chair previously existing. He's just discovering it, something which already exists. Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in that sense, that I am feeling the necessity of armchair. My predecessors, they might have felt that chair, they invented. But at the present moment, my predecessor is also gone, the chair is also gone. So invention means the things which I create that was not in existence. That is called invention?

Śyāmasundara: Hm.

Prabhupāda: And discovery: The thing is already there; I simply find it out. So invention and discovery practically convey the same idea.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Because actually nothing is new. If I…

Prabhupāda: That is discovery.

Śyāmasundara: If I invent something…

Prabhupāda: Similarly, in case of God, it is discovery. It is not invention. It is discovery.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Just like the idea of a chair is already there in nature. Nature provides a chair.

Prabhupāda: Nature provides a sitting place. Just like when there is a slab of stone anywhere, I wish to sit down on it. Psychology. Then the next proposal is, "Why not invent something at my home? It is here in a… I cannot take it." You can say the idea was there already, to sit down on a high place comfortably. So I come home and make a chair according to that idea.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind is an emergent, that is, it creates a new organization out of existing things. It emerges new things out of old things. This comes from the idea of evolution.

Prabhupāda: Just like there is gold and there is mountain. So I make a golden mountain. Gold is there, mountain is there. I combine together and make an imagination, golden mountain. Is that like that?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Similar to that.

Prabhupāda: The things are there. We mix up. So many things. The things are there and I mix up with something else and it can be called an invention.

Śyāmasundara: So then he tries to describe what is this mind. The mind is emergent. It can rearrange things and create new things, arrange new things.

Prabhupāda: Mind creates some idea and again rejects it. It creates another idea. That is mind's business. He is not satisfied by creating something as final. Mind is creative. He creates something and he thinks, "Oh, this is not…" Just like you were making some doll (door?). You don't like it. Again you break it. Then again do it nicely, "Oh, it is not right." Then again break it. That is mind's business.

Śyāmasundara: Accepts and rejects.

Prabhupāda: Reject.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the mind has two functions also, but he describes them slightly different. He says that first one is contemplation, that is perceiving the qualities of an object. And this is a, it's called a neurological activity. In other words, when the nerve endings in the body react with the qualities of an object. If an object is red, my nerve ending perceives that it is red. This is the object.

Prabhupāda: Just like if there is a tamarind, immediately there is saliva in my tongue.

Śyāmasundara: (laughs) This is what he calls contemplation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And then the second function of the mind is enjoyment, where there is a mental awareness of an inner, physiological activity as a result of the contemplation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many examples. Just like one man dreams some woman and there is nocturnal discharges. Mind creates like that and there is physical action actually. Mind creates a dream, a tiger, and there is physical action. He is crying loudly, "Here is a tiger. Here is a tiger." Actually, there is no tiger.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that even these mental images in dreams are real, that they have an objective reality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Objective reality. When I dream of a woman or a tiger, there is objective reality. In dream it may be. There may be no existence of woman or tiger, but there is real existence of tiger, my dreaming. The impression of a tiger in my mind, the impression of a woman in my mind is created as hallucination, and that reacts on my physical life.

Śyāmasundara: He says that even these mental objects have a real existence in my consciousness. As long as I'm thinking there's a tiger about to pounce on me…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …there is a tiger. There is a real object in my consciousness.

Prabhupāda: And because it is real object, it is reacting on my physical life.

Śyāmasundara: He describes ultimate reality as space-time. Space and time. He says that time is an infinity of instants, single instants, and that the basis of infinity is a point, and that these two are combined and this is called reality.

Prabhupāda: Infinity of?

Śyāmasundara: Point.

Prabhupāda: Points and?

Śyāmasundara: Infinity of instants.

Prabhupāda: Instinct.

Śyāmasundara: Instant. Like a moment is an instant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm.

Śyāmasundara: So he calls this ultimate reality. Time and space.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Time is… We take it reality, time. That we accept also. Time is eternal. Reality. And therefore we take time as another feature of God.

Śyāmasundara: And space?

Prabhupāda: Space is later created.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, after time. Oh. And it creates the ultimate reality?

Prabhupāda: No. No. Space is also reality. Space is prakṛti. Prakṛti, kāla, jīva, and Bhagavān. They are all reality.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. Those four things.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. He leaves out entity and Bhagavān. He only has time and space in the ultimate reality.

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy… We see that one ultimate creator, Bhagavān. And jīvātmā, subsequent creator. God has created wood; I create a table and chair. I am subsequent. I am not ultimate creator. So jīvātmā is subsequent creator. Both the creators are eternal. And because the creation has got time connection, past, present, and future, so time is eternal. Time is eternal and jīva is eternal and prakṛti.

Śyāmasundara: Prakṛti means space?

Prabhupāda: Prakṛti means elements. Space is sky. Space is sky. So sky is one of the fundamental factors of prakṛti, space.

Śyāmasundara: Anything which occupies space.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So there is even spiritual space?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Otherwise, how there is spiritual world? The ingredient is different. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. Just like you create plastic tree like this. The plastic tree and this tree, ingredients are the same. The same, that earth, water, air. What is this plastic? It is also a kind of earth. Is it not? You mix with water and put a shape and heat it, it becomes glass and this and that, so many things. Similarly, the whole material creation is also combination and permutation… What is called?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Of these five elements. Especially earth, water and fire. Just like this brick What is this brick? Earth, water, mix and put it into fire. It is brick.

Śyāmasundara: (aside:) Should I turn it off? (?)

Prabhupāda: And you crush this brick, it becomes mortar. And mix with lime and water. Then it becomes cementing plaster, and put the bricks after bricks with that cement and it becomes house. So ultimately earth, water, and fire. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayam, exchange of earth, water, and fire.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that nothing remains at rest, that everything is in perpetual transition.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is accepted. That is called jagat. Gacchati. Everything is going on, forward. That is called jagat.

Śyāmasundara: Even the activities of the spiritual world are like that?

Prabhupāda: No. Spiritual world is different. We are speaking of material world. In spiritual world the activity is eternal. In material world activity is not eternal.

Śyāmasundara: But motion, the motion is eternal because everything is moving.

Prabhupāda: Motion is interaction of the three qualities. Just like you put soda and alkali, alkali and acid together, there is a reaction, effervescence. So both of them are material, but in due course of time it reacts, and then creation takes place.

Śyāmasundara: What about activities in the spiritual sky, beyond…?

Prabhupāda: Activities of the spiritual sky, that is eternal. Everything is eternal there.

Śyāmasundara: But… Isn't there motion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not motion? Because there is living entities. Living entities means life force. There must be motion.

Śyāmasundara: This is his idea: all of creation means motion. There is motion everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without motion, how there can be creation? This is called kṣobha. Nothing is created without motion.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that he wants to find some categories which define the characteristics of everything, that everything possesses these things in common.

Prabhupāda: That five elements: earth, water, fire, air… Anything you take, these things are there. And subtler things: mind, intelligence, and ego. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that these eight kinds of material elements are differentiated energy of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: His categories are a little more abstract. He says that the primary category is motion.

Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the motion comes? That is insufficient knowledge. When you… Motion means somebody must move, push on. That is accepted by Professor Einstein. If somebody has pushed, the motion has begun. Now it is going on. Just like in the billiard table, push one ball, "Hut!" And it goes.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he says that there are four major categories besides the primary category of motion and they are 1) identity or diversity. Each thing has a personal identity, an individuality, and each thing is different from every other thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called sajātīya-vijātīya bheda in Sanskrit. Different… Sajātīya. Just like two trees, two mango trees, but still there is difference. They are one as mango tree, but this tree is different from that tree. Similarly, the fingers. As finger they are one, but this finger is different from this finger. Although sajātī. Sajātī means of the same category, but there is difference. Although the same category, finger, but this finger is bigger than this finger. The whole body. It's a part of the body. Hand is different from leg. Leg is different from his head. Head is different from palm. Palm is different from sole. There are so many differences. They are called sajātī vijātī.

Śyāmasundara: So the one characteristic that they all have is that they are individuals, that they are individual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One characteris… One is substance, another is character, character.

Śyāmasundara: Category.

Prabhupāda: Category, yes.

Śyāmasundara: So the second thing that he sees that characterizes everything, that all things possess in common, is existence, or being.

Prabhupāda: That is five elements. Just like there are differences between tree and your body, my body, but this body is made of the five elements: earth, water, air, fire. The tree is also made of the same elements, earth, water, air, fire… The aquatic body, fish's body, is also made of the same ingredients. Only difference is that one ingredient is prominent, other ingredients… Therefore you can take up this fact that there are living entities in the sun. The sun, because it appears fiery, you cannot exist. Your body cannot exist in the fire. But it does not mean there cannot be somebody whose body itself is fire. How can you deny it? And body being fiery, he can stay in the fiery planet of the same temperature.

Śyāmasundara: So the third and fourth categories he sees that relates to everything are relations and order. Everything relates to everything else and there is an order in everything. Everything is part of an order, a grand order.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Prakṛti, there is order. Just like the sun is rising exactly in time. It is setting exactly in time. The sea waves, they are forbidden, "Not to come beyond this limit." Big, big waves are always coming, "Ohn, ohn!" but not beyond this beach (reach?). So there is order. Everything there is order.

Śyāmasundara: Even the mind occupies space and transpires in time. Mind occupies space and works in time. Is that also a fact?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are occupying space. That's a fact.

Śyāmasundara: The mind also occupies space?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am occupying space, mind is within me. Why not? Mind occupying space, it can be practically experienced. The mind runs immediately, thousand miles away.

Śyāmasundara: But is that thousand miles away in me or does my mind actually travel there.

Prabhupāda: Travels.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So it occupies space.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless… Suppose… You don't exactly remember now. The mind is going. As soon as reaches, then you can remember. It takes a second, but still, it occupies…

Śyāmasundara: So the mind leaves this body and goes somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Not leave. It is just like a suit (shoot?).

Śyāmasundara: Oh, it extends.

Prabhupāda: Extends.

Śyāmasundara: He says that whatever exists is subject to…

Prabhupāda: At night also, the body also extends and again comes… You forget this body; you are dreaming some body, some other feature of the body. So sometimes you take that body very important.

Śyāmasundara: He says that whatever exists is subject to space and time and to these categories. However, evolution is progressing and new emergents appear in all the qualities which are envisioned to the mystic qualities. That the living entity, or life, he says that it could evolve into new things, other things, other than what we know about because it is continually emerging, evolution is continually emerging to something new.

Prabhupāda: So?

Śyāmasundara: Does this follow with…

Prabhupāda: What is the conclusion?

Śyāmasundara: The conclusion is that everything is evolving into ever newer and newer forms, and in the future that…

Prabhupāda: Old order changes, yielding place to new. This law?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But this new form which may appear in the future, we may have no idea about it now. We may not be able to say what it is, what it will be like.

Prabhupāda: No. We don't think like that. We know that the days are going on. As we have experienced past, summer season and winter season, then forward also, we can say in such and such month there will be summer season. In such and such month there will be winter season. Either you take it from book or take it from our past experience, the things are there.

Śyāmasundara: So in the future there may be nothing unpredictable appearing, such as an entire new form of existence or something like this.

Prabhupāda: No. Why? In future… Just like seasonal changes. There will be winter season. So what is the wonder there? I have got past experience of winter, so I am saying that "In such and such month there will be winter."

Bhavānanda: Of course, it could come about that there was no winter. A point could be reached, he's saying, that where there would be no winter.

Śyāmasundara: Where winter may disappear.

Bhavānanda: Disappear or, they say the experience on this planet is that one time summer stopped and that everything became covered with ice. I have no experience with that.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Just like in the past they say there was an ice age when there was no summer, no heat, and everything became ice, so in the future…, I cannot predict… Evolution may carry the events into some entirely strange new way, novel combination. Like winter may disappear or summer may disappear or…

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhavānanda: Or a new species may come out.

Śyāmasundara: A new type of man.

Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not possible. Everything is there. That is the Vedic version. They say that so many species in the water, so many species on land, so many moving… It is all fixed up. There is no question of increasing or decreasing.

Bhavānanda: But they have predicted a species of man, a type of man in the future who would have no hair on his body and whose head would be very, very big because of an increased brain capacity, but whose body would be atrophied. The arms and legs of the man they predict in the future is going to become more and more secondary.

Prabhupāda: Who predicted? Who is that fool? (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: They say that man will lose some of his toes because he will cease activities, his activity will become…

Prabhupāda: This is another foolishness. It has never become, neither it will be.

Bhavānanda: Man has always had five toes.

Prabhupāda: That's right.

Bhavānanda: And he always will. However, is there, if there is a species of a type of men that have eight toes on each foot, he's always had eight toes on each foot. He might not be on this planet.

Prabhupāda: We don't care any such things.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that man may evolve to a demigod platform in the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That he will have super consciousness, this and that.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devaṇ [Bg. 9.25]. If you become fond of the demigods, you go to the demigods. Pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Or bhūtejyā, you can remain in this material world.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that evolution is passed through five stages. In the beginning there was merely space and time and the categories, this object. Then there was a development of primary qualities through multiple sense perception. In other words, living entities began to perceive objects through different sense perceptions. Then there was the secondary qualities were developed through perception by one organ. In other words, out of a multiple sense quality, an eye developed, a nose developed, a mouth developed.

Prabhupāda: That is the process of body. I have explained several times that after the secretion of the male and the female, they together emulsify and forms a pealike body. And that develops into this body. Gradually, there are holes. The holes become eyes, ears, nose, rectum, like that. So when the body, creation of body is complete, then the child comes out.

Śyāmasundara: He says that after the secondary sense perceptions are developed, then life develops and then mind develops.

Prabhupāda: Mind is also created. That we admit.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that in this way there are…

Prabhupāda: Mind, ego, intelligence, everything is created of elements.

Śyāmasundara: This, parallel to this is the idea is first there were the ingredients of nature, then there was very simple forms of life, then more developed forms of life, then human life. And he says in the next stage will be deity life or demigod life. And in this sixth level of life, he says that men will be able to more than just enjoy the qualities of mental experience, that they will be able to contemplate things as they are. They will be able to contemplate rather than just enjoy. They will be able to contemplate.

Prabhupāda: Now let us stop. We shall discuss tomorrow. [break]

Śyāmasundara: Yesterday we were discussing this philosophy of emergent evolution. The theory behind it is in the beginning there was merely space and time and categories and then this developed to a level of primary sense perception, then to a level of secondary sense perception, then to a level of organic life, and then to a level of mind, mental life. And now, his theory is that the next level will be called deity, or a sort of demigod level of consciousness, in which men will be able to not only enjoy the objects of contemplation but be able to contemplate them, really, (?) in reality.

Prabhupāda: So that is Vedic process.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that all of evolution is going that way, nature is tending that way. And nature has progressed in different steps from inorganic life to organic life, to mental life, and now to demigod life.

Prabhupāda: From organic… Inorganic life? What is that inorganic life?

Śyāmasundara: Space and time and the categories of…

Prabhupāda: Where is the life there?

Śyāmasundara: Life develops from inorganic matter is his theory. It is merely a higher level of organization, inorganic life.

Prabhupāda: That means life developed from matter?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. How life develops from matter? Where is the, evidence? Why do they not manufacture life from matter in the laboratory? It is simply a statement. It has no value. Because you cannot produce living force from matter. Matter is different and living force, soul, is different. (In) one sense, of course, they are the energy of God, but still, categorically, they are different. So far these materialists are concerned, where is the proof that from matter, life has developed? So why they do not manufacture life in the laboratory? Even an ant you cannot manufacture. You have got all the chemicals. Why don't you manufacture life? So this theory cannot be accepted.

Śyāmasundara: They trace back… Their so-called evidence is just mostly see that geological calculations. They see that at a certain period… They go further down into the earth's surface.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Śyāmasundara: All kinds of life disappear and there is simply rock. And they say the beginning was merely rock and water; then organic life came out.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not organic life. The soul appears in different ways. One of the ways is by fermentation, perspiration. So rock and water, when it is decomposed there is fermentation and there is possibility of soul taking advantage and come out with a body. In any case, from matter life never comes. It is compared with… Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. A vṛścika, a scorpion, is coming out from rice. Actually, a scorpion down lays eggs within the heaps of rice, and by fermentation of the rice, heating, the egg, I mean to say, produces a small scorpion, and it comes out from the rice. So foolish people, they think that the heaps of rice is the cause of producing a scorpion. So many things come like that, but that does not mean the matter is producing life. If matter is producing life, the modern science, so much advanced, so let them prove in the laboratory, mixing some matter, life is coming. That fermentation, that is accepted in the Vedic language. By fermentation living creatures come out.

Śyāmasundara: So it is only because the soul finds refuge there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: What about this idea that nature…

Prabhupāda: Mister (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Give him one āsana.

Śyāmasundara: That nature is progressing. What about this idea that nature, or evolution, is progressing?

Prabhupāda: The same nonsense idea. Evolution is not progressing. Everything is there, but it is being manifested when the living soul takes shelter.

Śyāmasundara: But do you think that there will become a level of demigods, a race of demigods?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods, according to Vedic system, demigods… (Hindi:) Aiye. Demigods were created before man was created. (Hindi:) Aiye. Jaya. Demigods, just like demigod, Lord Brahmā, he was first created. From Brahmā, Lord Śiva was created. Then… Created means born, not created. So similarly, from Brahmā, other, Dakṣa, he was created, so many, one after…, Prajāpatis, then Manus.

Śyāmasundara: So even before inorganic life there was…

Prabhupāda: There is no such thing, from inorganic life. Inorganic life… Suppose just like Brahmā is coming from the navel of Viṣṇu. So where is the… We don't get any information. Viṣṇu is origin, and from Viṣṇu, Brahmā came. From Brahmā, other demigods came, other animals came. They create animals and others. The first created being is Brahmā, the most intelligent. He's not animal. Their proposal is from lower to the higher, but our theory is from the higher, from Viṣṇu. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. "I am the origin of everything." Now, how you can say there is development from the lower creatures? He is the origin. And Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The origin, Absolute Truth, is that from whom everything is generating. So Absolute Truth means He is the supreme life. From life, life is coming. Where is the evidence that dead stone giving birth to a man or animal? Where is the evidence?

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that in future everyone will be a demigod, that the race of man, because of mental life, will be replaced by a race of superconscious beings.

Prabhupāda: Superconscious beings, there are already existing, just like in Siddhaloka and Gandharvaloka. There are many planets.

Śyāmasundara: This earth planet will become like that.

Prabhupāda: No. We don't get such information. Why they are so much anxious about the earth planet? There are many millions of planets. So super human being there… Just like we learn from the śāstras, in the Siddhaloka they can fly from one planet to another. Not only that, all the yogic siddhis, they are, naturally they have got. Just like we are trying to fly in the sky, that is not natural, but a small bird, he can fly. It is God's creation. So similarly, there are many human beings in the Siddhaloka. They, without any airplane, without any…, they can fly. They go from one planet to another. Not that this, from this planet they have developed. They are already existing.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that nature develops towards that point. The body develops better and better to that point.

Prabhupāda: That is another…, the same rascal proposal. Body never develops. There are different types of body and the soul take shelter of one particular body. The same example, that in the tailor shop there are many shirts and coats. It is not that a shirt is developing into coat, neither the coat is developed into shirt. But there are many varieties of shirts and coat. If you go, you put on, and when the shirt or coat moves, the rascal thinks that it is the shirt and coat is moving. Shirt and coat never moves. The man, or the living entity, within the shirt and coat, he is moving. And therefore as soon as he is out, the shirt and coat, this body, is dead. It has no value.

Śyāmasundara: So according to the desire of the soul, he…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement in the Bhāgavata. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Karmaṇā. Just like you get a shirt and coat according to the price you pay, similarly, by your karma, you get a particular type of body.

Śyāmasundara: So if one was prepared to pay for such demigod existence, he could have it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigod… That is called puṇya-karma. Just like they are going to Candraloka. According to Vedic scripture, yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If you worship the particular demigods, then you are promoted in that loka.

Śyāmasundara: It's not that accidentally nature will evolve a race of demigods on this planet.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is nothing accidental. It is not that accidental, one becomes high-court judge. (laughter) This is nonsense. Accidental(ly) one becomes a very high grade medical man. This is all childish proposal. They have no sense even. It is all childish. Where is the, in our practical life, where is the evidence that accidentally one has become like this? Is there any evidence of how they propose these childish things? I do not know. And they are passing as philosophers.

Śyāmasundara: Occasionally, for instance, there will be some great genius born in a family, and they will say that somehow or other, nature has produced this genius. The parents are not so intelligent.

Prabhupāda: No. Genius means he, in his previous life, he cultured, and next life is being manifested. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. So yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ, one who could not finish his yogic activities perfectly, he is given chance. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe. Not that accidental.

Śyāmasundara: So through the practice of some kind of yoga system, men develop higher consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also, we are practicing, bhakti-yoga.

Śyāmasundara: Otherwise…

Prabhupāda: No. Without your… This is the thing, you have to gain by your own endeavor. Other things naturally come in. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Therefore śāstra says, "For that perfection, one should devote his life." Here people are taught to struggle how to get material comforts, but according to Vedic system, material comforts you will have whatever is destined to you. But so far your spiritual development is concerned, you have to understand that you are spirit soul and you can develop yourself to go back to the spiritual world, you can be associated with the Lord. So many things, spiritual activities. So the śāstra says that one should try to achieve spiritual perfection, and for that he should endeavor. Not for material comforts. Material comforts will come to you as material distress come upon you. You don't ask for material distress, but it comes. Similarly, material comforts also will come automatically. So there is no need of wasting time. Just like see in the nature there are so many millions of living entities. They have no business, they have no profession. These birds, early in the morning, they have no fixed (?) (figs?). But they know there is food somewhere. They go to a tree and enough fruits there are you eat. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. They have got their nest upon the tree, and another female bird is there already. So he has sex life and they try to defend themselves in their own way. So these things, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam, these four things, by nature it is already given. You haven't got to try for it. Simply you have to try for spiritual emancipation. That endeavor should be engaged.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that in this higher state of consciousness, rather than just enjoying objects, that one is able to contemplate them as they are, to understand them as they are. One is able to understand objects, things, as they are. Most people are on the level… On the mental level, we are capable of enjoying objects; they give us pleasure, but we are unable to understand them as they are. But in this higher level, he says that people will be able to understand things as they are, as well as enjoy them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our philosophy. Just like common man is seeing a rose flower, but a devotee is studying that rose flower, "How God's energy is acting that through His energy such a nice thing has come out. Therefore it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa's property." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. "It is Kṛṣṇa's production, it is Kṛṣṇa's property. So it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa." And devotee, after offering it to Kṛṣṇa, then, as prasādam, he smells. This is higher consciousness. In the lower consciousness: "Oh, here is a beautiful flower. Let me take it and enjoy it."

Śyāmasundara: Pure enjoyment without any understanding.

Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lower consciousness and higher consciousness. An animal eating, he is also eating. A man is eating. The man should be developed consciousness that eatable is given by Kṛṣṇa. As it is stated in the Vedas, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. "The Supreme Lord is supplying all the necessities of life." So "Kṛṣṇa has given me these necessities of life, so first of all let me offer it to Kṛṣṇa." That is called yajña. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyanti sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, everything should be done. Otherwise, he will be entanglement. So this is called higher consciousness, fructified consciousness. Just like the flower has got different stages: bud stage, then little grown, then little… Once you'll find it fully grown, nice, beautiful rose, and fragrant. That is, when a human being comes to that full grown consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the whole world, the process of world evolution is moving toward that point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Toward that point, nature is giving chance, but because you are living entity, you have got independence, you may not take the chance.

Śyāmasundara: Your idea is more that certain individuals will attain that point, but not the world as a whole.

Prabhupāda: No. World as a whole will… Just like we are… Kṛṣṇa is teaching that "Surrender unto Me," but who is taking Kṛṣṇa's teaching? That is independence. If Kṛṣṇa is assuring that "You just surrender unto Me, and I give you protection from all resultant action of sinful activities,"… People suffer for sinful activities. Just like we are keeping the account nicely so that when we present to the government they may not see any flaw. So we are keeping account nicely. That means we are trying to save ourself from sinful activities. And if there is discrepancies in the account, that is sinful activity. So as soon as there is discrepancy, one has to suffer. So Kṛṣṇa says… But the material world is so made that even if you do not want to act sinfully, unconsciously you will act so many things sinfully. Unconsciously. Even you have no desire. Just like we had done that. Unconsciously we did not take the certificate, and we are suffering. There was no intention to violate this rule, but unconsciously we did not do it. Now we have to suffer. So similarly, unconsciously or consciously, we are acting so many things sinful. Just like when you are walking on the street, you have no desire to kill animals, but on account of your walking, so many ants are being killed. So you are responsible for that. Therefore that vyādha, that hunter, he was jumping. He knows. He has become devotee. So he knows that "Any creature may not die." So he was jumping. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person knows that "I cannot kill even an ant." But unconsciously or consciously, we kill. Suppose we are drinking water. There are so many germs we are killing. And when you rub the spices, there are so many germs are killed. When you ignite fire, so many germs are killed. Therefore Vedic injunction is that pañcasuna-yajña. You must perform yajña daily so that you may be saved from the sinful activities you have committed unconsciously. So that cannot be saved. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Just surrender unto Me and I will give you protection from the resultant action of any kind of sinful activities, consciously or unconsciously." And why the people are not taking advantage of it?

Śyāmasundara: So you don't see that the whole world will evolve to this.

Prabhupāda: No. That is a nonsense proposal. It is a nonsense proposal. Just like sometimes we are questioned by some rascals that "Swamijī, if everyone becomes God conscious, goes to back to home, then who will remain here?" (laughter) Just see the nonsense. He is anxious, who will remain here. He is not anxious for himself. (laughter) It is an argument that "Everyone becomes honest, then who will go to the jail? (laughter) To keep up the jail is very important business. You see? So these are foolish questions. You see?

Śyāmasundara: In his time, 1880, 1890, everyone was very optimistic about the future of man. They thought, through scientific discovery, that everyone would become…

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense because they think, "Whatever we like, by nature's way we shall be promoted." Just like in some meeting in Mombassa somebody asked that, after… Some Aurobindo group, that… No, theosophist. That one man is there; he has no degree. So why not degree?

Śyāmasundara: …then he goes back.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he has got elevation, he has degradation. This is common sense affairs. If you become rich, you can become poor also. Why that once you become rich and there is no question of becoming poor? Is that guaranteed? These nonsense questions are asked even by so-called theosophist and so many there are. You see. They have no common sense even.

Śyāmasundara: His definition of God is that God is the source in nature to support and produce values. What is good, what is true, values, this is God, the source of these values.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is value. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me and all questions solved." So it has value. That we also admit. But it is up to me to accept that value or not. That independence God has given me. Otherwise, everyone would have been Kṛṣṇa conscious and surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Why they are not doing that? Even God is value, to accept that value depends on me.

Śyāmasundara: He said that God is the whole universe and that we are parts and parcels, that man is part and parcel of God.

Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, that is explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Every living entity. Why man? Every living entity is part and parcel. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. But they take that "Cow is not living entity. It has no soul. So let us eat. It is eatable." That is their nonsense philosophy. That is not fact. Everyone. Even the… All living entities are part and parcel of God.

Śyāmasundara: These evolutionists, they consider… They don't think there is a soul. They think that the cow is an organism, and we are just more advanced organisms. So we have the right to slaughter the cow because we are more advanced.

Prabhupāda: Now, tiger is more advanced. He has the right to kill you. Why you say you are advanced? Why you ere claiming that you are advanced? When a tiger is there, he kills you and eats you. He is more advanced.

Śyāmasundara: He is more fit to survive.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why do they not say like that?

Śyāmasundara: But we have developed high powered rifles to kill tigers.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is defense. So the tiger has also defense: claws and nails. So defense will be… When there is fight between man to man, does it mean because man is highly developed and he will not be killed? When there is fight between man to man there is chance of one being killed. So similarly, when there is fight between tiger and you, one being killed, what is your superiority? Simply nonsensical. Simply nonsensical. Therefore our conclusion, "Simply rascal," is perfect. Anyone who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is simply rascal. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that once one has emerged through a process of evolution, once one has emerged to the higher types of evolution or the so-called deity form, he sees that the lower deities or the inferior…, the lower organisms would strive to emulate him, to become like him. Just like the animals would strive to become like men.

Prabhupāda: This is not striving. By nature's way the lower animals, they come to the platform of man. Jīva-jātiṣu paryayaḥ, it is called. Paryayaḥ means one after another. There is nature's help. Up to the human being, that law works. And human being, being developed conscious, so he has got the power of discrimination. Because originally the soul is given independence. Just like Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. "Whatever you like, you do." That is the original connection. God is the Supersoul; we are soul, under Him, subordinate. So we are called taṭastha, means marginal. Marginal means we can remain either way. Either on God's side or māyā's side. That is my choice. So when we don't want to serve God, then we are sent to the māyā, to serve māyā. Māyā means his position as servant remains the same, but he thinks "I am master." That is māyā. He is Just like a child trying to do something father does not like. But when he cries, he's given that. "All right. Do this." But "All right, do this" or "Do that," he is under the father. He is under the control of the father. But when he is given such chance, "Oh, I am independent now. I am independent." So this is called māyā. He's never independent, but he thinks, "I am independent." Similarly, here also Just like we Indians, we have got independence. So what kind of independence? In British period there was not so much dependence. These rascal laws, that you have to go So many things. You cannot move now. In British period the Indians had independence to move all over the world by expenditure. Now we cannot go. So we have got independence, but we have become dependent in so many ways. This is called māyā. So whole world, they are thinking that "I am independent. My nation is independent." Nobody is independent. Everyone is dependent under the laws of material nature. When death comes, nobody is independent. Either American, Indian, or There is no question of independence. But when we think that "I am independent," although I am dependent in so many respects, that is māyā. That is māyā. Māyā means what he is thinking, that is not fact. That is called māyā. Mā-yā. What you are thinking, that is not a fact. So daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So he is continually serving the māyā, life after life, but still he is thinking, "I am independent." So the right intelligence is, actual independence is, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is your real independence.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that all lower forms of life strive to emulate the higher forms of life.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. Everyone wants to become higher than what he is. Because he is trying to become master. He is trying to… His whole problems is that he is trying to be master. So he comes to master to some extent. Suppose he is working in an office, he is a head clerk, master of several clerks. So he is not satisfied. He wants to become a superintendent. When he becomes a superintendent, he wants to be under-secretary. When he is under-secretary, he wants to become secretary. When he becomes a secretary, he wants to become minister. When he is made minister, then he wants to be the president. And when he becomes a president, he wants to control all over the world, just like your Nixon. So this progressive ambition is there in the material world because any materialistic man is implanted with the idea that "I shall become like Kṛṣṇa." So when he fails everything, then he wants to merge into the Kṛṣṇa. Māyāvāda philosophy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He does not know that… He is already Brahman, but he thinks that "I am the Supreme Brahman. I am moving the sun. I am moving the…" Meditating. He is moving the sun. He is moving… Just another imitate. That is the last snare of māyā. Māyā is giving him allurement that "You become a minister, you become secretary, you become a big merchant, you become a Birla. You…" "Become become become." (S)he is always dictating, and he is working under the dictation of māyā. The last dictation is, "Then you have failed all these things. Better you become God." (laughter) So he thinks, "I am God." And māyā is still kicking. As soon as God gets some toothache, he'll have to, another… So he goes… "After all, what kind of God you are? You come here for toothache cure." This is another man.

Śyāmasundara: And actually it may be true that the lower forms are trying to emulate the higher forms, but it is also the reverse is true. Just like the hippies, they are trying to emulate the hogs.

Prabhupāda: Well, the hippies, they are nonsense. What is the value of their anything? They have no value. They are crazy, mad fellows. That's all. There is no philosophy, nothing of the sort.

Śyāmasundara: He calls… What you said is that māyā is the urge within nature to desire the next step of evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He wants this, he wants that. Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Next step… No. Up to human form of life, by nature one is making progress automatically. One after this, one after this. That evolution. Jalajā nava… Just like from aquatics, you become trees, plants. (aside:) Telephone. Telephone. Somebody go. From trees, you become insect. From insect, you become birds or reptiles. From birds, you become beast. From beast, you become a human being. This is going on by nature's way. Just like a goat. A goat has to live in this body for certain years. Then he becomes something, other animal, and he has to live in that body for some years. Then he becomes another body. This is change . In this way he comes to the human form of life when his consciousness is developed. Now, when… Amongst the human form of life, there are many species of human form of life. So when one comes to…, I may say, in India, when he's born in India, that is the highest perfectional point because there is Vedic knowledge. So he can take advantage of the Vedic knowledge. And by taking advantage of Vedic knowledge, he understands that "I am part and parcel of God. Therefore my real business is to go back to God. Why I am suffering in this material world?" That is perfectional stage.

Śyāmasundara: But the urge to improve oneself, to attain the next stage…

Prabhupāda: This is the urge for improvement. Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that "All living entities are My part and parcels." This instruction can be accepted only by human beings, not the cats and dogs. Although He claims that "Every living entity is My part and parcel," the cats and dogs, they have no capacity to understand these, I mean to say, utterances of the Personality of Godhead. Even he has got an ear. You are hearing, a dog may hear. But you can capture; the dog cannot capture. Due to his lower grade of body, he cannot. So in this higher grade of body, the Vedic instructions are there. Now you can make your choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. As Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "Whatever you like you can do." So now it depends upon you. If you don't accept the real progressive life, understand Kṛṣṇa and surrender unto Him, then you will go back.

Śyāmasundara: Is it not that because our real nature is perfect that we're always striving to become perfect again? Striving to reach that point again?

Prabhupāda: Yes, your nature is perfect. Perfect means you have got independence also. So you can perfectly misuse also, independence. That is perfect.

Śyāmasundara: But there is always that urge, even among the lower animals, to improve themselves, be promoted.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is being done by nature. That is evolution. Darwin has taken this idea from the Vedas, but he has no soul idea.

Śyāmasundara: But he mentions the point, what is that urge? Why do I want to improve? What is that urge that makes me want to…

Prabhupāda: It is not his urge. Nature is giving him the impetus. Just like when you are young, there is no sex urge. When you are a small boy, there is no sex urge, but as soon as you come to a certain stage, say, sixteen years, you immediately… The sex urge is there within you, but it was not developed in your childhood. But as soon as you go, come to the youth-hood, there is. Similarly, the perfection of consciousness is there, but unless you come to the stage of human being, that is not developed.

Śyāmasundara: In the animals it may take the form of trying to survive. That's all. The animals want to survive. They want to live.

Prabhupāda: Their only business is how to eat, how to sleep. Where to get eating, eatable things. That is their business. They have no other business.

Śyāmasundara: It is said that the low form of striving to improve…

Prabhupāda: That is struggle for existence you can say. They are simply trying to live. They have no other ambition. That's all. But if a man…, if the living soul, after having come to the stage of human being, if he also simply tries for these four things, eating, sleeping, mating and defending, then he is no better than animal. So nowadays in the modern civilization, simply these things are taught: how you can live comfortably with a car, with a bungalow…

Śyāmasundara: So the urge, the urge to improve or to advance…

Prabhupāda: (aside, Hindi:) Aiye aiye. Give them something, sitting place. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: The urge to advance is there in the human more developed. How does that…?

Prabhupāda: You can give this side. This side. Yes. Why not this fan is running? What is that? All right. Let them sit.

Śyāmasundara: In the human beings, we can see that everyone has the urge to become something better or something more.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. They can understand English. Ah, yes.

Śyāmasundara: We notice that in all human entities there is an urge to advance or improve oneself, to become something more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That I have already explained. Because all living entities have come into this material world, their propensity is to enjoy. Enjoy. So he is enjoying one standard of life in one stage of life. But he wants more, better standard. Better standard. The spirit is enjoyment. That is the disease of material science.

Śyāmasundara: So the urge has become perverted. The urge to advance has become perverted to the urge to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, perverted, perverted. His position is to serve, but… He is serving his senses, but he's thinking that "I am enjoying." This is called māyā. Actually, he is serving his senses. Just see, to enjoy, to make money, how much they are working hard, day and night. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham [SB 7.9.45]. They are working so hard, but because there is hope that "I shall become millionaire," he is thinking happy. Actually, he is working very hard. More than an animal. More than an animal. Animals, they work hard, but as soon as they get some food they are satisfied. But human being is not satis He will eat only that four capatis, but he is not satisfied. That is the nature's. The Bhāgavata says that human being is so passionate that he works hard, very hard, and he thinks that "I am happy." He thinks, "I am happy."

Śyāmasundara: This urge to become something more is bad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā. That is māyā. He cannot be happy in any position. He cannot be happy. But he thinks that "I'll be happy. If I go to that place, or that position." Just like the modern scientists, they have finished their all happiness here. Now they are, they are trying, "If we go to Candraloka, then we shall be happy."

Śyāmasundara: But isn't this urge to advance… He says this urge to advance is the desire to become godly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Everyone wants to become godly…

Prabhupāda: No, no. The desire, desire means that he has lost his real happiness. His real happiness is with God, dancing with God. Just like gopīs, they are dancing with God. That is real happiness. That is his nature. Ānandamayaḥ abhyāsāt. Vedānta-sūtra says that "By nature he wants ānanda, ānanda." But because he is seeking ānanda in a perverted way, he is being confused and frustrated. Therefore he is thinking "Not this stage, that stage will give me happiness." So when he goes to that stage, he again finds unhappiness. Because he is wrongly selecting, that "This is the stage of my happiness."

Śyāmasundara: And then eventually he'll reach the point where he realizes, "All that is unhappiness," and then he will turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, the most confidential part of knowledge, that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This will give you happiness because constitutionally you are made like that. Therefore in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka there is happiness, eternal happiness because they are all surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Just like in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana, ell the gopīs, all the cowherd boys, all the cows, all the trees, everyone-simply center is Kṛṣṇa. How Kṛṣṇa will be happy.

Śyāmasundara: So everyone is striving to return to that stage…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: …and they have simply perverted their drive…

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are confused and frustrated. This is called māyā.

Śyāmasundara: Their advancement is misplaced.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, māyār bośe yāccho bese kācho hābuḍubu bhāi. Just like one man is being carried away by the waves and he is sometimes dipping, sometimes coming out, sometimes dipping, sometimes So our position is like that, that we are being carried away by the waves of this material nature and we are sometimes being drowned, sometimes coming out. When we come out, we breathe little. We think, "We are now happy." He forgets that "Again I shall have to be drowned." So in this way we struggle. This is called struggle for existence. And "fittest" means when we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, then our fitness is spiritual. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: But still, there is that urge to become godly, to be godlike.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is godly. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is the realization, "I am Brahman." But he is thinking "I am matter. I am this body." That is the cause of his unhappiness.

Śyāmasundara: So this urge is what's propels all of evolution. Everyone is striving to advance back to that stage of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Yes, nature, in lower life, lower animal life, nature is giving him, "Yes, you come to this, come to this, come to this, come to this." Like that.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the next stage of evolution, the qualities of the next stage we cannot know at this point.

Prabhupāda: No. He cannot… He does not know, but we know. (chuckles) He has no… He is unfortunate. He has no connection with Kṛṣṇa; therefore he does not know. But one who has got Kṛṣṇa as his master, as his teacher, he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is the Vedic injunction. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man, being a part of God, that he is capable of cooperating with God to make further progress in the universe.

Prabhupāda: That is… Yes. That is his life, to cooperate with God. That is his real life. But here in this material world he is simply noncooperating. He's simply noncooperating. Unless he is noncooperating, why Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender unto Me." That is simply noncoop… Anything here, karma, jñāna, yoga, anything… Other animal life, you throw away. Even in the higher level of human life, where karma is regulated, jñāna is there, knowledge is there, and yoga is there, but because there is no surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they will not help you to become happy. So that… Caitanya-caritāmṛta says bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakale aśānta. Aśānta means restless. Restless. Bhukti means karmīs. They want simply sense enjoyment. They are called karmīs. And mukti, the jñānīs, they want mukta, mukti. So they also want something. The karmīs, they want everything for sense gratification. When they fail sense gratification, then one wants mukti. That is also another demand. Another demand. Ordinarily, they are demanding, "Give me nice building. Give me nice motor car, nice wife, nice money, bank balance, give me this, give me this, give me this." Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpapati bhājaṁ dehi yaśo dehi. Dehi dehi dehi. This is karmī. And when he is frustrated, after asking many, many times, even becoming Birla, he is not satisfied, then next he wants, "I want mukti." That is also another demand, subtle demand. And the yogis, they also demanding, "Give me this mystic power. I shall become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. I can fly. I can walk over the water." These are yoga-siddhis, eight kind of yoga-siddhis. So they are also demanding. Only kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma ataeva śānta [Cc. Madhya 19.149]. Kṛṣṇa bhakta has no demand. "Sir, I am your eternal servitor. I surrender unto You. Now you do whatever you like with me." So therefore he has no demand. So only Kṛṣṇa bhakta can be peaceful. No other else. Either karmīs, jñānīs, or yogis, nobody is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa also says that

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

[Bg. 5.29]

This is śānti. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, that He is the supreme enjoyer, bhokta, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend, then he becomes śānta. That is peacefulness.

Śyāmasundara: He says that man should cooperate with God to usher in the next stage of higher consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And in this respect man is responsible for evolution. Man…

Prabhupāda: Well, when we speak of… When he is prepared to cooperate with God, that is the highest evolution. That is the highest… Nobody wants to cooperate with God. Everyone wants to noncooperate with God.

Śyāmasundara: He says it's within man's hands, that man is responsible for the next stage of evolution.

Prabhupāda: What is that next stage of evolution? If he surrenders, that is the highest evolution, highest platform. Then simply enjoyment. There is no more evolution. Evolution, ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada-pañcarātra]. If you have come to the point to worship the Supreme Lord, ārādhito yadi haris, then there is no more question of evolution. Tapasā tataḥ kim. Tapasā, tapasya, austerity, penance, they are required for elevation. So ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. When you are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, there is no more question of evolution. That is the highest evolution. And Bhagavad-gītā also says,

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāriṇi

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

He is already Brahman. Anyone who is engaged in the service of the Lord, avyabhicāriṇi, without any adulteration, pure devotion, then he is already Brahman. He hasn't got to seek for again becoming Brahman. Māṁ ca 'vyabhicāriṇi bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān sama… He immediately transcends all the three guṇas, the sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. And brahma-bhūyāya kalpate, he is Brahman. Without becoming Brahman, how he can serve the Supreme Brahman?

Śyāmasundara: So the next stage of evolution, if it is to be higher stage than the present man…

Prabhupāda: Higher stage, that evolution they do not know. Just like in Vaiṣṇava philosophy, śānta dāsya sākhya vātsalya mādhurya. The first, when you have come brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, that is called śānta. "Oh, God is…" Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When one understands. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], after many, many births, when one comes to this conclusion that "Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything," sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ, that is śānta stage, mahātmā, great soul. Then, from śānta stage, the development is dāsya stage, to serve Kṛṣṇa. Not simply appreciating Vāsudeva. "Vāsudeva is great, God is so great." Not so much, simply appreciation. "Oh, God is so great? Then I must give some service to God." That is next stage. Dāsya-rasa. Then next stage is vātsalya-rasa…, sākhya-rasa, to give service to God just like Arjuna. Arjuna gave service to Kṛṣṇa but as a friend. That is called sākhya-rasa. Then vatsalya-rasa, to give service to Kṛṣṇa just like mother Yaśodā. She has become mother. Mother gives always service to the baby, his (her) child, and Kṛṣṇa is passing His childhood pastimes before mother Yaśodā. Mother Yaśodā is always thinking, "Kṛṣṇa is hungry. Oh, Kṛṣṇa is getting skinny. I must feed Him. I must protect Him from the monkeys. I must protect Him from fire." Always anxious how to give protection to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving protection everyone, but the devotee has become so great that Kṛṣṇa is taking his protection, her protection. Then, after vātsalya, then mādhurya-rasa, the gopīs or girlfriends. And of all of them, Rādhārāṇī is the highest. She is trying to make happy Kṛṣṇa in so many ways, sixty-four arts: how to dance, how to cook, how to make peace, how to smile, and Kṛṣṇa is captivated by Rādhārāṇī. Therefore the devotee says Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana, He can captivate Madana. But Rādhārāṇī is Madana-Mohana-Mohinī. She captivates even Madana-Mohana. That is the highest stage of mahā-bhāva, Rādhārāṇī's stage. So in the spiritual life there are so many developments. Although there is no difference. It is not that those who are serving Kṛṣṇa as friends just like cowherds boy, and as Rādhārāṇī is serving Kṛṣṇa as consort, there is no difference in value, but spiritually there is estimation of value. Rādhārāṇī's stage is the highest stage.

Śyāmasundara: So if this platform of consciousness is to be attained by everyone, it is the responsibility of men to cooperate with God…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That cooperation begins when God says that "You surrender unto Me," and if he agrees, that cooperation begins.

Śyāmasundara: In other words, it won't happen automatically.

Prabhupāda: Unless you surrender, where is the cooperation? Where is the cooperation? Just like all my disciples, because they have surrendered, so there is cooperation. Therefore this movement is increasing. Otherwise, alone what can we do? Because you are cooperating with me, therefore I am advancing this movement. If you noncooperate with me, I am old man. What can I do? So similarly, Lord Caitanya comes, Kṛṣṇa, to invite cooperation. He says that "Please cooperate with me. Let me spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is freedom of the will in two different senses. One, activity that is surely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and… Activity that is merely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and expression of integrated, self-directing persons acting in a purposeful, coherent way in order to serve the best interest of all. In other words there is the freedom of the will, which is merely not subject to extraneous forces, and there is also the self-directing free will, who is aware of ethical values, and he is…

Prabhupāda: That two cooperation, two kinds of cooperation is going on. Just like in a state a citizen is cooperating as a free citizen. The same citizen is cooperating in the prison by force. The jail superintendent says, "Now you break these bricks." He has to do; otherwise he'll be punished. He is cooperating by force. But this cooperation is inferior cooperation. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. By constitutional position, a living entity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. In the Vaikuṇṭha jagat, the cooperation, the service is voluntary. And here in this material world the service is forced because it is māyā. Just like in the jail the service is there. One who declares that "I don't care for the government. I break all the laws." But he is put into jail. There is no question of breaking the laws, but by law he has to work forcibly. He has to do it. So here in this material world we are working under force of māyā. That is called daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. That force you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid. Only you can avoid when you voluntarily cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Śyāmasundara: He's using the sense of free will in two senses. Just like I would drive down the right side of the road because I know that it's the law. So I want to obey the law. And then the other sense would be I want to drive down the right side of the street in order not to harm anyone and for so many other reasons, a higher type of use of free will. One is automatic, one is more thoughtful.

Prabhupāda: So automatic cooperation is bhakti, and forced cooperation is karma. That is the… It looks the same thing. Karmīs and the bhaktas are working… Just like we are working in the same way. Karmī is typing and a bhakta is typing. It looks the same thing, but karmī is typing under force. His master has ordered, "You work it; otherwise you won't get salary." And a bhakta is typing for pleasing Kṛṣṇa and for glorifying Kṛṣṇa. So the typing looks the same, but the bhakta's typing and a karmī's typing different.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that freedom of the will is relative, that in our higher level it becomes clear that the lower stage was actually determined, predetermined or directed by external forces.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called karma-phala. That we have explained. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Unless superior superintendence he is working, and as a result of his work, he is getting a particular type of body for enjoyment or suffering.

Śyāmasundara: Even though he thinks he's free. He thinks he's free.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

He is being forced by the laws of nature, but he is thinking, "I am doing this." That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's a rascal.

Śyāmasundara: This man, Alexander, says that in the higher levels of evolution one can see that everything is determined in the lower levels.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore… Everything is determined; therefore we should not try for improving our economic condition because already it is decided. This sort of… Otherwise why you see so many varieties of standard of life? One is born rich and one born, he is working so hard, he cannot get even two morsel of bread. So everything is determined. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "For this material happiness, you don't try. That will come automatically as distress comes automatically." You don't try for distress, but it comes upon you. Similarly, whatever happiness is due to you, it will also come to you. You try for developing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is your business. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. That is intelligence.

Śyāmasundara: He says that values are relative between a particular man and a particular object that one man's food is another man's poison.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we have taken, Kṛṣṇa consciousness has value and material consciousness no value. So value also different according to the different persons.

Śyāmasundara: And he says the basis for determining or judging which values are best is by the principle of coherence, that is, by agreement among the most people willing to accept it.

Prabhupāda: That means authority. What is value. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "You become Kṛṣṇa bhakta," because He is authority. The Veda says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Veda says that "Search out Kṛṣṇa." So the authority, what the authority says, that is valuable.

Śyāmasundara: But he says not the authority. He says by the most willing people…

Prabhupāda: That we see… He's going… He's going… Veda is accept by everyone. All learned scholar. Who can decry Vedas? Only the rascals will decry Vedas. Otherwise… Just like in our country, India, all the big ācāryas, they accept Vedas as the basic principle. So who can decry? Veda says that the stool of cow is pure, and it is accepted. Everyone. All Hindus, brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, and the ācāryas, they accept that cow dung is pure. Why? Veda says. In another place, Veda says that "Stool of any animal is impure," but this stool is pure. So we haven't got discrimination. We accept that. Other animal stool is impure. But the cow dung, the stool of cow, we immediately accept as pure, and we apply it in our Deity room and make is purified. That is Veda. You cannot contradict . You cannot argue Vedas. That is also…

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that the majority will accept something.

Prabhupāda: Well, in India majority accepts Veda. Now they have become rascals, that is a different thing.

Śyāmasundara: Now they accept wine…

Prabhupāda: That is a different thing. But in India all the authorities, all personalities, unless you accept Vedas, you are called nāstika. Therefore Buddha philosophy was driven away, Caitanya Mahāprabhu veda nā māniyā bauddha haila nāstika. Simply Lord Buddha says, "I don't care for your Vedas." Lord Buddha wanted to preach nonviolence, but in the Vedic literature there is violence. There is violence. Just like Gandhi wanted to prove from Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Where is nonviolence there? Where is that nonviolence? Kṛṣṇa is inducing Arjuna to fight, to become violent. So how can you prove there is nonviolence? These are all nonsense. So similarly, in the Vedas there is recommendation that animals can be sacrificed in the Vedas with mantra. That… Therefore the process, to test the power of the mantra, that animal is put into the fire and the animal again comes out with a new life. That is the test. Just like you test how the microphone is working. So how the Vedic mantras are being chanted rightly, that is tested by putting… Just like in laboratory a small animal is killed. But that is killed. They cannot give life. But here, in sacrifice, aśvamedha-yajña, gomedha-yajña, there is… Gavalambham, aśvamedhaṁ gavālambham [Cc. Ādi 17.164]. The animal sacrificed, but it comes again with ill life. That is the test, how the Vedic mantra is chanted. So because there is no such qualified brāhmaṇa, therefore in this age all kinds of sacrifices stopped. So Veda is no authority. The mantra has no life. So that is accepted by everyone. At least, civilized class of men. Actually, unless there is this varṇāśrama-dharma, the classification of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, that is not civilized form of life. So according to Vedic conception, the modern civilization, European, American, that not civilized form of… And actually it is happening. The result is producing. And because India accepted the Vedic culture, in spite of two thousand years onslaught by foreigners, they are standing still. Many of them fallen, but the basic principle is still standing. Just like we are teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on the basis of Vedic principle. I have not manufactured anything. And it is becoming successful. So the Vedas is so nice. Even foreigners are accepting the principle.

Śyāmasundara: So if the majority of the whole world accepted Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he would call that of value.

Prabhupāda: No, the majority may not accept. You see, if you want to sell jewels, a diamond, you cannot get many customers. That is not possible. But still, diamond is diamond. It may not have many customers. It doesn't matter. If there is one customer, that is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca taraḥ sahasrasaḥ. If there is one moon in the sky that is sufficient to dissipate all darkness. There is no need of thousands or millions of stars. So our movement, if anyone, through all men in the world, can understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will do tremendous good to the people. My Guru Mahārāja used to say like that.

Śyāmasundara: So he searched around for those values that are most accepted by the most people and he found they are truth, beauty, and goodness are the three main values. Truth, beauty, and goodness.

Prabhupāda: Well, it is a false proposition. In the material world nobody likes truth. They always want to place untruth, at least in this age. The majority of people are not truthful. As soon as one becomes truthful, he's a brāhmaṇa. (end)

Prabhupāda: So? What is the…?

Johann Gottlieb Fichte

Śyāmasundara: We're discussing this German philosopher, Fichte. Last… We had discussed the whole philosophy then we lost the last half of the tape so I'll just start where we left off. Just to review slightly…

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you, whatever you have got, you get it transcribed and send it to Hayagrīva Prabhu.

Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm pretty much going to have to edit this because…

Prabhupāda: Then we'll edit. All right.

Śyāmasundara: Fichte's idea is that the world is a rational unified system which is directed toward a purpose and that the self-consciousness…

Prabhupāda: It is opposite to that philosophy. He said there is no purpose.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He said there is a purpose.

Śyāmasundara: This man is coming about 1800, 1820. Sartre's contemporary. In those times…

Prabhupāda: Before him.

Śyāmasundara: Much before him, about 150 years ago. He takes as the absolute first principle the self-consciousness or the evil(?), "I am", the awareness that I exist as an absolute a priori first principle.

Prabhupāda: That is Vedānta. We are studying what I am. That is Vedānta philosophy, to study what I am. And the answer is given by us, Vaiṣṇava philosophers, that you are eternal servant of God. This is Vedānta. Everyone is searching what I am, we are giving the answer: "You are eternal servant of God." Now let them refute this that he's not servant, he's absolute(?). Our answer is there. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahman, the spirit soul. What is this spirit soul, what I am. What is the supreme. So, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's answer is already there, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. The real identity of the living entity is that he's eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy or the search for truth begins with the self-conscious demand that one should think thyself, think myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā that you should meditate actually what I am. You go on analyzing your body, "Am I these hands? No, it is mine. Am I this head? No, it is my head." So naturally, you come to the point, "Then where I am? I am saying everything mine. Ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. What is that I?" That is replied in the Bhagavad-gītā, (indistinct) kaunteya, kṣetra (indistinct). This body, I am not body, you study, it is the field which is given to me for acting. Just like if you are given one jurisdiction, some field, so act there, work there. Similarly, this body is given to us by nature as field of working. Therefore, this yogic meditation, this is consciousness, and I am not this body. That is the beginning of knowledge. Before that (indistinct) thinking that he's this body, he is no better than animal. Big animal. Here is the knowledge. When one understands that he is not this body, something beyond this body-"I am not this body, this is my body"-that is knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: This Fichte actually comes to that conclusion because he borrows from Kant and develops this idea of the dialectic that there's thesis, the antithesis and it becomes combined in synthesis. He puts forward the idea that the ego, the subjective identity that the thesis has given and opposing that is the antithesis or material nature. Just like my body is the antithesis of my ego, so it is non-ego. So he says ego, non-ego, there's a continuous struggle.

Prabhupāda: When I think that I am this body, that is false ego. That is false ego. Because I am not this body. So those who are falsely identifying this body, (indistinct) they're animals. They're (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: So he sees that the world is made up of a combination of continuous struggle of dialectic between the opposing elements of ego and non-ego. My subjective identity and the objective world are continually locked in struggle, endlessly, and this is the way things are going on.

Prabhupāda: Not endlessly, but if you understand that you are not this body, then this ignorance is ended, immediately. So you cannot say it is endless.

Śyāmasundara: He says that there is a gradual evolution towards self-realization if one uses his reason.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is gradual process of evolution is from animal kingdom to human life. When one comes to the human form of life then the realization (indistinct) is there.

Śyāmasundara: So he seeks to combine these two types of reason, Kant set up. There's pure reason and practical reason or moral reason. In other words speculative reason and practical reason or moral reason.

Prabhupāda: Practical, practical reason is that if I think I am this body, then where is the difference between dead body and living? Living body means I am in this body, that is living body. As soon as I give up this body, I go and accept another body. Then it is dead body. So this is practical reason, that without the soul this body is a lump of matter. It is very practical. Therefore soul is different from this matter.

Śyāmasundara: He says that our progress towards this kind of understanding comes about because we unify our speculative reason, our theoretical reason with our practical reason or our moral reason.

Prabhupāda: This is practical. Anyone can understand that when the body is, does not contain any more the soul, then it is dead, dead body, lump of matter. So spirit soul is different from the matter. This is practical. If anyone cannot understand, then he's less intelligent. This is practical.

Śyāmasundara: His idea of ultimate reality is that it is the moral ego or pure will that…

Prabhupāda: Then he has to define what is morality.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everyone says, "It is my morality." Everyone can manufacture (indistinct). Just like, for example in India if somebody talks of homosex (indistinct) immoral, and here it is going on. (indistinct). So what is morality? (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He uses the categorical imperative that Kant set up, the different categories of goodness and badness.

Prabhupāda: That means if you are in the modes of goodness, your morality is different from the morality of the man who is in the modes of ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: But he says that everything should be understood in terms of what it ought to be, that there is an absolute good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: And every activity should be understood in terms of that absolute good.

Prabhupāda: That, that we say liberation. One should be free from the material contamination. That is our… Because under material condition, he is in three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance. So one who is in goodness he does not approve conclusion in ignorance. And one who is in ignorance, he thinks it is better.

Śyāmasundara: So if one is looking on the objects of the world in terms of what they ought to be…

Prabhupāda: Ought to be, how you'll know it? Unless he gets information from the higher authority what is ought to be? You cannot manufacture. If you are in the modes of ignorance, your "ought to be", just like they're saying the animals have no soul and we are saying, "No, you cannot kill animals." So we are in different position. So what is "ought to be", who will dictate? If you dictate yourself, your concept of killing, it "ought to be". And my concept of not killing, is "ought to be". So what is the standard?

Then you have to go to the authority, go for judgement.

Śyāmasundara: These German philosophers, they generally accept the Christian standard of morality to be what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: That's also good, but Christian morality, who is abiding by Christian morality? The Christian morality, in the beginning it is said "Thou shalt not kill," and they're all killing. So it will be very difficult to find out a real Christian who is following the morality. "Thou shalt not covet," and they're doing all this nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Any rate, he's more or less investigating just what is the nature of man without going into the goals.

Prabhupāda: That we have got. Nature of man, nature of living entity is that he's eternal servant. He is serving. Everyone is serving. Who is a living entity where in this world he can say that "I am not serving, I am absolute, I am nobody's servant"? Everyone is serving. Either he's serving māyā or Kṛṣṇa, that's all. When he is in knowledge, he is serving Kṛṣṇa and when he's foolish, ignorant, he's serving māyā. That's all. But he must serve. Just like a citizen, he must abide by the order of the state. If he abides by the order of the state in an ordinary way, then he's a good citizen. And if he (indistinct), then he will have to be forced to abide by the order of the state (indistinct). But in all cases he must abide by the order (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He also sees things in that way. He sees the unfolding of reality as the fulfillment of duty, that one must always strive for what ought to be, what is fulfillment of his duty.

That, that information we are giving that in reality everyone is servant, but he is under misconception, he's thinking he's master and he's forced to serve māyā. This is reality. Just like a outlaw, he is thinking that free from the state law but he's forced to abide by the state law in the kingdom. Similarly my position is I must carry the order. I am inferior. I must carry out the order of the superior. The superior, the supreme superior is Kṛṣṇa. If I voluntarily become the servant and carry out His order, then it is my normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Otherwise it is abnormal life. I have to serve māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā will kick upon my face and force me to do something, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. So I will be servant of prakṛti, material nature. That means I will be servant of my senses. By nature, my senses dictate, "Now you do this," I will be forced to do it. This is my position.

Śyāmasundara: When you spoke earlier about what the definite idea of what is good, to strive for, if you were to say that "Thou shall not kill" is good, then what if Kṛṣṇa says "Kill"? Then that doesn't have any meaning, "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Thou shall not kill." Where Kṛṣṇa has said, "Thou shall not kill."

Śyāmasundara: Well, he tells Arjuna…

Prabhupāda: Arjuna. Other words(?) is not for you. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa says to kill?

Śyāmasundara: No, I'm saying that…

Prabhupāda: That is our-Kṛṣṇa is absolute. He can order anything He likes, but you have to carry out Kṛṣṇa's order. If Kṛṣṇa says you to kill, then you can kill. You cannot say that "Kṛṣṇa has said to Arjuna to kill, therefore I shall kill."

Śyāmasundara: So what I mean is instead of saying that this is good and that is bad, all you can say really is what is good is what Kṛṣṇa says.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa's order is what is good.

Prabhupāda: That is actually doing. Actually in our experience also, just like a soldier, he kills by the order, superior order of the state. He is given gold medal. And if the same man, when he comes home, if he kills, he is hanged. Why? Because you can kill under superior order, not whimsically. Generally the order is not to kill, but if he says now kill, you can… that is order, that you have to take. And if you say at that time, "Sir, you told me not to kill," that is (indistinct). General order and specific order. So Kṛṣṇa says, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 13.8]. He is giving the process of knowledge, amānitvam adambhitvam, not to be proud, ahiṁsā, nonviolence. These are there, eighteen qualities for understanding spiritual values. So it is general. Now for particular purposes if Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, you must kill," you must abide by that order. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: So the standard of what ought to be is that one should fulfill one's duty to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is good, that is moral, real morality.

Śyāmasundara: So Kṛṣṇa uses the same terminology that one should fulfill his duty and if this is the what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: Duty means superior order. That is duty. You cannot manufacture your duty.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is a little impersonal because he says that we discern what ought to be from the forces of nature around you, reality unfolding.

Prabhupāda: Then he abides by the forces of nature. That is nature is superior. He does not know beyond nature there is another superior being, that is God. That is his lack of knowledge. That is the difficulty. If you are not perfect, where is that philosopher?

Śyāmasundara: He sees an intelligence acting in nature.

Prabhupāda: Anyway he accepts the superiority of nature, superior position of nature. He accepts it. So but beyond the nature there is a… the Supreme Personality Godhead. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Under My direction nature works. So he has no vision to see the background of nature.

Śyāmasundara: They term nature as the unfolding of events, as a thing in itself. They don't understand that beyond that is the controller.

Prabhupāda: That is lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. So these persons with poor fund of knowledge, they should not take the position of a philosopher. This is misguided, misleading. That is going on. Mental concoction, speculating, without any authority.

Śyāmasundara: This idea of Fichte means duty…

Prabhupāda: And what is the duty? Unless there is superior order, you ask me to do something, then where is your duty?

Śyāmasundara: Well, to do our duty is to do what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: Who has prescribed that this is ought to be?

Śyāmasundara: Well, the world order prescribes what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: World order, what is that world order? Is it blind?

Śyāmasundara: Harmony, whatever causes harmony…

Prabhupāda: What is harmony, who will define? You say this is harmony, I say this is harmony. Therefore our philosophy is perfect. We are taking our duty from the Supreme. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], that is authority, only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and abide by His order.

Śyāmasundara: Actually his philosophy has that loophole, that there's no

Prabhupāda: Every philosophy will be loophole. Everybody, that we shall find out, others cannot find out, what is that loophole.

Śyāmasundara: Because of this, the German state was able to step in and say, "Your duty is to follow us."

Prabhupāda: Who are you? The question is, "Who are you?"

Śyāmasundara: I am Hitler. I control the…

Prabhupāda: That is "Might is right." But Hitler was finished now. That anyone can say, the tiger can also say. "Might is right. I am powerful, you must (indistinct)."

Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy must begin with the assumption that being is nothing but that duty is absolutely everything.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Without being how you can do your duty?

Śyāmasundara: That being, being doesn't strive for what is, being is always striving for what ought to be. He always has a sense of duty. There should be something other than this that I must…

Prabhupāda: That Supreme Being, He can be (indistinct) up to. You, you cannot do such. You commit mistake. Therefore you do not know what is ought to be or not to be.

Śyāmasundara: Just like this propensity is there in men not simply to be satisfied with what is but always to strive for something improving, what ought to be.

Prabhupāda: So we, we give that ultimate ought to be that you will become surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa. That is ultimate ought to be.

Śyāmasundara: And he says that everything should be seen in relation to that what ought to be (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our philosophy. If it is approved and Rūpa Gosvāmī says, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.167], our ought to be is what is Kṛṣṇa approves or His representative approves. That is ought to be. Our standard. Otherwise it is not, not ought to be. Therefore we accept our guidance (indistint). Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore Vedas say that one must approach a bona fide spiritual master, in order to be fully in knowledge. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. These are Vedic injunctions. One who has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, he knows everything. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Veda means in knowledge. So ācāryavān, one who has accepted ācārya. Therefore our principle is to follow the ācārya. In Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, ācārya upāsanam, one must worship ācārya, to go to the right knowledge. So that is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: In his epistemology or his study of knowledge he said that events are not made necessary by causes, but that everything is motivated by its own purpose. In other words if I drop this…

Prabhupāda: That means there is no chance.

Śyāmasundara: No chance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of chance.

Śyāmasundara: If I drop this and there is a reaction, a noise, it is not because this caused the noise but that each thing is motivated by its own purpose.

Prabhupāda: But there is already the law, if he falls down there will be noise(?). The thing is already there, but it becomes manifested under certain circumstances, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that dropping of this does not cause it to be necessary that there is noise, but that because the world purpose is unfolding…

Prabhupāda: Where is that… Causeless means… There are two kinds of causes, efficient(?) cause and (indistinct) So it may be (indistinct) cause where there are many remote causes. But ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1].

Śyāmasundara: That's his idea. He's looking at the ultimate cause, there is a motivation for everything. It's not accidental, that nothing is, no event is…

Prabhupāda: That we say, there is no such thing as accident.

Śyāmasundara: In other words if I perform some act with the expectation that something will result, it's not necessary that that act, that will result. There's no necessity for that.

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy, that let Kṛṣṇa sanction. There cannot be (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: There's no necessity…

Prabhupāda: I may try to do something with my expert knowledge but still if it is not sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa, it will not (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: There's no necessity by cause.

Prabhupāda: Ultimate cause is He, daivī. That is (indistinct) in the Bhagavad…, five causes. So out of five causes, the daivī is providence. Providential cause is primary.

Śyāmasundara: More than the others.

Prabhupāda: Others is place, the worker, the means.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: In Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You may be very expert but the ultimate will be daivī cause is not in favor, it will not (indistinct). Here example is just like you (indistinct) your service, suffering, sick, and you are employing first-class doctor, first-class medical, first-class attendant there is no guarantee that you (indistinct). Then where is the cause? What is the cause? From the scientific world you can say that my (indistinct) I have appointed first-class physician, first-class medicine, first-class, everything, but my son died. Then where is the power?

Śyāmasundara: Whatever caused this person's death is the ultimate cause.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa does not sanction your so-called first-class medicine, physician, place, and everything will be spoiled. And if he sanctions, even you don't appoint any physician, he will (indistinct). Rakhe kṛṣṇa mareke mare kṛṣṇa rakheke. If Kṛṣṇa kills nobody can save him, and if Kṛṣṇa saves, nobody can kill. Just like Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu. They made plans that they'll never die, but Kṛṣṇa killed them. No condition will be (indistinct). That is our philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: That's it. He says here, of all things the ego is uncaused, the spontaneous self-consciousness…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am living force, the ego must be there. I am. And that I am may be misplaced: "I am this body or this mind." Real I am, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, that is real I am.

Śyāmasundara: So the I am is not caused by anything.

Prabhupāda: No, I am is eternal, Kṛṣṇa is eternal, and I (am) also eternal.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that the noncaused ego posits the nonego, or it gives them meaning, existence. It gives…

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy, nonego means although I have got my identification, I am, still I have sacrificed everything for Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says "You do this," I don't say, "I will not do." I don't impose my will. I sacrifice my individuality. Kṛṣṇa says, I must do. Therefore my ego is not there.

Śyāmasundara: He uses the same example of Barthe(?) that essais persice(?) means that this exists because I perceive it, that all these non-ego objects are…

Prabhupāda: No, that we don't agree. It exists independent from our perception.

Śyāmasundara: But it must be perceived by someone to exist.

Prabhupāda: That is different (indictinct) the one who has manufactured it (indistinct). So similarly, God is in (indistinct) of everything, I may not. That is described in the Bhāgavata, anvayād itarataś ca, anvayād (indistinct) sa abhijñaḥ. He is not (indistinct). Nothing can be concealed from the vision of God.

Śyāmasundara: So to be is to be perceived but because God perceives it, it exists.

Prabhupāda: Without God nothing can exist.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that we come into this world and these objects are here…

Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. (indistinct). He is the originator of everything, anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu, indirectly, directly, whatever there are, He knows everything. I do not know who has manufactured this, I see only but I do not know (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says we come into this world and we posit or we bring into existence the material objects, non-ego objects but the duty of the practical reason to guide these objects properly, to utilize them according to the practical will.

Prabhupāda: Then you require the shelter of Vedas. He will give you direction how to live. You have come in this material world for fulfilling your material desires therefore the Vedas give you direction that you try to fulfill your desires in this way, so that one day you may come to your original.

Śyāmasundara: He says that all of nature as we see it is only illusory sense material reflecting the ongoing moral necessity of reality of the universe.

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. Mirage, sometimes mirage, if you see in front of the water in the desert. Actually there is no water in the desert, but you see under illusion. But you know, you are human being, you know that there is no water, you don't go after it. But the animal will go after it and he'll lose his life because (indistinct). He wants to take that water, and the water also goes ahead. In this way when he's too thirsty in the midst of desert he becomes dead. So that is the difference between man and animal. So the human consciousness, when it is developed, you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become detached with this material mirage. He does not run after the false water. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Others may go after the false water. That is called māyā, or illusion.

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that by observing the material energy that we can get an idea of what is the real duty of the universe. You can perceive it in the ongoing fluctuations of material nature, the duty or reality of the universe.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. If he is ignorant, how he can understand? There must be direction, guidance.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the pure speculative reasoning…

Prabhupāda: No, that is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: But this pure speculative reason must be unified with practical reason also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But practical means he will require guidance. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: He says the institutions such as laws can participate in this unfolding of the reason of the universe, duty of the universe for instance by controlling conflicts between personalities and so on. Law, the laws of the state, the laws of (indistinct) can participate in the unfolding of the universe, the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We accept that personality may be (indistinct), not that we pick up any man from the street and we accept guru. That will not (indistinct). Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12], one who has heard properly from his spiritual master and as a result of such hearing he is perfectly in God consciousness (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: How does this fit in with what I was just saying about institutions such as laws, things like that. They can participate in the purpose of the universe, in bringing out the purpose of the universe. I make a law that you shall not kill, does that participate…

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot make law. Law can be made by God. You have to abide by the law. You cannot (indistinct), you are imperfect, how you can make law? Your law will be imperfect.

Śyāmasundara: The state cannot make laws to (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: State is (indistinct) because we have no other experience beyond the state. But the state also, according to Vedic civilization, state means he must be king. King must be representative of God. So king is therefore called naradeva. That we have discussed in the matter of Pṛthu Mahārāja. So king is supposed to be representative of God and he has to execute his royal authority by direction of God. The brāhmaṇas and the sages, they give him direction. These things are being very thoroughly discussed when Pṛthu Mahārāja in the Fourth Canto. That is civilization.

Śyāmasundara: He appreciates that. He says that the institutions of civilization can help bring out the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Purpose of the universe is already there, but you have to know it through proper channels. But if you speculate then you will be misled. That's all. They want to speculate, that is their defect.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world, he calls it the stuff of duty, the world is made up of the stuff of duty.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Stuff of duty, because duty means you are abiding by the superior order, that is duty. So we accept Vedas, the superior order. When it is stated, order in the Vedas, then we accept. That example we have given several times, if the Veda says that cow dung is pure. Once it is said that any stool of animal is impure. Then Veda says, "No, cowdung is pure." So you cannot argue that once you said that stool of animal is impure, how you say that cowdung is pure? You cannot contradict. You will have to accept it because it is order of the Vedas. (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He sees that everything in the world, all nonego objects, all the objects of the world are seeking to realize themselves. Everything is seeking to realize itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, seeking, therefore if you take advantage of a perfect person, then that seeking will be (indistinct) very soon understand. Otherwise he'll hover in the oblivion. That's all. Our process is we are seeking but we are going to the Absolute Person, Kṛṣṇa, and you are taking the knowledge, immediately. That saves our time. If you are seeking, considering your (indistinct) very great scholar, research scholar, then you are misled. Our process is very nice. Therefore tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], the injunction is you must approach a bona fide spiritual master to make a short cut of the searching.

Śyāmasundara: Because everything is seeking to realize itself, that that means there is a moral order to…

Prabhupāda: Certainly.

Śyāmasundara: So that each individual must act according to his duty and his conscience in this world.

Prabhupāda: No. Conscience, an entity is Kṛṣṇa conscience, it is useless.

Śyāmasundara: Conscience.

Prabhupāda: Conscience, yes. A thief, he also prepares his conscience. When he goes to steal he says, "I must, because I have to maintain my family. I do not know any other business, I must." This is his conscience. The other conscious is, "No, no, no I cannot steal. It is sin." So where is the conscience? Conscience is not standard. You make your, manufacture your own conscience. Therefore you have to take advice from Kṛṣṇa conscience. That is real conscience. Whether it is (indistinct) with Kṛṣṇa conscience, that is (indistinct). Otherwise he created own conscience.

Śyāmasundara: It is that the supreme principle of world order is freedom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, freedom. Our present condition is not freedom. We are completely under the laws, te 'pi svatantra rudhāṇī vardhya (?). They are tied up by the ropes of material nature, hands and legs, and still they are thinking, "I am free." That is illusion. Nobody is free. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. We are seeking freedom but nobody is free. Nobody is free. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27], they are pulled by the ear, "Do this." Prakṛteḥ. You have to do this.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the free will, which creates itself or realizes itself is the truest of all realities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if by free will if you choose to surrender to Kṛṣṇa they you'll get your real free will, freedom. Otherwise you are under the clutches of māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature, that is not…

Śyāmasundara: He says, contrary to Kant, he says that the practical reason is primary, is the first thing, that what is practical is superior to what is…

Prabhupāda: Practical, this means, suppose I want to do something, I do not know, then I go and ask a superior person who knows it. Just like when you drive your car, you are going somewhere, so you take the direction from the signpost, this way go, this point here, this village. Similarly, for practical purpose you have to approach a person who knows. That is practical. And if you think that I shall do it myself, without consulting anyone, that is not practical, that is theoretical. You will be misled. At least we are prone to be misled.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the reason is subordinate to the will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, thinking, feeling, willing, so willing, I want to do something, I apply my reason, that is intelligence. If we do it intelligently then it is good, and if I do it foolishly then it is bad. Will is there.

Śyāmasundara: Will is (indistinct) will is primary reason.

Prabhupāda: No. After reasoning, then you will. After reasoning.

Śyāmasundara: First reasoning, then willing. He says the opposite. He says that reason is subordinate to will.

Prabhupāda: That can be also.

Śyāmasundara: He sees the will as practical, practical reason…

Prabhupāda: This thinking, feeling, willing, they are all taken together as reasoning. What do you think? What is the psychology? Hayagrīva(?) Prabhu? What is there? Thinking, feeling, willing, do you think that you shall be a rich man, you think. Then you make your process how you will become a rich man, then work will (indistinct). Or you will, thinking, feeling, willing, "Yes, I must be rich man," then how you can in this way, that way. But intelligence is above thinking, feeling, willing. Everyone, a dog also thinks he'll feel, he has no intelligence. He has intelligence (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He says that all reasoning comes about as a result of our desires or our will, whatever we are willing, then we begin to reason.

Prabhupāda: That is not willing, that is thinking. That is not willing.

Śyāmasundara: Rationalizing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, thinking. I am thinking to become like this. If we generally say like that, "I am thinking." Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: I am thinking to go somewhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I am thinking. So if there is any difference between thinking, feeling and willing then thinking first.

Śyāmasundara: Will, willing something is more like desiring something, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: That desiring begins from thinking.

Śyāmasundara: Contemplating the objects of the senses one (indistinct). He says that if one combines rational thought with his will then this will help him towards self-realization.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Śyāmasundara: If he combines rational thought with willing…

Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the rational thought comes?

Śyāmasundara: That is an a priori fact, that I think therefore I am.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: But we cannot…, pure thought process, I cannot do anything more than think myself. I can think that I think therefore I am.

Prabhupāda: You can think, but if you are helped by somebody else who knows the way, then it becomes easier. You are thinking of driving a car. If somebody expert… (break) …that is practical. Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that it is very difficult because the nonego objects are always trying to lead us astray.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to take advantage of an experienced man who knows things. He does not accept any superior.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the moral goal, the moral reality of (indistinct) is the ultimate in superiority…

Prabhupāda: That morality we have already discussed, what is the morality. You can create your own morality, I can create my own morality. What is actual morality?

Śyāmasundara: Maybe that's a good place to end. (end)

Discussions with Hayagrīva dāsa

SOCRATES.HAY

Socrates

Hayagrīva: …that Śyāmasundara treated, but they're somewhat incomplete, so I will read. I've gone to the primary sources. He used a college outline series that wasn't really adequate. So I went to the primary sources, and I'll read a little, and if you want to comment on it, comment. If you don't feel like commenting on it, I'll just go on to the next section.

Once a student of Socrates-this is a section on Socrates-said, "I cannot refute you, Socrates." To this Socrates replied, "Say rather that you cannot refute the truth, for Socrates is easily refuted." This is by way of saying that the Absolute Truth is not a subject of mental speculation or personal opinion. The Truth, or the good, for Socrates stands separate from mundane relativities or personal opinion.

Prabhupāda: That is our opinion. We accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, and therefore we cannot refute what Kṛṣṇa says. And our philosophy is perfect because we follow Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Perfect. This is our position. In other religious system, taking it our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement religious… It is religious, because our religion means the…, to carry out the order of God. That is the sum and substance of religion. We don't manufacture religion, and neither religion can be manufactured. Manufactured religion is useless. That has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as dharma kaitava. Means cheating. So this is not cheating religion. Our basic principle is dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the order which is given by God, and if you execute that, that is dharma. Just like law. Law is given by the government. You cannot manufacture law. That is not law. So our perfection is there, how we are executing the order of God cent percent. One who has no conception of God, neither the order of God, they can manufacture religious system. But our system is different.

Hayagrīva: (aside:) This is picking up fine, the reading? Socrates considers the contemplation of beauty to be an activity of the wise man, but relative beauty in the mundane world is simply a reflection of absolute beauty. In the same way, good in the relative world is simply a reflection of the absolute good. In either case, absolute good or beauty is transcendental.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our opinion. Beauty, knowledge, strength and opulence-everything-they are transcendental. Here, in this material world, it is perverted reflection. Just like the example is the mirage. A fool, animal, is thinking there is water in the desert, and he is running after it, and after sometimes he dies of thirst because there is not. But a sane man knows there is no water; it is simply a reflection by the sunshine, and this foolish animal is running after it. So he does not…, a sane man does not go for this false water. But another thing is that because there is no water in the desert, it does not mean there is no water. Water is there, but not there. Similarly happiness, beauty, opulence-everything is there. That is in the spiritual world. Here it is only a perverted reflection. So generally people have no information of the spiritual world; therefore they imagine something God, something spiritual world. They do not take that "This is imagination, this material world." When Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9], they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but this simple thing they can not understand, that a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, after giving up this body-the body has to be given up-then what happens? Kṛṣṇa says mam eti, "He come to Me." And other system says that after death he goes to hell or goes to heaven. So that is to some extent fact. This human life, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, he goes to the eternal abode-you can take it as heaven or something. Otherwise he remains in this material world to undergo the same cycle of birth and death. That is hell. It can be taken in that way.

Hayagrīva: According to Socrates, the pursuit of man is the seeking of this absolute good. Basically Socrates is an impersonalist because he does not ultimately define this absolute good as a person, nor does he give the absolute good a personal name. He just calls it "the good."

Prabhupāda: That is preliminary stage of understanding the Absolute. Because the…, the beginning, Brahman realization, impersonal, and then further advanced Paramātmā realization, localized, God is everywhere. And God is everywhere, that's a fact. That is God. But He has got His place, abode. That is God, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhuto [Bs. 5.37], that God is Person, He has His own abode, He has his own associates and everything. Difference is that although He is in His abode, He is present everywhere, even within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. So Socrates or any other philosopher, they cannot understand the potency of God, how He can remain in His own place, simultaneously in every atom. That is the conception of God. So everywhere He is staying. Everything is His expansion, His energy, the bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. The material world is bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ-land, water, earth, air. So these are different expansion of God's energy. So He can be present everywhere because His energy is expanded everywhere. So energy and the energetic, they are not different, but at the same time energy is not the energetic. This simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, this is perfect philosophy.

Hayagrīva: For Socrates, he taught a kind of a process of liberation. For him, liberation meant freedom from passion.

Prabhupāda: Freedom from?

Hayagrīva: Passion, passion.

Prabhupāda: Passion, yes.

Hayagrīva: And his motto was, "Know thyself." And by knowing oneself through meditation or insight one can gain self-control, and by being self-controlled one can attain happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Meditation means to analyze oneself-that is real meditation-and find out the Absolute Truth. That is the description in the Vedic literature. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino. Yogi means by his meditation he is seeing the Supreme Truth, Kṛṣṇa, or God, within himself. Kṛṣṇa is there, and so a yogi consults Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa advises him. That is the relationship with yogi. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. One who is purified, he is seeing Kṛṣṇa always within himself. That is confirmed in the Brahmā-samhita, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. A saintly person, advanced, he is seeing Kṛṣṇa, yaṁ śyāmasundaram. The very word used, Kṛṣṇa is śyāmasundaram, very beautiful blackish, the Personality of Godhead, Śyāmasundaram. Śyāma means blackish, but extraordinarily beautiful. That is called śyāma. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpam [Bs. 5.38]. Acintaya, unlimited qualities. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham… He is govindam. So it can be realized that He is situated everywhere, at the same time in His person He is always engaged in Vṛndāvana dancing with the gopīs and playing with His friends and talking with His mother, and sometimes as naughty boy He is teasing mother's household affairs. So this is Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: It's been said that Socrates's philosophy is primarily a philosophy of ethics, and that…

Prabhupāda: Atheist?

Hayagrīva: Ethics, ethics…

Prabhupāda: Ethics.

Hayagrīva: The way, the way to…

Prabhupāda: Ethics, yes.

Hayagrīva: The way of action in the world. And the jñāna, or knowledge, in itself is not sufficient, but it must be applied and must serve as a basis for action in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification. Unless one does…, knows what is moral and what is immoral… Of course, in this material world everything is immoral, but still we have to distinguish good and bad. That is called regulative principle. Simply by following the regulative principle, if he does not reach the ultimate goal of spiritual life, so that is also not wanted. The real aim is to come to the spiritual platform and become free from the influence of these laws of material nature. So passion is the binding force in the material nature. Just like in the prison house the prisoners are kept sometimes chained by some iron shackles and other method, so material nature has given the chain, shackles, of sex life, passion, rajas tamaḥ. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Rajah-guṇah means the modes of passion. So modes of passion means kama, lusty desires, and krodha. When the lusty desires are not fulfilled, one becomes angry. But these things are the means of bondage in this material world. In another place it is said, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. When one is afflicted with the base material modes of nature, namely rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, then he becomes greedy and lusty. So ethics require to get out of the clutches of greediness and lusty desires. Then he comes to the platform of goodness, which will help him to go to the platform of spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: But is meditation in itself…, would that be sufficient to transcend these lower…?

Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation, if he seeks after the Supersoul within himself…

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: …that meditation is perfect. And if he is manufacturing something or bluffing others and bluffing himself by…, in the name of meditation, transcendental, it is useless. It has no value.

Hayagrīva: Well, he feels that if one knows himself one will be a sādhu, because knowledge is identical with virtue.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And through meditation-they call…, he called it arete (?)-a person attains knowledge. Through knowledge a person becomes virtuous. When one is virtuous, he acts in the right way. When one acts properly, he becomes happy. Therefore the enlightened man is a man who is meditative, knowledgeable, virtuous and, because of his proper action, he is happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. This is the symptom of self-realized person. If one is self-realized, he is immediately happy, prasannātmā, jolly, because immediately he is on the right. Just like one is going on under some mistaken ideas, and when he comes to the real idea, he becomes very happy: "Oh, so long I was going on such a mistaken idea." So immediately the result will be happiness: "How foolish I was. I was doing like this, doing like that." So right…, as soon as one comes to the right position, he, the symptom is he is prasannātmā. What is that prasannātmā? Na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Prasannātmā, happiness, means he has no more anything to hanker. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varam: "I don't want any material benediction." Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "My Lord, don't tell You want me for any material benefit. I have seen so much afflict. My father was so big materialistic that even the demigods, they were afraid of him. You have finished it within a second. So I am not after these things." So this is real knowledge, that na śocati na kāṅkṣati, he has no more hankering. The karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they have got hankering. The karmīs, they are hankering after how to get material wealth, how to get material position, how to get nice woman, how to get nice position. That is karmī. Their business-simply hankering, hankering. Bancruptcy (?). And if they have lost, they cry, "Oh, I have lost it, I have lost it, I have lost." Two business. So when one becomes self-realized, these two things are conspicuous by absence: no more hankering, no more lamenting. The karmīs are hankering; the jñānīs, they are also expecting to become one with God, to merge into the existence of God. That is also hankering. The yogis, they are hankering after some magic power so they can befool others that he has become God, "I can manufacture gold, I can fly in the sky," and foolish people after them. Intelligent person will see, "What is this perfection? Even if he can fly in the sky, there are so many birds are flying. What is the difference between this flying and that flying?" So he doesn't care. So these are not perfection. But they, people, foolish people, they think it is perfection. If one can say that "I will walk over the sea," actually say it shall happen, thousands and thousands fools will come. Just as, the same thing, that there is a man advertises that he will show how he can bark like dog, people will pay ten rupees ticket and go to see how a man is barking like a dog. But he doesn't hear so many dogs are barking, creating disturbance. So this is going on. Some extraordinary power, showing, making one karmī, jñānī, yogi, but a devotee, he is so satisfied in the service of the Lord, he doesn't want anything, all this nonsense. That is perfection.

Hayagrīva: You once mentioned that Greeks, the ancient Greeks were chased out of India where… They were kṣatriyas chased out of India by Parāśara Muni, something like that. But Socrates was confronted with a society that on one hand included what were called Sophists-these were more or less mental speculators; they were paid money to philosophize or to speculate-and humanists, who said, "Man is the measure of all things." They…, no belief in God or any higher force; nothing beside man. And with the demigod worshipers, the Greek pantheon of gods were very much like the demigods described in the Vedic literatures, like Zeus was like Indra, and Athena was like Sarasvatī. They retained…, the Greeks retained their worship of the demigods, but there is no mention of a Supreme God under whom everyone else served, and Socrates, on…, neglected the worship of these demigods. He felt that there was no use in worshiping the demigods, and he stressed meditation on the self, on the highest good which resides in the heart, which must correspond to the Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And so in teaching this he was teaching something radically different, and this is one of the reasons that he was condemned to death-for blaspheming the demigods, for blaspheming the gods. He felt that the worship of these gods did not lead to self-realization at all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ tyajante anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. They worship other demigods, being too much lusty. Because the demigod is worshiped for some material benefit. So they have been described as hṛta-jñānāḥ. Hṛta-jñānāḥ means one who has lost his intelligence. Actually it is so. Suppose by worshiping a demigod, Sarasvatī, the goddess of learning, so you get the opportunity of being a, becoming a very nice scholar. But how long you shall remain scholar? As soon as the body is finished, your whole scholarship is finished. Then you have to accept another body, and you have to act according to that body. So how you have…, this scholarship will help you? But if you worship God, as Kṛṣṇa says, that janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ… [Bg. 4.9]. To worship God means to know God, actually what is God, more perfect-how He is managing, how material nature is working under Him. People cannot even imagine that God can be person, but here is everything person. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My supervision the material nature is working." So these impersonalists or less intelligent persons, they cannot understand that how a person can dictate the wonderful activities of the material nature; therefore they remain impersonalist. But actually, person. That is the understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. God is person. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior authority than Me." So when He says mattaḥ, that means there is a person, person. So…

Hayagrīva: Bhakta.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Bhakta.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, God.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: God is person.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior authority than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the origin of everything. Everything emanates from Me." And the Vedānta-sūtra confirms, "The Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes," janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So the Absolute Truth is person, and Arjuna, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma. That is Absolute Truth. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So really understanding Absolute Truth means to understand His personal feature. He has got three features: impersonal feature, localized feature and personal feature. So brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. All of them are the same truth, spiritual truth, but different phases or different features. The example is given, just like you see one mountain from a very distant place, very distant place, you see the hazy something like cloud. Then you come nearer, you see something green, there are trees, like that. And if you will come still nearer, you will see, "No. It is not only trees and hazy but there are houses, there are men, there are animals." So actually the same thing, the mountain from a distant place, but because one is far away from the mountain, he sees the same mountains are impersonal, and if he comes little nearer, then he sees Paramātmā, personal within, present everywhere. And when he comes again still, he sees the same person is still there; He is dancing and playing. This is the difference.

Hayagrīva: So through jñāna, through the path of jñāna, Socrates may have realized Brahman, he may have realized Paramātmā…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …but there was no way to realize…

Prabhupāda: No, there is way…

Hayagrīva: …Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: …there is way, if he makes further advancement. The same example, the same mountain is there. From a distant place you will say hazy cloud; nearer you see something green, there are trees; and still you go farther, you will see everything perfectly.

Hayagrīva: But I thought Kṛṣṇa can only be realized through bhakti, through…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …devotion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can not enter in Kṛṣṇa's place without being a purified bhakta. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. He never says that by jñāna or by karma or by yoga one can understand Him. It is clearly stated, in many śāstra, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] only through devotional service one can understand Kṛṣṇa. The personal abode of Kṛṣṇa is especially reserved for the bhaktas. Therefore all jñānīs, yogis, karmīs, they cannot; they remain outside, that there is the sunshine and the sun. To enter into the sun is not so easy thing, but sunshine anyone can remain. The temperature is not so hot; you can tolerate it. But although the sunshine and the sun not different, in the sunshine, sun globe, if you enter, if you have go the power to enter, the same light and same temperature… Not same, I mean to say, temperature and light. So the temperature of sunshine, light and temperature, is not the same as the temperature and light in the sun globe. [break]

Hayagrīva: Now Socrates, as a teacher, in addition to believing in the value of insight or meditation, Socrates also believed that knowledge can be imparted from one person to another. He therefore believed in the role of a guru or teacher, which he himself was for many people. He believed also in good association amongst people who were interested in self-realization, and he followed the method known as the Socratic dialogue as a means for evoking the truth. Now, he would use a method called Socratic irony, in which he himself, Socrates, would pose himself as an ignorant person and would ask questions of his young disciples. He would never offer the answers, but would try to draw the answers out of his disciples, and this was called the mayudic (?) method. So he considered himself to be a kind of midwife-in fact his mother was a midwife-who would draw the truth from the repository in the soul. He felt that the truth was there within but had to be drawn out, and that the truth is dormant within everyone, that the individual possesses the truth previous to birth in an existence previous to earthly existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So almost similar to our method, because we advised, we advised in this Vedic principle, that for the truth one must approach a guru. That is the version everywhere. In Bhagavad-gītā also, same instruction is there:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

So you have to approach a guru who knows the Absolute Truth. "Knows" means he has seen. Just like in our daily life, direct perception to see something, people argue on that, that "Can you show me God?" That is the tendency, that direct perception. So the direct perception is possible by advanced devotion. There is no difficulty because, as I have already explained, santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Constantly he is seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śyāmasundara. So there is a state when one can constantly see the Supreme Lord as Paramātmā sitting within his heart and taking advice from Him. Kṛṣṇa also confirms this: buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. He talks. So by meditation, if it is actually meditation to search out the Absolute Truth within the heart, then he can meet. That is the yoga practice. Yoga practice means concentrating the mind to see the Supersoul within. Therefore he has to control the activities of the senses from all other engagements. Then it is possible. Yoga practice, this dhyāna, dhāraṇā, āsana, praṇāyāma, these are why? Simply to concentrate the mind, focusing toward the Paramātmā, and then, when is perfect, he always sees. Therefore Kṛṣṇa confirms it in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

[Bg. 6.47]

"Of all the yogis, one who has learned to see Me within himself, he is first class." Others are bogus. The perfection of yoga means to see God within himself. That is perfection of yoga. So this process, as Socrates used to give chance to his disciple, that is good process, to give him chance to develop his understanding. The teacher helps. Just like the father and mother give the child. First of all he helps, taking his hand, "Now walk, walk," and sometimes he gives him pleasure: "Now you walk. Let me see how you walk. Now you walk." Although he sometimes falls down, but a father will encourage, "Oh, you are very nice. Stand up, stand up again. Walk." So give chance to the disciple how they can think properly to go back to home, back to Godhead, teacher is giving instruction and tries to see how he has developed. So that process is natural. And another process is that suppose a man comes to argue, so you should give him first chance, "All right, you say what is the import of these verses." Then he can understand his position, where he is. Then he captures him. Because an expert, he knows how to capture the fool. So let the fool first of all go on, talk all nonsense, then he'll understand where he is and he will capture. That is also a process.

Hayagrīva: Socrates, in a very famous allegory or metaphor, pictures humanity living in a dark cave, and the teacher has seen the light outside of the cave. He knows that there's something outside the cave that is light, and he may return to the cave to tell people in the cave that this is darkness. And the people in the cave, many of them would consider him to be crazy for speaking of such a thing as the light outside of the cave, and that this was a very, conceivably a very dangerous position to be in.

Prabhupāda: But actually that is the fact. Just like we are say so many times, Dr. Frog. A frog within the dark well, he is thinking, "Here is everything." And if he is informed, "Oh, there is big miles of water, Atlantic Ocean," so this Dr. Frog, from within the well he has never seen the Atlantic Ocean, and he cannot conceive that the water can be so expansive. So therefore those who are in the dark well, for them it is surprising that what is the light outside. But that's a fact. And one who has fallen, he is in the…, if he is crying that "I am fallen," so it is said that the man outside, he drops a rope, that "You catch this rope and I shall take it out." But he does not catch up. Just like we are presenting that you, everyone in the material world, you are suffering, you take, catch up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are refusing, or they do not admit; that is going on. But if one is fortunate, he can catch up the rope, and the man wants to help him, he can get him out. But he has to catch up. It is Kṛṣṇa's advice also, that "You are crying, you are suffering, you are finding, trying to find out how your suffering will be ended." That materialist, they are doing their own way, and the impersonalists, they are doing in their own way; the yogis, they are doing in their own way. Everyone is trying to get out of the suffering. But when Kṛṣṇa says that these things will not help you, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], he does not catch up. That is his misfortune. God Himself says that "You take." "You take Me" means by His instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. "You take to Me, you will be saved." But they will not. That is their obstinacy. And the Vedas therefore says, tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ: "Don't remain in the dark well. You come out to the light." But they will not come to the light. They want to remain in the dark well. And if you want to become perfect, that is their misfortune. Within this material world it is darkness, just like the, just now it is evening. It is giving us that actually it is dark. Because Kṛṣṇa has supplied the sun, moon, therefore it is light. But there is another place where, without sun, without moon, you will get light. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: na yatra bhāsayate sūryo, na pāvakaḥ, like that, there is a na yatra bhāsa, tad dhāma paramam, "That is My kingdom." So everything is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, but there is specially, that there is no need of sunshine, there is no need of moonshine, there is no need of electric light; it is all effulgent. So He is giving the information, but these rascals will not take. They want to make adjustment in the darkness of night. How it is possible? This is teaching also the nature's way of work. The sun is in the sky, but the arrangement is such that twelve hours it is darkness and twelve hours it is light. But sun is there always. There is no doubt about it. But the arrangement, this is just to convince us that actually it is dark. With the sunshine it is sometimes day and sunny. Similarly, happiness can be by the…, to remain under this sunshine, under the illumination of Kṛṣṇa. That is happiness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if you want to be happy in darkness… Just like in darkness at night the only happiness is sleeping and sex, that's all. There is no other happiness. And when there was dark in New York, electricity failed, and so many women became pregnant. (laughs) Yes. In the darkness this is the happiness: either you sleep or you enjoy sex. That is happiness. That is material world; therefore it is darkness. That is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

śrotavyādīni rājendra

nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ

apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ

gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām

[SB 2.1.2]

nidrayā hriyate naktaṁ

vyavāyena ca vā vayaḥ

divā cārthehayā rājan

kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā

[SB 2.1.3]

These materialistic persons, they have got many things to hear, śrotavyādīni, huge, big, big volumes of newspaper, so many rascal information. Why they have got so many engagement? Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam: [SB 2.1.2] because they do not know what is self-realization. Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. They think that to live in this family life surrounded by wife, children, friends, this is life. So better use this newspaper and talk all nonsense and waste time. Their engagement is nidrayā. At night they sleep or enjoy sex, nidrayā hriyate naktaṁ vyavāyena, and in daytime they hanker after money, runs the motorcar head-break speed, neck-break speed.

Hayagrīva: Breakneck.

Prabhupāda: Breakneck. And then what is the business? Searching out some means of food, exactly like the hog, he is loitering here and there, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And this is going on in the polished way as civilization. There is so much risk, as running these cars so many people are dying. There is record, it is very dangerous. At least I feel as soon as I go to the street, it is dangerous. The motorcar are running so speedy, and what is the business? The business is where to find out food. So therefore it is condemned that this kind of civilization is hoggish civilization. This hog is running after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And you are running in a car. The same. Purpose is the same: "Where is stool?" Purpose is the same. Therefore this is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization is, as Kṛṣṇa advises, that you require food, so produce food grain. Remain wherever you are. You can produce food grain anywhere, a little labor. And keep cows, go-rakṣya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Solve your problem like… Produce your food wherever you are there. Till little, little labor, and you will get your whole year's food. And distribute the food to the animal, cow, and eat yourself. The cow will eat the refuse. You take the rice, and the skin you give to the cow. From dahl you take the grain, and the skin you give to the… And fruit, you take the fruit, and the skin you give to the cow, and he will give you milk. So why should you kill him? Milk is the miraculous food; therefore Kṛṣṇa says kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya [Bg. 18.44]. Give protection to the cow, take milk from it, and eat food grains-your food problem is solved. Where is food problem? Why should you invent such civilization always full of anxieties, running the car here and there, and fight with other nation, and economic development? What is this civilization? Therefore we require to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness to become happy every way-economically, philosophically, religiously, culturally, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: One last point on Socrates. For Socrates…

Prabhupāda: Now this so-called civilization is darkness. That is my point.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is not in the light. They are fighting within darkness. Just like if immediately this room become dark, everyone (indistinct). There is fighting. Stop it. You are asking me, "Prabhupāda, where you are?" I say "Here," and you are going in the other room.

Hayagrīva: Well he pictures in the cave the, something like a cinema, on the wall of the cave…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …and everyone is sitting in the cave looking, absorbed in the cinema, these forms that are not actual forms but are imitation forms.

Prabhupāda: But that means darkness.

Hayagrīva: Uh huh.

Prabhupāda: Darkness, you are saying, "Prabhupāda, I am here," and I am looking here: "Where you are?" So that is the position of darkness. Everything you see, it is not clear. That is darkness. Therefore Vedic version is, "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." That light is guru. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā. This is guru's description. When we are in darkness of ignorance the guru, spiritual master, ignites the torch of knowledge. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalakā. Śalākayā means torch. Then he sees, "Oh, things are like this." In this way, when he becomes self-realized, brahma-bhū, then he becomes happy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati [Bg. 18.54]. That is civilization, to get the light. And to remain in the darkness and struggle for existence, that is not civilization; that is animal life. It has no value. That is going on. Therefore we are trying to give Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the greatest contribution to the human society. Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are not manufacturing, we are not bluffing like other swamis and yogis and philosophers. We are simply carrying the light, torchlight, which Kṛṣṇa has given. That's all. So our business is very easy-very easy and beneficial and practical.

Hayagrīva: The good that Socrates speaks of is not the same as sattva-guṇa. This is a quotation from The Republic. Socrates says, "This, then, which gives to the objects of knowledge their truth and to him who knows them his power of knowing is the form or essential nature of goodness."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "It is the cause of knowledge and truth, and so while he may think of it as an object of knowledge, he would do well to regard it as something beyond truth and knowledge, and precious as these both are, of still higher worth. And just as in our analogy light and vision were to be thought of like the sun, but not identical with it, so here both knowledge and truth are to be regarded as like the good, but to identify either with the good is wrong. The good must hold a yet higher place of honor. The objects of knowledge derive from the good not only their power of being known, but their very being and reality, and goodness is not the same thing as being, but even beyond being, surpassing it in dignity and power."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So goodness is the position where you can get knowledge. And passion and ignorance is not the platform of knowledge. Therefore the endeavor should be how to bring persons in the basic or base platform, ignorance and passion. So this is very easily done by our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If one hears about Kṛṣṇa, or God, then gradually he becomes freed from the clutches of darkness and passion, and actually he then comes to the platform of goodness. And when he is perfectly in goodness, then this passion and ignorance and their by-products cannot touch him. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19].

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

[SB 1.2.18]

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ

kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye

ceta etair anāviddham…

[SB 1.2.19]

If we hear Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā regularly, then we become free from the effects of the modes of ignorance and passion, gradually, although it takes… But it is sure. The more you hear about Kṛṣṇa, or-Kṛṣṇa means His instruction or about Him, what He is-the more you become purified. So that is the test, that how one has become purified means one is purified from the base quality of passion and ignorance, means that he is no more attacked by greediness and passion. That is the test. That means he is free from the base qualities, and he is situated, ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. When he is no more disturbed by these base qualities of passion and greediness, then he is happy. Then he becomes happy. Ceta etair anāvi…, sthitasya, that is goodness. That is goodness. Then he is happy, happiness, that the ultimate stage of goodness is brahma-bhūtaḥ, to realize himself, realize God. So goodness, one must come to the platform of goodness. So we are therefore asking people to give up these base qualitative activities-illicit sex and meat-eating and drinking or intoxication and gambling. These are base qualities. So anyone gives up these qualities, he remains in the sattva-guṇa. And then if he is promoted farther, just like Socrates said that goodness is not all, that still you have to…, and that is bhakti. Then his realization is perfect. He becomes liberated, and then gradually he develops love of God, then he is in the original state. Bhaktir hitvā anyathā. As mukti, liberation, means that to be free from this all nonsense engagements. Nitya-baddha, they are engaged, all these karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they are simply engaged in some false engagements to become happy. So when one is free from these false engagements, then he is in the liberated state. Mukti means muktir hitvā anyathā rūpam. Anyathā rūpam means he is acting otherwise. So one has to come to the real position, not work, act otherwise. So he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. When he fully engage himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa, then he is liberated, and if he keeps himself, then nobody can touch, the māyā cannot touch. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is very strong, but if one keeps in touch with Kṛṣṇa constantly, māyā has no jurisdiction. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. This is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: Transcendental to the modes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No more affected by the modes of material nature. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Such person is transcendental to the modes of material nature. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma [Bg. 14.26]. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. So every devotee, if he is strictly following the rules and regulation, he is in the brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Just like there is epidemic, but one who has taken the vaccine, the epidemic cannot touch it. So that is like that. Brahma, when you come to the brahma-bhūtaḥ state, let…, there may be māyā, there may be so many activities of ignorance and passion-he has nothing to do with. He is free. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ state. That is wanted. That is perfection.

Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of the additional notes on Socrates, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it was very, very nice.

Hayagrīva: And if new philosophers that we will present eventually, oh, um, I don't know if these were ever…

Prabhupāda: Actually the main philosophy is Socrates. He is (indistinct).

Hayagrīva: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, these have been done. Just a little, a few additions. But then there's Plotinus, Origen, and Augustine, and these were the three philosophers who shaped Christian thought or Catholic, the Church thought, Church fathers, and St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, Scotus and Eckhart, these are Christian…

Prabhupāda: So they are not philosopher; they are Christian with different point of views. So we are not going to discuss with a person he is from the stand…, deviating from the standard way and thinking in their mental speculation.

Hayagrīva: But these, these are considered philosophers…

Prabhupāda: Considered, but because they belong to a certain sect of religion…

Hayagrīva: Because they are followers of Christ?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are deviating from the original Christian father, so they are useless.

Hayagrīva: They do, they do deviate. They…

Prabhupāda: No, you can not deviate. Then no more you are Christian. So you can…, you have no platform to talk from the Christianity. Therefore they should be rejected.

Hayagrīva: Uh huh. So Plotinus was not Christian, neither was Origen…

Prabhupāda: If you say Christian, you must follow the four…, ten commandments of Christ. If you don't follow, you make your own ways to escape, then you are no longer Christian. So you cannot talk.

Hayagrīva: But Augustine was one of the ones who maintained that animals do not have souls.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is a rascal.

Hayagrīva: And this was accepted…

Prabhupāda: Now, what do you, what do you use, what the use to talking with a rascal? It is waste of time. (end)

PLATO.HAY

Plato

Hayagrīva: This is the additional notations on Plato. For Plato, the spiritual world is not a mental conception. For Plato, truth is the same as the ultimate reality, the ideal or the highest good, and it is from this that all manifestations and cognitions flow. Plato uses the word "idea" in order to denote a subject's primordial existence, or maybe it's archetype. I think that Kṛṣṇa uses the word bījam.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Bījam, seed, "I am the seed of all existence"?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Hayagrīva: For instance…

Prabhupāda: Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, that even the spiritual world and material world, everything is emanation from Him. The difference is, in the material everything is created and maintained then annihilated. In the spiritual world that is not the case. Just like material world this body, and spiritual world the soul. The body is created, maintained and annihilated; the soul is not. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After the destruction of the body, the spirit soul is not destroyed. What happens to him? He takes another body. And one who is perfect, he goes directly to Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. So we can make this life… Because we are preparing for the next life, so why not take advantage of going back to home, back to Godhead? This is our mission. You have to prepare yourself either for going to the higher planetary system, yānti devān deva-vratāḥ… You can go to the higher planetary system, you can go lower, and you can go to Godhead. So they, therefore, if I have to change this body and go elsewhere, why not go to God? That is intelligence. Now what is the advantage? If you go to God, then you will have…, haven't got to change any more this body. That is eternal, blissful. Therefore our intelligence should be utilized how to go to back to home, back to Godhead. That is intelligence.

Hayagrīva: Now you said to Śyāmasundara that water existed before our mental conception of H2O. We conceive of H2O, we think of well, what is…, we begin to analyze water, and we say, well, it's two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. But before we even began to think of this, water existed.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Therefore H2O is not the permanent essence or the primordial existence of water, but what Plato is saying is that everything that exists has its seed or essence or idea.

Prabhupāda: Seed is originally with Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Yes. The seed is, then, Kṛṣṇa says bījam, "I am the seed…"

Prabhupāda: Bīja ahaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Whatever is manifest, the original God had.

Hayagrīva: That… Is that the bījam is the unmanifest…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …is the unmanifest essence of an object.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Uh-huh. That…

Prabhupāda: Just like the tree. Before manifestation it is a seed, but within that seed the whole tree is there.

Hayagrīva: Plato would call that the idea or the archetype.

Prabhupāda: That is not idea; that is fact.

Hayagrīva: Not idea, fact.

Prabhupāda: Fact. If you sow a seed of rose flower, it will come as rose tree. If you grow a seed of mango tree, it will come as mango tree. So it is not idea; it is fact. Simply it is in nascent state, but it is a fact. You cannot make your idea, "Now here is a seed, let it be mango tree." It will not make. If it is rose tree it will come rose tree. So your idea has no value. Seed means the nascent state.

Hayagrīva: The na…, the…

Prabhupāda: Nascent. What is called?

Hayagrīva: Neh…?

Prabhupāda: Nascent.

Hayagrīva: Nescient?

Prabhupāda: Yes, nascent. What is the…

Hayagrīva: (sic:) Nescent.

Prabhupāda: What is spelling?

Hayagrīva: (sic:) N-e-s-c-e-n-t. To be…, not yet developed.

Prabhupāda: Manifested, yes, yes.

Hayagrīva: Plato states that the material world is restricted to limitations of time and space, whereas the spiritual world transcends time and space.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He also states that time began with the creation of the material world. And how does this comply with the Vedic statement that time is eternal?

Prabhupāda: Yes, time is eternal. The present, past, present, the three features of time, it is relative. What is your past or your future, that is not past, future, of Brahmā. Brahmā lives for millions of years. So within millions of years I had many past, present and future. Present…, past, present and future is relative according to the person, but the time is eternal. That is the point. It is clear? The past, present, future is relative according to the body. Otherwise time is eternal. Time has no past, present, future.

Hari-śauri: That means like time is actually like presence?

Prabhupāda: No. Presence… It is always present. Say just like a small germ, he lives for three minutes. So his past, present, future within three minutes, while I am living. So I am not within his past, present and future. Therefore past, present, future is relative. My past, present, future is different from the past, present, future of a small germ. That is the idea.

Hayagrīva: Now, concerning the creation, Plato says that material nature, or prakṛti, has always existed in a chaotic state, but that God takes prakṛti and fashions it into form in order to create the universe. So in this sense God is the hand worker or the master designer. God is the creator of forms from pre-existent matter, and yet He does not create directly.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: It's stated…

Prabhupāda: No. Just like I have created a machine to manufacture something. I am, I set on in motion, and the products is coming automatically, products are coming automatically.

Hayagrīva: Automatically.

Prabhupāda: Simply I have to set up the machine. Just like in a press, the machine has to be set up, and automatically you will see the magazines are coming all complete. The printing, the binding-everything complete; you simply take it now. There are many machines like that, that you set up the machine and simply stand and see how from the raw state it has come into the finishing state. So bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He has created such a seed that you sow the seed and that the tree will come. This is God's machine. He has created the seed only. Now the seed of the universe is coming from Him. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya [Bs. 5.48]. He is breathing, and thousands and millions of seeds of universes are coming, and they are becoming manifested. Same way, seed. And when He is inhaling, everything is finished. So this manifestation and not manifestation is depending on His breathing process. When He is exhaling you see the manifestation; when He is inhaling, everything is finished. This is going on. So the cause of creation and annihilation is His breathing. So He is breathing always, but the process of creation and annihilation is going on. But if you think, "Kṛṣṇa is breathing like me," then it is finished; your knowledge is finished. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. "Because I am speaking to these rascal like a human being, they are thinking Me as one of them." This is…, they are mūḍha. They are misled. As soon as he thinks Kṛṣṇa is, "Ah, He is a person like me. He is born in Mathurā, I have seen. How He becomes God?" Brahmā was bewildered. "This boy, this cowherd boy is accepted as God. Let me test." Indra was misled. Muhyanti yat sūrayoḥ. Even big, big demigods, they are also bewildered. So Kṛṣṇa answered them. Brahmā had stolen all His calves and cows and friends, and when he came to see what He is doing, they were the same. He has expanded Himself. He is surprised. "Well I have actually taken His calves and cows. They are sleeping under my spell." Then he answered, "Yes, He is God." Then he is praying there, in the picture.

Hayagrīva: Plato states that every object in the universe is made with some purpose, and its ideal goal is to move toward the ideal in which it's archetype or essence resides. So according to the Vedic version, Kṛṣṇa is the all-attractive object of the universe; therefore all things must be moving toward Him. How is it the jīva apparently turns from Kṛṣṇa to participate in the world of birth and death?

Prabhupāda: That is māyā. That is māyā, illusion. He should not have deviated, but out of the influence of māyā he is doing that and he is suffering. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. "You stop this plan-making. You simply surrender unto Me and do what I say, then you are happy." That is practical.

Hayagrīva: Here is a famous quotation from Plato. He says, "God put intelligence in the soul and the soul in the body that He," that is God, "might be the creator of a work which was by nature best."

Prabhupāda: We say that the living entity is part and parcel of God, mamaivāṁśa. Under the circumstances he has got almost all the qualities of God, but partially, because God is great and we are minute. So even though we have got all the qualities of God-not all, certain percentage, say seventy-eight percent-in minute quantity. Just like God has creative power, we have got also creative power. We have created the 747 flying machine. All right, get credit for that, but you cannot create a flying ball like sun floating in the sky. That is difference between God and me. You can take credit that you are keeping suspension in the air a big machine, 747, but it is not in your power that you can float millions and millions of planets floating in the air. That is not possible. Therefore God is great; I am small. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as soon as he says, "I am as good or as great as God," then He is a rascal. That is Māyāvādī. He is in māyā. Just like one man in India, he is showing some jugglery. He makes like this and creates some gold, a little gold, but foolish people are enamored. "Ah, he is God." But we are not enamored, but we know that he may create a small piece of gold, but God has created many millions of gold mines. So if creation of gold is the standard of becoming God, then why shall we accept this tiny man as God, who has created the mines, not only one mine, in this planet there are hundreds and thousands of gold mines and there are so many planets. There are, there is, I was reading this, Trikūṭa, Trikūṭa mountain, eight thousand miles high, eight thousand miles wide and long, and it has got three big, big peaks. One is of iron, one is of silver, and one is of gold. So the mountain, eight thousand miles high, peak gold, silver. So who can manufacture such gold? You cannot manufacture gold. That is not possible. So even you may so-called manufacture that, can you manufacture the peak of gold?

Hayagrīva: No. (laughs) It tarnishes.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: It tarnishes in time. It doesn't remain.

Prabhupāda: One king, by the grace of Lord Śiva, he got information in the Himalaya some spot of gold, so he hugely manufactured gold utensils. And the yajña, everything is gold, and the brāhmaṇas are given gold plates and gold. And they, in those days brāhmaṇas are not greedy, so they thought, "Who carries this weight? Throw it. It is bothersome." The king thought that "I am giving a very valuable, contributing charity," but they thought that "What is this utensils? I have to carry this. Throw it." So they are stacked up. So when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira finished his whole treasury on account of the war and he wanted to perform yajña, he asked Arjuna, "You bring some money somewhere." So Arjuna was little perplexed. Kṛṣṇa gave him this information: "You go there. There is stack of gold utensils you can bring." So when he brought it, his name was Dhanañjaya, "conquering over wealth." There are so many gold peaks, gold mines. Who cares for that? Those who are materialistic person, they will give some man, and those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will see, "What I have to do with all gold? I require some money for making propagation. Otherwise what is the use of stacking gold? There is no use."

Hayagrīva: Plato believes that at death there is an end of the sensory life of the individual-his thoughts, his perceptions and experiences-and the individual then returns to the ideal world from which he came.

Prabhupāda: That means he believes in eternity. This loss of senses, that is we also accept that there are three stages: jāgrati, awakening, and sleeping and deep sleeping. So deep sleeping means unconsciousness. So when a man dies from awakening state, he enters into the dreaming state and then enters into the deep sleeping state. So transmigration of the soul means he gives up this gross body, and the subtle body, mind, intelligence carries him to the another body, and in another body, unless the body is prepared properly, he lives in deep sleep. And when the body is prepared at seven months for human being, then he comes to consciousness. He feels, "Oh, why I am put into this packed-up status." If he is pious he feels very uncomfortable. He prays to God-these things are described-that "Kindly excuse me from this awkward position. Now this time I shall become a devotee." This is position. The soul is immortal, but still he enters into different stages of life. Then when he comes out, the same different stages of body continues. In childhood he is something different from his boyhood; boyhood something different from youthhood; and he is the same, but he is passing through different… That is called evolution. So when he comes to the perfect stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then his life is successful. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, in the fructified stage, in the blooming stage, and when it is fully bloomed it looks very nice, beautiful. Similarly, when by gradual development when you come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then our whole beauty is revealed.

Hayagrīva: He also stressed the process of remembering. It's called the, his, Plato's doctrine of recollection. And he says you can ask a boy, who may be ignorant of a subject, you can elicit answers from him, and this answers, he may give you the right answers, and this would suggest that he acquired this knowledge in a previous existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we find a student in school is very intelligent and less intelligent. Otherwise both of them of the same age, why one is more intelligent, he grasps the matter very quickly, and why the other is not so intelligent? This is everything that putra-janma dṛḍhaṁ vidyā putra-janma dṛḍhaṁ dhanam. (indistinct) The two things especially, knowledge, education and money, they are earned in the previous birth, not that all of a sudden one has become rich, all of a sudden one has become very learned man. No. It is continuous. So if one man is extraordinarily learned, it is to be understood that it is the result of his previous culture. Similarly, if anyone is extraordinarily rich, it is to be understood it is due to his past pious activities. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [SB 1.8.26], these four things are achieved on account of previous pious activities: good birth, good opulence, aiśvarya, and good education, and good beauty. These are the results of pious, good activities. So you can see practically in your country between the black and white. The white men are more advanced in everything, and the black man, although he has got the same facilities, they are in inferior position. Why? It is putra-janma dṛḍham. That is the proof of past life. But so far we are concerned, we are not concerned about one black man or white man. Both of them are in the clutches of māyā. We want to educate all of them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they have got equal opportunity, it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ [SB 2.4.18]. Never mind what is his body, if he is willing to become trained to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the platform of the soul, that we can do.

Hayagrīva: Now for Plato, perfect happiness is in attempting to become godlike.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Perfect happiness is in attempting to become godlike.

Prabhupāda: Godlike?

Hayagrīva: Godlike, godly.

Prabhupāda: Godly, yes.

Hayagrīva: Insofar as man resembles God, he is ethical. Evil forces within man combat his efforts to attain this ultimate goal. Plato is not a determinist. He emphasized freedom of the will and insisted that evil acts are due to man's failure to live up to his responsibility. They do not come from God, who is all-good.

Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. This ideal example: that the university comes from the government and the prison house also comes from the government, but the prison house is meant for the criminal and the university is meant for the highly learned scholar. The government spends money in both the departments to maintain it; therefore, so far government's recognition is concerned, it has to be maintained. But it is we, we make our selection whether go to the prison house or go to the university. That is, that little independence is there in every human being. We have to make our choice.

Hayagrīva: He says that perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …and Kṛṣṇa says something like that, um…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that Kṛṣṇa says…

Hayagrīva: "Imperfections…, there will always be imperfections like smoke and fire," something like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that, uh, He says that everything has got some defect, material. Even the fire, so powerful, so fire has also some defect: the smoke. So apart from that imperfection, if we execute our prescribed duties exactly in the way as it is enjoined in the śāstra, that even there is some defect, still we can get perfection. Just like Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving chance, everyone, to become perfect by his own work. It doesn't matter brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or what means according to Vedic civilization, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So brāhmaṇa is giving knowledge, kṣatriya is giving protection, vaiśya is giving food, and śūdra is general help to everyone. So if the whole thing is done under the direction of the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya executes the orders of the brāhmaṇa, and the vaiśyas supply food-because food is required, that is materially required-then everything is perfect. [break] (aside with Hari-śauri regarding tape recorder)

Hayagrīva: All right, this is… Later in The Republic, in the allegory of the cave, we mentioned before, Socrates says, "In the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with great difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. Once it is perceived, the conclusion must follow that for all things, this is the cause of whatever is right and good. In the visible world it gives birth to light and to the Lord of light while it is itself sovereign in the intelligible world and the parent of the intelligible world and the parent of intelligence and truth. Without having had a vision of this Form," he uses capital "F," Form, "no one can act with wisdom either in his own life or in matters of state." And here, he, Socrates mentions form but he doesn't mention personality. He mentions the form of goodness, but through intellection, or jñāna, how is it possible to perceive the form of God or the form of goodness? What could he possibly mean by…

Prabhupāda: That is from Vedic same. As soon as there is instruction there is form. As Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction, He is always saying "I," "you," like that, it is personal. He says Arjuna, "You," and He says Himself, "I." So Arjuna is also form and Kṛṣṇa is also form, and Kṛṣṇa also says that "Both you, Me, and all these living entities, kings and soldiers who are assembled here, they existed in the past, they are existing now, and they will continue to exist." So you can understand that "In the present I am in form, so I existed in the past in form and I shall continue to exist in the future as form. So where is formless?" From my present position I can understand my past and future. So Kṛṣṇa says that we existed in the past. So we existing now, now I mean to say, continuing. He never said that "In the past we were formless; now we have got form." This is not stated there. Rather, He condemns, that avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]: "In the past I was formless, impersonal, and now I am a person," that is Māyāvādī thought, that when God takes the form, He takes the form of māyā. So they have been condemned as abuddhayaḥ, no intelligence. Avyaktaṁ vyaktiṁ āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. Those who have less intelligence, they think like that, that "God was formerly formless, now He is talking in form, that means He has accepted the body of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda philosophy.

Hayagrīva: Concerning education, he says, "We must conclude that education is not what it is said to be by some who profess to put knowledge into a soul which does not possess it, as if they can put sight into blind eyes. On the contrary, our own account signifies that the soul of every man does possess the power of learning the truth and the organ to see it with, and that just as one might have to turn the whole body around in order that the eye should see light instead of darkness, so the entire soul must be turned away from this changing world until its eye can bear to contemplate reality and that supreme splendor which we have called good. Hence there may well be an art whose aim would be to effect this very thing, the conversion of the soul, in the readiest way, not to put the power of sight into the soul's eye, which already has it, but to insure that instead of looking in the wrong direction, it is turned the way it ought to be.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Hayagrīva: That.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Yes. It's that art, he says.

Prabhupāda: It is an art, that our aim of life by these sensually affected senses… At the present moment we are sensually affected. I want to eat something which is very palatable, I eat it. I do not care whether this palatable eating will mislead me or lead me to the proper way. Therefore we are making this propaganda. So your eating process is not stopped. You eat, but don't eat meat, you eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam. So if we agree to this process, then gradually we become purified by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our aim, objective, is attained. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't stop eating. No sensual activities are stopped. The eyes, in the material way, the eyes want to see very beautiful objective. We say, "Yes, you see the beautiful Kṛṣṇa. You taste Kṛṣṇa prasādam." Everything is there; simply we purify. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. If this process is accepted, then when he sees real beauty, real food, real, then he becomes satisfied. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: Well, one last point is that neither Socrates, Plato or Aristotle ever mentions service to God; rather, they always speak of contemplation of God's reality or the Supreme Splendor. It's always contemplation, meditation. Is this typical of the jñānī? Or… There's no mention of service.

Prabhupāda: No, this is the process of knowing God. They are partially helpful to know God as He is, but when he actually comes to know God, he sees that "He is the great and I am the small." So the business of the small is to serve the great. That is nature's way. We practically see in our daily life, because you are small you are going to serve a big factory. Otherwise you have no other way. So everyone is serving, but when he realizes that "I am serving. I am not the master," that is the position actually. Ask anybody in this world whether he is master or serving, the conclusion will be that he is serving. His natural position is to serve. So if one hasn't got a family to serve, he keeps a dozen of dog to serve. That is going on, and especially in the Western countries we see that at the old age, when he has no children, so he keeps a dog or two or three pets to serve. So the serving position is already there, and when the servant wants to become master, that is māyā. Because this word māyā means actually he is serving and he is thinking that he is master. That is māyā. Māyā means what is not fact. So by meditation, when he actually becomes a realized soul, he will understand that "Oh, I am servant. So why I am serving māyā? Let me serve Kṛṣṇa." That is perfection. So if his guide, spiritual master, engages him from the very beginning to serve God, then he becomes quickly perfect, because he is servant and he has to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection. He is falsely thinking that he is master. That is māyā. Here also they are simply serving. Just like President Nixon. He thought himself, "I am the master of America." But actually he is not. The master is the public. As soon as the public wanted "You come down immediately," he had to do that. So if the president of big state, he is under the false impression that although he is serving he is thinking master, then what to speak of others? Everyone is serving, but he is thinking master. So perfect knowledge is there that when he comes to the platform that "God is the supreme master, He is great, and we are servant." That is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: In his Politics, Plato changes his mind later in life. In the beginning he believed that in an ideal state the leaders should possess nothing of their own, neither property nor family. He felt that they must live together in a community where wives and children are held in common to guard against corruption, bribery and nepotism in government. He felt that the elite philosophers should mate with women of high qualities in order to produce the best children for positions of responsibility. Now, how does this view of common wives and children correspond to the Vedic version?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Vedic civilization is that, that putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. A man should accept a wife for putra, for son. Why son? Putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam: a putra should be responsible for offering piṇḍa, so that after death, even by mistake or somehow or other I am in a wrong position, by the piṇḍa I am elevated. This is idea. So marriage is for having good son, that's a fact, who will deliver me even if I am in the hell. Therefore the śraddhā ceremony in there. So even the father is in hell, by this śraddhā ceremony he will be delivered. This is the idea. So unless one has got son, nobody is going to offer him śraddhā oblation, and even one may be very benevolent, but it is not expected. But it is the duty of the son, as it is said, putra. Pu means there is a hell pundama (?). The hell's name is pundama, pun. So I mean, pu and tra, tra means one who delivers. If by chance I am put into pundama naraka trayate, one who delivers me from that hellish condition of life, he is putra, and for this kind of putra I accept a wife, not for my sex enjoyment. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, one who uses his sex for these religious activities, that "I shall get good father, a good son who can deliver me," then marriage is required. Otherwise it is useless. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi. Kṛṣṇa says, "Sex life which is not against religious principle, that is I am." And sex life which is, which has no religious principle, that is sense gratification leading one to hell. So this theory: that we should marry, we should have sex life for creating good progeny. And my Guru Mahārāja used to say-he was a sannyāsī brahmacārī-but he said that "If I could produce really Kṛṣṇa conscious children, I can use hundred times sex life. Otherwise why shall I use my sex for cat, producing cats and dog?" He has said like that. So the śāstra also says, pitā na sa syāt janani na sa syāt: the father's, mother's duty is how to rescue their children from the cycle of birth and death. That is real father and mother. Otherwise cats and dogs, they are also father and mother. That is not wanted. Vedic culture is different. Produce children for such education and such accomplishment that he can be saved from the cycle of birth and death, and the putra should be such qualified that even his father goes to the hellish condition of pundama, he will deliver him. That is the idea of becoming father and family.

Hayagrīva: He believed that the best form of government is an enlightened monarchy, enlightened monarchy.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is we say, rājarṣi, rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Rājarṣi means king, at the same time saintly.

Hayagrīva: Saintly.

Prabhupāda: That is idea. He has taken these ideas from the Vedic literature.

Hayagrīva: When this form degenerates, it becomes a tyranny.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: When it degenerates.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: The second best form is an aristocracy, and when it deteriorates it becomes an oligarchy, rule of corrupt men. And he considered democracy to be one of the worst forms of government…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my, I have said…

Hayagrīva: …for when it deteriorates, it degenerates into mob rule.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that's a fact, very good. But the best thing is monarchy, because if the monarch is rājarṣi, he is not only king… That is necessary. Kṛṣṇa wants that, that the government should be ruled; therefore we praise, offer so much respect to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Mahārāja Parīkṣit and Lord Rāmacandra, how to become an ideal king. He is Personality of Godhead. He showed how to become Rāma-rājya. So this is very good because it is not expensive. One man is maintained by the state very nicely, and nowadays these democracies' mob rule means instead of one king there are 300,000 kings in a state, and they are looting the hard-earned money by income tax, and everything is so polluted. So the condemnation of democracy is supported by us. It is mob rule. It has no value.

Hayagrīva: Socrates and Plato.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hayagrīva: They had city states that were, uh…

Prabhupāda: Mini-states.

Hayagrīva: …democracy. They were, they were so small that everyone could get together.

Prabhupāda: Pañcayat, in India it was pañcayat. So each man of the village, it is to reduce the responsibility of the state if that small cases, the pañcayat, some of the important men of the village they would sit together, and whatever they will decide, that the state will accept, court will accept. So minimize the responsibility of the court in deciding several cases. So in the India the Pañcayat system is there.

Hayagrīva: The what?

Prabhupāda: Pañca, Pañcayat means…

Hayagrīva: Pañcat?

Prabhupāda: Pañca.

Hayagrīva: Pañca.

Prabhupāda: Pañca means five, five selected men from the village sit down and decide the case. That will be accepted by the government.

Hayagrīva: Greece, Greece was not a country as such; it was composed of small towns or cities, and Athens was…

Prabhupāda: Anywhere.

Hayagrīva: …Athens was the biggest, and everyone got together and the wisest men spoke, and they voted on their decisions.

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of Parliament.

Hayagrīva: Parliament.

Prabhupāda: So in monarchy also there was council of learned men, brāhmaṇas, great saintly persons. Even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was guided like that. Lord Rāmacandra was guided. That is the system. Even monarchy was there, still he was advised by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas and saintly persons, and he would do according to their decision. And Vena Mahārāja, he was not ruling. The brāhmaṇas came, advised him, "My dear King, you are not doing nicely. You should do like this." And when he refused, then he was killed, and his son Prthu Mahārāja was give charge. So-called democracy is ludicrous, that's a fact. All fools and rascals bribing, and this way and that way they have taken post, and when they go to the post, simply squander money, that's all. Just they take bribes from big, big men, that "I will give you, repay you ten times, you give me money."

Hari-śauri: The system of continuously changing the government every four years means that…

Prabhupāda: Every four days!

Devotee: For four years that "I'll take advantage as much as possible for my personal gain, and then retire rich."

Prabhupāda: It is very, a very dangerous position, this so-called democracy. Nobody cares for it. So sometimes this emergency is required, but if it is used again for personal aggrandizement, then it is also. Actually, the perfection of government is monarchy, and the monarchy, monarch should be ideal rājarṣi. That is the Indian's, Vedic system. The Vedic system was there everywhere; therefore still there are monarchs. But they are simply maintaining the monarchy, but actually monarch has no power.

Hayagrīva: I think in the history of the West all the monarchs have been ogres except maybe with the exception of Constantine, who was a Christian monarch, and I think that was the only one.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But it was not…

Prabhupāda: Monarch, that is the idea, rājarṣi. Rāja and ṛṣi. He is in the position of rāja, but he is actually a great sage. That is required. Then everything will be perfect. Rājarṣayo viduḥ, Kṛṣṇa says. And if the monarch, the chief man in the state, he understands Bhagavad-gītā, then everything will be immediately perfect. Everything, immediate. Formerly the kings were (indistinct). Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2], it clearly stated. But the, there is no monarchy, and all loafer class they are taking charge of government. They do not know. Why they will know it? They have gone there for getting some money. "I am now in position, get that much money (indistinct)." They know, "After five years I will be nowhere, so let me accumulate some money while I am on the ministerial post." This is going on. Who cares for the good of the citizen? If we discuss these things, it will be great criticism, but this is the position. (end)

ARISTOTLE.HAY

Aristotle

Hayagrīva: …quotations on Aristotle. Aristotle believes that God expresses Himself through matter, although he also believes that God is transcendent and separate from the universe.

Prabhupāda: He believes some way and other believes some way, so which is…, which one is correct?

Hayagrīva: He does not follow Plato's dualism of the "here" and the "there." Plato made a sharp distinction between the material universe and the spiritual universe, but Aristotle believes there is no sharp distinction because God expresses Himself in matter. Since matter is simply one of God's energies, the finite reflects the infinite.

Prabhupāda: So what is the other energy? Does he know?

Hayagrīva: He doesn't concern himself with that. He says that by knowing something of the world about us, we can know something about God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So his, his…

Prabhupāda: It may be that you know something about God. Then you have to admit that you do not know everything about God. So their knowledge is imperfect. Our point is that we know everything of God from God. So that knowledge is perfect. As Kṛṣṇa said in the Seventh Chapter, that mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. "If you concentrate your mind on your attachment to Me, and if you execute yoga meditation, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then you understand Me fully and without any doubt." So instead of speculating in God, if we simply think of God, that will help us. To escape from darkness, if you speculate about the sun by some suggestion, by some concoction, this is one kind of knowledge. But if you actually come out of the darkness and see the sun, then it is complete (indistinct).

Hayagrīva: Now…

Prabhupāda: These Western philosophers, mostly they are contemplating about the sunshine in darkness. But that is not the way of understanding the sun. Best thing is to come in the sunshine, see yourself, see the sunshine, see the sun. There is (indistinct).

Hayagrīva: Here's another point. Aristotle says that it is not material objects that are trying to realize God, like as Plato says, but God realizing Himself through material objects. God does this in a variegated way and in an infinite way. So God realizes the potentiality of a rose or of a man by creating a rose, a flower, a man that is perceivable by the material senses. So the world is more real to Aristotle than it is to Plato.

Prabhupāda: If God has created the material world and material variety, so means He is in full awareness how to do things nicely. That is perfectness of God. He knows everything how to do it perfectly, naturally. Just like even a child, we get daily experience, when we offer some cake in the Deity room, the child immediately takes it and puts in the mouth. Although she is very small baby, (s)he doesn't require any education about taking the cake and what to do with it. Immediately puts in the mouth. So this natural, what is called, knowledge, that is God's knowledge. He knows everything perfectly well, and when He produces a rose flower, it is all-perfect. That is God's… God is not…, He has to get the knowledge through some source. He is already in awareness of everything. That is God. So He hasn't got to know His capacity through matter.

Hayagrīva: Now Aristotle would say that the flower is real because it has its basis in the ultimate reality, God.

Prabhupāda: That…, how God can be not in knowledge? He is full in knowledge. That is God.

Hayagrīva: Plato would say that the flower is a shadow of reality, a perverted reflection of reality. So which point of view would be…?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is… When the flower is in the material world…, material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. That's a fact. We have got experience that material things are created, but in the spiritual world things are not created; they are already there, everlasting. So it appears Aristotle has no knowledge of the spiritual world.

Hayagrīva: Aristotle defines God as pure form and pure act and purely nonmaterial. He is absolute spirit and is the unmoved mover.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is absolute spirit, there is no doubt upon it, but why He should come to know Himself through material world? That is defective.

Hayagrīva: Aristotle's God contemplates Himself. He does not have any knowledge of the world…

Prabhupāda: Who?

Hayagrīva: …as such.

Prabhupāda: Who has no knowledge?

Hayagrīva: God.

Prabhupāda: What kind of God is that?

Hayagrīva: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is Aristotle's ignorance, that he does not know what is God and he is speaking about God. That is his ignorance.

Hayagrīva: Nor, he says, nor can God return the love that He receives. He doesn't love or care for mankind.

Prabhupāda: So He is in perfect knowledge, then why He should not reciprocate? So God reciprocates. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. As much as we offer our love to God, He, what is called, cooperates, cooperative response. When we fully surrender and fully in loving service, then we can understand God, what He is actually.

Hayagrīva: Aristotle sees the love going one way. He says that God is loved by everything in the universe and that He attracts all objects in the universe because everything is striving toward Him and longing for Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But there is no mention of God as a person, although he says He's pure form. Is this an imagined form like the Māyāvādīs may imagine a form?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got the tilt of Māyāvāda. That is his imperfect knowledge of God. Because he does not receive knowledge from God, he speculates; therefore his knowledge is imperfect.

Hayagrīva: Aristotle's belief in the soul changed. He has three conceptions of the soul. One is that the soul is a separate substance, another is that the body is the instrument of the soul, and the third is the soul is the form of the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this can be explained. The body is just like the dress of the soul. So our dress is made according to our body. The tailor takes the measurement of the body and makes the coat accordingly. So the coat appears with the hand because we have got hand. Coat, pant appears as a leg because we have got leg. So this body is simply a, what is called, coating or shirting of the soul. Actually the soul has got form, shape, form, and therefore the cloth, which will generally have no shape, is, when it comes in contact with the soul, it becomes a shape.

Hayagrīva: Now for both Plato and Aristotle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or by religious experience, not by mystical experience…

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. You cannot… God is unlimited. You have got limited power to see or to smell or to touch. You have got all limited, and God is unlimited. So you cannot understand God by your limited power of sensual activities. Therefore God is revelation. We say that ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136]. You cannot understand by speculating your senses. That is not possible. When you engage yourself in His service, then He reveals. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. God says that "I am not exposed to everyone. I am covered by the yoga-māyā." That is fact. So unless God reveals Himself… So God not only reveals, He appears, and great authorities, they are searching. Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared, and great authorities like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and then the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu-big, big stalwart scholars and transcendentalists-they accepted Kṛṣṇa. All the śāstras accept Kṛṣṇa. Long, long years, five thousand years, when there was no philosophy in the Western world, God revealed Himself, face to face. Arjuna saw Him and he accepted Him. And similarly other great persons accepted Him. So God is not to be speculated, but by one's service, when He is pleased, He reveals Himself.

Hayagrīva: There is a great deal of emphasis in Aristotle on reason. He says happiness depends on man's acting in a rational way. The rational way is the virtuous way. The virtuous way is the way of intellectual insight. There is a suggestion of sense control but no bhakti. So is it possible to obtain happiness simply by controlling the senses by the mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the process of becoming a human being. The lower beings, animals, they do not know this process. Just like they are busy only for sense gratification-eating, sleeping, mating and defense, their only business. But a human being can be engaged by proper guidance in contemplation. Just like Aristotle is contemplating or Plato is con…, this is human being's business. But such contemplation should be guided by authorities. Otherwise one can contemplate with his limited senses for many, many millions of years, it will be impossible to understand what is God.

Hayagrīva: But for happiness, or ānanda, isn't bhakti essential, love, or ānanda?

Prabhupāda: Ānanda means… God is full ānanda, sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, sat; He is spiritual; and He is ānanda, bliss. So unless one comes in contact with God, there is no question of ānanda. (Sanskrit). In the Vedic literatures we understand that God is reservoir of all pleasure, unlimited. So when you come in contact with God, then you will taste what is pleasure. So material pleasure is only perverted reflection of the real pleasure. Real pleasure is possible when we come in contact with God.

Hayagrīva: In his Ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes, "Moral excellence is concerned with pleasure and pain. It is pleasure that makes us do base or ignoble action, and pain that prevents us from doing noble actions. For that reason," as Plato says, "men must be brought up from childhood to feel pleasure and pain at the proper things, for this is correct education." So how does this correspond to the Vedic view of education?

Prabhupāda: Vedic view of education is, actually there is no pleasure in this material world, because we may arrange for all pleasure artificially in the material world, but all of sudden one has to die. So where is the pleasure? If you make arrangement of all pleasure and all of a sudden death comes upon you, then where is pleasure? So first of all they must, if they are intelligent, they must make arrangement that they will be able to enjoy the pleasures they have created. Otherwise, where is pleasure? It is disappointment. That is going on. They are trying to become pleased by inventing so many things, but because they are controlled by some superior element, so at any moment they will be kicked out of the pleasure platform. Then where is pleasure? Therefore the conclusion should be: there is no pleasure in this material world. If one is searching after pleasure in the material world, then it is the same thing as the animal is searching water in the desert. There is no water in the desert; it is simply illusion, and he is preparing for death. Because he is thirsty, he is searching after water, and in the wrong way he is searching water. The ultimate result will be he will die of thirst.

Hayagrīva: One last statement from Aristotle. He states, in his Politics, he says, "The beauty of the body is seen, whereas the beauty of the soul is not seen." Is this true?

Prabhupāda: Beauty of the soul is real beauty, and beauty of the body is superficial. Not every body is beautiful. There are so many bodies very ugly, and there are so many bodies very beautiful. So the material sense, this ugliness and beautifulness, they are all artificial. But the beauty of the soul is real; that is not artificial. So unless we see the beauty of the Supersoul, Kṛṣṇa, we have no idea what is actually beauty. Therefore devotees, they want to see the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, not any artificial beauty of this material world.

Hayagrīva: There's no correspondence there. That is to say, a beautiful body does not necessarily house a beautiful soul. There's no correspondence.

Prabhupāda: No, there is correspondence, because we say this material world is perverted reflection. So originally the soul is beauty, but here the beauty is covered. But we can simply have a glimpse of the real beauty from the material covering, but we have to wait to see the beauty of the soul. That is real point.

Hayagrīva: I read that Socrates was a very ugly man but that he had a very beautiful soul, and people were attracted to his soul. That was the, supposedly…

Prabhupāda: Yes. The example can be given that the quail, it is called kokil, it is very black, just like crow. But when you vibrates the voice, it is so beautiful that people are attracted. So the beauty of the body is secondary. The beauty of the soul is primary. So just like a mūḍha, a illiterate man, nicely dressed-he is beautiful so long he does not speak. And as soon as he speaks, we can understand what is his position. So dhavaca so vate mūḍha yavad kiñcid na vasa (?). A ugly, illiterate rascal, fool, is beautiful so long he does not speak, and as soon as he speaks we can understand what is his position. So this external beauty is no beauty. If an ugly man, if he speaks very nicely, he will attract so many people, and if a beautiful man, if he speaks nonsense, nobody cares for him. So real attraction is different and artificial is different.

Hayagrīva: I think that concludes Aristotle. (end)

PLOTINUS.HAY

Plotinus

Hayagrīva: This is Plotinus. Plotinus lived from 204-269 A.D. He was not Christian. He took… He's what's called a neo-Platonist, a new Platonist. Much of his philosophy comes from Plato. But he believed in the theory of emanation, that the soul emanates from the intelligence, what Aristotle called the nous, or the intelligence, and the intelligence emanates from the One, what he calls the One, who is omnipresent, transcendental, the cause of all multiplicities, the Lord of all. So there's a hierarchy in Plotinus of the One, the intelligence, and the individual souls.

Prabhupāda: The One is Vedic conception, ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti, Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth, advaya-jñāna. So this is our philosophy, that these living entities, soul, they are of the same quality as the one Supreme, but they are fragmental parts, emanation from Him. He has got the same intelligence, same mind, but limited jurisdiction. God is… That One is omnipresent, but we are not omnipresent, but we are present. Omniscient; but we are not omniscient, but we are (sic:) sentient, not that dull matter. In this way, that One has got all spiritual qualities in fullness; we have got spiritual qualities in minute quantity. That is our constitutional position. But we are like sparks, and the Supreme One is like big fire. When we leave the association of the big fire, as sparks we become extinguished, means our illumination stops. That is called māyā, māyā andhakāra, darkness. That we can revive also, again be put with the One and revive our illuminating power, spiritual power, and live with the Supreme One peacefully, eternal life of bliss.

Hayagrīva: Plotinus is an impersonalist. He believed that attributing attributes to God limit God.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: He believes that attributing qualities to God necessarily limit God, so he's an impersonalist.

Prabhupāda: Limit?

Hayagrīva: Limit. Any attribute or quality is by necessary limiting. This is a typical impersonalist stand.

Prabhupāda: If he is…

Hayagrīva: That the One, the One is transcendental, but there's no multiplicity in Him. That means im…, impersonal. Although He is the cause of all multiplicities, He is the cause of all living entities, He Himself…

Prabhupāda: Yes, He is the cause of all living entities. That is Vedic conception. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief amongst the eternals, chief amongst the sentients, but unless He has got unlimited transcendental qualities, how He can be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful? That is not perfection. A perfect conception of the Supreme One: He is unlimited, we are limited. That is sense. How the Supreme One, who is the cause of everything, He can be limited? I do not know what do they mean by "limit." He cannot be limited by anything. Even the impersonal Brahman, that Brahman, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: everything is Brahman, unlimited. Why He should be limited? Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: [Bg. 9.4] everything is emanation from Him and resting in Him. That is His impersonal conception. Everywhere He is there. And personal is localized, and…, but from the person, the impersonal effulgence come out. That we understand from the Bhagavad-gītā: brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. As the big sunshine comes from the localized sun globe-the sun globe is situated in one place, but this, the rays of the sun is distributed all over the universe-similarly, impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is that by His transcendental rays, prabhā, yasya prabhā prabhavata [Bs. 5.40], illumination. Just like the fire has got heat and light. It expands. So the impersonal feature of the Lord expands unlimitedly, and the Personality, it appears that He is limited, but He is unlimited by His energy. That is the perfect conception. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. By His impersonal feature He is all-pervading. By His localized aspect He is living everywhere, omnipresent, within the heart of all living entities, within the atom even. And by His personal feature He is worshiped by the devotee. Wherever the devotee is there, He is present personally. Tatra dṛṣṭami dhanataḥ yatra nayanti mad-bhaktaḥ (?). That is His omnipresent, although He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana. So nobody can calculate how many miles away that planet is, still, when a devotee like Prahlāda is in danger, He is immediately present there. That is the meaning of omnipresence. Not that because He is millions and trillions of miles away He cannot give protection to His devotee millions and trillions of miles away from His abode. That is the meaning of omnipresent.

Hayagrīva: Yes. He also believed that God is present in all objects yet remains distinct and transcendental to all created things.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ: [Bg. 9.4] "Everything is resting in Me, but I am not present there."

Hayagrīva: As for the individual souls, some are unembodied and some are embodied. He believes that some are celestial-they are heavenly-and these souls do not suffer, and some, the ones on earth, suffer. In either case, they are all individuals.

Prabhupāda: That's right. There are souls, innumerable souls. Anantāya kalpate. Nobody can count how many souls are there. So all the souls are as described above. They have got the same qualities of the One, in minute quantity, but some of them are fallen. Just like in the fire there are so many sparks, but one or two may fall down from the fire. Others remains in the fire. Those who are not falling down, they are called nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. They are never conditioned. And those who have fallen within this material world for sense gratification, they are baddha. They are called nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. And eternally means that nobody can estimate how long one conditioned soul within this material world is existing here, because the creation is going on perpetually-sometimes manifest, sometimes nonmanifest. But the conditioned soul without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is continuing to exist in this material world. Before the creation he was there in dormant condition. Again with the manifestation he comes out. This is going on. They are conditioned. And for their deliverance that One, Supreme Personality, comes, descends, sends His incarnation, sends His devotee to call him back to home, back to Godhead. That is also going on. Those who are fortunate, they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead, and those who are unfortunate do not take advantage of the instruction personally given by God, and later on His devotees are engaged to preach, they do not take care; they remain conditioned within this material world. And material world is created and annihilated, and he suffers this annihilation while in this body, while in this material world. But the intelligent living entity, if he is fortunate, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and again he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: He believed that the soul is eternal and incorporeal in men, animals, and even in plants, and in this he differed from other philosophers of the time.

Prabhupāda: What… In which way differs? Because he accepts…

Hayagrīva: Accepted in…, the soul living in animals and also in plants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fact. He is right. That is Vedic conclusion. Sarva-yoniṣu, all different forms of life, there is soul, part and parcel of God. How some foolish person can think of animal has no soul? What is the reason? There is no very strong argument. The animals may be less intelligent. A child may be less intelligent than the father; that does not mean there is no soul. This gross and doggish mentality, animal mentality, is killing the human civilization. Now they have degraded so much that they think that the embryo has no soul. In this way man is being put into darker and darkest region of ignorance. Everyone has soul. That is real. We get it from Kṛṣṇa: sarva-yoniṣu. In different forms of life the soul is there, undoubtedly. That is real conception of soul. Evolution means he is evolving from one lower grade of body to another, higher grade of body, and in this way by evolution he comes to the human form of life. And in this human form of life he can understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā, that if he likes, he can surrender to the Supreme Lord and go back to home, back to Godhead, and if he does not, then he remains in this material world, undergoing the tribulations of the repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. Corporal body.

Hayagrīva: Plotinus saw the individual souls returning to God or the One through three stages. The first stage is that of asceticism, detaching oneself from the material world. The second stage, one detaches oneself from the process of reasoning itself. That would be mental speculation. And in the third stage the intellect transcends itself into the realm of the unknown, the realm of the One, and he speaks of this as an ecstasy, an involvement, or a transcendence of the ego. So these are the three stages of God realization that he sets down.

Prabhupāda: That means, what he called three stages, karmī, jñānī, yogi. That karmīs, they are trying to improve their condition by this material science and material advancement of education, and some of them are trying to go the heavenly planets by pious activities. These are karmīs. And higher than the karmīs are the jñānīs. They are speculating on the Absolute Truth by their education and coming to the conclusion that God is impersonal; when we merge into that impersonal feature, that is our liberation. And the yogis, they are trying to get some mystic power by practicing mystic yoga system-wonderful power, aṣṭa-siddhi, eight kinds of perfection: to become lighter than the lightest, to become smaller than the smallest, to become bigger than the biggest. Whatever they like, they can get. They can subdue anyone, bring under his control with that yogic (indistinct). But real yoga means to see the Supreme within the core of the heart. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. In this way there are different processes. They are called karma, jñāna and yoga. But they require endeavor to elevate, strenuous endeavor, all these practices. But the, the supreme process is simply to surrender unto the Supreme One, and He gives out intelligence how to be free from this material entanglement, and that is called bhakti-yoga. It is very pleasing to execute, and without any, much endeavor. Simply being fully surrendered to the Supreme Lord, he immediately becomes purified from all material contamination, and little practice of bhakti-yoga makes him completely fit for going back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Concerning evil, Plotinus feels that matter is evil in the sense that it imprisons the soul, but the visible cosmos…

Prabhupāda: This is our conception. This Plotinus is all, all our, practically ninety percent our conception. This is the…

Hayagrīva: But the visible cosmos is beautiful, and the evil does not arise from the creator.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material world-sometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going on-sometimes elevated, sometimes degraded-and in this way they will…, individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition. When he comes to understand that "This kind of degradation and elevation going on perpetually, this is my suffering," then at that time he becomes fortunate. Then he seeks after the Supreme One, Kṛṣṇa, and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa he gets bona fide spiritual master. So by the mercy of both the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, he gets the chance of being engaged in devotional service, and little effort and sincerity makes him perfect, and he goes back to home back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Although most of his philosophy is impersonal-his conception of God is mainly impersonal-he writes, "Let us flee then to the beloved fatherland. Here is sound council. But what is this flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the father." So he does some…, have some conception, it seems, of God as father.

Prabhupāda: He, he is confused because he is also speculating. So these things will remain confused, whether the Absolute Truth is person, imperson. Generally, without spiritual advancement nobody can understand about the Absolute Truth, and so he, that doubt continues. But when there is question of love between the Absolute and the relative, there must be the personal conception, and actually He is person, Kṛṣṇa. So by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, when he gets in touch with the devotee, his impersonal conception of the Absolute is removed, and then he worships the personal aspect of the Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa, and devotee. Then his life is successful.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the fall of the soul, Plotinus believes that the human soul never entirely leaves the spiritual realm.

Prabhupāda: Because he is constitutionally spiritual being, he is not any product of this material world. He is part and parcel of the Supreme One. But he is embodied by the material elements, and the material elements requires change. It becomes old. Just like our shoes, our dress, it becomes old. I can have one shirt and coat, but as soon as I change the body, the shirt and coat is no more fitting the body, so I have to change. So material life means to change. It is called jagat. Jagat means changing. But we are eternal, the same spirit soul. That this material life is not very happy, because it will change. Even if we are in the very comfortable condition of life or in miserable condition of life, it will change to better or lower grade of life. That is going on. So in order to save ourselves from the repetition of changing body, if we want to remain in our original, eternal, spiritual form, we must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then we are relieved from this rotten business of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.

Hayagrīva: He says, "If the souls remain in the intelligible or spiritual realm with the Soul, or Supersoul, they are beyond harm and share in the soul's governance. They are like kings who live with the high King and govern with Him and like Him do not come down from the palace. But if they wish to be independent, if they are tired, you may say, of living with someone else…"

Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, excuse me. The sannyāsī…

Hayagrīva: So when the individual soul decides to withdraw, he becomes fragmented, isolated and weak, when he decides to withdraw from the, what he calls the palace of the King.

Prabhupāda: Withdraw, withdraw from the material world?

Hayagrīva: When he decides to withdraw from the spiritual realm, from the governance of the high King.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual wrong?

Hayagrīva: Spiritual realm, the spiritual kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Kingdom. Yes. That is his falldown. When he decides to give up the spiritual life, he falls down in the material life, and that is the beginning of his material tribulations. And so long he will maintain a tinge of material happiness, the nature's life, that he has to accept, a type of material body, and there are varieties. So in all condition the spirit soul remains the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but according to the different body he gets different circumstances. A dog is thinking, on account of the dog's body, that he is a dog. A man is thinking that he is a man on account of the human body. The same thing-an American is thinking, because the body has been gotten from America, he is thinking "American." That similarly an Indian, a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, all these designations, due to the body. So when he understands that "I am not this body," this is spiritual education. That "I am different, I am part and parcel of God," then he becomes liberated, impersonally. And when he makes further advancement, and he comes to the platform of understanding the Supreme Truth as the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa, and he engages himself in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is his actual life. Kṛṣṇa, in the spiritual world, in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planets, so they can be promoted to any one of them-in the Vaikuṇṭha planets or Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. Then he is happy as associate of Kṛṣṇa. He can enjoy life eternally.

Hayagrīva: Plotinus conceives of the soul as having basically two parts: a lower part, directed toward the body, and a higher part, directed toward the spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, he is prone to fall down because he is very minute quantity, he is small, so there is tendency of falldown. The same example: the small spark of the fire, because it is very small, sometimes it falls down from the fire. So we become, being very small, minute particle of God, we become entangled by this material, external energy. Just like the example: a less intelligent person, in ignorance, commits criminal activities and he goes to jail. He is not supposed to go to the jail, but on account of his little intelligence or ignorance, he commits something which is criminal. This criminality is done by less intelligent class of men. Similarly, persons who are coming into this material world, they are less intelligent. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare. They think that they will be able to enjoy life independently, without Kṛṣṇa. This is less intelligence. Just like a very rich man's son, if he thinks that "If I live independently, without being dependent on father," that is his foolishness. How he can become happy independently, living aside from the father? The supreme father is all-opulent, full of everything, and I am minute only. So if I live under the care of the father, naturally I will live very comfortably, like rich man's son. But if I prefer that I shall live independently, that is my foolishness. So only the fools and rascals they try to remain independent of Kṛṣṇa, and they suffer. That is the consequence. And those who are intelligent, even in the, this material life, by association of devotee and spiritual opportunities, when he comes to this understanding, that "I am son of Kṛṣṇa. He claims, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4], 'I am the father,' so I am the son of Kṛṣṇa, and why I am rotting in this way? Let me go back to my father," that is back to home, back to Godhead-that is intelligence. But so long a living entity remains fools and rascal he suffers in this material world. And as soon as he is intelligent enough… That is described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sevā (indistinct): anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is the first-class intelligent man. Without being first-class intelligent man, nobody can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this training, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, means those who are fortunate, they have come to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This movement is training them how to know perfectly well that he is…, he will be or he is always very, very happy in Kṛṣṇa, not without Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When practically we see anyone who has given up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are not happy. I don't find anyone. That's fact. They are not happy. They are rotting in degradation. That is their misfortune, less intelligent.

Hayagrīva: He believes that the cosmic order awards and punishes everyone according to merit, according to one's merit. So this is a form of belief in karma also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are discussing Ajāmila's, this Ajāmila is going to be punished. The Yamarāja is there, the officer is there. He has sent his men to arrest. So just like it is the father's duty if the son goes astray, in wrong way, the father is always affectionate. He tries to bring him back again home by, either by punishing or some way or some means. That is father's duty. So this is going on. Those who are in this material world, they are simply suffering on account of foolishness. So they are punished. This punishment means to correct him, to correct him to the proper position, and this is going on. So without being corrected, if one is intelligent enough, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa and revives his old constitutional position, and that is the platform of spiritual life of bliss and knowledge.

Hayagrīva: He uses this following metaphor. He says, "We are like a chorus grouped about a conductor who allow their attention to be distracted by the audience. If, however, they"-that is we, the individual souls-"were to turn toward their conductor, they would sing as they should and would really be with him. We are always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that all discord passes. We dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the intelligence, the root of being, the cause of the good, the root of the soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mass."

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is good sense, that God is individual and the soul is individual. As he has given the metaphor or analogy that the con…, parties of a concert party…

Devotee: Conductor and a chorus.

Prabhupāda: …they are singing in the tune, sometimes attention diverted by the audience, it becomes out of the tune. Similarly we, when we divert our attention to the illusory energy, then we fall down, and although we remain the same part and parcel of the Lord, but the influence of the material energy covers us, and we identify with the covering elements, and life after life bodies changing, and we are identify with the covering, and this is our miserable condition of material existence. And therefore first education is that "I am not this covering." That is spiritual education. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā instruction, that "You are not this body. Arjuna, you are not this body. Why you are taking this bodily concepts of life, your relatives, your family, so seriously? It is all foolishness. It is accidental. You are born in this family, and you have got so-called relatives. You are actually spirit. So now you are identifying with this bodily concept of life, you are member of the Kuru family. Then as soon as this change of body takes place, you will again enter into the dog's family or cat's family or demigod's family. Again you identify, 'I am dog,' 'I am cat,' 'I am demigod.' " So this is the, our ignorance. We have to stop this mentality of bodily concept of life, identify ourself as a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, and act according to His direction. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Kṛṣṇa says, if we act, then gradually, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], we become immediately free from all upādhi, designation, and gradually develop our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to spread this knowledge all over the world.

Hayagrīva: Plotinus accounts for the fall of the soul in this way. He says, "How is it that souls forget the divinity that begot them? This evil that has befallen them has its source in self-will, in being born, in becoming different and desiring to be independent."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already explained, that…

Hayagrīva: "Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. More and more degraded. That I have already explained. He begins his life as Lord Brahmā and goes down as the worm in the stool. That is his degradation. And again, by nature's way, by evolution, he comes to the human form of life. That is a chance to understand that how he has fallen. And if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then from this life he goes again back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If he fully becomes trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness… And everyone has to give up this body, so a devotee will give up this body, but he is not going to accept any more material body. Immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mām eti: "He comes to Me." That is the advantage. They sometimes, foolish persons, say that "You are also going to die." Yes, you are going to die, I am also going to die, it's a fact, but a devotee's death means giving up this body and remain in his original, spiritual body. Sometimes it is said, jīvo vā maro vā. A devotee, either he is living or he is dead, his business is the same. And those on the lowest platform of material life, just like the butcher, that he is advised, mā jīva mā maro, "Don't live; don't die." Because he is living very abominable life, daily cutting the throats of so many animals. Is that very nice life? So it is abominable, and as soon as he dies, he is going to suffer. So his position is, "Either you live or you die, his position is very, er, horrible." And a devotee, either he lives or dies, his business is the same-to serve Kṛṣṇa. So jīvo vā maro vā. He is not different from Kṛṣṇa, so living or dead, it hasn't even no meaning for him. Therefore he is called liberated, jīvan-muktaḥ. Jīvan-muktaḥ means although he is in body, in this body, material body, he is liberated. Jīvan mukta sa ucyate. Īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā vacaḥ. That is Rūpa Goswami's definition. A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, karmaṇā, by action, by mind, karmaṇā manasā, by words, he is not to be considered that possessing any more a material body. Jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He is already liberated, on the spiritual platform, although apparently he moves like material body. Jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. And in Bhagavad-gītā also it is confirmed, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate, sa guṇān samatītyā: he is not under the condition of the modes of material nature. He is already in the Brahman platform, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice. Anyone who takes it seriously, he becomes immediately liberated, because liberation means to be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This is liberation. We are engaged in māyā's service. That is our bondage. But service we have to render. We are servant-either māyā's servant or Kṛṣṇa's servant. Servant is our constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109], Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Our real identity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So even if he is…, are in this material body, if you are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is liberation. Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. When we give up our otherwise life… "Otherwise life" means to be engaged in māyā's service-as the head of the family, head of the community, head or member of this and… We have designated in so many ways. So that is our conditional life. And the same service, when we render to Kṛṣṇa cent percent, we are liberated. Sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. That is mukti. Mukti, they, by impersonalism, account of poor fund of knowledge, they think mukti means no more activity. Why no more activity? Because the soul is active, and the active soul is within the body; therefore we find these bodily activities. The body itself is not active; the soul is active. So when he gives up this bodily concept of life, how his activities will be stopped? But this poor fund of knowledge, Māyāvāda, they cannot understand. The active principle is the soul. So, so long the active principle is within the body, the body is active, and the active principle gone, the body is lump of matter. So even one is liberated from this lump of matter, he must remain active. That is explained in the Bhakti-śāstra, that when he is no more in bodily concept of life, then he remains active, but activity hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When his senses are completely engaged in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa-Hṛṣīkeśa is another name of Kṛṣṇa-that is called bhakti. Bhakti means the activities of liberated life. One may understand or not understand; if he is actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, under the direction of spiritual master, he is liberated. But if he voluntarily accepts again māyā's service, then he is become conditioned. This is the secret. Is that…?

Hayagrīva: That's the conclusion of Plotinus.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (end)

ORIGEN.HAY

Origen

Hayagrīva: This is Origen, who lived from 185-254 A.D., and he studied at Alexandria, Egypt, during the same time as Plotinus. In fact he knew Plotinus, but Origen was a Christian and is considered the founder of Christian philosophy. He believed that ultimate reality, which is spiritual, consists of the Supreme Infinite Person, God, as well as individual personalities. Ultimate reality is the interrelationships of persons with each other and with the Infinite Person, God. So he differed from Plotinus in the belief that God has personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is personal. He is also believing personality. "Father," he says, Plotinus, but his ideas are not very clear. Did he not, Plotinus, say "the fatherland"?

Hayagrīva: He mentioned the father, but that…

Prabhupāda: The father is person. Anyway, we shall discuss this tomorrow.

Hayagrīva: The…

Prabhupāda: What is this philosopher?

Hayagrīva: Origen.

Prabhupāda: Origen. All right. We shall discuss tomorrow.

Hayagrīva: You want to discuss tomorrow? [break] I'm just touching the main points in these, but since we're not interested in comparative theology, I'm just touching the main philosophical differences in these early Christian theologian philosophers. Origen believed that the ultimate reality, which is spiritual, consists of the Supreme Infinite Person, God, as well as individual personalities. Ultimate reality is the interrelationships of persons with each other and with the Infinite Person, God. So here he differs from the Greeks, who were basically impersonal.

Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is almost the same, that the individual souls, or living entities, innumerable, and each one of them has an intimate relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the material condition of life the living entity has forgotten his relationship, and when, by the process of devotional service, he comes to his liberated position, at that time he revives his old relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Origen ascribed to the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Trinity, God the father is Supreme, God the son, who's called the logos, L-O-G-O-S, which is Greek for word, is subordinate to the father, and he brings the material world into existence.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Hayagrīva: The son. God the son brings the material world into existence. God the father is not the direct creator; it is the son who is the direct creator. The Ho… The third aspect of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, and he is in turn subordinate to the, to the son. So these Holy Spirits, they liken unto the…

Prabhupāda: Holy Spirit, he is the son?

Hayagrīva: There's the father.

Prabhupāda: Father.

Hayagrīva: There's the son, who is the direct creator of the material, like Brahmā.

Prabhupāda: The son, the son.

Hayagrīva: Like Brahmā, the perfect son. And then there's the Holy Spirit, that is all-pervasive. And all three of these aspects are divine and co-eternal. They exist…, they've always existed within the Trinity of God. They've always existed simultaneously.

Prabhupāda: So our conception is-"our" means Vedic conception-that Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead, as it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everyone." Either you call the son or the Holy Ghost, it doesn't matter, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the origin. Then, He has got expansion. That expansion is not actually His son… Or there are two kinds of expansion: His personal expansions and His expansion as part and parcel. His personal expansion is called Viṣṇu-tattva, and the part and parcel expansion is called jīva-tattva-in Sanskrit technical words, svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. The personal expansion there are also many varieties-puruṣa-avatāra, saktyāveśa-avatāra, manvantara-avatāra, many varieties. So generally, His personal expansion for creation of this material world are three also, accepted as Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Viṣṇu is personal expansion, and Brahmā is expansion of the living entity, or the vibhinnāṁśa. And another expansion, via-media between the personal expansion and expansion of jīva, the via-media expansion is called Śiva. So the material creation is done by personal expansion primarily-the whole material ingredients, and then with the ingredients the guṇa-avatāra, Brahmā, he creates particularly. And Lord Śiva, when the time is right, he annihilates. So this creation, material creation, is created, maintained for sometimes, and again dissolved or annihilated. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This is the nature of the external potency. There are others, detailed information, described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, but the jīvas, or the living entities, they are considered as the sons, and they have got two positions: one liberated position, one conditioned position. Those who are liberated, they are personally associating with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and those who are fallen in this material world, they have, almost all of them, have forgotten, and suffering within this material world in different forms of material body. But they can be delivered from this material conditioned life to liberated position by Kṛṣṇa consciousness understanding, which means that there are śāstras, Vedic knowledge, and the guru which…, who is fully cognizant of Vedic knowledge and preaches and delivers the conditioned soul on behalf of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the Vedic conception.

Hayagrīva: Origen believed that it is through divine grace and man's free will working together that the individual soul attains perfection, and perfection consists of attaining a personal relationship with the Infinite Person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called Bhakti-mārga. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is the personal feature, and Paramātmā feature may be compared with the Holy Ghost when situated in everyone's heart. And Brahman feature, everywhere. By His energy He is present everywhere. So the perfection, highest perfection of spiritual life, is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the person, personal feature of the Lord, and engages himself, the living entity engages himself in His service. Then he is situated in his original, constitutional position, and he is eternally happy and blissful.

Hayagrīva: Just as man's free will brought about his fall, man's free will can also bring about his salvation. By becoming detached from matter, man can return to God, but this detachment from matter is brought about by the assistance of the Christ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our conception also, that the fallen soul is rotating within this material world, within this universe, up and down in different forms of life, and in his developed condition of understanding he is enlightened by God as it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā, and the spiritual master gives him full enlightenment. Then what he says, the perfection?

Hayagrīva: His detachment from matter…

Prabhupāda: Yes. When he understands his pleasing, as situation with God, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate… [Bg. 9.59]. When he understands the transcendental pleasing situation of his life, he automatically gives up this material bodily attachment. That is his freedom. And when he actually, in his spiritual identity, engaged in the service of the Lord, that is his normal position. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Origen. Origen believed that all the elements that are found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the interior man. He says, "God created man not taking the dust of the earth like the second time, but He created him after the image of God," that is initially, "this being after the likeness of God was immaterial, superior to any corporeal hypothesis. There are thus two men in each one of us, as every exterior man has for homonym the interior man. So it is for all His members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man." So that for every corresponding sense that we have in the exterior body, there's a corresponding sense in the interior or the spiritual body which exists within.

Prabhupāda: The spirit soul is within this material body, but the spirit soul has no material body originally. There is a spiritual body of the spirit soul eternally existing, and the material body is simply coating of the spiritual body. This material body is considered as coating, shirt-coat. It is cut according to the bodily shape. Just ordinarily we can see the tailor makes the shirt and coat according to the shape of the body. Similarly, these material elements, earth, water, fire, etc., mixed together, becomes like a clay, and it is coated over the spiritual body. The spiritual body has no connection with the material body. So because the spiritual body has got shape, the material body also takes a shape. That is understanding. But material body has nothing to do with the spiritual body. It is simply external coating, or it is a kind of contamination for suffering of the spirit soul. As soon as he is coated with this material contamination, he identifies himself with the coating and he forgets his real, spiritual body. That is called māyā, ignorance, and this ignorance continues so long he is not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. When one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he understands that this material body is the external coating; he is different from this material body. That condition, that uncontaminated understanding, is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. The spirit soul is Brahman. He was under the illusion of bodily concept of life-that is called jīva-bhūtaḥ-and when he understands that he is not this body, he is the spirit soul within the body, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. So when one comes to this understanding of his spiritual identity, he becomes joyful, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54], he has no more any hankering or lamentation. In that position he sees all other living entities as spirit soul. He does not see the outward covering. Even in a dog he sees the spirit soul covered by the body of a dog, and similarly a learned brāhmaṇa, he also sees the spirit soul covered by the material body designated as learned brāhmaṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā this conception is summarized,

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brahmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 5.18]

So up to the animal bodily concept of life, one is unable to understand his spiritual identity. But in the civilized form of life, when the society is divided into eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama-four varṇas and four āśramas-brahman, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, four varṇas, brahmacārī, and gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsī… So a brāhmaṇa from the social status, when he becomes elevated to the position of a sannyāsī, that is the highest perfectional stage in this material world, and at that stage only he can realize his original constitutional position and he acts accordingly, and thus he becomes delivered, which is called mukti. Mukti means to understand his own constitutional position and act accordingly, and conditional life means to identify with the body and act accordingly. So in the mukti state the activities are different from the conditional state. Therefore the devotional service is the activity of the liberated stage. So anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he maintains his spiritual identity, and therefore he is called liberated even though in this conditional material body.

Hayagrīva: Origen believed that the interior man, or the spiritual body, also has spiritual senses which enable the soul to taste, see, touch and contemplate the things of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotional life.

Hayagrīva: During his lifetime Origen was a great teacher and was very much in demand. For him, preaching simply meant explaining the words of God and no more. He believed that first of all a preacher must be a man of prayer and must be in contact with God, and that he should pray for a better understanding of the scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real preacher. That is explained in the Vedic literature, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. First of all he becomes perfect by hearing. This is called śravaṇam. And when he is perfectly situated in spiritual life by hearing perfectly from the perfectly authorized person, then his next stage begins, kīrtanam. That is preaching. That śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, everyone is hearing in this material world. Everyone is hearing. Even this material educationist, he also hears from the material person, professor. That hearing is there. Then he acts when he is grown-up, passed his examination, sometimes acts as professor. The same process: if one hears from the perfect spiritualized person, he becomes perfect, then he becomes actual preacher. Preaching, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, about Viṣṇu, not for any other person within this material world. The Supreme Person, transcendental Personality of Godhead, to hear about Him and to preach about Him, that is the duty of a liberated soul.

Hayagrīva: As far as seeming contradictions and seeming absurdities in scripture are concerned, Origen considered these as stumbling blocks allowed by God to exist in order for man to go beyond the literal meaning. He says, "In some cases no useful meaning attaches to the obvious interpretation, but everything in scripture has a spiritual meaning, but not all of it has a literal meaning."

Prabhupāda: Literal… Generally, every word in the scripture there is literal meaning, but one who cannot understand properly because one does not hear from the proper person, he makes some interpretation. But there is no need of interpretation in the words of God. It may be that the words of God sometimes cannot be understood by ordinary person; therefore he requires to understand through the via-media of transparent guru. Guru is fully cognizant of the words spoken by God. One has to accept, therefore, a guru to go through the scripture properly. Generally there is no ambiguity in the words of God, but due to our lack of perfect knowledge we sometimes cannot understand and try to interpret. But this is, this interpretation is not at all feasible, because imperfect person interpreting means whatever he interprets, that is imperfect. So the proper import of the words of scripture or words of God should be understood from a person who has realized God.

Hayagrīva: For Origen there are two rebirths. One is a baptism, which is something like an initiation, and then there is a complete purification, a rebirth in the spiritual world with Christ. So baptism is compared to a shadow of the ultimate rebirth, and when the soul is reborn with Christ, it receives a spiritual body like Christ and beholds Christ face to face.

Prabhupāda: Christ behold?

Hayagrīva: The individual soul can then see Christ face to face when he attains his spiritual body.

Prabhupāda: What is the position of Christ?

Hayagrīva: What is the position of Christ?

Prabhupāda: He, does he describe anything?

Hayagrīva: Well, not Origen. The position of Christ is that he is seated at the right hand of the father, that he is in the spiritual sky with the father.

Prabhupāda: No, here, when Christ was present, so so many persons saw him. So what is the position?

Hayagrīva: What was the position of those people? Well those who saw him were very special people, but they saw him in many different ways, just as they saw Kṛṣṇa in different ways when He was on this earth. Different people saw Him differently.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) This is, that, disturbing.

Hayagrīva: Hm? Is this clear?

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking to him. (pause) So different persons, so that is all right. According to the status of a person, he sees another person individually. That is all right. So Christ is in his full spiritual body, that is the idea?

Hayagrīva: That's the idea.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We also think like that.

Hayagrīva: He didn't believe that the individual soul existed from all eternity. It was created. The…

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: The rational natures that were made in the beginning did not always exist. They came into being when they were created.

Prabhupāda: That is not correct. The living entity is eternally existing, as God is eternally existing, the living entity who is the part and parcel of God. But the living entity, as we have several times…, being a small spark, sometimes the illumination is extinguished or stopped for the time being, but he is eternally existing, changing the body, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], after the destruction of the body. The material life means the body is destructed, one body after another, but the living being is eternally existing, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20].

Hayagrīva: He uses this metaphor. He writes, "The human body has unity because its various members are all made for specific functions in it, and it is bounded by a single soul. In the same way, it seems to me, the whole immense, gigantic world should be regarded as one being kept alive by God's power and logos, as by a single soul."

Prabhupāda: But single soul is created, he says. But that single soul, his spiritual identity is never created. That is the difference between matter and spirit. Anything material, that is created. Spiritual is never created.

Hayagrīva: At the same time…

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You go and wash your face with water, running.

Hayagrīva: At the same time Origen differed from the later Church tradition in his belief in the transmigration of the soul. Although he believed that the soul was originally created, he believed that it transmigrated, and it transmigrated because the soul, the individual soul, could always refuse to give itself to God, although he believed that ultimately the time will come when everyone will return, and God's rule will be restored to its original integrity. This differed from later Christian tradition, which said that the choice one made in this one lifetime was decisive for all eternity. Origen doesn't believe this. He believes that you can be reincarnated at the end of this lifetime if you don't attain the ultimate goal. You'd be reincarnated in some other form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our version of the Vedas. Unless he is liberated or goes to the kingdom of God, he is, repeats, transforms, or transmigrates from one material body to another, because material body is not eternal. You can enter one material body; the material body grows or it remains for sometime; then it becomes old, and then it is useless for any purpose; you have to give up this material body and enter again into a new material body. Then you continue or fulfill your desire in that body, again it becomes old, again you have to give up, and again you have to accept another new body. Because everything material deteriorates, and the soul, being eternal, it cannot remain in the deteriorated body to function materially; therefore transmigration of the soul is essential. As the example is given that when you have got a material shirt and coat, when it is old enough, it cannot be used, you have to throw it out and accept another new shirt and coat. The material conditional life is like that. That is called transmigration.

Hayagrīva: It's interesting that Origen did not reject transmigration, neither did Christ reject transmigration. It wasn't until later, until the next philosopher that we take up, Augustine, that the idea of…

Prabhupāda: Transmigration is…

Hayagrīva: Transmigration (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: …philosophical and, I mean, fact. The example is very nicely given in the Bhagavad-gītā, with dress. As a person cannot continue the same dress perpetually-the dress becomes old, useless, and he has to change his dress-so the living being is eternal, but he has to accept a material body for material sense gratification. But the body cannot endure perpetually. Therefore it is very natural to understand that he has to change the body exactly like he has to change the dress.

Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of Origen. (end)

AUGUST.HAY

St. Augustine

Hayagrīva: This is St. Augustine, or Augustine. We'll call him Augustine. Augustine, like Origen, considered the soul to be immaterial, noncorporeal. He believed that the soul did not exist prior to the birth of the individual human being. It is only at death that the soul attains its immortal nature and lives on through eternity.

Prabhupāda: What is that? He sometimes says it is not eternal? What is the clear ending?

Hayagrīva: The soul did not exist previous to the birth of the individual human being.

Prabhupāda: Does not exist?

Hayagrīva: When the individual was created, the soul was created with him. Only after this initial creation is there immortality.

Prabhupāda: What does he mean? It is not very clear.

Hayagrīva: It is not clear.

Prabhupāda: He…

Hayagrīva: The soul is created, he is saying. That means it has…

Prabhupāda: If it's created, then how it is immortal?

Hayagrīva: It's immortal after it's created. It's created but it doesn't die.

Prabhupāda: Then what is this death?

Hayagrīva: The death is simply the death of the body.

Prabhupāda: Then if he accepts another body, then he has to accept transmigration.

Hayagrīva: No, he doesn't. Now here's, here's the point. Augustine believed that God elected some men to everlasting happiness and others to everlasting suffering. With the fall of Adam, or the first man, man was subjected to death. For Augustine, however, death is of two types: physical death-the soul leaves the body-and soul death-the death experienced by the soul when God abandons it. The damned face not only physical death but spiritual, soul death as well.

Prabhupāda: So it may…, it can be taken figuratively, that when one forgets his position, that is a kind of death also. One forgets himself. But actually soul is eternal, and what Augustine says as spiritual death, that is his forgetfulness. Just like in unconsciousness one forgets his identity, but if he is dead then he cannot revive consciousness. Similarly, it is little difficult for the bodily concept of life persons, but there are many proofs and understanding that soul is eternal. He, of course, until he gets his freedom from this material existence, he is spiritually dead. Even though he is working in this material form, because he has forgotten his real identity, that is also a kind of death. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. This śloka explains how one is dead and how one is alive. When one is forgetful of his spiritual consciousness, God consciousness, he is supposed to be dead, and when he, one is alive to the spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, he is alive. In this sense, it is a question of two stages, awakening stage and forgetful stage, but actually a soul is eternal. He never dies, even after the annihilation of this body.

Hayagrīva: But the forgetful stage is never everlasting or eternal, is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is not. It can be, what is called, revived, his consciousness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like a man is sleeping, almost unconscious, but if you call him again and again, and the sound enters through the ear into the heart, he becomes awakened. Similarly, by this chanting process he revives his spiritual consciousness, then he is alive in his spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: So then… But Augustine would say that God would eternally abandon the damned soul, a soul damned to eternal perdition.

Prabhupāda: "Eternally abandon" means for very, very long years, millions of years, he remains forgetful. So…

Hayagrīva: Seemingly eternal.

Prabhupāda: Ah. But actually he can be revived at any moment in good association, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], by this method of hearing and chanting, śravaṇam. Therefore this devotional service, beginning with hearing, is very important. If he consciously hears from the self-realized soul, then he becomes awakened to his spiritual life, and keeping himself always in the devotional service, he remains spiritually alive.

Hayagrīva: (aside:) That's the end of that tape. Augustine speaks of two cities in his… He wrote a famous book called The City of God, and one city is divine. In one city, love of God unites all men, and the other city, men are united by love of the world. One society loves the flesh, and the other society loves the spirit.

Prabhupāda: So this figurative description is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The body is considered as like city, and the soul is described as the king of the city, and he goes out from different gates. The body has got nine gates. In this way a figurative description in the…, is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But that city is figuratively taken as this body, and the king of the city is the soul. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Augustine. Augustine writes, "God is not the soul of all things but the maker of all souls." So this doctrine seems to admit of the transcendence of God but not of the eminence of God, at least not as the Paramātmā accompanying the individual soul.

Prabhupāda: He does not accept Paramātmā?

Hayagrīva: It doesn't seem to be. It seems that…

Prabhupāda: Then how God is all-pervading? The Paramātmā conception is there in the Brahma-saṁhitā:

eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ

yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara…

[Bs. 5.35]

One part of His feature, eko 'py asau. Racayitum, creation, this creation is done by one plenary portion of His person, the puruṣa-avatāra, the Mahā-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, in expanding. So, and not only one universe but millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also same thing is confirmed, atha vā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna, ekāṁśena, viṣṭabhya aham, sthito jagat: "By My one plenary portion I expand throughout all the universes, all the living entities. Even within atom I am present." So unless God has got that omnipresence potency everywhere, then how He can be omnipresent? This is one meaning. He is everywhere present by His expansion of His one plenary portion.

Hayagrīva: Augustine disagrees with Origen, who looked on the body as a prison. He says, "If the opinion of Origen and his followers where true, that matter was created, that souls might be enclosed in bodies as in penitentiaries for the punishment of sin, then the higher and lighter bodies should have been for those whose sins were slight, and the lower and heavier ones for those whose crimes were great." So…

Prabhupāda: That is Vedic conception. The soul, he, as he is, he is part and parcel of God, but he is imprisoned in different types of body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "I am the seed-giving father of all different forms of life, and the mother, material nature is the mother." That is actually very logical. Through the matter different varieties of living entities are coming out. From water, from earth, from air, even from fire, ether, everywhere, sarva-gataḥ, life, living entities are visible. Therefore the combination of five elements-earth, water, fire, air-that is the body of the living entities. And the soul is the part and parcel of the Supreme, and the souls are impregnated within this material world by God, and they come out through the womb of the mother, nature or individual mother, whatever you say. The soul is coming out of matter but it is not matter. The living entities, part and parcel of God, assuming different types of body, either you say according to pious or impious activities, or according to his pious and impious desires. Vāsanāḥ. So the desire actually is the cause of higher and lower grades of body, but the soul is the same. Therefore those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness, they see the same soul in, in each and every body. Either in the body of a dog or in the body of a brāhmaṇa, the same soul is existing, but according to different desires and karma one gets a different types of body.

Hayagrīva: Augustine believed that all men came from Adam, that is the first man or one man, and that this one man God created-this one man-and this one man is the root of all mankind. He writes, "God knew how good it would be for this community often to recall that the human race had its roots in one man, precisely to show how pleasing it is to God that men, though many, should be one."

Prabhupāda: They… It is, our Vedic conception is also like that, that the mankind has come from Manu. From Manu, human being, or manuṣya… The Sanskrit word is manuṣya, "coming from Manu." So Manu is also coming from Brahmā. In this way, as the conception of a first creature, Adam, similarly, a first living being is Lord Brahmā. Therefore our proposition is that a living being coming from the living being. Brahmā is living being, or Adam is living being. Then the living being does not come from matter. Brahmā is also coming from the Supreme Lord as raja-guṇa avatāra, incarnation of raja-guṇa. So all living being, they are coming from the Supreme Living Being. So Brahmā is also the first creature within this universe.

Hayagrīva: Augustine… Just as Augustine saw that the soul is created into a particular body, he felt that this was a gift from God, and that this was not an…

Prabhupāda: Soul is coming from particular body?

Hayagrīva: That the soul is created at a particular time… We went though this yesterday, I believe.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: The belief in the creation of the soul. The soul is created, and that the body is a gift. And he also rejects, on the basis of this, he rejects reincarnation. He writes, "Let these Platonists…" Because Plato believed in it, reincarnation. "Let these Platonists stop threatening us with reincarnation as a punishment for our souls. Reincarnation is ridiculous. There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls. If our creation, even as mortals, is due to God…"

Prabhupāda: Punishment of the soul? What is that return?

Hayagrīva: He says, "There is no such thing as a return to this life for the punishment of souls." And the reason he gives, he says, "If our…"

Prabhupāda: Soul is life. What does it mean, "returning to the life"?

Hayagrīva: He believes there is no reincarnation as punishment. Reincarnation is envisioned as a kind of a punishment. To have to take birth again is a type of punishment, and Augustine rejects this, saying that how can the return to bodies, which are gifts of God, be punishment? He doesn't see how that this is a form of…

Prabhupāda: But does he think that the body of a hog and the body of similar lower creatures eating stool and living in filthy place, is it not punishment? Does he think like that? Why one gets the body of King Indra or Lord Brahmā and why one gets the body of a pig and hog, and living in filthy place and eating stool? Is it not punishment and reward?

Hayagrīva: Well, he would say that, um…

Prabhupāda: How he explains the body of a pig eating stool?

Hayagrīva: I've been putting this off. He wouldn't agree that man could be reincarnated as an animal.

Prabhupāda: Why, why he will not agree? If a body is a gift by God, then body can be a punishment also by God.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is reasonable. When he is punished, he gets the body of a pig. When he is rewarded, he gets the body of King Indra. So that is punishment and reward.

Hayagrīva: What about the body of a man? Is that punishment or gift?

Prabhupāda: Man, man, there are many men who are very well situated and there are many men who are suffering. So two things are there according, suffering and enjoyment, according to the body. So this has been explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. According to the body the heat and, what is called, cold? Heat or cold?

Hayagrīva: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Sītā uṣṇa. That is perceived. An old man perceives very much cold, and a young child, he does not perceive-according to the body. An animal, naked body, he can walk on the street in severe cold, but a man cannot. So this body is the source of suffering and enjoying. So why not take it as punishment and reward?

Hayagrīva: Well, Augustine believes that each individual man, or each individual soul within man, is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own personal desire or sin but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes, "When the first couple," that's Adam and Eve, "were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race, which was to become Adam's posterity through the first woman, was present in the first man." So that was the origin of sin and death. So man's sin is not personal. The reason I'm in…, conditioned in this human body is not because I personally committed a mistake…

Prabhupāda: Your becoming conditioned is punishment. Why you should be conditioned?

Hayagrīva: For my…, as punishment for my own desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: For my personal desire.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he say there is not punishment?

Hayagrīva: But here he says it's because not for anything I did, but because of the original man, the sin of the original man, that everyone coming from the original man is…

Prabhupāda: Original man was punished. So the next man, he, why he comes to such father, unless he is punished? Sometimes father's disease is inherited by the son. Is it not punishment?

Hayagrīva: Yes. So the very coming into…

Prabhupāda: Body.

Hayagrīva: …the race is a punishment in itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says this on the one hand, and on the other hand he says it's a gift, not a punishment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, gift you can take. If you take it that it is given by God, so it is gift. "God has given me this body for punishment. It is His mercy that undergoing punishment I am becoming purified, making progress towards God." The devotees, they think like that. Although it is punishment, they take it as reward, because by undergoing the punishment he is making progress towards God-realization. In that sense it is a gift. Gift actually means something given by somebody. So when it is given by God for our correction, it can be taken as gift.

Hayagrīva: Augustine believes that the physical body comes first, and then the spiritual. "What is so in a natural body arises a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. But it is not the spiritual which comes first, but the physical and then the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, earthy. The second man is from heaven, heavenly. But the body which, by the life-giving spirit will become spiritual and immortal, will under no conditions be able to die." So that man must first come as a, as man, as a mortal, physical being first, in order to attain immortality.

Prabhupāda: Why man? Every living entity has a mortal body. So to enter into the mortal body, that is a kind of punishment. And then there is evolutionary process from lower grade of body to higher grade of body. That is quite reasonable, that every living entity or soul is part and parcel of God, but on account of some sinful activities or disobedience to God, as they believe Adam on account of disobedience to God they lost Paradise and came to this material world, similarly, the soul belongs to the Paradise, or heaven, or Kṛṣṇa, but somehow or other he falls down within this material world, and he gets first a body like Adam. But again, on account of his further, low-grade activities, he goes down, sometimes as human being or sometimes as more than human being-the demigod-and sometimes as animal, trees, plants. In this way he goes down, degradation, or goes up by elevation. But he is always aloof from the material body, but according to his desires and activity he gets different body. This is quite reasonable and confirmed by the Vedic literature. But his actual life is when he is freed from this material contamination, getting different bodies life after life.

Hayagrīva: Augustine conceived of peace in this way. He says, "Peace between a mortal man and his maker consists in ordered obedience guided by faith under God's eternal law. Peace between man and man consists in regulated fellowship. The peace of the heavenly city lies in a perfectly ordered and harmonious communion of those who find their joy in God and in one another in God." So that peace in its final sense is the calm that comes out of this order.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Peace means to come in contact perfectly with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is peace. When a man is in ignorance, he thinks that he is the enjoyer of this world, but when he comes in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Controller, he understands that God is enjoyer; we are not enjoyer. We are servants to supply the needs of enjoyment of God. That is our life. Just like a servant supplies the needs of the master. The master has no need, but he enjoys the company of the servant, and the servant enjoys the company of the master, because our relationship is as master and servant. A servant getting a good, nice government job is very happy, and similarly the master is also happy getting a very faithful servant. This is the relationship. So when this relationship is disturbed, that is called existence in māyā, and when this relationship is restored, that is called spiritual life. So in the spiritual consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one understands that the Supreme Lord is the actual enjoyer; we are servant. The Supreme Lord is the actual proprietor, and we are residents. And bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. And Supreme Lord is the Supreme well-wisher, friend of everyone. When a living being understands these three features of God's transcendental quality, he becomes happy.

Hayagrīva: Augustine writes, "No man must be so committed to contemplation as in his contemplation to give no thought to his neighbor's needs, nor so absorbed in action as to dispense with the contemplation of God." So he felt that activity and meditation, neither should be exclusive, but they should complement one another. They should go together.

Prabhupāda: That means devotional activities.

Hayagrīva: There should be both activity and meditation, not just one exclusive.

Prabhupāda: Meditation, when you are active, the meditation is already there. Unless you think of God, how you can be active in the service of God? So meditation about whom? Meditation about the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Supersoul within the core of heart, that is real meditation, and activities more important than meditation. If I simply sit down and think of God, that is very good, but if I factually work for God as God desires, that is more important than meditation. If you love me and simply think of me, that may be taken as meditation, but if you love me, if you carry out my orders, that is more important.

Hayagrīva: Augustine says…

Prabhupāda: You can call this (indistinct) here. Now.

Devotee: It's ten to, ten minutes to six.

Prabhupāda: So we shall finish up.

Hayagrīva: We will finish, we can finish Augustine.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: He conceived of the spiritual world as a place where the bodies are very beautiful, are very happy, they move with, with grace. The… God is the source of every satisfaction and is the consummation of all desires. The people in the spiritual sky never cease praising God, never tire of praising Him. There is no envy, and bliss is all-pervasive. Sin has no power of temptation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When he, we remain in contact with God, the sin cannot touch. That is the explanation given in the Bhagavad-gītā: daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. According to our desires we are associating with the different qualities of material nature, and we are getting different types of body. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya. Nature is the agent of Kṛṣṇa, God, so as we desire, Kṛṣṇa gives us the facility by giving us a body which is a machine. Just like father and the son. The son insists, "Father, give me a cycle." So the affectionate father gives him a cycle. And he says, "Father, give me a motorcar." So affectionate father gives him a motorcar. So this is the relationship between the father and the son. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

The father, or Kṛṣṇa, is there within the core of heart of every living entity, and as he desires, the father supplies him a type of vehicle manufactured by the material nature. So this body is given by God because we desire it, but the body is manufactured by the material nature. This is very reasonable. So we are in different types of body means in different types of vehicle, sometimes as acting on the vehicle of a pig, and sometimes we are acting on the vehicle of a very important person or demigod. But we desire such thing, and God gives us such vehicle manufactured by the material nature.

Hayagrīva: This, this is the last point. It's actually very crucial. For Augustine, the mind, reason and soul are one and the same, and he writes…

Prabhupāda: Mind, reason?

Hayagrīva: Mind, reason and the soul are all wrapped up together.

Prabhupāda: Wrapped up. But there are different identities. Intelligence… Everyone has got mind, but the mind acts under intelligence. But the intelligence of different living entities are different. Similarly mind is also different. A dog's intelligence is not equal to the intelligence of the human being. A dog's mind is not equal to the human being's mind. So actually the soul, being put under different types of body using different types of intelligence, and different some mental, psychic action, thinking, feeling, willing. So according to the body, the mind and intelligence are different.

Hayagrīva: Well, this…, thinking in this way Augustine writes, he says, "We do not apply 'Thou shalt not kill' to plants, because they have no sensation, or to irrational animals that fly, swim, walk or creep, because they are linked to us by no association or common bond. By the creator's wise ordinance they are meant for our use, dead or alive. It only remains for us to apply the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' to man alone, oneself and others." So…

Prabhupāda: So that is imagination of Augustine. But Jesus Christ does not say such qualitative killing. He says frankly, "Thou shalt not kill." When he says that, he means, "You should not kill." But when there is absolute necessity, just like he says that "One life is food for the another life…" Does he not say it like that?

Hayagrīva: He says, uh… [break] He says…, this is, this is Augustine writing. He said, "Some people try to stretch the prohibition 'Thou shalt not kill' to cover beasts and cattle and make it unlawful to kill any such animal, but then why not include plants and anything rooted in and feeding on the soil? After all, things like this, though devoid of feeling, are said to have life and therefore can die and so be killed by violent treatment."

Prabhupāda: No, that is not Vedic philosophy. Vedic philosophy admits that one living entity is the food for another living entity. That is natural. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

ahastāni sahastānām

apadāni catuṣ-padām

phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ

jīvo jīvasya jīvanam

Those who have got hands, they eat the animals without hands, only four legs, and the four-legged animals eats the animals which cannot move-that means plants and vegetables. Similarly, the weak is the food for the strong. In this way there is natural law that one living entity is food for another living entity. But our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, is not based on this platform, that plant life is not sensitive and animal life is more sensitive or human life is more sensitive. We take all of them as life, either human being or animal or plants or fish, it doesn't matter. That is inevitable. Either you eat animal or vegetable, you eat some living entity. That is inevitable. You cannot avoid. Now it it the question of selection. That, of course, is there. But apart from this vegetarian or nonvegetarian diet, we are concerned with Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Kṛṣṇa, whatever…, our philosophy is whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of His foodstuff. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You give Me food, and prepared from patraṁ phalaṁ toyam, vegetation." So if by killing vegetable or plant there is any sin, that, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We simply eat after His eating. This is our philosophy. We are not after vegetarian diet or nonvegetarian diet. Whatever Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of food.

Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of Augustine. (end)

AQUINAS.HAY

Thomas Aquinas

Hayagrīva: This is St. Thomas, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas, who lived from 1225-1274. He compiled the entire body of Church philosophy called Summa Theologe, and the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas is the official philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church. He, unlike Augustine, he did not distinguish so sharply between the material world and the spiritual world, or between secular society and the city of God. He felt that the entire creation, both material and spiritual, has its origin in the Personality of Godhead. He acknowledges at the same time that the spiritual world is superior to the material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) Material world means temporary, and some philosophers, like the Māyāvādīs, they say it is false. But we Vaiṣṇavas, we don't say it is false, but it is temporary illusion. It is reflection of the spiritual world, but there is no reality. Sometimes it is compared with the mirage in the desert. There is no water in the desert, but sometimes, by reflection of the sun, it appears that there is water. Similarly, in the material world there is no happiness, but the transcendental bliss and happiness existing in the spiritual world is reflected here, and those who are less intelligent, they are after this illusory happiness, forgetting real happiness in the spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas believed that truths, religious truths, are attained through both reason and revelation. He ascribed to Anselm's statement, "I believe in all that I may understand," and also to Abelard's, "I understand in order that I may believe," so that reason and revelation complement one another as a means to truth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Truth, through reason, that is… Of course human reason is not perfect; therefore revelation also wanted. So that truth arrived at by logic, philosophy and revelation, that is real truth. Our process is to arrive the truth through guru, spiritual master, and he is accepted as representative of the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead, and he carries the message of truth because he has seen the Absolute Truth through disciplic succession. So if we accept the bona fide spiritual master (as) representative of God and please him by submissive service, then by his mercy and pleasure we can understand God, the spiritual world, by revelation. We offer, therefore, our great respect to the spiritual master and say, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. If you can please the spiritual master, who is carrying the message of the Lord without any speculation, then God becomes revealed. Another place it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. When we engage our senses in the spirit of service to the Supreme Lord, then Lord becomes revealed. In another place it is said, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. The Lord is there, but one who is engaged in loving service to the Lord, he gets direct connection with the Lord, and the instruction also, so that the devotee may be able to enter the spiritual world.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas believed that God is the only single essence that consists of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. "Being in the universe have to acquire an individual form in order to actualize themselves. When matter unites with form, the form gives an object its individuality and personality." A form gives an object its individuality and personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mat…, matter has no form. The spirit soul has got form. Though the matter is covering the actual form of the spirit soul, the matter appears to have form. Just like the original cloth has no form, but when the tailor cuts the cloth according to the body of the person, then the shirt and coat takes a form. The matter itself has no form. When you take clay, it has no form, but if you make it like a doll, like a man or woman, then it has a form. When the change the clay, and you manufacture a fort, then the fort has form. So form and formlessness is of the matter, but in the spiritual world everything has got form. The spirit soul has got form. God has got form. This is the truth.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas believed that only God and the angels have form that is not material. There is no difference between God's form and His spiritual self.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As in the material world any form-man or beast or anyone-in the outward, external covering is matter, but within the matter there is the soul. The soul has form and God has form. That is real form. And the material form is simply shirting and coating over the spiritual body.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas gives five arguments for God's existence. The first is that there must be a first cause, a first cause of everything. The second is similar in saying the material world cannot create itself but requires something external or spiritual to bring it into existence. And the third argument claims that because the world exists, there must be a creator capable of bringing it into existence. The fourth states that since there is relative perfection in the world, there must be absolute perfection underlying this relative perfection. And the fifth is the argument from design: because the creation has design and purpose there must be a designer and planner. So at this time they were very concerned with arguments for the existence of God, and Aquinas gave these five.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We also forward these kinds of arguments. Just like we say that there is the mother and the children. The mother is the material world, and there are so many forms of children. So when the mother is existing and the children are existing, then the father must exist. Without father, how there can be children? This is your strongest argument, that these foolish philosophers contemplate without God, or "God is dead," or so many godlessness in different way, but our philosophy is strong on the fact that there must be creator of this family, mother and sons. The father must be there. What are the other arguments?

Hayagrīva: Well, the first cause, as in Brahma-saṁhitā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Yes, that is also admitted by us, that everything has got cause, and when you reach to the ultimate cause, that is God.

Hayagrīva: Because we have an idea of perfection in the world, or we see relative perfection…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …there must be some absolute perfection.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That the spiritual world is the absolute perfection, and the reflection of the spiritual world is this temporary material world. So whatever perfection we find in this material world, that is derived from the spiritual world. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], the Vedānta-sūtra, that whatever is generated, that is the param… Whatever is generated, it is from the Absolute Truth.

Hayagrīva: And the, I believe the statement that "Since in the material world we see that nothing can create itself…" It requires something different…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brain.

Hayagrīva: …to bring it into existence.

Prabhupāda: Brain, yes.

Hayagrīva: Not…, nonmaterial.

Prabhupāda: We don't find, even the biggest mountain cannot create anything, but when the spirit soul or the human being takes a stone, he can give a form to the stone. But the mountain, although it is very big, it cannot give any particular form to the stone. It remains stone.

Hayagrīva: Unlike Plato and Aristotle, Aquinas believed that God created the universe out of nothing and He…

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: He created the universe out of nothing.

Prabhupāda: No. The universe is created by God. How you can say "out of nothing"? God is there. So before creation of the universe God was there, so you cannot say that the universe was created out of nothing.

Hayagrīva: Well, but the material universe must have been created out of nothing, because it could not have arisen out of God's spiritual nature.

Prabhupāda: No. The material nature is also inferior nature of God. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. Apareyam, the material nature, means earth, water, fire, air, ether, and the subtle materials, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all emanation from God, so actually they are not unreal but inferior. They are, it is called, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. They are separated material energy. We can have a little idea, just like we are speaking in the microphone, and it is being recorded in the tape recorder. When the tape recorder is replayed, the sound coming from exactly like the original person's sound, but it is not in touch with the person, but it has come from the person. If somebody does not see wherefrom the sound is coming, he can conjecture that such and such person speaking, although such and such person is away from that speaking engagement. Similarly, this material world is emanation, is expansion, of energy of the Supreme Lord, but it is not that this material world has come into existence from nothing. No. It has come from the Supreme Truth, but it is inferior energy. The superior energy is the spiritual world, which is reality. This, this cannot be supported, that material world has come from nothing.

Hayagrīva: Was created out of nothing.

Prabhupāda: What?

Hayagrīva: Didn't say… It was created by God out of nothing. In other words…

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: …the prakṛti had a beginning in time.

Prabhupāda: God has created from His energy.

Hayagrīva: But…

Prabhupāda: His energy, you cannot say nothing. Energy exhibited.

Hayagrīva: That energy is eternally existing with Him.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes.

Hayagrīva: So, that's different, that's a different viewpoint.

Prabhupāda: Not viewpoint. Energy must be there. God, if He hasn't got energy, then how He is God? Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport], He has got multi-energies. So this is one of the energy exhibited. So you cannot say from nothing. God is everything.

Hayagrīva: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: (indistinct) Again, like Augustine, Aquinas believed that sin and man go together due to Adam's, the first man's original sin. All men require salvation. Salvation can only be attained through God's grace. The individual living entity has to assent by his free will in order for God's grace to function.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. Bhakti is devotional service. So you, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234], and bhakti is our eternal engagement. So salvation means when you are engaged in our eternal activities, that is called salvation, or liberation. When you are engaged in false activities, that is called māyā. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Muktiḥ means to remain in one's own constitutional position. In the material world we are also engaged in different types of activities, but they are with reference to the particular body. In the spiritual world spirit, as he is, is engaged in the service of the Lord. That is liberation.

Hayagrīva: Concerning law and government, Aquinas believed in the Divine Law, which consisted of the commandments of God given in the Bible. Aquinas felt that human laws also have some moral bearing, and that they also emanate indirectly from God, for he felt that all earthly powers exist by God's permission. Ideally, the Church is God's emissary on earth, and Aquinas considered it proper that the Church control earthly secular power as well. That is, he felt the secular rulers should remain subservient to the Church, and he felt that the Church could excommunicate, that means throw out, a monarch or ruler, in which case the ruler could no longer claim his throne. In other words, that the church has not only spiritual power but secular power on earth. Should have.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because the world activities must be regulated to the ultimate goal, understanding of God. Human civilization is meant for understanding God. So although the Church or the brāhmaṇas may not directly handle administrative activities, but it must be done under their supervision, or under their instruction. That is Vedic system. The brāhmaṇa is the Church, and the kṣatriya, the administrator. So the administrator used to take instruction from the brāhmaṇas, or one who can deliver a spiritual message. This is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa, millions of years ago, He instructed the message of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. Sun-god is the origin of administrators, kṣatriya. So therefore the king, or the kṣatriya who administrators the business of the state, if he follows the instruction of veda through the brāhmaṇa or the Church, then he is called rājarṣi-king, and at the same time saintly person. Although he is king, he is following the instruction of saintly person or the Church. So in this way if the brāhmaṇas or the Church are in order, their instruction is in order, and the administrators, kṣatriya, they follow that instruction, he is in order. So the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Vaiśya, if he follows the instruction of the kṣatriya, he is in order, and śūdras, they have no intelligence; therefore they follow the instruction of the three superior orders. This is the division of the society.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas considered sins to be both venial, that is petty, and mortal. The venial sin can be pardoned, but the mortal sin cannot be pardoned. Consequently, the mortal sin stains the soul. Is there anything like this?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mortal, mortal sin, mortal sin?

Hayagrīva: Mortal sin. A mortal sin would be a breaking of one of the direct commandments of God given in the Bible, such as "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: So anyway, we also have similar passage, that kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare. This is mortal sins, when the living entity disobeys the order of God, he is put into this material world, and that is his punishment. And he either rectifies himself by good association or he continues this transmigration one body after another and suffers this tribulations of material existence.

Hayagrīva: But in any case, how can a sin, any sin, stain the soul if the soul cannot be stained in any way?

Prabhupāda: He is not stained, but as spirit soul, but he can be put into sinful activity. Just like the water and the oil, if you put the oil on the water, it does not mix with the water, it remains as separate from the water, but he is carried away, this. The oil floating on the water is carried away by the water. So that means as soon as we put in material contact then, on account of our contact, we are practically under the clutches of the water, or material world. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. As soon as the living entity puts himself in the material world, he loses his own power. He is completely under the clutches of the water. This is the exact similarity. The oil never mixes with the water, but as soon as the oil is in touch with the water, it is being carried away by the waves of the water. [break]

Hayagrīva: Continuation of Aquinas. Aquinas felt that the monastic vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience gave one a direct path to God but that they are not meant for the masses of men. He conceived of life as a pilgrimage through the world of the senses, through the world of nature, and to the spiritual world of God's grace. These, when a…, when one enters a monastery he takes a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience, these three vows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is called tapasya. According to Vedic instruction one must take to the path of tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily self-denial, sense gratification denial. That is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya, our austerity begins with brahmacarya, celibacy, no sex life. That is the beginning of tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena vā, controlling the senses, controlling the mind. Then tyāgena, renouncement or giving in charity, whatever you have got, for the service of the Lord, tyāgena; satya-śaucābhyām, by following the path of truthfulness and remaining cleansed; yamena niyamena vā, by practice of mystic yoga. In this way one makes advancement towards spiritual kingdom or spiritual world. But all these can be totally performed simply by engaging oneself in devotional service. That is also stated: kecit kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ [SB 6.1.15]. If one becomes devotee of Lord Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then simply by executing devotional service he attains the result of austerity, celibacy, and mystic yoga practice, and the result of charity, truthfulness, cleanliness-everything attains simultaneously, without separate effort. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading devotional service. By one stroke, the candidate can attain the results of all other processes.

Hayagrīva: This is a point where Catholic doctrine seems to differ. Aquinas did not believe in a soul per say, or pure soul per say, as divorced from a particular form. God did not simply create a soul. He created an angelic soul, or the soul of a demigod, a human soul, an animal soul, a plant soul, etc. He believed that simply to create a pure soul, a being, would be almost the same as creating God Himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So again we see the Christian conception that God created the soul out of nothing.

Prabhupāda: No. The soul is created and… Actually not created. Soul is existing along with God, just like the sparks of fire is existing with the fire. But the difference between the two fire is that the sparks may be separated from the big fire, and when it is separated, is loses its illumination. Similarly, an individual soul is already there. The master is there and the servants are there, eternally. Just like the body is there, the parts of the body are also there. We cannot say that the parts of the body is separately created. As soon as the body is there, the fingers of the body are there, the other limbs and parts of the body are all there. The soul is never created or never dead. It is explained in the Bhāgavata, na jāyate vā mriyate vā. Soul has neither creation nor death. It appears, because the soul has accepted this material body, with the end of this material body it appears that somebody is dead. But he is not dead. He simply transfers from this body to another body, and when he is liberated, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. Then in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So actually the soul is never created. It is always existing with God, and this is nice that if it is accepted the soul is created, then God is also Supreme Soul-the question may be raised that He is also created. So that is not the fact. God is eternal, and His part and parcels are also eternal. The only difference is that God never accepts this material body, but the individual soul, being small particle, it may be sometimes he succumbs by the material energy.

Hayagrīva: So…, but the soul is eternally existing with God in some form?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Well that…, well then maybe this is saying the same thing. "By its nature the form of the soul is the form of the body. It is that form incorruptible."

Prabhupāda: No. The form…, material body is imitation, is false. Real body is the spiritual body. Because the spiritual body has form, the coating of the spiritual body by matter takes a form, as I have already explained, that the shirt and coat originally has no form, but when the shirt and coat is cut by the tailor according the form of the man, it takes a form. So actually this material form is illusion. It is not form. It, it takes the form, and when it is old enough, no more use, it again comes to the original position, earth. "Dust thou art, dust thou beist." This form is made by the material nature. It is just like a machine. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. The soul has its own form, but he is given a machine, a particular machine, which is this body, and therefore he enjoys by wandering throughout the whole universe in different conditions of life.

Hayagrīva: I think the problem with all of these is that they cannot conceive of spiritual form. When they speak of form they are thinking that there must necessarily be matter involved. Aquinas believed that the Augustinian and Platonic doctrines of the complete independence of the soul from matter or the material body denied man's substantial unity. That is, man is body and soul. He is a particular type of soul in a particular type of body.

Prabhupāda: It…, it is the same argument, that when you are dressed it appears that you are not different from the dress. The coat is moving, the pants is moving, but actually it is completely different from the person who is putting on the coat and shirt.

Hayagrīva: So in other words they, he, he actually had no idea of spiritual form as such.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Hayagrīva: He considered that matter was necessary to give the soul form.

Prabhupāda: No. He has got his original form.

Hayagrīva: Original form?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Which is the form of the body.

Prabhupāda: Original form, that is the form of the spirit.

Hayagrīva: Of the spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the form of the body takes place on account of the form of the spirit. This is very nice example. The cloth has no form, but when it is cut according to the form of the gentleman, it takes a form. Similarly, matter has no form. When it is coated on the spiritual form of the soul, it takes the form. This is very easy to understand.

Hayagrīva: To get on to another point, Aquinas believed, or rather he opposed sex for any purpose other than the begetting of children, and not only should sex be used only for the begetting of children, but that when one begets children one takes the responsibility of giving them a spiritual education.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Vedic injunction, that don't beget children unless you can give the children relief from the cycle of birth and death. One should not become father and mother. That is responsible father and mother. And without this responsibility, if a man gives birth to a child and if a woman bears the pregnancy, that is prohibited. One should not become a father, one should not become a mother unless they are competent to give freedom to the children from the cycle of birth and death.

Hayagrīva: His argument, well, he says, "Marriage is natural to man, and an irregular connection outside of marriage is contrary to the good of man; therefore fornication must be sinful."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But he goes on to argue, "The inordinate emission of semen is repugnant to the good of nature, which is the conservation of the species. Hence, after the sin of murder, whereby human nature already in actual existence is destroyed, this sort of sin seems to hold a second place whereby the generation of human nature is precluded." Well how, people today would ask, how could the argument of the generation or the, the conservation of the species still hold, since there's so many human beings, since there are almost four billion human beings on this earth, how could this argument still hold that, uh…?

Prabhupāda: That, what is that argument?

Hayagrīva: That sex is only to beget children, for propagation of the species, and any other use is…

Prabhupāda: Sinful.

Hayagrīva: …sinful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we recommend in our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness: no illicit sex. Illicit sex means not producing…, not for producing children but for enjoyment. That is sinful. And…

Hayagrīva: Well the conservation, what he calls the conservation of the species, that doesn't enter into it.

Prabhupāda: No. The soul is already explained, that it has nothing to do with the body, but he has to accept a certain type of body on account of his association with certain type of modes of nature.

Hayagrīva: So this is actually a faulty argument to say that, that illicit sex is sinful because it threatens the conservation of the species.

Prabhupāda: Illicit sex is sinful. Illicit sex is sinful, because it is not meant for begetting child; it is for sense gratification. Sense gratification in any form is sinful.

Hayagrīva: He believed, like Plato, in an enlightened monarch ruling, but in certain cases Aquinas believed that it was not necessary for men to obey…

Hari-śauri: (aside:) It wasn't very much, just, uh… I can… Shall I cut another one?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: …that it was not necessary for man to obey human laws if these laws were opposed to human welfare and were…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …instruments of violence.

Prabhupāda: This is very good. First of all they must know what is the welfare of the human being. Unfortunately, with advancement of so-called material education, the human society is missing the aim of life. The aim of life is declared openly in the Vedānta philosophy, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the aim of human life. In the Bhāgavata it is said, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. The life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. That is the aim of human life. The whole Vedic civilization is based on this principle. But on account of deviating from the original Vedic civilization, they have dedicated the human form of life in so many unnecessary scientific discoveries, that discovery, which will not give him any relief to the human society. The real tribulation of life is birth, death and disease and old age. So the so-called advancement of material civilization has not solved the real problem of life, and the aim of human life is to solve the real problem of human life. The real problem of life, that we are eternal, as eternal as God, but we are subjected to birth and death. So with the poor fund of knowledge in the Kali-yuga, people being very bad, or slow for self-realization, and they create their own way of life, mandāḥ sumanda-matayo [SB 1.1.10], and they are unfortunate and, and disturbed. Disturbance is always there, but they are not mindful about the real disturbances of life. Now, on the whole in this age, practically the human being has become like animal. The animal, although always in disturbed condition, cannot understand the aim of life, what is his position. So this type of civilization is very, very dangerous to the human society, that they have no aim of life.

Hayagrīva: So he concludes we must obey God rather than men, in terms of laws.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We can obey such man who obeys the laws of God. Otherwise they…, it is useless to obey an imperfect person. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. To obey the imperfect person means just like a blind man following other blind man. So what benefit he will get? If one blind man is begging help from others, "Please help me in crossing the road," if another blind man comes and he says, "Yes, come on with me," so what will be the result? Both will be crushed by accident. So any, any person who does not follow the instruction of the Supreme Controller, he is a blind person. He cannot lead. As we are concerned, we therefore don't accept the so-called scientist's or philosopher's belief. They say, "We believe," "Perhaps it may be like this." These are all doubtful declaration. There is no truth in it. If there is any truth, that is also doubtful. Why should we risk our life by following such blind man who is thinking, who is believing, but he has no clear knowledge? Therefore we have decided to take lesson from the Supreme Person, Kṛṣṇa, who knows everything perfectly well. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. He knows past, present and future, and what is our benefit, welfare, everything. So we should follow Kṛṣṇa instead of so-called blind philosophers.

Hayagrīva: Aquinas writes on beauty and contrasts the absolute beauty of God, which is beautiful in all times and all places, absolute beauty. He contrasts this with the relative beauty that we find in the world, and he says, "He is beautiful in Himself and not in relation to some limited terminus," that is God. "Hence, it is clear that the being of all things is derived from the Divine beauty. By God's own beauty He wishes to multiply it as far as possible; that is to say, by the communication of His likeness. Indeed, all things are made in order to imitate Divine beauty in some fashion."

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is the reservoir of all knowledge, all beauty, all strength, all renunciation, all riches. He is the reservoir of everything; therefore He is God. So beauty, whatever we see beautiful, that is emanation from, a very minute percentage of God's beauty. (aside:) Who paid this?

Hari-śauri: Someone gave it this morning.

Hayagrīva: Concerning theology and philosophy, Aquinas writes, "Just as sacred doctrine is based on the light of faith, so is philosophy founded on the natural light of reason. Hence it is impossible for items that belong to philosophy to be contrary to those that pertain to faith, but the former may be defective." That is, philosophy may be defective in comparison with, with the latter, theology, which is based on faith. "If any point among the statements of the philosophers is found contrary to faith, this is not philosophy but rather an abuse of philosophy resulting from a defect in reasoning."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say, that every man is defective on account of his material condition of life. So philosophy coming from such defect persons cannot be any good for the human society. Philosophy coming from a person who is in contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is perfect. That will benefit human society. And the speculative philosopher, who has no definite idea, simply basing on his belief or imagination, by following such philosophy nobody will be benefited; rather, he will be deviated from the actual philosophy of life.

Hayagrīva: So he concludes that Divine revelation is absolutely necessary, because by the philosophical method very few men could arrive at the truth, and only after a long time and many errors.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. The so-called philosophers, they are imperfect, so there is no need of consulting them. Our path is that you directly contact the Supreme Person in knowledge, who has got complete knowledge-Kṛṣṇa-and we take His instructions and try to follow Him.

Hayagrīva: This knowledge based on revelation or scripture is called sacred doctrine or scripture. He says it, this scripture, "does not provide information about God and about creatures in equal fashion, but about God principally and about creatures as they are related to God as to a source or to an end. Hence the unity of the science is not ended." So scripture for him is the science of God.

Prabhupāda: This is science of God.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: God is explaining Himself… [break]

Hayagrīva: This is a continuation of Thomas Aquinas. We've been discussing sacred doctrine, which is the same as scripture. He states that the only author of sacred scripture is God Himself, within whose power is not only to adjust words to their meaning, which even man can do, but also to adjust things themselves. In reading the scripture, one should avoid two mistakes. 1) One should not think that they can be false in any way.

Prabhupāda: False?

Hayagrīva: That there's no falsity.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: Falsity cannot form the basis of Divine scripture, which has been handed down by the Holy Spirit. That's one mistake one can make in reading scripture. Another, he says, "No one should try to restrict scripture to one meaning to such an extent that other meanings containing some truth and quite possible in relation to the context would be excluded. In fact it belongs to the dignity of Divine scripture to contain many meanings in one text, so that in this way it may be appropriate to the various understandings of men."

Prabhupāda: Meaning is one, but interpreter are different. Just like even in the Bible it is said, "God created the universe." So that is a fact, God created. So unless you interpret in a different way, how you can say that the universe is created by some chunk and this way and that way? So we accept scripture in that sense, without any change; therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We cannot change the words of God. That is our principle. And interpretation with motive, there are so many interpreter, and that has spoiled the God consciousness of the human society.

Hayagrīva: Well this is rather strange, because Aquinas, his writings form the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church has always emphasized one meaning, which is interpreted by the Pope, by the head of the Church. The meaning is given by the Pope, of scripture, because…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is…

Hayagrīva: But here he says that the scriptures may contain many meanings according to one's degree of realization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not many meaning. Meaning is one, but if one is not realized, then he can make many meanings. Otherwise meaning is one. What can be any other meaning? Suppose God created this universe. This is stated in the Bible, or in the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is expressed in a different way, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "From Me everything emanates." So that's a fact, that everything is coming out from God's energy, so why there should be second meaning and second interpretation unless one is godless? What is the possible second meaning?

Hayagrīva: That means…

Prabhupāda: God created, that's all accepted. God created. What the second meaning?

Hayagrīva: Well, he would give the example of the creation of God walking through… In the Bible it's stated that God walks through Paradise in the afternoon. He would cite this…

Prabhupāda: No, no, God…

Hayagrīva: …as having an interior meaning.

Prabhupāda: If God can create, He can walk also, He can speak also, He can touch also, He can see also. God is a person. So where is the second meaning? What is the possible second meaning?

Hayagrīva: The second meaning, as far as I could see, would be based on an impersonal interpretation.

Prabhupāda: So God cannot be impersonal. If He is creator, how He can be impersonal? He must be person; otherwise there is no meaning. [break] (end)

HOBBES.HAY

Thomas Hobbes

Hayagrīva: His most famous work, Thomas Hobbes, yes, is called Leviathan, and the word Leviathan…

Prabhupāda: Leviathan?

Hayagrīva: Leviathan. It initially referred to a sea monster who was defeated by Yahweh in the Judaic scriptures, and the word can refer to anything large or formidable, like a great sea monster, Leviathan. So Hobbes used the word Leviathan to refer to a ruling body or monarch in a state, and he called this Leviathan a mortal God who is under the immortal God. And this Leviathan or king or monarch would rule the government above the law. Now you discussed this with Śyāmasundara, but Śyāmasundara didn't point out that Hobbes felt that the Leviathan, or ruler, need not obey the law. Now according to the Vedic conception, is the king or the monarch above the law?

Prabhupāda: No. The king is also under the law. King, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa instructed the law to Sun-god, and he followed the laws. Therefore he is, to the common man, he is the supreme. The king is supposed to be representative of God in the state. So "above the law" means because king is perfect by abiding the laws of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot be subjected to any subordinate laws. But his perfection is there only when he follows Kṛṣṇa's order. Therefore monarchy, the law, king's order, is final. There cannot be any… Just like king's mercy. Even one is condemned to death, but if the king's mercy is there that he should be excused, he should be free, nobody can check. So why it is? Because king is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. He first of all said the laws, the Bhagavad-gītā, which is so important for the human civilization millions of years, at least forty millions of years it was spoken to the sun-god, and sun-god gave it to his son Manu, Manu, and his son Ikṣvāku inherited from Manu. This way the absolute law is coming by disciplic succession. And formerly India was governed by monarchy. They received the law of God by disciplic succession. They executed. Therefore whatever he decides, that is final. He cannot be subjected to any other law. So the king, if he is following the laws given by God, then he is above all laws, material convention.

Hayagrīva: Hobbes compares man to a machine ultimately made by God, but he does not see this machine as controlled directly by God but by the Leviathan, by the, by the king, the ruler.

Prabhupāda: No. God is situated in everyone's heart, and He is seeing every minute action of the soul-what he is desiring, how he is manipulating the machine. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Specifically it is indicated that God is situated in the heart of the living being and He is observing what he desires. So according to his desire, God is so kind He is supplying a machine. If he wants to enjoy this material world as a human being, God gives him opportunity to become a human being, and if he wants to enjoy this material world as a dog, He gives him the body of a dog. If he wants to enjoy as a hog, He gives the body of a hog. If he wants to enjoy as demigod, He gives him the body. So this is God's mercy. So long the individual living being wants to enjoy this material world, so according to his eagerness to enjoy in that way, He gives the facility, and that facility is the particular body. This body is material. It is supplied by the material nature, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. The machine is made by the material ingredients, upon the order of Kṛṣṇa, or God, for the enjoyment of the living entity. So he sits in that machine and travels. Just like we have got a car, we can travel, similarly we get particular machine and we travel in some species of life in some planet. There are innumerable planets, and 8,000,000 species of life. So according to the contact with material nature, the living entity is desiring something, and God is so merciful that He is giving him facility. But actually, because God is friend, when he is prepared to understand from God how he will be happy, He says that "You give up all this nonsense plan. You just surrender unto Me." Then he is perfect. Otherwise if he desires, God will supply him unlimited number of machine for going here and there, up and down, within this universe. There are two process: either you go up or come down, and the down means lower species of life; up means higher species of life. Just like demigods, Brahmā, his one day's life calculation is impossible to do. So there are different places of life, millions of years' living and a few moment living. So everything opportunity is given by God because He is supreme controller. We desire: Man proposes, God disposes. This is God's position. But so long he will go on proposing this and that, he will never be happy. When he agrees to the plan of God, then he will be happy.

Hayagrīva: Hobbes says that warfare is perpetual and that the struggle for existence goes on and on, and therefore the Leviathan is necessary. This… He believes in the divine right of kings, that the Leviathan is like God's representative, God's lieutenant, and he has his sovereignty under God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If…

Hayagrīva: Like a Vedic monarch or a…

Prabhupāda: That is perfection of monarchy. God… The king is called nṛpa-deva, nara-deva. Although he is in human form of body, he is God.

Hayagrīva: He also said that this could be not only an individual but a group of individuals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Group of individuals can remain, provided they are all devotees. But if the group of individuals, if they are all rogues and rascals, they cannot be representative of God. But either singular or plural, if all of them or single actually representative of God abiding by the laws… Laws means actual, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. For God said that is actual religion or law. And if we manufacture in our own ways, without reference to the God's program, it will be useless and failure.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Some men have pretended for their disobedience to their sovereign a new covenant or a new agreement with God, made not with men but with God. This also is unjust, for there is no covenant or agreement with God but by mediation of somebody that represents God's person, which none does but God's lieutenant, who has this sovereignty under God." Could a monarch use this argument, which is the argument of divine right, in order to discourage his subjects' rebelling under the pretense that they are communing directly with God? What guidelines are there to assure against this? There was… Wasn't there one king, King Vena, King…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vena. So everything depends on the king's accepting the absolute instruction of God. So king, in Vedic civilization, the king was absolutely following the regulation given by God, and it was confirmed by saintly persons, sages. Then it was executed; not whimsically. There was advisory board of the monarchy always. They were not politician, diplomat, but they were all saintly person, knew very well the Vedas, and they used to guide the monarch. Therefore the monarch is absolute governing body. The ministers were helping, but the king was educated by God's direct instruction, as Kṛṣṇa said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. Vivasvān, the sun-god, there are tradition two kṣatriya family-one from the sun-god and one from the moon-god. Sūrya-vaṁśa and candra-vaṁśa. The kṣatriyas in India, they claim. And that is a fact, because we see that Sūrya, sun-god, is the original kṣatriya. From him came Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. This is the age of Vaivasvata Manu, and from him came his son, Ikṣvāku. So by the paramparā system, if we take Kṛṣṇa's instruction… Kṛṣṇa's instruction is already there. If the governments all over the world take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then every government will be perfect and there will be no disturbance of peace and happiness. That will be perfect world. Kṛṣṇa has given instruction in all fields of activities. Simply we have to take it practically. But the people are so foolish that instead of taking the standard way of living, they are manufacturing on account of their demonic tendency. They, the head of the state, they are degraded, either individually or collectively, so how there can be good government? If they become perfect according to the instruction of God, then everything will be perfect.

Hayagrīva: And Hobbes, finally, gives the, this definition of God: "A most pure, simple, invisible spirit corporeal."

Prabhupāda: Corporeal?

Hayagrīva: Spirit corporeal.

Prabhupāda: Well why invisible?

Hayagrīva: Invisible.

Prabhupāda: Why? Invisible…

Hayagrīva: Invisible…

Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa says, Kṛṣṇa came, He was visible, and Arjuna was talking with Him face to face. So why is unvisible? If He likes, that is His…, that depends on His good will. He becomes visible to a competent or perfect person. He is visible. Just like Arjuna was talking with God, not only visible, was talking face to face. He was asking question, and Kṛṣṇa was answering. So one has to become qualified like Arjuna to…, then he will see Kṛṣṇa, or God, and he will talk with Him, he will get direct instruction. There is no difficulty. So He is not visible to the imperfect person, but He is visible to the perfect person. But He is not at all invisible.

Hayagrīva: Well, that's all on Hobbes. (end)

DESCARTES.HAY

Rene Descartes

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of the notations on Descartes.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Descartes, Rene Descartes, the French… Descartes writes, "The power of forming a good judgment and of distinguishing the true from the false, which is, properly speaking, what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men. God has given to each of us some light with which to distinguish truth from error." Now in the West this has been called conscience, and Descartes uses the term "reason." Now is this simply a form of mental speculation, or is the…

Prabhupāda: No. Mental speculation should be there. It is not actually speculation but it is reasoning. Just like if we study our own body, whether I am this lump of matter, namely this skin, bone and stool, urine and muscle and blood… If we analyze this body we find practically these things. So the reasoning is that whether combination of these things can give life. So externally we have got all these things. Blood we can get from slaughterhouse, and bone we can collect, or you can manufacture and set up an instrument with these things. Will it be, bring life? So the reasoning is life is different from this lump of matter. That is reasoning. Why…

Hayagrīva: But he…

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: He says reason is by nature equal in all men. Now isn't reasoning power different in different men?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why it is called "This man is intelligent," other man is called "You are ass." So when, on this reasoning platform, when one comes to the conclusion that the living force within the body is different from this lump of matter, then he is on the human platform. And if he keeps himself that this life means combination of these material things, then he remains an animal. This is the reasoning. Where is the life? You analyze beginning from the breathing up to the urine and stool-where you will find life? That is human reasoning. Human civilization is now advanced in analyzing things in the chemical laboratory. So if we analyze this breathing, it is air. So you replace this air, let life come again. What is this breathing? Breathing is simply exhaling and inhaling some air. So by machine, by electric, what is called, batteries, let it work and it will act accordingly, breathing. But does it mean it will bring life? So they say breathing is stopped; therefore life is stopped. So breathing can be revived, but where is the life? They say the blood has become white. So blood can be colored. So anything of this body, analyze perfectly and bring life; then you say that life is combination of this matter. You cannot bring it; therefore it must be concluded that life is different from this combination of matter. This is reasoning. This is human reasoning. And if you still keep yourself that this body is, it is everything, then you are animal. This is reasoning. That is the verdict of the Vedic…, sa eva go-kharaḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. If one is thinking still that he is this body, he is no better than animal. There is no reasoning. Who can challenge this? Analyze every part of the body. Where is life? Hm? What do you think? Is that reasoning or not?

Hayagrīva: Yes. Now the reason is one thing, but intellection is another there.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Intellection and reason you would call the same?

Prabhupāda: Intellect?

Hayagrīva: Intellection and reason and the Supersoul speaking from within?

Prabhupāda: The Supersoul, soul…

Hayagrīva: That's something different.

Prabhupāda: …that we shall consider later. First of all come to the reasoning, that this combination of air, water and bone and muscle and urine and stool is not life. You first of all come to that, then we have to find out that what is that soul. First of all you come to this conclusion. "This is not," neti. "This is not." Then what is the positive thing, that we have to search, athāto. That is brahma-jijñāsā. What is that Brahman? It is not matter. Then we will come to the conclusion that Brahman is the origin of this matter, because the matter is developing on the soul. That is also reasoning. Simply sex does not create pregnancy unless there is soul. They have so many times sex, so not every time there is pregnancy. Of course, it is expected, but… Anyway, when the soul is injected in the womb of the woman, then the pregnancy means the matter develops, and that we can see outside the pregnancy also-when the child comes out it develops a body. And if this child comes out dead, there is no development. Therefore the soul is the basic principle of material development. That means a seed of a tree, so you sow it, and if the soul takes shelter of the seed, then it grows to a plant; otherwise does not grow. The same seed, if you fry it and sow it, then it will not, because unsuitable for the soul to remain in that seed. So athāto brahma jijñāsā janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1].

So the matter is coming out on the positive existence of the soul. This is to be learned. Without soul being present within the womb of the woman there is no pregnancy, there is no development of the matter. We can see the same thing, that the child is developing or changing the body because the soul is there. This is reasoning. Where is the difficulty? So the philosophy, first of all find out what is that external thing which is the living force. By analyzing this material body we don't find any symptom of life either from breathing or from blood or from (indistinct). Therefore something extra. Now you find out what is that extra. That extra you will find out if you come to the right platform-that it is soul, jīvātmā. And on the basis of jīvātmā, that is very minute. If you take authority of the Vedic śās…, very, very minute, one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair, a very small particle that we cannot find it where it is in the body. It is very small. So with your material eyes and material instruments it can not be found. We are missing. But this thing is there, we get information from the śāstra. Therefore the life is going on, it is so powerful. Just like the sun is ninety-three million miles away, but it is keeping the whole universe illuminated. Similarly, although the soul is very, very small particle, it is keeping this body alive, fresh. So by material analysis you cannot find out, because it is so small you cannot see that. But it is to be accepted that because that small particle is there, this body has developed. So the conclusion is that matter comes on account of soul, not that combination of matter produces soul. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. First of all the inquiry, "What is that living force?" Then the conclusion is next, that on account of this living force this material body has come. Therefore the conclusion should be that God is the supreme living force on which the cosmic manifestation has developed. That is our theory, that Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is there, then the universe comes into existence, and Brahmā is born and he creates so many.

Hayagrīva: And this reason… He says, "I fall into error because the power which God has given me of distinguishing the true from the false is not in me an infinite power." So by reason we can never…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …be certain…

Prabhupāda: Yes, infinite. I am, I am finite. I, as soul or as Brahman, am finite Brahman, and therefore there must be one infinite Brahman. That infinite Brahman is God, and finite Brahman is jīva, living entity. Therefore in the Vedic literature the God is accepted as the chief living being. Just like we have got in our family the father is supposedly chief man in the family, and sons and daughters, they are subordinate. These are common understanding. Similarly, God is the origin of all living entities and we are subordinate living entity, just like the father and the sons, and that is accepted by any religious sect, that God is the supreme father and we are son. That is accepted everywhere. And as the sons, children, they exist by the mercy of the father, similarly, our existence is continuing on account of mercy of the supreme father. This is reasoning.

Hayagrīva: He says, "These perfections which I am attributing to God, which are infinite, immutable, independent, all-knowing, all-powerful…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…these perfections are in some fashion potentially in me…,"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…although they do not show themselves."

Prabhupāda: But they are finite. They are finite, very small particle. That I have already explained many times, that the creative force is in me. I can create also. Now in the modern scientific knowledge, so I have created a big plane floating in the air, but I cannot create another planet with so many mountains and vast water, oceans, and trees. That I cannot do. That is done by God. This planet is also floating in the air and the tiny 747 plane is also floating in the air. So that is created by me, infinite, ah, finite. I have no other more power. Even if I float a city like plane, still I am finite. But God has created this planet or many other planets with so many things-mountains, seas and forests and cities and so many. That is the difference between… The creative power is there. Because I am part and parcel of God, I have got that creative power. So I have got also little knowledge. I know my knowledge within my atmosphere, but God knows everything. That is explained, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], abhijñaḥ, itarataś ca. Abhijñaḥ, abhijñaḥ means He knows everything. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, vedāhaṁ sarvam, "I know everything." That is the difference. When Arjuna questioned Kṛṣṇa that "How it is that You remember millions of years ago, You taught Bhagavad-gītā?" And that Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, that is the difference between you and Me. I remember; you forgot." So therefore in all cases God is also living being, I am also living being, but I am very, very small, finite, and He is infinite. He is also living being. [break]

Hayagrīva: Continuing Descartes, he writes, "It is not an imperfection in God that He has given me the freedom of assenting or not assenting to things of which He has not placed a clear and distinct knowledge in my understanding. On the other hand, unquestionably it is an imperfection in me that I do not use this freedom right, yet…" So but one may then ask, Why doesn't God give us the understanding whereby we can choose properly in all cases?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Why can't we have free will and at the same time…

Prabhupāda: Free will means…

Hayagrīva: …infallible judgment?

Prabhupāda: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.

Hayagrīva: A man may know better but still act wrongly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing-he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison-everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will.

Hayagrīva: In a sense he says that when one knows God he knows everything else, because…

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he knows God and follows the instruction of God then he is right, and as soon as he goes against the instruction of God, then he is wrong. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: "Now I have given you all instruction. It is up to you to accept or reject." Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. That is free will. So now it depends on me whether I shall act according to the instruction of God or I shall act according to my whims, according to my sensual inclinations.

Hayagrīva: He says, "I see that the certainty in truth of all knowledge depends on knowledge of the true God, and that before I knew Him I could have no perfect knowledge of any other thing, and now that I know Him I have a means of acquiring a perfect knowledge of innumerable things, not only in respect of God Himself and other intelligible things, but also in respect of that corporeal nature which is the object of pure mathematics." Now he says he knows God but at the same time he seems to be deceived in matters, certain matters that we haven't come to yet, but, uh…

Prabhupāda: No. If he has actually followed God's instruction and if he has actually knowledge of what is God, then he will never be misled. Either he selects a false God or he has not met God, real God. Then he is… But to save this danger there is God's instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who will follow, he will be perfect.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the soul, Descartes concludes that…

Prabhupāda: Now in this connection, regarding the soul, if he has received the knowledge of soul from God, therefore at that time there is no chance of he is thinking. If, as soon as he thinks in his own way, then there may be mistakes, because he is imperfect, finite. But when Kṛṣṇa says directly that "Within this body the soul is there," so if we accept God's instruction, then immediately we understand that the soul is different from this body. Exactly just like if somebody inquires, "Where is Prabhupāda?" If somebody says that "He is in this room," it does not mean this room is Prabhupāda; Prabhupāda is within this room. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that this, the owner of the body, the soul, is within this body. So immediately the false impression that "I am this body," the fool's conclusion, immediately it is eradicated. The light is there, but he will not accept. He wants to continue to live as a fool and speculate and waste time and con…, give conclusion in so many ways, so many rascal jugglery, "The living force is like this, like that, like that." But Kṛṣṇa gives instruction immediately that the living force, soul, is within this body; he is not this body. And He gives complete instruction on this at… He says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] "This soul is never killed even the body is killed." This is knowledge. In spite of this knowledge, if somebody sticks to his foolish theories, then he remains animal.

Hayagrīva: There was a lot of conjecture at this time on where the soul is located, and he writes, "It is likewise necessary to know that although the soul is joined to the whole body, there is yet in there a certain part in which it exercises its functions more particularly than in all the others, and that it is usually believed that this part is the brain or possibly the heart."

Prabhupāda: The heart.

Hayagrīva: "The brain because it is within…, because it is with that the organ of sense are connected, and the heart because it is apparently in it that we experience the passions." We… He thought that the soul was in the pineal gland at the base of the brain, because we think with the brain, but that he wasn't certain. He thought, "Well, our passions are in the heart, so maybe it's in the heart."

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: "Maybe it's in the brain."

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to accept God's instruction. He definitely gives the information, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvaraḥ means the controller. So the soul is the controller of this body. So He is within the heart; it is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. There are two kinds of īśvaraḥ, controller. One is the ordinary controller, that means the individual living being, and the other is the supreme living being. We get from Vedic information both of them sitting together on this body tree. So both cases, the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are living within the heart. That is the right conclusion.

Hayagrīva: But at the same time the soul pervades the entire body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That portion which is spread all over the body, that is immortal. So this is the illumination or the shining of the soul. That the sun is situated localized in a particular place, that we can see everyday, but his illumination is distributed all over the universe. Similarly, although the soul is situated within the heart, his illumination is spread all over the body. So that is consciousness. So as soon as the soul is out from the heart, which is known as heart failure, when he leaves the heart, then what is the use of this heart? It becomes a lump of matter. Immediately consciousness is absent from the whole body. So it is upon the leaving of the soul this body there is no more consciousness. This is reasoning. Why a second before there was consciousness and after there is no consciousness? If you chopped up the body there will be no protest, there will be no feeling of pain, that "What is that?" This is reasoning, that something is missing. That soul has gone out; therefore the consciousness in the body is absent. That soul is immortal; the consciousness is also immortal. Now the consciousness, by the influence of illusory energy, is engaged in so many material things-consciousness of society, consciousness of nationality, consciousness of this, that, so many. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is educating movement, how the consciousness can be purified to remain only Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his life is successful.

Hayagrīva: All right…

Prabhupāda: What?

Hayagrīva: Here we go. In a letter, Descartes wrote, "I know that brutes," that is animals, "do many things better than we do, and I am not surprised at this, for that also goes to prove that they act by course of nature. If they could think as we do…"

Prabhupāda: No. Not force of nature. By force of God.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In the heart of the brute also there is God.

Hayagrīva: "If they could think as we do, they would have an immortal soul as well as we, which is not likely because there is no reason for believing it of some animals without believing it of all, and there are many of them too imperfect to make it possible to believe it of them, such as oysters, sponges, etc." Is thinking a necessary function of the soul? He says, well for instance an oyster. How does he know whether or not an oyster thinks?

Prabhupāda: God is there giving him. God is, gives us instruction that we will advance, human being. We refuse, but they do not refuse.

Hayagrīva: You've said that anything that grows has a soul. The grass has a soul, has soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In dormant state.

Hayagrīva: Dormant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just as child has soul, but it is not yet…, the body has not yet developed. According to the body, according to the circumstances, the soul acts.

Hayagrīva: But he equates the mind and the higher mental processes with the soul.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: And, uh…

Prabhupāda: Mind is an instrument through which the soul acts. Mind is rejecting and accepting by the dictation of the soul.

Hayagrīva: He looked on animals as machines that react, and the basis for this view is…, he called it radiosenation, or language, because they do not have language…

Prabhupāda: They have got language.

Hayagrīva: They react as machines.

Prabhupāda: They have got language. You do not understand it.

Hayagrīva: It's been proved scientifically…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …that they actually… Dolphins, we, we have been able to even speak to dolphins, to communicate verbally. That also…

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was speaking with everyone. With the birds He was speaking. One old gopī went to the Yamunā to take bath, and when she saw that Kṛṣṇa was speaking with the bird, then she, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa can speak with the birds." She became surprised. So because Kṛṣṇa is God, He can understand everyone's language. That is God.

Hayagrīva: Oh, even during his day Descartes was attacked on this…

Prabhupāda: That, that, that qualification is described in the, our Science of Devotion. What is that?

Hari-śauri: Nectar of Devotion.

Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion. Vāvadūka. This qualification is called vāvadūka. He can understand everyone's language. Just like a human being, if he understands many languages he is called linguist. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's another title is Vāvadūka. That means he understands everyone's language, even the birds, beasts. That is vāvadūka.

Hayagrīva: So that's the end of Descartes. (end)

PASCAL.HAY

Blaise Pascal

Hayagrīva: This is a section, a continuation of Pascal, Blaise Pascal. P-A-S-C-A-L. Pascal saw man situated in the universe between two extremes-between the abyss of infinity and the abyss of nothingness. Man has a body like the animals and an intellect like the angels or demigods. As such, he is neither a demigod nor an animal but somewhere between the two. Due to this situation, man is intelligent enough to know that he is in a miserable situation. Nonetheless, he has a great desire to be happy and to rid himself of his misery. Pascal saw that all men complain and suffer regardless of the situation. According to him, man engages in all kinds of hobbies and games and diversions in order to divert himself from his misery. But ultimately nothing really helps. What man once possessed and now has lost is perfect happiness. Pascal believes that the emptiness felt by man can only be filled by God. Isn't…, is this the same as…

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā.

Hayagrīva: Bhagavad-gītā (laughs).

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpyaiva [Bg. 16.20]. Because he does not get under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, so life after life he is trying to be happy and he is becoming baffled. He is manufacturing new way of sporting-sometimes diving in the water, sometimes flying in the air. So this sporting, as soon as, according to his desire, God is supplying, "All right, you want to fly, you become a bird. You want to dive in the water, all right, you become a fish, big fish." So God is giving you and trying to see whether giving up all this nonsense plan he comes to God and surrenders unto Him: "Sir, I have, I have tried all my plan; I could not become happy. Now, my Lord, you say that 'You give up all this nonsense business, you surrender unto Me, I will make you happy.' " Then he becomes happy. For this message, God comes. Because this rascal will not do according to the desire of God; therefore God comes personally and teaches him-as Lord Rāmacandra, as Lord Kṛṣṇa, as Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He, They, He gives the same instruction, that "You surrender unto Me and act according to My instruction; you will be happy." But he will not do that.

Hayagrīva: Whereas Descartes stressed reason, Pascal says that the principles that are understood by the heart are absolutely certain and that they are certainly adequate to overcome all skepticism or doubt in God. Is this something like the Supersoul speaking in the heart? Or how can one be certain that it is the Supersoul?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is speaking. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te: "I give him intelligence by which he can always live with Me," upayānti. He is living along with… Every living entity is living with God. But out of his ignorance, he does not know. So what for the other bird is there? What He is doing? And He is living as witness. He is friend, that "What this nonsense is doing? He will suffer." So He is finding out the opportunity how he will take instruction from the other bird, God. And He gives instruction. But to whom? When he surrenders, and he is engaged in this service, then He gives him instruction. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi [Bg. 10.10]. He gives. God is giving intelligence to everyone, but the nondevotee, he is not surrendered; he will not accept. The same example, when the thief goes to steal, God gives him that "Don't do this. You will suffer," and he knows that, that God says, He is speaking that "Don't do this," but still he does. So he suffers. But if he can purify and acts according to the instruction of God, then he is perfect. That is the difference between demon and devotee. Devotee strictly follows the order of God; he is happy. And demon, he also knows what is God's desire; he disobeys, he acts according to his whim, he suffers. So God is giving instruction. There is no doubt about it. Externally He is giving instructions through His agent, spiritual master, through books; and internally as consciousness, conscience. He is giving, always, but the rascal will not accept. Then he must suffer. What can be done?

Hayagrīva: Pascal believed in the doctrine of original sin. That doctrine holds that at one time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other, and that fall from grace accounts for his present position between the demigods and the beasts. In other words, that original sin accounts for man's engagement, or encagement, in matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is our…

Hayagrīva: What was this original sin?

Prabhupāda: To disobey the order of Kṛṣṇa, or not to serve Kṛṣṇa. Just like some servant, he tries that "Why I am serving this master? Why not become a master." The, sometimes psychologically it comes. A man is working in the office, he is seeing the managing director is sitting and is taking all the money, and sometimes the worker… Just like a capitalist and the worker. Why it is Communist movement? That they are thinking that "We are working, and the capitalist is taking the money." So they revolt, they make strike, and they form a society that "We have the…, we must have this money." That is communism. So similarly, when the living entity-he is eternally part and parcel of God; to serve God, that is his real position-but when he thinks that "Why I shall serve God? I shall enjoy myself," that is the beginning of falldown. So what is your question? When the… This was your question, that "When the sinful life begins?"

Hayagrīva: Oh, what was, what was this original sin?

Prabhupāda: This is the original sin. When he thought of not to serve God but to become God, that is the original. Just like the Māyāvādīs, they have knowledge, they have philosophy, everything, but still trying to become God, which is impossible. Then there is no meaning of God. If simply by meditation and by some material efforts one can become God, then where is the use of God? You cannot become God. But artificially you can try to become God, and that artificial way of becoming God is the beginning of sinful life.

Hayagrīva: He believed that it is impossible…, it is impossible for man to understand the universe or his position in the universe. In the material world we cannot look for certainty or stability because our reasoning powers, our reason, is always being deceived. Consequently, man must surrender to the dictates of his heart and to God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our position. We, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that you act according to the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa. We are not depending on heart, because a heart, the dictation is coming, but it is not appreciated by the demons, nondevotee. Therefore direct, direct instruction is the Bhagavad-gītā, and it is explained by His devotee. So in this way, if we take right from God and His representative. Not that (indistinct). So therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching or preaching God consciousness so that people may take instruction of this Bhagavad-gītā as it is and act accordingly and be happy. That is our program. We do not manufacture any ideas. The ideas are already there. Simply we are preaching. If one is intelligent, fortunate, he will take it and be happy.

Hayagrīva: Of all things in the world, Pascal considered this to be the strangest. He says, "A man spends many days and nights in rage and despair over the loss of his job or for some imaginary insult to his honor, yet he does not consider with anxiety and emotion that he will lose everything by death. It is a monstrous thing to see in the same heart and at the same time this sensibility to trifles and this strange insensibility to the greatest objects-death. It is an incomprehensible enchantment and a supernatural slumber, which indicates as its cause an all-powerful force," such as māyā.

Prabhupāda: This is, this is instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, that one who does not believe in God or disobeys the orders of God, a day will come when God will come as death, and his all power, all false prestige, all imagination, all plans will be all broken. Then after that, according to the transmigration of the soul, that person, because he did not obey the orders of God, he acted like animals, he gets the body of an animal. This is transmigration. And he suffers.

Hayagrīva: He also writes, "If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Because religion means the orders given by God. So if we faithfully carry out the orders of God, then that is religion. But if we don't carry out the orders of God, this is cheating religion. That is not religion. That is condemned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That cheating religion are kicked out from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So any religious system which has no conception of God and does everything, every year changes by resolution of the priests, that "Now this is all right," against religious principles-that is a farce. That is not religion.

Hayagrīva: This is by way of saying that we should not accept our faith blindly, but at the same time we should not expect everything to be comprehensible to our understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That just like the father and the child. The father says, "You do this." So that is all-comprehensive. The father's idea is complete; it is good for the son. But the son says, "No. I want to act in this way." That is his folly. Similarly, what God says, that is religion, and… So there is no question of blind following. If you know, "Here is God. He is all-perfect, and whatever He is saying, that is all-perfect. Let me accept it," then you are gainer. And if apply your reasoning and change it according to your whims, then you suffer.

Hayagrīva: He also writes, "The greatness of man is great in that he knows himself to be miserable. A tree does not know itself to be miserable. These miseries prove man's greatness. They are the miseries of a great lord, a deposed king."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The…, that is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that you are trying to live long, so does the tree not live longer than you? If you are trying by scientific method how to live more than hundred years or (indistinct), but the tree is living for ten thousands of years. Does it mean this is perfection of life, to live long? That is not perfection of life. So in this way, analyze all other living condition. When you come to God consciousness, that living condition is perfect, because by God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness you understand God-how to behave with Him; what is your relationship with God-then you become perfect and you go to the kingdom of God and live there eternally.

Hayagrīva: Descartes was more in the jñānī tradition, and Pascal more in the bhakti tradition. He says, "Employ the rule of love not of intellect," and for Pascal, knowledge can only be attained by curbing the passions, submitting to God, and accepting the revelation of God. And he was also Christian. And he said "There is no happiness apart from religion."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say the same thing, that without religion one is animal. Because the animal society there is no church, there is no religion, there is no discussion about God. So if the human society, as they are doing now, that they are denying discussion about God even in the schools and colleges, so it is the most degraded form of society, and the consequence is there: they are all suffering.

Hayagrīva: Although he was considered a great philosopher, he concluded that philosophy in itself only leads to skepticism, that faith is needed, and he always added here, "God."

Prabhupāda: Philosophy means, real philosophy means to understand the truth. That is philosophy. So without understanding about the truth, if he encourages untruth… Just like some philosophers are philosophizing on sex life. So the people are becoming degraded. So what is philosophy in sex life, that is an (indistinct). It is there in animal and man also. So sex life is not actual life; it is a symptom of life only. So if we stress on this point only, that is not philosophy. Philosophy means, as it is stated, tattva jñānārthaṁ darśanam. To find out the Absolute Truth, tattva, that is philosophy. And tattva means the spirit soul or the spiritual atmosphere. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So those who are discussing about Brahman or Paramātmā, Supersoul, or Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are real philosopher because they are trying to find out the Absolute Truth, and others are bogus.

Hayagrīva: That's, that's all.

Prabhupāda: That's all. (end)

SPINOZA.HAY

Benedict Spinoza

Hayagrīva: Spinoza. Spinoza says that "The infinite God must possess infinite attributes." He is saying that God, being the basis of all existence, cannot be described in a material way. He is a pantheist in the sense that he believes in the one substance. However, he believes that God has infinite divine attributes, and only two of these attributes fall within the realm of human experience, and these are thought and extension, or mind and matter.

Prabhupāda: So, so far God is concerned, and undoubtedly He is unlimited and His qualities are unlimited. So His one of the most important quality is called Bhakta-vatsala. He is very much dear to His devotee, Bhakta-vatsala. So He has unlimited devotees and unlimited dealings with them; therefore He is unlimitedly expanded. That is pantheism. But it does not mean because He is unlimitedly expanded, His personality is lost. He is person always, even though He is unlimitedly expanded. That is the Vedic version: pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. He is complete, and if another complete form expands from Him, still He remains complete. He is not lost. The material conception is if one unit, if something is taken from it, then it becomes less of that thing. But God is so complete that you can go on taking from Him unlimitedly, still He remains unlimited. That is pantheist. I think they are impersonalist.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Spinoza is impersonal. He asserts that God cannot be a remote cause of the creation. He says that the creation flows from God in the same way that conclusions flow from principles in mathematics. God is free to create, but He is the eminent cause. That is to say, the creation is an extension of Himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, He creates by His energy. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ

khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca

bhinnā me prakṛtiḥ aṣṭadhā

[Bg. 7.4]

These eight kinds of material elements-earth, water, air, fire, sky, mind, intelligence and ego-they are material energies, and this material world is made of these material elements. So because it is made of God's energy, therefore it is called created by God. But this is creation of His energy. Prakṛtiḥ pradhāna, upadhāna, pradhāna. The ingredients are coming from Him, and prakṛtiḥ, nature, creates. This is the idea of creation. So God is a remote cause and a eminent cause also, because these elements, they are God's energy. So the eminent cause is the energy. Therefore it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "By Me, everything is expanding." So when He says "By Me," then He is the eminent cause. There are two causes: remote and eminent.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So both, He is remote cause and eminent cause.

Hayagrīva: Both remote and eminent.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says that each soul coincides with its body. That is to say, the soul acquires a body befitting it…

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: …a soul acquires a body befitting it. A soul can progress beyond bodies to come to know spiritual truths by turning toward God rather than the material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Or, as Spinoza would put it, by turning toward God's extensions. He calls them God's extensions.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: Because he is pantheistic.

Prabhupāda: This is…, expansion also we accept. What is called, there is technical name, pracāra (?). Expansion, that is stated in Bhāgavatam, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "By Me everything is expanded." This very word is used. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. So expansion is also God, but at the same time in expansion there is no God. "No God" means not in person. The expansion is imperson, but expansion is from the person. Just as a government, this is impersonal, but the governor is person. So government means under the control of the governor. So impersonal expansion of God is controlled by the personal God. This is like pantheism. And pantheism, so I think that because everything is God, that God has no personal existence. Is it not?

Hayagrīva: Yes. Pantheists would say that God is eminent in everything.

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Hayagrīva: But has no personal or remote…

Prabhupāda: So that is material thought. That is material thought, because the paper in your hand, if it is made into pieces and thrown, expanding, then the original paper is lost. So this is material conception. But the spiritual conception is that He may expand Himself unlimitedly; still, He remains in His own person.

Hayagrīva: He believed that as long as man is composed of body and soul, he will be under the mode of passion, and as long as the soul is confined to the body, the living entity will necessarily be attached to the physical world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We call it māyā. So that can… The body and soul in the material world is there, and therefore the aim of life is how to separate this soul from material body and remain in his original, spiritual form. That is the whole ideal objective for human life, because as long as he remains attached to the body, and… But he has to change the body. That is our practical experience also. We are changing always the body, one after another, and if we give up our attachment for this body, then we are liberated. That is called mukti, to remain in a spiritual body. That is possible only by always thinking of God. That is meditation. That is actual meditation. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. To become Kṛṣṇa's devotee, to become worshiper of Kṛṣṇa, and always offering obeisances: "My Lord, I am Your eternal servant. Kindly keep me engaged in Your service"-that much prayer; nothing more. Then he remains always in… [break]

Hayagrīva: Continuation of Spinoza. Spinoza considered good and evil to relate only to man. They have no basis in God, who is beyond good and evil.

Prabhupāda: Right. But as everything is God, as Spinoza thinks that his… What is his position of bad? What is his conception?

Hayagrīva: That God is beyond good and…

Prabhupāda: God is beyond, but what is his position of evil? Evil is there, but he said that God has no evil. Then wherefrom the evil comes?

Hayagrīva: Seems inconsistent.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He writes…

Prabhupāda: We, we say that God… Good and evil, they are also emanation from God. Evil is the back side and good is the front side.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "He who knows himself and knows his affections clearly and distinctly, and that with the accompaniment of the idea of God is joyous, for he knows and loves God. Thus through knowledge of the self one can come to know something of God, and in this way man can be happy and love God." But there is no mention here of service.

Prabhupāda: Love means service. Just like mother loves the child, she gives, she gives service. The father loves the child, she gives the service, he gives the service. So,

dadāti pratigṛhṇāti

guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati

bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva

ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam

Love means to give and to accept some gift from the lover, dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, to feed him and to take foodstuff from him, to disclose his mind to him and understand his mind also. These six reciprocation of dealings is love. So love includes service.

Hayagrīva: Spinoza's God is clearly not a personal God. Spinoza is an impersonalist, and his love for God is more intellectual or philosophical than theistic or religious. Being an impersonalist, Spinoza believed in the identity of the individual soul with God. This is not to say that he believed that the individual soul is infinite, but that it is not distinct from God. He writes, "Thus that love of the soul is a part of the infinite love with which God loves Himself." He sees the soul's intellectual love of God and God's love for the individual soul, which is within man, to be one and the same love.

Prabhupāda: Love is five kinds of love: śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vatsalya, mādhurya. The beginning of love is awe and adoration: "Oh, God is so great. God is everything." When he understands God's potency, unlimitedness, the soul adores Him. That adoration is also love. When that adoration is further advanced, then he serves God as master and servant. When the service is more intimate, then friend to friend-as one friend renders service to other friend, the other friend renders to other friend, like that, reciprocal. Then further expanded, the love is turned into paternal love, and further expanded it is expanding into conjugal love. So there are different stages of love. So Spinoza is touching only the beginning of love, simply adoring, appreciating God's power, expansion, that much. But when this love of adoration expands, that is called dasya-rasa, sākhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa, madhurya-rasa. So he is on the beginning state of loving God. He has not advanced farther.

Hayagrīva: It, it seems that he believes in the Paramātmā present within all beings but does not believe in the jīva along with Paramātmā. Is this a typical impersonalist position?

Prabhupāda: That means he does not know what is love. If God loves the living entity, then He must be well-wisher, friend of the living entity. And because God expands Himself unlimitedly, therefore He lives with the living entity, and living entities are unlimited. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. In Upaniṣads also it is confirmed that two birds are sitting on tree; one is eating the fruit and the other is simply witness. So this witnessing bird is God; therefore Paramātmā and jīvātmā live together. And there are many other places-sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg. 15.15]. He reminds the living entity that "Unless Paramātmā is there, I forget everything of my past life." But because I wanted to enjoy something in my past life, God gives him the opportunity and reminds him, "Now you wanted this. Here is the opportunity. You do it." So Paramātmā is always with the jīva.

Hayagrīva: He does not believe that God has a body because by body, he says, we understand a certain quantity possessing life, breadth and depth, limited by some fixed form, and that to attribute these to God, a being absolutely infinite, is the greatest absurdity.

Prabhupāda: No. God has body, but not this material body. The material body is limited. That does not mean… This is imperfect knowledge of the spiritual quality. God has got body. That is confirmed in Vedic literature, sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means body, a form. But His form is eternal. He is all-aware, sat-cit, and He is always blissful. So this body is neither eternal nor blissful nor all-awareness. Therefore this body is different from God's body. But God has got a body which is different in quality. That is spiritual body.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "God is free from passions, nor is He affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow. Properly speaking, God loves no one and hates no one, for God is not affected with any emotion of joy or sorrow, and consequently he neither loves nor hates anyone."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is called ātmā-pama (?). He doesn't require anything from anyone. He is complete. But if anyone offers Him something out of love, it is his benefit who is offering something to God. God doesn't require anything. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "A devotee, out of his love, even he offers Me a little leaf, little water, little flower," tad aham aśnāmi, "I eat that." So God is fully satisfied in Himself. Why He desires a patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam from a devotee? It is not for His benefit. But if he begins to offer something out of love, then his love begins with God. He gives him the chance. So offering to God does not mean God is benefited. It is benefit of the devotee that he begins to offer, and if he gradually develops that love, then his life is successful. So it is a chance. God does not require anything, but the giver, whatever he, he gives to God, it is for his own benefit. Just like the example is given, the…, if your face is decorated, then the reflection of the face in the mirror is automatically decorated. So we are reflection of God. If God is decorated then we become decorated. That is the idea.

Hayagrīva: So when Kṛṣṇa destroys demons, He does so without passion or without hatred?

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. It is the benefit of the demon.

Hayagrīva: Spinoza writes, "No sorrow can exist with the accompanying idea of God. No one can hate God."

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is sac-cid-ānanda. That is the description of Vedic literature, ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt, by nature is always full of pleasure. He is the source of pleasure. We therefore see Kṛṣṇa's picture when He is dancing with the gopīs, He looks very pleasing, and when He is killing some demon He looks very pleasing. Not that He is morose that His is killing, because you know that He is not killing; He is giving him salvation.

Hayagrīva: Well, he says no one can hate God, but what about Kaṁsa and others?

Prabhupāda: That is demonic. Naturally one is in love with God. He should love God. But when he is in māyā he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks himself as separate from God. Instead of loving Him, he thinks that God is hindrance, my competitor of sense gratification, therefore avoid God, kill God, I become absolute sense gratifier. Anyone who hates God means he is a demon.

Hayagrīva: Spinoza writes, "The more we understand individual objects, the more we understand God." Is this the proper process? Wouldn't you say that the more we understand God the more we understand individual objects? Which is uh…

Prabhupāda: Anything you take, that is perfection of knowledge in God. Which thing is not related with God? Everything is related with God. In the material world anything you will take it is made of the five elements, but these five elements, they are expansion of God's energy. So intelligent person sees in everything with reference to God's expansion of energy. That is the position of devotee. He does not think anything separate from God. And as he is lover of God, devotee of God, he wants to engage everything, because if everything is God's property, that should be used for God's benefit. This is devotee's conception. The asuras, they have no conception of God. Neither they are obedient to God, neither lover of God. He thinks the material world is for his enjoyment. He cannot see the material world is expansion of God's energy. Therefore anyone who uses the material product for his personal benefit, he is called a thief. Just like I have created something. If somebody use up that something and does not think of the proprietor, he is a thief. Thief means, in our childhood we got a definition of thief, that anything taken without the permission the property is theft. That is very nice. So anything in this world has reference to the expansion of energy of God. So if you do not take everything as prasādam, then you are thief and you are punishable. A thief is always punished. So therefore those who are enjoying things without reference to the God, they are all demons and they are punishable. They are thieves.

Hayagrīva: That's all on Spinoza. (end)

LEIBNITZ.HAY

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz

Hayagrīva: And this is Leibnitz, Leibnitz.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the relation between the soul and the body, Leibnitz writes, "In so far as the soul has perfection and distinct thoughts, God has accommodated the body to the soul and has arranged beforehand that the body is impelled to execute its orders," the orders of the soul.

Prabhupāda: Who, who orders?

Hayagrīva: "God has accommodated the body to the soul and has arranged before…"

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

[Bg. 18.61]

That the body is a machine. The soul wanted to walk or move in a certain specific way, and He has given these instructions. Just like if you want to go by car, the car is there; if you want to go by bus, the bus is there; if you want to go by railway, the railway is there; if you want to fly by airship, the airship is there. Similarly, the soul is desiring in a particular way, and God is supplying through His material agent a…, that particular type of body. Therefore the bird is flying, the fish is within the water, and the uncivilized men or animals within the forest and civilized men in the city. In this way different, 8,400,000's of different bodies are there according to the desire of the soul, and the machine of the body is supplied by nature under the order of God. This is explained.

Hayagrīva: Oh, he says insofar as the soul is perfect it controls the body, but insofar as the soul is imperfect or its perceptions are confused, the soul is slaved by the passions arising out of corporeal representations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: In other words, uh…

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā very nicely, that the soul is in this material world, and he is influenced by the three modes of material nature. So according to his position under the influence of three different kinds of modes, he is getting this body. It is on account of his free will. Just like if he wants to eat anything and everything up to stool, then he is given the body of a pig. If he wants to eat direct blood, sucking, then he gets the body of a tiger. And if he wants to eat first-class nutritious food, then he is given the body of a brāhmaṇa. In this way we are getting different types of bodies according to our desire. We are creating different types of desires, that "We shall be happy in this way, we shall be happy in this way." Just like we see practically, somebody is going to the restaurant, he thinks, "By eating here in restaurant I shall be happy." And somebody is going to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple, he is thinking that "I shall be happy by eating here." So Kṛṣṇa has given everyone the chance, but he is trying to be happy but he is not becoming happy, because he is misusing his intelligence, cent percent abiding by the orders of God; therefore he is suffering. As such, Kṛṣṇa comes personally and induces him that "You don't desire in this way. You give up all this material desire. You simply desire to act according My order, you surrender unto Me, and I will give you all happiness."

Hayagrīva: Leibnitz pictures a kind of city of God. He writes, "God is the monarch of the most perfect republic composed of all the spirits, and the happiness of this city of God is His principal purpose. The primary purpose in the moral world, or the city of God, which constitutes the noblest part of the universe, ought to be to extend the greatest happiness possible."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We agree to that. If everyone becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and acts according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then this hell, hellish world, becomes the city of God.

Hayagrīva: He says we must… "Therefore we must not doubt that God has so ordained everything that spirits not only shall live forever, because this is unavoidable, but that they shall also preserve forever their moral quality so that His city may never lose a person."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Vaikuṇṭha conception, yaj jñātvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam, "That is My specific place, where going nobody returns back to this miserable material world." These ideas are taken from Vedic literature, that's all. They are not new. It is known already to the Vedic students. Everyone has taken from Vedas, and they have presented their own way.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "The soul changes its body only gradually and by degrees, so that it is never deprived of all its organs at once. There is often a metamorphosis in animals, but never metempsychosis or transmigration of souls."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: That is he does not believe that the souls in animals transmigrate at death from one body to another.

Prabhupāda: Then what is his understanding of the soul?

Hayagrīva: He says there are no entirely separate souls without bodies.

Prabhupāda: That is rascal. That means he is imperfect. How he can say so when we practically see that the soul is changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood? How he can say like that? He is transmigrating. That is, every day we have experience. How he can deny that? Otherwise, if he, if the soul does not transmigrate, then how the child becomes a young man? The body is different. The, this is simple understanding, that he has changed the body. The body changes and the soul remains eternal.

Hayagrīva: He further writes on this… He says, "There is strictly speaking neither absolute birth nor complete death consisting in the separation of the soul from the body. What we call birth is development or growth, as what we call death is envelopment and diminution."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is transmigration. That is transmigration. He hasn't…, he is not dead, but he has developed into another body. That is transmigration. Then why does he deny that?

Hayagrīva: So he says, in other words, as soon as the human soul leaves the body, it must immediately…

Prabhupāda: Enters another body.

Hayagrīva: …enter another.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But not nec…, but not in the case of ghosts.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: With the exception of…

Prabhupāda: Ghost, he is already in the body.

Hayagrīva: Oh, uh huh, the subtle body.

Prabhupāda: The subtle body.

Hayagrīva: He further writes, "God alone is wholly without body."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no material body. He does not transmigrate.

Hayagrīva: He didn't…

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ: [Bg. 9.11] "The rascals, they think, because I am just like a human being, they think I am another human being." He is not human being; He is the Supreme Person. And when He said that "I remember," this is also another proof, that "I spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago." Because He remembers, that means He does not change His body. Just like we can remember of this body so many things, so long as…, but we do not remember what I was in the past life because the body has changed. And Kṛṣṇa remembers because His body has not changed. He is in the same body.

Hayagrīva: Leibnitz did not believe that the city of God, what he called the city of God, is divorced from the natural world. Rather, it is a moral world within the natural world. He writes, "The assembling of all spirits must compose the city of God. That is the most perfect state possible and of the most perfect of monarchs," meaning God. "This city of God, this truly universal monarchy, is a moral world within the natural world and the highest and most divine of the works of God."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We can construct such city immediately if the League of Nation-they are trying to be united-they come to their right sense, that this planet does not belong to any particular nation; it belongs to God. This simple fact, if they accept and cultivate on this point, then immediately the whole world will be the city of God. But they will not do this. They have gone to the United Nation to settle up all problems of the world, but they keep themselves in the dog's mentality: "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian." But he is not. But if they give up this designation, that "I am American," "Indian" or "Hindu" or "Muslim," "Christian…" We are all part and parcel of God, and the whole planet belongs to God. We are His sons, and we can live peacefully as the sons of father. Father is supplying everything, so we can utilize. Now they, in some country, just like in Australia or New Zealand we find enough cows to supply milk, and in India practically there is no milk. So if the United Nations gives this, accepts this version, that everything belongs to God, so where is the scarcity? It may be in one place one thing is in scarcity, but other place it is enough. So where it is enough, that can be distributed where there is need. Then immediately it becomes city of God. If anyone abides by the order of God and everything produced is divided among the sons of God, then where is the question of scarcity? There is…, there cannot be any scarcity. But they have no reason. They are denying the actual fact that everything belongs to God. It is common sense. Such a vast ocean, who has created this? Has any nation has created, or any individual person has created? So to whom belongs this ocean? What will be the answer? Huh? What will be the answer? If I question that "Shall we dig a little ditch and there is water. We fill up." So such a big ditch, who has done it? Where is the question that there is no God? Somebody has done. That is common sense. And who has done it not only this one ocean-millions of oceans are floating in the sky-who has done it? Who has created? Huh? What will be the answer? So they, this modern so-called civilization, they have lost their common sense. They want to remain in animal consciousness; therefore they are suffering. (end)

LOCKE.HAY

John Locke

Hayagrīva: And John Locke, Locke is the…, is most famous for his conception of tabula rasa, or blank slate, that a child is born with no innate ideas. He states that "If there are innate or inborn ideas, all men would have them." That is to say, there would be universal consent. He writes, "This argument of universal consent, which is made use of to prove innate principles, seems to me a demonstration that there are none such because there are none to which all mankind give a universal consent." So it cannot be argued that all people have an innate or inborn idea of God since there is no universal consent on this subject. Well, do innate ideas have to be universal? Might not some living entities have some innate ideas and other living entities have others? Why does an innate idea have to be universal and apply to everyone?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Innate idea is that there is somebody. That is developed consciousness. The animals, they cannot think, on account of nondeveloped consciousness, but even in human society, uncivilized society, they have got the innate idea of some superior form. When there is lightning, they offer obeisances. When they see big ocean, they offer obeisances, something big. So that innate idea is universal, to offer obeisances to something wonderful. But this innate idea of accepting something supreme and offering respect is not developed in the animal. So this innate idea is there. When it is not developed, it is animal, and when it is developed, then it is human being. And a perfect human being is he, when he has developed this innate idea to the fullest stage. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: Would it not be better to say that the living entity is born with certain tendencies, rather than innate ideas, which carry over from a previous life?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And that he needs only meet with some stimulus in order for these tendencies to be manifest?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when the, a dog, cat, is born it has no eyes, and it searches out the nipples of the mother. So although his eyes are all closed-you have seen the dogs-but because in his previous life as dog he had the experience where to find out the food, so even though it cannot see, it traces out where is the food. That is past experience and that is the proof of the continuation of the soul eternally. Just like I am living in this room and, say, for ten years I am absent from this room, but after ten years when I come here, immediately I remember where is the toilet, where is my sitting place, everything. So that remembrance comes from the last visit. So a living entity is passing through different species of form. That is his material life. So in some previous life, millions of years, when he was a dog, he knew where to find out his food, so immediately in the dog's body again, he remembers. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of John Locke. Now you said that from your very birth you knew that Kṛṣṇa was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now does this mean that from your very birth you were acquainted with the name Kṛṣṇa, or didn't your father have to at least say the word once? Now Locke would argue that the idea of Kṛṣṇa is not an innate idea because it is not universally assented to.

Prabhupāda: Universally…?

Hayagrīva: Universally, not everyone acknowledges that Kṛṣṇa is God, so he would say that idea is not inborn in the mind.

Prabhupāda: No. In the material world they have got different ideas. That undeveloped mind has got different ideas, but developed, what is called, idea or conception, perfect conception is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if one remembers Kṛṣṇa consciousness after his birth, that means he had previously cultivated. There is a verse, you can find out: ataḥ. Find that.

Devotee: Gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The word begins ataḥ paurva-dehikam. You can stop the machine and find it. [break] You can record it. Tatra taṁ paurva-dehikam buddhi-saṁyogam. Yes, that is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness, culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is never lost. It goes on, unless it is perfect. Therefore it is stated, sv-alpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Even little acting on Kṛṣṇa consciousness can save one from the greatest danger-as it was done by Ajamila. He cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the beginning of his life, then he fell down, he became the greatest debauch. But at the end of life again he remembered Nārāyaṇa and he got salvation. Tatra taṁ buddhi-saṁyogam [Bg. 6.43]. Read Bhagavad-gītā carefully. All answers are there. This philosopher cannot go beyond Bhagavad-gītā.

Hayagrīva: Some people have been said to have remembered events in their previous lives. How are these reminiscences or ideas different from innate ideas? How is it possible for one to recall events?

Prabhupāda: Innate idea is in everyone, that is, "God is great, and I am," what is called, "controlled." That innate idea is everywhere. But sometimes, out of ignorance one tries to become God. That is not possible. That is māyā, and he suffers from this. Artificially trying to become God, that is simply waste of time. It will never become possible. That is called māyā. Otherwise, innate idea is that he is servant and God is great. That is innate idea.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "The knowledge of our own being we have by intuition. The existence of a God, reason dearly makes known to us. We have a more certain knowledge of the existence of a God than of anything our senses can discover." Now how is this? If this is the case, how is it that some men have no conception of God?

Prabhupāda: He has conception of God, practically, but because under the spell of māyā he has become foolish, he tries to cover that conception, that somebody is there. How any sane man can deny that some superior power is there who has created this vast ocean, vast land, vast sky? How one sane man can avoid this conception? Nobody can avoid, but artificially, foolishly, he tries to avoid. Atheism. But that will not endure, that will not stay. His foolishness will be exposed. So this is innate idea, but the atheist class, demon class, they want to cover this innate idea artificially.

Hayagrīva: And Locke argues on behalf of private property given to man by God. That is to say a man may have a certain stewardship over a certain amount of property. Is this in compliance with the Īśopaniṣadic version?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: [Īśo mantra 1] everything belongs to God. Just like the father has got many sons and the father is the proprietor of the house. He gives one son, "This is your room," the other son, "This is your room." So the obedient son is satisfied what the father allows to him. Others, those who are not obedient, they want to disturb other brother that "This room also belongs to me." That creates chaos and confusion in the world. The United Nations, they have created a society for unity of the nations, but actually that is not unity. That is another way of encroaching upon others' property. Therefore there is no peace, unless they accept God is the Supreme proprietor. And we must be satisfied with the allotment God has given to us. Then there is no trouble. But the trouble is that we are not satisfied with the allotment given to us. That allotment can be understood by language or similar culture. So why one should encroach upon others' property which is allotted by God? That creates disturbance. So this so-called modern civilized man, first of all they create disturbances, and then they want to make some adjustment. Of course, for the good of a certain people, if somebody encroaches… But they do not know what is good. They encroach upon others' property for their personal sense gratification. Otherwise, if for the good of the local people somebody, some (indistinct), just like the Aryans, they conquered over many islands or places, but that was for the good of them. Just like the Pāṇḍavas, they also ruled over, but the Pāṇḍavas were God conscious devotees and they made everyone enlightened in God consciousness. That kind of encroachment. Just like Lord Rāmacandra went to Ceylon, or Lanka, and conquered over it, because Rāvaṇa was a demon. So He conquered, Lord Rāmacandra conquered over the property of Rāvaṇa, and gave it to Vibhīṣaṇa, but He did not take anything. Just like Kṛṣṇa conducted, managed this Kurukṣetra war personally, but the kingdom was given to Yudhiṣṭhira. He did not encroach. So this kind of encroachment is all right, that everyone should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone should be highly elevated in spiritual life. For spreading this civilization, encroaching on others' property is quite fit. But if one encroaches upon others' property for self-aggrandizement, for stealing for his own sense gratification, that is sinful.

Hayagrīva: So much for Locke.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That's all. (end)

BERKELEY.HAY

George Berkeley

Hayagrīva: Berkeley. Berkeley-very brief section on Berkeley. Berkeley seems to be arguing against objective reality. In other words, three men standing in a field looking at a tree could all have a different impression or idea of the tree, or at least according to his argument. The problem is, although there are three impressions of the tree, each differing from one another, there is no tree as such. Now, how does the tree as such exist? In the mind of God? Is it possible for a conditioned living entity to perceive the suchness or essence of anything?

Prabhupāda: Everything means God, expansion of God's energy. So how tree or anything can be without reference to God? We see that the earthen pot is on the ground, on the, what is called, ground?

Hayagrīva: The what?

Prabhupāda: Earthen pot, pot, pots made of earth.

Hayagrīva: Earthen pots, pot that's made of earth.

Prabhupāda: So it is staying on earth, so the earthen pot is not different from the earth. So everything is expansion of God's energy. How we can avoid God with reference to anything that we see? There cannot be anything independent of God. The example is there: the earthen pot, as soon as you see, we remember the potter, that "Who has made?" and the wheel of the potter. So a… God is the original creator, He is the ingredient, and He is the category also, and He is the original substance. That is the conception, Vedic conception of God. He is everything. That is nondual conception. And if you make anything separate from God, then how you can say sarvaṁ khalu idaṁ brahma, "Everything is Brahman"? Then if you say everything is God, at the same time you separate something from God, so that is, what is called, contradiction. Our conception is, "Yes, actually everything has reference to the God, so everything is God's property. It should be utilized for God's service." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Hayagrīva: In his last dialogue, Berkeley writes, "The apprehension of a distant Deity naturally disposes men to be negligent of their moral actions, which they would be more cautious of in case they thought Him"-that is God-"immediately present."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. We say, the Vedic śāstra says, that God is everywhere; He is not distant. In the Kuntī's prayer it is said, "God is distant and nearest also." So nearest, by God's paramātmā feature, He is living in everyone's heart, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe… [Bg. 18.61]. So He is within our heart; how He can be distant? But at the same time He is in His personal feature, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana, which, beyond, far, far beyond this material existence. So that is God's all-pervasive equality, that although He is far, far away, still He is near, nearest. The crude example is there that the heater, the original source of heat and light, is far, far away, ninety-three millions miles according to the modern scientist calculation, the sun. But still the light is in my room. So God is both far away and also within my heart. So one who is expert to see God, he sees both way. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto [Bs. 5.37]. Although He is living in His own abode eternally, and enjoying with His associates, still He is present everywhere. That is God.

Hayagrīva: Well, in what way is God concerned with the moral or immoral actions of man? Is God indifferent to them, or has He simply set the laws of nature in motion and allowed men to follow their own course and reap the fruit of their own karma?

Prabhupāda: The nature's course is that because we have disobeyed God, therefore we are thrown into this material world under the supervision of the material nature to correct him. So, so long he is in the material world, there is distinction between moral and immoral. Although both of them are material, it has, actually has no meaning, moral or immoral. But in the material world that conception is there, moral or immoral. But when one is in the spiritual world, there is no such thing as immoral; everything is moral. Just like gopīs, they were others' wives, but they were coming to Kṛṣṇa in dead of night. That is immoral. But because they are coming to Kṛṣṇa, it is not immoral. Therefore in the spiritual world there is no such thing as moral or immoral. Everything is moral. In the material world there must be moral and immoral; otherwise this material transaction cannot go properly.

Hayagrīva: So much for Berkeley. (end)

HUME.HAY

David Hume

Hayagrīva: These are notations on David Hume. Abstract objects, relations, space, matter and time are all considered by Hume to be mind-dependent perceptions. In other words, perceptions are all there is. He rejects revealed religion, that is, the religion of the śāstras, and embraces natural religion, that is, a religion wherein the existence of God can be proved or even shown to be probable by argument and reason. According to Hume we really know nothing of God, for at the most we can only know are peoples' ideas of God, and these are but perceptions. It would thus seem that it is impossible to know God according to Hume's natural religion because the senses are admittedly imperfect, and these are the only instruments of certainty Hume admits in his natural religion.

Prabhupāda: What is that natural religion?

Hayagrīva: Well, he says the self is nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions which succeed each other with inconceivable rapidity and are in perpetual flux and movement. So he says there's nothing but perception. He rejects revealed scriptures as such, but he says, "The heavens and the earth join in the same testimony. The whole course of nature raises one hymn to the praises of its creator. I have found a Deity and here I stop my inquiry. Let those go further who are wiser or more enterprising."

Prabhupāda: First point is that our senses are imperfect. That is admitted. And God is perception. But whether he believes actually in the existence of God?

Hayagrīva: He believes in the existence of God.

Prabhupāda: And what is his perception of God? If he believes in God, then he must give some idea what is God.

Hayagrīva: He has no idea other than the fact that…

Prabhupāda: Anyway, if he believes in God, a fact, then instead of so-called perception, why not understand from God what He is?

Hayagrīva: Well, he, um…

Prabhupāda: Our senses are imperfect. We, we admit that there is God. Now, if our senses are imperfect, how we can imagine "God is like this," "God is like that"? That actually if God explains Himself, why should we not accept that?

Hayagrīva: In his, uh… Hume appears opposed to the search for God in the ideal world. He writes, "Why not stop at the material world? How can we satisfy ourselves without going on ad infinitum, forever. If the material world rests upon a similar ideal world, this ideal world must rest upon some other and so on, without end. It were better, therefore, never to look beyond the present material world.

Prabhupāda: Material world means full of miseries. Therefore those who are advanced, they are searching after another world where there is no misery. This is the idea. And this searching after happy world, that is permanent. Everyone is searching after that. That is not unnatural. But actually there is such world, and if there is, why should you not hanker after that world?

Hayagrīva: He appears opposed…

Prabhupāda: Two things: that this world is experienced, nobody is happy, unless he is an animal. Animal, they do not know what is happiness or distress. In any condition they remain satisfied. But a man, he feels pain. Just like our Hari-śauri was speaking that there were reports that because the children cry, sometimes parents kill them. This is the world. And actually there have been many cases. So from practical point of view, this world is not happy. That is a fact. Now if there is a happy world, why one should not try for that?

Hayagrīva: He says the sooner we arrive at that divine being-the sooner we arrive at God-so much the better.

Prabhupāda: We become God?

Hayagrīva: No. In the search for God…

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: …the sooner we find God, the better. He says when you go one step beyond the mundane system, you only excite an inquisitive humor, which it is impossible ever to satisfy.

Prabhupāda: What…, I do not follow what you mean. What is the meaning of this?

Hayagrīva: He appear… He is opposed to the search for God in the other world.

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot search out God in your present condition. You have got some glimpse of idea that there is God. What is that mean-"There is God, then you are advanced"? At least you are better than the atheist. But by speculation you cannot understand what is God. Revelation is there to fortunate person, one who is very seriously searching after God. God is within himself. He reveals. And the other process is that if you are searching after God, then you know it from the person who has already known God, or directly from God. So the Bhagavad-gītā is direct perception from God, so with our all reasons, all logic, if we try to understand Bhagavad-gītā, then we understand what is God.

Hayagrīva: Hume is a famous skeptic, and he would reject a revealed scripture. He looks toward science. He says all the new discoveries in astronomy…

Prabhupāda: Then if he is skeptic, that why one should believe his words and take his instruction? He is skeptic, so others skeptically reject his statement also. So there is no use of his talking.

Hayagrīva: Well, he felt that…

Prabhupāda: Now you said that he is skeptic.

Hayagrīva: Oh, yes. He felt…

Prabhupāda: So he is also skeptic. So why people should be induced to believe him and hear him? He is immediately rejected.

Hayagrīva: He felt that instead of basing belief in God…

Prabhupāda: No, he should not think, because nobody will take his instruction. He does not believe others, does not take others' statement-why his statement should be accepted?

Hayagrīva: Well, well he believes at least in the material senses.

Prabhupāda: Everyone believes that. Materially everyone believes. But if he says none of them are correct, so why he is so…, pose himself as correct? He is rejected immediately.

Hayagrīva: He says, "All the new discoveries in astronomy which prove the immense grandeur and magnificence of the works of nature are so many additional arguments for a Deity according to the true system of theism," that is his natural, what he calls natural religion. In this way Hume rejects the necessity or desirability of miracles as well as the conception of a God transcendental to his creation. He says it's not the being of God that is in question but God's nature. This nature cannot be ascertained through study of the universe itself. However, if the universe can only be studied by imperfect senses, what is the value of our conclusion? How can we ever come to know the nature of God?

Prabhupāda: Nature of God, it can be explained by God Himself. That is our Vedic process. We know who is God, and He explains, "My nature is this." Just like He says, "I am the greatest principle," mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more higher principle than Me." This is fact. If something is greater than God, then how one can become God? That is not possible. So greatest means He is great in everything. He is great in richness, He is great in reputation, He is great in influence, He is great in bodily power, He is great in beauty and He is great in renunciation. If we can find out somebody that He tallies with this greatness, then He is God. So that we find in Kṛṣṇa; therefore Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and what He says in the Bhagavad-gītā we accept as fact. And if we analyze His statements intelligently, pruriently, then we will find that what Kṛṣṇa says, that is fact.

Hayagrīva: Concerning different religions, he says, "All religious systems, it is confessed, are subject to great and insuperable difficulties. Each…"

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Hayagrīva: "Each disputant triumphs in his turn while he carries on an offensive war and exposes the absurdities, barbarities and pernicious tenets of his antagonists. But all of them," that is, all of the religions, "on the whole, prepare a complete triumph for the skeptic who tells them that no system ought ever to be embraced. A total suspense of judgment is here our only reasonable recourse."

Prabhupāda: No. Our principle is to know God from God, and religion means the principles given by God. Just like the law means the principle given by the state, similarly the principles given by God, that is religion. Otherwise it is pseudoreligion. If there is no conception of God, there is no direction of God, that is not religion. Religion is not a kind of blind faith. Religion is factual. That factual religion can be given by God Himself, and if we know God and what is His instruction, then we are religious.

Hayagrīva: Well, he believes that religion is necessary. He says religion, however corrupted, is still better than no religion at all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also agree. But religion without philosophy, logic, it is sentiment. That will not help us. So just like religion given by Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me." So if you think of God always, so that is good for us, we become purified. So this is religion. We have to meditate upon God, think about God. Therefore temple worship, Deity worship is necessary so that we can constantly think of God. But if we do not know what is God, what is the form of God, how we can offer Him worship, how we can think of Him, then it is pseudoreligion. His type of religion will not help the follower. One must be definitely in understanding what is God and what does He speak and how to abide by His order. That is real religion.

Hayagrīva: His conception of religion is utilitarian and social.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says, "The proper office of religion is to regulate the heart of man, humanize their conduct, infuse the spirit of temperance, order and obedience."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our system. We say, the social service, that "No illicit sex." If people indulge in illicit sex, society will be in chaotic condition. "No meat-eating." If we go on eating meat, then we revolt against the will of God, because God is the father of all living entities; He does not like that one of His son unnecessarily killed by another son on the plea that he is advanced son. The father cannot agree that the advanced son kill the ignorant or foolish son, the father will not agree. Therefore we say no meat-eating. When other foods are available, why one should eat meat? When there is wife, why there should be illicit sex? So religion means one should be good character. That is religion. This is one of the qualification becoming, that one who is actually religious, God conscious, that all the good qualities, either socially, politically, everything, even politician religious. Just like Arjuna, he was on the battlefield. This is politics. But because he was devotee he was hesitating to kill his enemies all. So this is the character of a devotee, that he can sacrifice his own interest because he has become a devotee. Others cannot do. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the conclusion of Hume. He felt that one must first be a philosophical skeptic before accepting the revealed truths of religion. Ultimately Hume maintains that these truths can only be accepted on faith, not experience or reason.

Prabhupāda: No, and why not reason? If we think that everything has some proprietor, owner, so it is quite reasonable to think that this vast land, vast sky, vast water, nature, they must have some proprietor. What is the fault in this logic? Why they conclude that there was a chunk, there was some gas, there was something like that? So why they think like that? Is that very reasonable? Wherefrom the chunk came? Wherefrom the gas came? Wherefrom the fire came? So this is reasonable. So there is a proprietor, as it is described in this Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10], aham ādir hi sarveṣām. So there must be some proprietor. That is logical. That is, that is philosophy. How one can…, one thing can exist without the owner or proprietor? So this is not like, that there is no proprietor. This is illogical, or without any philosophy. But think that there is a proprietor, this is completely logical.

Hayagrīva: As far as we can ascertain, Hume personally had no religion, no faith in the Christian or any other God. He also rejected that argument or reason could justify a faith. Thus Hume is a complete skeptic who denies the possibility of ascertaining certainty outside of a mere sequence of perceptions or ideas.

Prabhupāda: This, then the argument comes. If he does not believe in anyone's statement, why he is thinking his statement will be accepted? Then he is foolish. He is a child. Instead of becoming a philosopher, he is a child, talking all nonsense.

Hayagrīva: He maintains that man cannot know ultimate reality or possess knowledge of anything beyond a mere awareness of phenomenal sensory images.

Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. But if man cannot have any knowledge, so who is going to take your knowledge? Better you stop, don't talk. Is it not?

Hayagrīva: So much for Hume. (laughs) That's the end of Hume.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean is not that the conclusion? If he is skeptic, he does not take other's statement why he expects that his statement will be taken? Why does he propose any statement? Does he think that he is the greatest of all? Then everyone can think like that. That skeptic has no ground. He cannot say. If he is skeptic he should stop, he should not stand.

Hayagrīva: Why write so many books?

Prabhupāda: What?

Hayagrīva: Why write so many books?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He was a Scotchman. (end)

KANT.HAY

Immanuel Kant

Hayagrīva: Immanuel Kant. Being a son of the Enlightenment, Kant strongly advocated the right and duty of every man to judge for himself in religious and secular matters. Indeed, he considered the motto of the Enlightenment to be, "Have courage to make use of your own intellect." The emphasis here is on individual freedom and on the ability of man to intuit the truth.

Prabhupāda: Does it mean that anyone, whatever he does, that is perfectly right? If he is given that freedom, then anyone will do anything as he likes. So it will be taken as…

Hayagrīva: Well he, at the same time, he considered the Bible to be the best vehicle for the instruction of the public in a truly moral religion.

Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept some authority. Where is freedom?

Hayagrīva: He believed that the individual can intuit truths within, but could be helped from without by scripture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he should not become independent, but he advocates in the beginning that everyone should be independent. So that is not right proposal. One should be dependent on authority, and that authority should be recognized or well established. Then knowledge is possible.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "Absolutely no human reason can hope to understand the production of even a blade of grass by mere mechanical causes."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he has to know everything from the person or authority who knows that thing. That means this is perfect way of understanding, to take knowledge from the authority who is actually cognizant and knows things as they are.

Hayagrīva: He believes that behind nature or mechanical laws, he says that crude matter, or prakṛti, should have originally formed itself according to mechanical laws or automatically; that life should have sprung from the nature of what is lifeless. That matter should have been able to dispose itself into the form of a self-maintaining purpose is contradictory to reason. Simply by using our reason we can intuit the creator behind the creation.

Prabhupāda: No. Unless there is a brain… Matter has no brain. Matter cannot combine together without a brain behind. That brain is the Supreme Lord, God. That is quite reasonable. And if somebody thinks matter automatically combines together and becomes the sun, becomes the moon, so bright, without any brain behind it-that is ludicrous.

Hayagrīva: Well, he sees the design in nature, but he says the design only suggests a designer; it doesn't prove the existence of the…

Prabhupāda: No. As soon as there is earthen pot, immediately the potter is understood, and that is a fact. We cannot say that it is simply understanding that there is potter, but there is no potter. That is foolishness. Without potter, the pot is never manufactured, so as soon as you see the pot, you can immediately understand that some potter has made it. That is logic. That is philosophy.

Hayagrīva: He says because suffering and calamities overwhelm man in nature, it is impossible for man to see nature's final end.

Prabhupāda: No. Nature is not final end. Nature is only instrument. Just like I beat you with a stick. The stick is not beating you; I am beating you. Stick is in my hand. So from nature when you get tribulation, pains, that is designed by God, and nature is instrument. Śītoṣna-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. The change of season we find nature, but why it is systematically changing unless there is brain behind nature? In such and such month there will be winter. And by accident or by some other ways the month of April does not become winter; the month of December becomes winter. So there is adjustment. So therefore there is brain behind these natural changes and activities. That is confirmed, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10].

Hayagrīva: He says this can be intuited, but not known.

Prabhupāda: Not known? To foolish man everything is unknown, but to a man who is in knowledge, he knows everything. From the authority or my direct perception, somehow or other the knowledge is there. So "unknown" means that he doesn't care to know. Where to take knowledge he doesn't know, neither he personally knows; therefore it is unknown.

Hayagrīva: For him we cannot experience God through our senses.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. We always say that when God explains Himself, that is also not to everyone-only to the devotees. The devotees can accept the Personality of Godhead as He instructs. A nondevotee or atheist he cannot understand; he simply speculates. But by speculation it is not possible to understand God.

Hayagrīva: Kant says that speculative reason is unable to attain to a sure or adequate conception of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our…, that the speculator cannot reach vicinity of God. It is not possible. Athāpi te. Only one can understand by the mercy of God, and this mercy is bestowed upon a person who is devotee, who is surrendered to God. Otherwise this mercy is reserved, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ: [Bg. 7.25] "I am not revealed to everyone and anyone; rather, I am covered by yoga-māyā." Because revelation means when one becomes devotee this covering curtain is… What is called, curtain?

Devotee: Curtain.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Curtain.

Prabhupāda: No, curtain closed and opened.

Hayagrīva: Opened.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then one can understand. Just like at night there is sun in the sky-there is no doubt about it-but the night is (indistinct), prohibiting me to see the sun. But when the sun by his mercy rises in the morning, the night is immediately over and one can see this. So at night, by speculation you cannot understand sun, but when the sun rises in the morning… Sometimes we see from the airplane how within a second the sun comes out from the sea and everything becomes illuminated, and you can see things by light. You have got that experience?

Hayagrīva: Hm.

Prabhupāda: All of a sudden, as if it is coming from the sea.

Hayagrīva: He rejects the traditional proofs of God's existence in order to clear the ground for his assertion that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. In this universe, every soul is an end in itself, and these individual souls are like citizens in a kingdom of ends. He calls it "a kingdom of ends."

Prabhupāda: So why does he use that word kingdom if there is no king? This is unreasonable. Why does he say kingdom if…

Hayagrīva: Oh, he would say there is a king.

Prabhupāda: …he does not believe in king? He does not believe in God. The individual souls are ends themselves.

Hayagrīva: Oh, he believes in God…

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: …but that he rejects the traditional proofs of God. He says that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. His philosophy is a philosophy of ethics and morality.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if your, his morality does not accept God, and God is there-because we have already discussed that behind the nature there is God. So if his morality denies the existence of God, then where is the value of this morality? This morality can change at any time into degradation.

Hayagrīva: His, his emphasis are on morality is based on this. He says…

Prabhupāda: So what is morality?

Hayagrīva: He says, "For a rational but finite being…"

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: "…the only thing…"

Prabhupāda: So one man is thinking that animal killing is good, and another man is thinking animal killing is immorality. Then who is correct? Unless you know morality means this-it is coming from authority-that you have to follow it, otherwise you will be punished, then morality. Otherwise, if there is no background of forcing, that morality can be degraded into immorality at any moment.

Hayagrīva: Well, this is the weak…, this seems to be the weakness in his philosophy. He says, "For a rational but finite being the only thing possible is an endless progress from the lower to the higher degrees of moral perfection." So…

Prabhupāda: That means endless struggle to understand real morality. But if he takes the order of God, that he must do it, that is final morality.

Hayagrīva: This is… What he means by morality is rather vague. He does not say what this moral law is, other than it's called a categorical imperative.

Prabhupāda: But who is…

Hayagrīva: The categorical…

Prabhupāda: Who is, who will force that categorical imperative?

Hayagrīva: That says, "One should act in such a way…"

Prabhupāda: So how he will act? He is immoral. How he will act morally unless there is force?

Hayagrīva: For him, he says that the categorical imperative is that "One should act in such a way that the maxim of one's action becomes the principle for universal law."

Prabhupāda: That cannot be done. By individual soul it is impossible…

Hayagrīva: For a man.

Prabhupāda: …to do something which will be universally accepted. That is nonsense. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: A man cannot establish a universal law by his own action.

Prabhupāda: No. So God can do it. Just like God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e.. [Bg. 18.66].. Because God says, it has to be accepted. But if some individual soul said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām, who will do that? Nobody will do it. That's why we are preaching that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." We do not say that "You surrender to me." Who will hear me? "Who are you? Why shall I surrender to you?" But if one understands that God wants this surrender, then he will agree.

Hayagrīva: According to the Christian religion, at the end of the world there is a resurrection of the body, that is the gross material body. Kant does not think very much about this. He writes, "For who is so fond of his body that he would wish to drag it about with him through all eternity if he could get on without it?"

Prabhupāda: That is the nature. Even a hog, pig, he is living so abominable. Still, when he is captured for being killed, he cries. He does not think that "My body is so low-grade that I have to eat stool, I live in filthy place, in a very bad smell, and I am trying to save my, this body?" But he cries. So this is called māyā. Although his body is so abominable, he wants to protect it perpetually. This tendency is there because the living entity has actually…, he is perpetual living condition. He wants that, but he wants that in this material body. That is his mistake.

Hayagrīva: He writes that "Man alone can be regarded as nature's own end or highest product, because on earth only man is capable of complying with the categorical imperative, the moral law."

Prabhupāda: So it is accepted that nature creates man, and that is not very good philosophy. Nature creates man, then nature is supreme. There is no such thing. And nature is ultimate. Nature is dull matter. What do you call nature? Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ: [Bg. 7.4] earth, water, fire. They cannot create. Nature cannot create. Otherwise the materialist scientist, they could do it by combining, combining this earth, water, air, fire. So nature is dull, lifeless. How nature can create life? What is the logic? What is the philosophy?

Hayagrīva: He wouldn't say that. He would say that man is nature's final end…

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: …because man's moral nature alone is worthwhile.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He is giving stress that nature has made man. That is our objection, that nature cannot do anything. Nature has given a body that…, just like a tailor can give me a set of dress, but the dress, when I put on, the dress looks like a man, with hands and legs. But dress is nothing; it is simply outward covering of a man, a living entity. Similarly, nature gives us this material body, outward coating. The inside is living entity, that…, not the creation of this material nature. That is creation of part and parcel of God. This (indistinct) knowledge is imperfect, that nature has created man. That is imperfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: He maintains that certain knowledge of God's existence would destroy a man's freedom and reduce human experience to a show of puppets frantically currying the favor of the Almighty.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is favor. Just like nobody wants to die, but the superior power obliges everyone to die. So he is dependent. Why should you think that he is independent? That is foolishness.

Hayagrīva: He sees uncertainty as a necessary ingredient for faith.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Hayagrīva: Uncertainty is a necessary ingredient for faith.

Prabhupāda: No. Faith, faith should not be blind. That is useless. Faith… Just like I believe in the government. This is not faith, this is fact. There is government, and I am under government's law, so I have to obey the orders of government. This is not faith; this is fact. Similarly, to one who knows God and becomes dependent on Him, that is not faith; that is fact. He is happy by his depending on God. Just like a child, he knows that "Here is my father and mother." He voluntarily depends on the parents and he is happy.

Hayagrīva: In his last work Kant seems to shift his position. He says, "Morality thus leads ineluctably to religion, through which it extends itself to the idea of a powerful moral law-giver outside of mankind for whose will that is the final end of creation, which at the same time can and ought to be man's final end. Make the highest good possible in the world your own final end." So he seems to point to an absolute law-giver or an absolute morality, which is God, but he believes that this knowledge of God is ultimately uncertain.

Prabhupāda: Uncertain-for the man who does not possess the perfect knowledge. But if we believe in God, if we know God, we can get perfect knowledge from Him. Then we become perfect.

Hayagrīva: He says, "An ethical commonwealth can be followed only as a people under divine commands, that is, as a people of God, and indeed under laws of virtue. We might indeed conceive of a people of God under statutory laws. Under such laws, that obedience to them would concern not the morality but merely the legality of acts."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "This would be a commonwealth of which indeed God would be the law-giver."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the best quality of state. If we abide by the orders of God, or the king or the government abides by the order of God, that is ideal state.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Thus the constitution of the state would be theocratic, but man as priest receiving his bequests directly would build up an aristocratic government," like the brāhmaṇas would receive the knowledge from God.

Prabhupāda: That theocratic government is Manu-saṁhitā. That is Vedic literature given by Manu for the benefit of the human society.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "It does not enter men's heads that when they fulfill their duties to men they are performing God's commands and are therefore, in all their actions, so far as they concern morality, perpetually in the service of God, and that it is absolutely impossible to serve God directly in any other way, since they can effect and have an influence upon earthly beings alone and not upon God." He said we can only relate to man. We can only serve man and not serve God directly, but only serve god through man, like a humanitarianism.

Prabhupāda: So if he does not serve God, then how he will get direction how to serve the humanity? If he does not know how to serve humanity from God, then what is the value of his service to humanity? [break] …giving direction that "You serve humanity in this way, by preaching His message, Bhagavad-gītā, to all humanity." Then he becomes very faithful servant of God. So to give service to the humanity means when one is a faithful servant of God, he can service to the humanity or to all other living entities, and if he manufactures his service, that is useless.

Hayagrīva: Kant writes, "There is only one true religion, but there can be faiths of several kinds. It is therefore more fitting to say, 'This is…, this man is of this or that faith"-Jewish, Muhammadan, Christian, Catholic, Lutheran-'than he is of this or that religion.' "

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. Actually, religion means obedience to God. So religion does not mean some sect. They are trying to understand God some way, but that is not actually religion. That is a method of understanding God. But religion begins when one has actually understood God and giving Him, rendering Him service. That is religion.

Hayagrīva: For Kant, the true religion is the divine ethical state. He is…, he was fond of quoting the Christian Bible. When Christ was demanded of the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, 'Lo here' or 'Lo there,' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Now Kant footnotes this passage by saying, "Here a kingdom of God is represented not according to a particular covenant, but moral, knowable through assisted reason." So again he insists on the priority of God within, on the priority of ethical action and the freedom to accept ethical action. And this is epitomized in his famous line, "The starry sky above and the moral law within." The starry sky above is the abode of God, is very far away, but the moral law within is very close. Thus he emphasizes that the kingdom of God is within you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If one is actually aware of God and His instructions, then the kingdom of God is within himself.

Hayagrīva: The Religion Within the Limits of Reason Alone-that is one of his last books-he condemns prayer as an inner formal service to God, because God does not need information regarding the inner disposition of the person offering prayers. In other words, God does not need formal prayer to know what man needs. Such a prayer would be, "Give us this day our daily bread." However, Kant believes that it is good to teach children to pray so that in their early years they may accustom themselves to a life pleasing to God. So that prayer might add their…

Prabhupāda: That is religion: how to please God. That is not only restricted among the children, but authorized(?) to the children's father. One must know how to please God. That is real religion.

Hayagrīva: He rejects temple attendance, church-going as a means to salvation. He says, "Sensuous representations of God are contrary to the command of reason. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." So he would reject…

Prabhupāda: If somebody imagines…

Hayagrīva: …Deity worship.

Prabhupāda: …some image, that is not required. But if a, actually just like you keep the photograph of your beloved, that is not image. Image is imagination. But when you keep the photograph of your beloved, that is not imagination, that's a fact.

Hayagrīva: When you keep a photograph…

Prabhupāda: Of your beloved.

Hayagrīva: Beloved.

Prabhupāda: That is not imagination; that is fact.

Hayagrīva: So that is all. (end)

FICHTE.HAY

Johann Gottlieb Fichte

Hayagrīva: This is Fichte. He's not as important as Kant or Hegel, but he followed pretty much in the footsteps of Kant. His first work was entitled Our Belief in a Divine Government of the Universe, and he writes, "Our belief in a moral world order must be based on the concept of a supersensible transcendental world."

Prabhupāda: But thing is that what is morality? If he cannot define what is morality, simply saying on moral principles, what is this morality? First of all you have to understand what is morality. Simply imaginary moral principle. We want practical understanding what is morality. That they have not defined.

Hayagrīva: Not, not specifically.

Prabhupāda: Then what is immoral? Everyone will say this is morality. Just like we say, following the Vedic scripture, we say kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44], go-rakṣya, to give protection to the cows. So according to the scripture we would say it is morality, and somebody will say no, killing a cow in some religious place, mosque or synagogue, this is morality. So which one is morality?

Hayagrīva: Well he, following Kant, he emphasized inner reality…

Prabhupāda: He may, he may follow Kant and I may follow Kṛṣṇa, but if there is contradiction, then which one is morality? How it will be decided, and who will decide? He may follow somebody. That this question I asked Professor Kotovsky in Moscow, that "You are following Communism, and we are following, say, Kṛṣṇa-ism, but your leader is Lenin and our leader is Kṛṣṇa, that so far the philosophy is concerned we have to accept a leader." So there is no difference in the basic principle of philosophy that we must have a leader. Now who shall be the leader and who will decide it? Regards to both of us, we have got a leader. Now which leader is perfect? If both of them are perfect, then why there is difference of opinion-one leader does not agree with the other leader? So who will answer this question that who is the best leader? Leader you have to follow. That you cannot avoid. Either you follow Kant or you follow Kṛṣṇa. Either you follow Lenin or you follow Kṛṣṇa. What is the answer? Who is the perfect leader? You cannot avoid leader, either you say according to Kant, I say according to Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Well they both emphasize intuition or conscience. The interior…

Prabhupāda: The conscience is prepared. If you go on drinking, then your conscience will say it is good, and if you go on chanting, your conscience will say this is good. The conscience is prepared according to association. There is no standard conscience.

Hayagrīva: No standard conscience or intuition.

Prabhupāda: So which one will you follow?

Hayagrīva: They seem to think there is a standard within everyone.

Prabhupāda: So what is that standard? We say the order of Kṛṣṇa is standard. That's all. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is standard, that we have got some standard. Unless there is standard, you say conscience, high sense, morality… What is that? Define it. Just like we have got definition of God. I think nobody has got any definition of God. What is the standard that a person should be called God? I don't think… it is only in Vedic literature.

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

ṣaṇṇām iti bhaga iṅganā

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Clear. What is religion? Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. This is the definition of God, and dharma means the order of God. Everything is standard. What is their standard conception? And if you have no standard conception, simply imaginary morality, imaginary controller, imaginary God, how it will help us?

Hayagrīva: For Fichte the world has no objective reality outside of its being an instrument for the enactment of morality. He calls the world of the senses "the stuff of duty."

Prabhupāda: This is all vague. There is no definite direction.

Hayagrīva: He says our duty is revealed in the world of the senses. There's no definition of duty as such.

Prabhupāda: That means I can manufacture my own duty, you can manufacture your own duty. There is no standard. But our standard is, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śar… [Bg. 18.66], whatever you, rascal, whatever you have manufactured, give it up. The Bhāgavata says that dharmaḥ projjhita atra kaitavaḥ, that all cheating type of religious system is kicked out. Here is the religious system, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. What is that satyam? Oṁ namo bhāgavate vāsudevāya. Everything is clear. And where is that clear understanding? Simply speculating. That is the difference, the Vedic standard knowledge and this speculative philosophy. So, so far we are concerned, we refer to the Vedas, śabdaḥ pramāṇam. Śabdaḥ means Vedas, śabdaḥ brahman. So whatever action we do, if it is approved by the Vedic injunction then it is standard and confirmed.

Hayagrīva: Now duty, we get back to the same thing. He writes, "True atheism consists in refusing to obey the voice of one's conscience until one thinks one can foresee the success of one's actions, and thus elevating one's own judgment above that of God and in making oneself into God. He who wills to do evil in order to produce good is a godless person."

Prabhupāda: Now if you do not know what is God, then how you will verify your duty is nice, all-good? What is the order of God, who is God, then where is your duty? You simply manufacture your duty. So everyone can do that. So what do you mean by duty? Duty means the order given by some superior and you follow, you do it. That is duty. But if you have no superior order, if you have no conception who is the superior, what is his order, then where is your duty? Simply by mental imagination. Is it? Does he say it like that?

Hayagrīva: Well, for him, outside of one's duty…

Prabhupāda: So what is one's duty?

Hayagrīva: Yes, well…

Prabhupāda: That he does not know.

Hayagrīva: No, that is not…

Prabhupāda: So that is a useless, because everyone will say, "This is my duty." So who has given him the duty?

Hayagrīva: But it's ambiguous in this way. It says, "Outside the enactment of duty we can not know anything else of God."

Prabhupāda: So what is that, I am asking, what is your duty? We have got definite duty. We divide the whole human society into division. That is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Socially, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Now the…, it is so that whatever you are doing, you must do it in one of these eight principles. So there are eight principles; there are duties. So if you act accordingly to the position, say gṛhastha, you have got a position, or a sannyāsa, you have got a position So sannyāsī means this; gṛhastha means this. So if you follow that principle, then you are doing duty. But if you have no standing, then what is your duty? That is very common sense. If you go to work in a big office, so the master of the office gives you duty, "You do this. You are dispatcher." Or "You are clerk, you are this, you are…," then it is duty. And the, if you engage, go to the office, now "Simply let me do my duty," so "What is my duty? Shall I sit down on the clerk's bench or on the superintendent bench, or on the What is my duty?" Duty must be given, that "This is your duty." Where is that indication?

Hayagrīva: It's not in here.

Prabhupāda: So then what is duty?

Hayagrīva: He says, "Our knowledge of God arises from the enactment of our duty."

Prabhupāda: So what is your duty? That God must be giving you the duty, "You do this," then you understand God; you know your duty. But if you have no conception of God, then where is your duty?

Hayagrīva: Well duty, one's duty…

Prabhupāda: These are vague philosophy.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Not philosophy. It is simply ambiguous speculation, that's all.

Hayagrīva: He was also ambiguous when it came to a personal Deity, but he seemed to lean toward impersonalism.

Prabhupāda: We shall see impersonalism. First of all impersonalism, if you stick to impersonal, then there is no specific understanding of the master who is giving you duty.

Hayagrīva: He looks on the attribution of personality to God as simply a multiplication of one's self in his thoughts.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but where is the leadership of impersonal understanding? Is there any leadership, impersonal understanding?

Hayagrīva: Well he feels that if you attribute personality to God, you're simply…

Prabhupāda: I am not attributing. God cannot be attributed! That is a false concept. I cannot manufacture God by giving my imaginary attributes. That is not God.

Hayagrīva: Well he feels that if you attribute personality to God, you are simply projecting yourself onto God.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: This is what he is saying.

Prabhupāda: He is saying, but it is not… Even if you attribute, it must be sensual. Just like, full of sense, just like we say "God is great." So at least we have got conception of greatness, so that must be in God. So we suppose a person very big, at least at the present moment if one is very rich. So then my attribution to God that He is the supreme richest person. That is quite reasonable. If we say God is the supreme wise, that is quite reasonable. So this definition given by Parāśara Muni, that aiśvaryasya samagrasya, that is perfect. Unless one is the richest of all, how can be the great? We have got some conception of greatness, so even if we attribute all the conception of great, that must be God. That is a reasonable definition. Everyone goes to pray to God, "Give us our daily bread." But if He is a poor man, then how can He supply bread? And everyone is praying, "God has to be kind to everyone to supply bread," so He must be very rich. Otherwise how He can supply bread? This is quite reasonable. If everyone comes to me to ask something, so I must be able to supply that thing. Otherwise how can I be God?

Hayagrīva: But again he feels, like the others, that if you apply personality to God or if you look on God as a person you necessarily refer to someone who is limited and finite.

Prabhupāda: No. That is his mistake. He, he is thinking God is like himself, as he is finite. That is Dr. Frog.

Hayagrīva: Yes, he says…

Prabhupāda: That, if there is water, that water is this well. How can there be more than this? And maybe big well, that's all. But that is his conception. So this conception will not help. You cannot create God. Just like we have got God, Kṛṣṇa. As soon as there was necessity to give protection to the inhabitants of whole Vṛndāvana, the torrents of rain, and it requires a big umbrella, and immediately He lifted the whole mountain: "Come on, under this, let Me see how long this torrents of rain go on. I shall hold." That is God. He… So He was seven-years-old boy. He was not a meditation God. Nowadays that the rascals are becoming God by meditation. What is meditation God? God is always God. Does it require meditation to become God? There are all these rascals, they are preaching, "You meditate and you become God. You think that 'I am moving the sun, I am moving the earth, I am…' " This is rascaldom. But Kṛṣṇa, He is not that kind of God. He is always God. Now it is necessary, "All right. Lift this." This is God. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya. Whole strength is there to lift the mountain. That is God.

Hayagrīva: He doesn't bring in meditation. He feels…

Prabhupāda: There are others…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: …they say that meditation you become God. That meditation can make, manufacture God?

Hayagrīva: Well his, his impersonalist stand leads toward pantheism.

Prabhupāda: This is also kind of meditation, speculating that "God should be like this." What is that? But they cannot define what is that, this.

Hayagrīva: He says, "The concept of God as a separate substance is impossible and contradictory."

Prabhupāda: God is everything. There is no question of separation. That is defined in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everything." So how He can be separate?

Hayagrīva: But he rejects God as a separate person.

Prabhupāda: He may reject, but God is everything. How he can reject God? The, the, these are the defects of speculators. They cannot give us tangible leading. That because they are defective themselves, so whatever interpretation they will give, all defective.

Hayagrīva: Oh, he would agree that God is everything.

Prabhupāda: That God is…, how he can reject? If God is everything, then how can he reject?

Hayagrīva: But he would not say that God is more than the creation.

Prabhupāda: So how everything He can create? You cannot create the Pacific Ocean, but Pacific Ocean is God. So you are limited, why you are trying to create God? God is already there. Everything is God. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. How he can reject God? Because the table is God, table is God and table is staying on God… The same example: the earthen pot is also earth and it is kept on earth. So earth both of them are. The earthen pot, a tumbler, and waterpot made of earth, everything is made of earth. This table is made of earth and it is staying on earth. So what you can reject?

Hayagrīva: But he rejects God's transcendental nature, and when you…

Prabhupāda: That thing is that everything is God, just I have given the example. The floor is God, the table is God. Now which you can reject?

Hayagrīva: He wouldn't disagree with that.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the rejection of God?

Hayagrīva: He would reject the transcendental personality.

Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you accept that everything is God, what you can reject?

Hayagrīva: The transcendental personality separate from the creation.

Prabhupāda: Transcendental also God. As soon as you say everything is God, then that, what you call transcendental, and not transcendental, that is also God. Then how you can reject? If everything is God, how you can reject anything? Sarvaṁ khalu idaṁ brahma. There is no question of… The same example: if everything is made of earth, then where is the question of? My body is also earth. So what you can reject? That is our philosophy. We don't reject. We see God in everything. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. That is intelligence. And Rūpa Goswami said that prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, that there is everything is related with God. If we think, "This is matter, this is spirit," that is my speculation. That we have to see how God is there and how everything… Material means when you forget God. That is material.

Hayagrīva: Yet we concentrate on the personality of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: But that is…, that requires little brain. Those who are less intelligent or those practically no brain, simply cow dung, for them it is little difficult. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to cleanse this cow dung and make the brain pure. Then he will understand. Otherwise he is thinking God, "A person like me." But God is not like that. God is goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto [Bs. 5.37]. He is person. He is in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He is dancing with gopīs, playing with the cowherd boys-still He is everywhere. Not that "Now I am dancing I have no time to go everywhere." That is not. He may be engaged in dancing, but still He is everywhere, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-de… [Bg. 18.61]. Now if He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana only, a person like us, then how He can say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā [Bg. 9.26]? We are offering some dates to Kṛṣṇa, so He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He may say, "I am now busy. How can I go to your temple and eat?" No. He is also temple, in the temple also. That is God. He is everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto [Bs. 5.37]. This is definition, akhilātma-bhūto. So he has no conception of God. He cannot imagine God. He must take the understanding… [break] …because they have no standard knowledge. Everyone is manufacturing, so then there must be difference, because everyone is imperfect. You propose something imperfect, I propose something imperfect, so there must be disagreement.

Hayagrīva: Oh, he says, "Without action, knowledge has no meaning. Not merely to know but acting according to your knowledge is your vocation, not for idle contemplation of yourself."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We…

Hayagrīva: "Know for action you are here. Your action and your action alone determines your worth."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that we are meant for rendering service to Kṛṣṇa. So we do it daily from morning, four o'clock, to night, ten o'clock, they are always engaged to give service to Kṛṣṇa. So this is practical. If you simply sit down, speculate on God and smoke cigarette, then what is the use of such speculation? Here is practical life.

Hayagrīva: Well in this sense Fichte is closer to Kṛṣṇa consciousness than most impersonalists, because most impersonalist advocate inaction and meditation on the void, but, uh…

Prabhupāda: No, impersonalist…

Hayagrīva: …but how can you have action without action directed toward a person or toward…?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here in India, impersonalist, they have got also action. Just like the Māyāvādīs, they have also the same principle. The Śaṅkarācārya is teaching vairāgya, "Sit down under the tree, take thrice bath," so many vairāgya instruction. Rather, their instruction are more difficult than Vaiṣṇava. So vaivāgya-vidyā's teaching. Ours is also, Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught by His personal example. There is no question of inaction, sitting idly and gossiping about God imagination. Even an impersonalist or personalist, they are fully engaged. Just like the impersonalist in India, they are reading Vedānta-sūtra, they are trying to understand. They are not idle.

Hayagrīva: He felt that faith is the basis of action, not knowledge. He felt that knowledge…

Prabhupāda: So faith is…

Hayagrīva: …is not sufficient for action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith is there. Just like a child, even animals, we have seen in the park the swan… What is called the children of the swan?

Hari-śauri: Cygnets.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: Cygnets.

Prabhupāda: Cygnets?

Hayagrīva: Cygnets.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of, the spelling?

Hayagrīva: Baby swans.

Hari-śauri: C-y-g-n-e-t-s. Cygnets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Cygnets?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So we have seen it practically, this big swan is moving and the, they are also moving behind. The big one is jumping with water, and they are also jumping. They do not know where we are jumping, but they are jumping. The mother is swimming and they are swimming. This is natural.

Hayagrīva: But in Kṛṣṇa consciousness isn't knowledge rather than faith the basis for action?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. They are giving up everything: "Yes, I give up everything." So it's faith, full faith. "Now I shall have to consider whether I shall give up everything and take to Kṛṣṇa"-that is not faith; that is speculations. Why he should consider? That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. The faith is described, śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Faith means believing firmly. And what is that believing firmly? That kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If you have got faith, then you believe firmly that "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa I become perfect." That is faith. If you have still reservation, that is not faith, that is not faith. Here is faith. That faith, how it comes?

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

[Bg. 7.19]

This faith is not so easy. After many, many births, when one actually becomes a wise man, this faith comes in. Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Such kind of mahātmā is very rare to be seen, for this faith is not so easy. Na janma-koṭibhir labhyate, Rūpa Gosvāmī has said. This faith, sukṛtibhiḥ na janma-koṭibhir labhyate. Those who are pious, they are candidate, that also requires many, many births to come to this faith. Tatra laulyam eka mūlyaṁ na janma-koṭibhir sukṛtibhiḥ labhyate. So the faith is not so easy thing. Kṛṣṇa is, from the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, five thousand years ago, the Bhagavad-gītā is being studied by so many scholars like Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Vivekananda, Aurobindo. Where is that faith, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66]? They are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and pleading their own philosophy. And where is that faith? They never taught that "You surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Perhaps this is the first time. Of course, the Vaiṣṇava teaching us like that, but we, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching this, that "You catch up Kṛṣṇa." They have no faith and they are teaching Bhagavad-gītā. This is their only… They have no faith in Kṛṣṇa and they are preaching about Kṛṣṇa, they are studying Bhagavad-gītā. This nonsense is going on. They have no faith. They do not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa. Faithless preachers, rascals, and these yogis, swamis, they are preaching Bhagavad-gītā. So this is a nice point, that faith is the beginning, but they have no faith. Then where is the beginning?

Hayagrīva: The foundation.

Prabhupāda: Foundation is lost, and what is the use of big building? Any, anywhere you go, even the Christians, they have no faith in the words of Christ. That I point out every time, that Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill," and their only business is killing. Where is faith? The Ten Commandments, that is Christ's word. Who has faith in these Ten Commandments? Then where is Christian? This is going on.

Hayagrīva: For Fichte, faith is innate in all men. He says, "So has it been with all men who have ever seen the light of the world. Without being conscious of it, they apprehend all the reality which has an existence for them through faith alone."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "This faith forces itself on them simultaneously with their existence."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "It is born with them. How could it be otherwise?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we should have faith by experience that everything has got some proprietor, so why not the whole cosmic manifestation has proprietor? This is faith. You may not have seen the, who is the proprietor, but it is a question of faith. Everything I see has got a proprietor or owner, so who is the owner of this whole cosmic manifestation? This depends on faith. You may not have seen it. One says, "Who is that God? I don't see any proprietor." Then wherefrom it comes? "Ah, by accident." Is that any explanation? That is faith, that as everything has got some proprietor or some manufacturer, so why not this whole cosmic manifestation a proprietor? But you cannot say that "I am proprietor." There is some proprietor. That is faith. Just like we go, strolling in the morning, by the path. The (indistinct) park is part of high government. You know it is the property of the government. That just three yards after there is sea, now who is the proprietor of this sea? If this land is…, proprietor is the high government, now who is the proprietor of the water? There must be somebody. I may not know. That is faith. It is common sense. If the land is the property of somebody, so whose property is the sea? But there must be somebody. That is faith. Common sense. But they have no common sense even.

Hayagrīva: Getting back to conscience, that was…, we said was vague, he says, "This voice of my conscience announces to me precisely what I ought to do and what leave undone, in every particular situation of life. It accompanies me, if I but will listen to it with attention, through all the events of my life, and never refuses me my reward when I am called upon to act. To listen to it, to obey it honestly…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…and unob…"

Prabhupāda: So that means he wants to listen somebody's dictation. That is, as soon as you say "listen," then somebody is speaking, you listen. So that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is situated in everyone's heart, and He is dictating. Even He is dictating to the thief that "You are going to steal. It is not good. If you are arrested you will be punished." That dictation is there, but he disobeys the dictation and he steals, commits sin. That is sin. So the dictator is there, we admit that. Kṛṣṇa, or God, is there within the heart, and He is giving dictation, but you disobey. But if we accept that dictation, then you become devotee. Dictation is already there; otherwise this thief is going to steal at night? Dictation is there that "You don't go at the daytime. You will be captured and be punished." "All right, I shall go at night, when everyone is sleep." So dictation is there. Dictation is there in two ways-from the heart and from the representative. God's representative, saintly person, spiritual master, is dictating, "My dear boy, do not do this; you do this." Outside dictation. And inside dictation. But he is disobeying. Regularly he is disobeying. Then how he can be happy?

Hayagrīva: His ultimate goal is to merge into what he calls the universal ego.

Prabhupāda: That universal ego, so just like I have got some ego, "I am the husband of my wife," "I am the chief man in my family," "I am the president of the state"-these are egos. But you cannot say that "I am the master of this whole universe." That is false ego.

Hayagrīva: So he feels that one can go through the universe assimilating everything, until one finally unifies with the impersonal Absolute.

Prabhupāda: Impersonal Absolute means the Absolute, as soon as you say Absolute, there is no distinction between impersonal and personal. Then it is no Absolute. If you have got distinction that "This is personal; this is impersonal," then that is not Absolute. Do you think it is Absolute? It is contradictory.

Hayagrīva: Well for, for him, God is simply the universal ego, nothing more, and that…

Prabhupāda: No. You say Absolute. As soon as say Absolute there is relative also. Otherwise what is the meaning Absolute?

Hayagrīva: Yes. He would say that. He would say that…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …there is the ego and the universal ego.

Prabhupāda: So then why he is distinguishing, discriminating between personal and impersonal? In the Absolute there is no such difference. That is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, advaya. That is Absolute. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva vidas tattvam yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. That is Absolute. Dvayam, dvayam means relative. That is not relative. So actually we are searching after the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is realized in different ways. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The, just like the same example I gave the other day, that from a distant place you are seeing this mountain, something cloudy. You come a little forward, you will see it is green, and if you enter the mountain you will see so many varieties. The one is there, but it is due to my relative understanding by distant or nearer the Absolute is appearing in different way. Absolute is one. That is Absolute. But it is due to my position, qualitative position, we see imperson or all-pervading or Bhagavān. So actually He is Bhagavān. Brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The impersonal feature is standing on Him. Yes. That just like this, this mountain, you see from distance impersonal, but you go to the mountain you will see so many houses, so many persons, so many animals, so many. So because I am looking the Absolute from very distant place, it looks impersonal. Actually it is not. It is my position to see. Although this impersonal is also the Absolute. What you are seeing like vague cloud, this same mountain or the same hill, but… (aside:) Oh, come on. You're feeling little… (end)

HEGEL.HAY

George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

Hayagrīva: And, uh, we can go on to Hegel?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He did quite a bit of reading in Indian philosophy, but it seems to be confined to impersonal…,

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …the Upaniṣads…

Prabhupāda: It is simply, Upaniṣads is just the opposite-spirit is not matter. That is the instruction of Upaniṣads.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "Spirit, in so far as it is the spirit of God, is not a spirit beyond the stars, beyond the world. On the contrary, God is present, omnipresent, and exists as spirit in all spirits. God is a living God who is acting and working. Religion is a product of the divine spirit. It is not a discovery of man but a work of divine operation."

Prabhupāda: This is very important thing, that a man cannot manufacture religion. That is very important point. Therefore we say religion means the words, the order given by God. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You have manufactured so many religious systems. You give up, kick it out. It has no value. Here is religion." And in the beginning He said, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya: "I have appeared to re-establish the principle of religion." And He says at last that "Give up. Kick out all this so-called religion. Here is religion." What is that? Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ…: "You just surrender to Me." This is religion. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "The order given by God, that is religion." Otherwise, everything is bogus. It has no meaning. The same example: law means which is given by the government. You cannot say, "I have prepared the law." Who will care for you? Even the small law, "Keep to the right," that is religion. If you say, "What is the law? If they keep to the left…" No. That will not be accepted. "Keep to the right" is religion, and "Keep to the left" is criminal. So religion is pious and impious-everything on the order of Kṛṣṇa, or God. If you follow strictly the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then you are religious, pious, transcendental, devotee, everything. And if you defy Kṛṣṇa, you manufacture your own way, then you are rascal, asura. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. He is narādhamāḥ. This is the way. Less than the mankind, narādhamāḥ, who do not follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, or God.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "The lifting of the spirit to God occurs in the innermost regions of spirit upon the basis of thought. Religion as the innermost affair of man has here its center and the root of its life. God is in his very essence thought and thinking, however His image and configuration be determined otherwise."

Prabhupāda: His image, if God is absolute, His image is also God. If God is absolute, then His words are also God. That is absolute conception. That iw not different. So the image which we worship in the temple, if it is actually image of God, then it is as good as God. God is absolute. God says that "This earth, water…, so everything is My energy." So even if you say, "This image is made of stone," but the stone is God's energy, bhūmi, earth. So there is a regulative principle, just like a wire, a copper wire, it is carrying electricity. Although the copper wire is not electricity, but it is carrying electricity. Similarly, if you take even material-otherwise spiritually everything is God, that is another thing-but materially if we distinguish that the copper wire, it appears as copper wire, but if you touch, "Oh, there is electricity." So it is manipulated. Similarly, by the rules and regulation as enunciated by the experienced spiritual master and guru, then even if you think it is stone, it is God. The same example, you see it is electric wire, but it is electricity. Similarly, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. It is…, this has been warned: don't think that this śilā, stone. Is God. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as saw Jagannātha, immediately fainted. So we have to be trained up by the instruction of God how to realize God everywhere.

Hayagrīva: Hegel considered history and theodicy to be integral. He looks on history as a justification of God, and he rejects the Vedic conception of history because he doesn't see it unfolding any particular meaning. That is, universes are created, maintained and annihilated in an apparently meaningless way. For Hegel, history has to tell the story of man's elevation to God. Apart from the history of man, God would be alone and lifeless. God seems to depend on human history. God is not transcendental but is manifest in the world.

Prabhupāda: But if He is dependent on history, how He is God? This is nonsense proposal. (laughing) He is dependent on history!

Hayagrīva: Doesn't the history of mankind necessarily…

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, God is independent, satandhara (?). Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. Svarāṭ, independent. He does not depend on anything; still He is God. That is God. If He is dependent on anything, then He is not God.

Hayagrīva: But does the history of man necessarily make any sense? He saw it as progressing, as man, here again is evolution…

Prabhupāda: As soon as there is creation there is history, from the very beginning, that this is the point of creation and it will go on, history, until it is ended. Just like as soon as you are born, your horoscope is made, the history. Now throughout your whole life there are so many activities, and after, we also believe next life the history continues. But superficially we make history from the beginning to the end of this body, that's all. But God is not subject to such rule that "God is created at a certain point and He is ended at a certain point." Then where is the question of history? There is no history. History is for the small things. For me there is past, present, future. For God there is no such thing as past, present, future. So where is the history? History means past, present, future.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But God has no past, present, future. So where is history? It is all nonsense. He does not know what is the meaning of God.

Hayagrīva: Hegel placed a great deal of emphasis on human freedom.

Prabhupāda: There is no freedom. That is another nonsense.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) He is subjected to birth, death, old age. Where is his freedom? That is another nonsense.

Hayagrīva: He accuses the Orientals, mainly the Indians… He says, "The Orientals do not know that the spirit is free in itself or that man is free in himself. Because they do not know it, they are not free."

Prabhupāda: But is he free? Why he died? The Orientals he is accusing. Why he died? This is their nonsense speculation.

Hayagrīva: He says, "They only know that the one"-that is, the one Brahman-"is free; therefore such freedom is only arbitrary."

Prabhupāda: Then why he says that the human being should be free?

Hayagrīva: He says this one, supreme one, is therefore a despot, not a free man, not a man. Only the Germanic nations have in and through Christianity achieved the consciousness that man as man is free and that freedom of the spirit constitutes his very nature. This consciousness arose first in religion and the innermost region of spirit.

Prabhupāda: Christian religion is that the man either goes to heaven or goes to hell. So he has got the freedom either go to hell or go to heaven. This freedom he has got. But who gives him hell or heaven? He has got the freedom to make choice, but when he is going to hell, then where is his freedom? That where is the distinction between hell and heaven? These are… If he is Christian he should answer that the man is given chance, once, either to go to hell or go to heaven. So all right, if he goes to heaven it is all right. Then if he goes to hell, where is freedom? This common sense also, that every citizen has got the freedom to live as free citizen or to go to the jail, but one who goes to the jail, where is freedom? And who gives him the chance of free citizenship or prisoner's life? Therefore his freedom is dependent on somebody, higher principle, who gives him chance to remain free or go to prison. That God is the supreme controller. He gives the living entity freedom to make his choice, either go to hell or go to heaven, but he is not completely free as God is free.

Hayagrīva: He says the grandeur of Indian religion and poetry as well as Indian philosophy have been acknowledged especially in their rejection and sacrifice of the senses. Now his conception is typical nineteenth century…

Prabhupāda: He has no study of the Vedic literature; still he poses himself to remark on the Vedic literature. That is his ignorance.

Hayagrīva: He considers the goal of Indian philosophy to be spiritual as well as physical extinction. Nirvāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Physical extinction, everyone says that-even Christian religion says-you go to hell, go to heaven. So who goes to heaven? Who goes to heaven? What is the qualification? Reasonably, one who has given up this physical.

Hayagrīva: He says spiritual extinction as well as physical, nirvāṇa.

Prabhupāda: But then he has no idea what is spiritual. Spiritual is eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. How does it, spiritually… Spirit is also annihilated, then where is the difference between matter and spirit? Imperfect knowledge. And still they are big philosopher. Scanty knowledge.

Hayagrīva: He sees the religion of India as a religion in which man is handed laws from a God who is exterior to man, from a will that is entirely foreign to man. And he sees this to be opposed to what he considers to be a more advanced religion, in which the individual soul is lifted to the supernatural through the use of reason, internal sanction or subjective confirmation. In other words, he sees the Indian religion as being blind following of an exterior will. He says that man can only attain God through the exercise of his own free will.

Prabhupāda: Then why the animals cannot? Animal is given complete free will.

Hayagrīva: He says animals have no will.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If he has no will, why he goes to different direction?

Hayagrīva: He says that animals have no right to life because they have no will.

Prabhupāda: Just see. What is the symptom of life? First of all settle up, how do you know? We can distinguish that this table has no life, that a small ant on the table there is life. How you distinguish, that here is life, there is no life? Then what is the symptom of life? If the symptom of life is there in animal, there is life. Why they will say there is no life? What is the philosophy? There is life. He is eating; you are eating. He is sleeping; you are sleeping. He is having sex; you are having sex. He is also afraid of enemy; you are also afraid. Then why do you say that you have life, he has no life? What is the symptom of life? This is the primary symptom of life. So if he has got these primary symptoms of life, how do you say he has no life? That means you have no intelligence even.

Hayagrīva: He associates religion with…

Prabhupāda: As this table has no life, because the table does not require to eat, the table does not require to sleep… But another thing, a small ant, he is hankering after "Where is a little sugar?" hankering, eating. That is life.

Hayagrīva: He would see that as instinct.

Prabhupāda: So what is nonsense instinct? The man has got these symptoms and the small ant has got these symptoms. That is life. That vague description, and still they are big philosopher. No perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: He associates religion with art. He says religion represents or pictures the absolute, whereas philosophy conceives or thinks of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So religion without philosophical basis is sentiment. It has no value.

Hayagrīva: And for him, God is necessarily manifest in the finite; therefore he places the incarnation of Christ, the incarnation of God, as central in the Christian religion. That is, in order to be manifest, God has to become finite. God has to become man.

Prabhupāda: Then if God is man, if He is taken as man, then why His instruction should be followed?

Hayagrīva: Excuse me? Why His instructions…?

Prabhupāda: Should be followed? You are man, I am man. Why should you follow my instructions?

Hayagrīva: Well he says…, he says you shouldn't, because there's no exterior will to be followed. This is Hegel's philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Then if he is godless, God has no use, will. Either he is godless or God has no will. Is it not? Then he is animal, and if he says animal has no will, then God becomes exactly like animal.

Hayagrīva: Speaking of the body and the soul, he says "The body, insofar as it is an uncultivated piece of external existence, is inadequate to the spirit. The spirit must first take possession of it in order to make it its animated tool. But in reference to other people, I am essentially free even as to my body. It is but a vain sophistry that says that the real person, the soul, cannot be injured by maltreatment offered to one's body. Violence done to the body is really done to me." Since the body, he says, is the tool of the soul…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …if you injure the body of a person, you are actually injuring the person…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …because you are injuring his property.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But why the Christians killing?

Hayagrīva: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Why the Christians are killing animals?

Hayagrīva: Yes. If that's the case, why mistreat the animals, animal bodies?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: The animals have no right to life, he says, because they have no will.

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He has got will. When you take to the slaughterhouse, he protests.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Mankind has the right of absolute proprietorship. A thing belongs to the accidental first-comer who gets it."

Prabhupāda: What accident?

Hayagrīva: To… A thing belongs… Or whoever comes first. Say there's a gold mine. If I get there first, it's mine, because I'm the first-comer.

Prabhupāda: That means that, then, "Might is right."

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But gold, they say, if he says gold is there, whose gold it is?

Hayagrīva: He says the first-comer…

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you go and say… First of all you become proprietor. But who is the actual proprietor of the gold, when you did not go? You may go first and claim proprietorship, but the gold was there. So whose property it is? Gold was there. Who made that gold? Who kept that gold? This question must be there.

Hayagrīva: He says it's mine because I put my will into it.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is mine, you have first gone there, accept it. But who kept the gold there? Who made the gold there? And if somebody else made the gold and kept the gold, you go first and capture it, then you are a thief. Is it not? I have kept something there, and somebody comes by says, "It is mine," then he is a thief, because the gold is already there, it's kept by somebody. You did not take his permission; you simply claimed, "Because I have come first, I am the proprietor." You are not proprietor. But if the gold was kept there for taking part of it to enjoy it by everyone, and you take it by might-"I have come here first"-then you are a thief; you are not a philosopher. You have no sense who kept that gold, who manufactured that gold-you do not take his permission. Because you have come first, therefore you become proprietor-then you are not a philosopher; you are thief, ordinary thief. "Might is right," "I have come" philosophy. "Therefore I am proprietor."

Hayagrīva: Because I will it to be mine… He says because I come first and will it to be mine, it is mine.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. By force you can do that, you are doing that.

Hayagrīva: And I can relinquish it because I can will to relinquish it.

Prabhupāda: But first thing is that if you have got will, but reasonable will, first of all you have to think, "Who has kept this gold here? I am claiming proprietorship simply by coming here, but who has kept this gold here?" Why don't you think like that? What kind of human being you are?

Hayagrīva: A final point: he believed that man should have the freedom to choose his occupation. He writes, "In the Platonic state, subjective freedom was of no account. Since the…"

Prabhupāda: That means there are already different occupations, and you have freedom to select one of them. But the occupation is already there, created by somebody else. You have the freedom to make a choice. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: [Bg. 4.13] "I have created these four principles of occupational duties." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Now, if according to your qualification you can make a selection, "I, I like this occupation." But the occupation is already there. Just like a shopkeeper, he has got varieties of goods. The customer goes, he can say, "I like this." "All right, you can take it. This is the price." Similarly, the occupational duties are already there. The (indistinct) are already there. That is created by God. Now you can select one of them according to the price you can pay. That is the…

Hayagrīva: Not according…, not according to birth?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Not according to birth?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: He thinks… He says in many Oriental states this assignment… He says, Hegel, in tle Platonic state, in Plato's Republic, the government assigns each individual his occupation. In Oriental states, in…, for instance in India, he says this assignment results from birth. The subjective choice, which ought to be respected, requires free choice by individuals, and he considers this the basic right.

Prabhupāda: No. The thing is just like Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. This is going on all over the world. The occupation is that just like engineering occupation. So who can become engineer? Guṇa-karma, one who has acquired the qualification of engineering profession and is actually acting as engineer. That is wanted. Guṇa-karma. Kṛṣṇa never says, "Birth" But later on, because an engineer trains his boy as engineer, so naturally he becomes also engineer. Formerly, as we understand from the history of Ajāmila… He was a son of a brāhmaṇa, and he was being trained up as a brāhmaṇa. That was the system. Not that because he has born in the brāhmaṇa family he becomes brāhmaṇa. No. He has got the chance of being trained up as brāhmaṇa by the brāhmaṇa father. So it became later on as caste, by birth, because naturally a brāhmaṇa father trains his son to become brāhmaṇa. But when the brāhmaṇa's son becomes a cobbler, that does not mean he is still brāhmaṇa. That we find from the… Tadīya lakṣaṇaṁ dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. If a brāhmaṇa's son has become a cobbler, he should be called a cobbler, or a cobbler's son has become a brāhmaṇa, he should be called a brāhmaṇa. Not by the birth. But it became a qualification of birth because formerly it was easy, because he is dealing with his father and father is brāhmaṇa, so automatically, fifty percent he becomes brāhmaṇa, and fifty percent by training, then he becomes complete brāhmaṇa-by association, by family. So it is not that a cobbler cannot become brāhmaṇa if he also acquires the qualification of a brāhmaṇa. Nārada said, tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. If he has already acquired the qualification of brāhmaṇa then he should be called a brāhmaṇa. Not that a brāhmaṇa's sons becomes qualified as a cobbler, tannery expert, and he remains brāhmaṇa. That is not. He has no knowledge. That means if you have studied all the Vedic literature, he could not say like that. The injunction is tadīya lakṣaṇaṁ dṛśyeta. The qualification, if you find elsewhere, then he should be designated by the qualification. A doctor's son, instead of taking up the life of medical life, if he becomes engineer, so he should be called engineer, not doctor. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35], it is clearly said. So the, Kṛṣṇa's plan, that "I have created four divisions according to quality and work," cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma [Bg. 4.13], that is final. One must have the qualification and he must work. If… He must have the brahminical qualification and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Simply theoretical will not do. Just like we are giving sacred thread to a person who is born in low family, but we are training him also to act as a brāhmaṇa. Not that you take the sacred thread and go be…, work as cobbler. No. You must be engaged in Deity worship, brāhmaṇa's work, business, then you are a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise you are not a brāhmaṇa.

Hayagrīva: In a very often-quoted passage Hegel writes, "God is only God insofar as He knows Himself. His self-knowledge is more over His consciousness of Himself in man and man's knowledge of God, a knowledge that extends itself into the self-knowledge of man in God."

Prabhupāda: That, if he accepts that, then why not man takes knowledge of God from God? Then his knowledge is perfect. Why he should speculate?

Hayagrīva: He considers man to be essential to God.

Prabhupāda: But he, he has accepted God as man…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So to possess the knowledge of God, the best duty of man is to take knowledge from God about God. I know myself, that he says, that God knows Himself. So if God knows, that is natural. I know what I am. So if you take knowledge of me from me instead of speculating, that is perfect knowledge. So here, in the Bhagavad-gītā, the God is explaining Himself. So if you simply take the knowledge given by God, that is your perfected knowledge of God. Why you are speculating? You are wasting time. Take the knowledge from God about Him, and then you have perfect knowledge. Why should you speculate? Suppose I am studying you, I am speculating, "Well, Hayagrīva may be like this, he might have so much money, he might have so much bank balance, he is living like that," this is speculation. But if I say, "Hayagrīva, what you are?" you say, "I have got this, I do like this," that is my perfect knowledge. Why shall I speculate?

Hayagrīva: Well then you wouldn't be able to write so many books.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. When I have got perfect knowledge, then I can write.

Hayagrīva: Then.

Prabhupāda: Without perfect, whatever I write, that is nonsense. That is nonsense. That is the difference-paramparā system. All these philosophers, they are simply talking nonsense, and whatever we are writing, there is meaning. Why? Because we are studying God from God. This is our perfection. We are not speculating about God. That is the difference. Now we are expanding my knowledge so that you can understand. That is my writing. But my basic principle is that I have understood God from God, not by speculation. That is my qualification. If I know God from God, then my knowledge about God is perfect. Then whatever I write, that is perfect. Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair *, that therefore all scriptures accept the guru, spiritual master, as directly the Supreme Lord. Why? He does not speak anything nonsense. That is; therefore he is called servitor God. He is serving God, giving the same knowledge as God has given to him; therefore he is perfect. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva *. So knowledge, if we, if we take God, what is God, if we understand from God, then our knowledge of God is perfect. Simply by speculating you cannot become perfect. That is not possible. So if Mr. Hegel…?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is Hegel now, what? What is his…?

Devotee: Hegel.

Hayagrīva: Hegel.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So if he accepts God and he inducts a man, the man should take knowledge from God about God. The his knowledge of God is perfect. He should not speculate. And if he has no such source of taking knowledge from God, then his conception of God is also false. If he has got actually the conception of God, then he should take knowledge from God what He is. That is perfect knowledge. He was talking of Oriental knowledge. This is Oriental knowledge: they know who is God and they take knowledge from God about God. But here, Occidental, they speculate about God. What they will know about God? Whatever they speculate, that is imperfect, because he is imperfect.

Hayagrīva: He equates idea, reason, God, and the Absolute very much like the Greeks.

Prabhupāda: Everything is there, but if you take knowledge from God, then that is perfect, and if you make your own ideas-you do not take the ideas of God-that is imperfect.

Hayagrīva: He does say reason is also infinite form, that which sets this material in motion…

Prabhupāda: This is, this is, this is real reasoning, that "I am imperfect or limited. How I can speculate on the unlimited? So better let me learn from the unlimited about the unlimited." That is perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: One final point is that he sees the worship of animals and plants to be a form of pantheism. He refers to Indian religion…

Prabhupāda: No. But Indian, that he does not know; still he speaks. That is the most regretful situation.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If God says that "Amongst the plants I am this plant…"

Hayagrīva: Tulasī, Tulasī.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So the Hindus, they worship, follow God's instruction. That is they have got in a certain sense. God has said that "Amongst the plants, I am this plant, so worship." They are not worshiping all, every plant.

Hayagrīva: This isn't…, then this difference from the pantheists, who would worship, say, everything.

Prabhupāda: They, they will worship any nonsense, but here it is God consciousness. God has said that "I am this," so "I am…," I will worship. That is God, God consciousness. God has said. He has complete faith in God. Just like praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu: "Of Vedic knowledge I am the oṁkāra." Therefore they follow: oṁ tad viṣṇu paramaṁ para…, every mantra is followed by. How he has known oṁkāra is God? That God has said: praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. So God is giving instruction how He should be realized. So they are following that. They are realized; they realize actually. And what is the use of speculating? He will never understand God because he is speculating with his limited knowledge. God is unlimited.

Hayagrīva: So although God is all animals and all plants…

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is…

Hayagrīva: Although God is everything, we concentrate on these particular…

Prabhupāda: No. That is especially prohibited. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: [Bg. 9.4] "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." Just like the body of a dog. The body is on the soul; the platform is the soul. Otherwise there is no meaning of the body. So the body of the dog is depending on the soul of the body. But that does not mean the dog's body is God. Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. Find out this verse, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. They are taking just as Vivekananda, they, the body of a daridra, poor man, is resting on God, Nārāyaṇa…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: …but he is taking the body as Nārāyaṇa. That is his knowledge, imperfect. He is saying daridra-nārāyaṇa. God has become daridra. And he is taking the consideration of the body; therefore he is thinking God has become daridra. The body of a daridra, poor man, is depending on Nārāyaṇa, but he is taking the body as Nārāyaṇa. He is such a fool, and he is going on. Ah. Find out…

Devotee:

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

[Bg. 9.4]

Prabhupāda: Read the purport.

Devotee: Translation. "By Me in My unmanifested form this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."

Prabhupāda: "On service of his origin." What is? On His Majesty's service. What is that slogan?

Devotee: "On His Majesty's service."

Prabhupāda: Ah. (indistinct) That does not mean the…, Her Majesty is there. The Majesty, Her Majesty's power, order, is everywhere. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni. The government is acting with the seed on Majesty's service, but that does not mean Her Majesty is there. This is simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedābheda. Majesty is there because the order is there, but still personally he is not there. So the, another, that begun already, is that daridra, in daridra Nārāyaṇa is there, but not that daridra is Nārāyaṇa. But he has no vision. He is talking of this daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is mistake. Nārāyaṇa is there undoubtedly, but not that daridra is Nārāyaṇa. This is impersonalism, Māyāvāda mistake. That is pantheism.

Hayagrīva: Pantheism. So when Kṛṣṇa says, "I am sex life according to dharma," then this means that He can be perceived in this way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you, just like garbhādhāna ceremony. That is not a secret thing. That garbhādhāna ceremony is that "I am going to beget a child. I am going to have sex with my wife for begetting a Kṛṣṇa conscious child," so that Kṛṣṇa is remembered. While having sex, if he remembers, "Kṛṣṇa, give me a child who will be Your devotee," that is the duty of the father. So this kind of sex is Kṛṣṇa. And if we have sex for enjoyment, that is not. That is demonic. That is the, Kṛṣṇa says…

Hayagrīva: But Kṛṣṇa is present nonetheless.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always present, but if when you hold a ceremony, garbhādhāna ceremony, that "I am going to have sex with my wife for begetting a Kṛṣṇa conscious child," then you remember Kṛṣṇa. And at the time of sex, the mentality of the father and mother, that is acquired by the child. There is rules and regulation for garbhādhāna ceremony, and in the Bhāgavata you will find that as soon as a…, the…, one gives up the garbhādhāna ceremony, he is a śūdra. So who is observing this garbhādhāna ceremony at the present moment? Therefore everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ. Everyone is born as śūdra. The father and mother gave birth as śūdra. So this birthright of brāhmaṇa is no longer in this day. Even they falsely claim, "Because I am born of a brāhmaṇa father I am brāhmaṇa," that śāstra will not support. Whether garbhādhāna ceremony was performed? And nowadays, especially, who knows that he is son of a brāhmaṇa? The woman is intermingling with everyone, and who has given birth of the child? Whether he is actually a brāhmaṇa's son, a śūdra's son, who knows it? So how he can claim, by birthright, a brāhmaṇa? That is not possible. Therefore everyone is śūdra. But he can be trained as a brāhmaṇa. That is pāñcarātrikī-vidhi. We are following this pāñcarātrikī-vidhi, not Vedic vidhi. Vedic vidhi is different. Pāñcarātrikī. By training. He has got little tendency, little fire, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. All right, fan it, make the fire bigger than this. But if he gives up the firing process, he remains fire, but he will go unfinished. (Sanskrit), that a small seed, you sow it and regularly pour water… Just like Govinda dāsī introduced this Tulasī. She is responsible for introducing Tulasī in the Western countries.

Hayagrīva: So the Tulasī, the actual… To get back to the original point, the actual philosophy behind reverence for the Tulasī plant or the cow or the sexual ceremony, the basis then would be remembrance of Kṛṣṇa, that these can bring remembrance of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Because Kṛṣṇa says so, but…

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ cintayantaṁ mām: "Always thinking of Me," that is the process of consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto [Bg. 18.65]. "Always think of Me." So somehow or other you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, purified.

Hayagrīva: But you shouldn't think of Kṛṣṇa in any…, in another way, for instance a palm tree or…

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Then He is giving indication that "Amongst the trees I am this." So you take it.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. He said that "I am the taste of the water." So you are drinking water always. The taste which quenches your thirst and you feel satisfaction, that is Kṛṣṇa. Now if you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, "Now I am drinking water. Now I am feeling satisfaction. Now this satisfaction is Kṛṣṇa," then you remember Him.

Hayagrīva: Hegel mistook this for pantheism.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Hegel mistook this for pantheism.

Prabhupāda: He has mistaken in so many ways. (Sanskrit) Just like our… Not Pradyumna. If somebody has boils all over the body, then where it will be operated? Better kill this body. (laughing) So he has got so many boils, this Hegel and Segel, all, because they are speculators. They have no definite knowledge. Speculators cannot have definite knowledge. Therefore our Professor Dimmock has said, "Here is definite definition of Gītā." What is that? Just see. Then it is so. He has appreciated it. You cannot see, of the…

Devotee: They only put two lines of what he said in there. He says this…

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his word.

Devotee: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Read it all.

Devotee: "Definitive English edition of Bhagavad-gītā. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of the text already known to many, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has increased our own understanding manyfold."

Prabhupāda: That is a definite, not vague, speculative. That is the difference between my translation and others. Therefore I have given the name "As It Is." So we will be no spoke or speculation. As soon as you speculate, you are rejected. Therefore others are seeing some danger that "This Bhaktivedanta's…, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is accepted, then where we are?"

Hayagrīva: Everybody wants to speculate.

Prabhupāda: That's all. We are, I have stopped it. They cannot speculate on the words of Bhagavad-gītā. That is our mission. Won't allow you to speculate. You are finite, imperfect. How you can by speculation give the unlimited, infinite? How it is possible? That is reasonable. Waste of time, misleading others. Aṇḍhā yathāndair upanīyamānāḥ. You are blind; how you can show others, blind men? They are already blind. You open your eyes, then take the leadership of the blind. Ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā. That is our process. That's all right. (end)

SCHOPENHAUER.HAY

Arthur Schopenhauer

Hayagrīva: This is Schopenhauer. For Schopenhauer happiness is inactive satisfaction, inactivity, nirvāṇa. The will to live is the irrational urge…

Prabhupāda: What does he give…, what does he explain about the nirvāṇa? What?

Hayagrīva: The will to live is the irrational urge that brings about all suffering. And his is a philosophy of extinction. Now in his first book, The World Is Idea, he ascribes to the philosophy of māyā, like a Māyāvādī. He writes, "The Vedas and Purāṇas have no better simile than a dream for the whole knowledge of the actual world, which they call the web of māyā, and they use none more frequently." From this Schopenhauer concludes that life is a long dream. "What is this world of perception besides being my idea? Is that of which I am conscious only as idea exactly like my own body, of which I am doubly conscious, in one aspect as idea, in another aspect as will?" So from this he concludes that life is a projection of the will.

Prabhupāda: This material life?

Hayagrīva: Material life is a projection of the will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has read it. It is taken from Indian… It is called vāsanā. Vāsanā means desire. So that desire, material desire, but the living entity cannot be desireless. Desireless…, nirvāṇa means material desires finished. But because living entity is eternal spiritual being, he is, he has got spiritual desire. Now it is covered. The desire is there, desire is constant companion, but because it is materially covered, we are thinking this temporary world as reality, and it is not reality; therefore it is changing. We are having different types of desires according to the body we get, and the soul is transmigrating in this material world from one body to another, and he is creating a certain type of desires, will. And to fulfill that will he is getting a different type of body by the Supreme Will. He is willing, and the Supreme Will, God, Kṛṣṇa, understanding his will, giving him facility to accept a certain pattern of circumstances, body, to fulfill his particular desire. That is going on. Therefore this vāsanā, or will, is the cause of his material existence, constantly changing, and on account of changing will he is changing body. This is the complication of material existence. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to teach the living entity that as living being you must have desires. If your desires are stopped, then you become like stone. So you have to cleanse this desire, diseased form of desire. That is bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Now the desires are according to the upādhi, according to the body. A man gets the body of American, he thinks, "America is my home. American nation, they are my brother. American upliftment is my business," so on, so on. And as soon as it is changed, you are Chinese man, again he thinks, "I am Chinese." Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. He has to change. He has got the material body of a dog, he is barking, "I am dog. This is my business, to bark." So this is all desires. So these desires are temporary. By one desire I get one body, then I desire another body, another body, it is going. So therefore in one sense it is dream, that factually he cannot fulfill the desires, like dream. Yes. There are so many different circumstances. They are all temporary. So this, at night you dream, it is say for one hour or two hour. We…, nobody sees one kind of dream for two hours. Say even two hours, then finished, then another dream. So this change of body is also like a big dream. At night we dream, we forget everything about daily activities, and again when the dream is finished, again we come to this body and we do some things. So in that sense all material activities, subtle or gross, they are manifestation of different desires. Therefore the Māyāvādī philosophers, they say brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. The dreamer is fact, but the dream is false. That is one sense it is right. So our Vaiṣṇava philosophy is the same, that the dreamer is the living entity and the dream is temporary. Therefore the dreamer has to be brought to the real, spiritual platform so that these material dreams, either in day or night, they can be extinguished. That is nirvāṇa.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ

tat-paratvena nirmalam

hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-

sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate

[Cc. Madhya 19.170]

When we give up these dreaming facts and come to the real fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is bhakti. So activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, called bhakti, that is reality.

Hayagrīva: Schopenhauer writes, "Every keen pleasure is an error and an allusion, for no attached wish can give lasting satisfaction."

Prabhupāda: That is…

Hayagrīva: "And moreover, every possession and every happiness is but lent by chance for an uncertain time…"

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Hayagrīva: "…and may therefore be demanded back the next hour. All pain rests on the passing away of such allusion. Thus both arise from defective knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "The wise man therefore holds himself equally aloof from joy and sorrow, and no event disturbs his composure."

Prabhupāda: The other day, yesterday, I was explaining that this side good, this side bad, the same thing. Stool is stool. So this side or that side. But here in this material world, they are accepting this temporary or false, whatever you call, platform, and we are manufacturing in that false platform, temporary platform, "This is good, this is bad." Why? Where is the good and bad? They are all temporary, or false. We don't say false; we say temporary. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they say false. So that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that the pains and pleasure of this material world, it is experienced by the (indistinct). The spirit soul does not touch this. It is different. He is not concerned with this material, but he is illusioned that "This pains and pleasure is mine." Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises in the Bhagavad-gītā that this pains and pleasures, simply touching the skin, body. But I am not this body. That is the first instruction. The soul is not this body; therefore this pains and pleasure is on account of this body, material body. So Kṛṣṇa said,

mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyinaḥ anityāḥ

tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata

[Bg. 2.14]

So these are not reality. They come and go in due course, and we are, being too much absorbed in this material body, we feel pains and pleasure. But I am not this body; therefore one should be intelligent, that "This pains and pleasure is due to my bodily concept of life, and they come and go. Why should I bother about it? If I feel pain, let me tolerate and do my own business." That's all.

Hayagrīva: Schopenhauer's second book was entitled The World Is Will. He writes, "My body is the objectivity of my will. Besides will and idea, nothing is known to us or thinkable. But if we narrowly analyze the reality of this body and its actions, we find nothing in it except the will." And he goes on to state that "The genitals are properly the focus of the will, and consequently the opposite pole of the brain, which is the representative of knowledge. The former, that is the genitals, are the life sustaining principle and share an endless life to time. In this respect they were worshiped by the Greeks in the phallus and by the Hindus in the liṅgam, which are thus the symbol of the assertion of the will. Knowledge, on the other hand, affords the possibility of the suppression of willing, of salvation through freedom, of conquest and annihilation of the world."

Prabhupāda: Therefore that is bhakti. Sarvopādhi, this willing… Why? This willing is (indistinct), because this willing is according to the body. So I get one body and will again, we get another body. So I am willing, but I am. So I have now identified with this willing situation. That is my trouble. When I understand that I have nothing to do with this material world, with this, the production of my will, material will, and I am spiritual, so when I will spiritually, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted. Materially willing means I get different types of body, that's all. That is dream life. But what he says?

Hayagrīva: Well, he sees that the basis of life is sex.

Prabhupāda: He has to…

Hayagrīva: That this, that the will is asserted mainly due to sex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is material life.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is material life. That we say always that yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Here, those who are addicted to material world, their basic principle is maithuna, sex intercourse. So this strong desire for sex, that will continue so long you are in the material existence, because that is the center of all pleasure. But when we get taste of Kṛṣṇa pleasure we can give up this. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. By same superior pleasure they give up this inferior.

Hayagrīva: Well as, as to the nature of the world, Schopenhauer is vague, but he sees material life as basically irrational and whimsical.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Therefore you are changing body. Material mind is not fixed up; rejecting and accepting. This is going on. That Māyāvāda philosophers say as well. The Buddhists also say this material pains and pleasure is account to the material combination. It does not say material combination of this body. Soul is different, but he did not say because during his time they could not understand it. So he did not say that the…, there is soul, but he simply said that this body is combination of material thing; that is the cause of pains and pleasure. So dismantle it. Let earthly part of the body go to earth, watery part of the body, let it… Nirvāṇa, that is. Then I become zero, śūnyavādī. Because he does not get any information of the soul, he takes account of the body. Analyze the body and it is composition of earth, water, air, fire, like that. So when it is dismantled, then where is pains and pleasure? That is his philosophy, śūnyavāda, make it zero.

Hayagrīva: He sees the pleasure of the world as ultimately frustrating. Eternal becoming endless flux characterizes the revelation of the inner nature of will. Finally, the same thing shows itself in human endeavors and desires, which always delude us by presenting their satisfaction as the final end of will. As soon as we attain to them, they no longer appear the same. Therefore they soon grow stale or forgotten, and though not ultimately disowned, are yet always thrown aside as vanished illusions.

Prabhupāda: So this is going on. He is getting, therefore, different types of body.

Hayagrīva: He says we go…, there's a constant transition from desire to satisfaction and from satisfaction to a new desire, a rapid course of which is called happiness, and the slow course sorrow, and does not sink into that stagnation that shows itself in fearful boredom that paralyzes life. So it's this flux from desire to satisfaction that characterizes the will's activities in the phenomenal world. But for Schopenhauer, outside of all of this flux there is only…, the only solution is nirvāṇa or extinction.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. One has to study that willing and satisfaction of the willing. So behind this willing and satisfaction of willing there is the person who is willing. He does not take that person into consideration.

Hayagrīva: No.

Prabhupāda: He takes only that the willing and satisfaction willing, that is the only business. But he does not see the person who is willing. That is his defect.

Hayagrīva: Supreme Person.

Prabhupāda: Not Supreme Person.

Hayagrīva: The individual.

Prabhupāda: The individual, who is put in this temporary world, willing and satisfaction, but he is reality behind this willing and satisfaction. [break] So Schopenhauer's defect is that he does not see the, there is a person behind this willing; the individual soul, he is willing. So when he stops this flickering willing, then what is next, that he does not see. Nirvāṇa, stopping willing, of this nature of willing, temporary, one kind of willing, one kind of satisfaction, again another kind of willing… Behind this willing whimsically there is the spirit soul. So when the spirit comes to his real understanding of identification, that willing is pure willing. This willing is contaminated willing, material willing. So simply one should not be satisfied by stopping this whimsical willing, but when he comes to the real willing of the real person, that is spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Voluntary and complete chastity is the first step in asceticism or the denial of the will to live. It thereby denies the assertion of the will, which extends beyond the individual life and gives the assurance that with the life of the body, the will, whose manifestation it is, ceases."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Is this kind of extinction the purpose behind chastity?

Prabhupāda: Behind the willing activities there is a person who is willing. So simply by negation of this temporary willing will not help him. He has to will reality. That is eternal willing. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has been willing his sense satisfaction, material world, because he does not know there is another field of willing. So the same willing, when he will satisfy the senses of the Supreme, that is his eternal willing. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Because when he analyzes, comes to the real knowledge, he finds himself that he is eternal servant of God. As such, when willing will be concentrated how to serve God, that is his real position of life-eternity, knowledge and bliss. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: Although it appears that Schopenhauer does not believe in God, although his stand appears atheistic, he writes, "If a man fears death as his annihilation, it is just as if he were to think that the sun cries out at evening, 'Woe is me, for I go down to eternal night.' Thus even already, suicide appears to us as a vain and therefore a foolish action. When we have carried out our investigation further, it will appear to us in a still less favorable light."

Prabhupāda: Investigation of father, that means God.

Hayagrīva: The what?

Prabhupāda: Investigation, he says?

Hayagrīva: Oh, "When we have carried out our investigation further."

Prabhupāda: Further.

Hayagrīva: Yes, further, further. "More," "When we have investigated…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…further, it will appear to us in a still," that is suicide, "that death is not extinction."

Prabhupāda: Then after death there is life. As soon as there is life, there is desire, willing.

Hayagrīva: Yes. He says that so; therefore that's no solution. He says that death and life are integral.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: That they are comp…, they go together, death…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …and life.

Prabhupāda: Because the will is there, therefore death is not stoppage of life. He gets another life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So this proves that the life or the person who is willing, desiring, he is eternal, but he does not know what should be his eternal willing. That is his defect. So we are teaching this. His eternal willing is that he should always will to serve Kṛṣṇa. Then he will be happy.

Hayagrīva: As to the identity of life and death, he says, "The wisest of all philosophies, the Indian, expresses this by giving to the very God that symbolizes destruction, death, by giving, I say to Śiva, as an attribute not only the necklace of skulls but also the liṅgam, the symbol of generation, which appears here as the counterpart of death, thus signifying that generation and death are essentially correlatives which reciprocally neutralize and annul each other." So it's not death that is the solution.

Prabhupāda: Then what is?

Hayagrīva: What dies will be born again.

Prabhupāda: So what is the solution?

Hayagrīva: The solution is the annihilation of the will to live.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? So long the living entity is alive, he, he will will, some sort of willing. So that means the willing party, the living being, he is eternal, and the willing, this activity, has to be purified. Then his life will be happy. Willing cannot be stopped, because he is eternal. But he is wrongly willing; therefore he is unhappy. When he will come to the position of willing rightly, then he will be happy.

Hayagrīva: According to him, the man of knowledge is not disturbed in any condition. He says, "Such a man would regard death as a false allusion, an impotent specter which frightens the weak but has no power over him, who knows that he is himself the will of which the whole world is the objectification or copy, and that therefore he is always certain of life and also of the present." He goes on to say that he could not be terrified by an endless past or future in which he would not be, for this he would regard…

Prabhupāda: Then why does he want nirvāṇa? This is contradictory.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: One side he says nirvāṇa, and other side is that it is continued. When he could not understand the Indian philosophy, he is trying to address in his own way.

Hayagrīva: He speaks of Bhagavad-gītā. He says, "Kṛṣṇa thus raises the mind of His young pupil Arjuna. When seized with compunction at the sight of the arrayed host armies, he loses heart and desires to give up the battle in order to avert the death of so many thousands. Kṛṣṇa leads him to this point of view, and the death of those thousands can no longer restrain him. He gives the sign of battle." But was it actually Kṛṣṇa's assurance of immortality that brought Arjuna to fight?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immortality. So what is his philosophy of the immortal living being? As he is immortal, his willing business is also immortal. If he accepts the living being as immortal, how he can stop-nirvāṇa-his willing?

Hayagrīva: He seems to have no other solution other than the suppression of willing.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Suppression willing, that is not possible. He has to change the quality of willing; then he will be happy. And that is bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. The process of willing should be purified. Then he will be happy. And the process of purifying the willing is bhakti, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], chanting and hearing of the pastimes, all about the Lord. That will purify him. He is missing the point that he is individual, accepting that life is eternal, and still he wants, prefers this nirvāṇa. But he does not know what is nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means this kind of whimsical willing is troublesome. He has to stop this whimsical willing. He has to come to the standard willing. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: He looked on the Indian philosophy and religion as basically a philosophy of the denial of the will, and he gives several examples of religious…, of suicide as a religious act. He says especially when it…

Prabhupāda: That is, that is Māyāvāda. That is not… He did not study Indian philosophy and religion perfectly well. He simply has taken some portion of the Māyāvāda philosophy or Buddha philosophy, but he did not know about Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Hayagrīva: But he gives the example of…

Prabhupāda: Although he has touched Bhagavad-gītā…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: …he did not study Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, that in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that if you, by your living, what is called, knowledge, if you simply try to have full knowledge about Kṛṣṇa, then his willing, this material willing is purified, and after giving up this body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That he has not studied. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Either he did not study Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly or he could not understand for want of real spiritual master.

Hayagrīva: He couldn't understand devotion to Kṛṣṇa, that's for certain.

Prabhupāda: Because he did not study Bhagavad-gītā as it is recommended. The recommendation is that one should go to guru. And what kind of guru? Who has seen the truth practically. That he did not do. He is simply speculating on his own experience, and although everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, he could not see it. That is the defect.

Hayagrīva: As an example of suicide, he gives the…, he says that at the procession of Jagannātha in 1840, eleven Hindus threw themselves under the wheels and were instantly killed. And he also mentions the satī rituals of the woman throwing herself into the sacrificial fire, the fire of her husband's funeral pyre.

Prabhupāda: This is not suicide. This is… Our life is continuation, but on account of impure understanding we are getting different types of body and you are suffering different varieties of miseries. So this suicidal, this is not suicidal, that voluntarily accepting death, so that by dying, if he thinks of the spiritual life, he gets it. Just like Kulaśekhara, he has got a poetry that… In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante: [Bg. 8.6] we get next life according to the desire at the point of death. So generally, when death takes place, one sometimes remains in coma, all the bodily functions becomes defunct, he dreams in different ways and so on, so on. So he cannot dream or think independently. Therefore sometimes the intelligent class, they think that "If I meet death in sound health, then I can think of my next life, go back to home, back to Godhead, and I achieve it. Because at the time of death my thinking will be taken into consideration. So if by thinking of Jagannātha if I die, then I go back to Jagannātha."

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not suicide. That is voluntarily accepting death so that immediately he can return back to the spiritual world.

Hayagrīva: And that works?

Prabhupāda: What?

Hayagrīva: That's an actual…?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Caitanya Mahāprabhu-of course, that's different-threw Himself in the ocean, but that wasn't, that was probably…

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is an ecstasy.

Hayagrīva: That was different.

Prabhupāda: Different.

Hayagrīva: He speaks of the Indian religion, which demands the greatest sacrifices and which has yet remained so long in practice in a nation that embraces so many millions of persons cannot be arbitrarily invented superstition but must have its foundation in the nature of man. And he says that the religion has endured for more than four thousand years, despite the fact that the Hindu nation has been broken up into so many parts. But he sees the religion basically as a religion of the denial of will. But does the religion have its foundation in the nature of man?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the denial, both the… There are two kinds of sects: this Māyāvādī and the Vaiṣṇava. So both of them know that this material world is flickering, and sometimes they say it is false, unreal. So there is another life; that is spiritual world. So the Māyāvādī philosopher, their spiritual life means to merge into the Brahman effulgence, and the Vaiṣṇava philosopher to go back to Goloka Vṛndāvana, Vaikuṇṭha, where God is situated, and become His associate person. So both the ideas, spiritual ideas, that is attained after death. What does he say that is good about Hindus? He says that denial…

Hayagrīva: He sees it basically as a denial of the will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but denial of the will for material happiness. So we will not deny willing, that willing for spiritual happiness. That is required. As you deny something, you must accept something; otherwise… You cannot remain in the neutral position. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nirvatanta. When you get a better position, then you give up this willing for lower position.

Hayagrīva: The… He speaks of the sannyāsī, who lives without a dwelling and entirely without property, who is advised not to lay down often under the same tree least he should acquire a preference or inclination for it above other trees. The Christian mystic and the teacher of the Vedānta philosophy agree in this respect also, that they both regard all outward works and religious exercises as superfluous for him who has attained to perfection. Isn't this the viewpoint of the Māyāvādī, and doesn't Kṛṣṇa recommend the lighting of the sacrificial fire even after one has attained perfection?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā na tyājam. Because if he gives up this ritualistic ceremony, then there is chance of falling down. So even though he is liberated, to keep his position secure he should continue these three things: sacrifice, charity, and austerity.

Hayagrīva: He speaks of sleep. He said, "The need for sleep is directly proportionate to the intensity of the brain life, thus the clearness of the consciousness. Those animals whose brain life is weak and dull sleep little and lightly, for example reptiles and fishes. Animals of considerable intelligence sleep deeply and long. Men also require more sleep the more developed both as regards quantity and quality, and the more active their brain is. The more completely awake a man is, the clearer and more lively his consciousness, the greater for him is the necessity of sleep, thus the deeper and longer he sleeps."

Prabhupāda: Those who are ignorant and materially covered, they sleep more. Those who are spiritually enlightened, they sleep less. Sleep is the necessity of the body, not of the soul. So those who are advanced in the platform of spiritual identity, they do not require sleeping, as we find from the life of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **: they conquered over sleeping, eating, mating. That is spiritual life. To sleep is waste of time, so those who are actually interested in spiritual life, they adjust life in such a way that almost they sleep nil.

Hayagrīva: Arjuna was praised as Gudakesa?

Prabhupāda: Guḍākeśa, who has conquered over sleeping.

Hayagrīva: It appears that Schopenhauer recommends about eight hours of sleep a night, and Kṛṣṇa says not too much or too little. But what is recommended in terms of sleep, just concretely?

Prabhupāda: Sleep should be avoided, but that is not possible. Therefore it should be adjusted to the minimum. Just like Gosvāmīs, they are sleeping not less, not more than two hours. Even we hear about some karmī, just like Napoleon, he was also not sleeping. He was taking rest on the back of the horse. I do not know whether it is so.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But I know about Gandhi. He was sleeping when he is parking his car, because he was so busy.

Hayagrīva: (laughing) He gives some examples of men, of philosophers who slept a great deal. Maybe because they speculated so hard they had to sleep more.

Prabhupāda: No. Sleeping too much is bad in all circumstances. So, stop the machine. Stop this machine. Tomorrow is good. [break]

Hayagrīva: In The Ages of Life, Schopenhauer writes, "A complete and adequate notion of life can never be attained by anyone who does not reach old age, for it is only the old man who sees life whole and knows its natural course. It is only he who is acquainted, and this is most important, not only with its entrance, like the rest of mankind, but with its exit too, so that he alone has a full sense of its utter vanity, while the others never cease to labor under the false notion that everything will come right in the end.

Prabhupāda: I could not follow. Old man is perfect?

Hayagrīva: No. But an old man can see the course of life, can see life in its entirety, the ages…

Prabhupāda: As far as different, old men have got different experience. We have seen in Western countries old men, they still follow the path of sense gratification. So where is his experience? Unless there is training, simply to become old man is not sufficient. Training is required. Old man, actual old man should take renunciation. That is Vedic plan. At the end of life one should become a sannyāsa and completely devote his time and energy to understand and serve God. So unless there is training from the very beginning as brahmacārī, simply by age one is not mature. That is not correct.

Hayagrīva: He says it's customary to call youth happy and age the sad part of life. This would be true if it were the passions that made a man happy. Youth…

Prabhupāda: Happy, happiness to the modern standard means sense gratification. So that sense gratification continues even in old man. So actually he requires training and acquirement of knowledge. There is a word in Sanskrit, vidya tam (indistinct). One can become old man even without age. That means it is knowledge that is counted, not the age.

Hayagrīva: There's an expression, "The old fool."

Prabhupāda: Old fool, yes.

Hayagrīva: An old goat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he is not educated properly, he remains a old fool. Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says, "In one of the Vedic Upaniṣads, the natural length of human life is put down at one hundred years, and I believe this to be right. I have observed, as a matter of fact, that it is only people who exceed the age of ninety who attain euthanasia, who die, that is to say, of no disease, apoplexy, or convulsion, and pass away without agony of any sort. To come to one's end before the age of ninety means to die of disease, in other words, prematurely."

Prabhupāda: Yes, the maximum age in this millennium is hundred years, but formerly they used to live for thousand years. Before that they used to live for ten thousand years, and before that they used to live for one hundred thousands of years. So nowadays we don't think even they are going up to hundred years, even not ninety years.

Hayagrīva: Sixty, sixty-seven.

Prabhupāda: Sixty-seven is the average. The more one becomes sensuous, the duration of life is lessened. That is the law of nature.

Hayagriva: So that's all on Schopenhauer. (end)

DARWIN.HAY

Charles Darwin

Hayagrīva: This is Darwin. Darwin's conception of evolution rests on the contention that there is a real genetic change from generation to generation. In other words, Darwin rejects the platonic igos. Igos is the Greek for idea, type or essence. There is no human igos, human type or essence. There are no fixed species. This is in contradistinction to the platonic idea that the species exist in essence or, as Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, bījam, "I am the seed of all existences." Darwin would not recognize any bījam, or seed, particular type for any species. Rather, he sees shifting, evolving physical forms constantly changing.

Prabhupāda: The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves. It is the soul within the body-he evolves, transmigrates from one body to another. Just we see that a child becomes a boy. The…, if the child is dead, it no more evolves. So it is the soul that is concerned. The soul is within the body, and he desires and evolves. That is Vedic conception and that is life. For example, if a man is within an apartment, the man desires to change the apartment to another apartment, it does not mean that the apartment evolves, but the man desires a change, and he goes to different apartment. That is (indistinct). So Darwin has no such conception. He has described the idea of evolution from the Vedas in his own way.

Hayagrīva: At first Darwin was a Christian, but his faith in the existence of a personal God dwindled, and he finally wrote, "The whole subject"-that is the subject of religion, or God-"is beyond the scope of man's intellect. The mystery of the beginning of things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic. I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free, so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as facts are shown to be opposed to it." So he didn't argue against Plato or Descartes or Kant or any other philosopher, but he simply presented what evidence he had amassed during a five…, only a five-year voyage, on a British freighter, oh, from 1831 to 1836. But what is considered important is that his book, The Origin of Species, marks what they call the emancipation of science from philosophy.

Prabhupāda: What is that, emancipation?

Hayagrīva: That is to say he simply presented what material he found-that is the fossils. He investigated certain life forms on these island during this trip and theorized about evolution.

Prabhupāda: That is philosophic; that is not scientific. He found something and he based his thesis on that. He cannot find out all the bodies, because there are, at the end, some section, some sect they burn the body. So how he can get information of their body, burned? So his theory is not at all scientific. It is always defective.

Hayagrīva: He spent the rest of his life writing about the material he gathered during this five-year voyage, which is a very short time. And according to his theory of natural selection, the best and the fittest survived. If this is the case, the race will necessarily steadily improve.

Prabhupāda: What does he mean by survive? What is the meaning of his dictionary, "survive"? Nobody survives.

Hayagrīva: Well, by that he means that the strong pass on their hereditary characteristics to their offspring, and that the race…, no individual survives, but that the race improves. But isn't this contradicted by the Vedas? In the present Kali… For instance, Arjuna's physical powers, prowess, was much greater, and that was, what, five thousand years ago. So isn't, instead of improving, instead of the race improving in strength and other qualities, isn't it actually…

Prabhupāda: They are degrading.

Hayagrīva: …degenerating. What is the cause of man's physical, mental and spiritual deterioration in the succeeding yugas?

Prabhupāda: That is education. Every individual person, he is a soul, and he has got a particular type of body. Especially in the human body he requires education. What is this animal and what is higher than human race, these are Vedic description. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and the body is being evolved. The body is machine, and the individual soul desires and he gets a suitable body made by material nature under the order of God. This is Vedic idea, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is existing within the core of everyone's heart, and the individual soul is desiring something, and upon the order God he is given a machine made by material nature. So this is evolution, and even a man, although he is human form of body, he can again degenerate to animal form of body according to his desire. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. He has to change the body, and the body is changed according to his work and desire. In the animal kingdom they have also desires, but they are under the laws of nature changing body, and one is given the chance to become a human being, and then he may desire, and according to his desires he gets the next body. If he likes, he can go higher forms of life, and if he degenerates he goes lower form of life.

Hayagrīva: But as the yugas progress, the human body itself, doesn't it become more degraded?

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by degraded? He has got human body, but by his work and by his desire he can get next life a demigod's body or a dog's body. That will depend on his activities. Human body is meant for understanding God and act accordingly to go back to home, back to Godhead. But if he does not utilize this human form of body properly, if he remains on the platform of animal propensities and degenerates, then he goes…, he can become next life a dog, a cat. There are two things: elevation or degeneration.

Hayagrīva: In The Descent of Man Darwin writes, "The belief in God has often been advanced as not only the greatest but the most complete of all the distinctions between man and the lower animals. It is, however, impossible to maintain that this belief is instinctive in man. The idea of a universal and beneficent creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man until he has been elevated by long, continued culture."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The culture is important. If he gets the chance of cultured association, then he elevates. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If he, according to his cultural life, he can go to the higher planetary system, he can remain where he is, he can degrade, and he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore culture is very important in human form of life.

Hayagrīva: He further writes, "He who believes in the advancement of man from some low organized form will naturally ask, 'How does this bear on the belief in the immortality of the soul?' " He says, "At what precise period does a man become an immortal being?" That is to say, he doesn't know at what stage the immortal soul inhabits the species.

Prabhupāda: Yes, soul is always important. He is put into different bodies. That is the defect of Darwin's knowledge. He does not know about the soul. So the existence of soul, to understand this is the first education. One who does not know this, he remains animal, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13], if one continues the bodily concept of life without any understanding of the soul. And it is very easy to understand that the child is becoming boy, a boy is becoming young man. So the soul is there, and we remember that "I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man." So I continue to exist, the bodily changes, and this is confirmed in every Vedic scripture, and that is the beginning of knowledge. If one does not understand how the soul is changing body, he remains on the level of cats and dogs.

Hayagrīva: He does…, he says he doesn't know at what point the soul enters, but the soul is in anything that moves. Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Even a…

Prabhupāda: The soul moves.

Hayagrīva: …bacteria for instance, or an ant.

Prabhupāda: So ant moves because there is soul; the bacteria moves there because there is soul. Similarly, the man moves because there is soul. An animal moves because there is soul.

Hayagrīva: And every soul is immortal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So that's all, on Darwin. [break] This is an appendix to the Darwin. In 1925 the Tennessee legislature passed the Butler Act, forbidding the teaching of Darwinism, Darwinian evolution, in the public schools of that state. In May, John Thomas Scopes, a science teacher at Dayton High School, consented to be the defendant in a court test of the law. He was arrested and indicted by a Grand Jury and stood trial on July 1925.

Prabhupāda: Why he was arrested?

Hayagrīva: For teaching Darwinism. For teaching that man descended from the apes.

Prabhupāda: So he was teaching, and the government arrested him?

Hayagrīva: The government, the American government, arrested, yes. The Tennessee legislature arrested him. He was arrested and defended by Clarence Darrow, famous trial lawyer, and the prosecutor was William Jennings Bryan, who was a thrice defeated Presidential candidate. So they discussed evolution and religion and how they could co-exist, and Scopes, who was teaching Darwinian evolution, claimed, "All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship almighty God according to the dictates of his own conscience. No human authority can in any case whatever control or interfere with the rights of conscience, and that no preference should ever be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of worship."

Prabhupāda: This is, this worship and the concept of worship, if actually one believes or knows, so the real worship is that which pleases God. If you manufacture… Just like I want a glass of water, and if my servant gives me a glass of hot milk, is that worship? Worship means what I want, if you give me, then I am satisfied. But if I want a cold glass of water, you give me…, if you think, "No. Milk is better than water," so that, will that satisfy me? So these concocted ideas of worshiping will actually satisfy God, that is wrong theory, that one can worship God according to his own dictation. That means his God is fictitious. He has no idea of God. And he can concoct ideas. But actually if there is God, one should worship according to the dictation of God. But if he does not know what is God, what is the dictation of God, then he is a rascal. What is the use of his so-called worship? It may be to some extent a sentiment, but that is not worship. If you want to worship God, you must worship God according to His dictation. That is real worship. How he can manufacture the way of worship?

Hayagrīva: The prosecutor…

Prabhupāda: What will be the answer? If you want to worship God, you must worship according to the dictation of God. If you have no such dictation, if you have no idea of God, then how you can worship God? You can worship a ghost, according unto you. If freedom is given to your conception, then you can worship a dog instead of God, because you do not know what is God and what God wants you to do. So without the conception of God, real, how one can worship God by whimsical ideas?

Hayagrīva: This has always been a very touchy subject in the schools.

Prabhupāda: This is the real subject.

Hayagrīva: In the schools, now in the United States, the schools are not even allowed to mention God, not even allowed to mention God.

Prabhupāda: That means that is frustration. They could not get the idea of God. This is frustration. This kind of conclusion means they try to understand God, but there was no proper understanding of God, so they have given up the idea of understanding God. So frustration, rejection by frustration is not success. The best thing is they should learn about God from God and do accordingly. That is success. So we are preaching the message of God, and people should take to it to understand God and worship Him. That is success.

Hayagrīva: Bryan, the prosecutor, chastised the Darwinists for not telling us where life began and at the same time speaking of evolution. He says, "They do not dare to tell you that it began with God and ended with God. Darwin says, 'In the beginning of all things is a mystery insoluble by us.' He does pretend to say how these things started." And he goes on…

Prabhupāda: That means imperfect knowledge. We say that material world is creation, and within the material world the living entities are allowed to act. So the living entities coming from God; therefore He says bījo aham. So God… Just like our life begins from the womb of the mother, but the father gives the bīja. The mother's womb cannot produce itself; then there was no need of father. The father gives the bīja and the mother gives the body. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of God, is put into the material nature, and according to his desire the material nature gives him a body. That is the beginning. Very simple thing. But these people, on account of insufficient knowledge they cannot understand what is the beginning, either Darwin or the opposite. This is the beginning. The material nature is created by God, and the living entities, who are part and parcel of God, desire to enjoy this material nature, so God impregnated material nature with the living entities. This is the beginning.

Hayagrīva: Bryan had the…

Prabhupāda: Who can say against this statement of Vedas? This is the beginning of life. But none of them, both the contending parties, had clear idea what is the beginning. This is the beginning.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Bryan had difficulty in attacking Darwinism because he based his arguments…

Prabhupāda: Darwin says he does not know the beginning.

Hayagrīva: He based his arguments strictly on the Bible, Bryan. This is not Darwin, but the prosecutory.

Prabhupāda: What they… What is the beginning of Bible?

Hayagrīva: And he, he was ridiculed, Bryan, for his fundamental…, for his fundamentalism. The Bible says, "And God said let us make man in our image," etc. "God created man in His own image, and the image of God created He him," etc., and the Bible fixes the creation at about six thousand years ago, but science fixes, oh, ancient civilizations of China and India, oh, six thousand, seven thousand years ago, much… And the Vedas deal with a much, much broader time span.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So…

Prabhupāda: So it is not the question of…

Hayagrīva: …it was extremely difficult for Bryan to maintain any kind of prosecution with these…

Prabhupāda: But because both, we say that both of them are ignorant about the beginning. So if both of them are ignorant, so either you say six thousand, seven thousand, or six million, this is all imagination. It is not fact. But the six thousand or seven thousand, that is not the fact-millions and millions of years. But the fact is this, that God created this cosmic manifestation, and He impregnated the living entities to appear in different types of body according to the soul's desire. That I have already explained. The soul… "Man proposes; God disposes." Not only human form of life but all the animal forms of life, they are also from the very beginning. Not like Darwin's theory that there was no human form of life in the beginning. That is a wrong theory. All the forms of life were there, and the, actually the body is external; within the body there is the soul. So the body is created by material nature and the soul is part and parcel of God. This is the real idea. So how they can refute this idea if they have no idea about the beginning of life?

Hayagrīva: It was very difficult on the basis of the Bible. The Vedas date the creation back, oh…

Prabhupāda: That it is a question of time, and it is the beginning.

Hayagrīva: The beginning of the creation was when? No…

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of when. It may be seven thousand years or seven millions of years, but the beginning should be taken like this, that God created this cosmic manifestation. And wherefrom the living entities came? That also came from God. That is explained clearly in the Bhagavad-gītā, that this material creation is composition of earth, water, air, fire…, like that, that this is also God's energy. The ingredients of this material world coming from God, that is called prakṛti and pradhāna. He is the creator. And then the living entities, they are also coming from God. So this material energy is explained as inferior energy, and the living entity is explained as superior energy, both of them coming from God. So the beginning of life simultaneously. It is not that matter later on developed to become life. That is a wrong theory.

Hayagrīva: So, so much… It's the end of Darwin. [break] …Thomas, Thomas Henry…

Prabhupāda: In that case, all defect is that nobody could ascertain the beginning of life, but here is the solution. The beginning of life is from the very beginning of creation.

Hayagrīva: Simultaneous creation.

Prabhupāda: Simultaneously. That we see practically. That pregnancy, in the beginning of the body that is the beginning of life also. No that first of all one becomes pregnant and then the life comes. You have got a daily experience. Rather, the life is there, therefore the pregnancy is there. Is it not? But they say, modern rascals, that the, the body develops to a certain extent and then the life comes. So before the life coming, if the body is destroyed there is no killing. Is not that the theory at the present moment, they are killing child?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But these foolish persons, they do not know that the body grows provided there is life; otherwise it does not grow. So life and body together. (end)

HUXLEY.HAY

Thomas Henry Huxley

Hayagrīva: This is Thomas Henry Huxley. Huxley felt that the main difference between man and the animals is the ability to speak. Now, is…

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of another nonsense. Everyone speaks in his own language. What does he…, what he means by speak?

Hayagrīva: But isn't speech, which is the articulation of the intellect, the primary difference between man and the animals in the sense that is it not through words that one can come to understand God?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but the animal has a, his own language, as the human being has his own language. So why does he say that? When he speaks, he speaks from the very beginning in his own language.

Hayagrīva: Well he, he, he mentions speech as being "Intelligible, rational speech…"

Prabhupāda: They have got rational speech.

Hayagrīva: "…that accumulates and organizes experience which is almost lost with the cessation of indi…, with every individual life in other animals." In other words, man has a history due to language, but animals may be able to articulate certain basic facts to one another, but they have no culture or history.

Prabhupāda: Then those who speak in Sanskrit language, they are only human beings; all other animals. If he says like that, Sanskrit language is the oldest…

Hayagrīva: It is the oldest.

Prabhupāda: …mother of all language, and one who speaks in Sanskrit, he is only perfect, all other animals, according to his theory. But Mr. Huxley does not speak in Sanskrit.

Hayagrīva: Well, we'll see. He read quite a bit. I don't know if he read in Sanskrit or English, but he read quite a bit of the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: No, why does he say that the language, he gives that…

Hayagrīva: Probably not.

Prabhupāda: …everyone has his language. It does not mean that the animals have no language. They have got their own language. The birds have their own language, the Englishmen have their own language, the Indians have their own language. So there are different varieties of life, and each one has his own language.

Hayagrīva: Although Huxley was called…

Prabhupāda: Language is not the important. The education is important. A developed human being can take real education, while the animals are not able to take. That you can define. It is not the question of language. Knowledge can be imparted, in particular knowledge, a language, just like we are imparting Vedic knowledge in English. So it is not the language, it is the knowledge. But the animals cannot take the knowledge of God. That is their defective. But a human form of body or a human being, it doesn't matter in what language he speaks, but if the knowledge of God is properly imparted in him, then he can understand. The dog cannot understand. That is the difference.

Hayagrīva: Huxley, although an evolutionist, and although he was called Darwin's bulldog, he differed with Darwin, especially on the theory of the survival of the fittest. He believed in the survival of those who are ethically the best.

Prabhupāda: That is…, that can be said fittest. "Best" and "fittest," where is the difference?

Hayagrīva: He says the strongest, the most self-assertive, tend to tread down the weaker.

Prabhupāda: First thing is what do they mean by survival?

Hayagrīva: Well, the continuance of a culture.

Prabhupāda: That is going on. Every culture is continued. The Vedic culture is there and other cultures are also there. It is continuing.

Hayagrīva: He says the influence of the cosmic process on the evolution of society is greater the more rudimentary its civilization. Social progress means a checking of the cosmic process at every step, and the substitution for it of another, which may be called the ethical process.

Prabhupāda: So the difference…

Hayagrīva: The cosmic process is the process of creation, maintenance and ultimate annihilation. He says this can be checked by a…, an ethical culture.

Prabhupāda: The cosmic process cannot be checked, but the cosmic process is continuing in different modes. That is called tri-guṇa. One process is the process of goodness, another process is the process of passion, another process is process of ignorance. So in the process of goodness, real advancement goes on, and ultimately one has to transcend the process of goodness also and come to the platform which is all-good. In the material world, whichever process you accept, it is mixed, both goodness, passion and ignorance. It is very difficult in the material way of life to keep the process pure. Therefore the real process is gradually bring the being or the soul to the platform of goodness and then transcend also goodness and keep him or let him remain in the actual platform of pure goodness. That is wanted. That is really progress. That pure goodness is bhakti. When the transaction is only with God-there is no other transaction-that is pure goodness. That is survival of the fittest. When one comes to that platform of pure goodness, he survives. Otherwise nobody survives. When… Everyone has to change the body-this body to that body, that, tathā dehāntara-prāp… But one who comes to the pure goodness platform, he understands God, then he hasn't got to change. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is survival; otherwise there is no meaning of survival. They do not know what is this survival. Survival means that when the soul remains pure, in his original position, does not change body, that is survival. In the spiritual world there is no more change, so that is survival. And in the material world there is change. That is not survival. So they do not know what is the meaning of survival. If there is change, there is no survival. Everyone has to change the body.

Hayagrīva: Well, that sort of negates the rest of this.

Prabhupāda: So survival is explained?

Hayagrīva: The rest of this doesn't survive (laughing).

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Now what do you think, individually?

Hayagrīva: Oh, I…, he said Huxley looks on civilization as something of an attempt to give order to nature. "Civilization might be defined as a complex ethical understanding between men enabling as many men as possible to survive."

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Nature is so strong that either you become Huxley or Einstein or somebody else, you must die. That is nature's law. You cannot dictate nature. The nature will go on dictating to you; then you must die. That is the… There is no question of survival under the regulation of the material nature. There is no… When you go above the dictation of the material nature, then you survive. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. When one realizes Brahman understanding, then he survives; otherwise there is no survival.

Hayagrīva: Well, Huxley is typically British. He wrote in…

Prabhupāda: He is a British or Frenchman?

Hayagrīva: Huxley, no, he was English, Englishman.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: He says, "By the Ganges ethical man admits that the cosmos is too strong for him…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…and destroying every bond which ties him to it by ascetic discipline he seeks salvation in absolute renunciation."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says…, but he says, "This attempt to escape from evil has ended in flight from the battlefield." He doesn't advocate this for an Englishman. In a typically British manner he quotes Alfred Lord Tennyson. He says, "We are grown men and must play the man strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."

Prabhupāda: Rascal, at last you die. (laughter) You do not like to yield, but the nature kicks on your face and says you must die. That he does not like.

Hayagrīva: Well, at any rate he's dead now, so…

Prabhupāda: So therefore he is…, he is not surviving. He was…

Hayagrīva: He admits, he says, "This seems…"

Prabhupāda: Either you be Englishman or Frenchman or this man, you cannot survive. You have to succumb under the dictation of the superior nature. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that-I think Huxley read Bhagavad-gītā; he does not know-that,

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

This kind of conception, that "I shall survive, I am Englishman," this is a false egotism and bewildered soul. Whatever he may be, Englishman or this man or that man, he must die. That is the law of nature. So intelligent man first of all makes provision "How I shall not die." That is real business of human being. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if one simply understands Kṛṣṇa, then he survives; otherwise one has to die. There is no doubt. Nobody can…

Hayagrīva: Huxley did appear to have…, to adhere to the doctrine of transmigration. He says, "The doctrine of transmigration constructs a plausible indication of the ways of the cosmos to man. Every sentient being is reaping as it has sown, if not in this life then in one or other of the infinite series of antecedent existences of which it is the latest turn." In Evolution and Ethics he writes about brahman and ātmān and liberation. He says, "The earlier forms of Indian philosophy agreed with those prevalent in our times, and supposing the existence of a permanent reality or substance beneath the shifting series of phenomena, whether of matter or of mind, the substance of the cosmos was brahman, that of individual man ātmān, and the latter, that is ātmān, was separated from brahman only by its…"

Prabhupāda: That is also not. He is not separated. He is, brahman and ātmān, they are existing, co-existing, and that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the chapter "Kṣetra and Kṣetrajña." The body is the field, and the ātmā, individual soul, is the owner of the field or the worker in the field. So it is also said there is another owner, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ vidhi. As the individual is working in the body, similarly, there is another soul working in the body. So what is the difference between the two? The two is different that the individual soul knows only about his own body, but the other soul, Supersoul, He knows everything of every body. That is the difference. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body. But this Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of this body, of that body, of millions and millions of bodies. That is the difference between the two souls. But the two souls are there. One is called Supersoul, paramātmā, and the individual soul is called ātmā. So ātmā and paramātmā are there. The difference between them is that ātmā knows about his own body and the paramātmā knows everything of all bodies. That is the difference.

Hayagrīva: His understanding was the understanding of the Sankarites, that the ātmā is imprisoned in the body. When the man is enlightened and sees apparent reality as mere illusion, the bubble of illusion will burst, and the freed individual ātmān will lose itself in the universal brahman.

Prabhupāda: Then that does not mean that the ātmā becomes the paramātmā. Just like a drop of water, you put into the sea, it mixes with the sea. It is not mixing. Now suppose it is mixing, but that does not mean that the drop of water has become the sea. He is mixed with the seawater, but that, that does not mean he is the sea. He was not sea before, and after dropping him in the sea, he remains as what he was, but he is mixed up in the sea. Just like an airplane is flying, you see, and going higher and higher, and going very high you do not see. That doesn't mean the airplane is lost. You do not see. So these Sankarites' proposal is defective. Just like a green bird enters a tree but you do not see the bird anymore. You simply foolishly think that he has become one with the tree. But that is foolishness. He keeps his individuality, but your defective eyes cannot see him anymore. The Sankarite theory is like that, a defective understanding, that the individual soul merges into the Supreme. He keeps always his individuality. The foolish man cannot see how he has merged or existing.

Hayagrīva: He says, "There is no external power which could affect the sequence of cause and effect which gives rise to karma. None but the will of the subject of the karma which could put an end to it." Now by willing to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, the individual allows Kṛṣṇa to put an end to his karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Is that…? So Kṛṣṇa is called Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our idea is(?) that is Mukunda.

Hayagrīva: So Huxley has no idea that, of the, of this.

Prabhupāda: I said, I said this, that Kṛṣṇa is therefore called Mukunda.

Hayagrīva: You said that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think this is my statement.

Hayagrīva: Yes. No, this isn't Huxley.

Prabhupāda: Huxley said…

Hayagrīva: Huxley says, "This salvation of liberation from karma was to be attained through knowledge and by action based on that knowledge." The supernatural, in our sense of the term, is entirely excluded.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are acting under certain designation, that just like Mr. Huxley said a few minutes before, that "We are Englishmen." So this is designation. So, so long you will work under designation, there is no freedom. Because under false impression that "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "Let me work in this way," that means you are entangling himself, yourself into some other way, so that today you are Englishman, next day you may be Frenchman or dog's man, that you are entangling yourself. But when you give up this designation, that "I am no man, no other's man, but I am Kṛṣṇa's man," then you will save yourself. Otherwise… Therefore to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, conscious, is actual platform of freedom from karma.

Hayagrīva: So that there's no question of independent liberation?

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yajña-arthāt karma. Only for yajña or Kṛṣṇa you should work. Yajña-arthāt karma, anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Otherwise you are entangled. This is freedom, to work for Kṛṣṇa; then you are not under entanglement. This is…, there are many practical examples. Just that a soldier, he is killing, his business is killing, and the more he kills he gets recognition. But as soon as he kills one man on his own account, he is murderer. Just like when… The soldier's business is to kill, and so long he is killing for the satisfaction of his state, of the government, he is getting recognition medals. The same soldier, as soon as he kills one man for his own sense satisfaction, he is a murderer, he is to be hanged. This is the karma-bandhanaḥ. The business the same-killing. But one killing is on the order of the state and one killing is for his sense gratification. So killing business is the same, but the position is different. Similarly, when you act for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma-bandhanaḥ; that is freedom. And when you act for yourself, that is karma-bandhanaḥ. That is the teaching of Bhagavad-gītā throughout. Arjuna was thinking, "Killing, and suffer the sinful activities," because he was thinking on account of himself. But when he understood that "I am induced to kill on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants this fight," then he accepted Kṛṣṇa's proposal. That is not karma-bandhanaḥ. That is not killing. One has to understand this.

Hayagrīva: Now there is one interesting point that Huxley makes in Evolution and Ethics. He tries to tie in the theory of karma with the theory of evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He writes in this way: "In the theory of evolution the tendency of a germ to develop according to a certain specific type, for instance of a kidney bean seed to grow into a plant having all the characters of Phaseolus vulgaris," that is a kidney bean, "that is its karma. The snowdrop is a snowdrop and not an oak tree-and just that kind of snowdrop-because it is the outcome of the karma of an endless series of past existences."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karma… That is called karma-bandhanaḥ: one after another, one after another, one after another, it is going on. So if this evolutionary process one comes to the form of human being, then he is allowed the discrimination to decide whether he shall continue in this karma-bandhanaḥ process or he should stop his karma-bandhanaḥ process and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa then his karma-bandhanaḥ process stopped, and if he does not, then he is again put into the karma-bandhanaḥ process by the laws of nature.

Hayagrīva: So he does appear at least a little closer than Darwin, because Darwin didn't recognize any of this transmigration at all.

Prabhupāda: Darwin, he is all through. Everyone is more or less. Unless one has got the right knowledge… Why Darwin? Everyone is under false impression. Therefore our proposition is that you take right knowledge from the right person, Kṛṣṇa, then you are perfect. And if you go on speculating-you speculate in one way, I speculate in another way-it does not mean that we are intelligent person.

Hayagrīva: The, Huxley, it was Huxley who coined the word "agnostic," as the opposite of gnostic, of church history. The word gnostic is "one who follows in the gnostic tradition of church history."

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic, nāstika word is there, nāstika.

Hayagrīva: Gnostic.

Prabhupāda: Nāstika means who does not believe in the Vedas.

Hayagrīva: Ol, this is different: gnostic.

Prabhupāda: Nāstika, it is gnostic.

Hayagrīva: This is gnost…, (sic:) N-O-S-T-I-C. Gnostic is one in the gnostic tradition, or in the church tra…, in the tradition of the Christian Church, and ag…, he used the word a-nost, agnostic. So this word was coined by… Coined.

Prabhupāda: What does, what is the meaning of ag?

Hayagrīva: That means, well, like there's dharma and there's adharma, that is, er, "not." "Not," a, meaning "not."

Prabhupāda: Against, against.

Hayagrīva: As theism and atheism.

Prabhupāda: That means against; ag means against.

Hayagrīva: Yeah, against. But according to him, agnosticism holds that man shouldn't assert what he calls a truth without logically satisfactory evidence.

Prabhupāda: We say "without any authority."

Hayagrīva: When Huxley became a Darwinist he rejected a supernatural God and the Bible. In For Argument from Design… He believed in, previously he believed in a Christian God as the designer, but he believed that Darwin's theory gave this Christian conception its death blow. He did not accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical… Excuse me. He did accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical with nature. That is, he saw God as nature, and he believed in the divine government of the universe. He believed that the cosmic process is rational, not random…

Prabhupāda: How it becomes rational?

Hayagrīva: …but he rejected a personal God concerned with morality.

Prabhupāda: That is his defect. The nature is dead body, matter. So how it can be rational? Just like this table is a dead wood. How it can be rational? That is nonsense. The carpenter is rational, who has made the wood in the shape. So he says the nature is rational. Nature is dead matter. How it can be rational? Therefore there is a rational being behind the nature. That is God. This, the wood, is dead. The wood, out of its own accord, cannot become a table. The carpenter is shaping the wood into table. That is rational. Therefore behind the dead nature, the rational being is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. I think Mr. Huxley is supposed to have read…, understand he has given some comment on the Ramakrishna Mission Bhagavad-gītā, but he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly.

Hayagrīva: Oh, that's his son, his grandson.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: That's Aldous, Aldous Huxley.

Prabhupāda: Uh-huh.

Hayagrīva: And this is Thomas Henry Huxley.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: It's a very famous English family of many…

Prabhupāda: So anyway, we…

Hayagrīva: That's his grandson was, uh…

Prabhupāda: So this Thomas Huxley, how he says that the nature has rational, has knowledge? We don't find. A dead stone, maybe big mountain, but has it got rationality? How does he say that the nature has rationality? What is the basis?

Hayagrīva: Well, it's the pantheistic, it's the same pantheistic contention that God is…, God is impersonal and made the tree grow.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. "Impersonal," "personal," that we shall consider, but God is sentient. He is all-pervasive. That is accepted. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. That's all right. But God is not like the dead matter, who has no sense. We don't find the dead matter has got rationality. The rationality behind the dead matter is God.

Hayagrīva: That's it on Huxley. (end)

BERGSON.HAY

Henri Bergson

Hayagrīva: This is Henri Bergson, additional notations. [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda? If you could move. I don't think it would be good to have something between me and the microphone, because it might… Nothing between me and the microphone.

Hari-śauri: Well, can we do this?

Hayagrīva: Close? Oh, all right. Bergson maintained that God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience. The creative effort is of God, if it is not God Himself. Knowledge of God leads to activity not passivity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge of God is activity. Just like bhakti, we are twenty-four hours active, not that we are meditating on. So it is service. God says that anyone who preaches this message of Bhagavad-gītā, that is activity. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, that you, all of you, become guru. To become guru means activity, to train the disciples. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is full of activity for giving, rendering service to God, Kṛṣṇa. It is activity.

Hayagrīva: The word…, the word "mystic" is not a very clear word. It can mean so many different things. When he says God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience, one doesn't really know what this means.

Prabhupāda: No, mystical… One who does not know God, for him it is mystical, but one who knows God, he takes orders from God. This is defined, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], means favorably working for satisfaction of God. But if one's idea of God is not clear, he thinks it is mystical, but one who has got clear idea of God, clear order from God, then it is not mystical but it is practical.

Hayagrīva: He believed that mystics-he uses the words "mystics," not-mystics participate in God's love for mankind and aid the divine purpose.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the…

Hayagrīva: This is the real meaning of creative evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is in ignorance due to long separation from God. In the material world the living entity has forgotten his relationship with God; therefore his activities are only sense gratification, like the animals. And when he is given lesson, instruction how to become God conscious, how to love God, that is activity, and that is real life. Otherwise it is animal life. The religion is a kind of faith, sentiment, but when the religious system is understood on the basis of good logic and philosophy, that becomes perfect understanding of God. Without philosophy, religious understanding is sentiment. That sentiment does not help anyone very much. It continues for some time, then people become disinterested in the matter of religion. So religion means, as it is stated in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, how one has learned to love God. Then it is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Adhokṣaja means we do not see God eye to eye at the present moment in our physical condition, but still, hearing about Him, we can develop our dormant love for God. That is real religion.

Hayagrīva: Bergson saw the greatest obstacle to this creative evolution to be the struggle with materialism, and he felt that politics and economic reforms cannot help matters.

Prabhupāda: No. These are different subject matter. It… Politics or economic development can help, provided it is guided properly. Otherwise, if the politics, economic development is aimed at understanding God and our relationship with God, then politics is all right. Otherwise it does not help at all. But this, so far Vedic civilization is concerned, the society is divided into eight division, varṇa and āśrama. So the sannyāsī, the brāhmaṇa, they are meant for educating the others to develop dormant God consciousness. And the kṣatriyas, they are to support these teachings of God consciousness because that is the objective of human life. But unfortunately, they have forgotten everything. They think simply taking care of the body and live comfortably and enjoy sense gratification. That is animal civilization; that is not human civilization.

Hayagrīva: He felt that the spirit of mysticism must be kept alive by the fortunate few who know God until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Actually they are trying to change the whole situation. The perfect social order is, as I have already mentioned it, that is perfect society when they have learned how to love God, without any motive, as natural behavior between the father and the son, and the son and the father, mother and the son. That is real perfection, perfection of society. Godless society is animal society. It is not to be adored.

Hayagrīva: What could…, what must he mean by "until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation?" What kind of…

Prabhupāda: Transformation.

Hayagrīva: …change in material condition would permit…

Prabhupāda: Material condition is the four principles of bodily demands: eating, sleeping, sex and defense. This is material condition. So when the human society… Just like at the present moment they are simply interested in these four things, how to eat nicely, palatable dishes, or very nice table, chair and so on and so on. But after all, this is eating. And similarly, living condition. Formerly people used to live very humbly. Now they are living very, very big, big skyscraper building. But that is living. Similarly sex. Formerly also a crude society, also they have sex. The animals, also they have sex. And to make gorgeous arrangement for sex, to make the women easily available or freely available, nicely dressed, this is also simply sex. Similarly defense. Either you defend with crude weapons or you atom bomb, this is defensing.

Hayagrīva: So how are these conditions going to change?

Prabhupāda: Change means along with these primary necessities of the body one should understand what is God, what to do for God instead. That is change. That can be done, simply by training.

Hayagrīva: But how are they going to change in order to bring about a profound spiritual transformation?

Prabhupāda: This is spiritual following. Just like we are doing. We are also not neglecting the bodily necessities of life, but our main business is how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is not supported by the state or the leaders of the society. They think they are unnecessary because they are animals. So that is the… If the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad eva itaraḥ janaḥ [Bg. 3.21], that is, every leading man accept that this is necessary. Just like we say "No illicit sex." So if the state helps, it can stop immediately. "No meat-eating": the state can immediately do it, "No slaughterhouse." If somebody says that it is enforcement for a person who wants to eat meat and the state has stopped, no. State at least can do this, that state is not going to maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you can kill an animal at your own house, but state is not going to commit these sinful activities, statewise. That is changed in every respect. No more breweries. State cannot maintain the manufacturing of liquor. If anyone individual wants, he can prepare for himself, but he cannot sell, he cannot induce others to take. He can for his personal (indistinct), he can take. In that case, state is giving liberty, "If you want eating meat, so do." But that is not encouragement; that is discouragement. That is Vedic injunction. Vedic injunction is that yes, you can have sex, but get yourself married properly like gentlemen and ladies do. But sex will not be allowed unrestricted intermingling of men and women and prostitution, brothels. That state has to stop. In this way whole thing can be revolutionized, and the society will be completely in human civilization and God consciousness. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: Bergson felt… He was… Bergson was optimistic in that he felt that eventually the mystics, through love, will help mankind back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: He has used that word "back to Godhead"?

Hayagrīva: Well, no, but "back to God."

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: I put "head" there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real purpose of human life. Nature gives him the opportunity in the evolutionary process to get the human form of body. Now, here is a chance. He can read books, he can read Vedas, he can take instruction from the spiritual master. These opportunities are there. So that should be encouraged. That is human civilization. Simply to keep him in darkness, and that he is body and bodily necessities of life is the only business, it is a very suicidal civilization. That is not civilization. It is animal status of life.

Hayagrīva: Within the world Bergson sees nothing but constant, unceasing change. He even sees ego change. He says, "If our existence were composed of separate states with an impassive ego to unite them, for us there would be no duration, for an ego which does not change does not endure, and a psychic state which remains the same so long as it is not replaced by the following state does not endure either." So he sees the psychic state of the individual in the ego and all that the ego contains as cognitively changing.

Prabhupāda: This is false ego, that "I am this body." So it has to be changed by education, that "You are not this body." Then when he understands that he is spirit soul, then the activities of the spirit soul begin, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. That is stated in Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, that first of all he has to understand that he is not this material body; he is spirit soul. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Within this body the soul is there, and that soul is Brahman, spiritual. People, if they do not understand this, so they are in the animal status of life. But if he understands that he is not this body, then his struggle for existence, to maintain the body, stops. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That it is, when he understands that he is not this body, then his unnecessary endeavor to keep the body in comfortable position without the, without executing the business of spiritual life, then he is kept in darkness. So when one understands that he is spirit soul, so how to elevate the spirit soul to the highest perfection, that will be the main business. So that is wanted. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Then he understands that "Not only I am spirit soul, but everyone is spirit soul," then equal, equipoised. Every spirit soul should be given the chance of perfect understanding, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then activities of devotional service. If everyone is engaged in devotional service, then he gradually comes to the state of loving God, prema. Premā pumartho mahān. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended perfection of human life is how to raise oneself to the platform of loving God. That is perfection. Otherwise it is not perfect society.

Hayagrīva: Concerning remembering and forgetting, Bergson writes, "The cerebral mechanism is arranged just so as to drive back into the unconscious"-by unconscious they mean the subconscious-"almost the whole of his past, and to admit beyond the threshold only that which can cast light on the present situation or further the action now being prepared. In short, only that which can give useful work." So that, in other words, man utilizes only those memories or that knowledge which is immediately useful, and in this way man can function in the world. What is the role of Kṛṣṇa in this, as the arranger of this cerebral mechanism?

Prabhupāda: Cerebral mechanism, that is a machine. Just like this microphone is a machine. It helps speaking loudly. It has nothing…, machine has nothing to do with the voice, but it helps the voice louder so we can listen, so far the machine is concerned. Actually the voice is different. Therefore our Vedic śāstra is called voice, śruti. So if the śruti, the voice, vibration of this voice is proper, then the machine can help us to understand that. But if there is no voice, what is the use of the machine? Just like dead body: the same brain is there, what is the use? The same ear is there. So it is not the brain that helps; it is the voice, it is the instruction which helps. Therefore we take instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So that is the Kṛṣṇa's point. Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When people becomes rascal, without any God consciousness, and the so-called demonic leaders keep the society in darkness, dharmasya glānir bhavati, at that time, to stop these demons talking nonsense, and to raise the devotees who are interested, Kṛṣṇa comes. That is Kṛṣṇa's coming. Then He leaves behind Him instruction of Bhagavad-gītā so that His devotees can preach for the benefit of the society. So it is not the brain; it is the voice, the instruction, which is important. So a human being has got this nice machine and he can take. But if the leaders are blind, they do not know what is the use of this brain, then it is useless. [break]

Hayagrīva: Concerning remembering and forgetting, we were speaking of the cerebral mechanism. In Bhagavad-gītā doesn't Kṛṣṇa say that He is the arranger of the cerebral mechanism which causes one to remember Him and forget Him? He says, "I bring… I make one remember and one forget."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He is the supreme power. He can do that. So if somebody wants to forget Kṛṣṇa persistently-in spite of Kṛṣṇa's instruction, devotee's instruction, one does not care, he persists to become a demon-Kṛṣṇa is within the heart of everyone, so He gives him chance to become more and more so that he completely forgets his relationship with God. That is explained in another place, kṣipāmy ajasram anta yoniṣu. In the Sixteenth Chapter. (aside:) You can find out. So that this rascal, life after life, remains a rascal. That is Kṛṣṇa's punishment, that he is kept in perpetual darkness. But it is the mercy of Kṛṣṇa's devotee, a Vaiṣṇava, he is more compassionate, that "This rascal, he is in perpetual darkness. Let me try to relieve." Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, vaiṣṇava ṭhākura tomāra kukkura. "Vaiṣṇava devotee, kindly accept me as your dog." Because as Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava sevā: "Unless one who gets the shelter of a Vaiṣṇava, he will perpetually remain in darkness." (aside:) Have you got?

Hari-śauri:

tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān

saṁsāreṣu narādhamān

kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān

āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu

[Bg. 16.19]

"Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life."

Prabhupāda: They will be punished to forget God, forget. He wants to forget, so apohanaṁ ca, mattaḥ… The brain is there, but Kṛṣṇa wants that this rascal should be punished to forget God. Then he will be punished more by the material nature, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā's business is to punish the demon, so māyā keeps him in demonic life so that he may be punished more and more. And Kṛṣṇa gives intelligence to a devotee, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. One who is engaged in devotional service, trying sincerely, from within He is giving instruction, "Do like this. Do like this."

Hayagrīva: Can one be forgetful of Kṛṣṇa eternally?

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: No, but…

Prabhupāda: Eternally, it is not possible. Just like a father and son. It may be, circumstantially, the son is separated from the father, but it is not possible to forget eternally. Sometimes he remembers his father. Father is always remembering the son, and father is looking after the opportunity when the son becomes obedient to his order. So there is no question of perpetually.

Hayagrīva: That's good news (laughing).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Regarding karma and transmigration, Bergson writes, "What are we in fact? What is our character if not the condensation of the history that we have lived from our birth, nay, even before our birth, since we bring with us pre-natal dispositions? Doubtless we think with only a small part of our past, but it is with our entire past, including the original bent of our soul that we desire, will and act. Our past, then, as a whole is made manifest to us in its impulse. It is felt in the form of tendency, although a small part of it only is known in the form of idea." That is, although we cannot recall much of the past, the present, our present state, is determined…

Prabhupāda: We cannot recall. That is the defect in our life. Therefore the literatures are there to remind us. That opportunity is there in the human form of life to take advantage of this Vedic knowledge which is kept in the literature. Just like Bhagavad-gītā or any Vedic literature. Especially Bhagavad-gītā is the nutshell of all Vedic knowledge. So we have forgotten. But this forgotten, forgetfulness is not perpetual. He can be reminded and he can come to his real consciousness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. These rascals, they have forgotten God, Kṛṣṇa, and they are thinking that "We are the master of everything." The so-called scientists, they are decrying God: "Now we shall do everything independently." This is demonic. So he has to be reminded. Therefore śāstras are there, sādhus are there-sādhu, śāstra, guru-guru is there, that you are not independent, you are foolishly thinking like that. You are under the clutches of māyā. So don't remain in this position, then your life will spoil. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā. Act accordingly. You will be happy.

Hayagrīva: Well he sees that we are what we are today due to all of our activities in the past.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is karma. Karmaṇā, or according to our past karmas, we are in a particular position. So this position can be changed. It is not that it will continue. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "You are suffering on account of your past misdeeds, the reaction, but this suffering is caused on account of your not surrendering unto Me. Now you surrender. I will stop this reaction of…," ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. This offer is already there, but still we do not take advantage. That is our dog's obstinacy, and we are suffering, and we shall continue to suffer.

Hayagrīva: From this, Bergson concludes that we are evolving, that we learn from an accumulation of experience, that we cannot, in a sense, repeat the same mistake twice. He writes, "From this survival of the past, it follows that consciousness cannot go through the same state twice. Circumstances may still be the same, but they will act no longer on the same person since they find him in a new moment of his history. Our personality, which is being built up each instant with its accumulated experience, changes without ceasing. Thus our personality shoots, grows and ripens without ceasing."

Prabhupāda: No. There is no cessation because the soul is eternal, so his consciousness is also eternal. But it is changing according to the circumstances, association, time, place, and the party changes. Therefore good association required. Sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. It is called sādhu-saṅga, association with the devotees. By good association the consciousness can be changed from material to spiritual. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to change the consciousness from matter to Kṛṣṇa. So that requires guidance. The guidance is Kṛṣṇa's instruction and the spiritual master. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that he has given us śāstra and the sādhu and guru. So if we take advantage of that then we become reformed, our life becomes successful.

Hayagrīva: There seems to be an inconsistency here when he says, "our personality, which is being built up with its accumulated experience." Now if personality is determined by experience and if death means a forgetting of our past experience, then a new personality must emerge when we take on a new body.

Prabhupāda: No. The…, your deeds in the past you may forget, but Kṛṣṇa does not forget. He therefore gives you chance that "You wanted to do this, now here is the opportunity, you do it."

Hayagrīva: At death it's said that we take the mind…

Prabhupāda: Death means the body is changed.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But the soul is not changed. So soul continues with his reaction of past deeds, and even though he forgets what he has done in the past, Kṛṣṇa is there. He reminds that "You wanted to do this. Do it now."

Hayagrīva: The person is the same but the false personality changes then?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this personality can change to become perfect if he follows the instruction of Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Because obviously, say in my next life, I'll be a different personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. According to your work, this karmaṇā daiva netreṇa [SB 3.31.1], by…, the body will be selected, not by you but by superior authority, that "This man has acted like this, so he should get this body."

Hayagrīva: If at death the soul takes the mind, intelligence, and ego with it…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …into a new body… If that's the case, isn't it possible for the mind to actually remember its past lives?

Prabhupāda: Sometimes he remembers. There are many instances, just like Bhārata Mahārāja. He got the body of an animal, but by the grace of Kṛṣṇa that he remembered everything of his past life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam, "That I am." Bhārata Mahārāja's remembrance, it is due to Kṛṣṇa's mercy. He was a devotee, but he neglected his devotional service on account for being too much attached to a small deer. So at the time of death he was thinking of the deer, he got the body of a deer. But Kṛṣṇa, out of His great mercy, He reminded him that "You are in such a position now. You have become a deer. So don't forget Me, My service." So he did that. He was always staying with devotees, that "By my fault I have got this body, so let me remain in this life with the devotees." So next life he took birth in a nice brāhmaṇa's family, but due to his past experience, that "I fell down," he remained just like a dull brain, not associating with anyone, that "I cannot fall again." So even in the next birth Kṛṣṇa can remind him of his past birth and guide him.

Hayagrīva: Now if, as Bergson says, our personality, which by definition would include the mind, the intelligence, the ego, and the soul also, as a person…,

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …if it shoots, grows and ripens without ceasing, then why or how could the personality or the individual jīva soul return to a lower life-form? That is to say, how could a greater experience regress to a lesser experience?

Prabhupāda: The…, everything is calculated at the time of death. That is nature's process. That I was talking in the morning, that these boys, they are too much addicted to these water sports. Twenty-four hours they are indulging in this water sport. They are creating a mentality to become aquatic animal. So naturally, at the time of death, he will think of all these things and nature will give him a body. Yes. That you cannot check. After death you are completely under nature's control. You cannot dictate. That these rascal do not understand. Therefore they, "Finish this business. There is no life after death. That's all."

Hayagrīva: Now how was it that a great personality like Indra, with his mind, intelligence, and ego all intact, how is it he could become a toad?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. So long you are materially existing, your thoughts are under the modes of material mature. So sometimes the thoughts are in the modes of goodness, sometimes the thoughts are in the modes of passion, and sometimes they are in the modes of ignorance and act accordingly. So up and down it is going on. So in order to keep yourself on the standard platform, one should engage himself in devotional service. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītya etān

brahma-bhūyāya…

(aside:) Find out this verse. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ se… (pause)

Hari-śauri:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

[Bg. 14.26]

"One who engages in full devotional service, and who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one has to keep himself on the Brahman platform, then there is no difficulties.

Hayagrīva: No…, no karmic regression.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we are trying to keep everyone twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: That, that would be what Bergson would call creative evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He saw, he saw change as maturation. He says, "We are seeking only the precise meaning that our consciousness gives to this word 'exist,' and we find that, for a conscious being, to exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly."

Prabhupāda: So, you want…, you are struggling, creating for the highest position, but Kṛṣṇa is giving you the idea. This is the highest position, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], that "You give up your so-called positions, you simply surrender unto Him…, Me, and I shall give you all protection." This is the idea. But he denies, and that because he thinks Kṛṣṇa is ordinary human being, "Oh, how He can give me the topmost position?" So he goes on, he…, with his plan-making, so that… But this plan-making, if he is actually advancing, then after many, many births he will come to that conclusion that everything is Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. But this happens after he is struggling for many, many births. So best thing is that instead of waiting many, many births, if we take Kṛṣṇa's instruction immediately, we become perfect. Why you should continue in ignorance, unsettled, and making plan? That is another foolishness.

Hayagrīva: The bond. It's the bondage of habit.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: The bondage…

Prabhupāda: Then you have to change. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there, that "Do like this, do like this."

Hayagrīva: In Creative Evolution Bergson writes, "We may conclude then that individuality is never perfect and that it is often difficult, sometimes impossible, to tell what is an individual and what is not, but that life nevertheless manifests a search for individuality as if it strove to constitute systems naturally isolated, naturally closed." A search for…

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You have given the key?

Hayagrīva: What does he mean by "search for individuality"? Isn't the individual always there?

Prabhupāda: It is no search. We are individual, always. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Second Chapter, that we are individual now, we are individual…, were in the past, and we shall continue to remain individual in future. So the individuality is always there, but the living entity, we, we are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Our intelligence is very meager, is very small, so, so therefore we forget what is our real constitutional position. So to bring to our original constitutional position the…, Kṛṣṇa and His instructions are there. The individuality is always, past, present and future, but when we forget Kṛṣṇa, make our own plan, then we suffer, and when we utilize our individuality properly, little independence, and follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction as His servant, then our life is perfect. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Bergson.

Prabhupāda: Now, the Māyāvādī philosophers, they, possessing poor fund of knowledge, they want to kill this individuality. But that is not possible. Kṛṣṇa says that you shall remain individual perpetually. There is no question of stopping. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta jīva-loka sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. They, perpetually you are individual, God is also individual. So to…, killing the individuality is not possible, but this is a false notion that "I kill my individuality and become one with God, then I will be perfect." That is not possible. You cannot become one with God. You keep your individuality. So even though if for the time being you think that "I am now merged in the existence of God," but on account of our individuality you shall again fall down.

Hayagrīva: And there's no need for a search for individuality.

Prabhupāda: Individual, he is always individual. Perpetually.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Concerning the creation, Bergson speaks of impulsion and attraction, and he says, "The causal relation between God and the world is seen as an attraction when regarded from below, as an impulsion or a contact when regarded from above. Therefore we perceive God as an efficient, that is a beginning, cause or as a final cause, according to the point of view." That is, we can see things either…, the creation coming from God or moving toward God, depending on our viewpoint.

Prabhupāda: No. Creation is…, God is always there. Before the creation and when the creation is finished, there is God. So God is not one of the creation. In the creation there are so many things coming out, so God is not one of the products of creation because He is created. He was before creation and He will exist to continue after annihilation. This is the Vedic knowledge.

Hayagrīva: Yes. This is, this is what he is saying.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: That God is the alpha, the beginning, and the omega, the end, depending on our point of view. He also says in the middle.

Prabhupāda: Not, not of the point of view. It is always there.

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: But because we are imperfect, you are thinking like that, that individually we are imperfect. God is always there, and this cosmic manifestation is temporary creation. It is a chance to the individual soul to develop his consciousness, but if he does not take, again the annihilation, he remains in unconscious position, and when again there is creation he comes to consciousness. So this is going on.

Hayagrīva: He says, "If life realizes a plan, it ought to manifest a greater harmony the further it advances, just as the house shows a better and better idea of the architect as stone is set upon stone. If, on the contrary, the unity of life is to be found solely in the beginning in the impetus that pushes it along the road of time, the harmony is not in front but behind. The unity is given at the start as an impulsion, not placed at the end as an attraction." But he's…

Prabhupāda: So this can be utilized. Suppose an artist is trying to improve this building. So if he takes instruction from an experienced artist how to improve, then it becomes easier, and if he tries himself, it takes long, long time. He should take the artistic idea from a person who is perfect in artistic idea, then his work will make progress very swiftly. Otherwise he is already imperfect, he may think "This is better," but it may not be better because he is imperfect. So he has to take instruction from a perfect person, then the progress will be very swift. [break]

Hayagrīva: Well, this can be taken from the individual point of view or from the idea that God is the architect of the universe. But according to the system of yugas, there is a greater harmony in the beginning, and as the universe winds down, this harmony disintegrates-Tretā-, Dvāpara-, and Kali-yuga. Yet there's a plan.

Prabhupāda: That's, what is called, that is the nature. First, first of all something is created, then it develops, it stays for some time, then it becomes old, dwindling, and then finished. This is called six changes of sarvika (?), of anything material. But a spirit soul is not material. He is not subjected to all these changes. This is our practical experience. The body is changing but spirit soul is the same. He remembers that "I had this body, a child's body. I have this young boy's body." He remembers; therefore he is eternal. The change is taking place of the body, so therefore the soul has nothing to do with the bodily changes. He has got his perpetual duty, perpetual activity-that is devotional service. So he has to be trained up in that perpetual duty, then he will stop this process of bodily changes, he will remain in his eternal body, spiritual body. That is going back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: So the creative evolution must necessarily be the evolution of the soul.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: No.

Prabhupāda: Soul is eternal. Soul is ever-existing. There is no question of evolution or…, that it is according to the body. So long he is in the material existence and bodily concept of life, he is thinking that a better body is evolution and a lower body… But if his consciousness is changed, then there is no chance of changing, different bodies. He remains in his eternal body.

Hayagrīva: Well the basic contradiction, it seems, between Bergson and the Vedic version is that of the evolution of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Evolution of universe means, I have already explained, that anything material, it goes under six changes. So this universe, since its birth, it is increasing in volume. So that is material change. It is nothing to the, to do with the spiritual. Spirit, the soul, as we have got soul within this body, similarly ākāra, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is the soul of this universe. He is not changing; the universe is changing, the body is changing.

Hayagrīva: Bergson's theory seems to be that there's greater harmony being realized the further life advances or the further the universe goes on.

Prabhupāda: Harmony is there, certainly. That harmony, just like the child's body is harmonically changing into boy's body, harmonical changes, there is harmony. But the change is there.

Hayagrīva: So there's harmony at the beginning and harmony at the end?

Prabhupāda: Everything is in harmony. That is God's law. Everything is in harmony. Material or spiritual, everything is in harmony.

Hayagrīva: So if everything is in harmony, then evolution has an incidental meaning. The meaning is just…

Prabhupāda: The evolution is all harmony. Just like from aquatics one has to become insect. From aquatic one has to accept the body of plants and trees, then he has to accept the bodies of insects. This is harmony. Changing is there, but it is in harmony. Now, when one comes to accept the body of human being, then his consciousness is developed. Now he can accept, because he has got greater freedom than the animal, so he has to make his choice whether he is going to stop this evolutionary process or he wants to remain in this evolutionary process. So if he takes instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then he can stop this botheration of evolution, and if he does not take, then he remains. (aside:) Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa. What is it?

Hari-śauri:

aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā

dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

[Bg. 9.3]

"Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world."

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is the chance of this human form of life. The, everything is there. If he takes the standard instruction and makes his choice whether he shall continue this perpetual, this subordinate position under the laws of nature or he should become free by going back to home, back to Godhead-that choice is there. So Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there, and simply following the instruction one can become completely detached from this cycle of birth and death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti… [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's instruction, this body will be ended, that is described. But after ending this body, no more material body. That is perfection.

Hayagrīva: Sometimes Bergson sounds like a Sophist in his contention. He says, "Man might be considered the reason for the existence of the entire organization of life on our planet." Is man the end of evolution on this planet, or is he just simply the highest form of life now present on the planet?

Prabhupāda: He is not highest form of life.

Hayagrīva: On this planet, he is speaking.

Prabhupāda: On this planet also there are different types of men. Not all men are the same position, same as there are intelligent person, there is a foolish person, there is a rich person, there is…

Hayagrīva: He is speaking of men in general, everybody, all mankind.

Prabhupāda: All mankind, what does he mean all? Everyone is individual. What does he mean? This is not very good, intelligent.

Hayagrīva: Yes. He sees the material worlds as being isolated. He says, "There is then a bond between the worlds, but this bond may be regarded as infinitely loose in comparison with the mutual dependence which unites the parts of the same world among ourselves," excuse me, "which unites the parts of the same world among themselves. So that it is not artificially for reasons of mere convenience that we isolate our solar system. Nature itself invites us to isolate it." So this, this calls to mind the image of a prison house. The isolation of the world, as far as man is concerned, is isolation imposed by material nature on the conditioned.

Prabhupāda: He is isolated. He is thinking in the wrong way. Just like in the prison house every prisoner, every, every criminal is different from other criminal. So everyone has to suffer the consequence of his criminal activities, so every individual person is suffering or enjoying according to his past deeds. So there cannot be any combination. Then we forget the individuality. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: We feel, we feel isolation as individuals, and not only is there isolation as individuals but we feel isolated on this planet. Man cannot communicate with beings on other planets.

Prabhupāda: That is his imperfectness. What is the use of having communications with other planet? The other planets are also like these. They are individual persons. So what is the utility of communicating with the other planets? What is the utility? What does he mean by it?

Hayagrīva: Well, man has always had a desire-basically it's a desire for God-but a desire to communicate with something outside of this world, outside of this earth, something higher.

Prabhupāda: The higher principle is there, Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. Why does he not communicate with Him? Then he will, that will make him perfect. What is the use of…? Just like that a tree, it has got many leaves, many branches. So if one leaf communicates with other leaf, that will not help him. But if water is poured on the root of the tree, then everyone will participate, sarva hano 'cyutejyā. So if we communicate with God, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically we understand other things. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa we can understand everything.

Hayagrīva: But they have sent rockets off into space and by…

Prabhupāda: That is childish. I have already explained.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is childish.

Hayagrīva: But…

Prabhupāda: They cannot go.

Hayagrīva: By use of, what is this radio, what do they call it? By radio waves they try to listen to messages from outer space.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but what benefit we will get? Suppose it is not very important thing. If you hear how the persons in other plant are talking, so what benefit we will get?

Hayagrīva: Is this isolation a characteristic only of the lower and middle planetary systems? In the higher planetary system, systems, is there so much isolation?

Prabhupāda: Isolation is always there. Even in this world there is isolation, even in animals. The birds, the crows, they remain together, and the swans remain together. So there is isolation between the swan and the crows. So this isolation will continue because everyone is under different modes of material nature. There are three modes of material nature. Multiply three by three, it becomes nine. Nine by nine, then it becomes eighty-one. So, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. So according to the association of different qualities the isolation is there, but when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual platform, so there is no more isolation. When everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord, there is no isolation.

Hayagrīva: Bergson sees the universe itself as expanding and evolving. He writes, "For the universe is not made but is being made continually."

Prabhupāda: Yes, we also say that, that universes came from the breathing of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So just like we can imagine from breathing with the air, something may come very minute form, then it develops.

Hayagrīva: Bigger then?

Prabhupāda: Bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.

Hayagrīva: Expanding.

Prabhupāda: One may be surprised that how this universe has come from the breathing of Viṣṇu, but actually it is so. If we accept that the universe is increasing, length and breadth, then the universe may come like particles and then begin to develop. That is the process we see in our child birth. In the womb it becomes just like a small pea, then it develops, develops as either elephant or man, the body develops. So everything material, it is created, it is very small, that a seed, very small, but it develops a big tree, banyan tree. That is the way of nature. So that's a fact that the universe is increasing. Not perpetually; to a certain extent. Then stop, again it becomes dwindled, and then it is finished.

Hayagrīva: Yes. He didn't know. He says, "It is growing, perhaps indefinitely." "Perhaps," he says.

Prabhupāda: Perhaps is no knowledge.

Hayagrīva: By the addition of new worlds.

Prabhupāda: That is all imagination.

Hayagrīva: There's no way to know.

Prabhupāda: Poor fund of knowledge.

Hayagrīva: But new worlds are being added, but not indefinitely.

Prabhupāda: No, new worlds added and old worlds subtracted. That is going on, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19].

Hayagrīva: The present-day material scientists, astronomers, state…, one of the theories is that the universe is expanding, that the systems are going outward into space and are moving proportionately further and further from one another, just like raisins rising in dough. When raisin bread is in the oven, the raisins, they go further and further and further apart as the dough expands. So is this…?

Prabhupāda: That expansion goes to a certain extent. Then the expansion stops, then it becomes dwindling and then finished.

Hayagrīva: Well then Bergson is actually incorrect in saying that the universe is evolving toward some grand harmony.

Prabhupāda: That is his imagination. What does he mean by this harmony? Just like I am increasing, your body is increasing, your child's body is increasing. So everybody's body is increasing, so where is the, what does he mean by harmony? It is increasing and it will dwindle and it will finish. That is material nature. If you say this process of increasing and dwindling is going on, that is harmony, then there is no harm, but the, individually everything is going under this process of increasing and decreasing and at the end finished.

Hayagrīva: He gives and example that's something similar to the Vedic. He speaks of "a center from which worlds shoot out like rockets in a fireworks display, provided, however, that I do not present this center as a thing but as a continuity of shooting out. God thus defined has nothing of the already made. He, that is God, is unceasing life, action, and freedom."

Prabhupāda: It is just like a wheel. A wheel is rotating. There are spokes, there are rims, there is a hub, and in the center, what is they call that, that supports the hub?

Hayagrīva: Axle.

Prabhupāda: Spindle, axle, axle. So He is the axle. So the round is going on, but He is the center. Everything is going on but He is the center. Aham ādir hi…, what is called? Devānām. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. So the central point is God, and other things are just like a big wheel, and the big wheel has got so many parts. The, it has got the rim, it has got the spokes, it is going in force, but the axle is the same, always in the center.

Hayagrīva: Now this is the last point, and I want to just for the record to correct this on Śyāmasundara's presentation because you took exception to this, and I believe that it was…, you wouldn't take exception to it. I don't know. It says Bergson refers to the "essential function of the universe as being that of a machine for the making of gods."

Prabhupāda: That is his misconception. That I have explained, the wheel. The wheel is going on. The wheel has got different parts but it is resting on the axle.

Hayagrīva: No, but is the universe a machine for the making of gods in the sense that it's a vehicle to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: No, this is wrong. The machine, the wheel is already depending on the axle. Axle is already there. Without axle, the wheel cannot move.

Hayagrīva: Not for the creation of God, not for the making of God.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Hayagrīva: But for the making of small "g" gods, like demigods. You once said…

Prabhupāda: Demigods are already there. Just like in the same example, in the wheel the different parts, they are already there.

Hayagrīva: So there's no question of the making of gods?

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is a wrong theory.

Hayagrīva: But when a man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, could you say that he has become like a god or godlike?

Prabhupāda: He, that godlessness is diseased condition. So when he becomes in normal condition, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. His normal life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is mukti. Mukti means liberation. What is that liberation? A man is suffering from fever. So if the fever is stopped by medicine and treatment, then he becomes in normal health. It does not mean that he, he changes his constitution. He is the same man, but on account of fever he was talking nonsense, in convul…, what is called, convulsion?

Hayagrīva: Convulsions.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Delirium.

Prabhupāda: Delirium, yes. He is talking all nonsense, this diseased condition. So he has to cured from the diseased condition, then he will understand, "Oh, this is my position," brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54], he becomes immediately joyful, "Oh, I am talking in delirium, nonsense." This is…

Hayagrīva: So instead of a machine for the making of gods, it's more like a hospital for the curing of souls.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, it is hospital. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means curing the disease. That is described in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], nirmalam. Nirmalam means purified. So when he becomes free from all this designation… The designation begins with this body, and the body accidentally born in Europe, he thinks, "I am a European." Born in America, "I am an American." Born in a Christian family, "I am Christian." He is born in Hindu family, "I am that." That is all misconception. His real position is that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, eternal servant." Then he is free from all. That is, that is beginning of…, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ, beginning of spiritual life. So nothing, not that a man can be made to God. He is not God; he is part and parcel of God. He has to simply understand his position. That is mukti. He is working under different impression, that "I am this body." Just like the other day with, concerning the philosopher Huxley. He is a philosopher but he is proud of becoming Englishman. Did you not say?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So this is going on. So-called philosophy, scientific advancement, but the central mistake is there that he is thinking in terms of his body. That has to be corrected. Then it will be pure consciousness and normal life.

Hayagrīva: Now let me get this right. He doesn't say that it's a machine for the making…, that man becomes… He's not saying that man becomes God. He never says that.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: But that a man may evolve to a state like unto the demigods. Is that a possibility?

Prabhupāda: What is demigod? That, there is a difference between demigod and a man. A demigod is in the better position, that's all. Just like a high-court judge and layman. Both of them human being, but the high-court judge in a better position, that's all, but both of them human being.

Hayagrīva: But that's not the purpose of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Everything is the… I am human being, you are human being, but you are in better position. So demigods, they are, on account of their higher qualities, they are in sattva-guṇa, and here raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So…, but as soon we are not subjected to any guṇa, either sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, we are transcendental. So if we keep ourselves in that transcendental position, that is engaged in devotional service, then we are above this all, sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is wanted. Then that is called mukti, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. We are contaminated or conditioned on account of association with these three modes of material nature, and if we keep ourself aloof from the association of three modes then we are mukta, we are liberated. That is devotional service.

Hayagrīva: Higher, higher than the demigods?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the demigods? They are also rotting in this material world. So devotees are not concerned how to become a demigod. They do not care. That is said by Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī: vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate. Vidhi means Lord Brahmā, and mahendra means the king of heaven, Indra. So he says, "I think this Brahmā and Indra, Candra, the demigods just like as good as the germs and small insects." He says that. Vidhi-mahendrādiś. You have to attain such a position that you think this Brahmā and Indra and demigods, they are as good as the insects. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭa. Kīṭa means a small insect. So actually that is the position. Everyone has got a different type of body according to his karma, either Brahmā's body or ant's body, so he is under material laws. So that is not the position of freedom. One has to become above these material laws. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. So anyone who has actually attained that position, what is the importance of Brahmā's body or Indra's body? He is not concerned with the body, just, therefore devotees are not interested to be elevated to the higher planetary system in the heaven. They are not interested. They are interested going back to home, back to Godhead. So devotee's position is different. Just like we can see practically our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we have got so many members. We are not perfect, but still it is not our ambition how to become a Rockefeller or big rich man. This is not our ambition. Is it our ambition, like that? We don't care for this Rockefeller or big, big man. We want how to become a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You can see practically. Our endeavors, activities, are not like the karmīs'. The karmīs are trying "How many motorcars I will possess. How many buildings I shall possess." We do not mind, but we are constructing temples. That is for Kṛṣṇa's service. We are getting money by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You are envious of that money for Kṛṣṇa's service. Not to that to make a big bank balance and declare that "Now I have become as good as Rockefeller," or this or that. We are not interested. So a devotee is not at all interested to be promoted in the higher planetary system or become demigod. That is not their business. Kīṭa janma hau yathā tuyā dāsa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that bahir-mukha brahma-janme nāhi mora āśa, "I don't care to become a Brahmā, I, better I shall prepare to become a small ant in the house of a devotee." This is our ambition. I shall be very much satisfied remaining a small ant in the house of a devotee, a dog of a devotee, but I don't want, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, to become like Brahmā, Indra, Candra. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Hayagrīva: So that's the end of Bergson. (end)

ALEXANDER.HAY

Samuel Alexander

Hayagrīva: Samuel Alexander basically wrote one major book, called Space, Time and Deity.

Prabhupāda: Space, Time and…?

Hayagrīva: Deity.

Prabhupāda: Deity.

Hayagrīva: And in this book he defines religion. He says, "Religion leans on metaphysics for the justification of its conviction of the reality of its object, God. Philosophy leans on religion to justify it, and calling the possessor of Deity by the religious name of 'God.' The two methods of approach, that is philosophy and religion, are therefore complementary."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's right. Religion, when it is combined with philosophy, that makes sense, and religion without philosophy is sentiment. It has no practical value.

Hayagrīva: For Alexander, religion is like what…

Prabhupāda: We should say in this connection that Bhagavad-gītā is religion and philosophy combined together.

Hayagrīva: For Ale…

Prabhupāda: The religion is God worship, and everything explained there, just like immortality of the soul, that is philosophy. So it is combination of religion and philosophy that makes sense.

Hayagrīva: For Alexander religion is like hunger, and God is the food for that hunger.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "The religious which sets us in search of God is our groping out to the reality which is God. This religious appetite may either be stirred in us directly, by the impact of the world with its tendency to Deity, or it may first be felt by us as a need of our nature." So the desire or hunger for God may be motivated either externally or internally.

Prabhupāda: That I explained this morning partially, that actually we are seeking love of God beginning with the body. That I have explained in this morning, that we love this body because I live within this body. As soon as I give up this body, the body is neglected, it has no value, throw it. So, so long the living soul is there, the body has value. So why the living soul is valuable? Because he is the part and parcel of God. So God is there also within this body. This is explained is the Bhagavad-gītā. There are two living entities. One is…, they all…, both of them are known as kṣetra-jña. One kṣetra-jña only knows about his body, and the other kṣetra-jña knows all other bodies. That is God and the living entity. So the body is important because the living entities are there. The subordinate living entity is the part of the supreme living entity. So ultimately the conclusion is, because a supreme living entity is in the body or within the universe, therefore we have manufactured so many activities of love and society, friendship, nationality, community. Ultimately, when it culminates with love of God, then it is perfect. So the conclusion is that we are searching after the platform where God is love, but it is going on, I mean to say, by degrees, one after another, in different names.

Hayagrīva: Alexander despairs of the speculative method as a means for connecting with God, and he also feels that proofs of God's existence in nature are nonexistence, are nonexistent. If such a God is to be identified with the object of worship, that is to say we shouldn't worship God in nature. But how can God be known? For him God can be known by experience. Nor can we prove the existence of God, whether worshipable or not, except on the basis of experience.

Prabhupāda: This is natural. This is just like the other day I was saying that on the Hawaii Island we are standing, we know that the proprietor, the government, is there. So just after few yards there is the sea. Then we can conjecture: if the land has the proprietor, the sea has also proprietor. We have not seen who is the proprietor of the land, or the governor of the land. Similarly, there is a governor, proprietor, of the sea and the sky, but we have not seen. That does not mean there is no proprietor.

Hayagrīva: Now…

Prabhupāda: By see, by exp…, by our present experience we can guess the experience which you have not actually experienced. As we see that everything has got I… I am the proprietor of this body, he is the proprietor of this house, he is the proprietor of that land, he is the proprietor…, that there must be a proprietor of the sea. This is common sense. And that is God. The proprietor of the sun, the proprietor of the moon, the sky, that is God. That is described in the Vedic literature. It is said that the moon is the mind of God, the sun is the eyes of God, the land is the foot of God, the water is the semina of God. Everything is described.

Hayagrīva: So God can be seen in nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only nature. This is the beginning of realizing. This is impersonal. But there is person at the background. Just like we do not see…, we know that there is one governor, proprietor of the Hawaii Island. We have not seen. But when we see him, he is person. This is the conclusion. Similarly, so long we are not competent to see God, we can understand, "This is God's hand, this is God's heart, this is His…, God's mind, this is God's eyes." But when we are competent we can see regularly, "Here, here is God, face to face." That requires qualification. Because I did not see the governor of Hawaii is that he is not a person, he is imperson-that is foolishness. When I become competent to see, qualified to see the governor, you see he is a person.

Hayagrīva: Alexander distinguishes between what he calls deity and God Himself. For him deity is how it feels to be divine. Now deity for him is a relative term. It is the next highest level of existence. For instance, for an ant, a dog may be a deity; for a dog, a man may be a deity; for a man, a demigod may be a deity. He says, "For any level of existence, deity is the next higher empirical quality."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hayagrīva: "It is therefore a variable quality, and as the world grows in time, deity changes with it. On each level a new quality looms ahead, which plays to it the part of deity. However, God is the being which possesses Deity in full." That is to say God is always one step ahead of every creature.

Prabhupāda: They do not know the science of God, but as philosopher they are suggesting the method. That is nice. Just like for ant, a bird is deity; for a bird, a cat is deity; for a cat, a dog is deity. So in this way, according to the position one selects the deity. But if you go on searching out, when you find out somebody that he has no any, anyone to worship… The ant has to worship the bird, bird has to worship the cat, cat has to worship the so on, so on. In this way, when you come to a person who hasn't got to worship anybody, He is God. That is sense. In the lower stage there is another, higher living being than the lower living being, but in this way searching out, when you come to a point that there is this person who hasn't got to worship anybody … That is explained in the Vedic literature:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

[Bs. 5.1]

He is worshipable by everyone. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "Everyone has got higher than him for worship, but I have nothing to worship. I am the Supreme, mattaḥ parataram. No…, there is no more superior authority than Me." Then He is God. So long one has superior authority, he is not God. He is subordinate. But when he comes to a person who has no more superior than Him, then He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: Although Alexander himself tries to describe God in philosophical terms…

Prabhupāda: Then his philosophy is right, that an ant's god is a bird; bird's god…, like that. So when he finds, comes to a person who has no more god, then He is Supreme God.

Hayagrīva: But he feels that ultimately God is beyond description. He says…

Prabhupāda: No. Why? We have, this, this is description.

Hayagrīva: Yes, but he's giving a description, or attempting to give a philosophical definition.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, this is right description, that you find deity in different stages, but when you come to a person that He has no more deity, then He is God.

Hayagrīva: He says even the description…

Prabhupāda: You don't find in the life of Kṛṣṇa that He is worshiping any other God.

Hayagrīva: He worships no-one.

Prabhupāda: No-one. There is… Therefore He is God.

Hayagrīva: Nor does He meditate.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: Nor does He meditate.

Prabhupāda: Meditate of Himself. The Māyāvādī has taken like that. But He has no more, anybody higher than Him, so He has to meditate upon Himself.

Hayagrīva: He does meditate upon Himself.

Prabhupāda: Just to teach us. In the, as a family man, He in the morning He was meditating.

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gṛhastha. So He was meditating upon Himself. [break]

Hari-śauri:

arjuna uvāca

paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma

pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān

puruṣaṁ śāśvatam divyam

ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum

[Bg. 10.12]

āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve

devarṣir nāradas tathā

asito devalo vyāsaḥ

svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me

"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal Divine Person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa, proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Finished. "All authorities accept, I realize, and You personally say." Then what evidence more? Hm? What is the possible evidence? No evidence, finished. "I personally experience, You personally say, and the authorities accept You. Finished." Things should be simplified. This is…

Hayagrīva: Meanwhile Alexander is saying, uh, he seems to conceive of God in a universal form. He says, "Now the body of God is the whole universe, and there is no body outside His."

Prabhupāda: That is experimented in the Bhagavad-gītā for men like Alexander and company. Arjuna requested that Kṛṣṇa to show His universal form, because he knew that "I am accepting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme, but there are many persons with poor fund of knowledge, they may not accept." Therefore he requested Kṛṣṇa to show him the universal form. That He showed, so that there is another proof for person like Mr. Alexander and company. The, in the Eleventh Chapter, the universal form is very nicely explained. But the universal form was shown by Kṛṣṇa; therefore Kṛṣṇa is original. Universal form is not original; it was manifested by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's natural form is Kṛṣṇa. The universal form is a feature of Him. God… That, that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this verse.

Hari-śauri:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me…"

Prabhupāda: So "everything emanates from Me" mean the universal form also emanate from. So iti matvā bhajante mām: "One who understand Me, he, he becomes a Kṛṣṇa devotee." Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-saman(vitāḥ), that He is the origin of universal form also; then he becomes a Kṛṣṇa devotee.

Hayagrīva: He sees God's… [break] Alexander sees God's Deity as being different from others in that it is infinite… [break] This is the continuation of Alexander that was interrupted due to the defective tape. A God…, uh, Alexander considers God's Deity as differing from that of others in being infinite, and he says, "God's body…"

Prabhupāda: This, this, this sense should be explained. Because God is infinite, He has infinite Deities also. That is infiniteness. He is presented as Deity; that is infinitely of varieties. That is infiniteness. Why he is sticking to one Deity? That is his not understanding the meaning of what is infinite. That is explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta-rūpam: He has Deity infinitely. That is infinity. Because He is infinite, He has no Deity-that is not real conception. He is infinite and He has got infinite Deity forms.

Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body, being the whole universe of space/time, is the source of the categories but not itself subject to them."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if God is Deity, He is also not subject to these created living being. That is condemned. When one thinks God's Deity as one of the deities within this material world, he is condemned as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: [Bg. 9.11] "Because I appear just like a human being, the rascals, asses, they think of Me as ordinary human."

Hayagrīva: Now in this book Space, Time and Deity, on page 380, Alexander writes… Alexander takes the Aristotelian view of God in saying, "There is no reciprocal action from God, for though we speak as we inevitably must in human terms of God's response to us, there is no direct experience of that response except through our own feeling that devotion to God, or worship, carries with it its own satisfaction."

Prabhupāda: That is his imperfectness. God is omnipotent. He comes before Kṛṣṇa, er, Arjuna, and He speaks Bhagavad-gītā. So because he has no advanced knowledge, he cannot understand how God, omnipotent, all-powerful, can come and speak with His devotee. That is his poor fund of knowledge.

Hayagrīva: Yes, that…

Prabhupāda: If God is omnipotent, why He cannot come and talk with His devotee? Then where is the omnipotency? These rascals cannot understand.

Hayagrīva: That was…

Prabhupāda: There is no meaning of omnipotency if God cannot come and talk with His devotee.

Hayagrīva: Because they have no experience, they think that…

Prabhupāda: That means poor fund of knowledge. The knowledge is imperfect. They are talking of God omnipotent, and He cannot talk with His devotee. Just see. He is restricted by his own law, by his own experience. He is such a fool.

Hayagrīva: This was also Aristotle's view. He said it's foolish for, he says man directs love toward an object that can reciprocate love.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Therefore it's foolish to love Zeus because Zeus does not extend his love to man. This was the Aristotelian view, that there's no reciprocation.

Prabhupāda: No, Zeus? Zeus I, I don't follow.

Hayagrīva: Oh, Zeus is a, the Greek God, Greek name for God.

Prabhupāda: He reciprocates to the advanced devotee. Just like it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrva… [Bg. 10.10]. One who is in full love with God, He talks with him. He does not talk with ordinary rascals. And in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti: [Bs. 5.38] one who has developed love of God, such person always sees God within his heart. So it is a question of Just like Kṛṣṇa says, that "I am talking to you because you are My devotee," bhakto 'si. Why God should talk with nondevotee? He has no business. Just like king, he talks with his immediate officials, minister. He does not talk with the street man. How you can expect? How this street man can express that "I want to talk with the king or the president"? There is no question. He talks. He talks with the qualified devotees, not with others.

Hayagrīva: Wasn't there also something He says, that "As you approach Me…?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually just like you are talking, you can talk with God also. These gopīs in Vṛndāvana, in everything they are playing with Kṛṣṇa. Mother Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa just like ordinary child. But these are not happening ordinarily. That the Bhāgavata says, that "What this gopī Yaśodā did her past life that the Supreme Lord is sucking her breast?" So you cannot expect that the dealings as God is doing with mother Yaśodā, Mahārāja Nanda, the gopīs. Therefore we have to be qualified to that position to deal with God. That another place that,

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā

dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena

māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa

sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ

[SB 10.12.11]

These boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, they have amassed their pious activities for many, many lives, now they have come to this position to play with God. It is not ordinary position. Therefore the rascals, they think, "This is all myth." But it is inconceivable by them. But one comes to that state, he can play with God, he can rise on the shoulder of God and he can talk with Him like ordinary friend, ordinary child. So one has to come to that position.

Hayagrīva: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: The very word is this kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. One who has amassed the resultant action of pious activities for many millions of births, that he can have this position.

Hayagrīva: Six pages later, Alexander writes, "The community is one of cooperation. The individual is sustained by trusting God, but he wants and claims the help of God as the child his father's, and in turn God reciprocates the worship man pays Him and the confidence he reposes in Him."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Yes. He says that six pages after he says God does not reciprocate. "There is no such reciprocation from God."

Prabhupāda: But here he says reciprocate.

Hayagrīva: He says there's reciprocation. That's what's confusing. But he goes on further to say, "There's always the double relationship of need. If man wants God and depends upon Him, God wants man and is so far dependent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is dependent. There is no question about it.

Hayagrīva: But how is God dependent on man?

Prabhupāda: Not. God is not dependent, but…

Hayagrīva: No, but that, he seemed to be saying that.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: He says, "If man wants God and depends upon Him, God wants man and is so far dependent."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is acceptable in this sense, that God is independent thoroughly, but sometimes He wants to become dependent. That is His pleasure. And He accepts some of His devotee so that He can depend upon. Just like mother Yaśodā, that God became dependent on mother Yaśodā. Unless mother Yaśodā allows God to suck her breast, God will die. God is thinking like that, and He is crying. That is God's pleasure, that everyone is dependent on Him, and He is not dependent on anyone, so in order to derive this pleasure how a dependent child enjoys the care of mother, He accept to become a son of a devotee. That is not very ordinary thing to understand, but He has In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is explained…

Hayagrīva: I'm not sure that Alexander understood it in that way.

Prabhupāda: No. How he can understand? (laughter) He cannot. He is a talkative philosopher, that's all.

Hayagrīva: He, he says, "God Himself is involved in our acts and their issues. Not only does He matter to us, but we matter to Him."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is one sense correct. Because we are fallen condition and we are sons of God, so we are suffering. God is very much compassionate; therefore He comes personally to teach us: "You rascal, why you are rotting in this material world? You surrender to Me and go back to home, back to Godhead, you will be happy." Therefore He is consulting. Otherwise why He comes from Vaikuṇṭha? Everyone, just like a son is rotting in his own way, but the father comes: "My dear son, why you are rotting in this way? You come home. You have got state. You will live there comfortably." But he does not come. That is his misfortune.

Hayagrīva: Now, Alex…

Prabhupāda: God's, God's becoming concerned about a…, us is natural, because we are sons of God, but at the present moment we are disobedient; therefore you are conditioned by nature. So we are suffering, and God being the supreme father, He feels for. He is not suffering, but He feels, as a devotee feels for these conditioned soul. Because he is servant of God, he knows that God feels for these conditioned soul; they are suffering. That Kṛṣṇa also gives recognition to the devotee, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. The devotees who are trying to preach the gospel, the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, he is the most dear devotee to Kṛṣṇa, He says, because he is acting on behalf of God to deliver these rascals, conditioned soul.

Hayagrīva: He speaks of theism and pantheism. Now we might equate theism with personalism and pantheism with impersonal, the impersonal aspect.

Prabhupāda: There is nothing… Impersonal means when we cannot see that the background is person. We can of course take the lesson from nature that the sunshine is impersonal but the background is sun-god. But because we are in a very lower stage of life we can simply experience the sunshine but we cannot go and talk with the sun-god. That is not possible. So similarly, the background is person and the expansion of God's energy is imperson. So because we are in the energy, we are not directly in touch with God; therefore we say that God is an imperson. We have no such capacity now, but they, if we become devotee, we can attain that position when he can talk with God in person as the gopīs and the cowherds boy, mother Yaśodā and other in Vṛndāvana inhabitants they are doing.

Hayagrīva: He says, "For theism, God is an individual being distinct from the finite being which make up the world. For panth…"

Prabhupāda: Hm? Finite? He is not finite.

Hayagrīva: No, He is distinct, He is different. He is an individual…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Hayagrīva: …but He is different from the finite beings…

Prabhupāda: So that is the Vedic injunction, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is also eternal, He is also living being; we are also eternal, we are also living being. But He is the chief. How He is chief? Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That single number eternal living being, He is maintaining all these plural number living beings. Therefore you will find either in this material world or in the spiritual world there is so much arrangement. The sky is there, the air is there, the fire is there, the water is there, the land is there. He has made, even in this conditioned state, God has given us so much things, made for our maintenance. We require water-we find; we require air, so many things, and God has given us ample opportunity. So He is maintaining. Without air we cannot breathe; without water we cannot live; without fire we cannot live. So He has given; therefore He is maintaining, He is maintainer. So one, the chief eternal living being is God, and the subordinate eternal living being are the jīvas, or the conditioned soul.

Hayagrīva: Well that's one hand, theism. He says, "For pantheism God is eminent in the universe of finite things, a pervading presence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Presence is just like the water has come from Him. We say the semina of God. The light is coming from God. We say the sun is the eye of God. In this way everything is related, emanation from God. So, so long we do not understand wherefrom these things are coming, it appears God is imperson. But when we understand that "Here is the source of this sky, this air, the light, the water, the land," then He is person. So impersonal feature means a subordinate feature to the person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "All the sky, air, fire, air, land, water, everything, that is My expansion." Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Sarvam means everything. And mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: [Bg. 9.4] "They are staying on Me." Just like the sunshine is on the sun. As soon as sun sinks, the sun, there is no sunshine. Similarly, the sunshine appears to be very big and the sun globe appears to be small, but the whole sunshine is depending on the sun globe. Similarly, the whole exhibition of impersonal representation-earth, water, air, fire, sky, so on, they are all depending on God. There…, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "Everything that you see, that is My expansion, and everything is resting on these elements." Therefore He says, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni, nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ: [Bg. 9.4] "But personally I am not there." And standing on this vast land or in the ocean he is in God, but personally he cannot see. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Personally I am not present there, although he is standing on Me." Oh, Kuntī also says that, that "You are within and without, but still, the fools cannot see. Only the paramahaṁsas can see You." That is in Kuntī's prayer you will find. (aside:) Find out this Kuntī's prayer. Perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: (to Hari-śauri:) Why don't you give the verse? Why don't you just give, give the verse, read, give the verse numbers for the typist.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Uh… Canto One, Chapter Eight, text 18, 19 and 20. So I'll just do the English, or the overall verse?

Hayagrīva: Read the English.

Hari-śauri: "Śrīmatī Kuntī said: O Kṛṣṇa, I offer my obeisances unto You because You are the original personality and are unaffected by the qualities of the material world. You are existing both within and without everything, yet You are invisible to all. Being beyond the range of limited sense perception, the eternally irreproachable factor covered by the curtain of deluding energy, You are invisible to the foolish observer, exactly as an actor dressed as a player is not recognized. You Yourself descend to propagate the transcen…"

Prabhupāda: That is very good example. His father is playing on the stage, and the son is seeing, and another, another friend is seeing, saying, "Do you see your father?" Then "Where is my father?" He, he, he does not recognize his father. Very good example.

Hari-śauri: Then, uh, third verse, "You Yourself descend to propagate the transcendental science of devotional service unto the hearts of the advanced transcendentalists and mental speculators, who are purified by being able to discriminate between matter and spirit."

Prabhupāda: Advanced transcendentalists, they can understand. Not these speculators with limited sense perception. Finished?

Hari-śauri: Hm.

Prabhupāda: The speculators have no knowledge. (laughs)

Hayagrīva: Yes. He says, "It is not so much that God is in everything but rather that everything is in God."

Prabhupāda: That's another foolishness.

Hayagrīva: What is this position?

Prabhupāda: He is inside and outside. He is within and without.

Hayagrīva: Why should it be more one way than the other?

Prabhupāda: Because there is nothing but God, so how he can be without God? Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is God's expansion. How it can be sometimes in God and sometimes not in God? When he is not in God, that means he is māyā. Now māyā is also God, mama māyā. So how he can be without God? That is illusion. Just like these criminal. He thinks, "I can be independent of the government." No. That is not possible. Either he will remain in jail or outside the jail, you are under the government. But he thinks that "I am free." That is foolishness. He is not free at anytime.

Hayagrīva: Now he analyzes theism, which is the personal aspect, and pantheism, the impersonal aspect, and he finds both defective in themselves, and so what is his position? This is his position: "If the question is asked whether the speculative conception of God or Deity which has been advanced here as part of the empirical treatment of space/time, and has appeared to be verified by religious experience belongs to theism or pantheism, the answer must be that it is not strictly referable to either of them. Taken by itself…"

Prabhupāda: That is his mistake. As you have explained that the sky is also with reference to God… The sky is explained as the heart of God, and the water is explained as the semina of God, the moon is explained as the mind of God, the sun is explained as the eyes of God, the land is explained as the foot of God. So everything is with reference to God. So for a person who understands God, there is nothing existing without God. So how God can be separate? That is the fact. So pantheism or any "ism" you take, it has reference with God. What he says?

Hayagrīva: This, he goes on to say, he says it doesn't belong, strictly belong, strictly belong to theism or pantheism. "The answer must be it is not strictly referable to either taken by itself, that in different respects it belongs to both, and that if a choice must be made, it is theistic," that is personal, "for God for us is…"

Prabhupāda: That, that means when you come to the personal God you see that everything is with reference to God. There is nothing independent. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. That is explained, that this viśvarūpa universe is Bhagavān, but it appears that it is different from Bhagavān to the less intelligent. So then there cannot exist anything without Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but those who have no sufficient knowledge, they think that "This is separate from God and God is separate from you."

Hayagrīva: He says, "God is both body and soul…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…and His soul is His Deity. Since God's body is the whole of space/time, God, in respect of His body, is all-inclusive, and all finites are included in Him, and in their continuous connection as pieces of space/time, and linked by spacial-temporal continuity they are fragments of God's body, though their individuality is not lost in it."

Prabhupāda: This is right. This is right. This experience he has got very good work.

Hayagrīva: "God is an individual being just as man or any other finite is…"

Prabhupāda: And now he is coming to that.

Hayagrīva: "…only that He is infinite."

Prabhupāda: He is, He is person, but He is not a person like us. But sometimes, due to our poor fund of knowledge… That is explained, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. "These rascal, because I am here talking with Arjuna just like a human being, they are thinking that I am also a human being." No. He is infinite, Arjuna is finite. That is explained in the Fourth Chapter also, that "Arjuna, you are doubtful how I can remember that I spoke this philosophy to sun-god some millions of years ago." Naturally a finite man cannot remember how one can remember. "That is the difference between you and Me, that I know everything; you forget. So although you are living being eternal, I am also living being eternal, that is the difference between you and Me."

Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body is not spaceless nor timeless, for it is space/time itself."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything emanates from Him, so there is nothing separate from God. God includes everything. That is the conception of God. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has emanated from Him.

Hayagrīva: This is the final point. He says, "Concerning the existence of the evil…"

Prabhupāda: This description is very nice.

Hayagrīva: The description on the…?

Prabhupāda: The last description.

Hayagrīva: That last description. That the living entities are fragments of God's body…

Prabhupāda: Everything…

Hayagrīva: …but their individuality is not lost.

Prabhupāda: Everything that you will see, they are all part and parcel of God. The other day I was saying that the wheel, the whole wheel is resting on the axle. So axle is there, the wheel is moving, so everything is part and parcel of God. Therefore the Māyāvādī's philosophy that everything is one, yes, but they do not accept the variety. The wheel is one, that's all right, but still the parts, sometimes it is called spokes, sometimes it is called the rim, sometimes it is called the hub, sometimes it is rolling, sometimes it is stopped, but everything the wheel, nothing but wheel.

Hayagrīva: He goes through a lot of, a lot of speculation to arrive at the final point. Concerning the existence of evil and suffering in the world, he writes, "God is not responsible for the miseries endured in working out his providence, but rather…

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. The miserable condition is created by us, and we suffer.

Hayagrīva: Yes, he says, "rather, we are responsible for our acts."

Prabhupāda: We suffer. Just like the silkworm, he creates a cocoon and becomes entrapped and dies. He is creating this fiber, silk fiber, and becomes entrapped. That is his creation.

Hayagrīva: A co…

Prabhupāda: What is called? Cocoon?

Hayagrīva: Yes, a cocoon.

Prabhupāda: He becomes entrapped. So similarly, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Because he is acting independently without caring for God's instruction, then he is entangled; he suffers. That is the position. God has not created this suffering; he has created his suffering.

Hayagrīva: That's the end of Alexander. (end)

MILL.HAY

John Stuart Mill

Hayagrīva: This is John Stuart Mill. In his essay on nature Mill writes, "The order of nature, in so far as unmodified by man, is such as no being whose attributes are justice and benevolence would have made with the intention that his rational creatures should follow it as an example. It could only be as a designedly imperfect work which man in his limited sphere is to exercise justice and benevolence in amending." So Mill concludes…

Prabhupāda: In man dealing, not with any other living beings, only man.

Hayagrīva: Well man, Mill concludes that conformity to nature has no connection whatever with right and wrong, and that man must amend nature. He must not act according to nature, but must-the word he uses is "amend"…

Prabhupāda: Yes, amend. Not only amend. The nature, that we discussed, almost always, the nature is animal nature. But man must be above the animal nature. That is rationality. Normally a man is called rational animal, so he should advance in rationality. Just for eating, eating is common to the man and to the animal, but man should be advanced, what kind of eating it should be. Not only natural, although natural tendency is… Just like man, some of, not all, some of them want to eat meat. So rationality is that "If I have got better foodstuff, why shall I kill that animal?" This is then rationality. But because he can eat meat, he can kill animal, he should go on killing animal, that is less intelligence. God has given so many nice foodstuff. Take for fruits, there are varieties of fruits Kṛṣṇa has given to the mankind, and we can utilize milk in so many nice preparation. So the fruits are not eaten by the animals. The dogs, cats, they do not eat fruit. It is meant for human being, so similarly there must, discrimination is the better part of valor. Is that not English proverb? So man should have discrimination, and especially for eating. I think George Bernard Shaw wrote one book, You are What You are Eating.

Hayagrīva: You are what you eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the eating, about, there must be rationality, not to be carried by the nature's way. Nature's way, a man can eat anything, and they are eating also at the same time. The other day I saw in the airplane one Marwari gentleman he was eating the intestine of the hog. What is called?

Hayagrīva: The what?

Prabhupāda: Intestine of the hogs.

Devotee: Hogs' intestines.

Prabhupāda: What is that called?

Hayagrīva: Hogs intestines?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: People eat pig's feet also, that's a…

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: A very favorite, the feet of pigs.

Devotee: Pig's trotters.

Prabhupāda: Feet.

Hayagrīva: Pig's feet.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: That's considered a delicacy.

Prabhupāda: So this way they have developed their consciousness. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, nānā yoni brahman kare kadarya bhakṣaṇa kare, this cycle of birth and death is that, that he comes to a species of life, he eats the most abominable food. So that, that is to be prohibited in human life. That is checking the natural instinct and to become rightly rational, what to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, how to defend. This is also animal propensity. Above that he should search out about the Absolute Truth, then his rationality is properly used. Otherwise he remains animal.

Hayagrīva: He further writes, "The truth is that there is hardly a single point of excellence belonging to human character which is not decidedly repugnant to the untutored feelings of human nature." So he felt that virtues are not instinctive in man, virtues like courage, cleanliness, self-control, these virtues have to be cultivated. They're not…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the human society there is educational system. Man has to be made a right rational animal. Although he is animal, he has to be educated in nice way. That depends on education, system of education, but in that connection studying the whole world's education system, the Vedic education is perfect. Therefore every man should be educated as they are instructed in the Vedic literature and a summary of Vedic literature is Bhagavad-gītā. So every man should read it as it is without any unnecessary interpretation. That will make the man perfect educated.

Hayagrīva: Mill envisions God at war with evil, and man's role is in aiding or helping God in this war. He writes, "If providence, or God, is omnipotent, providence intends whatever happens and the fact of its happening proves that providence intended it. If so, everything which a human being can do, is predestined by providence, and is a fulfillment of its designs. But if, as is the more religious theory, providence intends not all which happens, but only what is good, then indeed man has it in his power by his voluntary actions to aid the intentions of providence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Providence desires only good. The man, the living being, is in this material world on account of his imperfect will. God is very kind that even though he is willing imperfectly to enjoy this material world God is giving him a directed facilities. Just like a child wants to play in certain way, still the child is guided by some nurse, or some servant by, engaged by the parent. So our position is like that. We have come to this material world to enjoy, giving up the company of God. So God has allowed him, "All right, you enjoy and experience. When you will experience that this material enjoyment is not good, then you will again come back." So He is guiding the enjoyment of the living being, especially of the human being so that he may again come back to home, back to Godhead. And nature is the via media agent, under the instruction of God. So if he (is) too much addicted to misuse the freedom, then he is punished, and that is also according to his desire. It is not God's desire that a human being become a pig, but he develops such mentality to eat everything. So God allows him to do everything, to eat everything up to stool in the body of a pig. That is God's concession. But he wanted to eat all this nonsense abominable thing so God gives him the chance that, you take this body of a pig, you can eat up to steel, up to stool. You will not find any difficulty to eat stool. In this way, God is seated in everyone's heart, He is noting down his desires, and to fulfill his different types of desire, God is ordering material nature to give a particular body and his repetition of birth and death in different species…

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Mill. He writes, "Limited as, on this showing, the Divine power must be, by inscrutable and insurmountable obstacles due to the existence of evil." Mill concludes that the existence of evil in the universe, or what he considers to be evil, pain and death, excludes the existence of an omnipotent God. He sees man in a position to aid the intentions of providence by surmounting his evil instincts. So God is not all-powerful, infinite in His power. If He were, there would be no evil, according to Mill.

Prabhupāda: No. God, evil is created by God undoubtedly, but the, it was necessary on account of the human being as, misuse of his free will. God gives him good direction but when he is disobedient, then naturally the evil power is there to punish him. Therefore the evil is not created by God but still it is created. It is necessary. Just like the government constructs the prison house. So this prison house creation is not the government's intention. Government wants that university is sufficient, people may be educated and highly enlightened, but because some, not all, misuses the independence, little independence, he creates evil circumstances, and he is compulsorily put into the prison house. Similarly, we suffer on account of our own evil activities but God, being Supreme, He punishes us for our evil activities. For God there isn't… When we are under the protection of God, there is nothing evil, only good thing. There is no evil. So God does not create evil but man's evil activities obliges God to create an evil situation.

Hayagrīva: To create what?

Prabhupāda: Evil situation.

Hayagrīva: The Christian, there's a Christian conception of God as being at war with Satan, and it appears also that Kṛṣṇa was at war on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and there were wars between the demigods and the demons, but in the Vedic literatures these wars do not seem to be taken as serious confrontation between God and God's enemies, but Kṛṣṇa seems to fight the demons in a playful mood. This isn't the case in Christianity.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful. So His fighting with the demons is, actually it is play. It doesn't affect His energy. Just like a small child is fighting with his strong father. So one slap by the strong father is sufficient to the small child. Similarly the fighting of the demons with God is like that. He gives some chance to play fighting but one strong slap to the demon is sufficient. So there is no question of fighting with God. He is omni-powerful, omni-competent, omni… But the demons are there disobeying. When the living being becomes too much disobedient and harassing to the obedient persons or devotees, then it is necessary that God kills them. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. That two business is going on, to chastise severely the demons, non-devotees, and to give protection to the devotees. That is the idea of fighting with the demons and the demigods. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnām, whenever there is such fight, God takes side of the demigods.

Hayagrīva: Mill pictures it more like a struggle but there's no struggle with them.

Prabhupāda: Struggle, the struggle is there, because it is the… Demon means they are always against God's ruling. That is demon. And demigod means who will accept the rulings of God. That is the difference. In the śāstra it is said that there are two kind of human being, one is called demigod and the other is called demon. The demigods are those who are abiding by the Lord, order of Viṣṇu, and just the opposite number, they are called demons.

Hayagrīva: But he pictures God as struggling.

Prabhupāda: God has nothing to struggle. He is so powerful that He has nothing to do. That is the Vedic injunction. Na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. The Vedic description of God is like this, He has nothing to do. That is right because just like a big man, a big leader, a king, personally he has nothing to do. He has got so many servants, secretaries, ministers, soldiers, so why he has got to do anything? So he has nothing to do. That is described in the Veda, na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate. There is nothing to do actually. Therefore we see Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa picture, the Supreme Lord He is playing on his flute and enjoying. That is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), that is Vedic description, that God is always enjoying, ānandamaya. He has nothing to do. So, because na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate, he has nothing to do because, na tat ca samaḥ abhyadikaś ca dṛśyate, because nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him. Then how things are happening? Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got multi-energies. The energies are acting and they are acting so nicely, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca, and the, naturally it is happening, so systematic, so nice. Just like by God's order the sun has to rise early in the morning, exactly in the time. You watch your watch and you will find exactly in time there is sunrise and there is light, there is seasonal changes, everything in order. That is Godly arrangement. So He hasn't got to struggle, He hasn't got to fight but there is fight by His different agents to kill the evil element of the world.

Hayagrīva: In his Utility of Religion, Mill writes about the power of authority.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And the enormous, what he calls the enormous influence of authority on the human mind. "Authority is the evidence on which the mass of mankind believe everything which they are said to know except facts of which their own senses have taken cognizance. It is the evidence on which even the wisest receive all those truths of science or facts in history or in life of which they have not personally examined the proofs. Whatever is thus certified to them by authority, they believe with a fullness of assurance which they do not accord even to the evidence of their senses when the general opinion of mankind stands in opposition to it."

Prabhupāda: Authority, that is authority. You can not defy it or you can not deny it. That is authority. We are presenting our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on this principle, that you should carry out the orders of the authority, and Kṛṣṇa or God is the Supreme authority. Whatever He is speaking, instructing to the human society, they must accept it without any wrong interpretation. That will make them happy. So those who are sane persons, they do not hesitate to accept the authority of God and they become happy simply by abiding by the orders of the authority. And those who are following exactly the instruction of the Supreme Authority, they are also authority. So that is the difference between the Supreme Lord and spiritual master. Spiritual master is servant authority, and God is the master authority. Therefore sevyā bhagavān, sevā bhagavān. Just like government officer, a servant authority, and the king is the master authority. So if one follows the instruction of the authority and teaches the people in general the same principles, then he becomes servant authority or the spiritual master.

Hayagrīva: Concerning morality, Mill writes, "Belief then in the supernatural, great as are the services which it rendered in the early stages of human development, that is for children," because he says early religious teachings "has owed its power over mankind rather to its being early than to its being religious." That is you can train a child…

Prabhupāda: Religion means to carry out the orders of God. This is the simple definition of religion.

Hayagrīva: But the power over man, he says, is due to early training.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said, that there are two authorities, one God the master authority and God's representative is the master author…, is the servant authority. So it is the duty of the servant authority to preach the instruction of God. That will make the human society happy, and this instruction should be taught from the very beginning of life. That is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja was teaching God consciousness when he was five years old only and he was teaching amongst the class friend. The class friends wanted to play in the tiffin hour and Prahlāda Mahārāja asked them to sit down and to learn God consciousness. So the class friend protested, "My dear friend, why you are insisting now? We are now children, let us play." That Prahlāda Mahārāja protested, "No, no, you should not waste your time playing because this God consciousness should be learned from the very beginning of life." Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. From the very childhood Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be learned. Why from the, so early, that durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. He says that this human form of life you have got after many, many millions of births so we should not misuse this opportunity. We do not know when we shall meet next death, but if before meeting the next death we make our life perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is the special boon to this human form of life. We should utilize it.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Belief in the supernatural, great as though the service is which it rendered in the early stages of human development, cannot be considered to be any longer required either for enabling us to know what is right and wrong in social morality, or for supplying us with motives to do right and abstain from wrong." That is God is not actually necessary for a sense of morality and in communist countries today we see that they instill a social morality in their citizens that is devoid of any conception of God.

Prabhupāda: Morality means to abide by the orders of God. That is real morality. Other things which we manufacture, that you will find different in different countries. But religion and morality both of them are the same principle because religion means to carry out the orders of God, and morality means only the, I mean the principle to fulfill the desires of God. Just like in the battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna was considering, "Killing is immorality." But when he understood by the instruction of Kṛṣṇa that this fight is necessary as it is designed by Kṛṣṇa, so this is morality. Ultimately, morality means to carry out the desire of Kṛṣṇa or God. He knows what is morality. This, another example can be given, that in the warfield the soldier is there and the commander is there. The commander is asking, kill the enemy, and if he considers that "Killing is bad, why shall I kill the enemy?" That is immorality. He should be immediately killed by martial law. He is disobeying the order of commander. So similarly, what you get, orders from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if you carry it that is morality. Any other things manufactured by you, that (is) immorality.

Hayagrīva: He believed that there is no intrinsic value in the belief of the immortality of the soul, because he said, "What…"

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is not philosophical neither rational. If he cannot understand immortality of the soul, then he keeps himself in the animal kingdom. He is not even human being, what to speak of his education and philosophy.

Hayagrīva: He concludes this because he says, "Those who believe in the immortality of the soul generally quit life with fully as much, if not more reluctance, as those who have no such expectation." But we have examples, so many classic examples of Socrates quitting, meeting his death courageously, and how could this be possible if he didn't believe in the immortality of the soul or the…

Prabhupāda: That I have already said, "Immortality of soul is the fact." If one does not understand this fact then he is animal. He is not in the humans category, he is animal category. He is experiencing daily how the soul is continuing even the body is being changed. In his family, he is seeing that the body of a child is changed into the body of a boy, but the father, mother know that the soul is the same. So where is the difficulty to understand the immortality of the soul? So that means it is less intelligence. Therefore, according to Vedic description, one who does not understand immortality of the soul he remains in the category of animals, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

Hayagrīva: Well he seemed to think that belief in the immortality of the soul, belief or knowledge or whatever…

Prabhupāda: It is not belief. It is not the question of belief. It is the question of fact. Just like a man if he says, "I don't believe that I shall become old," then that is his ignorance or foolishness. He must become old man, or the body must become old. So if a man thinks that, when I shall become old, that is immortality of soul, that when I shall become old means when my body will become old. He will continue. It is common sense affair. It is a fact. Where is the question of belief or not belief?

Hayagrīva: Well, wouldn't knowledge…

Prabhupāda: This is knowledge.

Hayagrīva: …of immortality…

Prabhupāda: This is perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Wouldn't knowledge of immortality…

Prabhupāda: If somebody thinks that "In future, fifty years after, I shall become old man," this is knowledge. And if somebody thinks that "No, no, I shall never become old," that is ignorance. Although it is future-a man of knowledge knows that this will be future. So I shall continue to live in future, and I was a child in the past, and I am a middle aged man at this time, so in these three, past, present and future, I am existing. Where is the difficulty? If this simple truth one cannot understand, that what kind of human being he is? I remain in the past as child, the body is finished. Now I am a middle-aged man or young man, the body is different. And in future I shall become old man, that body will be different. So I, as a child, I, as a young man, as an old man, I am the same, all the bodies changing. This is the fact. Who can deny it? So where is the difficulty to understand it? And in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Both you, Me, and all these soldiers, they existed in the past, and they are present existing, and in future they will continue to exist. This is immortality. He says when, I mean very openly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. This living soul, he is never born. That body is changed, that is called birth. But the soul is immortal. So he never takes birth, he never dies. "No, I see that he has died." No, that is the annihilation of his body. Take it from me that by the annihilation of the body, the soul is not dead. This, this is authority and this is, we have to accept this authority. If you don't accept authority, if you have no reason to understand how the soul is immortal, then what we are, except like the animals? So one who does not believe or cannot understand, he is no better than animal. He has no knowledge. This is the beginning of knowledge. Then other (indistinct). First of all one must understand what he is. If he does not know what he is, he is wrongly directed. He is taking care of the body. Just like he, the cage and bird. If you simply take care of the cage without taking care of the bird, is that very good knowledge? That is foolishness.

Hayagrīva: Let me uh… [break] What he is saying here that he doesn't believe that knowledge or belief in the immortality of the soul, gives one courage at death, more courage at death.

Prabhupāda: No. First of all knowledge means to understand the fact. If you do not know the fact then on this wrong background all your knowledge is (indistinct). If the foundation is wrong then what is the value of such knowledge. Therefore the first knowledge is one should understand that he is not this body, he is soul.

Hayagrīva: We should stop. [break] …Mill was not only a utilitarian but a humanist, and he says, "A religion of humanity can have as excellent an effect, perhaps even to a greater extent, than a supernatural religion." The religion of humanity would cultivate unselfish feelings. That is a religion without God, religion with man at the center.

Prabhupāda: So without God, how it can be religion? Religion means, I have already explained, the order of God.

Hayagrīva: Finally on immortality and miracles, he says that there is no evidence for the immortality of the soul and none against it, but…

Prabhupāda: How he can be convinced? There are so many evidences. That is the misfortune of the human society. A learned person like Mill, he cannot understand, what to speak of the others. This is simple truth. Any child can understand but due to misfortune they cannot understand.

Hayagrīva: And finally he says, "The whole domain of the supernatural, the whole domain of the supernatural, of religion is removed from the region of belief into that of simple hope."

Prabhupāda: No. It is neither hope nor belief. It is fact. To us at least, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, it is fact because Kṛṣṇa is coming and giving instruction to Arjuna, and that is recorded, and we are reading that. So where is it is belief or fiction or something? It is fact.

Hayagrīva: He believed that if man could not, by the exercise of his own energies, improve both himself and his outward circumstances, that is if man could not improve the world to do more good for his, to do good for himself and other creatures, vastly more than God had in the first instance done, the being who called him into existence would deserve something very different from thanks at his hands. In other words that if man couldn't improve the world, then…

Prabhupāda: How it can be improved? One man may be good, religious, abiding by the orders of God, and 99.9 percent, they are Godless. So how it can be improved? This material world, as it is, it can be improved only by the increase of percentage of God conscious men, otherwise there is no possibility of improvement. Every man is differently conscious. So you cannot bring them together. For example, just these modern civilized nations, they are struggling in the United Nation Organization, but they could not do for the last thirty, forty years. That is not possible. That is futile attempt. Unless people become God conscious, there is no improvement of the world.

Hayagrīva: One last quote from Mill: "I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet," that is good, "to my fellow creatures, and if such a being can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go."

Prabhupāda: I could not follow.

Hayagrīva: Well, in other words that God must be good in the relative sense as I would say, "Oh, this is a good man." If he could not call God good in that relative sense he would not call God good.

Prabhupāda: God is always good. If one does not know the goodness of God then he is imperfect. God is always good, God is always great. That is the version of all Vedic literature. If one does not know God is good, then he is imperfect in his knowledge.

Hayagrīva: So that's the end of Mill.

Prabhupāda: He says this man is good. What does he mean by this man is good? What is the qualification that he has become good?

Hayagrīva: Mill is pretty much a, being a utilitarian, is pretty much a…

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, let us say…

Hayagrīva: …is pretty much of a materialist, and a good man would work for what he called the greatest happiness principle, that is the greatest happiness for all sentient beings on earth.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: So that would be the good man, would work toward that end.

Prabhupāda: So is there any man who can do good to all others? Is there any man? Any single instance?

Hayagrīva: A man is finite. How can he do good for everyone?

Prabhupāda: Then why does he say this man is good? He is bad in other sense. So how he can say this man is good?

Hayagrīva: Christ said that no man is good.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Hayagrīva: there's only one good. That's God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. You are thinking that this man is, so how he is good? He is limited in his power. He may think of his brother, of his nation, of his society but what does he do of other living beings? So how he can be good? A good man, speaking even a man like Gandhi, he is a good man, but when he was approached that stop cow killing, he could not do anything. Although he is advocating non-violence but he, the violence committing in the slaughterhouse, thousands and thousands of animals being killed, violence, what did he do? So how he is good man? Nobody can be good man.

Hayagrīva: Only a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he abides by the order of the Supreme Good, that's all. If Gandhi could not become a good man, so that as he was killed by enemy, so how the man can be good man? There is no good man, unless he is a devotee of the Supreme Lord, all good. It is physically impossible to become good man, even if he has got the desire. That is not possible. This is our mental concoction. This is good man or bad man. Anyone who is not God conscious, he is bad man, and anyone who is God conscious he is good man. This should be the question. (end)

COMTE.HAY

Auguste Comte

Hayagrīva: …Frenchman, and he is known as a positivist. He felt that positivism reconciles the heart and the intellect. He felt that theology dealt solely with the heart or the sentiments and that philosophy dealt solely with the intellect, but positivism reconciled the two. He writes, "Positivism proves more efficient than theology yet at the same time terminates the disunion which has existed so long between the intellect and the heart. It is a fundamental doctrine of positivism, a doctrine of as great political as philosophical importance, that the heart preponderates over the intellect. When it is said that the intellect should be subordinate to the heart, what is meant is that the intellect should devote itself exclusively to the problems which the heart suggests, the ultimate object being to find proper satisfaction for our various wants," meaning material wants, as well as spiritual wants.

Prabhupāda: So we have got from Bhagavad-gītā that the gross understanding are the senses, though the still finer understanding is the mind, and then intellect, and then the soul. The soul is the original, basic principle of activities. So it becomes grosser, grosser, grosser, and when the soul acts on the platform of senses and body, these are gross activities. So our calculation is the gross activities of the body, then the subtle activities of the mind and still more subtle activities of the intellect, and then spiritual platform. So that is also expressed in another way: pratyakṣa, parokṣa, aparokṣa, adhokṣaja, aprākṛta. These are different stages of knowledge. Direct perception, pratyakṣa; then receiving knowledge from others, then…, pratyakṣa par…, aparokṣa, still further Vedic knowledge. Then adhokṣaja, beyond the experience of mind and senses. Then aprākṛta, transcendental, spiritual. These are the different stages of knowledge and different stages of understanding from gross to the subtler forms of life.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Even the laws of the solar system are very far from perfect. The increasing imperfection of the economy of nature becomes a powerful stimulus to all our faculties, whether moral, intellectual or practical. Here we find sufferings which can really be alleviated to a large extent by wise and well-sustained combination of efforts." Another way, in other words, man can improve on nature. "Those who look wisely into the future of society will feel that the conception of man becoming without fear or boast, the arbiter, within certain limits, of his own destiny, has in it something far more satisfying than the old belief in providence, which implied our remaining passive." So he felt that man's improvement on nature is better than a passive belief in God.

Prabhupāda: So he is…, he does not believe…, there is no belief in God is there? There is no question of? No. But our point of view is different: that God is the ultimate decider of everything. That is called daiva-netreṇa. He may be acting through different agents, but ultimate decision is given by Him. And He is sitting in everyone's heart. He is observing the activities of the individual soul as witness, giving permission. Without God's permission, nobody can act. So He is giving intelligence also, and He is the cause of forgetting. Two things are there, remembering and forgetting. Both these things are coming from God. If He keeps him in forgetfulness, then he cannot remember, and if He gives him the power to remember, he can remember for long, long past activities. So ultimately God is the final director. That is our conception. Man cannot remain independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done, impelled by the three material modes of nature, and the ultimate dictator is the Supersoul, or the Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect, situated everywhere in the heart of the living entity, or even within the atom He is there, and His is the supreme director.

Hayagrīva: He says, "The universe is to be studied not for its own sake but for the sake of man, or rather of humanity. To study in any other spirit would not only be immoral but also highly irrational." This is the old Greek Sophist position, that man is the measure of all things.

Prabhupāda: So the man should be inquisitive to understand the Absolute Truth, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Human intelligence is meant for that purpose, that he should find out what is the ultimate source of everything. That is intelligence. What is the other point he said?

Hayagrīva: "To study in any…, to study in any other spirit would not only be immoral but also highly irrational." To study the universe for any other sake other than the betterment of humanity.

Prabhupāda: Betterment of humanity will depend on studying the cosmic nature or not? What does he say?

Hayagrīva: The purpose for studying the universe is to improve nature, is to improve man's situation in nature. To improve the lot of man.

Prabhupāda: How? How? So far we are concerned, that any living being is destined to a certain position of happiness and distress. By dint of his past activities he gets a particular type of body destined to suffer or enjoy. That cannot be changed. Either you call this fatalism or destiny-every man is destined-that cannot be changed. His intelligence can change only his position with reference to God. His present position is he is forgetful of God and his relationship with God. So this position, forgetfulness, can be changed, and human life is meant for that purpose. So far improvement of economic condition or other condition, that is already fixed up. One cannot change it. So that is confirmation in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: he is creating his own destiny. Just like it is said, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Destiny cannot be changed. It is fixed up. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. Anyone who is very expert and intelligent, he should know that destiny cannot be changed, but he can change his position with reference to his relationship with God. At the present moment he is forgetful of his relationship, but by good association, by Vedic knowledge, by training, he can change his position, and in that way he can improve his destiny also, or he can change his destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. A person, by engaging himself in devotional service, he can change his destiny. Otherwise destiny is very strong. It cannot be changed.

Hayagrīva: He draws a distinction between atheism and positivism. He says, "Atheism, even from the intellectual point of view, is a very imperfect form of emancipation, for its tendency is to prolong the metaphysical stage indefinitely by continuing to seek for new solutions of theological problems instead of setting aside all inaccessible researches on the grounds of their utter inutility. In a word, atheism is still concerned with studying the 'why' instead of the 'how,' and positivism, true positivism, is concerned with the 'how' instead of the 'why.' " In other words, he felt that religion quo religion, religion as religion, had best be set aside because religious questions are basically childish. They can never be answered. So atheism is rejected because atheists "occupy themselves with theological problems and yet reject the only appropriate method of handling them." And for him the only appropriate method is to forget the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: So how can he forget? Atheism will help anyone to improve his position? Just like death. Atheist, if he does not believe in God and God sends him death, how he can counteract it? He has no power to counteract it. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā that death is God for the atheist. Atheists do not believe in God, but God comes to him as death to convince him that "Here I am." So how the atheist can avoid? How it will improve his present situation by atheistic speculation? So how the atheist can become independent? That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: His philosophy is one of total materialism. He states, "A nation that has made no efforts to improve itself materially will take but little interest in mental or moral improvement."

Prabhupāda: That standard of material improvement, that is not fixed up. One person in the material existence, he is satisfied in certain condition of life. Other man is not satisfied in that position; he wants a different standard of life. Then the question will be, "What is the standard of material life?" So far our Vedic civilization is concerned, this, the material necessities are there-eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. These are material necessities, so they are equally visible in animal kingdom or human kingdom-everywhere. It is simply mental improvement of standard, but the standard are different. So what will be the actual standard of materialistic way of life? That is the question.

Hayagrīva: He felt that more…, even more than the vaiśya, the merchant, or the kṣatriya, the administrator, that the man who will usher in positivism will be the working man, or the śūdra. He says, "The occupation of working men are evidently far more conducive to philosophical views than those of the middle classes, since they are not so absorbing as to prevent continuous thought even during the hours of labor." In other words, when a man is working he can think of philosophical issues because he doesn't have to use his mind, oh, like a merchant or a kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: He, he, he has used this word kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa…?

Hayagrīva: Oh, no. I'm using this.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: He says…, he's speaking of the working man.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: In this he is a…, he influenced Marx considerably in his belief in the worth of the working man.

Prabhupāda: But so far we have seen that even the working man requires a director. In the present Communist society there is working man and the manager class. So as soon as you have to accept a manager, then simply working man will not help us. There must be a managerial person. Otherwise, how the working man can be, I mean to say, systematically engaged in working?

Hayagrīva: He believed in forming working men's clubs that would be dedicated to the philosophy of positivism. He wrote, "The real intention of the club is to form a provisional substitute for the church of old times." He's referring specifically to the Catholic Church; he's a Frenchman. "Or rather, the working man is to prepare the way for the religious building of the new form of worship, the worship of humanity."

Prabhupāda: What is that humanity? The working man does not know…

Hayagrīva: Humanity is all mankind.

Prabhupāda: All mankind to do what?

Hayagrīva: The worship of humanity, he spoke of, that the working man will usher in or introduce…

Prabhupāda: These stamps are not very clear. What does it mean, "humanity"? To supply the necessities of the human being? Or what?

Hayagrīva: Well, humanity for him is all…, simply every man.

Prabhupāda: Every man is already there. So what does he mean by "every man," "humanity"?

Hayagrīva: All mankind.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, all mankind, but what is that humanity? Humanity is some activities? Or simply taking the whole human being together, that is humanity?

Hayagrīva: All human beings together.

Prabhupāda: Hm. So all human beings together, but each and every human being he has got some individuality. So even if you take all humanity, how the individuality will be the same? That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: Well this is the, also the contention of Communism…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …that all men are basically the same in relation to the state.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are under the law of state, but his thinking, feeling, willing are not under the state. One man may be thinking just in his own way, another man is thinking in his own way. How this thinking, feeling, willing, psychologically how they can be one? As human being, his quota, he has two hands and two legs and one head. That's all right. But the working of the brain, the thinking, feeling of the mind, they are, they are different. Their every activities… I want to eat something; you want to eat something. Āpan ruci khāo, everyone wants to eat according to his taste. How these things can be adjusted, taking the whole human race together? That is not possible. Everyone has got his individual taste. How you can synchronize them? What is called, synchronize?

Hayagrīva: To reconcile all mankind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: No one would agree with. No one is in total agreement.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: But he felt that positivism…

Prabhupāda: Positivism, that we can understand, that every man eats. So they have to eat. That is positive. Every man sleeps; he must sleep. But the thinking, feeling, willing, even in eating, sleeping also, everyone has got his own taste, own method. So how these things will be adjusted? If you force upon them that "You must eat these things," that will create dissatisfaction.

Hayagrīva: You discussed this in Marx.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He felt… When Comte wrote, Communism was in its incipient state, it was just beginning to form under a philosopher called Feuerbach(?), and he felt that Communism and positivism could work hand in hand. He said, "Positivism has nothing to fear from Communism. On the contrary, it will probably be accepted by most Communists among the working classes."

Prabhupāda: Working classes? Only working classes? So why there is managerial class? If they want classless, only working class, then why they require direction and dictatorship? Why these things are required?

Hayagrīva: The dictatorship of the proletariat. This is the new idea.

Prabhupāda: Then anywhere, anywhere, somebody is working and somebody is… Just like in our body even, the hand is working, the leg is working, but the brain is giving direction. That is natural. How the working class will work without the direction of someone, experienced person?

Hayagrīva: Concerning men and women and the qualities, Comte felt that women were inferior physically, intellectually, and practically to men, but that they surpassed men in goodness and love. He writes, "In all kinds of force, whether physical, intellectual, or practical, it is certain that man surpasses women in accordance with a general law which prevails throughout the animal kingdom. If there were nothing else to do but to love, women would be supreme."

Prabhupāda: Hn. So?

Hayagrīva: Is that so?

Prabhupāda: So that is natural distinction between man and woman, so how it can be changed? Woman is meant for certain activities and man is meant for certain activities. So how this can be changed? Artificially if you change it, it cannot be changed. Then, just like woman becomes pregnant, man does not become pregnant. How it will be changed?

Hayagrīva: Well from this he concludes that woman, being dominated by love, is morally superior to man.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And he considered woman, or all women, to be what he called "The spontaneous priestess of humanity. She personifies in the purest form the principle of love upon which the unity of our nature depends." So the woman is to act almost like the brāhmaṇas, in being a priestess or in charge of the, of the religion of man, being that she's dominated by the heart.

Prabhupāda: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man is meant for… Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will help both of them to make progress in spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: Comte felt that love of God has always interfered with man's love of women. He says, "Love of God is inconsistent with love for our fellow men, and it was impiety for the knight to love his lady better than his God. And thus the best feelings of man's nature were repressed by his religious faith. Women, therefore, are not really interested in perpetuating the old system of religion."

Prabhupāda: Generally, women are interested in comfortable home life. That is woman's nature. They are not spiritually very much advanced or interested. But the…, if man is interested, and the woman helps the man, either as mother or wife or daughter, then both of them, if the woman remains subordinate and the man is making spiritual progress and the woman is helping the man, then both of them will make spiritual progress. Or the woman, without working for spiritual elevation, because (s)he is helping the man (s)he will share the profit, spiritual benefit.

Hayagrīva: The role of woman he envisioned as that of man's companion. He says, "The first aspect, then, under which positivism considers women is simply as the companion of man, irrespective of her maternal duties," and that this friendship or companionship has as its basis sex. He says, "Conjugal union becomes a perfect ideal of friendship, yet still more beautiful than friendship, because each possesses and is possessed by the other. For perfect friendship, difference of sex is essential as excluding the possibility of rivalry." So he felt that sex, there can actually be very little friendship between men, because there's no sexual basis, that sex is the basis for the friendship between the sexes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So woman, sex, there is sex, sexual necessity and the bodily demand. So woman not only give the sex pleasure to the man, but woman should prepare good foodstuff also for the man. The man is working very hard. When he comes home, if the wife supplies him good foodstuff and nice comfort and sex, then the home becomes very happy. That is practical experience. So after hard working, when man comes home, if he finds out good foodstuff and nicely satisfied by eating, and then the woman gives satisfaction by sex, then both of them remain fully satisfied, and then they can improve their real business, spiritual understanding, because human life is meant for making progress in spiritual understanding. Spiritual, first of all they must know that the spirit soul is the basis of material life even, and the body is built up on the soul, and within the body there is soul. This understanding is required both for the man and the woman. Although woman is less intelligent, still, by the help of the husband, he…, she can become intelligent. This we think, we see in the instruction of Kapiladeva. Kapiladeva is the son of Devahūti, and He is engaged in teaching the mother. So a woman, either as daughter, as wife or mother, remains subordinate and gets knowledge from the man, either from the father or the husband or son. Then that life is elevated. We find also in the conjugal life of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī, in the Purāṇas we see always Pārvatī is questioning and Lord Śiva is answering. In this way woman is elevated, and the comforts given by the woman, comforts of the tongue, of the belly, and the genital, in this way, cooperative life, both of them becomes advanced in spiritual life.

Hayagrīva: He felt that in the beginning stages at least, of positivism, woman should take the role of God. He says, "From childhood each of us will be taught to regard their sex as the principal source of human happiness and improvement, whether in public life or in private. In a word, man will kneel to women and to women alone. The worship of women, when it has assumed a more systematic shape, will be valued for its own sake as a new instrument of happiness and moral growth. The worship of women satisfies this condition and is so far a greater efficacy than the worship of God."

Prabhupāda: Worship of man, woman.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to give protection to women. That is not actually worshiping, but maintaining her comfortably, that is the duty of the man. But to worship woman as God, that is not very good proposal. Then he will be henpecked. Worship of God is reserved for God only, not for anyone else. But the exchange, cooperation, between men and women for worshiping God, that is essential. Not that woman should be worshiped like God, or man should be worshiped like God. But the affection sometimes is stressed that you see him as God or see, see her as God. That is sentimental. But God is different either from man or from the woman. Both of them are living entities, both of them meant for worshiping God. Just like sometimes in the Vedic conception the wife is considered as dharma-patnī, religious wife. Means wife helps the husband in the matter of his religious life. That is found in, still in Hindu family: the man is worshiping the Deity and the woman is helping about the paraphernalia Deity worship, helping the husband so that he can immediately come into the Deity room and begin worshiping comfortably. So woman should always be engaged to assist the man in every respect in his religious life, in his social life, in his family life. That is real benefit of conjugal life. But if the woman does not agree with the man, and the man treats the woman as his servant, that is not good. The man should give the woman all protection and the woman should give all service to the man. That is ideal life, family life, conceived in the Vedic way of life.

Hayagrīva: Comte conceives the worship of woman as preparatory for the worship of mankind at large. He says, "The worship of woman begun in private and afterwards publicly celebrated is necessary in man's case to prepare him for any effectual worship of humanity," and that "Only man is the supreme being. It must not, however, be supposes that the new supreme being is like the old, merely a subjective result of our powers of abstraction. Existence in the true sense can only be predicated of humanity."

Prabhupāda: What is the idea?

Hayagrīva: That man is all there is.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Can you explain what is the idea expressed in this sentence?

Hayagrīva: He wants to do away with the Catholic religion and institute the worship of humanity, or the worship of man. He says that everything else is abstraction, is speculation, and that only man is the…, man is the only existence in the true sense. Atheism.

Prabhupāda: Man is existence?

Hayagrīva: Man is the only existence.

Prabhupāda: Then? There is nobody else? What about the animals? Man is the only existence, and what about the animals? They are also…

Hayagrīva: He doesn't seem to consider the animals.

Prabhupāda: So what, what is the position of the animals? They are also living being.

Hayagrīva: The animals would be subservient to man.

Prabhupāda: Therefore…

Hayagrīva: Man is the…, if humanity is the supreme being…

Prabhupāda: We cannot understand what does he mean, "supreme being" and "humanity." The supreme being is God. The human being is also God? Or what does he mean, "humanity"? What is the clear meaning of humanity?

Hayagrīva: Mankind, all mankind.

Prabhupāda: All mankind? There are millions and millions of mankind. So instead of worshiping God you can worship millions of millions of men. Is it possible?

Hayagrīva: He must mean mankind in a generalized sense.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how you can serve the mankind? Suppose if I serve one man, does it…, is it worshiping the mankind? If not, then how you can worship millions of men at a time, or in your life? How it is possible?

Hayagrīva: Well he felt, um, that the worship of humanity could be systematized, just like the worship of God, and he even devised a calendar devoted to the worship of famous dead men, and he felt that the churches could serve for a while as places to carry out these ceremonies. He says, "The buildings erected for the service of God may for a time suffice for the worship of humanity in the same way that Christian worship was carried on at first in pagan temples as they were gradually vacated."

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless one has got full sense of God, they cannot stick to the worshiping method. And we have got practical experience in Los Angeles that we purchased that church because it was not going on at all. They made plans for Sunday school and so on, so on, but somehow or other it failed. Nobody was coming to the church. At last it was sold to us. Now this same church is there, and the same Americans are there, but at the present moment in our Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple it is always packed up. So what is the reason? The same church is there and the same men are there, but formerly nobody was coming, so that the church was sold to us. Now it is all packed up. What is the reason? The reason is that simply religious sentiment, assembly in the church, will not help us unless there is spiritual life and based on philosophy and full understanding of the goal of life. That will make religion perfect; otherwise no.

Hayagrīva: Here is his conclusion and the last point. He says, "The whole effect of positive worship will be to make men free…," excuse me, "The whole effect of positive worship will be to make men feel clearly how far superior in every respect in the synthesis founded on the love of humanity to that founded on the love of God." In other words, love of mankind is superior to love of, of God, or what is known as God.

Prabhupāda: The humanity, love of humanity means to raise the humanity to the real understanding of the goal of life. If the humanity or the whole human society kept into darkness as to what is the goal of life, that is not serving humanity, to keep them in darkness. But to enlighten them with knowledge, the ultimate knowledge is understanding of God and our relationship with God and activities in that relationship, that is real humanitarian work. Otherwise, if we keep the humanity in darkness, only within the jurisdiction of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, or that is, that means to keep them in, in the animal atmosphere. But to teach the humanity about real knowledge, that he is not this body, he is soul, the soul is within the body and the nature of the soul, the necessity of the soul, the goal of soul-these things, if actually taken into hand to enlighten the humanity-that is real service to the humanity. And to keep them in darkness in the animal propensities, that is no service to the humanity.

Hayagrīva: So that's the end of Comte. (end)

MARX.HAY

Karl Marx

Hayagrīva: …and Śyāmasundara discussed the politics of Karl Marx with you but not the religious attitudes of Marx.

Prabhupāda: He has any religious attitude?

Hayagrīva: Well, he, his father was a Jew, but he became converted to Christianity.

Prabhupāda: His father?

Hayagrīva: His father, Marx's father. And Marx's mother, however, remained Jewish, and Marx was raised a Christian. But at the age of twenty-three, after having studied some philosophy at the university, Marx became an avowed atheist. And Hegel, it was Hegel who wrote, "Because the accidental is not God or the Absolute is," and Marx commented on this, "Obviously the reverse can also be said." That is because God is not, the accidental is.

Prabhupāda: God is not?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What, what does…?

Hayagrīva: So everything is accidental.

Prabhupāda: Accidental.

Hayagrīva: Hegel said, "Because the accidental is not,…" because nothing is accidental, "God exists." Marx says you can say it the other way around.

Prabhupāda: How, how we, any sensible man can accept accidental?

Hayagrīva: He thought that…

Prabhupāda: Accidental… Just like a child takes birth, is it accidental? Beginning from the child, so it is not accidental. That there is a father-mother unity, and then, when the child is born, then how you can say accidental? Nothing is accidental.

Hayagrīva: He felt that man…, it is only man who gives reality to God, or, he said, "the gods."

Prabhupāda: Reality must be there. That we… Just like Mr. Marx, he certainly did not like to die, but he was forced to die. Why it takes place unless there is some superior force? We do not wish to have some accident but there is accident; so how you can check it? So in this way, the conception of God, there is always some superior, and there are many other things, common sense, we discuss daily that the, as the nature, things are going on so nicely, they are not accidentally. There are so many planets in the sky. Accidentally they are not colliding but they are remaining in their position. The sun is rising in due course of time, in the morning exactly in time. So there is nothing accidental. And because things are going on very systematically, so there must be some brain behind it, and that supreme brain is God. How you can deny it?

Hayagrīva: Marx felt that true philosophy would say, "In simple truth I bear hate for any and every God is its own avowal, its own judgment against all heavenly and earthly gods who do not acknowledge human self-consciousness as the supreme divinity. There must be no other on a level with it."

Prabhupāda: Human intelligence, unless he comes to the point of the Absolute Truth and the original cause of everything, then how his intellect is perfect? One must make progress. Progress means to go to the ultimate goal. If the human being does not know what is the ultimate cause, ultimate goal, then what is the value of his intelligence?

Hayagrīva: Marx felt that religion is a symptom of a degraded man. He wrote, "Religion is the sigh of a distressed creature, the soul of a heartless world, as it is also the spirit of a spiritless condition. It is the opium of the people. The more a man puts into God, the less he retains in himself."

Prabhupāda: But practically we see that the Communist are also equally failure, even without God. Now these Chinese and Russians, they are not in agreement. So same thing-that those who believed in God and those who did not believe in God the difference existed. And now amongst the Communist there are coming out so many section. So the difference of opinion is still there even denying God, without God. So that is not improvement. The real purpose is to understand what is really God is. That is required both by the Communist or the capitalist. Denying God and acting independently, that has not brought any peaceful condition of the human society.

Hayagrīva: He felt, like Comte, that the proletariat, the worker, would eventually eliminate religion, and he wrote, "The political emancipation of the Jew, the Christian, the religious man in general is the emancipation of the state from Judaism, from Christianity, and from religion generally." So that the worker would become the savior of mankind in emancipating or freeing man from a religion that worshiped a supernatural being.

Prabhupāda: So that has not actually happened. Marx is dead and gone. The Communist theory is already there, but they are not in agreement. The Russians are not in agreement with the Chinese men. Why it has happened? The God is not there; the working class is there. Then why there is dissension and disagreement?

Hayagrīva: Marx felt that religion stood between man and happiness. He said, "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. The demand to abandon the illusions about their condition is the demand to give up a condition that requires illusion. Hence criticism of religion is an embryo, or a beginning of a criticism of this vale of tears whose halo is religion." So religion was like a millstone around the neck of man, and that man must free himself of this illusion.

Prabhupāda: Religious system deteriorates, and without any understanding on philosophical basis. Then, if he is apt to, rejects that religion. But we understand that is fact that there is God on the top of all cosmic manifestation activities, and the law given by the supreme head of the cosmic manifestation, that is religion. And if we create our religious system on sentiments only, that will create troubles only and there will be misunderstandings. But actually it is a fact that there is some brain behind all this cosmic manifestation, and if we know what is that brain, how it is working, that is scientific understanding, and the law given by God is religion. That is our simple definition. Religion cannot be manufactured as law cannot be manufactured. So if we do not know what is God, how He is acting, what…, what are His words, how we have to follow that, that kind of religion will be failure.

Hayagrīva: He felt… Marx writes, "The alien being to whom labor and the produce of labor belong, and whose service labor is done, and for whose benefit the produce of labor is provided can only be man himself." And he felt that throughout history that the working man has labored so hard for the construction of temples to God, and this should be changed, that man should work not to build temples to God but for the benefit of man.

Prabhupāda: So unless one understands that abide by the orders of God is the benefit of man… If there is any, any organization… Even in communistic country there are many men working, but there is one director. In the state also there is one dictator, either Stalin or Lenin. A leader is wanted. So the supreme leader is called God. So the Communist cannot do without leader. Even Karl Marx, he is giving leadership. So, so leadership is wanted. There you cannot change. A person, a society is working under the leadership of God or Kṛṣṇa, and a society is working under the leadership of Marx… What is this? Marx?

Hayagrīva: Marx and Engels and Lenin, they were…

Prabhupāda: And Lenin. So that leadership wanted. Now the question is who will be the leader-Kṛṣṇa or Lenin? That is to be understood. Without leader, either the Communist or the theist cannot work. So, so far accepting leadership, the philosophy is one. Now the question will remain, "Whose leadership is perfect?" That is to be decided. But the Communist cannot avoid leadership.

Hayagrīva: Like Comte, Marx believed that atheism was unnecessary because it was negative denial. He felt that socialism is positive assertion. He says, "Atheism no longer has any meaning, for atheism is a negation of God and postulates the existence of man through this negation. But socialism as socialism no longer stands in any need of such a mediation. It proceeds from the practically and theoretically sensuous consciousness of man and of nature the essence. Socialism is man's positive self-consciousness no longer mediated throught the annulment of religion, just as real life is man's positive reality through Communism." So that Communism really has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

Prabhupāda: No. Our point is that religion is not sentiment. Leadership has to be accepted, either by the Communist or the theist or atheist. There is leadership. So when the leadership is selected and the direction given by the leader, you can take it as some "ism." So religion is the same thing. When we accept the leadership of God and His direction, that is religion. I don't think on principle the Communist can change this idea. The same leader is Lenin or Stalin, and he is giving his direction, and people must follow it. So where is the difference of philosophy? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there, His instruction is there, and we are following. So where is the difference in fact?

Hayagrīva: In either case there is authority.

Prabhupāda: Authority. So where is the difference in principle? There is no difference, but everyone will say that "I am the best leader." But who will select the best leader? What is the criterion of best leader?

Hayagrīva: Well the basic difference is that Marx believes that there's nothing spiritual; everything is material. He says, "An incorporeal substance is just as much a contradiction as an incorporeal body."

Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance, because this body is dead. That what is the difference between the dead body and the… The same Marx and same Lenin was lying, but because there is no spirit sould it was considered as dead. This is imperfect understanding of the man, of the body. Otherwise, I mean to say, man of sense studies there must be a spiritualism and materialism. Spiritualism…, spirit means the force behind the matter. It can be understood very easily that matter as it is, it is inactive. A machine may be very well made, but without a person, a living being, the machine is useless. So that is the difference between spirit and matter. Matter can be active only in touch with the spirit. Similarly, the body is active when there is soul within the body. This can be easily understood, unless one is very dull. Spirit cannot be denied. [break]

Hayagrīva: He says, "Since only what is material is perceptible, knowable, nothing is known of the existence of God. I am sure only of my own existence." He feels that material life precedes consciousness and gives rise to consciousness. He says li…

Prabhupāda: But he does not believe in spirit soul, is that not? Hayagrīva: He says, "Life is not determined by consciousness but consciousness by life."

Prabhupāda: So what is that life? When the life is absent why this body, the used body, is dead stone only? Has he got any understanding of that, what is that life?

Hayagrīva: He felt that consciousness is basically social. He says, "Consciousness is from the very beginning a social product and remains so as long as man exists at all."

Prabhupāda: Why? Why he finishes? Why does he not exist? What is his answer to this?

Hayagrīva: What's that?

Prabhupāda: So long man exists, but why he ceases to exist? Why he stops his existence, he becomes dead matter, his body?

Hayagrīva: Marx had very little to say about death. He felt…

Prabhupāda: But death is a fact.

Hayagrīva: …in the continuance…

Prabhupāda: Death is a fact. He is talking so loudly, but as soon as he is dead he cannot speak any more.

Hayagrīva: Well he would say…

Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Why he becomes completely dumb? If somebody kicks on his face he cannot say anything.

Hayagrīva: Well if life…, if consciousness is dependent on life, when life ceases, consciousness also ceases.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, what is that life? Does he know anything? Without life you cannot speak. But he has not established what is that life.

Hayagrīva: Marx opposed Comte's view of the worship of women, and he also opposed the worship of God in nature. He writes, "There is no question of modern sciences which alone, along with modern industry, have revolutionized the whole of nature and put an end to man's childish attitude toward nature as well as to other forms of childishness. The position as regards to the worship of female is the same as nature worship."

Prabhupāda: But how the science or the scientific brain has surpassed the laws of nature? Has man stopped the nature's action-birth, death, old age, and disease? So how the scientist has conquered over nature? What is the meaning of this conquering? The nature's law is going on. Before Marx, his father died, his mother died, and he also died. So how he has conquered over the nature? The death is continuing.

Hayagrīva: He felt…

Prabhupāda: What is the improvement?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the improvement?

Hayagrīva: He felt that there has been no improvement because religion has kept man…

Prabhupāda: It has nothing to do with religion. It is the work of nature…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: …that the man takes birth and he dies. So what the science has revolutionized in this matter? Has the science stopped birth and death and old age and disease? Then what improvement has done? The work is going on. In spite of talking all theories by Marx or anybody, nature's law is still superseding them. So how the science and others, they have surpassed the laws of nature?

Hayagrīva: Well, he felt that modern industry had made men…

Prabhupāda: Industry, whatever you take, industry. Does it means when a man takes to industry he does not die? How he has conquered over the laws of nature?

Hayagrīva: He couldn't say. How can he say?

Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.

Hayagrīva: He felt that industry or science could make man happier by emancipating man from…

Prabhupāda: We don't think so because in the industry the worker are not satisfied. They are, they are observing strike. Why? If there is happiness, why there is strike?

Hayagrīva: He felt… Well this… Of course Marx wrote before Communism came into actual existence as a, as a political institution, so he's simply theorizing.

Prabhupāda: Still, his theory, he…

Hayagrīva: He's never, he's never, he never saw Communist Russia for instance, or any Communist state. He, he felt that religion has…, was the cause of antagonism between men. He says, "The most persistent form of antagonism between the Jew and the Christian is religious antagonism." How has one solved an antagonism by…

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: …by making it impossible?

Prabhupāda: There is not the question of antagonism. If we actually know who is God and what He desires… I give always this example: if we know the government and the government laws, then there is no antagonism. The government says that "Keep to the right," so there is no question of antagonism; anyone must keep to the right. So there is no question of antagonism. But the antagonism is there when the so-called religious system does not know what is God and what is actually the desire of God. Then there cannot be any antagonism. That perfectness of understanding God and God's regulation or order is clearly described in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are therefore advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "Here is God and here is God's instructions." So if we deliver it, and the proposal in the Bhagavad-gītā, they are all practical. Just like God says that you divide the society in four division-not only worker, but also the good brain, good administrator, and good producer of food. That is the actually the divisions of the society. So without division of the society, if you simply keep worker, who will give them instruction to work? These are all imperfect ideas. But the perfect ideas are given in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we follow that, then the human society, humanity will be in perfect order. So either you call it religion or a system to…, following which one can become peaceful. Religion means, to understand God means, a system. A system is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in three principles. God says that He is the proprietor of everything, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. So we see this planet, and there is different proprietors-individual proprietor of the land or the state proprietor, the king. So there is a proprietor of this earth, either you divide it nationally or you take it wholly. So similarly there are many, many millions of others, so they are called sarva-loka. So there must be a proprietor. So if we know who is that proprietor and how He is working… That is also stated, that the supreme proprietor is the supreme friend of everyone. So if we find out the supreme proprietor, supreme friend, and if we understand the proprietor is the enjoyer of everything, that is real religion. Then peace will prevail. But if we do not know who is the proprietor, what is His function, what is our relationship with Him, that we create antagonism. Somebody will say, "My religion is better," somebody will say, "My religion is better." But we most of all first, first of all know what is religion. Religion, we say, that the order given by the supreme proprietor and to live according to, according to that order, that is religion. If you do not know what is religion, what is the use of criticizing religion or creating antagonism?

Hayagrīva: Well, evidently Marx never got over the antagonism between his father and his mother-his mother who was Jewish and his father who was a Christian convert. He says, "As soon as Jew and Christian recognize their respective religions, there is nothing more than different stages of evolution of the human spirit, as different snakeskins shed by history, and recognize man as the snake who wore them. They will no longer find themselves in religious antagonism but only in a critical scientific and human relationship. Science constitutes their unity. Contradictions in science, however, are resolved by science itself." So that, in other words, science, material science, is to replace this religion, and religion is to be shed by mankind just as a snake sheds its skin. And in this way the antagonisms created between Jew and Christian or, or Hindu and Muslim are reconciled.

Prabhupāda: Reconciled can be only when you actually know what is God. Simply by stamping oneself Christian, Jewish, or Hindu and Muslim, without knowing who is God and what is his desire, that will naturally create antagonism. Therefore the conclusion is, as Mr. Marx giving stress on science, so we should understand scientifically what is religion, what is God. Then this antagonism will stop.

Hayagrīva: He felt that the state should eventually assume the role of Christ. He said, "As Christ is the mediator on whom man unburdens all his own divinity and his whole religious burden, so also the state is the mediator on which man places all his unholiness and his whole human burden." So, in other words, that Christ, of course, relieves man of all his burdens and his sins through his message of salvation, and instead of Christ it would be the state that would assume this role.

Prabhupāda: So Christ gives the knowledge how one can be relieved of the material burden. That is the business of all religious preacher. The religious preacher should give information to the people in general the exact position of God or idea of God, and when people will learn scientifically about God's existence and his relationship with God, then everything will be adjusted. That is wanted. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to give people exact idea of God, exact definition of God, and exact instruction of God. If we take that, take to that, then our religious life will be perfect.

Hayagrīva: The last point is… And this is a point that most Marxists tend to ignore because Communism, when Communism comes to power, they, oh, like in Tibet, I believe when the Communists came in they abolished…

Prabhupāda: All religious system.

Hayagrīva: The Dalai Lama had to flee to India, I believe, and the Tibetan Buddhists had to…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: They had a temple in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Well, he says, Marx says, "The incompatibility with religion with the rights of man is so little implied in the concept of the rights of man that the right to be religious according to one's liking and to practice one's own particular religion is explicitly included among the rights of man. The privilege of religion is a universal human right."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So he felt that man should at least be allowed to practice his religion, although he felt that the state should encourage the abolition of religion. That it is an inherent human right for man to be able to practice religion…

Prabhupāda: That, that I explain always, that state duty is the freedom of religion, but the state must see that a person advocating particular type of religion, whether he is acting according to that religion…

Hayagrīva: But he felt that if this religion should be allowed, it should be individual and not communal. He says, "Liberty as a right of man is not based on the association of man with man but rather on a separation of man from man. It is the right of separation…"

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of separation, that if we accept God as the supreme father. Now the Christian religion believes God as the supreme father. So if the supreme father is there, and if we become obedient to the supreme father, then why, where is the difference of opinion? But we do not know the supreme father and we do not obey the supreme father. That is the cause of dissension. The son's duty is to become obedient to the father and enjoy father's property. So if we know the supreme father, and if we live according to the father's order, so there is question of antagonism, dissension. It is all our own, father being the center. That, the difficulty is that we call supreme father but we do not accept the father's order or what is the order of the supreme father. That is the defect.

Hayagrīva: Well he felt that if man, if man is going to worship God, if man must worship God, he should do so privately, individually, and not communally.

Prabhupāda: No, if God is a fact, and man must worship God, then why not communally? That he, he is pleading that every individual man shall manufacture his own God and worship.

Hayagrīva: Well he would rather do…, do away with the whole thing.

Prabhupāda: No, that is impossible. God means, as I have explained, the supreme father. He is the father of every man or every living entity. So how the father can be different? If man manufactures a different… There are ten sons in the family; the father is one. It is not that one son say, "No, I shall select my own father." So what kind of father he is? So that is imperfectness of understanding the father. Nobody can say that "I can select my own father." How it is possible? Father is one. Similarly God is one, and if one is actually religious and obeying the same one father's order, then where is dissension? That the difficulty is nobody knows who is that supreme father, neither they are prepared to obey the orders of the father. That is the difficulty. In one family there cannot be two father. The one father. Similarly, when you speak of the supreme father, "O father, give us our daily bread," He is father of everyone. So why one should select one father, another man will select another father? That means he does not know who is father. That is the defect.

Hayagrīva: Well he was hoping that this process would eventually lead to the total dissolution of religion.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: That if everyone worships…, well not everybody, but if you must worship God, worship Him in your own way, in your own home.

Prabhupāda: So dissolution of religion means animalism. That has happened actually, because one does not know what is God, soon there is misunderstanding of religion. Therefore if he, actually anyone is serious about religion, then they should sit down together, that "We call God as supreme father, then why should we fight ourselves? Let us obey the order of the supreme father." Then there is no dissension. But they do not do that, neither they know who is the supreme father. That is the defect.

Hayagrīva: You have been to Communist Russia, and was there any church worship? The Eastern Orthodox church used to be the standard Russian religion. Is there any church worship in Russia today?

Prabhupāda: I, I, I did not see, but I saw some mosquelike building in the, what is called, Red Square. I saw that building, but that is vacant. They are worshiping Stalin, no, Lenin. Yes. They are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That I have seen in the Red Square. And there was a church or mosque, I do not know. The building is, can be called a church or mosque…

Hayagrīva: Church.

Prabhupāda: That was vacant.

Hayagrīva: It's more like a museum.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: They keep it as a museum.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have seen. I don't think there is any worship of church.

Hayagrīva: But there must be some… There must be some people in Russia, since God is…

Prabhupāda: They may be doing private, privately. Or I did not see.

Hayagrīva: Well at least now some people are interested in purchasing your books in Russia.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is…

Hayagrīva: What does this mean?

Prabhupāda: It may be because it is Indian culture, and we have quoted from Vedic literature, the original Sanskrit. So they are little after the Indian culture, so when they find that here is the original version in original letters, they may be interested in that.

Hari-śauri: But actually it's a fect that in Russia there aren't many people who still believe in God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Believe in God, why? Eighty percent, ninety percent, they believe in God. That cannot be avoided.

Hayagrīva: But don't the… The young people are Communists, are very enthusiastic about Communism, but as a person grows older and sees death as inevitable, don't the, don't the older people worship…?

Prabhupāda: No, even the young men, in Russia I have seen, they are after also God. They are unhappy because they are not allowed to go out of Russia. They want to see the world, but they are not allowed. Their independence is suppressed. So they are not happy.

Hayagrīva: That's the end of…

Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)

JAMES.HAY

William James

Hayagrīva: This is William James. All of these quotations are taken from his most famous book, which was entitled The Varieties of Religious Experience. He's an American philosopher. He defines religion in this way: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God. The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker."

Prabhupāda: The man or not man, there are living beings, varieties; we simply do not see the man as a living being. We see there are varieties of living beings, beginning from water up to the higher planetary system. There are different forms of living being, we have several times repeated. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, like that, nine millions, ah, nine hundred thousands forms of body within the water; then plants, trees, creepers, insects. So all of them are living beings. God is concerned with all of them. Why man is created? Every one of us in different form we are created. Or exactly not created; we are part and parcel of God. In one word God is the father of all living entities. So the simple relationship is that God is maintainer, we are maintained. This is our relationship. In the material world, as a man may have more than one wife, so similarly God has two prakṛtis, or subordinate energies-material and spiritual. So in the material world the material nature is the mother, God is the father, and varieties of living entities, they are all maintained by the father, supreme father. This is the conception of universal brotherhood. And if we understand our relationship with God as father and son… There are so many sons. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu. All different forms of life, the mother is material nature, and God says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: [Bg. 14.4] "And I am the seed-giving father." So that relationship should be known, and if we act according to that relationship, there will be actual peace and prosperity and advancement of all knowledge. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders-the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad-but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's…, searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion-Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayoḥ. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brāhmaṇas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavān, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.

Hayagrīva: James saw religion as the source of philosophy. He writes, "Since the relation of man to God may be either moral, physical or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow."

Prabhupāda: So philosophy means advancement of knowledge. So we are making progress in knowledge when our knowledge is actually come to the point of perfection of knowledge, that is understanding of God. God is there, but on account of our foolishness, sometimes we deny the existence of God. That is the most foolish platform of living condition. But sometimes we have vague idea, some imagination, and sometimes impersonal, sometimes pantheistic. In this way different philosophies means they are searching after God, but on account of not being perfect, there are differences of opinion or different conception of God. But actually God is person, and when one comes to that platform-to know God, to talk with Him, to see Him, to feel His presence, even to play with Him-that is the highest platform of God realization. And the relationship is God is the great and we are small. So our position is always subordinate. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of William James.

Prabhupāda: So to carry the orders of God is religion. So the more this fact is realized, that is perfection of religion, and dharma, religion, is perfect when he understands who is God and how to learn to love Him.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā samprasīdati

[SB 1.2.6]

When we actually understand God and try to please Him, serve Him, that is really religious life and perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: James gave the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism. He wrote, "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious and yet which do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God, but in strictness, the Buddhistic system is atheistic."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people became atheistic, and especially they began to kill animals in the sacrifice in large quantity. So God, Lord Buddha, appeared, being sympathetic to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. He was very, very much aggrieved to see the poor animals are being killed unnecessarily. So he preached the religion of nonviolence, and because the people became atheist, so Lord Buddha, just to take them under his control, he also collaborated and said, "Yes, there is no God, but you hear me." But he is incarnation of God, so it is a kind of transcendental cheating that in the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God himself, and people accepted his words or instruction. That is Buddhism. So this very word is used, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. Sura-dviṣām, atheist class of men, are always against theist class of men. Therefore their name is that atheist means who are envious of devotees. So in order to cheat these persons who are envious of God or devotee, Lord Buddha appeared and established a system of religion on the platform of nonviolence-no more animal killing. Because those who are animal killers, they cannot understand God (indistinct). That is not possible. They may have some vague idea. So Lord Buddha wanted to stop these sinful activities, and he established the system of nonviolence.

Hayagrīva: James writes about religion and total surrender and involvement. He says, "In the religious life surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused. Even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our life can so successfully fulfill."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without religion the human society is animal society. So religion must be there, and religion means to understand God, to learn how to love God, how to obey His orders, and actually real religion means to accept the order of the Supreme Lord, God. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā this fact is taught. God is personally teaching that "You become My devotee, always think of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, "worship Me," mad-yājī, "and if you cannot do anything more, you simply offer your obeisances unto Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Without any big, I mean to say, attempt for religious system, if one has got the idea that there is God, and even without seeing Him if he follows His instruction, always think of Him… Either you think of Him as personal God or as localized or all-pervading, but God has got form. One has to think of the form of the God. That is easier. And if God is accepted as impersonal, that is very troublesome. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kleśaḥ adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Those who are impersonalist, for them to think of God becomes very difficult job. Who is God and what to think of, so the so-called meditation is very difficult. But if you have got really conception of a God, just like we have got Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead… Although He has got different incarnations, forms, He is the Supreme, so we think of Him. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We can think, because we have got the form, we have got the Deity in the temple, we have got the picture in our room, and so we have got definite conception of God and definite instruction of God. So this system, following the Bhagavad-gītā, is definitive understanding of God, so people may take this system, and by practical example they can see how those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, how they are advancing in the religious system, in every system, because God has instructed everything-religious, political, social, cultural, philosophical, science, physics-everything perfectly. God, God means He gives perfect instruction. So this perfect instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, we, we have accepted. Not accepted; we have known. God is there; you accept or not accept, it doesn't matter. So those who are fortunate, they will see the actual form of God, follow His instruction, and be perfect in the life. That is wanted.

Hayagrīva: James sees happiness as an integral part of religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Happiness is this. When you know God, follow God, you become happy. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as is one actually God-realized person, he is immediately happy, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means happy. There is no more duality, that distress, like that. He is perfectly happy, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā is described as na śocati na kāṅkṣati: there is no more hankering, no more lamentation. Everything is perfect condition. Samaḥ sarveṣu: there is no distinction between man to man, nation to nation, animal to man, because in perfect state, the one who is actually religious, he is no longer interested only in the human society, but he knows that everyone within this material world, either man or animal or trees, they are all living entities, part and parcel of God. They are different forms only. In this way he has got clear understanding, clear dealing and clear life, clear advancement, and clear success. That is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: He says that the natural existence often proves itself to be basically unhappy. "With such relations between religion and happiness, it is perhaps not surprising that men come to regard the happiness which a religious belief affords as a proof of its truth. If a creed makes a man feel happy he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true. Such, rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are actually in clear conception of God, and if you have decided to obey God and love Him, that is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā [SB 1.2.6]. This process of acting in obedience to the order of God, as we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement… We have no other business than to obey the orders of God. God says that you preach this confidential philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness everywhere. So because we are trying to love God, we have got some affection and love for God; therefore we are so much eager to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, "It is Kṛṣṇa's business. Why should we bother about Him?" No. Because we love Kṛṣṇa, and He is happy that His message is being spread, that is our happiness also, that we are trying to serve God, tacitly, without any doubt. So we also feel happy, and God says that He will be very happy if you do this. So this is reciprocation. This is religion. Religion is no sentiment. Actual realization of God, actual carrying out or executing the orders of God, then God is happy, we are happy, and our progress of life is secure.

Hayagrīva: He sees the lover of God as being a morally free person. He writes, "As St. Augustine's maxim, 'If you but love God you may do as you incline,' is morally one of the profoundest of observations, yet it is pregnant for such persons with passports beyond the bounds of conventional morality."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very nice. Morality means to execute the orders of God. If God is satisfied then it is moral. Otherwise our so-called convention in this material conception of life, "This is good," "This is bad," they are described as mental concoction. We must have clear orders from God, and if we execute it for the satisfaction of God, this means, in other words, morality means the action which satisfies God, the Supreme Lord. That is morality. And if he does not satisfy the Lord, then it is not morality; it is immorality. We therefore sing every day yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **, and the orders of God is carried through the representative of God, spiritual master, because directly we have no connection with God. The spiritual master is the transparent via media between God and ourself. In our perfect stage, of course, we can talk with God, but in the beginning, neophyte state, there is no such chance; therefore we have to take instruction from the spiritual master who has got direct connection with God. And if we satisfy the spiritual master, this means we have satisfied God. That is happiness.

Hayagrīva: Concerning evil, James writes, "Evil is a disease, and worry over disease is itself an additional form of disease which only adds to the original complaint. Even repentance and remorse, affections which come in the character of ministers of good, may be but sickly and relaxing impulses. The best repentance is to up and act for righteousness and forget that you ever had relations with sin."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The final morality is… What in this portion?

Hayagrīva: He feels that evil is a disease first…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …but worry about evil is just an orig…

Prabhupāda: Another.

Hayagrīva: …just another disease.

Prabhupāda: So disease, when you are in diseased condition, it means increasing suffering. Disease increases. Without treatment disease increases, as fire, without being extinguished, without attempt of extinguishing the fire, it increases. Debt, compound interest, increases. So therefore the instruction is that disease, fire, and debt should not be kept as it is without any attention. The attention must be there to see that it is not increasing, it is being completely extinguished. That is intelligence. So therefore we must know our suffering is on account of disobedience to the orders of God, or on account of becoming irreligious. So we must find out the real system of religion, and we, there is already, but on account of our ignorance it is now covered by material contamination. Otherwise our relationship with God is a fact. We are thinking independently. That is foolishness. The demons, or the atheist class, they falsely think independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept which they do not want. Ultimately they are forced to accept the punishment-birth, death, old age, and disease-but still, atheist class, they deny existence of God. That is their foolishness. Actually God is there, His order is there, and if we are deficient in carrying out the order, we should take the instruction of bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and we should execute it, and then we become happy.

Hayagrīva: He sees two basic types of religions. One he calls sort of a naive optimism that says "Hurrah for the universe. God's in His heaven, all is right with the world." He calls this "the sky-blue optimistic gospel." And another type of religion, which he calls pessimistic in the sense that these religions recognize the inevitable futility of materialistic life, and they offer deliverance, or mukti, from the fourfold miseries of material existence. He says, "Man must die to an unreal life before he can be born into the real life." So he felt that the completest religions take a pessimistic view of life on this…, life in this world, materialistic life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless one is pessimistic of this material world, he is animal. A man knows what are the sufferings of this material world: ādhyātmic, ādhibautic, ādhidaivic. There are so many suffering pertaining to the mind, to the mind, sufferings offered by other living beings, and sufferings imposed forcibly by the laws of nature. So the world is full of suffering, but under the spell of māyā, illusion, we accept this suffering condition as progress. But ultimately whatever we do, the death is there. All the resultant action of our activities, they are taken away and we are put to death. So under these circumstances there is no happiness within this material world. I have fully arranged for my happiness, and any moment, just after arrangement, we are kicked out; we have to accept death. So where is happiness here? The intelligent man is always pessimistic, that "First of all let us become secure," that we are trying to adjust this material position to become happy. But who is going to allow us to become happy here? This is pessimistic view. And then further advancement of knowledge is there, and when he understands the orders the orders of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], to surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and after surrendering and understanding Him fully, then we go to the world which is full of bliss, knowledge and eternal life, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya. That is perfection of life. So unless we take a pessimistic view of this material world, we shall remain attached to it, and there will be repetition of birth and death-sometimes high-grade life, sometimes low-grade life, but this business is very, very disturbing. We make some arrangement to live here permanently, but nature will not allow us. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. We work very hard; there is unhappiness. And sometimes we may get good results, sometimes bad results, sometimes frustration, so where is happiness? Happiness is only to understand God and act according to His advice, and then go back to home, back to Godhead. That is happiness.

Hayagrīva: James writes of the characteristics of a sādhu in this way. He says, "There is a certain composite photograph of universal saintliness, the same in all religions, of which the features can easily be traced. They are these." And he numbers, "Number one: a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interests; in a conviction not memerly intellectual, but as it were sensible of the existence of an ideal power. In Christian, saintliness this power is always personified as God." So that's the one characteristic of a sādhu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: A feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God, the definition of God is there in the Vedic literature, that God is the great. The Christian idea is also that. That greatness, that if we soberly think what is the greatness, the greatness in six opulences, that God is the richest, God is the strongest, and God is the famous, and God is the wisest, and God is the most beautiful, and God is the perfect renounced. He has got so many states, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29], but still He is not very much interested within this material world. He is in spiritual world along with associates. Therefore our proposition is, let us go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: His second characteristic of a sādhu is thus: "He has a sense of the friendly continuity of the ideal power with our own life in a willing self-surrender to its control."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the ideal. Kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi' anācāra. We are member of the same family. God is the supreme father. That is ideal society. What does he say further?

Hayagrīva: The uh… What?

Prabhupāda: Second point.

Hayagrīva: Oh, the second point again? "A sense of the friendly continuity."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Friendly continuity means the, there are so many relationship, five relationship. First relationship is the master and the servant, and then friend to friend, then son and father, and then beloved and the lover. So these are all friendly relationship. We can, when we are actually in God relationship, we have got natural instinct to accept any one of them. So our friendly relationship with God can be chosen. Somebody likes sometime as friend to friend, father and son, or beloved and the lover, master and the servant, and the Supreme and the subordinate. They are five relationship. Any one of them, when we are actually liberated, free from material contamination, we being eternal part and parcel of God, the particular relationship is revived. That is called svarūpa-siddhi, revival of our original relationship with God.

Hayagrīva: Three, he speaks of, "An immense elation, or happiness, and freedom as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. This material selfishness is māyā. Actually that is not selfishness. Real selfishness is to know the relationship with God. But persons who are engrossed with the spell of māyā, illusory energy, they do not know that. Mostly, 99.9%, they have vague idea of God, and how they will know the relationship? So, so that our actual business, first business is to have complete idea, complete sense of God and our relationship. That is the business of human life. Therefore in the Vedic process, the real business is realize God. Either you take yoga system or jñāna system, and bhakti is cent percent simply realization of God. That is the business of human life. He hasn't got to do any other thing. That is practical understanding of God. A perfect human being knows that "My necessities of life is supplied by God, so I have no business to improve the economic condition." That cannot be done also. Nobody is going to be very rich, all of them. According to the destiny he gets his position. So one who is self-realized, he does not want to improve the material condition of life, but he wants to improve the spiritual conception of life. That is human life.

Hayagrīva: Four, he sees, "a shifting of the emotional center toward loving and harmonious affection, toward yes and away from no, where the clangs of the non-ego are concerned." That is to say, agreeing with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is asking always that "You agree to obey My orders," and as soon as we accept this principle, we immediately becomes liberated: "Yes, from this point I shall now fully agree to the the orders of Kṛṣṇa, or God." That is liberation. The liberation is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: to give up a mode of life other than devotional life. Muktiḥ hitvā anyathā rūpam. Our life is meant for rendering devotional service to the Lord. As soon as we give up this principle of life, devotional service to the Lord, that is our anyathā rūpam, means our living condition otherwise, except devotional service. That living condition otherwise than the devotional service is called conditioned life. And as soon as we come to this platform of devotional service, that is mukti, liberated life. Muktiḥ hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. To remain in one's own constitutional position is called mukti, or liberation. [break]

Hayagrīva: James believes that the existence of many religions in the world is not regrettable but is necessary to the existence of different types of men. He says, "All men have, should have… Should all men have the same religion? Ought they to approve the same fruits and follow the same leadings? Are they so like in their inner needs that exactly the same religious incentives are required? Or are different functions allotted to different types of men, so that some may really be the better for a religion of consolation and reassurance whilst others are better for one of terror and reproof?" And he goes on to conclude that he thinks that difference…

Prabhupāda: This is religion. Therefore I was talking in this morning that accept God as the supreme father and the material nature is the mother and we living entities, in 8,400,000 forms, we are all sons of God. So everyone has got the right to live at the cost of the father. The father is the maintainer-that is natural-and we are maintained. So every living being should be satisfied in the condition given by God. Man should live in his own condition, the animal also should live in his own condition. Why the man should encroach upon the rights, living right of other living entities like the animals? No. Nobody should encroach upon other's right. Everyone is son of God. Let him be maintained by the orders of God. That is ideal life, family life. All living entities are the members of the same family. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says that kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi' anācāra: just live in the family of Kṛṣṇa without violating the rules and regulation. Then it is family life. Or without violating the orders of God. Just like in the family the father is the chief man, and the sons can live very happily by being obedient to the father. There is no trouble; father will give all supplies and necessities if we remain obedient to the father, and all the brothers can live peacefully. A very common example. But they will not do that. They will encroach upon others' jurisdiction. That is the cause of disturbance: obeying…, disobeying the orders of God.

Hayagrīva: Typical of the latter part of the nineteenth century, James' only acquaintance with Hinduism was through the impersonalists, and he spoke of samādhi and the mystical experience in this way. He says, "The Vedantists say that one may stumble into superconsciousness sporadically without the previous discipline, but it is then impure. The test of its purity, like our test of religious value, is empirical. Its fruits must be good for life. When a man comes out of samādhi they assure us that he remains enlightened-a sage, a prophet, a saint, his whole character changed, his life changed, illumined." What is this samādhi or…

Prabhupāda: Samādhi means ecstasy, always in God consciousness. That is samādhi. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. The yogis means they are always remaining in meditation of the Supreme Lord. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā. Mind is always absorbed in God. That is samādhi. He has no other thought than God. So if we can continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is samādhi.

Hayagrīva: Now James equates this mystical union, or samādhi, to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And he therefore concludes that mystical states cannot be sustained for long, except in rare instances. Half an hour or at most an hour or two seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. "Often, when faded, their quality can be but imperfectly reproduced in memory, but when they recur it is recognized, and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That richness comes to perfection when one thinks of Kṛṣṇa constantly, without any cessation. That is recommended in the yogic chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate

yo māṁ sa me bhak…

[Bg. 6.47]

Uh…

Hari-śauri: Yuktatamo mataḥ.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Sa me yuktatamo mataḥ?

Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. You can find out that verse.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gata āntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate (yo māṁ)

sa me yuktatama…

[Bg. 6.47]

He is first-class yogi who does not cease to think of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we keep always in the thought of Kṛṣṇa, twenty-four hours. Then we do not fall down from the yogic principle. That is our…

Hayagrīva: Such mystical states, as James points out, have been also experienced momentarily and artificially through drugs such as ether. William James himself took ether…

Prabhupāda: These are all artificial thing. This is not sustained.

Hayagrīva: LSD and these…

Prabhupāda: Another artificial names. Artificial things cannot sustain, but if you engage yourself in the devotional process, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevā [SB 7.5.23], always hearing a about Kṛṣṇa, always talking about Kṛṣṇa, always remembering about Kṛṣṇa, always engage in some service in the temple-there are so many services-or distributing literature about Kṛṣṇa, in this way, if you keep always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business, that is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: James, after analyzing all of these religions, different religious experiences, he gives his own conclusions, and he concludes his book in this way. He gives five basic conclusions. The first-one-"That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance." [break]

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material world means it is existing in the spiritual effulgence of the Lord. Just like all the planets they are resting, living within the sunshine, but by geographical position, when it is back side, the sun is not in the front but in the back, then it becomes dark. Similarly, everything is existing in the spiritual effulgence, rays of the Lord, and when you forget, this is called material world. So the material world is in that piece of spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. So when we…, our revival of consciousness, God consciousness, then there is no more material world. For such person who is advanced in spiritual consciousness or God consciousness, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual.

Hayagrīva: Well that's his second conclusion. His second is that "Union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual realization.

Hayagrīva: Three…

Prabhupāda: There is no material realization. No more material realization means no more forgetfulness of our eternal relationship with God. Then it is spiritual.

Hayagrīva: Three: "That prayer or a communion with the spirit thereof, be that spirit God or law, is a process wherein work is really done and spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, within the phenomenal world, for religion produces a new zest which adds itself like a gift to life and takes the form either of lyrical enchantment or of appeal to earnestness and heroism." In other words, our relation with God in the world gives…

Prabhupāda: That we have al…

Hayagrīva: …it's like a gift to life.

Prabhupāda: …already explained. We have got five relationships. To realize the creation of God with awe and veneration, appreciation, that is one relationship. This is called śānta rasa. Then further progress is that to offer himself to serve God. That is called dāsya rasa. And further advancement, to treat God as friend, that is sākhya rasa. Then accept God as son, that is vātsalya rasa. And accept God as the most beloved, that is mādhurya rasa. So in this mādhurya rasa, to accept God as the most beloved includes other relationships; therefore here is the highest perfection of relationship. Although all other relationships they are as good, but it depends on the devotee's choice whichever relationship we like. The result is the same, but by comparative study it has been decided by the saintly persons that our relationship with God as the lover and beloved, that is the highest position.

Hayagrīva: The fifth is an assurance of safety and temper of peace and, in relation to others, a preponderance of loving affections.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. When you actually come in contact with God, these senses prevail. What is that? The last point?

Hayagrīva: An assurance of safety and a temper of peace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A devotee is always confident that "I am sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa, so in case of danger Kṛṣṇa will save me." The, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja life we see. He was helpless child, and his father, great demon, always chastising him, but he was confident that Kṛṣṇa would save him. So when the things became too much intolerable, so Lord appeared as Nṛsiṁhadeva and killed Hiraṇyakaśipu. So therefore a devotee's protection by God is always guaranteed, and one who is pure devotee, he is not disturbed by any material condition. He keeps his firm faith in God. That is called surrender. It is called avaśya rakśibe kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālanam, to continue the faith that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." This full suvrender means to accept things which is favorable to God consciousness, to reject things which is unfavorable to God consciousness, to have firm faith of security under the protection of God, to enter into the family of God. These are the different processes of surrender.

Hayagrīva: He concludes, "In opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled. The universe takes a turn generally for the worse or for the better in proportion as each one of us fulfills or evades God's demands."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is concept. God demands that "You fully surrender unto Me." So when one fully surrenders unto God, that is perfection of life.

Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of James. (end)

DEWEY.HAY

John Dewey

Hayagrīva: This is John Dewey, who believed that religions were basically myths and that experience is of the utmost necessity. He felt that philosophy was superior to religion. He writes, "The form ceases to be that of the story told in imaginative and emotional style and becomes that of rational discourse, observing the canons of logic." So it's apparent that Dewey considers religion simply to be a story told in imaginative and emotional style, and for him philosophy observes the canons of logic. So for him the Vedic accounts of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes would be imaginative and emotional, or mythic. How does one argue against this kind of a…?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is historical fact. It is not imagination. It is, to think like that, is imaginative. Kṛṣṇa… The Mahābhārata is there. It is accepted by all Indian authority, and Kṛṣṇa is a historical figure. How it can be imaginative? So… he may think like that, like a madman, but India's leader will not accept that. Especially the ācāryas who are controlling the spiritual life of India, they do not accept a lunatic foreigner speaking like that.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "According to the religious and philosophic tradition of Europe, the valid status of all the highest values, the good, true and beautiful, was bound up with their being properties of ultimate and supreme being, namely God. All went well as long as what passed for natural science gave no offense to this conception. Trouble began when science ceased to disclose in the objects of knowledge the possession of any such properties. Then some roundabout method had to be devised for substantiating them." In other words, science began to investigate the phenomenal universe without admitting the proprietorship of anyone, of God, and this brings a breakdown in morality and value. So Dewey attempts to reassemble these shattered values in a philosophical way, but he, like science, attempts to do so without recognizing the proprietorship of an ultimate and supreme being.

Prabhupāda: That is another lunacy, because everything has a proprietor. So why this big cosmic manifestation will not have a proprietor? To accept the proprietor is natural, and that is logical. And not to accept a proprietor, that is lunacy. How it can be possible? Just like we give this example: We are standing on the land. We know that there is government, there is proprietor. And a few yards after, when this ocean begins, how we can think of that the ocean has no proprietor, no government? How any philosopher and man having logic can believe it? What is the answer?

Hayagrīva: Well, he felt that science dealt a death blow to the religions as we know them, to the orthodox religions.

Prabhupāda: No, religion we have repeatedly explained. Religion means to accept the laws of God. That is religion.

Hayagrīva: He re…, excuse me, he refers to historical religion.

Prabhupāda: Historical… It is historical. The whole cosmic manifestation has a date of creation; therefore it is historical. Anything material which has a beginning, that, that is history, it has got a history. So people do not know how long before this material world or cosmic manifestation was created. It is beyond their conception. Even the mathematical count, millions and trillions and millions, will not do, when he began, but it has got a history-beyond the calculation of so-called scientist and mathematician, but there is history. According to Vedic description there is history. There is history of Manu, there is history of, of Brahmā. So in this way there is a regular history. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā a small instance of history is being given: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17], that the Brahmā's daytime, just like we have got solar calculation, twelve hours' daytime, so that twelve hours of Brahmā is calculated sahara-yuga-paryantam. One yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of years. Similarly, thousand times, that is Brahmā's twelve hours. So everything is relative. We are tiny people. We have got history of this world, some thousands of years, but Brahmā is greater than the human being. His history is different. Here everything is relative. My history is different from an ant's history. Similarly a man's history is different from Brahmā's history. So historical does not mean whatever you have calculated, that is history. History is relative according to the person. So these people, they have no information of the greater personalities than us, but we have got information from Vedic literature. In the higher planetary system, there the duration of life, standard of life is different from here.

So in this, on this platform, mostly the philosopher, scientist, they are Dr. Frogs. So their calculation is not correct. So whatever they cannot calculate, they take it as myth, imagination, that just a foreign. Even for ordinary human being to think of Brahmā's duration of life, huh, forty-three hundred thousand multiplied by one thousand, and that becomes twelve hours of Brahmā, because it is beyond your calculation, he thinks it imaginary. So unless one has got thorough knowledge of the whole universe, so for him it is imaginary. But it…, one man's imaginary may be a fact to the other man. It depends on the knowledge. So unfortunately, the so-called scientists, philosophers on this planet, they are thinking in their own terms and they are taking it final. So they must think other things as mythological, imaginary. But actually that is not the fact.

Hayagrīva: Dewey was an American writing in the early part of the twentieth century, and he writes, "Logic demands that in imagination we wipe the slate clean and start afresh by asking what would be the idea of the unseen." In other words, he feels that it's time to set aside the orthodox, what he calls superstitious religions, and create a new religion. In other words, we must define God and religion anew.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required. Because in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is also accepted that except a Vedic religion, all others are cheating religion because they have no perfect knowledge. It is clearly stated that cheating type of religion is rejected from the Bhāgavata religion. Bhāgavata… The sum and substance of Bhāgavata religion is accepting God as the supreme controller. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. This is beginning. And what is that Absolute Truth? Janmādy asya yataḥ, itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ: [SB 1.1.1] that there is a principal, Brahman, from whom everything has come. So unless you find out what is the ultimate source of emanation, the knowledge is perfect, hum, imperfect. But you must have to admit, from your experience, that everything has a source of emanation. Anything has. You cannot go beyond your experience. You see this table. This table has got a history. Somebody has collected the wood and he has made into a shape. So everything that you see, it has got a history. So similarly the whole creation, it has got a history, and to know who has created, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], that is perfect knowledge. If you do not know, if you cannot reach, that is your inability. Don't think that it is imaginary, mythological. That is your imperfect of knowledge. You cannot reach, and you make a conclusion like a crazy man. That is not philosophical at all.

So there is no question of starting a new religion. The religion is already there, but poor people, they do not accept it. The simple thing is that somebody must be the supreme controller. He is God. And everything under His control. Actually, if somebody asks, "What is your experience?" so the real experience is that we see two things. One thing is matter, inert matter, without any consciousness. Another thing we see, another element: with consciousness. Two things we see. You cannot go beyond this. And above two, these two things, there is one controller-the third element. The third element is the Absolute Truth, and these two elements, one inert and one living, they are categories. So this is a fact. So the third element, the controller of the living, animate and inanimate, the controller is the Supreme Lord. So this is simple philosophy. Everyone can understand that there is a supreme controller, and both these visible, animate and inanimate objects, they are controlled by Him. This is a simple fact. Why these big, big philosophers cannot understand this? Anyone can understand. What is the difficulty?

Hayagrīva: He says, "What I have been criticizing is the identification of the ideal with a particular being, especially when that identification makes necessary the conclusion that this being is outside of nature," that is, transcendental, "and what I have tried to show is that the ideal itself has its roots in natural conditions. It emerges when the imagination idealizes existence by laying hold of the possibilities offered to thought and action." In other words, there is no God outside of nature. God has His roots in nature.

Prabhupāda: Why does he say? That is his inexperience. God means supreme controller. So everything is being controlled. So how he can say there is not God? That is his imperfect knowledge. The nature is going on in perfect order, and we have got experience that without being a director, controller… [break] …first proposition, that the natural phenomena, that is going on in systematic way, and we have no experience anything going on in a systematic way has no controller. How they can think of this big phenomena without any controller? At least any sane man cannot think like that, that it is going on automatically, it is happening automatically. The season is changing in time, the sun is rising in time, the moon is rising-everything is going on systematically-and how he thinks that there is no controller, there is no God? That is insanity. To become atheist is, means, a greatest insane person. It has no meaning to become atheist.

Hayagrīva: He wouldn't consider himself an atheist, but…

Prabhupāda: Anyone who cannot think of a supreme controller, he is an insane man. He is not a sane man. How he can propose? Where is his experience? Everything is going on under some control. Even this wonderful machine, computer, that requires an operator. So how one can think of without controller things are going on very systematically? This is insanity. It has no meaning.

Hayagrīva: He sees God emerging as man's striving for perfection.

Prabhupāda: No, that God is there. Man's perfection will depend on his ability to understand God. God is already there. It is not that a perfect man is by imagination creating God. Anything created by man, that is controlled. God is the supreme controller. So man is dying under the control of the Supreme, so how man can create God? He is already under the rules of God, that he must die, he must suffer from disease, he must become old. So if he cannot control what is already imposed by God, how he can think of God? How he can create a God? That is also another insanity. First of all you become independent of the laws of God, then you can think of creation of God. You are completely under the supremacy of the Supreme Lord. How you can think of creating God? That is another insanity. So all these atheistic person who are thinking that "We can create God," "God is imagination," they are all insane person.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Use of the words 'God' or 'divine' to convey the union of actual with ideal may protect man from his sense of isolation and from consequent despair or defiance…"

Prabhupāda: That will never happen. The so-called unity of man by the imaginative process of so-called intelligent philosopher, it has never become possible, neither it will become possible, because every man has got little independence. So unless they are controlled, they will assert their independence, and by this imaginative process they cannot be united. That is another insanity. History has never proved this in the past, and it is not going on in the present, so naturally in the future it will not be possible. That is sane man's conclusion.

Hayagrīva: You…, when you discussed Dewey with Śyāmasundara Prabhu, you said that Dewey wants to make God his scapegoat-why does he mention the word God, and he uses the word God to serve his own ends. His philosophic conception is the working union of the ideal and the actual. This is rather vague, but this is his definition of God: Man striving for perfection.

Prabhupāda: He can define, but he must be a very, what is called, sane man to define. The sane man's definition of God is there. Just like everyone says, "God is great." So now if he can define what is the greatness… The greatness, if one man is very rich, we consider him great man. If a man is very wise we call him a great man. If a man is very strong or influential or beautiful… Greatness according to our estimation. So all this greatness must be there in God. God must be the richest, God must be the strongest, God must be the most beautiful, God must be wisest. In this way, six opulences calculated, and when these opulences are in completeness, that is God. So that completeness we find in the history Kṛṣṇa. In the history of humanity it is very easy to find out that when Kṛṣṇa was present on this planet, so He proved the strongest, the most influential, the most beautiful, the supreme wise-everything-supreme famous. Kṛṣṇa's fame, fame is still going on. Kṛṣṇa's knowledge, stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, is still being studied all over the world. This is the proof that He is God. And all saintly persons in India, they are not controlled by these foreign Dr. Frogs. So these big, big ācāryas, like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Śaṅkarācārya, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, all big ācāryas, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. So there is complete uniformity of the authorities in the past, present and future. So here is God. If one cannot accept Him God, then he is insane. With so many evidences, and it is practical. Many evidences when Kṛṣṇa was present He showed; that is history. But these imperfect Dr. Frog, when they see God is doing something uncommon, they take it "Myth, mythology."

Hayagrīva: Now…

Prabhupāda: God… Huh?

Hayagrīva: They take it?

Prabhupāda: They take it as mythology. Myth.

Hayagrīva: Mythology.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Just like Kṛṣṇa is lifting the hill, that what is the difficulty for God to lift a hill if He is all-powerful? But as soon as they read it, that Kṛṣṇa is lifting hill, they will take it as mythology. So when God shows that "I am God," that is mythology, and they imagine God. That is rascaldom. When God comes and shows His godly power, they take it myth, mythology. And they imagine God according to your definition. Is that sanity? The ācāryas have described Him: "Yes. Kṛṣṇa lifted this Govardhana Hill," and they have appreciated. And they are taking as mythology. That when there is Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum ā… [Bg. 9.11]. These rascals, when God shows His godly power, they take it mythology. Just see how much fool they are, and we are to follow these Dr. Frogs.

Hayagrīva: He differs from Comte and Marx in that he did not believe that humanity is the object of worship. In fact, he excludes everything as an object of worship. He writes, "Nature produces whatever gives reinforcement and direction, but also it occasions discord and confusion. 'The divine' is thus a term of human choice and aspiration."

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of human choice. Can you say that death is my choice? Huh? It is forced. So the, wherefrom the force is coming, that is God. Nobody wants to die, but there is force. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. You must become old man. The sanity is to find out wherefrom this enforcement is coming. That is Supreme. Just like the government. If you disobey the orders of government, immediately you will be punished. So we can understand there is supreme authority. Similarly, I do not want to die. I am enforced to die. So there must be some supreme authority. That supreme authority is God. Either call nature or God, whatever you call, there is something supreme which is controlling you. How you can philosophize and imagine that man can imagine God, man can imagine this and…? That is insanity.

Hayagrīva: He says, "A humanistic religion, if it excludes our relation to nature, is pale and thin, as it is presumptuous when it takes humanity as an object of worship."

Prabhupāda: Humanity is not worship. Every, every… According to God conscious person, everything is worshipable, even an ant, but supreme worshipable is God. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So that is wanted. Nature, these persons, they are taking as nature as the Supreme. But those who are actually in awareness of God, they know that God is the controller of nature also. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyadhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Nature is matter. Matter cannot act independently. In the Bhagavad-gītā, as (indistinct), the difference, what is the difference between matter and the living being. The difference is the matter is being handled, controlled by the living being. Therefore living being is the superior nature, and matter is inferior nature. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. This earth, water, air, fire, etc., everything, these are inferior nature. Just try to understand nature. And above this inferior nature there is superior nature. That, the inferior nature, is a vast ocean, but the superior nature, man, has a big ship. The ocean will not allow to walk over it, and they have control over the ocean, not exclusive control, but little control. Because he is living being, he can cross over the big mass of water by inventing some means, so that at least they are controlling to some extent. But above this ocean and the man who is trying to control over the ocean, there is another controller. That is supreme controller. That is God. It is very easy to understand that there are two natures: one, the active nature; inactive nature. And above these both, active and inactive, there is another active personality who is controlling both of them. That we can understand by Vedic literature very clearly. There is no difficulty. But those who are obstinate, they will not accept. That is their misfortune. What can be done? But this is the fact.

Hayagrīva: In the, in the realm of philosophy and religion…

Prabhupāda: In the history we find that Kṛṣṇa went within the sea. Within the sea. Kṛṣṇa penetrated the universe. He is God. God can do that. We have no conception of God, and when God comes and shows His godly power, we take it as mythology. Then what, how God will be proved? When you see Him doing uncommon activities, you say it is mythology; and he does not see, he will say there is no God. This is your position. So this is not sanity. It is all insanity. Let them talk all this nonsense. We do not accept that.

Hayagrīva: He says in the realm of philosophy and religion, certainty is impossible. He says, "The moment philosophy supposes it can find a final and comprehensive solution, it ceases to be inquiry and becomes either apologetics or propaganda. Any philosophy that in its quest for certainty ignores the reality of the uncertain in the ongoing processes of nature denies the conditions out of which it arises."

Prabhupāda: There is uncertain when you do not accept the reality. The reality is God, and God is explaining how things are going on, but you take it as mythology. Then how you will know?

Hayagrīva: No way.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: No way.

Prabhupāda: You are rascal. When it is explained by God Himself, and actually by doing it, you do not accept it. And still you imagine. So your position is very precarious. When God comes Himself and shows Himself, His activities, we think it is mythology. Then how we can be convinced? Direct perception and authority. And the direct perception, when He comes you take it that it is mythology. When the direct perception history is written about Kṛṣṇa in Mahābhārata, and then you take it as mythology. Then how he will believe it? And the authority accepts, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. He has done it." You say, "I don't accept it." Then how you will be convinced? What is the way to convince you? Huh? What is the way, possible way?

Hayagrīva: He says, for him he says, "There is but one sure road of access to truth: the road of patient, cooperative inquiry, operating by means of observation, experiment, record, and controlled reflection."

Prabhupāda: Record is there already, Mahābhārata, and those who have seen, they have confirmed it. Vyāsadeva has confirmed, Nārada has confirmed. Arjuna talked with Him personally, he has confirmed, and everything is there in the record, but you don't believe. Then how you can be convinced? Neither you have got perfect senses to see. Then what is the way to convince you? You will remain always in darkness. There is no way out. You can, within your dark well, you can go on imagining, Dr. Frog, but you will never have perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: Well that's the conclusion of John Dewey. Most of the other points have already been dealt with. (end)

KIERKEGAARD.HAY

Soren Aabye Kierkegaard

Hayagrīva: This is Kierkegaard, who was a Danish philosopher, who lived from 1813 to 1855. He is generally regarded as the father of existentialism. He was Christian. He wrote, or he believed, that if the truths of religion are not innate within man, they must be brought to us by a teacher. If God comes to teach as He is, man would be over awed or over…, overcome. Therefore he comes as a servant of God in human form.

Prabhupāda: So man's general position is as good as animal. Therefore in the human society there is system of education. But man, being advanced in consciousness, he can be properly educated so that he can understand what is God by the teachings of authority, and that is our Vedic system. In the human form of life-not generally but in special cases-they are very much inquisitive to understand about God. That is technically called brahma-jijñāsā. inquiring about the Absolute. And that is only possible in the human form of life. Generally, any human being can be educated in the spiritual life or God consciousness, but if anyone awakens his inquiry, as it is stated, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21], if one is actually anxious to inquire about God or the supreme knowledge, then he has to approach a guru. That's a fact. Without approaching a bona fide guru there is no possibility of understanding the nature of God and our relationship with Him. So one has to approach a guru. To accept a guru is not a fashion, it is necessity. If one is actually inquisitive, it is a necessity. So the qualification of guru is also given there, that what sort of guru you should search out. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātam [SB 11.3.21]. A guru is he who has taken full training in the ocean of spiritual knowledge or Vedic knowledge, śābde pare. Śābde means the Vedic words, or vibration of sound, but that is not ordinary sound, material sound, but spiritual sound. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, this spiritual sound. So one who has taken full bathing in the ocean of spiritual sound, and how he has realized the symptom of his life is that such guru is no more interested in materialistic way of life. Such guru does not manufacture gold or jugglery words to attract some foolish men and make money. That is not guru. Guru means who has no more interest in material things. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has taken shelter of the Supreme Lord, completely satiating his material desire. So one should approach such guru, then tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. By serving such guru, bona fide guru, and surrendering unto him, and then questioning him, he can make actual progress in spiritual life, and then he understands properly what is God, what is our relationship with Him. That is perfection of human life.

Hayagrīva: But isn't he incorrect in say…, in maintaining that if God comes to teach as He is, man would be overawed; therefore He comes as a servant of God in human form.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But Kṛṣṇa came as He was and taught.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa came as He was, but people misunderstood Him, because He was talking just like a human being. But people… And they, when He asked sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], people thought, "It is too much," so they are misguided. Therefore later on He came as a devotee, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to teach how to approach God. That is the function of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya understood His activities, and he wrote about one hundred verses appreciating Caitanya Mahāprabhu's activity, and the first one is,

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-

śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī

kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye

[Cc. Madhya 6.254]

The, his, he understood Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, while they were talking on the Vedānta philosophy, that Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the same Kṛṣṇa; now He has come to teach the human society bhakti-yoga, which is vairāgya-vidyā. Devotional life means renounced life. Vairāgya-vidyā, vairāgya means renunciation. Anyone who has no more interest in materialistic way of life, that is bhakti-yoga. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti… So here is the person, Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, in the form of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is none but the same original Kṛṣṇa. He has come to teach us the same philosophy as He did while teaching Arjuna Bhagavad-gītā, but this time He has come as a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, another authority, Rūpa Gosvāmī, understood Him, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa, and He is the most munificent incarnation, because Kṛṣṇa, in order to give Himself to the devotee, demanded full surrender. And here Caitanya Mahāprabhu, without any demand, He is not only giving Kṛṣṇa but the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya." So Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is affectionate towards us because we are all sons. We are rotting in this material way of life. So He comes Himself, as He is. He comes as a devotee. He leaves His instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Again He advises His devotees to preach the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. So He is always anxious to enlighten the human being how to go back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Kierkegaard wrote one book called Works of Love, in which he saw God as the hidden source of, of love. He says man, "A man must love God in unconditional, in unconditional obedience and love Him in adoration. It would be ungodliness if any man dared to love himself in this way or dared to love another man in this way or dared to permit another man to love him in this way. God you must love in unconditional obedience even if that which He demands of you may seem injurious to you, for God's wisdom is incomparable with respect to your own."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. God demands that "You give up your own plans or any other's so-called intelligent person's plan or philosopher's plan. Take My plan," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], "just surrender unto Me fully, then I shall take care of you so that you will not suffer." That is our position. If we fully depend on Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then He will guide us how to make progress back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: As far as defining love, what is love-people speak of love-he says, "If someone asks what is love, Paul answers, 'It is the fulfillment of the law.' Love is a matter of conscience, and hence it is not a matter of impulse and inclination, nor is it a matter of emotion, nor a matter for intellectual calculation. There is only one kind of love." And he says that is spiritual love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Love in the material world is impossible. In the material world everyone is interested for his own sense gratification. The love between man and woman, young boy and young girl, that is not love, that is lust, because both the parties are interested in sense gratification. But that is not love. Love means the parties, they will not think of his own sense gratification but the sense gratification of the beloved. That is pure love. That is not possible in the material world, but we see the example of love in the picture of Vṛndāvana. In the Vṛndāvana village, everyone-man, animals and fruits, flowers, water, everything-they are only for loving Kṛṣṇa. They do not want any return from Kṛṣṇa. That is real love, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. If one loves God with some motive, that is material love. Pure love is simply to satisfy the desires of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore in the material world the love, word "love," is misused. The propensity of lusty desires is going on as love. Real love is only with God-individually, collectively, anyway. And that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the supreme object of love, either by adoration or by serving or making friendship with Him, or loving Him as child, or loving Him as beloved-there are five different relationships: śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, mādhurya-that is real love.

Hayagrīva: And he says, "Ultimately, love of God is the decisive thing. From it stems love to the neighbor. If you love God above else, then you also love your neighbor, and in your neighbor every man. To help another man to love God is to love the other man. To be helped by another man to love God is to be loved."

Prabhupāda: That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are learning how to love God, and we are teaching the same principle to the whole world, without any discrimination, that "God is one." Not that there are different Gods of different faiths. God cannot be two. Eko brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. God is one. There cannot be any competitor. His name is Asamaurdhva; nobody is equal to Him, nobody is greater than Him. Therefore God is great. Nobody is equal. So in any form of religion, if love of God is instructed, that is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion. The test is how the followers have learned to love God. And now God being the center of love and everything being God's expansion, so a lover of God is lover of everyone. He does not discriminate that "Only man should be loved, and man should be given service." No. He is interested with all living entities, never mind in which form he is existing. So he is interested in…, lover of God loves everyone, and the love reaches everyone. The example is given in this connection. Just to water the root of the tree means to expand nourishment for all other parts of the tree, namely the trunk, branches, leaves, twigs, everything. Or to supply food in the stomach means satisfying the necessities of all parts of the body. This is the fact. God being everything, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4], as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, nothing can exist without God, and everything is expansion. Another word is there in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. It is said that the fire remaining in one place distributes its heat and light. Eka-sthāne sthitasyāgner jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā. The fire can distribute its heat and light although localized in a place. Similarly God, He is in His own abode, but by His energy He is present everywhere. Sarva-vyāpī, all-pervading. The all-pervading feature of God means everything is manifestation of His energy. Nothing can exist without God. But it does not mean everything is God. Everything is resting on His energy, but not everything God. In spite of expanding, God, by His different potencies, He keeps His personality. That is God.

Hayagrīva: Concerning individuality, Kierkegaard writes, "God is the origin and wellspring of all individuality. To have individuality is to believe in the individuality of everyone else, for the individuality in not mine. It is the gift of God through which He permits me to be, and through which He permits everyone to be."

Prabhupāda: That's the fact. He explains…, this fact is explained in the Vedic literature, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), Kaṭha Upaniṣad, that He is also living being and we are also living being. So He is also eternal; we are also eternal. So qualitatively we are one, but quantitatively we are different, because eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān: that one, singular number, eternal living being, Kṛṣṇa, or God, He is maintaining everyone. So that is the difference. The one living being, the Supreme Living Being, the great living being, is maintaining other living beings who are part and parcel of the Supreme. So both of us, we are the living beings, individual, eternal, but God is Supreme; we are subordinate. That is difference. So our natural position should be to love God, being part and parcel of God.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the…

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Wind it in the morning.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the purpose of prayer, he writes, "The true relation in prayer is not when God hears what is prayed for, but when the person praying continues to pray until he is the one who hears what God wills."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's very nice. He becomes qualified to understand God and to talk with God, to take direction of God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ

bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ

yena mām upayānti (te)

[Bg. 10.10]

Our ultimate goal is to give up this material world and go back to home, back to Godhead. So this being ultimate goal of life, if we offer prayer to the Supreme Lord… Not only prayer. Prayer is one of the service. This is also nine. There are different, nine kinds of service:

śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ

smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam

arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ

sakhyam ātma-nivedanam

[SB 7.5.23]

Vandanam. Prayer means vandanam. So this is also service. Either you take all the nine different items, or you take some of them, or at least one of them, then you will make progress in spiritual life. So some of them offer prayers, just like Christians, Muhammadans, they offer prayer. So it is as good as the Hindus give service in the temple, decorates the Deity, cleanses the temple and offers food. In this way they are engaged. This is called arcanam. Arcanam is also devotional service as well as offering prayer. So by this devotional service one makes progress in spiritual life, and when he is sincere in his service, then God is within him, He takes charge of him and gives him instruction how quickly and swiftly he can approach God. So this is fact. Our… He is not hankering after our service. He is complete in Himself. He doesn't require anyone's service. But if we offer service to Him, then we become purified, and… [break] …complete purification. We can talk with God, we can see God, we can take His instruction, as Arjuna is talking with God, personally taking His instruction and acting according to His instruction.

Hayagrīva: Kierkegaard felt that God's will… He says, "There is a God. His will is made known to me in holy scripture and in my conscience."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: God intervenes in the world through the individual acting according to scripture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These is a word, sādhu śāstra guru vākya cittete koriyā aikya. We can approach God by understanding a saintly person, by studying the Vedic scriptures, and explained directly by the bona fide spiritual master. So sādhu means saintly person, and śāstra means scriptures, and guru means spiritual master-and that they should be corroborated. A sādhu is he who talks in terms of scripture. Similarly, guru is he who talks in terms of scripture. Guru cannot manufacture words which is not in the scriptures. And that is not scripture which does not tally with the words of guru and sādhu. So these three items should be corroborated, and then we can understand who is guru, who is sādhu, and who is, what is scripture. Then we take instruction from them, and we can perfectly make progress towards understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Hayagrīva: He says, "The only thing which enters Him, God, who is all-majestic, is obedience."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "It is so easy to see that one to whom everything is equally important and equally insignificant can only be interested in one thing: obedience."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted, and Kṛṣṇa, or God, demands that. Full obedience. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the qualification. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. So original obedience is to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, similarly obedience to the spiritual master is representative of God. So anyone who carries out the order of God, he can become bona fide guru, because he is not manufacturing anything. He is simply presenting what God is speaking, or the śāstra is speaking. God, when He comes as incarnation, He does not speak anything which is not in the scripture. That, just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa gives reference to the Brahma-sūtra, Vedānta-sūtra. He is God. Whatever He is speaking, that is final, that's, that's a fact. Still, He is giving honor to the Vedānta-sūtra. Brahma-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ [Bg. 13.5]. He is giving reference to the Brahma-sūtra because spiritual knowledge is asserted there with logic and philosophy. So we cannot accept anyone as incarnation of God if He speaks nonsense, not corroborating with the standard scripture.

Hayagrīva: Concerning worship, he writes, "The only adequate way to express the sense of God's majesty is to worship Him, to renounce everything as an act of worship offered to God, and so not because He needs to use you as an instrument but to renounce everything yourself as the most insignificant suprafluity, an article of luxury. That means to worship." That is, worship is renunciation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Worship is the beginning, begins with renunciation, or the renouncing any motive. Ahaituky apratihatā. Our only business is to love God. That is first-class religious system which teaches the followers to love God without any motive. Ahaituky apratihatā. Such kind of worship will not be checked by any material condition. In any condition of life one can love God. God will help. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. That is pure worship and pure love for God. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the last point we're making on Kierkegaard. It's concerning God's personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "God is certainly personal, but whether He wishes to be so in relation to the individual depends on whether it pleases God."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "It is the grace of God that He wishes to be personal in relation to you. If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively, or impersonally, towards you."

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's right. That is very good. Impersonal conception of God is a troublesome business. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: kleśaḥ adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Find out this verse.

Hari-śauri:

kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām

avyaktāsakta-cetasām

avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ

dehavadbhir avāpyate

[Bg. 12.5]

"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Hari-śauri: The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogīs, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogīs. Now, here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed. The process of jñāna-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore, the bhakti-yogī accepts the Deity of Kṛṣṇa as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguṇa and nirguṇa-of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguṇa worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood, or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord.

A crude example may be given here. We may find some mailboxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box, or an imitation, which we may find somewhere, which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent and all-powerful; therefore, by His incarnation as arca-vigraha, He can accept the services of the devotee, just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life.

So, for a devotee, there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization, the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upaniṣads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feelings, and they have to realize all these processes. This is not very easy for a common man. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service, simply by the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, simply by offering regulative obeisances unto the Deity, simply by hearing the glories of the Lord, and simply by eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. There is no doubt that the impersonalists are unnecessarily taking a troublesome path with the risk of not realizing the Absolute Truth at the ultimate end. But the personalist, without any risk, trouble, or difficulty, approaches the Supreme Personality directly. A similar passage appears in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is stated there that if one has to ultimately surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead (This surrendering process is called bhakti.), but instead takes the trouble to understand what is Brahman and what is not Brahman and spends his whole life in that way, the result is simply troublesome. Therefore it is advised here that one should not take up this troublesome path of self-realization because there is uncertainty in the ultimate result.

A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of jñāna-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independant, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus this process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: He says, "If you throw away His grace, He punishes you by behaving objectively toward you, and in that sense one may say that the world has not got a personal God in spite of all the proofs. But while dons and parsons," that is priests, "drivel on," talk on, "about the millions of truths about God's personality, the truth is that there are no longer the men living who could bear the pressure and weight of having a personal God." Because he feels that a personal God would make demands on man, and so therefore men reject the idea of a personal God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Personal God means He is demanding, as Kṛṣṇa is demanding, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me, or offer Me worship, offer Me obeisances, and become My devotee. And give up all other engagement. Simply be engaged in My service." This is the demand of God, and if we carry out His demand, then we are perfect. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If you simply carry out the orders of God then you become qualified, fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. This is clearly stated. Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body, but a devotee, a pure devotee, after giving up this body, he doesn't accept another material body, but in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: That's the end of Kierkegaard. (end)

SARTRE.HAY

Jean-Paul Sartre

Hayagrīva: And this is a very short section on Jean-Paul Sartre. The…

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Hayagrīva: The… He is a contemporary French philosopher.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: Probably the most famous of the French philosophers. Perhaps the most well known philosopher in this century. He calls himself an existentialist. He calls himself an atheistic existentialist in that he believes existence precedes essence. That the essence of man… According to creation by design, God has the essence of man in His mind, and He creates man just as a paper cutter creates some kind of a figure. Sartre doesn't believe this. He says, "Atheistic existentialism, which I represent, is more coherent. It states that if God does not exist, there is at least one being in whom existence precedes essence, a being who exists before he can be defined by any concept, and that this being is man, or human reality." So that for Sartre a human reality is all in all.

Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the human reality comes? There are no realities also, so why he is stressing on human realities?

Hayagrīva: There again, he would emphasize accident-he uses the word-that man is thrown into the world, or cast into the world.

Prabhupāda: Thrown by whom? "Thrown into the world," as soon you say like that, then the next question will be, "Thrown by whom?"

Devotee: They don't like that question.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hayagrīva: He…

Devotee: They do not like that question.

Hayagrīva: Well, he says, "Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing. There you've got our point of view."

Prabhupāda: No, if you exist as others exist, then what is the fault there? God also exists. He exists. Others also existing. So if there is God, what is the fault if He exists? Why he is denying the existence of God? Let them all exist.

Hayagrīva: First of all, he feels that God does not exist.

Prabhupāda: Why? If you exist, if others exist, why God will not exist?

Hayagrīva: That is his position as an atheist.

Prabhupāda: No, atheist, that is there should be reasonable proposal. If you speak something nonsense, that "I exist," why he, does he bring the word God, if God does not exist? God is there, but He denies the existence. That is atheism. Otherwise, why bringing the word God? If God does not exist, why he is bringing the word God?

Hayagrīva: He wants, he's trying to…

Prabhupāda: That means God is there. He wants his existence; he does not want God to exist. That is his proposal.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Emphasis is on man.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nonsense. If you believe in your existence, you should believe in others' existence also. Actually there is. Human being is not only existing, but there are so many, 8,400,000 different forms of living being. They are existing. So God is also one of them. According to Vedic understanding of God, that God is also one of the living being, but He is the chief, supreme living being. That is the difference. So, in the ordinary understanding a man is better than the animal, and another intelligent man is better than the nonintelligent man. So similarly, you go on with comparative study, one after another, when you come to the final living being, He is the Supreme. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] there is no more superior living being, and that is God. That we have got practical experience. You may be more intelligent than me, he may be more intelligent than you, go on, go on searching. So when you find somebody that He is the final intelligent, that is God. So what is the difficulty to understand? Why God shall not exist? If one person better intelligent than me he can exist, so why a person who exceeds all others in intelligence, He cannot exist? So there is no meaning of atheism. That is ignorance.

Hayagrīva: By…, by setting aside or denying the existence of God, he is able to write this: "Thus there is no human…"

Prabhupāda: That, that kind of understanding, denying the existence, that is foolishness. How he can? We have given the definition, that practical field you will find one man is more intelligent than the other man, or one animal is better intelligent than other animal. That is positive, comparative, superiority, divisions. So naturally we can think of, at least, that we approach this way to a certain personality, He is the final intelligent. No more exceeds in the intelligence than Him, and no more equal intelligence. That is God. There is possibility of such person's existence. How he can deny it?

Hayagrīva: But if God exists, then…

Prabhupāda: God exists, must exist!

Hayagrīva: …then He must be the center.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: Then He must be the center.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He has to accept that God exists. He cannot deny it, because practically we see. You may be intelligent, more intelligent than me, and he may be more intelligent you. So go on, go on, and find out, if you have got power, that we come to a person there is no more more intelligent than Him, as God defines: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. And Kṛṣṇa, "Above Me there is no more intelligent person." There is not. So you cannot deny this existence, a superpowerful, superintelligent person, because we practically see. Not that everyone is on the equal level. That is not the case. He is a philosopher, another philosopher more intelligent than him, another philosopher more intelligent. So you go on searching. Anyway, either in richness or in intelligence or in power, strength, beauty, there is comparative superlative degrees. So God means the superlative degree in everything. How he can deny this existence? That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: According to him he says, "The first principle of existentialism is that man is nothing else but what he makes of himself, since there is no God to conceive of human nature."

Prabhupāda: When, if he can see that man exists in his own idea, so why not a superman who exists in his own idea, or his own capacity, completely independent of anyone? Why, how he can deny that? That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: He feels that… He puts a great deal of emphasis on man's responsibility, of his existence on himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: That since he's not responsible to God, he's responsible for himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Or to himself.

Prabhupāda: What does he mean, "responsible"? Responsible, if somebody gives you duties, and if you feel responsible to discharge that duty, then you are responsible. But there is no duty, nobody is to see above you, then where is your responsibility?

Hayagrīva: Well, he feels that all values… If there is no God, all values disappear. There are no values, there's no criteria.

Prabhupāda: So his value also disappear.

Hayagrīva: So from this he concludes that without God, everything is possible. He says, "Indeed, everything is permissible if God does not exist. If God did not exist, everything would be possible. That is the very starting point of existentialism."

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what, what is the meaning of God. We have several times repeated this. God is the Supreme, Supreme Being. So we have defined in so many ways. Another thing that God is the Supreme, Supreme means He is supreme father. The Supreme everything means He is supreme father also. The conception of father is there. So as we are standing, we are talking with that gentleman priest, that mother nature, nature is giving, producing so many living entities. So she is supposed to be the mother. And as soon as we accept mother, there must be father. Mother cannot, alone cannot give birth to any offspring, so there must be the conception of father. And that is, practically we are seeing that mother nature… We say "mother nature" because she gives birth to so many forms of life, and if we accept mother, then you must to accept father, and that God is supreme father. How he can deny it? Father's duty is to maintain the children. So all living beings are being maintained, so there must be father. How he can deny that?

Hayagrīva: How, how, well, he does. He says, his very words, he says, "Since we have discarded God the father, there has to be someone to invent values. Before you become alive, life is nothing. It's up to you to give it a meaning, and value is nothing else but the meaning that you choose."

Prabhupāda: I will have to give meaning of my life? So what is that idea?

Hayagrīva: You must give meaning to your own life. Since, since there is no God to give life meaning, man must invent his own meaning.

Prabhupāda: Everyone will invent his meaning.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then where, where there will be symmetry?

Hayagrīva: Si…, similitude.

Prabhupāda: No, symmetry.

Devotee: Symmetry.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How the people will live peacefully in the society? I will give my own idea, you will give your own idea, he will give his own idea, then where there is collaboration? No, there is no possibility. Then it is chaotic condition. Then why do you want government? You live without government. You don't require government.

Hayagrīva: Lately he's turned into a Marxist.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is government. In the Marxist, Communist country, there is government, so how you can avoid the government and leadership? That is not possible. Then the society is in chaotic condition.

Hayagrīva: He believes that each man is responsible for other men, but that he believes…, he also believes that each man has the freedom to work out his own destiny, so to speak.

Prabhupāda: Say, suppose if I want to do with you some, something good, and you are free. So if you don't accept me, then I don't accept that, that is, means chaotic. How you are responsible for me? If I don't obey, so how you can become responsible for me? So he says that a man should be responsible for other men. But if he does not obey you, where is the responsibility? So crazy fellow that.

Hayagrīva: It appears to be contradictory.

Prabhupāda: Everything is contradictory. That must be contradictory. Unless there is standard idea, standard thing, there must be contradiction.

Hayagrīva: This is the last point. He says, "To be man…"

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say first of all God.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is Supreme Person, and we should be all obedient servant to Him. Then the society will be in order. That, that is responsibility. God gives us some duty, and if we carry that, that is our responsibility, and that makes the whole society perfect. That should… In the beginning if we reject God, so then it is chaotic. So religion means to avoid this chaotic condition, and in order, fulfilling the responsibility given by God, we make progress, and finally we live with God personally. That is our eternal right.

Hayagrīva: His final point is that…, is, "To be man means to reach toward being God, or, if you prefer, man fundamentally is the desire to be God."

Prabhupāda: So he, at last he accept there is God. (laughter) Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? Yes, he is trying to deny God when there is God. Unless there is God, where is the question of accepting or denying? He is denying in the other way; that means there is God.

Devotee: As soon as he mentions God he's proved there is God.

Prabhupāda: No, as soon as he denies God, there is God.

Devotee: Or denies, because he has admitted God…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: …one way or another.

Hayagrīva: He says that he prefers to set the question aside, but at the same time…

Prabhupāda: That is the main question. That is the main question, that God has created everything. He has created you, He has created your mind, intelligence, your body, your existential circumstances-everything He has created. So how you can deny God? In the beginning, that Bible says, "In the beginning there was God." Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the Vedānta also it is, aham evāsam evāgre. That God says that "I existed in the beginning." Here the creation is temporary, existence is temporary, and annihilation is also temporary. This is material nature. And we can understand it very easily, that this body, your body, my body is created at a certain date, it will continue to a certain date, and it will be finished. This is material understanding. Anything you will take, it has a beginning, it has a duration of period to exist, then finished. So if you take broader way, the whole cosmic manifestation, it has a beginning and it has an end and it has a duration of period to exist. But before this creation, who was there? That is God. Otherwise how the creation is possible if God is not there before the creation?

Hayagrīva: Well, new philosophy means to resolve this question. You can't possibly resolve it by setting it aside, if it's the major question. It's been the major question of all philosophers we studied. So how can you say let us just set it aside?

Prabhupāda: No. What the philosophers, the… Not all philosophers they denied the existence, but from our practical study we can see that take personal existence, that before I got this body, there was my father and mother. So how can I deny this fact? This whole cosmic manifestation is exactly like the manifestation of my body. Everything you take, there is practical experience. So far you take this spectacle, it is created by some spectacle…, spectacle manufacturer, and it will exist for some time, then it will annihilate. Similarly, the whole creation, annihilation. There is another crude example, just like earthen pot is made from the clay, earth. It is, it gets a shape, and it continues to exist for a certain time, and then it is broken. So when it is broken, again it is clay. So in the beginning the clay was there, in the middle there is a form, and at the end again clay. So clay is the original. Similarly, God is everything original. That is explained by God in the Bhagavad-gītā: ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. And the Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is clear understanding where your existence comes from. You cannot say all of a sudden you dropped from the sky. You have your father and mother, and from them you have appeared. How you can say that "There was nobody else before my creation, and there will be nobody else after my annihilation"? That is foolishness. How you can do it? So you have to accept that before your manifestation there was your father and mother. So this is right philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God. So father gives the seed, and mother begets so many children. So it is a big family. Father is God and material nature is the mother, and then we, as children, we are taken care of by the father and mother, so our duty is to remain peacefully at the cost of the father and mother and become obedient to the father and mother. This is natural. Beyond this, all speculation. That will not give us real peace and prosperity. We must, have to accept. God is there, the nature is there, and we are also there, a big family. Let us live peacefully according to the order of the father. That is natural.

Rāmeśvara: He is describing responsibility to the family without considering the father.

Prabhupāda: Family… He is also one of the member of the family, who created the family. How he, can you disobey the father?

Hayagrīva: Well, he says, "First of all man exists, turns up, appears on the scene."

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the man exists? That is his foolishness.

Hayagrīva: He just says he appears on the scene.

Rāmeśvara: He is not concerned.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rāmeśvara: He is not concerned.

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He does not know that he appears on account of father and mother. How he can deny this? That is his foolishness. How can this man say, "I appeared all of a sudden. I dropped from the sky." It is a crazy fellow. How we can give time to hear it? That's not possible. You appeared on account of your father and mother. How can you deny it? That is not possible. Is it possible to deny it?

Hayagrīva: Not intelligently.

Prabhupāda: That means a rascal. A rascal can say that "I appeared without father and mother." That's not possible. So we say that everyone appears, not only human being. All animals, all plants, trees, everywhere-there are 8,400,000 species of life-they have appeared from these material elements. Either from the water… The fishes is appearing in the water, and the plants and trees, they are appearing on the land, and then insects, birds and everything. Everything is appearing. So material nature is the mother. That is accepted. So as soon as you accept mother there must be father. Where you get this conception that we are appearing without father and mother? How it, how it is possible?

Rāmeśvara: He just wants to put the question aside.

Prabhupāda: Why? This is the primary question, wherefrom you appeared.

Rāmeśvara: Christians also, and the Jew, the Western religions, they say there is a God, but He has put us here in this world. So He is in His heaven, and we are here on earth, and our business now is to become happy. They also put the question aside. (end)

FREUD.HAY

Sigmund Freud

Hayagrīva: …and on Sigmund Freud, you discussed with Śyāmasundara Prabhu the sexual aspects, but not the theological aspects. Freud wrote two basic books on religion, Future of an Illusion, and there was a great deal in Leonardo da Vinci, A Study in Psycho-sexuality. He writes, "Psychoanalysis, which has taught us the intimate connection between the father complex and belief in God, has shown us that the personal God is psychologically nothing but an exalted father. Youthful persons lose their religious belief as soon as the authority of the father breaks down." So he sees God as basically a father complex arising out of the need of help of the little child.

Prabhupāda: That little child, how he can give up the idea of father? And how Mr. Freud can give up the idea? Was he not born by a father?

Hayagrīva: He feels that…

Prabhupāda: He dropped from the sky? Huh? Did, did he?

Hayagrīva: He feels that this is childish.

Prabhupāda: That childish, what is that childish? He had no father?

Hayagrīva: He had a father, but he believed in ultimate emancipation.

Prabhupāda: No, no, ultimate we shall go later on. First of all, he has to think whether he had his father or not. Or his father's father was not there, and go on searching out. So without father, how can one exist or one can come into being? So that if he cannot understand this simple philosophy, what kind of philosopher he is? He had his father. His father had his father. So this is fact. Even though he might not have seen his dead grandfather, but he was there. That is a fact. So if you go on searching, father's father's father, where you will come there is no father? Which…, which is that point when you can say, "Now here there is no father"? And if you actually come to that point that "Here is a person of whom there is no father," that is God.

Hayagrīva: He says, "After all, is not the destiny of childishness to be overcome? Man cannot remain a child forever."

Prabhupāda: No. What is his definition of childish? Whether he is childish, or he is condemning others?

Hayagrīva: One who needs…

Prabhupāda: Unless you can deny that you have born, you are born without father, then you are a child. You do not have conception how you are in existence without father. What is this argument? That everything must be argued, a sane man. So this is simple logic I am putting forward. Who can refute it, that you have father, your father had father, his father had father, father's father's, all? This is a disciplic succession of fathers. How can you deny the father? Therefore the ultimate father, the supreme father, He is also father but He is supreme father. That is the difference. So father conception of God is very practical, and it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. So how he can defy it if he is a sane man? Who can defy it? Is there any person to defy it?

Hayagrīva: Well, he says, "Man's helplessness remains, and with it his father-longing and the gods."

Prabhupāda: Hopelessness or no hopelessness…

Hayagrīva: Helplessness.

Prabhupāda: Ah. But suppose he is philosophizing. So how he can avoid the conception of father? That is insanity. This is very simple thing. Father's father's, his father, his father… When you go to the supreme father, that is God.

Hayagrīva: Well, he felt that the idea of God arose out of man's helplessness, and the gods…

Prabhupāda: That hopelessness is already there, that's a fact. That is the same logic, that we are finding difficulties in this materialistic way of life. Threefold miseries-miserable condition of this body, this mind, miseries offered by other living entities, and the natural disturbances. So how can you say there is very smooth life? That is not possible. And above these, there is old age, birth, death. So hopelessness is already there. But if one is very rascal, he is hoping against hope and planning that "We shall overcome all these difficulties by this plan, that plan, that plan." That, that is not possible. The nature is so strong, whatever plan you imagine, that will smash into pieces by simply kicking over your face. So you are hopeless but you are so shameless, inspite of becoming hopeless in every step, you are hoping against hope to make adjustment with these material things. You are so rascal and foolish. Hopelessness is always there in every step, and still, out of insanity, you are trying to adjust with another hopeless plan.

Hayagrīva: He felt that the father God is an infantile wish. He says, "The whole thing is so patently infantile, so incongruous with reality, that one whose attitudes…"

Prabhupāda: So what is his reality? Infantile conception of God, but what he is, except the child? Huh? He is also planning something. That is also childish. So how he becomes more than a child? He cannot give us any definite program by which everyone will be hopeful.

Hayagrīva: Well, he felt psychoanalysis was the answer.

Prabhupāda: That is jugglery of word. Psychoanalysis, nobody will, can understand, a common man. Psychoanalysis, if there is meaning, that there is supreme controller, that is psychoanalysis. We see everywhere controller, so it is natural. This is psychoanalysis, that there is a supreme controller. That is natural. Why defying this fact?

Hayagrīva: He says, "If one attempts to assign religion its place in man's evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition as a parallel to the neuroses which the civilized individual must pass through on his way from childhood to maturity."

Prabhupāda: Evidently he is frustrated, without any knowledge of religion. He had no idea. He has seen that so many sentimental religious system, and he has concluded like that. But first of all let him understand what is religion. Religion cannot come into existence without understanding the idea of God. Religion without God cannot be religion. According to Vedic system, religion means the order given by God. But if one has no conception of God, that there is no question of religion. So Godless religion is, certainly, it is sentiment. That is not religion. So he has studied something which is not religion; therefore he has got so many doubts about religion. Real religion is that there is God, that is a fact, and whatever orders the God gives, that is religion. So he does not know what is God. How he will know what order He is giving? So for him everything is not religion.

Hayagrīva: It's often been said of Freud that he tried to repress within himself religious feelings that were definitely there. He says, "I cannot…" In a letter he wrote, "I cannot rid myself of certain sceptic materialistic prejudices, and I would carry them over into the research of the occult." He considered religion the occult.

Prabhupāda: Occult, what is that?

Hayagrīva: Occult, something obscure. The…

Prabhupāda: It is not obscure. It is, everything is obscure to the foolish person. So he is a foolish person. He does not know what is God. How he will know what is religion? Our definition of religion is "the order given by God." But if I do not know what is God, then how can I take His order? That is the defect.

Hayagrīva: In the same letter he writes, "I am entirely incapable of considering the survival of the personality after death, even as a mere scientific possibility. I think therefore, it is better if I continue confining myself to psychoanalysis."

Prabhupāda: What is that psy…? He is deficient in psychoanalysis also, because he is practically seeing in his daily life that a child is growing to become a boy, a boy is growing to a young man, but the body is changing and the soul is there. So if he has no sense to understand this, what kind of psychoanalysis he is? The body of the child is finished, then he accepts another body, boy. So how you can deny it? You say it has grown. I say that it is finished. Then what is the difference? Actually the child's body is not there. So you can show…, speak in a different language, but the, when the child's body is finished, there is the boy's body. When the boy's body is finished, the young man's body. So body is changing, but still my child, my son, John, I still call him John, although he has changed his body, because I know my son, the soul John, whom I call John, he is there. So the soul is there; the body is changing, we are experiencing every day. So what kind of psychoanalyst he is, that he cannot understand this simple truth? And still he says, "I cannot believe in the eternity of the soul." That how poor thoughts he is maintaining, and he is proclaiming himself a philosopher. What kind of philosopher he is?

Hayagrīva: He wrote a book called Beyond the Pleasure Principle, and in it he wrote, "The goal of all life is death." For him death is the cessation…

Prabhupāda: But why…

Hayagrīva: …of suffering.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means you, why you are afraid of death? Why go to the medical man? Huh? When you are diseased you are afraid of dying. Why go to the medical man? If death is ultimate happiness, then why you are trying to avoid death? What is the psychoanalysis? [break]

Hayagrīva: Now this theory… Freud's principal disciple was the famous psychologist Carl Jung. They had an argument, and Freud once fainted, and when he came to, his words were, Freud's words were, "How sweet it must be to die." And in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, he writes, "The most universal endeavor of all living substance, namely, to return to the quiescence of the inorganic world. We have all experienced how the greatest pleasure attainable by us, that of the sexual act, is associated with the momentary extinction of a highly intensified excitation. Thus the pleasure principle, the sex act itself, is preliminary to the most highly desired nirvāṇa, the extinction of desires, and ultimately the extinction of the life functions themselves. Thus the pleasure principle seems actually to serve the death instincts."

Prabhupāda: So where is the pleasure when he is dead? What is that pleasure?

Hayagrīva: Well there is pleasure, and then when pleasure is cultivated, culminated…

Prabhupāda: That pleasure is in the stone. So why you are…

Hayagrīva: That's inorganic. He spoke of the return, the quiescence of the inorganic world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So…

Hayagrīva: To become like…

Prabhupāda: Why you are philosophizing? You just sui…, make suicide and become a stonelike death. That why you are philosophizing, taking so much pain? Better you suicide, commit suicide, and immediately become silent, then that's happiness. (laughter) Why you are, rascal, bothering yourself and headaching others? The best thing is that you commit suicide and become dead, and all happiness is there. As some rascal do that, that by committing suicide he will solve all problem. So this is easy process, commit suicide, and why you are writing so many books? If ultimate happiness is to become dead, do that immediately.

Hayagrīva: But isn't… Materialistic pleasure, he says, serves the death instinct, but doesn't materialistic pleasure just bring out more craving for pleasure?

Prabhupāda: He is making death as the ultimate pleasure. Is it not?

Hayagrīva: Death as the ultimate goal of pleasure.

Prabhupāda: That's all, then commit it immediately. Why you are writing so many book? Commit suicide, that everyone can do that.

Hayagrīva: After, after having sex, most people simply go to sleep, and he felt that this was the, sort of the ultimate extinction.

Prabhupāda: That means Freud is a most imperfect person. He is taking sex as very important thing, which the dog enjoys. As a dog's life and a hog's life, the hog has got very good facility. The monkey has got very good facility for sex life, and he is thinking this is ultimate goal, and then sleep. So that is going on. So if sex life is so big thing, the hogs, they have got good facility. The pigeons, they have got very good facility. I think every hour they have four times sex life, these pigeons. So if that is, then you become a pigeon. You pray to God that "Make me a pigeon, make me a hog." Why you are becoming philosopher? Now our philosophy is different-not to become a pig. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. The life simply for sense gratification, and for that purpose working so hard, but that is the business of the pig. That is not the business of the human being. Human being is tapasya. Tapasya means stop sex life. That is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. So our philosophy is different from his philosophy. And actually we are suffering. The pig has got good facilities for sex. Does it mean that is ideal life, eating stool and having sex without discrimination? They have no discrimination, whether mother or sister or daughter. That is hog life. So if sex life is final pleasure, then hog is in the greatest pleasure. He has no social obligation. He has no discrimination. But our philosophy says "Don't become a hog, become a sane man." There, there, there is a difference between his philosophy and our philosophy.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Everything in our life is an accident, from our very origin…"

Prabhupāda: Just see how foolishness he is.

Hayagrīva: "…through the meeting of the spermatozoa and ovum, an accident, which nevertheless participates in the lawfulness and fatalities of nature, lacking only the connection to our wishes and illusions."

Prabhupāda: You are so foolish that you cannot avoid even accident. You are subjected to so many accidents. So what you will do by your philosophy? If accident is so prominent, (laughter) so how you will make adjustment with your philosophy? Stop talking philosophy, accept accidents and suffer, that's all.

Hayagrīva: Concerning sex, Freud explored the realm of infantile sexuality and found a definite sexual nature in the earlier stages of childhood. He concluded that these sexual activities in childhood were normal phenomena, and finally concluded with his famous dictum, "In a normal sex life, no neurosis is possible."

Prabhupāda: That is also his foolishness, because a child can be trained up to become a brahmacārī so that he will have no inclination for sex. It depends on the child's training. The unscrupulous father and mother, they enjoy sex life before the child, and they imitate. I have seen it. I have seen it in Agra. There are two small children. In life, what do they know? The female child laid down, and the man child, just like they have seen father and mother-sex. He does not know anything, but he is imitating. So imitating, imitating, the sex life is there, it becomes prominent. Similarly, you train the children not to have any sense of sex life, he will become brahmacārī. So he has not studied. He has seen some abominable family's children. So they learn these things. Whatever you teach, they imitate. So if you keep the children aloof from this sex-life society, he will remain a brahmacārī. There is many instances. That is the Vedic civilization. The children are immediately, as soon as four, five years old, he is sent to the gurukula, and under the discipline he forgets sex life, practically. But still if he has little, that is natural when he is young man, so a guru sees that still tendency for sex life, he is allowed, "Go on, marry and become a gṛhastha." Otherwise, if he is perfectly controlled over sex life, he becomes a sannyāsī, vānaprastha, the whole life. Just like my Guru Mahārāja, he was never married. So he could…, that can be trained. Why he is saying the child is? Child can be trained. Even without sex he can live throughout whole life without any disturbance. That can be trained up. It is a question of education.

Hayagrīva: He felt that sexual repression would be harmful, but sexual sublimation can often be beneficial. Sublimation, he says…

Prabhupāda: What is that sublimation? More sex? (indistinct) sex?

Hayagrīva: Sublimation is, well let me read, "The excessive excitations from individual sexual sources are discharged and utilized in other spheres, so that no small enhancement of mental capacity results from a predisposition which is dangerous as such." In other words, he didn't believe that…, in total sexual freedom as it's conceived today, but that a man would be better, instead of trying to totally deny the sex drive, to try to redirect it, oh, perhaps in artistic activity or in, in study, or in some other activity. Not to deny it.

Prabhupāda: That means, in one word, to divert his attention.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is brahmacārī. That is recommended in the Vedic culture, that from the very beginning of his life, divert his attention for spiritual activities, he, he will forget about sex life. That is the experience. Not only a trained-up child, even a grown-up person, if he takes Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, he also forgets sex life. So that is possible by training, one can forget sex life. That, that is experience of Yamunacārya. He expressing, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde. He says that "Since my, my mind and attention has been diverted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness activities, as soon as I thing of sex life, I spite on it." That is possible. It is simply question of training. And if one indulges in sex life without any restriction, the physical problem is there. He will be impotent. He will not be able to, even though he has got sex organs, he will not be able to use it. That is nature's way of punishing. There are so many impotent person. So it is a question of training. So the Vedic training is to train the small child, from the very beginning of his life, how to avoid sex life. That cannot be artificially done, but there is a process of training. By accepting that training one can remain without sex life throughout the whole life. That is possible.

Hayagrīva: Well he felt it couldn't be stamped out. If it, if you try to stamp out the sex drive, it will manifest itself in neuroses, in undesirable…

Prabhupāda: No, that is…, he is not… That is the defect. He does not know perfectly anything, and he is philosophizing. That is the defect. Not only in him-I find these all mental speculators, that is the defect. Everything is possible, but our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is different from his imagination. Our philosophy is that so long one has the sex inclination, he will have to accept a material body. And as soon as he accepts a material body, he becomes implicated in so many miserable condition of material existence. But there is another life, which is not material, that is spiritual. If one is trained up to accept that spiritual life, there will be no more botheration of this material existence. That he does not know, neither he can understand. But there is such thing. That can be found in the Vedic civilization, not this meat-eating civilization. It is not possible.

Hayagrīva: Concerning religion, he said, "Of the reality value of most of them, of most religions, we cannot judge. Just as they cannot be proved, neither can they be refuted."

Prabhupāda: First of all, he does not know what is religion. That is the defect in him. We say religion means the order given by God. Simple thing. But he has no conception of God. How he can get orders from God? Therefore how he can understand what is religion? He has got some ideas of fictitious religion, which is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitava, cheating. Cheating religion. That is not religion. Religion means, just like law. Law means the order given by the government. You cannot manufacture law at your home. That is not… Similarly, if somebody manufactures law at home and says that "I have manufactured one law. You take it," so who, what sane man will accept that law? "Sir, you keep your law in your pocket." Similarly, this so-called religious system, which is not given by God, that is just like outlaws. They are not religion. He has simply studied which is not religion. That is his defect. Real religion is the law given by God. So he has no conception of God, how he can understand what is religion? He has studied only pseudoreligion, cheating religion; therefore he is dissatisfied.

Hayagrīva: He said, "The riddles of the universe only reveal themselves slowly to our inquiry. To many questions, science can as yet give no answer, but scientific work is our only way to the knowledge of external reality. Science is no illusion, but it would be an illusion to suppose that we could get anywhere else what it could not give us." In other words, religion is an illusion, but the answer lies in…, in science, that science will eventually answer all of these questions that religion attempts to answer through…

Prabhupāda: No. The science or philosopher, when they are imperfect in their knowledge, they, whatever they give, that is unscientific and without any basic principle of philosophy. So the, first of all we have to learn what is the objective of knowledge, what we are searching, knowledge. The knowledge that… Vedānta. Vedānta, Veda means knowledge and anta means ultimate. Unless you come to the ultimate point of knowledge, your knowledge is imperfect, insufficient. So the ultimate knowledge is God. So if these people, they cannot define any God, they cannot believe in God, that means they have not reached to the ultimate point of knowledge. God is a fact, but we do not have any clear idea what is that God. That means our knowledge has not reached up to the point of clear understanding of God. So unless one is able to reach that point, everything, what he calls knowledge, is imperfect. God is there, that's a fact, and knowledge means to go to that point. If one has not reached to that point, his knowledge is imperfect. So how he can give us something conclusively if he has imperfect knowledge? Let him be philosopher or scientist; if he has got imperfect knowledge, what is the value of his science, scientific knowledge and that? His knowledge is imperfect. So our, our policy is we don't accept knowledge from an imperfect person. We have received knowledge from the perfect person. Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead, perfect, and anyone who follows Kṛṣṇa's knowledge, he is also perfect. So our policy is to accept knowledge from the perfect person, not from the speculators. Speculators are not in perfect knowledge; therefore whatever they say, they are all imperfect. Maybe to some extents it is perfect, but it is not perfect knowledge.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "As it is a delicate task to decide what God has Himself ordained and what derives rather from the authority of an all-powerful parliament or a supreme judicial decision, it would be an indubitable advantage to leave God out of the question altogether and to admit honestly the purely human origin of all cultural laws and instructions." In other words, man is the law-giver…

Prabhupāda: That, that means he has no clear conception of God, because God has to take power from some parliament. God does not take power from anyone. He is God. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataḥ ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1], that the Supreme, God, or Supreme Truth, Brahman, He knows everything. He knows everything in details. And wherefrom? Abhijñaḥ. He is, abhijñaḥ means completely in awareness. Then the question may be raised that "How He got this complete knowledge? From whom He received?" The answer is immediate, svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. That is God. If one has to take knowledge from Mr. Freud, then he is not God. Anyone, if you come to that person that He is independent, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport], naturally He is all-perfect. He hasn't got to become perfect by some process or from some authority. That is God. He is all-perfect automatically. That is God. So anyone who is trying to be perfect, he is not God. One who is… That, that, that is in the history, we find in the history of life of Kṛṣṇa. When He was three-months-old child He, He could kill big giant like Pūtanā. That is automatic. Either He is child or He is a young man or He is old man, the godly power is there. The nowadays these so-called yogis, they are becoming God by meditation, but the three-months-old child in the lap of His mother, how He became God? The God is God always. He hasn't got to learn it from anyone. That is His svarāṭ, independent. So these people have no conception of God; therefore they are simply speculating and misleading persons. God is not the subject matter of speculation. We, if we want to know God, then we must know it from God Himself or a person who knows Him. That is the direction in the Bhagavad-gītā:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

Tattva-darśinaḥ, one who has learned about God as fact, as you see eye to eye and you believe it. Similarly, one who has seen God eye to eye, you have to let…, get lessons of God from him. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is talking with God. So if you have to understand God, then understand how Arjuna has taken his instruction from God and what he's understood. So Arjuna says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam [Bg. 10.12]. So we have to take lesson from Arjuna not from Mr. Freud, who has no knowledge of God. That is the way.

Hayagrīva: Concerning early religious training, he writes, "So long as a man's early years are influenced by the religious thought inhibition, and by the lore one derived from it, as well as by the sexual one, we cannot really say what he," that is man, "is actually like." So he feels that early religious education actually warps a man's development, that you can't say what man can truly be like if you educate him to believe in a transcendental being.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. If a child is given lesson that there is a supreme being controlling the whole cosmic situation, what is the wrong there? He should learn it.

Hayagrīva: But Freud felt that this inhibited man's natural development, that you can't know what man is naturally like as long as you inculcate him with these religious ideas.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you send your son to a school for education?

Hayagrīva: Well he felt that…

Prabhupāda: Naturally…

Hayagrīva: Some education, there has to be education.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is also the most important education.

Hayagrīva: So therefore, they are following this line of thought now in the schools, because they've cut out religious education…

Prabhupāda: That, that this is the important education in human life-to learn about God. That is the only business, because in other lives, the animal life, cat's and dog's life, they cannot understand. But in the human form of life there is possibility; therefore that is the first education. The animals, they cannot think of God, but in the human society, why there are religions? Not in the animal society. To understand God, that is the civilized form of human civilization.

Hayagrīva: He agrees with Marx in his belief that religion is a form of narcotic. He says, "The believer…," that is in God…

Prabhupāda: Well first of all, these men do not know what is religion. That is the defeat. That is their defect, either Marx or Freud of so many so-called philosophers, they do not know what is religion. They have to learn what is religion. Without knowing what is religion, why they are talking of religion and God? They have no knowledge about.

Hayagrīva: He says, "The believer will not let his faith be taken from him, neither by argument nor by prohibitions, and even if it did succeed with some, it would be a cruel thing to do."

Prabhupāda: No. Anything, artificial teaching, that is cruelty. So that is being done by Mr. Freud also. Artificially he is stressing on sex and death and so on, so on, but that is not life. Real life is that to understand the simple truth. Just like…, who was protesting against father conception? That Mr. John, so and so?

Hari-śauri: Freud.

Hayagrīva: Freud.

Prabhupāda: Father. So how he can avoid this father conception? If you mislead people that there is no father conception, that is not education; that is misleading. Father is there, everyone knows this simple philosophy. And if he is misleading them, then that is not philosopher, that is cruelty. A man is naturally believing that there is father and there is father's father, and he is diverting his attention from this natural belief. So this is cruelty. He is committing cruelty to human understanding, simple understanding.

Hayagrīva: He says, "I disagree with you when you go on to argue that man cannot in general do without the consolation of the religious illusion, that without it he would not endure the troubles of life, the cruelty of reality."

Prabhupāda: Man cannot do without education. Without education a man remains an animal. Therefore in the human society there is a school, college, an institution, teacher-not in the animal society. So the principle is, the man is meant for being learned or being educated. That you cannot deny, that man life should not be like cats and dogs, simply eating, sleeping, mating, and dying. That is not man's life. Man's life is to become advanced in knowledge and education. And as I have already described, the ultimate knowledge: to understand God. If he is so-called educated, without any understanding of God, then his education is imperfect. You can deny the existence of God, but the God conception is there in the human society. Some may accept it, some may not accept it-that is another thing-but the conception of God, the whole civilized world, they have got some type of religion. Either you become Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, religion means there is some cultivation of knowledge to understand God. And to understand God is the ultimate knowledge. That is called Vedānta. Veda means knowledge, and the ultimate knowledge: Vedānta. So ultimate knowledge, it, what is that? That is the beginning of Vedānta education. What is that ultimate knowledge? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The Vedānta begins with this word, "Now this human form of life is to acquire the ultimate knowledge." Athāto brahma. Brahma means the ultimate. So, the absolute. Now it is the time to understand. So far understanding of sex, the dog also knows. You don't require to give him any education. So nobody is given education… Now of course they have adopted, but there is a Bengali proverb, "How to cry and how to enjoy sex, it doesn't require any education." When you are aggrieved, you cry automatically. When there is a sex impulse, you enjoy it automatically. It doesn't require any Mr. Freud. Without the help of any educator, everyone knows-cats, dogs, animals, human being-everyone knows how to enjoy sex life. It doesn't require any education.

So the Vedānta says that this kind of education is there in the animal kingdom also, sex philosophy. There is no question of philosophy, it is already there; anyone can enjoy it. Now, at this time, atha ato brahma-jijñāsā, now this human life is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, Brahman, because that is the ultimate knowledge. This ultimate knowledge can be acquired by the human being, not by the cats and dog. So if a philosopher, without any knowledge of God, doubtful knowledge of God, so he is imperfect, he is not even human being. He is cats and dogs. [break] God means supreme controller. So everything we see is controlled. The government is controller, but the supreme controller there must be. That's a fact. Now, if you want to know it clearly, then be educated. That is Vedānta. That is very reasonably said, that "What is that Brahman, God?" Immediately answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. God means, the Absolute Truth means, Brahman means from whom everything has emanated. We see everything is emanating. Just like we see the trees are emanating from the earth, and by eating the fruits, flowers, grains, the animal, human being, they are also emanating. So ultimate cause is this earth. We are emanating. We can say that "I am emanating from my mother." So the mother does not eat, then how he, his, her body can continue and how she can give another body within the womb? So ultimately we can see that the earth or the water is the source of emanation of everything. Then we can inquire wherefrom the water comes and wherefrom the earth comes, wherefrom the air comes, wherefrom the fire comes. This is philosophy. Then ultimately when we come, come to the supreme point of emanation, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "Here is the person, here is the source of everything." So that we must know. Simply in the middle struggling for understanding without any perfect knowledge, what is the value of this philosophy and knowledge? There is no value. You must come to the ultimate goal, the ultimate source of everything. "By accident," "perhaps," that, that is not knowledge. Definite knowledge. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll learn, Kṛṣṇa says,

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

[Bg. 10.8]

Why one should become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? When he understands perfectly that "Here is the ultimate source." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate.

So when you have got this knowledge, that this knowledge, jñāna, that how this knowledge comes? By researching for many, many life. Then, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], in this way researching, researching, researching, after many, many births, when he actually becomes in full awareness that "Here is the source," then He says, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: [Bg. 7.19] "Oh, here is…, Vasudeva is everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Then he begins his bhajana. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. That is life. Simply speculation, coming to know definite knowledge, "perhaps," "maybe," and this and that-what is the value of this knowledge? That is childish. That is childish. He is, he is saying others, for giving him God, that is childish, but he is himself a child. He cannot give us any definite knowledge. "By chance," "by accident," "perhaps." What is the value of that knowledge?

Hayagrīva: Freud's…, this is Freud's final conclusion on this point: "True, without religion man will then find himself in a difficult situation. He will have to confess his utter helplessness and his insignificant part in the working of the universe. He will have to confess that he is no longer the center of creation, no longer the object of the tender care of a benevolent providence. He will be in the same position as the child who has left the home where he was so warm and comfortable. But, after all, is it not the destiny of childishness to be overcome? Man cannot remain a child forever. He must venture at last into the hostile world. This may be called education to reality. Need I tell you that it is the sole aim of my book to draw attention to the necessity for this advance?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: The advance to reality.

Prabhupāda: That reality is good advice. But unfortunately, who is taking advantage of his advice? Because here we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā, the real point of religion, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. But these philosophers have misled the world so much that now it is very difficult to convince them that here is God speaking and here is religion. That service he has done. As they were innocent to accept the words of God, now they have become overintelligent. They think sex is God, and that is going on. So to counteract this mentality it will take some time, but anyone who takes, accept the Bhagavad-gītā, the words of God, and the ways and means of life as defined by God, if anyone takes, then he will be happy. That's a fact.

Hayagrīva: Christ said, "Unless he becomes a little child, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God."

Prabhupāda: Child.

Hayagrīva: Unless you become like a little child, you will not enter into the kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.

Hayagrīva: And Freud says you must grow up.

Prabhupāda: He is a, he is a crazy fellow. That's all. And all these rascal philosophers, they are more or less crazy. One who does not know what is God, what is the value of his knowledge? But our criterion of knowledge is one who has known God. As long as you do not come to that point, your knowledge is useless. Simply misleading. And that is not knowledge. It is a fact that there is some supreme controller. Now if one give education how that supreme controller is working, how He is Supreme, that is real education. And you cannot understand how the Supreme is working, you simply deny the Supreme, that is not knowledge. Supreme is there because you are controlled. How can you avoid the control? How you can say there is no supreme controller? You make a plan and it is frustrated. There is supreme controller. You are making arrangement to live here very happily; next day you die. So you are under controller. How can you deny it? So there is supreme controller. Now, knowledge means, "Who is that supreme controller? How He is controlling?" Not that deny it, "Grapes are sour." Jumping, jumping, jumping, jumping, when he could not reach the grapes, he said, "Oh, there is no need of them. It is sour." Their position is like that. They cannot understand… God is there, that's a fact-supreme controller. But they cannot explain, neither they can understand. There is jackal struggle. Jackal jumping, jumping; when he cannot get the, reach the grapes, he says, " Why (indistinct)? It is sour." Their conclusion is like that. They cannot understand what is God, how He is acting, what is religion, and they are defying, "There is no need of religion, there is no need of God." Jackal struggling, that's all. Jackal struggling is no philosophy. (end)

JUNG.HAY

Carl Gustav Jung

Hayagrīva: This is Carl Jung, Carl Gustav Jung. One interesting point is that the inscription above the door of Jung's house read, in Latin, "Summoned or not summoned, God will be there."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And in his book, his autobiography, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, we find most of his thoughts about the, about theology and psychoanalysis. In that book he writes, "I find that all my thoughts circle around God like the planets around the sun and are as irresistibly attracted by Him. I would feel it to be the grossest sin if I were to oppose any resistance to this force." He sees all creatures as parts of God. He says, "Man cannot compare himself with any other creature. He is not a monkey, not a cow, not a tree. I am a man. But what is it to be that? Like every other being, I am a splinter of the infinite Deity."

Prabhupāda: Part and parcel. That is our theory. We are part and parcel of God. Like fire and the sparks.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "It was obedience which brought me grace. One must be utterly abandoned to God. Nothing matters but fulfilling His will. Otherwise all is folly and meaninglessness."

Prabhupāda: Very good. Surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is real life. Śaraṇāgati, to surrender to God, to accept things which is favorable to God, to reject things which are unfavorable to God, always maintaining conviction that "God will give me all protection," and remain humble and meek, and think oneself as one of the members of God's family-that is spiritual communism. As the Communist they think a member of a certain community, similarly a man's duty is to think always as member of God's family. The same idea I was speaking, that God is the supreme father, material nature is the mother, and anything, any living entity coming out of material nature, they are all sons of God. So practically we see that all living entities coming out, either from land or from water or from the air-everywhere there is living entity-so the material nature is the mother. There is no doubt about it. And we have got experience that mother cannot produce child without connection with the father. So this is absurd to think that without father a child can be born. That is foolishness. Father must be there, and that supreme father is God. This conception of a spiritual family is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness.

Hayagrīva: Concerning God's personality, he writes, "According to the Bible, God has a personality and is the ego of the universe, just as I myself am the ego of my psyche and physical being." But here…

Prabhupāda: Yes, God… So that is our view, that consciousness, just like I am conscious, but I am conscious about my body. I am not conscious of your body. This is individual consciousness. You are conscious of your body, but you are not conscious of my body. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-kṣetrajña, that individual soul is conscious of his own body, each and every individual soul, but there is another consciousness, that is superconsciousness. That is God. God is in everyone's heart, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. I am also within the body, but He is not like that individual soul, limited within that body. He is residing in everyone's body, so that He is superconscious, Supersoul, Paramātmā.

Hayagrīva: Continuing on this, God's personality, these are his recollections of his spiritual encounters. He says, "But here I encountered a formidable obstacle. Personality, after all, surely signifies character. Now character is one thing and not another, that is to say, it involves certain specific attributes. But if God is everything, how could He still possess a distinguishable character? On the other hand, if He does have a character He can only be the ego of a subjective, limited world. Moreover, what kind of character or what kind of personality does He have? Everything depends on that, for unless one knows the answer, one cannot establish a relationship to Him."

Prabhupāda: His character is transcendental character, not like the material character. Āprakṛta. It is said, just like bhakta-vatsala, He is very kind to His devotee. This kindness is, is one of His characteristic. Similarly, He has got unlimited qualities, and according to that transcendental quality He is sometimes described, but all those qualities are permanent. Whatever qualities and character we have got, they are minute manifestation of God's character, because we have got character also. That is only a minute manifestation of God's character. He is the origin of all character. That is described in the śāstras. He has got also mind, He has got also feelings, He has got also sensation, He has got senses, sense perception, sense gratification. Everything is there. That is unlimitedly, and we, being part and parcel of God, we possess in minute quantities all the God's quality. Actually our characteristics, qualities are simply atomic manifestation of God's quality. The original qualities are in God.

Hayagrīva: Jung complained that at least the philosophies and theologies of the West…

Prabhupāda: And He, He is person also.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He is person. That is the Vedic description. He is person exactly like us, but His personality is unlimited. The same example I was giving, that I am a person so far I am concerned with this particular body, but He is a person living in every body, Super Person. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that that personality, either of God or of the individual soul, eternally existing. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that in the past we are existing, at present we are existing, and in the future we shall continue to exist. So past, present, future. That means all the time, eternally, both of them are person. One person is unlimited, and the other person is limited. Finite and infinite. So God is person, but the unlimited qualities, unlimited characteristics, unlimited power, unlimited strength, unlimited influence, unlimited knowledge. That is God. And we are also the same-person-with little power, little influence, little knowledge, everything limited. That is the difference between two personalities. One is limited, another is unlimited, but the qualities are the same.

Hayagrīva: Jung then found that the philosophies and theologies, at least of the West, could not give him a clear picture of God's personality. He concluded, "What is wrong with these philosophers? I wondered. Evidently they know of God only by hearsay."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was complaining, that none of these rascals have any clear idea of God. They are simply speculating. Therefore they cannot speak anything about religion or God, because they have no clear conception. But so far we are concerned, we have got clear conception of God: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." And we want to give that conception to the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Person, Supreme God, by everyone, all authorities, past, present, future must be. So why they do not accept this personal God? If they have got any reason, if they have got any logic, any philosophy, here is Kṛṣṇa, perfect God. So He, according to Vedic scripture, He is complete, cent percent God. Other incarnation of God, they are not cent percent. It has been analyzed in our Nectar of Devotion. Up to Nārāyaṇa, ninety-four percent God, ah, ninety-six percent God. Lord Śiva, eighty-four percent God, Lord Brahma, er, eighty…

Hari-śauri: Seventy-eight?

Prabhupāda: Seventy-eight percent. That is also very minute quantity of the characteristics and qualities of God. But Kṛṣṇa is full-fledged, cent percent God. That Rūpa Goswami has analyzed in the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. We have given the translation in Nectar of Devotion. So God is person. Simply if we study man's character, then we can study also God, the same character. Loving affairs, as we also want to enjoy with friends, with girls, with parents, with superiors, with servants, as we take pleasure in these relationship, similarly, God also takes pleasure in these similar relationship. He has got five relationship primarily, and seven relationship secondarily. So twelve kinds of relationship, and therefore He is described, akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu, reservoir of all pleasure. That is His completeness. So the philosophers, they should try to understand, and very, I mean, analytically, what is God. They do not know God, and they speak of God, imaginary. That is not perfect knowledge. One must study what is God with perfect knowledge. That is advancement of knowledge. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha

yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ

asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ

yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu

[Bg. 7.1]

Kṛṣṇa addressed Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, simply by concentrating your attachment for Me," mayy āsakta, "and practicing the bhakti-yoga under My light," mayy āsakta-manāḥ yogam… Mad-āśrayah. You can learn about God by keeping yourself always under the protection of God, or under the protection of the representative of God. Then, asaṁśayam, without any doubt, samagram, perfectly, you can understand God. Otherwise there is no possibility. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, asaṁśayam. Then there will be no doubt whether God is there or not, what is my relationship with God, what is my duty, and so on. Everything you will know. That is perfect life, Kṛṣṇa conscious life.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "The theologians are different from the philosophers in this respect at any rate. At least they are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him. God's existence does not depend on our proofs. I understood that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is transcendental conviction, and it is very easy to understand that God is there. I do not know God, that is another thing. I will have to learn it. But God is there. There is no doubt about it. Any sane man can understand. You cannot say there is no God, because you are under control. So who is that controller? The supreme controller is God. This is sane man's conclusion. Now, I do not know who is God then, but there is God, that's a fact. So he is right when he says I believe or not believe, there is God. Now, it will depend on my personal endeavor to know God. Go on.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "In my darkness I could have wished for nothing better than a real live guru"-he uses the word guru-"someone possessing superior knowledge and ability who would have disentangled for me the involuntary creations of my imagination."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru. Guru, that is required: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is Vedic process. To have, to possess perfect knowledge one must have guru, and guru means one has…, one is actually representative of God, not theoretically, but one who has practically seen and experienced God. We have to approach such guru then by service and by surrender, and by sincere inquiries we shall be able to understand what is God. That is required. The speculation is no use. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam [SB 10.14.29]. This is the statement of Vedic literature. "My Lord, one who has received a little mercy and favor of Your Lordship, he can understand. Others may speculate for millions and millions of years, avacintya-tattve. Still they will remain in the fathom of inconceivable energy. There is no possibility." This is not the process. It clearly described in the Bhāgavata, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55], simply through the process of bhakti. Bhakti means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], hearing, chanting about Viṣṇu, always remembering Him. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. That is the process. Always glorify the Lord, and devotee's only business is to glorify. That is devotee. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyās tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ [SB 7.9.43]. A devotee's consciousness is always drowned in the ocean of the pastimes of the Supreme Lord, unlimited activities, and devotees always think of that activities. Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta, that is, means that drowned in the ocean of the activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So that is transcendental bliss, and one should learn how to be always merged in the ocean of God consciousness. That training is given by the spiritual master; therefore one must have, ācāryavān puruṣo veda. One who is under the direction of ācārya, he knows everything about God. [break]

Hayagrīva: He gave the following criticism of Sigmund Freud. He says, "Sexuality evidently meant more to Freud than to other people. For him it was something to be religiously observed."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "One thing was clear. Freud, who had always made much of his irreligiosity, had now constructed a dogma, or rather in the place of God, whom he had lost, he had substituted another compelling image, that of sexuality."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. He has taken sexuality as God. But our position is that we must accept a leader. That is our natural tendency. So he gave up the leadership of God and took the leadership of sex. That is his position. Leadership we must have. That is…, this question also I asked to Professor Kotovsky, that "Where is the difference between your philosophy and our philosophy? You accept leader, Lenin. We accept leader, Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference in the process?" So this is the nature of human being, to accept a leader. But this man, unfortunately, he lost the leadership of God and he took leadership of sex. That is his position.

Hayagrīva: Jung concluded, concerning Freud, he said, "Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his monotony of interpretation expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side," that is the mystical side, "he could never be reconciled with himself."

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You are feeling sleepy. So then sleep. Feeling disturbed. [break]

Hayagrīva: He said that Freud's absorption with sexuality expressed a flight from himself, a fleeing from himself, from the side of himself which might be called mystical. As long as he refused to acknowledge that side, that is the mystical side, he could never be reconciled with himself, could never be at one with himself. So…

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was under the leadership of sexuality. That's a fact. Everyone is under the leadership. Just like sometimes we say, "The material scientists say like this, they say like this." He accepts the leadership. So we have to accept the leadership, but if we accept the leadership of Kṛṣṇa, then our life is perfect. Other leadership is māyā, māyā's leadership. But we have to accept leadership. There is no doubt of it. So he accepted the leadership of sex, but he did not admit it, but going on speaking on sex. And those who have taken the leadership of God, they will speak only of God, nothing else. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109], that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, that we are eternal servant of God. So as soon as we give up the service of Lord, then we have to accept the service of māyā. So all these different atheists, scientists, they are all servants of māyā instead of becoming servant of God. He is servant, but he is servant of māyā. That is the difference between devotee and the materialistic person.

Hayagrīva: He saw that the soul was always longing for light, the urge to rise out of the primal darkness, and he says, "That is the pent-up feeling that can be detected in the eyes of primitives," that is primitive people, "and also in the eyes of animals. There is a sadness in animals' eyes, and we never know whether that sadness is bound up with the soul of the animal or is a poignant message which speaks to us out of that existence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is seeking, that constitutionally he is servant. He is seeking serve master. That is natural potency. So in the animal kingdom, animal life, just like a small cat… What is called? Child of cat and dog, what is called? Cat? A baby chi…, a baby dog, what is called, puppy?

Devotee: Puppy.

Prabhupāda: The puppy is, you will sometimes find, they try to take shelter of some boy, of some man. Natural tendency. "Give me shelter. Keep me as your pet." They are happy. That means by nature they are wanting some shelter. A child is also wanting some shelter. So that is our constitutional position. So in the human form of life, when consciousness is developed, that tendency to have a leader, to take shelter, that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction that "You want shelter, you want guidance, so you take My guidance," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66], "then you will be perfect." That is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.

Hayagrīva: In 1938 Jung was invited by the British government to take part in celebrations connected with the twenty-fifth anniversary of the University of Calcutta. He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal."

Prabhupāda: Twenty-fifth anniversary?

Hayagrīva: Hm?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-fifth.

Hayagrīva: Anniversary, 1938.

Prabhupāda: So Calcutta University was started long ago.

Hari-śauri: 1913.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: 1913.

Hayagrīva: The University of Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: No. Calcutta University was started long ago.

Hayagrīva: Before that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Must have been misinformation.

Hayagrīva: Hm. Well it could have been mistyped or it could have been mis…

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maybe "eighteen…"

Hayagrīva: Ah-ha.

Prabhupāda: 1813 maybe.

Hayagrīva: 1938. I don't, I'll, I'll have to check these dates.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Calcutta University was started long ago.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal about…"

Prabhupāda: About 1813. 1813.

Hayagrīva: 1813. So maybe it's the…, maybe it was the anniversary that's wrong. Probably not the year, because he was most famous in '38. He wasn't…, before that he wasn't.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Anniversary maybe. Anniversary is going on.

Hayagrīva: It might have been the 50th anniversary also. He writes, "By that time I had read a great deal about Indian philosophy and religious history and was deeply convinced of the value of Oriental wisdom." On this visit Jung had an opportunity to talk with S. Subrahmania Ayer, the guru of the Mahārāja of Mysore, who hosted Jung. Jung says that he studiously avoided the so-called holy men. He says, "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself. Neither in Europe can I make any borrowings from the East, but I must shape my life out of myself, out of what my inner being tells me or what nature brings to me."

Prabhupāda: He did not like to accept any guru.

Hayagrīva: Self-reliance.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: This seems to be a self-reliance.

Prabhupāda: Then how he accepts Indian pleasure(?)?

Hayagrīva: Well on the one hand at least he didn't accept…

Prabhupāda: He must…

Hayagrīva: On the one hand he says he wanted a guru.

Prabhupāda: Huh.

Hayagrīva: Previously.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: But here, after going to Calcutta, perhaps it was the, the so-called gurus that he met that discouraged…

Prabhupāda: The so-called gurus are there, many. That is no doubt. So he might have seen some bogus guru, he did not like. But the principle of accepting guru cannot be avoided. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: That contradicts the previous statement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that after death the individual must pick up the level of consciousness which he left.

Prabhupāda: He continues.

Hayagrīva: The level of consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Continues.

Hayagrīva: Continues.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, according to that consciousness he has to accept a body. That is trasmigration of the soul. That ordinary person, they can only see the body, but along with the body there is mind and there is intelligence, there is ego. One cannot see what is mind, what is intelligence. So there is no reason that when the body is finished why the mind and the intelligence should be finished. But he cannot see the mind, cannot intell…, see the intelligence. He said everything is finished. Why everything should be finished? The body is finished, but the mind is not finished. So the soul is carried by mind, intelligence. That is subtle body. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. He is not finished, he is there. He is being carried by mind and intelligence. But these foolish person they cannot see. But even in lifetime they cannot see what is mind. They cannot see what is intelligence.

Hayagrīva: He says, "One's spiritual education must continue at the point he left off. If there were to be a conscious existence after death, it would, so it seems to me, have to continue on the level of consciousness attained by humanity, which in any age has an upper thought-variable limit."

Prabhupāda: That is clearly explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that the past consciousness, that passion, the consciousness is continuing. So even the body is destroyed, the consciousness continuing. So due to the consciousness he gets another body, and again, in that body, the future, past consciousness works. So, if, if, if in the past life he was a devotee, again he becomes devotee, and from the point where he died, the material body became destroyed, again, as soon as he gets a body, the same consciousness begins to work. Therefore we find somebody quickly accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness and sometime it takes delay. So it is continued, past. In every verse we see that, just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante means the consciousness is being continued but the body is changing. Therefore it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. Janma means to accept another gross body, but the consciousness is continuing. Just as Bhārata Mahārāja, he changed so many bodies but the consciousness continued. He remained in full understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is clear, but on account of, I mean to say, dull brain they cannot understand. Here is the reason, that you do not see mind. You have not seen. So Mr. John you see daily, but we don't see Mr. John's intelligence. We can perceive that this man is intelligent, but you have not seen what is intelligent. When he talks, you understand, you perceive, that he has got intelligence. So this gross body, when it is no more talking, so why that intelligence will be finished? This is common sense. When a man talks we say he is intelligent man, but we do not see what is intelligent. So the talking instrument is this body. So this body is finished, gross body is finished, does it mean that his consciousness, intelligence finished? No. That continues. Just like you dream. This body is not working-this is practical-but his consciousness is working, his mind is working. So similarly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After the destruction of this gross body, the mind, intelligence continues, and because to work the mind and intelligence he requires a body, so he develops body. That is transmigration of the soul. It is very clear to understand.

Hayagrīva: Well he felt that the level of consciousness could not supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet. I guess that's clear.

Prabhupāda: No, it can supersede, provided you get knowledge from authority. Just like somebody is sitting here, he has not seen India. But somebody who has full knowledge of India or seen or gone there, he can describe, and he can understand that there is place, India, the place is like this, like that. So similarly, from authority, just like Kṛṣṇa says, there is another nature: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That nature is eternal. Here, this nature as we find, it is not eternal. It is temporary. It takes birth, it is maintained for sometimes, it changes, it becomes old, and again destroyed, finished. And therefore in this material there is dissolution, but there is another world, which has no dissolution. That information we get from authority, Kṛṣṇa. Sanātanaḥ. Everything finished here, that is not finished. So we have to receive this knowledge from authority, not necessarily by your personal experience. Parokṣa, aparokṣa this is called. There are different stages of knowledge. Pratyakṣa, parokṣa, aparokṣa, adhokṣaja, aprākṛta. So that requires advancement of knowledge. So, not that all knowledge we can have by direct perception. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: He says, "This is probably why earthly life is of such great significance and why it is that what a human being brings over at the time of his death is so important. Only here in life on earth can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task." So since consciousness survives death it must therefore be elevated while man is on earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That consciousness should be developed automatically. Paurva-dehikam in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said. What is that verse? In the Sixth Chapter, paurva-dehikam.

Hari-śauri: "The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people or into a family of rich aristocracy."

Prabhupāda: Hm. Then?

Hari-śauri:

atha vā yoginām eva

kule bhavati dhīmatām

etaddhi durlabhataraṁ

loke janma yad īdṛśam

[Bg. 6.42]

"Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world."

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hari-śauri:

tatra taṁ buddhi-saṁyogaṁ

labhate paurva-dehikam

[Bg. 6.43]

Prabhupāda: Dehikam.

Hari-śauri:

yatate ca tato bhūyaḥ

saṁsiddhau kuru-nandana

"On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru."

Prabhupāda: That is… When the, the incompleteness of his yoga practice, if he dies prematurely, or he could not finish and die, so the consciousness goes with him. So, in the next life again he begins from that point, paurva-dehikam. What is the exact word? Tatra? Buddhi…?

Hari-śauri: Buddhi-saṁyogam, revival.

Prabhupāda: Ah, buddhi-saṁyogam.

Hari-śauri: Revival of such consciousness.

Prabhupāda: The intelligence becomes revived, buddhi-saṁyogam. Then?

Hari-śauri: Labhate paurva-dehikam.

Prabhupāda: Ah, labhate paurva-dehikam. That is everything, spiritual and material. Materially also we find sometime when one person is very extraordinary individual. In the class some student picks up very quickly, some student cannot understand. So this is continuation. One is intelligent means he has got some previous revival of his consciousness. So in this way it is going on. That is the proof, immortality of the soul. Otherwise why? Paurva-dehikam, previous birth. This is the proof.

Hayagrīva: There's a lot of sort of interesting points here.

Prabhupāda: Hm. [break]

Hayagrīva: He points out that there's a paradox surrounding death. "On the one hand, from the point of view of the ego," or what we call the false ego, "death is a horrible catastrophe, a fearful piece of brutality. On the other hand, from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is a joyful event, in the life of eternity it is a wedding."

Prabhupāda: Yes. In all cases it is eternal, but it is, death is horrible for the person who is going to accept a lower grade of life, and it is pleasure for the devotee, that he is going back to home, back to God. That is the difference.

Hayagrīva: So it's not always a joyful event for the soul.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: How it can be? If he is, if he is not developed…

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: …to spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is very horrible for him. But in this life he became very proud, "I don't care for God, I am independent," and so on, so on, so on, talking like a crazy fellow. But after death he has to accept a body as dictated by nature: "My dear sir, you have worked like a dog, you become a dog. You liked this surfing in the sea, now you become a fish." That will be given by the superior order. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. You have worked in a certain way. Now, by superior, super, superior dictation you will accept a type of body naturally. If you have infected some disease, when you are attacked by the disease you cannot protest because you have got already infected. Similarly, we are creating our next body, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. We are keeping ourself in touch with a certain type of modes of material nature. That means we are creating our next body. How we…, can you stop it? That is nature's way. The same, if you have infected some disease you must get that disease. Similarly, there are three modes of material nature, tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa, and transcendental. As you have kept your association in this life you get the similar body, paurva-dehikam. So even if you fail to achieve the highest goal in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, still, because you have kept yourself in the association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you are going to get the chance to take birth śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41], either in the family of pure, purity, brāhmaṇa, or in the aristocratic family. In both the families, you get the chance of reviving your spiritual consciousness. But we forget that, or we do not get superior guidance, then we again fall. But there is chance. One who is born in rich family, one who is born in high-grade family, he has got the chance, and (indistinct) to take lessons from Bhagavad-gītā that "I have become…, I am born in rich family or in a brāhmaṇa family, so I am well situated. Now I must take where I left my, developed my spiritual consciousness." So if he tries, he gets the chance. So human form in general is a chance for making progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, especially when one is born in aristocratic family or a brāhmaṇa family or a Vaisnava family.

Hayagrīva: Despite so many interesting points, Jung appears to have a somewhat limited understanding of Indian philosophy. He did not appear to understand that saṁsāra, although it appears to be endless, can be ended if one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, that there is mukti, that saṁsāra can be overcome by surrendering unto Mukunda. He writes, "The succession of birth and death is viewed as an endless continuity, as an eternal wheel rolling on forever without a goal. Man lives and attains knowledge and dies and begins again from the beginning." He says, "Only with the Buddha does the idea of a goal emerge, namely the overcoming of earthly existence."

Prabhupāda: Hm. So overcoming the earthly existence means you enter in the spiritual world, because spirit soul is eternal. So from this atmosphere to another. That is explained clearly in the Bhagavad-gītā, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this present body, this is material, so those who continue to, in the cycle of birth and death, they get another material body, but those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they do not get another material body, but he goes to Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.

Hayagrīva: Kṛṣṇa says that over and over in Bhagavad-gītā. He says it many times.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that is for the dviṣataḥ krūrān [Bg. 16.19], those who are envious of Kṛṣṇa. For them, continuous. And those who are not envious, accepts Kṛṣṇa's instruction, surrenders unto Him and understands Kṛṣṇa, for them this is the last birth, material birth. After this he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Concerning the question whether karma is personal…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …he writes, "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the pre-ordained destiny with which a man enters life represents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."

Prabhupāda: What is that impersonal karma? Karma is always personal.

Hayagrīva: Karma is always personal.

Prabhupāda: Personal.

Hayagrīva: He points out that Buddha was twice asked by His disciples whether man's karma is personal or not. Each time he fended off the question and did not go into the matter. To know this, he said, would not contribute to liberating oneself.

Prabhupāda: Because he did not, he did not teach about the soul. Therefore, how he could touch that personal?

Hayagrīva: He refused to respond to those questions.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he did not accept the soul. That as soon as he denied the personal aspect of the soul, how there can be personal karma? So he wanted to avoid this; otherwise his whole philosophy becomes different.

Hayagrīva: Well this is Jung's conclusion on the matter. He says, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific person?" [break] (aside:) …other track?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Hayagrīva: This is a continuation of Jung. Concerning whether or not karma is personal, Jung concludes, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific personality, and did I progress so far in that life that I am now able to seek a solution?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is tle fact.

Hayagrīva: He says, "I do not know."

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, tataḥ paurva-dehikaṁ yatate paurva-dehikam. This is individual.

Hayagrīva: He says, "Buddha left the question open, and I like to assume that he himself did not know with certainty."

Prabhupāda: (chuckles softly while Hayagrīva continues reading)

Hayagrīva: "I could well imagine that I might have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer, that I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me."

Prabhupāda: That is fact.

Hayagrīva: "When I die, my deeds will follow along with me. That is how I imagine it."

Prabhupāda: That is karma.

Hayagrīva: That's personal karma?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "I will bring with me what I have done. In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."

Prabhupāda: No. So you are, if you are regularly progressing, that then at the end it is not empty, it is completeness. To go back to home, back to Godhead, that is completeness; that is not empty. The Māyāvādī can not understand the posi…, positivity of God's kingdom, so they simply make empty. There is no positive concept, therefore…

Hayagrīva: No. He says… No. He says, "It is important that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that nobody has…

Hayagrīva: That, in others words, he has good deeds and…

Prabhupāda: No, not only good deeds, that is our aspiration. We don't want emptiness.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because these materialistic persons, they do not want emptiness, they think that "After finishing this life everything will be empty. So let me enjoy as much as possible in this life." That is their view, that "I am going to be empty. Now before becoming empty, let me enjoy as far…" And the sense enjoyment is the center of material life. Therefore these materialistic person(s) are so much after sense enjoyment. Propriety is one of them. Because their life is empty after death, so because, be…, "Before it becomes empty, let me enjoy as far as possible."

Hayagrīva: He believes that karma brings rebirth. He says, "If a karma still remains to be disposed of, then the soul relapses again into desires and returns to life once more…"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: "…perhaps even doing so out of the realization that something remains to be completed. In my case it must have been primarily a passionate urge toward understanding which brought about my birth, for that is the strongest element in my nature."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that understanding, I do not know whether he has fulfilled. That understanding is Kṛṣṇa. That is explained, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That understanding is full, complete, when he comes to the point of understanding Kṛṣṇa, and as soon as he understands Kṛṣṇa, his life is successful. His, this journey, material journey, stops. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is full understanding. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When he understands Kṛṣṇa in complete… And Kṛṣṇa is giving lesson how he, one can understand Kṛṣṇa completely. Asaṁśayaṁ samagram māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu [Bg. 7.1]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Now hear how you can understand Me in complete, without any doubt." That He begins in the Seventh Chapter. So if we understand Kṛṣṇa in complete, without any doubt, then our next birth is in the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is the version of Bhāgavata. So we have got this opportunity, at least those who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to understand Kṛṣṇa completely, without any doubt. Then our life is successful.

Hayagrīva: He sees the word of God and God as being the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: He says, "It is not that God is a myth, but that myth is the revelation of a divine light in man. It is not we who invent myth; rather, it speaks to us as a word of God. The word of God comes to us, and we have no way of distinguishing whether and to what extent it is different from God."

Prabhupāda: It is not at all different from God. God is absolute; therefore His words are as good as God. That we were discussing this morning, that God's name and God is the same. God's pastimes and God is the same. God's Deity and God is the same. So anything in relationship with God is God, just like Bhagavad-gītā is God. Because everything is God, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam [Bg. 9.4], everything is God, but when there is God realization, that is God. Otherwise God, everything is God. Without God, nothing can exist.

Hayagrīva: He conceived of what he called a persona. He says, "The persona is the individual system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world. A profession, for example, has its own characteristic persona, only the danger is people become identical with their personas: the professor with his textbook, the tenor with his voice. One can say, with a little exaggeration, that the persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is."

Prabhupāda: That persona-for as I take it from this statement-that persona, when when comes to the understanding that I am eternal servant of God, that persona is salvation, perfection. Persona must be there, but so long one is in the material world, his persona, or identification with some interest, varieties. Sometimes his persona is with the family, his persona is with the community or with the nation or with some idealism, Communism, this "ism," that "ism," this is going on. But when that persona comes to the understanding of Kṛṣṇa, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa," that is perfection. Persona must continue.

Hayagrīva: So this persona he's speaking of is like the false ego.

Prabhupāda: The false ego, so long he is in the material world. Otherwise "I am." "I am American," this is false ego, and "I am servant of God, Kṛṣṇa," that is reality, that is real ego. We say, therefore, false ego. Ego must be there. That purified ego is, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."

Hayagrīva: He envisions the self as a personality…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …composed of the conscious and also the subconscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is depending on the personality, and he is surrounded by so many conceptions. When the en…, what is called, (indistinct), we see different types of dreams, but when we are purified, then, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu was dreaming Kṛṣṇa's pastime. So similarly, when we are completely purified we dream also about Kṛṣṇa, His activities, His preaching, so many in connection with reference to Kṛṣṇa. So persona is permanent, but when we apply this persona in the material activities, that is temporary, false, false ego, and when the same persona is engaged as servant of Kṛṣṇa, that is self-realization.

Hayagrīva: He believed that the self, which is basically a personality…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …composed of the conscious and the subconscious, the sub…, can never be fully known by the individual, but it does have individuality.

Prabhupāda: That individual, I, I know that I am individual person, I have got my own ideas, my own activities. Where is the difficulty? Simply it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. I am identifying with America or India or Hindu or Muslim or this or that. This should be purified. I should identify with Kṛṣṇa, that "I am only servant of Kṛṣṇa and devotees." Then I am purified.

Hayagrīva: He did… He speaks of the soul in this way. He says, "If the human soul is anything, it must be of unimaginable complexity and diversity, so that it cannot possibly be approached through a mere psychology of instinct."

Prabhupāda: That he does not know. As soon as we train ourself, that just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a śūdra, I am not a sannyāsī, I am not brahmacārī." By negation. "I am not, I am not, I am not." Then what is your actual? That gopī-bhartuḥ kamalayor dāsa-dāsānu: [Cc. Madhya 13.80] "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of the maintainer of gopīs." That means Kṛṣṇa. "That is my real identification." So I have, so long we do not identify as the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, there will be so many varieties of identification, and bhakti, devotional service, means to become purified from all this false identification.

Hayagrīva: He says, "I can only gaze with wonder and awe at the depths and heights of our psychic nature."

Prabhupāda: Psychic nature means so long you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious there will be varieties of psychic nature, because we are changing constantly to different bodies by transmigration. So we, we are accumulating varieties of experiences. But if we don't change, remain fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then one identification we have got-that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to serve Him." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73], as Arjuna realized after studying Bhagavad-gītā. "Yes," naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā. "Now I have revived my real consciousness and I will act as You dictate." That is final.

Hayagrīva: Concerning God and God's relation…

Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān mayācyuta. Find out.

Hari-śauri: What was that line again, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Naṣṭaḥ, n-a-s-t-a, naṣṭaḥ mohaḥ.

Hari-śauri: Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Now we, we are passing on through mohaḥ, illusion. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness the delusion should be over.

Hari-śauri: Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat-prasādān mayācyuta.

Prabhupāda: Tvat-prasādāt.

Hari-śauri: Sthito 'smi.

Prabhupāda: Tvat-prasāda?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri: Tvat-prasādān mayācyuta.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Tvat-pradāda, "by Your mercy." This mohaḥ, the illusory existence, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am black," "I am white," "Hindu," "Muslim," this is all mohaḥ. So it can be liberated. From this mohaḥ we can be liberated by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Naṣṭaḥ mohaḥ smṛtiḥ labdhā prasādāt tvat, "by Your mercy." Then?

Hari-śauri: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye…

Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ: "Now all my doubts are over. I am fixed up now in my original position." So what is that original position?

Hari-śauri: Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava.

Prabhupāda: Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: [Bg. 18.73] "Now I simply act and do whatever You say, that's all." That is perfection. He is perfect. Everything is there.

Hayagrīva: Concerning God and the individual soul, he writes…

Prabhupāda: Now here is the perfection. Kṛṣṇa is speaking; individual soul, Arjuna, is hearing. So hearing, hearing, when he comes to the conclusion that "My all illusion is now over by Your mercy. Now I am fixed up in my original position." And what is that original position? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: [Bg. 18.73] "Whatever You say, I shall do. The Bhagavad-gītā began from the point that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "You fight," and he denied to fight. He put so many pleas, that "How can I fight with them?" and so on, so on, so on, so on, so on. This whole discussion was made. Now at the end he says, "Now my mohaḥ, illusion, is over. I am situated in my own original constitutional position." What is that? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: [Bg. 18.73] "Whatever You say, I shall do, that's all. That's my position." That conclusive platform, that we shall simply execute the orders of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. [break]

Hayagrīva: This is continuation of Jung. Jung noted that there are five types of rebirths, not he that particularly ascribed to them, but that he noted that in religions that there are five types of rebirth. One is called metempsychosis. He says, "According to this view, one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences, or from another point of view it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations. It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not. There may only be a continuity of karma." So this is like a transmigration of souls.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the technical name?

Hayagrīva: But… He called, its metempsychosis.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?

Hayagrīva: It means transmigration of souls…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …but through different, passing through different bodily existences.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: The life sequence is interrupted by different reincarnations, but it's not certain whether or not personality survives. There may only continuity of karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Personal, personality is there. Suppose a man rebukes a dog. So the dog also responses. Even a small ant, it is going to certain direction, if you check it, it will protest. So personality is there always, either in the body of human being, cats, dogs, even an ant. So the bodily changes do not affect the personality, but one identifies himself according to the body. When a soul is within the, a body of a dog, he thinks in that bodily conception, "I am dog, I have my duty." In the human society also. When one is born in America, he thinks, "I am American, and my duty is like this, my duty is like this, I am…" So this, according to the body the personality manifests, but personality is there.

Hayagrīva: Personality is there certainly, but is it continued? Is there a continuity of personality from the dead body to the new body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Hayagrīva: Well, according to the first theory of rebirth, that's not guaranteed. Now the second theory of rebirth…

Prabhupāda: No. That they do not know. The same soul is, is passing through another gross body with his mental, intellectual identification. He is…, that is nature's gift. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. As we have infected a certain type of modes of nature, he is getting a similar body, but the person is the same.

Hayagrīva: Now the, this would be the view, the second view, that is reincarnation. "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality. Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences, and that these existences were one's own, namely that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."

Prabhupāda: Not human body. Just, we have got historical references in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. A king, Bhārata Mahārāja, he was king, and in next life he became a deer, and the next life he became a brāhmaṇa. So the soul is continuing, changing. The example is given, just like a man changes his dress. The man is the same; the dress may be different. That is going on. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. This very word is there. Just when the dress is old it cannot be used any more, he has to change another, to another dress. It is very common sense. So now that next dress you have to purchase or you have to prepare according to your money. Your dress is something now; the next dress you will purchase according to your money. So the exact example is very nice-to change the dress. The man is the same, but he exchanges dress, and the dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. This is common sense. So the price means karma. According to karma he has done, he gets a particular type of body.

Hayagrīva: The third type…

Prabhupāda: Another continuation is that the child changes body. So as he was acting in his childhood, he does not act in the same way when he has got the different body of a young man, but the same soul is there. It can be understood very easily.

Hayagrīva: The third type of rebirth listed is called resurrection. Now there are two types of resurrection. He says, "It may be a carnal, that is gross, material body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is the Christian doctrine, is that at the end of the world the…, somehow or other, through the miracle of God, the gross body will reassemble itself and ascend into heaven or descend into hell. Somehow survival of the gross body. He says, "On a higher level…"

Prabhupāda: And what he will do in the meantime?

Hayagrīva: I don't know what happens…

Devotee: (indistinct)

Hayagrīva: …what happens to the material elements. The material elements disintegrate, disintegrate…

Prabhupāda: The material body…

Hayagrīva: They're distributed in nature.

Prabhupāda: …it finishes, but of course this idea can be maintained. In the higher sense, that is not gross body; that is spiritual body. That is applicable to God and special representative of God, not to all. Then that is not material body; that is spiritual body. Means when God appears He appears in His spiritual body. It does not change. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that millions of years ago He spoke to the sun-god, and Arjuna questioned, "How it is to be understood that millions of years ago You spoke it?" So He said that "Yes, I did. You were also present, but you do not remember. I remember." So how it is possible? One who does not change the body, He can remember. Just like when we do not change the body, I can remember, but when we change body we do not remember. This is the principle. So this resurrection, I do not know what the exact meaning, but as to the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa said, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā [Bg. 4.6]. He comes in His original body, not covered by material body. Therefore, because He has no material body, there is no change.

Hayagrīva: I think the Christian, they must…, they do not have a clear idea of this.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: He says, "On a higher level the process of resurrection is no longer understood in a gross material sense. It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus glorificaciones, that is the glorified body, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."

Prabhupāda: That I said, the spiritual body. The spiritual body never changes. When one comes with the spiritual body there is no change. Material body changes, but God has no material body. The conception of…, Māyāvādī conception that Absolute Truth is impersonal, when He comes as a person He accepts a material body, that is not understood by those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge or take information from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. Because He appears as a human being, rascals think that He is a human being, but He is not. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto. He has no knowledge of the spiritual body.

Hayagrīva: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovacio and applies to the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being. Well-known prototypes of this change are the transfiguration and ascension of Christ and the assumption of the mother of God into heaven after her death together with her body. In other words, the body is somehow…, it doesn't die, the gross body doesn't die, but it's transformed.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual, spiritual body continues. Spiritual body never dies. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So hanyamāne, destruction, is of the material body. The spiritual body is never destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. The spiritual body, neither it is generated, neither it is dead. Nityaḥ śāśvataḥ: it is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: [Bg. 2.20] it, it is not destroyed even after the destruction of the material body. That is spiritual body.

Hayagrīva: But is there any example of this ascension into heaven? Didn't Arjuna…

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hayagrīva: …ascend into…

Devotee: Yudhiṣṭhira?

Hayagrīva: The higher… Who?

Devotee: Yudhiṣṭhira was…

Hayagrīva: Was it Yudhiṣṭhira?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many instances. The special instance is Kṛṣṇa and His associates.

Hayagrīva: They didn't go through any death of any sort.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hayagrīva: But the body traveled to…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …higher spheres.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is…

Hayagrīva: Kṛṣṇa also took Arjuna…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: …to…

Prabhupāda: Spiritual body everyone possesses.

Hayagrīva: The fifth… [break] This is the continuation of Carl Jung. The fifth type of rebirth is called transformation, and this is a form of indirect rebirth. One may use the initiation ceremony of the twice-born, of the brāhmaṇa. In other words, one has to witness or take part in some rite of transformation. This may be a ceremony, and through his presence at the ritual the individual participates in divine grace.

Prabhupāda: That is transfer, transformation of the body into knowledge. Dvija, this word, exact word, is dvija. One birth is by the father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. That means…, that is also liberation. He understands that he is not this material body. That is spiritual education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. So birth of knowledge, that is called dvija.

Hayagrīva: Now all of…

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Hayagrīva: All of these preceding quotes were taken from Jung's autobiography.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hayagrīva: Now the following quotes are taken from a, a much later book, one of the last books he wrote, called The Undiscovered Self. And it's very popular, and in it he discusses religion, in certain ways almost anticipates the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. At the beginning he defines the purpose of religion. He says, "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God, or to the path of salvation and liberation." And of the first instance he gives Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the last instance he gives Buddhism. He says, "From this basic fact, that is the relationship of the individual to God, all ethics is derived, which, without the individual's responsibility before God, can be called nothing more than conventional morality."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Morality, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, that nobody can approach God without being purified of all sinful reaction. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. A person who has finished all sinful activities, and simply standing on the platform of pious activities, they can understand what is God and be engaged in God's service. And another place it is said by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, param brahma." Every living being is Brahman, spiritual, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being; therefore He is paraṁ brahma, and the paraṁ dhāma, and the resort of everything, ultimate resort of everything, and pavitra, purified, there is no material contamination. So, what is this? What does he say in this?

Hayagrīva: That, that same point?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: All ethics are derived.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So to become completely pure, then he is the necessity of morality and ethics. Just like we prescribe, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. If we avoid these thing, then we can stay on the platform of purity. And God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is based on this morality. One who cannot follow the principles, he falls down from the spiritual platform, and he cannot make any progress. So purity is the basic principle of God consciousness.

Hayagrīva: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes that "The Communist revolution has debased man, because it robs him of his freedom, not only in the social but in the moral and spiritual sense. The state has taken the place of God. That is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."

Prabhupāda: Yes, I agree with him. That is the degradation of human civilization. But the philosophy of the Communist, that everyone has equal right or everyone must take share of the state equally, that is little, basic principle of real communism. According to our understanding, God is the father, material nature is the mother, and we, all living entities, are sons of the father and mother. So as sons everyone has right to live at the cost of father's property. The whole universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all living entities, they are being supported by the father. But one should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to him. That is, Īśopaniṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. There is no need of encroaching on others' property. We should not become envious of the capitalist or rich man, because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I should be satisfied with my allotment. I should not encroach upon others' allotment. But the exploitation idea is not there. The same thing, that nobody should exploit. If one has become rich man, that's all right. That, that is natural. One is born in rich family, from his very birth he is a rich man. So why we should interfere his richness? But everyone should be God conscious. Either the rich man or the poor man, they must be God conscious. And God consciousness means that the property I am owning, or the position I am placed in, that is by God's arrangement. Therefore my duty is to serve God in my position. Sthane sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ manobhiḥ. This is the philosophy of, of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, confirmed by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Sthane sthitāḥ. We should stay in our place, as it is allotted by God, but our common culture should be śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ manobhiḥ. We should hear about God and act accordingly-it doesn't matter in which work-then there will be harmony. If we become envious, that "Why this man has become rich? I shall encroach upon him," that is again, another type of revolution or encroachment. That is not required. You remain in your position as you have been allotted, but everyone be engaged in the service of the Lord. The, another example is that the, there are different position of different parts of the body-the head, arms, the belly, the legs. They are different parts of body doing different function. But the idea is how to maintain this body. So if we, even if we remain in different position, that is we get from the birth, but we, we should be engaged in the service of the Supreme, the owner. Just like the hand is owned by the body; therefore hand must work for the body. The leg is owned by the body; therefore the leg must work for the body. So we are all part and parcel of God, and we should, everyone, we should work for God. And how we shall work, that we have to hear from the position where we are, and act accordingly, then there will be real spiritual communism.

Hayagrīva: In the atheistic Communism he says, "The goals of religion, deliverance from evil, reconciliation with God, rewards in the hereafter, and so on, turns into worldly promises about freedom from care for one's daily bread, the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours." In other words, material, worldly promises are given.

Prabhupāda: In the Communism?

Hayagrīva: In, in atheistic Com…, in Communism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they have no idea of spiritual life, neither they can understand that there is spirit with the soul, within the body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. That they cannot understand.

Hayagrīva: But he feels that socialism or Marxism, Communism, cannot possibly replace religion in the proper traditional sense.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not religion. It is simply mental speculation-how to adjust material things. It will never be able to adjust it. That is their simply imagination. It will all fail at the ultimate end.

Hayagrīva: He says, "A natural function which has existed from the beginning like the religious function cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

Prabhupāda: The thing is that these people, they do not understand what is religion. Religion you cannot avoid. That is characteristic. Just like we gave several times this example, that everything has got a particular characteristic. Just like salt, salt is never sweet, and sweet is never salt. It has got a characteristic. A chile is pungent. Similarly, living entity, we are…, what is our characteristic? Our characteristic is to render service. Either you take Communism or this "ism" or that "ism," your real characteristic to render service, that will not change. The, in the capitalist country they are asking people that "You work in the factory and work for me, and whatever I say, you do," and the same thing is being dictated by the Communist leaders. Where is the difference? There is no difference, but it is only difference of nonsensical idea. Therefore a mass of people, they have to render service, either to Mr. Lenin or Mr. Roosevelt, it doesn't matter. He has to render service. But both the services are not being profitable to the mass of people. Therefore we suggest following the footprints of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you serve Kṛṣṇa. Service is your essential duty, but because your service is wrongly being executed, you are not happy. But if you render your service to Kṛṣṇa, that is natural and you will be happy. So our Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they are happy when rendering service to Kṛṣṇa, or God. So individually or collectively, if every state, every individual person renders service to Kṛṣṇa, then that is perfect stage of life. He has to render service to somebody, but because it is misplaced, he is never happy, but when the service is rendered to Kṛṣṇa, then he will be happy. Service you have to render, without any failure, but he does not know where to render service. That is the difficulty. Communist dictating, "You, sir, render service to me," and the capitalist dictating, "Give me service, sir." But Kṛṣṇa says, "No. No service to this, no service…" Sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You simply give your service to Me, then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo, you will become free from all sinful reaction of life." That is our position.

Hayagrīva: He feels that a materialistic Western capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudoreligion like Marxism. He says that the only way to combat atheistic Communism is for the individual to adopt, to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It has nothing to do with materialistic "isms." It is directly connect, connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām [Bg. 18.66]. So we are teaching that "You, you are servant, but your service is wrongly placed; therefore you are not happy. You place or render the service to Kṛṣṇa, you will be happy." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are neither for capitalism nor for so-called Communism, or not for so-called religion also. We are only for Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Hayagrīva: Jung laments the fact that such a nonmaterialistic faith does not presently exist in the West. He writes, "Not only does the West lack a uniform faith that could block the progress of a fanatical ideology"-that is Marxism-"but as the father of Marxist philosophy," because Marx was a Westerner, "it makes use of exactly the same spiritual," so-called spiritual, "assumptions, the same arguments and aims." So he feels that man is desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning, and he feels that Christianity is no longer effective in combating this.

Prabhupāda: He has predicted very nice. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, which is above everything, either Christianism or Marxism or capitalism or anything. It is based on Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So actually it is a fact. Kṛṣṇa says that if you adopt this principle of life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will remain above all sinful reaction of life and make progress spiritually, gradually.

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

[Bg. 8.15]

If you cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the result will be that "The devotee will come back to Me. And one who attains to Me, he hasn't got to go back again to this material world." In another place the same thing is said: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. "Those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious they, giving, after giving up this body"-everyone has to give up this body-"he does not accept any more the material body. He comes to Me." "Comes to Me" means "He comes to Me in his spiritual body." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to give up this material world and go back to home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva: He says, "If the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That… It is individual. We are individually initiating to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that the mass of people becomes a majority. If not in majority, at least a less percentage, then the face of the world will change. There is no doubt about it.

Hayagrīva: "The salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. Man's individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences," that is, atheistic Marxism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At least those who have taken Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, they never be converted either by Marxism or this "ism" or that "ism." That is not possible. They can convert the Marxist into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person can never be turned into Marxism. That is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because they have seen the highest perfection of life, they cannot be misled by all these third-class, fourth-class philosophies.

Hayagrīva: He also felt that materialistic progress is a possible hindrance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very good idea. That is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava tomāra bhajane bādhā. Material progress means expansion of the external energy, māyā, illusion. So we are already in illusion, and therefore we practically see the so-called scientists, so-called philosophers, because they are materially advanced, they cannot understand even what is God and what is our relationship. So this is hindrance, the so-called advancement of material science, of material knowledge, is undoubtedly hindrance. Tomāra bhajane bādhā. They are all hindrances to the progressive march of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When we minimize our necessities, that is saintly life-the bare necessities of life. We are not after very luxurious way of life. We are satisfied only with the bare necessities of life. So it is not an attempt for material progress. It is simply an attempt to make spiritual progress, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva: Because a favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside,…

Prabhupāda: No, everything originates from inside, from the soul.

Hayagrīva: He says, "There must be a deep-seated change in the inner man." He also sees that modern man needs a guru, or someone, he says, "to explain religion to man. Whereas the man of today can easily think and understand all the 'so-called truths' dished out to him by the State, his understanding of religion is made considerably more difficult owing to the lack of explanations. Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. It is essential that one must go to guru and with guru Guru is representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. He, guru, being representative of God, he is worshiped as God, but he never says that "I am God." He is servant God. He is worshiped as God, but he is servant of God, and God is the master God. This is the conception of Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And who is guru, that is described by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He asked everyone to become guru. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Wherever you are staying, it doesn't matter. You become a guru and deliver all these foolish persons who are in ignorance." So one may say that "I am not so learned. How can I become guru?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that you do not require to be a learned scholar. There are many so-called learned foolish scholars. It has no meaning. You just instruct what Kṛṣṇa has instructed. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So real instruction is there, Bhagavad-gītā, and any who explains Bhagavad-gītā as it is, he is guru. This is the definition of guru. So if one is fortunate enough to approach such guru, then his life becomes successful. Guru is essential.

Hayagrīva: He feels on the one hand philosophy has degenerated into exclusively…

Prabhupāda: Mental…

Hayagrīva: …intellectual and academic speculation.

Prabhupāda: …speculation. That is our opinion. They are simply mentally speculating. It has no value. Unless you are directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and assimilate the instructions given by Him, by all your reason, and then in practical life you execute it, then one can become guru, he can do good to others; otherwise not possible.

Hayagrīva: And on the other hand religion, the Christian religion which was understood in the Middle Ages, has become strange and unintelligible to the man of today.

Prabhupāda: It is because it is simply dogmatic. The preachers of the religion, they have no idea, clear idea, but officially they speak something. Neither he understands, neither he can make others to understand. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not such big thing. It is clear in every respect. Therefore this is the expected movement as Mr. Jung wanted. So every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate the human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

Hayagrīva: He characterizes the true religious man as one who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally that is the position. What we can decide? That there is already controller over me, so how I can be Absolute? No. Therefore everyone should depend on the supreme controller. That is called, technical language, it is called śaraṇāgati, full surrender. Full surrender. That is called śaraṇāgati.

Hayagrīva: He feels that the only thing that keeps modern man…, that will keep modern man from simply dissolving into the crowd is, he says, "We must ask, 'Have I any religious experience, an immediate relation to God and hence that certainty which will keep me as an individual from dissolving in the crowd of humanity?' " So one's relation with God assures one of one's individuality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is individual. God is also individual. So one individual is subordinate to the chief individual. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), God is also individual being, but He is the Supreme Being, and we are individual being, innumerable. So the difference is that the supreme living being is maintaining us, and we are being maintained. That we should understand. The same example as I gave, the father and the children in the family. The father is maintainer and the children are maintained. This is the real conception of philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God, and we are all children. We have got rights to enjoy the father's property, but not encroaching upon others', but as it is allotted by the father. "You sit down here, you take this, that's all," that, that much right I have got. I do not transgress the order of the father; then it is peaceful situation.

Hayagrīva: So that's the end of Jung. (end)

SKINNER & THOREAU.HAY

B. F. Skinner and Henry David Thoreau

Hayagrīva: This is B. F. Skinner. He's an American, contemporary American, and he's a behaviorist. He believes that technology can control people. Just as we can adjust the course of a spaceship, the environment can shape the individual, and therefore it is up to us to control the environment.

Prabhupāda: That is Vedic system, to control the whole mass of people in classification. The intelligent class, the administrative class, the productive class, and the worker class, and less than them, and in their respective position, if they cooperate for the common cause, that becomes a perfect society. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya… Therefore this system is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśrama, social order and spiritual order. The ultimate end is spiritual, but if the social order is not organized, then spiritual order is also disorganized. So there must be division of labor and activities. This is?

Hayagrīva: Skinner believes in what he calls reinforcement, reinforcing people's behavior. He doesn't believe in punishing people when they do wrong, but he believes more in a system of rewards. He writes, "A government may prevent defection by making life more interesting, by providing bread and circuses, and by encouraging sports, gambling, the use of alcohol and other drugs, and various kinds of sexual behavior, where the effect is to keep people within reach of adversive sanctions." So he…

Prabhupāda: He recommends these things?

Hayagrīva: So he believes that through…, by providing the people with sense gratification the government can keep people from acting in an antisocial way.

Prabhupāda: That means he is also of the same category. No, that will not help. Just like, the example is given in this connection, that when there is fire, if you think that putting more and more ghee the fire will extinguish, that is not possible. To keep the society in order they must be educated according to his capacity, and they should be engaged for common benefit. That is required. Not that to encourage them in their bad habits things will be done nicely. No. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva: He ultimately believes in bringing people under control. He says, "If there is any purpose or direction in the evolution of a culture, it has to do with bringing people under the control of more and more of the consequences of their behavior."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Human life is meant for control. That is the Vedic process, tapasya, because the aim is spiritual perfection. If we allow material activities according to the desire of the people, then they forget spiritual identity altogether. So that aim of life in the human form of body is missing, that Vedic civilization is how to raise one to the spiritual platform. Otherwise he remains an animal. First of all we must know what is the aim of life, and then the question of organization. If you do not know what is the aim of life, material adjustment will not make the condition of the society very good. (break ?)

Hayagrīva: His most famous book was Walden II, which was… Thoreau lived in Walden, Henry Thoreau. He lived alone. It was a solitary experiment of plain living and high thinking. He writes, "We practice the Thoreauvian principle of avoiding unnecessary possessions." Thoreau pointed out that the average Concord laborer worked ten or fifteen hours of his…, fifteen years of his life just to have a roof over his head. We could say ten weeks and be on the safe side. Food is plentiful and healthful but not expensive." So he goes on to say that "We strike for economic freedom, we do not believe in unnecessary consumption, we consume less than the average American." So it's an attempt to construct a society somewhat similar to New Vrindaban, with the exception of no spiritual basis as such.

Prabhupāda: That is primitive life, jungle life. Monkey civilization. Of course they claim to be descendant of monkey, that they will go on like that. But that is not human civilization, to keep the monkey in the jungle. We want life, very peaceful life without any unnecessary, what is called, necessities. That is all right. But the aim should be spiritual perfection. Therefore the first thing is what is the aim of life, that should be ascertained. Without aim, if you lounge on this ocean, where you are going? That is useless attempt. We must first of all know what is the aim of life. These people, they do not know what is the aim of life. Simply, superficially they are trying to adjust, "This will be done, this will be done." No. These are all mental speculation. First of all you must know what is the aim of life, and to this, to that direction, we have to adjust things. That is perfection.

Hayagrīva: He writes, "Walden II isn't a religious community. It differs in that respect from all other reasonably permanent communities of the past. We don't give our children any religious training, though parents are free to do so if they wish." Then he goes on to say that "The simple fact is the religious practices which our members brought to Walden II have fallen away little by little like drinking and smoking." He says, "We have no need for formal religion, either as ritual or philosophy."

Prabhupāda: He has no need of religion? Does he say like that?

Hayagrīva: That's what he says.

Prabhupāda: So without religion, without spiritual ideas, then what is the difference between dogs and man? There is no difference. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the verdict of Vedic civilization. If you do not know what is the spiritual necessity of life, and for awakening his spiritual interest of life the religious system is introduced in the human society… But in that, of course so-called religion system will not help. Therefore we repeatedly say religion means the execution of the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, no conception, no idea what is God's order, then there is no religion also. That is not religion. So that kind of religion is also, can be neglected, but religion must be there. Otherwise the human society becomes another edition of the animal society.

Hayagrīva: Well, his conception of religion is that of the…, having, playing some music, and uh, daliance with the supernatural, intellectual aesthetic enjoyment. He says, "What else does organized religion provide?" Religion is a form of, sort of enjoying art.

Prabhupāda: No. Art is there, and singing is there, dancing is there, but that is based on spiritual conception. That is the difficulty in the Western countries, that they are not fully aware of the conception of religion. Therefore Bhāgavata says that cheating religion, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ. There is no purpose, simply a recreation of different nature in material life. That is, means, they do not know, except sense gratification, any other engagement. They think religion is also another kind of, type of sense gratification, "So we can perform it." And actually that is going on. Whenever there is some festival they change the daily way of life into some more eating, drinking, and dancing, like that. But religion means to understand God and our relationship with God and live in God practically. That is real religion. That is the aim of life.

Hayagrīva: In Walden II he advised women to get married at about the age of sixteen so that by the time she's twenty-two or twenty-three a girl will be finished with bearing children, and then she can be on an equal par with men, or her role can then be equal and she can devote her time to other interesting prospects.

Prabhupāda: What is that interesting prospects? That he doesn't know.

Hayagrīva: Well, uh, he mentions, oh, working together, types of work, all, all types of work are shared equally. Family ties are discouraged. Children are generally held in common. People can live the good life, and he defines, "The good life means the chance to exercise talents and abilities. And we have let it be so. We have time for sports, hobbies, arts and crafts, and, most important of all, the expression of that interest in the world which is science in the deepest sense, an exploration of nature. Last of all, the good life means relaxation and rest." So the, the woman would be able to participate in the good life when she's finished bearing children at the age of twenty-three or whatever.

Prabhupāda: They are, difficulty, that is missing, that what is their ideal life, what is the aim of life. So he is prescribing so many things. That will not help the human society. And women, about women, this idea that (s)he should be married at sixteen years old, that is good, but it is not that women stops child breeding by the twenty-two years age. No. There are many women and they can beget children in, in advanced age. I, so far personally I know, my mother was the youngest daughter, and she was born when my grandmother was fifty years old. So it is not that the woman stops child begetting at the age of twenty-two years age. Nowadays up to thirty years, twenty-five years, woman, woman is married, so how he, she can stop?

Hayagrīva: Well, he wouldn't say stop. He says, "A young couple will live quite as well together whether married or unmarried. Sex is no problem in itself. Here the adolescent finds an immediate and satisfactory expression of his natural impulses." So since the children are held in common, marriage…, you may get married if you like, but it's not required.

Prabhupāda: Children?

Hayagrīva: The children are held in common. They are not… They don't acknowledge any particular, particular parent.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: He feels his society is a society of what we call "do your own thing." That is, he doesn't really condemn anything. He says, "What's wrong with love or marriage or parenthood? What's unwholesome about sex? Why make unnecessary problems, unnecessary delays?" The idea is to simplify everything and to get rid of all the impediments to an enjoyable life.

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is that enjoyable life. He cannot define, definitely, what is that enjoyable life. He is simply hankering after it. That is natural. But he does not know definitely what is that enjoyable life.

Hayagrīva: As close as he comes to a definition of it, he says, "We simply arrange a world in which serious conflicts occur as seldom as possible, or, with a little luck, not at all."

Prabhupāda: What does it mean? Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's trying to make an ideal arrangement where no conflicts come about.

Prabhupāda: That is materially impossible.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Unless you come to the spiritual platform, that is not possible at all. But he has no idea of the spiritual life. But these dreams are there because everyone is spiritual being, so he wants that ideal society. But because he has no spiritual idea or aim, he is simply putting some program which is almost Utopia. It will never be possible.

Hayagrīva: He feels that Walden II should be a community without a leader, that uh…

Prabhupāda: He wants to become leader.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is the idea.

Hayagrīva: The man who's setting up the community.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. He is suggesting that "You make me leader." That is the…

Hayagrīva: This sounds very familiar.

Prabhupāda: Everyone says, "Don't accept leader. Accept me as leader, that's all." But our proposal is that the, without leader nothing can be done. And the supreme leader is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and His representative should become leader. Then the society will be perfect. The supreme leader is God. So He gives instruction, and real leader takes the instruction by disciplic succession, and for the benefit of the total human society they spread the message of God. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Without leader nothing can be done. Even if he says that without leader, he is, that preaching is also leadership. So why people should accept his leadership if there is no need of leader?

Hayagrīva: This was the position of Mr. Rose, who started to try to, try a community at, where we have New Vrindaban now. The man we initially bought New Vrindaban from. This was his position: "No leaders." But it turned out that he wanted to be the leader.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Who is that gentleman?

Hayagrīva: Mr. Rose. You met him once, I recall.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He is not initiated?

Hayagrīva: Oh, no, no. He lives in West Virginia.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. In the beginning.

Hayagrīva: In the very beginning.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, I met him. He came with another gentleman.

Hayagrīva: That's right. His, his theory of, of death, he says, "When I die I shall cease to exist in every sense of the word. As a personal figure I shall be as unidentifiable as my ashes." No belief in immortality at all.

Prabhupāda: So why he is anxious to philosophize? If everyone is going to be finished, then why he is philosophizing? What did he…, why he is taking so much trouble? That is the difficulty-this class of men accepted as philosopher.

Hayagrīva: Oh, he became very popular through this book. I don't know how.

Prabhupāda: Oh, if you prescribe such nonsense book, everyone will like it. (laughs) [break]

Hayagrīva: This is the conclusion of B. F. Skinner. He felt that the goal is to improve the world and then man. He believes that "Now, as never before, man can lift himself up by his own bootstraps, and achieving control of the world of which he is a part, he may learn at last to control himself."

Prabhupāda: That man attempted first of all to control the world?

Hayagrīva: First control the world…

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Hayagrīva: …and then you can control yourself. That's his theory.

Prabhupāda: If he…, if one cannot control himself, how he will control the world? How it is possible?

Devotee: Backwards.

Hayagrīva: Ultimately he feels that man has no duty. "It is reasonable to look forward to a time when man will seldom have anything to do, although he may show interest, imagination and productivity."

Prabhupāda: Imagination, if he thinks like that, that our society will be perfect on imagination, then what he can say? This is childish. That is going on practically. Everyone is coming, a leader like him, and he is trying to make some followers of his own imagination. That is going on.

Hayagrīva: He, he believed…

Prabhupāda: He has got imagination. He believes in his own imagination. So others can believe in his own imagination. So who is going to follow him? He, he has to remain satisfied with his imagination. I mean, everyone has got imagination. Why he should, one should follow him?

Hayagrīva: Like, like Aldous Huxley, he feels that if happiness isn't possible through not doing anything, in the not too few dis…, in the not too distant future, the motivational and emotional conditions of normal daily life will probably be maintained in any desired state through…

Prabhupāda: He can probably, perhaps…

Hayagrīva: …through the use of drugs.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he is advocate of drugs.

Hayagrīva: Any emotional state you wish to be in, you can put yourself in that emotional state by simply taking a pill.

Prabhupāda: And put the society in chaotic condition then.

Hayagrīva: In this way society can be controlled, through the use of drugs.

Prabhupāda: Who will control?

Hayagrīva: Well he doesn't believe in any leaders.

Prabhupāda: Then who will control? Society controlled without any controller? What is the meaning?

Rāmeśvara: It's a type of communism, where the people work together in a communal way.

Prabhupāda: How they will work together? They require Lenin, Stalin, or something like that, to force them to work. Still, in Communist country there are manager class. Not only worker class, the manager class. So this is all utopian theory. It has no practical value.

Hayagrīva: In the United States all of the successful utopian communities have had a strong religious leader.

Prabhupāda: Leader must be there, religious or not religious. Everyone has leader. The Communist has got leader, and the spiritualists, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have also leader. So without leader nothing can be done. They may defy leadership, they may defy authority, but one who defies authority, he wants to become authority. So this is natural. Without leader nothing can be done.

Hayagrīva: That's the end of B. F. Skinner. (end)

Song Purports

660330PU.NY

Purport to Bhajahū Re Mana

New York, March 30, 1966

Prabhupāda: This is a song which a devotee is praying and asking his mind, bhajahū re mana. Mana means mind. Because, at the present moment, our mind is the driver, and this body is just like a car… In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. This body is a car made of this material nature. The living entity, what is said, "I," I am now seated on this car prepared by the nature, material nature. And the driver is the mind. And the driver is not in my control. The driver is taking me anywhere he likes. You see? I am… Personally, I am not able to drive. I have engaged one driver, which is called the mind, and this body is the car, and the mind is carrying me like driver anywhere it likes. So therefore the proprietor, I, I am, I am requesting the driver… When I am helpless, so I am requesting, "My dear mind," bhajahū re mana, "my dear mind…" Mana means mind. "You kindly worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Śrī-nanda-nandana. Śrī-nanda-nandana means Lord Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared as the son of Vasudeva, and He was accepted by Nanda Mahārāja as his, what is called? Son who is accepted from others? So he, he was His foster father. So he's reques… "I am requesting that you worship Lord Kṛṣṇa who is abhaya-caraṇa." Abhaya-caraṇa means He's the fearless shelter. If we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, then we become free from all anxieties. Just like a helpless child, when he's taken care of by his parents, he becomes careless, carefree, not careless, carefree. "Similarly, I am requesting, my dear mind, you do not drive in this way, dangerously. Please worship Lord Kṛṣṇa who is fearless shelter." Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana-abhaya-caraṇāravinda re: "His lotus feet is fearless shelter." One who takes shelter… As the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now, either you say Kṛṣṇa or you say Superconsciousness… Superconsciousness is impersonal conception of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is personal conception of Superconsciousness. Because Kṛṣṇa means He's not only superconscious, but He's supreme bliss and supreme knowledge-supreme knowledge means superconsciousness-and eternal, supreme consciousness, supreme bliss. That is the definition of Kṛṣṇa. Now, then the devotee says that durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge taroho e bhava-sindhu re. Now, this body, this human body, is durlabha. Durlabha means very valuable. It is obtained with, after a great struggle of existence. We have to come through so many species of life: aquatics, birds, then trees, then reptiles, then beasts… There are so many, so many. There are eighty-four lakhs, means 8,400,000 species of life, and we had to pass through by gradual evolution. This theory is accepted by Darwin also, evolutionary theory. So this human body is very valuable. So he requests, "My dear mind,…" Mind, of course, in the lower animal life the mind is there also. Also mind is not developed, but they have got mind. It is a… In the very lower animal living condition, the mind is not at all developed, but at least, in animal life there is mind. Now, the devotee requesting that "This life, this human form of life, is very valuable. Don't waste it. Don't waste it, but you just to make your life successful in the association of saints and sages."

Woman: What?

Prabhupāda: Saints. Saints. S, A, I, N, T, S. Saints and sages.

Woman: No, no.

Prabhupāda: You have no saint?

Girl: Saints and sages, S, A, I,…

Woman: Saints?

Prabhupāda: Saints.

Woman: Oh, saints and sages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Saints and sages. Yes. "So you should not make association with anybody else, but you make your association only with saints and sages and make your, this valuable human form of life successful. Don't waste your time. You worship Lord Kṛṣṇa with the help of the saints and sages and make your life successful." That he is requesting. "Don't drive in this irresponsible way to put me into the ocean." And it is also requested that "We are just like in the ocean of birth and death." This material cosmic situation is sometimes explained as the ocean, and these planets, they are explained as islands. And actually, they are islands in the air. Just like we have got islands in the sea and ocean, similarly, these planets are islands in the air, air islands, so many planets.

So he says that durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge tara e bhava-sindhu re. Bhava-sindhu. Bhava-sindhu means this cosmic situation where birth and death is going on continually, one after another. "So you stop this business of repeated birth and death. You make your this human form of life successful and get release from this disease of birth and death." Birth and death is a sort of disease for the living entities. It is not the normal condition. Due to our this abnormal encagement in the material body, we are put into the birth and death. Otherwise, I am not subjected to birth and death. I am eternal. I am eternal. So he is requested that "Don't waste your time, my dear mind." Because mind is taking me here and there. So he's requesting mind. It is very philosophical. This is concentration, requesting the mind, "Don't put me into the ocean of birth and death. Please save me, and just make your life successful in the association of saints and sages. That is my request." Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana. So worship, worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa or the Supreme Lord, and, at the same time, association of saints and sages, that makes our life successful. Association of good persons and, at the same time, simultaneously, devotional service to the Lord. These two things combinedly can make our life successful.

Woman: How do you call devotion to the Lord?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Lord… We worship Kṛṣṇa, the symbol of Supreme Consciousness. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kleśa adhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām. If you take up impersonal, simply consciousness, then you have to pass through difficult process, but if you accept the symbol, Kṛṣṇa, the symbol of Supreme Consciousness, that will be easier for you. Yes. It is said. So Kṛṣṇa… I can concentrate my mind. I can focus my mental activities in the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Because He is Supreme Consciousness, therefore automatically I concentrate on the Supreme Consciousness. So

bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana-

abhaya-caraṇāravinda re

durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge

taroho e bhava-sindhu re

Then he says that "What I am doing? What is my present occupation?" The present occupation is:

śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa

e dina jāminī jāgi re

biphale sevinu kṛpaṇa durajana

capala sukha-laba lāgi' re

He says that "I am working hard, day and night. And there is no question of winter or summer or rainy season. I have to work hard, day and night. If there is night duty in the winter season, I have to join my office at twelve o'clock at night. So I must go. There is snowfall. If I don't go, then I'll be absent. So I am working so hard, very hard.'' Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa, jāminī jāgi re. "And what for I am working?'' Now, biphale sevinu kṛpaṇa durajana: "Just to serve persons who cannot protect me, who cannot protect me.'' We think that my wife, or my husband, or my children, or my relatives, or my friends, and, oh, so many we have got, relationship with this material world And everyone is working to satisfy his relatives. A family man is working so hard because he has to satisfy his wife, children, friends and so many other persons. But one should be conscious that "These friends and relatives, they cannot protect me ultimately. They are Neither I can protect them, nor they can protect me.'' You see? Everyone responsible. Everyone is responsible for his own activities. Besides that Now, suppose if I am constructing a high building, skyscrapers, just like you have got very good experience in this country, if somebody asks me that "Why you are building so high building? What is the reason?'' And if I answer, "Just to set fire it it.'' Then the, the man will laugh, "You, simply for setting fire, you are spending so much money and building this high building for setting fire?'' "Yes.'' So this sort of answer is just like in our present activities. Now, of course, you take the dead bodies to the crematorium and, I mean to say, put into the grave. But India In India, of course, there is graveyard for the Muhammadans and the Christians. But the Hindus, they burn the dead body. They burn the dead body. You see? In the Bhāgavata also, these three system are recorded, that the ultimate transformation of this body will be either ashes, stool or earth.

Woman: Earth…

Prabhupāda: Earth…

Woman: Stool…

Prabhupāda: Stool, or ashes. How it is? Now, because after death, persons who burn the dead body, that is turned into ashes. This body, this beautiful body, will be turned into ashes. And those who bury in the graveyard, that will turn into… Oh, that is air. Don't disturb yourself. That is the air. If we bury in the ground, gradually the body will turn into earth. And according to Iranian system, the body is thrown to the vultures. They eat it. So that will be turned into animal stool. You see? So that is the last stage of this body. So everyone knows that everyone will die. Still, we are working so hard. We are making our bank balance, we are just making will and papers just to give protection to our family or to our children, and there is no time. Everyone is very busy, very busy. But he does not see that "All these, what I am doing, all these body ultimately become either ash or animal stool or turn into earth. So why I am taking so much trouble?" Therefore the revealed scripture advises that "You have to maintain your body. That's all right. But for simply material comforts, you should not devote time more than it is absolutely required." That means don't increase your bodily necessities. Don't increase your bodily necessities. That was the standard of Indian civilization. They did not, the sages and saints, they did not advise to increase the necessities of the body. They, I mean to say, planned the social system in such a way that people should be satisfied only for, by the bare necessities of life. We require some eating, we require some sleeping, or shelter place, and we require some sense gratification, and we require some protection from enemies. Yes? Come. Ah hah! Ah ah haha, ah hah! Come in. Come in. (end)

661105PU.NY

Purport to Brahma-saṁhitā

Verses 32 and 38

New York, November 5, 1966

(Prabhupāda sings)

Prabhupāda: This verse is particularly important because it describes the significance of sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. The Lord's body is sac-cid-ānanda. His body is not like ours. Our body is acit and…, asat, acit and nirānanda, just the opposite. Asat means it will not exist, and acit means it is full of ignorance and nirānanda… Nirānanda means full of miseries. These three qualification of our body, whereas the Lord's body is sac-cid-ānanda, it is eternal and full of knowledge and full of bliss. Our body and our self… My body and my self are different. But Lord and Lord's body is Absolute. What is Lord, Lord's body is also the same. So that description is given here. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti [Bs. 5.32]. The Lord is not impersonal. He has got his form. And what sort of form? We should not consider that whenever there is a question of form, the form must be just like one of us. This is foolishness. Now, His form is completely different, just like we have explained. His form is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], and our, this present material body is asat, acit and nirānanda. Just completely different. So His form, His different parts of the body, described in the Vedas, apāṇi-pādo javano grahītā paśyati… "He has no hands and legs; still, He accepts all that you offer to Him.'' In the Bhagavad-gītā also we'll find that

patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ

yo me bhaktyā prayacchati

tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam

aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ

[Bg. 9.26]

"My devotees…" God is not… The Lord is not in need of our offering, but still, He is so kind, if we offer Him something… Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. Not that we have to offer him very luxurious things, very high valuable things. He says that even a piece of leaf, patraṁ, a piece of flower, patraṁ puṣpam, a piece of fruit and little water… That means these four things can be secured by any poor man in any part of the world. There is no botheration for securing a piece of leaf, a piece of flower or a little water or a piece of fruit. Any poor man, any rich man, can secure. And the Lord says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "Anyone who offers Me these four things with devotion, with love, I accept them. I accept them." Why? Now, tad ahaṁ bhaktyā upahṛtam aśnāmi. "Because that is secured with sincere love for Me." The Lord accepts our love. Now, the Lord is… You cannot see Him. He is far, far away, and still, He is within us. Therefore His hands is not like our hands. The Vedas… When the Vedas describes, "The Lord has no hands," that means He has no hand like ours, not that a two-feet hands which we have got, or two or three-feet hands, not this hand. His hand is so large that He can extend His hand in any part of His creation, millions and billions miles away, and everywhere. That is the specific significance of His body. So this is described here.

aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti

paśyanti pānti kalayanti ciraṁ jaganti

ānanda-cinmaya-sadujjvala-vigrahasya

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.32]

And another special significance of the parts of His body, limbs or hands or legs, eyes, ears… What is that significance? Now, each part of His body has got all the potencies of other parts of the body. Just like with our eyes we can simply see. But the Lord, He can not only see by His eyes, transcendental eyes, but He can also hear, He can also eat. All the… All the functions of all other parts of the body, He function by any part of His body, not that a particular part of the body can function only for a particular purpose, no. Just like simply by glancing… In the Vedic literature it is said, sa aikṣata sa asṛjata: "Simply by seeing, simply by seeing, He impregnated all the energies for creating, simply by seeing." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Simply by His glance. Simply by His glance He impregnates the material energy for functioning. It is going on. So He has got all the potencies in all the parts of His body. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti paśyanti pānti kalayanti [Bs. 5.32]. That is the difference between His body and our body. So when there is description in the Vedas that "He has no leg, no hand, no eyes, "that does not mean He has no eyes. He has got eyes, but not these eyes just like we have got conception. So here it is explained that aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti [Bs. 5.32]. His parts of the body are invested with all the potencies of other parts of the body. With any part of His body He can function any work.

(Sings Brahma-saṁhitā, verses 32-35, 37, 38, 29) Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Now, people say that "Whether God can be seen? If anyone has seen God?" Yes, God can be seen. There is no doubt about it. But it requires some qualifications. Not some, but only one qualification. God is so kind that He does not require any material qualification. He does not require that you should be very learned man, very beautiful, or very rich man, or a king or emperor or minister or president, no, nothing of the sort. You can be anything. But only one qualification required. Then you can see God. What is that qualification? (Sings:) Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. That qualification is unalloyed love. That's all. One who has achieved that unalloyed, unalloyed love for God… Unalloyed love means without any tinge of philosophical speculation or fruitive activity. That's another subject. It requires great explanation. But unalloyed love means without any tinge of material color. (indistinct) That is called unalloyed. Even philosophical speculation or fruitive activities, if it is offered to the Supreme Lord, that is not love. Love is above this. So if one can achieve that unalloyed love for God, with that, I mean to say, magic wand, the eye becomes eligible for seeing God. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. And that, that eye, is called devotional eye, devotional. We have to… Not only eyes, but every part of our body, we have to spiritualize by the contact. By the contact of spiritual service in devotion of the Lord, we can gradually spiritualize our whole act of senses. Just like a iron rod put into the fire. Gradually the temperature rises. It becomes warm, warmer, warmest, very hot, then red hot. When it is red hot, then it is no longer iron; it is fire. Similarly, by our contact in devotional service of the Lord we can change the whole position of our material existence. And we have… If we have developed to that state of unalloyed love for God, then God can be seen twenty-four hours, not that once seen and again not seen. No. This is described here, that santaḥ, the great devotees, unalloyed devotees, who are liberated souls, have no connection with material activities or philosophical speculation, such unalloyed devotees, because their eyes are smeared with the ointment of love only, therefore they can see the Lord sadaiva, always, twenty-four hours. (Sings Brahma-saṁhitā, verses 38, 39, 29, 40, 41.) (end)

670316PU.SF

Purport to Bhajahu Re Mana

San Francisco, March 16, 1967

Prabhupāda: Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana-abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. Bhaja, bhaja means worship; hu, hello; mana, mind. The poet Govinda dāsa, a great philosopher and devotee of the Lord, he is praying. He is requesting his mind, because mind is the friend and mind is the enemy of everyone. If one can train his mind in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he is successful. If he cannot train his mind, then life is failure. Therefore Govinda dāsa, a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa… His very name suggests, Govinda dāsa. Govinda, Kṛṣṇa, and dāsa means servant. This is the attitude of all devotees. They always put, affix this dāsa, means servant. So Govinda dāsa ms praying, "My dear mind, please you try to worship the son of Nanda, who is abhaya-caraṇa, whose lotus feet is secure. There is no fear." Abhaya. Abhaya means there is no fear, and caraṇa, caraṇa means lotus feet. So he is advising his mind, "My dear mind, please you engage yourself in worshiping the fearless lotus feet of the son of Nanda." Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana. Nanda-nandana means a son of Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa. And His lotus feet is abhaya, fearless. So Govinda dāsa is requesting his mind, "Please be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa." So far other things are concerned…

And he says also that durlabha mānava-janama. Durlabha means very rare to obtain. Mānava-janma means this human form of life. It comes after a very long rotation. Once chance is given to become Kṛṣṇa conscious so that one may get out of the cycle of birth and death. Therefore he advises that this life, this human form of life, is very important, durlabha. Durlabha means… Duḥ means with great difficulty, and labha means obtainable. So foolish people, they do not know what, how much important this human form of life. They are simply wasting in sense gratification like animals. So this is very instructing, that he is training his mind that "You engage your mind in the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa." Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge. And this training of the mind is possible only in good association, sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga means persons who are simply, cent percent, engaged in the service of the Lord. They are called sat. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Without association of devotees, it is impossible to train the mind. It is not possible by the so-called yoga system or meditation. One has to associate with devotees; otherwise it is not possible. Therefore we have formed this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society so that one may take advantage of this association. So Govinda dāsa, poet and devotee, is advising, durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge: "You have got this very nice, rare human body. Now associate with devotees and engage your mind on the fearless lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa." He is requesting his mind.

Then he is pointing out the frustration of life. What is that? Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa e dina jāminī jāgi re. Śīta means winter. Ātapa means summer, when there is scorching sunshine. Śīta ātapa bāta, cold, bariṣaṇa, torrents of rain. So these disturbances are always there. Sometimes it is severe cold. Sometimes it is scorching heat. Sometimes there is torrents of rain. Sometimes this or that is going on. So he says, śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa e dina jāminī jāgi re. Whole day and night, people are working very hard without caring, severe cold, severe heat, and torrents of rain, and keeping night, going to the desert, going underneath the sea-everywhere they are so busy. Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa e dina jāminī jāgi re. There is night duty and so many other engagements. So he says,

śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa

e dina jāminī jāgi re

biphale sevinu kṛpaṇa durajana

capala sukha-laba lāgi' re

"Now, with all this hard labor, what I have done? I have served some persons who are not at all favorable to my Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And why I have served them?" Capala sukha-laba lāgi' re: "Capala, very flickering happiness. I think if my small child smiles, I will be happy. I think if my wife is pleased, I think I am happy. But all this temporary smiling or feeling of happiness, they are all flickering." That one has to realize. There are many other poets also, similarly have sung that this is…, this mind is just like a desert, and it is hankering after oceans of water. In a desert, if a ocean is transferred, then it can be inundated. And what benefit can be achieved there if drop of water is there? Similarly, our mind, our consciousness, is hankering after ocean of happiness. And this temporary happiness in family life, in society life, they are just like drop of water. So those who are philosophers, those who have actually studied the world situation, they can understand that "This flickering happiness cannot make me happy."

Then he says, kamala-dala-jala, jīvana talamala. Kamala-dala-jala means the lily, lily flower. You have all seen lily flower on the lakes. They are tottering, always in the water. Tottering. Any way, any time, it can be overflooded. Similarly, this life is full of danger always, always in danger. Any moment it can be finished. There are so many instances. People look it, but they forget. That is the wonderful thing. They are seeing every day, every moment, that he is himself in danger, others are in danger. Still, he is thinking that "I am secure.'' This is the position. So life is very tottering and in dangerous position. Therefore one should take advantage of this human form of life and immediately engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That should be the request of everyone to his mind, "My dear mind, don't drag me in the dangerous position. Please keep me in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.'' Thus Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how it can be achieved, that is also being described by Govinda dāsa. He says,

śravaṇa, kīrtana, smaraṇa, vandana,

pāda-sevana, dāsya re,

pūjana, sakhī-jana, ātma-nivedana

govinda-dāsa-abhilāṣa re

Abhilāṣa means aspiration, hope, or ambition. He is ambitious of becoming a devotee in nine different ways. The first thing is śravaṇa. Śravaṇa means hearing. One has to hear from authorities. That is the beginning of spiritual life or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Arjuna. He achieved his spiritual consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by hearing from Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, one has to hear from Kṛṣṇa or from the representative of Kṛṣṇa. One who presents Kṛṣṇa's words as it is-from him one has to hear because at the present moment we have no opportunity to hear directly. To hear directly from Kṛṣṇa is there. The arrangement is there. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and one can hear from Him very easily, anywhere and everywhere, but he must have the training how to hear. For that purpose one requires the help of the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that one can achieve devotional service of Kṛṣṇa by the combined mercy of Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. By the grace of spiritual master, guru, and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one achieves the opportunity of serving Kṛṣṇa in devotional service. So in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is also said that spiritual master is the direct manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa comes before the devotee as spiritual master just like sun enters your room by the sunshine. Although the sun does not enter your room or your city or your country-he is so many millions and millions of miles away-still, he can enter everywhere by his potency, the sunshine. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa enters everywhere by His different potencies. And to receive this light from Kṛṣṇa, one has to hear. Hearing is so important. Therefore Govinda dāsa says, śravaṇa. Śravaṇa means hearing. And one who has heard nicely, his next stage will be kīrtanam. Just like our boys who have heard a little nicely, now they are very eager to chant, going from street to street. This is natural sequence. It is not that you hear, but you remain stopped. No. The next stage will be kīrtanam. Either by chanting vibration or by writing or by speaking or by preaching, the kīrtana will be there. So śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam, first hearing and then chanting. And hearing and chanting about whom? About Viṣṇu, not for any nonsense. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. These things are stated in the śāstra. The ordinary people, they are also engaged in hearing and chanting. They are hearing in the newspaper of some politician, and the whole day they are discussing and chanting, "Oh, this man is going to be elected. This man is going to be elected.'' So hearing and chanting is there everywhere. But if you want spiritual salvation, then you have to hear and chant about Viṣṇu, nobody else. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. So the poet sings, Śravaṇa, kīrtana, smaraṇa, vandana, pāda-sevana, dāsya re. So there are different processes: hearing, chanting, remembering, worshiping in the temple, engaging oneself in the service. So he is desiring all nine kinds of devotional service. Ultimately, pūjana sakhī-jana. Sakhī-jana means those who are confidential devotees of the Lord, to please them. And ātma-nivedana. Ātmā means self, and nivedana means surrender. Govinda-dāsa-abhilāṣa. The poet's name is Govinda dāsa, and he expresses that his desires are only this. He wants to utilize the opportunity of his human form of life in this way. This is the sum and substance of this song. (end)

680106PU.LA

Purport to Gaurāṅga Bolite Habe

Los Angeles, January 5, 1969

Prabhupāda: This is a song sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. He says, "When that day will come, that I shall sing simply Lord Caitanya's name and there will be shivering on my body?" Gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka-śarīra. Pulaka-śarīra means shivering on the body. When one is factually situated in the transcendental platform, sometimes there are eight kinds of symptoms: crying, talking like a madman, and shivering of the body, dancing without any care for any other men… These symptoms develop automatically. They are not practiced artificially. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is aspiring for that day, not that one has to artificially imitate. That he does not recommend. He says, "When that day will come, so that simply by uttering the name of Lord Caitanya there will be a shivering on my body?" Gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka-śarīra. And hari hari bolite: "And as soon as I shall chant 'Hari Hari,' or 'Hare Kṛṣṇa,' there will be pouring down of tears from my eyes." Hari hari bolite nayane ba'be nīra. Nīra means water. Similarly, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said that "When that day will come?" We should simply aspire. But if, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, that stage we can reach, these symptoms will come automatically. But Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that it is not possible to reach that stage without being freed from material affection.

Therefore he says, āra kabe nitāi-cander, koruṇā hoibe: "When that day will come when Lord Nityānanda's mercy will be bestowed upon me so that…'' Viṣaya chāḍiyā Āra kabe nitāi-cander koruṇā hoibe, saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be. Saṁsāra-bāsanā means the desire for material enjoyment. Saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be: "When my desire for material enjoyment will be insignificant, nonimportant.'' Tuccha. Tuccha means a thing which we calculate no value: "Throw it away.'' Similarly, spiritual advancement is possible when one is convinced that "This material world and material happiness is no value. It cannot give me any real bliss of life.'' This conviction is very much necessary. Saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be. And he also says that "When I shall be free from the desires of material enjoyment, then it will be possible to see the real nature of Vṛndāvana.'' Viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana: "When my mind will be completely purified, uncontaminated from the material contamination, at that time it will be possible for me to see what is Vṛndāvana.'' In other words, one cannot go to Vṛndāvana by force and live there, and he will achieve that transcendental bliss. No. One has to make his mind freed from all material desires. Then one can live at Vṛndāvana and relish its residential benefit. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that. Viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe, śuddha ha'be mana: "When my mind will be freed from the contamination of this material enjoyment and I shall be purified, then it will be possible for me to see Vṛndāvana as it is.'' Otherwise it is not possible.

And he says again that to go to Vṛndāvana means to understand the transcendental pastimes of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. How this will be possible? So he says, rūpa-raghunātha-pade hoibe ākuti. Rūpa, Rūpa Gosvāmī, beginning from Rūpa Gosvāmī down to Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, there were six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa, Jīva Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. So he says, rūpa-raghunātha-pade: "Beginning from Rūpa Gosvāmī down to Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī," pade, "in their lotus feet, at their lotus feet. When I shall be eager to be attached at their lotus feet…" Rūpa-raghunātha-pade, hoibe ākuti. Ākuti, eagerness. What is that eagerness? That means to understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa through the guidance of the Gosvāmīs. One should not try to understand Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa by his own effort. That will not help him. As these Gosvāmīs, they have given us direction, just like Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, so one has to follow step after step how to make progress. Then there will be a fortunate day when we shall be able to understand what is the pastimes or loving affairs between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if we take it as ordinary boy and girls reciprocating their loving feelings, then we will misunderstand. Then there will be the production of prakṛta-sahajiyā, victims of Vṛndāvana.

So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is giving us the direction, how one can reach the highest perfectional stage of associating with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. The first thing is that one should be very much attached to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That will lead us. Because He came to deliver the understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore one should first of all surrender to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By surrendering to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda Prabhu will be pleased, and by His pleasing, we shall be freed from material desires. And when material desires are no more, then we shall be able to enter Vṛndāvana. And after entering Vṛndāvana, when we are eager to serve the six Gosvāmīs, then we can reach the platform to understand the pastimes of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Yes. (end)

680717PU.MON

Purport excerpt to

Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Prabhu

Montreal, July 17, 1968

Prabhupāda: This is a prayer to Lord Caitanya. The devotee is saying, "O Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, kindly show me your causeless mercy." Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu dayā karo more. "Because You have come to deliver fallen souls, so You will not find the most fallen soul like me." This is the humble prayer. We should be conscious of our fallen condition and pray to the Lord in that way, that "My dear Lord, somehow or other I am fallen. Now kindly pick me up." The substance of this song is like this. Of course, the language, Sanskrit, you may understand…, you may not understand, but the vibration will act. (end)

681221PU.LA

Purport to Nitāi-Pada-Kamala

Los Angeles, December 21, 1968

Prabhupāda: Nitāi-pada-kamala, koṭi-candra-suśītala, je chāyāy jagata jurāy. This is a very nice song sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. He is advising that nitāi-pada, the lotus feet of Lord Nityānanda Kamala means lotus feet, er, lotus, and pada means feet. So Nitāi-pada-kamala means the lotus feet of Lord Nityānanda. Koṭi-candra-suśītala. It is just a shelter where you will get the soothing moonlight not only of one, but of millions of moons. Just we have to imagine what is the aggregate total value of the soothing shine of millions of moons. Koṭi-candra-suśītala, je chāyāy jagata jurāy. Jagat, this material world, which is progressing towards hell, and there is always a blazing fire, everyone is struggling hard, nobody finds peace. Therefore, if the world wants to have real peace, then it should take shelter under the lotus feet of Lord Nityānanda, which is supposed to be cooling like the shining moon, millions in number. Nitāi-pada-kamala, koṭi-candra-suśītala, je chāyāy jagata jurāy. Jurāy means relief. If you actually want relief from the struggle of existence and if you actually want to extinguish the fire of material pangs, then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura advises, "Please take shelter of Lord Nityānanda.'' What will be the result of accepting the shelter of the lotus feet of Lord Nityānanda? He says that heno nitāi bine bhāi: "Unless you take shelter under the shade of lotus feet of Nityānanda,'' rādhā-kṛṣṇa pāite nāi, "it will be very difficult to approach Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.'' Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for approaching Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, to be associated with the Supreme Lord in His sublime pleasure dance. That is the aim of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's advice is "If you actually want to enter into the dancing party of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, then you must take shelter of the lotus feet of Nityānanda."

Then he says, se sambandha nāhi jā'r. Sambandha means connection or contact. "So anybody who has not contacted a relationship with Nityānanda," se sambandha nāhi jā'r, bṛthā janma gelo tā'r, "then he is supposed to have spoiled his human birth." In other song also Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu: "Anyone who does not approach Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa through the relationship of Nityānanda, his life is uselessly spoiled.'' Se sambandha nāhi jā'r, bṛthā janma gelo tā'r. Bṛthā means useless, janma means life, tāra means his, and sambandha means relationship. "So anyone who has no relationship with Nityānanda, he is simply spoiling his, the boon of human form of life.'' Why he is spoiling? Se paśu boro durācār. Se means that; paśu, animal; durācār, dura, misbehaved, mostly misbehaved. Because without our elevation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness through the mercy of Lord Caitanya-Nityānanda, the life is simply animal propensities. That's all. Sense gratification. And Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that ordinary animal, he can be tamed, but a human being, when he is animalistic, when he has simply animal propensities, oh, he is horrible. He cannot be tamed. Ordinary cats and dogs, even tiger, can be tamed. But a human being, when he goes out of his way, because human life is meant for being elevated to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if he doesn't take to that, then his higher intelligence will be simply misused for animal propensities, and it is very difficult to tame him.

The enactment or state laws cannot make a man, a thief, an honest man because he cannot be tamed. His heart is polluted. Every man sees that a person committing criminal offense is punished by the government. And in scriptural injunction there is mention that "If you do this, you will be punished in the hell.'' He has heard from the scripture, and he has practically seen by the punishment of state laws. Still, he is not tamed. He cannot be tamed. So why? Because he hasn't got his relationship with Nityānanda. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, durācāra. Durācāra means very much misbehaved. He cannot be tamed. Sei paśu boro durācār. And what they are doing? Nitāi nā bolilo mukhe. They do not know who is Nityānanda, so never says "Lord Nityānanda,'' or "Lord Caitanya.'' So nitāi nā bolilo mukhe, majilo saṁsāra-sukhe. Majilo means becomes absorbed, dipped into the so-called material enjoyment. They don't care who is Nityānanda or Caitanya. So nitāi nā bolilo mukhe. Because his life is animalistic, sei paśu boro durācār, very difficult to be tamed, so he is going down, deep into this material existence.

Vidyā-kule ki koribe tār. Somebody may say, "Oh, why he is going to hell? He is so much educated, he has got academic qualification, he has got degrees." Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura replies, vidyā-kule ki koribe tār: "If he has no connection with Nityānanda and if he does not come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his vidyā or his so-called academic education, and kula, and birth in high family or great nation, will not protect him because nature's law will act. "Either you are born in a very big family or nation, or either you have got a very advanced academic education, at the time of death your work will be judged and you will get another body according to that work. So vidyā kule ki koribe tār. Why they are doing so, these animals, human animals? Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā: "They have become maddened by a false concept of the bodily life." Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā: "And for this reason they have completely forgotten their eternal relationship with Nityānanda." Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā, asatyere satya kari māni: "Such forgetful persons accept the illusory energy as fact." Asatyere. Asatya means which is not fact. In other words, it is called māyā. Māyā means which has no existence, a temporary illusion only. So such persons who have no contact with Nityānanda, they accept this illusion as fact, this illusory body as fact. Asatyere satya kori māni.

Then he says, nitāiyer koruṇā habe, braje rādhā-kṛṣṇa pābe. He says that "If you actually want to approach the association of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, then try to achieve the mercy of Lord Nityānanda. When He will be merciful upon you, then you will be able to approach Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.'' Dharo nitāi-caraṇa duḥkhāni. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura advises us that "You firmly catch the lotus feet of Lord Nityānanda.'' Then again he says, nitāiyer caraṇa satya. One may not misunderstand that as he has caught hold of this māyā, similarly, the lotus feet of Nityānanda may also be something like that māyā, illusion. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirms that nitāiyer caraṇa satya: "The lotus feet of Nityānanda is not illusion; it is transcendental fact, satya.'' Nitāiyer caraṇa satya, tāṅhāra sevaka nitya: "And eveyone who is engaged in the transcendental loving service of Nityānanda he is also transcendental.'' If anyone is engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately he achieves his transcendental position, spiritual platform. And spiritual platform means eternal, blissful. So anyone who engages himself in the service of Nityānanda, it is supposed that he is also immediately in his eternal position. Nitāiyer caraṇa satya, tāṅhāra sevaka nitya, nitāi-pada sadā koro āśa. Therefore he advises that "You always hope to catch the lotus feet of Nityānanda."

Narottama boro duḥkhī. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, the ācārya, he is taking for himself that "I am very unhappy." He is representing ourselves. He is liberated, but representing ourself. "My dear Lord, I am very unhappy." Nitāi more koro sukhī: "So I am praying Lord Nityānanda to make me happy." Rākho rāṅgā caraṇera pāśa: "Please keep me in some corner of your red lotus feet." (end)

681225pu.la

Purport to Prayers by King Kulaśekhara

Los Angeles, December 25, 1968

(This) verse was sung by King Kulaśekhara, a great king, and, at the same time, a great devotee of the Lord. His songs are recorded in the book known as Mukunda-mālā-stotra. That is very famous book. It is sung by many devotees. So it does not matter whether a man is king, or a poor mendicant. Everyone has the facility to become the greatest devotee of the Lord. So he's praying "My dear Kṛṣṇa, Your feet is lotus.'' Generally we say "Lotus feet". But where the lotus flower is there, the white swans, they come to the lotus flower and try to play with the stem. They sport, going down the water, and be entangled with the stem of that lotus flower. That is their sporting. So King Kulaśekhara is praying that "Let the swan of my mind be immediately entered into the network of the stem of Your lotus feet.'' So that means he wants to engage his mind on the lotus feet of the Lord immediately. There is no question of delaying. He says that "Now I am in sound mind. If I think that I shall think of Your lotus feet at the time of death, there is no certainty. Because, at the time of death, the whole body becomes dislocated. The whole function becomes dismantled."

The body's supposed to be conducted by three elements, kapha pitta vāyu, cold, and bile, and air. So when these three elements work simultaneously, there is no disease in the body, but, as soon as there is overlapping disruption of these three elements, the body becomes diseased. And when it is not possible to bring them again in their regulative principle, a man dies. That is the verdict of Āyurveda śāstra. So death takes place when these three elements become overlapped with one another. And the symptom is that there is a sound on the throat which is called: garhh, garhh. That means the patient cannot speak. The throat is choked up and he becomes suffocated and dies. So this is the last stage, symptom of his body.

So King Kulaśekhara says that "I cannot wait up to that time when everything will be topsy-turvied. Now my mind is sound. Let me enter immediately in the stem of your lotus feet.'' That means he's praying: "Let me die in the sound condition of my life so that I can think of your lotus feet.'' In other words, he's giving us lessons that if we do not practice to engage our mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa when our mind is sound, how it is possible to think of Him at the time of death? (end)

681226P2.LA

Spelling of Prayers to the Six Gosvāmīs

Los Angeles, December 26, 1968

Prabhupāda: K-r-i-s-h-n-o-t, kṛṣṇot. Then next word, kīrtana, k-i-r-t-a-n-a. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna, g-a-n-a. This "a" is strong "a", strong "a." Gāna. Strong "a" means "a" with hyphen. So I shall say, "strong 'a'." Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna, g-strong a-n-a, gāna. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana, n-a-r-t-a-n-a. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-para, p-a-r-a. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau, premam, p-r-e-m-strong a-m-r-i-t-a, premāmṛtam, a-m-b-h-o, ambho, nidhī, n-i-d-h-i-h. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī. (sings) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī. The meaning: kṛṣṇotkīrtena, "loudly chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa," kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna, "in musical sound, in songs, with music," kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana, nartana means "dancing, chanting and dancing," parau, "always engaged," kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī, "and dipped into the ocean of ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa." (sings) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī. Next line: dhīra, d-h-i-r-a, strong a, dhīra. Dhīra, d-h-i-r-a. One is dhīra, another is dhīra. Dhīrādhīra-jana, j-a-n-a, jana. Dhīrādhīra-jana. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. P-r-i-y-a-u. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priyakarau, p-r-i-y-a-k-a-r-a-u, priyakarau. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priyakarau nirmatsarau, n-i-r-m-a-t-s-a-r-o-u, nirmatsarau, pūjitau, p-u-j-a-t-o-u. So second line is dhīra, "those who are gentle, sober," and adhīra… Adhīra means "those who are not gentle, ruffians." So they were, by chanting these songs of kīrtana, where dhīrādhīra, "both to the gentle and to the ruffians," priyau, "dear, equally dear and popular to both classes of men," not that they were simply popular to the gentle class, but even the ruffian class also loved them. Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priyakarau. Priya-karau means they were doing things which is very pleasant to everyone. Nirmatsarau. Nirmatsarau means without any enviousness, no discrimination, that "Kṛṣṇotkīrtana or the songs, saṅkīrtana, shall be given to the gentle class of men, not to the ruffians." No. They were equally kind and merciful, without any enviousness. Priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau. Pūjitau means worshipable, adored by everyone. (sings) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau. Next line: śrī-caitanya, s-r-i c-a-i-t-a-n-y-a, śrī caitanya, kṛpā-bharau, k-r-i-p-a-b-h-a-r-o-u, kṛpā-bharau, śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau, bhuvi, b-h-u-v-i, bhuvi, bhuvau, b-h-u-v-o-u, bhuvi bhuvau. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo. Vande, v-a-n-d-e, r-u-p-a, rūpa, sanātanau, s-a-n-a-t-a-n-o-u, sanātanau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau. R-a-g-u-h-y-u-g-o-u. Raghu-agau. Vande-rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva, s-r-i j-i-v-a, śrī-jīva, gopālakau, g-o-p-a-l-a-k-o-u. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāva-hantārakau, b-h-a-r-a-b-a, hantārakau, h-a-n-t-a-r-a-k-o-u. (sings) Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāva-hantārakau vande rūpa-santanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. So śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau: "They were so kind and merciful because they actually received the blessings and mercy of Lord Caitanya." Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi. Bhuvi means "on this world, on this earth." And bhuvo. Bhuvo means "on this earth," bhuvo, and bhuvi, "they became." Bhuvi bhuvo, bhārāva-hantārakau. Bhara, b-h-a-r-a, bhara means burden. Hantārakau, "just to take out the burdens." When people become too much sinful, the earth becomes overburdened, and just to make it lighter… If it becomes too much heavy, then it will fall down. So these great souls, they come to make it lighter. Bhārāva-hantārakau, vande rūpa. "Oh, you are so kind." So therefore vande: "I offer my respectful obeisances," rūpa, lord…, not lord. Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī and two Raghunātha Gosvāmīs. There are two Raghunāthas. And Jīva Gosvāmī and Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī. Vande-rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. (sings)

kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī

dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau

śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bhārāva-hantārakau

vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau

Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. (end)

681226PU.LA

Purport & Explanation to Hari Hari Biphale

Los Angeles, December 26, 1968

Pradyumna: Hari hari biphale, janama…

Prabhupāda: Goṅāinu. G-o-y-a-i-n-u. [Bengali phonetic spelling sometimes does not match the BBT standard diacritics used for Bengali. Ed. note]

Pradyumna: Gowanu.

Prabhupāda: Goṅāinu.

Pradyumna: Goṅāinu.

Prabhupāda: Biphale, janama goṅāinu. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. Goṅāinu.

Pradyumna: Goṅāinu. Goṅāinu?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So shall I give the meaning also?

Pradyumna: Afterwards, I guess. Oh, this is the first verse? Hari hari biphale, janama goṅāinu.

Prabhupāda: Janama goṅāinu. This is first line. Hari hari biphale, janama goṅāinu. The next line: manuṣya-janama pāiyā. M-a-n-u-s-y-a.

Pradyumna: Manuṣya.

Prabhupāda: Janama. J-a-n-a-m-a. Pāiyā, p-a-i-y-a.

Pradyumna: Pāiyā.

Prabhupāda: Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā. Next line. R-a-d-h-a, Rādhā, Kṛṣṇa, K-r-i-s-h-n-a, nā bhajiyā, n-a, nā, bhajiyā, b-h-a-j-i-a, nā bhajiyā. Next line, jāniyā, j-a-n-i-a, jāniyā.

Pradyumna: J-a?

Prabhupāda: N-i-a. Śuniyā, s-u-n-i-a. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa, b-i-s-a, biṣa.

Pradyumna: Biṣa?

Prabhupāda: B-i-s-a. Khāinu, k-h-a-i-n-u.

hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu

manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā,

jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu

The meaning is, Hari Hari, "My Lord,'' biphale, "uselessly,'' janama, "life,'' goṅāinu, "spent up. I have uselessly spent up my life.'' Why? Because manuṣya-janama pāiyā, "I got this human form of life,'' manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, "but I did not engage myself in the loving transcendental service of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa.'' Rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "Willingly, purposefully, I have drunk poison.'' Hari hari biphale, janama goṅāinu.

Pradyumna: Tell it for each word. Jāniyā means?

Prabhupāda: Jāniyā means knowingly, and śuniyā means hearing.

Pradyumna: Hearing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Two kinds of knowledge are there. You can practically understand by experiment. This is called jāniyā. And another knowledge is by hearing from authoritative source. That is also knowledge. Jāniyā śuniyā "By hearing process and by experimental knowledge, in both ways, I know that this human form of life is meant for engaging in the loving service of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, but I did not do that. That means purposefully I have drunk poison. I have committed suicide.'' Then golokera prema-dhana, g-o-l-e… No. G-o-l-o-k-e-r-a, golokera. Prema,

p-r-e-m-a, prema. Dhana, d-h-a-n-a. Golokera prema-dhana. That means: "This chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa, is imported from the transcendental abode of Goloka." Hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. "This chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, this is not material vibration. This sound is…" What is called? Captured? Just like we capture sound. The sound is in the air. So this sound… There are different layers of air, but this sound is in the highest layer, in the transcendental, spiritual layer, beyond this material world. From that sound it is captured. It requires strong machine to capture that sound. Golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana.

Pradyumna: Hari-nāma-saṅ…

Prabhupāda: H-a-r-i-n-a-m-a, hari-nāma, saṅkīrtana, s-a-n-k-i-r-t-a-n-a. Hari-nāma saṅkīrtana. Rati nā janmila. R-a-t-i, n-a, nā, janmila, j-a-n-m-i-l-a. Rati nā janmila kena, k-e-n-a, tāi, t-a-i. "It is so sublime, transcendental, and it is imported from the transcendental world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Unfortunately, I do not know why I did not get any attachment for such nice thing." Rati nā janmila kene tāi. Tāi means "in that." Biṣaya biṣānale. B-i-s-a-y-a, biṣaya. Biṣa, b-i-s-a, biṣa, nale, n-a-l-e.

Pradyumna: Biṣa?

Prabhupāda: Biṣa, b-i-s-a, nale, n-a-l-e. Biṣānale. The blazing fire of poison. The material enjoyment is blazing fire of poison. "Just like a person, if he is put into the blazing fire, he is burned into ashes, similarly, simply by thinking, 'How I shall enjoy this? How I shall enjoy this materially?' This is just like blazing fire of poison. So I am suffering always." Biṣaya biṣānale dibā-niśi hiyā jvale. Dibā-niśi, d-i-b-a, dibā-niśi. Dibā means day, and niśi, niśi means night. "So day and night I am in this blazing fire."

Pradyumna: Neśi? How do you spell that?

Prabhupāda: Niśi, n-i-s-i.

Pradyumna: Dibā n-i-s-i, dibā-niśi.

Prabhupāda: Hiyā, h-i-a, hiyā, jvale, j-a…, j-v-a-l-e.

Pradyumna: J-v-e-l-e.

Prabhupāda: J-v-a-l-e. Dibā-niśi hiyā jvale: "The heart is burning always, day and night." Tarivare. T-a-r-i v-a-r-e, tarivare. Tarivare means "to get out of it."

Pradyumna: Can you spell that again?

Prabhupāda: Tarivare? T-a-r-i v-a-r-e.

Pradyumna: Vire?

Prabhupāda: R-e, tarivare.

Pradyumna: Tarivare.

Prabhupāda: Nā kainu. N-a, nā, kainu, k-a-i-n-u, nā kainu, upāya, u-p-a-y-a, upāya. Tarivare means "to get out of it,'' nā kainu, "did not do.'' Nā means "not,'' kainu, "did not do.'' Nā kainu upāya. Upāya means "means.'' That means "If anyone wants to get out of this blazing fire of poison of material enjoyment, then he has to take to this hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana, this chanting. That is the only method. So I did not do that. I engaged myself in this viṣaya viṣānale, this material enjoyment. Therefore my life has been uselessly spoiled. Tarivare nā kainu upāya. The next line, vrajendra-nandana yei. V-r-a-j-e-n-d-r-a, vrajendra, nandana, n-a-n-d-a-n-a, yei, y-a-i.

Pradyumna: Jia.

Prabhupāda: Jai. Vrajendranandana yei, śacī-suta, s-a-c-h-i-s-u-t-a, śacī-suta, haila, h-a-i-l-a, haila, sei, s-a-i, sei. Vrajendra-nandana yei, śacī-suta haila sei, balarāma haila nitāi. B-al-a-r-a-m-a, balarāma, haila, h-i, h-a-i-l-a. Haila, h-a-i-l-a, nitāi, n-i-t-a-i, haila nitāi. Balarāma haila nitāi. And this means… Vrajendra-nandana yei: "The Supreme Personality who appeared as the son of King Nanda, the same Supreme Personality Kṛṣṇa has now appeared as the son of mother Śacī." And Balarāma, b-a-l-a-r-a-m-a; haila, haila means "has become;" Nitāi, "Lord Nityānanda." "Formerly the Personality of Godhead who was known as Balarāma has now become Lord Nityānanda." So what is their business? Pāpī tāpī yata chilo. P-a-p-i, t-a-p-i, pāpī tāpī, yata, y-a-t-a, yata chilo, c-h-h-i-l-a.

Pradyumna: C-h-h-i-l-a?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pāpī tāpī yata chilo, hari-nāme, uddhārilo. H-a-r-i, hari, nāme, n-a-m-e, nāme, uddhārilo, u-d-d-h-a-r-i-l-a. That means "These two Personality of Godhead, they, simply by distributing the transcendental chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa, has reclaimed all conditioned and sinful souls." Pāpī tāpī yata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. "And the concrete example for this activity is Jagāi and Mādhāi, the two brothers known by Jagāi-Mādhāi.'' J-a-g-a-i, Jagāi and Mādhāi, M-a-d-h-a-i. Pāpī tāpī yata chilo, hari nāme uddharilo, tā'ra sākṣī, tā'ra sākṣī. T-a-r, sākṣī, s-a-k-s-h-i, sākṣī, jagāi and mādhāi. And then last verse is hā hā prabhu nanda-suta, h-a-h-a, hā hā, prabhu, p-r-a-b-h-u, prabhu, nanda-suta, n-a-n-d-a-s-u-t-a. "My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, son of King Nanda…" Vṛṣabhānu-sutā-yuta. V-r-i-s-a-b-h-a-n-u, vṛṣabhānu, sutā, s-u-t…

Pradyumna: V-s… Vṛṣa?

Prabhupāda: Vṛṣabhānu, b-h-a-n-u.

Pradyumna: B-h-a-n-u.

Prabhupāda: Vṛṣabhānu-sutā, s-u-t-a. Sutā-yuta, y-u-t-a. That means "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, the son of King Nanda, You are now along with Rādhārāṇī, the daughter of King Vṛṣabhānu. So both of you are here. So I am Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura." Narottama, N-a-r-a-t-t-a-m-a, Narottama, dāsa, d-a-s-a, dāsa, kahe, k-a-h-e. "I am Narottama dāsa. I am placing my appeal unto You." Narottama dāsa ka…, nā theliho. N-a, theliho, t-h-e-l-i-a. Nā theliho. Rāṅgā, r-a-n-g-a, rāṅgā, pāye, p-a-y-e. Nā theliho rāṅgā pāye. Tumi binā, t-u-m-i, tumi, vinā, v-i-n-a.

Pradyumna: T-u-m-e?

Prabhupāda: T-u-m-e, tumi, vinā, v-i-n-a, ke, k-e, āche, a-c-h-h-e, āche, ke āche.

Pradyumna: C-h-…

Prabhupāda: H-e.

Pradyumna: A-s-c-h…

Prabhupāda: No. A-c-h-h-e. Āmār, a-m-a-r. "So who else is there beyond yourself? So don't kick me out by Your lotus feet. Please accept me because I have no other shelter than Yourself." Is that…? (end)

681228PU.LA

Purport Excerpt to Śrī Śrī Śikṣāṣṭakam

Los Angeles, December 28, 1968

Prabhupāda: (chants first four verses) Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu instructed His disciples to write books on the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A task which those who follow Him have continued to carry out down to the present day. The elaboration and exposition on the philosophy taught by Lord Caitanya are in fact the most voluminous, exacting, and consistent, due to the unbreakable system of disciplic succession of any religious culture in the world. Yet Lord Caitanya in His youth widely renowned as a scholar Himself, left us only eight verses called Śikṣāṣṭaka.

Glories to the śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years together. Thus the fire of conditioned life, of repeated birth and death is extinguished. This saṅkīrtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge, it increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it helps to have a taste of the full nectar for which we are always anxious. Second verse. Oh my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction upon the living beings and therefore You have hundreds and millions of names like Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, etc. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies and there is no hard and fast rule for chanting these holy names. Oh my Lord, You have so kindly made approach to You easy by Your holy names, but unfortunate as I am, I have no attraction for them. Three. One can chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself lower than the straw in the street, more tolerant than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige, and ready to offer all respects to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly. (end)

681229PU.LA

Purport to Gaurāṅga Bolite Habe

Los Angeles, December 29, 1968

Prabhupāda: This song was sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a great devotee-ācārya in the disciplic succession of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava Sampradāya. Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava Sampradāya means the disciplic succession who are coming down from Lord Caitanya. So this Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has written many songs, and it is recognized as a authority by all the Vaiṣṇavas. He has sung the songs in simple Bengali language, but the purport and the deep meaning of the song is very significant. He says: gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka-śarīra. This is the perfection of chanting, that as soon as we chant or take the name of Lord Gaurāṅga, who initiated the Saṅkīrtana Movement, at once there will be a shivering in the body. So it is not to be imitated. But Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is recommending when that opportune moment will come to us, that as soon as we shall chant Lord Gaurāṅga's name, there will shivering in the body. And, after the shivering, hari hari bolite nayane ba'be nīr, by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa there will be tears in the eyes. Then again he says āra kabe nitāicand koruṇā karibe. We are all asking about the mercy of Lord Nityānanda. Nityānanda is supposed to be the original spiritual master. So we have to approach Gaurāṅga, or Lord Caitanya, through the mercy of Lord Nityānanda. So what is the symptom of a person who has achieved the causeless mercy of Lord Nityānanda? Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that one who has actually received the causeless mercy of Nityānanda, he has no more any material desire. That is the symptom. Āra kabe nitāicand koruṇā karibe saṁsāra-vāsanā mora kabe tuccha. Saṁsāra-vāsanā means desire for material enjoyment, when it will become very insignificant. Of course, so long we have got this body we have to accept so many things, material. But not in the spirit of enjoyment, but to keep up the body and soul together. So…

And he says further: rūpa-raguṇatha-pade haibe ākuti. When I shall be very much eager to study the books left by the Six Gosvāmīs. Ākuti means eagerness. One Because Rūpa Gosvāmī is the father of this devotional service. He has written that book, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. In that book there is nice direction. Of course, in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and other books we have given the summary of those direction in our book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So one has to learn the conjugal loving affairs of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa through the teachings of these Six Gosvāmīs. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura giving us the direction that you do not try to understand the conjugal love of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa by your own endeavor. You should try to understand by the direction of the Gosvāmīs. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings [break] …Narottama

rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti

kabe hāma bujhaba śrī yugala-pīriti

Yugala-pīriti means conjugal love. And another he sings that viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana. This mind, so, so, so long the mind is too much absorbed in materialistic thought, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Vṛndāvana. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says: viṣaya śuddha kabe śuddha ha'be mana. When my, my mind will be completely purified, being freed from material anxieties and desires. Then I shall be able to understand what is Vṛndāvana, what is conjugal love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and then my spiritual life will be successful. (end)

681231PU.LA

Spelling of Ārati Song

Los Angeles, December 31, 1968

Pradyumna: Jāhnave. Next one.

Prabhupāda: Jāhnave. Jāhnavī. Jāhnavī means the Ganges.

Pradyumna: Taṭa.

Prabhupāda: Taṭa, bank.

Pradyumna: Vane.

Prabhupāda: Of the forest.

Pradyumna: Jaga-jana.

Prabhupāda: Jaga means of the world, and jana means people.

Pradyumna: Mana.

Prabhupāda: Mana means mind, heart.

Pradyumna: Lobhā.

Prabhupāda: Attractive. This means "The ārātrika ceremony which is going on on the bank of the Ganges to receive Lord Caitanya is so beautiful that it is attractive to the people of the world, all people of the world." Jaga-jana-mana-lobhā. Mana… "Attractive to the mind of all people of the world."

Pradyumna: Kibā.

Prabhupāda: Kibā again, the same thing, "hello."

Pradyumna: Hello. Bosiyāchen

Prabhupāda: Bosiyāchen, is seated.

Pradyumna: Is seated. Gauracand is Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Ratna?

Prabhupāda: Ratna means jewels.

Pradyumna: Siṁhāsane.

Prabhupāda: On the throne.

Pradyumna: "Come see Lord Caitanya seated on the jeweled throne"?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Ārati koren.

Prabhupāda: Ārati means the arati, reception. Koren, doing. Brahma, Lord Brahma. Ādi, headed by. Deva-gaṇe, all the demigods. that means "To offer ārati reception to Lord Caitanya, all the demigods have come down, headed by Lord Brahma." Ārati koren brahmā-ādi deva-gaṇe.

Pradyumna: Kibā, hello. Dakṣine?

Prabhupāda: Dakṣine, on the right side.

Pradyumna: Nitai.

Prabhupāda: Lord Nityānanda.

Pradyumna: Cand? Cand.

Prabhupāda: Cand, Nitāicand. His name, Nityānanda's, means Nitāicand. Yes.

Pradyumna: Bāme.

Prabhupāda: Bāme, on the left side. This is Nityānanda on the right side, and that is Gadādhara on the left side.

Pradyumna: Nikaṭe.

Prabhupāda: Nikaṭe, near by.

Pradyumna: Advaita Prabhu.

Prabhupāda: Here is Advaita Prabhu.

Pradyumna: Śrīvāsa.

Prabhupāda: Śrīvāsa, there, another Lord's devotee. Śrīvāsa.

Pradyumna: Chaterjra.

Prabhupāda: Chatra-dhara. Chatra-dhara means he is bearing the umbrella.

Pradyumna: Śrīvāsa is?

Prabhupāda: Śrīvāsa, you know? Śrīvāsadi-gaura-bhakta. He is the chief devotee of Lord Caitanya. Śrīvāsa. He is Śrīvāsa.

Pradyumna: So it says, "Nearby, Advaita Prabhu and Śrīvāsa are bearing an umbrella."

Prabhupāda: That means Advaita Prabhu is nearby, and Śrīvāsa is also nearby, and Śrīvāsa is bearing the umbrella on the head of Lord Caitanya.

Pradyumna: Śaṅkha. Kibā śaṅkha.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkha. Śaṅkha means the conchshell.

Pradyumna: Conchshell?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Bāje.

Prabhupāda: Bāje. Śaṅkha bāje means bugling, or what is it. Sound, make sound. What do you call?

Pradyumna: Trumpet? Bugle or trumpet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. trumpeting. Trumpeting. The conchshell.

Pradyumna: Sounding. It's called. You sound.

Prabhupāda: Sounding, yes. Sounding the conchshell. Śaṅkha bāje. Bāje means sounding. Yes.

Pradyumna: Ghaṇṭā.

Prabhupāda: Ghaṇṭā, bells. Different kinds of bells are also ringing.

Pradyumna: Bāje, sounding, ringing.

Prabhupāda: Ringing.

Pradyumna: Bāje karatāla.

Prabhupāda: Karatāla, cymbal, this is also being sounded, all together.

Pradyumna: Madhura mṛdaṅga.

Prabhupāda: And the madhura, with sweet mṛdaṅga. You know, mṛdaṅga.

Pradyumna: Madhura means street?

Prabhupāda: Sweet.

Pradyumna: Sweet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The mṛdaṅga vibration is very sweet.

Pradyumna: Bāje, sounding. Śunitai?

Prabhupāda: Śunite, to hear.

Pradyumna: Rasāla.

Prabhupāda: Rasāla, very relishable. All these sounds together, when vibrated, they are very relishable to hear. So make typed copies nicely, with diacritic mark, hard "a," and explain. And the sound is there, repeat. If you practice two, three days, it will be all right. Everyone will be able to sing, and it will be very nice.

Pradyumna: It's very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything will come out nice, beautiful. (break-Prabhupāda sings mahāmantra in morning tune, also mixing the words) Like that. I asked you not to sit down before Deity like that. You should always sit very respectfully. This is to be practiced. So these words can be mixed in a different way to make the sound palatable. That's all. Just repeat. The Hare Kṛṣṇa is there, but in a different way. That's all. (end)

690102PU.LA

Purport to Śrī-Śrī-Gurv-aṣṭakam

Los Angeles, January 2, 1969

Prabhupāda:

saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-

trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam

prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

This song is offering obeisances particularly to the spiritual master, and the symptoms of the spiritual master are described in this prayer. The spiritual master has two kind of symptoms in his activities. One kind is called constant, and other kind is called temporary. So the first verse says that the constant symptom of the spiritual master is that he can deliver his disciples from the blazing fire of this material existence. That is the eternal qualification of spiritual master. Trāṇāya means for deliverance, and kāruṇya means compassionate, very merciful. The spiritual master comes to the deliverance of the fallen souls out of his causeless mercy. Nobody has any business for the sufferings of others. The best example is Lord Jesus Christ, that he suffered for others. And it is the principle in the Bible that he accepted all the sins of others. This is the sign of spiritual master, that he voluntarily accepts the sinful activities of others and delivers them. That is the qualification of spiritual master. How it is? Just like ghanāghanatvam. Ghanāghanatvam means dense cloud in the sky. The first example has been said, that this material existence is just like forest blazing fire. Now, to extinguish the forest blazing fire, there is no use of sending fire brigade. The fire brigade cannot approach the forest fire; neither any man can go there to extinguish the fire. One has to depend completely on the mercy of nature. That means one has to completely depend on the cloud in the sky. Otherwise, there is no question of pouring water on that blazing fire. So the example is very appropriate. As man-made engine or fire brigade is unable to extinguish the forest blazing fire, similarly, the material existentional blazing fire cannot be extinguished by any man-made method.

They are planning to be very comfortable in this material existence, but they are still more being confused and failure. That peace movement, that United Nation movement, everything is failure. Why? These miseries of this material existence cannot be stopped by any material means. One has to take shelter of spiritual means. Just like the blazing fire in the forest has to wait for the cloud in the sky, similarly, one has to wait for the merciful cloud as the spiritual master. That is described. Trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya **. So the spiritual master is not self-made. It is not that if anyone comes before you and bluffs you that "I have attained spiritual perfection, and I have realized something by some method.'' No. The spiritual master, bona fide spiritual, means he has to receive the power from authority. Otherwise it is useless. No It is not that one can become spiritual master overnight. He has to take the power from his spiritual master. Therefore it is called prāptasya. Prāptasya means one who has obtained, one who has got the merciful blessings of his spiritual master.

We should always remember that the spiritual master is in the disciplic succession. The original spiritual master is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He blesses his next disciple, just like Brahmā. Brahmā blesses his next disciple, just like Nārada. Nārada blesses his next disciple, just like Vyāsa. Vyāsa blesses his next disciple, Mādhvācārya. Similarly, the blessing is coming. Just like royal succession-the throne is inherited by disciplic or hereditary succession-similarly, this power from the Supreme Personality of Godhead has to receive. Nobody can preach, nobody can become a spiritual master, without obtaining power from the right source. Therefore the very word, it is stated here, prāptasya. Prāptasya means "one who has obtained." Prāptasya kalyāṇa. What he has obtained? Kalyāṇa. Kalyāṇa means auspicity. He has received something which is auspicious for all the human kind. Prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya. Here is another example. Guṇārnava. Arṇava means ocean, and guṇa means spiritual qualities. Just like the same example is going on. It is very nice poetry. There is nice rhethorics and metaphor. The example is set, blazing fire, and it is to be extinguished with the cloud. And wherefrom the cloud comes? Similarly, wherefrom the spiritual master receives the mercy? The cloud receives his potency from the ocean. Therefore the spiritual master also receives his power from the ocean of spiritual quality, that is, from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya. Such kind of spiritual master, one has to accept, and vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam, and one has to offer his respectful obeisances to such authorized spiritual master. (end)

690104PU.LA

Purport to Parama Koruṇa

Los Angeles, January 4, 1969

Prabhupāda: Parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana, nitāi gauracandra. This is a song by Locana dāsa Ṭhākura, a great devotee and ācārya of the Gauḍīya-sampradāya. He is declaring that pahū dui jana. Pahū means lords. Dui jana means two. Who are the two lords? Nitai Gauracandra. One is Lord Nitāi, Nityānanda; another is Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he says that "These two Lords are very merciful.'' Parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana. Parama koruṇa means very merciful. Nitai Gauracandra. Saba avatāra, sāra śiromaṇi. Avatāra means incarnation, and saba means all. "They are the essence of all incarnations.'' Saba avatāra, sāra śiromaṇi, kevala ānanda-kanda: "And the specific significance of these incarnations is that to prosecute their ways of self-realization is simply joyful,'' ānanda-kanda. They introduced chanting and dancing. No other incarnation There are many incarnation, just like Lord Rāma. Even Kṛṣṇa, He taught Bhagavad-gītā. That requires knowledge, understanding. But here Lord Caitanya, Nityānanda, introduced some process which is simply joyful: simply chant and dance. Kevala ānanda-kanda. Saba avatāra, sāra śiromaṇi, kevala ānanda-kanda.

Therefore he requests everyone, bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi: "My dear brothers, I request you. Just you worship Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda.'' Sudṛḍha biśwāsa kori': "With firm conviction and faith.'' Don't think that this chanting and dancing will not lead you to the desired goal. It will because there is assurance of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu that you will get all perfection by this process. Therefore Locana dāsa Ṭhākura says that "You must have firm faith and conviction.'' It will act. Bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi, sudṛḍha. Sudṛḍha means firm. Biśwāsa kori', with faith and conviction. But what is the process? The process is viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā. If you want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious under that process, then you have to give up your engagement of sense gratification. That is the only restriction. You cannot do that. Then it will be very nice. If you give up sense gratification and come to this stage, then it is sure that you will reach to the desired goal. Viṣaya chāḍiya, se rase majiyā, mukhe bolo hari hari: "And you have to simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, 'Hari Hari,' that's all, without any motive of sense gratification.''

Dekho dekho bhāi, tri-bhuvane nāi. He says, "My dear brothers, you just try and examine that within these three worlds there is nobody like Lord Caitanya or Nityānanda Prabhu.'' Because, paśu pākhī jhure, pāṣāṇa vidare: "Their mercy and qualities are so great that even birds and beasts, they are crying, what to speak of human being?'' Actually, when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu passed through the forest of Jhārigrāma, the tigers, the elephants, the snake, the deer, all joined Him in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is so nice. Anyone can join. Animals can join, what to speak of human being? Of course, it is not possible for ordinary man to enthuse animals to chant, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu did it actually. So even if we cannot enthuse animals, we can enthuse at least human being to this path of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting. Paśu pākhī jhure, pāṣāṇa vidare. And it is so nice that even the most stonehearted men will be melted. Pāṣāṇa vidare. Pāṣāṇa means stone, and vidare. Pāṣāṇa, even stone, will melt. It is so nice. But he regrets that, viṣaya majiyā: "Being entrapped by sense gratification…'' Viṣaya majiyā, rohili bhuliyā. He's addressing himself, "My dear mind, you are entrapped in the sense gratification process and you have no attraction for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.''

Viṣaya bhuliyā, rohili majiyā, se pade nahilo āśa: "You have no attraction for the lotus feet of Caitanya-Nityānanda. So what can I say? It is only…'' Āpana karama, bhuñjāya śamana: "I can simply think of my misfortune only that Yamaraja, the superintendent of death, he is punishing me in this way, that he is not allowing me to be attracted to this movement.'' This is the statement of Kahoye locana-dāsa: "This is the statement of Locana dāsa Ṭhākura.'' (end)

690106PU.LA

Purport to Gaurāṇgera Duṭi Pada

Los Angeles, January 6, 1969

Prabhupāda: Gaurāṅgera duṭi pada, yāra dhana sampada, sei jāne bhakati-rasa-sāra. This is another song composed by Narottama das Ṭhākura, and he says that "One who has accepted the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya, in other words, one who has the only asset of possession, the two feet of Lord Caitanya, such person is supposed to know what is the essence of devotional service." Sei jāne bhakati-rasa-sāra. What is the purport of devotional service, or what is the humor of devotional service, can be understood by a person who has accepted Lord Caitanya's lotus feet as everything. The idea is that actually Lord Caitanya, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, and He is teaching devotional sevvice to the living entities personally. Directly. Therefore the modes of devotional service, as taught by Lord Caitanya, is the most perfect. There cannot be any doubt. The expert, or the master, is teaching the servant how to work. If a… If somebody is master of some engineering work and he is personally teaching some assistant, that teaching, instruction, is most perfect. Similarly, Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, in the role of a devotee, is teaching devotional service. Therefore the path chalked out by Lord Kṛṣṇa is the most feasible way for perfection to devotional service. Sei jāne bhakati rasa sāra. Sāra means essence.

And then he says, gaurāṅgera madhuri-līlā, yāra karṇe praveśilā. Now he comes to the pastimes of Lord Caitanya. He says that "Lord Caitanya's pastimes are also as much transcendental as Lord Kṛṣṇa's." As in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that anyone who can simply understand the transcendental appearance, disappearance, activities, work of Kṛṣṇa, he immediately becomes eligible to enter into the kingdom of God. Simply by understanding the pastimes and the work, transcendental activities of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, one who enters into the pastimes of Lord Caitanya, he immediately becomes freed from all contamination of the heart. Gaurāṅgera madhuri-līlā, yāra karṇe praveśilā. Karṇe praveśilā means simply one has to receive the message of Lord Caitanya. Karṇe means in the ear. To give the message a submissive aural reception. Then immediately one's heart becomes freed from all material contamination.

Then he says: yei gaurāṅgera nāma laya, tāra haya premodaya. Now, the devotees are concerned how to develop love of Godhead. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura recommends that anyone who simply chants śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda…'' Gaurāṅga means with all this paraphernalia. As soon as we speak of gaurāṅga, we should mean the five: Lord Nityānanda, Advaita, Gadādhara, and Śrīvāsa. All together. So yei gaurāṅgera nāma laya, anyone who chants, immediately he will develop love of Godhead. Yei gaurāṅgera nāma laya, tara haya premodaya, tāre mui jaya bole hari. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says "I offer him all congratulation.'' Because it is certain that he has developed love of Godhead. Then he says, gaurāṅga-guṇete jhure, nitya-līlā tāre sphure. Anyone, if he cries by simply by hearing the transcendental qualities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he at once understands what is the loving affairs between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa.

Nitya-līlā means the pastimes, or the loving exchange, affairs between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, that is eternal. That is not temporary. We should not think that Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa pastimes, loving affairs, is just like the business of a, of a young boy or girl, as we see in this material world. Such loving affairs is not at all loving affairs. They are lusty affairs, and they are not eternal. Therefore they break. Today I am in love with somebody and next day it breaks. But Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā is not like that. It is eternal. Therefore that is transcendental and this is temporary. So simply one who is absorbed in the pastimes of Lord Caitanya, he can immediately understand what is the actual position of the loving affairs of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Nitya-līlā tāre sphure. Sei yaya rādhā-mādhava, sei yaya vrajendra-suta pāśa. And simply by doing that, he becomes eligible to enter into the abode of Kṛṣṇa. Vrajendra-suta. Vrajendra-suta means the son of Nanda Mahārāja in Vṛndāvana. He's sure to go to associate with Kṛṣṇa in his next birth.

Gaurāṅgera saṅge-gaṇe, nitya-siddha boli māne. Anyone who has understood that the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are not ordinary conditioned souls… They are liberated souls. Nitya-siddha bole māni. There are three kinds of devotees. One is called sādhana-siddha. Sadhana-siddha means by following the regulative principles of devotional service, if one becomes perfect, he's called sādhana-siddha. Another devotee is called kṛpā-siddha. Kṛpā-siddha means even if he has not followed strictly all the regulative principle, still, by the mercy of ācārya or a devotee, or by Kṛṣṇa, he is elevated to the perfectional stage. That is specially. And another devotee is called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means they were never contaminated. The sādhana-siddha and kṛpā-siddha was contaminated by material touch, and by following regulative principles or by the mercy or grace of some devotee and ācārya they're elevated to the perfectional state. But nitya-siddha means they were never contaminated. They're ever liberated. So all the associates of Lord Caitanya, just like Advaita Prabhu, Śrīvāsa, Gadādhara, Nityānanda, they are Viṣṇu-tattva. They are all liberated. Not only they, the Gosvāmīs… There are many others. So they are ever-liberated. So one who can understand that the associates of Lord Caitanya are ever-liberated… Nitya-siddha bale māni, sei yaya vrajendra suta-pāśa. Immediately he becomes eligible to enter into the abode of Kṛṣṇa.

And then he says, gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi, yebā jāni cintāmaṇi. A… The gaura-maṇḍala means the place in West Bengal wherein Lord Caitanya had His pastimes. In Navadvīpa, during Lord Caitanya's birth anniversary, the devotees go and circumambulate different places of Lord Caitanya's pastimes. It takes nine days. So that portion of Bengal is called gauḍa-maṇḍala. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "One who understands that there is no difference between this part of the country with Vṛndāvana," tāra haya vraja-bhūmi vāsa, "it is as good as one lives in Vṛndāvana." Then he says, gaura-prema rasārṇarve. Lord Caitanya's activities is just like an ocean of loving affairs of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore one who takes a dip into this ocean, gaura-prema-rasārṇave, sei taraṅga yebā ḍube. Just like we take a dip and bath, and we play, sport, in the waves of the ocean or sea. Similarly, one who takes pleasure, taking a dip and sporting with the waves of the ocean of Lord Caitanya's distribution of love of God, such a person becomes immediately a confidential devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Sei rādhā-mādhava-antaraṅga. Antaraṅga means not ordinary devotee. They are confidential devotee. And Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, gṛhe vā vanete thāke. "Such devotee, who is taking pleasure in the waves of Lord Caitanya's movement," because he has become a very confidential devotee of the Lord…

Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "Such devotee, it doesn't matter whether he's in the renounced order of life or whether he is a householder." Gṛha. Gṛha means householder. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement does not say that one has to become a renounced order, sannyāsī. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, impersonalists, Śaṅkarācārya, they first, they put the first condition that "You take up the renounced order of life first, and then talk of spiritual advancement." So in Śaṅkara sampradāya nobody is accepted as bona fide impersonalist unless he has accepted the renounced order of life. But here, in Caitanya's movement, there is no such restriction. Advaita Prabhu, He was a householder. Nityānanda, He was householder. Gadādhara, He was also householder. And Śrīvāsa, he was also householder. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also married twice. So it doesn't matter. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that to become in renounced order of life, or to remain in householder life, that does not matter. If he is actually taking part in the movements of Caitanya's saṅkīrtana activities and actually understanding what it is, he is taking sport in the waves of such devotional ocean, then such person is always liberated. And Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is aspiring his association ever increasingly. That is the sum and substance of this song. (end)

690107PU.LA

Purport to Bhajahū Re Mana

Los Angeles, January 7, 1969

Prabhupāda: Bhajahū re mana, śrī-nanda-nandana-abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. This is a song composed by Govinda dāsa, a great poet and Vaiṣṇava. He says, addressing his own mind Because mind is the center of all elevation. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that if you have your mind controlled, then your mind is the best friend. But if your mind is uncontrolled, then he is your greatest enemy. So we are seeking after friend or enemy. So both of them are sitting with me. If we can utilize the friendship of the mind, then we are elevated to the highest perfectional stage. But if we create mind as my enemy, then my path to hell is clear. Therefore Govinda dāsa Ṭhākura, he is addressing his mind. The yogis try to control the mind by different gymnastic process. That is also approved. But it takes a long time, and sometimes there are failures. In most cases they are failures. Even a big yogi like Viśvāmitra, he also failed, what to speak of these teeny and nonsensical yogis.

So Govinda dāsa advises that "You just engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then mind becomes automatically controlled.'' If the mind has no chance of being engaged in any other business except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he cannot become my enemy. It is automatically my friend. That is the instruction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. Lord, King Ambarīṣa, he first of all engaged his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. So similarly, here also, Govinda dāsa Ṭhākura, he is asking his mind: "My dear mind, you just engage yourself to the lotus feet of abhaya-caraṇāravinda.'' Abhaya-caraṇāravinda. That is the name of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Abhaya means fearless. If you take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa then you immediately become fearless. So he advises "My dear mind, you just engage yourself on the service of the lotus feet of Govinda.'' Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana. He does not say "Govinda.'' He addresses Kṛṣṇa as "the son of Nanda Mahārāja.'' "Because that lotus feet is fearless, you will have no more any fear from the attack of māyā."

"Oh, I have got to enjoy so many things. How can I fix up my mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa?'' Then Govinda dāsa advises, "No, no.'' Durlabha mānava-janma. "You don't waste your life in that way. This human form of life is very rare. Out of many, many thousands and millions of births, you have got this opportunity.'' Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge. "Therefore don't go anywhere. You just associate with pure devotees.'' Taraha ei bhava-sindhu re.'' Then you shall be able to cross of the ocean of nescience.'' "Oh, if I engage my mind always in Kṛṣṇa, then how I shall enjoy my family, my other paraphernalia?'' So Govinda dāsa says, ei dhana yauvana. "You want to enjoy your wealth and your youthful ages,'' ei dhana yauvana, putra parijana, "and you want to enjoy the society of freindship, love and family, but I say,'' ithe ki āche paratīti re, "do you think that there is transcendental pleasure in these nonsense thing? No, there is none. It is simply illusion.'' Ei dhana yauvana, putra parijana, ithe ki āche paratīti re. Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge, taraha ei bhava sindhu re.

Then again he says that

śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa

ei dina jāminī jāgi 're

viphale sevinu kṛpaṇa durajana

capala sukha-laba lāgi' re

Now Govinda dāsa is reminding his mind: "You have experience of your material happiness. So material happiness means, the ultimate goal of material happiness is sex life. But don't you remember how long you can enjoy this sex life?" Capala. "Flickering. Say, for a few minutes or moment. That's all. But for that purpose you are working so hard?" Śīta ātapa. "Don't care for snowfall. Don't care for scorching heat. Don't care for torrents of rain. Don't care for keeping night, night duty. Whole day and night you are working. And what is the result? Simply for that flickering momentous enjoyment. Are you not ashamed of this?" So śīta ātapa, bāta bariṣaṇa, ei dina jāminī jāgi re. Dina means day, and jāminī means night. So "Day and night, you are working so hard. Why?" Capala sukha-laba lāgi' re. "Simply for that flickering happiness." Then he says, ei dhana yauvana, putra parijana, ithe ki āche paratīti re. "There is no happiness actually, eternal happiness, transcendental happiness, in enjoying this life, or this youthful age, or family, society. There is no happiness, no transcendental happiness."

Therefore kamala-dala-jala, jīvana ṭalamala. "And you do not know how long you shall enjoy this life. Because it is tottering. You are on the tottering platform. Just like there is water on the lily leaf. It is tilting. At any moment it will fall down. So our life is tilting. At any moment it may collapse. We may meet, by chance, any danger, and finished. So don't waste life in that way.'' Bhajahū hari-pada nīti re. "Be always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the success of your life.'' And how to discharge this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? He advises, śravaṇa kīrtana, smaraṇa vandana, pāda-sevana dāsya re. You can adopt out of the nine ways of devotional service any one. If you can adopt all of them, that's very nice. If not, you can adopt eight of them. You can adopt seven of them, six of them, five of them, four of them. But even if you adopt only one of them, your life will be successful. What are those nine methods? Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Hearing from authoritative sources. And chanting. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Smaraṇam. Memorizing. Vandanam, prayers. Śravaṇa kīrtanaṁ, smaraṇaṁ vandana, pāda-sevanam. Offering service to His lotus feet as eternal servant. Pūjana sakhī-jana. Or just try to love Kṛṣṇa as your friend. Ātma-nivedana. Or give up everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the way of devotional service, and Govinda dāsa is aspiring after that Kṛṣṇa consciousness business. (end)

690108PU.LA

Purport to the Maṅgalācaraṇa Prayers

Los Angeles, January 8, 1969

Prabhupāda: Vande 'ham means "I am offering my respectful obeisances." Vande. V-a-n-d-e. Vande means "offering my respectful obeisances." Aham. Aham means "I." Vande 'ham śrī-gurūn, all the gurus, or spiritual masters. The offering of respect direct to the spiritual master means offering respect to all the previous ācāryas. Gurūn means plural number. All the ācāryas, they are not different from one another. Because they are coming in the disciplic succession from the original spiritual master and they have no different views, therefore, although they are many, they are one. Vande 'ham śrī-gurūn śrī-yuta-pada-kamalam. Śrī-yuta means "with all glories, with all opulence." Pada-kamalam, "lotus feet." Offering of respect to the superior begins from the feet, and blessing begins from the head. That is the system. The disciple offers his respect by touching the lotus feet of the spiritual master, and the spiritual master blesses the disciple by touching his head. Therefore it is said, "I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of all the ācāryas.'' Śrī-yuga-pada-kamalaṁ śrī-gurūn vaiṣṇavāṁś ca. Gurūn means spiritual master, and vaiṣṇavāṁś ca means all their followers, devotees of Lord.

Spiritual master means they must have many followers. They are all Vaiṣṇavas. They are called prabhus, and the spiritual master is called prabhupāda because on his lotus feet there are many prabhus. Pada means lotus foot. So all these Vaiṣṇavas, they are all prabhus. So they are also offered respectful Not that the spiritual master alone, but along with his associates. And these associates are all Vaiṣṇavas, his disciples. They are also devotees of the Lord; therefore they should also be offered respectful obeisances. This is the process. Then śrī-rūpam. The spiritual master is descending from the Six Gosvāmīs. Out of the Six Gosvāmīs, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī and his elder brother Sanātana Gosvāmī are heading the list. Śrī-rūpaṁ sāgrajātam. Agrajātam means his elder brother, eldest brother. Śrī-rupaṁ sāgrajātaṁ saha-gaṇa-raghunāthānvitam. They are also associated with other Gosvāmīs, two Raghunāthas, raghunāthān, plural number. There were Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī and Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī. Then Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. So all they are offered respected obeisances one after another.

And after finishing respectful obeisances to the spiritual master and the Gosvāmīs, then we approach Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya is also approached with His associates. Sāvadhūtam, sādvaitam. Sa means "with.'' Advaita, Advaita Gosai. And avadhūta means Nityānanda. So with Advaita and with Nityānanda, the offering goes to the Lord, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So after finishing all these obeisances one after another, according to the system, then śrī-rādhā-kṛṣṇa-pādān, then we approach Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is also associate. Kṛṣṇa is associated with Rādhārāṇī, and He (she?) is associated with Her immediate companions like Lalitā, Viśākhā, and others. So this is the process of offering respectful obeisances to the Deity. We cannot approach Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa directly. We have to approach through the spiritual master, through the Gosvāmīs, through the associates of Lord Caitanya. Then we approach Rādhā, then Kṛṣṇa. If one approaches Kṛṣṇa through this channel of disciplic succession, his efforts becomes successful. Otherwise, if he wants to approach Kṛṣṇa directly, it will be futile endeavor. (end)

690109PU.LA

Purport to Gaurāṅga Bolite Habe

Los Angeles, January 9, 1969

Prabhupāda: This nice song was sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, one of the great ācāryas of the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava sampradāya. That is the sect of Vaisnavism started by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Gauḍīya means belonging to Bengal. There are five Gauḍa-deśa in the northern part of India, out of which, part of Bengal, West Bengal, is called Gauḍa-deśa. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs are very appropriate just to the conclusions of Vedic injunctions. So he sings this song, how one can rise up to the transcendental plane for associating directly with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, what is that process. The process is one should begin this

Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the$mercy of Lord Caitanya. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself and He is teaching people how to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lord Kṛṣṇa, He personally spoke about Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā, but people who are not very intelligent, who are described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍha… Mūḍha means rascal. And duṣkṛtina, miscreant, and narādhama. Narādhama means lowest of the mankind. Such persons cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, Kṛṣṇa was so merciful that in order to claim all these people, means the lowest of mankind, miscreant, and fools, and rascals, rejected, so He came in the form of Lord Caitanya to reclaim them. So God is so merciful that even some persons cannot understand Him… First thing is people cannot understand actually what is God, but God comes Himself to explain Himself. Still, they commit mistake. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes as a devotee to teach us about Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we have to follow the footprints of Lord Caitanya. And Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura teaches that "First of all, try to chant the name of Gaursundara." Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. In this way, when we are a little bit attached with Gaurasundara, Lord Caitanya, then we automatically feel transcendental emotion. And that emotional stage is exhibited by shivering in the body. We should not, however, imitate such shivering to show to the public that "I have become a great devotee," but we should execute devotional service nicely and faithfully.; then that stage will come automatically, shivering. As soon as one will chant the name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, there will be shivering. This is the first symptom that one is getting advanced in the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka śarīre. He's expecting. Although he was a great ācārya, still, he was expecting, "When that stage will come?'' The wording of the song is as follows. G-a-u-r-a-n-g-a, gaurāṅga. Bolite, b-a-l-i-t-e. Habe, h-a-b-e. Gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka, p-u-l-a-k-a. Pulaka śarīra, s-a-r-i-r. Gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka śarīra hari hari, h-a-r-i h-a-r-i. Bolite, b-a-l-i-t-e. Hari hari bolite habe, h-a-b-e. Hari hari bolite kabe. Not habe, kabe, k-a-b-e. Nayane, n-a-y-a-n-e. Ba'be, b-a-b-e, Nīra, n-e-e-r. The meaning is that there will be not only shivering as soon as I utter the name of Gaurāṅga, but there will be torrents of tears in my eyes as soon as I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. this is the explanation.

The next line is āra kabe nitāi-cānder koruṇā hoibe. (spells out) Āra kabe nitāi-cānder koruṇā koribe. This is also aspiration, that "When Nityānanda Prabhu, the constant associate of Lord Caitanya, will be pleased upon me?" Koruṇā koribe. Koruṇā koribe means He will be pleased upon me. Nityānanda Prabhu or Nitāi-cānd, is the original spiritual master. He is Baladeva. Bala means strength, and deva, the Personality of Godhead who gives strength. Therefore Nitāi-cānd is the symbol of spiritual master who gives strength to the disciples. This is the process of disciplic succession. We have to acquire the spiritual strength. No amount of material strength can help me in the advancement of spiritual life. We must derive the spiritual strength. Just like we have to take electricity from the powerhouse by directly connecting with the powerhouse. Not the wiring but the electricity. Similarly, this disciplic succession means the strength is descending from the original person through the spiritual master. That is the idea. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura explains that "When Nitāicānd will be pleased?" And the result of such pleasure of Nitāicānd is that one becomes free from all desires for material enjoyment.

āra kabe nitāi-cānd koruṇā karibe

saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be

(spells out). So by the mercy of Nitāi-cānd, one will get free from all desires of material enjoyment.

The next line is viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana. (spells out) This kabe means when, aspiring. Śuddha means purified. Ha'be, will be. Mana means mind. So when actually our spiritual master or Nityānanda Prabhu is pleased upon us, at that time the symptom will be that we shall no longer hanker after material enjoyment. When that stage of life is arrived, at that time only, we can understand what is Vṛndāvana, the abode of Kṛṣṇa. Vṛndāvana is not a material place, just like ordinary city or country. It is transcendental. So appreciation of Vṛndāvana will be possible when our mind is free from all material desires. Viṣaya chāḍiyā. Viṣaya means eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are called viṣaya. Viṣaya means objects. In the material world there are, these four objects are in view: how I shall eat, how I shall sleep, how shall I mate, how shall I defend. So as soon as one is purified of all material desires, these material objectives will not be a problem.

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana

kabe hāma herabo śrī-vṛndāvana

So then we shall be able to understand what is Vṛndāvana and what is kingdom of God or Goloka Vṛndāvana.

And the next stage is that one has to understand what is the loving affairs, conjugal love, between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. And that will be possible if we carefully study the literatures left by the Gosvāmīs. Just like Rūpa Goswami has left behind him bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Vidagdha-mādhava, Lalitā-mādhava. Many books. Especially that Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So

viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana

kabe hāma herabo śrī-vṛndāvana

rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti…

(spells out) Habe means "will be". Ākuti eagerness. "When I shall be very much eager to understand what is spoken by the Gosvāmīs?'' These are the processes. We have to derive the pleasure of Nityānanda. We have to understand the six Gosvāmīs, what they are speaking. We have to cleanse our mind from material desires. These are the qualifications to understand what is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we shall be misled, we shall think Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa ordinary boy and girl. No. The activities are just like that, but it is all spiritual. There is no material contamination at all. There is no material inebrieties. Therefore, in such loving affairs, in such embracing, such kissing, in Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, that is all spiritual, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge, full of pleasure.

So at the present moment, in material condition, it is not possible to understand, but this is the purificatory process. We have to chant śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. This chanting process has got the spiritual value to lead us to the highest stage of understanding Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as we are capable of understanding what is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then it is possible for getting admission in the spiritual world. So all people interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness should follow the regulative principles, gradually raise himself one after another, and reach the highest successful transcendental platform of understanding Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. (end)

690110PU.LA

Purport to Gaura Pahū

Los Angeles, January 10, 1969

Prabhupāda: Gaura pahū nā bhajiyā goinu, prema-rathana-dhana helāya hārāiṅu. This is another song by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. He's saying that "I have invited my spiritual death by not worshiping Lord Caitanya." Gaura pahū nā bhajiyā goinu. Gaura pahū means "Lord Caitanya," and nā bhajiyā, "without worshiping." Goinu, "I have invited spiritual death." And adhame yatane kari dhanu tainu. "Why I have invited the spiritual death? Because I am engaged in something which is useless and I have rejected the real purpose of my life."Adhama means valueless things. And dhana means valuables. So actually, everyone of us, neglecting our spiritual emanicipation, we are engaged in material sense gratification, and therefore we are losing the opportunity of this human form of body to elevate myself on the spiritual platform. This human body is especially given to the conditioned soul to take a chance for spiritual emancipation. So anyone who does not care for spiritual emancipation, he is inviting spiritual death. Spiritual death means to forget oneself, that he's spirit. That is spiritual death. So in the animal life it is fully forgetfulness. They cannot be reminded at any circumstances that they are not this body, they are different from this body. It is only in this human form of body, human form of life, one can understand that he is not this body, he's spirit soul. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, one can easily understand this fact, and by worshiping Lord Caitanya, following His principles and ways, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and very easily come to the platform of spiritual understanding. But Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says on our behalf that we are neglecting this. Therefore we are inviting spiritual death.

Then he says that prema-rathana-dhana helāya hārāiṅu. Spiritual life means to develop real love. The… Everyone says love. There are so many signboards, so many papers, "love, love." But there is no love. This is illusion. It is all lust. Love for intoxication, love for sex, love for this… This is going on. So actual love means… Love, this word, can be applicable only with Kṛṣṇa, with God. Because we are created for that purpose. To love means to love Kṛṣṇa. So that is wanted. That is spiritual love. So prema-rathana. I could achieve that transcendental position of love, but I am neglecting. Therefore I am calling my spiritual death. And these things are happening due to my past misdeeds. Due to my past deeds, misdeeds, I have got a type of body. Everyone who has got this material body, it is due to past misdeeds. The… sometimes we call pious deeds. Actually, so long one gets this material body there is no pious deeds. Pious deeds means no more material body. That is pious deeds. Otherwise it is to be taken as a fact that even Brahmā, who is the chief living entity within this universe and has got a mass of years as duration of life, all power, still, that is also considered as misdeeds. Because he has got the material body. So we are going deep down and down, one after another, body, by our misdeeds. In the Bhāgavata also it is stated that they do not know that by this sense gratificatory process they will have another body. And the body is the cause of material pangs. Because I have got this body, therefore I feel headache, I feel stomachache. I feel this and that. But, as soon as we are out of this material body, there is no more material pangs. It is simply joyful life. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Prasannātmā means joyful. As soon as one gets spiritual life. So due to my past deeds, I am missing this opportunity. Apana kara mada seva…

And why it is happening? Sat-saṅga chāḍi khainu asatyera vilāsa. "I have given up the association of devotees, but I am associating with common nonsense men." Asatyera. Asat and sat. Sat means spirit. And asat means matter. So association of material attachment means implication in this material conditional life. So one has to make association with devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgād mama vīrya-saṁvido. One can understand about God only in association of devotees. Therefore we are advocating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, society. Actually, you'll find, one who comes to this society, by associating a few days, a few weeks, he becomes conscious and he comes forward for initiation and further advancement. So this association is very important. And the, those who are conducting different centers and temples, they should be very responsible men. Because everything will depend on their sincere activities and character. If they are insincere, then that will not be effective. One may come and associate with us, but if we are insincere, then it will be not be effective. But if the devotees are sincere, anyone who will come in contact with a devotee, he'll change. That is the secret. Sat-saṅga chāḍi asatyera vilāsa. And as soon as we give up the association of these devotees, immediately māyā will catch me. Immediately. Māyā is just side by side. As soon as we give up this company, māyā says "Yes, come in my company." Without any company, nobody can remain neutral. That is not possible. He must associate with māyā or Kṛṣṇa. So everyone should be very much serious to keep association with devotees, with Kṛṣṇa.

Kṛṣṇa means… When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa" means Kṛṣṇa with His devotes. Kṛṣṇa is never alone. Kṛṣṇa is with Rādhārāṇī. Rādhārāṇī is with the gopīs. And Kṛṣṇa is with the cowherd boys. We are not impersonalists. We do not see Kṛṣṇa alone. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa means with Kṛṣṇa's devotees. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to keep association with the devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Viṣaya viṣama viṣa satata khāinu. And he says that "I have drunk always the most dangerous poison of sense gratification." Viṣaya viṣama viṣa. Viṣaya means sense gratification. Eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. These are called… These four principles are called viṣaya. And viṣama means dangerously. And viṣa means poison. If one is simply engaged with these four principles of life, just like animals. Then it is to be supposed that he's simply drinking poison. That's all. Viṣaya viṣama satata khāinu. "I know this (is) poison, but I am so much intoxicated that I am drinking this poison every moment." Gaura-kīrtana-rase magana nā painu. "And I could not merge myself into the saṅkīrtana movement started by Lord Caitanya." Oh, that is actually the fact. Those who are too much attached to materialistic way of life, or always drinking the poison of sense gratification, they are not attracted by the saṅkīrtana movement.

So at the last, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is lamenting. He's not lamenting. He's representing ourself. If one comes to that point of lamentation, that is also very nice. He immediately becomes purified. Lamentation means purification. So he says, keno vā āchaya prāṇa kichu bali… "Why I am living? I do not make association with the devotees. I do not take part in the saṅkīrtana movement. I do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. I do not understand what is Lord Caitanya. Then what for I am living?" This is lamentation. "What is my happiness? What is the standard of my happiness? Why I am living?" Narottama dāsa kena nā gela. "Why I did not die long, long ago? I should have died. What is the meaning of my living?" So it is not Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's lamentation. Everyone of us should think like that, that "If we cannot make association with devotees, if we do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we do not come in touch with Lord Caitanya and associates, it was better for me to die. And there is no other remedy." This is the substance of this song. (end)

690111PU.LA

Purport to Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu

Los Angeles, January 11, 1969

Prabhupāda: Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu doyā koro more, tomā binā ke doyālu jagata-māyāre. This is a song composed by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. He is praying Lord Caitanya that "My dear Lord, please be merciful upon me because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?'' Actually, this is the fact. Not only Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, but also Rūpa Gosvāmī, he also prayed for Lord Caitanya when both of them met at Prayāga, Allahabad, in the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rūpa Gosvāmī at Prayāga. At that time, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī also said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations. Because You are distributing love of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.'' In other words, when Kṛṣṇa was personally present, He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made condition that "First of all you surrender.'' But here, in this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although He's Kṛṣṇa Himself, He makes no condition. He simply distributes, "Take love of Kṛṣṇa.'' Therefore Lord Caitanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation, and Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that "Please be merciful upon me. You are so magnanimous because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate upon them. But you should know also that I am the most fallen. Nobody is a greater fallen than me.'' Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra. "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned souls, fallen souls. But I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen than me. Therefore my claim is first."

Then he prays to Lord Nityānanda. He says, hā hā prabhu nityānanda, premānanda sukhī. "My dear Lord Nityānanda, You are always joyful, in spiritual bliss, and You appear always very happy. So I have come to You because I am most unhappy. So if You kindly put Your glance over me, then I may also become happy."

Then he prays to Advaita Prabhu: hā hā prabhu sītā-pati advaita gosāi. Advaita Prabhu's wife's name was Sītā. Therefore He is sometimes addressed as sītā-pati. So "My dear Advaita Prabhu, the husband of Sītā, please You also be kind upon me because if You become kind upon me, then naturally Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda also will be kind upon me." The reason is that actually, Advaita Prabhu invited Lord Caitanya to come down. When Advaita Prabhu saw the fallen souls, they are all engaged simply in sense gratificatory processes without understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness, He felt very much compassionate upon the fallen souls, and He felt Himself as incapable of claiming all these fallen souls. He therefore prayed to Lord Kṛṣṇa that "You come Yourself. Without Your personal presence, it is not possible to deliver these fallen souls." So by His invitation Lord Caitanya appeared. "Naturally…" Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays Advaita Prabhu that "If You be kind upon me, naturally Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda also will be kind upon me."

Then he prays to the Gosvāmīs. Hā hā svarūpa, sanātana, rūpa, raghunātha. "My dear Gosvāmī Prabhus,'' svarūpa. Svarūpa was Svarūpa Dāmodara was personal secretary of Lord Caitanya. He was always keeping with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and whatever He wanted, he immediately arranged for that. Two personal attendants, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Govinda, they were always, constantly with Lord Caitanya. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura also praying Svarūpa Dāmodara. And then the Gosvāmīs. The next disciples of Lord Caitanya were the six Gosvāmīs: Śrī Rūpa, Śrī Sanātana, Śrī Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Jīva Gosvāmī, and Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. These six Gosvāmīs were directly instructed by Lord Caitanya for spreading this movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is praying also their mercy. And after the six Gosvāmīs, the next ācārya was Śrīnivāsa Ācārya. So he's also praying Śrīnivāsa Ācārya.

Actually, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura was in the disciplic succession after Śrīnivāsa Ācārya. Or almost he was contemporary. And his personal friend was Rāmacandra, Rāmacandra Cakravartī. So he is praying that "I always desire the company of Rāmacandra." Devotee's company. The whole process is that we should always be praying mercy of the superior ācāryas. And we should keep company with pure devotee. Then it will be easier for us to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness to receive the mercy of Lord Caitanya and Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the sum and substance of this song sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. (end)

690116PU.LA

Purport to Parama Koruṇa

Los Angeles, January 16, 1969

Prabhupāda: Parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana, nitāi gauracandra. This is a song sung by Locana dāsa Ṭhākura, a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, almost contemporary. He wrote one book, Caitanya-maṅgala, depicting the activities of Lord Caitanya. That is a very famous book, Caitanya-maṅgala. And he has composed many songs. Practically all Vaiṣṇavas, they are transcendentally poetic. That is one of the 26 qualifications of the Vaiṣṇava. So he says that "These two Lords," nitāi gauracandra, "Lord Nityānanda and Lord Gaurāṅga, or Lord Caitanya, They are very merciful incarnations.'' Saba avatāra-sāra śiromaṇi. "They are essence of all incarnations.'' The incarnation is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that whenever there is discrepancies in the prosecution of religiosities and there is prominence of impious activities, at that time the Lord incarnates, or He descends on this material world, for protecting the pious and annihilating the impious. That is the mission of incarnation. Every incarnation you'll find two things. Lord Kṛṣṇa, He's so beautiful, so kind, but He is very dangerous to the demons. The demons were seeing Him as thunderbolt and the gopīs were seeing Him as the most beautiful cupid. So in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. The God is realized in proportion to one's freedom from the demoniac propensities.

So in this age… Of course, the last incarnation, Kalki, will simply kill. Long, long after, He will come. But here Lord Caitanya, His mission is no killing, simply favoring. That is the specific characteristic of Lord Caitanya. Because in this age, of course, there is very much prominence of irreligiosity. But if Lord Caitanya wanted to kill them, then there was no question of their salvation. They would be… Of course, anyone who is killed by incarnation he also gets salvation. But not to the spiritual planets, but they merge into the Brahman effulgence as the impersonalists desire. In other words, the impersonalist's goal of salvation is as good as the goal of salvation of the enemies of God. That is not a very difficult job. So Lord Caitanya is very merciful because He is embracing everyone by bestowing love of Kṛṣṇa. Rūpa Gosvāmī has described Lord Caitanya as the most munificent of all the incarnations because He is giving Kṛṣṇa to everyone, without any qualification. So Locana dāsa Ṭhākura says that parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana, nitāi gauracandra, that They are essence of all incarnation. Kevala ānanda-kanda. And Their preaching process is very pleasing. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance nicely, and when you feel tired, just take rest and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam." So His formula is very pleasing. Kevala ānanda-kanda. While He was present in Jagannātha Purī, every day in the evening, dancing was, chanting and dancing continued. And after dancing is finished, He used to distribute sumptuously prasādam of Jagannātha. So many thousands of people used to assemble every night. So simply transcendentally pleasing, this movement. Kevala ānanda-kanda.

Then he recommends, bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi. "My dear brother, just try to worship these two Lords, Caitanya and Nityānanda," sudṛḍha viśvāsa kori', "with faith and conviction." One should have faith in the words of Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya says that "Go on chanting. Simply by chanting, one will get all perfection of life." So this is a fact. Unless we take to chanting, we cannot realize it, but those who are chanting, they are realizing that they're getting all desired perfection of life very quickly. So we should chant this mantra with faith and conviction. But the only qualification required in this connection, he says, viṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā, mukhe bolo hari hari. We have to chant with faith and conviction at the same time we should take care, we should be guarding against sense enjoyment. Viṣaya chāḍiyā, viṣaya means sense enjoyment. And chāḍiyā means give up. One should give up sense enjoyment. Of course, in this materialistic life we have got our senses and we are practiced to use them. We cannot stop it. But there is no question of stopping, but regulating it. Just like we want to eat. Viṣaya means eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So these things are not forbidden altogether. But they're adjusted just to make it favorable for executing my Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we should not take… Just like eating. We should not eat just to satisfy the taste. We should eat only just to keep ourself fit for executing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So eating is not stopped, but it is regulated favorably. Similarly, mating. Mating is also not stopped. But the regulative principle is that you should marry and you should have sex life only for begetting children Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise don't do it. So everything is regulated. There is no question of stopping defense also. Arjuna was fighting, defending, under the order of Kṛṣṇa. So everything is there. Nothing stop. Simply it is adjusted for executing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Viṣaya chāḍiyā. We should not accept these viṣaya, these four principles of bodily demands, namely eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, for sense gratification. No. The politicians, they fight for sense gratification. They do not see to the good of the people. For their political aggrandizement they fight. That fight is forbidden. But when fight is necessity for defending people, that fighting should be taken. So we have to give up this principle of sense gratification, or sense gratificatory process.

Dekho dekho bhāi tri-bhuvane nāi. Then he says, "Just see that there is nobody else so merciful.'' Paśu pākhī jhure, pāṣāṇa vidare. By His mercy even the birds and beasts, they are also maintained. Actually, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu passed through the forest known as Jhārikhaṇḍa in central India, He was only accompanied by his personal attendant, and He was alone, and when He was passing through the forest He touched one tiger. He was sleeping, and the tiger answered roaring. The company, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's attendant, he thought, "Now we are gone.'' But actually, Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the tiger, "Why you are sleeping? Just stand up. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.'' And the tiger began to dance. So actually, this happened. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, the tigers, the deers, the Everyone joined. So, of course, we are not so powerful. But it is possible that At least, we have seen, the dogs are dancing in saṅkīrtana. So it is possible also to take But we may not attempt such great risk. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu could induce tigers to dance, we can at least induce every human being to dance. This is such a nice movement.

So paśu pākhī jhure, pāṣāṇa vidare. Pāṣāṇa means stone. So even the stone-hearted man we also melts by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That we have experienced, seen. Pāṣāṇa vidare, śuni' jāra guṇa-gāthā. Simply by hearing the transcendental pastimes and characteristics of Lord Caitanya, even hard-hearted men, they also melted. There were many instances, Jagāi Mādhāi. Many fallen souls, they became elevated to the highest spiritual platform. Then Locana dāsa Ṭhākura says that viṣaya majiyā, rohili poriyā. "Unfortunately I am so much entrapped in these demands of the body or the senses that I have forgotten the lotus feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.'' Viṣaya majiyā, rohili poriyā, se pade nahilo āśa. "I could not desire to be attached to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya.'' So why it is so? So he's lamenting that āpana karama, bhuñjāye śamana, that "I am suffering the sequence of my past misdeeds, that I could not be attracted by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is a punishment on me by the Yamaraja, the superintendent of death.'' Actually, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, saṅkīrtana movement, is so nice and attractive, every simple, I mean to say, unsophisticated person shall be attracted. But if one is not attracted it is to be understood that he is being punished by the laws of the superintendent of death. Anyway, if we stick to this principle of chanting, then even Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, he'll also fail to punish. That is the verdict of Brahma-saṁhitā. Brahma-saṁhitā says, one who takes to this devotional life, his reaction of past deeds are adjusted immediately. so every one of us should take part in this movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. (end)

690520PU.COL

Purport to Jīv Jāgo

Columbus, May 20, 1969

Prabhupāda: Jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole. Jīv means the living entities. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is asking all living entities to "Wake up. Please wake up. Please get up." Jāgo. Jāgo means "Wake up."

jīva jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole

kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole

"How long you shall go on sleeping on the lap of the witches, māyā?" Bhajibo boliyā ese saṁsāra-bhitare: "In the womb of your mother you promised that this life you shall engage in the matter of developing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Bhuliyā rohile tumi avidyāra bhare: "But you are forgotten everything under the spell of illusory energy." Actually, when$the child remains within the womb of his mother, packed up in airtight bag, at the age of seven months within the womb, when he develops his consciousness, he feels very uncomfortable, and the fortunate baby prays to God, "Please relieve me from this awkward position, and this life I shall fully engage myself in developing my God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But as soon as the child comes out of the womb of his mother, under the spell of these three modes of material nature he forgets, and he cries, and the parents take care, and the whole thing is forgotten.

There is one instance of Parīkṣit Mahārāja. When he was in the womb of his mother, their paternal, I mean to say, enemy, Droṇa…, son of Droṇācārya, Aśvatthāmā, he released a weapon called brahmāstra. The brahmāstra could kill even within the womb. So at that time Lord Kṛṣṇa entered and saved the child. The child saw the form of Kṛṣṇa and was remembering. And when the child came out, he was trying to find out where is that form. He was searching after Kṛṣṇa. So the astrologers who were present there, they could understand that this child is seeking something. Therefore his name was given, Parīkṣit. Parīkṣit means one who is trying to test. Parikṣa. Parikṣa means test, examination. So there are many examples, of course, very rare, the child remembers. Generally forgets. So Lord Caitanya is trying to wake up all children of māyā, nature's son, to wake up. The similar instruction is in the Vedic Upaniṣad. Uttiṣṭhata jāgrata. The advice is that "Everyone should now wake up. They should not sleep under the spell of illusion, material nature. This human form of body must be utilized." The same thing Lord Caitanya is speaking in ordinary songs, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole: "All living entities wake up. Don't miss this opportunity." Kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra: "How long you shall remain asleep in this way, under the spell of māyā? This is the opportunity. Don't sleep."

Then He says, "You have forgotten. But I have brought one medicine so that…" Just like when a man remains unconscious under some intoxication or snake bite, there are some herbs. If it is put before the nostril and if the patient smells, immediately he gets consciousness. Similarly, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "I have brought also one medicine." Enechi auśādhi māyā nasibaro lagi': "This medicine can dissipate your this forgetfulness under the spell of māyā." Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro. What is that? Hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi: "This is this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. You please take it." The idea is that if one simply chants Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare, his unconscious stage, or sleeping stage under the spell of illusory māyā, will gradually vanish. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].

So this is a song composed by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So he says that bhakativinoda prabhu-caraṇe pariyā: "Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura took the advantage of the instruction of Lord Caitanya and immediately fell down on the lotus feet of the Lord." Hari-nāma mahā-mantra loilo māgiyā: "And very humbly he begged Lord Caitanya, 'Kindly give me this medicine, and I shall utilize it.' '' The whole instruction is that all sleeping members of the human society, they should take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and willingly they should accept. Then there will be immediate effect and everyone will be out of the clutches of māyā, and his original consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will be awakened, and his life will be sublime. (end)

690910PU.HAM

Purport to Hari Hari Biphale

Hamburg, September 10, 1969

Prabhupāda: …biphale janama goṅāinu. This is a song sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a very stalwart ācārya in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sampradāya, disciplic succession. He has sung many songs, important songs, and his songs are accepted as Vedic conclusion. [break] …very authoritative songs. So he says, praying to Lord Kṛṣṇa, "My dear Lord," hari hari, "I have simply spoiled my life." Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. Why you have spoiled your life? He says, manuṣya-janama pāiyā, "I got this human form of life," rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, "but I did not care to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Therefore I have spoiled my life." And how it is? It is exactly like one takes poison knowingly. If somebody takes poison unknowingly, there is excuse, but if somebody takes poison knowingly, it is suicidal. So he says that "I have committed suicide simply by not worshiping Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in this human form of life."

Then he says, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, saṅkīrtana movement, is nothing material. It is directly imported from the spiritual kingdom known as Goloka Vṛndāvana. So golokera prema-dhana. And it is not ordinary song. It is just the treasure of love of Godhead. So… "But I have no attraction for this." Rati nā janmilo kene tāy. "I have no attraction for it. On the contrary," viṣaya-biṣānale, dibā-niśi hiyā jwale, "and because I did not accept it, therefore the blazing fire of the poison of material existence is constantly burning me." Dibā-niśi hiyā jwale. "Day and night, my heart is burning on account of this poisonous effect of material existence." And taribare nā koinu upāy. "But I did not seek any remedy for this." In other words, the remedy for this blazing fire of material existence is this saṅkīrtana movement. It is imported from the spiritual kingdom. And who has imported it? Or who has brought it?

Then he says, brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei. Brajendra-nandana, the son of King of Braja. That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is known as son of Nanda Mahārāja. He was King of Brajabhūmi. So brajendra-nandana jei, the same personality who was formerly the son of Nanda Mahārāja has now appeared as the son of Mother Śacī. Śacī-suta hoilo sei. And balarāma hoilo nitāi. And Lord Balarāma has become Nityānanda. So these two brothers adventing, they are delivering all kinds of fallen souls. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo. As many fallen souls there were within this world, they're delivering them simply by this chanting procession. Hari-nāme uddhārilo, simply by this chanting. How it is possible? Then he says, tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. The living example is the two brothers, Jagāi and Mādhāi. These Jagāi and Mādhāi, two brothers, they happened to be born in a brāhmaṇa family but they turned to be debauch number one. And… Of course, nowadays, in this age, their qualification is not considered debauch. Their debauchery was because they were drunkard and woman hunter. Therefore they were called debauch. And meat-eater also. So… But they became later on delivered by Lord Caitanya and Nityānanda. Great devotees.

So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's explanation says that in this age although people are drunkard, woman-hunter, meat-eater, and all…, gambler, all kinds of sinful actor, still, if they take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they'll be delivered, undoubtedly. This is the blessings of Lord Caitanya. Then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, hā hā prabhu nanda-suta, vṛṣabhānu-sutā-juta. "My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, You are son of King Nanda, and Your consort Rādhārāṇī is the daughter King Vṛṣabhānu. So You are together here standing." Narottama dāsa kahe, nā ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy, "Now I am surrendering unto You, please do not kick me away or push me away with Your lotus feet because I have no other shelter. I am just taking shelter unto Your lotus feet without having any other means. So please accept me and deliver me." This is the sum and substance of this song. (end)

700802NP.LA

Purport to Nṛsiṁha Prayers

Los Angeles, August 2, 1970

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Everything all right?

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Chant Nṛsiṁha mantra. (they chant together)

namas te narasiṁhāya

prahlādāhlāda-dāyine

hiraṇyakaśipor vakṣaḥ-

śilā-ṭaṅka-nakhālaye

ito nṛsiṁhaḥ parato nṛsiṁho

yato yato yāmi tato nṛsiṁhaḥ

bahir nṛsiṁho hṛdaye nṛsiṁho

nṛsiṁham ādiṁ śaraṇaṁ prapadye

tava kara-kamala-vare nakham adbhuta-śṛṅgaṁ

dalita-hiraṇyakaśipu-tanu-bhṛṅgam

keśava dhṛta-narahari-rūpa jaya jagadīśa hare

jaya jagadīśa hare jaya jagadīśa hare

Nṛsiṁhadeva may save you. Lord Nṛsiṁha, prahlāda āhlāda-dāyine. And to the Hiraṇyakaśipu, śilā-ṭaṅka-nakhālaye. Both ways Kṛṣṇa is protecting. And Viṣṇu, you see He has got four hands. In two hands He's carrying śaṇkha, cakra and in two hands gadā, padma. This śaṅkha and padma is for the devotees, and gadā and cakra for the demons. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yadā yadā hi… paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. He has got two business. To give protection to the devotee and to kill the demons. But the result is one. He does good to the demons by killing him and He does good to the devotees by giving him protection.

Nṛsiṁhadeva will give you protection in my absence. I am now going to Japan to get some books printed personally and after that my program is to go to India. Maybe I shall be able to establish some temples there. Of course in India there are many temples, but it does not mean that I shall not also establish some temples. Just like there is overpopulation. It does not mean that one should not beget child. Similarly, there may be many hundreds of thousand temples in India, still our this society, ISKCON, should have their own temples. That is the way since time immemorial. There are hundreds and thousands of temples. So my advice to you, I am old man. So even I may not return, you shall continue this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is eternal and I shall request you to keep the standard as I have already given you the program. The Deity worship, the kīrtana, the street saṅkīrtana, distribution of literature, books. You should carry on this program with great enthusiasm. That is my request.

In the path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness the first principle is enthusiasm. If you lack enthusiasm then other things will not happen. And you can keep enthusiastic if you follow the rules and regulation and chant regularly Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Otherwise that enthusiasm also will dry. So six things are required for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The first thing is enthusiasm. Utsāhān dhairyāt. And patient. And niścayād, with conviction, firm conviction. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayād tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Following the rules and regulation, chalked out plans. And sato vṛtteḥ, dealing very straightforward. No diplomacy, no politics, no duplicity. That will not help. Sato vṛtteḥ. Vṛtteḥ, his profession should be very straightforward. No underhand dealings. Sato vṛtteḥ and sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], and in the association of devotees. Six things. Enthusiasm, patience, firm conviction, following the rules and regulations, dealing straightforward, no duplicity, and in association of devotees. If you can keep these six principles always in front then your progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is sure. There is no doubt about it. So as far as possible I've tried to train you and you are doing nice. I'm satisfied. So keep the standard and go on. March forward and Kṛṣṇa will bless you. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant. [break] (prema-dhvanī) (end)

710214PU.GOR

Purport to Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava

Gorakhpur, February 14, 1971

Prabhupāda: …gopī-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī, yasoda-nandana braja-jana-rañjana yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī. This small song you can practice. The tune I can give you. (Prabhupāda sings each line and devotees respond, then with mṛdaṅga and karatālas.) This is actual picture of Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Mādhava giri-vara-dhārī. Original Kṛṣṇa this is. Rādhā-Mādhava giri-vara-dhārī. Vraja-jana-vallabha. His business is to please the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. That's all. He has no other business. And the vraja-jana also, they have no other business than to please Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is original Kṛṣṇa. Vraja-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī. And first business is Rādhā-Madhave. Of course, Kṛṣṇa is concerned with everyone, especially concerned with Rādhārāṇī. Rādhā-Mādhava, kuñja-bihārī, and enjoys with Rādhā in different kuñjas, bushes, of Vṛndāvana. And then, yaśodā-nandana. Next He wants to please His mother, Yaśodā. Yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-rañjana. And Kṛṣṇa is very affectionate to all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. The son of Yaśodā and Nanda Mahārāja. They love Kṛṣṇa, all the elderly persons. They love. Elderly ladies and persons, they love Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, here is the son of Yaśodā and Nanda Mahārāja.'' They're all tenants and subordinates to Nanda Mahārāja. Nanda Mahārāja is the chief man in Vṛndāvana, and they are their subjects. So they are affectionate to Kṛṣṇa because He happens to be son of Yaśodā and Nanda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa's business is (Śrīla Prabhupāda goes into trance) (end)

710710PU.LA

Purport to Hare Krishna Maha Mantra

Los Angeles, July 10, 1971

Prabhupāda: So this mahā-mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, is being chanted by Brahmā with his four mouths. Brahmā-jape catur-mukhe. Brahmā means Lord Brahmā, and jape means he is chanting, catur-mukhe, with his four heads. Within this universe, only Brahmā has got four heads. And Lord Śiva sometimes exhibits five heads. So it is explained here that Lord Brahmā is also chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare, with his four mouths. Still he is chanting. He does not think that he is satiated. This transcendental name is so sweet that either you chant with your one mouth and one tongue or with one thousand mouths or one thousand tongues, still, you will never feel tired. That is the purport of this song. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, he lamented that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare, these names are so sweet that how I can relish the transcendental sweetness with one tongue and one mouth? If God would have given me millions of tongues and millions of mouths, then I would have relished a little of it." So he lamented. Here also it is said that Nārada Muni, he has got always with him a tampura, and he is traveling all over the universe constantly. He cannot stay in any place more than a few seconds, and he has no companion. But his only companion is that tampura and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said here, nārada-yabe, vīṇā-yantre, kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare. (end)

710720PU.NY

Purport to Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava

New York, July 20, 1971

Prabhupāda: So you know this song Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava?

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: So you can follow me?

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! (Śrīla Prabhupāda leads singing of Jaya

Rādhā-Mādhava)

Prabhupāda: So this is the-sit down-original nature of Kṛṣṇa, original nature of Kṛṣṇa. He is Rādhā-Mādhava. He is the lover of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. And kuñja-vihārī, always enjoying the company of the gopīs within the bushes of Vrdavana forest. Rādhā-mādhava kuñja-vihārī. So He's not only lover of Rādhārāṇī, but braja-jana-vallabha. The whole residents of Vṛndāvana, they love Kṛṣṇa. They do not know anything else. They do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is God, or not; neither they are very much harassed, that "I shall love Kṛṣṇa if He is God." "He may be God or He may be whatever He is. It doesn't matter, but we love God, Kṛṣṇa." That's all. That is called unnalloyed love. "If Kṛṣṇa is God, then I shall love Him"-this is conditional love. This is not pure love. Kṛṣṇa may be God or whatever He may be, but by His wonderful acts, the Vrajavāsī, they are thinking, "Oh Kṛṣṇa, He is very wonderful child, maybe some demigod. Maybe some demigod." Because people are generally under impression that the demigods are all-powerful. They're powerful within this material world. But they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is above all of them. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. The highest demigod, Brahmā, is giving his opinion, "The supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa."

So as the residents of Vṛndāvana, they love Kṛṣṇa without any condition, similarly, Kṛṣṇa also loves them without any condition. Vraja-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī. When the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana were in danger because they stopped Indra-yajña and Indra became very angry, and he sent very great, powerful cloud and rained over Vṛndāvana incessantly for seven days, so when the inhabitants became very much disturbed, Kṛṣṇa, although He was only seven years old boy, He saved them by lifting the Govardhana Hill. So He taught Indradeva, demigod, that "To stop your disturbance is the business of My little finger. That's all." So he came down to his knees. These things you'll find in Kṛṣṇa book. So as the Gopī-jana-vallabha, His only business is how to protect gopī-jana. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is how to become one of the gopī-jana. Then Kṛṣṇa will save us from any danger, even by lifting a hill or mountain. Kṛṣṇa is so kind and so powerful. When Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill, He did not practice some yoga system. And that is God. Although He was a child, He was playing like a child, He was dealing like a child, but when there was need, He was manifesting as God. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa, not that He has to go and practice some yoga system. Then He becomes God. No. He's not that type of God, not manufactured God. He's God.

So gopī-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī. And as a child, as beloved child of Yaśodā, Yaśodā-nandana,… Kṛṣṇa likes to be a child of a devotee. He wants to be chastised from His devotee father and mother. Because everyone worships Him, nobody goes to chastise Him, so He takes pleasure when a devotee chastises Him. That is Kṛṣṇa's service. If Kṛṣṇa takes pleasure being chastised, so the responsibility is taken by a devotee: "All right, I shall become Your father and chastise You." When Kṛṣṇa wants to fight, one of His devotees becomes Hiraṇyakaśipu and fights with Him. So all activities of Kṛṣṇa is with His devotees. He is… Therefore, to become associate of Kṛṣṇa, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness… Yaśodā-nandana vraja-jana-vallabha, vraja-jana-rañjana. His only business is how to satisfy… As braja-jana's business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, similarly, Kṛṣṇa's business is how to satisfy braja-jana. This is reciprocation of love. Yamunā-tīra-vana-cārī. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is wandering on the banks of Yamunā to please the gopīs, the cowherd boys, the birds, beasts, calves. They are not ordinary birds, beasts, calves or men. They are on the top of self-realization. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. After many, many lives they got that position, to play with Kṛṣṇa.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that everyone can go to Kṛṣṇaloka and become His associate, as a friend or so many other things, as a servant, as father, as mother. And Kṛṣṇa is agreeable to any one of these propositions. These things are described very nicely in our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So Kṛṣṇa does not go even a step from Vṛndāvana. The original Kṛṣṇa is Vṛndāvana. That is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā,

cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-

lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam

lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambrahma-sevyamānaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ (tam ahaṁ bhajāmi)

[Bs. 5.29]

Brahmā is accepting the Supreme Personality of Govinda, Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana. Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam: "He is engaged in playing flute."

(veṇuṁ kvaṇantam) aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ

barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam

kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

[Bs. 5.30]

So take advantage of these books, this knowledge, and this prasādam, this chanting, and be happy and go to Kṛṣṇa. So nice thing. All right. (end)

720527PU.LA

Purport to Bhajahu Re Mana

Los Angeles, May 27, 1972

Prabhupāda: So this song was sung by Govinda dasa. Govinda-dāsa-abhilāsa re. What is his desire? Abhilāsa means desire. Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana: "My dear mind…'' Because mind is our friend and enemy. If you train the mind, then mind is your best friend. And if you cannot train your mind, then will be your bitterest enemy. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. Therefore mind has always to be engaged on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then mind automatically will be controlled and will become friend. So Govinda dasa is expressing his desire: "My dear mind, you just be engaged in devotional service of Nanda-nandana.'' His…, he does not say Kṛṣṇa. He says Nanda-nandana. If we address Kṛṣṇa directly, that is not very pleasing, but if we say Kṛṣṇa: Nanda-nandana, Yaśodā-nandana, Devakī-nandana, Pārtha-sārathi-in relationship with His devotee-then He becomes more pleased. So bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana. Why Śrī-Nanda-nandana? Now, abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. If you take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, Nanda-nandana, then you'll have no more anxiety, fear.

samāṣritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ

mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ

bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ

padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām

[SB 10.14.58]

This is Bhagavat-darśana. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām. This material world, padaṁ padam means step by step there is danger. So one who takes shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ samāṣritā, for him there is no more danger. Abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. How it is possible to take complete shelter of Kṛṣṇa, which is fearlessness, no anxiety, vaikuṇṭha? Durlabha manava-janama sat-saṅge. This is possible if you associate with devotees. If you think that "Now I have become very much advanced. Now I shall live alone and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, imitating Haridāsa Ṭhākura,'' this is nonsense. You cannot imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura. You have to associate with devotees. Durlabha manava-janam sat sange. Sat-sange. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido [SB 3.25.25]. If you remain with the devotees, then by their association, by talking with them, you'll get real understanding of God consciousness. It is very practical to understand. Just like in material world there are many associations, societies. Businessmen, they have got their stock exchange association, those who are dealing in exchange. They have got an association. They go there, and their business facility is very good. Similarly, so many clubs. If you want to drink and enjoy sense, you go to so many clubs and associate with them and you'll learn how to drink, how to mate very nicely. So association is very important. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society are giving chance people to associate with us, so that he'll be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore Govinda dasa recommends, durlabha mānava-janama-sat-saṅge. Mānava. This human life is durlabha, very rarely obtained. Not dogs' association, crows' association, but swans' association. There are association even by nature. "Birds of the same feather flock together.'' The crows, they'll mix with crows, and the swans will mix with swan. White swan, very nice water, nice garden, they will like that. The crows will not like that. The crows will like where filthy things are thrown away. They'll take pleasure there. So similarly, according to the quality of nature, there are different association in human society. But it is recommended that durlabha mānava sat-saṅge: not with the crows but with the swans. That association.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society is the swans, paramahaṁsa. Haṁsa. Haṁsa means swan. Haṁsa, this example is given because the swan knows the technique how to take milk out of water. You give the swan milk and water, it will take the milk portion and give it up the water portion. Similarly a swan, a haṁsa, paramahaṁsa, means in this human form of life, one who takes the spiritual portion of life and rejects the material portion of life, he is called haṁsa, paramahaṁsa. We are mixed. Our body is material, but I am spirit soul. So we have to know the techniques how to get out of this material bondage. That is the process of jñāna vairāgya, knowledge and renunciation. The example is given, just like wood, firewood. If you somehow or other, you can ignite fire, then the fire will vanquish the wood. The blazing fire will consume the whole wood. Similarly, you have got the fire of spiritual consciousness. If you can evoke that spiritual consciousness, this material consciousness will be burnt up. It will come out from this material body, but when it comes out, then it will vanquish the material body. Very good, good example. The fire, there is…, in the wood there is fire, everyone knows. So you ignite fire, and if you make it dry, then the fire takes place very quickly. And when it is blazing fire, then the wood becomes vanquished. There is no more existence of the wood. Similarly, if you can invoke your spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when it will be very nicely going on, then your material existence will be finished. This is the process. Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge taraha e bhava-sindhu re. In this way, just get on the other side of this ocean of nescience.

Then, one may say that "If I associate with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, then how my family affairs will go on? Who will look after my wife and children, society, friendship, love? I have got so many business.'' There, therefore he says, śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa ei dina jāminī jāgi re: "My dear mind, you are working so hard.'' Śīta ātapa. "In severe cold you are going to work. In scorching heat you are going to work. Torrents of rain… You cannot stop your work.'' Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa. "Night duty, whole night working.'' People are doing that. Śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa ei dina jāminī jāgi re. Whole day work, again I'll get some more money, I'll let you work at night also, extra. In this way we are working. Why? Why you are working? Why you are working?

śīta ātapa bāta bariṣaṇa

ei dina jāminī jāgi re

biphale sevinu kṛpaṇa durajana

capala sukha labha lāgi' re

"In this way I have wasted my time,'' biphale sevinu, "to serve kṛpana durajana, some so-called society, friendship and love. Kṛpaṇa, they will not, never, be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but I am engaged in their service.'' So this is general, not that every, every family. Mostly 99.9. So biphale sevinu, "In this way I am wasting my time. And what is the pleasure?'' Capala sukha-labha lāgi' re. "Few minutes' sex, that's all.'' Behind the sex, so many labor. Therefore Govinda dāsa says that "You are trying to enjoy wealth,'' ei-dhana, yauvana, putra, parijana. Material happiness means to acquire money, dhana;, and then jana, many adherents or dependents-wife, children, friends, society, so many things, country. So putra, parijana, ithe ki āche paratīti re. "You cannot have any transcendental bliss in this.'' kamala-dala-jala, jīvana ṭalamala. The life is tottering. You cannot say when the life will be finished. The example is given, kamala-jala-dala. Just like lotus leaf. If you put water on the leaf, it will not stay; it will be tiltering. At any moment it slips. Similarly, our life is like that, tiltering. At any moment-finished. Kamala-jala-dala, jivana…, bhajahu hari-pada nīti re. Therefore engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness as much as you can. Finish before the death comes. That is your mission. And what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Śravana, kīrtana, smarana, vandana, pāda-sevana, dāsya re, pūjana, sakhī-jana, ātma-nivedana, the nine kinds of devotional service, govinda-dāsa-abhilāṣa re.

So everyone should desire like Govinda dasa. Śravana kīrtana, these are the devotional processes: hearing; chanting; remembering; arcana, worshiping the Deity; vandana, offering prayer. There are nine kinds. So human life is meant for this purpose. By this process, gradually we ignite the fire of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or spiritual consciousness. Then, by that fire, as by blazing fire the wood itself becomes burnt into ashes, so our, all of our covering… The spirit soul is covered by matter, by ignorance. So this covering and ignorance will be burnt into ashes, and you'll become free and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the purport of this song.

Now you can begin. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

750228PU.ATL

Purport to Parama Koruṇa

Atlanta, February 28, 1975

Prabhupāda: …pahū dui jana. Pahū means prabhu. The shortcut is pahū. Prabhu, lord, or master. So these prabhu two, two prabhus, Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu… Caitanya Mahāprabhu is addressed as Mahāprabhu, Mahā-puruṣa. And others, they are addressed as prabhu. So these two prabhus, Nityānanda Prabhu and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, are very merciful, parama koruṇa. Parama koruṇa means extremely merciful. Extremely merciful because Kṛṣṇa is also merciful, but because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original feature… Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also Kṛṣṇa, but He is acting as devotee. He is not acting as Kṛṣṇa. He is agting as devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

namo mahā-vadānyāya

kṛṣṇa-preme-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-

nāmne (gaura-tviṣe namaḥ)

He is Kṛṣṇa, but at present He has assumed the name of Kṛṣṇa-caitanya. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya also appreciated Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He made one hundred verses about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu, just to teach us, He destroyed the ślokas, "Oh, it is too much praising Me." So anyway, some of the ślokas were saved. Two of them are mentioned in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So one of the śloka, verse, is

vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-

śikṣārtham ekaḥ puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī

kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye

[Cc. Madhya 6.254]

Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya is offering his obeisances to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, speaking like this, that "You are the same original person, Kṛṣṇa. But You have now assumed the form of Kṛṣṇa caitanya just to teach vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam. You have come to teach the mass of people the art of becoming detached to this material world.'' Vairāgya-vidyā. Vairāgya. Rāgya means attachment and virāga means detachment. So we fallen souls, conditioned souls, we are very much attached to this material body, and consequently, material world. This is the disease. This is called bhava-roga, or material disease, to become attached to this body. "I am Indian,'' "I am American,'' "I am white,'' "I am black''-I identify with this body because we are very much attached to this body. But if we study very deeply, "Why I am attached to this body?'' Suppose if there is some danger, immediately warning, just this roof is going to fall down, we shall immediately take care of our own body, not of our Godbrothers. Because we are very much attached to this body. This is the first business, how to save this body. Now, the next question is "Why you are so much anxious to save this body?'' What will be the answer? Can anyone say? Why one is so much attached with this body? The answer is that because I, the real I, I am within this body, therefore I am anxious to save it. Then why you are anxious to save the soul, individual soul? The answer will be that because I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So ultimately we want to love Kṛṣṇa, but because we are in a forgetful platform, then someone is trying to save his body, someone is trying to save his bodily relationship. Therefore in so many ways we are implicated with this material atmosphere.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to teach us how to become detached to this material. That is vairāgya-vidyā. Vidyā means vairāgya-vidyā. Vidyā does not mean to become more and more attached to this material world. That is not… That is avidyā, illusion, because I will not be able to save this body. This body will change. I will be annihilated. But still, I am very much anxious for this body. This is called illusion or ignorance or avidyā. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to teach us vairāgya-vidyā, how to become detached. He personally showed by His life example that… He was very learned scholar in Navadvīpa. His name was Nimāi Paṇḍita, and He was very influential also. He was so influential that simply by His calling, 100,000 people joined Him to show a civil disobedience movement, disobeying the order of the magistrate that "You cannot perform kīrtana." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu organized immediately about one lakh of people and went to perform at the house of the magistrate. The civil disobedience movement, perhaps you know that it was inaugurated by Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi, in India against the British government. But long, long before, five hundred years before, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He started this civil disobedience movement against the order of Kazi. So He was so popular. My point is that not only He was a very learned scholar… He was young man, twenty, twenty-two years, but He was so popular that He could call 100,000 people at once to start this civil disobedience. The social position…

He was beautiful, Gaurasundara. His another name is Gaurasundara, very beautiful boy. And a very learned scholar, Nimāi Paṇḍita. Nobody could defeat Him. And very influential and born of a very high-grade brāhmaṇa family. His father, His grandfather, was very, very learned scholars. So in every way He was very well situated, although the brāhmaṇas are not very rich. They do not care for money. They are interested in knowledge, brahma-jñāna. And if one knows Brahman, then he is brāhmaṇa. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ: "Brāhmaṇa means one who knows the Absolute Truth." That is brahma-jñāna. The human life is meant for that purpose, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Everyone should be interested to enquire about Brahman, the Absolute Truth. At least, a class of man must be there in the society. That is the brain, brain of the society, brāhmaṇa. Just like you have got the brain in your body. If the brain is absent, if the brain is gone mad, then your whole body is useless. That is the position at the present moment. There is no brain in the society. All śūdras, no brāhmaṇas. Because nobody is interested with the Absolute Truth.

Everyone is interested how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and how to defend. That is going on, nationwide, worldwide. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is interested to make a section of the people brāhmaṇa, brain. They can guide. It is not that everyone requires; neither it is possible. Unless one is very intelligent, he cannot become brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of the society. That is brāhmaṇa. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. These are the brāhmaṇa's qualification. He must be truthful, so much so truthful that even to his enemy he will not keep any secret. That is called truthfulness. And śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the senses. Damaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the mind. Mind is our enemy; mind is our friend. So if we can control the mind, the mind can act as very good friend. And if we do not control the mind, then he acts as enemy. Therefore the yoga system means controlling the mind, controlling the senses so they can act as my friend. Otherwise they will act as my enemy. Kāma krodha lobha moha.

So there is necessity of a class of men who will act as the brain of the society. That is called brāhmaṇa. That is real human society, where there are four classes of men: one acting as brain, one acting as arms or armies or protection, one acting as belly, or the food digesting machine… Unless you eat and digest food, how your body will be maintained? So everything is very scientifically designed in the Vedic civilization. So in the Kali-yuga there is scarcity of brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa is vairāgya. A brāhmaṇa is not interested with pounds, shilling, pence, "Get money and enjoy." That is not brāhmaṇa's business. What us enjoyment? That is illusion. You cannot enjoy because you are conditioned by the stringent laws of nature, and where is enjoyment? There is no enjoyment. But they are thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called illusion, māyā. There cannot be any enjoyment. When you are not free, when you are conditioned under the stringent laws of… You do not like to die. You are forced to die. You must die. You cannot say, "No, I will not die." No, that is not possible. So where is your freedom? But we are declaring, "Now we are independent." This is all illusion.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared to save us from all these illusions. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya means living, not dead. If we have no spiritual consciousness, if we have not Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, then we are dead. This, what is this body? This body is dead. Alive or dead, so-called dead, it is already dead because it is matter. But because there is spirit soul, it is moving. The same example: the motor car, what is this? A lump of matter, some iron, some other metals or some rubbers and combination. And so long the driver is there-it is moving-it is important so long it is moving. And as soon as the movement stops, you throw it away. That is very good experience in your country. So many useless motor cars are heaped together. So similarly, the brāhmaṇa means one must know that who is the driver of this body, brahma-jñāna. So at the present moment nobody knows who is driving this body. So therefore all śūdras, fourth-class men. There is no first-class man. But in the human society there must be four classes of men: first class, second class, third class… Fourth class also required for assisting the higher, third class. Everything is very nicely described in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā was taught by Kṛṣṇa Himself. But people could not follow Him, misunderstood Him. Therefore Kṛṣṇa again came as Kṛṣṇa-caitanya to teach personally the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not teach anything else than what was taught by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya said, vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam śikṣārtham, purāṇah puruṣaḥ. That Supreme Personality of Godhead… Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogaṁ śikṣārtham ekaḥ purāṇaḥ puruṣaḥ [Cc. Madhya 6.254], śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-śarīra-dhārī: "Now You have assumed the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa-caitanya, but You are Kṛṣṇa.'' That is also…, Rūpa Gosvāmī said. We have to follow the mahājanas, great personality, authorities. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We cannot manufacture a way of life. We have to follow the footprints of mahājana, great personalities. That is the way. Here, at the present moment, everyone is speculating. What is the use of speculation? You are imperfect. Your senses are imperfect. Whatever you establish, because you have established by imperfect senses, they are all imperfect. Therefore, that suffering, there is no solution. So speculative method will not help us. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is It is not as He had manufactured something. He is also following. He quoted one verse from the prayers of Lord Brahmā.

jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva

(jīvanti) san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām

sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir

ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām

This is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in Brahma's prayer to Kṛṣṇa. The purport is that you should give up this bad habit of speculation. Jñāne prayāsam. Prayāsam means endeavor: "I shall get this knowledge by speculating." This is called jñāna-prayāsam, endeavoring uselessly for knowledge. So udapāsya. You give it up. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta. Just become submissive. Don't think yourself that you are very learned. Because if the senses are imperfect, how you can be learned? Whatever you see, that is imperfect. Just like we see every day the sun, these eyes. And what we see? It is just like a disc. Is it a disc? It is fourteen hundred times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see what is behind the wall. Still, you are proud of seeing-"Can you show me? Can you show me God?" And what power you have got to see? That he does not consider. He thinks, "I have got seeing power." Similarly, you study every sense-they are all imperfect, blunt. So any knowledge you acquire by gymnastic of the senses-useless. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. Not Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, it is the Bhāgavata's teaching and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's the same. So we have to give up this nonsense idea, that "I can attain to the perfect knowledge by speculation, manodharma, by speculation, manodharma, mental gymnastic." This will not help us.

So jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. Just become submissive. And where to submit? You must submit to a perfect person. Otherwise why should you submit? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. So Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa also says,

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninaḥ tattva-darśinaḥ

[Bg. 4.34]

Tattva-darśī, one who has seen the things as it is. Go there and from him take the knowledge, not that one who is speculating. This is the process, Vedic process. Therefore it is called śruti. Śravaṇam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Śravaṇam means hearing, kīrtanam means glorifying. Of whom? About Viṣṇu, not for anything else. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this point. When He was talking with Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya, Rāmānanda Rāya suggested various methods of self-realization. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not reject them. He said, "Yes, it is also nice, but you go farther above. Go forward still." So in this way, when Rāmānanda Rāya quoted this verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya, He said… No, in the beginning He had, eho bāhya, āge kaha: "This process is not very important; it is external. If you know better than this, say." So in this way, after many rejections, when Rāmānanda Rāya came to this version, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not say that it is useless. Eho haya: "Yes, it is nice." Eho haya: "It can be accepted." That is the beginning, that don't try to speculate. Just become humble and meek and hear from the realized soul. Namanta. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Do not think that you know by everything. That is your illusion, māyā. Because you cannot know everything. You can, you may know something. That is not possible that you know everything.

So to know everything perfectly you cannot do it simply by speculating or handling your senses, imperfect senses. San-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. You hear from the realized soul. So Kṛṣṇa, hear from Kṛṣṇa. That is He is perfect. And sthāne sthitāḥ. To hear about Kṛṣṇa, you do not require to change your position. Sthāne sthitāḥ. You are medical man? That's all right. Remain medical man. You are scientist? That's all right. You are lawyer? That's all right. You are fool? That's all right. (laughter) Because everyone is fool, but they are divided by mental concoction that "Here is a fool; here is a learned.'' Because the learned is also a fool. But by mental concoction, he is recognized as intelligent. Same mental concoction. Dvaite' bhadrābhadra sakali samana. Caitanya-caritāmṛta kar said that "In the material world, this is good; and this is bad-this is all mental speculation.'' Dvaite' bhadrābhadra sakali samana, ei bhāla, ei manda', saba manodharma: "That division, 'This is good; this is bad,' it is mental speculation.'' It has no value. It has no value. So this mental speculation will not help us. And therefore sthāne sthitāḥ. You remain in your position. It doesn't matter, good or bad. The mental speculator's verdict that "This is good; this is bad. This is intelligent; this is fool,'' they are all mental speculation. That will not help.

So you remain in your position. Either in good or bad, it doesn't matter. But you do one thing. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You use your ear. That ear is bestowed upon everyone, either fool or learned. So use that ear, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, and hear attentively, and mold your life as you hear from the realized soul. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-mano. One who remains like this, although he is imperfect fool, whatever he may be, he can conquer the ajita. Ajita means God. Nobody can conquer Him, but a devotee who sincerely hears about Him from the realized soul, he can conquer even Ajita, Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. The gopīs were women and not very high class woman, cowherd's men, in the village, not in town, very educated, high society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, no. They all belonged to vaiśya class. And they were woman, not Vedantist, not scholar. But they conquered Kṛṣṇa. Why? And that is this They heard about Kṛṣṇa, and they became lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is required. So that is the real qualification. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so strict about womanly association. Still, He recommended, ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargabhir yā kalpitā: "There is no better type of worshiping Kṛṣṇa than the system which vraja-vadhū, the gopīs, adopted to love Kṛṣṇa. That is the first-class.'' That is the recommendation of Vedic śāstra. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. First-class religion Religion means to understand God. That is the sum and substance.

The process may be different according to country, men. Just like we worship the Deity in the temple. This is also bhakti. And the Christians go to the church and offers prayer to God. That is also bhakti. That is also bhakti. Nine items of bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam [SB 7.5.23]. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanam vandanam. Vandanam is offering prayer. So they go to the church or go to the mosque, they offer prayers to the Supreme. That is also bhakti. So there is no question of what type of religion you are following. That doesn't matter. You follow anything, whatever suits you. But the result should be that. You worship with the result. The result is how to love God. That should be the result. If you have come to that platform, how to love God, mad after God, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu…

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda-viraheṇa me

Govinda-viraheṇa: "Being separated from Govinda, God, my life is vacant." This is required. It doesn't matter whether you follow Christianity or Hinduism or Muslimism. Whether you are feeling vacancy, everything vacant without Kṛṣṇa, without God-that is the test. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. Every moment… Because one who is feeling separation from the Lord, he is feeling also, "When I shall see Him?" So this anxiety, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa: "A moment is seeming to Me a millenium, hundreds and millions of years' separation." That is love. If you love somebody and if you… Of course, in the material world, this love is not possible. There is no love in the material world. It is all lust. So love means loving God. That is love. So the Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching this, yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam: "I am feeling one moment as a millenium, being separated from Kṛṣṇa. And the torrents of tears are coming just like torrents of rain.'' And śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam: "And the whole world is seeming to Me vacant,'' govinda-viraheṇa me, "being separated from Govinda.'' This is love. So it doesn't matter what religious system you are following, but the result should be this, that you should be mad after God. That is the test. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro… That is first-class religion, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, to love. Bhakti means love, service, rendering service. Adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje means beyond the speculation of mind, mental exercise, bodily exercise. Adhokṣaja. Adhakṛta akṣaja jñānam.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught this. And He took sannyāsa. For the benefit of the whole world, He took sannyāsa. He gave up His very opulent position in Navadvīpa, as I have told you, very learned scholar, very beautiful body, very beautiful wife, very affectionate mother, good popularity. There was no scarcity. And He was God Himself. Why there will be any scarcity? There is no question. But in spite of, He took sannyāsa for the benefit of the whole world. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu has come here in Atlanta. So you worship this Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana, They are very, very merciful, and little service will enhance your devotional service to a larger scale.

Thank you very much. (end)